Columbus Legacy Open -- May 20, 2012 ( TWO WEEKS BEFORE ORIGINS!!!!)

[Smmenen]

Thanks to everyone who attended the March 4 tournament. It was a success despite some schedule conflicts. The Soldiery still has the decklists, and will put them on their website unless someone wants to pick them up and post them here.

WHAT: Sanctioned Legacy Tournament, $20 Entry, Swiss + Cut to Top 8


WHEN: The store opens at 10:30 AM, Registration starts at 11:30 AM. The Tournament will begin at 12:00 Noon sharp.

WHERE: The Soldiery, 4256 N. High Street, Columbus, Ohio 43214


PRIZE STRUCTURE: Cash payout. 80% of entry will be put into the prize pool.

Prize structure is now attendance-dependant!

17+ Players:

1st Place: 40% of Prize Pool
2nd Place: 20% of Prize Pool
3rd Place: 10% of Prize Pool
4th Place: 10% of Prize Pool
5th-8th: 5% of prize pool each


Less than 17 Players:

1st Place: 50% of Prize Pool
2nd Place: 25% of Prize Pool
3rd Place: 12.5% of Prize Pool
4th Place: 12.5% of Prize Pool

ALSO: If 5-8 are awarded prizes, the Soldiery will put money into the prize pool to make sure that they get back at least $20!!

If there are any questions, let me know! Any additional information that is requested will be added in this first post.

(Also, someone be responsible for getting the decklists posted!)

[Mark Sun]

I will already have moved for my job by this time, but I wish whoever goes good luck.

Btw, Steve, I'm sensing most people aren't okay with the 20% cut to the store. Despite having all right attendance the last time, you're going to be losing most of the Dayton guys for the next one.

[nedleeds]

Compare and contrast with free entry $100 weekly in Atlanta. Some store owners just don't get it.

[Fry]

I'm sensing most people aren't okay with the 20% cut to the store. Despite having all right attendance the last time, you're going to be losing most of the Dayton guys for the next one.

I agree, I thought that it would be awesome to go, but in my opinion the way for a store to make money at a tournament is simply to get the players there to buy/sell cards along with snacks and drinks. Perhaps I am wrong on that count...

[Mark Sun]

I agree, I thought that it would be awesome to go, but in my opinion the way for a store to make money at a tournament is simply to get the players there to buy/sell cards along with snacks and drinks. Perhaps I am wrong on that count...

The Empire Games model blows this one out of the water. Also, there are realistic buy prices at Empire Games. The Soldiery buys things for approximately 10% market value, and scales up an additional 25% on their sell prices. Business models are business models, but people should know ahead of time.

[Smmenen]

I agree, I thought that it would be awesome to go, but in my opinion the way for a store to make money at a tournament is simply to get the players there to buy/sell cards along with snacks and drinks. Perhaps I am wrong on that count...

20% of entry fees to:

* host the tournament (i.e. provide space)
* manage the clock
* provide and input match results
* run the DCI Reporter
* use all of that cartridge ink, paper, time, and space

Seems totally reasonable to me.

I railed against the PTQ model, which is rips people off by comparison, with jack squat for prizes beyond the qualification, and got hammered by a bunch of pros.

20% rake to use all of those resources seems super fair compared to most standards out there. Also, the Soldiery pays out CASH. They don't make you get shitty store credit and have to buy the crap in the store's case. Too many stores make you buy their crappy singles.

The point of the tournament isn't to go and buy singles. It's to go and crush face.

[Mark Sun]

20% of entry fees to:

* host the tournament (i.e. provide space)
* manage the clock
* provide and input match results
* run the DCI Reporter
* use all of that cartridge ink, paper, time, and space

This might make sense on paper, but (and I will use the 23-man attendance from the last event as an example) for an event of this size, it's really no different from an FNM. I don't think the store should charge any extra to host the tournament, since they're open anyways during those hours and there's extra space around the store. It's almost like they're double dipping. Managing the clock, inputting results, and printing things out shouldn't cost $92 to do. You're playing an average of 8-9 matches a round factoring in drops.

