[Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

[MGB]

On the contrary, I think that playing with 12post actually gives you more game vs. Wastelands. If you're only using Tomb and City as your mana-acceleration lands, then a single Wasteland can take out one of these lands and then you have to depend on Metalworker surviving or topdecking another of your remaining 7 sol-lands.

Whereas with 12post + Tomb + Cities, a single Wasteland won't be nearly as devastating to your big-mana plan. Take out a Tomb early? Build your 12post manabase. Take out a Cloudpost? You still have your Tombs and Cities.

I think what makes the 12post version the most powerful (IMHO, and according to tournament results) is that it just overloads the opponent with plentiful mana and must-counter bombs. 12post adds redudancy to the game-plan.

[Rikter]

As for the tutor topic, 75 percent of the time, I fetch for Blightsteel, 20 percent of the time, I fetch for Sundering Titan, and 5 percent of the of the time, I fetch for Staff of Nin. The 20 percent of the time is against Miracles, since fetching for Blightsteel can be a liability.



This is precisely why I stopped playing with 12-post and have more utility Lands (4 Cavern of Souls, 4 Wastelands, 4 Mishra's Factory, 2 Darksteel Citadel / Buried Ruins) and 1/2 Crucible of Worlds.


Happy to see that Contagion engine did work, as described in the above report. I think it's a great sideboard card to deal with little idiots.

I run Caverns and Wasteland as a 3 of currently.

What I would love to see, and what would put this deck in a good spot, is if they printed the following in Battle for Zendikar:

Bootleg Mishra's Workshop, Tap, add 2 colorless to your pool. Spend this mana only to cast colorless spells. It fits from a flavor standpoint since the set has Eldrazi, and running 12 sol lands that enter untapped is huge. Maybe it pings you when it comes into play or something, who knows. Its a card I could see being printed, and it wouldn't even break Vintage shops since it just replaces Ancient Tomb.

[potatodavid]

For the most part, we tutor for Blightsteel. It has made Sundering Titan more like a flex card for me. Has anybody thought of replacing the Titan as well?



I am probably going to move it to the board. Because it's just stupid against Esper Stoneblade and Delver variations.

[Rikter]

On the contrary, I think that playing with 12post actually gives you more game vs. Wastelands. If you're only using Tomb and City as your mana-acceleration lands, then a single Wasteland can take out one of these lands and then you have to depend on Metalworker surviving or topdecking another of your remaining 7 sol-lands.

Whereas with 12post + Tomb + Cities, a single Wasteland won't be nearly as devastating to your big-mana plan. Take out a Tomb early? Build your 12post manabase. Take out a Cloudpost? You still have your Tombs and Cities.

I think what makes the 12post version the most powerful (IMHO, and according to tournament results) is that it just overloads the opponent with plentiful mana and must-counter bombs. 12post adds redudancy to the game-plan.

I run the post lands, and this is the issue:
You become overly reliant on cloudpost, and your tempo becomes terrible. You get a LOT of hands, particularly those containing vesuva+city, city+city, cloudpost + city, hands where you have a t1 chalice 1, or monolith metalworker, but you have to open with city of traitors and your other lands enter tapped, the list just goes on. Especially against RUG delver, where getting an artifact creature dazed or bolted basically doubles their clock, you're damned if you run your stuff into daze and pierce, and you're damned if you don't. Keeping one of the above all-in style hands and getting forced is game ending.

Ive played this deck for the past year, and from January through August cashed every tournament I played with it (7-8), most of which where 150+ people. The deck has a lot of raw power, the deck has game against everything in the field, the deck has great sideboard options, the deck has a ton of stuff that if you are allowed to untap with it the game is probably going to end.... but the deck has a sketchy mana base, the deck does not mulligan well, the deck is significantly worse on the draw, the deck just kills itself sometimes. It's really high variance. I know it can win, because I win with it, so these are not the musings of a frustrated n00b...but I just have to put it down for a little bit for something with more internal consistency.

[L10]

Rikter, does this mana base look reasonable if I were to use Cloudpost?
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Vesuva
2 City of Traitors

This will hopefully minimize awkward hands due Vesuva and City of Traitors. You are right. The fact that Cloudpost comes in play tapped is very awkward with City of Traitors.

[Rikter]

Rikter, does this mana base look reasonable if I were to use Cloudpost?
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Vesuva
2 City of Traitors

This will hopefully minimize awkward hands due Vesuva and City of Traitors. You are right. The fact that Cloudpost comes in play tapped is very awkward with City of Traitors.

You will be less likely to have some of the more broken openers with less Sol lands, but yes, you will be more stable. Having the Factories will help you get guys on the ground to sort of mitigate. With a full set of Factory and Wasteland I would strongly consider main decking crucible of worlds, recursive factories will clog up the ground, it opens up waste lock, and you can also do shenanigans with wastelanding your own glimmerpost to replay it and gain life.

You trade Cavern of Souls to do this though (or maybe you weren't running it before anyways, but either way there is no space now)

What we need is a land that Adds 2, but you can only spend it on colorless spells, in the new set. That would just straight up replace City, and then we get to have it all.

[movingtonewao]

this is a good manabase if you're expecting tempo/creature heavy meta and not so much blue. Like Rikter said forgoing the cavern of souls means you're less reliant on getting a metalworker to stick and go bonkers, but you become really consistent. crucible maindeck seems like a must here with recurring factories/wastelands being pretty absurd. Basically you can out grind the grindy decks and have a bigger/better endgame.

[darkgh0st]

@Rikter: I think what's more likely to happen with devoid is that they will have a land that adds one mana of any color, use this mana to play colorless spells. We haven't had a good Sol land since the Tempest block, and I have the same hope that we would get one.

[Silverflame]

Ive played this deck for the past year, and from January through August cashed every tournament I played with it (7-8), most of which where 150+ people. The deck has a lot of raw power, the deck has game against everything in the field, the deck has great sideboard options, the deck has a ton of stuff that if you are allowed to untap with it the game is probably going to end.... but the deck has a sketchy mana base, the deck does not mulligan well, the deck is significantly worse on the draw, the deck just kills itself sometimes. It's really high variance. I know it can win, because I win with it, so these are not the musings of a frustrated n00b...but I just have to put it down for a little bit for something with more internal consistency.

it's sad to read that, I was really hoping to see the different approaches you'd give to the deck, as your input so far have been very useful.

My meta didn't bounce back to using wastelands, so for now I'm too comfortable on the post build, but I'm keeping my eyes peeled and gathering the cards for the red and stax builds for rainy days.

[EmoPizza]

@Rikter: I think what's more likely to happen with devoid is that they will have a land that adds one mana of any color, use this mana to play colorless spells. We haven't had a good Sol land since the Tempest block, and I have the same hope that we would get one.
If we haven't had a good one since Tempest block, I don't think it means we're due for one so much as it means WotC has moved away from T1 Sol lands.

(As much as I would like a new one)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G850A using Tapatalk

[darkgh0st]

I'd like to ask here, how do you beat Jund? They just have a ridiculous amount of removal that gets even worse post-SB (Ancient Grudge). I've only managed to beat Jund in 1 out of my 5 games with 3 Wurmcoil tokens.

[Rikter]

it's sad to read that, I was really hoping to see the different approaches you'd give to the deck, as your input so far have been very useful.

