[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Megadeus]

That is kinda what I was thinking as well just wanted to confirm what I thought.

[phazonmutant]

Bob is just way too slow for this deck, you want to kill them before way before he would do anything.

Are you sure that's true? We don't try to be balls-to-the-walls fast in certain matchups like UW Miracles. If the meta were filled with control, I think Bob would be excellent. However in the current meta, our board space is super tight and we need other slots more.

[Lemnear]

Are you sure that's true? We don't try to be balls-to-the-walls fast in certain matchups like UW Miracles. If the meta were filled with control, I think Bob would be excellent. However in the current meta, our board space is super tight and we need other slots more.

The question is, if you rather have a confidant drawing random cards or additional disruption/Protection in the same SB slots. You'll likely want dark confidant to draw you into disruption and gas (Gas you may invested in confidant before). Therefore you can play confidant for the grind against Control (unlikely to work) or add more disruption/protection without passing the Turn for confidant to reveal exactly those duress/silence/therapy.

[Jay_Gatz]

Are you sure that's true? We don't try to be balls-to-the-walls fast in certain matchups like UW Miracles. If the meta were filled with control, I think Bob would be excellent. However in the current meta, our board space is super tight and we need other slots more.

Assuming we had space for bob in the board could you justify bringing in 3-4 additional cards against miracles? I'm a huge fan of the card but it doesn't belong in TES

Edit: even though slower decks like miracles don't have direct pressure or a clock most of the time that doesn't mean we don't want to just kill them. Every turn we wait thhey get more resources to fight us with.

[testing32]

I have a scenario for you guys that I have run across a few times. I'm not sure which is the correct way to go.

You are playing against a blue deck (RUG, Miracles, Esperblade). You have a good hand on the play which cannot win on the first turn and contains probe and ponder.

Example hand would be - probe, ponder, gemstone, scalding tarn, rite of flame, rite of flame, dark ritual

Now, do you probe first and see what you have to fight through or do you ponder saving the probe for the combo turn?

[leegoo]

If I 100% knew the deck I was playing against...

I'd Gemstone Mine < Ponder vs. Esperblade (if they ran discard) or BUG
I'd play Tarn and say go against the others.

[testing32]

If I 100% knew the deck I was playing against...

I'd Gemstone Mine < Ponder vs. Esperblade (if they ran discard) or BUG
I'd play Tarn and say go against the others.

You would play for the long game against Miracles as well?

Edit - could you explain what your thinking a bit more? For example if you probed rug you could check for stifle. By sitting there against Miracles you may let them slam a cb while they have no other protection. What pros and cons are you weighing here?

[leegoo]

You would play for the long game against Miracles as well?

Edit - could you explain what your thinking a bit more? For example if you probed rug you could check for stifle. By sitting there against Miracles you may let them slam a cb while they have no other protection. What pros and cons are you weighing here?

Let me answer your question with a question. What are you hoping to see in your top 3 cards if you ponder on t1, even if you know 100% what you're sitting down from?

You obviously need an action spell. It's also highly possible that you need a protection spell.

Let's say you ponder t1 and hit duress, land, land. You can't reasonably keep those, so you shuffle. Now you've spent your ponder, and you're not just on the back foot, you're losing, badly. You now need to rattle 2 out of your next 3 draws off to have a chance and you have no way to manipulate that. What if you get the burning wish/IT, but the protection you find is silence?

Also, if they have CB, they can't slam it on their turn 1.

Basically, I'm saying you aren't winning on turn 2 barring a magic christmas land ponder... so digging one deeper (and being able to draw 1-2 cards then shuffle away the unwanted) is worth the turn TO ME.

I hardly ever burn a probe on t1 if all it's doing is cantripping for me. Seeing their hand is useful, but you don't have much to do about it. You see stifle, break fetchland and get volcanic island, then what? Go back to ponder (now making it a "ponderlock" if you decide to keep 1-2 mediorce cards), or hope wasteland isn't in your future?

I'm not saying my way is always right (all this comes from somebody who plays way more Doomsday than TES the last year or so, which is certainly a different beast altogether). I'm just saying that you are already basically putting your eggs in the ponder basket when you keep that hand. You need to make that ponder as good as you possibly can.

[testing32]

I'm not saying my way is always right (all this comes from somebody who plays way more Doomsday than TES the last year or so, which is certainly a different beast altogether). I'm just saying that you are already basically putting your eggs in the ponder basket when you keep that hand. You need to make that ponder as good as you possibly can.

This is good stuff. Thanks for the perspective.

[leegoo]

actually the more I look at it the more I think I might go all in against CB/Top.

On the reasoning that I don't think your hand can feasibly beat any disruption spell other than Counterbalance.

[phazonmutant]

Assuming we had space for bob in the board could you justify bringing in 3-4 additional cards against miracles? I'm a huge fan of the card but it doesn't belong in TES

Edit: even though slower decks like miracles don't have direct pressure or a clock most of the time that doesn't mean we don't want to just kill them. Every turn we wait thhey get more resources to fight us with.

I'm not sold that Bob is good in this deck either, but I think it's valuable to explore the scenarios in which he might be good. I know people have tried him in the past, and he's always been very impressive out of ANT against control.

I think that if the Force of Will combo players were to switch to Miracles or Esperblade, switching the 2-of Xantid Swarm to 2 Dark Confidant would help those matchups greatly. Based on experience from myself and friends on both sides of the table, Dark Confidant is pretty much game over if he sticks for a turn or two, and those decks can't afford to both leave in wraths and Swords against TES. If you draw Bob, great, he can take over a game on his own. If not, great, you won quickly. It's kinda like we get to play 2 more huge bomb spells without playing 2 more 4-5 drops.

Our gameplan against Miracles is not exclusively to win quickly. The matchup description on the primer puts it pretty well - we go off when we're ready. With Bob in play, we gain resources faster and better than they do.



I have a scenario for you guys that I have run across a few times. I'm not sure which is the correct way to go.

You are playing against a blue deck (RUG, Miracles, Esperblade). You have a good hand on the play which cannot win on the first turn and contains probe and ponder.

Example hand would be - probe, ponder, gemstone, scalding tarn, rite of flame, rite of flame, dark ritual

Now, do you probe first and see what you have to fight through or do you ponder saving the probe for the combo turn?

Most often I would probe on turn 1, but most often I don't know what I'm playing against. Probe will tell me if I need to dig for protection, play around Stifle, etc.

Ponder's tougher. If they have Wasteland and seem likely to play it, I'll lead on a fetch and Ponder t2. If not, I want to keep my velocity up - it might take 2 or more cantrips to find the tutor alone. I never want to be mana-constrained going forwards. Ponder could very easily reveal protection or a tutor and another cantrip, and I want to be able to use a cantrip and something else turn 2.

Once I've found a tutor I'll prioritize protection, but before that I'll always shuffle off Ponder.


Let's say you ponder t1 and hit duress, land, land. You can't reasonably keep those, so you shuffle. Now you've spent your ponder, and you're not just on the back foot, you're losing, badly. You now need to rattle 2 out of your next 3 draws off to have a chance and you have no way to manipulate that. What if you get the burning wish/IT, but the protection you find is silence?

I see what you're saying, but you're not counting your chance to hit more cantrips. Doomsday is a very different animal from TES - we're almost always trying to maximize velocity instead of focusing on land drops and setting up a doomsday engine (heh). You're looking for usually 6 mana and essentially 2 spells, whereas we're looking for either 5 spells and 6 mana or a few spells and 7+ mana. It's pretty much never correct to Brainstorm t1 with DDFT, but not unreasonable at all for TES.

[leegoo]

Phaz -

I agree with what you're saying, but the times you *would* Brainstorm T1 with TES are the times when it was likely to win you the game. (That is, your hand is very close to killing, but missing something) Otherwise, it is *generally wrong to bs t1. All I'm saying is that this ponder is not going to win you the game on t1 regardless of what you hit. It's also unlikely it's going to win you the game t2 against the listed decks. (RUG in this case) To win on t2 say, you need your opponent to actually be holding absolutely nothing to interact (even daze will stop you currently) AND for your ponder to not be a miss.
You can GP and be sure, but considering you already know what you're facing, you can already be reasonably sure that rug has some way to interact in the first two turns if your opponent is competent and kept 7. I don't want to probe before I ponder, in case I need to draw 2 of the cards and then shuffle the 3rd away with the fetch.

I know there are times to ponder t1, probe t1, or both t1... but I don't think that grip / matchup is one of them. (I also don't think that 7 is something I would keep against U/W or RUG for what it's worth)

This is only pertaining to RUG. I am fine with your line vs. U/W (as stated in my last post, you can only really beat CB anyways and you almost certainly can't win g1 after it hits play) and vs. BUG in my first post.

[Lemnear]

I've done a lot of T1 Brainstorms off a Petal or a Mox to find a Land (and Cover my Tutor on Top of my Deck), just saying.

You can even read that in my latest report. A generalisation of T1 Brainstorms in TES isn't possible

[leegoo]

Lem -
We all understand that there are situations it is right. It's 100% off topic pertaining to this.

it was a good report btw.

[Lemnear]

Lem -
We all understand that there are situations it is right. It's 100% off topic pertaining to this.

it was a good report btw.

The laurels go to the amazing playgroup

[TBryant23]

Are you sure that's true? We don't try to be balls-to-the-walls fast in certain matchups like UW Miracles. If the meta were filled with control, I think Bob would be excellent. However in the current meta, our board space is super tight and we need other slots more.

I played Bob in the deck when Mental Misstep was legal/first printed and he was amazing. First turn ritual, duress, bob was so good. I also had a sb plan of a few smaller storm turns, something like a few rituals and a small tendrils/empty versus an outright kill, and bob was great at fueling these and also finishing the game.

[Megadeus]

Went 3-0-1 and lost in top 8...
Round 1 vs BG Pox
I probably punted G1 and lose. G2 he has liliana on board and I have led, chrome mox and lotus petal. I draw burning wish and wish for pif. A few turns later I draw a dark ritual and do my thing. At one point I can bring wish and into goblins but im scared of pulse so I cast ponder and roll the dice. Finds an LED and that gets me my mana to cast diminishing returns. Returns finds the good stuff.
G3 I win on T2 with goblins. He didnt find pulse.

Round 2 RUG Delver
G1 he stifles one of my LEDs after a burning wish and it doesn't get there because im at 1.
G2 We both realize you can't stifle LED. I let it go. Silence resolves and he dies.
G3 he keeps a sketchy hand But I see he has a stifle. I cast ad nauseam knowing I can't go for goblins. I then go to tendrils him and he scoops. Right after he scoops we both realize the stifle. I forgot about it!

Round 3 Jund
Not much to say. G2 he surgicals my burning wish after I crack my leds so I chain some infernals and make dudes.

Draw into top 8.

Top 8 UW Delver
He does the tempo thing. He draws really really well and I cant win. I almost won game 2 but empty for 8 came a turn to late

[phazonmutant]

Round 2 RUG Delver
G1 he stifles one of my LEDs after a burning wish and it doesn't get there because im at 1.
G2 We both realize you can't stifle LED. I let it go. Silence resolves and he dies.
G3 he keeps a sketchy hand But I see he has a stifle. I cast ad nauseam knowing I can't go for goblins. I then go to tendrils him and he scoops. Right after he scoops we both realize the stifle. I forgot about it!

Wat...

Congrats? (Were you playing against Charles?)

[Megadeus]

Wat...

Congrats? (Were you playing against Charles?)

I played against something with a J... Ive seen him before and I let him borrow a Volcanic... Damn His name always escapes me.

Yeah I forgot that you cant stifle a mana source... That was awkward halfway through game 2 when we realized it. Again Justice in game 3 though!

Also Props and Slops

Props:
-Past in Flames. Great against discard! I finally learned how to use it!
-Bryant Cook for playing that insane game against UWR Tempo. That game taught me to be patient.
-The top of my deck. Thanks for the sick rips!

Slops:
-Not knowing how Lions Eye Diamond works. Goddammit.
-Chipotle for not having any corn when I went to get a damn burrito!
-My Top 8 Opponent for not splitting with me. Also beating me with my stifles I let him borrow. Dick

[Lemnear]

Went 3-0-1 and lost in top 8...
Round 1 vs BG Pox
I probably punted G1 and lose. G2 he has liliana on board and I have led, chrome mox and lotus petal. I draw burning wish and wish for pif. A few turns later I draw a dark ritual and do my thing. At one point I can bring wish and into goblins but im scared of pulse so I cast ponder and roll the dice. Finds an LED and that gets me my mana to cast diminishing returns. Returns finds the good stuff.
G3 I win on T2 with goblins. He didnt find pulse.

-snip-

Top 8 UW Delver
He does the tempo thing. He draws really really well and I cant win. I almost won game 2 but empty for 8 came a turn to late

That BG matchup reads like mine against the GB Nic Fit in my latest Report. Wishing for PIF to turn it active later is key unless they pair the discard with Shaman, Pox and Nic Fit thankfully don't do.

In my experience a 3-Swing-EtW is always too late. Too much Time to find and pop Explosives/Deed/Pulse even if you are on the play and drop them Turn 1. I must be really under pressure to EtW for less than 12 gobbos against anything with creatures so I still have a 2-Swing-kill Even if they drop a creature like DRS

[Megadeus]

That BG matchup reads like mine against the GB Nic Fit in my latest Report. Wishing for PIF to turn it active later is key unless they pair the discard with Shaman, Pox and Nic Fit thankfully don't do.

In my experience a 3-Swing-EtW is always too late. Too much Time to find and pop Explosives/Deed/Pulse even if you are on the play and drop them Turn 1. I must be really under pressure to EtW for less than 12 gobbos against anything with creatures so I still have a 2-Swing-kill Even if they drop a creature like DRS

I had 3 lands in play, a lotus petal in hand, LED in Hand, and Empty. I drew dark ritual. It was basically one turn too late. He had double delver, I then drew Xantid Swarm to chump one delver and actually swing the race in my favor, but he drew Geist of Saint Traft. Then I still had Petal and LED with lands in play and Top deck infernal tutor, but I was a mana short of Killing him, and even then he (surprisingly) had one card left in hand and it happened to be a MB Trap. MB Trap from a tempo deck was the last thing I expected. Looking back at it, knowing he was playing SFM and Batterskull, I wouldn't actually have kept my hand, but it had protection an LED and Empty with a ponder and I felt like it could get there. Oh well.

[Lemnear]

I had 3 lands in play, a lotus petal in hand, LED in Hand, and Empty. I drew dark ritual. It was basically one turn too late. He had double delver, I then drew Xantid Swarm to chump one delver and actually swing the race in my favor, but he drew Geist of Saint Traft. Then I still had Petal and LED with lands in play and Top deck infernal tutor, but I was a mana short of Killing him, and even then he (surprisingly) had one card left in hand and it happened to be a MB Trap. MB Trap from a tempo deck was the last thing I expected. Looking back at it, knowing he was playing SFM and Batterskull, I wouldn't actually have kept my hand, but it had protection an LED and Empty with a ponder and I felt like it could get there. Oh well.

Nevermind, shit happens. MBT from tempo in mean.

[PartyMonster]

Is diminishing return the best option avalible?

[phazonmutant]

Is diminishing return the best option avalible?

We've discussed this a lot in the past. Look at Ning (Endure2004)'s report from January 23 for some discussion of Time Spiral. The consensus is that DimRet is the best option between it, Reforge the Soul, and Time Spiral.

[Megadeus]

We've discussed this a lot in the past. Look at Ning (Endure2004)'s report from January 23 for some discussion of Time Spiral. The consensus is that DimRet is the best option between it, Reforge the Soul, and Time Spiral.

When I had the mana, I usually liked Reforge a bit more, but Returns is cheaper and there was a lot of times that I could only make 4 mana after a wish. Time Spiral I'll admit I have never tried, but It is difficult to get to 6 mana sometimes in matches you want to cast your timetwister because you are trying to restock your hand...

[jandax]

When I had the mana, I usually liked Reforge a bit more, but Returns is cheaper and there was a lot of times that I could only make 4 mana after a wish. Time Spiral I'll admit I have never tried, but It is difficult to get to 6 mana sometimes in matches you want to cast your timetwister because you are trying to restock your hand...

In my experience, when you got to the mana and wound up choosing Reforge, Reforge was more than often the engine that won you the game. Again, when I actually cast the card it won more than Diminishing Returns. I still play DR because it cost less mana.

[Megadeus]

The OP with the SB plan is before we put Xantid Swarm in... What do you guys usually do vs Tempo decks with Swarm? Ive been bringing out an infernal (it helped on wednesday when a RUG delver player surgicaled my Infernal tutor only for me to wish for it), and a ponder for the 2 Xantid Swarms.

[Lemnear]

The OP with the SB plan is before we put Xantid Swarm in... What do you guys usually do vs Tempo decks with Swarm? Ive been bringing out an infernal (it helped on wednesday when a RUG delver player surgicaled my Infernal tutor only for me to wish for it), and a ponder for the 2 Xantid Swarms.

TBH i'm Not the biggest fan of xantids vs RUG. Maybe just bad experience but always I play a swarm it eats removalt. Last time i have boarded -1 Infernal +1 Therapy. Doesn't mean much because my RUG opponents keeps were crap imo. In your case i'd Board out a mox over the Ponder because those Games against RUG always drag themselves to turn 4+.

[thefringthing]

I would not consider playing Xantid Swarm against a Lightning Bolt deck.

[Megadeus]

Went three and three today like a boss at SCG ATL. Played against Jund 3 times, Reanimator, MUD, and Enchantress... It was interesting and frustrating at the same time. Got to watch Phazonmutant rape people (he is still going). Met Bryant. Cool guy! Maybe next time. May write up a short and sweet thing later when I dont feel so defeated lol

[Megadeus]

PhazonMutant (Greg Mitchell) Top 8!

[joemauer]

PhazonMutant (Greg Mitchell) Top 8!

Does this mean TES is a DTB now?

[Koby]

I would not consider playing Xantid Swarm against a Lightning Bolt deck.

I would against RUG, if they still keep in Bolts, then they have many more dead draws.

[Lemnear]

Does this mean TES is a DTB now?

Doubt it. You have to pick a DtB up without experience or playtesting and perform well for a it to end up in that category (as far as TheSource goes).

Recently a lot of people seemed to pick up ANT/TES and fail miserably (obviously) and keep on blaming the deck in forums for what I saw, because not every starting grip is LED + IT among 7 mana total lol

[ThomasDowd]

I would against RUG, if they still keep in Bolts, then they have many more dead draws.


Also makes your AN better since it is 3 less damage to your dome.

also they need to have the bolt, so that you don't blank their snare, pierce, force, blue card hand.

this is in a weird meta meta sense.
like the "I know, you know, I know"


i feel it does enough work to board in if you have cards you want to cut.

[heathen]

I have a mulligan situation I'd like some input on. It's game two versus a Nic Fit type of deck. I lost game one so I'm on the play. Here's my opening seven:

Rite of Flame
Brainstorm
Brainstorm
Chrome Mox
Infernal Tutor
Ad Nauseam
Scalding Tarn

I mulliganed this hand, but second-guessed myself afterward. I wonder what you guys think of this.

[Lemnear]

I have a mulligan situation I'd like some input on. It's game two versus a Nic Fit type of deck. I lost game one so I'm on the play. Here's my opening seven:

Rite of Flame
Brainstorm
Brainstorm
Chrome Mox
Infernal Tutor
Ad Nauseam
Scalding Tarn

I mulliganed this hand, but second-guessed myself afterward. I wonder what you guys think of this.

Mox (imprint BS), Brainstorm AN + infernal on top depending on your drawn acceleration, Play fetch, Pass turn and win the next One if you found a Ritual or an LED + x with the Brainstorm. Actual playouts depends on the 3 cards off Brainstorm but the Hand is capable to win Turn two unmolested from countermagic. Natural ad nauseam is very likely here.

Shipping this Hand vs NicFit is a mistake

[jandax]

Do you mean to imprint the Mox, play the Tarn and just pass? You know they're going to lead off with a discard spell, so wouldn't that Brainstorm be better protecting your hand than sculpting it? Also, we had this type of sample hand last from Bryant. The all-in-on-one-cantrip hand no one seemed to like. I think if I were to keep this I might consider just playing the Tarn and pass.

[Lemnear]

Do you mean to imprint the Mox, play the Tarn and just pass? You know they're going to lead off with a discard spell, so wouldn't that Brainstorm be better protecting your hand than sculpting it? Also, we had this type of sample hand last from Bryant. The all-in-on-one-cantrip hand no one seemed to like. I think if I were to keep this I might consider just playing the Tarn and pass.

