[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Rekk]

Got a short tournament report for you degenerates. Top 8'd the January NELC with:

4 dark ritual
4 rite of flame
4 lion's eye diamond
4 lotus petal
3 chrome mox
4 infernal tutor
4 burning wish
1 ad nauseum
1 empty the warrens
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
3 duress
4 silence
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
2 misty rainforest
1 scalding tarn
4 gemstone mine
2 city of brass

SB
1 past in flames
1 ill gotten gains
1 time spiral
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 revoke existence
1 grapeshot
3 cabal therapy
3 abrupt decay
2 dark confidant

Matches:
Round 1 Jeremy Tibbets on stoneblade
Game 1: He goes t1 brainstorm, I play a misty. He plays a land, I play land, infernal tutor, it gets spell snared. He plays stoneforge mystic, gets batterskull. I play infernal tutor, get LED. Next turn I play silence, it gets FOW'd. I then play brainstorm, LED, LED, petal, petal, duress, burning wish, tendrils of agony.
Game 2: I keep probe, ponder, misty, city, RoFx2, dark rit. He goes land go. I probe, then city, then ponder, see infernal and burning wish. He plays karakas, go. I play ponder. I duress away a flusterstorm. I burning wish for cabal therapy, I know his hand is snapcaster x 2, force, spell pierce. I pass, then cabal therapy him, he plays snapcaster in response, targets flusterstorm in his yard. I name spell pierce. I then play another cabal therapy I drew, he flusterstorms (play mistake on my part). His turn, he plays sword and swings for two with snappy. My turn I play silence into RoFx2, dark ritual, infernal tutor, ad nauseum from 10 life, I stop at 1 with exactsies enough to kill him.
1-0

Round 2 Nicholas Herbs on burn
Game 1: he goes arid mesa into goblin guide. I probe into ponder on my turn. He attacks for two. I draw, go land, mox (ponder), petal, LED, wish, ETW. He suspends two rift bolts. I draw silence...on his upkeep I silence his rift bolts. yum.
Game 2: he goes goblin guide, attack. I ponder, then play mox (duress), duress. He casts lava spike. I infernal tutor for a lotus petal. He plays another goblin guide. I play LED into infernal tutor into Ad nauseum from 10, no mana floating, no land drop. Doesn't get there.
Game 3: I probe, his hand is fireblast, lava spike, and lands. I duress a lava spike away, next turn go infernal tutor for RoF, lotus petal, RoFx2, LED, ETW. It wins.
2-0

Round 3 Damon Whitby on dredge
Game 1: I go ponder, go. He plays a putrid imp. I have a turn 2 ad nauseum through a dark rit and a rite of flame.
Game 2: He mulls to 4, my hand is a turn 3 ad nauseum (2x rite of flames, lands, and ad nauseum). Unfortunately, he kills me on turn 2. Insane. His 4 carder was land, dredger, LED, something, and he drew a draw spell.
Game 3: I go t1 ponder, drop 2 LED's. He mulls to 5, but then explodes on turn 1 with LED and faithless looting and a dredger. He dredges infinite cards but doesnt hit a narc so he cant cast therapies. On my turn I play land, chrome mox, dark rit, burning wish, crack 2 LED's into time spiral, untap two lands, LED, LED, ponder, hit the tutor, lotus petal, rite of flame, infernal tutor, burning wish, tendrils.
3-0

Round 4 Jeremiah Rudolph on 12 post from here on out my notes suck cuz I lost motivation
Game 1: I time spiral, but I draw the ETW. I Empty for a lot, and upkeep silence him, but he cracks expedition map, gets glacial chasm, then has all the time in the world. Would've won if it had been a tendrils main, but what can you do.
Game 2: He taps out on turn 1, I duress on turn 1 see blue blast, brainstorm, he brainstorms in response, i see nothing of import so I ad nauseum. It gets there.
Game 3: He plays something turn 1, I probe and then ad nauseum turn 1 to get there.
4-0

Round 5 Nick on Ad nauseum tendrils
Game 1: He has a bunch of rituals but no disruption or tutor. I have an early ad nauseum.
Game 2: He plays turn 1 dark ritual, cabal therapy (miss), dark confidant. He draws a million disruption spells, then past in flames me for the kill. At the last turn, He cast cabal therapy and I could've silenced in response, which I should have (wasn't expecting to die on the spot), and he named silence. Still learning with this deck!
Game 3: We both have early bobs, but I have a silence that prevents him from going off. Bob draws me a lot of cards. We attack each other with bobs, but I don't trade because I can't find a tutor. I get low on life, but I finally find a tutor at 8 life. I cast dark ritual, dark ritual, dark ritual, rite of flame, burning wish, past in flames, recast rituals, infernal tutor, burning wish, tendrils.
5-0

Round 6 ID

Round 7 against Blayne Gibbons on hypergenesis
Game 1: He gives me infinite time, doesn't do anything. His hand has all hypergenesis cascaders, no fatties. He forces an infernal tutor, then I ad nauseum and kill him next turn.
Game 2: I keep a slow hand, duress away a show and tell. He draws another, puts emrakul into play. I don't have it the next turn.
Game 3: He starts with a leyline in play. He then show and tells griselbrand into play. I go off, he draws 14 cards, but can't find a force of will. My ad naseum isn't enough to both cast revoke existence and grapeshot him. I lose. Would've appreciated those chain of vapors I skimped on here.
5-1-1

Round 1 of top 8 against James Rynk on Jund
Game 1: I mull to 5, he rips my hand apart.
Game 2: My hand is probe, mox, duress, dark ritual x3, infernal tutor. I probe into a lotus petal, and ad nauseum into a win.
Game 3: He rips my hand apart. I was one short of casting burning wish into time spiral at one point, and it would've translated into a diminishing returns with one floating (20%ish win percentage). Diminishing returns would've been marginally better here, but I don't think casting it and passing the turn and hoping he didn't have a discard spell (3 duress, 4 thoughtseize, 4 hymn) would've won.

I end up with more Bayous. I think the dark confidant experiment is over and I am going back to chain of vapors. I did more testing against discard heavy matchups (jund), and concluded that leaving in silences is better than boarding in therapies. Trading discard spells with them always results in me losing, as they operate much better on low resources, where as using silence to stall and get extra setup turns ends up with a higher win percentage. This is out of maybe 6 or so games. Going to be doing a lot more testing this week on whether or not keeping silence in is right in these matchups.


In your top 8 game (game 2 i believe) you kept what i believe was 3 lands 2 tutors and something ( a very slow hand). if you remember what the hand was could you explain why you kept it. It looked like a do nothing hand to me.

(Nick, round 5 tendrils player)

[jandax]

What do you guys use as goblin tokens? Beta Mons's Goblin Raiders for me.

http://i.imgur.com/sACYoGK.jpg

[egosum]

I think this is better suited in the Pimp/Brag post in the general board (since this one must be to talk about the deck strategy/doubts/developement). But anyway, your Beta Gobbos look sweet! I use simply dices (pretty functional).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Endure2004]

In your top 8 game (game 2 i believe) you kept what i believe was 3 lands 2 tutors and something ( a very slow hand). if you remember what the hand was could you explain why you kept it. It looked like a do nothing hand to me.

(Nick, round 5 tendrils player)

Game 2 I kept 3x dark ritual, IT, chrome mox, duress, probe and I killed him on turn 1. Game 1 I mulled to 5 and game 3 I kept a good hand but he had t1 disruption t2 disruption...

Regarding time spiral, you all can make fun of me all you want, I'm going to keep playing it until I think it's worse than DR. I have confidence that I am open minded and can judge my decisions impartially, and I'll be the first to admit if I was wrong on something. I have done a lot of testing and time spiral has been better for me. I believe that a lot of people here are resistant to change just because it is change. I admit that I have made plenty of tweaks to the deck that I now believe to be wrong (dark confidants, playing around with the land count, etc.). I don't believe I am stubborn or ignorant at all, and I truly try to take into account and understand everyone's argument. People are just more interested in taking a side and proving themselves right than actually figuring out what the best decision is. As such, I've given up actually trying to convince anyone, because no one will actually listen and they will immediately jump to point out how bad it is in this situation or that situation.

[thefringthing]

@jandax: I have a stack of 20 Unglued Goblin tokens.

[Megadeus]

Game 2 I kept 3x dark ritual, IT, chrome mox, duress, probe and I killed him on turn 1. Game 1 I mulled to 5 and game 3 I kept a good hand but he had t1 disruption t2 disruption...

Regarding time spiral, you all can make fun of me all you want, I'm going to keep playing it until I think it's worse than DR. I have confidence that I am open minded and can judge my decisions impartially, and I'll be the first to admit if I was wrong on something. I have done a lot of testing and time spiral has been better for me. I believe that a lot of people here are resistant to change just because it is change. I admit that I have made plenty of tweaks to the deck that I now believe to be wrong (dark confidants, playing around with the land count, etc.). I don't believe I am stubborn or ignorant at all, and I truly try to take into account and understand everyone's argument. People are just more interested in taking a side and proving themselves right than actually figuring out what the best decision is. As such, I've given up actually trying to convince anyone, because no one will actually listen and they will immediately jump to point out how bad it is in this situation or that situation.

I could see why Time Spiral is good. I mean it's untap ability is insane. I just feel like 6 mana after a wish is difficult to achieve. Especially since a lot of the time I cast Returns it is to restock for a new hand because the one I had didnt turn out to be good enough. Or couldnt make quite enough mana. Ill give it a spin sometime though. I honestly haven't tested it. Maybe Ill do a few games tonight.

[Bryant Cook]

SCG Edison is coming up, I'm really looking forward to storming again soon.

[maritlage]

going stir crazy waiting for scg edison its in my backyard

[Koby]

SCG Edison is coming up, I'm really looking forward to storming again soon.

FWIW, I've tried my own tweaks to the 75 posted in the OP, and slowly 1 card at a time have returned to the sideboard you posted. There have been too many times I needed BW to save me from certain corner case scenarios. Karakas, while really good vs Maverick & Reanimator, isn't really needed if this metagame keep up it's 3c UG/x shenanigans.

Good luck there. 5c Goblins FTW.

[Yuri8]

I have a little question about gitaxian probe. Little background: I was facing some BW blade (expecting direct discard) and had probe in hand. Didn't thought much about it and used it drawing dark ritual. Opponent used IoK next turn discarding this ritual which should win me this game since I had Ad nauseum already in hand (game was big fiaco with me not being albe to draw another mana source for 5 or 6 turns). So would you use gitaxian probe in first turn in this situation and overall in these matchups where drawing into valuable card could mean it being discarded right away?

[Megadeus]

Ill be storming at SCG ATL Next weekend. It will be my first large event. Lets hope I dont scrub out!

As for Probe, you probably dont need to probe T1 unless you are looking for something for either Therapy to take Post board or you are one card away from just going off.

You dont need to use it to see what your opponent is playing on T1 because their land drop and/or T1 play should be enough to tip you off.

[Asthereal]

Edit: what the hell was my post doing in this thread??? I am absolutely sure I posted it in the thread about bannings in Modern. This forum gets more buggy every second... So to all who read my post: apologies. I'll just leave it at that, because no one knows where it'll end up next if I try to repost it. :eyebrow:

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

WotC didn't ban Tendrils of Agony.

Life goes on.

[Megadeus]

WOTC should never ban Tendrils... If they really hate this deck type they would probably go for Ad Nauseum first. The card that draws a thrid of our deck is the real bad one!

[Asthereal]

He responded cynically to my post which should have been in a thread about Modern bannings. No worries. :wink:

[jandax]

I know it's not relevant to threat topic, but should Tendrils of Agony get the hammer, I'd bed JTMS would become a 200USD/euro card.

Anyways, on topic:

Does anyone here have experience getting new players to the game interested into Legacy? More precisely, is there a way to explain and or demonstrate the power of this deck without leaving the impression that all combo decks are busted and there's no fun in the format? Let's be fair and say this is one of the hardest decks to play correctly. Should the OP just take over? Just looking for some advice, I'm trying to get a couple friends interested in the format.

[Asthereal]

Tendrils will never get the hammer. Ad Nauseam and Lion's Eye Diamond are the candidates for banning when Wizards feels the power of Storm is getting out of control.

It's hard to make newbies enthousiastic about Legacy without scaring them away. Especially if you use a deck like this. I don't think I have proper advise on that. :tongue:

[Megadeus]

I used to show them Maverick and tell them that a hate bear deck is good...

[Squirrel]

I know it's not relevant to threat topic, but should Tendrils of Agony get the hammer, I'd bed JTMS would become a 200USD/euro card.

Anyways, on topic:

Does anyone here have experience getting new players to the game interested into Legacy? More precisely, is there a way to explain and or demonstrate the power of this deck without leaving the impression that all combo decks are busted and there's no fun in the format? Let's be fair and say this is one of the hardest decks to play correctly. Should the OP just take over? Just looking for some advice, I'm trying to get a couple friends interested in the format.

I would not start with any specific deck. the best way is probably working through as many decks as possible with them. Dont start with dredge, tes, si and show and tell to impress. start first with nonblue decks, like maverick and burn, mud, then show them control, and at the end show them combo. wenn they say its broken then you can respond remembering them about fow and counterbalance. if you start with combo, the have no idea how to stop it ("you even go off before i have 3 mana for cancel") and you cant tell them the other side. its very hard getting someone into legacy..

[sconnell]

Does anyone here have experience getting new players to the game interested into Legacy? More precisely, is there a way to explain and or demonstrate the power of this deck without leaving the impression that all combo decks are busted and there's no fun in the format? Let's be fair and say this is one of the hardest decks to play correctly. Should the OP just take over? Just looking for some advice, I'm trying to get a couple friends interested in the format.

I'd think about what they do and don't like about magic, and try and think of aspects of Legacy that appeal those likes and dislikes.
If they like constructed but have trouble keeping up with rotations, stress that Legacy is an eternal format.
Being able to make up and hone one deck over a long period of time really appeals to some people. If that doesn't appeal, you can stress the depth of the card pool for Legacy and the number of different viable decks.
One selling point for Legacy for some new players is that you get to play with powerful old cards that would never get printed now. This especially appeals to players who like spells rather than creatures, since Legacy is a much more spell-based format than standard. If they have a favourite deck in standard, you can point them towards a similar Legacy deck - or perhaps just specific cards.

[thefringthing]

So would you use gitaxian probe in first turn in this situation and overall in these matchups where drawing into valuable card could mean it being discarded right away?Try to cast Git Probe only when the information you get is going to be important to you that turn, otherwise save it. I don't think I would Git Probe Deadguy on turn one in general if I'm on the play. On the draw, you might want to know whether you're getting Hymned or not.

[Megadeus]

Im putting together a list of likely hate cards that I may see this weekend out of each respective deck. Anyone know some of the weirder ones? For example when I cabal Therapy in G2's against:

Maverick: Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddock Teeg, Thalia
Junk: More of the same, maybe naming Hymn to Tourach from time to time.
Goblins: Thorn of Amethyst?
Elves: Teeg, Maybe Thalia, Thorn of Amethyst as well?
MUD: Chalice otV, Trinisphere.
Jund: I have no clue what they bring in. Mindbreak Trap?

I guess Elves sometimes also plays MB Trap. And Burn plays it sometimes as well. Is there anything specific to look for in some of the builds that may tip me off in G1 to know what sort of hate they may have?

[sconnell]

Burn, and perhaps Goblins, might have Pyrostatic Pillar

[Zombie]

Elves has been playing Therapy lately. Nic Fit, if you see any, will bring Therapy, obviously. The Rector versions pack a hilarious sucker punch from the side in the form of Nether Void.

[Yuri8]

Maverick: Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddock Teeg, Thalia
Goblins: Thorn of Amethyst?
Elves: Teeg, Maybe Thalia, Thorn of Amethyst as well?


Lot of goblin players splash white thalia (even maindeck) so keep this in mind and chalice of the void might be iin place of thorn of amethyst (at least most of goblin players here on source play CotV).
As for elves, they mostly play only one gaddock in sideboard so I would name green sun zenith. Same goes for maverick, better to name zenith than gaddock, but thalia is in this deck too, so it is kind of lottery without probe...

[Koby]

Lot of goblin players splash white thalia (even maindeck) so keep this in mind and chalice of the void might be iin place of thorn of amethyst (at least most of goblin players here on source play CotV).
As for elves, they mostly play only one gaddock in sideboard so I would name green sun zenith. Same goes for maverick, better to name zenith than gaddock, but thalia is in this deck too, so it is kind of lottery without probe...

Suppose you're on the draw vs Maverick, and they open with Hierarch -- I would name GSZ with Therapy blind. If they don't, then name Thalia.

[Megadeus]

I knew Nif Fit did Nether void but we cant do too much against it... name rector I guess.

[Megadeus]

Double Post? Dont care. Went 4-0 at the legacy challenge today at the open. I know. Big Whoop.

Beat High Tide Round 1. Game three I blind therapied his flusterstorm out of his hand and go off.

Round 2 I played against affinity. Apparently he cant beat Goblins :p. I did end up making goblins then next turn grapeshotting his Vault Skirge before he hooked it up with cranial... I think it was wrong, but I won anyway.

Round 3 I played against elves. I punt so hard G1 when I realized Im a red mana short of an IGG loop. I die after Ad Nauseum flips Empty :/ Beat him 2 with 14 dudes T1 and G3 Tendrils gets there.