My meta didn't bounce back to using wastelands, so for now I'm too comfortable on the post build, but I'm keeping my eyes peeled and gathering the cards for the red and stax builds for rainy days.

I'm by no means done with the deck, fear not! I'm in way to deep with JPN Foils to ever completely abandon it, and besides, it has such powerful interactions that it can't be just written off. I'm going to try switching my sleeves out, not for superstition purposes but because as they get worn they start sticking. Certain cards may be clumping up and not mixing properly; my Vintage list also misfired spectacularly at Eternal Weekend and it uses many of the same cards...I actually deck checked myself to make sure someone hadn't stolen all my moxes, workshops and lotus. The other issue with running the same deck over and over, for me anyways, is that at some point you can wind up going through the motions and wind up less engaged. I'm married to the deck, Miracles is just my version of Ashley Madison hahaha.

If you are in a wasteland light meta then there is no need to abandon the posts. Even in a wasteland meta you don't need to abandon them, but I think you need to tinker a bit. My best finishes came during the last 6-7 months when wasteland was less common at the big events, but I was always brewing in my head what was going to happen when the wastelands inevitably came back. That day I think has come, which for me means cards like Crucible get better for MUD, then you add factory. Hangarback walker is really interesting right now, because of bolt in the RUG and Gryxis lists, so you get value, you can drop him turn 1, and late game he is an insane topdeck that combos well with forgemaster as well as ravager. The debate for me is what to cut for this shell:

Forgemaster + Package frees up about 8 slots, which you can use for crucible, walker, and ravager. You also want Triskelions main, probably in place of wurmcoil. This list would still run post lands, but because your actual curve gets lower (as opposed to your current virtual curve where an 8 drop can reasonably be treated as a 4), and one of those low curve cards grows vertically and horizontally, and you have crucible, you are much more resilient. Ravager + recursive factories is a thing. Metalworker gets worse though, by a lot, because the ramp is less useful, so really pulling forgemaster is worth 13 slots or so to accommodate walker, ravager, crucible, and probably smokestack. You would need smokestacks I think because this list would get blown out hard by null rod and needle and such, and unlike a forgemaster list you wouldn't be able to bail yourself out by just hard casting the forgemaster targets, so smokestack would be needed to chew through crap like that and free up your dudes to activate.

Metalworker + Staff frees up 5 spots, which is enough to put in Walker and Crucible, but the top end stuff becomes worse because you can't just dump it, so much like above, cutting the workers means probably having to cut the forgemaster package.

In any deck running crucible I would want the full playset of wastes. If I was also playing ravager along side him I would run factories. It gets interesting with the cavern and city of traitors count at this point, but I would lean towards cities because your crucible recursion offsets it, it enables more turn 1 plays, and you mitigate caverns uncounterability by adding more threats that you will be casting (we can hardcast forgemaster targets but are way more likely to tutor for them, so I don't consider them cards that eat counterspells)


Theres a lot that can be done here, and there are a bunch of good sized legacy tournaments coming up for me. I will run my list back with new sleeves during one of them and reevaluate, although I am going to cut sundering titan from the 75 entirely. His main deck slot will go to triskelion, which will help vs a whole bunch of stuff. His sideboard slot will become crucible of worlds. I want to make room for one more crucible somewhere as well, and hopefully this helps some.

[Rikter]

@Rikter: I think what's more likely to happen with devoid is that they will have a land that adds one mana of any color, use this mana to play colorless spells. We haven't had a good Sol land since the Tempest block, and I have the same hope that we would get one.

This is probably more likely, because the one I designed would also ramp out Ugin ridiculously fast and that card is just the truth.


I'd like to ask here, how do you beat Jund? They just have a ridiculous amount of removal that gets even worse post-SB (Ancient Grudge). I've only managed to beat Jund in 1 out of my 5 games with 3 Wurmcoil tokens.

I've always gotten them with stuff like ratchet bomb and the like to kill goyfs. Chalice on 2 is pretty legit as well if they do the whole punishing fire thing. A resolved Ugin should just about always win the game. Wurmcoil is strong as you said, because they rely on Lily. Dismember is also worth considering as a way to kill goyf, as is revoker to fight Lily and DRS, though revoker is super weak to their removal. In my list I would just pull the trinispheres for 3x Dismember and 1x Ratchet bomb.

[bruizar]

I recommend sleeving your mana-sources in different color sleeves and shuffling it up, you'll see how many times you have to shuffle to get an approximate randomization. I did this today and I was surprised by how many times I needed to shuffle for a good randomization.

[L10]

You will be less likely to have some of the more broken openers with less Sol lands, but yes, you will be more stable. Having the Factories will help you get guys on the ground to sort of mitigate. With a full set of Factory and Wasteland I would strongly consider main decking crucible of worlds, recursive factories will clog up the ground, it opens up waste lock, and you can also do shenanigans with wastelanding your own glimmerpost to replay it and gain life.

You trade Cavern of Souls to do this though (or maybe you weren't running it before anyways, but either way there is no space now)

What we need is a land that Adds 2, but you can only spend it on colorless spells, in the new set. That would just straight up replace City, and then we get to have it all.
Actually, this is my list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/15-08-15-zjl-metalworker/
Here is my "report" of my experience over the Eternal Weekend: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=900169&viewfull=1#post900169
The only changes I have made since last week is +1 Darksteel Citadel, +1 Crucible of Worlds, -1 Phyrexian Metamorph, -1 Thran Dynamo (even though I love this card)

I stopped using 12-post three months ago and didn't miss it much. Instead, I opt for using more utility lands. Crucible of Worlds is also very strong. It can even recur Citadel/Factory as Foremaster fodder. I can also Waste my own Cavern of Souls to reset it, but I have only done this literally once before. If I were to go back to 10-post, I think I'd:
-4 Cavern of Souls
-2 Darksteel Citadel
-2 City of Traitors
-2 Voltaic Key
+4 Cloudpost
+4 Glimmerpost
+2 Vesuva

[Silverflame]

i'm not sure if it's a thing, but here it is:
https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t31.0-8/11895189_875391745864853_6135367821762854019_o.jpg

[darkgh0st]

Mindstone on steroids.

@Rikter: Chalice on 2 was very useful until it gets AD'ed. I may have a chance to face Jund again tonight. I'll see what I can do.

[potatodavid]

Dat New Hedron. It'll look great in an EDH deck.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

Guaranteed to play 1 of those in my main deck

It's exactly the card I wanted.. a Thran Dynamo-like thing that drew some cards .

[L10]

Honestly, at 4CMC, I'd rather just play Coercive Portal (highly under played) or Thran Dynamo. At 4CMC, I expect the card to do its job well, not mediocre between two other cards. Thran Dynamo producing 3 mana makes a huge difference over Hedron Archive, if it is real. I'd definitely make room for it in my EDH deck though, no doubt.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

Honestly, at 4CMC, I'd rather just play Coercive Portal (highly under played) or Thran Dynamo. At 4CMC, I expect the card to do its job well, not mediocre between two other cards. Thran Dynamo producing 3 mana makes a huge difference over Hedron Archive, if it is real. I'd definitely make room for it in my EDH deck though, no doubt.