This is not a One-Cantrip-Hand. You have Infernal and Ad Nauseam itself in addition. Using one BS for the Mox and the other to set up your turn 2 kill while hiding Infernal + AN as pure buisness on top of your Library. It's pretty wayne if you BS in response of a discard spell or do it immediately and may kill Turn 1. They don't play Wasteland so you can safe Play the fetchland. You can even trick them by leaving IT in your Hand as #1 discard target while floating AN on Top and make them pick the tutor over the mana

Hard to discuss without Sample Brainstorms here.

Slow Roll with "fetchland, go" isn't promising because you a) waste a shuffle effect b) waste a turn to setup your kill in the Face of Liliana of the Veil and hymn

All you Need is to find +2 mana in your Brainstorm for a Turn 2 kill. Doubt a mulligan can offer better odds

[jandax]

This is not a One-Cantrip-Hand. You have Infernal and Ad Nauseam itself in addition. Using one BS for the Mox and the other to set up your turn 2 kill while hiding Infernal + AN as pure buisness on top of your Library. It's pretty wayne if you BS in response of a discard spell or do it immediately and may kill Turn 1. They don't play Wasteland so you can safe Play the fetchland. You can even trick them by leaving IT in your Hand as #1 discard target while floating AN on Top and make them pick the tutor over the mana

Hard to discuss without Sample Brainstorms here.

Slow Roll with "fetchland, go" isn't promising because you a) waste a shuffle effect b) waste a turn to setup your kill in the Face of Liliana of the Veil and hymn

All you Need is to find +2 mana in your Brainstorm for a Turn 2 kill. Doubt a mulligan can offer better odds

Fair enough. Maybe I just have this mental block about the odds of them having it or not, and too often err for caution. I mean, when it does come down to it, you have a very likely Turn Two. If they have it they have it.

[Megadeus]

Yeah in this deck, sometimes you just have to throw the hail mary and hope it gets there. Sometimes it doesnt get there. If you wanted more consistency you could try ANT, but you dont get the T1 kills that we get

[Lemnear]

Fair enough. Maybe I just have this mental block about the odds of them having it or not, and too often err for caution. I mean, when it does come down to it, you have a very likely Turn Two. If they have it they have it.

For many players opening with Chrome Mox feels like already loosing which isn't the case. In your example you know that you don't face countermagic and the fact that you don't have to infernal for AN which saves 2 mana. For this natural advantage the Investment of Mox (imprint BS) is worth it.

[Megadeus]

A brief tourney report of my 3-3 day full of frustration and fun!

Round 1: Jund
G1: I think I probed him and saw what he was on. He didnt have disruption so I passed. He played a DRS and then died after I untapped and played AN.
G2: He led off with TS. T2 he Hymn'd me I believe. I had a card in hand and a BWish and he Plays liliana. I Keep the wish and next turn wish for PiF. After some lucky LED's later I go for a PiF kill, but Im short one storm while he has me at 2 with a Bob, Liliana at 6, and a Goyf out. I can get him to one. So I go for a DReturns. It doesnt get there and I die. I realize after the round I could have just flashed back Silence to add to the storm, or just take him to one and hope he dies to Bob. *Punt*
G3: I lead off with a Probe. I see he doesnt have much to stop me. I could make 10 dudes and just hope, but instead I BS. It hits a couple of Rite of Flames and an LED. So I instead make 16 dudes and pass. Thats the game.

1-0

Round 2: Jund
G1: I see his hand of 2 Hymns, a DRS, a BBE, and lands. Ugh. So I hope to race and just make 8 dudes. He draws a bunch of removal and blockers :/ I die. My reasoning was that he could disrupt my hand and PiF was dead thanks to DRS.
G2: I kept a mull to 6 that was like 1 land, LED, 2x RoF, a petal and a Dark Ritual. Hope I get there! I didnt...

1-1

Round 3: Reanimator
G1: I keep an Ad Nauseam Hand with silence back up on T3. He goes T3 (he was on the play) Exhume Griselbrand.
My turn I know Im just dead because his discard was Iona and Jin Gitaxias so I just go for it. I silence, he forces. I play out Lotus petal and go RoF, Dark Ritual, AN with Lotus petal on board. He draws 7. Daze. I pay. He doesnt have the force. He dies.
G2: He mulls, I keep a 7 of 3x 5color lands, 2x Probe, Silence, Infernal Tutor. He eventually mulls all the way to 4. Luckily for me My probes draw 2 more lands! He rips like a champ and gets a T3 Jin Gitaxias and I die.
G3: I keep a good hand that can go off T1, but no protection, but I do have Probe. I probe and see: 3x Force of Will, Echoing Truth, Entomb, Griselbrand, Land. Yep. He Entombs Jin Gitaxias, I probe again and see he has nothing. I pray. He reanimates Jin Gitaxias. I die :/

1-2

Round 4: Jund
I was pretty frustrated at my match against reanimator and my phone was stolen in between rounds... I feel like a dick the way I acted towards my jund opponent this round.
G1: I probe, he sighs and says "Not this again". I see he is Jund. I make 12 dudes. On his T3 I silence him in fear of a Maelstrom Pulse, He sighs and says "That was a good silence".
G2: He has a bunch of Deathrites and beats me down with them, but not much disruption. He dies to tendrils.

2-2

Round 5: Enchantress
This guy may be a sourcer... I dont know, I just know he had Foreign Foil Enchantress with Shiny Angels. The deck was absolutely beautiful.
G1: I probe to see what he is on. T1 Ad Nauseam ftw.
G2: He Mulls to 5, but opens on Leyline and a land. My turn I go and make 16 goblins even though I was debating Burning Wishing for DReturns and hoping to draw a Chain of Vapor. He Plays Elephant Grass :/ Eventually he cant pay for it anymore but by that time he finds another one. I Infernal Tutor for a chain of Vapor and hit him to 3. But Sadly he plays a Stony Silence shutting down my chrome mox. So Late When I have a Rite of Flame and Infernal Tutor in hand I am one colored mana short of Finding the other chain of vapor to bounce the grass to kill him. Meanwhile he has about a thousand angels.
G3: He doesnt open on leyline! I Do see Elephant grass in hand though. I AN on turn 3 ftw. After the game he said his first draw was a leyline. Whew.

3-2

Round 6: MUD
This was against Ali Aintrazi. First time I have ever played someone I recognize from SCG coverage and stuff so it was kinda cool.
G1: He is on the play. My hand Can go nutters on T1, but he opens on a chalice for 1 :/ two drawsteps later he plays a Trinisphere and I scoop em up.
G2: I have a T2 hand. He has a T1 Chalice. I have an Abrupt Decay though. But I have to waste some of my gas on Chrome Moxen to cast it. He then draws 2 more chalices (which he puts to 1) a few drawsteps later. I have a bunch of chrome moxes out because I drew all three like a boss. I cast DReturns off of a BWish and it gets 2 Abrupt Decays, but restocks his hand with 2 metalWorkers on board. He makes 30 mana and dumps his hand including a trinisphere and a Blightsteel Collossus.

3-3

Overall the deck was fine. I definitely mis judged my hand vs Reanimator on his Mull to 4 but similarly my deck decided that This deck needs to draw 7 lands :/ The Jund Match I lost I think I may have mis played in settling for 8 goblins. I didnt show patience. MUD? I mean What do You do vs Chalice for 1 on the play? Lol.

[phazonmutant]

A brief tourney report of my 3-3 day full of frustration and fun!
...
Round 5: Enchantress
This guy may be a sourcer... I dont know, I just know he had Foreign Foil Enchantress with Shiny Angels. The deck was absolutely beautiful.

Nice report! It sounds like you hit some tough matchups.
Does the deck you played against look a little like this? http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=700153

--

I Top 8'd with TES! This was my first Top8 in a big event. I'm pretty disappointed I didn't win the whole thing (or at least get to semis :cool:), but I did play my worst matchup in the top8. I feel like the deck is very capable of winning, I just need to tighten up. It's still absurdly overpowered despite my misplays.

Thanks for the advice and support throughout the event, Byrant! It was interesting discussing lines of play.

Report going up when I have time to write it (hopefully tonight or tomorrow).

[Megadeus]

I think that may have been him. He said he was a Judge, and he had the angels and most of that. A few different cards, but overall seems like the same dude. Nice guy definitely. You had to play Hoogland right?

[Bryant Cook]

Nice report! It sounds like you hit some tough matchups.
Does the deck you played against look a little like this? http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=700153

--

I Top 8'd with TES! This was my first Top8 in a big event. I'm pretty disappointed I didn't win the whole thing (or at least get to semis :cool:), but I did play my worst matchup in the top8. I feel like the deck is very capable of winning, I just need to tighten up. It's still absurdly overpowered despite my misplays.

Thanks for the advice and support throughout the event, Byrant! It was interesting discussing lines of play.

Report going up when I have time to write it (hopefully tonight or tomorrow).

Congrats on your finish. Just need to work on less play mistakes and considering different lines of play (The IGG line and Probe/Bstorm we talked about). Also, PLAY OUT YOUR FREAKING ARTIFACT MANA AGAINST DISCARD DECKS.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Bryant Cook, what was your Legacy record in Atlanta?

[jandax]

Also, PLAY OUT YOUR FREAKING ARTIFACT MANA AGAINST DISCARD DECKS.

Then they have Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse and Pernicious Deed and all the things? Their removal package is about the same size as the discard, maybe it's best if this isn't doctrine but just another line of play given more context.

[Lemnear]

Then they have Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse and Pernicious Deed and all the things? Their removal package is about the same size as the discard, maybe it's best if this isn't doctrine but just another line of play given more context.

It's still strictly preferable to make them invest 2 or 3 mana to get rid of that LED via Decay/Pulse/Deed than for a Single mana in the form of Thoughtseize or IoK. Exceptions still happen

[lordofthepit]

Congrats on your finish. Just need to work on less play mistakes and considering different lines of play (The IGG line and Probe/Bstorm we talked about). Also, PLAY OUT YOUR FREAKING ARTIFACT MANA AGAINST DISCARD DECKS.

I almost always play out my LED's if I suspect discard, although if I plan to Silence-walk, I may consider holding onto it for an extra turn (to get more storm or to grab a second copy with Infernal Tutor, for instance).

I don't always play out my Lotus Petals though (at least not all of them). I almost never play out my Chrome Moxes unless I actually need to use the mana, since the imprinting is a very real cost.

[Asthereal]

Played a tourney this sunday. I failed again, but this time I cannot blame myself for the bad score. This was all on the deck.
Report is up: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25839-Back-to-the-drawing-board&p=716321#post716321
Help with my tuning is very much appreciated, but perhaps we can for now keep the discussion in that thread instead of here.
This because the list I am looking at right now is fundamentally different from the TES discussed here (mana base especially).

[Lemnear]

Played a tourney this sunday. I failed again, but this time I cannot blame myself for the bad score. This was all on the deck.
Report is up: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25839-Back-to-the-drawing-board&p=716321#post716321
Help with my tuning is very much appreciated, but perhaps we can for now keep the discussion in that thread instead of here.
This because the list I am looking at right now is fundamentally different from the TES discussed here (mana base especially).

Hard to judge your mulligans from that report aside from being sure those were far too much. I'm especially interested in the game you mull to 4; why would you mull below 5 with that deck and throw away all chances to kill your opponent in time anyways? I rather add a turn of cantripping than mulling. If you can dig out notes for the mulled hands would be helpful.

Have you considered ANT if TES doesn't serve your purpose?

[Bryant Cook]

Bryant Cook, what was your Legacy record in Atlanta?

I didn't play in the Legacy open. Flight left in the middle of the event. Actually, I was home to watch most of the top 8.


Then they have Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse and Pernicious Deed and all the things? Their removal package is about the same size as the discard, maybe it's best if this isn't doctrine but just another line of play given more context.

You just assume he was playing against Jund? He wasn't. Even so, it's more likely that they're discarded than destroyed.

[jin]

I don't always play out my Lotus Petals though (at least not all of them). I almost never play out my Chrome Moxes unless I actually need to use the mana, since the imprinting is a very real cost.

That's interesting. I actually find the initial mana source of the Lotus Petal equally important. I don't think I'd play out all of my LED's as to avoid getting them pulsed, but Lotus Petals don't usually get Pulsed...

[Asthereal]

Hard to judge your mulligans from that report aside from being sure those were far too much. I'm especially interested in the game you mull to 4; why would you mull below 5 with that deck and throw away all chances to kill your opponent in time anyways? I rather add a turn of cantripping than mulling. If you can dig out notes for the mulled hands would be helpful.

Have you considered ANT if TES doesn't serve your purpose?
If I'd play ANT I would like to play the Grim Tutor list. That seems the strongest. But I don't own those.

I am usually quite mulligan shy. I rather keep a scetchy hand than mulligan aggressively. About the mulligan to four: I believe my five was: Ponder, Burning Wish, Ad Nauseam, Thoughtseize, Duress. Something like that. No mana, two business spells, two irrelevant cards and a Ponder. Would you keep that? My six was sort of the same +1 Chrome Mox I believe. My four were two lands, Brainstorm and a Duress. Not that bad, but it doesn't win against three hate bears.

I still believe TES is the best deck out there, but I am often so unlucky that it frustrates the hell out of me. There is just so little you can do if you draw the wrong stuff. Maybe I should switch to Tempo Thresh instead. That deck at least is always able to do something, whether it is disruption, or beating with some guys, or burning Deathrites, at least you don't just sit there and lose. But combo is just very strong, so I feel I shouldn't discard it after one bad day. So if you have advice on the new list I posted, I'd be very happy to read it! :)

[Lemnear]

You ran Thoughtseize? :/

Still hard to imagine that both the grip of 6 and 7 were that bad too. Blue Source + Ponder is a keeper After a mull to 6

[lochlan]

That's interesting. I actually find the initial mana source of the Lotus Petal equally important. I don't think I'd play out all of my LED's as to avoid getting them pulsed, but Lotus Petals don't usually get Pulsed...

I also find that it's usually correct to hold Petals, although obviously it depends on your hand and the game state. My opponents (both paper and MODO) almost never take the Petal with discard, they tend to take other acceleration, tutors, and cantrips first--and I don't blame them, there's usually little reason to worry about a Lotus Petal. Pretty much the only time they'll take Petal is when it's really obvious that I need it to color fix, like if I have an Underground Sea a Petal and some Rites of Flame.

[Asthereal]

Yes I run thoughtseize in the board because I prefer them over Cabal Therapy. It's an old habit from Mystical ANT, when I would side -4 Chant, -4 Duress, +4 Thoughtseize, +4 Bounce against unknown hate from non-blue decks. I've explained this pages back. Therapy needs either brillinat poker skills (which I don't have) or a Probe/Duress to work well. If you don't have those, the Therapy just fails most of the time. Thoughtseize always hits. And I never died because of its additional life loss, not even since I run it next to Probe. (One can always hardcast Probe.)

My initial hands all had no lands at all in that game. I believe my seven were: 2x Wish, 2x Ponder, 2x Brainstorm, LED or something. In any case really awkward. As I said, I don't like to mulligan much. If I have land + cantrip I usually keep. Only if the rest really sucks I will ship such a hand.

[Jay_Gatz]

Therapy doesn't really require poker skills, most of the time if you don't have information then you name what you're afraid of or what beats you. Missing isn't the end of the world.

[Lemnear]

Lands aren't required. Initial manasources are. But I completely agree that those hands are unkeepable.

[Asthereal]

Therapy doesn't really require poker skills, most of the time if you don't have information then you name what you're afraid of or what beats you. Missing isn't the end of the world.
You are afraid of Thalia and Teeg. You name Thalia, he has Teeg and a Mindbreak Trap.
In that case I would like to have named Mindbreak Trap, and cantripped into Chain of Vapor.
But I didn't, because I reconed Thalia would mess it up most, and I didn't expect the Trap.
This is just one of the occasions I encountered in testing when I hated Therapy and wanted Seize.
Most play the Therapies, so I'm sure they are good too, but I just prefer Seize.

But good news for all Therapy lovers trying to persuade me to play them: I'm switching lists!
Silence goes, and Therapy comes in. And the mana base becomes fetch heavy, to improve cantrips.

[phazonmutant]

Report up! http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25845-Happy-Birthday-to-Myself-SCG-ATL-Top8-with-TES
The situation Bryant was talking about with artifact mana was round 6 against Dredge.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I didn't play in the Legacy open. Flight left in the middle of the event. Actually, I was home to watch most of the top 8.



You just assume he was playing against Jund? He wasn't. Even so, it's more likely that they're discarded than destroyed.

I meant the Invitational; you played in it, right?

[TheRedBaron]

Report up! http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25845-Happy-Birthday-to-Myself-SCG-ATL-Top8-with-TES
The situation Bryant was talking about with artifact mana was round 6 against Dredge.

Congrats!, I played at SCG ATL with TES as well... I went X-6 ;_; ... Every match went to game 3, just couldn't overcome some diversity.. Except vs. Jund. Jund had the dreaded: T1: Thoughtseize, T2: Duress, T3 Lili, T4 BBE cascade into Hymn, game 2 :(

[Megadeus]

I had a couple of times Sunday that I wish I were playing a way to remove artifacts and enchantments as a wish target and I think I may go back to it on a local level due to a high amount of Chalice of the Voids... I mean to be fair, I did play Enchantress and MUD in successive rounds, I just would like to know that I have that safety net just incase the shit hits the fan...

[joemauer]

I had a couple of times Sunday that I wish I were playing a way to remove artifacts and enchantments as a wish target and I think I may go back to it on a local level due to a high amount of Chalice of the Voids... I mean to be fair, I did play Enchantress and MUD in successive rounds, I just would like to know that I have that safety net just incase the shit hits the fan...

Do you feel like having Hull Breach or whatever in your sideboard would have made a difference in either of those matches?

I don't like having artifact hate in the SB against MUD because I can rarely wish and use said card. Between wasteland, Golem, Chalice, and/or Trinisphere it is tough to Wish and use a card from your SB. Or you use all your resources grabbing a Spree or Hull Breach to kill 1-3 artifacts, but to only have the MUD player rebuild his board before we can storm out.

Enchantress is the opposite problem. This is a fairly straightforward and easy matchup which doesn't feel like we need help outside of a couple CoVs. Also, Iggy and PiF are both awesome in this matchup.

[fogxanic]

I have MUD and TES both. So when playing tes you should do storm on t1 or 2 after that its usually too late. Weakness of mud is mulligan if I have any decent hand lets say t2 metalworker with lodestone i keep against tes. Because mulligan can give like 1 land and 5 five or six costers. Of course once I had nuts start like t1 chalice @0 and 1. T2 and 3 golems and game was over.

[Pelikanudo]

Hi all,

I've been testing the Cabal Therapys in other builds and I think they re really strong, I'm planning to change the Side as follows:
From:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns


To:
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns

I'd like to know if somebody else is testing C.Therapys in main. Or any other is fallen in love with Therapy.
The changes to the side are logic: Simply take out 2 Xantid and 1 A.Decay in the form of more disruption.
Also Therapy is great in conjuntion with CoV.

I noticed that vs S&T the Full Disruption package is great as well as vs Discard Decks like Jund or Team America variants.
I know Xantid is great vs S&T and Reanimator, 2 of the match ups I find more in my meta, this is the only reason to play Xantid instead Therapy.
I'm not sure if this will make sense.

Also, The Silence vs Therapy in main, I understand has been tested, but, again, I'd like to know thoutghs if any has been trying to develop or test something like this.
The fact is that the most I play Therapy The most I Like it.

[Lemnear]

Have you really a plan for boarding in all those Therapies? Which matchups which can't be handled via eot Chain/Decay, untap, win or by maxing silence effects with swarms, would you like a adress with Therapies?

[jandax]

I think he just really likes it, but let him test it and he'll come back around to the OP list.

[Lemnear]

Mentally preparing for another tournament tonight with Bribery in side (chop Decays Down to 2). Have to take the train and borrow cards again though :/

Hope I can take notes again in stenography to produce another detailed report :)

[plimplam]

Hi everyone !
I've been trying Time Spiral over Diminishing returns for a long time and my testing is working pretty well. Has anyone tried it too ?
In my opinion the two more mana needed to cast it are a necessary bad, because when you untap your lands you are on a better position than if you have diminishing return'd. Almost always you'll have at least 2-3 lands for untaping, and in long games it's a better option than DR too.
Best regards.

[Lemnear]

Almost always you'll have at least 2-3 lands for untaping

You must play another deck than me ... seriously ...

