[Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

[aCatNamedBootsy]

I haven't really been disappointed with them so far. I like the acceleration they offer plus they can serve as Forgemaster fodder when they are spent or unneeded.

Out of curiosity, what are everyone's thoughts on Contagion Engine? I've been thinking about it a little bit lately and it seems like it could be a solid sideboard card as a one-of against Elves, UR Delver, and Death & Taxes. It might be a bit cute and narrow given that All is Dust and soon Ugin serve as one-sided board wipes already.

[bruizar]

I haven't really been disappointed with them so far. I like the acceleration they offer plus they can serve as Forgemaster fodder when they are spent or unneeded.

Out of curiosity, what are everyone's thoughts on Contagion Engine? I've been thinking about it a little bit lately and it seems like it could be a solid sideboard card as a one-of against Elves, UR Delver, and Death & Taxes. It might be a bit cute and narrow given that All is Dust and soon Ugin serve as one-sided board wipes already.

I have tournament experience with Contagion Engine. I really like the card, but I think all in all Serrated Arrows might be the better one of the two. However, I played with 3 engines and 2 arrows in the same list, given the fact that they work so well together.

[honz]

Damn I wish Ugin wasn't 8 mana. Or was an artifact. I also wish they would stop making all the good colorless cards be non-artifacts...

On the bright side, Ugin clearly beats out karn/all is dust/spine of ish sah. Not that that's saying much. In post builds, Ugin is most likely better than sundering titan as well (although you want to keep 1 titan for a kuldotha target). I think myr battlesphere doesn't belong in post lists, but Ugin is also better than the sphere. You definitely want to run 3 or 4.

In red lists, 8 mana is verging on too much. It hurts to say it, but I don't think I would even put ugin into a red build. Maybe a random 1-of, but that's a little janky.


Out of curiosity, what are everyone's thoughts on Contagion Engine? I've been thinking about it a little bit lately and it seems like it could be a solid sideboard card as a one-of against Elves, UR Delver, and Death & Taxes. It might be a bit cute and narrow given that All is Dust and soon Ugin serve as one-sided board wipes already.

It was a very solid SB card. Now Ugin is clearly better, however you might still want one as a kuldotha target.


After seeing Ugin yesterday I went ahead and proxied up a coupled of copies for MUD dropping my 4th copy of each Chalice and Trinisphere

Never run less than 4 chalice. Trust me. Going down to 3 trinispheres is fine though.


Btw how are the Grim Monolith during testing? Currently i feel it is being weak in the cloudpost manabase.

They enable busted plays, specifcally turn 1 trinisphere / turn 2 kuldotha. Certainly, they feel weak when you topdeck one on turn 5, but if you start cutting them you make your slow deck even slower in a meta full of young pyro/storm/elves. Classic choice between explosiveness and consistency that anybody playing a ramp deck makes. Personally, I think it is one of the defining cards of this archetype for a reason, and as good as the post mana base may seem in theory, it rarely reaches its full potential. I also think 4 is too many, but 3 is perfect.


I think all in all Serrated Arrows might be better [than contagion engine]

No. Just no.

[bruizar]

No. Just no.

Based on what? If your argument is that Contagion Engine is your Kuldotha Forgemaster target, I'd say you should look for a better target. Serrated Arrows is much better costed and takes out 3 guys over turns (Dryad Arbor, Delver, Pyromancer, etc, etc). Contagion Engine is a totally different type of card. Its effect is stronger than serrated arrows but completely subpar as a tinker target. If you can get up to 6 mana (or 5+summoning sickness) against elves, they have already lost to themselves. I'd love to know how you intend to interact with a turn 2 elves combo player with your build.

[dcosiem]

In this meta Myr Battlesphere is not needed. Just run Wurmcoil Engine. He'll shore up any distance of life that you have from your opponent. I was on this decision as well whether or not to have Myr Battlesphere in my 75 list.

This deck is tight for me to play Ugin. I play 4 Lightning Greaves, and I find it super essential to have because it allows for faster combo consistency and it acts as a mother of runes for your creatures. If you ever play death and taxes, you know what i mean.

To cut a Trinisphere in this meta is highly unadvisable because it lessens consistency to top deck an early trinisphere. To unleash trinisphere on turn 1, will give a lot of decks so much trouble if we haven't all experienced that. I have never not trolled so many magic players with that move.

[Mr. Froggy]

I agree about not cutting 3Sphere, way too strong in the current meta.

[dcosiem]

What do you guys think of Staff of Domination being cut for something that makes the deck more consistent? I really hate drawing it in a game without Metalworker. Sometimes it's useless if I don't have more than 5 mana to draw cards. Sometimes it can be used to stop creatures from attacking, but this happens only rarely. I want to cut it for something else. Any suggestions or do you guys not advise to cut it?

[Bobmans]

What do you guys think of Staff of Domination being cut for something that makes the deck more consistent? I really hate drawing it in a game without Metalworker. Sometimes it's useless if I don't have more than 5 mana to draw cards. Sometimes it can be used to stop creatures from attacking, but this happens only rarely. I want to cut it for something else. Any suggestions or do you guys not advise to cut it?
Personally i do like the staff. Id rather run a Spine of Ish Sah the get me out of situations where Staff is usually an out to. It just requires so much conditions to win the game. Mostly in early game your trading resource and after that i want to draw cards that are good on their own. I never won a game with it in tournaments anyway.

[dcosiem]

Personally i do like the staff. Id rather run a Spine of Ish Sah the get me out of situations where Staff is usually an out to. It just requires so much conditions to win the game. Mostly in early game your trading resource and after that i want to draw cards that are good on their own. I never won a game with it in tournaments anyway.

I've won with it at tournaments, but right now, my deck plays so smooth that I really don't need it. It's so consistent in what it does that I really am not worry about the small percentages of decks that don't have a normal way of winning through aggro. I may want to play Platinum Angel in the main but it's tough to cut out Platinum Emperion. He's clutch a lot of the time when he is on the field.

I literally love this deck. It's my favorite deck. One day, I'll have all of this shit foiled out somehow.

[Mr. Froggy]

Went 4-0 with MUD today using the same list as always.

Round 1: 2-0 vs Bant
Round 2: 2-1 vs Enchantress
Round 3: 2-0 vs Jeskai Combo
Round 4: 2-1 vs Dragon Stompy

MVP was SB All is Dust (man I love that card)

[Michael Keller]

Joining the dark side.

[Zirath]

Joining the dark side.

Oh are you? I'm thinking of returning to the electronic age.

[honz]

Based on what? ... Serrated Arrows is much better costed and takes out 3 guys over turns (Dryad Arbor, Delver, Pyromancer, etc, etc). Contagion Engine is a totally different type of card. Its effect is stronger than serrated arrows but completely subpar as a tinker target. If you can get up to 6 mana (or 5+summoning sickness) against elves, they have already lost to themselves. I'd love to know how you intend to interact with a turn 2 elves combo player with your build.

If forked bolt had a big brother that cost 4 mana and divvied up 3 damage instead, that would be a terrible card. Serrated arrows does that, except it takes 3 turns to do it. Even if forked bolt was colorless and didn't clash with chalice, MUD wouldn't run that either. This is not a control deck, nor a value deck looking to trade 1 for 1 or 2 for 1.

In the matchups where contagion engine gets boarded in (mostly elves / young pyro / death & taxes), it is a 1 sided wrath of god for 6 mana (or for sac 3 artifacts). Admittedly, not amazing, but serves more as a panic button than anything else. Generally you will grab blightsteel with kuldotha, but when facing down lethal damage (or swords to plowshares), contagion engine can steal some games you may not otherwise win.

Lastly, against an elves deck looking to combo turn 2, serrated arrows and contagion engine are both terrible. If you don't know how my deck interacts with elves, then you clearly don't understand how MUD works, and I direct you to look at the following cards, all capable of being cast on turn 1 or 2: chalice of the void at 1, trinisphere, lodestone golem, torpor orb (against visionary and craterhoof), phyrexian revoker, pyroclasm and metalworker -> kuldotha/emperion/contagion/staff/trinisphere/chalice/lodestone...etc. Most of these will stall the game long enough to get a kuldotha activation for blightsteel to win, or contagion engine to wipe his board.


What do you guys think of Staff of Domination being cut for something that makes the deck more consistent? I really hate drawing it in a game without Metalworker. Sometimes it's useless if I don't have more than 5 mana to draw cards. Sometimes it can be used to stop creatures from attacking, but this happens only rarely. I want to cut it for something else. Any suggestions or do you guys not advise to cut it?

I don't run any removal/permission in the maindeck, so I want an answer for a random peacekeeper or moat or whatever other insanity might happen. Basically that means spine of ish sah or staff of domination. While the staff isn't a removal card, gain 90000 life, and wait until your opponent decks himself (on the back of drawing/discarding blightsteel forever) is almost unbeatable. I find the staff to be much less clunky than the spine, and has all the extra flexibility/random wins.

Also, like any card, it has good/bad matchups. Don't be afraid to board it out where you see fit. I like to keep it in against combo decks since using kuldotha to grab the missing half of the worker/staff combo can win a turn faster than grabbing blightsteel, or you can randomly draw both worker and staff. I keep it against miracles too, mostly for the draw ability. I tend to board it out against most delver/young pyro/aggro decks where I don't expect metalworker to stick on the board, and where staff is bad by itself. I think it has some use against stoneforge mystic decks, to tap down their equipment, but I usually have SB cards I want more than the staff.

[dcosiem]

If forked bolt had a big brother that cost 4 mana and divvied up 3 damage instead, that would be a terrible card. Serrated arrows does that, except it takes 3 turns to do it. Even if forked bolt was colorless and didn't clash with chalice, MUD wouldn't run that either. This is not a control deck, nor a value deck looking to trade 1 for 1 or 2 for 1.

In the matchups where contagion engine gets boarded in (mostly elves / young pyro / death & taxes), it is a 1 sided wrath of god for 6 mana (or for sac 3 artifacts). Admittedly, not amazing, but serves more as a panic button than anything else. Generally you will grab blightsteel with kuldotha, but when facing down lethal damage (or swords to plowshares), contagion engine can steal some games you may not otherwise win.

Lastly, against an elves deck looking to combo turn 2, serrated arrows and contagion engine are both terrible. If you don't know how my deck interacts with elves, then you clearly don't understand how MUD works, and I direct you to look at the following cards, all capable of being cast on turn 1 or 2: chalice of the void at 1, trinisphere, lodestone golem, torpor orb (against visionary and craterhoof), phyrexian revoker, pyroclasm and metalworker -> kuldotha/emperion/contagion/staff/trinisphere/chalice/lodestone...etc. Most of these will stall the game long enough to get a kuldotha activation for blightsteel to win, or contagion engine to wipe his board.



I don't run any removal/permission in the maindeck, so I want an answer for a random peacekeeper or moat or whatever other insanity might happen. Basically that means spine of ish sah or staff of domination. While the staff isn't a removal card, gain 90000 life, and wait until your opponent decks himself (on the back of drawing/discarding blightsteel forever) is almost unbeatable. I find the staff to be much less clunky than the spine, and has all the extra flexibility/random wins.

Also, like any card, it has good/bad matchups. Don't be afraid to board it out where you see fit. I like to keep it in against combo decks since using kuldotha to grab the missing half of the worker/staff combo can win a turn faster than grabbing blightsteel, or you can randomly draw both worker and staff. I keep it against miracles too, mostly for the draw ability. I tend to board it out against most delver/young pyro/aggro decks where I don't expect metalworker to stick on the board, and where staff is bad by itself. I think it has some use against stoneforge mystic decks, to tap down their equipment, but I usually have SB cards I want more than the staff.

Yea for now, I'm sticking with it in my main because it sometimes win games out of the sky, but I've taken Spine out and moved it to the board. I may put it back in. I might have to take out a Wurmcoil Engine for it.

[Zirath]

Greetings all. I come back from making day 2 of the SCG with my results. First my list:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78494

As you can see, I didn't end up doing that well on day 2. My major differences from most lists is that I cut staves completely in exchange with Skull. I have never felt that staves did much honestly and I prefer being face. Batterskull is also a monstrous card.

As for my games, I lost to nutty hands from Lands and Dredge day 1 and lost to Miracles (my fault 100%; forgot that Lightning Greaves = win), UWR Delver (6 Wastes over 2 games is rough), RUG (Daryl, who won the event; game 3 was characterized with him having all creatures and me having all Ancient Tombs), UR Delver (he had a super strong hand games 2 and 3 involving Force my Chalice + multiple Young Pyromancers so there wasn't much for me to do).

Going forward, I would make the following changes:

-2 Trinisphere, +2 Don't know yet
-1 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 Don't know about this one either

Trinisphere was underwhelming. I got some free wins from it here and there but overall it wasn't that impressive. I want some but not the full 4. I have always felt this way and I think this is the right choice for this deck since having multiple Spheres sometimes sucks a lot.

While I love Revoker, I didn't have that many match ups where it was insane and warranted a 4. 3 is plenty. I would like a card that addresses the Delver deck better since I don't feel the best in it. It's not a bad match up but blind Delver flips are really good against us. I was also overwhelmed by Young Pyromancer. A banning of Treasure Cruise would probably solve this since the UR deck would reduce in number so I am going to wait until an announcement to decide what to do.

Also I wasn't the only player rocking Uba Mask.

[potatodavid]

Ran a Stock Cloudpost List Yesterday at a local place running an SCG tournament. Managed to go 2-3 Drop. But had a blast regardless.

Round 1. Burn with way more artifact hate than I've ever seen. (he explained to me after that he expected to see a TON of MUD at this tournament)
Game 1 I get a bunch of Grim Monoliths in a Row and his Turn 1 goblin guide is good enough to get him there.
Game 2. I go Tomb, Chalice for one. He smash to smithereens it. I go turn 2 Chalice for 1. Which he again Smash To Smithereens. I play a monolith into welder. A 3rd FUCKING SMASH TO SMITHEREENS! 2 rift bolts later, I lost to an easy match up.
0-1.
Round 2. Hex Depths. ( I found out later this guy was 3 cards short of 60 but... whatever that's magic)
Game 1, he plays urborg, depths into hexmage for a turn 3 Marit Lage.
Game 2, I play a cloudpost followed by glimmerpost, gain 2 life, He again gets a turn 2 Marit Lage, He swings, I live (forgot I gained 2 life) I cast Platinum angel, he concedes.
Game 3, Much like game 2 only I waste his dark depths, which he crop rotates for another one, 2 swings of marit lage and I'm dead.
0-2.
Round 3. Burn
Game 1. Chalice for one, followed by a turn 3 blightsteel. He scoops.
Game 2. he opts to be on the draw... Turn 1 Chalice, into a turn 4 blightsteel he scoops.
1-2
Round 4. UR Delver.
Game 1. He gets a swiftspear, but i trinisphere followed by forgemaster. he gets a young pyro down but I wurmcoil to stabilize and that's the game.
Game 2. Turn 1 chalice, Smash to smithereens. I follow up with Metalworker which drops sundering titan. I forgemaster a sundering titan into a sundering titan. To clear his board (blightsteel in hand which is why I don't forgmaster it instead) He scoops.
2-2
Round 5. Lands
Round 1. I get wasteland locked, he assembles grove combo. I scoops.
Round 2. I manage to get Platinum Angel Out turn 2, he wasteland locks me out, casts tabernacle. No lands to pay for the angel. He drops Marit Lage. I shake his hand.
2-3

Ran into some bad match ups, but had fun.

[Mockingbird]

Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is now available on Cockatrice.

I just pulled off it's ultimate in MUD-Post... it's great.

[sun tzu]

Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is now available on Cockatrice.

I just pulled off it's ultimate in MUD-Post... it's great.
share your list please :D

[Bobmans]

Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is now available on Cockatrice.

I just pulled off it's ultimate in MUD-Post... it's great.
As expected, but how often and how fast where you able to put him on the board?

[Michael Keller]

Greetings all. I come back from making day 2 of the SCG with my results. First my list:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78494

As you can see, I didn't end up doing that well on day 2. My major differences from most lists is that I cut staves completely in exchange with Skull. I have never felt that staves did much honestly and I prefer being face. Batterskull is also a monstrous card.

As for my games, I lost to nutty hands from Lands and Dredge day 1 and lost to Miracles (my fault 100%; forgot that Lightning Greaves = win), UWR Delver (6 Wastes over 2 games is rough), RUG (Daryl, who won the event; game 3 was characterized with him having all creatures and me having all Ancient Tombs), UR Delver (he had a super strong hand games 2 and 3 involving Force my Chalice + multiple Young Pyromancers so there wasn't much for me to do).

Going forward, I would make the following changes:

-2 Trinisphere, +2 Don't know yet
-1 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 Don't know about this one either

Trinisphere was underwhelming. I got some free wins from it here and there but overall it wasn't that impressive. I want some but not the full 4. I have always felt this way and I think this is the right choice for this deck since having multiple Spheres sometimes sucks a lot.

While I love Revoker, I didn't have that many match ups where it was insane and warranted a 4. 3 is plenty. I would like a card that addresses the Delver deck better since I don't feel the best in it. It's not a bad match up but blind Delver flips are really good against us. I was also overwhelmed by Young Pyromancer. A banning of Treasure Cruise would probably solve this since the UR deck would reduce in number so I am going to wait until an announcement to decide what to do.

Also I wasn't the only player rocking Uba Mask.

I am running Darksteel Citadel in my build. I feel the card's benefits are huge in regards to sequencing plays, generating mana with Metalworker, sacrifice for Forgemaster and avoiding hands/strategies predicated on Wasteland. I think its utility is underestimated, which is why I would consider running a set.

I also feel as though Wasteland in Post builds is incorrect. The versions that run Post tend to want to ramp mana faster into the big play, and Wasteland feels at times underwhelming and like a double-Time Walk for opponents on the play dropping a turn-one Delver. Chalice and 3Sphere should be plenty in that regard.

Lodestone Golem is a card I also am not liking in MUD Post decks. Lightning Bolt is the most prevalent form of removal right now, and generating four mana and possibly two damage to drop a creature that dies to cheap spot removal - especially on the draw - isn't all that great. Unless you can sequence a Chalice before dropping it, it's actually kind of bad. It's a beater, but a creature with a butt of four or more makes me happier in this archetype to nullify burn against our creatures.

Metalworker eats it too, but the effect it provides is far more game-ending than that of a Golem. You tap a Worker, and that's usually game.

[potatodavid]

Lodestone Golem is a card I also am not liking in MUD Post decks. Lightning Bolt is the most prevalent form of removal right now, and generating four mana and possibly two damage to drop a creature that dies to cheap spot removal - especially on the draw - isn't all that great. Unless you can sequence a Chalice before dropping it, it's actually kind of bad. It's a beater, but a creature with a butt of four or more makes me happier in this archetype to nullify burn against our creatures.



I run the Golem in my Post builds and, most people sandbag their bolts for your metalworker. Even if it does eat a bolt, it's way better that it takes a dive than our metalworkers.

[Michael Keller]

I run the Golem in my Post builds and, most people sandbag their bolts for your metalworker. Even if it does eat a bolt, it's way better that it takes a dive than our metalworkers.

I don't know, I guess I just feel cheated when I invest in a creature that costs four mana and dies to something cheap like Bolt. I can Metalworker eating it, but it's the most powerful card in the deck if left untouched. Lodestone Golem, while still good, seems meh.

[dcosiem]

Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is now available on Cockatrice.

I just pulled off it's ultimate in MUD-Post... it's great.

I still like Karn though because he can stop Null rod in which the Ugin can't. In terms of -x ability on ugin, I can still rely on All is Dust. But, the bolt thing is super nice. I can only have Razormane Masticore to substitute but he's not nearly as good.

[Bobmans]

I don't know, I guess I just feel cheated when I invest in a creature that costs four mana and dies to something cheap like Bolt. I can Metalworker eating it, but it's the most powerful card in the deck if left untouched. Lodestone Golem, while still good, seems meh.
I had trouble beating UWR Delver/pyro/blade decks anyhow. Lodestone Golem shines in other matchup's like Storm or Miracles. It is amazing to see a Miracles player struggle once you resolve a Chalice @ 1 and drop a Golem. Even on it's own it can sometimes steal games. But the good news is they come in multiples and they carry Lightning Greaves like a champ.

[Zirath]

I am running Darksteel Citadel in my build. I feel the card's benefits are huge in regards to sequencing plays, generating mana with Metalworker, sacrifice for Forgemaster and avoiding hands/strategies predicated on Wasteland. I think its utility is underestimated, which is why I would consider running a set.

I also feel as though Wasteland in Post builds is incorrect. The versions that run Post tend to want to ramp mana faster into the big play, and Wasteland feels at times underwhelming and like a double-Time Walk for opponents on the play dropping a turn-one Delver. Chalice and 3Sphere should be plenty in that regard.

Lodestone Golem is a card I also am not liking in MUD Post decks. Lightning Bolt is the most prevalent form of removal right now, and generating four mana and possibly two damage to drop a creature that dies to cheap spot removal - especially on the draw - isn't all that great. Unless you can sequence a Chalice before dropping it, it's actually kind of bad. It's a beater, but a creature with a butt of four or more makes me happier in this archetype to nullify burn against our creatures.

Metalworker eats it too, but the effect it provides is far more game-ending than that of a Golem. You tap a Worker, and that's usually game.

The 2 Wastelands were fine. I definitely won a number of games due to wasting out an opponent. The main difference is you just don't aggressively waste your opponent. 2 was correct for me. It is possible 0 is correct but I wasn't unhappy with Wastes.

I actually didn't face Delver much (3 times total) so that issue didn't come up. Golem was definitely very good for me. I think Golem is necessary for a number of combo decks and mid range decks. I have always found Golem to be a big deal against DnT, Jund/Shardless and Miracles, even so this weekend.

[Mr. Froggy]

I love my Golems, maybe it has to do with the meta at my LGS though.

[dcosiem]

Ok after testing Ugin so far in my deck on Cockatrice. I also agree he's totally nuts in this deck. The ultimate straight up wins games. Here's my list.

4 Grim Monolith
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Staff of Nin
4 Wasteland
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Platinum Angel
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Steel Hellkite
SB: 1 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Witchbane Orb
SB: 1 Bottled Cloister
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Silent Arbiter
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Razormane Masticore
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 1 Defense Grid

[Bobmans]

Ok after testing Ugin so far in my deck on Cockatrice. I also agree he's totally nuts in this deck. The ultimate straight up wins games.

How often and how fast where you able to put him on the board?
How did the other ability's perform?
Against what did you test it?

[dcosiem]

How often and how fast where you able to put him on the board?
How did the other ability's perform?
Against what did you test it?

Out of 8 games I guess, I saw him twice or three times. I was able to put him out the earliest on turn 3, but that was against DnT without much hate. The other games I believe I got him out way late in the match against Miracles. The plus 1 ability was good. It speeds up the game. The -x helps remove annoying aggro creatures and other permanents. Definitely, pick up at least 2. Don't play 1 cause you'll never draw him. He definitely gives the extra edge to this deck. I mean this deck already has a huge edge due to his mana base and pool of spells. But, I guess Wizards of the Coast just needs to make things more crazier I guess. LOL.

The ultimate pulled me from behind against Miracles, it was so nice. I ultied Ugin, and he responded created 5 angels. I was able to put like Blightsteel, Spine, Staff of Dom, and other lands out. The draw 7 didn't hit much, but I was at 2 life and gain 7. I was able to swing with blightsteel on that turn to kill an angel because I had greeves out. Spine took out another. And then i had so much mana out from the ulti, I was able to tap the 2 angels from attacking.

Against Dnt, I resolved him and manage to -3 him immediately and killed like Thalia, and Flickerwisp and basically reset game. He's awesome.

[nerv2004]

My issue with Ugin is its directly competing with sundering titan. do we want to attack there land or their permanents.

[BTY]

My issue with Ugin is its directly competing with sundering titan. do we want to attack there land or their permanents.

I think we want both, but I'm not sure. Titan always has the advantage of being an artifact so you can forgemaster for it, though in a direct competition on land vs. other permanents I think destroying other permanents is much more significant, it isn't the lands that kill us, and if we can destroy all the permanents then what they are casting isn't all that relevant. Ugin also has the advantage of providing a reasonable clock while being able to just say no to anything the opponent is playing. It is great against Jace, most creatures and equipment, where as titan is a quick clock, has pseudo protection from removal but can get chumped for days and doesn't solve one of the big problems with the deck of just getting too far behind, which has been a huge issue for me when playing MUD.

[potatodavid]

My issue with Ugin is its directly competing with sundering titan. do we want to attack there land or their permanents.

I ran a 3 titan list at my most recent legacy outing. Ugin is absolutely going to replace one of them because we want both. Especially after as this meta shifts post TC ban.

[dcosiem]

I think we want both, but I'm not sure. Titan always has the advantage of being an artifact so you can forgemaster for it, though in a direct competition on land vs. other permanents I think destroying other permanents is much more significant, it isn't the lands that kill us, and if we can destroy all the permanents then what they are casting isn't all that relevant. Ugin also has the advantage of providing a reasonable clock while being able to just say no to anything the opponent is playing. It is great against Jace, most creatures and equipment, where as titan is a quick clock, has pseudo protection from removal but can get chumped for days and doesn't solve one of the big problems with the deck of just getting too far behind, which has been a huge issue for me when playing MUD.

With the list that I posted recently, I rarely do get behind much. It's only in rare occasions where my opponents has like 3 out of 4 wasteland in his opener to really put me behind. Most of the time, my deck gets well ahead of my opponent because that 12 post tech is imbalance, underrated, and far superior strategy that not a lot of people realize. My problem with my list is sometimes I get overwhelmed with mana that I'm not drawing threats or game changers, but more lands. That's the problem with 24 lands. But, the Pro that overtakes the con of playing 24 lands is that 24 lands provide very consistent and keep-able hands. Mud is a deck that needs a lot of mana to do business.

You definitely want both cards. I run 2 Ugin and 1 Sundering Titan because I want to be able to draw Ugin, but not have him always in my opener because it can be a dead card sometimes if you don't have the mana for it. There are times when I get bad hands that don't have enough playable mana in it. Card selection is all depended on your meta. It's your call.

[Alex Holland]

Sundering titan = mehhh.. un evasive fatty that kills 2/3 lands on landing. why not just win the game?

I have tried the following list wich consist of some concepts i tried in the past. First of all its loaded with big threads. wurmcoil because he swings hard and returns when dying and hellkite because destroys whole boards and is a pumpable with 12post mana wich is lethal fast.

I run 3 thran dynamo next to metalworkers. While monoliths offer a quick burst thran dynamos are essentialy metalworkers that die harder when resolved. when you have a thran dynamo + 4 mana from regular lands you just win because you can drop multiple threads a turn. (+ UGIN enabler)

Talking about threads- this deck tends to run out of steam quick. Thats why i put in scroll rack. This is essentially a card filter and when you just keep drawing lands with a board full of mana you just trade them for something nice. It wins games.

Third strange tech is scarecrone- he has a double use: first you can sac him for 1 to draw 1. Essentially it has cycling (4) if you sac him instantly, wich isnt bad when you desperatly need something else. + its second ability reads T4: return a artifact creature to play from the graveyard. Thats sick in this deck, if they CAN deal with threads then we have a nice filled graveyard.

Special shout outs to mishra's factory and blinkmoth nexus. I could have went with mutavault (because it sacs to scarecrone in a draw) but i choose these because they are artifacts (so you can sac them to kuldotha) and they buy you time to get out your 12post mana. People dont like facing a 3/3 assembly worker. And a 2/2 fyling blocker scares delvers away every day.

Anyway heres my list, what do you think?

PS: Ugin is awesome when resolved!


'ugin's magical mana man land'

3 Thran Dynamo
4 Metalworker

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

2 Scroll Rack

3 Scarecrone
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Steel Hellkite
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves

2 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

SB: 4 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Platinum Emperion
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Duplicant

Results testing:

reanimate 2-0
RUG 2-1
high tide 1-0
Burn 1-2
ANT 2-0
dredge 2-0
goblins 1-2
RU delver 2-0

[Bobmans]

This... is the most explosive (pre-Ugin) version of MUD i have ever played. This deck has the speed and the tools to pin-point opposing decks weaknesses and just stomp face.

Biggest changes i had since i played it a couple of months back where:
-2 Voltaic Key for +2 Daretti, Scrap Savant
While Daretti was a nice utility walker, the impact on the board was still pretty low. So after some testing i decided to change the following:

-2 Daretti, Scrap Savant for +2 Karn Liberated.
This was both to try the shell and find out if it can support Ugin and the deck needed answers to problems that needed to be solved. In that regard i also changed:

-1 Spine of Ish Sah for +1 Steel Hellkite
While Spine did answer some problems, it was pretty much horrible after it done it's work leaving you with scrap metal. Being able to achieve the same with the 5/5 flyer also gives recurring ratchet bombs. This puts more pressure on the board. Especcially against the horror match-up Elves.

-1 Wurmcoil Engine for +1 Steel Hellkite (Masticore)
While Wurmcoil Engine provides some excellent pressure on the board and sometimes closes out/wins games like Batterskull does, it sometimes doesn't solve problems that can present itself more often then not. So i might find that having Steel Hellkite as a tag team buddy will solve the problems AND still puts the pressure on the board i desire.
The Masticore will be in the 2nd Hellkite spot for now. Masticore has always been a very strong creature (when it was in standard every deck played them) and i think it still has appeal in combination with Goblin Welder. Also being able to shoot down critters and regenerating when chump blocking gives it some greatly received flexibility. If it doesn't work out the way i hope then it will be switched back to the 2nd Hellkite.