Round 4 Im late because my buddies were dicking around with my deck and I wasnt paying attention to the round beginning. I quickly run over but get a game loss :/ G2 I play first. Make 12 dudes on T1 after a probe reveals Elves again. G3 I keep a mana heavy hand with no tutor and just a ponder. He Seizes my ponder :/ I proceed to draw ponder, and then rip another one. A few turns later after he has glimpsed and whiffed he green suns for 2. Gets Visionary over Gaddock Teeg (Thank you Magic Gods!!). But he will kill me next turn. I have triple Rite of Flame Dark Ritual and an LED on the field. Rip Burning Wish like a Champ. Make a ton of mana, Wish for DReturns, it hits a burning wish. I go nuts and kill him.

[thefringthing]

Trolling casuals in the "Just For Fun" room.

http://i.imgur.com/mU5nwky.jpg

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

There's a storm list from the Legacy MOCS, which played the following manabase:

3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Island

Thought I'd bounce that around. Deck construction shows the list is closer to TNT/ANT. Noticeable differences from the main deck include:

4 Cabal Ritual
3 Silence
2 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
2 Preordain
1 Past in Flames
1 Personal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony

Yeah, I realize most of these cards are absolute shit in the main. The lack of Burning Wish is interesting. The mana can 'apparently' support Abrupt Decay out of the board, but can't handle Burning Wish (which accounts for the typical ANT-style board). Puzzling for sure.

Thoughts?

15 Sideboard
4 Dark Confidant
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Ignorant Bliss
2 Karakas
1 Paraselene
1 Slaughter Pact

[Vandalize]

There's a storm list from the Legacy MOCS, which played the following manabase:

3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Island

Thought I'd bounce that around. Deck construction shows the list is closer to TNT/ANT. Noticeable differences from the main deck include:

4 Cabal Ritual
3 Silence
2 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
2 Preordain
1 Past in Flames
1 Personal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony

Yeah, I realize most of these cards are absolute shit in the main. The lack of Burning Wish is interesting. The mana can 'apparently' support Abrupt Decay out of the board, but can't handle Burning Wish (which accounts for the typical ANT-style board). Puzzling for sure.

Thoughts?

15 Sideboard
4 Dark Confidant
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Ignorant Bliss
2 Karakas
1 Paraselene
1 Slaughter Pact

Well, looks like a mess, but who knows? Caleb Duward decks are also a mess and they work.

[Machahiko]

Ignorant Bliss seems like a card that nobody would know about AND it has art by Jeff Miracola, yes please! Ordered 4 foils immediately since they were so cheap and the art is amazing. On the other hand I don't really know can these even be played, if you play the current style sideboard. I just feel that there's maybe one slot that could be changed, everything other is just fine. I would really appreciate it if you could post the whole decklist, instead of just odd bits, sb and lands.

[jandax]

@Bryant/Thread:

Regarding the OP matchup analysis on Goblins (or other fast aggro); OP suggests holding lands to avoid mana disruption like Rishadan Port and Wasteland and cantriping. While the first part is logical, the whole cantriping idea implies that one keeps a hand with mana and blue spells because the blue spells will find business with which to go off. In practice, this is slow. Zoo and U/R Delver decks, for example, have burn for reach and Goblins cheats its army onto the table, all providing an ever shrinking window for the Big Turn. Maybe I'm missing something and maybe some of you can chime in on the subject. It just doesn't seem like the matchups are as close to byes as the OP suggests.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

@Bryant/Thread:

Regarding the OP matchup analysis on Goblins (or other fast aggro); OP suggests holding lands to avoid mana disruption like Rishadan Port and Wasteland and cantriping. While the first part is logical, the whole cantriping idea implies that one keeps a hand with mana and blue spells because the blue spells will find business with which to go off. In practice, this is slow. Zoo and U/R Delver decks, for example, have burn for reach and Goblins cheats its army onto the table, all providing an ever shrinking window for the Big Turn. Maybe I'm missing something and maybe some of you can chime in on the subject. It just doesn't seem like the matchups are as close to byes as the OP suggests.

Sometimes there are turns where there's no reason to play a land because when you need the color, it'll just get eaten by Wasteland or tapped during your upkeep with Rishadan Port. Ideally, you'll know the top cards of your library when you hold lands (so not to interfere with Hellbent, but LED fixes this anyway).

I've had opponents randomly do things like tap out for threats or blow Engineered Explosives for an irrelevant number when they thought I was stumbling on lands. There's that, too.

(This is to clarify for other people. I know this wasn't your question.)

For mana-heavy hands with cantrips, I consider those strong keeps versus fast aggro because you have nine business spells to draw from in your main deck. Ponder searches four cards and Brainstorm shows you three, so there's a good chance you'll find what you need. Against those aggro decks your life total doesn't matter as much because it's easier to set up an Iggy-loop or Past in Flames.

Mana plus cantrips is usually infinitely better than a mulligan.

[jin]

This just occurred to me. If Karakas was ever considered in the SB vs hate bears, would anyone consider Boseiju as SB versus blue control decks? Is it necessary? Not really. Is it an extra option, maybe? Discuss.

[Koby]

This just occurred to me. If Karakas was ever considered in the SB vs hate bears, would anyone consider Boseiju as SB versus blue control decks? Is it necessary? Not really. Is it an extra option, maybe? Discuss.

The former is a zero mana answer to cards that prevent us from winning.
The latter costs us a turn, 2 life, and can only cast 9 spells in the deck.

[Dark Ritual]

This just occurred to me. If Karakas was ever considered in the SB vs hate bears, would anyone consider Boseiju as SB versus blue control decks? Is it necessary? Not really. Is it an extra option, maybe? Discuss.

It's terrible because let's say you use boseiju on infernal tutor. They counter the ad nauseam. If you don't use the mana on infernal tutor and they see an untapped boseiju they just counter the tutor. It literally works just when you draw the 1 of ad nauseam or if you want to try to win with goblins against a deck with board sweepers to kill said goblins if the control player is at all decent. I wouldn't waste sideboard space on boseiju at all. There's also wasteland in control decks usually and you just look stupid when they wasteland your EtB tapped land.

[Machahiko]

If you could make your silence/chant uncounterable it would be good and most likely banned. Dark Ritual said everything just perfectly.

[jandax]

Sometimes there are turns where there's no reason to play a land because when you need the color, it'll just get eaten by Wasteland or tapped during your upkeep with Rishadan Port. Ideally, you'll know the top cards of your library when you hold lands (so not to interfere with Hellbent, but LED fixes this anyway).

I've had opponents randomly do things like tap out for threats or blow Engineered Explosives for an irrelevant number when they thought I was stumbling on lands. There's that, too.

(This is to clarify for other people. I know this wasn't your question.)

For mana-heavy hands with cantrips, I consider those strong keeps versus fast aggro because you have nine business spells to draw from in your main deck. Ponder searches four cards and Brainstorm shows you three, so there's a good chance you'll find what you need. Against those aggro decks your life total doesn't matter as much because it's easier to set up an Iggy-loop or Past in Flames.

Mana plus cantrips is usually infinitely better than a mulligan.

This is all relevant. I have the same sentiment, but maybe my draws during these games were just bad due to variance. I mean, one fifth of the deck sorts through the rest of it. Odds are good but sometimes they just don't pan out in your favor. Good line about the holding land. Never thought about it like that, from the other side of the table's perspective.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

This is all relevant. I have the same sentiment, but maybe my draws during these games were just bad due to variance. I mean, one fifth of the deck sorts through the rest of it. Odds are good but sometimes they just don't pan out in your favor. Good line about the holding land. Never thought about it like that, from the other side of the table's perspective.

Probably variance. The deck can just shit on itself sometimes.

[jin]

It's terrible because let's say you use boseiju on infernal tutor. They counter the ad nauseam. If you don't use the mana on infernal tutor and they see an untapped boseiju they just counter the tutor. It literally works just when you draw the 1 of ad nauseam or if you want to try to win with goblins against a deck with board sweepers to kill said goblins if the control player is at all decent. I wouldn't waste sideboard space on boseiju at all. There's also wasteland in control decks usually and you just look stupid when they wasteland your EtB tapped land.

Good call. I was actually thinking it's for a tutor into the tendrils.. or for the diminishing returns. It was just a random thought, but the post previous to yours made a good point that it can only be used on one spell, the tutor or the engine..


The former is a zero mana answer to cards that prevent us from winning.
The latter costs us a turn, 2 life, and can only cast 9 spells in the deck.

which makes sense. Nevermind.


Im putting together a list of likely hate cards that I may see this weekend out of each respective deck. Anyone know some of the weirder ones? For example when I cabal Therapy in G2's against:

Maverick: Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddock Teeg, Thalia
Junk: More of the same, maybe naming Hymn to Tourach from time to time.
Goblins: Thorn of Amethyst?
Elves: Teeg, Maybe Thalia, Thorn of Amethyst as well?
MUD: Chalice otV, Trinisphere.
Jund: I have no clue what they bring in. Mindbreak Trap?

I guess Elves sometimes also plays MB Trap. And Burn plays it sometimes as well. Is there anything specific to look for in some of the builds that may tip me off in G1 to know what sort of hate they may have?

Jund brings in Slaughter Games, Cabal Therapy, Duress, Hymn to Tourach, Surgical Extraction, or Red Elemental Blast. Other cards that might be relevant are Chalice of the Void, a fast clock, Price of Progress, or other graveyard hate.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

On fair decks...

The best way to combat fair decks?

Practice winning the die roll, and win on turn one more.

[Waikiki]

Played in a 35 man tournament last saturday. Using the list with maindeck empty the warrens over tendrils. It did work against the different BUG decks.

matchups:

2-1 BUG
2-1 Gatecrash combo ( I dont know the name of this hermit druid deck. TIP win die-roll)
0-2 S&T (slap myself for not able to count)
2-0 BUG
2-0 Goblins
ID Maverick

top8
2-1 Gatecrash combo (winning cause allowed to start once again!)

Top-4 split.

The amounth of T1 kills really surprised me alot. ETW was great.

[jandax]

^^You were at Rudy's too? Played TES as well, but with a hangover.

[Lans89]

I'll join this Dutch party ^^!

Next time I will just counter the ritual (after a probe --> petal --> brainstorm --> gemstone mine (showing that you rly had to go off that turn (no shit sherlock)) when I know that Griselband will close the game on my next turn ;)! That was a mistake i'm not supposed to make.. You won't have counting issues then :tongue:! Btw, 4 Fow, 3 Pierce, 2 Flusterstorm (also 3 REB and 2 misdirection), a fast Griselbrand and ofc 4 Leyline of Sanctity is not that easy for TES. Allthough I tend to win with ANT aswell when testing vs Sneaky Show (2-1 most of the time)..

Anyway; both top 4 ftw!

[Megadeus]

I played at SCG ATL yesterday... Overall a giant disappointment after finishing undefeated in the challenge (Especially when I saw most of my challenge opponents at top tables for the Open).

Round 1 Affinity

It was a local so I knew what he was on. I kill him T1. Game 2 I keep a sketchy no lander, but if it gets there he is dead. It doesnt get there. G3 I kill him on T2.

1-0

Round 2 Merfolk

I've never played this MU before. G1 I Silence him and he has no force I kill him. G2 he has curse catchers and all kind of taxing counters. I go for a rite of flame and he draw the spell pierce... G3 I durress and take his Spell Pierce. Next turn I go to go off. He drew the force :/ This was the Merfolk guy who Top 8'd.

1-1

Round 3 Esper Stoneblade.

G1 I see a bunch of discard after a probe. He dies. G2 He draws a bucnh of discard andf counters an throws down a Geist of Saint Traft and I die. G3 he keeps a no lander. I start durressing and taking his counters. Around T4 he draws a land finally. A Plains. LOL. He dies.

2-1

Round 4 SHardless BUG

This was a very VERY frustrating match. Around T4 I make 18 Goblins. He fires off his Ancestral he suspended on T1, then a Brainstorm. He draws his 1-of Mainboard Pernicious Deed. Game 2 I take his only relevant spell, I hide my Infernal Tutor on top of my deck and let him take my Burning Wish with his thoughtseize, then I Ad Nauseum from 19 life. I dont get there. I draw a bunch of brainstorms and Ponders and Probes and stop at 4 life, assuming my deck will bail me out. I cast 4 Brainstorms/Ponders and dont see shit. Pass at 2 life. Next turn I brainstorm. Dont see shit. Cast Ponder. Dont see anything. I die next turn. God if this was not the most frustrating thing to happen.... I was tilted after that...

2-2

Round 5 Burn

He mentions he has never played legacy before so I just put him on Burn or Affinity. I T1 Ponder setting up. He goes Goblin Guide Attack. Next Turn he dies. G2 He T1 Guides and I durress away a fireblast. Then he miracles Thunderous Wrath and then bolts me. Im at 8... I die. Game 3 I just dont draw anything and eventually die even after firing off a tendrils for 14. I probably kept hands I shouldnt have but losing to BUG the way that I did was horrid...

2-3 DROP

I know that this deck is much better than it performed for me and I realize that I DEFINITELY mis played against merfolk in round 2, but it is just an awful feeling to play perfectly AND draw the nuts and still lose like I did against BUG...

[Koby]

Ha! And you think I was kidding about how frustrating it was to play against Burn on my stream. GDI Budget Burn!

[Megadeus]

Ha! And you think I was kidding about how frustrating it was to play against Burn on my stream. GDI Budget Burn!

Burn is horrible to play against... Especially G2 or 3 and they have Mindbreak trap? Ewww....

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Burn is horrible to play against... Especially G2 or 3 and they have Mindbreak trap? Ewww....

How did you misplay? How did you board against the decks? What was your hand against Merfolk?

[Megadeus]

Against Folk I remember I had Empty the Warrens in hand and I could make around 14 Goblins and he had a curse catcher on board and I assumed he had Pierce in hand... I had 2 Rite of Flames and a Dark Ritual plus chrom Mox and something else... I played Rite of Flame, which Got Pierced, then I forgot about curse catcher and played dark Ritual which then got cursecatcher'd... So I blew 2 cards there. I just was so worried he would suddenly dump his hand and kill me that I forgot to just play my game. Like I said, I had never played against folk before so I wasn't prepared enough... I don't think I boarded at all against him, which may be wrong. I may have done a Therapy for an Infernal Tutor game 3 against him.

Against BUG I stayed the same deck. And Against Burn I think I didnt change anything as well. Against Burn I just wanted to keep my speed up. As for BUG I figured he would be boarding in FOW and other counters so I figured I was already set up to beat that.

My burn opponent also told me he was playing 2 mainboard Pyrostatic Pillars.... Man glad I dodged that bullet!

[jin]

Round 4 SHardless BUG

This was a very VERY frustrating match. Around T4 I make 18 Goblins. He fires off his Ancestral he suspended on T1, then a Brainstorm. He draws his 1-of Mainboard Pernicious Deed. Game 2 I take his only relevant spell, I hide my Infernal Tutor on top of my deck and let him take my Burning Wish with his thoughtseize, then I Ad Nauseum from 19 life. I dont get there. I draw a bunch of brainstorms and Ponders and Probes and stop at 4 life, assuming my deck will bail me out. I cast 4 Brainstorms/Ponders and dont see shit. Pass at 2 life. Next turn I brainstorm. Dont see shit. Cast Ponder. Dont see anything. I die next turn. God if this was not the most frustrating thing to happen.... I was tilted after that...


I know that this deck is much better than it performed for me and I realize that I DEFINITELY mis played against merfolk in round 2, but it is just an awful feeling to play perfectly AND draw the nuts and still lose like I did against BUG...

That's a shame, strong attempt. Don't give up!

I wouldn't blame it on the deck. Game 1, I wouldn't have 'all in'ed on ETW considering Shardless BUG rarely plays FOW maindeck. Game 2, you probably misplayed by only showing him BW. Given that I don't know your hand (assuming the rest is mana or protection), I would have shown him both tutors and let him pick. If he takes IT, BW could have easily won with DR or PiF. I think post-Ad Nauseam, you made another misplay by casting Brainstorm before Ponder. You would have dug deeper the other way around.

I think you might want some practice with this match up as well.

Regarding SB (if you are playing the OP list), you might consider boarding out an Infernal Tutor and a Ponder for 2x Cabal Therapy. It'll give you more protection from counter magic and streamlines the deck a bit more. Against Burns, boarding out the Silence is probably the correct play as they don't do much in that match up. Cabal Therapy or bounce can save you some damage.

[joemauer]

Game 2, you probably misplayed by only showing him BW. Given that I don't know your hand (assuming the rest is mana or protection), I would have shown him both tutors and let him pick. If he takes IT, BW could have easily won with DR or PiF.

I disagree. Letting the opponent only see Burning Wish causes that card's importance to sky rocket. Had there been two tutors the Thoughtseize may have taken a important mana spell instead.

Then again Burning Wish could have been hidden with Infernal Tutor in hand, going for Iggy or PiF, but it kind of hard to say without all the info.

[o13g]

Letting the opponent only see Burning Wish causes that card's importance to sky rocket.

Not after a brainstorm!

[Megadeus]

I disagree. Letting the opponent only see Burning Wish causes that card's importance to sky rocket. Had there been two tutors the Thoughtseize may have taken a important mana spell instead.

Then again Burning Wish could have been hidden with Infernal Tutor in hand, going for Iggy or PiF, but it kind of hard to say without all the info.my hand was some thing like LED, BW, dark ritual. I mean I was going to Ad Nauseum from 19 life. I figured winning was elementary. I guess not.