It's a real card it was spoiled at PAX along with a reprint of Rolling Thunder

Hedron Archive - 4
Artifact
T: Add 2 to your mana pool .
2, T, sacrifice : Draw 2 cards.

It's better than Thran Dynamo in Legacy because once you start to flood out you can draw 2 cards with it. It's very aggressively curved for 4 mana.

Would you rather have 4 to 7 or 4 to 6 in this deck? I'd rather have 4 to 6 and a great ability

Compare it with Worn Powerstone, Thran Dynamo, Sisay's Ring , Mind Stone, Dreamstone Hedron, Thoughtcast

[L10]

It depends. Having the one extra mana is one step close to casting all out the 8CMC cards. Since I play with Mishra's Factory and Wastelands, getting flooded is really not an issue, since I usually have action. If I were to play with 12-Post, I think I'd want Coercive Portal more anyways to draw into more post lands, lock-pieces, and threats. Don't mind me though. I usually like to be more realistic than optimistic because I rather have the card surprise me than disappoint me.

[darkgh0st]

I took MUD to my usual weekly FNM place.

Decklist:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine of Ish Sah

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva

SB:
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Powder Keg
1 Trinisphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trading Post
1 Batterskull
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

I had to revert back to 4 Wasteland due to my meta usually having RG Lands, Four Color Loam, Shardless BUG, DnT, and Jund. I changed the sideboard as well due to me losing badly to Reanimator last time I played. Thorn of Amethyst didn't do any good against Reanimator.

Round 1:
I lose the die roll and I'm on draw, not knowing what he is playing.

Game 1:
I kept my opening seven with Wasteland, 2 Trinispheres, 3 Sol Lands, and a Lodestone Golem. He kept his seven.
His first turn was fetch for Volcanic Island and Ponder, then Probe. When he saw my Trinispheres, he decided to keep on playing, ended playing 4 Probes, then scooped.
(1-0)

-2 Lightning Greaves, -1 Spine of Ish Sah, -3 Wurmcoil Engine, -1 Sundering Titan
+1 Trinisphere, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Powder Keg, +1 Karn ,+1 Ugin, +1 Trading Post, +1 Phyrexian Revoker
I wasn't prepared for Storm, but it is a good match up for us.

Game 2:
I mull to six and see a Chalice with some lands and a Lodestone Golem and keep.
He Brainstormed and passed. I didn't Chalice for 0, and just played Wasteland and pass.
He Brainstormed again and started playing a bunch of cards then Burning Wishes for a card that is not Empty the Warrens,I forgot what it was, but a Lodestone the turn after gets him to scoop. He realizes that he should have pulled the Warrens after.
1-0 (2-0)


Round 2:
The match up I'm looking to beat, Jund. I lose the die roll again and I'm on draw.

Game 1:
He keeps his seven, I keep mine too being very spicy: Wasteland, Glimmerpost, Sundering Titan, Chalice, Metalworker, Greaves, Forgemaster
He opens with Deathrite pass. I draw a Staff of Nin, open with Wasteland and pass turn.
He plays land, Confidant, Thoughseize and takes the Chalice. I draw a Cavern of Souls, play the Cavern naming soldiers, and playing Greaves.
Third turn, he plays Bloodbraid Elf, and cascades into a Goyf (good thing it wasn't Hynm or Decay). In my third turn, I draw another Metalworker, play Metalworker, equip Greaves, play Metalworker number two, equip Greaves, play Forgemaster and Staff, equip Greaves, sac all constructs and go for Blightsteel ftw.
(3-0)

He was on tilt after that game cause of the Greaves, looking really flustered. So I thought I'd take out the Greaves as he probably would try to extend hate to it.
-2 Lightning Greaves, -3 Trinisphere, -1 Spine of Ish Sah, -1 Chalice of the Void
+1 Crucible of Worlds, +1 Wurmcoil, +1 Batterskull, +1 Trading Post, +1 Karn, +1 Ugin, +1 Ratchet Bomb

Game 2:
We both mull to six and keep our six. I kept some hand with Chalice, Tomb, City, Crucible, Monolith, and Lodestone.
He plays a Thoughseize and takes Chalice, I drew another Chalice and play Tomb into Monolith.
He plays Deathrite, Wastes my Tomb and passes. I draw Platinum Emperion, play the Cricible and get my Tomb back.
Third turn, he plays a land and Maelstrom Pulses the Crucible. I draw another Tomb, play it and Chalice for two.
From here, I got to play Lodestone, and Platinum Emperion while I was at 5. I was out of his Shaman range and take the win. He shows me three Hymn to Tourach, a Gofy, and a Sylvan Lybrary in his hand after.
2-0(4-0)


Round 3:
I played with this person before, getting myself ready for DnT... I lose the die roll, seems like a trend today, and go on draw.

Game 1:
I mull to five after a one lander and a no lander, keeping 2 Cloudposts, Chalice, Wurmcoil, Wasteland.
I see a Polluted Delta, fetch, into a Delver and get surprised with BUG. I prefer facing BUG over DnT any day. I draw a Vesuva, play Cloudpost and pass.
He flips Delver through Daze, Ponders and passes without a land play. I play my second Cloudpost, then Chalice, which met the Daze, I was baiting this one.
He plays a land again and passes. I play my Vesuva copying Cloudpost then a Wurmcoil, he responds with a Brainstorm, find a Force of Will and plays it. What I remember from here is getting one of my Cloudposts wasted, drawing a Glimmerpost to try and keep me up in life and some Ancient Tombs. I went down to 9 casting Ugin, which sticks and Bolt his Delver, meeting Stifle. I go down to 6 the turn after, Bolt his Delver again (highly unlikely for him to have 3 Stifles for the win...) and resolves. I ultimate Ugin the turn after and flip a whole bunch of robots to make him scoop.
(5-0)

-3 Trinisphere, -2 Lightning Greaves, -1 Spine of Ish sah, -1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
+1 Crucible of Worlds, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Powder Keg, +1 Karn, +1 Ugin, +1 Wurmcoil, +1 Batterskull

Game 2:
I mulled to six and remember keeping the hand having Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Wasteland, Powder Keg, Staff of Domination, Chalice.
His first turn Thoughtseize took my Chalice. I play Cloudpost on my first turn.
His second turn was a Deathrite Shaman. I Glimmerpost on my second turn with Powder Keg which puts on a lot of pressure and he only had Deathrite in play, I didn't need to pull the trigger. Metalworker got countered but I got a Staff of Domination around Daze, which I used later on to gain some life and draw a card. My land base eventually developed to 2 Cloudposts, 2 Glimmerposts, 1 Wasteland. As I was developing my land base, my life stayed above 17. I get a Lodestone in, he gets a Goyf in. I tick my Powder Keg during my upkeep, I waste his only untapped land, he floats a blue. I go to combat, attack with Lodestone and pop the Keg to kill Goyf with protection from Stifle. I cast a Staff of Nin, he taps Deathrite, exiles a land and casts Force of Will. On his turn, I see a Null Rod. He is left with one card in hand, meaning I got to resolve my Platinum Emperion. It was game shortly after that.
3-0 (6-0)