At an FNM-sized tournament like this, this work would probably accumulate into about 30-40 minutes. That's a pretty sick pay rate. I'm not trying to sound negative, but rather I'm just playing devil's advocate to help point out the type of feedback that I get after these tournaments, and why people really don't want to come back. When it was announced that 5th-8th would be getting $18.40, less than the value of entry, you already lost at least two cars for the next one.

Very quickly compare this to the next Empire Games tournament (where they've been pulling in around 50 or more, without much hassle). You pay $25 to get in. You get a Level 2 Judge. You get to use the space. Any number of players can attend. Prizes are scaled up if more people show up (which Soldiery has never really done). The guaranteed prizes are, in terms of cash (eBay) value:

1st: $400
2nd: $200
3rd-4th: $175
5th-8th: $50

These are the guaranteed prizes. And Carl does buy the cards back if you don't want them, so it's not a cash payout that is distinguishing The Soldiery here. This was the prize payout at The Solidery last time, with $20 entry, 23 people.

1st-4th: $72/ea
5th-8th: $20/ea (syphoning from 1st-4th to make it a full $20/ea from $18/ea)
Store: $92


Whoops. How can other stores pull it off, but The Soldiery can't? We can discuss this privately as well.

[Smmenen]

Stores that actually make no money on entry fee can afford to do so because they make money in other ways, such as selling singles. The Soldiery doesn't have an active card dealer who buys and sells singles or who knows much about magic.

Instead, we are basically paying to have a tournament host, and 20% of entry fees, is frankly quite fair considering it would be FAR more expensive if I were to do the same thing myself. I would have to pay to have a hall or space, buy a printer and replacement ink cartridges, and buy paper.

This is actually quite a deal for just space and to pay someone to run it for you. They actually make ALOT more on Yu-Gi-Yoh, where the rake is something like 50%.

The idea that you are just paying for 30-40 minutes of time is ridiculous. If you have someone man a store front and only 5 people come in during a 8 hour day, you don't just pay them for the 40 minutes they were occupied but for all their time. The same is true of space.

In any case, this is not the best place for this kind of conversation, which if you want to talk about, feel free to give me a call.

Also, what are you talking about the prizes don't scale up? Of course they do. The prizes are a % of the prize pool. That's the very definition of scaling up. More money in, more money out.

[Mark Sun]

I don't have your number anymore Stephen; my phone died a while ago and erased most of my contacts. Feel free to PM me here (or DM me on Twitter, etc).


Stores that actually make no money on entry fee can afford to do so because they make money in other ways, such as selling singles. The Soldiery doesn't have an active card dealer who buys and sells singles or who knows much about magic.

That's because they don't try to. The buy/sell model is: You get fucked, and we make 200% profit on a card, 1% of the time. It's a very laughable model, even for a business rookie like me. The Soldiery needs to get with the times. When I started playing in 2009, we were getting 40 man Meandeck Opens, consistently. In 2010 and on, more stores started opening up with more sound models and better customer service, which makes breaking 20 in 2012 a feat (or breaking 30 for Vintage, which took a Medina Twitter army and a lot of advertising from people like us).

Isn't it time to wake up and take a huge step back? The prize structure will always be shit, because this model has an invisible ceiling. (This addresses your last point of prize structure scaling up) You will hit a cap around 20 each time, maybe a little higher if nothing else is going on. The model has deterred enough people that it's negative EV to travel all the way to Columbus to play in some tournament anymore. You're going to limit your clientele to only the Columbus area +/- 40-50 minutes travel. Empire Games was reeling in people from Pittsburgh and farther this weekend. And they just have a regular old prize system. To match their estimated cash value of prize support, this event would need to actually rake in a higher attendance than they did. Really?