[plimplam]

Maybe. I play Bryant 75 -1 Diminishing + 1 time spiral. Always that I use TS I have at least two lands, few times I have 3 lands, never four. That's why I said I always have 2-3 lands. So, better explained for you ? ^^

[Lemnear]

Maybe. I play Bryant 75 -1 Diminishing + 1 time spiral. Always that I use TS I have at least two lands, few times I have 3 lands, never four. That's why I said I always have 2-3 lands. So, better explained for you ? ^^

If you aim to play 5+ turns to have "at least 2-3 lands" in play and you go for TS and invest 8 mana doing so, I'm confident to say, you misplay the deck and/or have questionable decks/players you test against.

[plimplam]

Do you know what a burning wish target is ? Situational cards. There are matches and situations where the deck doesn't have to be to fast as it could be. In some matchups you can wait until turn 5+, if you are a robot piloting the deck and you say " I have to go for it turn 5- " you will loose ton of matches because of that. Sometimes there's no problem for keeping a slow hand. Even Bryant said that not far along. But maybe you don't read too much about the deck. You talk as I always go for it turn 5+, well, I do when I have to, sorry if this disturbs you.
An advice for you, try to be more flexible and maybe you can learn a bit more. :)

[Lemnear]

Do you know what a burning wish target is ? Situational cards. There are matches and situations where the deck doesn't have to be to fast as it could be. In some matchups you can wait until turn 5+, if you are a robot piloting the deck and you say " I have to go for it turn 5- " you will loose ton of matches because of that. Sometimes there's no problem for keeping a slow hand. Even Bryant said that not far along. But maybe you don't read too much about the deck. You talk as I always go for it turn 5+, well, I do when I have to, sorry if this disturbs you.
An advice for you, try to be more flexible and maybe you can learn a bit more. :)

Yeah, I sure have no clue: latest report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25781-Heart-of-the-Storm-1st-Gents-Club)

Wish targets aren't "situational"; PIF, IGG and DR are additional Storm engines. Read Bryants take on DR vs. TS if you try to use his quotes for justification

[Final Fortune]

Hi all,

I've been testing the Cabal Therapys in other builds and I think they re really strong, I'm planning to change the Side as follows:
From:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns


To:
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns

I'd like to know if somebody else is testing C.Therapys in main. Or any other is fallen in love with Therapy.
The changes to the side are logic: Simply take out 2 Xantid and 1 A.Decay in the form of more disruption.
Also Therapy is great in conjuntion with CoV.

I noticed that vs S&T the Full Disruption package is great as well as vs Discard Decks like Jund or Team America variants.
I know Xantid is great vs S&T and Reanimator, 2 of the match ups I find more in my meta, this is the only reason to play Xantid instead Therapy.
I'm not sure if this will make sense.

Also, The Silence vs Therapy in main, I understand has been tested, but, again, I'd like to know thoutghs if any has been trying to develop or test something like this.
The fact is that the most I play Therapy The most I Like it.

I've done the 4 Duress, 3 Cabal Therapy MD before, unless you're trying to play with more fetch lands and basic lands or you're trying to win faster by playing on color disruption in order to avoid the first or second land drop problem that Silence has for white mana then there isn't a reason to play all discard compared to Silence, discard and Xantid Swarm because it gives Leyline of Sanctity and Sensei's Divining Top additional EV.

It's viable, it's just not necessarily best.

[plimplam]

Yeah, I sure have no clue: latest report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25781-Heart-of-the-Storm-1st-Gents-Club)

Wish targets aren't "situational"; PIF, IGG and DR are additional Storm engines. Read Bryants take on DR vs. TS if you try to use his quotes for justification

I' m tired of loosing my time with you. You have the absloute truth abput everything.

[Pelikanudo]

Have you really a plan for boarding in all those Therapies? Which matchups which can't be handled via eot Chain/Decay, untap, win or by maxing silence effects with swarms, would you like a adress with Therapies?

@Final Fortune Also:

This is the main goal.

I tryed only once the Timo Build and felt how good therapys are, I'm not able to do not agree with him when he says 'Therapy is the way to go'.

The match ups I won (9-1 with Timo List) were mainly because of the absurd quantity of discard the deck packaged, so the strategy was simply: to discard the oponnent, draw Bomb and just win. I noticed then how easy the S&T Match up was with 10 Discard effects, a Match Up I fear with TES for second and 3rd games.

Also in my meta the BUG variants with Hymn, T.Seize, and discard are a lot, and the best way to fight this is 'Figth Fire with Fire' as Metallica Song says. Silence is good but not vs Discard decks.

I recognize that the Reanimator match up goes worse because of not having Xantid, but we again are using 8 Discard effects,

The fact that you can go with Empty in base and sacrifice a Goblin for flashback seems to me another thing to have in mind with 4 therapys. This can provoke to not to take out Empty for second or third games even if you suspect massive removal, as Therapoy will help us with this.

I'm not going to test the No Silence version yet, but If I would I will put 3 duress 4 Therapys and let 2 Inquisition + 1 Duress in Side. I would take out also the CityOfBrass for more fetches.

As said, I do not intend to touch the base but, the other day winning the Tournament making 9-1 with that Timo List openend my eyes to a new world in which Therapy is the king. I think Silence is good in the base because of its Inevitability and seems quicker (I say quicker because sometimes you need to wait with therapy to guess what the oponent can have in hand), so at the moment I'll put them in side. I think those slots are the correct ones.

[Lemnear]

My experience with BUG is complete different. Fighting discard with discard don't help because you can't Win on the back of a single topdecked creature. You'll need a flurry of spells. My last tournament match vs. BG NicFit was won due to luck after we riped our hands and upkeep-silence is golden vs. Decks with Hymn.

[thekmind]

Silence IS good versus discard decks since you can just silence-walk them instead of taking an IoK and then they topdeck that Thoughtseize.

[Megadeus]

Silence walking is good and all if you really just need to hit another land drop. I could see the appeal to having more discard, but Having silence vs the inevitable rise of Tempo will be key.

[Lemnear]

I' m tired of loosing my time with you. You have the absloute truth abput everything.

Sorry for being able to present results and experience to backup my claims in the face of discredit

[jandax]

You must play another deck than me ... seriously ...

This might raise a different kind of question; Does the luck of the draw affect our collective experience with card choices and the deck itself?

[Megadeus]

Played a local tourney tonight. Chopped top 4. Sweetness.

Round1: Jund
This guy just took 20th at the Open on Sunday
Game 1: Made a bunch of Goblins on T1 after he plays a DRS. Got there.
Game 2: I keep a slower hand He Hymns me, then plays a liliana and starts going to town with a Bob. I die to a large Goyf and Bob.
Game 3: My hand was SUPER Sketchy on a mull to 6. He kept his 7. My 6: 2x Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Gitaxian Probe. I probe him and see: 2x land, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Bob, Surgical Extraction, Liliana. I laugh a little bit and comment how I am just dead. I draw Abrupt Decay, play out my petals, play out chrome Mox Imprinting Decay. Pass. He thoughtseizes my Infernal Tutor and Surgicals it after drawstep (which was a land). I cast Burning Wish for PiF and hope to god I get there. He plays out Bob and Liliana and I draw: Land, Dark Ritual, LED. meanwhile he has put himself to 14. I rip for the turn Rite of flame. He has Liliana at 6, and Im at 12. All or fucking Nothing. Cast ROF, Crack LED to flashback PiF. Cast ROF, Darkritual. Im all or nothing on my Gitaxian Probe getting me my 3 outer of Burning wish. I get it. Tendrils for exactsies on mana and Storm count. I apologize.

1-0

Round 2: UW Delver (Same guy I lost to in top 8 last week)
Game 1 I probe and see, Spell pierce, 2x Stifle, Snapcaster, Daze, and a Jitte. I get beat down by snappy a bit while trying to form a defense. He draws Geist of Saint Traft and I die shortly after.
Game 2: I probe and see, 2x Land, 2x Spell Pierce, 1x Mindbreak trap, Brainstorm. I slowly run him out of counters But he got a geist of saint traft. My hand is Dark Ritual x2, Ad Nauseam, petal, and silence with a gemstone on board. He hits me to ten. I cast the petal, And Silence him. He has a MBT and Force in hand but decides to just let me go for it. I need this Ad Nauseam to be very good. It was pretty great.
Game 3: I keep an empty hand that needs one single initial mana source to go off for 14 goblins on T1. He says fuck it and keeps his six. I have double probe. I probe and see 5x Lands and a Force of Will. Dont get there. I probe, dont get there. Mean while while Im durdling for a single mana source he rips, Spell Pierce, Delver and Geist of saint traft. I never got there and I die. :((((((((((

1-1

Round 3: Mono Black Pox
Im on the draw
Game 1: He does land go. I have an insane T1 Adnauseam Hand and he dies.
Game 2: I have an Awesome Ad Nauseam Hand. he leads off with the Rack. I go off. My flop was pretty shitty. I end up fizzling and discard to 7 at 2 life hoping he doesnt play Bloodghast. He plays 2 Shrieking Affliction. I dump my hand but am 2 storm short (bad math) so I tendrils him for 16 to go to 18 to buy some time since I put him to 4 and I have a Burning Wish. A couple of turns later Grapeshot gets him for exactsies. this is why I love the grapeshot.

2-1

Round 4: Spanish Inquisition
Game 1: Im on the play! I set up a turn 2 kill. I dont get to see Turn 2 :( Damn unfair decks!
Game 2: he mulls down a bit, I have a Turn 2 Kill and it gets there.
Game 3: He Mulls to 6, and I have a somewhat clunky hand, but it does have potential plus a silence. He goes T1 Dryad Arbor pass! I play my 5 color land and just hold silence. He goes Exile Spirit guide, manamorphose, Sacrifice his dryad arbor to culling the weak. I silence in response. He slaps the table somewhat angrily but in a joking manner. I duress and just take his LED hoping that was the right call, meanwhile my brainstorm was absolute dog shit. After I draw 3 from Brainstorm I have 2 Infernal Tutors and 3 burning Wishes. Super duper yuck. He tries to go for it while Im tapped down though and casts double Summoners Pact to try to Cruel Bargain to get there. He is one mana short and scoops! Yay!

3-1

Top 8: GB Smallpox
Despite this being almost unlosable, its against my roommate. We split whatever winnings we will get but play it out for fun.
Game1: He is on the play because he is a higher seed. He doesnt disrupt me and I make 18 dudes. I win.
Game2: He casts cabal Therapy. My hand is like 2x LED, 2x ROF, Chrome Mox, Probe, Brainstorm and Silence? he names IT. Woo! I draw a gemstone and brainstorm and find a probe and a Burning Wish. I make 18 goblins and his top doesnt find him a pulse or deed.

4-1

Overall the deck was great as usual. That one game 3 against UW Delver was overall frustrating as shit to me because I should have won. I was playing to an 18 outer. It happens though. I wrote in my notes in the Jund Match in Round 1: "Probe got there!". Underlined a billion times. Sometimes this deck just makes me giddy. Past in Flames, now that I have learned how to use it went from being my least used card in the wish board, to the best (though Ill-Gotten Gains is still my favorite loop to cast).

Props:
-As always the top of my deck
-Gitaxian Probe for being fucking insane
-My Jund Opponent for being a good sport about my luck sack

Slops
-The top of my deck for not getting there against delver...
-my Opponents for playing discard > Force of Will
-Greg Mitchell for playing Value town and not something unfair. If you arent going to play your Korean Dark Rituals Ill trade for them ;)

[Lemnear]

This might raise a different kind of question; Does the luck of the draw affect our collective experience with card choices and the deck itself?

If you've played hundreds of games you should eliminate the luck-factor and get an idea about the average performance. Sometimes you draw the nuts, sometimes the deck screws you, but that was not my topic. It's calculating odds of these 2:

- How many turns does it take to have "at least 2-3 lands" in play in a deck with 12 lands in average if you main targets for Ponder, Brainstorm etc. are Tutors or mana boosts like LED and Dark Ritual?
- how likely is it that the 8-mana-play to wish for Spiral is successful after you gave your Control/tempo opponent (the only archtypes which you'll grant that many turns) 5+ turns to develop (Topic Wasteland, Daze, Counterspell, FoW, Spell Pierce, etc.)?

The conclusions he drew are so off from my experience that I questioned him about that, but I get the same response I get since months: justification via ominous playtesting, discredit and insults. *shrug*

Maybe I'm just being sick of so many new guys on TheSource which tell fairytales about "3 years playtesting" and come up with blue Control decks without Brainstorm and Fetchlands because "Ancestral Visions is superior" (MUC Thread), Eternal Dragon is UW's best killoption and Nevi Disk a solution for the meta (both Old School U/W Thread) or introduce BG(r) decks with a manabase which doesn't even produce red or black mana (Development Thread BG Nether Void/Planeswalker).

I guess I should just quit to try to help people... *sigh*

[Megadeus]

Eh if people say it works for them, Id say let it work for them. If people come to you for help and you tell them what is wrong and why it is wrong and they vehemently deny it, then let them lose their games and wonder why. I would like to play Time Spiral one week at the local for fun, but deep down I know its not as good.

[Lemnear]

Eh if people say it works for them, Id say let it work for them. If people come to you for help and you tell them what is wrong and why it is wrong and they vehemently deny it, then let them lose their games and wonder why. I would like to play Time Spiral one week at the local for fun, but deep down I know its not as good.

We know Bryants take on Spiral and I have tested it in 1 tournament soon after it got unbanned but was unable to generate 8 mana in both situations the card was a possible wish target during 5 or 6 rounds I played back then, aside from the case that Gemstone Mine can run out of counters over such a long Game and isn't available after Spiral

It's outright cocky imo, to take something that a single man said as a justification for Spiral even if that single mans take on Spiral is very clear.

[Pelikanudo]

My experience with BUG is complete different. Fighting discard with discard don't help because you can't Win on the back of a single topdecked creature. You'll need a flurry of spells. My last tournament match vs. BG NicFit was won due to luck after we riped our hands and upkeep-silence is golden vs. Decks with Hymn.

Ok, let's agree on this:

I'm not able to get a flurry of spells vs BUG variants, even in 2nd and 3rd games they will counter my gitaxian... as they re full of good cards/resources vs us . Hymn, Fluster, T.Seize apart of Pierce and FoW.

If you do know the oponnet has Hymn , you can Silence him, but only if he has Hymn, for this scenario if he has FoW and Hymn, Therapy is much better as you will name Hymn with Therapy, and Silence in this scenario will be bad.
If you are playing vs a Deck wich has both FoW and Hymn, Therapy is better as can target both of the cards. This is applicable to other scenarios: (Ex. The opponent has multiple discard effects and Decay and you have LED, you can name Decay, play LED and wait for bomb making the rest of discard from oponent irrelevant)

The match ups I've won vs BUG was because of Silence + Diminishing OR Empty Plan. (for 2nd and 3rd games the Go Off As Soon as You Can Plan is no longer valid.) I just would not like to win so much times with D.R. I don't think it is the proper plan.
As said, even Therapy is good in the Empty plan for 2nd and 3rd games.

So in conclusion Silence is good vs BUG if you do not expect variable hate (pro active and reactive) , Therapy is just more polivalent as can target a Dark confidant, Hymn, T.Seizes, etc. BUT Silence helps us to Get the D.R. Plan only safety.

[Lemnear]

Variable hate is hard to beat for Storm in any case. Versus Hymn a silence-walk can be enough to win off the additional draw, sometimes wishing for PIF and waiting for artifact mana and lands is the right strategy ... depends. I'm just curious how you plan to Board between the 4 therapy SB and 4 Silence, 3 Duress mainboard (or such) for value in certain matches because I feel it's very redundant at some point.

[Pelikanudo]

Variable hate is hard to beat for Storm in any case. Versus Hymn a silence-walk can be enough to win off the additional draw, sometimes wishing for PIF and waiting for artifact mana and lands is the right strategy ... depends. I'm just curious how you plan to Board between the 4 therapy SB and 4 Silence, 3 Duress mainboard (or such) for value in certain matches because I feel it's very redundant at some point.

Something like this:

-2 Silence
-1 C.Moxen
-1 I.Tutor

=

+4 Therapys

Leaving the 3 Duresses in main.
Leaving the EtW main even if I expect massive removal, I do not expect more than 3 copies of (Pernicius D. OR Golgari Charm OR E.E. OR Maelstrom Pulse)
I'm not sure about the C.Moxen, but when looking at the Timo Strategies He sided out 1 Moxen leaving 14 Mana Producers which is what we have have with this strategy,
I won't side out any Gitaxian and I would prefer Poder in Base rather than I.T. To smooth the deck.

Opinions?

[jandax]

Like what you said about playing hundreds of games and learning averages from the experience. In the end it's not objective, Legacy is a format for pet cards and decks. People's opinions run strong and personal.

Unless Dragon's Maze prints anything for this deck, or something that makes other decks popular (however I don't think they'll print two Deathrite Shaman caliber cards in one set), there's really little innovation to take place in this thread. Just enthusiasts sharing results and hopefully helping others.

[CwaM]

Hi guys,

I've been playing some games with the deck but couldn't really playtest it intensively.
I read lots of posts/reports/topic about the deck but couldn't not find any sideboard plan vs some deck like Show and Tell, Reanimator, Shardless BUG (is that similar to BUG control?
As I plan playing the deck do the GP strasbourg this week end, could anyone give me some tips on those match up?

Thanks :)

[Final Fortune]

Ok, let's agree on this:

I'm not able to get a flurry of spells vs BUG variants, even in 2nd and 3rd games they will counter my gitaxian... as they re full of good cards/resources vs us . Hymn, Fluster, T.Seize apart of Pierce and FoW.

If you do know the oponnet has Hymn , you can Silence him, but only if he has Hymn, for this scenario if he has FoW and Hymn, Therapy is much better as you will name Hymn with Therapy, and Silence in this scenario will be bad.
If you are playing vs a Deck wich has both FoW and Hymn, Therapy is better as can target both of the cards. This is applicable to other scenarios: (Ex. The opponent has multiple discard effects and Decay and you have LED, you can name Decay, play LED and wait for bomb making the rest of discard from oponent irrelevant)

The match ups I've won vs BUG was because of Silence + Diminishing OR Empty Plan. (for 2nd and 3rd games the Go Off As Soon as You Can Plan is no longer valid.) I just would not like to win so much times with D.R. I don't think it is the proper plan.
As said, even Therapy is good in the Empty plan for 2nd and 3rd games.

So in conclusion Silence is good vs BUG if you do not expect variable hate (pro active and reactive) , Therapy is just more polivalent as can target a Dark confidant, Hymn, T.Seizes, etc. BUT Silence helps us to Get the D.R. Plan only safety.

I don't think MD Cabal Therapies and SB Xantid Swarms are mutually exclusive if you leave the mana base for 5 colors, but as far as Cabl Therapy vs Silence I think the issue is that a resolved Silence is much better than a resolved Cabal Therapy because your Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns plan will proceed uninterrupted by a new hand of potential counter magic where in the case of Cabal Therapy your Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns plan is more of a gamble so you end up leaning on Empty the Warrens and flashback Cabal Therapy which could be a liability.

Cabal Therapy is definitely better vs discard strategies tho', I think a lot of people are putting too much faith in being able to Chant walk and go off the next turn and it doesn't always work out that way unfortunately.

I don't think there's like "one and only" disruption configuration, I play 4 Duress and 3 Silence for instance because God hates me and I can't draw a gold land for shit even when I play 7 of them MD, and I don't think anyone can really say definitively that it's strictly worse than 4 Silence and 3 Duress vs a whole metagame because the extra discard spell is going to have pluses and minuses vs this and that.

[Pelikanudo]

I don't think MD Cabal Therapies and SB Xantid Swarms are mutually exclusive if you leave the mana base for 5 colors, but as far as Cabl Therapy vs Silence I think the issue is that a resolved Silence is much better than a resolved Cabal Therapy because your Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns plan will proceed uninterrupted by a new hand of potential counter magic where in the case of Cabal Therapy your Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns plan is more of a gamble so you end up leaning on Empty the Warrens and flashback Cabal Therapy which could be a liability.

Cabal Therapy is definitely better vs discard strategies tho', I think a lot of people are putting too much faith in being able to Chant walk and go off the next turn and it doesn't always work out that way unfortunately.

I don't think there's like "one and only" disruption configuration, I play 4 Duress and 3 Silence for instance because God hates me and I can't draw a gold land for shit even when I play 7 of them MD, and I don't think anyone can really say definitively that it's strictly worse than 4 Silence and 3 Duress vs a whole metagame because the extra discard spell is going to have pluses and minuses vs this and that.

I agree, the unique reason to play Silence vs Therapy is probably this: Makes D.R. stronger. At least in my meta Therapys have been strong vs sooo much discard and Blue.
By the moment I'l try the Therapys in Side, but full of them. As said I've fallen in love with Therapy...