Round 4:
ID Storm for guaranteed price, but we played anyways. I wasn't too serious about it and ended up making some play mistakes, but were good lessons. In game three, I had Chalice for 0 and 1, with a tapped Monolith and Forgemaster inactive. He pulls the trigger for Empty the Warrens for 8 tokens through some lands and Cabal Ritual, playing a LED and Petal to purposely get countered. I was getting low on life and stuck on two non-Sol lands and pulled the trigger saccing the Forgemaster, Chalice at 0 and Grim Monolith. He had three cards in his hand and he responded with a Decay on the Chalice at 1, I got to search but what I really wanted was not in my deck at all. (I pretty much knew he had a Chain of Vapors in hand.) I could have gone for a Bomb or Keg, but would still be behind. Assuming I had Myr Battlesphere in my deck, knowing he was low on cards, the right play for me would have been to sac the two Chalices and the Monolith for the Battlesphere. He would then have the choice of bouncing the Battlesphere or the Forgemaster. With four Myr tokens, I would have been able to defend easily against six Goblin tokens.
3-0-1 (7-2)

Mulling Stats (counting 2nd Storm game as well):
Mulled to five twice
Mulled to six four times
Kept my seven three times

I still have not had a good chance to use Sundering Titan and Steel Hellkite, but I will keep them both in for now. The only change I'm planning to make is switch one of the Wurmcoils into a Myr Battlesphere and have an Orbs of Warding in the SB.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

It depends. Having the one extra mana is one step close to casting all out the 8CMC cards. Since I play with Mishra's Factory and Wastelands, getting flooded is really not an issue, since I usually have action. If I were to play with 12-Post, I think I'd want Coercive Portal more anyways to draw into more post lands, lock-pieces, and threats. Don't mind me though. I usually like to be more realistic than optimistic because I rather have the card surprise me than disappoint me.

I was going to replace Staff Of Domination with it
if not in paper (maybe too) then at least online

[ZEROorDIE]

@darkghost did you really let vesuva get FoW'd against bug? Or was that a typo?

Went 3-0 Monday

R1 storm 2-1
Chalice on 1 and Trini shut him down game 1
Game 2 a turn 2 tendrils for 22 got me
Game three he turn 2 empty for 16 goblins and I forge for platinum angel then proceed to flood the board with fatties.

R2 omni
G1 s&t the Trini slow him down long enough to blightsteel
G2 turn 2 God hand for him. I die with chalice at 1 and an ancient tomb that I annihilate.
G3 he keeps a 1 lander with 2 FoW and a daze and doesn't draw another land. I beat down with 2 lodestone

R3 miracles
Don't remember as much about this match both games were grindy but I beat him 2-0. We both know what the other us playing and have faced off a lot.

It's seems weird to me, my local meta is about 20 guys, lots of delver variants, omni, miracles, d&t/
Blade variants, storm, elves and occasional high tide, goblins or burn. People are developing The Fear for this deck, I feel like we don't have a lot of bad matchups, but we also don't have a lot of good matchups. I've been playing it since Feb, and after dropping thran dynamo, my win percentage and consistency have gone up. Also, you can't be afraid to Mulligan aggressively, in two of the wins above(one of which was against omni, one against miracles) I mulliganned to four, usually keeping 2-3 lands and a lock piece or two. Trini wrecks omni as well as ensnaring bridge.

List is this: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=80728

-2 thran dynamo
-1 vesuva
-1 platinum emperion

+2 city of traitors
+1 coercive portal
+1 karn liberated

Edit: going forward I have moved karn from main to the side, pulled duplicant entirely and will be playing one spine of ish sha main

[darkgh0st]

@ZEROorDIE: Haha, typo. Thank you for pointing that out. That was a Wurmcoil I played that got countered. Gna correct that.

[Rikter]

@darkghost did you really let vesuva get FoW'd against bug? Or was that a typo?

Went 3-0 Monday

R1 storm 2-1
Chalice on 1 and Trini shut him down game 1
Game 2 a turn 2 tendrils for 22 got me
Game three he turn 2 empty for 16 goblins and I forge for platinum angel then proceed to flood the board with fatties.

R2 omni
G1 s&t the Trini slow him down long enough to blightsteel
G2 turn 2 God hand for him. I die with chalice at 1 and an ancient tomb that I annihilate.
G3 he keeps a 1 lander with 2 FoW and a daze and doesn't draw another land. I beat down with 2 lodestone

R3 miracles
Don't remember as much about this match both games were grindy but I beat him 2-0. We both know what the other us playing and have faced off a lot.

It's seems weird to me, my local meta is about 20 guys, lots of delver variants, omni, miracles, d&t/
Blade variants, storm, elves and occasional high tide, goblins or burn. People are developing The Fear for this deck, I feel like we don't have a lot of bad matchups, but we also don't have a lot of good matchups. I've been playing it since Feb, and after dropping thran dynamo, my win percentage and consistency have gone up. Also, you can't be afraid to Mulligan aggressively, in two of the wins above(one of which was against omni, one against miracles) I mulliganned to four, usually keeping 2-3 lands and a lock piece or two. Trini wrecks omni as well as ensnaring bridge.

List is this: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=80728

-2 thran dynamo
-1 vesuva
-1 platinum emperion

+2 city of traitors
+1 coercive portal
+1 karn liberated

Edit: going forward I have moved karn from main to the side, pulled duplicant entirely and will be playing one spine of ish sha main

Looks like a good showing. I also took duplicant out of my 75, I really only wanted him for sneak and show. Spine is an incredibly useful card to have in the main deck. I'm toying with the idea of swapping out spine from the main with contagion engine though to have a board wipe instead of a targeted strike. Delver has been all over the large tour eys in the NE, and with gryxis pyro taking Eternal Weekend I expect to see more lists where engine will be much better than spine. Plus it costs less.

Myr battlesphere is the other card I want to get into the main I think, especially if spine goes, because he would fill spines role of blowing up walkers, plus he blows out maze of ith.

[bruizar]

I know I know I know, very conditional and not an artifact but... I still think this is good value with DTT and DRS around.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/78/608/635764767876560769.png

Too bad we can't sack for Kuldotha Forgemaster


And a cheaper Bosh, Iron Golem:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/78/606/635764764878995603.png

Probably worst than Dismember
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/78/614/635764783540727526.png

Thus far, only crap :-)

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

I've seen Dismember get played but with Ancient Tomb the life payment was too steep .

I think colourless spells for higher mana should remove two creatures at once, like Dust to Dust or Ashes To Ashes or Rack And Ruin

some card like Duplicant or Triskelion would be good

I think Titan's Presence will get played depending on the meta .

I know it's kind of bad though.

[Zirath]

Titan's Presence is the exact kind of card MUD theoretically wants for certain situations. It means there can be MUD lists that aren't combo oriented.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

Titan's Presence is the exact kind of card MUD theoretically wants for certain situations. It means there can be MUD lists that aren't combo oriented.

Goblin Welder no Chalice / Trinisphere list with Daretti could come back . Maybe .

There was just a Deck Tech posted today of a MUD player at an invitational


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7985jxRWBfc

My new list post-Battle For Zendikar

Cutting the Staff Of Domination and Lightning Greaves.. the greaves is in here to combo with Staff. so I am cutting these two cards .