But yeah. I figure he would take wish in that scenario. He did what I thought he would do and what I wanted.

[joemauer]

my hand was some thing like LED, BW, dark ritual. I mean I was going to Ad Nauseum from 19 life. I figured winning was elementary. I guess not.

But yeah. I figure he would take wish in that scenario. He did what I thought he would do and what I wanted.

Assuming he took your Infernal Tutor, you could have gone Dark Rit>LED>B Wish>Iggy>Dark Rit>LED>Infernal Tutor>Empty the Warrens(or tendrils if you sided it in) for 16 tokens. With him at 18 from thoughtseize and going down to three cards from iggy would have been a solid play. Without the maindeck Tendrils, Ad Nauseum isn't always and auto win. Lots of times Ad Nauseum will lead to a big Empty which is what the above play would have been, but less risky.

[Megadeus]

Assuming he took your Infernal Tutor, you could have gone Dark Rit>LED>B Wish>Iggy>Dark Rit>LED>Infernal Tutor>Empty the Warrens(or tendrils if you sided it in) for 16 tokens. With him at 18 from thoughtseize and going down to three cards from iggy would have been a solid play. Without the maindeck Tendrils, Ad Nauseum isn't always and auto win. Lots of times Ad Nauseum will lead to a big Empty which is what the above play would have been, but less risky.

I guess I never stated it but he had a maelstrom pulse in hand. But after getting blown out by a timely pernicious deed I really was not excited to go for the goblins again. Plus that is the only time I have ever fizzled off of AdNauseum at such a high life total.

[jin]

Then again Burning Wish could have been hidden with Infernal Tutor in hand, going for Iggy or PiF, but it kind of hard to say without all the info.

Definitely.


my hand was some thing like LED, BW, dark ritual. I mean I was going to Ad Nauseum from 19 life. I figured winning was elementary. I guess not.

But yeah. I figure he would take wish in that scenario. He did what I thought he would do and what I wanted.

Yeah Ad Nauseam really isn't a sure win, espeically now that Tendrils is no longer in the main deck. If you knew he had maelstrom pulse, I wouldn't have gone Goblins either. It just sounds like you went off a little too early. YOu could have waited. It doesn't sound like he had any threats on the table to warrent a rushed Ad Nauseam.

[Machahiko]

I haven't seen a lot of people do this, if any at all, but I decided to go through storm hands articles and do the sample hands while writing down my thoughts. If you would do something differently or would not have done what I did in any circumstances, please tell me. I'm here to learn and become a better pilot. Played out each hand with the newest list and sideboard, deck was shuffled and cut to randomize what's on top. I'm on the play in each game. So, here we go:

Article 1

Opening Hand 1 – Brainstorm, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Chrome Mox, Infernal Tutor, Duress, Duress, and Lotus Petal.

Wouldn't call this a thrilling hand, but not really horrible either. No land and no sure kill, unless I rip a dark ritual from top of deck with brainstorm. I estimate that chance of finding dark ritual would be around 8%. I don't go for it, pass the turn.
Draw - Gemstone mine. Really nice draw, now I could just go for mox petal led tutor for 10 goblins. I decide to brainstorm. Brainstorm reveals Ponder, Rite of Flame and Dark Ritual. There's now either two lines of play, I either go for it now without protection or next turn with protection of Duress. Storm is at one after brainstorm. I put back Ponder and Duress. Play Chrome mox, imprint Duress. Play Lotus Petal, LED, Rite of Flame with Lotus Petal and dark ritual with chrome mox after rite has resolved. Storm is 6, RRBBB floating. Play Infernal Tutor and break LED for black. Search Ad Nauseam. Play Ad Nauseam, storm is at 8 and I leave one black mana floating. Ad nauseam reveals:

Silence 19
Dark Ritual 18
Infernal Tutor 16
Lotus Petal 16
Ponder 15
Probe 14
Duress 13
Silence 12
Brainstorm 11
Ponder 10
Ponder 9
Dark Ritual 8
Rite of Flame 7
LED 7
LED 7
Brainstorm 6
Rite of Flame 5

Play artifacts and rituals, inf tutor for bw and tendrils. If opponent is a dick you can also Past in Flames and grapeshot.

Opening Hand 2 – Underground Sea, Gemstone Mine, Duress, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Gitaxian Probe and another Gitaxian Probe.

Not so fast hand, but would keep against unknown opponent. Play gitaxian probe with life. Draw Chrome mox, meh. Play UGSea and pass. Draw fetchland. Play it and find volcanic, pass the turn. Draw brainstorm, play it with volcanic. Lion's Eye Diamond, Ad Nauseam and Burning Wish. Put Burning Wish, Ad Nauseam on top. Gemstone Mine, Chrome Mox imprint Infernal Tutor and play Duress. Play LED, Dark Ritual. Storm is now at 5 and BBB floating. Tap Gemstone Mine to play Gitaxian Probe, break LED for red. Draw Ad Nauseam and play it, leaving one R in pool, storm at 7 and life at 17. Ad Nauseam Reveals:

Burning Wish 15
Rite of Flame 14
Rite of Flame 13
Ponder 12
Dark Ritual 11
Rite of Flame 10
Chrome Mox 10
Infernal Tutor 8
Duress 7
Brainstorm 6
LED 6
Brainstorm 5
LED 5
Burning Wish 3

Again, pretty much do whatever you want.



Opening Hand 3 – Burning Wish, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Gemstone Mine, Polluted Delta, Ponder, and Brainstorm.

Definitely keep. Gemstoen mine brainstorm. Reveal Lotus Petal, city and Brainstorm. Put City and Burning Wish on top. Pass the turn, on my next turn draw Wish. Fetch Underground Sea. Play brainstorm off of Underground Sea. Draw Duress, Probe and Infernal Tutor. Put back Burning wish and Duress. Play Gitaxian Probe with life, play ponder from gemstone mine. Show burning wish, silence and brainstorm. No led, mox or lotus petal so I can't go off now, shuffle. Draw Gitaxian Probe. Go deep and play it with life! Draw Lotus Petal. I realize that my math was off I can't actually make goblins. Pass the turn in shame. Draw Silence. Play Silence, then Duress the opponent. Play Petal, Petal and both Dark Rituals. Play infernal tutor, search for Empty the Warrens, play it and throw 16 goblins on the board. Pray.

Next two draws would be Gemstone Mine, Gemstone Mine.

Article 2:

Opening Hand: Underground Sea, Lotus Petal, Empty the Warrens, Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, Ad Nauseam, and Dark Ritual

Drawing Dark Ritual would result in turn 1 AdN, Rite of Flame in turn 2 Nauseam. Keep. Play Sea and ponder. 2 Fetchlands and LED. We can keep these, play land on the next turn and Ad Nauseam. But I like to live dangerously, shuffle and draw it is. Draw Burning Wish. Pass the turn, draw Gemstone Mine. Gitaxian Probe with life, draw LED. Play Ad Nauseam tapping out. Storm is at 4, no mana floating and hand is EtW, Wish and LED, 18 life. Draw awesome cards and silence opponent, bwish IGG and go for the kill.

Opening Hand II: Lion’s Eye Diamond, Infernal Tutor, Lotus Petal, Ponder, Empty the Warrens, Silence, and Misty Rainforest

Keep. Fetch underground sea and play ponder. Silence, Chrome Mox and Brainstorm on top of deck. Shuffle, draw city. Pass the turn. Draw infernal tutor. Play city, infernal tutor revealing LED. Pass the turn, draw brainstorm. Play Silence, 17 life 1 storm. Lotus Petal, LED, LED play infernal tutor with sea and lotus petal. Break LED's and search for Ad Nauseam, play it and leave B in pool. Storm is at 6. Ad Nauseam reveals:

Ponder 16
Wish 14
Rite 13
Duress 12
Lotus 12
Silence 11
Probe 10
Brainstorm 9
Wish 7
Probe 6
Tutor 4
Rite 3
Mox 3
Petal 3
Duress 2

Play Gemstone Mine, petals, exile probe, play brainstorm. Nothing relevant, two lands to top of library. Break petal, play rites, RRRR in pool, burning wish for empty the warrens. Make lots of goblins and see if anyone actually reads this and asks why the hell I didn't just kill the opponent with tendrils. Because I wanted to see does anyone even read this.

Opening Hand III: Infernal Tutor, Ponder, Ponder, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Rite of Flame, and Chrome Mox

Double LED is always tempting, risky hand but let's have a go at it. Chrome mox, imprint ponder, play ponder and throw your hands in the air! See Infernal Tutor, Chrome Mox and Brainstorm. Turn 2 kill it should be. Draw brainstorm, pass the turn and draw mox. Play brainstorm. Find tutor, wish and wish. Put tutor, tutor back. Chrome mox imprint wish. Rite of flame. Play LED's and burning wish breaking LEDs. Get UUUBBB, search for diminishing returns and play it, leaving UB in pool. Storm at 7. Exile 10 cards, one burning wish exiled. Draw 7: Ponder, Probe, Probe, Sea, Volcanic, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor. Ponder, leaving B in pool. Ponder, Ad Nauseam and Lotus Petal. Get Ad Nauseam. Play probe with life, drawing lotus petal and play it. Play dark ritual, break petal and tap sea for mana, play Ad Nauseam. Storm is at 11 and life at 18.

Draw loads of cards:
Ponder 17
Rite 16
Tutor 14
EtW 10
Duress 9
LED 9
Probe 8
LED 8
Tutor 6
Duress 5
Rite 4
Silence 3
Ponder 2
Silence 1

Land played, no mana floating, one life remaining. One petal which could be played for rites, then go and make 20++ goblins. No Dark Ritual no Burning wish means there's no way of winning immediately. Make lots of goblins and pray they get there.



Here would be my samples of playing the "try these hands" in storm hands articles. Would be pretty awesome if someone would have the time / interest to create some sort of puzzles including TES. You have to win on this exact turn, your life total and board is told. Opponent's board is also told and his hand is told IF you somehow happen to see it. The top cards, or at least some of them should be known if you ponder/brainstorm and if you shuffle you would get new set of predefined cards. Would be a lot of work, and making a list of cards that you will see on top when you AdN would be a lot of work. I might try to make a puzzle for you guys later on today.

If Bryant is reading this, please do continue making Storm Hands -articles. Thank you.

[Megadeus]

I dont see the reasoning in not going off there on the turn that I did. I had a perfect hand to go off, and I knew he didnt have a force/MB Trap (which he sided in over force for some reason). It may not be the right thing to do, but realistically what would be the point in not going off? With no can trips in hand if he rips a thoughtseize and takes my Tutor, then now Im sitting pretty with nothing. I understand that not all of the info is provided (my notes that I take are very minimal, but Ad Nauseum from 19 life probably gets there at least 90% Of the time. In all of the goldfishing and games that I have played previously I have NEVER fizzled, so in my mind why not win that turn? All I had to do was hit one of my 6 tutors left in the deck to win.

[joemauer]

Opening Hand 2 – Underground Sea, Gemstone Mine, Duress, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Gitaxian Probe and another Gitaxian Probe.

Not so fast hand, but would keep against unknown opponent. Play gitaxian probe with life. Draw Chrome mox, meh. Play UGSea and pass. Draw fetchland. Play it and find volcanic, pass the turn. Draw brainstorm, play it with volcanic. Lion's Eye Diamond, Ad Nauseam and Burning Wish. Put Burning Wish, Ad Nauseam on top. Gemstone Mine, Chrome Mox imprint Infernal Tutor and play Duress. Play LED, Dark Ritual. Storm is now at 5 and BBB floating. Tap Gemstone Mine to play Gitaxian Probe, break LED for red. Draw Ad Nauseam and play it, leaving one R in pool, storm at 7 and life at 17. Ad Nauseam Reveals:



Turn three could have also went like this:land drop, Brainstorm(put ad Nauseum, then b wish on top)>Probe paying two life and drawing b wish>Dark Ritual>Infernal Tutor(find LED)>Chrome Mox(imprint duress)>LED>LED>Burning Wish(using black floating and Gemstone Mine) while cracking LEDs for six black>Iggy>LED>LED>Infernal Tutor,crack LEDs for black and red>Burning Wish>Tendrils for 28 life.

What if your opponent is doing 3-6 damage a turn with any old aggro deck? A third turn Ad Nauseum won't get there then.

Ad Nauseum is random, but Ill-Gotten Gains is not. Ad Nauseum will not be an option every game you play in either. Ill-Gotten Gains, Past in Flames, and Diminishing Returns are in the sideboard for a reason guys. You guys should practice more with the other engines of the deck.

[Machahiko]

Turn three could have also went like this:land drop, Brainstorm(put ad Nauseum, then b wish on top)>Probe paying two life and drawing b wish>Dark Ritual>Infernal Tutor(find LED)>Chrome Mox(imprint duress)>LED>LED>Burning Wish(using black floating and Gemstone Mine) while cracking LEDs for six black>Iggy>LED>LED>Infernal Tutor,crack LEDs for black and red>Burning Wish>Tendrils for 28 life.

What if your opponent is doing 3-6 damage a turn with any old aggro deck? A third turn Ad Nauseum won't get there then.

Ad Nauseum is random, but Ill-Gotten Gains is not. Ad Nauseum will not be an option every game you play in either. Ill-Gotten Gains, Past in Flames, and Diminishing Returns are in the sideboard for a reason guys. You guys should practice more with the other engines of the deck.

Thanks for the reply, and this is why I asked for a bit more specific puzzles since this way it's just maybe a bit too easy to Ad Nauseam in each scenario. Or at least I always imagine Ad Nauseam as my primary win condition, and because of that I always think of going for it when possible. I actually use IGG pretty often, Diminishing Returns from time to time - Past in Flames is used pretty much never ever. I just feel like PiF needs 4-6 rituals in graveyard in order to be good, and with that amount of rituals I can usually win with other cards.

Thanks for saying the version which would have been more safe and 100% sure, since AdN can crap out from time to time.

[Megadeus]

Meh the chances of fizzling after Ad Nauseum are so slim, that I would do it again. It never happens to me other than that one time. Like I said. I was at 19 life, not 13. The fact that 4 cantrips later I still didnt find anything is just icing that God didnt want it to happen... I use IGG probably the most, then Diminishing Returns (even though I hate it), then PiF like the guy before me, I almost never use. Almost always I cannot sustain a good steady engine without an LED and PiF does not help me out there.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Meh the chances of fizzling after Ad Nauseum are so slim, that I would do it again. It never happens to me other than that one time. Like I said. I was at 19 life, not 13. The fact that 4 cantrips later I still didnt find anything is just icing that God didnt want it to happen... I use IGG probably the most, then Diminishing Returns (even though I hate it), then PiF like the guy before me, I almost never use. Almost always I cannot sustain a good steady engine without an LED and PiF does not help me out there.

Past in Flames is necessary. It wins enough games where Iggy won't (and vice-versa) to warrant inclusion in the sideboard.

I still hate Diminishing Returns. It's butt fucked me too much.

[Megadeus]

Past in Flames is necessary. It wins enough games where Iggy won't (and vice-versa) to warrant inclusion in the sideboard.

I still hate Diminishing Returns. It's butt fucked me too much.

Right. Returns just ugh... I wish that Reforge the Soul were 4 mana...

[coraz86]

I still hate Diminishing Returns. It's butt fucked me too much.

Ditto. I saw endure2004 complain the other day in a tournament report that Time Spiral, while good on paper, was consistently one mana too much. Has anyone tried Time Reversal in that slot? I don't love it, but sometimes I want that Hail Mary--I'm going to try it pretty soon, unless it's proven completely awful for someone.

[Bryant Cook]

Ditto. I saw endure2004 complain the other day in a tournament report that Time Spiral, while good on paper, was consistently one mana too much. Has anyone tried Time Reversal in that slot? I don't love it, but sometimes I want that Hail Mary--I'm going to try it pretty soon, unless it's proven completely awful for someone.

The problem with Returns isn't that it exiles the top 10 cards of your library. If you read the opening post, you would know that Time Reversal has been tried. I haven't been able to post as much recently, there's a new boss at work, he's very much against using the internet for personal use. That said, it's a bit disappointing to check the thread and see all this crap.

[Megadeus]

The problem with Returns isn't that it exiles the top 10 cards of your library. If you read the opening post, you would know that Time Reversal has been tried. I haven't been able to post as much recently, there's a new boss at work, he's very much against using the internet for personal use. That said, it's a bit disappointing to check the thread and see all this crap.

Right. D Returns is used to refill the hand and then go off a turn or two later with a new grip. That is what I use it for anyway. I just hate that it gets rid of your GY. Ive never had issues with the card that I exiled before though.

[Koby]

Past in Flames is necessary. It wins enough games where Iggy won't (and vice-versa) to warrant inclusion in the sideboard.

I still hate Diminishing Returns. It's butt fucked me too much.

Use lube* next time.

* tears of burn players who lost holding on to Pyrostatic Pillar in hand as they take 20 on Turn 1.

[Bryant Cook]

Use lube* next time.

* tears of burn players who lost holding on to Pyrostatic Pillar in hand as they take 20 on Turn 1.

I'm glad Koby joined the dark side, now I get to read posts like this.

[Basaka]

DR is good when you shuffle 2 bobs and a Liliana your opponent has away, then draw into 3 lands, 4 cantrips, proceeding to rip into the sick with those cantrips next turn and killing your opponent to lock top 8 (true story).

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I'm glad Koby joined the dark side, now I get to read posts like this.

He's playing DDFT.