Then the changes that are planned when Ugin, the Spirit Dragon joines the party (received by mail):
-2 Karn Liberated for +2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Ugin is the new card everyone is excited about. This card is just what MUD was missing. A sweeper that can close out the game. Something that can change the boardstate from being bad, to (easily) winnable. So far it was pretty easy to have 8+ mana on T2/T3 with this version of the deck and i expect it to be a better shell for Ugin then Cloudpost is. This sounds unlogical to me to, but having played this version of the deck i can say it is just broken...
Ugin's +X does kill your Goblin Welder, but ask yourself this: "Do i care?". Goblin Welder enables the mana sources or revives board pressure so that you have time to drop Ugin. Once it does, you should be able to win from there without Welder. Or you just draw a new one. Also the same was true for All is Dust, but losing Welder just to sweep the board was a small price to pay to overcome a negative boardstate.

Sideboard:
-2 All is Dust for +2 Karn Liberated
-1 Staff of Domination for +1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Both are very strong. Being able to swift MUD into a more controllish build (vs Miracles) creates a state where especially Ugin will shine, but Karn should not be underestimated as a sort of advanced version of Liliana of the Veil. Also with the presence of Ugin, the staff is no longer required as an alternative wincon under Ensnaring Bridge. I hate that staff....


1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Steel Hellkite/Masticore
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Goblin Welder

3 Lightning Greaves
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Karn Liberated

4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Opal

2 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Sundering Titan
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Staff of Domination
SB: 2 All Is Dust

[Alex Holland]

Minor changes; 1 sundering titan because meta and 1 staff of domination added because i kinda missed him and with all the 12post mana its a crime not to include him! :laugh:

'ugin's magical mana man land'

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Steel Hellkite
3 Scarecrone

4 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thran Dynamo
1 Staff of Domination
2 Scroll Rack

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Vesuva
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors

[Bobmans]

Today i played the list posted above and went T4 on a 15 player event. -1 Staff and +1 Spine.
Some good players showed and had a blast playing. I ended 3-2 and nearly missed T4, but the 7 pointer matchup ended a draw and had best ranking with the 9 pointers. Anyway:

R1: Bug delver 0-2
G1: T1 Lodestone Golem. It was nearly a win, but i was not able to find more mana sources and my opponent was able to cast a Liliana. So close ad he was on 2 life.
G2, This time i had more business and had a T2 Golem with Lightning Greaves. Again he had a quick Liliana and held me off mana to recover.

R2: Moggcatcher Stompy 2-1
G1: i had Welder out and Masticore joined the party. he Moggcatched a Murderous Redcap and i was not able to flip Platinum Emporion back in with Welder. I did shoot down the Moggcatcher with Masticore, but i attacked with Masticore while i should have held him back to block. Tuktuk Scraper took Masticore out when i had no mana. Game.
G2 T3 Blighsteel Colossus with boots showed up.
G3 A couple of Rabblemaster kicked me to 3 life points, but i was able to Forge a Platinum Emporion while i still had the Forgemaster, Welder and Greaves online with a Wurmcoil to cast next turn. He could might have overextended with the 2 Rabblemasters.

R3: JunK Depths 2-0
G1: We durdled around for a bit and then i dropped a Sundering Titan taking out his 3 duals leaving him with Depths, Bojuka Bog and Maze of Ith. Goblin Welder tricks kept him of mana and i was able to beat down with a Titan and a Golem.
G2: was a bit harder, but Emperion prevented me from dying against a 10/10 something Knight of the Reliquary and was able to beat him down slowly with Emperion, Golem and Forgemaster.

R4: Miracles 2-0
G1 i was able to land a Metalworker and the next turn a Forgemaster. Tgose didnt get answered by stp to i went for an unprotected Blightsteel Colossus. he didnt draw stp or terminus and scooped.
G2 T1 i played Welder which got plowed. T2 i played Chalice on 1 which got fowd. T3 i played Golem. No answer. T4 i played a second Golem. Also no answer. He was stuck on 1 mana.

R5: DnT 0-2
This was a friend of mine. I feared this matchup a bit.
G1 i had a Metalworker. But he had Revoker. Then ik had Forgemaster but a second Revoker showed up and some beatings followed.
G2: we durdled a bit and i landed a Karn Liberated taking his Serra Avenger. He casted Councils Judgement. Then i had Steel Hellkite, but he had another Council. I couldnt recover.

T4: Same DnT player 0-2
G1 and G2 went pretty much the same. I was able to explode T1 and T2 but he was able to find the right answers. Masticore and Platinum Emperion showed up but it didnt matter.

The DnT is a tough one, aswell as the BUG matchup. I suppose i need more play time with this deck and try to find out how to play better against those decks.

The deck itself is really fast, but has slight problems maintaining. Might have to do with me overextending and making wrong decisions.

Also i might have missed Staff of Domination that could have won me the DnT MU. Not sure. I curtainly wished Ugin was in the deck. A lot of ocassions i was able to cast him and it would have made big difference.

[Mockingbird]

Browsed the Star City Premier IQ's today and found that MUD-Post made 5th Place, losing out to Maverick, two Lands.dec's, and Sneak and Show.

Deck Lists (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=01/25/2015&end_date=01/25/2015&start=1&finish=32&city=Washington&state=DC&limit=50)

MUD-Post Decklist (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79192)

//Creatures: 20
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Sundering Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine

//Lands: 24
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva

//Artifacts: 16
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff Of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
4 Trinisphere

//Sideboard
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Duplicant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Wurmcoil Engine

[dcosiem]

Browsed the Star City Premier IQ's today and found that MUD-Post made 5th Place, losing out to Maverick, two Lands.dec's, and Sneak and Show.

Deck Lists (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=01/25/2015&end_date=01/25/2015&start=1&finish=32&city=Washington&state=DC&limit=50)

MUD-Post Decklist (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79192)

//Creatures: 20
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Sundering Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine

//Lands: 24
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva

//Artifacts: 16
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff Of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
4 Trinisphere

//Sideboard
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Duplicant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Wurmcoil Engine

Yea, I met the dude who piloted it. I was very impressed that he started playing the deck only the day before. Perhaps he was lying. I played him in my second round.

[Ruckusmh]

Yea, I met the dude who piloted it. I was very impressed that he started playing the deck only the day before. Perhaps he was lying. I played him in my second round.

Not that the deck doesn't take any skill to play well in terms of sequencing and stuff, but when MUD is running hot it's just about unbeatable. Great players can squeeze a bit more out of it, but if you draw well a monkey could play it and absolutely destroy most anything you put in front of it.

[Bobmans]

Not that the deck doesn't take any skill to play well in terms of sequencing and stuff, but when MUD is running hot it's just about unbeatable. Great players can squeeze a bit more out of it, but if you draw well a monkey could play it and absolutely destroy most anything you put in front of it.
What is your point?

MUD is a good deck. If you know how to play against the format the deck is a monster, but it can still loose on lousy openings and bad draws.
Trying to brainless auto pilot this deck will give you free games, but that doesnt put you in top8. Especcially the Cloudpost variant which is typically 1-2 turns slower and fairly easy to disrupt.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

What's the Miracles match-up like? The primer doesn't seem to touch on the subject much...

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Ruckusmh]

What is your point?

MUD is a good deck. If you know how to play against the format the deck is a monster, but it can still loose on lousy openings and bad draws.
Trying to brainless auto pilot this deck will give you free games, but that doesnt put you in top8. Especcially the Cloudpost variant which is typically 1-2 turns slower and fairly easy to disrupt.

Didn't mean to offend, MUD is the main deck I play at the moment. One of the reasons I love it is the sheer power.

No deck is easy to play at a high level, but when MUD runs well it is very difficult to interact with.

I'm still a little torn on wasteland vs the 4 cavern 4 vesuva plan, is there a general consensus or still up to preference?

[Mockingbird]

What's the Miracles match-up like? The primer doesn't seem to touch on the subject much...

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Favorable, but not the equivalent of a bye. Chalice for 1 is more effective than Trinisphere. MUD-Post has the strongest match-up out of all the MUD variants because Miracles always struggles with decks that have access to more mana (and things to abuse with it) than low curve decks (that also helps us deal with counterbalance-top lock). Generally, play Cavern of Souls and if Miracles is prevalent in your area, siding Eye of Ugin + Eldrazi just crushes them (the deck can naturally play Kozilek, Butcher of Truth and can even squeeze out Emrakul, the Aeons Torn if the game grinds long enough). Beware random Blood Moons. If you play Ratchet Bomb, save it for the Angels (also Ugin comes in handy in keeping their field under control). Otherwise, play normal as far as I know.

[Zirath]

What's the Miracles match-up like? The primer doesn't seem to touch on the subject much...

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Very good. You have to play it correctly but you should do well against Miracles the majority of the time.

Cavern of Souls, Revoker and Lodestone Golem are very important in this match up.

[Alex Holland]

Very good. You have to play it correctly but you should do well against Miracles the majority of the time.

Cavern of Souls, Revoker and Lodestone Golem are very important in this match up.

miracles just dies from a well placed chalice or trinisphere. when i see entreat the angels it most often just creates 1 4/4 angel wich is\nt scary at all. Especially since glimmerpost can make quitte some life gain during a miracles game. Just calmly keep playing bigger threads and they cant do much about it.


I would like to point out that lodestone golems/ trinispheres best friend is wasteland. You dont have to sac them but you could when advantageous. I play 3 wasteland now just for these situations.

Land base currently:

24 -------
3 wasteland
3 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
3 vesuva
4 glimmerpost
4 cloudpost
3 mishra's factory

[dcosiem]

Not that the deck doesn't take any skill to play well in terms of sequencing and stuff, but when MUD is running hot it's just about unbeatable. Great players can squeeze a bit more out of it, but if you draw well a monkey could play it and absolutely destroy most anything you put in front of it.

I mean, he did make top 8. It was good that my friend beat him with Lands. I eventually saw my friend at the top table. I didn't want to see Mud twice at finals.

[Mr. Froggy]

MUD isn't the hardest deck to play, not by a long shot. But the sheer raw power it has is completely nuts, though.

[Bobmans]

Wohoo. (3x) Ugin has been delivered. Time to bust some nuts!!!

[Alex Holland]

Wohoo. (3x) Ugin has been delivered. Time to bust some nuts!!!

3x seems a little lot. Or is it?

[Bobmans]

3x seems a little lot. Or is it?
They have to show up, have to resolve and they may be killed only to show up again.

I run 2 main and 1 on the side for now in my welder build.

[Michael Keller]

Wohoo. (3x) Ugin has been delivered. Time to bust some nuts!!!

I just received mine in the mail, too. I'll definitely be running two.

[Alex Holland]

I just received mine in the mail, too. I'll definitely be running two.

I run two maindeck, they are a sweeper and a wincon.

Talking about sweepers; anyone ever tried oblivion stone in mud? Its ok in tron and since MUD took their cloudpost mana base.

[Bobmans]

I run two maindeck, they are a sweeper and a wincon.

Talking about sweepers; anyone ever tried oblivion stone in mud? Its ok in tron and since MUD took their cloudpost mana base.
Havent tried O.Stone, but with having Spine of Ish Sah, Steel Hellkite, Ugin, Karn and All is Dust i cannot imagine a 12 mana costing removal is better then these options.

[Alex Holland]

Havent tried O.Stone, but with having Spine of Ish Sah, Steel Hellkite, Ugin, Karn and All is Dust i cannot imagine a 12 mana costing removal is better then these options.

Spine of ish shah isnt very much played anymore. Probaly due to karn. Karn is kind of obsolete for MUD since Ugin. The problem with Karn is that he doesnt work against a horde of threads because he kan only take on 1 permanent at a time. I think ugin also makes all is dust unnatractive- ugin hits colored permanents too and is 1 mana more while doing a lot more.

O.Stone is not 12 mana. it cost 3 to play and 5 to blow up the board. Thats 8 if you want to use him directly. Yes he blows up artifacts too- wich is a problem if you play lock pieces on the other hand> he can be tutored up when needed by kuldotha (maybe 1 of?) and reset the game wich might be handy when you have a lot of post mana laying around. Its a theory.

[Bobmans]

Spine of ish shah isnt very much played anymore. Probaly due to karn. Karn is kind of obsolete for MUD since Ugin. The problem with Karn is that he doesnt work against a horde of threads because he kan only take on 1 permanent at a time. I think ugin also makes all is dust unnatractive- ugin hits colored permanents too and is 1 mana more while doing a lot more.

O.Stone is not 12 mana. it cost 3 to play and 5 to blow up the board. Thats 8 if you want to use him directly. Yes he blows up artifacts too- wich is a problem if you play lock pieces on the other hand> he can be tutored up when needed by kuldotha (maybe 1 of?) and reset the game wich might be handy when you have a lot of post mana laying around. Its a theory.

Spine is still a very solid choice. It can be fetched with Forgemaster and solves problems on the spot. I keep it in my 75 as an answer all. It worked wonders against several decks ie Batterskull, Jace, Emrakul, etc.

Karn Liberated and Ugin are way different. Kind of like Jace and Liliana different. Ugin is probably the better choice in most cases, but against certain matchups i would rather have Karn. Karn can be seen as a Liliana of the Veil. It removes problematic permanents while also being able to put pressure on the opponents hand. Ugin is different. Ugin is what was missing in MUD. It shoots down smaller creatures, with the upside of a build in sweep. So he is Pernicious Deed and Lightning Bolt in one, but both don't help in some matchup (Combo/heavy Control).
Anyway, Elves of all critter decks is one of the decks where Ugin should shine and Elves is a difficult matchup.
Its Ultimate is more of a win more. By the time you can activate it you won already.

As for OStone i read his second ability backwards, but reading it makes me think of a weird version of Nevinyrral's Disk. I still think we have better options in the previius mentioned.

[Michael Keller]

I really keep going back to Razormane Masticore in this deck. In fact, I like it better than Lodestone Golem - even though both serve alternate purposes while still being beaters. Lightning Bolt is still highly prevalent and I just don't like the toughness of three in there. His ability becomes overly redundant, and while taxing opposition is always nice, wouldn't Chalice and Trinisphere be enough here?

I get that most lists run him for a reason, but I don't know, I'm always underwhelmed whenever I play this guy. Of course, my list is slightly different than most builds.

[kingtk3]

I used to play razormane masticore in my stompy build (no forgemaster) as a sideboard card (two slots): it was solid in the match ups where it was needed, but the drawback can sometimes "lock" you out of the game.
It certainly is a strong option but it's better in more aggressive versions of the deck

[Mr. Froggy]

I love the Golems in my deck, would never run less than 4.

[Bobmans]

Third strange tech is scarecrone- he has a double use: first you can sac him for 1 to draw 1. Essentially it has cycling (4) if you sac him instantly, wich isnt bad when you desperatly need something else. + its second ability reads T4: return a artifact creature to play from the graveyard. Thats sick in this deck, if they CAN deal with threads then we have a nice filled graveyard.


How where the Scarecrone's in actual gameplay? Decided to order a couple and try them aswell. The card has been on my radar.

Although i really like my Welder build i am gonna run Cloudpost instead. I think that Cloudpost can support Ugin a bit better/different.

So this list i have thought up and going to take out for some play. Still need to find space to fit in 2 Scarecrone.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland

4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Lodestone Golem

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Crucible of Worlds

2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus

3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard:
1 Trinisphere
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Karn Liberated
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 open slots

[Alex Holland]

Scarecrone is three mana so you can play them always. Im not sure if they should be main-deck. But of course you can always sac them for a draw if u wish.
Maybe put 2 of them in your open sideboard slots?
Side them in against control with many counters and against decks that run discard. T4 mana to bring back a fatty? nice!

Why no duplicant in your sideboard? Its funny against show and tell.

Also, since you run 3 ugins you might want to consider thran dynamo instead of grim monolith. Its 2 mana more but it gives 3 mana every turn the rest of your game, its a more resilient metalworker. i love them.

[MGB]

Guys, quick question for all those who have tested the card in MUD so far:

How has Ugin the Spirit Dragon been performing for you in this deck? I haven't played MUD in a long time but the recent success testing Ugin in Modern in my Tron deck has me wondering if this card could single-handedly turn MUD into a real Tier 1 contender in Legacy. Has Ugin been as successful as I think it should be or not?

[Bobmans]

So far i havent resolved one yet in tournament. As a 2-off with 0 manipulation cards have a tendency to not show up or at the wrong time.
Had 2 rounds actual tournament play with Ugin.
BUG Delver 1-2 G1 Bad Keep 7, Ugin got discarded by Hymn to Tourach.
G2 Blow out. T1 i put Mountain + Welder. T2 he has untapped USea. I decide to waste it instead of going City of Traitors + Metalworker. The next turn i do and hes stuck with Bayou and Wasteland. He wastes the city, but i was able to drop Lodestone Golem and Steel Hellkite on my turn. (Ugin could have resolved T2 here, but wasnt there).
G3 Mull 5. T1 Land, DRS. T2 Hymn + Waste. T3 Abrupt Decay on Monolith, scoop..
R2 Storm. 2-0. Ugin is obsolete here.
G1, T2 Lodestone Golem is enough.
G2, He probes and see Great Furnace, welder, 3sphere, forgemaster, golem, emperion, lotus petal. I top a monolith and go T1 Trinisphere stopping him from go of T2. We draw go for a bit until i find a City of Triators and am able to land a second monolith, a LGreaves and a Welder. Start flipping some mana and drop emperion.

Overall only the BUG matchup was representative. With BUG delver you would want to be very fast. Knowing when to mull key.

[Alex Holland]

So far i havent resolved one yet in tournament. As a 2-off with 0 manipulation cards have a tendency to not show up or at the wrong time.
Had 2 rounds actual tournament play with Ugin.
BUG Delver 1-2 G1 Bad Keep 7, Ugin got discarded by Hymn to Tourach.
G2 Blow out. T1 i put Mountain + Welder. T2 he has untapped USea. I decide to waste it instead of going City of Traitors + Metalworker. The next turn i do and hes stuck with Bayou and Wasteland. He wastes the city, but i was able to drop Lodestone Golem and Steel Hellkite on my turn. (Ugin could have resolved T2 here, but wasnt there).
G3 Mull 5. T1 Land, DRS. T2 Hymn + Waste. T3 Abrupt Decay on Monolith, scoop..
R2 Storm. 2-0. Ugin is obsolete here.
G1, T2 Lodestone Golem is enough.
G2, He probes and see Great Furnace, welder, 3sphere, forgemaster, golem, emperion, lotus petal. I top a monolith and go T1 Trinisphere stopping him from go of T2. We draw go for a bit until i find a City of Triators and am able to land a second monolith, a LGreaves and a Welder. Start flipping some mana and drop emperion.

Overall only the BUG matchup was representative. With BUG delver you would want to be very fast. Knowing when to mull key.

Thats why put in 2 scroll rack. It doesnt care about chalice because 2 mana and it can dig pretty deep in your deck.

Also thran dynamo over monolith. Try it once and be amazed. t2 into 4 mana happens often, i drop thran and play a trinisphere of it- no couters? then next turn i have 7 mana wich is enough. essentialy than dynamo is (harder to remove) metalworker 5-7, plus its good against wasteland locks against lands.

[Tourach]

Guys, quick question for all those who have tested the card in MUD so far:

How has Ugin the Spirit Dragon been performing for you in this deck? I haven't played MUD in a long time but the recent success testing Ugin in Modern in my Tron deck has me wondering if this card could single-handedly turn MUD into a real Tier 1 contender in Legacy. Has Ugin been as successful as I think it should be or not?

In my short experience, he is beyond good. I have two problems frequently with MUD (I'm on a 11-Post-list, monobrown, 2x Ugin):
a) I get crippled by discard, Daze und Wasteland: Ugin doesn't help there, but neither do Karn or Sunderng Titan which used to take up the two Ugin-slots.
b) My opponent doesn't care about Chalice and Trinisphere and floods the board with creatures. Goblins for instance, a prominent deck where I play, can deploy so many dorks, they don't even care about Wurmcoil Engine. It's here that Ugin is insane: in the aggro-matchup, against an opponent without counters. It does everything you could expect from a card that expensive: clear the board and win shortly after.

Note that Death and Taxes can still drop a Revoker naming Ugin (which happens a lot). But then again, Revoker already names Forgemaster, Metalworker and Steel Hellkite.


On another topic: I happen to lose unnecessarily to Wasteland-recusion via Loam. That is a matchup I never have problem with apart from that. Does anyone have experience with Thran Dynamo against land destruction? I know the card from standard and also know it looks good in theory but I see downsides. It you get wasted early, you might never reach 4 mana. And 4 mana into Dynamo into Trinisphere leaves you vulnerable to Daze twice.

[Alex Holland]

In my short experience, he is beyond good. I have two problems frequently with MUD (I'm on a 11-Post-list, monobrown, 2x Ugin):
a) I get crippled by discard, Daze und Wasteland: Ugin doesn't help there, but neither do Karn or Sunderng Titan which used to take up the two Ugin-slots.
b) My opponent doesn't care about Chalice and Trinisphere and floods the board with creatures. Goblins for instance, a prominent deck where I play, can deploy so many dorks, they don't even care about Wurmcoil Engine. It's here that Ugin is insane: in the aggro-matchup, against an opponent without counters. It does everything you could expect from a card that expensive: clear the board and win shortly after.

Note that Death and Taxes can still drop a Revoker naming Ugin (which happens a lot). But then again, Revoker already names Forgemaster, Metalworker and Steel Hellkite.


On another topic: I happen to lose unnecessarily to Wasteland-recusion via Loam. That is a matchup I never have problem with apart from that. Does anyone have experience with Thran Dynamo against land destruction? I know the card from standard and also know it looks good in theory but I see downsides. It you get wasted early, you might never reach 4 mana. And 4 mana into Dynamo into Trinisphere leaves you vulnerable to Daze twice.

I always found ratchet bomb pretty solid against goblins, elves, even delver.

The difference between 2 and 4 mana isnt big in MUD. Plus it really isnt that expensive since you can tap thran dynamo carefree- it will untap next turn. If they daze it all the better. They only can daze so much, just spam a constant stream of must counters. sometimes i play dynamo into worker, upon they counter worker. I dont care. i have dynamo out + 4 mana. all i need.

[BTY]

Guys, quick question for all those who have tested the card in MUD so far:

How has Ugin the Spirit Dragon been performing for you in this deck? I haven't played MUD in a long time but the recent success testing Ugin in Modern in my Tron deck has me wondering if this card could single-handedly turn MUD into a real Tier 1 contender in Legacy. Has Ugin been as successful as I think it should be or not?

While Ugin is a great printing for the deck I can't see it turning the deck into a Tier 1 contender. MUD has always been an ok choice and there has never been a problem with its power level but the consistency is lacking. While Ugin solves some problems it doesn't solve everything, most specifically the inherent inconsistency of the deck. Opening hands of multiple city of traitors as the only lands, only vesuvas or a bunch of 5-8 drops with only 3 mana producing lands still happen and until that changes then I can't see a future where MUD consistently top 8s large events like various delver decks or miracles, unless there is just a large influx of MUD players for some reason. Now don't get me wrong, when you cast Ugin he is fantastic but with wasteland being a lot more popular since cruise left getting the mana is still a problem.

[Michael Keller]

While Ugin is a great printing for the deck I can't see it turning the deck into a Tier 1 contender. MUD has always been an ok choice and there has never been a problem with its power level but the consistency is lacking. While Ugin solves some problems it doesn't solve everything, most specifically the inherent inconsistency of the deck. Opening hands of multiple city of traitors as the only lands, only vesuvas or a bunch of 5-8 drops with only 3 mana producing lands still happen and until that changes then I can't see a future where MUD consistently top 8s large events like various delver decks or miracles, unless there is just a large influx of MUD players for some reason. Now don't get me wrong, when you cast Ugin he is fantastic but with wasteland being a lot more popular since cruise left getting the mana is still a problem.

This is kind of where I was going back to before: the deck should be running Darksteel Citadel in multiples, if not four. I use it as an alternative to Wasteland. In Post-based builds, you're looking to advance your resources as opposed to setting yourself back. It's different in Legacy than Vintage, because you don't have Moxen and broken accelerates to cheat your way out of mana screw. In Legacy and especially the Post builds, you need to develop your resources.

Wasteland is great if you're playing a more taxing variety of MUD with additional sphere effects, but I just don't think it's worth the space here. I would feel so much more comfortable dropping a Darksteel Citadel turn one as opposed to a Wasteland or some other mana source that is sure to be destroyed by an opposing Wasteland, even if sequenced correctly.

I know I'm the guy who is coming in and saying Lodestone Golem and Wasteland might not be the way to go here, but what I can offer is some outside perspective from someone who is a closet-MUD fanatic and player and has paid attention to and studied whatever video there is out there to determine the deck's strengths and weaknesses - aside from the obvious general inconsistencies the deck presents.

Don't hack me to pieces for trying something a little different here, but does anyone think a build with Razormane Masticore - which seems extremely good in this deck right now - could be used in conjunction with, say, a singleton or pair of Ghost Towns? Ghost Town could help feed Masticore as a de facto Squee of sorts, in addition to allowing you to play a freshly drawn business spell that you don't want to discard. During your opponent's turn, bring the Town back to your hand and discard it to Masticore.

Just an idea.

[potatodavid]

Razormane Masticore[/cards] - which seems extremely good in this deck right now - could be used in conjunction with, say, a singleton or pair of Ghost Towns? Ghost Town could help feed Masticore as a de facto Squee of sorts, in addition to allowing you to play a freshly drawn business spell that you don't want to discard. During your opponent's turn, bring the Town back to your hand and discard it to Masticore.

Just an idea.

*raises pitchfork*

I do like the idea of Razor Kitty but I feel like he'd be best as a singleton or a 2 of. or a bad replacement for Lodestone Golem. the 5 mana is what royally sucks. I would definetly have him a try in a Daretti/Welder Build. And I would be running Scuttling Doom Engine as a singleton in the deck as well. That card has been performing for me so well for me as of late.

[Michael Keller]

*raises pitchfork*

I do like the idea of Razor Kitty but I feel like he'd be best as a singleton or a 2 of. or a bad replacement for Lodestone Golem. the 5 mana is what royally sucks. I would definetly have him a try in a Daretti/Welder Build. And I would be running Scuttling Doom Engine as a singleton in the deck as well. That card has been performing for me so well for me as of late.

I just really don't think that five mana is an issue with this deck, as a large part of the deck's fabric is designed with acceleration in mind. Getting to five mana on turn two or three is definitely not a stretch in MUD - especially with a Post mana base. I'm more concerned with card quality as opposed to mana quantity. If I can generate a boatload of mana, I am fairly comfortable with investing it in a card or cards that operate well with the overall strategy of the deck, which is to overwhelm opponents with huge artifact creatures. The Lightning Bolt effect is highly underrated here, as is the card's first-striking ability.

Those abilities, while attractive on paper, are even more powerful in actual in-game scenarios where you're not only controlling the board but dealing damage in the process.

Five mana seems slightly closer to the mean converted mana cost in my build at least, and in a Post-build base that seems just fine as a two-of. It also depends on what draw elements you're running, too. The card becomes that much better when you're drawing extra cards to feed Masticore. We're also only talking about a two-of, at most. Pushing this card through opposing defenses shouldn't be hard when you consider this thing can do eight damage and stay on the table.

[BTY]

This is kind of where I was going back to before: the deck should be running Darksteel Citadel in multiples, if not four. I use it as an alternative to Wasteland. In Post-based builds, you're looking to advance your resources as opposed to setting yourself back. It's different in Legacy than Vintage, because you don't have Moxen and broken accelerates to cheat your way out of mana screw. In Legacy and especially the Post builds, you need to develop your resources.

Wasteland is great if you're playing a more taxing variety of MUD with additional sphere effects, but I just don't think it's worth the space here. I would feel so much more comfortable dropping a Darksteel Citadel turn one as opposed to a Wasteland or some other mana source that is sure to be destroyed by an opposing Wasteland, even if sequenced correctly.

I know I'm the guy who is coming in and saying Lodestone Golem and Wasteland might not be the way to go here, but what I can offer is some outside perspective from someone who is a closet-MUD fanatic and player and has paid attention to and studied whatever video there is out there to determine the deck's strengths and weaknesses - aside from the obvious general inconsistencies the deck presents.

Don't hack me to pieces for trying something a little different here, but does anyone think a build with Razormane Masticore - which seems extremely good in this deck right now - could be used in conjunction with, say, a singleton or pair of Ghost Towns? Ghost Town could help feed Masticore as a de facto Squee of sorts, in addition to allowing you to play a freshly drawn business spell that you don't want to discard. During your opponent's turn, bring the Town back to your hand and discard it to Masticore.

Just an idea.

When I first got into legacy with this deck I couldn't afford wastelands at the time so i started with citadel and after playing with both I found I always preferred citadel. Wasteland sometimes leads to free wins but it is really just wishful thinking that you will get them a lot of the time. MUD doesn't have a whole lot of trouble getting free wins either because of 3sphere and chalice.

While I don't necessarily agree with cutting lodestone, given how little success the deck has seen relative to others, it isn't unreasonable to want to move in a different direction.

I have played Masticore in the board before for death and taxes and given how much blanks the deck draws sometimes I can see it being reasonable in the main. Ghost town is a little deep but it might be ok? Im not sure. Maybe just moving away from the 12 post completely could be the solution, I have had some success with Daretti welder MUD before cruise, i haven't played it since khans (i dropped it for no particular reason i can remember) so I might try exploring that again. I think what we mainly need to look for is cheaper ways to have an effect on the game, which is the main reason that drew me to Daretti in the first place. I'm not entirely sure where we should go from here but I do think we have to go smaller, not bigger, so we don't just get tempoed or wasted out of the game before we can drop our bombs.