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Grim Monolith
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Ugin The Spirit Dragon
2 Coercive Portal
2 Hedron Archive
1 Spine of Ish Sah

[Rikter]

I know I know I know, very conditional and not an artifact but... I still think this is good value with DTT and DRS around.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/78/608/635764767876560769.png

Too bad we can't sack for Kuldotha Forgemaster


And a cheaper Bosh, Iron Golem:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/78/606/635764764878995603.png

Probably worst than Dismember
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/78/614/635764783540727526.png

Thus far, only crap :-)

I would prefer triskelion to blightherder, who only gives tokens if the other guy has delved.

The titans presence is the most playable of the bunch, but I think it's worse than dismember. Yeah, the 4 life sucks, but that's oftentimes preferable to the alternative. Even off of ancient tomb its still better usually. Presence is also a much worse topdeck because its conditional, and it costs more Mana to boot.

[bruizar]

Barrage Titan interests me the most of all these cards. Wurmcoil Engine and even Phyrexian Dreadnought are sweet sacrifice targets. Some will say win more, I'd say just something to speed up the clock.

[Rikter]

Barrage Titan interests me the most of all these cards. Wurmcoil Engine, Moltensteel Dragon and even Phyrexian Dreadnought are sweet sacrifice targets. Some will say win more, I'd say just something to speed up the clock.

I think you'd definitely have to build around him in particular, but I believe in red control shell, you could use him as a wincon. He'd be in a deck sporting main deck bloodmoons or ensnaring bridge

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

I think you'd definitely have to build around him in particular, but I believe in red control shell, you could use him as a wincon. He'd be in a deck sporting main deck bloodmoons or ensnaring bridge

That was the card I was thinking of when I mentioned Goblin Welder .

[L10]

Played at the Legacy IQ today. I went 6-3-0. My wins and losses were:
Wins: OmniTell, Burn, Dump Truck (4c Loam), Death and Taxes, Shardless BUG, Lands (Yay!)
Losses: OmniTell x2, UR Painter

I literally lost all of my notes (and my dice bag), and I have a terrible memory. I lost to both OmniTell decks literally a turn before I can go for the win. The match-up seems to sway whoever is on play. I think I have enough hate in my SB. I just need to figure a way to make my deck more explosive than it currently is.

Against UR Painter, they did a deck check on my list, and I forgot to list Spine of Ish Sah from my SB, so I took a game loss. He pitched a Polluted Delta to Force of Will (with painter out) to counter my Metalworker and managed to mill me in turn 3. He also has Goblin Welder out and showed me his Dack Fayden when the match ended. For a second, I almost thought he way playing a Vintage deck. lol I took a look at his list and it was pretty awesome build. It would have probably kicked my Metalworker butt anyways. lol

I finally beat Lands! Having access to two Pithing Needle (thanks to BlackHawkX9) from the SB and two Crucible of Worlds in the MD helped me against this match-up, big time. On Game 3, I managed a Turn 2 Metalworker. On his Turn 2, he managed to bring out Marit Lage. On my Turn 3, I tapped Metalworker, showed all my artifacts, and bring down Steel Hellkite, Forgemaster, and two irrelevant artifacts. I blocked with the Steel Hellkite and fetched for Platinum Emperion with Forgemaster the next turn. Emperion (protected with Greaves) was an All-Star, as he prevent both Marit Lage beats and Grove activation. Eventually, I managed to bring out Ugin (-0 to kill Marit Lage), ultimate with Ugin, and won at a board state with Blightsteel, a couple Wurmcoil Engines, a couple Lodestone Golems, and all his lands destroyed.

The two Voltaic Keys and three Lightning Greaves are still my favorite cards in this deck. Twice today, I managed to make over 20 mana because of Voltaic Key and Metalworker on turn 3. Lightning Greaves is just nuts because having the ability to activate Metalworker or Forgemaster, or get to swing with Steel Hellkite or Blightsteel Colossus, on the same turn makes a world of a difference.

This is my list:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/15-08-15-zjl-metalworker/

I think my weakest slots in this list are my two Phyexian Metamorphs. I might replace them with an extra Spine of Ish Sah and Platinum Angel.

[movingtonewao]

whats the first card you name with phyrexian revoker against nicfit? is it top or deed?

[L10]

Not all Nic Fits shells plays with Deed or Top. But if I know they have Deed, that's what I would blind pick all the time. Having another Revoker on Top is just value. Even then, I may still go with Deed on my second Revoker. It is really a matter if I can jam down a threat early, and our threats are bigger, better, and scarier.

I like Barrage Titan with Scuttling Doom Engine.

[Mockingbird]

I know I know I know, very conditional and not an artifact but... I still think this is good value with DTT and DRS around.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/78/608/635764767876560769.png

Too bad we can't sack for Kuldotha Forgemaster


And a cheaper Bosh, Iron Golem:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/78/606/635764764878995603.png

Probably worst than Dismember
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/78/614/635764783540727526.png

Thus far, only crap :-)If we're going to talk Eldrazi, I feel like the one worth mentioning would be the new Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger (http://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/gf/Ulamog%252C%2Bthe%2BCeaseless%2BHunger%2B%255BBFZ%255D.jpg). Double Vindicate for a cast trigger is huge tempo Swing, even more if someone tries to Force of Will it, then the opponent is pretty much out of the game if they don't answer him in three turns (two swings will either be 20 damage or 40 cards); even less if Greaves is involved. It's not Emrakul good, but it seems like an opponent nightmare.

[movingtonewao]

So you are saying ulamog can now replace blightsteel colossus as a wincon? or did you have something else in mind.

[Jakobian]

Played at the Legacy IQ today. I went 6-3-0. My wins and losses were:
Wins: OmniTell, Burn, Dump Truck (4c Loam), Death and Taxes, Shardless BUG, Lands (Yay!)
Losses: OmniTell x2, UR Painter

I literally lost all of my notes (and my dice bag), and I have a terrible memory. I lost to both OmniTell decks literally a turn before I can go for the win. The match-up seems to sway whoever is on play. I think I have enough hate in my SB. I just need to figure a way to make my deck more explosive than it currently is.

Against UR Painter, they did a deck check on my list, and I forgot to list Spine of Ish Sah from my SB, so I took a game loss. He pitched a Polluted Delta to Force of Will (with painter out) to counter my Metalworker and managed to mill me in turn 3. He also has Goblin Welder out and showed me his Dack Fayden when the match ended. For a second, I almost thought he way playing a Vintage deck. lol I took a look at his list and it was pretty awesome build. It would have probably kicked my Metalworker butt anyways. lol

I finally beat Lands! Having access to two Pithing Needle (thanks to BlackHawkX9) from the SB and two Crucible of Worlds in the MD helped me against this match-up, big time. On Game 3, I managed a Turn 2 Metalworker. On his Turn 2, he managed to bring out Marit Lage. On my Turn 3, I tapped Metalworker, showed all my artifacts, and bring down Steel Hellkite, Forgemaster, and two irrelevant artifacts. I blocked with the Steel Hellkite and fetched for Platinum Emperion with Forgemaster the next turn. Emperion (protected with Greaves) was an All-Star, as he prevent both Marit Lage beats and Grove activation. Eventually, I managed to bring out Ugin (-0 to kill Marit Lage), ultimate with Ugin, and won at a board state with Blightsteel, a couple Wurmcoil Engines, a couple Lodestone Golems, and all his lands destroyed.