[thefringthing]

The MTGO Legacy metagame is weird. Half Countertop decks and half Show and Tell. I'm thinking about adjusting the sideboard a bit to compensate.

[Koby]

He's playing DDFT.

I have no allegiance to any deck. I play whatever gets easy wins at any given metagame. DDFT is more of a mental exercise to keep the brain sharp. TES is for crushing face when you expect to not play vs blue decks.

[Megadeus]

Blue decks of the control variants arent even that bad... its tempo that rapes us. I guess CB sucks for us, bit esper stoneblade isnt horrid...

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I have no allegiance to any deck. I play whatever gets easy wins at any given metagame. DDFT is more of a mental exercise to keep the brain sharp. TES is for crushing face when you expect to not play vs blue decks.

Losing to Thoughtscour sucks.

[Bryant Cook]

Went 6-0 at a local. Twice D-Returns won me two game three's in consecutive rounds.

[emidln]

Twice D-Returns won me two game three's in consecutive rounds.

1000% skill. Also, nice. Opening post list?

[aaronm678]

Have you guys considered a Trop or Bayou in the SB? I've been practicing the Miracles matchup quite a bit, and I've had a lot of trouble getting GB up in a reasonable amount of time. Putting a dual in puts us from 6 to 10 Green sources after SB (since Petal isn't really a green source if they've landed CB).

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Have you guys considered a Trop or Bayou in the SB? I've been practicing the Miracles matchup quite a bit, and I've had a lot of trouble getting GB up in a reasonable amount of time. Putting a dual in puts us from 6 to 10 Green sources after SB (since Petal isn't really a green source if they've landed CB).

Totally saw Jund scoop to your turn one on Magic Online.

I'd play the third City of Brass before Tropical Island or Bayou.

[aaronm678]

Totally saw Jund scoop to your turn one on Magic Online.

I'd play the third City of Brass before Tropical Island or Bayou.

Why would you play City of Brass over Trop? At least in the Miracles matchup, I've been boarding down to 1-2 Silence, since you don't really want to draw more than one of them, since that deck isn't really setup to cast more than 1 Counterspell in a turn.

I have been playtesting quite a bit on Modo, I've played ANT for a little while, trying to get used to the playstyle of TES.

[Final Fortune]

Why would you play City of Brass over Trop? At least in the Miracles matchup, I've been boarding down to 1-2 Silence, since you don't really want to draw more than one of them, since that deck isn't really setup to cast more than 1 Counterspell in a turn.

I have been playtesting quite a bit on Modo, I've played ANT for a little while, trying to get used to the playstyle of TES.

I've always found the deck light on off colored mana sources personally, it may be variance, but with anything less than 7 gold lands I've had to sac a Lotus Petal to cast a Silence far too many times.

[jin]

DR with the 3 main colours floating almost certainly wins you the game if not on the turn, then the turn after. I'm starting to like DR again.



Have you guys considered a Trop or Bayou in the SB? I've been practicing the Miracles matchup quite a bit, and I've had a lot of trouble getting GB up in a reasonable amount of time. Putting a dual in puts us from 6 to 10 Green sources after SB (since Petal isn't really a green source if they've landed CB).

Play out lotus petals when you draw them?

[Bryant Cook]

1000% skill. Also, nice. Opening post list?

I wasn't going to say it... Also, yes. Hopefully you guys will see me on camera Sunday.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I wasn't going to say it... Also, yes. Hopefully you guys will see me on camera Sunday.

In a field of Jund and Punishing Fire Lands.dec, you have no reason to not win this tournament. Will be rooting for you.

[jin]

In a field of Jund and Punishing Fire Lands.dec, you have no reason to not win this tournament. Will be rooting for you.

I hear people are expecting combo... I still haven't seen grapeshot at an SCG Open feature match...

[Gaka]

I hear people are expecting combo... I still haven't seen grapeshot at an SCG Open feature match...

Folks have been expecting combo for awhile - that didn't stop Punishing Jund from doing really well.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Looks like our boys picked up 9th and 10th. Good showing.

[Megadeus]

Looks like our boys picked up 9th and 10th. Good showing.

That round 9 game was rough. It hurt to watch...

[Gaka]

That round 9 game was rough. It hurt to watch...

I really want to know his hand and reasoning for keeping a no-lander with nothing (it seemed) but a chrome mox for mana.

[Jay_Gatz]

I also got 13th with the front page list but somehow scg messed up the standings on the website, don't even know how it happened

[Megadeus]

I really want to know his hand and reasoning for keeping a no-lander with nothing (it seemed) but a chrome mox for mana.

It looked like a very solid hand. All he needed was a mana source. He had disruption. It looked like mox, ritual LED and durress plus whatever else. Seems solid if you get there.

[Bryant Cook]

Expect a report for Friday's article.

[Deviruchi]

Man... Achievement almost unlocked.

[Endure2004]

Ill post more about the tournament when I get home but I'm still on my way back.

[Jay_Gatz]

Who else didn't touch their abrupt decays all weekend?

[Megadeus]

I didn't get to actually use my abrupt decay's too much at SCG ATL, but it is always nice to have it under a chrome mox turning it into a Bayou!

[phazonmutant]

I didn't get to actually use my abrupt decay's too much at SCG ATL, but it is always nice to have it under a chrome mox turning it into a Bayou!

What do you think this is, SI? ;)

[Megadeus]

What do you think this is, SI? ;)

Theres something that just seems fun about imprinting a gold card under a chrome mox... Though not as fun as imprinting a Moat under a Chrome Mox.

[Royce Walter]

I drew into top32 at SCG NJ this weekend, unlike someone else....

Although they named my deck ANT.

[Bryant Cook]

I drew into top32 at SCG NJ this weekend, unlike someone else....

Although they named my deck ANT.

You had the option of being a man and playing it out. If you did we could've had 4 TES in the top 16.

[Jay_Gatz]

I drew into top32 at SCG NJ this weekend, unlike someone else....

Although they named my deck ANT.

They named it ANT because you drew instead of manning up.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

They named it ANT because you drew instead of manning up.

I'm the reason they changed The Perfect Storm to The Epic Storm during Endure2004's feature match :P

Shoebox is a good guy.

[Koby]

I didn't get to actually use my abrupt decay's too much at SCG ATL, but it is always nice to have it under a chrome mox turning it into a Bayou!

My actual reason for playing Abrupt Decay, actually.

[Gaka]

My actual reason for playing Abrupt Decay, actually.

I wasn't aware that we used Decay for anything else.

[Asthereal]

I wasn't aware that we used Decay for anything else.
Suggestion for a new sideboard tech: Maelstrom Archangel!
You might even use it some day to cast an Ad Nauseam. :wink:

[Megadeus]

Suggestion for a new sideboard tech: Maelstrom Archangel!
You might even use it some day to cast an Ad Nauseam. :wink:

We broke the deck guys. I remember when someone told me Deathrite Shaman was good to imprint on chrome Mox in SI, my first thought was: "Why not just play progenitus and make any color?!!?". Ad Nauseum + Progenitus. Now theres a combo.

[Vandalize]

We broke the deck guys. I remember when someone told me Deathrite Shaman was good to imprint on chrome Mox in SI, my first thought was: "Why not just play progenitus and make any color?!!?". Ad Nauseum + Progenitus. Now theres a combo.

We should totally play 4 Progenitus and 4 Emrakul maindeck. Our Ad Nauseams would be awesome!

@thread

Since Jund and Elves are big for now, my Abrupt Decays are also sitting in my sideboard. I usually board nothing for these matchups game 2, since they have no permission at all, and can bring various hate. And I haven't played against Miracles in a while, making my sideboard pretty much the 7 card wishboard.

[Bryant Cook]

Back to back weeks where I've X-0'd my locals with storm. I lost one game tonight, it's a damn shame.

In other news, my report/article will be up tonight/tomorrow.

[Dark Ritual]

We broke the deck guys. I remember when someone told me Deathrite Shaman was good to imprint on chrome Mox in SI, my first thought was: "Why not just play progenitus and make any color?!!?". Ad Nauseum + Progenitus. Now theres a combo.

But deathrite is the backup win con in SI, and can actually do things unlike progenitus (unless you're proposing that SI run a transformational sideboard into NO Progenitus...this sounds terrible.)

I boarded in emrakul shelldock isle in doomsday once and left the miser ad nauseam in. I even cast said ad nauseam, but I didn't flip emrakul luckily. I didn't realize it until after I stopped then I thought "I dodged the nuclear bomb."

When I saw the name The Perfect Storm I just thought "vintage is well and truly dead if people don't remember that The Perfect Storm is a vintage deck, not a legacy deck..."

[Bryant Cook]

Cook’s Kitchen – Storming into Edison (02/10/2013): Tenth Place (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2013/52913/cooks-kitchen-storming-into-edison-02102013-tenth-place)

This week's article. This past weekend's report.

[Megadeus]

Cook’s Kitchen – Storming into Edison (02/10/2013): Tenth Place (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2013/52913/cooks-kitchen-storming-into-edison-02102013-tenth-place)

This week's article. This past weekend's report.

Great article. Its unfortunate the way your Goblins opponent handled not drawing in the last round. I had a similar situation (minus a twitter post) in the legacy challenge at SCG ATL when I got paired down in the fourth round and didnt split because that wouldve put me at 3-0-1 and him at 2-1-1. Or as he asked if I would just concede. I figure why concede when I can just go for it?

As for the stealing, I hate that. Now that I think about it though, I was probably looking pretty sketchy when all I would do is walk around matches...

[Endure2004]

Nice report. I guess I'll add a short one. I kept no notes so this is all from memory and will be pretty brief:

Round 1 against mono black Reanimator:

Game 1 He's shuffling and I see marsh flats and vampire hexmage. He reveals a hand with shallow grave and some discard spells and I win with Ad Nauseum. Game 2 He plays a land and says go. I duress, and he entombs Griselbrand in response. Duress reveals 3x shallow grave, land. On his turn, he casts shallow grave, draws 14 cards, and plays lotus petal, dark ritual, entomb emrakul, with trigger on the stack reanimate it with goryo's vengeance. I scoop. Game 3 I mulligan. My turn 1 probe reveals: griselbrand, duress, exhume, top, swamp, and some other irrelevant cards. My hand can therapy, then make 8 goblins. I decide to go for it. I take his exhume and top with the therapies, leaving me with 7 goblins. He plays swamp and does nothing. The goblins swing for 3 turns and get there.

Round 2 against T.E.S.

Game 1 My opponent leads with underground sea, ponder. Except he thinks it's brainstorm. I call the judge. He scoops, and says, "you got it". He flops his hand on the table, showing me T.E.S. I hadn't played a single card yet. Game 2 He plays a ponder out, and I duress revealing burning wish, LED, rite of flame, dark ritual, lotus petal, land. I think the correct choice is normally burning wish, but my opponent had already revealed to me (and told me) that he was returning to the game. I decide to take LED. I drop my own LED, and pass. On his turn, he plays brainstorm into rituals into infernal tutor floating 3 mana. I'm pretty confused, but it's apparent he messed up and he fetches a duress and duresses me. I win a couple of turns later.

Round 3 against Jund

Don't remember much other than winning with empty twice. I also cabal therapied 3 abrupt decays out of his hand in game 2.

Round 4 against Junk

Game 1 he plays cabal therapy, hymn, eternal witness flashbacking cabal therapy, hymn. I have no cards in hand but he has no pressure. I eventually build up to six lands in play. I draw infernal tutor and infernal tutor for burning wish for time spiral. On my next turn, I cast time spiral untapping six lands (storm 1). My spiraled hand is 2x land, 2x mox, brainstorm, probe, ponder. I cast my cantrips in the correct order, find more cantrips, and eventually find a burning wish and an LED to finish up at storm 10. Game 2 All I remember is pondering into dark ritual, infernal tutor holding LED x2 infernal tutor in hand. I play both LED's out (it's turn 1) and pass. He plays pithing needle naming LED (oops). I draw and Ad Nauseum into a win.

Round 5 against BUG

Game 1 he plays hymn but I had played around it by hiding a tutor on top. I draw and Ad Nauseum. I get excited enough about my win that I punt severely. Sigh. I always tell myself to play emotionless, whether it is getting excited about a win or angry about drawing poorly. It only makes me play worse. I violated my rule and got punished for it. I had the kill, but went to 2, not remembering that he had an active deathrite in play. Game 2 I get rolled by hymns and 3x force. After this game I was pretty upset with myself so I went outside and cooled off. I had to get my head back in the game. Tilting did nothing to help me play better and I had to get my mind off that awful punt. I called my girlfriend, talked to some friends, and tried not to think about it. I swore to myself that I would always oblige by my "game principles" from then on, one of which is to play without emotion. Even with an absolute win on the board, I can't get excited and rush through it, and I have to calculate my opponents outs. Lesson learned....

4-1

Round 6 against elves

He's got a sweet foil elves deck. I tell him my deck is foil minus 1 dark ritual and we both laugh about it. Game 1 I ad nauseum a turn before he sets up. Game 2 he has a bunch of irrelevant cards in hand and on turn 3 I set up an ill-gotten gains kill.

Round 7 against UR stiflenaught tempo

Both of these games he's short on mana, is holding a metric butt ton of counterspells, but decides to tap out for stand still. Both games I know his hand is full of pierces and stifles and I break standstill and go for it, and he doesn't draw a FOW. Goblin tokens take it down both games.

Round 8 against high tide

Game 1 I ponder into burning wish, infernal tutor, something. My hand is lands, rite of flamex2, lotus petal, dark ritual. That's a turn 2 past in flames kill. He goes probe, island, ponder. I put him on sneak and show. Turn 2 I go for it and he doesn't have it. Game 2 Develops to a point where I silence with enough to ad nauseum. He looks at his hand, and tells me that he's punted. He reveals force, pact, pact, and his field is 3 lands, candelabra. He told me that he brainstormed a high tide to the top of his deck, so he couldn't pay for a pact. I proceed to kill him.

Round 9 against sneak and show (feature match against josh ravitz)

I thought I was going to be able to draw in, but everyone was telling me looking at the standings that I had to play it out. He even offered the draw, and I knew the matchup was bad. Unfortunately, I had to play. Game 1 I mulliganed into 2 lands, ponder, 2 duress. He plays ponder, keep, go. I duress, revealing a hand of cantrips, show and tell, griselbrand, lands. I take show and tell, but he hid a show and tell with ponder on top. I lose. Game 2 my keep was chrome mox, infernal tutor x2, dark ritual x2, rite of flame, probe, I think. I remember it being a borderline hand. Royce said he would keep, but Bryant said he would ship. After rethinking about it now, I think I should've shipped. Anyway, you all know how that one turned out. Turns out the way the games played out if i had intentional drawed with him, I would've top 8'd. Weird.

I learned my lessons, and am eager to bring them to the next big event. I've been wanting to add the 13th land for awhile, and the deck needs some help with the FOW combo matchups. If y'all could test against reanimator and sneak show and post some results / findings with xantid swarm and how good that card is against them that would be great.

[Malakai]

Good job putting the fear back into all of these non-blue, grindy deck pilots.

Do you think ANT has a better Jund matchup--as they dodge wasteland--or do you prefer the ~half a turn faster win that TES has?

[Endure2004]

Playing the grindy game against Jund is tough, as Liliana and bob give them the upper edge. Empty is awesome against them. Also, T.E.S. is probably a full turn faster (rather than half a turn).

[Bryant Cook]

TES is much faster than ANT, I'd be willing to say a turn and a half faster.

[Megadeus]

TES is much faster than ANT, I'd be willing to say a turn and a half faster.

It does take a couple of turns to turn on their Cbal Rituals. Thats a fair statement. Their turn 1 nut hands are much less likely as ours as well.

[Asthereal]

Nice report, and well played as usual. :smile:
Too bad about the million Chrome Moxes though. But indeed one needs a little luck to win.

Hate to read again about theft at Magic tourneys...
It starts to happen more and more often in Europe as well.
Keep an eye out, everyone! We need to nail those bastards.

[Gaka]

Maindeck:
-1 Duress
+1 Fetchland

Some notes on this one:

Because I'm lazy/cheap/whatever, I've been playing with zero cities and instead another pair of fetches, giving me a total fetch count of 5. I like having the extra fetches, as it makes brainstorms much more powerful and also allows for more selective ponder plays, but losing too many 5c lands does impact being able to cast silence (which is the best card in the deck) and does hurt. You can most certainly feel the lack of 5c lands, but it's juuuuust at the tipping point.

I really like at least one more fetch, but of course not at the expense of two 5c lands. I think I'll try out a single city plus the additional fetch and see how it plays out. Because science.

On duress, it may be because the local meta has evolved into an almost entirely combo and anti-combo meta, duress has been insane, at times better than silence. I'd almost like to play four. This almost might have to do with the fact that with less 5c lands and more fetches, it's easier to play duress than silence.

Another note on having an extra fetchland or two - it does slow the deck down, maybe half a turn on a bad day. Is the extra stability worth losing the speed?


Sideboard:
-1 Hull Breach
-1 Cabal Therapy
+2 Xantid Swarm

Yes. The times where Hull Breach is great are times where Empty the Warrens is likely lethal anyways (I refer mostly to leyline of don't touch me) and the third therapy is slightly, barely, maybe overkill. In the past few weeks at the local legacy events, I've wished for the discard maybe once. Twice, if you consider the time I goldfished and felt like it. However, I think if one additional green needer pops up, adding an extra fetch might reduce the value of it. We'll see. I'm lazy, so perhaps I'll find the local RUG player and poke him with it until he dies, just to see what happens. Squish.