Having in mind these things, maybe I post you privately to see options of a Black TES, as said, in my meta ChantingWalk the Oponent is an option, but remote, maybe as remote as Silence + D.R., and because of this I maybe prefer Full of discard package, and then Xantid can come in from Side as you say!. I'll send you my proposed list. This one for sure will have EtW main!

[phazonmutant]

Hi guys,

I've been playing some games with the deck but couldn't really playtest it intensively.
I read lots of posts/reports/topic about the deck but couldn't not find any sideboard plan vs some deck like Show and Tell, Reanimator, Shardless BUG (is that similar to BUG control?
As I plan playing the deck do the GP strasbourg this week end, could anyone give me some tips on those match up?

Thanks :)

Try reading the primer. For S&T and Reanimator, now that we're back on Xantid Swarm, you could potentially not bring in both Therapies, cut a Silence, or cut an Infernal Tutor to bring in both Swarms. You don't want to overboard protection though. Shardless BUG should be a joke. At most cut a Silence, Ponder, or Infernal Tutor for a Therapy and be sure to play around Engineered Plague if they know what they're doing. Otherwise, just be careful for Mindbreak Trap and roll them.

[CwaM]

My bad, it seems I just missed the show & tell part!
Thanks for the reminder :p
I see that you guys are often siding out a infernal tutor, what the reason of this?
Good job for the rest, primers and discussion are really deep :)

[lukatron2]

My bad, it seems I just missed the show & tell part!
Thanks for the reminder :p
I see that you guys are often siding out a infernal tutor, what the reason of this?
Good job for the rest, primers and discussion are really deep :)

Siding out Infernal Tutor gives you a lot of play options, while making room to side in hate/bounce.

Example play:

Play some spells
Drop 2 Lion's eye Diamond
Cast burning Wish, respond by cracking the two Diamonds for BBBBBB or BBBRRR
Wish for Infernal tutor, search for Tendrils of Agony or Empty the Warrens

[Lemnear]

New Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25855-Heart-of-the-Storm-2-Striking-twice)!! Check it out

[phazonmutant]

My bad, it seems I just missed the show & tell part!
Thanks for the reminder :p
I see that you guys are often siding out a infernal tutor, what the reason of this?
Good job for the rest, primers and discussion are really deep :)

Also on the primer is a discussion of the percentage differences for having 7 tutors vs. 8 to draw to. The difference is not especially relevant, it gives some room for board cards, and does open up some plays. It's maybe once every 10 or 20 games that being able to Wish for Tutor comes up for me, but it is a thing to watch out for.

[NQN]

Just got back from GP Straßbourg! I finished 6-3 after loosing the first two rounds. In round 9 I would have pretty much won the game at the third extra turn but then got a gameloss because of a brainfart, so no Day 2 for me... so close :cry: Turns out 10 hours of magic takes a toll on me afterall, not used to playing GPs without Byes anymore!

It was an awesome tournament overall with some very fun matches and interesting decisions. I will write a small report talking about some of my decisions I´m not sure about and some others I´m sure were wrong.

[akmalik]

In round 9 I would have pretty much won the game at the third extra turn but then got a gameloss because of a brainfart, so no Day 2 for me... so close :cry:

The whole match was very impressive. Stupid Ponder/Brainstorm ~.~


I played the first Trial on friday just for fun and somehow the weekend went better than expected with a lucky top64 finish:

Trial 1
R1 2-0 Goblins
R2 2-0 Grixis Control (top64)
R3 2-0 Merfolk
R4 2-1 Sneak Show
R5 2-0 UWR Aggrocontrol

GP day 1
R1, 2, 3 bye
R4 2-0 Esperblade
R5 0-2 Esperblade
R6 2-1 NicFit
R7 2-0 UW Blade
R8 2-0 Elfen
R9 0-2 Jund (top64)
GP day 2
R10 2-0 Canadian
R11 2-1 Painter mono r
R12 2-0 UB(rg) ANT (JamieW89)
R13 2-0 UB(rg) ANT
R14 0-2 GWr Maverick (Görzgen)
R15 0-2 UW Miracle (Levy)
R16 0-2 Canadian (Estratti)

As usual it was very funny to play TES. Maybe playing more Cabal Therapys next time.

[jandax]

Went X-X at the GP with TES, and my problem matchups this weekend were the UWx decks. Esper, Miracles, etc. It seemed that I just didn't have enough disruption to plow through and Storm to win. I did beat Esper once because I didn't make any mistakes, literally one of the few matches in the weekend that I couldn't recall any bad plays. Basically, Meddling Mage beat me down in all the control matches I lost. Day one there was lots of Jund and BUG/RUG, followed by UW control decks and tribal. Amongst them all were combo decks like Sneaky Show, Storm and Elves. Sort of a hostile environment for Storming it up.

[katakis]

Went 12-3-1 at GP Strasbourg. Being 10th in the last round ... but losing the the final round to Team America (the match was on the live stream), dropping to 21st place.

My matchups were the following:

Trial on friday:

Merfolk 2-0
Goblins 2-0
Canadian 2-0
Merfolk 0-2

Main event:

Tin Fins 2-0
Canadian 2-0
ANT 2-0
BUG Delver 2-1
Canadian 2-0
TES 1-1-1 (should have been 2-0 but I punted big time!)
Stax 0-2 (Thats what you get for dropping to the draw bracket :frown:)
Esperblade with CB 2-1
SneakShow 2-1
Junk 2-0
Shardless BUG 1-2
SneakShow 2-1
EsperBlade 2-0
Canadian 2-1
Shardless BUG 2-1
Team America 0-2

I played a homebrew list. I'm going to write a full report soon.

[Holly]

Hey,

I went to GP Strasbourg aswell and brought TES to it,
it was my first GP I played and the first tournament I played the deck in (out of 1 18-man tournament a few weeks ago) so I wasn't expecting too much.
Still I made a checklist of some goals:

[ ] Reach Day 2.
[ ] Get in coverage so my friends at home could cheer at me ;p.

I didn't made a whole lot of notes since that would've distracted me from actual playing but I'll try a short summary.

Starting with 2 trials on friday to get my last minutes byes.

Trial 1
M1 vs URw Tempo,
I kept a rather slow hand g1, make 14 goblins t3 which don't get there (he's on 1).
G2 I kill him with 12 goblins t1.
G3 he kept a hand of Daze, 2 FOW, 2 Waste, Spell Pierce, Island and draws a Delver before I could fight through all of this (needed to find a 3rd tutor/wish)
Great start.. but oh well..

Trial 2
M1 vs ANT
G1 He starts with discarding my Tutor and ruining my t1 kill. I play out my LED's (3), and try to cantrip into another tutor/wish but I fail to do so. Anyway he goes for Ill-Gotten-Gains, in response I crack 1 LED for white (I had a Silence in hand he knew about..), getting back Tutor, LED, Silence, cast silence and kill him on my turn.
G2 I make t1 12 Goblins (not the greates against combo, but I thought it may be enough), he wishes for Infect and kills all of them we play draw go for a while and he kills me.
G3 I think I had a t1 kill.

M2 vs Dredge by Saito, Tomoharu
G1 He put me on 11 with lethal next turn and after missing with a Therapy on Tutor (which I kept on top after a Ponder) I kill him on my turn.
G2 he get's me to 6 and I go for Diminishing Returns, drawing some mana and Ad Nauseam, go for it from 6, stop on 2 without tutor/wish, cast ponder, shuffle, draw Brainstorm, cast it and find the wish to kill him with Tendrils.

M3 vs UWr Miracles
G1 I can't fight through his counterspells and get beaten down by a Snapcaster while getting fatesealed.
G2 he lands T2 Counterbalance, I'll try to go for it but he reveals another Counterbalance on top of his library.
He plays it, I try again and a top is on top of it.. don't need to say that I lost this game aswell..

After blowing 30€ for trials I thought it's enough and went to have fun with some friends in Strasbourg, driving into some bar in which the waiters worn suspenders and were dancing on the tables..


Saturday:
After sleeping only a few hours I'm a little bit tired but the excitement overwhelms.
M1 Zoo (with 3 Thalia, 2 Teeg main)
G1 he plays's Critter go, I kill him. (Kept a hand which needed just another Mana for the kill, had no land and no cantrip but a probe, my out's were: Ritual, Rite, Land, Mox, Petal) drew another LED and probed into a ponder which got me another ritual).
G2 he starts with an ape, I therapy for Gaddock Teeg hitting 1 and seeing a Mind Break Trap. He draws and plays Teeg, next turn Thalia and I get beaten down.
G3 I start with probe, therapy and getting 2 Teeg's. Making 12 or 14 Goblins t2/3 while he plays some critters, he plays a Thalia later on while my board is some Goblins, 2 Lands and a Chrome Mox, I whish for Grapeshot. I attack him to 1 and lose all my goblins, I'm dead if he draws a fireblast.. he draws bolt, gets me to 1 aswell and I kill him on my turn with Grapeshot for 1 ! (Some seconds later I realised he could've killed me if he chosed to block 1 Goblin with his Lavamancer and shooting me instead of not blocking and shooting a Goblin).
1-0 (2-1)
Nearly lost in the first round against a rather good matchup.. oh crap!

M2 Burn
G1 He get's me to 12, I go for Iggy, miscount, cast Ad Nauseam and kill him.
G2 I have a t2 hand, go for discard t1, see nothing. He topdecks Pirostastic Pillar and kills me.
G3 T2 Ad Nauseam kills him.
2-0 (4-2)

M3 Nic Fit
G1 I want to make some Goblins t1, but with my Probe I see Therapy, Pulse and irrelevant stuff. I draw well with probe and go for Ad Nauseam t1 from 17 and fizzle, but sculpt a hand which wins next turn.
G2 We both mull to 6, he starts with top, I probe him, his hand was Extirpate, Recuring Nightmare, Forest, Kitchen Finks. Again I go for Ad Nauseam t1 with 17 life, again I fizzle hand have to kill him 2 turns later with Past in Flames.
3-0
(6-2)

M4 vs Saito with Canadian
Written Coverage here:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpstr13/day1#5
[X] Get in coverage so my friends at home could cheer at me ;p. (Well not live but hey.. at least)
Haven't read the coverage yet but will after finishing this report.

Edit: Just readig the coverage..under picture of mine he said I didn't win against Saito on friday which is false, what a misscredit ! :P

G1 I mull to 5 and I'm totally psyched and forget to draw after my probe which sees he only had Waste, Pierce and Force to interact with me.. oh crap I'm a fool..
Anyway somewhere in the game I make a mistake (can't remember what it was).. I think some Ponder decision.. anyway I die.
G2 I keep a rather slow hand with 4 Lands so he coulnd't screw me (to keep was a mistake I think) still I get him with a bunch of Goblins since he didn't boarded in his Rough/Tumble.
G3 I'm stuck on a Chrome Mox on blue after he blowed up my only land, all I need is to find another land so I could fight through his double Force, Tumble hand.. I don't.
3-1 (7-4)

M5 BUG-Agent
G1 I make 12 Goblins on t2, getting there.
G2 t1 Discard, t2 Goyf, t3 Clique get him there (I must have kept a rather poor hand for that to happen).
G3 I kill him t1.
4-1 (9-5)

M6 Esperblade
G1 I start with Duress discarding a Spell Pierce and go for it t2, his Brainstorm finds the Force and I die soon to a Batterskull.
G2 We both mull to oblivion, he has something like 3 Lands, Brainstorm. I still fail to win this game, can't remember why but getting beaten down by a Clique.
4-2 (9-7)

At that point I had to win everything..would be pretty hard and didn't even had play against my worst Matchups..urghs.

M7 vs Sneak Show
G1 I sculpt a pretty good hand which could cast Diminishing Returns (while whishing for it he was like.. a 4 mana sorcery which nets me 7 new cards? Sweet for me but what does it do for you?!) with 3 floating next turn, so I silence walk him since he could've played and activated Sneak Attack in his turn.
My turn: Cast Returns, crack LED, get a hand with mana, wish and Ad Nauseam. I want to have a little bit of fun with him so I cast the wish, he responses with Brainstorm, Intuition for Force of Will to counter it, I cast Ad Nauseam and kill him.
G2 I make 18 Goblins on t1 and kill him.
5-2 (11-7)

M8 vs Dredge
G1 T2 Ad Nauseam -> fizzle, t3 kill with Past in Flames.
G2 T1 Ad Nauseam -> fizzle (go to 2 life), I silence walk him, he goes all in on t3 but dredges poorly, just 1 Therapy, 1 Narcamoeba, no Bridges and some Ichorids. T3 I go for Diminishing Returns, fizzle, silence walk him and kill him next turn.
6-2 (13-7)

Wel.. 1 round left.. go to day 2 or punt again and lose?

M9 vs 12-Post
G1 I win the die roll, make 10 Goblins, he draws and scoops.
I sidebord nothing since I didn't see a single card of him.
G2 he starts with Leyline, I make 12 Goblins t2. He gets a Primeval Titan online which gets Glimmerposts to get him back to 19. I Attack again and go all in, cast Ill-Gotten Gains, cast Past in Flames and make another 34 Goblins. He has 1 draw left, he draws the Emrakul he could've hardcast, attacks with Titan to fetch Karakas and loop extra turns.. shit !
G3 I have the option to make 18 Goblins t2 or go t3 for Ad Nauseam.. I punt and did not think of Tabernacle and go for the goblins..
Thanksfully he didn't own a Tabernacle and my little green friends get me there.. (well if he would've played Tabernacle he'd fetched for it g2 so I guess I did not punt entirely).
7-2 (15-8)

[X] Reach Day 2 !
Yeah !
After a long day of Magic, we decided to don't stop there, buying a Display Innistrad and draft a round, I got a sweet Burning Vengeance deck (2 of them, 13 cards with flashback, 2 Unburial Rites and 1 Olivia) but lost 1 Match to GW-Aggro, still was a fun deck to play.
Going to sleep at 3am and stand up at 7 to play for the next day since hey..who needs sleep to play well with storm he?

M10 Elves
G1 He plays some elves, I kill him t2.
G2 I get a warning, since I cast a Chain of Vapor (brought in for Thorn of Amethyst) and noobish said Dryad Arbor instead of another elf which I actually wanted to bounce anyway.. However he kills me t3.
G3 I therapy for MBT t1 and manage to kill him still in this turn, Grapeshot.
8-2 (17-9)

M11 MUD
G1 He wins the die roll, t1 Chalice on 1. Go.
My hand was 2 lands, and 5 Spells with cc1.. t2 Port, Metalworker, t3 Wurmcoil, scoop by me.
G2 he mulls aggresiv to a 6 consisting off Gloem, Trinisphere, Chalice, Revoker, Metalworker, Buried Ruin. I Make 12 Goblins and kill him.
G3 I mull aggresiv trying to get fast hand or at least Abrupt Decay, so I go down to 5 off 2 Lands, 2 Rite of Flame, Chrome Mox.. I thought I'm dead.
He mulls even more aggresiv down to 3 (Monolith, Trinisphere, Chalice) and says go. I draw the Empty the Warrens, make 8 Goblins and ride the to victory !
9-2 (19-10)

M12 BUG-Control
G1 I see a hand of Decay, Jace, 2 Goyfs, Pulse, Usea and Force, bait him to use his Force on wish and kill him next turn with a safely Ad Nauseam from 12 (was aroung t4 I think)
G2 He has 2 Force, Spell Pierce, and I get beaten down by 2 Goyfs before I can fight through.
G3 I see his hand and he has nothing relevant. So I go for it t2, but he drew the force..
9-3 (20-12)

M13 Canadian
G1 I therapy away his Spell Pierce, go for it and get beaten by Brainstorm which finds the Force.
G2 I Therapy away a force and a stifle, make some Goblins and get beaten by Brainstorm which finds the Pyroclasm 1 turn before he dies.
9-4 (20-14)

I have to win everything to get some money.. can I do it?

M14 BUG-Control.
To give it away, I made some huge mistakes.. really..
G1 I have the choice of cast Diminishing Returns t2 with 2 floating or go for 12 Goblins.. I'm afraid of Deed/Pulse cast the DR and fizzle because I'm 1 mana short (I removed all my Useas and the 2 lands I did draw with DR were fetchlands) to cast Ad Nauseam and die.
G2 I make 10 goblins t1 and discard his pulse t2.
G3 He starts with double Wasteland, double Hymn.
I still manage to wish for Past in Flames in case I draw some rituals, which gets discarded by the second Hymn, I wish for Diminishing Returns and sculpt following board:
I have 3 lands and Chrome Mox in Play (2 lands tapped) and put the Returns on top of my library to protect it from discard. I have 1 card in hand, LED. His hand is Daze, Maelstrom Pulse and he has a Goyf in play which beats me.
I cast the LED to protect it from topdecked discard since I need it to play around the Daze.. yep.. I really was that stupid. He destroys it with Pulse (I thought he wouldn't do it since it was his only out against Goblins as he told me). So I was 1 mana short and on a 4 turn clock. My draws: Mox, Mox, Mox.. finally I drew in my very last round a Ritual..but he allready drew a Force.
Bam ! 1 Match, 2 punts so I couldn't place in money anymore..
9-5 (21-16)

M15 Shardless BUG
G1 I make t2 14 Goblins which get there.
G2 He discards my Tutor and extracted it, I pondered into a wish and kill him.
10-5 (23-16)

M16 vs RIP-Helm
G1 I wish for Diminishing Returns to cast it next turn. He has RIP in play. My turn, I silence him, cast DR with 0 floating but a Petal in Play. The first 7 cards are: Tutor, 3 LED, Mox, Petal, Land.. crap ! So I draw into something but am 1 mana to short.. while he drew the helm and kills me next turn.
G2 I kill him t1.
G3 I have a sweet hand without protection, went for 14 Goblins t1 but he has a Force for it, I still have 2 LED's in play which I didn't even had to crack.
Later I whished for Past in Flames but am 1 mana short to kill him on the spot so I do need to wait another turn. He casts Rest in Peace..
I didn't drew into another Wish/Tutor while he lands Clique & Jace. Oh well.
10-6 (24-18)

Which was enough for place 123.

I had some really good matchups day 1 and still didn't did as well as I should, but I'm still trying to learn this deck and think I some good amount of experience after these 2 days. I punted several times to often which sucks, since this way I can't blame bad luck on my loses (ok M13 vs Canadian I can). Still had a ton of fun playing these 2 days and reached both of my goals.. next time I aim for money :p

[Lemnear]

@ GP folks

16 rounds! For god's sake, I'm too ol' for that.

[Megadeus]

I could go 16 rounds. Being good enough to day 2 a GP is another issue for me though :/

[TraxDaMax]

Went 12-3-1 at GP Strasbourg. Being 10th in the last round ... but losing the the final round to Team America (the match was on the live stream), dropping to 21st place.

My matchups were the following:

Trial on friday:

Merfolk 2-0
Goblins 2-0
Canadian 2-0
Merfolk 0-2

Main event:

Tin Fins 2-0
Canadian 2-0
ANT 2-0
BUG Delver 2-1
Canadian 2-0
TES 1-1-1 (should have been 2-0 but I punted big time!)
Stax 0-2 (Thats what you get for dropping to the draw bracket :frown:)
Esperblade with CB 2-1
SneakShow 2-1
Junk 2-0
Shardless BUG 1-2
SneakShow 2-1
EsperBlade 2-0
Canadian 2-1
Shardless BUG 2-1
Team America 0-2

I played a homebrew list. I'm going to write a full report soon.


Think you might have been my first opponent. Well played, the set up in game 1 hid info and mislead me easily.

[phazonmutant]

It seems like there were a bunch of strange TES / ANT hybrids at Strasbourg. To the people that went - were the successful storm lists mostly ANT, mostly stock TES, or strange amalgamations?

On coverage, I saw Cifka playing a list with 6 discard spells, a bunch of fetches/duals, and Rite of Flame/Burning Wish. It looked awful. I saw a person playing Cabal Ritual, Chrome Mox, and Burning Wish, and that looked awful too.

[Megadeus]

Isnt the ANT version with BWish called TnT or something like that? Im not sure why or anything...

[Lemnear]

Isnt the ANT version with BWish called TnT or something like that? Im not sure why or anything...

This is correct. The Burning Wish ANT is sometimes called TNT. Most of the lists and reports I saw were either stock ANT's which fell under the pressure of Thoughtseize/Hymn or these undecided hybrids which use Wish as a toolbox or to fight surgical extraction. The possibility that the name-issue among storm-decks may is another point :/


Spoiler: My upcoming report will feature a match vs. 16-cantrip-ANT containing an incredible hulk-up after a game-shattering Wish for Therapy and being dismembered by discard from the start.