I might try a daretti list. Cutting forgemaster and some of that package for masticore (does a good job of enabling welder) and some extra card draw like staff of nin or maybe coercive portal.

[Alex Holland]

Masticore? Serious? Against what deck? If you play it right youll smash aggro decks.

cutting lodestone is wrong. I dont like his body, but he wins so many games against combo decks + decent damage per turn ratio. Im happy dropping t2 lodestone if i dont have a trinisphere on hand.

[BTY]

Masticore? Serious? Against what deck? If you play it right youll smash aggro decks.

cutting lodestone is wrong. I dont like his body, but he wins so many games against combo decks + decent damage per turn ratio. Im happy dropping t2 lodestone if i dont have a trinisphere on hand.

Masticore beats pretty much every playable creature in the format. The only exceptions I can think of right now are a giant KotR and TNN or eldrazi. It kills delver, Young pyro and friends, SFM, DRS, lingering souls tokens, mother of runes, infects creatures, snapcaster, baleful strix, the list goes on and on and that is just the list of things it kills. If there is a big goyf you can deal three and attack into it because of first strike, same for tasigur, even griselbrand. It also enables welder, survives burn spells and its hard to block and burn out as well. It is always a 4 turn clock as well with little commitment on your part. An added plus is that it beats the deck death and taxes by itself. Even if it gets plowed after you discard you probably didn't just discard a useful card but a redundant land or lock piece, as this deck has a lot of poor draws.

I'm also not saying that cutting Lodestone is correct, I am planning on playing the full four in the deck I'm currently working on.

Edit: I'm going to try to post a list tonight so it can be critiqued in context.

[Alex Holland]

Masticore beats pretty much every playable creature in the format. The only exceptions I can think of right now are a giant KotR and TNN or eldrazi. It kills delver, Young pyro and friends, SFM, DRS, lingering souls tokens, mother of runes, infects creatures, snapcaster, baleful strix, the list goes on and on and that is just the list of things it kills. If there is a big goyf you can deal three and attack into it because of first strike, same for tasigur, even griselbrand. It also enables welder, survives burn spells and its hard to block and burn out as well. It is always a 4 turn clock as well with little commitment on your part. An added plus is that it beats the deck death and taxes by itself. Even if it gets plowed after you discard you probably didn't just discard a useful card but a redundant land or lock piece, as this deck has a lot of poor draws.

I'm also not saying that cutting Lodestone is correct, I am planning on playing the full four in the deck I'm currently working on.

Edit: I'm going to try to post a list tonight so it can be critiqued in context.

A kill rate of 1 creature a turn isnt very good.

A combination of welder does seem nice, i dont know if people still use welder? Havent seen him in a while.

[potatodavid]

I have been pretty successful with a Welder/Daretti version that is running scuttling dumb dumb. (scuttling doomengine) Mostly as an Alternate to Sundering Titan. There is so many things that cannot block him, and if they do, they're taking 6. He's even funnier when you chain a daretti + welder to the face of your opponent. The more Hollywood mentions razorkitten Masticore, the more I want to try out again.

[BTY]

A kill rate of 1 creature a turn isnt very good.

A combination of welder does seem nice, i dont know if people still use welder? Havent seen him in a while.

I was talking about using it in a welder shell. I haven't played it a whole lot with it in post variants besides out of the sideboard, even still though kill one creature a turn is still reasonable if it allows you to attack for 5 a turn. Killing creatures is never bad, even if it is slow, and the first strike is always relevant in combat. I'll try to get my list up here later tonight or tomorrow morning.

[BTY]

Even though I hate double posting this is probably going to be the only time when I can get this up. Anyway here is the list I have been trying. I haven't tested it much so a lot of this is still theoretical and I have no idea how if a lot of these numbers are reasonable/warranted/necessary but this is what I'm planning on tweaking in the few weeks.

4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Razormane Masticore
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Steel Hellkite
2 Myr Battlesphere

2 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Staff of Nin
1 Staff of Domination
3 Daretti, Scrapper Savant

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnace
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mountain

SB
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Trinisphere
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sundering Titan
2 Blood Moon

Firstly I just want to state I have no idea if this is aware close to correct or not but this is where I have settled for now.

I don't know if I want to play grim monolith or not. I could be wrong for not including it but in testing so far I have been benefiting greatly from the extra threat density. Maybe after I play some more it may prove that grim monolith is necessary or/and great in the deck but until then I'm going to stick with none and see how well it performs. It is worth noting that monolith plays really well with welder, allows for turn 2 Daretti's and has a lot of advantages but right now I think I want to be more threat dense.

Another card I omitted was forgemaster for a couple reasons. It does create some tension with welder, you want random artifacts in play to weld out and forgemaster wants to eat the same random artifacts. I also kind of feel like Forgemaster leads to the deck getting too cute and I'd rather just get back to more simple things, sometimes you just need a beater to get the job done and you don't need to get to fancy.

Razormane Masticore has been pretty good at beating down and clearing the way for other creatures. Enabling Welder is nice and a big reason I like it right now. One of the biggest problems with Welder MUD I have had in the past was no great way to get stuff into the yard without opposing discard, counterspells, and what not. I don't want to play cards like Faithless looting that lead to no chalices and having 7 ways to dump fatties into the yard while also threatening the opponent has been pretty solid.

I have 4 Wurmcoil because I think it is the best creature that doesn't have any broken activated abilities. 6 life a turn is great, it beats almost every creature and it has a nice built in resilience to removal. Flipping Wurmcoils with welder is fantastic, especially with one in the yard and one in play.

2 Myr Battlesphere is just to take advantage of goblin welder. So far two has been a good number, I don't want to draw many and I really only want to dump it into the graveyard for welder to reanimate.

2 Steel hellkite is my catch all answer to whatever nonsense my opponent is playing.

I'm running blood moons just because I want ways to punish greedy manabases and make random match ups that would probably be bad like Lands or Loam Pox into positive or winnable match ups. I know I want 4 in the 75, I don't know exactly how I want to split it yet but 2/2 has seemed fine. Blood Moon helps quite a bit against other black midrange decks that seem to be picking, mainly shardless bug.

2 Staff of Nins help grind and also get more fuel for Daretti or just more threats.

1 Staff of Domination to just kind of win when I draw it with Metalworker. It might just be better as an Ugin, Karn, Spine, or a 3rd blood moon.

For the sideboard, I think it is kind of a mess. I know I want the blood moons somewhere, they may just be better in the main but having two hedges kind of in match ups where it isn't stellar. I can bring in the other two when I want them or have two easy cards to board out when I need to. I also want at least two tormod's crypts, Dredge and Reanimator are powerful so I want a way to deal with them. I want two spines for sneak and show, it combos with welder, and it just answers a lot of nonsense out of midrange/control decks. I probably want Ratchet Bomb as a way of cleaning up small creatures and revokers are never bad. I definitely want Trinisphere or another sphere effect for storm, trinisphere seems like it has the most impact of the spheres so I'm running that for now. I've been thinking about changing sundering titan into an Ugin or Platinum Angel or Emperion, but I'm not sure yet.

Anyway with my limited testing I've been pretty satisfied with the deck, maybe extended testing will show otherwise but so far I think it is pretty reasonable. Anyway thoughts, criticisms, or any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

[Alex Holland]

Even though I hate double posting this is probably going to be the only time when I can get this up. Anyway here is the list I have been trying. I haven't tested it much so a lot of this is still theoretical and I have no idea how if a lot of these numbers are reasonable/warranted/necessary but this is what I'm planning on tweaking in the few weeks.

4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Razormane Masticore
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Steel Hellkite
2 Myr Battlesphere

2 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Staff of Nin
1 Staff of Domination
3 Daretti, Scrapper Savant

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnace
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mountain

SB
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Trinisphere
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sundering Titan
2 Blood Moon

Firstly I just want to state I have no idea if this is aware close to correct or not but this is where I have settled for now.

I don't know if I want to play grim monolith or not. I could be wrong for not including it but in testing so far I have been benefiting greatly from the extra threat density. Maybe after I play some more it may prove that grim monolith is necessary or/and great in the deck but until then I'm going to stick with none and see how well it performs. It is worth noting that monolith plays really well with welder, allows for turn 2 Daretti's and has a lot of advantages but right now I think I want to be more threat dense.

Another card I omitted was forgemaster for a couple reasons. It does create some tension with welder, you want random artifacts in play to weld out and forgemaster wants to eat the same random artifacts. I also kind of feel like Forgemaster leads to the deck getting too cute and I'd rather just get back to more simple things, sometimes you just need a beater to get the job done and you don't need to get to fancy.

Razormane Masticore has been pretty good at beating down and clearing the way for other creatures. Enabling Welder is nice and a big reason I like it right now. One of the biggest problems with Welder MUD I have had in the past was no great way to get stuff into the yard without opposing discard, counterspells, and what not. I don't want to play cards like Faithless looting that lead to no chalices and having 7 ways to dump fatties into the yard while also threatening the opponent has been pretty solid.

I have 4 Wurmcoil because I think it is the best creature that doesn't have any broken activated abilities. 6 life a turn is great, it beats almost every creature and it has a nice built in resilience to removal. Flipping Wurmcoils with welder is fantastic, especially with one in the yard and one in play.

2 Myr Battlesphere is just to take advantage of goblin welder. So far two has been a good number, I don't want to draw many and I really only want to dump it into the graveyard for welder to reanimate.

2 Steel hellkite is my catch all answer to whatever nonsense my opponent is playing.

I'm running blood moons just because I want ways to punish greedy manabases and make random match ups that would probably be bad like Lands or Loam Pox into positive or winnable match ups. I know I want 4 in the 75, I don't know exactly how I want to split it yet but 2/2 has seemed fine. Blood Moon helps quite a bit against other black midrange decks that seem to be picking, mainly shardless bug.

2 Staff of Nins help grind and also get more fuel for Daretti or just more threats.

1 Staff of Domination to just kind of win when I draw it with Metalworker. It might just be better as an Ugin, Karn, Spine, or a 3rd blood moon.

For the sideboard, I think it is kind of a mess. I know I want the blood moons somewhere, they may just be better in the main but having two hedges kind of in match ups where it isn't stellar. I can bring in the other two when I want them or have two easy cards to board out when I need to. I also want at least two tormod's crypts, Dredge and Reanimator are powerful so I want a way to deal with them. I want two spines for sneak and show, it combos with welder, and it just answers a lot of nonsense out of midrange/control decks. I probably want Ratchet Bomb as a way of cleaning up small creatures and revokers are never bad. I definitely want Trinisphere or another sphere effect for storm, trinisphere seems like it has the most impact of the spheres so I'm running that for now. I've been thinking about changing sundering titan into an Ugin or Platinum Angel or Emperion, but I'm not sure yet.

Anyway with my limited testing I've been pretty satisfied with the deck, maybe extended testing will show otherwise but so far I think it is pretty reasonable. Anyway thoughts, criticisms, or any suggestions are greatly appreciated.


Since you run red;

have you considered godo, bandit warlord? (5)(R) 3/3 EOT: place a equipment on the battlefield + samurai and godo have a extra combat phase

Back in the day i played this to get a free batterskull into play then next turn get a double attack with it attached (or not) to godo. Also godo is a human + magus of the moon true cavern of souls.

Funny since i started playing scroll rack (to some succes i like to think) i started thinking about bonfire of the damned again. Would be nice to use some miracle fueled one sided board wipe / win con (massive fireball) with it.

[BTY]

Since you run red;

have you considered godo, bandit warlord? (5)(R) 3/3 EOT: place a equipment on the battlefield + samurai and godo have a extra combat phase

Back in the day i played this to get a free batterskull into play then next turn get a double attack with it attached (or not) to godo. Also godo is a human + magus of the moon true cavern of souls.

Funny since i started playing scroll rack (to some succes i like to think) i started thinking about bonfire of the damned again. Would be nice to use some miracle fueled one sided board wipe / win con (massive fireball) with it.

I have not considered it. 6 mana is a lot for a creature that dies to bolt, and sure batterskull is great but I'd rather just run wurmcoil. Godo is expensive, sometimes it can be hard to get to six mana through wastelands, and it can't be welded in if I discard it with Daretti or Masticore. The fact that it isn't an artifact itself makes it a lot less appealing to me.

[Mr. Froggy]

I feel in MUD people need the least amount of non artifacts possible in the deck.

[Michael Keller]

Top 4ed with Ghost Town MUD yesterday at the local. Ghost Town worked well with Razormane, allowing me to play an Ugin off the top of my deck. Masticore shot down Young Pyromancer.

I also Jester's Cap'd out three Sword of the Meek against Thopters, which sealed the game.

[Bobmans]

Top 4ed with Ghost Town MUD yesterday at the local. Ghost Town worked well with Razormane, allowing me to play an Ugin off the top of my deck. Masticore shot down Young Pyromancer.

I also Jester's Cap'd out three Sword of the Meek against Thopters, which sealed the game.

Jester's Cap, nice Mister. How was your list performing overall? Thats out-of-the-box. I can see the appeal of Ghost Town, did you have Crucible of Worlds? Also was it Razormane Masticore or just Masticore? The latter is currently on my list, but a 5/5 First Strike is just much more beefy.

[Fry]

Hollywood, I'm very interested in seeing your list. It sounds like something I may want to try to incorporate into my existing list, or perhaps try a completely different list.

[Alex Holland]

I am horrified by a i think sub par razormane masticore/ ghost town combo. But if you insist on trying it at least play eternity vessel next to ghost town :laugh:

[Secretly.A.Bee]

When paired with Ugin, I don't see how Razormane is bad at all. 3 is fine, 6 is insane.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Michael Keller]

Jester's Cap, nice Mister. How was your list performing overall? Thats out-of-the-box. I can see the appeal of Ghost Town, did you have Crucible of Worlds? Also was it Razormane Masticore or just Masticore? The latter is currently on my list, but a 5/5 First Strike is just much more beefy.

Razormane Masticore; I run him as a two-of. Ghost Town also has other neat applications in the deck as well:

a.) I run Smokestacks in my list, so I'm able to use Ghost Town to recover from a situation where my board will be cleared with an opponent's board.
b.) Ghost Town can make Liliana less effective in protecting key spells. With a likely resurgence of BUG, it's a nice utility to consider.
c.) The obvious interaction to "Squee" it away with Razormane Masticore.
d.) Has the ability to protect itself against land destruction spells.
e.) Adds a layer of trickery based on the card's obscurity against turn-one Wasteland.
f.) Bounces back to your hand in the event you need mana to escape Rishadan Port shenanigans.

Jester's Cap is a one-of in my sideboard. It's a nice catch-all to cripple decks like the one I played locally. It's just a good card for what it does and can dynamically castrate an opponent's core engine. I can see it crippling 12-Post, as well.

[byes]

If you don't mind. What's your decklist like right now with the ghost towns and mastacore?

[Bobmans]

The other day i worked on the Cloudpost variant and gave it a spin instead of my ussual Turbo "all-in" Welder build. After i played a number of games against different decks (Punishing Maverick, Patriot, ANT, Reanimator) i decided i will stick with the list and tune it for a little bit. My main was 61 cards and my board was 16 cards. Actually i am torn with what to take out of the board to get down to 15 cards. Also i really like to put Ugin #3 in the main, but there is no room.

I tried Scarecrone and Razormane Masticore. I never got to see Razormane, so i will need more testing. But i imagine it being solid when resolved. Scarecrone was actually pretty much fun. Along with Lodestone Golem i was able to keep recur and block with the Golem and do some other cool trick. Also i resolved Ugin quite a few times and even resolved it T2 versus Punishing Maverick. How awesome was that. Aside from Pithing Needle it is near unstoppable. Also played against the nightmare matchup Patriot (with Stifle main) and after boarding in Revoker, Grid, Razormane and an extra Ugin i felt like it was grindy but pretty doable. All in all i was enjoying some solid games of Magic the Gathering.

Main:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Scarecrone
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard:
2 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Defense Grid
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Staff of Domination
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Trinisphere

[Alex Holland]

This is what i run now; very minor changes.

3 Thran Dynamo
4 Metalworker

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

2 Scroll Rack

4 lodestone golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Steel Hellkite
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves

2 buried ruin
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

Now i did had some CRAZY IDEAS, i just couldnt make them work. But maybe someone else can.

Since i played scroll rack and i liked it so much i went looking for cards that could go with it. I tried RED for his. RED gives acces to Bonfire of the Damned- a assymetrical board whipe aka finisher when you have a lot of post mana. Plus i figured chaos warp was a nice card. Not only is it instant removal for permanents-it can also cheat in ugin or big guys with scroll rack shenanigans. Anyway i couldnt get it going, but feel free to try.

[Bobmans]

This is what i run now; very minor changes.

3 Thran Dynamo
4 Metalworker

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

2 Scroll Rack

4 lodestone golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Steel Hellkite
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves

2 buried ruin
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

Now i did had some CRAZY IDEAS, i just couldnt make them work. But maybe someone else can.

Since i played scroll rack and i liked it so much i went looking for cards that could go with it. I tried RED for his. RED gives acces to Bonfire of the Damned- a assymetrical board whipe aka finisher when you have a lot of post mana. Plus i figured chaos warp was a nice card. Not only is it instant removal for permanents-it can also cheat in ugin or big guys with scroll rack shenanigans. Anyway i couldnt get it going, but feel free to try.
I see you have changed Scracrone's, probably for Buried Ruins. What was the reason for that change?

Although Bonfire shenanigans are cool along with scroll rack, i think that Ugin is good enough on its own. Probably would be Ugin nr 3 before running Bonfire.

I am interested with Chaos Warp. The problem is that you shuffle the deck before putting the top card into play. Because it is part of the spell resolving you cant interact with it. A card that basicly dies the same (without being able to shuffle away opponents cards on the field) is Temporal Aperture. That card used to be freaking hot in the times of Wildfire in standard. The excitement of every activation (sometimes even 2 or 3 due to Voltaic Key) it was amazing. Sometime you would just flip lands and sometimes bombs after bombs (Covetous Dragon, Wildfire, Phyrexian Colossus, etc). I will probably try one or two instead of the Scarecrone's. Problem is with flipping Chalice (cast for 0) and 24 lands makes it a bit cheesy. But on the other hand it can flip an Ugin for just 5 mana (7).

[Tourach]

In five months' time I might be playing MUD at GP Lille because I think it is well positioned against Miracles, combo and anything non-blue. I have started to ponder different lists: One of them is monobrown and rather similar to what others play, another one includes the colour red for Daretti and Welders. However, I feel that Welder and - similarly - Metalworker are always the most easily hated part of the deck with a close scond being the 10/11-Post manabase. I was asking myself how a MUD deck could do without either. More specifically I want to run the typical lockpieces (Chalice and 3sphere) and the midgame-bombs (Wurmcoil Engine, Steel Hellkite, Forgemaster, Sundering Titan) without being too susceptible to Wasteland and every creature removal in the format. I think it is possible with a red splash. And maybe someone else wants to join in brewing. This is what I started testing with.


4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Darksteel Citadel
10 Mountain

4 Mox Diamond
4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Blood Moon

3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

2 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Wildfire


The list might miss the mana of Cloudpost although I don't think so after initial testing. It certainly wants to run Voltaic Key but Chalice says no to that plan. The manabase is pretty close to what Kai Budde used during Worlds in 1999 and that's where the idea of using Wildfire comes from.

Things I would want to change if I saw how:

a) Reduce the number of lands: I would go to 22 or even as low as 20 if it wasn't for Mox Diamond. Maybe there is a way of substituting that?
b) Include Ugin: He might take the place of Sundering Titan or 1 Wildfire.
c) Include Voltaic Key: I don't see that due to Chalice.

Other than that, the deck runs the best lockpieces in Legacy, is full of bombs, has an engine in Daretti and can generate ridiculous amounts of mana relatively unmolested. Tell me what you think about a Wildfire-version of MUD (if that is still MUD).

[porcupinetreeman]

In five months' time I might be playing MUD at GP Lille because I think it is well positioned against Miracles, combo and anything non-blue. I have started to ponder different lists: One of them is monobrown and rather similar to what others play, another one includes the colour red for Daretti and Welders. However, I feel that Welder and - similarly - Metalworker are always the most easily hated part of the deck with a close scond being the 10/11-Post manabase. I was asking myself how a MUD deck could do without either. More specifically I want to run the typical lockpieces (Chalice and 3sphere) and the midgame-bombs (Wurmcoil Engine, Steel Hellkite, Forgemaster, Sundering Titan) without being too susceptible to Wasteland and every creature removal in the format. I think it is possible with a red splash. And maybe someone else wants to join in brewing. This is what I started testing with.


4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Darksteel Citadel
10 Mountain

4 Mox Diamond
4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Blood Moon

3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

2 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Wildfire


The list might miss the mana of Cloudpost although I don't think so after initial testing. It certainly wants to run Voltaic Key but Chalice says no to that plan. The manabase is pretty close to what Kai Budde used during Worlds in 1999 and that's where the idea of using Wildfire comes from.

Things I would want to change if I saw how:

a) Reduce the number of lands: I would go to 22 or even as low as 20 if it wasn't for Mox Diamond. Maybe there is a way of substituting that?
b) Include Ugin: He might take the place of Sundering Titan or 1 Wildfire.
c) Include Voltaic Key: I don't see that due to Chalice.

Other than that, the deck runs the best lockpieces in Legacy, is full of bombs, has an engine in Daretti and can generate ridiculous amounts of mana relatively unmolested. Tell me what you think about a Wildfire-version of MUD (if that is still MUD).

Darksteel Citadel and Burning of Xinye are pretty good together

[LOLWut]

Shiit, two MUDs in the Top 16 of SCG Houston tonight, both with Ugin, one with playsets of Painter's Servant and Grindstone.

[H]

My friend was the other, the one without the Painters. He's been playing MUD for a while, but with Ugin he decided to concentrate on it.

He had a pretty insane game 3 versus Elves where he had a Platinum Emperor versus about 25 eleves, a Progenitus and a Runric Thar. Apparently the Elf player didn't feel like running Reclamation Sage was good. Go figure. So after a while my friend was able to Steel Hellkite off a Forgemaster.

I know he lost to Travis on Death and Taxes (who top 8ed) where he ultimated Ugin in a game, but drew no threats and lost. I forgot what else he lost to, I'll ask him later in the week, but I think is was a BUG deck of some kind, probably BUG Delver.

[Bobmans]

Shiit, two MUDs in the Top 16 of SCG Houston tonight, both with Ugin, one with playsets of Painter's Servant and Grindstone.
Painter Servant and Ugin's -X ability is pretty funny. But it can also whipes your own board. So far i did not feel it necessary to also remove non coloured permanents.

Ugin does what MUD was missing.

[testing32]

My friend was the other, the one without the Painters. He's been playing MUD for a while, but with Ugin he decided to concentrate on it.

He had a pretty insane game 3 versus Elves where he had a Platinum Emperor versus about 25 eleves, a Progenitus and a Runric Thar. Apparently the Elf player didn't feel like running Reclamation Sage was good. Go figure. So after a while my friend was able to Steel Hellkite off a Forgemaster.

I know he lost to Travis on Death and Taxes (who top 8ed) where he ultimated Ugin in a game, but drew no threats and lost. I forgot what else he lost to, I'll ask him later in the week, but I think is was a BUG deck of some kind, probably BUG Delver.

Any chance we could get his thoughts on how deck felt, what was good, bad and what changes if any he would make? Feedback like that is invaluable.

[H]

Any chance we could get his thoughts on how deck felt, what was good, bad and what changes if any he would make? Feedback like that is invaluable.

I don't know off-hand if he has an account here, but I can ask him if he wouldn't mind joining and posting. He was sleeping almost the whole ride back from Houston (lucky...). I'll try to get a hold of him this week, or at worst, talk to him at FNM about it.

[Alex Holland]

Painter servant seems worse then normal painter servant. But at least you dont need no recruiters :p

Seriously grindstone mud has been tried in the past. I tried it too! The biggest problem is you cannot play chalice on 1 wich was and still is one of the core plays of MUD against everything.
If i would play grindstone in MUD i would add 4 goblin welder and 4 gamble :laugh: maybe some divining top too!

Im really frustrated with post-mana right now, i played against a CloudPost deck and every land i dropped helped him to get mana for eldrazi quicker! Still its better then normal lands in MUD.

[Mockingbird]

So, this weird thing happened: Someone pulled off MUD-Post Painter in today's IQ.

14th Place (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=80080)

Also, on its coat tails in 15th Place, Red MUD:

15th Place (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=80069)

Things I've noticed:

Ugin and Karn both make a tag team appearance within both 75's.
The 4 Trinisphere, 4 Chalice Mainboard rule was twisted by both decks.
No Daretti or Goblin Welder in the Red MUD.

This feels... strange. I like both decks though. Especially since I've been playing a lot of modern and can attest to the power of colorless planeswalkers.

[kaishi]

I played at SCG IQ Houston playing MUD. I was the player without Painter/Stone in the deck. My list is as follows:

Main Deck:
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Voltaic Key
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Mox Opal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Great Furnace
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
2 Karn Liberated
2 Spellskite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Blood Moon
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Staff of Nin



The Legacy Challenge event the night before the IQ was the first time (aside from the FNM the night before) I tried Ugin in my build. Previously, the two spots were taken by Daretti and Sundering Titan.

Some interesting decisions I made as far as my build goes:

Daretti -- I haven't had great testing with this card. Honestly, I haven't tried him much, so I probably made an unfair evaluation. I don't want my MB relying on red mana. I actually until the last month ran blue for Academy Ruins, which I never used in several months of playing (it was only one).

Goblin Welder -- As I said earlier, I don't want my MB relying on red. I had two SB in place of Cage at one point. The problem is that it's so vulnerable to everything. I've been blown out by Punishing Fire, Bolt, StP, Terminus, PtE, Decay, etc., so many times with it that I don't think it's well-placed in most matches. At best I can equip Greaves and start doing silly things. If I don't have a Greaves, though, I'm never able to utilize him.

Blood Moon -- This is actually the only reason that red is in the deck. I wanted it primarily for my BUG match. I found that their mana base is very fragile, but mine can be more so because they have DRS. Wasteland becomes my bane while they just play one-mana spells. I wanted to try it for the IQ, so I put it in the deck kinda last-minute. It was great against BUG, and it also locked RUG out at the FNM prior to the IQ. Overall I'm happy with it. It can take out Infect and Lands and some other matches as well.

Pithing Needle -- I previously ran Revoker. The problem is that Revoker can't stop Lands decks from mowing you early, and it can get removed more easily against Stoneforge and Miracles decks. I figured that getting to keep my Needle after a Terminus is extraordinarily relevant. Chalice at 1 stops me from playing the Needle, yes, but I don't mind the dead card. Against Sneak & Show, I don't even need to play it. Plus I don't think basing my entire play strategy around one card in the deck is where I want to be. I have actually used this in the same way that 12-Post does--by naming Wasteland in order to protect my assets.

Trinisphere -- This card is terrible for me. With Wasteland everywhere, I often find that it locks me as much as my opponent. Plus the advent of Delve has make it a bit worse. Murderous Cut and Dig Through Time are still playable, and players still get full value out of Stoneforge Mystic.

Karn Liberated -- This has been in my SB since I built the deck. I should have had it MD previously, I think, but I decided to keep it SB right now. He seals away really grindy matchups. Lands, Miracles, Show & Tell, and Reanimator are usually what he sees play against. Basically any non-hyper-aggressive matches like Burn, Elves, etc. Now, though, Ugin is too good to have Karn MD.

Grafdigger's Cage -- I have this in the deck with the same justification as Pithing Needle. The main reason I run this is Elves. Their GSZ and Natural Order pull way too far ahead of me. It is a Forgemaster target to stop them from killing me outright. Reclamation Sage is actually worse than getting Hoofed. It just feels so bad when there's a Wirewood Symbiote in play. Plus if I need to tutor a creature, it becomes fodder to my Forgemaster.

Ugin -- This card is insane. During the Legacy Challenge, I ultimated Ugin about 6 times. I never even used his second ability. I even got to play it turn 2 multiple times since I put it in at FNM. He's a permanent Lightning Bolt, board wipe, and Eureka. I was tempted to run more.

Staff of Nin -- I put this in my SB for Infect, BUG, and Jund. It gets card advantage after getting my hand shredded, and it deals with Delvers and Infect dudes before they become a problem.



Anyway, I'll go into some detail about some of the matches I played. I'm going to be honest here--several people I played against at some point said the words "I've seen this deck online, but I've never seen it played. I didn't know what it did exactly." I can probably attribute quite a bit of my success to obscurity factor. Anyway, I'm going to include my four rounds at the Legacy Challenge just for the sake of diversity in opponents, and I apologize if I mix up details--most of what I remember of that day was granola bars and the coffee shop not opening until 9.