On stealing - it seems most major events I go to end up having at least one high-value theft. At GP SJ this past October (?) one of my friends had their binder full of duals whisked away, and it took a fun little baiting process to narrow it down to fourish people. That number should have been zero. It's become common practice now that I will only sit with my bag literally under my feet, or hogtied to my shoe. Take every precaution at events that don't ticket, and keep to them at those that do.

Good on you for not identifying who the ringleader was in the article, witch hunts are not what should be promoted, regardless of what action they took.

[jin]

One thing that I really want to know, but probably won't get the answer to is this:


Round Three: Chris with RUG Delver

Game One: Chris wins the die-roll and begins with Tropical Island into Delver of Secrets. I play Volcanic Island, Ponder. Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox (Imprint Infernal Tutor), Dark Ritual, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Infernal Tutor for Empty the Warrens and cast it. I could’ve played Ad Nauseam but I suspected that he could have had Daze.

How did you know?! (About the lack of FOW, not Daze)

[Bryant Cook]

One thing that I really want to know, but probably won't get the answer to is this:



How did you know?! (About the lack of FOW, not Daze)

I didn't. I just went for it.

[Megadeus]

Game 1 blind if I have a nutters hand I will probably go for it as well. I mean they dont know you are on combo so you know that they arent specifically looking for a force of will. They just want a solid hand.

[Tammit67]

I didn't. I just went for it.

I feel like I'm getting worse with storm since I often know their hand when going off instead of just going for it like I'd have to with TES. I don't have to read people anymore

[Lans89]

@Endure2004: Wow your TES opponent in round 2 was probably still sleeping :P? In the other rounds players made some nice mistakes as well. It's a big + that TES can get a huge advantage of other player's mistakes ^^! Game 1 against Junk in round 4 must have felt epic too :P...

Thanks for both reports!

[jin]

I suppose I tend to play in small tournaments, so I don't get a chance to just go. I normally eat that FOW that they top-decked. I guess a big tournament will allow more room to just go for it. Thanks for the insight guys!

Reading people is definitely a skill that I have not developed fully. Gitaxian Probe is really helping out (or not depending on how you look at it).

[goblinsplayer]

Hi! I am selling death and taxes to buy into this deck. Any advice for a new TES player?

[Megadeus]

Goldfish alot and learm the lines of play.

[goblinsplayer]

Goldfish alot and learm the lines of play.

Thanks

[jin]

Thanks

Watch videos and read tournament reports involving how to SB.

[Jay_Gatz]

Hi! I am selling death and taxes to buy into this deck. Any advice for a new TES player?

Find a more experienced storm player to watch and to watch you play and comment, makes it a lot easier than trying to learn everything for yourself

[Megadeus]

I watched all of the videos in the OP and learned the lines by reading the posts. It took me awhile to get it all down, and I remember in my very first game with the deck Tutoring with 3 mana..

[goblinsplayer]

I just got this deck today.(with the cards from jupiter games) I have been playing against my brother who runs nic fit and i got 3 wins off him when he got 4 wins off me. Is this a good matchup for him or me?

[Megadeus]

You. Im not going to say Nic Fit is a bye, but G1 it shouldnt be too tough. G2 & 3 are a bit more difficult, especially if they are running Mindbreak Trap.

[Bryant Cook]

Just read the opening post. Then all of the content within the links section.

[Arew]

A pretty bad report, since I didn't take notes and haven't slept , but I played T.E.S. at Cincinnati this weekend to a pretty disappointing 74th at 5-4. I also went 2-2 in the Legacy Challenge. In the challenge I used Bryant's changes to both the maindeck and the side, but only the changes to the sideboard for the Open. Also important to note, I couldn't find 2x Silence before the player's meeting so I had to borrow 2x Orim's Chants from a friend.


Challenge:
R1: Esper Stoneblade (2-0)

I killed him G1 pretty easy, G2 he mulled to six and kept Leyline of Sanctity + Force + Top + one land, he stumbles on mana and I make a lot of goblins and hope he doesn't have land + explosives on top.

R2: Lands (2-1)

He managed to lock me out G2, G3 he kills all my lands but doesn't find any lock pieces and gives me plenty of time to sculpt a sweet hand to just kill him.

R3: ??? (X-2)

I honestly just don't remember this match at the moment.

R4: homebrew ANTish build (1-2)

He gets me G1 on the play, I get him g2 on the play, and G3 I mull to six and keep: City, Volc, Fetch, LED, LED, Lotus Petal. I keep thinking I should have mulled, but my thinking was I have to get lucky to get a five that will kill him, and he runs more discard than I do, and if I have to get lucky either way, might as well keep the hand that just needs a tutor.

Open:

R1: OmniTell (2-1)

G1 we both mull to six, I can kill him on t2 and he didn't keep a counterspell other than Divert. G2 we both mull to six again, but his is Land, Lotus Petal, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Griselbrand, Leyline. I wasn't expecting Leyline, so I didn't side in Chain of Vapor's and had just cut the Hull Breach, so I scoop it up when he Griselbrands into Emrakul. G3 keeps a no land hand with Leyline + Force, so I silence into Ad Nauseam into Chain on his Leyline into the kill.

R2: Reanimator (0-2)

G1 we both durdle, he eventually has two unknown cards in hand, so I go for it, it's Force + blue card, a couple of turns later he reanimates Iona and I die. G2, I mull to six and he has T2 Jin-Gitaxias, and I don't have enough mana to go for any combo, so on my turn I silence him, play Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, LED, Infernal > Xantid Swarm and hope to draw a business spell. I don't.

R3: Esper Stoneblade - Matt Hoey (1-2)

G1 he has a lot of discard that I can't beat, G2 I land Xantid Swarm and kill him, G3 I cast four brainstorms and only find one protection spell and he has two counterspells when I go for it.

R4: Esper Stoneblade (2-0)

My opponent doesn't really do much, and is pretty new to Legacy, I kill him fairly easily both games, not much to report. Xantid Swarm did some work G2 by baiting a Force.

R5: RUG Delver - Curt Krane (0-2)

G1 I mull to four looking for an initial mana-source, though I mull'd a five of: Git Probe, Git Probe, Orim's Chant, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal and am forced to keep a four of something like Lotus Petal, Dark Rit, Rite of Flame, ???, G2 my only real window is on T3 when I Cabal Therapy him, with the intent on making 12 goblins that turn, he brainstorms, I brainfart and still name Force, even though it's obvious he would put it back and Daze kept me one mana away from comboing. I go outside for a bit to avoid tilting, playing against an acquaintance sucks, even more when you mull to 4 then punt the next game.

R6: Nic Fit (2-1)

G1 I burning wish, realize I don't have a tutor in my yard for IGG or PiF, and didn't crack my LED for blue like an idiot and get Empty, get him to one before he lands a deed and I don't find a burning wish for grapeshot. G2 and 3 he plays some hatebears, has a mindbreak trap or two I kill them/bounce them/discard them, and then him.

R7: UB Painter Grindstone (2-0)

G1 I'm forced to Ad Naus at 8 life and six storm and get there, at this point I'm ecstatic, because that's the lowest I've ever won with that card. G2
he keeps a pretty loose hand with nothing but a mindbreak trap, I cantrip for a couple turns, duress his trap, kill him.

R8: Maverick (2-1)

G1 he goes Forest, pass. I Gitaxian Probe him to see Thalia and Teeg in hand, have 2 cantrips, a land and 2 dark rits in my hand at this point, rip Ad Naus, kill him from 18. G2 he gets Momx2, Thalia and Thalia out before I can deal with it, so I scoop and move to G3, I play a t1 cantrip, t2 make 12 goblins, and he can't deal with it.

R9: ANT - Benjamin Ball (1-2)

G1 I have T1 Ad Naus, G2 I mull to a mediocre six and he kills me before I can go off, G3, I t1 Duress and see Delta, Delta, Cabal Rit, Cabal Rit, LED, IT, BW. I take LED, he plays a land and passes, and at this point my hand is Chrome Mox, Chrome Mox, Dark Rit, Rite of Flame, Ponder, Silence, and my line of thought was that he runs around 8 discard spells and only has 3 LED's left, so I go for the set up with Ponder instead of leaving Silence up and set up for a t3 Ad Naus, he EOT Brainstorm's into an LED and I'm dead.

Overall the deck felt fine, most of my mulligans this weekend were due to no-land hands, so maybe the 14th land would be nice, but I flooded out a couple times during the challenge. I'm sure I messed up more than the points I pointed out, but due to a lack of sleep after playing T.E.S. for nine rounds, I'm pretty fried. Xantid Swarm's were pretty awesome all weekend, and won me multiple games, so I was pretty happy about that change. Fairly upset I didn't money, and pretty sure it's my fault, so it's time to tank and try to find out where it happened.

Props:
Terrell Boaz getting 4th, it's about time one of us makes it.
Xantid Swarm for being the best bug ever.
Bryant for making the deck.
Ross Koblentz and Chris Kronenberger for convincing me to play Storm over Elves.

Slops:
No lands
Myself for sucking

[NQN]

sup guys,
haven´t played for almost 2 years now but since I found out there was going to be a Legacy GP in Europe soon im super stoked to be able to play the most amazing deck ever in a tournament again! One thing i was wondering (probably has been asked a thousand times already, but i´d like a "new" answer to this:)
Are the amounts of Misdirection higher than Surgical Extraction in the current meta? Or what else is the reason for 4 Silence instead of 2/2?
I will write a report for sure if I make day2, but as far as my observation goes, i feel pretty good so far, knowing that people don´t seem to except storm that much anymore.
Thanks for any answers!
greetings,
notquitenoob

*EDIT* Last time i played was Amsterdam where I made day2 with ease just to get destroyed by 3 reanimators in a row the following rounds, i was wondering if there is any "new" tech they can bring against us in addition?

[Asthereal]

Silence is played instead of Chant because of stuff like Leyline of Sanctity mostly.
And because we almost never use the 'you cannot attack'-option anyway.
Misdirection has also become pretty bad against us because we don't play targeted stuff game 1 anymore, but that wasn't the main reason. People usually don't play much of those effects anyway.
Getting your Silences Extracted can be a nuisance, but I never lost because of it. One can always Wish for more protection.

EDIT: I see you are from Europe. We have more Storm than the American meta, so people here also adapt to it more. Always a good idea to keep that in mind. :wink:

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

...haven´t played for almost 2 years...

I seriously thought you died.

[NQN]

I seriously thought you died.

People remember me? :D I`m flattered!

No, actually, i just began my academic studies, got a gf and discovered LoL :P

Edit: Just played a game on MWS, a guy played Pithing Needle naming LED. Nothings changed :p
Edit2: Thanks for the explanation! Back in the days i always liked the 2/2 split, saved my ass bunch of times because of the moat-effect but also against stuff like said Extraction or Cabal Therapy. I´m not sure how fast Dredge is these days, but when I played it the matchup was often decided by a Chant+kicker at the right time! Japanese Chants look so much cooler than my chinese Silence :*(

[Asthereal]

LOL yeah that stuff still happens from time to time. :tongue:

I have only once cast Chant with kicker in four years of TES. So the not-targeting Silence has my preference.

Against Dredge decks you can still use Silence to stop them from Dread Returning and Cabal Therapying. That slows them down a full turn to combo out. There's also a rather popular Manaless list right now. I think it's crap compared to LED dredge with 12-13 lands and Faithless Looting, but people seem to like the fact that it's such an awkward deck to play against. It still dies to proper grave hate though. So there's really really fast Dredge, but you are just as likely to encounter a slower Manaless list.

EDIT: Watch out for the new stuff with creatures from the last set that drop their deck in the grave at once and then win on the spot. Like this dude: Balustrade Spy. Could become the flavour of next week.

[phazonmutant]

*EDIT* Last time i played was Amsterdam where I made day2 with ease just to get destroyed by 3 reanimators in a row the following rounds, i was wondering if there is any "new" tech they can bring against us in addition?

Griselbrand is a thing. I know there's one Sourcer in France who plays Reanimator with Stifles (for the Shallow Grave trigger), as if the matchup wasn't hard enough already. There's likely to be less Iona and probably no Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, but should still have Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in the 75. Show and Tell decks have mostly taken over Reanimator's role as the Force of Will combo decks.

I think the biggest change for storm in the past 2 years was the printing of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. She's made W creature matchups like Death and Taxes (mono-W) or Maverick (GW aggro hatebears) even to difficult. Fortunately mostly those decks have changed to be Junk so you'll only have to face a bunch of Hymns and Mindbreak Traps out of the creature decks.

Hope you do well!

[jin]

I think the biggest change for storm in the past 2 years was the printing of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. She's made W creature matchups like Death and Taxes (mono-W) or Maverick (GW aggro hatebears) even to difficult. Fortunately mostly those decks have changed to be Junk so you'll only have to face a bunch of Hymns and Mindbreak Traps out of the creature decks.

Hope you do well!

I would say Gitaxian Probe and Abrupt Decay have made the biggest impact. Gitaxian Probe deemphasizing the poker skills (and shutting down cards like Mindbreak Trap and Flusterstorm, and Abrupt Decay shrinking the size of our SB, freeing up SB space.

The meta has always had Sphere of Resistance/Thorn of Amethyst and hatebears. Nothing has given us the power that Gitaxian Probe and Abrupt Decay has, in our MB and SB respectively.

[Darkness]

Currently Writing a report for SCG: Edison Side event where I went 3-1. Nothing impressive but I wanted to mention the small success (and all of my big failures) piloting the deck live for the first time.

[HoneyT]

Currently Writing a report for SCG: Edison Side event where I went 3-1. Nothing impressive but I wanted to mention the small success (and all of my big failures) piloting the deck live for the first time.

3-1 isn't that bad. If anything, it's closer to impressive.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

So what's the consensus on the bug?

It's 2 if any, I'd rather play the full 4. Decks too tight on space. Damn Gitaxian Probe.

[TheRedBaron]

Just have to say that this deck is so good. I've been to 2 SCG opens with TES, I can say, the only games I lose was because of missed triggers (missed a Xantid trigger vs. CoV --->Iona ), my own miscalculation of combat damage and being too greedy off AN.

I used to use the old Iggypop combo decks and preban ANT. TES is my favorite at the moment.

I cut down on lands to 12 and it closely resembles Cook's build now.



So what's the consensus on the bug?

It's 2 if any, I'd rather play the full 4. Decks too tight on space. Damn Gitaxian Probe.

I always run 2 on board, can't really fit anymore, Else you have to dump a decay and CBTop matchup becomes that much harder.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I always run 2 on board, can't really fit anymore, Else you have to dump a decay and CBTop matchup becomes that much harder.

Do we even have to respect the Miracles match up anymore? That's the thing. I'm not sure if we should. Figure you run into more Show and Tell and Reanimator decks than you do Counterbalance.

[Bryant Cook]

My current list is on the opening post. The difference from when I wrote about the deck a few weeks ago is that I'm back at twelve lands. However, I am keeping Xantids in my sideboard.

As for the Abrupt Decay haters, I still see some Counterbalance from the Rest in Peace combo decks. Other than that? Not a whole lot. I'm keeping Decay because it's a catch all, it's great against Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void as well as Thalia and Gaddeck Teeg. I had to face those cards in Edison. What exactly are you looking to add in their spots? You have to keep in mind that the deck is incredibly tight and you can't over commit sideboard space to a certain match-up because there simply isn't enough to take out.

[joemauer]

My current list is on the opening post. The difference from when I wrote about the deck a few weeks ago is that I'm back at twelve lands. However, I am keeping Xantids in my sideboard.

As for the Abrupt Decay haters, I still see some Counterbalance from the Rest in Peace combo decks. Other than that? Not a whole lot. I'm keeping Decay because it's a catch all, it's great against Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void as well as Thalia and Gaddeck Teeg. I had to face those cards in Edison. What exactly are you looking to add in their spots? You have to keep in mind that the deck is incredibly tight and you can't over commit sideboard space to a certain match-up because there simply isn't enough to take out.

Didn't you mention that Hull Breach was a dead card for you lately?
Should that spot be a Karakas or third Xantid Swarm?

[Bryant Cook]

Didn't you mention that Hull Breach was a dead card for you lately?
Should that spot be a Karakas or third Xantid Swarm?

The sideboard before I just edited it (again) was sixteen cards. Now it's fifteen without a Hullbreach.

[jandax]

The sideboard before I just edited it (again) was sixteen cards. Now it's fifteen without a Hullbreach.

Been playing that 75 for a couple months, and it feels good. Wouldn't change a thing, at least for the next set or two.

[Arew]

I want to fit Karakas back in with Reanimator showing up again, but I don't think there is anything to cut for it.

[Gunseng]

So I went to my first local tournament with TES this weekend and did not do too well. Part of it was bad luck, but I am sure that with more skill I could have done better. I have two questions:
1. In which situations do you wish for Diminishing Returns? It seems like a huge gamble, especially because it also refills the opponent's hand.
2. When is the correct time to go off? Should you wait for as long as possible and risk a potential loss if you enemy does to more damage than you thought possible? Or should you go for the throat and risk losing because your empty the warrens made too few tokens? I know that there is no general answer for this, but I would be content with a few pointers.

Thanks!