[Awaclus]

I saw a person playing Cabal Ritual, Chrome Mox, and Burning Wish, and that looked awful too.
Actually I think that's pretty good. I haven't been running Cabal Ritual and Chrome Mox at the same time, but I've tried them both and they both work incredibly well in TES and I could see a split between them in the Mox slot.

[Lemnear]

Actually I think that's pretty good. I haven't been running Cabal Ritual and Chrome Mox at the same time, but I've tried them both and they both work incredibly well in TES and I could see a split between them in the Mox slot.

TES isn't build to reach threshold in any of it's gameplans. We don't fetch excessive nor chain cantrips to fill the graveyard and Mox/Wish remove cards instead of dumping. In addition Cabal Ritual does more damage off Ad Nauseam, don't act as initial manasource unlike mox and doesn't give you the Double red mana for Wish -> EtW/Grapeshot/PIF.

Cabal Ritual is nothing you want in a deck that focuses on Ad Nauseam and Burning Wish

[katakis]

It seems like there were a bunch of strange TES / ANT hybrids at Strasbourg. To the people that went - were the successful storm lists mostly ANT, mostly stock TES, or strange amalgamations?

On coverage, I saw Cifka playing a list with 6 discard spells, a bunch of fetches/duals, and Rite of Flame/Burning Wish. It looked awful. I saw a person playing Cabal Ritual, Chrome Mox, and Burning Wish, and that looked awful too.

One of these hybrids was played by me.

I played this list:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Bayou

SB:

2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Grapeshot
1 Diminishing Returns
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Dread of Night
2 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor

However, if you ignore the dual/fetchland manabase this list is quite close to a typical TES build.
Two EtW main? Yes, they are just that good in the current meta with all those blue aggrocontroldecks. Paired with maindeck cabal therapy they are also very good versus most non-blue decks.
Why no Chant/Silence? I expected a lot of SneakShow decks... and in this matchup additional discard is just better then chants, which are mostly useless vs an opponent with 14+ cards.

[Kayradis]

Okay.

That's enough.

I'm putting that deck together. TES looks simply too fun not to play it.

[Lemnear]

That's why you can board out the 4 silences for 2 Xantid Swarms and 2 Therapies if you feel that way. Silence in response to Griselbrand (TinFins)/Enter the Infinite is still a thing

[Kayradis]

That's why you can board out the 4 silences for 2 Xantid Swarms and 2 Therapies if you feel that way. Silence in response to Griselbrand (TinFins)/Enter the Infinite is still a thing


I really like that line of play.

[jin]

How can having too many cards in hand be an argument against Chant effects? That's the first I've heard of that. Usually, we consider Chant effects a catch all to blank out more targetted countermagic like Spell Snare, Mindbreak Trap, and Envelop. Usually Discard is the problem because it only removes one counter spell.

Any how, I guess everyone has their playing style.

[Lemnear]

I think discussing any situation after your opponent draws 14+ cards is rather pointless anyway.

It's like discussing the strength of Stifle post-Ad Nauseam vs. Storm

[katakis]

Ok, I should've been more precise. Of course chant is better versus multiple counterspells. However, if the opponent draws 14 cards in response to your chant/silence you're usually just doomed because he has multiple pitch counterspells.
Chant-Effects are a good protection spell. But given the SneakShow matchup, what I do not like about Chant-effects is that can usually can only protect your own combo turn and rarely can be used as proactive disruption in the previous turns (I know, there are some situations... but I really do not want to write a book here).
What can Chant do? Either you open a god hand and are faster than them with chant protection (which is not an easy task) or you can try to Chant them in your turn when they already got Griselbrand in play.... which again does not seem very helpful either most of the times (they just draw 14 cards in response and force your chant and still have counter magic in hand).
With 7 discard effects you can slow the SneakShow player down (discarding their combo pieces and forces) and then just play around the soft counters in turn 3 or 4.

[Lemnear]

Ok, I should've been more precise. Of course chant is better versus multiple counterspells. However, if the opponent draws 14 cards in response to your chant/silence you're usually just doomed because he has multiple pitch counterspells.
Chant-Effects are a good protection spell. But given the SneakShow matchup, what I do not like about Chant-effects is that can usually can only protect your own combo turn and rarely can be used as proactive disruption in the previous turns (I know, there are some situations... but I really do not want to write a book here).
What can Chant do? Either you open a god hand and are faster than them with chant protection (which is not an easy task) or you can try to Chant them in your turn when they already got Griselbrand in play.... which again does not seem very helpful either most of the times (they just draw 14 cards in response and force your chant and still have counter magic in hand).
With 7 discard effects you can slow the SneakShow player down (discarding their combo pieces and forces) and then just play around the soft counters in turn 3 or 4.

Try to chant-walk so they can't drop Griselbrand via S&T/cast Enter the Infinite with Omniscience, before you kill them?

You can't fight an uphill battle against a resolved Griselbrand

[phazonmutant]

[snip]What can Chant do? Either you open a god hand and are faster than them with chant protection (which is not an easy task) or you can try to Chant them in your turn when they already got Griselbrand in play.... which again does not seem very helpful either most of the times (they just draw 14 cards in response and force your chant and still have counter magic in hand).
With 7 discard effects you can slow the SneakShow player down (discarding their combo pieces and forces) and then just play around the soft counters in turn 3 or 4.

My experience playing this matchup is the complete opposite. It's not that unrealistic to either open a hand that can go off t2 with protection or has some capacity to disrupt them before their turn 2. We are the faster combo deck. However, they almost always board in 4x Leyline of Sanctity, so disrupting them with discard is a crapshoot.
Meanwhile, they play Force and a bunch of taxing counters, something that Silence is absolutely golden against.

I typically board -1 Silence, -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 Empty the Warrens, -1 Gitaxian Probe for +2 Chain of Vapor, +2 Xantid Swarm. Not sure that the second Chain is necessary, but it can help with storm and occasionally you can bounce their Sneak Attack. My goal is to use Silence to make them Hymn themselves and have them play the control role until I can go off with protection. Every time I've played the control against S&S I've lost.

[Lemnear]

Every time I've played the control against S&S I've lost.

My last report strongly agrees in it's conclusion

[Megadeus]

Do you guys generally board out Empty vs every combo deck? I do like the list that had 2 empty the warrens. Not sure if I would be ballsy enough to play it, but Maybe I should be boarding in my SB empty vs tempo style decks?

[phazonmutant]

Do you guys generally board out Empty vs every combo deck? I do like the list that had 2 empty the warrens. Not sure if I would be ballsy enough to play it, but Maybe I should be boarding in my SB empty vs tempo style decks?

I wouldn't ever sideboard in the second Empty because I want Wish to be live (with only 6 mana), but I do often board out an Empty against decks where I feel like I'll often lose after dropping Empty. Decks I board it out - S&S yes (maybe?), Omnitell definitely, ANT yes, Dredge no (so many dead discard spells...), Elves maybe (can't decide), Aluren no, Reanimator yes (Elesh Norn norn norn), TinFins yes.
Again, not sure if this is optimal, but I board out Empty a lot. Makes Ad Nauseam sooooo nice.

[Megadeus]

What about against GB decks or other decks with sweepers? I sometimes board it out against like Nic Fit because it is only really good on T1 at that point thanks to pulse and deed.

Also what about for Jund? Usually against Jund I havent even been sideboarding. Should I be taking out silences? I usually just leave them in... I have been beating jund about 70% of the time, but Im not sure if I am boarding properly or not...

[Lemnear]

What about against GB decks or other decks with sweepers? I sometimes board it out against like Nic Fit because it is only really good on T1 at that point thanks to pulse and deed.

Also what about for Jund? Usually against Jund I havent even been sideboarding. Should I be taking out silences? I usually just leave them in... I have been beating jund about 70% of the time, but Im not sure if I am boarding properly or not...

I don't board much against Jund, if anything. They have nothing special that bothers me really. I keep the Silences in for chant-walking against discard, which saved my ass off Hymn 2 weeks ago.

It's justifyable to board out EtW for a Therapy against decks with Deed and Pulse.


I wouldn't ever sideboard in the second Empty because I want Wish to be live (with only 6 mana), but I do often board out an Empty against decks where I feel like I'll often lose after dropping Empty. Decks I board it out - S&S yes (maybe?), Omnitell definitely, ANT yes, Dredge no (so many dead discard spells...), Elves maybe (can't decide), Aluren no, Reanimator yes (Elesh Norn norn norn), TinFins yes.
Again, not sure if this is optimal, but I board out Empty a lot. Makes Ad Nauseam sooooo nice.

I can get behind this listing. I keep EtW in vs. Elves ... Duress against the Glimpse or a Chant is enough to make EtW lethal even against strong Elven-hands

[Asthereal]

I rarely side out Empty. Putting early pressure, combined with disruption, is usually pretty decent. Empty just sucks if your opponent has a spell that kills all your tokens at once. Against combo it's even better since you turn on the flashback from Therapy. That sometimes just wins on the spot. (I personally usually don't play Therapy, so in my case it wouldn't be a relevant argument, but most play Therapy, so it deserves a mention.)

Also I feel that Empty does not necessarily make your Ad Nauseam worse. If you draw a bunch of awkward cards from AdN which includes an Empty, you always have the option of just casting it and hope the tokens will get there. It won me several games which I would otherwise have lost because I couldn't get to Tendrils after AdN. (One of these was a rediculous misplay of mine, but I was saved by Empty.)

[TraxDaMax]

One of these hybrids was played by me.

I played this list:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Bayou

SB:

2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Grapeshot
1 Diminishing Returns
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Dread of Night
2 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor

However, if you ignore the dual/fetchland manabase this list is quite close to a typical TES build.
Two EtW main? Yes, they are just that good in the current meta with all those blue aggrocontroldecks. Paired with maindeck cabal therapy they are also very good versus most non-blue decks.
Why no Chant/Silence? I expected a lot of SneakShow decks... and in this matchup additional discard is just better then chants, which are mostly useless vs an opponent with 14+ cards.

Hmm, that's not my round one opponent then. My bad. Anyways, I like the double EtW. Why try hard when you can win easy right?

[Megadeus]

I don't board much against Jund, if anything. They have nothing special that bothers me really. I keep the Silences in for chant-walking against discard, which saved my ass off Hymn 2 weeks ago.

It's justifyable to board out EtW for a Therapy against decks with Deed and Pulse.



I can get behind this listing. I keep EtW in vs. Elves ... Duress against the Glimpse or a Chant is enough to make EtW lethal even against strong Elven-hands

I have never lost vs a large ETW on T1 against elves. They need the nutters to go off on T2 anyway. If you are on the play you basically just win with 12 goblins.

Also maybe not much of a discussion, but in a little sample hand last night I played it out and went for a Diminishing returns off of a burning wish... It exiled my 3 other burning wishes and my mainboard Empty the warrens.... Which makes my deck actually do nothing lol. I really hope that damn card doesnt do that to me in a tourney setting...

[phazonmutant]

I have never lost vs a large ETW on T1 against elves. They need the nutters to go off on T2 anyway. If you are on the play you basically just win with 12 goblins.

Also maybe not much of a discussion, but in a little sample hand last night I played it out and went for a Diminishing returns off of a burning wish... It exiled my 3 other burning wishes and my mainboard Empty the warrens.... Which makes my deck actually do nothing lol. I really hope that damn card doesnt do that to me in a tourney setting...

That's...pretty unlikely. I believe the math goes like this: (Assuming there's on average 55 cards in the 10 you're exiling - shouldn't make that much of a difference)
3 / 55 * 2 / 55 * 1 / 55 * 1 / 55 * P(10,4) = 6 * 5040 / 55^4 = 0.0033
or 0.3%.

That number makes intuitive sense, but I might have the math wrong.

[DarkJester]

I have never lost vs a large ETW on T1 against elves. They need the nutters to go off on T2 anyway. If you are on the play you basically just win with 12 goblins.

Also maybe not much of a discussion, but in a little sample hand last night I played it out and went for a Diminishing returns off of a burning wish... It exiled my 3 other burning wishes and my mainboard Empty the warrens.... Which makes my deck actually do nothing lol. I really hope that damn card doesnt do that to me in a tourney setting...

Kind of variance. That should not happen very often. It's more likely to kill ProsakANT with a turn one Extract on ToA. :tongue:

[Megadeus]

That's...pretty unlikely. I believe the math goes like this: (Assuming there's on average 55 cards in the 10 you're exiling - shouldn't make that much of a difference)
3 / 55 * 2 / 55 * 1 / 55 * 1 / 55 * P(10,4) = 6 * 5040 / 55^4 = 0.0033
or 0.3%.

That number makes intuitive sense, but I might have the math wrong.

Lol. It isnt like I am going to cut the DReturns because of this, I just looked at the 10 cards and thought, "Can I win?"

Just a little hilarious thing that happened to me yesterday... I usually do tenish sample hands before I play an event just to make sure that I can count mana and storm properly... Dont wanna get rusty!

[zefhek]

That's...pretty unlikely. I believe the math goes like this: (Assuming there's on average 55 cards in the 10 you're exiling - shouldn't make that much of a difference)
3 / 55 * 2 / 55 * 1 / 55 * 1 / 55 * P(10,4) = 6 * 5040 / 55^4 = 0.0033
or 0.3%.

That number makes intuitive sense, but I might have the math wrong.


using 58 cards left (-1 for the wish to fetch, -1 for something else, such as a mox) the mentioned scenario happens with a p ~ 0,0005. that is 1 in 2000 cases. look into hypergeometrical distribution for the calculation.

[monovfox]

I'm considering taking this a legacy tournament after seeing master cook win SCG DC. Would people mind giving me advice on playing the deck? I'm a little bit nervous playing anything that isn't DnT. Sideboarding would be very lovely, as well as suggestions on keepable hands

[jin]

4x Leyline of Sanctity, so ... I typically board -1 Silence, -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 Empty the Warrens, -1 Gitaxian Probe for +2 Chain of Vapor, +2 Xantid Swarm.

Are up sure this is correct? It seems like keeping in ETW vs Leyline of Sanctity is a good idea... It also means that you can go off vs them with one less card. If you drop the ETW early enough, you should be fine.


I'm considering taking this a legacy tournament after seeing master cook win SCG DC. Would people mind giving me advice on playing the deck? I'm a little bit nervous playing anything that isn't DnT. Sideboarding would be very lovely, as well as suggestions on keepable hands

The opening post is up to date. You can check it out for sample hands, lines of play. It pretty much tells you everything you asked about. All of it is useful..


I have never lost vs a large ETW on T1 against elves. They need the nutters to go off on T2 anyway. If you are on the play you basically just win with 12 goblins.

Also maybe not much of a discussion, but in a little sample hand last night I played it out and went for a Diminishing returns off of a burning wish... It exiled my 3 other burning wishes and my mainboard Empty the warrens.... Which makes my deck actually do nothing lol. I really hope that damn card doesnt do that to me in a tourney setting...

You win some, you lose some. I'd say Diminishing Returns has won me more than it has lost me, so I think it's worth it.

[Megadeus]

The opening post is up to date. You can check it out for sample hands, lines of play. It pretty much tells you everything you asked about. All of it is useful..



You win some, you lose some. I'd say Diminishing Returns has won me more than it has lost me, so I think it's worth it.

Its been about 50/50 for me :/

When it is good it is great, but when it is bad it serves me 3+ lands. This deck hates me.

Also I wouldnt just break this deck out for an SCG Open. Id get a lot of testing in if I were you.

Also went 1-2 tonight. I beat 4 color Planeswalkers (Yay!!). Lost in the mirror to phazonmutant (lame) and BUG Delver.

The mirror was rough losing the die roll, and he drew more silences than me :/ Pretty sure I punted game 2 of the mirror. As it turns out, if the game goes past turn 1 on both sides skill kicks in! And then Game 3 against BUG I kept the following opener:

2x Chrome Mox
1x Silence
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Burning Wish
2x Gitaxian Probe
1x Lotus Petal

My thoughts were that on the play all I need is for him to not have a force and one of my probes drawing a +1 or a land and I can empty for 12-16 dudes. I probe and see flusterstorm, daze, brainstorm and lands so I need to rip like a champ. I didnt :/

[Lemnear]

Are up sure this is correct? It seems like keeping in ETW vs Leyline of Sanctity is a good idea... It also means that you can go off vs them with one less card. If you drop the ETW early enough...

This depends a lot on their mindset to either mulligan into Leyline or Focus on gett'n a decent hand which can win during the first 3 turns. Most of the S&T players I played against do the later. Therefore I side out EtW against them because it happend to be too slow once before for me (was an EtW for 8 tbh).

Conclusion: If they mulligan into Leyline you can still wish for EtW, if they don't open/mull for Leyline you have one less card in your deck that is a brick.



I'm considering taking this a legacy tournament after seeing master cook win SCG DC. Would people mind giving me advice on playing the deck? I'm a little bit nervous playing anything that isn't DnT. Sideboarding would be very lovely, as well as suggestions on keepable hands

Read the OP carefully, make notes, (may take a look at my play-by-play reports in my signature) and playtest for AT LEAST 2 months before taking this to a big tournament or I guara-damn-tee, you'll fail so hard that you will never ever touch the deck again and call it crap.

This deck needs a lot of experience about then to calculate the odds and go all-in or slow-roling for turns while dropping lands. Switching from DnT to TES is like entering Vintage after you played Modern before

[Megadeus]

Looks barely playable. What was your second Probe draw and your draw for turn? This hand should still make it if you Slow-Roll after Probe, draw land, play land, go

Edit: Double Post ... sry

Well if I draw a land I can go land, chrome mox imprinting silence, petal LED burning wish Empty (Edit: Assuming I see that he doesnt have force). And if he had the force I could attempt to slow roll him and win. I drew a cabal therapy and a ponder i believe? Then I see a rite of flame, but at that point I had to burn the petal to cast ponder and at that point I couldnt fight through all of the counters he had.

Edit again. Oh shit I think I couldve wion that game. Goddamn Im an idiot. :mad:

[Lemnear]

Oh shit I think I couldve wion that game. Goddamn Im an idiot. :mad:

Probe to see his hand, Mox (Silence), Mox (Probe), Petal, LED, Wish, EtW from SB for 14 Goblins.

I missed the fact that you were on the play, duh. Being on the play makes this A BIT easier XD

[Megadeus]

Probe to see his hand, Mox (Silence), Mox (Probe), Petal, LED, Wish, EtW from SB for 14 Goblins.

I missed the fact that you were on the play, duh

Yeah. I derped real hard like a fucking champ. Welp. Now Ill probably think about this retarded punt for awhile. So basically my outs were, anything lol. GOD IM SO DUMB FFFFUUUUCCCCCKKKKK. This is why you dont simply pick this deck up and play it. Ive been doing this for almost three months now and I still suck. With the two probes it literally didnt matter what I drew... BRB killing myself

[Lemnear]

The only variable here was really to either imprint the second Probe or any of the drawn cards/play drawn lands and cast Mox as a blank. The marginal difference is 14 or 16 goblins.

We will both laugh about this in a week :)

[Megadeus]

Agh it is just so stressful to me to think about how bad i punted that game... I was over thinking my own outs. In my mind I was like "This second Chrome Mox is a blank". I think that I forgot that LED could make red mana as well, because I think I was concerned abotu not having any more red mana to be able to cast burning wish AND Empty. Well kids if you want to learn how NOT to play the deck, Ill film my matches next week (assuming I dont get to play Moat stompy next week)

[Kayradis]

I almost finished building the list yesterday. Im playing in a proxies-allowed Thursday night legacy tonight. Im not expecting to do well with the deck TBH, but like Lemnear said, the deck require LOTS of testing and has a really steep learning curve.

Any advices in regards to line of play?

Im really curious about strategies and I'd appreciate ideas!

[Megadeus]

I almost finished building the list yesterday. Im playing in a proxies-allowed Thursday night legacy tonight. Im not expecting to do well with the deck TBH, but like Lemnear said, the deck require LOTS of testing and has a really steep learning curve.

Any advices in regards to line of play?

Im really curious about strategies and I'd appreciate ideas!

One interaction that isnt an easily seen play is if you have Ad Nauseam or Empty the Warrens in hand, Plus LED and Brainstorm + Probe, you can brainstorm you Ad Nauseam or Empty to the top, cast Gitaxian Probe, and crack LED in response, Making it so you can use your LED towards a spell in hand essentially...

Also If you can just go off and make 14ish Goblins On T1 it is perfectly acceptable. Dont be afraid to just be like a belcher deck sometimes.

[Zombie]

^ this. Many Legacy decks just fold to quick Goblins, and even the ones who don't tend to play only a few answers.