LC1:
Round 1 of the Legacy Challenge was against Infect. This matchup is highly favored by me as long as they don't open up on the perfect hand.
Game 1: I played Chalice at 1 on turn 1. He played a Polluted Delta. I followed up with Monolith to Lodestone Golem. It resolved. He played another Delta. Then I played another Lodestone Golem. He played a Misty Rainforest, and I closed the game without knowing what he was playing.
Game 2: He opened with Gitaxian Probe and Inkmoth Nexus. I was a bit nervous, but I sided in Pithing Needle and Spellskite in place of an Opal and Wurmcoils. I figured he was on Infect or Show & Tell (or some other combo). I was leaning heavily toward Show & Tell. I did not bring in Blood Moon just in case he was playing Show & Tell. I figured an unknown match is not worth risky sideboarding. I played a Chalice at 1 and passed. He fetched and hit me for 1 Poison. I followed up with Forgemaster. He finished me with double Invigorate.
Game 3: I played Monolith into Key turn 1. He played Hierarch. I played Ugin turn 2 and bolted his Hierarch. He played a Nexus and passed. I bolted with Ugin and played a Wasteland. I ultimated Ugin the next turn and dropped Lodestone, Greaves, Blighsteel, Wasteland. That was game.

Overall, the matchup versus Infect is shaky, I think. At no point did I feel comfortable while simultaneously knowing what he was playing. Lodestone Golem makes the match very secure since they rely heavily upon a small mana base and many "cheat" spells such as Invigorate. Chalice is an MVP since it locks their cantrips, Vines, Berserk, Hierarch, and Glistener. I played against Infect in the IQ the next day and had similar results. The beauty of the match is that I don't care about my life total. I used Tombs happily. After game 2, I sided out Spine of Ish Sah and Platinum Emperion for two Blood Moon. I sided out the Steel Hellkite for my Mox that I sided out after Game 1. Ugin and Wasteland deserve great mention here since Ugin just kills every creature except Inkmoth, and Wasteland kills that. MUD just has a lot of native problem cards for Infect.



LC2:
Round 2 of the Legacy Challenge was against BUG Delver. You'll have to forgive me if my round pairings are out of order. The BUG player is a friend of mine, and he's a tough matchup for me. I don't particularly remember the details of the matchup. I'll go into more about BUG with the game I played against it in the IQ since I remember more details there.



LC3:
Round 3 of the Legacy Challenge was against Miracles. This is a matchup that I feel much more comfortable with now.
Game 1: I played Chalice at 1. I cast Forgemaster on Turn 2. He countered it. Turn 3, I cast Ugin. I ultimated him and won the game by dropping multiple Lodestones off of that.
Game 2: I sided in Karns and Needles over Wurmcoil, Opal, and Hellkite. I needled his Top on turn 1, and I followed up with Opal and Monolith turn 2. Played Ugin again. Basically the same happened this game.

This match is fairly good. They have a ton of cantrips, top, and swords. The good thing is that the Counterbalance loses value since MUD's mana curve is fairly difficult to consistently answer. It can still get ugly since they have so many counters. Cavern of Souls helps of course. Overall, I find that Miracles is one of my best blue matchups. I put Needle in my SB in order to stop JtMS and Top. If they can't get card advantage, you are safe.



LC4:
Round 4 of the Legacy Challenge was against a strange Junk deck. He was running a Living Wish package with Qasali Pridemage.
Game 1: I played a Monolith turn 1, and he played DRS. I dropped Metalworker turn 2. He cast Living Wish for Pridemage. I followed up by dropping Forgemaster and another artifact (I don't remember which). He killed my Forgemaster, and I drew Ugin. That was pretty much game.
Game 2: He did the same turn 1, and I opened up on Greaves. I don't particularly remember the next sequences, but I believe he had no removal for Worker/Staff.

I'm not sure exactly what his list was. He was running SFM package, I believe, but I didn't see much aside from value creatures with a Wish package. I didn't take this as some sign that I was running a great deck.



IQ1:
Round 1 of the IQ was against BUG Delver. I'm going to be honest here. I should not have lost this match. I lost to my own mistakes--I blame terrible sleep the night before and some excitability at the beginning of the event.
Game 1: I am on the draw. He begins with DRS. I play a Citadel and Key. He plays Delver and passes. I don't believe he made a second land drop. I played a Furnace. Here's where I derped. I had Opal in hand. Rather than playing it first, I threw out Monolith into a Daze. I got stuck on 2 mana the rest of the game--drew no more lands as DRS and Delver started just swinging at me.
Game 2: I sideboarded in Blood Moon, Wurmcoil, and Needle in place of 2 Worker, Spine, Staff, and Key. I played Monolith turn 1. He played Delver. Turn 2, I derped hard. I had Mox Diamond and Great Furnace in hand. Rather than playing the Mox, I played the Furnace for some reason. I resolved a Lodestone Golem. He untapped and wasted my Furnace. On the next turn, I drew Blood Moon. I would have locked him out of the game with that draw had I played the Mox.

I have a lot of experience with this match, and that experience tells me that BUG is dangerous. Not only do they have insanely efficient creatures like DRS, Delver, and Goyf, but the deck also runs Abrupt Decay, Liliana, Hymn, and Thoughtseize. All of these are terrible news for me. It's also worth mentioning that Null Rod is a huge problem. Ugin is extremely good in this match, I believe, since their only way to win is with low-cost creatures. It also puts you far ahead since the deck has no way to deal with him as far as I've seen. Other possible problem cards are Grafdigger's Cage and Krosan Grip. Needle is an absolute must in this deck due to DRS, Wasteland, and Liliana. Now the interesting thing I experienced in Game 2 was Murderous Cut. Delve gets around every bit of lock I have. It's not a 1-drop, delves an extra card vs Lodestone, and it ignores Trinisphere (which I cut long ago).



IQ2:
Round 2 of the IQ was against Worldgorger Combo. I don't think there's much value in going into detail about this match. My opponent admitted that the deck was a bit experimental.
Game 1: My turn 1 was Greaves, I think. His was discarding Worldgroger EoT. I played Chalice at 2 to stop Animate Dead, and he was locked out of the game.
Game 2: I played Chalice at 1, and he cast Entomb in response. I was a bit nervous, but he didn't combo. I played Forgemaster off two sol lands and mox. Once it came back to me, I was able to Forgemaster for Cage after that, so he was locked out of the game.



IQ3:
Round 3 of the IQ was against Jund. This was another weird matchup.
Game 1: He played DRS turn 1 and passed. I played Greaves. He followed up with Bob. I played Worker into Wurmcoil. He couldn't race me.
Game 2: I sided in Spellskite, Wurmcoil, and Needle in place of Spine, Staff, a Worker, and Chalice. He opened with DRS again. I played Monolith, Key, Worker. He bolted my Worker and played Bob. Next I played Forgemaster. He plays Bloodbraid into a Courser of Kruphix. This was a weird card to include against me, but I figured he was hoping for a grindy game. The top card of his library was a Strangleroot Geist. I've never seen the card played in Legacy, but I didn't ask. I played Ugin, wiped the board and Blightsteeled next turn.

I'm not sure what this build was, but Jund is normally one of my absolute worst matchups. Punishing Fire, Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt, Liliana, Thoughtseize, Pulse, and Hymn are savage. Generally my hope is that they don't come flying out the gate with removal, and I can stick Wurmcoil or Forgemaster for at least a turn. I actually considered boarding in Blood Moon because it would turn off Decay, Liliana, etc. The problem is that any good player will fetch basics early. DRS makes their colors easy to fix as well. The sad part is that Chalice is even pretty bad. Tasigur isn't hit by it, and Abrupt Decay frees them up. This is hands-down my worst match, I think.



IQ4:
Round 4 of the IQ was against Death & Taxes. Cool guy. Good player. Completely killed me.
Game 1: I don't remember much of Game 1, but he locked my mana down and just won.
Game 2: I managed to squeeze a win. He didn't get a Vial.
Game 3: The highlight of that game was that he had me on the ropes until I resolved an Ensnaring Bridge. I ultimated Ugin and whiffed. Drew 2 Metalworkers, Needle, Forgemaster, and three lands. Played them in order to keep Bridge active. Next turn I played Karn and exiled his Revoker on my Forgemaster. He pathed my Forgemaster in response and bounced his Thalia with Karakas EoT. Then on his turn, he cast Cataclysm. I was done.

I think I got Games 1 and 2 mixed up? I forget the exact details, but this match is a difficult one. MD revoker and SB needle pretty much shuts me down. Flickerwisp and Swords answer a lot of my threats. Vial gets through Chalice at instant speed. I don't particularly have a plan against this deck. I side in Needles, Bridge, Karn, and Staff of Nin.



IQ5:
Round 5 of the IQ was against Sneak & Show.
Game 1: I played an early Chalice at 1 and Lodestone Golem. Killed him the turn after he cast Sneak Attack with no mana to activate.
Game 2: I derped and cast Pithing Needle on turn 1. He forced. Okay, I'm an idiot. I managed to get out Forgemaster and Worker. Turn 3, he cast Show & Tell into Sneak Attack. Plays Petal and hits me with Emrakul. I'm left with Forgemaster. I play a Furnace and pass. He hits me with Emrakul again.
Game 3: I came out of the gate extremely fast with Ugin and Lodestone. He played Show & Tell, and I dropped Needle. He dropped Griselbrand. I played Spine and went in for lethal.

Sneak & Show is shaky game 1. If I don't resolve a lock piece and act quickly, they can just kill me with Sneak Attack. The good news is that Show & Tell can benefit me a lot, so they sometimes only have the option to Sneak Attack, as summoning sickness is very relevant. Game 2 I have Needle, Karn, and Bridge. I don't think there's much to say here. The opponent's strategy makes mine better in quite a few cases. I just go as quickly as possible.



IQ6:
Round 6 of the IQ was against BUG again, if I remember correctly. This match was much more successful.
Game 1: He hymned me and didn't hit anything major. I rushed out a Metalworker into Wurmcoil with a Cavern.
Game 2: I cast Blood Moon on turn 1 off the top after a Thoughtseize. That was game.



IQ7:
Round 7 of the IQ was against Elves.
Game 1: He played Deathrite. I played Monolith, Key, Monolith, Forgemaster.
Game 2: He thoughtseized my Monolith, and I didn't draw enough mana after that. Killed me quickly with a few elves swinging.
Game 3: This was the stranges game I've ever played versus Elves. He thoughtseized me turn 1 and 2, taking two Lodestone Golems. I played a Greaves. He played some elves, and I played Forgemaster and equipped it. He started to draw lots of cards with Symbiote and Visionary but didn't find a NO or GSZ. I played Bridge and sunk into my seat for the long game. Dropped as many artifacts as I could for Forgemaster fodder (I had Master, 2 Greaves, and Bridge in play). He hardcasts a Progenitus with all of his mana after a few turns of durdling. I was drawing tons of mana. I activated Forgemaster to get my Hellkite to start ending the game before he could get to a Reclamation Sage. Then I remembered the Bridge in play, so I grabbed Emperion. The game went another 25-ish minutes like this. I was facing down over 20 elves and Progenitus with nothing to do but draw cards. I Forgemaster again later for Staff of Domination. He abrupt decays it after the first activation. Sad day. After a few turns, he stopped drawing with Visionary. He casts GSZ, and I was ready to pick my cards up. But he casts it for 6 and grabs Ruric Thar. The slow realization came to me that this guy didn't have Reclamation Sage in his 75... I sacrificed the Bridge and got my Hellkite. Killed his team with Ugin + Hellkite the next turn and then killed his Progenitus the next.

Normally, Elves is a horrible matchup because it just wins randomly on turn 3 or so. It also gets the fun interaction of Reclamation Sage + Symbiote. I debated adding Torpor Orb for this match, and I'm still very tempted. I settled for Cage for now. Abrupt Decay is a difficult card to deal with either way. Plus Therapy and Thoughtseize. Chalice is an absolute must, but that doesn't always save you due to GSZ and NO just killing you randomly.



IQ8:
Round 8 of the IQ was against Infect, piloted by a guy I know locally.
Game 1: He couldn't work through Chalice at 1 and at 3. I made sure to stop Invigorate from giving me trouble.
Game 2: Basically the same thing happened. Lodestone locked and was really explosive with Monolith.

I like my match against Infect. As I said previously, Tomb becomes the best card ever. He also got mana screwed, and I happened to draw very well for the matchup. Again, though, I have a lot of coincidental great cards against the deck.




Hope this gives you some insight? I'm willing to go into more detail on specific things if necessary.

[dcosiem]

Alright boys and girls. I need some critique on my deck build. I'm literally undefeated with this Mud deck build I've tinkered up. The only bad match up this deck has is itself, meaning if i mull to 0, I will lose. So here's the list. I really think it is strong. Someone please try it out, and tell me your thoughts.

4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Staff of Nin
1 Staff of Domination
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Wasteland
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Platinum Angel
1 Steel Hellkite
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Lightning Greaves
SB: 1 Witchbane Orb
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Culling Scales
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Silent Arbiter
SB: 1 Razormane Masticore

[Alex Holland]

Alright boys and girls. I need some critique on my deck build. I'm literally undefeated with this Mud deck build I've tinkered up. The only bad match up this deck has is itself, meaning if i mull to 0, I will lose. So here's the list. I really think it is strong. Someone please try it out, and tell me your thoughts.


Dude.. 4 vesuva is just bad. the change of getting 2 in your opening hand screwing your hand is to big. I think the right number is 2 to minimise the risk. Copying anything else then post lands is mostly a waste with the tapped into play thing.

Also you have too many 1 offs for my liking, if you dont get to forgemaster for them its just totally random. I always play 3-4 wurmcoil because its a card i always love (unless stp).
Also check out scroll rack! its a nice card in your opening hand because it safes a mull if you can tuck away the bad and get the good and late game it helps finding a win con in those loooong grindy matches.

[Alex Holland]

Hope this gives you some insight? I'm willing to go into more detail on specific things if necessary.


Interested in the 2 mox opal, 1 mox diamond.

I like mox diamond because it can help tuck away a excess vesuva or city of traitors plus gives some acceleration early on. How did the mox opals feel? Any reason for the 2 and 1?

[dcosiem]

Dude.. 4 vesuva is just bad. the change of getting 2 in your opening hand screwing your hand is to big. I think the right number is 2 to minimise the risk. Copying anything else then post lands is mostly a waste with the tapped into play thing.

Also you have too many 1 offs for my liking, if you dont get to forgemaster for them its just totally random. I always play 3-4 wurmcoil because its a card i always love (unless stp).
Also check out scroll rack! its a nice card in your opening hand because it safes a mull if you can tuck away the bad and get the good and late game it helps finding a win con in those loooong grindy matches.

I like to maximize Cloudposts abilities I guess. I rarely get Vesuvas in openers that don't do anything. But I do agree with you there. I don't like the many 1 offs, but they do limit my probability to lose from a lot of angles. Consistency matters, but lately I've been losing to Tier decks every time I play 3 or more Wurmcoil Engines in my deck. True Name Nemesis can deal with him sadly enough.

The thing about playing scroll rack in this deck is how do you deal with deck manipulation? How do you remove bad cards?

[kaishi]

Interested in the 2 mox opal, 1 mox diamond.

I like mox diamond because it can help tuck away a excess vesuva or city of traitors plus gives some acceleration early on. How did the mox opals feel? Any reason for the 2 and 1?

I decided on 2 Opal because I used to have the opposite configuration, and I didn't like the reliance upon lands in my hand. I found it clunky when I have sol land, single mana land, diamond. Opal gives me some extra reach since I have artifact lands and cheap enabler/lock artifacts to play early. It can make my turn 2 citadel still net me two mana.

As far as why 3 moxen, I used to run 2 with 23 lands. I found that my opening hands were less reliable with that many one-mana lands.

If I were playing the post build, I would not run opal due to the lack of artifact lands. As it stands I find Forgemaster is better in the nonpost build since your artifact lands fuel it. Same justification for running the moxen.

[Alex Holland]

I decided on 2 Opal because I used to have the opposite configuration, and I didn't like the reliance upon lands in my hand. I found it clunky when I have sol land, single mana land, diamond. Opal gives me some extra reach since I have artifact lands and cheap enabler/lock artifacts to play early. It can make my turn 2 citadel still net me two mana.

As far as why 3 moxen, I used to run 2 with 23 lands. I found that my opening hands were less reliable with that many one-mana lands.

If I were playing the post build, I would not run opal due to the lack of artifact lands. As it stands I find Forgemaster is better in the nonpost build since your artifact lands fuel it. Same justification for running the moxen.

Ok all true. But furnace just for the sideboard moons seems a little meh. Forgemaster needs to eat to work, thats is one of the reasons i play mishra's factory. It can be sacced to forgemaster when needed, and a 3/3 blocker is something a lot of decks dont like early game.

I think i ll try a mox diamond sometimes, to get rid of either excess city of traitors or vesuvas i dont want.

[kaishi]

Ok all true. But furnace just for the sideboard moons seems a little meh. Forgemaster needs to eat to work, thats is one of the reasons i play mishra's factory. It can be sacced to forgemaster when needed, and a 3/3 blocker is something a lot of decks dont like early game.

I think i ll try a mox diamond sometimes, to get rid of either excess city of traitors or vesuvas i dont want.

I have tried factory in the past with good results. I run the artifact lands over it because it also feeds worker. I'm actually considering cutting my wasteland count to 2 and my cavern count to 3 for 3 factories.

[Jakobian]

Hello again fellow MUDslingers, I recently got 4th out of 67 at the MTGDeals winter open in southern California. Here's the list I was playing:

4 wasteland
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 vesuva
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb


4 metalworker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 wurmcoil engine
1 sundering titan
1 platinum angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon


4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning greaves
1 spine of ish sah
2 staff of domination


Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
1 Batterskull
1 Trading Post
1 Ratchet bomb
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
1 Sundering Titan
2 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Witchbane Orb
3 Tormod's Crypt

Matches were (in order)
Round 1: Dredge (2-1)
Round 2: Miracles (2-1)
Round 3: Miracles (2-1)
Round 4: Imperial Painter (0-2)
Round 5: Elves (2-1)
Round 6: Junk Loam (1-2)
Round 7: Miracles (2-0)
Top8: Grixis young pyromancer (piloted by Vidianto Wijaya) (2-1)
Top4: Junk Loam (same guy I played in the swiss rounds) (1-2)

I walked away with an FNM promo swords to plowshares for my troubles.

Some notes: 1 Ugin in the main feels correct. He can win games when you are behind, and he can lock everything down when you're ahead. I don't know if I'd want 2 in the main, but he's definitely cemented a slot in the 75. My previous MUD lists ran All is Dust, and Ugin basically just replaced that card because he does the same thing, except he sticks around and does more too.

I didn't like trading post in the sideboard, it was my first time trying it out and I never activated it, and only sideboarded it in a couple times.

I am, and always will be a huge fan of Platinum Angel in the mainboard. The angel can fly over true-name nemesis and can kill delvers as well as saving your butt. Some decks just auto-scoop to a platinum angel equipped with lightning greaves.

[Alex Holland]

Hello again fellow MUDslingers, I recently got 4th out of 67 at the MTGDeals winter open in southern California. Here's the list I was playing:

4 wasteland
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 vesuva
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb


4 metalworker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 wurmcoil engine
1 sundering titan
1 platinum angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon


4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning greaves
1 spine of ish sah
2 staff of domination


Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
1 Batterskull
1 Trading Post
1 Ratchet bomb
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
1 Sundering Titan
2 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Witchbane Orb
3 Tormod's Crypt

Matches were (in order)
Round 1: Dredge (2-1)
Round 2: Miracles (2-1)
Round 3: Miracles (2-1)
Round 4: Imperial Painter (0-2)
Round 5: Elves (2-1)
Round 6: Junk Loam (1-2)
Round 7: Miracles (2-0)
Top8: Grixis young pyromancer (piloted by Vidianto Wijaya) (2-1)
Top4: Junk Loam (same guy I played in the swiss rounds) (1-2)

I walked away with an FNM promo swords to plowshares for my troubles.

Some notes: 1 Ugin in the main feels correct. He can win games when you are behind, and he can lock everything down when you're ahead. I don't know if I'd want 2 in the main, but he's definitely cemented a slot in the 75. My previous MUD lists ran All is Dust, and Ugin basically just replaced that card because he does the same thing, except he sticks around and does more too.

I didn't like trading post in the sideboard, it was my first time trying it out and I never activated it, and only sideboarded it in a couple times.

I am, and always will be a huge fan of Platinum Angel in the mainboard. The angel can fly over true-name nemesis and can kill delvers as well as saving your butt. Some decks just auto-scoop to a platinum angel equipped with lightning greaves.


4 vesuvas didnt bother you?
2 staff of domination ---- do you feel its better / more useful with a post mana base?

----

I had a dream last night it involved cutting 4 chalice for 4 defense grid!!!!!!!

A instant isnt really interesting if its a sorcerey- plus maybe 3-4 greaves and sorceries dont matter at all because you still can activate your metalworker or kuldotha safely. Plus your counter care free with essentialy 8 trinisphere like effects on the defense. Plus you can go play 1 mana cards again (interested in pithing needle, the untap artifact, expedition map and senseis top) Im gonna try it! :eek:

[(nameless one)]

Hey guys,

I have awfully been quiet from this thread. I am planning on updating the primer but I have little material since I haven't really played Legacy in almost a year now.

I was going to do specific matchups but life caught up with me. I am looking for help with matchup analysis between archetypes with 12 post, old school and welder/daretti/moon versions. Also, is the old school (use sol lands+utility lands+mana artifacts) dead in favor of the 12post builds? Also, why isn't Daretti making a splash on the thread. I remember seeing a Daretti Stax deck but it wasn't here on the Source.

I think with the banning of Treasure Cruise, the format will resort back to the midrange meta with splashes of elves and storm-based combo.

Also, I noticed that Hollywood has been posting here. I was a big fan of what he did with Dredge/Manaless Dredge and I am looking forward on his contributions here. While we're on that topic, should there be a separate thread for Welder Builds and Mono-Brown? I find that Welder builds are combo/synergy oriented where as Mono-Brown tends to be brute force with resistor protection.

Anything you guys want to add? Also thanks Alex Holland and Bobmans for keeping the thread alive.

[Alex Holland]

4
I had a dream last night it involved cutting 4 chalice for 4 defense grid!!!!!!!

A instant isnt really interesting if its a sorcerey- plus maybe 3-4 greaves and sorceries dont matter at all because you still can activate your metalworker or kuldotha safely. Plus your counter care free with essentialy 8 trinisphere like effects on the defense. Plus you can go play 1 mana cards again (interested in pithing needle, the untap artifact, expedition map and senseis top) Im gonna try it! :eek:

Welcome back NAmeless One, we can use some fresh input in MUD!

Something like this maybe?

4x cloudpost
4x glimmerpost
3x vesuva
4x ancient tomb
4x city of traitors
4x mishra's factory
1x eye of ugin

2x scroll rack (aaah its so nice)
3x expedition map
2x candelabra of tawnos
3x lightning greaves
1x staff of domination
4x trinisphere
4x defense grid

3x ugin, spirit dragon

4x metalworker
3x kuldotha
4x wurmcoil engine
1x emrakul, aeons thorn
1x steel hellkite
1x blightsteel collosus

[bobomb]

Here's what i'm running currently:

Main:

4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Scuttling Doom Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Spine of Ish Sah
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tangle Wire
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lotus Petal
2 Lightning Greaves
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Ugin, Spirit Dragon

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnace
4 Darksteel Citadel

SB:
2 Spellskite
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Trinisphere
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Sundering Titan
1 Staff of Domination
1 Platinum Emperium
1 Mindslaver



Any thoughts?

[Fry]

Here's the list I intend to run this weekend:

Main:
4x Daretti, Scrap Savant
1x Blightsteel Colossus
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
2x Lightning Greaves
4x Kuldothat Forgemaster
4x Metalworker
1x Mindslaver
1x Myr Battlespher
1x Platinum Angel
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Sundering Titan
1x Thousand-Year Elixer
4x Trinishpere
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3x Wurmcoil Engine

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
3x Darksteel Citadel
4x Great Furnace
2x Mountain

Side:
3x Whipflare
1x Ensnaring Bride
2x Jester's Cap
1x Platinum Emperion
2x Spellskite
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
3x Torpor's Orb (Defense Grid if I get 2x more)

[Bobmans]

Hey guys,

I have awfully been quiet from this thread. I am planning on updating the primer but I have little material since I haven't really played Legacy in almost a year now.

I was going to do specific matchups but life caught up with me. I am looking for help with matchup analysis between archetypes with 12 post, old school and welder/daretti/moon versions. Also, is the old school (use sol lands+utility lands+mana artifacts) dead in favor of the 12post builds? Also, why isn't Daretti making a splash on the thread. I remember seeing a Daretti Stax deck but it wasn't here on the Source.

I think with the banning of Treasure Cruise, the format will resort back to the midrange meta with splashes of elves and storm-based combo.

Also, I noticed that Hollywood has been posting here. I was a big fan of what he did with Dredge/Manaless Dredge and I am looking forward on his contributions here. While we're on that topic, should there be a separate thread for Welder Builds and Mono-Brown? I find that Welder builds are combo/synergy oriented where as Mono-Brown tends to be brute force with resistor protection.

Anything you guys want to add? Also thanks Alex Holland and Bobmans for keeping the thread alive.

Welcome back and good to hear you want to put effort in updating the Primer. I would be glad to be of some assistance. MUD will always have a special place for me. Can you PM me with the information you are seeking and how you would like to receive it. Coming period i will seek some time to put some effort in writing down material for the Primer.

First of i would like to add that i personally dont think there should be seperate threads for Welder/Cloudpost. Also i invest a lot of time in playing NicFit and i really like that within NicFit the variarity of the builds add some nice thouch into the discussion in that thread and that it keeps the thread more than alive. Also the heart of the lists remain the same and sharing info for the one list could also help adept to other. MUD is in a good place now that the pace of the meta is slowing down plus Ugin really helps making MUD stronger. Also Daretti will get a spot maindeck after i (self) evaluated the Turbo Welder list i played at a small tournament replacing Sensei's Diving Top (making it Turbo Weldaretti...). But i do agree that Welder is typically far more combo orientated then the more controllish Cloudpost variant. Both have its marits and i guess we could call it a meta choice. I found the Welder build very strong versus combo (except S&T based decks) and slower decks, while the Cloudpost variant (with Defense Grids in the board) did a lot better versus Delver based decks in my latest testing.


4 vesuvas didnt bother you?
2 staff of domination ---- do you feel its better / more useful with a post mana base?

----

I had a dream last night it involved cutting 4 chalice for 4 defense grid!!!!!!!

A instant isnt really interesting if its a sorcerey- plus maybe 3-4 greaves and sorceries dont matter at all because you still can activate your metalworker or kuldotha safely. Plus your counter care free with essentialy 8 trinisphere like effects on the defense. Plus you can go play 1 mana cards again (interested in pithing needle, the untap artifact, expedition map and senseis top) Im gonna try it! :eek:

Vesuva can also copy your opponents lands, but then they are still slow and holding 2 Vesuva's or 1 Vesuva and 1 City of traitors is really akward. Making the wrong call based on the rest of your hand to mulligan or not can cost you a game. And MUD tends to mulligan really bad.

Defense Grids main could work and random steal games vs blue decks. I think if there are lot of blue decks in the meta it is a very nice call. Also i think that in combination with 3Sphere, Sundering Titan, Wasteland (supported by Vesuva) and Crucible of Worlds is killing with lot of decks depending on 3 colours (and 0 basics). BUT if you have a combo heavy meta (or a total random meta) it can be dangerous and cost you games.

I really like the idea of Candalebra and Expedition Map along with Emrakul/Eye of Ugin. Eye can also fetch artifact creatures which is a solid plus.

[mgoldman]

New MUD player here. I'd love to see some sideboard plans with explanations for which cards to take in and out for various matchups. I've played it twice at a local store going 4-0 the first time and 2-1-1 the next. Here's my current list, which is based on the list that top 8'd the NJ GP.

24 LANDS
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Vesuva
2 Wasteland

19 CREATURES
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
2 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Angel
17 OTHER SPELLS
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
2 Lightning Greaves
1 voltaic key

SIDEBOARD
1 pithing needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 wurcoil engine
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 grafdigger's cage
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 ?

I'm also going to give that grindstone/painter servant list a try too since I have the cards.

[Silverflame]

I played at SCG IQ Houston playing MUD. I was the player without Painter/Stone in the deck. My list is as follows:

Main Deck:
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Voltaic Key
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Mox Opal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Great Furnace
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
2 Karn Liberated
2 Spellskite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Blood Moon
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Staff of Nin



Thank you for the report kaishi, it was very insightful. I agree that cutting trinisphere can make the deck less clunky and I always wanted to make a list without it (but with no success), mostly to bring voltaic key back and avoid self locking. Ugin's printing made it possible and I think your deck is pretty much where the deck is supposed to go. I gonna test your build as soon as I get the cards I'm missing.

I play with a colorless post build, and gonna start using ugin. Do you have any tips on how to deploy it faster without moxen?

[Bobmans]

Thank you for the report kaishi, it was very insightful. I agree that cutting trinisphere can make the deck less clunky and I always wanted to make a list without it (but with no success), mostly to bring voltaic key back and avoid self locking. Ugin's printing made it possible and I think your deck is pretty much where the deck is supposed to go. I gonna test your build as soon as I get the cards I'm missing.

I play with a colorless post build, and gonna start using ugin. Do you have any tips on how to deploy it faster without moxen?

Try Lotus Petals instead. Those enable really sic T1 plays (including more consistent T1 Trinisphere, which is killer versus Storm and Dredge. Also Reanimate, Patriot and RUG are gone if they can't answer it with a FoW). Holding them in your hand midgame to fuel Metalworker and boost out extra mana by playing it after enabling Metalworker to help resolve Ugin. With Goblin Welder the Lotus Petals are more synergetic. I've even cut out the 1 off Mox Opal from my Welder build since it didn't add speed to opening hands. But do not cut down Trinisphere. Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, Lodestone Golem and a 4th permission artifact like Defense Grid, Thorn of Amethyst, Tangle Wire or whatever with a total presence of 14-16 should be present in every 75.