Instead, we are basically paying to have a tournament host, and 20% of entry fees, is frankly quite fair considering it would be FAR more expensive if I were to do the same thing myself. I would have to pay to have a hall or space, buy a printer and replacement ink cartridges, and buy paper.

This is actually quite a deal for just space and to pay someone to run it for you. They actually make ALOT more on Yu-Gi-Yoh, where the rake is something like 50%.

The idea that you are just paying for 30-40 minutes of time is ridiculous. If you have someone man a store front and only 5 people come in during a 8 hour day, you don't just pay them for the 40 minutes they were occupied but for all their time. The same is true of space.

True. If you or I had to rent a hall, it would be a chore to get all the space and setup. Here's the thing, though. What is the purpose of a store? (Especially one that, on average, has like 5-8 people hanging out there at a given time and is never incredibly busy). It's to provide play space. I don't have to pay for play space when I go in there on a random day. Why are we paying for a store's space when that is supposed to be their purpose anyways? It's always perplexed me, that we not only have to pay for entry, but we also have to pay to play the game itself.

It's not a goddamn nightclub or something where space is at a premium and we need a bouncer keeping track to make sure we're not spilling over our limits. I feel like the store is just double dipping here, and this feeling has been reciprocated to me before by people who have come to the store. Look at it the same way as operating something like an FNM; you're telling me that a Legacy tournament the same size is harder? Also, 50% rake in a different game shouldn't dictate what the prize distribution should be at an MTG event. MTG players will have different expectations than Yu-Gi-Oh players, mostly based on events that they've attended before.

[Smmenen]

I don't have your number anymore Stephen; my phone died a while ago and erased most of my contacts. Feel free to PM me here (or DM me on Twitter, etc).

That's because they don't try to. The buy/sell model is: You get fucked, and we make 200% profit on a card, 1% of the time. It's a very laughable model, even for a business rookie like me. The Soldiery needs to get with the times. When I started playing in 2009, we were getting 40 man Meandeck Opens, consistently. In 2010 and on, more stores started opening up with more sound models and better customer service, which makes breaking 20 in 2012 a feat (or breaking 30 for Vintage, which took a Medina Twitter army and a lot of advertising from people like us).



There is no relevant difference between 2009 and 2012 in terms of the standard of store payouts.

The Soldiery isn't a rookie, it's a totally different business model. They aren't grinding trades.

There are two basic ways to make a profit: 1) sell lots and lots of products, or 2) sell fewer products and higher prices.

The Soldiery doesn't make money by volume selling. They also aren't primarily a Magic store. They make money by selling things at a premium that people come in and want. They've been doing that since the early 1990s. There business model isn't going to change.

The fact of the matter is that the Soldiery has been MORE than willing to offer its space, paper, ink, and services to host tournament after tournament for Legacy and Vintage for years now when no other store in Columbus was willing until more recently.

Asking the Soldiery to get into the business of volume selling so they can use that to subsidize their tournaments is ridiculous and unfair. The Soldiery has been incredibly flexible and generous with thier time and space.

I do not think that 20% of entry fee to provide space is unreasonable. In fact, it's a tremendous service.

Again, if I had to do all of that work I would spend far more than 20% of the entry fees just renting a hall alone.





Isn't it time to wake up and take a huge step back? The prize structure will always be shit, because this model has an invisible ceiling. (This addresses your last point of prize structure scaling up) You will hit a cap around 20 each time, maybe a little higher if nothing else is going on. The model has deterred enough people that it's negative EV to travel all the way to Columbus to play in some tournament anymore. You're going to limit your clientele to only the Columbus area +/- 40-50 minutes travel. Empire Games was reeling in people from Pittsburgh and farther this weekend. And they just have a regular old prize system.



Giving 80% of Entry fees back in prizes and using 20% to cover costs is, in my long experience in magic, eminently fair. It's a helluva lot better than what PTQ organizers ask for. Just because some stores who run tournaments more regularly can offer better deals does not make 80% of entry into CASH PRIZES "shit." That's absurd hyperbole.