Another thing that is ok is midgame Goblins. Like, against Esper, if you know the coast is reasonably clear (esp. after discarding Batterskull), just go for some Goblins. It's not foolproof, but surprisingly not-horrible. This is a gambler's deck. This is an aggressive deck. Always keep those things in mind.

[Lemnear]

I almost finished building the list yesterday. Im playing in a proxies-allowed Thursday night legacy tonight. Im not expecting to do well with the deck TBH, but like Lemnear said, the deck require LOTS of testing and has a really steep learning curve.

Any advices in regards to line of play?

Im really curious about strategies and I'd appreciate ideas!

1) stay relaxed. Most mistakes come from being nervous
2) have pen&paper at hand. Make notes about mana and stormcount EVERY turn it could matter.
3) seize your opponent before you shuffle and put him onto a certain strategy.
4) mull accordingly to your Knowledge about the opponent and his deck (you can read much about that in my reports)
5) don't feel pressured to go off asap if your opponent doesn't present a clock (you can dodge Daze or shit that Way)
6) evade mulligans to 5 or lower at any cost!
7) don't feel pressured to go off fast in face of high damage
8) don't go for Ad Nauseam below 13 Life unless there's no other Option
9) Past in Flames is an Auto-Pilot vs. Decks that rely on Thoughtseize, Hymn and Liliana to Control you
10) Never underestimate the kill via natural chains
11) remember you can chain infernal Tutors for Stormcount
12) diminishing returnes in NOT a panic-button.
13) Use DR if a) EtW is not an option (Deed, etc.), b) you have excessive mana float or c) storm count for EtW is too low
14) IGG is more often useful than you might imagine.
15) Never keep hands which rely on a single resolved Tutor/cantrip on the draw.
16) use Silence to prevent gamebreakers like Show&Tell or Hymn
17) never board out Probes ... not even 1
18) never try to be the Control deck vs other Combo decks
19) Free yourself from mentally focusing on Ad Nauseam for the kill. There a dozens of other ways which newer pilots tend to miss because of that
20) stop Ad Nauseam at 4 remaining life unless you REALLY have to continue to dodge the instant kill via revealing EtW or an opposing Lightning Bolt
21) Check if you played a Land in the turn you cast Ad Nauseam. I tend to forget that often and then have to set me ablaze and jump somersault outta a window in the 13th Floor just to get that +1 mana otherwise.
22) pray I can launch HotS-Vol.3 during the weekend ;)


just from the Top of my head

Edit for everyone who cares: going -1 EtW, -1 Infernal, +2 Xantid swarms is my current plan vs. Show&Tell decks feat. Leyline of Sanctity

[Zombie]

Against discard play artifacts, wish for PiF even if you can't go off.

[Lemnear]

Against discard play artifacts, wish for PiF even if you can't go off.

QFT.

Only exception for wishing for PIF is an active DRS

[Jay_Gatz]

You don't bring in any chains?

[Kayradis]

1) stay relaxed. Most mistakes come from being nervous
2) have pen&paper at hand. Make notes about mana and stormcount EVERY turn it could matter.
3) seize your opponent before you shuffle and put him onto a certain strategy.
4) mull accordingly to your Knowledge about the opponent and his deck (you can read much about that in my reports)
5) don't feel pressured to go off asap if your opponent doesn't present a clock (you can dodge Daze or shit that Way)
6) evade mulligans to 5 or lower at any cost!
7) don't feel pressured to go off fast in face of high damage
8) don't go for Ad Nauseam below 13 Life unless there's no other Option
9) Past in Flames is an Auto-Pilot vs. Decks that rely on Thoughtseize, Hymn and Liliana to Control you
10) Never underestimate the kill via natural chains
11) remember you can chain infernal Tutors for Stormcount
12) diminishing returnes in NOT a panic-button.
13) Use DR if a) EtW is not an option (Deed, etc.), b) you have excessive mana float or c) storm count for EtW is too low
14) IGG is more often useful than you might imagine.
15) Never keep hands which rely on a single resolved Tutor/cantrip on the draw.
16) use Silence to prevent gamebreakers like Show&Tell or Hymn
17) never board out Probes ... not even 1
18) never try to be the Control deck vs other Combo decks
19) Free yourself from mentally focusing on Ad Nauseam for the kill. There a dozens of other ways which newer pilots tend to miss because of that
20) stop Ad Nauseam at 4 remaining life unless you REALLY have to continue to dodge the instant kill via revealing EtW or an opposing Lightning Bolt
21) Check if you played a Land in the turn you cast Ad Nauseam. I tend to forget that often and then have to set me ablaze and jump somersault outta a window in the 13th Floor just to get that +1 mana otherwise.
22) pray I can launch HotS-Vol.3 during the weekend ;)


just from the Top of my head

Edit for everyone who cares: going -1 EtW, -1 Infernal, +2 Xantid swarms is my current plan vs. Show&Tell decks feat. Leyline of Sanctity


Thanks for the advices!

Unfortunately, I won't be able to play since something else just came up. Im still planning to gold fish the deck as much as I can and probably throw a couple games against opponents since there is two standard GPTs this weekend (Providence and Las Vegas). Im stuck at work at the moment and I just keep reviewing lines of play and HotS reports. Stick with me since it's all because of those reports that I'm now playing that deck and slowly leaving my long-loved Combo Elves!

[Lemnear]

You don't bring in any chains?

Really, depends on my opponents exact S&T plan aka UR Wish S&T, OmniTell, SneakShow, etc. Sometimes I board them in, sometimes not; chaining Sneak Attack (or hasted creatures) compared with bouncing Omniscience makes a hell of a difference. In corner cases against a resolved Leyline, i'm completely fine with casting Ad Nauseam into EtW with several Silences and White manasources available. I don't feel convinced to board in chains for the Leylines alone

The xantids are undisputed.

[phazonmutant]

Any advices in regards to line of play?

Im really curious about strategies and I'd appreciate ideas!

People posted some excellent advice above, so I guess I'll just reiterate some pieces of advice that took multiple losses to really understand despite "knowing" them to be true.
- Bryant's said this countless times - be aggressive! If you have a good shot at winning if you go for it and they're unlikely to have ripped the nuts / mulliganed into it / etc, just do it! Most matchups tend to get worse as the game goes on, especially once they get to play a land. That being said, there is a thing as being too all-in. Finding that line is hard.
- Determine when it's correct to play artifact mana against discard decks. There are times when I'd prefer to discard an LED in hand than my one-of tutor, so I don't play LED. But more often I've lost because I forget to play the LEDs (or less often, Petals) that I needed and they got stripped. Usually people won't strip Petals when you have almost anything else in hand, so it's less important to play them out. Obvious exceptions like that game at SCG Atlanta against dredge where I Tutored for a second Petal and he Therapied on the guaranteed 2-for-1.

--
I had a pretty interesting tournament last night. Top4-split, winning $35ish (lower turnout this week). Only 14 people, so unfortunately only 3 rounds.
Round 1 - haganbmj - Maverick
He's a good player and was pretty sure I was back on Storm, so I was feeling nervous about this matchup. I tend to not do as well against Thalia decks, so it's good that I got paired against him so I could practice against hatebears.
G1 - He mulled to 6 and kept a hand with some lands, Hierarch, Plow, and Knight. My hand was pretty mana-heavy without a tutor, so when my Ponder bricked I wasn't very confident. Fortunately he didn't draw a hatebear before I drew a Tutor and won off Ad Nauseam.
boarding: -4 Silence, -2 Duress, -1 Infernal Tutor, +2 Chain of Vapor, +3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Cabal Therapy, +1 Thoughtseize
G2 - I kept a really weird hand (on the draw) that I'd like to discuss with you guys:
2x Chrome Mox, Chain of Vapor, Ponder, Cabal Therapy, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor
So my thought process is if I draw a land, I'm very likely to win off of Ponder and also I have a Chain in hand if Ponder bricks. If I draw an LED I just win. There's also (seemingly) plenty of ways to win off of Ponder. If that all bricks, I can imprint Ritual and Therapy him (hopefully with some hand knowledge if I draw Probe) and play the long game. Looking back, my outs were really dependent on finding LED, so that hand may have been loose. What do you think?
In any case, I drew Wish for turn, imprinted Chain on Chrome Mox and Pondered, found LED, and Tutored for Empty for 14. He scooped.
1-0

R2 - Megadeus - TES
G1 - I win the die roll #winning. Probe him seeing no disruption but a guaranteed t2 kill. I Ponder. He Ponders. I kill him.
We laughed about how we talked about boarding in the mirror earlier that day. -1 Empty the Warrens, +1 Cabal Therapy
G2 - This game is very very grindy, but also pretty interesting to learn from. Megadeus made a couple of mistakes we talked about after the match, and I'm not presenting them here to embarrass him (he played well overall!), but rather to help teach other people in the thread what to watch out for.
He Brainstormed, then I Duressed and Therapied him off of Mine and a Petal, then played my second Petal to leave up Silence. I took Petal and Ponder leaving Rite of Flame, Brainstorm, Chrome Mox with the thought that he couldn't use Ponder to shuffle his Brainstorm lock. I think he Brainstormed again and failed to find a kill. I had Tutor, Rite of Flame, and drew Wish with Gemstone on 1, a Fetch, and a Petal, and thought hard about essentially double strip mining myself and burning a Rite to get a Thoughtseize, but decided if he had it, he had it. He imprinted RoF to Chrome Mox and Wished for a Therapy, taking my Tutor. I did nothing. He slammed the Ad Nauseam he hid with Brainstorm! He ended up going from 16 down to 4 (hadn't played a land) but stopped before he found another IMS to kill me. Here's what he revealed (not in order):
RoF, RoF, BW, Duress, Silence, Ponder, Probe, Probe, DR, IT, fetch, City of Brass
Since he had boarded out Empty, the correct play would be to continue to find another R/B source so he could Wish for Tendrils. Given that he didn't, I think the correct play was to play City and leave up Silence, then kill me with Wish for Past in Flames next turn. What he ended up doing is playing Probe (putting himself to 2), playing City, and Duressing my Wish.
I ripped Silence. My play goal for this year has been improving my bluffs and reading, so I tried carefully to make no reaction, and slump defeated in my chair (head resting on hand, shoulders forward, defeated tone of voice). Here was the second major mistake Megadeus made. He untapped at 1 (turning off both City of Brasses he had in play, leaving him a Mine and a Sea). He RoF, RoF, DR, DR (nice draw!), Wished for PiF, leaving 3 R and 3 B floating. Through all this, I'm double checking mana & storm, but careful to leave my hand on the table and act defeated - I was trying to get him to burn as many resources as possible before using Silence. The first thing he should have done is flashback Duress in case I drew Silence - that would leave him with PiF and Rituals in grave and Ponder and IT in hand - not bad! Instead he flashbacked all his rituals and Tutored and Wished, at which point I Silenced. A few turns later I drew Wish and enough mana to kill him. I did create some awkwardness by flopping my hand on the table and saying what I was going to do without actually tapping mana, which he interrupted by Silencing in response to Wish (one good rip deserves another!), but it didn't really matter.
2-0
Sorry that description is so long, but I think Storm mirrors are really interesting (as long as both players see their turn 2, as Megadeus noted!) Hopefully it's useful.

R3 - ID
Unfortunately small turnout. Nedleeds could be right that it's because of degenerate combo players like myself, but combo is not an easy thing to give up... I played 4c cascade last week and got lifetilted when I lost to UR Delver in the Quarters piloted by a bad player.
2-0-1

Quarters - haganbmj again
Fortunately I was higher seed, but I wasn't exactly thrilled to play this matchup again just in the interest of diversity.
G1 - I had a 1-lander that needed any mana source to Ad Nauseam (I had a Petal so colors not an issue). Probe saw a hand with Wasteland, Savannah, and a Thalia and I decided to not play a land. I don't think that's the correct play because he was joking that Wasteland would be good if he saw t3 (indicating he was focusing on playing Thalia) and I had 11 draws to get punished, but my thought was that there are 16 draws (RoF, DR, LP, and LED) that win and I probably lose if he Wastes me. Opinions? I ripped a City of Brass (justice), play it and Silence him on upkeep. He Wasted me, then I drew a ritual to win.
G2 - I kept hand that had a Volcanic, Chrome Mox, Ritual, Therapy, Ponder, Brainstorm, and I think a tutor. Ponder saw a kill next turn, so I decided against imprinting Ritual and blind Therapy. He played Sylvan Safekeeper and Thalia.
G3 - At this point I wanted to trying boarding out the Abrupt Decays for 3 Silence. I've been very unimpressed with Decay against Thalia.deck, and Bryant suggested that on the play I want to make my deck as streamlined as possible when I was playing against Elves at the Open. I opened on a t2 Ad Nauseam hand and won.

There were multiple interesting decision points and hands throughout this tournament, so I hope you guys can make it through the wall of text to let me know your thoughts!

[Lemnear]

G2 - I kept a really weird hand (on the draw) that I'd like to discuss with you guys:
2x Chrome Mox, Chain of Vapor, Ponder, Cabal Therapy, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor

-snip-

RoF, RoF, BW, Duress, Silence, Ponder, Probe, Probe, DR, IT, fetch, City of Brass
Since he had boarded out Empty, the correct play would be to continue to find another R/B source so he could Wish for Tendrils.

-snip-

Quarters

G1 - I had a 1-lander that needed any mana source to Ad Nauseam (I had a Petal so colors not an issue). Probe saw a hand with Wasteland, Savannah, and a Thalia and I decided to not play a land. I don't think that's the correct play because he was joking that Wasteland would be good if he saw t3 (indicating he was focusing on playing Thalia) and I had 11 draws to get punished, but my thought was that there are 16 draws (RoF, DR, LP, and LED) that win and I probably lose if he Wastes me. Opinions? I ripped a City of Brass (justice), play it and Silence him on upkeep. He Wasted me, then I drew a ritual to win.

Rd.1 - Ritual, Tutor + Access to T1 Ponder? A keeper

Rd.2 - to continue the flipping is the right choice here till you reach the bottom end of 2 life. With 2 Life I would Start counting the remaining Wishes/Tutors in the deck and calculate the odds.

Rd.3 - sandbaggin the lonely land in you first turn on the play is correct here. You can't afford to loose to Wasteland. The silence to prevent Thalia in T2 was smart. I usually promote to do this against threatening Show&Tell and Hymn too. You traded the Silence here essentially for another draw phase

Overall: Very good game, Sir


Edit RD.2/G2: Did you really have to burn the Petal and cast both, Duress and Therapy that turn? Did i misread or did you discard Ponder + Petal here and leave him the Brainstorm?

If that's the case, taking Brainstorm over Petal would have been much better, unless he floated the nuts. Making him draw 2 possible bricks in a Row (after the First Brainstorm) without any Chance to dig or shuffle would have been a near Auto-win at this point (He had max. 3 mana available afaik)

[Megadeus]

People think storm vs storm is a joke. That shit was intense. Some of the most thoughtful games were played in my opinion. We may not have been slamming thragtusks into each other, but we sure as hell had a very back and forth game.

[Lemnear]

People think storm vs storm is a joke. That shit was intense. Some of the most thoughtful games were played in my opinion. We may not have been slamming thragtusks into each other, but we sure as hell had a very back and forth game.

You'll love the storm-mirror vs. ANT featured in my upcoming report... :D

[Megadeus]

I dont know why, but whenever I tested vs ANT, I just had a lot of trouble winning. Maybe he was just ripping sick, but when I wasnt going off T1, then he was always getting Probe + Therapy.

[phazonmutant]

Edit RD.2/G2: Did you really have to burn the Petal and cast both, Duress and Therapy that turn? Did i misread or did you discard Ponder + Petal here and leave him the Brainstorm?

If that's the case, taking Brainstorm over Petal would have been much better, unless he floated the nuts. Making him draw 2 possible bricks in a Row (after the First Brainstorm) without any Chance to dig or shuffle would have been a near Auto-win at this point (He had max. 3 mana available afaik)

I know that I burned a Petal to Cabal Therapy, but you're right that it seems very incorrect to not take both cantrips... I don't remember exactly what I took, all I know is that I have Ponder and Petal crossed out on my notepad. I know that he had a Petal in play when he cast Ad Naus, so maybe he just played it next turn. Megadeus, do you remember?

[Lemnear]

I dont know why, but whenever I tested vs ANT, I just had a lot of trouble winning. Maybe he was just ripping sick, but when I wasnt going off T1, then he was always getting Probe + Therapy.

ANT has 4 modes:

1) massive discarding from the start, in which it pretty much equals the common BGx matchup sans any pressure
2) cantripping for 1-2 turns while being slower than TES and gett'n killed
3) drawing the nuts
4) loosing hard to Silence

[Megadeus]

I know that I burned a Petal to Cabal Therapy, but you're right that it seems very incorrect to not take both cantrips... I don't remember exactly what I took, all I know is that I have Ponder and Petal crossed out on my notepad. I know that he had a Petal in play when he cast Ad Naus, so maybe he just played it next turn. Megadeus, do you remember?

I think I may have had a wish or something... Or maybe Duress? I really dont remember much other than punting vs you and then punting the next Game 3 against Delver. Oh and I remember the epic donuts I ate after I left

[Lemnear]

I think I may have had a wish or something... Or maybe Duress? I really dont remember much other than punting vs you and then punting the next Game 3 against Delver. Oh and I remember the epic donuts I ate after I left

2 punts and donuts ... Sounds more like watching AFC Football than playing Magic :)

[Megadeus]

2 punts and donuts ... Sounds more like watching AFC Football than playing Magic :)

As a Miami Dolphins fan I do like AFC football. And I know all about punts as well!

I feel like my hands against you were fine. My G1 hand lacked disruption which sucked, but it was fast.

[jandax]

ANT has 4 modes:

1) massive discarding from the start, in which it pretty much equals the common BGx matchup sans any pressure
2) cantripping for 1-2 turns while being slower than TES and gett'n killed
3) drawing the nuts
4) loosing hard to Silence

So, you're saying it's a 50/50 match? :tongue:

I've played against it a few times and tested some with ANT before I decided to build and play TES instead. That's all pretty much the jest of it. Never got to play Silence ftw though. Seems as silly as losing to a Mana Tithe.

[Jay_Gatz]

ANT has 4 modes:

1) massive discarding from the start, in which it pretty much equals the common BGx matchup sans any pressure
2) cantripping for 1-2 turns while being slower than TES and gett'n killed
3) drawing the nuts
4) loosing hard to Silence

5) Killing themselves with Ad Nauseam when they try to go off too fast.

[nedleeds]

Nedleeds could be right that it's because of degenerate combo players like myself, but combo is not an easy thing to give up... I played 4c cascade last week and got lifetilted when I lost to UR Delver in the Quarters piloted by a bad player.


<derail>

Kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. Turn out is small because of something. Then people stop showing because turn out is small. It becomes a waste to drive an hour round trip (more with traffic) to just play 3 rounds. One of which is inevitably against somebody I want to throw in front of a MARTA bus. Then a non interactive 5 minute game vs. combo. So maybe I get 40 minutes of meaningful gameplay for an hour drive and $5. I'm just not interested anymore. When we were getting 4-5 rounds you got to see a variety of different stuff. 3 rounds and 12 people; with 6 on some combo or another not so much.

[Megadeus]

<derail>

Kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. Turn out is small because of something. Then people stop showing because turn out is small. It becomes a waste to drive an hour round trip (more with traffic) to just play 3 rounds. One of which is inevitably against somebody I want to throw in front of a MARTA bus. Then a non interactive 5 minute game vs. combo. So maybe I get 40 minutes of meaningful gameplay for an hour drive and $5. I'm just not interested anymore. When we were getting 4-5 rounds you got to see a variety of different stuff. 3 rounds and 12 people; with 6 on some combo or another not so much.

That is a fair point. I mean it isn't like people in our meta dont have the cards to play RUG and smash through the combo decks. I was noticing that a lot of the regulars havent been there the past couple of weeks... Here's to hoping that the summer helps to pick up the attendance.

[Lemnear]

With 12-14 peeps you can still play 3 rounds + Top 4 like we did a few weeks ago

[Megadeus]

With 12-14 peeps you can still play 3 rounds + Top 4 like we did a few weeks ago

We are more used to 20-25 people. 4 rounds and cut to top 8, 90% of the time we split top 4. People have lives and stuff and nobody wants to be there until 1 AM

[monovfox]

I was practicing this deck on cockatrice (I know, not a great testing ground) and I hit an opponent with maindeck leyline.

Game 2 he concedes after I play an LED on turn 5, and then he calls me a "****** who cannot play a really deck". *sigh* I hate noobs sometimes.