[Airwave]

While we're on that topic, should there be a separate thread for Welder Builds and Mono-Brown? I find that Welder builds are combo/synergy oriented where as Mono-Brown tends to be brute force with resistor protection.



Welcome back.

I find this separation question difficult. I play both decks and they differ tremendously. I mean, I think 40 out of 60 cards are different in my builds.
But separation might also lead to inactive threads, so I guess maybe it is better to stick together. But sometimes I do have to laugh when people are reacting on each other without realising they are playing totally different decklists. Wonderful confusion :laugh:

I would find it interesting to read on matchup analysis. I would like to help but I'm not playing a "regular" list for both archetypes (red/wit welder/stoneforge-aggro/combo & bridge/cloister-control).

I can say this though:
In a meta with lots of delver, miracles, show&tell, jund, storm I bring my monobrown control version.
In a meta with lots of burn, dredge, affinity, goblins, elves, merfolk, I bring my red/white version.

I've now won a (small) tournament with both versions :cool:

[Alex Holland]

I wont harress yall with a new decklist (i feel very creative lately) but currently im running 2 kozilek butcher of truth with 3 quicksilver amulet.

hardcast? ok nice i draw 4 have a nice fatty,
trough quicksilver? end of their turn attack with anihilator 4. :tongue:

quicksilver also is a nice way to get your other business trough counters and with some greaves to go with it seems nice. I think emrakul is a little to expensive at 15 and kozilek as 10 is hardcastable sometimes lategame to refill my hand.

[LeaPlath]

Olo all.

My friend sold out of MUD and I bought into it, so I am now playing MUD. The list below is what I'm kinda thinking of but want some opinions.

CREATURES
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
1 Steel Hellkite
ARTIFACTS
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff of Domination
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Lightning Greaves
PLANESWALKERS
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Karn Liberated
LANDS
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
4 Cloudpost
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
SIDEBOARD
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Staff of Nin
1 Duplicant
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spellskite
1 Platinum Angel
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Thorn of Am

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

If any of you wanted to play a replacement to Kuldotha Forgemaster in your lists instead of running a full playset, besides Planar Portal , you can play 1 or 2 copies of Ring of Ma'ruf , the Artifact Wish from Arabian Nights. You can get ANY card from your sideboard, including a singleton of Emrakul, or useful lands like Dust Bowl, Karakas, Maze of Ith, or random narrow things like Wildfire , if you're running a list with few red mana sources, but Wishing for Wildfire happens to be a good play, or Smokestack, for weird situational things, ... most people I've talked to misread the card, it is just as fast / slow as a Forgemaster without having a Lightning Greaves on it .

Cast it for 5 mana,

During your upkeep, on your following turn, activate the ability for 5 mana again, it will put the thing into your hand on your next draw. It makes Staff of Domination with infinite mana insanely good if you can't win right away with a blightsteel, you probably could by hardcasting an Emrakul and taking an extra turn with it!

Yes , the total is 10 mana. Ugin is 8, Sundering Titan is 8, and people are hardcasting those. So why not put 1 Emrakul in the side, at least and probably just 1 copy of Ring of Ma'ruf, and you can have random blow outs with uber silver bullets?

you can take any card with it including lands and eldrazi or random red cards like Wildfire .

speaking of which I've wanted to play Wildfire because the deck is already splashing red already

has anyone tried playing cards like Burning Wish?

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

the list I like to play now, regardless of my pet ideas, The only reason I'm not playing Ring of Ma'ruf is because I don't own copies of any cards that I would wish for like Emrakul, Maze, Karakas, otherwise I might try it. In fact to be honest I see no reason not to play 1 copy of Urborg Tomb and 1 copy of Karakas in the main instead of Wasteland for those situations you want to bounce Griselbrand , not kill yourself with Ancient Tomb, and it enters untapped and adds mana. it's not that narrow of a card. Wasteland is pretty useless in this deck. I've considered playing 1 Dust Bowl but I'd rather have Cavern and Mishra's Factory in the main . what I am playing now and don't laugh!

for people who are NOT playing the Cloudposts and playing Welder instead , You could play Jeweled Amulet as a singleton , because it sacrifices to Forgemaster , is rechargeable for 1 mana, is a 0 drop like Mox Opal, Mox Diamond, and Lotus Petal, but you don't need metalcraft or have to pitch a land to it. If you open your 7 with no Sol Land, and your deck doesnt run many of them because you want Daretti or you want Welder or Faithless Looting , a hand lead off with a land producing only 1 mana will enable you to cast a turn 2 Metalworker, and it helps your curve playing around Daze, as I said, without card disadvantage. Even if you lead off playing 2nd expecting a Daze or Spell Pierce it helps you play around those cards early in the game without wasting itself or other cards. I've often used it to help cast metalworker, get it Swords'd , then Wasteland'd or whatever, and being able to charge it for that second time without any artifacts in play for metalcraft has helped me win the game with forgemaster later.

it's the only card that can do those plays. it's an uncommon from Ice Age. it's better than any of the Moxes in Legacy for this deck. I'm only not playing it because of all the comes into play tapped lands that Cloudpost brings into the strategy makes it kind of pointless

LANDS

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Vesuva
2 Mishra's Factory

CREATURES

1 Scarecrone
4 Metalworker
4 Ugin's Construct
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Blightsteel Colossus

ARTIFACT

4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination

PLANESWALKERS

1 Karn, Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

//

I really don't care about my sideboard with this deck at all but what I like to play :

Relic of Progenitus -- Graveyard hate. 2.

Omen Machine -- Kills Miracles

Witchbane Orb -- Kills Storm

Lodestone Golem -- Replace Ugin with 4 of this against Storm and Elves but not anything else.

Silent Arbiter -- Goblins. I think that's it.

Wurmcoil Engine -- Burn, decks playing Liliana , instead of Platinum Angel i guess, jsut an extra two but this deck doens't realy need lifegain anymore , he's another hatecard

Duplicant -- 2-3 of these. for Re-Animator and Show & Tell

Spine of Ish Sah -- for that random guy that brings Solitary Confinement/Enchantress

that's already 15 and they don't change the gameplan all that much there is little to sideboard.

[LOLWut]

Creativity's fine, but those card choices are extremely suboptimal.

There are much better things to be doing with 4 mana than


4 Ugin's Construct
.

If any of you wanted to play a replacement to Kuldotha Forgemaster in your lists instead of running a full playset, besides Planar Portal , you can play 1 or 2 copies of Ring of Ma'ruf , the Artifact Wish from Arabian Nights. You can get ANY card from your sideboard, including a singleton of Emrakul, or useful lands like Dust Bowl, Karakas, Maze of Ith, or random narrow things like Wildfire , if you're running a list with few red mana sources, but Wishing for Wildfire happens to be a good play, or Smokestack, for weird situational things, ... most people I've talked to misread the card, it is just as fast / slow as a Forgemaster without having a Lightning Greaves on it .

Cast it for 5 mana,

During your upkeep, on your following turn, activate the ability for 5 mana again, it will put the thing into your hand on your next draw. It makes Staff of Domination with infinite mana insanely good if you can't win right away with a blightsteel, you probably could by hardcasting an Emrakul and taking an extra turn with it!

Yes , the total is 10 mana. Ugin is 8, Sundering Titan is 8, and people are hardcasting those. So why not put 1 Emrakul in the side, at least and probably just 1 copy of Ring of Ma'ruf, and you can have random blow outs with uber silver bullets?

you can take any card with it including lands and eldrazi or random red cards like Wildfire .
Both Planar Portal and Ring of Ma'rûf would be very bad. You can't compare their slowness with the slowness of Forgemaster, while overlooking that Forgemaster puts the chosen card on the battlefield instead of into your hand (and is much more mana intensive). And justifying a tutor's cost using the cost of a game-ending permanents like Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and Sundering Titan is very flawed.

No offense intended.

[Bobmans]

Creativity's fine, but those card choices are extremely suboptimal.

There are much better things to be doing with 4 mana than

.

Both Planar Portal and Ring of Ma'rûf would be very bad. You can't compare their slowness with the slowness of Forgemaster, while overlooking that Forgemaster puts the chosen card on the battlefield instead of into your hand (and is much more mana intensive). And justifying a tutor's cost using the cost of a game-ending permanents like Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and Sundering Titan is very flawed.

No offense intended.

Agreed.

[Bobmans]

Olo all.

My friend sold out of MUD and I bought into it, so I am now playing MUD. The list below is what I'm kinda thinking of but want some opinions.

CREATURES
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
1 Steel Hellkite
ARTIFACTS
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff of Domination
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Lightning Greaves
PLANESWALKERS
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Karn Liberated
LANDS
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
4 Cloudpost
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
SIDEBOARD
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Staff of Nin
1 Duplicant
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spellskite
1 Platinum Angel
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Thorn of Am

List looks fine, but..... needs more Ugin ;-)

[Alex Holland]

Creativity's fine, but those card choices are extremely suboptimal.

No offense intended.

4 mana?

Quicksilver amulet.

4 mana uncounterable wurmcoil/kuldotha/kozilek at end of their turn.

Thats where u can put those 4 mana to work.

@troll, splash green? Living wish? Ancient stirrings?

[Bobmans]

4 mana?

Quicksilver amulet.

4 mana uncounterable wurmcoil/kuldotha/kozilek at end of their turn.

Thats where u can put those 4 mana to work.

@troll, splash green? Living wish? Ancient stirrings?
Thing is, quicksilver can still get countered. Cavern of Souls is just fine. Plus playing more things that you actually want is better then to cut room for utility that might do something good.

Ugins construct does nothing. Lodestone Golem is in anyway better for this deck to play. And the argument for "it dies to bolt" i hear sometimes is total crap, because then your doing it wrong. I mean Thalia also dies to bolt and whatnot but i never hear that argument...

[Alex Holland]

Thing is, quicksilver can still get countered. Cavern of Souls is just fine. Plus playing more things that you actually want is better then to cut room for utility that might do something good.

Ugins construct does nothing. Lodestone Golem is in anyway better for this deck to play. And the argument for "it dies to bolt" i hear sometimes is total crap, because then your doing it wrong. I mean Thalia also dies to bolt and whatnot but i never hear that argument...

If someone counters quicksilver amulet hes a fool. I have never ever had one countered- thats the thing if everything you play is dangerous they will run out of counters very quick. Thats why i play 4 metalworker; ppl freak out when they see it and do anything to make it go away, even when you have cloudposts and dynamo on the table lol. Plus i abuse quicksilver with 2 kozilek, butcher of truth. Hes cheap enough to power out on its own late game (and refuel the hand) and expensive enough to make a amulet worthy to play (eot, attack anhilate 4). When i have quicksilver and 4 mana ppl dont even dear to attack me anymore :laugh:

[Bobmans]

If he does not counter quicksilver hes a bigger idiot. People will mostly save a bolt or plow to take care of metalworker. Also good players know if it is actually a threat that needs to be taken care of and how. People that freak out on sight do not make a solid threat analysis and will lose because they make stupid choices.

Plus, basicly what you are telling me is that removing Metalworker, Countering Quicksilver Amulet and Wasting a Cloudpost completely shuts down your gameplan.

[Alex Holland]

If he does not counter quicksilver hes a bigger idiot. People will mostly save a bolt or plow to take care of metalworker. Also good players know if it is actually a threat that needs to be taken care of and how. People that freak out on sight do not make a solid threat analysis and will lose because they make stupid choices.

Plus, basicly what you are telling me is that removing Metalworker, Countering Quicksilver Amulet and Wasting a Cloudpost completely shuts down your gameplan.

So what your claiming is that if a opponent can play 3 " vindicates" (aka land/artifact/creature removal) in response to me my gameplan is affected.

Wow what a analysis by someone who says the dies to removal argument isnt fair. :wink:

[Bobmans]

So what your claiming is that if a opponent can play 3 " vindicates" (aka land/artifact/creature removal) in response to me my gameplan is affected.

Wow what a analysis by someone who says the dies to removal argument isnt fair. :wink:

No, what i am saying is that it is easy to hate the strategie. They way you promote Quicksilver is like it is unstoppable and that people trying to counter it are stupid? The card itself can be undeniable strong, but forces you to play a suboptimal list. While i'd rather pressure them with Golem's, Wurmcoil, etc instead of forcing myself to cheat in Kozilek and whatnot with Quicksilver. Take out that card and preventing you to reach 10+ mana is much more easy to achieve then to stop smaller bombs from hitting the board more constant. Besides that, is not uncommon to run against a list with Bolt/Plow/Decay, FoW and Wasteland.

[Alex Holland]

No, what i am saying is that it is easy to hate the strategie. They way you promote Quicksilver is like it is unstoppable and that people trying to counter it are stupid? The card itself can be undeniable strong, but forces you to play a suboptimal list. While i'd rather pressure them with Golem's, Wurmcoil, etc instead of forcing myself to cheat in Kozilek and whatnot with Quicksilver. Take out that card and preventing you to reach 10+ mana is much more easy to achieve then to stop smaller bombs from hitting the board more constant. Besides that, is not uncommon to run against a list with Bolt/Plow/Decay, FoW and Wasteland.

The existence of list with land-removal are actually a argument FOR quicksilver amulet. I promote quicksilver amulet because its a good card wich not many know about. You call it a suboptimal list but thats 1. a metacall 2. a opinion 3. i havent placed this list here. Forcing something in? Whats that for nonsense. You draw a hand and based on the hand and what you draw you make choices. 10 mana is not hard to get in my list, so 2 kozilek is very reasonable. T3/4 attack with a kozilek? Nothing wrong with that in a MUD shell!

[Bobmans]

The existence of list with land-removal are actually a argument FOR quicksilver amulet. I promote quicksilver amulet because its a good card wich not many know about. You call it a suboptimal list but thats 1. a metacall 2. a opinion 3. i havent placed this list here. Forcing something in? Whats that for nonsense. You draw a hand and based on the hand and what you draw you make choices. 10 mana is not hard to get in my list, so 2 kozilek is very reasonable. T3/4 attack with a kozilek? Nothing wrong with that in a MUD shell!

You say play the Quicksilver Amulet to have uncounterable creatures. And you say that people who counter the Quicksilver Amulet are fools. That does not make sense now either. Being able to resolve Kozilek thru A. Metalworker, B. Cloudpost/land mana (requires 4 lands), C. Quicksilver + 2x4 mana requires you to run a shitload of cards that do not do much on their own. All taking time and resources to setup. Now the thing with MUD that it wants to pressure fast and ramp/build up. Cards like Lodestone Golem and Kuldotha Forgemaster have double roles and are put on the board more easily with or without the assistance of Cavern of Souls. While still Forgemaster activation is most of the time an all in suicide plan it either wins, or prevents you from losing, but can be activated as early as T2. On its own it is still a 3/5 creature that attacks or blocks. Same is said about Lodestone Golem. 5/3 can pretty easily be killed sure, but on it's own it is still a 4 turn clock with a stacking taxing effect.
Cloudpost generally takes more time to setup, using cards that do nothing on their own and playing additional cards that are slow like Thran Dynamo makes you even slower. Taking down cards of that cardhouse makes it easy to hate the strategy. For me, i feel that MUD already runs a high amount of (mandatory) cards that do not do much on their own like Grim Monolith or Metalworker. Quicksilver Amulet does not add anything i didn't have before either. Let alone run a 10 mana non artifact in the list. It happens pretty often that Titan or Colossus bricks on your hand to. Personally i don't even like Ugin with its 8 mana not being an artifact, but it does not require extra cards that werent already there. And perhaps that might justify the presence of Kozilek in the list, but that does not mean you have to spend more cards to make it more playable. The way i see it is running Quicksilver Amulet plus Kozilek is awesome and all, but not in anyway more reliable or better then the standardized or streamlined Mudpost/Welder lists. And yes, it is based on a opinion, and it is a meta call. To me putting a T3 Kozilek (no draw 4 cards trigger) with a Quicksilver Amulet into play and equipping it with a Lightning Greaves is a dreamplan that risks losing more games because the most optimal list is overall slower and more clunky than MUD already has to deal with.

Let me ask it this way: Why play your Quicksilver brew over a regular MUD list or Turbo Eldrazi (outside of the obvisous that trying new stuff is cool)?

[Alex Holland]

You say play the Quicksilver Amulet to have uncounterable creatures. And you say that people who counter the Quicksilver Amulet are fools. That does not make sense now either. Being able to resolve Kozilek thru A. Metalworker, B. Cloudpost/land mana (requires 4 lands), C. Quicksilver + 2x4 mana requires you to run a shitload of cards that do not do much on their own. All taking time and resources to setup. Now the thing with MUD that it wants to pressure fast and ramp/build up. Cards like Lodestone Golem and Kuldotha Forgemaster have double roles and are put on the board more easily with or without the assistance of Cavern of Souls. While still Forgemaster activation is most of the time an all in suicide plan it either wins, or prevents you from losing, but can be activated as early as T2. On its own it is still a 3/5 creature that attacks or blocks. Same is said about Lodestone Golem. 5/3 can pretty easily be killed sure, but on it's own it is still a 4 turn clock with a stacking taxing effect.
Cloudpost generally takes more time to setup, using cards that do nothing on their own and playing additional cards that are slow like Thran Dynamo makes you even slower. Taking down cards of that cardhouse makes it easy to hate the strategy. For me, i feel that MUD already runs a high amount of (mandatory) cards that do not do much on their own like Grim Monolith or Metalworker. Quicksilver Amulet does not add anything i didn't have before either. Let alone run a 10 mana non artifact in the list. It happens pretty often that Titan or Colossus bricks on your hand to. Personally i don't even like Ugin with its 8 mana not being an artifact, but it does not require extra cards that werent already there. And perhaps that might justify the presence of Kozilek in the list, but that does not mean you have to spend more cards to make it more playable. The way i see it is running Quicksilver Amulet plus Kozilek is awesome and all, but not in anyway more reliable or better then the standardized or streamlined Mudpost/Welder lists. And yes, it is based on a opinion, and it is a meta call. To me putting a T3 Kozilek (no draw 4 cards trigger) with a Quicksilver Amulet into play and equipping it with a Lightning Greaves is a dreamplan that risks losing more games because the most optimal list is overall slower and more clunky than MUD already has to deal with.

Let me ask it this way: Why play your Quicksilver brew over a regular MUD list or Turbo Eldrazi (outside of the obvisous that trying new stuff is cool)?

Well to be honest- it isnt my optimal list in this meta (loads of miracles).

But its still a card that deserves more testing. I play 3 thran dynamo in all my MUD decks. thran costs 4 mana and gives 3.
Then i realised quicksilver is 4 to- only downside is: 1, it cant get ugin 2, it cost 4 to activate. upsides: 1, uncounterable 2, EOT activation. Even if it helps you to resolve a wurmcoil your still 2 mana cheaper then without it. I chose to run it with kozilek- 10 mana is just as reachable as 8 mana for ugin. But i can imagine resolving a sundering titan or some other biggie for 4 is nice to.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

You can't get Ugin or Karn with Forgemaster they're not artifacts .

[Alex Holland]

You can't get Ugin or Karn with Forgemaster they're not artifacts .

Uhmm.. truth! :tongue:

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

I want to discuss Daretti and Wildfire more as a possible strategy . This list was posted a couple pages ago and I propose these alterations, first.. cut from 24 lands to 22 . Play Dwarven Ruins because it can give you the RR if you need it for Wildfire.. you can also play Sandstone Needle but I think the Ruins is better here. Great Furnace is better than Mountains for this deck for Forgemaster food. The Darksteel Citadel combos well with Burning of Xinye but I don't think it is worth playing over Mishra's Factory which is very good against Liliana of the Veil or other planeswalkers it will save you in way more games than Darksteel Citadel against Wasteland or to survive Wildfire with. 4 Citadel in your deck is not going to be enough mana to play with after a Wildfire anyway... if you're going to cast Wildfire it should be winning you the game.

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Great Furnace
3 Dwarven Ruins
3 Mountain (Cut 7 mountains for those two cards above)

4 Foriysian Totem (instead of Mox Diamond)
4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

3 Ugin's Construct
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus

3 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Wildfire

//

I think playing Burning Wish is better than Wildfire too, so that if Wildfire isn't super great you can get something else instead like a Shattering Spree , Obliterate, Apocalypse, Boiling Seas, Pillage splashing White lets you wish for Morningtide .

[Alex Holland]

why would you jump trough hoops when you can just drop ugin and win?

If you do insist on red:

Magus of the moon
Bonfire of the damned
Rolling earthquake
Godo bandit warlord + batterskull
The good werewolf that turns 8/5 trample :p
Moltensteel dragon !!!!

Also whats with the forsythe totem? 4R to activate? 4/4? Unimpressive.

[Jakobian]

Hello again fellow MUDslingers. I just finished up the SCG IQ at the SCGLA open, I took 13th place out of 138 players with the following list. Someone else made top8 with a MUD list, but I do not know his exact 75. It was 8 rounds of swiss, and my overall record was 6-2 after the swiss rounds.

4 wasteland
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 vesuva
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb


4 metalworker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 wurmcoil engine
1 sundering titan
1 platinum angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon


4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 grim monolith
2 Lightning greaves
1 spine of ish sah
2 staff of domination





Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
1 Batterskull
1 Trading Post
1 Ratchet bomb
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
1 Sundering Titan
2 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Tormod's Crypt

Some notes (A more detailed tournament report will come later, but I am le tired)

Rnd 1: Grixis young pyromancer (2-0)
Rnd 2: Maverick (2-0) My opponent apparently didn't have maze of ith in his deck, and blightsteel colossus got there in both games
Rnd 3: Jund (2-0) My opponent was not super familiar with trinisphere's interaction with cascade, so bloodbraid elf cascaded into not casting anything in one of our games.
Rnd 4: Sneaky Show (2-0) Don't have good notes on this match, I won game 1 with a wurmcoil engine which had to be sacrificed to emrakul anhiliator, but the two tokens were enough to finish the job. Game 2 I got staff and metalworker and went infinite
Rnd 5: BUG control (1-2) This opponent ended up making top8, so I don't feel too bad on the loss. He was a pretty nice guy too.
Rnd 6: Bant Maverick (0-2) Knight of the reliquary getting wastelands was enough to seal the deal for me in both games.
Rnd 7: Worldgorger reanimator (2-1) In game 1 my opponent discarded a griselbrand and animated it a couple turns later due to a lodestone golem hitting the field, but I had 2 other artifacts and forgemaster active at this point, so on my next turn I just got spine of ish sah with forgemaster to kill the griselbrand, then cast another lodestone golem, and it was enough beats for the win.
Rnd 8: Sneaky Show (2-0) The top8 was already decided going into this round because it was a clear cut from points, so the top 4 tables all drew into top 8. My opponent for round 8 seemed a little bit irked, and reasonably so. In game 1 he spell pierced a grim monolith and a trinisphere, but I was able to resolve another trinisphere, and follow it up with a wurmcoil engine the next turn. Wurmcoil engine got the job done, as my opponent couldn't cantrip into the show and tell or sneak attack. Game 2 my first turn was glimmerpost, pass the turn, second turn was wasteland, grim monolith, metalworker. He cast sneak attack on turn 3, used the lotus petal he cast turn 1 and snuck in griselbrand, proceeded to draw 14 cards and not hit an emrakul. He bashed for 7, went back up to 10 life and passed the turn after discarding down to 7. On my turn I tapped metalworker revealing staff of domination, kuldotha forgemaster, lightning greaves, lodestone golem, and another artifact (I forgot what it was but it might have been chalice of the void). I cast staff, which was met with a force of will, I then cast forgemaster, which resolved. Lightning greaves followed, forgemaster got some kickass boots and fetched up blightsteel colossus by sacrificing metalworker, grim monolith, and himself, then blightsteel colossus got some kickass boots and swung in for lethal.


Emrakul, the Aeons torn was in my sideboard for show and tell decks and imperial painter. I have lost pretty harshly to imperial painter a couple of times with this deck, and wanted to curb that loss rate.

Trading post didn't do a damn thing all day, but I never played against burn, and I never saw it in the games I did board it in (which I think was only against maverick and bant maverick)



Earlier someone asked about the 4 vesuvas and the 2 staffs in the main and if it bothered me or not. As far as vesuvas go, I could see cutting down to 3, but I have copied opponent's lands with it before to just be able to play a land for the turn. Not the end of the world, but definitely not an awesome feeling. As for the staff of domination, I frequently sideboard 1 out, but like having it as an option. I really like having 2 staff of domination against decks like sneak and show and reanimator (one single big guy attempting to do the job) because you can use it to just tap down their big dude and buy turns or evade it entirely.

Overall I don't think I would change anything in the list unless someone has some good suggestions on how to not lose to knight of the reliquary + wasteland or life from the loam + wasteland. I'm all ears on how we solve that problem.



EDIT 1: I just wanted to throw my opinion in the mix on quicksilver amulet, and why it might not be a good card to play. One thing a lot of people don't think about/realize is that MUD plays very differently against different decks, and against decks with a lot of counterspells, you can bait out force of wills by playing chalices and trinispheres. If the 3sphere sticks, there's a very very good chance your opponent will have to tap enough mana that they can no longer counterspell things, which means you don't have to worry about force of will anymore. Quicksilver amulet is cute, but it just doesn't do enough on it's own, and if you want uncounterable stuff you can just run cavern of souls. That's my two cents on the topic at least.

[Alex Holland]

I run duplicant against show and tell decks. 6 mana removal is do able amd if hes in your hand when they show and tell they get nothing.

Whats the best sideboard?

Mostly i run something like this:

4 faerie maccabre (dredge reanimate)
3 duplicant (show and tell)
2 witchbane orb (burn)
2 silent arbiter (elves goblins)
3 tormods crypt (dredge reanimate)
1 ensnaring bridge (show and tell reanimate)

[Airwave]

I run duplicant against show and tell decks. 6 mana removal is do able amd if hes in your hand when they show and tell they get nothing.

Whats the best sideboard?

Mostly i run something like this:

4 faerie maccabre (dredge reanimate)
3 duplicant (show and tell)
2 witchbane orb (burn)
2 silent arbiter (elves goblins)
3 tormods crypt (dredge reanimate)
1 ensnaring bridge (show and tell reanimate)

On paper Duplicant is great. But I've had several S&T players against me that boarded out all of their show and tells because there afraid of it. Instead they rely on sneak attack and through the breach.
Which makes me wonder: Why no Pithing Needles of Revokers in your sideboard? I use them very often, also against S&T (Sneak Attack, Griselbrand or even Lotus Petal)

[Alex Holland]

On paper Duplicant is great. But I've had several S&T players against me that boarded out all of their show and tells because there afraid of it. Instead they rely on sneak attack and through the breach.
Which makes me wonder: Why no Pithing Needles of Revokers in your sideboard? I use them very often, also against S&T (Sneak Attack, Griselbrand or even Lotus Petal)

G2: add 3 duplicant, no way they see that coming. Always worked great for me.

Revoker is so weak. I rather would play needle, except it 1 mana. Best card against show and tell is just chalice @ 1.

[kinda]

@jakobian: another piece of gy hate or needle to help against waste lock? Maybe crucible? Chalice at 2 looks like the only md answer. Possibly crucible or revoker over staff md if it's that big of an issue?

Edit: surgical extraction?

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

For your list, this is the mana base I often like to play though I can't really decide. the City of Traitors and Vesuva are both well worth cutting down to 3 each , though I like the speediness of City and almost always would rather draw one of those than a Vesuva and the Wasteland cut down to 3 so you can play 3 Cavern. Cavern is usually going to be better tempo than a Wasteland. Cut the Platinum Angel for another planeswalker either Karn or Ugin . The wurmcoil isn't so important anymore, you can board one, the glimmerpost helps you gain life, and play Steel Hellkite , I think its the card I grab the most often to win with, with Cloudpost mana you can pump it a lot! The platinum angel i find too unimpressive as a win condition it gets chumped by two delvers with no removal in the deck at all. the Platinum Emperion is far more worth playing i think and harder to deal with if you're going to play one or the other.

For sideboard.. It's been mentioned many times before but Forcefield is good against Re-Animator or Arena of the Ancients . Silent Arbiter is only good against like Goblins it's not so good against Elves because they have Natural Order . I prefer Revoker in the sideboard than Needle because you can name Lion's Eye Diamond, or Lotus Petal against Storm. Omen Machine is insane against Miracles they literally can't win against it without a Jace ultimate.

3 wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
2 vesuva
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb


4 metalworker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
2 wurmcoil engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 sundering titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
1 Karn, Liberated


4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 grim monolith
2 Lightning greaves
1 spine of ish sah
2 staff of domination

[Alex Holland]

Silent Arbiter is only good against like Goblins it's not so good against Elves because they have Natural Order .

And what do they get with order? The behemoth trample +x/+x for everything thing. So if they cant attack with a milion elves that is a good thing.


This as is currently, quitte happy with:

3 Thran Dynamo
4 chalice of the void
2 lightning greaves
4 trinisphere
2 Scroll Rack
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 staff of domination

4 Metalworker
4 lodestone golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Steel Hellkite
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

SB:
4 faerie maccabre
3 tormods crypt
1 witchbane orb
3 duplicant
2 silent arbiter
2 pithing needle

[LOLWut]

2 Scroll Rack

I've tested it in MUD before. MUD has neither the shuffle effects nor the cards in hand to ever let it into a competitive list.