The two Voltaic Keys and three Lightning Greaves are still my favorite cards in this deck. Twice today, I managed to make over 20 mana because of Voltaic Key and Metalworker on turn 3. Lightning Greaves is just nuts because having the ability to activate Metalworker or Forgemaster, or get to swing with Steel Hellkite or Blightsteel Colossus, on the same turn makes a world of a difference.

This is my list:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/15-08-15-zjl-metalworker/

I think my weakest slots in this list are my two Phyexian Metamorphs. I might replace them with an extra Spine of Ish Sah and Platinum Angel.


I put an emrakul in my sideboard to help vs. painter decks because it was a rough matchup for me, and it secondarily helps out vs omnitell (sometimes they have to show and tell in emrakul, and if you put one in as well, you get to attack first). It's only 1 sideboard slot so it's not going to wreck your other matchups. It turns painter into a winnable game because they don't know the emrakul comes in, so they don't board graveyard removal. I've also sideboarded emrakul in against high tide for the same reason, and I've won 2 or 3 games vs omnishow and sneaky show because of it.

Just some food for thought.

[movingtonewao]

I have more miscellanous questions after reading the sideboarding guide on pg138:

1) against bant, what do we name with revokers? (what exactly is bant anyway)

2) against punishing jund, what are our best cards against them?

3) whats the difference between 'bant' and 'stoneblade' (in the sideboarding guide)? why are the sideboarding plans different for these? why do we take out platinum against both?

4) why sb in revoker against burn? just for extra blockers in the early game?

5) what do we name with revoker against grixis control? I've seen varying builds running some/none of: dack fayden, jace tms, jace vryns prodigy, tasigur etc

6) how do we fight aggro loam

thanks in advance and sorry for noob questions (if they are noob questions).

[mgoldman]

So you are saying ulamog can now replace blightsteel colossus as a wincon? or did you have something else in mind.

You can't fetch ulamog with forgemaster, which is the reason blightsteel is in there to begin with.

[L10]

@Mockingbird, I think our sweet spot is around 8CMC. 10CMC can be out of reach, especially since it doesn't contribute to Metalworker and Lodestone Golem can negatively impact it. I have a feeling that Blightsteel Colossus may just be easier to cast because of this, and Blightsteel Colossus is already one heck of a win-con that may be fetched by Forgemaster. It is also fighting Ugin over the non-artifact slots, in which I am also skeptical if it is better. Either way, I want an 8CMC Eldrazi that is decent.

@Jakobian, thanks for the Emrakul tip. I may just replace a Phyrexian Metamorph over it against OmniShow and the other match-ups you mentioned. I think our game vs. mono-red painter is 55/45 in our favor. Them having an active Welder or a early combo can be rough, but having several Revoker/Needle and Ratchet Bombs from the SB helps this match-up quite a bit. Also, sometimes I just win quicker.


1) against bant, what do we name with revokers? (what exactly is bant anyway)
If you see a deck with Knight of the Reliquary and Brainstorm, it's Bant. Here is a sample list:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16137&iddeck=120486
I'd probably name Qasali Pridemage in the early game. In the late-mid game, if I have to threats protected, I'd go with Knight of the Reliquary, Jace, or Jitte, depending on the situation.

2) against punishing jund, what are our best cards against them?
Platinum Emperion. Other than Lili, they literally can't deal with Platinum Emperion. It also turns off their Punishing Fire / Grove combo. Revoker/Needle is good to bring in against Lili. Staff of Nin is also good because this tends to be a grindy match-up and card advantage is key. Staff of Nin also harasses Lili and Dark Confidant.

3) whats the difference between 'bant' and 'stoneblade' (in the sideboarding guide)? why are the sideboarding plans different for these?
Bant is more of a tempo deck with high impact creatures utility for low CMC that tends to favor the mid-game. Stoneblade is more of a control deck that aims to ride Batterskull or TNN/Clique+Jitte to victory that tends to favor the long-game.
why do we take out platinum against both?
At 8CMC, Sundering Titan is more of a blowout since it normally guarantees to destroy three lands. If they decide to swords Sundering Titan, they may not have the resources to bounce back to the game.

4) why sb in revoker against burn? just for extra blockers in the early game?
Grim Lavamancer is an option but I personally don't side Revokers in.

5) what do we name with revoker against grixis control? I've seen varying builds running some/none of: dack fayden, jace tms, jace vryns prodigy, tasigur etc
I'd sandbag the Revoker until something relevant comes up.

6) how do we fight aggro loam
Aggro Loam as in the 4c Good Stuff from Lille? Take out the Chalices for Needle/Revoker against Lili. Needle is good about Wasteland and Revoker is good against Mox Diamond. Casting a Sundering Titan is a huge irreversible blowout.

[darkgh0st]

Anthony Lowry did very poorly with his list.

[Rikter]

Anthony Lowry did very poorly with his list.

I'm looking over his list now, that sideboard is weak. Having 5 1cmc drops in a chalice deck is bad news.

[movingtonewao]

Page 152, Troll_ov_grimness's post

[darkgh0st]

No, that was his list for post-BFZ.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2015-08-28&end_date=2015-08-28&event_ID=21&city=Somerset&state=NJ&t_num=1&limit=8&start_num=8&start_num=16&limit=8

But by all means, he might have made a lot of play mistakes.

[movingtonewao]

6) how do we fight aggro loam
Aggro Loam as in the 4c Good Stuff from Lille? Take out the Chalices for Needle/Revoker against Lili. Needle is good about Wasteland and Revoker is good against Mox Diamond. Casting a Sundering Titan is a huge irreversible blowout.

Are chalices bad against them? I was thinking Chalice on x=2 would be a blowout against them. Would trinisphere have less relevance here? Would bringing in crucible of worlds or ratchet bomb be of any help in this MU?

[L10]

I don't like setting Chalice @2 on my list because it shuts off my Lightning Greaves x3, Grim Monolith x4, and Revoker x2-x4. Your list may vary. Chalice is strong @2, yes.

[movingtonewao]

how would you board against aggro loam using your list :) just -3 cotv, +3 needle/revoker?

[L10]

Yup, I normally just straight up trade -4 CotV, +4 Revoker/Needle for my list. If I were to put in the extra Sundering Titan or Platinum Emperion, I'd have to cut Blightsteel, but I think I'd rather just have Blightsteel. Sundering Titan, funnily enough, can also grow Knight to be very scary, so I don't even think I want the second one if the game goes long.

[Rikter]

No, that was his list for post-BFZ.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2015-08-28&end_date=2015-08-28&event_ID=21&city=Somerset&state=NJ&t_num=1&limit=8&start_num=8&start_num=16&limit=8

But by all means, he might have made a lot of play mistakes.

He may have for sure, but I don't like his list and I don't think his sideboard is great. He has factories but no wasteland or crucible; I think you need some wastelands for sure, and I'd prefer crucible in a list running that many factories, plus the wastelands that should realistically be in there. He has the revoker main, staff of nin AND staff of domination (I generally prefer no revokers main and one of the staffs), only 1 planeswalker (prefer a 2nd Ugin but Karn is OK too) and 2 slots in the 75 dedicated to sundering titan.