[Asthereal]

1. Diminishing Returns is a card you use when:
- You HAVE to go off (or else you die), but you have no alternative.
- You tried to go off but failed, and need to refill your hand.
- Your hand got ripped apart by discard from the opponent, and you need new cards.
Remember that you don't always have to win the same turn you use Returns.
Another thing to remember: if you Returns, try to have enough mana in reserve after it resolves, and if possible, try to have a blue mana, because you are bound to draw a cantrip, and if you can cast that immidiately, it can help find the cards you need and increase your odds to win on the spot tremedously.

2. The question when to go off depends on your hand and on which deck you are facing. Some thoughts:
If you are facing a quick aggro deck (Burn, Sligh, fast Zoo), you need to hurry a bit. Turn one 14+ Goblins will usually do the trick, but they usually also allow you to go off unhindered with Past in Flames or Ill-Gotten Gains too, so if your hand allows a PiF/Iggy setup for turn 2-3, that's also fine. Ad Nauseam is risky. Only play that on turn 1-2 if your life total allows it. Calculate other options first.
Against decks with counters, it all depends on how much pressure they put on your life total. Miracles usually gives you a lot of time to sculpt a winner hand while disrupting their defenses. If Probe shows you CounterTop and you have no Duress to stop it from landing, you'll need to be quick though. Terminus can single handedly wipe out your Goblin army, so a Tendrils kill is usually better. If you have no alternative, you could also just play a small Empty the Warrens turn one, and then refill you hand to go for a lethal Tendrils later.
Tempo Threshold puts you under more pressure, but they have no proper answer to Empty the Warrens game one. Watch out for Stifle though. That can ruin your day pretty badly. Try to go for an EtW of 10+ turn 2-3-4. If they have lethal combat damage ready for the next turn, and all you have for business is a Burning Wish and Silence for protection, this might be a tiome to go for Returns. Silence them first, so they cannot use the counterspells they draw from Returns, and then hope for some nice cards from Returns.
Blade Control (UWb) is a really awkward matchup sometimes. They can put you under pressure with a quick Batterskull, and they have discard and counterspells, so they attack from multiple angles. Your strategy depends on what Probe shows you.

Read the opening post as well. Bryant's comments are very helpful.

[Lemnear]

So I went to my first local tournament with TES this weekend and did not do too well. Part of it was bad luck, but I am sure that with more skill I could have done better. I have two questions:
1. In which situations do you wish for Diminishing Returns? It seems like a huge gamble, especially because it also refills the opponent's hand.
2. When is the correct time to go off? Should you wait for as long as possible and risk a potential loss if you enemy does to more damage than you thought possible? Or should you go for the throat and risk losing because your empty the warrens made too few tokens? I know that there is no general answer for this, but I would be content with a few pointers.

Thanks!

1) Whenever your Storm count is too low to go the distance in a reasonable time (like facing batterskull) or if you face common boardwipers like Terminus or Deed

2) Waiting for the Opponent to sculpt his Hand with Counter or deal some damage to you to weaken your ad nauseam is Never a Good idea. There is a reason we play chrome moxen and a Free peek aka Gitaxian Probe: we want to cast ad Nauseam successful in the First 3 turns. Hands that demand 2 or more turns of development should most likely be reshuffled. Situations will occur, which require a decision to throw your Balls to the Wall or wait (maybe for turns). Those need experience to judge about and choosing the right one but you shall not fear to throw your ad Nauseam into the Face of a Blue decks Player still holding 2-3 cards in general

Edit: ninja'd

[Asthereal]

Edit: ninja'd
That's fine. We both had different tips. :wink:

[Darkness]

Bryant, has Si Ning Li influenced you at all with regards to Time Spiral vs. Diminishing Returns? I know you too are close and he's been playing with Time Spiral in almost all of his recent successes. What are his opinions on it and your counter arguments?

[jin]

So I went to my first local tournament with TES this weekend and did not do too well. Part of it was bad luck, but I am sure that with more skill I could have done better. I have two questions:
1. In which situations do you wish for Diminishing Returns? It seems like a huge gamble, especially because it also refills the opponent's hand.
2. When is the correct time to go off? Should you wait for as long as possible and risk a potential loss if you enemy does to more damage than you thought possible? Or should you go for the throat and risk losing because your empty the warrens made too few tokens? I know that there is no general answer for this, but I would be content with a few pointers.

Thanks!

Welcome to The EPIC Storm. If it is your first local tournament with the deck, I would hesitate to attribute it to luck. I think the developer(s) of this deck has done a fine job in tuning it to avoid any 'luck' based failures. It runs 12 cantrips, 8 tutors, 2 fail safes (ad nauseam/etw), and a lot of mana. Before you attribute your loss to luck, try to understand where you might have went wrong first. This is the fastest way you'll improve with this deck. One of the most difficult things to handle is the way you cantrip. You might consider that first:

-what do you see and what do you keep?
-do you shuffle enough with Ponder?
-do you hold your Brainstorm for long enough?

Only experience can tell you the answer to these questions. To answer your questions from your post though:

1. DR is used against aggro decks that are disrupting your graveyard or your hand. This means that it is the best engine to beat GBx decks. It is the least disrupt-able engine outside of counter magic. It is good to:
-refill your hand
-get more storm as it generates somewhere between 2 to 9+ storm on its own
-dodges graveyard-hate from disrupting you (IGG + PiF)
-dodges sweepers from disrupting you (ETW)
-dodges direct damage from disrupting you (Ad Nauseam)

To use DR successfully, you may refer to the opening post. Some things to remember that will help you avoid frustration with DR are:
-percentage is higher when you still have a land drop
-percentage is higher when you have all 3 colours (B/U/R) floating
-percentage is higher when you haven't used multiple Burning Wish yet.
-percentage is higher when you have an LED in play (don't break it, you'll need it for hellbent)
-percentage is higher when they are Silenced or just plain aren't playing blue
-percentage is higher with more lands in play as you'll have more business in your new 7.

After much failure and success with DR, I would have to say that it is NOT the "oh shit" button some of us may lead to believe. Rather, it is sometimes the "go to" card especially if your hand is being disrupted and your life is dropping fast (Dearthrite Shamans). In some cases, I would set up Diminishing Returns the turn before, and it needs as little as Dark Ritual --> Diminishing Returns to win a game making hand disruption somewhat irrelevant.

2. As a general rule about ETW, if you feel that the opponent's deck can recover from 10-12 goblins (ie. packing Pernicious Deed, EE, etc.), I'd suggest go for a restrained ETW and keep a Dark Ritual for going off again later. A small band of 6-8 goblins can occupy the opponent for long enough for you to Tendrils them out. A few pointers of when to go off.

Blue decks:
-pay attention to the number of cards in their hand
-if the number of cards don't shift much, expect: 1-2 FOW and 1-2 soft counters (7 card hand); 1 FOW and 1-2 soft counters (4 card hand)
-Gitaxian Probe really helps here, but if you haven't drawn probe yet...
-if blue decks play threats aggressively, it means they have no counter magic
-if blue decks don't do much each turn, they probably have some counter spells

Blue decks with Counterbalance/Chalice Aggro decks without SB:
-Go for it whenever you can
-pay attention to the number of cards in their hand as it will indicate potential FOW (CB only)
-use Duress aggressively if you think CB/3sphere are coming down soon
-lay out your artifact mana early
-if they set up CBT/3sphere, you have almost no way of winning unless they are incompetent
-if they do have CB, go for it when they are tapped out and prey the blind flip doesn't bother you.
-ETW is ok early, but is pretty bad the longer you wait; a Silence might help you keep your Goblin Tokens from getting wiped

Blue decks with CB/Chalice Aggro decks with SB:
- -4x Silence, -1x Infernal Tutor/+3x Abrupt Decay, +2x Cabal Therapy (CB only)
- -4x Silence, -1x Ponder/+3x Abrupt Decay, +2x Chain of Vapors (Chalice Aggro)
- lay out your artifact mana early
-pay attention to the number of cards in their hand (CB only)
-Go for it when you feel they don't have counter magic (CB only)
-use discard aggressively
-Dig hard for abrupt decay early unless they play discard
-abrupt decay when they are relatively tapped out or when their hand is weak

Discard decks:
-Go for it when you can as they cannot interact with you outside of graveyard interactions
-DR is the "go to" here
-ETW early might work, but I wouldn't commit to it entirely as sweepers and many blockers might be annoying
-Ad Nauseam is great early, but may also be good anywhere above 13 life. If you Ad Nauseam, do not get into range of direct damage (Lightning Bolt or Deathrite Shaman)
-Dig hard for Burning Wish or Ad Nauseam and mana.
-PiF and IGG are ok if they don't have Deathrite Shaman
-play some artifact mana, and keep some in your hand so that discard or deed cannot stop you unless they draw them together

Combo without FOW:
-Silence = your counter magic. Save them and leave white open
-Go for Ad Nauseam asap, but a small army set of 4-6 will really put pressure on them
-TES is fast and resilient, this shouldn't be a problem

Combo with FOW:
-keep track of the number of cards in their hand
-Board in 2x Xantid Swarm and a Cabal Therapy or 2; board out Infernal Tutor, Ponder, Chrome Mox and maybe a Silence
-They run a lot of soft counters post board, so silence-effects are very precious here.
-Go off when you feel it is safe

Other decks:
-Do whatever you feel plays around their hate:
Burn: avoid Ad Nauseam unless you are on the play and you can kill them
Goblins: play out artifact mana to subvert Rishadan Port, avoid cracking fetchlands early
Death and Taxes: same as goblins
Lands: avoid Bojuka Bog

I hope this helped. Sorry the formatting is so terrible. I typed it up in a hurry. If there is any clarification needed, let me know.

[Jay_Gatz]

Played in a fun 8-man at the gp this weekend. Pairings were Dredge vs ANT, Show and tell vs high tide, TES mirror and belcher vs burn. Split the box with dredge after his hour and a half match against high tide.

[Endure2004]

Bryant, has Si Ning Li influenced you at all with regards to Time Spiral vs. Diminishing Returns? I know you too are close and he's been playing with Time Spiral in almost all of his recent successes. What are his opinions on it and your counter arguments?

This has been chronicled about 20 pages ago or so....look for it :)

[Bryant Cook]

This has been chronicled about 20 pages ago or so....look for it :)

Don't let Ning fool you. Even he doesn't think it's good.

[Asthereal]

He just couldn't find the damned Returns in his commons box? :wink:

[TheRedBaron]

Don't let Ning fool you. Even he doesn't think it's good.

I've been torn on both myself recently. Although DR is technically easier to cast in the situations when you need it, because most of the time your in top deck mode trying to rip a wish, you may not have the initial mana, and even though I like that you get to untap your lands off TS, though in this deck you may only have 1-2 lands in play. As a tide player as well, TS is legit IN THAT deck because it's a land-centric combo deck that's immune to wasteland.

I just feel like TS is slightly win more and "cute" when your showing off to inexperienced players. DR (as a desperation attempt; a la, I'm going to lose anyways, I can barely muster UU2 after wish) I feel has a slight edge in most situations in which you wish for it, IMO.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't know how many times I have to say it. Diminishing Returns is not a "Desperation Attempt" or "O-Shit" button. It's best used when not under a huge amount of pressure so that if it does fail there's always next turn.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I don't know how many times I have to say it. Diminishing Returns is not a "Desperation Attempt" or "O-Shit" button. It's best used when not under a huge amount of pressure so that if it does fail there's always next turn.

Beat Esperblade 2-0 tonight at my LGS. Game one with an Empty for 14 on turn two. Game two with a Diminishing Returns. Passed the turn, untapped and won.

Did I need to wish for returns? No. But he didn't have a clock.

Spun the wheel and: My 7 > His 7.

[phazonmutant]

Beat Esperblade 2-0 tonight at my LGS. Game one with an Empty for 14 on turn two. Game two with a Diminishing Returns. Passed the turn, untapped and won.

Did I need to wish for returns? No. But he didn't have a clock.

Spun the wheel and: My 7 > His 7.

The Diminishing Returns roulette is by far the best part about TES.

[Star|Scream]

Hey I've been trying to learn the deck, and was goldfishing. This scenario came up:

On the play against an unknown opponent, your hand is Gemstone mine, Brainstorm, ETW, Silence, Duress, Ponder, Infernal Tutor

Play gemstone, Ponder

You see
Burning Wish
LED
Lotus Petal

What do you do?

I was leaning towards shuffling since I don't see an out without at least one more mana source, and the brainstorm might not get there.



SPOILER ALERT:

The two cards under those three were Gemstone Mine & LED

[Asthereal]

I wouldn't shuffle. Draw Petal now. Draw LED next turn. Then play Brainstorm and proceed to win the game?
Even without the spoiler alert, chances of getting a third mana source are very high.

But the keep was a bit shaky. You have no accelleration whatsoever, and only one land.
Get that one land Wasted, and you might be in serious trouble. And there's no Probe to figure out how to play your hand best.

[jandax]

I was leaning towards shuffling since I don't see an out without at least one more mana source, and the brainstorm might not get there.



Your mana sources are the LED and Petal. You have a Brainstorm to dig deeper, and don't forget you're setting up not going off. Like what Asthereal did, you draw the petal with LED ontop of BW. Better hope you don't get hit with a Thoughtseize or Wasteland. Untap and draw the LED. From there you it really depends on what is ontop of your deck. Given that Gemstome Mine and LED were ontop, a gutsy decision to move in on turn three would be rewarded. I wouldn't shuffle either. I dunno if I'd keep that hand to be honest, vs. an unknown opponent...

[Lemnear]

I guess you can keep it with Double protection and Double cantrips. This should make it for a Turn 3 action unless you get blown by your ponder and Hit by Wasteland.

I side with drawing petal and LED floating. Next turn i would Brainstorm to Stick EtW Second from Top in any case and depending on the cards BS reveals, duress the Turn Off a Second Land or chantwalk. Turn 3 you can use the Second protection and/or the Infernal to go for EtW (duress/silence if you have a second land, Petal, LED, infernal, EtW = at least 10 gobbos here) or ad Nauseam depending in your t2 brainstorm

Hand is good vs combo and control but sux vs Tempo and aggro. The ponder is insane! It reveals big mana, Stormcount and a Second Tutor in Case you get thoughtseized Off your infernal. I have no clue why you would shuffle those away in favor of a random draw off ponder especially with Brainstorm still around.

Edit: a thoughtseize taking your Brainstorm however would be devastating. Against Tempo you have to Play petal before Brainstorm 4 daze

[Machahiko]

A thing that has bothered me for quite some time, but didn't ask your opinion about it if I remember correctly.

You have one land, gemstone mine. Your hand doesn't allow you to kill your opponent, you have two cantrips. Ponder and brainstorm.

Which do you play first? I usually lead with ponder, it allows me to see 3 cards and then shuffle if cards are bad. On next turn I can brainstorm and see new 3 fresh cards. Or would you rather brainstorm first, put one card to the top and then ponder, shuffling one useless card out?

Also, Bryant hasn't had the chance/time to update the sideboarding for each MU, and I'll have a tournament this weekend. Xantid Swarm is sided in against merfolk, SnT decks and other permission decks that run light/don't run removal?

[Lemnear]

A thing that has bothered me for quite some time, but didn't ask your opinion about it if I remember correctly.

You have one land, gemstone mine. Your hand doesn't allow you to kill your opponent, you have two cantrips. Ponder and brainstorm.

Which do you play first? I usually lead with ponder, it allows me to see 3 cards and then shuffle if cards are bad. On next turn I can brainstorm and see new 3 fresh cards. Or would you rather brainstorm first, put one card to the top and then ponder, shuffling one useless card out?

Also, Bryant hasn't had the chance/time to update the sideboarding for each MU, and I'll have a tournament this weekend. Xantid Swarm is sided in against merfolk, SnT decks and other permission decks that run light/don't run removal?

I would say that your #1 is to find a second land. If you Brainstorm First and fail to dig one and got hit by wasteland it's over. Not so if you lead with ponder. The only cards you want to shuffle back in some scenarios are AN, EtW and brickin moxen. Stay with ponder first in your case.

Have no advice for your SB. I'm with the Confidant + Therapy plan to fight my discard-heavy meta

[jin]

A thing that has bothered me for quite some time, but didn't ask your opinion about it if I remember correctly.

You have one land, gemstone mine. Your hand doesn't allow you to kill your opponent, you have two cantrips. Ponder and brainstorm.

Which do you play first? I usually lead with ponder, it allows me to see 3 cards and then shuffle if cards are bad. On next turn I can brainstorm and see new 3 fresh cards. Or would you rather brainstorm first, put one card to the top and then ponder, shuffling one useless card out?

Also, Bryant hasn't had the chance/time to update the sideboarding for each MU, and I'll have a tournament this weekend. Xantid Swarm is sided in against merfolk, SnT decks and other permission decks that run light/don't run removal?

The thing to remember is that brainstorm goes up in value the longer you hold it. Pondering first is usually the correct play. Yes, that is when you use Xantid Swarm. It's good against SnT, Reanimator, Merfolk, High Tide, etc.

[Star|Scream]

I have no clue why you would shuffle those away in favor of a random draw off ponder especially with Brainstorm still around.



I'm sorry. I'm very new with the deck.

[Lemnear]

I'm sorry. I'm very new with the deck.

np, we're here to help. Sry if I sound rude sometimes.

Dark Ritual, LED and Tutor/wish are golden flops off any cantrip. You need those raw acceleration to Tutor into buisness which means 7 mana for the Infernal->AN chain. If you calculate with Protection, mox imprint, bricking with Lands/moxen, etc you need to make it up with mana sources which give you more than 1 mana per card, which is obvious. Having Big mana and a Tutor/wish in a flop is a snap-keep in 95% of all cases

[Star|Scream]

Regarding mulligans,

If you do mulligan, and are then faced with a sub-par 6 card hand, how often would you go down to 5 cards?