[Fry]

I used to play 2 Duplicant in my Board for things like Sneak and Show, but I play one Spine of Ish Sah in the main and a second one in the board, I've discovered that I like that better, You can blow up the Sneak attack/creature, and it works on Dream Halls and Omniscience decks too.
Also Silent Arbiter makes Dredge a little sad too, one zombie doesn't do much every turn.
I do play a singleton Ensnaring Bridge in my board for opposing MUD, Sneak/Show, and Reanimate.

I think that Duplican is very powerful, but I think that Spine just does the job a bit better, and it's very reusable.

[Alex Holland]

I've tested it in MUD before. MUD has neither the shuffle effects nor the cards in hand to ever let it into a competitive list.

Wrong. Its great. In a long game you keep useless cards in hand to dig deeper for 1 mana and find a win, early game it finds you either the mana or the threads you want. Plus it puts back excess city of traitors/vesuva duplicate ugin/blightsteel cards that are dead in hand for something good. Its the isht.

[Michael Keller]

Wrong. Its great. In a long game you keep useless cards in hand to dig deeper for 1 mana and find a win, early game it finds you either the mana or the threads you want. Plus it puts back excess city of traitors/vesuva duplicate ugin/blightsteel cards that are dead in hand for something good. Its the isht.

I wouldn't necessarily conclude that he's intrinsically "wrong" on Scroll Rack. The issue with it is that in the early game, there are better cards you can drop to put yourself in a dominating board state. MUD is a deck that doesn't want to build its hand up mid to late game, especially with an abundance of resources. With that being said, it doesn't make sense to hold back land drops or advance your board state to suffice the activation of the Rack after one to three turns of waiting. That's a recipe for disaster if you're giving your opponent that much time to stabilize or win the game. At that point, you're better off playing Bottled Cloister or Grafted Skullcap to draw yourself more cards without waiting several turns to maximize Scroll Rack's utility.

It seems underwhelming, honestly. I can see its general utility in a hand where you're sitting on a bunch of lands early, but it seems rather counter-productive to ship those lands back when the whole point of the deck in the early-going is to advance your board state with accelerated mana resources.

[Alex Holland]

I wouldn't necessarily conclude that he's intrinsically "wrong" on Scroll Rack. The issue with it is that in the early game, there are better cards you can drop to put yourself in a dominating board state. MUD is a deck that doesn't want to build its hand up mid to late game, especially with an abundance of resources. With that being said, it doesn't make sense to hold back land drops or advance your board state to suffice the activation of the Rack after one to three turns of waiting. That's a recipe for disaster if you're giving your opponent that much time to stabilize or win the game. At that point, you're better off playing Bottled Cloister or Grafted Skullcap to draw yourself more cards without waiting several turns to maximize Scroll Rack's utility.

It seems underwhelming, honestly. I can see its general utility in a hand where you're sitting on a bunch of lands early, but it seems rather counter-productive to ship those lands back when the whole point of the deck in the early-going is to advance your board state with accelerated mana resources.

Bottled cloister is cute. Until it gets destroyed and you never want to plat it again.

Grafted skullcap is ok i guess.. Not sure kinda meh in the first turns ot game.

Muds problem is horrible topdecks. Horrible topdecks area a logical problem of a deck that wants to be fast. Nobody says you gotta keep good cards in hand. But in mud you will draw a land you dont want. You will draw that third chalice you dont want. You will draw a useless cloudpost you dont want. Scroll rack offers the unique ability to trade them for the next cards of your deck. You should try, its makes the deck more stabile, its cheap and its a artifact. Everytime i see it im happy because i can dig for what i want to see.

[Michael Keller]

Bottled cloister is cute. Until it gets destroyed and you never want to plat it again.

Grafted skullcap is ok i guess.. Not sure kinda meh in the first turns ot game.

Muds problem is horrible topdecks. Horrible topdecks area a logical problem of a deck that wants to be fast. Nobody says you gotta keep good cards in hand. But in mud you will draw a land you dont want. You will draw that third chalice you dont want. You will draw a useless cloudpost you dont want. Scroll rack offers the unique ability to trade them for the next cards of your deck. You should try, its makes the deck more stabile, its cheap and its a artifact. Everytime i see it im happy because i can dig for what i want to see.

By the time you run out a one or two-of Cloister, you're in a position where you want extra cards. For four mana against non-control-based decks, there are better cards you can drop. Control decks will have a hard time dealing with it. And, assuming they do have an answer for it, there are plenty of other relevant targets in the deck that could be destroyed firstly.

One of MUD's greatest assets is a good portion of the deck's inherent raw power. Most other decks cannot match huge threats or game-changing machinery off the top of your deck. I wouldn't say that the deck's problem is "top-decks," but rather, inconsistency in its very nature by depleting its hand and hoping for the best. This is assuming once your hand is emptied that already hasn't won you the game.

Although, I wonder how good Scroll Rack would be in conjunction with Ghost Town in a deck that utilizes Razormane Masticore. That's an added layer of synergy that might work, too.

[Jakobian]

@jakobian: another piece of gy hate or needle to help against waste lock? Maybe crucible? Chalice at 2 looks like the only md answer. Possibly crucible or revoker over staff md if it's that big of an issue?

Edit: surgical extraction?

Surgical extraction might work well, but it won't play nicely with chalice at x=1. Maybe I will give it a shot and see how it goes. Thanks for the suggestion, I hadn't thought about using this for wastelands...

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

Unless you want Bottled Cloister against discard, this is 100% better.

Coercive Portal -- 4
Artifact
Will of the council — At the beginning of your upkeep, starting with you, each player votes for carnage or homage. If carnage gets more votes, sacrifice Coercive Portal and destroy all nonland permanents. If homage gets more votes or the vote is tied, draw a card.

Loreseeker's Stone -- 6
Artifact
{3}, {T}: Draw three cards. This ability costs {1} more to activate for each card in your hand.

,

I've tested playing around with the Loreseeker's Stone and dislike it .

of all the draw cards available, I prefer the scrying effects like this one,

Crystal Ball - 3
Artifact
{1}, {T}: Scry 2. (Look at the top two cards of your library, then put any number of them on the bottom of your library and the rest on top in any order.)

//

I realize that Forcefield is kind of an expensive card but it is way better than Ensnaring Bridge in this kind of a deck.

Arena of the Ancients is also way better than it looks.

[Mockingbird]

I realize that Forcefield is kind of an expensive card but it is way better than Ensnaring Bridge in this kind of a deck.

Arena of the Ancients is also way better than it looks.

The number one reason to side in Ensnaring Bridge is to prevent Emrakul, the Aeons Torn from attacking. Forcefield, while most likely a better pick against almost every other creature in the format, cannot stop an annihilator trigger.

Arena of the Ancients while able to stop an Emrakul (some of the time) seems to me does not have a wide enough range of targets to be better than Ensnaring Bridge or even Meekstone.

[Jakobian]

The number one reason to side in Ensnaring Bridge is to prevent Emrakul, the Aeons Torn from attacking. Forcefield, while most likely a better pick against almost every other creature in the format, cannot stop an annihilator trigger.

Arena of the Ancients while able to stop an Emrakul (some of the time) seems to me does not have a wide enough range of targets to be better than Ensnaring Bridge or even Meekstone.




I hope you guys both realize that Staff of Domination can just tap down emrakul for a mere 4 mana (which is peanuts in this deck), which also prevents the annihilator trigger...

This is another reason I am a proponent of 2 staffs somewhere in the 75. Staff is a pretty decent swiss army knife, more than just an infinite combo piece.

[Mockingbird]

I hope you guys both realize that Staff of Domination can just tap down emrakul for a mere 4 mana (which is peanuts in this deck), which also prevents the annihilator trigger...

This is another reason I am a proponent of 2 staffs somewhere in the 75. Staff is a pretty decent swiss army knife, more than just an infinite combo piece.The general idea is to drop in Ensnaring Bridge off their Show and Tell or make plussing Liliana of the Veil/heavy discard (in BUG and such) backfire.

Two staffs though, I could see that as well.

[Alex Holland]

The general idea is to drop in Ensnaring Bridge off their Show and Tell or make plussing Liliana of the Veil/heavy discard (in BUG and such) backfire.

Two staffs though, I could see that as well.

Staff has become much much much better with the 12post mana base. Plus i use it often use it just to draw a card for 5. Army knife isht. Random wins too.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

Mindless Automaton - 4

Artifact Creature - Construct

Mindless Automaton enters the battlefield with two +1/+1 counters on it.

{1}, Discard a card: Put a +1/+1 counter on Mindless Automaton.

Remove two +1/+1 counters from Mindless Automaton: Draw a card.

This has been mentioned a few times probably as well, it's a 4-drop 2/2 that will cantrip if you don't want it immediately for draw a card at 0 cost, it can be a card drawing engine that reads 2: Discard two cards and add two counters then 0: Remove two counters to draw a card . You can discard extra copies of Grim Monolith, Trinisphere, lands, etc that you don't want to pump it 2 or 3 times to make it a 4/4 or a 5/5 . The drawback is that you will only get half the cards back that you have discarded . The upside was that it was a Construct that you can play off of a Cavern of Souls for an uncounterable creature threat, like Forgemaster, Metalworker, Myr Battlesphere, Triskelion or Ugin's Construct . I like that for discarding just two cards you get a 4/4 body that if your opponent tries to use removal on it will still draw back two cards. So long as you don't pump it past being a 4/4, it will replace any cards you have drawn to pump it except itself.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

I'm trying this list this evening and I'll report back with my results .

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Great Furnace

1 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff of Domination
4 Chalice of the Void

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Mindless Automaton
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Goblin Welder
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker

1 Karn, Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Welder + Automaton are a terrifying duo . Automaton rapidly discards things into the graveyard and Welder can grab them back. Automaton can pump itself with boots on him and still use all of his abilities because he doesn't target himself . He won't die to Batterskull or Delver blocking him and he'll replace almost all of the cards you pitch to him. I'm playing 1 Mox Diamond so that i have 7 mana sources for Welder (seems like the right amount people have used).

I'm trying this little combo because it makes games a lot more fun if you can pitch useless cards and Welder is fun to play with.

[Alex Holland]

I'm trying this list this evening and I'll report back with my results .

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Great Furnace

1 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff of Domination
4 Chalice of the Void

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Mindless Automaton
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Goblin Welder
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker

1 Karn, Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Welder + Automaton are a terrifying duo . Automaton rapidly discards things into the graveyard and Welder can grab them back. Automaton can pump itself with boots on him and still use all of his abilities because he doesn't target himself . He won't die to Batterskull or Delver blocking him and he'll replace almost all of the cards you pitch to him. I'm playing 1 Mox Diamond so that i have 7 mana sources for Welder (seems like the right amount people have used).

I'm trying this little combo because it makes games a lot more fun if you can pitch useless cards and Welder is fun to play with.

Let me know how it went. I always found automaton interesting (ever since i drew it as rare in a booster, poor me) and with welder next to it maybe maybe it can finally shine, let us know

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

Strategy for Mindless Automaton :

Play him, pass. See if your opponent responds with any hate, if they do, cantrip him. Keep him as a 2/2 and trade with Delver if you have to. Once you get up to a stable enough mana base, proceed with pitching needless cards to it, don't waste pitching good cards to it unless you can welder them back.. don't just play it and discard nice cards making it a 4/4 or a 5/5 . Even as a 3/3 from pitching 1 not so good right now card it is good and will still cantrip 1 card back.

Compare it with Masticore, that can ping , but also discards all your good top decks. or Flowstone Scultpure is also very good but won't draw any of the cards back. There aren't enough things to sacrifice to Extruder I don't think to make that very good. I think especialyl if you have Greaves, against Delver, discarding cards to answer Goyf or Batterskull is worth it especially if you have enough lands, just buy yourself time, what are they going to?

To get Mindless Automaton to a 6/6 good against 5/6 Tarmogoyf ( Artifact / Creature / Instant / Sorcery / Land ) it means discarding 4 cards, and being able to cycle back into your hand 3 cards, not bad.

[Alex Holland]

Strategy for Mindless Automaton :

Play him, pass. See if your opponent responds with any hate, if they do, cantrip him. Keep him as a 2/2 and trade with Delver if you have to. Once you get up to a stable enough mana base, proceed with pitching needless cards to it, don't waste pitching good cards to it unless you can welder them back.. don't just play it and discard nice cards making it a 4/4 or a 5/5 . Even as a 3/3 from pitching 1 not so good right now card it is good and will still cantrip 1 card back.

Compare it with Masticore, that can ping , but also discards all your good top decks. or Flowstone Scultpure is also very good but won't draw any of the cards back. There aren't enough things to sacrifice to Extruder I don't think to make that very good. I think especialyl if you have Greaves, against Delver, discarding cards to answer Goyf or Batterskull is worth it especially if you have enough lands, just buy yourself time, what are they going to?

To get Mindless Automaton to a 6/6 good against 5/6 Tarmogoyf ( Artifact / Creature / Instant / Sorcery / Land ) it means discarding 4 cards, and being able to cycle back into your hand 3 cards, not bad.

Trading with a delver might be problematic since flying. I do see some synergy with grafted skullcap late game (discard to automaton instead of skullcamps trigger) :tongue:

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

My point was that if they have a delver in play, or get a delver in play, unless you make it into a 4/4 , don't make it a 3/3 if you're going to trade with Delver , just leave it as a 2/2 when you attack because in my experience the opponent will often try to trade and try to ponder/brainstorm into more delvers or stone forge or tarmogoyf or whatever they have. Lodestone just trades 1 for 1 , Automaton will cantrip in response to removal at least, or you can make it a threat on the battlefield against Delver , against anything they have really. I find that in the time it takes me to cast Lodestone and stick it, the can play off of 1 mana efficiently enough anyway. In my play experiences online the best card for me winning games was when I had been playing 4 Lodestone, Su-Chi, 4 Tangle Wire, in a really slim list playing no 12-Posts lands, just going for disruption and speed, without Sundering Titan or Myr Battlesphere or anything else much either, no Platinum Emperion, etc.. what I used to play , before they printed Cavern of Souls and Ugin

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Crystal Vein
3 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Dust Bowl

3 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Su-Chi
1 Triskelion
1 Blightsteel Colussus

3 Tangle Wire
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Staff Of Domination
1 Staff Of Nin
3 Trinisphere

This plays well. It's really aggressive .

[LeaPlath]

So. I've got an opportunity to acquire a Forcefield. Do you guys think it is worth it as a sideboard card?

[rich101682]

So. I've got an opportunity to acquire a Forcefield. Do you guys think it is worth it as a sideboard card?

What large creatures would you side in against? Emrakul maybe, but the Forcefield would probably be blown away by annihilator. Griselbrand? Would it take away his lifelink since it's not actually doing damage?

New to the boards (and to the deck and Legacy altogether), so this thread has been great. I'll contribute as much as I can.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

Round 1 -- Lost game 1 because I didn't have Chalice or Trinisphere in my opening hand. In games 2 and 3 I stuck my Chalices and Trinispheres , the Mindless Automaton managed to cycle into some Tormod's Crypts and stuff as I sat waiting to drop Steel Hellkite and Forgemaster. I won one of the games with a Forgemaster activation for Blightsteel and won the other sticking a Steel Hellkite . Mindless Automaton was really good here.

Round 2 -- Slivers. There's nothing I can really do against this deck with the way I built it since I'm not playing Platinum Emperion in my main nor my side . Mindless Automaton was really useless and the Weldering was too slow

Round 3 -- Storm again. He managed to get with me with Abrupt Decays and combo off. Even with Lodestone Golem the Decays would have cost him 3 anyway and been uncounterable, so I didn't miss it.

Round 4 -- Liliana of the Veil crushed me with Batterskull + Jitte + Sword of Fire and Ice + Dark Confidant drawing him all of his things. In game 1 managed to stick Ugin planes walker, but he used that will of the council white thing and took it out then I had left Liliana in play and proceeded to nuke all my robots. I thought that +2 to bolt the Confidant and then +2 to draw 7 was the right play to make because I didn't think he had more than 1 answer in his whole deck to Ugin , I should have just -3 with it right away.

[Jakobian]

So. I've got an opportunity to acquire a Forcefield. Do you guys think it is worth it as a sideboard card?

No, I don't think it's worth a slot in the deck at all.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

What large creatures would you side in against? Emrakul maybe, but the Forcefield would probably be blown away by annihilator. Griselbrand? Would it take away his lifelink since it's not actually doing damage?

New to the boards (and to the deck and Legacy altogether), so this thread has been great. I'll contribute as much as I can.

Forcefield is a good main deck singleton to hold back railroading decks with Delver and Batterksull so that they attack for 1-3 every turn instead of for 7 or 10

Delver and Batterkull are locomotives from Hell against MUD and everyone is playing them because even if you chump block with a robot they can just bounce the Batterskull back into their hands and recast it easily with Stoneforge, and there is no removal in the deck to get rid of it, the Delvers have flying so there is no way to block them.

fyi since the printing of Batterskull and Delver I don't know why I am playing this deck, I just am.

[Jakobian]

I'm trying this list this evening and I'll report back with my results .

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Great Furnace

1 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff of Domination
4 Chalice of the Void

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Mindless Automaton
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Goblin Welder
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker

1 Karn, Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Welder + Automaton are a terrifying duo . Automaton rapidly discards things into the graveyard and Welder can grab them back. Automaton can pump itself with boots on him and still use all of his abilities because he doesn't target himself . He won't die to Batterskull or Delver blocking him and he'll replace almost all of the cards you pitch to him. I'm playing 1 Mox Diamond so that i have 7 mana sources for Welder (seems like the right amount people have used).

I'm trying this little combo because it makes games a lot more fun if you can pitch useless cards and Welder is fun to play with.


If I were to try the mindless automaton + goblin welder shenanigans, I would probably cut staff of domination entirely, and would consider cutting metalworker as well, in favor of grim monoliths and thran dynamos for my mana acceleration. Automaton and metalworker don't really play nicely with each other. I would keep wurmcoil engines at a high number, and forgemasters at a high number as well. I would very very highly consider 1-2 myr battlespheres, and at least 1 mindslaver (because mindslaver lock is hilarious).

I think I would run spine of ish sah over the Karn in this build, and I would consider putting one of the chalice of the void in the sideboard instead of the main board. Keep a platinum angel or platinum emperion in the mainboard as well.

That's just my take on it, maybe don't cut all the metalworkers, but take it down to 2 or 3 instead of all 4. You're cheating things in with welder instead of cheating them in with metalworker mana acceleration. Mindless automaton functions almost like a faithless looting in the deck.

Precursor golem could also see some merit in a list like this. Triskelion would be a good sideboard card, and there are probably some other things to jam in this archetype that don't fit in the standard MUD build.

[kohulk]

Round 3 -- Storm again. He managed to get with me with Abrupt Decays and combo off. Even with Lodestone Golem the Decays would have cost him 3 anyway and been uncounterable, so I didn't miss it.


Abrupt Decay doesn't hit Lodestone Golem, so taxing him for 1 (the thalia way) and hitting for 5 would propably have won you the game.

[bobomb]

Isn't Daretti better than Mindless Automation?

[Silverflame]

About draws we have Coercive Portal, Bottled Cloister, Staff of Nin and Grafted Skullcap, but have anyone ever tried Outpost Siege? It have the drawback of not helping to combo with metalworker + staff but it is immune to Vendilion Clique on the upkeep.

[Bobmans]

About draws we have Coercive Portal, Bottled Cloister, Staff of Nin and Grafted Skullcap, but have anyone ever tried Outpost Siege? It have the drawback of not helping to combo with metalworker + staff but it is immune to Vendilion Clique on the upkeep.
Staff of Nin (outside of Staff of Domination) is probably the best choice, although 6 mana is a bit to much. The Staff can actually do something useful outside of drawing only.

[Mockingbird]

Staff of Nin (outside of Staff of Domination) is probably the best choice, although 6 mana is a bit to much. The Staff can actually do something useful outside of drawing only.

I agree. It's a bit of a meta call, but I ran two Staff of Nins for awhile because the value is helpful, and it can apply pressure. *And it's a card you want in multiples.*

For the most part though, I'd say Ugin does it all now.

[Airwave]

Bottled cloister is cute. Until it gets destroyed and you never want to plat it again.



That's not what I experienced. Game 1 artifact removal is rare anyway. I don't remember it was blown up ever game 1. Second game you have to be a little more careful, but still it rarely gets destroyed. I've even had several players against me who choose the chalice instead of botteld cloister as removal target since it hurts them much more.

And yes it's great against discard and Abrupt Decay can't touch Cloister :cool:

[Alex Holland]

That's not what I experienced. Game 1 artifact removal is rare anyway. I don't remember it was blown up ever game 1. Second game you have to be a little more careful, but still it rarely gets destroyed. I've even had several players against me who choose the chalice instead of botteld cloister as removal target since it hurts them much more.

And yes it's great against discard and Abrupt Decay can't touch Cloister :cool:


ehm how can destroying your entire hand be worse then taking out a lonely chalice? you were playing canadian trash or what its called or something?

things that leave you without a hand: Karn (cloudpost) will of council white vindicate (death and taxes) qasali pridemage (zoo) tin street holligan (goblins) reclamation sage (elfs ) Not even discussing all other destroy permanent or blow things up cards or return to hand things out there!

These arent THAT rarely seen to gamble your entire hand- there are other card drawes for 4- wich ok, dont have a benefit against discard but overall meh.

[Airwave]

ehm how can destroying your entire hand be worse then taking out a lonely chalice? you were playing canadian trash or what its called or something?

things that leave you without a hand: Karn (cloudpost) will of council white vindicate (death and taxes) qasali pridemage (zoo) tin street holligan (goblins) reclamation sage (elfs ) Not even discussing all other destroy permanent or blow things up cards or return to hand things out there!

These arent THAT rarely seen to gamble your entire hand- there are other card drawes for 4- wich ok, dont have a benefit against discard but overall meh.

I, obviously, disagree :smile: Card advantage in control version is key in my opinion.

"your entire hand" is often only a few cards at max or sometimes zero. I haven't seen Zoo in meta in a long time, goblins and cloudpost somewhat but little. The other two are more present in my meta. So then it's easy, play cloister as your last card.

Anyway, cloister or Coercive Portal could be a meta call (discard v.s. removal) and list (ensnaring bridge or not) but sufficient card advantage is needed in the control version, I think.

[Alex Holland]

I, obviously, disagree :smile: Card advantage in control version is key in my opinion.

"your entire hand" is often only a few cards at max or sometimes zero. I haven't seen Zoo in meta in a long time, goblins and cloudpost somewhat but little. The other two are more present in my meta. So then it's easy, play cloister as your last card.

Anyway, cloister or Coercive Portal could be a meta call (discard v.s. removal) and list (ensnaring bridge or not) but sufficient card advantage is needed in the control version, I think.

I have no clue what you mean with control version, do you have a list of your deck? If it doesnt contain tangle wire i will not take it serious :mad:

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

I like the suggestions for playing with Mindless Automaton

[aluisiocsantos]

Qasali goes in any deck with GW including Maverick, Loam, Bant anything. It's not just zoo, even though, truth it is the deck is nearly gone.

[Bobmans]

you were playing canadian trash or what its called or something?

things that leave you without a hand: will of council white vindicate (death and taxes) qasali pridemage (zoo) tin street holligan (goblins)

Where you being sarcastic?

Although i strongly agree with Bottled Cloister being tricky and unnecessary. There are better options. Even Sensei's Divining Top being one.

[Michael Keller]

Qasali goes in any deck with GW including Maverick, Loam, Bant anything. It's not just zoo, even though, truth it is the deck is nearly gone.

Bottled Cloister is played as a one, maybe two-of in some MUD sideboards. It really should only come in against mid-range and dedicated control decks where you'd want to refill your hand after having your initial onslaught countered or disrupted. The cards people have mentioned like Tin-Street Hooligan and Qasali Pridemage are one-of corner-case scenarios at best.

You should never bring a card like Cloister in against those archetypes, as your threats are pound for pound far more terrifying and game-swinging than theirs. This is turn would magnetize hate from an opponent looking to stabilize by destroying your threats first and foremost as opposed to a Cloister - which even under the circumstances you do bring it in against those aggro decks - should likely be sequenced lastly, anyhow.

[rich101682]

Hey all,

I'm brand new to both the deck and to Legacy after being a long-time Modern and Standard person. I don't know what the local meta here in Chicago is like, so I can't make too many sideboard calls right now, but here's what I've settled on deck-wise that I'll be running next week:

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Karn Liberated
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Nin
1 Staff of Domination
1 Lightning Greaves

3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Wasteland


Seems pretty standard. I was trying to fit in a second Lightning Greaves since being able to use Metalworker/Forgemaster the turn they come into play always seems great, but I don't know what to cut out. I've seen a lot of people sticking Spine in their sideboards, but especially not knowing what my meta is, having that as the only non-Karn way to deal with something like Ensnaring Bridge seems pretty safe.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

Isn't Daretti better than Mindless Automation?

Daretti needs coloured mana symbols to be cast which means playing Great Furnace, and Mountains

instead of playing Cavern of Souls, and Great Furnace , which isn't enough to cast Daretti

It's a lot weaker than playing Goblin Welder

and Welder already gives much of the card advantage against control that you'd want anyway

If you play Mindless Automaton , he's also a threat on the battlefield by himself

instead of cutting Cavern, you get to play that, plus card draw, plus something that enables Welder early in the game besides just getting things back that your opponent has Force'd . Automaton can grow to be a 4/4 easily which is relevant against Delver, and he still gets two cards back that you discarded to do it.

the only relevant targets now for Welder without an enabler are non-creature spells because of Swords

like i said before :

Mindless Automaton against Delver -- 6 mana investment for a 4/4 that reads "When they swords him, draw two cards for your 2 discarded cards"

Against Batterskull -- 7-8 mana investment, Pitch 3-4 cards to it, draw 3 cards if they try to ice him. He'll at least stall for you until you get Ugin, or Forgemaster, onto the battlefield. If they ice him, you've drawn 3 cards into your deck for 0 cost

I used to play Su-Chi a lot online and it was always considered a must-answer because it didn't die to Lightning Bolt . He was good to swing with along with Lodestone Golem he was basically Lodestone number 5 or 5-6 .

like, yes Mindless Automaton dies to bolt, but he'll cantrip for you anyway, already when he enters he has 2 counters and for 0 will draw a card. but my point is even Su-Chi is considered a must-answer in Legacy all your opponent will have against it is Knight of the Reliquary, Tarmogoyf, or a Batterskull. Su-Chi is way better than people think. Ugin's Construct is kind of insane .

I've played Su-Chi with Lodestone IRL sometimes too and it is kind of ridiculous . You don't need to wait to hardcast Wurmcoil after Wasteland , he hits the table fast, and then you have 8-9 damage on the field with two dudes.

//

INSTRUCTIONS -- FOR BR00TAL GAMES -- ALWAYS:

4 SU-CHI

4 LODESTONE GOLEM

4 UGIN'S CONSTRUCT

4 TANGLE WIRE

4 TRINISPHERE

4 GOBLIN WELDER

4 CAVERN OF SOULS

You will win games simply by playing uncounterable guys and a tangle wire with weird interactions and random big swings with trinisphere and welder

That was how I played one night locally I had 4-4 split of Lodestone and Su-Chi with Tangle Wire, i don't remember what else in the deck but before they had cloudposts, and I went 4-0 simply because i played them two at a time

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

Fun interaction discovered,

was playing against Painter/Stone

Mindless Automaton, after being Grindstone'd, pay 1 discard Blightsteel, unable to get deck'd

I have a Lightning Greaves attached to it, my opponent is tapped out, and I'm about to cast Spine on Jaya

they had Sword of Light and Shadow so I lost anyway . still kind of cool. not a good matchup considering they also have Welder

[Alex Holland]

@troll,

How in GArfields name are 4 mana 4/4s or 4/5s without ANY extra benefits any good in legacy?

Sun-Chi could be fun when equipped with nim-deathmantle (6/6 intimidate wich cannot die). Otherwise its a waste of deckspace.

[Airwave]

I have no clue what you mean with control version, do you have a list of your deck? If it doesnt contain tangle wire i will not take it serious :mad:

I don't play Tangle Wire so I guess you won't take it serious :tongue: It works pretty well though :cool:


4 Metalworker
2 Steel Hellkite

3 Karn Liberated
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Bottled Cloister
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Staff of Domination


4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Ratchet Bomb

4 Grim Monolith

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland


Sideboard

1 Trinisphere
1 Ratchet Bomb
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Powder Keg
1 Steel Hellkite


Before Ugin entered our world, I played 4 Karn, 4 Steel Hellkite.

[Alex Holland]

I don't play Tangle Wire so I guess you won't take it serious :tongue: It works pretty well though :cool:


4 Metalworker
2 Steel Hellkite

3 Karn Liberated
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Bottled Cloister
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Staff of Domination


4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Ratchet Bomb

4 Grim Monolith

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland


Sideboard

1 Trinisphere
1 Ratchet Bomb
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Powder Keg
1 Steel Hellkite


Before Ugin entered our world, I played 4 Karn, 4 Steel Hellkite.

Artifact superfriends!

I support the ratchetbombs main: they buy time to drop your bombs.
Just like tangle wire buys time..

I think i would go 4 ugin 2 karn, karn is a win condition while karn is not Always.