The only targeted removal in the deck is a 1 of staff of nin; I don't think this is nearly enough. I've been trending the opposite direction, with cards like dismember, triskelion, and contagion clasp and engine, which have been very good. My only issues with that configuration have been mana related, mostly surrounding city of traitors which I am still up in the air about.

[darkgh0st]

He may have for sure, but I don't like his list and I don't think his sideboard is great. He has factories but no wasteland or crucible; I think you need some wastelands for sure, and I'd prefer crucible in a list running that many factories, plus the wastelands that should realistically be in there. He has the revoker main, staff of nin AND staff of domination (I generally prefer no revokers main and one of the staffs), only 1 planeswalker (prefer a 2nd Ugin but Karn is OK too) and 2 slots in the 75 dedicated to sundering titan.

The only targeted removal in the deck is a 1 of staff of nin; I don't think this is nearly enough. I've been trending the opposite direction, with cards like dismember, triskelion, and contagion clasp and engine, which have been very good. My only issues with that configuration have been mana related, mostly surrounding city of traitors which I am still up in the air about.

It was an episode of "MUD: what not to do".

I like the explosiveness of the Sol Lands and Vesuva despite their drawbacks.
Mishra's Factory is not enough to replace Wasteland, especially a full set of it.
Not enough spot/board removals.
Spellskite is a narrow answer.

[Rikter]

It was an episode of "MUD: what not to do".

I like the explosiveness of the Sol Lands and Vesuva despite their drawbacks.
Mishra's Factory is not enough to replace Wasteland, especially a full set of it.
Not enough spot/board removals.
Spellskite is a narrow answer.

Too true. I like factory only in a crucible list that also runs wastelands, not in place of wasteland. Waste isn't fantastic vs. the delver lists, but it can do work there. I mostly use it to knock out Chasm/Depths/Stage/Maze of Ith in lands, Karakas in the lists that play it because recursive anything needs to stop, and Infects man lands. If you have the other guy under a 3sphere then wasteland becomes an uncounterable time walk.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

It was an episode of "MUD: what not to do".

I like the explosiveness of the Sol Lands and Vesuva despite their drawbacks.
Mishra's Factory is not enough to replace Wasteland, especially a full set of it.
Not enough spot/board removals.
Spellskite is a narrow answer.

His mana base is fine . Cutting Wasteland completely is a good choice . Mishra's Factory is there mainly to activate Forgemaster with.

Phyrexian Revoker should be another Ugin .

Trinisphere and Platinum Emperion I like to cut for another draw engine either Staff Of Nin or Coercive Portal

(Platinum Emperion is an 8 drop, I like to lower the top end of my deck)

Wurmcoil Engine is a 6 drop and there should be another of him or another Steel Hellkite .

I like his mana base

his deck list is cool I think but I think he's underestimating the grindyness of the deck.

I'd be playing a Spellskite or two if I owned any fyi and cut the Staff Of Domination combo, which makes Lightning Greaves a lot worse . My opponent very often casts Swords in response to the Greaves.

[darkgh0st]

Without Wastelands, your answers to Lands is very narrow, relying on Pithing Needle or Bridge. Wasteland may end up delaying lands enough for you to win.

[MGB]

If you're having problems with Lands, maybe playing some Tsabo's Web in the deck could help?

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

Without Wastelands, your answers to Lands is very narrow, relying on Pithing Needle or Bridge. Wasteland may end up delaying lands enough for you to win.

I wouldn't Waste that deck if I could I would wait until I had Chalice at 2 at least.

[MGB]

Another thing that would be interesting in the sideboard is Winter Orb. Has some applications vs. Miracles AND Lands. You can break the symmetry of the Orb with Metalworker and just Sol-Lands themselves.

[Rikter]

If you're having problems with Lands, maybe playing some Tsabo's Web in the deck could help?

Web is a good sideboard card for that matchup. I also bring it in vs death and taxes and infect.

[MTGeezy]

So I've read over quite a bit in these last few pages. I recently kind of got out of legacy for awhile do to financial reasons and the fact that I wanted to focus on modern for a bit, but I'm deciding to re enter as i really miss this format. Anyways, one deck I've always wanted to play cause it just seems like it fits my play style, is MUD. I've started trading for a good portion of the pieces, but I am still confused as too what a good standard list is right now cause it seems like everyone in this thread has different lists and reasons as to why theirs is more preferred than others but no one else can agree on that.

So basically what I am asking, is does anyone have an agreeable, standard list that I can build off of so that I know what I'm doing for the most part?

Thank you!

[BlackHawkX9]

So I've read over quite a bit in these last few pages. I recently kind of got out of legacy for awhile do to financial reasons and the fact that I wanted to focus on modern for a bit, but I'm deciding to re enter as i really miss this format. Anyways, one deck I've always wanted to play cause it just seems like it fits my play style, is MUD. I've started trading for a good portion of the pieces, but I am still confused as too what a good standard list is right now cause it seems like everyone in this thread has different lists and reasons as to why theirs is more preferred than others but no one else can agree on that.

So basically what I am asking, is does anyone have an agreeable, standard list that I can build off of so that I know what I'm doing for the most part?

Thank you!

So, for the most part, your base list will be 4x metalworker, 4x forgemaster, 4x lodestone, 2-3 wurmcoil engines, 4x grim monolith, 4x chalice of the void, 3-4x trinisphere, 1x blightsteel and/or staff of domination, and 24 lands usually being 7-8 soul lands, 4 cloudpost, 4x glimmerpost, 2-4 vesuva, and all the rest of the slots are pretty flexible, hence everyone's different variations.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

So I've read over quite a bit in these last few pages. I recently kind of got out of legacy for awhile do to financial reasons and the fact that I wanted to focus on modern for a bit, but I'm deciding to re enter as i really miss this format. Anyways, one deck I've always wanted to play cause it just seems like it fits my play style, is MUD. I've started trading for a good portion of the pieces, but I am still confused as too what a good standard list is right now cause it seems like everyone in this thread has different lists and reasons as to why theirs is more preferred than others but no one else can agree on that.

So basically what I am asking, is does anyone have an agreeable, standard list that I can build off of so that I know what I'm doing for the most part?

Thank you!

on the first page in the primer search the page for "As of Dragons Of Tarkir…" you'll find a list like this one
I think if you've never played the deck before at all it should look like this to start .

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion

4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

2 Lightning Greaves,
1 Spine of Ish Sah,
1 Staff of Domination,
1 Staff of Nin

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Vesuva

[BlackHawkX9]

So I've read over quite a bit in these last few pages. I recently kind of got out of legacy for awhile do to financial reasons and the fact that I wanted to focus on modern for a bit, but I'm deciding to re enter as i really miss this format. Anyways, one deck I've always wanted to play cause it just seems like it fits my play style, is MUD. I've started trading for a good portion of the pieces, but I am still confused as too what a good standard list is right now cause it seems like everyone in this thread has different lists and reasons as to why theirs is more preferred than others but no one else can agree on that.

So basically what I am asking, is does anyone have an agreeable, standard list that I can build off of so that I know what I'm doing for the most part?

Thank you!

Also, nobody is really going to agree on 1 absolute best list, because they are all tweaking their lists to fit the local meta that they play in. You're going to play slightly different lists depending on your usual matchups.