[Lemnear]

Regarding mulligans,

If you do mulligan, and are then faced with a sub-par 6 card hand, how often would you go down to 5 cards?

You can give a few random examples that bug you and we can give advice for those Sample hands against specific or random opponents.

Some Starting 7 or mulled 6 aren't that bad as they appear on first sight. I rather sculpt for 2-3 turns than mull into oblivion. I only dismiss hands flooded with Lands and/or moxen instantly

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

You can give a few random examples that bug you and we can give advice for those Sample hands against specific or random opponents.

Some Starting 7 or mulled 6 aren't that bad as they appear on first sight. I rather sculpt for 2-3 turns than mull into oblivion. I only dismiss hands flooded with Lands and/or moxen instantly

Depends if I'm up a game or what I'm playing against (talking BUG or CB), but I'll generally keep a loose/greedy 6 before mulling to 5.

Lucksacking gets there... sometimes.

[Star|Scream]

You can give a few random examples that bug you and we can give advice for those Sample hands against specific or random opponents.

Some Starting 7 or mulled 6 aren't that bad as they appear on first sight. I rather sculpt for 2-3 turns than mull into oblivion. I only dismiss hands flooded with Lands and/or moxen instantly

I guess I'm thinking of 6-card hands with no mana source or maybe just a petal and a probe... or hands with chrome mox, petal, land, silence, silence. Hands where there's no real moves from the first turn, and you have to count on your first few draws to get there.

[Lemnear]

I guess I'm thinking of 6-card hands with no mana source or maybe just a petal and a probe... or hands with chrome mox, petal, land, silence, silence. Hands where there's no real moves from the first turn, and you have to count on your first few draws to get there.

Hands without initial mana are garbage because drawn Rituals or LED have no value. You can be fine with chrome mox feat. Imprint or a petal if your Hand includes a Brainstorm or ponder. Petal + Probe is no buisness i would keep in a starting 6 on the play unless the remaining cards are the real shit of mana like Dark Rituals/LED's so you only need a Tutor/wish or cantrip to GftT.

[jandax]

Depends if I'm up a game or what I'm playing against (talking BUG or CB), but I'll generally keep a loose/greedy 6 before mulling to 5.

Lucksacking gets there... sometimes.

I'm in the same boat, does this mean you never mull to five?

[Lemnear]

I'm in the same boat, does this mean you never mull to five?

Every mull likely needs an additional draw step to make up for it. While i have won with an insane mull to 5 + good ponder it's complete off to win against a competent Opponent with 4. Mull to 4 is a loss afaik. Rule of thumb for me: I rather loose a complete turn via cantrippin than mull into a random hand. Mulling to 5 requires me to fail fanning out ANY initial mana source AND the rest lacking raw mana to make up the lost cards

[Bryant Cook]

Cook’s Kitchen – Storm Hands IV (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2013/53008/cooks-kitchen-storm-hands-iv)

[goblinsplayer]

Cook’s Kitchen – Storm Hands IV (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2013/53008/cooks-kitchen-storm-hands-iv)

Do you really cut duress in this matchup? I think its a good way to get rid of trinisphere and also chalice.

[jandax]

I'd keep it in on the play game 2/3. And the article was quite helpful, thanks

[goblinsplayer]

went to a local tournament. went 3-1. first time playing storm in a tourney

round 1 vs burn
game 1: kill him with tendrils. Was lucky enough to not kill myself with ad nauseum
game 2: won with etw. He got land screwed and he didnt have the mana to deal the two damage that could have won him the game

round 2 vs esper stoneblade
game 1: somehow manage to pull it off after going through 3 discard spells
game 2: He just drowns me with discard and surgicals my burning wishes. counters everything i played. He drew extremely well...
game 3: I keep a hand that's weak to counterspells. He apparently has five in his opener. I die

round 3 vs reanimator
game 1: he doesnt have turn one force of will and i just kill him with tendrils turn one
game 2: he manages to get elesh norn out but, i just go double LED, play infernal tutor, search up ad nauseum, he does not have force.

round 4 vs unknown
game 1: I play ponder and pass. He plays grim lavamancer. ETW for 14 usually does it
game 2: ETW for 24, he doesnt have the pyroclasm

[Darkness]

With Bryant's current list, how have we been sideboarding against Tin Fins? I've tried 2 Therapy on the draw and 2 Xantids on the play. Also what are the SB options for GW enchantress?

[phazonmutant]

With Bryant's current list, how have we been sideboarding against Tin Fins? I've tried 2 Therapy on the draw and 2 Xantids on the play. Also what are the SB options for GW enchantress?

How is TinFins enough of a meta player to deserve dedicated sideboarding advice? I guess the deck has come a long way. Anyway, Xantid Swarm is awful against a deck without counterspells. If you're afraid of Silence, just Cabal Therapy for Silence... Just bring in all the discard and cut Silence, TinFins plays too well at instant speed.

For Enchantress, I would bring in a couple Chains and a couple of Abrupt Decay for the Silence. They'll bring in Leyline of Sanctity and they have Solitary and Elephant Grass, so it's important to have bounce.

[Darkness]

How is TinFins enough of a meta player to deserve dedicated sideboarding advice? I guess the deck has come a long way. Anyway, Xantid Swarm is awful against a deck without counterspells. If you're afraid of Silence, just Cabal Therapy for Silence... Just bring in all the discard and cut Silence, TinFins plays too well at instant speed.

For Enchantress, I would bring in a couple Chains and a couple of Abrupt Decay for the Silence. They'll bring in Leyline of Sanctity and they have Solitary and Elephant Grass, so it's important to have bounce.

You are correct Sir I'm still thinking of Old Reanimator. Ty for advice. I've been playing TES on MTGO and the deck is growing in popularity.

[Asthereal]

Played TES at a small tourney yesterday.
Report is up here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25634-TES-Eindhoven-3rd-of-March-2013&p=707840#post707840

NOTE: Only read if you just like to read reports, or if you want to learn how to NOT play this deck. :tongue:
(I was pretty terrible...)

[Endure2004]

split the finals at the March 2nd NELC. cliffnotes:

burn- win
maverick- mess up and still win
burn- lose (bad draws)
UWR delver- win
zombies- win
dredge- ID

top 8
mono black pox- win
maverick- win
RIP counterbalance- ID

[jin]

I've always thought the Tempo Thresh match up to be an easy one, but recently I was stomped by a Delver of Secrets and disruption on my cantrips. Any tips for this? I kept pretty strong hands both times, but it just didn't get there. I won the first game but lost both post board games due to soft counters on my cantrips.

Both game 2 and 3, I had business, rituals and cantrips, but a combination of Delver of Secrets and Burns just made the clock very short. When should I be really trying to do something against Tempo decks before I should start worrying about the clock?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I've always thought the Tempo Thresh match up to be an easy one, but recently I was stomped by a Delver of Secrets and disruption on my cantrips. Any tips for this? I kept pretty strong hands both times, but it just didn't get there. I won the first game but lost both post board games due to soft counters on my cantrips.

Both game 2 and 3, I had business, rituals and cantrips, but a combination of Delver of Secrets and Burns just made the clock very short. When should I be really trying to do something against Tempo decks before I should start worrying about the clock?

Keep land heavy hands. Silence and Past in Flames are all stars.

[evilGod]

I'm surprised you felt that was a good matchup. The primer lists it at 50-55%, and having played both sides of it I feel that 55% is being a little generous to TES. At my LGS, I've never seen any storm variant take a match against RUG in tournament, but that might say a little more about the experience of our storm players compared to the Delver players.

Any hand they keep with Delver and 2 pieces of disruption is going to be difficult to fight through before they draw/cantrip into more counters and kill you. I'm actually partial to bringing in Xantid Swarm as it's a silence that dodges Spell Pierce, and just going for Goblins early since they normally can't deal with them. I'm sure there's more advice from the better players than me though.

[Damoxx]

I've always thought the Tempo Thresh match up to be an easy one, but recently I was stomped by a Delver of Secrets and disruption on my cantrips. Any tips for this? I kept pretty strong hands both times, but it just didn't get there. I won the first game but lost both post board games due to soft counters on my cantrips.

Both game 2 and 3, I had business, rituals and cantrips, but a combination of Delver of Secrets and Burns just made the clock very short. When should I be really trying to do something against Tempo decks before I should start worrying about the clock?


Two weeks ago, I play tested T.E.S. again RUG Delver for about 6-7 games. Lost ~2 games, I think. Memory is fuzzy. But yes, an early EtW is backbreaking for them. Even 10 goblins is hard for them to deal with if they do not have Rough//Tumble.

Much like any combo deck, you force them (no pun intended) to have the correct answer immediately.

[thefringthing]

How is TinFins enough of a meta player to deserve dedicated sideboarding advice?It's definitely relevant enough on MTGO.

[jin]

Keep land heavy hands. Silence and Past in Flames are all stars.

That's my game plan, but I'm not going to mulligan a good 7 just because I didn't have more than 1 land. Should I?


I'm surprised you felt that was a good matchup. The primer lists it at 50-55%, and having played both sides of it I feel that 55% is being a little generous to TES. At my LGS, I've never seen any storm variant take a match against RUG in tournament, but that might say a little more about the experience of our storm players compared to the Delver players.

Any hand they keep with Delver and 2 pieces of disruption is going to be difficult to fight through before they draw/cantrip into more counters and kill you. I'm actually partial to bringing in Xantid Swarm as it's a silence that dodges Spell Pierce, and just going for Goblins early since they normally can't deal with them. I'm sure there's more advice from the better players than me though.

Generally speaking Silence and Duress shuts down 2 disruption hands. My opponent was loaded with 2x Spell Pierce, 1x Stifle and 1x Spell Snare. I'm just annoyed it got there because he was choking me off my cantrips.



Two weeks ago, I play tested T.E.S. again RUG Delver for about 6-7 games. Lost ~2 games, I think. Memory is fuzzy. But yes, an early EtW is backbreaking for them. Even 10 goblins is hard for them to deal with if they do not have Rough//Tumble.

Much like any combo deck, you force them (no pun intended) to have the correct answer immediately.

Yep, that's how I won game 1, but I can't reliably have ETW in my opening hand. He had Spell Snare waiting for my BW, so I had to get him off of that, but his Spell Pierce were hitting all of my cantrips.

[Machahiko]

PTQ 3-3. Started with good 2-0, but then ran into elves and actually lost 1-2. First game I was forced to play EtW or do nothing. Goblins were one turn too slow. In third game I kept on thinking, I have to be faster because I can be a lot faster. Opening hands were poor as hell, opening 7 was 5 lands 2 ponders, 6 was no lands at all (and even if I drew a land it would not have resulted in a kill.) and 5 was 5 lands. 4 was land ponder dark ritual and chain of vapor. I kept that 4 and almost won, but I didn't find duress/therapy fast enough to get MBT from his hand. I resumed to play 3-1 only to get paired twice against sneak and show which is a horrible matchup in my opinion. In the first game I had a fighting chance, but AdN didn't flip so well. Leading me to make decision whether do I want to win now and die trying, or pass the turn and try again next turn. I died fighting.

I just don't see how I'm supposed to win Sneaky Show, since every SnT will place either Sneak Attack or Griselbrand. If Griselbrand is placed into play and I don't put Xantid Swarm on play, I have very slim chances. If Sneak Attack is placed into play, it usually results in me dying on that exact turn. :(

[Azdraël]

Sneak should'nt be so hard. You are way faster than them and should carry enough discard MD to combo off turn 2/3. But well, misfortune happens sometimes.

[Endure2004]

Most sneak show players are good enough to use their cantrips to hide their sneak attacks and show and tells on top of their library. Try cabal therapy naming griselbrand, it may work better.

[Star|Scream]

Please excuse this question, as I am still learning the deck.

Can someone please explain the decisions involved in grabbing a wish target (IGG, PIF, DR) and then passing the turn. When would this be correct versus trying to sculpt to go off all in one turn?

I understand the decisions vary wildly based on the game state, but I'm still hoping to get some general guidelines.

Thanks!

[jin]

Please excuse this question, as I am still learning the deck.

Can someone please explain the decisions involved in grabbing a wish target (IGG, PIF, DR) and then passing the turn. When would this be correct versus trying to sculpt to go off all in one turn?

I understand the decisions vary wildly based on the game state, but I'm still hoping to get some general guidelines.

Thanks!

It's generally the correct play when you feel that you cannot produce enough mana on the combo turn. So when looking at your hand, if your hand is lacking rituals or LED's, you might consider Wishing for a target first and then passing the turn. This is usually done when you are expecting counter magic to not be a factor as that can really disrupt your plan. You might do this against decks with discard if you are holding a Brainstorm as that can easily hide your Diminishing Returns for the next turn. PIF is also good against discard as it inherently has a Flashback cost. IGG is usually used against Burn decks and fast aggro decks that don't use Counter magic or Discard magic. That said, there aren't too many of those type of decks any more. I find myself using IGG less and less. It is still good in some occasions though.

[Asthereal]

Actually, in the situation Jin suggests (with Wish + Brainstorm in hand) Reforge the Soul is really strong. You WIsh for it, put it on top of your deck with Brainstorm, play out artifact mana, and next turn you get seven new cards. Not sure whether this one interesting line of play makes up for the fact that Reforge usually just costs a mana more than Diminishing Returns...

[joemauer]

Please excuse this question, as I am still learning the deck.

Can someone please explain the decisions involved in grabbing a wish target (IGG, PIF, DR) and then passing the turn. When would this be correct versus trying to sculpt to go off all in one turn?

I understand the decisions vary wildly based on the game state, but I'm still hoping to get some general guidelines.

Thanks!

In drawn out games, your resources may become exhausted from counter magic and/discard. Against discard PiF is good, as Jin pointed out. Imagine if you have five lands in play and only one card in hand(b wish) while Liliana is tearing up your hand. Could you see yourself wishing for PiF here?

Same thing with DR and Iggy, there are probably some random corner cases where you need more cards, but only have four or five mana.

[Zombie]

Though it's probably a more reasonable plan for ANT, just deliberately baiting out stuff to drain the opponent's resources and then PiF them out is just super good (Probably more so in ANT, again). That Burning Wish? Yeah, turns out it was going to grab Cabal Therapy anyway.

[Bryant Cook]

Cook's Kitchen - One Round (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2013/53072/cooks-kitchen-one-round-nelc-03022013)

[jin]

Cook's Kitchen - One Round (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2013/53072/cooks-kitchen-one-round-nelc-03022013)

It really helps bring people back to reality when we can read about how Bryant Cook can make mistakes with the deck too. Thanks for sharing. Can't wait to read your next report piloting T.E.S.

[NQN]

Cook's Kitchen - One Round (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2013/53072/cooks-kitchen-one-round-nelc-03022013)

good article as always, but I really dont think that your mistake was based on not playing storm too often recently. It´s based on the attitute you had for that game. Once you start thinking about what will happen after you win this round, you usually loose some focus. Thats why I always set my mind to "Win this round" even if I play at a Grand Prix or events like that. You just got too excited, which is no big deal imho ;)

Alles Gute nachträglich aus Deutschland ;)

[jandax]

good article as always, but I really dont think that your mistake was based on not playing storm too often recently. It´s based on the attitute you had for that game. Once you start thinking about what will happen after you win this round, you usually loose some focus. Thats why I always set my mind to "Win this round" even if I play at a Grand Prix or events like that. You just got too excited, which is no big deal imho ;)

Alles Gute nachträglich aus Deutschland ;)

I think that happens to me a lot, and isn't something to take lightly. At the 3-0 point in a tournament the wheels fall off because I start thinking about standings and making it to top X. Liked the article, and wouldn't change a card on the front page. Played it today at a local for five rounds. Liked the idea of having Therapy, even though I never saw it.

R1: Elves. Win the die roll, go all in on a tutor to start the game and Ad Nauseum gets there. Game two he mulls to three. 14 goblins on my first turn get there.
R2: four color homebrew. Good opponent, former national champion amongst, not good against goblin tokens and Silence.
R3: Esper stoneblade. Game one he sits on a Scrubland his first four turns chaining discard spells. I topdeck a tutor with only a Silence, Ritual and Rite in my hand, all three duals and a City untapped. Silence resolves, tutor gets Ad Nauseum from 15 life to six and finds all that is needed. Game two I get discarded and beat down with swords and skulls. Game three was a hilarious punt. I mean, going off and not even having the card in your deck. The wheels have fallen off at this point. It was a good laugh, worth the story to tell.
R4 RUG Delver. Know the matchup, so does he. He draws better. 0-2
R5 Reanimator. I kept slow seven card hands both games and don't get any interaction from his end over the course of the two games. I figured disruption and cantrips will let me sculpt a hand that will beat his. He also had SnT/Omni in his 75. Played bad, real bad.

[Asthereal]

Might be my tiredness and alcohol level, but I cannot follow what you actually achieved. :cool:

[Bryant Cook]

Won an event (Around 40 people) this weekend with T.E.S! Had the mirror match in the finals against Ning.

[jin]

Won an event (Around 40 people) this weekend with T.E.S! Had the mirror match in the finals against Ning.

Congrats, are you still running the Cabal Therapy main? Will we be reading a report soon?

[Bryant Cook]

Congrats, are you still running the Cabal Therapy main? Will we be reading a report soon?