Also you want your spells to go trough when you drop your bombs. That why id run 4 triniqphere because it makes counters useless.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

If you play this deck a lot you should know the difference between a 4-drop and a 6-drop . Totally different ballgame. the Wurmcoil was played really only because it was good against Tarmogoyf and Batterskull.. the Wurmcoil is worth cutting down to 1-2 for Ugin's Construct at least. There is no other reason to play the card because Posts gain so much life as they are.

I think Ugin's Construct might have been more playable in Legacy as a 3/6 like Jade Statue or as a 4/6 might have been too pushed . I've considered playing Jade Statue for the lower mana curve .

[Silverflame]

If you play this deck a lot you should know the difference between a 4-drop and a 6-drop . Totally different ballgame. the Wurmcoil was played really only because it was good against Tarmogoyf and Batterskull.. the Wurmcoil is worth cutting down to 1-2 for Ugin's Construct at least. There is no other reason to play the card because Posts gain so much life as they are.

I think Ugin's Construct might have been more playable in Legacy as a 3/6 like Jade Statue or as a 4/6 might have been too pushed . I've considered playing Jade Statue for the lower mana curve .

I think jade statue and ugin's construct are cute, but are suboptimal. you can block a tarmogoyf until they discard your ugin/karn and just run you over. If you're going to be that slow, you might as well go for Myr Incubator.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

I think jade statue and ugin's construct are cute, but are suboptimal. you can block a tarmogoyf until they discard your ugin/karn and just run you over. If you're going to be that slow, you might as well go for Myr Incubator.

I am convinced a lot of you simply don't play this deck and don't understand how it works .

Lodestone getting chumped blocked and losing it is extremely relevant because of Wasteland in a format with Ponder and Brainstorm. You'll trade 1-1 for a lot of the time, but they'll stick 3 more guys while you top deck into the ethers.

I'd rather be scatterbrained discarding cards every which way in all directions with Mindless Automaton if it means having a relevant card on the battlefield that gets plowed and nets me free draws.

[Jakobian]

About creatures that function as lodestone golem... There aren't any others. Lodestone golem isn't just a 4 mana 5 power dude. His ability is super super relevant against a lot of decks. The fact that he bashes for 5 is also obviously nice, but he has ensured that I can resolve other spells so frequently it's not even funny. I can't even count the number of times my opponent has been tapped out (assuming they are protected by FoW or Daze), I tap metalworker on my turn for something like 8 mana, cast lodestone golem, opponent lets it resolve, then I cast the "real threat" like sundering titan, and my opponent looks at lodestone golem again and just frowns.

Earlier someone posted a list with ugin's construct completely replacing lodestone golem, which I feel would be a grave mistake. I don't think ugin's construct warrants a spot in the deck at all. That's just my two cents. Lodestone golem has also won me a few games against combo decks by slowing them down just enough (most notably Sneaky Show and reanimator) to buy me time or kill them before they combo off. This deck doesn't really need another aggro creature, and if you're running the 12post manabase with 4 metalworkers and 4 grim monoliths, casting a wurmcoil engine is pretty easy to be honest.


For credentials, I've piloted MUD with the following results (only moderately large events listed) 13th out of 138, 4th out of 67, 1st out of 50, 1st out of 40ish, and 29th out of 250+.

That being said, there is a sort of neat trick you could do with Su-Chi and kuldotha forgemaster that may enable some very explosive plays if you activate forgemaster on your own turn. I think these plays are probably win-more in 99% of the scenarios I can imagine. Half the fun of forgemaster is doing things in response to something, and getting the correct silver bullet to wreck your opponent's board state, win outright, or put you far ahead. I have held off ridiculous armies or board states just because I had at least 2 artifacts + forgemaster on board. Some opponents do not know all the tools you have at your disposal, and some know EXACTLY what you have at your disposal, which is sometimes just as good for you as a MUD player.

[Bobmans]

Su-chi and Goblin Welder have some solid interaction. Perhaps it could help drop Ugin, THA BOMB on the field in my Welder build.

Lately i found that playing the Cloudpost variant with Ugin, all played out to the point where i was casting lockpieces (which did or didn't got answered) and went into some sort of attrition game where we both started to run out of gas, finding myself on the brink of dropping to 0 life and Ugin showing up to claim the game (or not). So it seems to me that it is all coming down to unloading Ugin (against deck's that care obviously, GWr Maverick and BUG/UWR delver being some of them). Lock, ramp and one smoking Ugin!

[Alex Holland]

Su-chi and Goblin Welder have some solid interaction. Perhaps it could help drop Ugin, THA BOMB on the field in my Welder build.

Lately i found that playing the Cloudpost variant with Ugin, all played out to the point where i was casting lockpieces (which did or didn't got answered) and went into some sort of attrition game where we both started to run out of gas, finding myself on the brink of dropping to 0 life and Ugin showing up to claim the game (or not). So it seems to me that it is all coming down to unloading Ugin (against deck's that care obviously, GWr Maverick and BUG/UWR delver being some of them). Lock, ramp and one smoking Ugin!

Im so glad to have 2 foil ugin, its muds emrakul

Anyone ever tried porcelain legionaire? It intrigues me with 3/1 first struke for 2 + 2 life

[(nameless one)]

Going further back on this thread, my go to list before I stopped playing would be the page68 list.

I think Ugin would be what that list needs to win games from behind. The problem I had with that list was when I was behind, the lock pieces did not do anything. Although my concern is casting Ugin even if it costs 10 mana to do so.

I understand that Post mana base should make it relatively easy but with the metagame change, Wastelands could rise again.


On the other hand, my page one welder list could also use Daretti.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

About creatures that function as lodestone golem... There aren't any others. Lodestone golem isn't just a 4 mana 5 power dude. His ability is super super relevant against a lot of decks.

It's relevant against Storm, and Elves, but that's it

If it set them off of TWO mana, it'd be playable.

and yes , Su-Chi is very good Grim Monoliths 5-8 if you have a Welder or Daretti in play

and will even untap them which can be huge .

Blocking a Germ token with Su-Chi and then untapping Monolith to cast Forgemaster has won me games.

I like the Lodestone against BUG and the other fair decks . but against X-Delver deck with Swords or Bolt it is really useless

and the 5 power makes little difference they're going to fetch 2-3 times anyway .

and I think Ugin is so good that it is worth cutting Cavern of Souls so that all the other spells in the deck eat Force of Will until you drop him.

and I usually play Metalworker just to get it Plowed so that I can play Wurmcoil or somehting else after. My opponents still don't know not to kill him even though I tell them all the time he's such a hate magnet I am really lying to them.

[Alex Holland]

@nameless,

If wasteland gets out of control maybe we should go try pithing needle like 12post does.

Or in a red build blood moon, often locks them totally and altough its slows us down to i dont think you would mind a blood moon with a daretti or welder (i think any red splash MUD plays at least welder) to ride to a win.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

There was a list on Starcity playing 4 Goblin Welder, and 4 Faithless Looting, with no Trinisphere or Chalice, but I don't remember where the link was. I'm thinking of just leaving those cards in my sideboard and then I won't complain about not having enough threats if I play MUD stompy .

I would replace Looting with Daretti and play 3/3 split

[Jakobian]

It's relevant against Storm, and Elves, but that's it

If it set them off of TWO mana, it'd be playable.

and yes , Su-Chi is very good Grim Monoliths 5-8 if you have a Welder or Daretti in play

and will even untap them which can be huge .

Blocking a Germ token with Su-Chi and then untapping Monolith to cast Forgemaster has won me games.

I like the Lodestone against BUG and the other fair decks . but against X-Delver deck with Swords or Bolt it is really useless

and the 5 power makes little difference they're going to fetch 2-3 times anyway .

and I think Ugin is so good that it is worth cutting Cavern of Souls so that all the other spells in the deck eat Force of Will until you drop him.

and I usually play Metalworker just to get it Plowed so that I can play Wurmcoil or somehting else after. My opponents still don't know not to kill him even though I tell them all the time he's such a hate magnet I am really lying to them.

You bring up a good point of the interaction between su-chi and grim monolith, but I have to disagree with the way you're evaluating lodestone golem in the matches where it gets bolted or plowed, and I want to point out that Chalice of the void on x=1 stops both of those things from happening.


Lodestone golem is also extremely relevant against dredge, sneaky show, and decks with young pyromancer (which are gaining popularity it seems).

Another thing to note, if your lodestone golem is eating a bolt or a swords to plowshares, that's a bolt that would kill metalworker, or a swords that would kill wurmcoil engine. I'd gladly gain 5 life and eat a swords to plowshares so that next turn I can play a wurmcoil engine that goes unanswered.

If you're playing metalworker to eat removal, I feel you're playing the deck wrong. Given the choice, I will play trinisphere or chalice of the void before metalworker against 90% of the field. I will very very rarely put a metalworker out by it's lonesome, and it's usually in times of desperation that I do that. The deck wants to push into the late game where it just wrecks house.

I would be interested to see a tournament report from you for a larger sized tournament or something. You seem to play the deck fundamentally differently than I do, which is interesting to me.

[Alex Holland]

You bring up a good point of the interaction between su-chi and grim monolith, but I have to disagree with the way you're evaluating lodestone golem in the matches where it gets bolted or plowed, and I want to point out that Chalice of the void on x=1 stops both of those things from happening.


Lodestone golem is also extremely relevant against dredge, sneaky show, and decks with young pyromancer (which are gaining popularity it seems).

Another thing to note, if your lodestone golem is eating a bolt or a swords to plowshares, that's a bolt that would kill metalworker, or a swords that would kill wurmcoil engine. I'd gladly gain 5 life and eat a swords to plowshares so that next turn I can play a wurmcoil engine that goes unanswered.

If you're playing metalworker to eat removal, I feel you're playing the deck wrong. Given the choice, I will play trinisphere or chalice of the void before metalworker against 90% of the field. I will very very rarely put a metalworker out by it's lonesome, and it's usually in times of desperation that I do that. The deck wants to push into the late game where it just wrecks house.

I would be interested to see a tournament report from you for a larger sized tournament or something. You seem to play the deck fundamentally differently than I do, which is interesting to me.

Not to mention i run 3 greaves. Lodestone equipped is a nice obstacle for many decks.

[fogxanic]

Yesterday I was at 24 player tournament with Post-build and went 4-1. I can tell that Lodestone Golem was the guy in final round against Lands. Ok I knew what my opponent was playing and kept hand with 2 wasteland, vesuva, lodestone, metalworker, 2 cot. I start with wasteland go. He play fetch go. I do vesuva -> wasteland go, his eyes almost come out from his head :eek: He put urborg go. I do cot to metalworker he fows it. He put dark depths go. I put wasteland to lodestone and he dazes and I pay. He dont get 4th land and I just beat him down and waste his urborg with 2 wasteland backup for combo.

Second game was slaughter. He starts with urborg for pithing needle naming wasteland. Soon I get fast lodestone golem to play. He plays lotus petal. I get metalworker online and tap it for chalice 1 and 2 and forgemaster. He cracks his petal and trying to brainstorm I tell him that it cost more because of lodestone and he returns BS to his hand. Turn later I tap forgemaster for sundering titan and he dies with only pithing needle on play. 2-0.

Other matches were BW deadguy ale 2-1. I go first and don't know what he plays so I do A tomb, grim, trinisphere. Which was the right option, I had second land for T2 metalworker. Ugin did great work on G3 I had only ugin in hand. 2 cloudposts and 1 wasteland on play. He had like few hand cards and Bob, SFM with jitte @ 2. I drew glimmerpost which was the only possible land to cast ugin and -2 for win.

1-2 against RUG Delver, his multiple wastelands and some counters destroyed me.

2-1 Mud mirror, I won the dice so I was able to ramp faster. One game we traded Blighsteel colosses :smile:

2-0 D&T first game card was Staff of Domination. I tapped his aven mindcensor with fire sword. And later his germ and made the kill. Second round he had plains and vial. I did T1 chalice 1. T2 Revoker for vial and he didn't draw 2nd land fast enough.

[(nameless one)]

@nameless,

If wasteland gets out of control maybe we should go try pithing needle like 12post does.

Or in a red build blood moon, often locks them totally and altough its slows us down to i dont think you would mind a blood moon with a daretti or welder (i think any red splash MUD plays at least welder) to ride to a win.

If Wastelands get out of control, I would rock a Welder/Daretti list that cheats artifacts onto the field.

----------

I have updated minor parts of the primer. I added the planeswalker section and a small description on Daretti Stax.

Bob sent me a matchup analysis with his welder list that I will later add on the primer.

[Jakobian]

Greetings MUDslingers,

I played the same list I mentioned a couple pages ago in a 42 man tournament. Got top8 (6th place overall).

Here's a little bit about the matchups I had:

Round 1: UWR Delver
I didn't have paper for this match so I didn't write much down, but in game 2 I resolved an ugin and basically boardwiped for the win.

Round 2: UWR Delver
Game 1 I pretty much punted because I didn't really draw any lands after a mull to 6. I should have played it more safe and mulliganed again.
For the sideboard I took out 1 lodestone golem, 1 lightning greaves, and 1 staff of domination. I boarded in 1 batterskull, 1 sundering titan, and 1 steel hellkite
Game 2 Turn 1 cloudpost, pass. Turn 2 vesuva copying cloudpost, try to cast chalice x=1, opponent spell pierced it. His turn 1 was island, pass, his turn 2 was scalding tarn. My turn 3 was vesuva copying cloudpost, attempt to resolve forgemaster. Opponent cracked his fetchland for a volcanic island and countered it with counterspell. On his turn 3 he brainstormed and put 2 cards back, missing his land drop. My turn 4 was wasteland and spine of ish sah on both of his lands, and he scooped.
Game 3 From my notes it looks like I took a lot of damage from ancient tombs, but got to a point where I had 2 wurmcoil engines in play after baiting some counterspells with trinisphere and forgemaster. I landed a chalcie on x=1 and the two wurmcoil engines got there.

Round 3: Infect against Michael Nguyen. I have never played this matchup before so I was kind of worried.

Game 1: My opponent got a glistener elf turn 1, got to vines of the vastwood it so I was on 5 infect on turn 2. I was able to block glistener elf with my turn 3 lodestone golem and kill it, but he got a blighted agent soon after and was able to finish me off before I beat him down.
Sideboard: -2 lightning greaves, -1 wurmcoil engine, -1 Staff of Domination, -1 Sundering Titan; +1 Karn Liberated, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 pithing needle, +1 batterskull, +1 Steel Hellkite
Basically I wanted more dudes faster, and I wanted a little more removal. Pithing needle was for things like inkmoth nexus and pendelhaven.

Game 2: I landed a chalice of the void on x=1 on turn 1 and it basically locked him out of the game. He never seemed to draw another land and I was able to kuldotha forgemaster into a blightsteel colossus and out-infect the infect deck :)
Sideboard: I didn't make any changes in the board I don't think. I might have put back in the 1 staff of domination and cut spine of ish Sah maybe?
Game 3: I went infinite on like turn 3 and I cast a karn and an ugin. It was pretty neat. I did have 6 infect from a blighted angel which had been vines of vastwood'd on turn 3, but when I went infinite there was nothing he could do. Apparently he misplayed because he had a dismember in hand but he didn't kill metalworker, so it would have maybe been a different game if that didn't happen.

Round 4: BUG delver

Game 1: Opponent kept a loose 1-lander and hoped to win on the back of delver of secrets. I was able to land a trinisphere and follow it by an uncounterable wurmcoil engine (because he only had 1 mana) Wurmcoil vs 2 delvers means wurmcoil wins. Opponent scooped after I cast a forgemaster I think.
Sideboard: -1 lightning greaves, -1 Staff of domination, -1 Lodestone Golem (I'm not sure if this is the 3rd card I took out or not) +1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, +1 Steel Hellkite, +1 Sundering Titan
Game 2: Opponent had a delver turn 1, which flipped on his turn 2. He had force of will for my 3sphere, and I never really landed any threats to stop him from just bashing my face in. Between delver and my own ancient tomb I was pretty done for. He won this one.
Game 3: My opener was no lands, and my mulligan hand was something like ancient tomb, vesuva x2, grim monolith, forgemaster, lodestone golem. I topdecked the chalice of the void and it stuck at x=1. My opponent had a pretty fast start with deathrite shaman accelerating him a bit. I drew a cloudpost on my 3rd turn, so I was able to copy cloudpost with vesuva and hold off on some damage from ancient tombs, then I drew a glimmerpost and got a bit of life back. I was able to exhaust his counterspells and land a trinisphere. I landed a lodestone golem, and he followed up with liliana of the veil to make me sacrifice it. On my next turn I tapped ancient tomb and went down to 2 life, but Ugin wrecked my opponent's board state, exiling 2 deathrite shamans, a liliana with 1 counter on it, and 2 goyfs which had been bashing me. He didn't draw a land, and I was able to cast platinum angel the next turn, ugin him for 3, then pass the turn. He still drew no land, passed it back to me and Platinum angel + ugin for 2 turns was enough to finish the job.

Rounds 5 and 6 I intentionally drew against Vidianto Wijaya and Steph Newland.

Top8 match: John Harduvel on Miracles
Game 1: I mulliganed down to 5 cards because I had a really terrible opener (2x city of traitors, vesuva, blightsteel colossus, and some other high mana cost stuff), my 6 was also bad (don't remember exactly). I was able to gain a bunch of life through opponent casting swords to plowshares on my dudes (lodestone golem, metalworker) and I gained some life from glimmerposts. He was able to counter my chalice of the void at x=1 and dig for his entreat the angels, which he miracle'd for 5 angels on my turn via drawing from sensei's divining top. I had one out, and that was topdecking my mainboard Ugin, which didn't happen.
Sideboard: I fucked up because I forgot to board in Karn, Liberated here. I boarded -1 lightning greaves, -4 trinisphere and did +1 Sundering Titan, +1 Ugin, the spirit dragon, +1 Ratchet bomb, +1 Steel Hellkite, and +1 Batterskull. I should have boarded out the other lightning greaves and maybe a lodestone golem to make room for the 2 Karn Liberated, because that card is really good against miracles.

Game 2: I had a turn 1 ratchet bomb, and basically threatened to blow up all the angels he could possibly make the whole game... Basically every time I went to cast something or a creature resolved, he had an answer for it. He cast 4 force of wills in the game, two of which were hardcast. I saw quite a few lands as he was manipulating the top of my deck with a Jace that landed. He ended up killing me with a vendilion clique and denying me good stuff with Jace. Every relevant topdeck got answered by StP or FoW like I said.

Overall I don't think I would have done much differently. I ended up with a Dark Depths for my prize, so that finished out my playset.
Hope this isn't a completely useless read.

[Alex Holland]

congrats jakobian, nice to see the ratchet bombs worked for you. I retraced my steps and went back to put them back in my deck. Its very good to t1 drop a bomb making their delver, BG elf, useless. Its awesome against miracles, dredge, affinity, infect, goblins, elfs. Just a quick answer to all cheap legacy permanents. Later on ugin can do the big clean up.

I tried this for a couple of days> and i realised after some games i did not run mana artifacts. no grim monolith, no thran dynamo- and i did not miss them!

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Lodestone Golem

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Trinisphere
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Staff of Domination

3 Mishra's Factory
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Darksteel Citadel

Sideboard
4 faerie macabre
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Witchbane Orb
3 Duplicant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ensnaring Bridge

Also on the lodestone issue- its just as trinisphere. They tap out they die. That simple. That good. That 4 turn clock. WIthout lodestone no MUD.

[Silverflame]

About creatures that function as lodestone golem... There aren't any others. Lodestone golem isn't just a 4 mana 5 power dude. His ability is super super relevant against a lot of decks. The fact that he bashes for 5 is also obviously nice, but he has ensured that I can resolve other spells so frequently it's not even funny. I can't even count the number of times my opponent has been tapped out (assuming they are protected by FoW or Daze), I tap metalworker on my turn for something like 8 mana, cast lodestone golem, opponent lets it resolve, then I cast the "real threat" like sundering titan, and my opponent looks at lodestone golem again and just frowns.

Earlier someone posted a list with ugin's construct completely replacing lodestone golem, which I feel would be a grave mistake. I don't think ugin's construct warrants a spot in the deck at all. That's just my two cents. Lodestone golem has also won me a few games against combo decks by slowing them down just enough (most notably Sneaky Show and reanimator) to buy me time or kill them before they combo off. This deck doesn't really need another aggro creature, and if you're running the 12post manabase with 4 metalworkers and 4 grim monoliths, casting a wurmcoil engine is pretty easy to be honest.


For credentials, I've piloted MUD with the following results (only moderately large events listed) 13th out of 138, 4th out of 67, 1st out of 50, 1st out of 40ish, and 29th out of 250+.

That being said, there is a sort of neat trick you could do with Su-Chi and kuldotha forgemaster that may enable some very explosive plays if you activate forgemaster on your own turn. I think these plays are probably win-more in 99% of the scenarios I can imagine. Half the fun of forgemaster is doing things in response to something, and getting the correct silver bullet to wreck your opponent's board state, win outright, or put you far ahead. I have held off ridiculous armies or board states just because I had at least 2 artifacts + forgemaster on board. Some opponents do not know all the tools you have at your disposal, and some know EXACTLY what you have at your disposal, which is sometimes just as good for you as a MUD player.


Totally agree. I've been playing several different builds over 3 years with mud, finishing 13th of 115, 18th of 154, 1st of 32 and some other results. Not an impressive record, so I'm open to ideas if they're reasonable.

This weekend MUD went 6th in 2 events:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=80728
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=80341

any thoughts?

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

Su-Chi with Nim Deathmantle and Godo Bandit Warlord to fish it out might be a good answer to Liliana of the Veil.dec

If they sac your Su-Chi you have an out against that deck this way. You should be winning against BUG because otherwise it is the easiest matchup

sorry if i am repeating myself i dont think i mentioned Liliana of the Veil and Su-Chi / Nim Deathmantle as an out

I also saw a deck with Dodecapod in the sideboard for that matchup

[nerv2004]

If Wastelands get out of control, I would rock a Welder/Daretti list that cheats artifacts onto the field.

Has anoyone actually figured out a competitive list with him in it yet? Or are we just poping him in the older red versions with welder?

[Jakobian]

Su-Chi with Nim Deathmantle and Godo Bandit Warlord to fish it out might be a good answer to Liliana of the Veil.dec

If they sac your Su-Chi you have an out against that deck this way. You should be winning against BUG because otherwise it is the easiest matchup

sorry if i am repeating myself i dont think i mentioned Liliana of the Veil and Su-Chi / Nim Deathmantle as an out

I also saw a deck with Dodecapod in the sideboard for that matchup

Wurmcoil Engine is already a 3-of in most builds, and it's a perfectly fine card for liliana. I don't think we need additional hate for it. I have seen dodecapod and considered running it, but I don't think it's the end of the world, and most decks don't run hymn to taurach anymore, so it's less likely we pitch dodecapod anyway.

[Jakobian]

Totally agree. I've been playing several different builds over 3 years with mud, finishing 13th of 115, 18th of 154, 1st of 32 and some other results. Not an impressive record, so I'm open to ideas if they're reasonable.

This weekend MUD went 6th in 2 events:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=80728
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=80341

any thoughts?

The guy at the legacy IQ wasn't really a great MUD player I don't think. I railbirded a couple of his matches and he played a little bit differently than I would, but he had all good match ups the whole day. His only loss was Dredge in the swiss rounds.

In this same tournament I got 13th, and my record was 6-2, his was 7-1. My game win percentage was 73.68% and his was 65%.

The two players I lost to ended up being 1st and 2nd place.

Your record is pretty impressive still. Sometimes the only difference between a 9-32nd finish and a 1-8th finish is 1 game of magic. That can just be bad luck at the wrong time.

I have been considering cutting the 2 lightning greaves from my list to make room for possibly 2 thran dynamos, and cutting 1 other card to make room for another mainboard Ugin. I'm not sure what I'd cut though.

[Bobmans]

Has anoyone actually figured out a competitive list with him in it yet? Or are we just poping him in the older red versions with welder?
I have been jamming Daretti in my "regular" welder build but somehow he was not so good. Goblin Welder is enough for the deck. His discard, draw ability also worse then you might think. I even considered replacing Daretti with Faithless Looting. In the end i cut them for more artifacts to be more consistent.

There is a RG build with PFire/loam centered around Daretti. The list reminds me of UB Tezz. Pretty grindy.

Su-chi and Nim Deathmantle seem cute, but i'd rather force to resolve Ugin against BUG.

Cutting Lightning Greaves is a mistake. The card is often involved in games that are won. Unless you are going to cut Forgemaster package and switch to a more prison/control list i wouldn't do that.

[Silverflame]

I have been jamming Daretti in my "regular" welder build but somehow he was not so good. Goblin Welder is enough for the deck. His discard, draw ability also worse then you might think. I even considered replacing Daretti with Faithless Looting. In the end i cut them for more artifacts to be more consistent.

There is a RG build with PFire/loam centered around Daretti. The list reminds me of UB Tezz. Pretty grindy.

Su-chi and Nim Deathmantle seem cute, but i'd rather force to resolve Ugin against BUG.

Cutting Lightning Greaves is a mistake. The card is often involved in games that are won. Unless you are going to cut Forgemaster package and switch to a more prison/control list i wouldn't do that.

I agree that greaves should be kept. It wins games and it is a way to get out of liliana and jace's lock. But if the list is gonna focus on boarding Ugin or Karn, it seens ok to MD just 1 greaves.

Do you have a sample of the RG deck? It seens interesting.

[Silverflame]

The guy at the legacy IQ wasn't really a great MUD player I don't think. I railbirded a couple of his matches and he played a little bit differently than I would, but he had all good match ups the whole day. His only loss was Dredge in the swiss rounds.

In this same tournament I got 13th, and my record was 6-2, his was 7-1. My game win percentage was 73.68% and his was 65%.

The two players I lost to ended up being 1st and 2nd place.

Your record is pretty impressive still. Sometimes the only difference between a 9-32nd finish and a 1-8th finish is 1 game of magic. That can just be bad luck at the wrong time.

I have been considering cutting the 2 lightning greaves from my list to make room for possibly 2 thran dynamos, and cutting 1 other card to make room for another mainboard Ugin. I'm not sure what I'd cut though.

Thanks :smile:
Of the 2 lists above I like the first (Justin Moss).

I've been thinking of cutting 1 monolith and something else for 2 dynamos in the post build, but that loses percentage to mana denials like shardless T1 waste +surgical, D&T and eternal garden, so I'm not really sure it's worth it.
If you're using the same list you posted a while ago, maybe -1 staff for +1 ugin and maybe -1 trini - 1 greaves for 2 dynamos, but I don't think you really need em with your current manabase (I use -2 vesuva -1 wasteland + 3 cavern of souls). Dynamos would be more useful in the list with voltaic keys and welder.

[mgoldman]

What are people's thoughts on a 1 of buried ruin? I recently put in my deck but haven't had it in play yet.

[Alex Holland]

What are people's thoughts on a 1 of buried ruin? I recently put in my deck but haven't had it in play yet.

1 offs that arent artefacts are completely random and a waste of space.

[Jakobian]

1 offs that arent artefacts are completely random and a waste of space.

I used to run a buried ruin in my sideboard alongside a crucible of world's. Against mono-color decks I would sideboard out a wasteland for the buried ruin, and against decks with wasteland, I'd sideboard in buried ruin and cavern of souls and remove some other stuff (dependent on the matchup). I have literally never activated it.

I could see buried ruin as a 3 or 4-of in some variant MUD list, but you would want to re-build to optimize it's usage (possibly trading post, goblin welder, krark clan ironworks?). I can't think of a matchup where I would feel like buried ruin would win me a game or anything like that though.

[(nameless one)]

Hey guys,

Now that spring is around the corner around here, I might be going to a couple of local and possibly major tournaments.

This list is usually my go to "I don't know what the meta is like" list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Mishra's Factory
3 City of Traitors
3 Vesuva
3 Wasteland

4 Mox Diamond
3 Grim Monolith

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Spellskite
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Duplicant
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Wurmcoil Engine

As you can see it's more on the Stax spectrum of the archetype. I am thinking of replacing Hellkite/Titan/Wurmcoil with three Ugins. I will probably need to test it as if I do that, I will further decrease my threat density and Forgemaster will be close to useless.

Any advices?

Alternatively, I might go back with my page one Welder list and fix it up to involve Darettis.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

Why aren't we playing PHYREXIAN PROCESSOR ?

really... why?

Artifact - 4

As it enters the battlefield, pay any amount of life.

4 , T : Put an X/X black minion onto the battlefield where X is the amount of life that you paid .

Even paying 4-5-6 life gives you a beater every turn. For a deck that is having trouble drawing cards why not get a beater at the end of your opponent's turn?

You only have to pay the life 1 time.

Will go through your opponent's removal like a revolving door.

//

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
2 Vesuva
2 Wasteland

3 Mox Diamond
4 Grim Monolith

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Goblin Welder
1 Godo Bandit Warlord
1 Scuttling Doom Engine
1 Sundering Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Predator, Flagship
1 Phyrexian Processor
3 Trinisphere
2 Scroll Rack
1 Batterskull


I'd play this if I had Batterskull and Scroll Racks. Need to get those cards...

[(nameless one)]

Why aren't we playing PHYREXIAN PROCESSOR ?

really... why?

Artifact - 4

As it enters the battlefield, pay any amount of life.

4 , T : Put an X/X black minion onto the battlefield where X is the amount of life that you paid .

Even paying 4-5-6 life gives you a beater every turn. For a deck that is having trouble drawing cards why not get a beater at the end of your opponent's turn?

You only have to pay the life 1 time.

Will go through your opponent's removal like a revolving door.