True. If you or I had to rent a hall, it would be a chore to get all the space and setup. Here's the thing, though. What is the purpose of a store? (Especially one that, on average, has like 5-8 people hanging out there at a given time and is never incredibly busy). It's to provide play space. I don't have to pay for play space when I go in there on a random day. Why are we paying for a store's space when that is supposed to be their purpose anyways? It's always perplexed me, that we not only have to pay for entry, but we also have to pay to play the game itself.

That's bullshit. The purpose of a store is to sell stuff, NOT to provide play space. A store has no obligation to provide play space. Kmart doesn't.




It's not a goddamn nightclub or something where space is at a premium and we need a bouncer keeping track to make sure we're not spilling over our limits.

It's not about space being at a premium. It's the reality that space is NOT FREE.

Let me say it again: Space is NOT FREE.

Tables, chairs, and an enclosed space is not free. I have OFTEN thought about moving the Vintage meandeck opens to other locations, but every single option I've explored until recently was more expensive and less flexible.

It's ridiculous to expect a store to host a tournament for free. Tournament organizers have overhead and opportunity costs.

I believe 20% of entry fees to provide all of those services and space is totally reasonable under most business models. Maybe some stores that focus more on selling cards can use those profits to subsidize their tournaments, but it's ridiculous to expect every store to do that. It's just flat unreasonable and unfair.

[wcm8]

I don't think the 80/20 payout is unreasonable. However, I agree with Mark's point that there is very little incentive for players not living in the city to travel to the site if the payout/turnout isn't that big.

I don't think anyone should base their decision on whether or not to go to a tournament based solely on the prize payout, but if top 8 isn't at least recouping their entry fee in product, that's pretty bad. Bigger prize payout -> bigger turnout.

I enjoy playing Magic first and foremost, but I am surely not going to travel 2-3 hours to make it to a tournament that's only going to be expecting 20~ people. That's only 5 rounds of Swiss. I'd rather avoid the hassle, travel time/expenses and just playtest some games with my local playgroup or on Cockatrice. I'm sure other people feel the same, especially with gas pushing $4/gallon.

[Fade]

I enjoy playing Magic first and foremost, but I am surely not going to travel 2-3 hours to make it to a tournament that's only going to be expecting 20~ people. That's only 5 rounds of Swiss. I'd rather avoid the hassle, travel time/expenses and just playtest some games with my local playgroup or on Cockatrice. I'm sure other people feel the same, especially with gas pushing $4/gallon.

Agreed. A group of us from Cinci went to one of these before the GP and after hearing that 8th thru 5th was supposed to get $17 (Entry was $20) I was flabbergasted. They ended up rounding it up to $20, but I think they took it out of the prize of 4th thru 1st who decided to split.

It was a fun day of Magic but realistically our group could've just stayed in Cinci and played at a different tournament (saving gas money and the time it took to get there) that was announced after we had made plans to go to The Soldiery.

[Mark Sun]

I don't think the 80/20 payout is unreasonable. However, I agree with Mark's point that there is very little incentive for players not living in the city to travel to the site if the payout/turnout isn't that big.

I don't think anyone should base their decision on whether or not to go to a tournament based solely on the prize payout, but if top 8 isn't at least recouping their entry fee in product, that's pretty bad. Bigger prize payout -> bigger turnout.

I enjoy playing Magic first and foremost, but I am surely not going to travel 2-3 hours to make it to a tournament that's only going to be expecting 20~ people. That's only 5 rounds of Swiss. I'd rather avoid the hassle, travel time/expenses and just playtest some games with my local playgroup or on Cockatrice. I'm sure other people feel the same, especially with gas pushing $4/gallon.

Basically where I was getting at.

My argument also hinged on the flexibility of free space for customers (because you own the building, etc); Stephen's argument precludes the possibility of free play space. That is one of the main points that I took away, anyhow.