With the Therapy. No report.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

The single therapy in the main is very dirty with EtW.

Current sideboard is:

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Time Spiral
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony

Went 3-2 at my LGS the other day.

Affinity, 2-1
Goblins, 0-2
Merfolk, 0-2
Miracles, 2-1
4c Stoneblade, 2-0

Time Spiral won me a game. Diminishing Returns lost me a game because it exiled all three duals, and the only lands I drew were fetches.

Boo.

Goblins had Wasteland, Thalia, Port. Against fish, the mono-blue-dudes hand generally beats an early EtW. Played EtW both games, and couldn't get there.

[Koby]

What the shit? You lost to Goblins and Merfolk? Is this 2008?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

What the shit? You lost to Goblins and Merfolk? Is this 2008?

Apparently. The guy playing Merfolk was splashing red for Electrickery. He's a total scrub, too. He made day two at Denver with Maverick. What did he lose to? Obvious. Obvious.

Locally, most people know what I'm on. Limited card pools, too. Can't get Legacy cards? Play fish.

[jin]

The single therapy in the main is very dirty with EtW.

Current sideboard is:

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Time Spiral
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony

Went 3-2 at my LGS the other day.

Affinity, 2-1
Goblins, 0-2
Merfolk, 0-2
Miracles, 2-1
4c Stoneblade, 2-0

Time Spiral won me a game. Diminishing Returns lost me a game because it exiled all three duals, and the only lands I drew were fetches.

Boo.

Goblins had Wasteland, Thalia, Port. Against fish, the mono-blue-dudes hand generally beats an early EtW. Played EtW both games, and couldn't get there.

I expecting to read about how you ripped someone's hand apart with Cabal Therapy. That didn't happen.

How are things with Chain of Vapors you guys? I've been finding myself wanting to see Echoing Truths every now and then as the one extra mana seems to have little effect on me. I usually cast bounce spells end of turn anyway. On several occasions, I've had double Leyline of Sanctity played on me with only one bounce spell. I've had a few Spirit Tokens, Angel Tokens and Goblin Tokens to deal with. I just think that without the Shattering Spree/Hull Breach now, the higher casting cost would also help to avoid some Chalice decks (not that they are too common, but could be a factor).

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I expecting to read about how you ripped someone's hand apart with Cabal Therapy. That didn't happen.

How are things with Chain of Vapors you guys? I've been finding myself wanting to see Echoing Truths every now and then as the one extra mana seems to have little effect on me. I usually cast bounce spells end of turn anyway. On several occasions, I've had double Leyline of Sanctity played on me with only one bounce spell. I've had a few Spirit Tokens, Angel Tokens and Goblin Tokens to deal with. I just think that without the Shattering Spree/Hull Breach now, the higher casting cost would also help to avoid some Chalice decks (not that they are too common, but could be a factor).

Abrupt Decay answers Chalice. I'm content with Chain of Vapor.

[jin]

Abrupt Decay answers Chalice. I'm content with Chain of Vapor.

Yes, but often, chalice is run alongside other hatE like trinisphere or hate bears. Echoing truth ensures your bounce can hit those as well.

[jandax]

Abrupt Decay answers Chalice. I'm content with Chain of Vapor.

@Echoing Truths question:
As corner as some cases are where ET is better, the same can be said for CoV. If it makes one feel better or their meta is ever so more predictable, then the swap or split should be warranted.

[Bryant Cook]

@Echoing Truths question:
As corner as some cases are where ET is better, the same can be said for CoV. If it makes one feel better or their meta is ever so more predictable, then the swap or split should be warranted.

I used Chain of Vapor as a storm engine last week to kill my opponent. I had a Lion's Eye Diamond and a Lotus Petal, Truth would've been too expensive and wouldn't have bounced both.

[Megadeus]

Obviously in a Meta full of COTV Chain is a bit worse... But I think in an SCG Meta Vapor is better because you are more likely to see stuff like Thalia and other random Hatebears that Chain is a Bit Better.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I used Chain of Vapor as a storm engine last week to kill my opponent. I had a Lion's Eye Diamond and a Lotus Petal, Truth would've been too expensive and wouldn't have bounced both.

Did this the other day, but it was for showboating.

[jandax]

yeah that's kind of what I meant, showboating. I guess the closing arguement for Chain is that it can be used to build storm on your own artifact mana.

[jin]

I used Chain of Vapor as a storm engine last week to kill my opponent. I had a Lion's Eye Diamond and a Lotus Petal, Truth would've been too expensive and wouldn't have bounced both.

Doesn't that go against the purpose of why you bring in bounce? I was under the impression that Chain of Vapors gets sided in for removing large enchantments and hate bears. I didn't think you bring it in to build storm.

I think it's great that you can do it. I just don't think we should keep a card because of that reason and neglect the fact that it's simply not as good as removing multiple threats.

[Megadeus]

The fact of 1 mana vs 2 I think is the determining factor. With Thalia out chain costs 2 which is much easier than 3 for echoing truth

[Bryant Cook]

Doesn't that go against the purpose of why you bring in bounce? I was under the impression that Chain of Vapors gets sided in for removing large enchantments and hate bears. I didn't think you bring it in to build storm.

I think it's great that you can do it. I just don't think we should keep a card because of that reason and neglect the fact that it's simply not as good as removing multiple threats.

I didn't say I brought it in to use it as a Storm engine. There was nothing to bounce and I had a Burning Wish in hand. I needed a way to generate storm and Chain does that while being the most cost effective card. Truths time is gone in my eyes, the printing of Abrupt Decay made that very clear.

[Koby]

Chain of Vapor is awesome in its versatility. I always include at least a couple in all Storm decks I run.

[phazonmutant]

Why do you guys think ANT has been doing well over multiple tournaments, but TES has only done well recently in SCG Edison? (props to Bryant, Ning, and John Gatza)
I feel that TES is the stronger deck, so perhaps it has seen much less adoption outside the New England area? To the Euros - how common is TES vs. something like Cabal ANT or DDFT?

I think the only TES pilots I've ever seen are Jupiter games people, me and Megadeus in Atlanta, and Koby in Cali.

[.dk]

We have some local TES players in Colorado as well. I was playing it for a bit, but haven't picked it up for quite a while. Clown of Tresserhorn is our local TES shark though - have to say I was rather disappointed he didn't take it to GP Denver this year.

I also agree that this has always felt like the stronger deck vs. ANT to me. The wasteland "vulnerability" is an illusion because TES goes off so much quicker, and has the best Ad Nauseums ever. I honestly can't see why you'd want to wait around until T3-4 to win with Past in Flames with Deathrite Shaman everywhere.

[Megadeus]

I mea it is probably due to the mana base. Players feel like they are already taking a chance on a combo deck and they feel like the mana base is too risky. Also when people hear of Tendrils decks in Legacy they hear of ANT and not TES as much. ANT is a more proven commodity as well. I recently traded some of my TES stuff, but I may still attempt to borrow stuff to play it again at SCG ATL in April.

[tride]

To the Euros - how common is TES vs. something like Cabal ANT or DDFT?

For what I know, TES is the most played storm combo in Helsinki and probably in whole Finland. Belcher seems to be the second, and hardly no one plays DDFT. ANT goes somewhere near belcher. Last weekend there was a legacy tournament in Helsinki and I heard there were 4 TES and something like 20-25 players. One of them split the finals with some Show and Tell deck, if I understood right.

[Koby]

I find ANT to be less consistent than TES as well, based on my own testing and tournament experience. Being the slower deck, ANT has more issues with cards like Counterbalance & Deathrite Shaman than does TES. This is a big enough issue to warrant playing TES.

[phazonmutant]

I find ANT to be less consistent than TES as well, based on my own testing and tournament experience. Being the slower deck, ANT has more issues with cards like Counterbalance & Deathrite Shaman than does TES. This is a big enough issue to warrant playing TES.

Obviously I think that's true too, but it doesn't answer the question of why ANT has been doing better than TES. It's not particularly close, either. It could be that we're both wrong about TES being better, but I'm trying to see if anyone has a good alternative hypothesis.

[TheArchitect]

Why do you guys think ANT has been doing well over multiple tournaments, but TES has only done well recently in SCG Edison? (props to Bryant, Ning, and John Gatza)
I feel that TES is the stronger deck, so perhaps it has seen much less adoption outside the New England area? To the Euros - how common is TES vs. something like Cabal ANT or DDFT?

I think the only TES pilots I've ever seen are Jupiter games people, me and Megadeus in Atlanta, and Koby in Cali.


As an upstate New Yorker, I am also baffled with how ANT is fairly consistently a "tier 1" deck while TES is not. I think I've played against ANT like once or twice in my entire legacy career while I play against TES almost every tournament, sometimes multiple times a tournament. Also, to me it seems pretty apparent that TES is better in almost every regard.

I think a big part ANTs success is that ANT is just easier to play, and therefore played more often, often times by grinders. Compared to TES it is a pretty linear deck. You only have a couple ways to about getting the storm you need, and you have even less interaction to worry about because of the whole basics thing. A novice storm/legacy player would do better with ANT than TES, only because of the learning curve. This makes ANT the go-to deck for players who might be really good magic players, but are only playing storm because it is good that week, in that meta, and don't actually have much experience with the archtype, or maybe even with Legacy.

[Basaka]

TES has more lines of play, which may result in a higher skill cap and more punishing when a play mistake is made.

ANT really only has one goal - to be able to tendrils for lethal. TES however has alternative kill methods such as EtW, grapeshot, as well as having a wishboard. The fundamental speed of the deck also compresses decision-making towards the first few turns of the game which again give more room for error.

Just my 0.02

[Zombie]

I wouldn't discount ANT's better long game or that extra resiliene basics and maindeck PiF give that quickly. Few plans survive contact with the enemy. Cabal Rit and tutor chains just have a ton of raw power, something which at times feels missing from TES - it's explosive but peters out fast. Cabal Rit also makes ANT's PiFs much, much better than TES's at the cost of worse Ad Nauseams. Probe and a heavy discard suite are pretty nuts, too. That said, ANT is also a bit simpler to pilot.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I wouldn't discount ANT's better long game or that extra resiliene basics and maindeck PiF give that quickly. Few plans survive contact with the enemy. Cabal Rit and tutor chains just have a ton of raw power, something which at times feels missing from TES - it's explosive but peters out fast. Cabal Rit also makes ANT's PiFs much, much better than TES's at the cost of worse Ad Nauseams. Probe and a heavy discard suite are pretty nuts, too. That said, ANT is also a bit simpler to pilot.

ANT durdles too much.

[Lans89]

I played a lot of ANT and Dark Confidant is the card I relied on the most in all the matches I've won. It helps you to fight trough all the discard decks and also gives you the edge versus control decks. I'm not the only guy siding that card, and it might have helped ANT survive the current meta.

ANT has the tools to win in the late game and can rebuilt wrecked hands. However, because it is the slower combo deck it has to win trough Past in Flames 90% of the time and therefor suffers from DRS and RIP... But that's why a couple of Dark Confidant beatings combited with a tutor-chain-tendrils often is the way to go.

Note: I'm not saying ANT is better than TES, I also play TES and won't ever call it weaker. I'm also not advocating for Dark Confidant in TES sideboards, allthough I''ve seen some people running it.

[Megadeus]

I just love TES sometimes just going... Land Rit rit, petal mox wish/tutor make 12 dudes go? The ETW plan against Leyline is sick. Also having silence in combo mirrors = insane.

[jin]

I think a big part ANTs success is that ANT is just easier to play... This makes ANT the go-to deck for players who might be really good magic players, but are only playing storm because it is good that week, in that meta, and don't actually have much experience with the archtype, or maybe even with Legacy.


I wouldn't discount ANT's better long game or that extra resiliene basics and maindeck PiF give that quickly. Few plans survive contact with the enemy. Cabal Rit and tutor chains just have a ton of raw power, something which at times feels missing from TES - it's explosive but peters out fast. Cabal Rit also makes ANT's PiFs much, much better than TES's at the cost of worse Ad Nauseams. Probe and a heavy discard suite are pretty nuts, too. That said, ANT is also a bit simpler to pilot.

Quoted for truth. I think ANT is very linear and much easier to play. It's all about powering out the mana to drop Ad Nauseam or Past in Flames. TES has the same type of power in experienced hands, but it is more of a deck of finesse than power (and that's why I like it).

The fact that ANT can just Cabal Ritual with Threshold and Ad Nauseam makes it far easier to play than Dark Ritual, Rite of Flames into Ad Nauseam. That said, maybe Bryant should mock up a list for beginners: Baby-TES, the almost EPIC storm. Something that'll get new players familiar with the Black and Red without the complications of different Burning Wish routes and multiple storm engines.

For awhile, people LOVED the idea of 2x Ad Nauseams. That made the deck simpler.



ANT has the tools to win in the late game and can rebuilt wrecked hands.


TES has the same tools, but has more ways to rebuild wrecked hands. As I mentioned in the ANT thread replying to you, Brainstorm, Diminishing Returns, Ad Nauseam, and Past in Flames make discard a minor issue. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11184-DTB-ANT-(Ad-Nauseam-Tendrils)&p=710191&viewfull=1#post710191

[Endure2004]

The amount of experience required to play T.E.S. correctly greatly surpasses the amount required to play A.N.T.. Mostly because of burning wish. Anyone can win with infernal tutor in to ad nauseum if they can count, but burning wish and silence push the difficulty level of the deck over the top. Sequencing on the combo turn is much more complicated than with A.N.T., and you don't have to always be aware of what options you can tutor for from your sideboard. Burning wish is the power and the curse of the deck.... it is so versatile and powerful, but makes it very difficult to play / learn.

[Zombie]

TES PiF != ANT PiF, just as ANT AdN != TES AdN.
Speaking of Burning Wish, one thing the raw power of Cabal Rit enables is having a Grim Tutor in the board as a Wish target, so you can tutor chain with Wishes as well.

[lordofthepit]

I wanted to discuss cantripping with more experienced TES players.

In most decks, the following tenets hold:
1) Wait as long as possible before Brainstorming to maximize value, particularly with a fetch effect available.
2) Play cantrips like Preordain (or Gitaxian Probe if not using for information) without a shuffle effect before using Ponder, then finally Brainstorm
3) If playing against discard, use it to protect important pieces, which is something I won't address

As far as #1, I will certainly Brainstorm more aggressively with a slower combo deck or a tempo deck than I would with Miracles, but it seems like TES takes it to another level. Often a mainphase Brainstorm is enough to setup a kill.

More subtle is the ability to place a bomb on top of library, lay some LEDs and crack them in response to another cantrip, which brings me to my second point. It seems that sometimes I will play Ponder with a Brainstorm in hand, dig 3 deep, and then realize that I would have had the kill if I led with Brainstorm first. Or I'd fire off an "extra" Probe (i.e. reveals no new information) before Brainstorming to get an extra card deeper to find out the same thing. In addition, this deck doesn't run that many fetchlands and the Infernal Tutors are too valuable to use as a shuffle effect, so it seems to me that leading with Brainstorm before Ponder often makes sense.

So my question is "when playing this deck, do the normal rules of sequencing cantrips which apply to normal decks break down?" How often do you lead with Brainstorm for these reasons?

[TheRedBaron]

So my question is "when playing this deck, do the normal rules of sequencing cantrips which apply to normal decks break down?" How often do you lead with Brainstorm for these reasons?

As you pointed out, it highly depends on your hand, if on play/draw, etc. So, no, it doesn't follow the rules, "cantrip X, when condition Y is met".

I've done Plenty of blind brainstorms into turn 1 kills. I've also done plenty of Brainstorms into turn 1 brainstorm locks, for 2 turns.

Edit Like turn 1 Main phase brainstorm into 2 Lotus Petal for instance, having dark rit, RoF and AN in hand. If you not sure what your playing against I would probably ponder or git robe first. I've done plenty of Git Probes before even playing a land on turn 1... Control Pilots hate that.

[Megadeus]

If I have a very good hand missing one piece I'll fire off a t1 main phase brainstorm just to try and go off. Otherwise your points are sold one's

[Lemnear]

I disagree.

I rather play land-go instead of T1 Brainstorm for the nuts. In case of discard you can hide Key pieces with Brainstorm in response or draw an additional card before Brainstorm Turn 2 and make up for the invested mana via a Second landdrop. If you Turn 1 Brainstorm, you have to make up the invested mana AND the Brainstorm with the 3 cards revealed which requires A combination of Petal or Mox paired with LED or Ritual (adding more than 1 mana per invested card) to return the cardinvestment in a manaboost. Additional Information via Probe may affect the decision if it reveals shit like Daze + spell Pierce but no FoW which would ruin your gameplan if you pass the turn

[Megadeus]

Im a gambling man. Ill take the chance!

[jin]

Can trips are so hard to understand. I'd argue that they are more difficult to master than the opening post opening hands. It really depends on the match up, the board state, cards in hand, what your opponent knows about you and what you know about your opponent. Luckily gitaxian probe has made that a lot easier.

I think without knowing what my opponent is playing and needing to brainstorm for a final piece to my win con, I'd rather wait a turn as well. It just seems unlikely and the investment is just too large to go unprotected.

The versatility of this deck doesn't help with its cantrip decision making.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

If you know you can't win on turn one, Ponder or hold up Brainstorm.

Otherwise, I main phase Brainstorm blind on the play everyday twice on Sundays.

[Megadeus]

Especially in G1 when they don't know what I'm on. They don't know to mull to FOW and that is the only card they can have