[Dark Ritual]

I was practicing this deck on cockatrice (I know, not a great testing ground) and I hit an opponent with maindeck leyline.

Game 2 he concedes after I play an LED on turn 5, and then he calls me a "****** who cannot play a really deck". *sigh* I hate noobs sometimes.

I almost assume he was playing enchantress? LED on turn 5 is hilarious. An aggro deck would have won by turn 5, and you're complaining? I can also play 'real magic' quite well, I just choose to play combo 95% of the time.

Love how he conceded to just LED and not LED + infernal tutor/wish/AdN/SOMETHING that can actually kill him. My opponents never conceded to me casting LED. But this is just how bad people on cockatrice are. It's like conceding to a black lotus when the opponent has nothing to cast with said black lotus.

[monovfox]

I know right xD !

In other news, I'm new to the deck, but why do we run brainstorm over preordain (I'm using master cook's list). I feel like there are occasionally times where I'd much rather have a preordain than a brainstorm. Someone mind explaining why we run it this way?

[phazonmutant]

I know right xD !

In other news, I'm new to the deck, but why do we run brainstorm over preordain (I'm using master cook's list). I feel like there are occasionally times where I'd much rather have a preordain than a brainstorm. Someone mind explaining why we run it this way?

How about you make the swap and get back to us? You'll find out for yourself in a couple games why Brainstorm is the most powerful card in Legacy.

[Dark Ritual]

Brainstorm enables some very sick lines of play, increases the turn 1 win percentage, and is literally the best spell in legacy. You haven't lived until you brainstorm ad nauseam on top and crack two LED's in response to a probe/cantrip of some kind into AdN. Hands that would be otherwise unkeepable in TES are improved greatly by the card. I can assure you that preordain <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< brainstorm virtually every time. Whenever I cast brainstorm with 4 or more cards in hand in storm combo in general it isn't uncommon for me to win on the spot regardless of combo deck because the card is that good.

[monovfox]

Tested preordain. Now I understand. Brainstorm is more of a "I see 3 more cards" than a "I craft my top deck" kind of deal.

Also, is it fine if I run 2 duress 3 silence 2 cabal therapy main board? I don't like drawing too many silences, as they are kinda useless with chrome mox.

[jin]

Tested preordain. Now I understand. Brainstorm is more of a "I see 3 more cards" than a "I craft my top deck" kind of deal.

Also, is it fine if I run 2 duress 3 silence 2 cabal therapy main board? I don't like drawing too many silences, as they are kinda useless with chrome mox.

You can put the cards that you don't want in your hand back. It is draw 3 cards and then put 2 back. The 2 does not have to be in the 3 that you draw. I felt like I needed to make that clear, because it didn't seem like you got that from your responses. If you did, then I apologize. Most people that play Legacy magic know this.

This is why Brainstorm is considered the "best card" in Legacy. Also, it's the only format where Brainstorm can be played as a 4 of, so that speaks a lot about it.

Your disruption suit depends on your metagame. If you have more traditional blue control decks that play heavy counter magic, you'll find that Silence is better, but if you have more Counterbalance type decks or less blue control decks, then hand disruption might be better...

[Lemnear]

Also, is it fine if I run 2 duress 3 silence 2 cabal therapy main board? I don't like drawing too many silences, as they are kinda useless with chrome mox.

At this point i want to make a very bold Statement and say: If you want to chop down the playset of silences you don't use Silence properly.


We are more used to 20-25 people. 4 rounds and cut to top 8, 90% of the time we split top 4. People have lives and stuff and nobody wants to be there until 1 AM

Playing out Top 8 with less than 30 people is rather pointless imo. I rather play another regular round. I hate it to play only 5-6 rounds in a tournament and facing some peeps a second time in near each of the Elimination rounds. I will push the idea of get'n rid of our common Top 4 faceoff in favor of a pure Swiss-Concept to see more different opponents in my playtime

Edit: In 3 of the last tournaments i still have not played against all the regulars there because of that crap and i really want to face the problematic matchups like miracles/stoneblade which get often stomped by 12-Post/NicFit/Jund and shit in the rounds 1 or 2 and this being effectively out of my reach (most of the time). playing against Combo or Jund all Day gets boring

[Kayradis]

Tested against a standard build of Combo Elves yesterday with a good friend of mine who's getting more into legacy.
Even with tons of misplays from my part, I was able to do T1 kill once and T2 kill twice. The other games I was sticking to playing Silence during his upkeep to stop his combo.

Overall?
-I have a lot to learn about that deck;
-Pen and papers are a MUST! You were right guys!
-Damn, it's so amazing to play!

Thanks for introducing me to that list. Next step? Acquire LEDs.

[Megadeus]

Combo Elves is a damn good MU for us. I have never lost to them. Unless your hand is absolute garbage you should be fine vs them. Watch out for MB Trap in G2+3.

[phazonmutant]

Thanks for introducing me to that list. Next step? Acquire LEDs.

That one's going to hurt... The market price on Reserve List cards has shot through the roof across the board over the past few years. It's a worthwhile investment though! There's nothing quite like playing with 8 Demonic Tutors, 4 Ancestral Recalls, and 4 Black Lotuses (Loti?) in your deck.

[Zombie]

Wish is not a Demonic Tutor D:

[jandax]

Combo Elves is a damn good MU for us. I have never lost to them. Unless your hand is absolute garbage you should be fine vs them. Watch out for MB Trap in G2+3.

@Kayradis

Thorn of Amethyst and Cabal Therapy are also popular options, also Gaddock Teeg isn't uncommon. Expect Therapies from the decks that play Duals, and Thorns from the mono G lists. And Elves is indeed a very good matchup, silence is a house. There's really no need to spend time testing it. Just know that they'll bring in 4-8 cards that can potentially ruin your day G2/G3, and don't board out all your disruption. For the combo turn it's nice to have a Duress or Silence to protect yourself, there's just no reason to lose such an easy matchup.

[s0205659]

Doing some testing lately and my meta is infested with discard. it's really hard to win vs

T1 inquisition
T2 hymn
T3 liliana

Our main strategy vs discard is to play artifact mana and sit for a tutor. But that's not really an option against liliana.
what's the best sideboard card vs discard? I was thinking leyline of sanctity ( also has the potential to shutdown other decks like the mirror match ).
Problem is: your ad nauseam gets a lot worse, but i think the correct play vs discard is to play an early ETW. Still i'm hoping there's a card that fits better in TES

Any thoughts?

[Lemnear]

Doing some testing lately and my meta is infested with discard. it's really hard to win vs

T1 inquisition
T2 hymn
T3 liliana

Our main strategy vs discard is to play artifact mana and sit for a tutor. But that's not really an option against liliana.
what's the best sideboard card vs discard? I was thinking leyline of sanctity ( also has the potential to shutdown other decks like the mirror match ).
Problem is: your ad nauseam gets a lot worse, but i think the correct play vs discard is to play an early ETW. Still i'm hoping there's a card that fits better in TES

Any thoughts?

The issue was discussed several times and is adressed in the reports you can find in my signature. The Solution to discard heavy matchups is Past in Flames and Silence

Leyline is nonsense. It Deals 4 damage to you off Ad Nauseam forces you to ugly mulligans and does nothing in the mirror

[s0205659]

The issue was discussed several times and is adressed in the reports you can find in my signature. The Solution to discard heavy matchups is Past in Flames and Silence

Leyline is nonsense. It Deals 4 damage to you off Ad Nauseam forces you to ugly mulligans and does nothing in the mirror



It does nothing in the mirror?
- they can't tendrils you
- they can't duress, cabal therapy, gitaxian probe you and hence can't go off safely. A simple silence wins the game here.

*As i said before, it's just a mere example. It's good in the mirror, but also against burn, other combo decks and all discarding decks.
*As for the ad nauseam: please read my post. In this matchup i want to combo off into ETW, not in tendrils.
*Past in flames might be good enough against targeted discard spells, but just isn't good enough against recurring discard like liliana ( which all discard decks play ). Once it sticks, it's very hard to get to the 4-5 mana needed, especially if your lands get wasted.
*Silence also isn't the best choice here. Most G2 they start the game, open with inquisition, take a needed piece to start going off. silencing them on their second turn doesn't matter that much if you can't go off the next turn.

[Lemnear]

It does nothing in the mirror?
- they can't tendrils you
- they can't duress, cabal therapy, gitaxian probe you and hence can't go off safely. A simple silence wins the game here.

*As i said before, it's just a mere example. It's good in the mirror, but also against burn, other combo decks and all discarding decks.
*As for the ad nauseam: please read my post. In this matchup i want to combo off into ETW, not in tendrils.
*Past in flames might be good enough against targeted discard spells, but just isn't good enough against recurring discard like liliana ( which all discard decks play ). Once it sticks, it's very hard to get to the 4-5 mana needed, especially if your lands get wasted.
*Silence also isn't the best choice here. Most G2 they start the game, open with inquisition, take a needed piece to start going off. silencing them on their second turn doesn't matter that much if you can't go off the next turn.

Who cares about Tendrils? Cast Ad Nauseam into EtW and play Silence in their upkeep. You can still probe yourself or use Silence to prevent theirs trying to interrupt your Combo turn. I don't comment the idea of boarding Therapies over Xantids against Leyline.

- The "other" current Legacy Combo decks are S&T variants or reanimator-style, Leyline does nothing here. Burn.dec isn't a real issue by it's nature.
- Sorry, I won through a Liliana in topdeck Mode in a Jund matchup and have at least an idea how this situation can be adressed. I don't think it's THAT bad. This matchups is only a problem if you keep ugly hands. Artificial situations like IoK, Hymn, Liliana then Wastelanding without you being able to Silence-Walk or Combo off during 3 fucking turns isn't a very common setting in a real game.
- We have 2 Jund playing regulars at our tournament series which I played often so far. I wrote about keeping sketchy hands like U.Sea, 2 Rituals, LED, Infernal and then wondering why you loose to Inquisition Turn 1. Silence is still a thing preventing Hymn/Liliana and giving you another turn. You can read all about that in my reports.

[Megadeus]

PiF is a house vs Liliana decks. Sure sometimes they get the nutters and they win, but you cant really beat the nutters disruption hands. I have had my Jund opponents have the T1 Seize, T2 Hymn, T3 Liliana, 4 times, and I am 3-1 in those games. You simply wish for a PiF and just sit on it. Every top decked mana source gets discarded to Liliana, and then you activate LEDs and Rape your opponent. It is difficult, but it is more than possible to fight through.

[Kayradis]

Played against BUG today just for shits and giggles....Well, played is a pretty big term since I went off turn 2/3 every game.

Damn. I love that deck!

Anybody playing the deck this weekend at SCG Seattle? Im watching the stream hoping to see someone wrack their opponent's day with a steady T2/3 kill.

[Megadeus]

Depends which BUG you played against... Shardless? Ive found Bug Delver to be annoying as shit.

[Kayradis]

BUG Control.
Based of the fact that I didn't see any creature makes me believe so.

Still, Im gonna keep working on the deck. Ill let you know my progress.

[jin]

PiF is a house vs Liliana decks. Sure sometimes they get the nutters and they win, but you cant really beat the nutters disruption hands. I have had my Jund opponents have the T1 Seize, T2 Hymn, T3 Liliana, 4 times, and I am 3-1 in those games. You simply wish for a PiF and just sit on it. Every top decked mana source gets discarded to Liliana, and then you activate LEDs and Rape your opponent. It is difficult, but it is more than possible to fight through.

What about Deathrite Shaman?

[thefringthing]

Looks like nothing remotely playable for us (or any Legacy deck for that matter) in Dragon's Maze. A little disappointing I suppose.

[Lemnear]

Looks like nothing remotely playable for us (or any Legacy deck for that matter) in Dragon's Maze. A little disappointing I suppose.

Too be honest, it would be rather suprising to find anything for Storm-Combo in a 5/6/7cc-creature-themed-expansion.

@folks: HotS Vol.3 was delayed for a few days while being originally announced for the past Weekend. Had to spend time with my new, stunning beautiful GF :DD

[Kayradis]

@folks: HotS Vol.3 was delayed for a few days while being originally announced for the past Weekend. Had to spend time with my new, stunning beautiful GF :DD

Boobs > Magic.

Unfortunate but true.

[Zombie]

Goldfishing is fun :P
Ripped UG Sea, Petal, LED, LED, Infernal => T1 AdN with B in pool at full HP. About 8 drawn cards would've scored a lethal Tendrils but hey, this deck can showboat, or so I've heard...

So we'll draw more cards! Hm, Petal, Silence just in case. Then some (4) rituals, another LED, Infernal for Wish for Past in Flames, uh...
ETW @ 34? Nice. But we can do more.
ETW @ 46! Goblin population totals is 160 :D
Seasoned with Grapeshot for 47. With 1 black mana floating. My foresight was not enough to grab Therapy for more Goblins and burnination.

IGG for LED, LED, LED feels filthy.

[Megadeus]

What about Deathrite Shaman?

DRS can cause problems, but if it comes down after Liliana it is a bit slow. And if they have the nutters like that then GG, but how often will that actually happen? Probably less than the amount of time that you blow your load on their face on turn 1. Sometimes your opponent just has all of the answers. You cant worry about everything. If you are worried about that then you wouldnt be playing this deck.

[Star|Scream]

DRS can cause problems, but if it comes down after Liliana it is a bit slow. And if they have the nutters like that then GG, but how often will that actually happen? Probably less than the amount of time that you blow your load on their face on turn 1. Sometimes your opponent just has all of the answers. You cant worry about everything. If you are worried about that then you wouldnt be playing this deck.

Was that necessary?

[Megadeus]

Was that necessary?

Very. If it isnt vulgar, it isnt fun. Also Im like a 12 year old. I like cursing.

[jin]

DRS can cause problems, but if it comes down after Liliana it is a bit slow. And if they have the nutters like that then GG, but how often will that actually happen? Probably less than the amount of time that you blow your load on their face on turn 1. Sometimes your opponent just has all of the answers. You cant worry about everything. If you are worried about that then you wouldnt be playing this deck.

What I meant was, if you Wish too early, they can change their game plan and just get you with Deathrite Shaman. Or they might not have the back to back discard and just held back the Deathrite Shaman in fear of dying first turn. In which case, your Wish target might have been a poor choice...

[Megadeus]

I usually wait until the last possible moment to wish. If it is turn 4 and they have shredded my hand a bit, They have an active Liliana and I draw LED for my turn, Ill play out my LED and wish for PiF. If they play DRS then Oh well I suppose. Maybe it isnt the right play, but I haven't lost with this line of play before (though I did sack into a win before) and I probably would do it again if it comes up. Like I said, sometimes they just get all of the hate and you just cannot win. That is the risk that you run.

[Lemnear]

New HotS-Report is up!

Heart of the Swarm Vol.3 - Day of the Tentacle (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25918-Heart-of-the-Storm-3-Day-of-the-Tentacle&p=720134#post720134)

Enjoy!

[jin]

I usually wait until the last possible moment to wish. If it is turn 4 and they have shredded my hand a bit, They have an active Liliana and I draw LED for my turn, Ill play out my LED and wish for PiF. If they play DRS then Oh well I suppose. Maybe it isnt the right play, but I haven't lost with this line of play before (though I did sack into a win before) and I probably would do it again if it comes up. Like I said, sometimes they just get all of the hate and you just cannot win. That is the risk that you run.

Ok, I just wanted to clear that up. You made it sound like you just BW into Past in Flames and won with ease. I didn't want people to be misinformed. That line of play makes sense.

I don't know how well LED works with Past in Flames, but there you have it...

[Megadeus]

I mean with all of your spells and a PiF in the yard your yard is basically your hand and LED is actually a black lotus. So yeah.

[jandax]

It's about the only way to win if you are going to a long game vs discard. Black Lotus is tech.

[Kayradis]

New HotS-Report is up!

Heart of the Swarm Vol.3 - Day of the Tentacle (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25918-Heart-of-the-Storm-3-Day-of-the-Tentacle&p=720134#post720134)

Enjoy!

I feel like a 15 years old about to watch a Twilight movie!

Arhump......

Well.
Yes. Im excited.

[TraxDaMax]

New HotS-Report is up!

Heart of the Swarm Vol.3 - Day of the Tentacle (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25918-Heart-of-the-Storm-3-Day-of-the-Tentacle&p=720134#post720134)

Enjoy!

lol nice work.. taking down the event and getting the girl's number. Luck is an attitude ;)

[Lemnear]

lol nice work.. taking down the event and getting the girl's number. Luck is an attitude ;)

"Luck" is the result of hard work in both cases. :)

[BrettF]

I played TES at SCG seattle going 4-5.
Quick synopsis:

Round 1 - The Rock (V.S. sdematt himself)
Lost the roll. Lost in 3. Matt’s disruption: Cabal therapy, Deed, Thalia, Hymn.
0-1

Round 2 - Merfolk
Lost the roll. Won in 2. Disruption: Pierce, Daze, FOW.
1-1

Round 3 - Esper Stoneblade
Lost the roll. Lost in 3. Distruption: FOW, Thoughtseize, Inquisition, Spell Pierce.
1-2

Round 4 - B/W Deadguy
Lost the roll. Won in 2. Disruption: Thoughtseize, Inquisition, Hymn, Sculler, Thalia.
2-2

Round 5 - Reanimator
Lost the roll. Lost in 2. Disruption: Thoughtseize, Daze, FOW, and Turn2 Grissels.
2-3

Round 6 - RUG Delver
Won the Roll. Won in 2. Disruption: Force, Daze, Pierce, Snare, Stifle.
3-3

Round 7 - U/R Delver
Lost the Roll. Lost in 3. Disruption: Force, Daze, Pierce.Harsh punted game three sacking my 18th goblin to cabal therapy for no reason while hes at exactly 18. Fuck meeeeee.
3-4

Round 8 - Jund
Lost the roll. Lost in 2. Disruption: Thoughtseize, Inquisition, Hymn, Golgari Charm.
3-5

Round 9 - Jund
Won the roll. Won in 2. Disruption: Thoughtseize, Inquisition, Hymn, Golgari Charm.
4-5

I deffinitly punted in round 7, and messed up a brainstorm in round 8.
I only mulled to 5 a couple times, so maybe i could have mulled a bit harder in the tougher matches on the play.

[Lemnear]

I only mulled to 5 a couple times, so maybe i could have mulled a bit harder in the tougher matches on the play.

I doubt half of those mulls to 5 were necessary. If you fear passing your turn after being on the play use Silence, Probe and Brainstorm for Protection

Edit:
@folks: Can we stop mulligan discussions without notes about the starting grip? It's impossible

[festeringGAB]

Hi, I have a question about an opening hand...
Last night in a tournament of 20 people I finish 3-1, losing the last 2-1 against UBg cascade.
We are 1-1 and my hand is:

Wish
Rite of Flame
Rite of Flame
City of brass
LED
LED
Brainstorm

I'll go first, he takes a mulligan to 6, I thought that without lands in play was reasonable do 12 goblins, and risking FOW, so I did...and so I died by double FOW ...
Is this the right way?or I must wait for cast brainstorm?

thanks

[jandax]

Game one against BUG cascade you keep that and make a bunch of dudes, they rarely have FoW maindeck. Game three on the other hand...I'd keep that hand and sit on the brainstorm. What did he bring in against you? How did you side against him? I think it was too greedy to walk into a FoW, especially if he kept his seven or snap kept another hand.

[Lemnear]

Hi, I have a question about an opening hand...
Last night in a tournament of 20 people I finish 3-1, losing the last 2-1 against UBg cascade.
We are 1-1 and my hand is:

Wish
Rite of Flame
Rite of Flame
City of brass
LED
LED
Brainstorm

I'll go first, he takes a mulligan to 6, I thought that without lands in play was reasonable do 12 goblins, and risking FOW, so I did...and so I died by double FOW ...
Is this the right way?or I must wait for cast brainstorm?

thanks

In face of possible Discard, Wasteland, Taxing Counters and FoW depending on his build, pushing All-In here against a mulligan is reasonable. If you have Knowledge about his build gained in G1/G2 aka a lack of Discard or Wastelands you can opt to sculpt your hand first.

It's outright possible that your opponent mulliganed into a Discard Spell or taxing counter and just accepts the possible T1 Kill before going to 5 cards. Mulligan into T1 discard on the play or FoW on the draw is a loosing play vs TES in many cases

[festeringGAB]

Game one against BUG cascade you keep that and make a bunch of dudes, they rarely have FoW maindeck. Game three on the other hand...I'd keep that hand and sit on the brainstorm. What did he bring in against you? How did you side against him? I think it was too greedy to walk into a FoW, especially if he kept his seven or snap kept another hand.