I guess to put things in perspective, getting $17 for playing 5 rounds of Swiss when you drove 2-3 hours and paid $20 isn't attractive. That feedback is going to spill over and prevent the next event from reaching the numbers you need to attract the players. Just saying. I'm not longer in the Columbus area, so there's really not much more I can do locally to help the cause.

[Smmenen]

Agreed. A group of us from Cinci went to one of these before the GP and after hearing that 8th thru 5th was supposed to get $17 (Entry was $20) I was flabbergasted. They ended up rounding it up to $20, but I think they took it out of the prize of 4th thru 1st who decided to split.

It was a fun day of Magic but realistically our group could've just stayed in Cinci and played at a different tournament (saving gas money and the time it took to get there) that was announced after we had made plans to go to The Soldiery.

The prize structure clearly says that 5-8th place gets 5% of the prize pool. Why would any one be shocked if that's less than the entry fee?

The alternative, which the store owner has often asked for, is NOT to give our prizes to 5-8th, and just to top load all of the prizes to the top 4.

Would you rather get $17.50 for 8th place, or nothing?

I don't get how anyone could be flabberghasted if they can do math...


I guess to put things in perspective, getting $17 for playing 5 rounds of Swiss when you drove 2-3 hours and paid $20 isn't attractive.

Then win the tournament, and you won't get $17.

Also, part of the point of coming to these tournaments has always been stiffer competition than local tournaments, since people traditionally came from all over Ohio...

[DrHealex]

That's bullshit. The purpose of a store is to sell stuff, NOT to provide play space. A store has no obligation to provide play space. Kmart doesn't.
I think your problem is that you are confusing a retail store with a game store when in reality they are two very different things.


It's not about space being at a premium. It's the reality that space is NOT FREE.
Let me say it again: Space is NOT FREE.
The space is already being paid for through patronage. if all we were paying a premium for was merchandise we would just buy it online, and cheaper. Isn't that often one of the biggest reasons for the whole "support your brick and mortar stores" argument?


All that being said. 80% is prolly not that unreasonable. If the prize was cards at 100% vaule you would no doubt get less than 80% cash for it. And from the sounds of it, it could be even worse if they had it 100% of the prize pool in store credit.

I will also agree that with the prize structure as it is now will result in 20~30 man tournaments compose of locals and maybe people as far as an hour out.

[wcm8]

Then win the tournament, and you won't get $17.

Also, part of the point of coming to these tournaments has always been stiffer competition than local tournaments, since people traditionally came from all over Ohio...

The EV/prize pool isn't the only incentive for people to travel to tournaments, but not even breaking even with a top 8 finish is going to be an obvious deterrent for anyone who doesn't live within 30 minutes of the site.

Also, I disagree with the notion that people have to travel to Ohio to face stiffer competition. I honestly feel like Pittsburgh has a much tougher scene than the Ohio tournaments I've been to. We have the whole 'CMU crowd', including players like Rich Shay (world-class Vintage player, and damn good at Legacy as well), Steve Rubin (undefeated day 1 at GP Indianapolis, consistent top-placing performer in Legacy tournaments), Zac McAdoo (defeats "pros" such as Brad Nelson like they's nothing ;D), Dr. Jon Lekse (relatively obscure due to having a real life/job, but a fantastic player all around), etc.

I think it'd be cool if we could organize some sort of team tournament at a midway point where we could have the East Coast area cities face off and decide who really has the strongest collection of players -- in Vintage and Legacy, the only formats that matter ;) A true Grudge Match.

[Mark Sun]

The EV/prize pool isn't the only incentive for people to travel to tournaments, but not even breaking even with a top 8 finish is going to be an obvious deterrent for anyone who doesn't live within 30 minutes of the site.

Quoted for truth.

Laughed a bit at the $17 or nothing comment, I suppose if those are the two ultimatums that the store is setting forth, everyone wins by just not attending and letting them fire an 8-man, right? Because that's happened before.