I remember back in the day where this was played with Crumbling Sanctuary. Pay 20 life (mill yourself 20) but kills the opponent within the next turns even when your opponent can deal with the initial minion. Crumbling Sanctuary also prevents you from dying from your own Ancient Tomb (at least it won't kill you fast enough).

[Sisyphos]

I remember back in the day where this was played with Crumbling Sanctuary. Pay 20 life (mill yourself 20) but kills the opponent within the next turns even when your opponent can deal with the initial minion. Crumbling Sanctuary also prevents you from dying from your own Ancient Tomb (at least it won't kill you fast enough).

Was there actually ever a time where this worked? The way the cards are worded and the rules work now, Crumbling Sanctuary will not mill you for 20 when you pay life for Processor. Crumbling Sanctuary only works when damage is dealt, not when life is paid.

[Silverflame]

Was there actually ever a time where this worked? The way the cards are worded and the rules work now, Crumbling Sanctuary will not mill you for 20 when you pay life for Processor. Crumbling Sanctuary only works when damage is dealt, not when life is paid.

You have to pay 19 (or whatever keeps you at 1 life or more) and subsequent damage is turned into milling. You'd still die to Deathrite Shaman though.

[Sisyphos]

You have to pay 19 (or whatever keeps you at 1 life or more) and subsequent damage is turned into milling. You'd still die to Deathrite Shaman though.

Yeah, that's how I remember it, but he wrote: "pay 20 life (mill yourself 20)". That implies that he thinks Crumbling Sanctuary would turn the life payment into self-milling.

[Silverflame]

Yeah, that's how I remember it, but he wrote: "pay 20 life (mill yourself 20)". That implies that he thinks Crumbling Sanctuary would turn the life payment into self-milling.

oh yeah, he did. :tongue:

[Bobmans]

Was there actually ever a time where this worked? The way the cards are worded and the rules work now, Crumbling Sanctuary will not mill you for 20 when you pay life for Processor. Crumbling Sanctuary only works when damage is dealt, not when life is paid.
Jon Finkel won worlds back in 2000 or so with a Tinker deck running that shit.

Tinker

(21)Lands**
9Island
4Crystal Vein
4Rishadan Port
4Saprazzan Skerry
(9)Creatures**
4Masticore
4Metalworker
1Phyrexian Colossus
(30)Other**
4Brainstorm
1Crumbling Sanctuary
4Grim Monolith
1Mishra's Helix
4Phyrexian Processor
4Tangle Wire
4Thran Dynamo
4Tinker
4Voltaic Key
(15)Sideboard**
4Annul
4Chill
4Miscalculation
1Mishra's Helix
2Rising Waters

Kai Budde won worlds in 1999 running Wildfire


Main Deck
60 cards

3* Ancient Tomb
4* City of Traitors
13* Mountain
20 lands

4* Covetous Dragon
1* Karn, Silver Golem
3* Masticore
8 creatures

4* Cursed Scroll
4* Fire Diamond
4* Grim Monolith
2* Mishra's Helix
4* Temporal Aperture
4* Thran Dynamo
4* Voltaic Key
4* Wildfire
2* Worn Powerstone
32 other spells

Sideboard
2* Boil
3* Earthquake
1* Mishra's Helix
1* Phyrexian Processor
2* Rack and Ruin
2* Shattering Pulse
4* Spellshock
15 sideboard cards

Basicly the core of those decks are what we now tinker about in this thread.

Edit: i use to play those decks back then. Also have them in the gold bordered championship decks. Anyway, this is the reason i love playing MUD, 1999 all over again.

[Sisyphos]

Jon Finkel won worlds back in 2000 or so with a Tinker deck running that shit.

I know Finkels list. I know the old Tinker decks and the history of MUD. What I asked was whether back when Finkel ran his deck the rules used at the time ment that Crumbling Sanctuary actually turned the life payment required by Phyrexian Processor into self milling, as the post by (nameless one) states or not. Because I can't find anything that confirms his statement and the cards under todays rules do not work in such a way as paying life is not damage dealt.

I did not play Mud in 1999 but I can see reasons to include Crumbling Sanctuary in a Tinker deck even if the interaction with Phyrexian Processor I was asking about does not work. Crumbling Sanctuary basically gains you ~40 life against aggressive decks for instance. As Crumbling Sanctuary is not useless in the deck even if it does not turn the life payment required by Phyrexian Processor into self milling, simply saying that Finkel played both cards in the same deck is not an answer to the rules question I asked. The decklist you posted for Kai does not even include Crumbling Sanctuary, so again I cannot see a connection between your post and my question you quoted.

[Bobmans]

I know Finkels list. I know the old Tinker decks and the history of MUD. What I asked was whether back when Finkel ran his deck the rules used at the time ment that Crumbling Sanctuary actually turned the life payment required by Phyrexian Processor into self milling, as the post by (nameless one) states or not. Because I can't find anything that confirms his statement and the cards under todays rules do not work in such a way as paying life is not damage dealt.

I did not play Mud in 1999 but I can see reasons to include Crumbling Sanctuary in a Tinker deck even if the interaction with Phyrexian Processor I was asking about does not work. Crumbling Sanctuary basically gains you ~40 life against aggressive decks for instance. As Crumbling Sanctuary is not useless in the deck even if it does not turn the life payment required by Phyrexian Processor into self milling, simply saying that Finkel played both cards in the same deck is not an answer to the rules question I asked. The decklist you posted for Kai does not even include Crumbling Sanctuary, so again I cannot see a connection between your post and my question you quoted.
Back then it also didn't work. Life loss and damage where threated as different like it is now.

Edit: i just wanted to share. Didnt know there was a ruling about making a connection that you seek. I had a connection and there it is.

[Bobmans]

I agree that greaves should be kept. It wins games and it is a way to get out of liliana and jace's lock. But if the list is gonna focus on boarding Ugin or Karn, it seens ok to MD just 1 greaves.

Do you have a sample of the RG deck? It seens interesting.
1 Greaves might be a bit to random. When i can i try to find room for 3 copys. This garuentees more often being able to have explosive opening hands or have access to protection.


Da-Welder

This link could probably get you to the original RG Daretti list. I have seen it in a tournament once. Looks like a fun deck to play.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

People were discussing Scroll Rack, uh why not

Phyrexian Portal ? -- 3

{3}: If your library has ten or more cards in it, target opponent looks at the top ten cards of your library and separates them into two face-down piles. Exile one of those piles. Search the other pile for a card, put it into your hand, then shuffle the rest of that pile into your library.

.

This is pretty much what I wanted.. the ability to draw into relevant cards every turn for very low cost. This card is not like other "choose a pile" cards, because the piles are very large piles. This is better than Scroll Rack in one sense that you shuffle the library each time, so it digs. It's a poly effect meaning you can repeatedly activate the effect more than once in a turn.

the "drawback" is that it will exile a few cards each time you do it. this is not much of a drawback at all.

[Silverflame]

1 Greaves might be a bit to random. When i can i try to find room for 3 copys. This garuentees more often being able to have explosive opening hands or have access to protection.



I said 1 greaves if your deck is going to focus on delivering a game ending planeswalker.

Abour phyrexian processor vs scroll rack, scroll rack is -3 mana, can put back a blightsteel colossus so you can forge it, helps against discard by hiding your important cards and is also repeatable. On the other hand, Processor will dig deeper, and can find your silver bullet. I think in different matches one may be better than the other, so it's worth testing.

[Alex Holland]

I said 1 greaves if your deck is going to focus on delivering a game ending planeswalker.

Abour phyrexian processor vs scroll rack, scroll rack is -3 mana, can put back a blightsteel colossus so you can forge it, helps against discard by hiding your important cards and is also repeatable. On the other hand, Processor will dig deeper, and can find your silver bullet. I think in different matches one may be better than the other, so it's worth testing.

No it iS not.

Portal is t'rash. Draw 20 cards and look at them. Make 2 piles, one consistent of 8 lands and 3 trash cards. Now chose one Of them Lol

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

No it iS not.

Portal is t'rash. Draw 20 cards and look at them. Make 2 piles, one consistent of 8 lands and 3 trash cards. Now chose one Of them Lol


That's not at all what the card does,

Your opponent looks at 10 cards, and divides them into two piles.

YOU CHOOSE THE PILE THAT GETS EXILED, AND YOU SEARCH THE OTHER PILE

Your opponent doesn't choose anything besides dividing the piles!

that means, no matter what pile you pick, you still have a 50/50 chance of getting the best out of 10 cards, and guaranteed the best pick out of 5-9 cards.

Phyrexian Portal

not Phyrexian Processor (a different card)

Planar Portal is yet another different card

Play the card online in MTGO to playest how it works if you don't really understand too well,

it will ask you "What pile do you want to search"

even if your opponent has divided all the bombs into a single pile , and you pick it, even though the pick was 50/50 blind you still get to search that pile.

I'll give you a worse case scenario .

Your opponent takes your best 3 cards, and now you get to choose what pile to search

even if you search the other pile with the "worst cards", it's SEVEN of your "worst" cards, that is 7 top decks otherwise

do the math

every time i have done the experiment online as to what my opponent will choose to do, they will always divide the pile 5 and 5, because its the only reasonable choice to make, otherwise you get to choose a selection of 6 or 7 cards if you wanted (why wouldn't you)

yes, it's "random" between 50/50 choice of piles, but you still have a 50/50 chance of the best card out of 10, and one of the piles is between 5-9 cards.

always pick the bigger of the two piles, almost always, because it will always give the best selection of a range of cards, and your opponent might bluff and put the best cards in it anyway, if you pick the bigger of the two piles, the smaller pile is getting exiled, meaning you can activate it more times and have more cards shuffled back into your library

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

A blog posting about the card (http://togedher.blogspot.ca/2012/03/scd-cornelian-choices-with-bad-cards.html) in the context of Commander

Essentially the entire fun behind the card is in these last two bullet-points: What is your opponent going to do and what are you going to do with whatever information you have gleaned from his process? If he splits it 1-9, is the 1 card so dominating right now that it will win you the game right there or is your opponent so good at mind games that he's just fucking with you and placing a basic land apart with signals that it's some über-spell? If you pass on the "1" pile, you're potentially missing out on the exact card you need to win the game right now. Potentially. Is it worth the risk of exiling the remaining 9 cards to find out?

I'd say that the answer is "No" 99% of the time. I think you can allow for yourself to get punked the once this actually crops up for better card selection in the remaining pile, even if that pile is 9 basic lands. Your chances of getting something worth playing are so much higher if you take the larger pile. Imagine that you're running this out on the third turn with no acceleration and play no land before activating on turn 4. You have drawn 11 cards from your 99, 3 of which are lands. Given the trend for about 40 mana sources in a deck, of the remaining 88 cards there's 37 mana sources and 51 spells if you have no other mana sources in hand. That gives you a rough ratio of 4 mana sources for every 10 cards revealed to your opponent off the Phyrexian Portal. Now, we all know that bad luck laughs in the face of statistics such as this and you can just as easily have a 10-spell reveal as a 10 mana-source reveal.

[Airwave]

Hey guys,

Now that spring is around the corner around here, I might be going to a couple of local and possibly major tournaments.

This list is usually my go to "I don't know what the meta is like" list:

DECK

As you can see it's more on the Stax spectrum of the archetype. I am thinking of replacing Hellkite/Titan/Wurmcoil with three Ugins. I will probably need to test it as if I do that, I will further decrease my threat density and Forgemaster will be close to useless.

Any advices?

Alternatively, I might go back with my page one Welder list and fix it up to involve Darettis.

I have played this list back when you first published it. I found it hard to win against fast decks with many permanents (goblins, elves, dredge, etc.) so I never used it in a tournament.

About Ugin, of course it is a great card but I don't think it fits in this list. Both sphere and lodestone make Ugin more expensive to cast. So you're looking at probably producing 10 mana while you're (partially) tapped out by all the Tangle Wires (+ copies). When I played this list I found that when you're opponent is down you just want to beat them with a stick and that's it. So my suggestion: Drop forgemaster and put in more (5-6 mana) sticks :smile:
Precursor Golem
Wurmcoil Engine
Steel Hellkite
of maybe even
Masticore
Razormane Masticore

[(nameless one)]

I do agree that list dies to decks that can produce a lot of permanents. I would even go sideboarding out sphere of resistances and tangle wires.

I will try 3 Wurmcoils and 3 Hellkites in the 3 Forgemaster/3 beater slot.

[Lucipher2k]

Hey Guys!

I tried a more aggro/disruption version of MUD. At first the list and then I'll follow with some explanations.

4x Lodestone Golem
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Metalworker
3x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Sundering Titan
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Darksteel Colossus

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Trinisphere
4x Grim Monolith
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Lightning Greaves
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Flex slot

4x Wasteland
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Rishadan Port

With this build I'd like to try the more disruptive way, e.g. with Lodestone/Revoker/Chalice/Thorn, etc. I also tried to put the overall cmc a little bit down because of the Thorn of Amethyst and the lack of Mishra's Workshop in Legacy.

As I already mentioned before, without Workshops the mana base is really tough to build. There are just two Sol Lands available for us and I don't know where to fit in some Mox Diamonds or Mox Opal to create some more speed during the early turns.

Beside the mana base I see another problem MUD Decks have and that's a working draw engine. With Chalice of the Void and Thorn of Amethyst we can disrupt our opponent, but we're also not able to play some draw/cantrips.

I would appreciate it if anybody got some solutions for the problems I have.

[Jakobian]

Hey Guys!

I tried a more aggro/disruption version of MUD. At first the list and then I'll follow with some explanations.

4x Lodestone Golem
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Metalworker
3x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Sundering Titan
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Darksteel Colossus

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Trinisphere
4x Grim Monolith
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Lightning Greaves
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Flex slot

4x Wasteland
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Rishadan Port

With this build I'd like to try the more disruptive way, e.g. with Lodestone/Revoker/Chalice/Thorn, etc. I also tried to put the overall cmc a little bit down because of the Thorn of Amethyst and the lack of Mishra's Workshop in Legacy.

As I already mentioned before, without Workshops the mana base is really tough to build. There are just two Sol Lands available for us and I don't know where to fit in some Mox Diamonds or Mox Opal to create some more speed during the early turns.

Beside the mana base I see another problem MUD Decks have and that's a working draw engine. With Chalice of the Void and Thorn of Amethyst we can disrupt our opponent, but we're also not able to play some draw/cantrips.

I would appreciate it if anybody got some solutions for the problems I have.

My suggestions:

1. Play with 24 lands first of all. I have played the non-12-post build before and I agree it is really shaky on mana, and wasteland is a lot more painful. Once I switched to the 12-post build I felt like the deck was a lot more legitimate, and I was way more comfortable keeping hands with only 2 lands in them (partially because the 12-post build runs more land in general. Try out the 12post manabase, which is below:
4 Vesuva (Some people run 3 vesuva and 2 wastelands in order to make room for 3 cavern of souls. I haven't tried that yet, but I don't think it's necessary)
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland

2. Cut thorn of amethyst entirely. Trinisphere, chalice of the void, and lodestone golem get the job done just fine.

3. If you switch to the 24 lands build, cut crucible of worlds (to make room for some of the lands)

4. Run Blightsteel colossus instead of darksteel colossus. Blightsteel is strictly better, and you're likely to be tutoring for him anyway. I have hardcast blightsteel with the 12-post manabase before as well.

5. Cut phyrexian revokers from the mainboard, this deck doesn't care about many activated abilities, and can shutdown most decks that are really reliant on them. I prefer pithing needles in the sideboard because they can name wasteland, which can ruin us if the opponent is playing life from the loam.

6. If you want a draw engine, try Coercive Portal, Staff of Nin, or Staff of Domination (with the 12-post manabase, you can usually draw at least 1 card per turn if you're not putting down any gas, and if you have 3+ artifacts in hand and a metalworker and staff in play, you go infinite mana, life, and can draw your whole deck if you want)

I've found that MUD functions best when it is a lockdown/prison deck first and foremost, then you play the fatties to finish the game. Granted, the strategy changes a bit depending on what your opponent's board state is, but that's the general go-to plan.


If you want to throw all that out the window, you might try running goblin welders, possibly mindslaver, 4 cavern of souls, and some more comes into play/leaves play artifacts (like wurmcoil engine, spine of ish sah, sundering titan, precursor golem, myr battlesphere, etc.)

Also, if you're running crucible of worlds already, why not try running 1-2 buried ruin? That seems like it would be pretty darn useful to recur goodies. Especially with forgemaster in the mix.

Feel free to PM me if you want my take on any other stuff. I have been playing MUD for quite some time, and I have tried out a lot of different builds for the deck...

[rich101682]

Played 3 matchups yesterday with the Cloudpost version:

0-2 against Reanimator
There's not a whole lot you can do against turn 2 Griselbrand game 1. I lost pretty quickly. Game 2 saw a turn 3 Griselbrand from my opponent. Trinisphere and Ensnaring bridge held him at bay for a few turns, but the top of my deck wasn't very kind. I had a Lodestone Golem just hanging out until my opponent was able to drop an Ashen Rider into the yard and brought it in to get rid of the Bridge.

Tough matchup. Not much I felt like I could do against Turn 2/3 Griselbrand. Is this just a tough matchup in general since we don't have much disruption?

2-0 against Nic Fit
Game 1 I had 3 Wasteland show up which let me keep him off of both white and green. By time he got anything going, I had Metalworker/Staff combo for the win. Game 2 I had a triple Cloudpost/2x Lodestone/1 Sundering Titan hand and hardcast a Blightsteel on turn 5.

After that, we played about 4 games just for fun and I got crushed in every one. Cabal Therapy/Veteran Explorer/Flashback Cabal Therapy/Knight of the Relequary on turn 2/3 is backbreaking. Are we just really bad against discard?

0-2 against Sneak and Show
Game 1 I kept a pretty land light hand on the draw hoping to draw into the second land I would need to start going off. By the time I got some action going, he Sneak Attacked Emrakul and Griselbrand in the same turn. Game 2, I play turn 1 Cloudpost and he plays Turn 1 Ancient Tomb/Lotus Petal/Show and Tell. The best thing in my hand is Sundering Titan, which is no match for Emrakul.

[Jakobian]

Played 3 matchups yesterday with the Cloudpost version:

0-2 against Reanimator
There's not a whole lot you can do against turn 2 Griselbrand game 1. I lost pretty quickly. Game 2 saw a turn 3 Griselbrand from my opponent. Trinisphere and Ensnaring bridge held him at bay for a few turns, but the top of my deck wasn't very kind. I had a Lodestone Golem just hanging out until my opponent was able to drop an Ashen Rider into the yard and brought it in to get rid of the Bridge.

Tough matchup. Not much I felt like I could do against Turn 2/3 Griselbrand. Is this just a tough matchup in general since we don't have much disruption?

2-0 against Nic Fit
Game 1 I had 3 Wasteland show up which let me keep him off of both white and green. By time he got anything going, I had Metalworker/Staff combo for the win. Game 2 I had a triple Cloudpost/2x Lodestone/1 Sundering Titan hand and hardcast a Blightsteel on turn 5.

After that, we played about 4 games just for fun and I got crushed in every one. Cabal Therapy/Veteran Explorer/Flashback Cabal Therapy/Knight of the Relequary on turn 2/3 is backbreaking. Are we just really bad against discard?

0-2 against Sneak and Show
Game 1 I kept a pretty land light hand on the draw hoping to draw into the second land I would need to start going off. By the time I got some action going, he Sneak Attacked Emrakul and Griselbrand in the same turn. Game 2, I play turn 1 Cloudpost and he plays Turn 1 Ancient Tomb/Lotus Petal/Show and Tell. The best thing in my hand is Sundering Titan, which is no match for Emrakul.



Your match results are very strange to me. Opposite of what I'm used to, to be honest. Nic Fit should be a bad matchup because of knight of the reliquary fetching wastelands and locking you out of mana. Reanimator and Sneaky Show should be easier matchups I think. I don't think I've lost an official sneaky show match with MUD.

Regarding Reanimator:
Did you keep hands that didn't get chalice of the void/trinisphere down turn 1-2? Do you have 2-3 tormod's crypts in your sideboard? Did you consider any mulligans to get better hands against reanimator? Do you have any staff of domination in the main? Staff can tap down creatures for 4 mana, which can easily keep fatties at bay. If they sideboard into show and tell for game 2 or 3, you can board in another spine of ish sah and/or other show and tell hate cards.
Here's how I usually sideboard against reanimator:
-1 sundering titan, -1 lightning greaves, -1 ugin, the spirit dragon// +2 tormod's crypt, +1 Karn Liberated I would also consider sideboarding in pithing needles if their deck is very griselbrand dependent, or if it's worldgorger reanimator or tin fins.


Regarding Sneaky Show:
How many spine of ish sah do you have in your 75? I have 1 in my mainboard, and 1 in my sideboard. Here's how I usually sideboard against sneaky show:

-2 trinisphere (their business spells cost 3 or 4 mana anyway, and chalice at x=1 shuts down their cantrips. If it's omnitell never sideboard out trinispheres though, as they override the 0 mana cost from omniscience), -1 lightning greaves, -1 sundering titan, -1 Ugin, the spirit dragon// +2 pithing needle (for sneak attack), +1 spine of ish sah (for show and tell), +2 karn liberated (need solo removal, not mass removal)

I think you either just got bad luck or you didn't mulligan aggressively enough. Don't lose faith, and don't be afraid to mulligan to 5 cards sometimes. It can pay off.

[Bobmans]

Your match results are very strange to me. Opposite of what I'm used to, to be honest. Nic Fit should be a bad matchup because of knight of the reliquary fetching wastelands and locking you out of mana.

Overall NicFit does not run Wasteland. Not even with KotR. Discard is always very difficult to face for MUD since we rely on topdeck mode. A good NicFit player can hit you hard with double therapy and hold back a Decay or whatever removal work on delaying your development. While it sounds weird, but MUD should be winning from NicFit since MUD does bigger/better things. Once you combo, resolve Ugin or start dropping Wurmcoil/Hellkite/Titan your in a good position. NicFit has the tools to disrupt your plan but it all depends on players skill from both sides of the table and how well both players draw.

[Mr. Froggy]

NicFit has always been an easy matchup for me, I've never had trouble against it.

[GhostEmpire]

Made top 8 again with the deck at 1K using something extremely close to Justin Moss' deck list from the SCG open.

Lost to a very early/timely Wasteland in Game 3 of the top 8.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

What I am trying this week,

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City Of Traitors
3 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Wasteland
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
2 Tower of the Magistrate

1 Thran Dynamo
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Staff Of Nin

1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Metalworker
3 Lodestone Golem
3 Precursor Golem
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Ugin, Spirit Dragon
1 Karn Liberated

Tower Of the Magistrate . It was pointed out to me and I don't know why this hasn't gotten more discussion that you can give protection from artifacts to the Germ token to make Batterskull fall off. That card is so heavily played that I think it warrants two copies.

Mikokoro . I wanted more relevant cards besides random utility stuff. There aren't a lot of relevant lands to play besides Wasteland which I don't like in this deck. I know a lot of people are going to think each player draws a card is totally bad, I want to draw cards really badly lol ok.. I'm playing 2 Staff Of Nin already, and I don't like paying 5 mana to draw a card with Staff Of Domination.

[rich101682]

Anyone else see this?

http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/2z6v9y/4_ugins_mud_decklist_from_south_florida_magic/

No Sundering Titans, upping to 4 Wurmcoil and 4 Ugin. I'm only running a single Ugin right now, and I'm never unhappy seeing it so there might be something to this. What are everyone's thoughts?

[(nameless one)]

Anyone else see this?

http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/2z6v9y/4_ugins_mud_decklist_from_south_florida_magic/

No Sundering Titans, upping to 4 Wurmcoil and 4 Ugin. I'm only running a single Ugin right now, and I'm never unhappy seeing it so there might be something to this. What are everyone's thoughts?

I randomly came across the Stream on Sunday. I watched Ugin win both games against a Tezzerator deck.

On game one, he landed a Chalice with 4 counters. This effectively shut down his opponent's engine/win conditions (Jace and Tezz). Then he landed Ugin and just won from there.

Game two was essentially an early Ugin for the one. I can't remember which game but he ultimated Ugin.

[kohulk]

I have also watched the stream against Tezzerator. G1 he combo off T2 with Metalworker+Staff of Domination.
Game 2 was a long one and super fun. At one time the opponent had on board:
Sword of the Meek+Thopter foundry
Monastery Siege (on Khans)
Spine of Ish
Pithing Needle (on Rachet)
Karn (with less than 3 counters)
A resolved Ugin stopped the Thopter+Spine Combo of destroying one permanent, but a Tezzeret, Agent of bolas animated an arfifact that killed Ugin. An attack by a Phyrexian revoker killed Tezzeret and then the game resolved around Karn. I believe two other Ugins were countered and later a spine of Ish destroyed Karn. Next turn a lodestone golem attacked for lethal.
The MUD player was super good and in my opinion won a second game that many other players would propably have lost. The trading post did some work on G2 as it sac'ed and returned a phyrexian revoker set on Thopter. That forced the opponent into playing the spine every turn and sacrificing immediattely to have it for next turn. The mana investment was huge so that the opponent could not run away with the thopter+sword.
Overall, it was a great game but I think the list from Tezzerator was not optimal as it was obviously not playing any Jaces.

[(nameless one)]

I have also watched the stream against Tezzerator. G1 he combo off T2 with Metalworker+Staff of Domination.
Game 2 was a long one and super fun. At one time the opponent had on board:
Sword of the Meek+Thopter foundry
Monastery Siege (on Khans)
Spine of Ish
Pithing Needle (on Rachet)
Karn (with less than 3 counters)
A resolved Ugin stopped the Thopter+Spine Combo of destroying one permanent, but a Tezzeret, Agent of bolas animated an arfifact that killed Ugin. An attack by a Phyrexian revoker killed Tezzeret and then the game resolved around Karn. I believe two other Ugins were countered and later a spine of Ish destroyed Karn. Next turn a lodestone golem attacked for lethal.
The MUD player was super good and in my opinion won a second game that many other players would propably have lost. The trading post did some work on G2 as it sac'ed and returned a phyrexian revoker set on Thopter. That forced the opponent into playing the spine every turn and sacrificing immediattely to have it for next turn. The mana investment was huge so that the opponent could not run away with the thopter+sword.
Overall, it was a great game but I think the list from Tezzerator was not optimal as it was obviously not playing any Jaces.

This part I missed. However they played a "bonus round" after semifinals since they had to cut it short due to one of the finalists having an emergency.

The same MUD player made top 4 and lost in the semifinals against Burn.

[GhostEmpire]

This part I missed. However they played a "bonus round" after semifinals since they had to cut it short due to one of the finalists having an emergency.

The same MUD player made top 4 and lost in the semifinals against Burn.
Does anyone else think the 4 Thorns in the sideboard are overkill? I'm assuming that's for Storm?

[Alex Holland]

Does anyone else think the 4 Thorns in the sideboard are overkill? I'm assuming that's for Storm?

Probaly not. Storm is easy with trinisphere and chalice.

I think its against decks that run on a lot cheap non creature spells (brainstorm, bolt etc)


Overall a very SANE list for a change. I play 3 ugins currently because its that good. I only think 3 instead of 4 trinispheres doesnt make sense. A t1 or t2 trinisphere is just crazy good even better then a t1 chalice. timewalk stuff and counter protection. man.. u want 4.

Also im playing 4 wurms for ages. Swords to plowshares is ugly but not a good argument against wurm. Wurm doesnt die from normal removal and gains you life to make it to your combo. Saccing wurm to kuldotha? Thats how MUD started in the first place!

I never understood trading post, i think its underwhelming compared to staff of domination. Staff + post mana is the nuts.

Also only 1 lightning greaves?????? I play 3. Thats weird! A greaves makes for so many easy wins of kuldotha or worker.

[rich101682]

Probaly not. Storm is easy with trinisphere and chalice.

I think its against decks that run on a lot cheap non creature spells (brainstorm, bolt etc)


Overall a very SANE list for a change. I play 3 ugins currently because its that good. I only think 3 instead of 4 trinispheres doesnt make sense. A t1 or t2 trinisphere is just crazy good even better then a t1 chalice. timewalk stuff and counter protection. man.. u want 4.

Also im playing 4 wurms for ages. Swords to plowshares is ugly but not a good argument against wurm. Wurm doesnt die from normal removal and gains you life to make it to your combo. Saccing wurm to kuldotha? Thats how MUD started in the first place!

I never understood trading post, i think its underwhelming compared to staff of domination. Staff + post mana is the nuts.

Also only 1 lightning greaves?????? I play 3. Thats weird! A greaves makes for so many easy wins of kuldotha or worker.

Would you mind sharing your list with us? I'd love to see how you've built all that out, especially how you've fit in more than 1 copy of Lightning Greaves as I'm currently only running 1 and I'm having trouble figuring out what to cut to fit a second. Thanks!

[Alex Holland]

Would you mind sharing your list with us? I'd love to see how you've built all that out, especially how you've fit in more than 1 copy of Lightning Greaves as I'm currently only running 1 and I'm having trouble figuring out what to cut to fit a second. Thanks!

im at work but i think its like this:

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Lodestone Golem

3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

3 grim monolith
4 Trinisphere
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Staff of Domination

3 Mishra's Factory
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Darksteel Citadel

SB:

3 Ratchet Bomb
2 tsabos web
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Duplicant
4 faerie macabre
3 tormods crypt

[Alex Holland]

How do people feel about cavern of souls? im not sure about it altough i played it in red mud with godo and magus back in the day..