Post side I have only +1 Cabal Therapy -1 Infernal tutor
I think that, if he side in pernicious dead can destroy my goblin on turn 3, and I kill he on turn 2..and in the other match I see wasteland duress hymn thoughtseize, I was scare about discard on turn one.

however..the other 3 cards on the top are: fetch fetch cabal therapy and in his hand there are only 2 tarmo 2 force 2 land, if I cast brainstorm probably I win with cabal on FOW..
thanks for your advice

:)

[Dia_Bot]

Post side I have only +1 Cabal Therapy -1 Infernal tutor
I think that, if he side in pernicious dead can destroy my goblin on turn 3, and I kill he on turn 2..and in the other match I see wasteland duress hymn thoughtseize, I was scare about discard on turn one.

however..the other 3 cards on the top are: fetch fetch cabal therapy and in his hand there are only 2 tarmo 2 force 2 land, if I cast brainstorm probably I win with cabal on FOW..
thanks for your advice

:)

A good question to ask yourself in those situations is: what would the impact be if he only had a single hate card the first turn (in this case this would be a one mana discard spell, a wastland or a FOW + blue card).
A single discard spell wouldt have been so bad because you could still BS your wish on top and had enough mana to make somthing work with only the cards in your hand.
A wasteland would destroy your only mana source if your BS would wiff.
Force wouldn't have impact on his first turn and you would have time to brainstorm for protection.
So in retrospect I would say waiting for a turn wouldn't have been the worse thing.

[Lemnear]

A good question to ask yourself in those situations is: what would the impact be if he only had a single hate card the first turn (in this case this would be a one mana discard spell, a wastland or a FOW + blue card).
A single discard spell wouldt have been so bad because you could still BS your wish on top and had enough mana to make somthing work with only the cards in your hand.
A wasteland would destroy your only mana source if your BS would wiff.
Force wouldn't have impact on his first turn and you would have time to brainstorm for protection.
So in retrospect I would say waiting for a turn wouldn't have been the worse thing.

The problem is more complex.

Passing the turn equals that you play out the LED's to prevent shit like Therapy for the no.1 Target LED. If you pass the Turn you can't get a reasonable stcormcount for EtW therefore and/or fall victim to natural Deed unlike casting it first turn, which would require him having mana acceleration (DRS) to be in time. So passing the turn puts you into Diminishing Returns or IGG (in case you find Wish/Tutor with BS). Would you like to negate the mulligan of a blue opponent with D.Returns here? I would not

[Dia_Bot]

The problem is more complex.

Passing the turn equals that you play out the LED's to prevent shit like Therapy for the no.1 Target LED. If you pass the Turn you can't get a reasonable stcormcount for EtW therefore and/or fall victim to natural Deed unlike casting it first turn, which would require him having mana acceleration (DRS) to be in time. So passing the turn puts you into Diminishing Returns or IGG (in case you find Wish/Tutor with BS). Would you like to negate the mulligan of a blue opponent with D.Returns here? I would not

I see your point although I would like to point out that BUG will rarely play Cabal Therapy because their creatures are way to valuable. After side most builds bring in extra counters. Therefor playing out your LED's turn one seems unnecessary in my opinion.
Diminishing returns and IGG will indeed not be very optimal against a blue opponent. However, in case you could find another tutor PiF is another option (LED,LED,RoF,RoF, Wish > PiF > RoF, RoF, tutor, Tendrils). But I do agree that the problem is complex indeed (there are too many variables involved in brainstorming to get a clear cut answer) and going for it turn one is certainly not wrong.

[Lemnear]

It's hard for me atm to frame the BUG.dec in question. I don't know how this special subtype is "used to build", either relying on Discard, Counters or Tempo-cards. Therefore my analysis is incomplete.

Variables with Brainstorm involved are in any case a lot more than going straight for the kill, which was the most important point took into consideration

[Asthereal]

I thought BUG lists and their disruption were:

"Shardless" main: 4 FoW, 4-7 discard spells, side: Pierce, Flusterstorm (3-4 in total)
"BUG Jace Control: main: 4 FoW, 2-3 Pierce, 1-2 Counterspell, side: 3-4 discard, 2-3 Pierce/Flusterstorm
"Team America" main: 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 2-3 Pierce, 0-2 Snare, 4 discard (either targeted or Hymn), side: 2-3 Pierce/Flusterstorm

All variants can have Deeds or Pulses side (Jace Control plays 4 Deeds main), so Empty is not a fail proof option.
Right now no-one plays Stifle in BUG (except for myself obviously :laugh: I still have a BUG Tempo list I consider for tournaments).

[Bahamuth]

BUG has no answers to turn 1 10+ tokens except for FoW. I always try to win turn 1 with that hand.

[Dia_Bot]

BUG has no answers to turn 1 10+ tokens except for FoW.

That is wrong. DRS + Deed or pulse gets the job done. Granted this will need 1 fetch, 1 shaman and 1 pulse/deed in 6 cards + 2 draws.

[Lemnear]

That is wrong. DRS + Deed or pulse gets the job done. Granted this will need 1 fetch, 1 shaman and 1 pulse/deed.

That's what I said before. I'd gamble for that any Day of the week!

[festeringGAB]

That is wrong. DRS + Deed or pulse gets the job done. Granted this will need 1 fetch, 1 shaman and 1 pulse/deed in 6 cards + 2 draws.

the BUG list is like this: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10647&iddeck=77694
so you think that my choice of SB is right or not? (+1 Cabal Therapy -1 Infernal tutor)
there are other option?
you side out always ETW?

[Lemnear]

the BUG list is like this: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10647&iddeck=77694
so you think that my choice of SB is right or not? (+1 Cabal Therapy -1 Infernal tutor)
there are other option?
you side out always ETW?

Against that list, I wouldn't bother boarding. It's much like the Jund-matchup + 4 Fow. Siding out cards that enable you to win before Hymn hits you is a Bad idea

Edit: i would not board out EtW just because a deck has 3 cards in his 75 that can save his ass from the goblins but are complete dead vs. 73 cards of your deck

[BrettF]

I got golgari charmed a couple times at scgseattle.

[Dia_Bot]

Against a list like that playing the stock 8 cards disruption is fine. So I woudn't board aswell.
Ofcourse (apart from some rare cases) in a tournament setting you won't know what your opponent will bring in. In that case I think your boarding plan was fine.
I don't side out EtW aswell because it's still a very nice wincon against blue decks (the 4 cards he can bring in against it can still be discarded if you plan on going EtW)

[Asthereal]

There's also the Silence walk you can play to stop them from casting Deed/Pulse. I would also keep Empty in.

I actually almost never side it out anyway. I like it too much. :smile: Simply dumping 8 dudes on turn 1 and then cantripping into a new way to go off while the opponent tries to deal with your team is a very fine strategy.

[Lemnear]

Of course (apart from some rare cases) in a tournament setting you won't know what your opponent will bring in. In that case I think your boarding plan was fine.

You have to ask yourself: Do I want to get into a discard-carnage with a deck running Thoughtseize, Hymn and Liliana of the Veil or bring business to the table/stack asap?

I laugh every time at Jund players with their Hymns and Lilly's in their hand while I smash with tokens

Edit 4 example off HotS Vol.2:



Game 2 vs Jund

I decide to keep a hand which does not auto-fold to Thoughtseize which looks like this

Gemstone Mine
Silence
Burning Wish
Dark Ritual
EtW
Volcanic Island
Brainstorm

He opens with Verdant Catacomb into Bayou into DRS. I draw Infernal Tutor for the turn, play Gemstone and Silence-walk him in case of Hymn. He drops a forest and passes his turn. I draw Probe and decide to give it a try and indeed find 2 Hymn and another DRS in company with Sylvan Library + Swamp in his hand. I get a Mox and Brainstorm off the played Volcanic into Probe, Brainstorm and Petal. I put back the Wish and the Infernal, play Petal, Probe (draw Infernal), Mox (imprint Infernal), Brainstorm off Gemstone Mine into another Mine, Wish and Ad Nauseam and drop 16 Goblins into play. He drops Library then eats 15 damage with his DRS blocking a Goblin, I drop Gemstone after drawing the Wish. Wish for Therapy, cast Therapy for DRS, hit one and pass. He looks at the top 3 with his Library and offers the handshake.

[Asthereal]

I laugh every time at Jund players with their Hymns and Lilly's in their hand while I smash with tokens
Isn't that basically what this deck does: laugh at Jund players? :cool:

[Lemnear]

Isn't that basically what this deck does: laugh at Jund players? :cool:

Ask Bryant to add "Laughing" as a Sideboard strategy in the OP for Jund

[Megadeus]

Yeah Jund is weird and I usually just dont board lol.

[Kayradis]

I don't see myself boarding anything against JUND TBH.

[Lemnear]

I don't see myself boarding anything against JUND TBH.

Learned your lesson you have, young padawan ;)

[Asthereal]

I usually do board against Jund. Some extra discard and two Decays for the Silences.
I prefer discarding their Hymns to Silence-walking.
Decays kill Lily, which can be a great help sometimes.

Results for this boarding plan: wins only. If we don't count my rediculous play errors, that is. :tongue:

[Kayradis]

I usually do board against Jund. Some extra discard and two Decays for the Silences.
I prefer discarding their Hymns to Silence-walking.
Decays kill Lily, which can be a great help sometimes.

Results for this boarding plan: wins only. If we don't count my rediculous play errors, that is. :tongue:

You boarding the decay implies that you fear a T2 Liliana. There's better way to deal with that IMO. Unless they have the hand "that will make all the other ashamed" and a perfect acceleration, you should ALWAYS be in good position.

And anyway, by T2, you should be in position do do :
1-A huge shift in board state in your advantage(What will liliana do with 10/12 Goblins on the table?)
2-Win the game; (Ad Nauseam to Tendril/Alt. Wincon)
3-Already have dealt with Liliana (Grapeshot, storm trigger, all target liliana!)

I've been testing the deck for approx. 2 weeks now. I played Reanimator, Merfolks, Combo Elves, Stoneblade, BUG Aggro & Control and other deck. None of those deck ever gave me a consistent draw like T.E.S.


Bryant Cook,
Sir,
Thank you.
You changed the face of my game!

[Megadeus]

3-Already have dealt with Liliana (Grapeshot, storm trigger, all target liliana!)


Remember to hit a PW with a burn spell such as a Lightning Bolt or even Grapeshots, you target the player, then redirect the damage to the PW. For example, storm is at 7 and liliana is at 6, you grapeshot the opponent, then redirect six of the damage (each individual copy) to Liliana, then deal the last point to their face. This is relevant if they have a Leyline of Sanctity out. You will not be able to hurt the walker through burn spells.

[fogxanic]

Today I played at local tournament. One match was vs. esper stoneblade. Game 3 I was on play and hand was 3 LED, 2 Infernal Tutor, 1 Dark Ritual, 1 Silence. I kept it is it right choice? Well at the end it was. I played leds first 2 turns because did't draw any lands. At some point of game opponent has sf mystic and batterskull on battlefield he got me down to 2 life. EOT brainstorm with city of brass for 1 life :tongue: Then I started playing, opponent has 25 life and time came at my turn. Opponent had hydroblast in his hand that I saw earlier. I played silence which resolved. Tutored some burning wishes and went for pif. Then doing some mana with all I had in my gy. Storm count was not enough even after I tutored 4th led and all. Then bw into diminishing returns with R and U on pool. Draw 2 leds, petal and 2 ponders and some irrelevant cards. First ponder gave nothing and for second ponder I cracked leds and found bw into tendrills 19 storm :cool:

[TraxDaMax]

"Luck" is the result of hard work in both cases. :)




Was pun intended if that wasn't clear ;)
http://www.joujouvilleroy.com/static/data/images/galleries/1302/20120704242810vipal-environmental-awareness-panda.jpg

to follow up on your story :)

Anyways, good job. Was a good read.

[Lemnear]

Awesome! Did not know that ad campaign :D

[Whippoorwill]

I played TES at SCG Seattle as well to a disappointing 1-3 drop.

Round 1 vs Sneak and Show (Thea Steele)
Game 1: She mulls to 6 and I win off Empty for 12 Goblins.
Game 2: I get Griselbranded.
Game 3: She mulls to 6 and I go to 5. At one point she hardcasts Sneak Attack (using a Lotus Petal to do so) but has no mana to activate. On my turn I Chain it back to her hand (waiting til my turn to avoid Daze). A couple turns later I Empty for some Goblins. She recasts Sneak next turn and I swing with my Goblins. The following turn she has the mana to put both Griselbrand and Emrakul into play.

0-1

Round 2 vs Bant Blade
Game 1: I Tendrils him for 20 thanks to his Force on my Silence.
Game 2: An early Empty gets him to scoop.

1-1

Round 3 vs RiP/Helm
Game 1: After a couple turns I resolve a Silence and proceed to Grapeshot him for 20.
Game 2: He gets out Ethersworn Cannonist which I end up Decaying. He later gets a Counterbalance out. I cast Lotus Petal which gets the blind flip counter. I proceed to play another Petal and 2 LEDs before casting Empty. He has 2 cards in hand and 4 lands. He Tutors at eot for RiP. I'm confused until he plays the Helm that was in his hand the next turn. I don't draw the Duress on my turn. :(
Game 3: Long story short: I stupidly cast Empty for a bunch of Goblins knowing he has a Detention Sphere in hand. Derp.

1-2

Round 4 vs ANT
Game 1: I Probe him on the play and laugh when I see his hand. He asks if I'm playing Storm as well and I say yes. He takes off his hat and starts laughing and accidentally knocks his deck off the table. I eventually kill him with Tendrils.
Game 2: He gets there with Tendrils.
Game 3: Turn 1 Probe on the play. I follow that up with Ad Nauseum. I proceed to flip the worst Ad Nauseum I've ever cast with the deck. I think I flipped just about every 1cc non-ritual and only 2 Lotus Petals and 1 Mox for mana. All I needed was 1 of the 3 LEDs left in my deck. During the Ad Nauseum I kept going til I hit 1 even when I was at <5 life. I didn't like continuing at 2 life, but I thought the odds of drawing mana would be in my favor. I ended up Duressing him and Silencewalking him the next 2 turns just trying to survive. It worked but he eventually drew the Tendrils for the win.

1-3

After that terrible Ad Nauseum I just didn't feel like playing the deck anymore (that day).

[Megadeus]

Im glad that I am not the only person who flips his worst Ad Nauseams at SCG opens.

[Lemnear]

I played TES at SCG Seattle as well to a disappointing 1-3 drop.

Round 1 vs Sneak and Show (Thea Steele)
Game 1: She mulls to 6 and I win off Empty for 12 Goblins.
Game 2: I get Griselbranded.
Game 3: She mulls to 6 and I go to 5. At one point she hardcasts Sneak Attack (using a Lotus Petal to do so) but has no mana to activate. On my turn I Chain it back to her hand (waiting til my turn to avoid Daze). A couple turns later I Empty for some Goblins. She recasts Sneak next turn and I swing with my Goblins. The following turn she has the mana to put both Griselbrand and Emrakul into play.

0-1

Round 2 vs Bant Blade
Game 1: I Tendrils him for 20 thanks to his Force on my Silence.
Game 2: An early Empty gets him to scoop.

1-1

Round 3 vs RiP/Helm
Game 1: After a couple turns I resolve a Silence and proceed to Grapeshot him for 20.
Game 2: He gets out Ethersworn Cannonist which I end up Decaying. He later gets a Counterbalance out. I cast Lotus Petal which gets the blind flip counter. I proceed to play another Petal and 2 LEDs before casting Empty. He has 2 cards in hand and 4 lands. He Tutors at eot for RiP. I'm confused until he plays the Helm that was in his hand the next turn. I don't draw the Duress on my turn. :(
Game 3: Long story short: I stupidly cast Empty for a bunch of Goblins knowing he has a Detention Sphere in hand. Derp.

1-2

Round 4 vs ANT
Game 1: I Probe him on the play and laugh when I see his hand. He asks if I'm playing Storm as well and I say yes. He takes off his hat and starts laughing and accidentally knocks his deck off the table. I eventually kill him with Tendrils.
Game 2: He gets there with Tendrils.
Game 3: Turn 1 Probe on the play. I follow that up with Ad Nauseum. I proceed to flip the worst Ad Nauseum I've ever cast with the deck. I think I flipped just about every 1cc non-ritual and only 2 Lotus Petals and 1 Mox for mana. All I needed was 1 of the 3 LEDs left in my deck. During the Ad Nauseum I kept going til I hit 1 even when I was at <5 life. I didn't like continuing at 2 life, but I thought the odds of drawing mana would be in my favor. I ended up Duressing him and Silencewalking him the next 2 turns just trying to survive. It worked but he eventually drew the Tendrils for the win.

1-3

After that terrible Ad Nauseum I just didn't feel like playing the deck anymore (that day).

Rd.1/G3: why you didn't board out the EtW/Wished for it against SneakShow? It's a punt

Rd.3/G3: Punt indeed

Rd4/G3: how can you cast AN + having 2 additional turns without winning here?

[Whippoorwill]

Rd.1/G3: why you didn't board out the EtW/Wished for it against SneakShow? It's a punt

Rd.3/G3: Punt indeed

Rd4/G3: how can you cast AN + having 2 additional turns without winning here?

R1G3: I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure I didn't have a Burning Wish and the Empty was from my hand.

R3G3: Yeah :(

R4G3: The Ad Nauseum was that bad. 2 Petals, 1 Mox, 0 Rituals, 0 Rites, 0 LEDs, 0 Wishes, 1+ Tutor. I Brainstormed after the AdN the same turn only to see 3 spells (more 1cc spells) that would have killed me if I had kept going. I couldn't use Fetchlands either for the shuffle effect the following turn due to being at 1 life. My board state when I passed the turn was Sea, Mox (Blue), 2x Petal. Ponder for my shuffle effect got me nowhere as well.

[Kayradis]

Alright. Tonight, unless something unpredictable happens again, I'll be able to play in a small proxies allowed tournament.
Metagame is Jund, an elves players and a bunch of RUG/UR deck and the occasional Mono R Stompy.

Let's see if I can curb stomp some opponent with the list. I think I tested enough in the past 2 weeks to be ready.

Hopefully Ill post a short report tonight or tomorrow!

[Lemnear]

Alright. Tonight, unless something unpredictable happens again, I'll be able to play in a small proxies allowed tournament.
Metagame is Jund, an elves players and a bunch of RUG/UR deck and the occasional Mono R Stompy.

Let's see if I can curb stomp some opponent with the list. I think I tested enough in the past 2 weeks to be ready.

Hopefully Ill post a short report tonight or tomorrow!

Looking forward ... note starting hands!

[Kayradis]

I will. The only thing I dont like is the fact that I can't enjoy some refreshing drinks.

Weird story, but I proven that I play better legacy drunk. Top 8'ed a Legacy event at a GP with elves while being totally plastered from the night before... My buddy was judging this event and was standing next to me to spot my first drunk misplay. Never happenned! Lol

Alright.

I might have some free time at work. Throw me some hands and Ill say if I snap keep or mull.

[TraxDaMax]

I will. The only thing I dont like is the fact that I can't enjoy some refreshing drinks.

Weird story, but I proven that I play better legacy drunk. Top 8'ed a Legacy event at a GP with elves while being totally plastered from the night before... My buddy was judging this event and was standing next to me to spot my first drunk misplay. Never happenned! Lol

Alright.

I might have some free time at work. Throw me some hands and Ill say if I snap keep or mull.

I have that bad habit aswell. I think it could be:

- our first thought usually is the best, and while drunk/hungover, one thought is often all our brain can afford

- Or our plays are so incredibly dumb that they are misleading having our opponents make even worse choices.

- The bluff factor becomes irrelevant


For TES a lot of these factors can be really good, or really bad and backfire on you though :)

[Kayradis]

Went 1-3 tonight. Being my first night playing a combo deck I was aware that i was gonna do a lot of misplay and keep sub optimal hands. Was able to T2 EtW once, did T3 kill with tendrils twice. I check my notes and write a better resume of the night.

[TraxDaMax]

Went 1-3 tonight. Being my first night playing a combo deck I was aware that i was gonna do a lot of misplay and keep sub optimal hands. Was able to T2 EtW once, did T3 kill with tendrils twice. I check my notes and write a better resume of the night.




Anxious to hear the report nevertheless. We can also learn from others mistakes. ( if you made any)

[Bryant Cook]

Cook’s Kitchen – A Sideboarding Guide for The EPIC Storm (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2013/53251/cooks-kitchen-a-sideboarding-guide-for-the-epic-storm)

My last article for Jupiter Games.

[Megadeus]

Why the last article?