Also, no one is pulling out a fucking calculator at these events and counting how many walk through the door. Or at least, I didn't see anyone with a calculator at the last event. The reason people are so shocked at the math for 5-8th, is because the prize pool doesn't get announced until the tournament begins, since it "scales up."

You can't actively expect people to come into the store and just "know" what the prize support is when the numbers are variable. If people could just show up in the morning and ask "Hey, what's 5% of the prize pool today? What do you project?" I suppose that would help their decision of staying or leaving the venue. Pointing the finger at the ones who were shocked by the prize structure (Hint: every one who wasn't a regular to these things who Top 8'ed) because they "can't do math" is incredibly asinine.

Here are two important numbers, though, to help those out that are thinking of attending:

25: Number of people in attendance in order for Top 8 to be guaranteed money back.
<25: Number of people the last one got. This expression also includes the average attendance from the last year of Meandeck Opens, this tournament's predecessor.

Bonus figure: 35: Number of people in attendance in order for 5th-8th to break even on their trip, assuming they split gas with two others and came, say, Cincinnati.

[DrHealex]

The alternative, which the store owner has often asked for, is NOT to give our prizes to 5-8th, and just to top load all of the prizes to the top 4. Would you rather get $17.50 for 8th place, or nothing?
I think the hard truth of the matter is that you don't quite have the attendence to go down past top4.

If you are getting 20~30 people and you are giving prize to 30%~40% you are spreading yourself to thin and devaluing success (ie. Competition)

[Fade]

Also, part of the point of coming to these tournaments has always been stiffer competition than local tournaments, since people traditionally came from all over Ohio...

I convinced 7 people from Cinci to come play in this tournament rather than one that was literally 30 minutes from my house. Out of the 3 people in my car, 2 of us made top 8, so we definitely were coming to win. If part of the point is to have "stiffer competition" and have people from all over Ohio coming to these tournaments then why are you not offering incentive for these people to come?

The prize payout was not what any of us expected, maybe the use of flabbergasted was wrong but we were definitely disappointed. And seeing that this was the first time I had ever been to The Soldiery I wasn't sure on how the prize structure was. Second, the singles in your store were not competitively priced (No, I don't expect you to give your cards away for free but maybe have a slight sale or something for the people who don't win to look forward to). Not to be rude, but why would we make the trip up there again when we could have an event in Cinci with the same amount of people, if not more show up, with better prize payouts and pricing on singles?

Just some food for thought.

[firstshot]

The rake is just to steep to make people want to come. I remember when I traveled to these monthly back in 2010 or 2011. The attendance was better but there were still many issues.

Originally the tournament started at 12 or 1 which is way too late for people who wanted to have dinner or get home at a reasonable hour. Especially considering the event is run on Sunday.

Even after that was fixed the tournament structure was being messed with. They wanted to run a "free side event" which took money from the main pool which already had a 20% rake. During this period the tournaments were run worse then normal imo b/c they were trying to force people to sign up for them and would delay the main event while trying to get the 8th or 16th person for the side event that was forced on the players.

After that there was the mistake of trying to run a tournament with proxies. This is when the meandeck open imo really died off. Players were not willing to attend a tournament where proxies were in play along with a steep rake.
Before these there were consistent cards from Akron and Cincinnati that would attend these events.

Another big issue for me was I never felt welcomed by the store. The store owner never seemed to do anything for the players. As long as we didn't ask many questions or cause problems we were okay to be there but still never welcomed. Don't even mention the prices of Singles.

I'm not sure if there is a solution for the solidery to keep running MTG events. If the owner was willing to reconsider his rake or lower the price of singles or run an event where first got 4xFOW/Tarmogoyf/Dual land and there were other specfic prizes people might come. At this point I think Empire Games is going to be the place to play legacy in Ohio.

[Smmenen]

This event has been cancelled. Good job.

[Zerberro]

how do you do?

[DrHealex]

... and they say that the minority doesn't hold the power!