[Rikter]

This is the list I am taking to a 150 man event in another 2 weeks. Ill break it down for you, with commentary on what is usually seen in these lists, which elements are more rogue than others, etc. followed by some other common cards you might consider.


4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker

These cards are straight up 4 ofs in a standard metalworker/forgemaster shell, period.

3 Wurmcoil Engine

Some number of Wurmcoil Engines should always be in the deck. I prefer 3, especially in a meta with delver lists. I've seen as many as 4, but never less than 2. Other people may only be playing 1, if they are they aren't showing up in the standings, so at least 2.


1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Triskelion

You will need a forgemaster package, Blightsteel will always be in it. Most lists will supplement Blightsteel with 2-3 other targets. Platinum Emperion or Angel are common ones (I prefer Emperion main since he is harder to kill), Sundering Titan is another, but I've soured on him and don't play him. Steel Hellkite is a common one; he is easily castable, but I tutor for him too. Simply put, Hellkite is insane, he flies, he pumps, he blows up boards. Triskelion and Myr Battlesphere are rogueish options that I play. Trike is great for shooting a bunch of small idiots, shooting planeswalkers, and failing those he is still a 4/4 construct that can get in for 7 in one turn. Battlesphere is a new addition to my list. He is a construct, and he puts out multiple artifacts which can be good with Forgemaster, good for blocking etc. Also, he serves as planeswalker removal (his ability can be redirected), and he also gets through maze of ith (his triggered ability isn't combat damage, you are likely to face lands in the upper brackets at big events). He is conceivably a 16 damage shot to the face if he goes in unblocked and you have your 4 tokens.


2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Ugin is, simply put, ridiculous. Are you behind on board when he resolves? Now you aren't! His bolt is useful as well. Some people split 1/1 with Ugin and Karn. Ugin is just so ridiculous that I can't condone running the split.



4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
3 Wasteland

You will want some combination of these lands. The flex spots are basically Wasteland and Cavern, with at least 2 Vesuva. You want to run at least 10 posts. Mishra's Factory is pretty rogue these days, but I could see running Factory, Wasteland and Crucible as a package. Total lands should be 23-24.

4 Chalice of the Void
You will play 4x chalice main, no discussion.
4 Grim Monolith
Ive seen budget type lists running Thran Dynamo. I don't like it. You need 4x mana rocks though to ramp.

1 Lightning Greaves
This is a flex spot; I prefer having it in, I've actually Forgemastered for it. Enables broken openers, protects your dudes.

1 Staff Of Domination
Some people play staff of Nin instead. I prefer this because I think it is more versatile, and it combos with Metalworker.

4 Trinisphere
I see people only running 3, which I think is pretty eh. I like the full 4, helps vs Omnitell. Usually my first card out though.

Sideboard

1 Ratchet Bomb
Pretty common card, kills flipped delvers, elves, Nimble Goose. Versatile if a little slow. Faster than Keg.

1 Spine of Ish Sah
I used to maindeck this, but people are going wider now. Versatile with Forgemaster for decks with problem targets.

1 Contagion Engine
This comes in vs elves, pyromancer decks, rug delver, infect, death and taxes. Somewhat rogue but very powerful

2 Contagion Clasp
I've never seen anyone play this but me. Its great vs decks with 1T idiots that must die fast (Revoker, infect crap, lackey)

3 Faerie Macabre
More rogue tech. I prefer this to Crypt or Relic because it can be turn 0'd, it can't be countered, and it's harder to play around.

1 Tsabo's Web
Used to be rogue, the rise of Lands has made this a common card to see. Good vs infect and DnT as well.

2 Phyrexian Revoker
Standard card, to be brought in whenever you need to shut stuff down. Self explanatory.

1 Platinum Angel
I will usually swap him in for Platinum Emperion when I bring in my dismember package, or add him straight up vs burn.

3 Dismember
Rogue in legacy, standard in Vintage. The life loss can hurt, but there is just too much stuff that needs to die fast, off 2 mana.


Some other common cards:

Pithing Needle: I don't want to play needle because it conflicts with chalice at 1, and chalice on 1 is good everywhere but the mirror. At it's best vs Lands, where revoker can't stop their land abilities.

Coercive Portal: I haven't tinkered much with this, but it's extra card draw, which we can use.

Ensnaring Bridge: I cut this from my board when Sneak and Show went the way of the dodo. Even vs Omnitell it isn't fantastic because they can release the ants. It's still a reasonable card I suppose, but rather than hide behind my bridge til I kill it with forgemaster and go off, I am trying to take the fight to them with removal.

Tormod's Crypt: Common card, I used to play it, but it can't be turn 0'd, it can be countered, and they see it coming. This would come in vs Lands and Reanimator. I have moved to Faerie Macabre, for surprise factor and uncounterability. Two cards will generally be enough. Crypt is better vs Dredge, but Legacy Dredge sucks and if I run into it I will do my best, oh well.

Grafdiggers Cage: This has all the problems of pithing needle since it's 1cmc, with the added bonus of shutting off your own forgemaster!


MUD lists are basically 90% identical, with the other 10% being tailored to personal play style and the meta. You have access to a lot of powerful sideboard cards, since many of them are artifacts.

[L10]

He is conceivably a 16 damage shot to the face if he goes in unblocked and you have your 4 tokens.
I hope you meant 12 damage, as 4 of the tokens as to be tapped for the trigger.


4 Trinisphere
I see people only running 3, which I think is pretty eh. I like the full 4, helps vs Omnitell. Usually my first card out though.
The way I feel about Trinisphere in general is pretty eh. Which is why I only have two copies in my MD. When I played 4, these are usually the first ones out too, which is why I decide to do it preemptively. Though, I am slowly realizing that having access to four in my 75 may be correct, so I might replace some numbers of Thorns for them. Against OmniTell in general, I prefer to tempo them out of the game with Thorns/Chalice and Lodestone Golems, and beat them before they can finish their combo, or at least go off the same turn. That doesn't work when they just have all the combo pieces one Ponder away.

[Rikter]

I hope you meant 12 damage, as 4 of the tokens as to be tapped for the trigger.


The way I feel about Trinisphere in general is pretty eh. Which is why I only have two copies in my MD. When I played 4, these are usually the first ones out too, which is why I decide to do it preemptively. Though, I am slowly realizing that having access to four in my 75 may be correct, so I might replace some numbers of Thorns for them. Against OmniTell in general, I prefer to tempo them out of the game with Thorns/Chalice and Lodestone Golems, and beat them before they can finish their combo, or at least go off the same turn. That doesn't work when they just have all the combo pieces one Ponder away.

Yes, my mistake on that it is 12. Haven't gotten to play with him yet, but even corrected its still good enough.

I'm debating using thorns instead of 3sphere, but you would lose more to storm and omni for sure.

[EmoPizza]

Regarding Grafdigger's cage: I'm pretty sure it's mostly for the elves MU. It stops GSZ and NO, which buys a lot of time and saves you from Reclamation Sage spam. Also won't stop you from Forging a Staff of Nin.

And is helpful vs Reanimator, Past in Flames, and Dredge.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G850A using Tapatalk

[L10]

I'm debating using thorns instead of 3sphere, but you would lose more to storm and omni for sure.
TES pretty popular here in the East Coast and a T1 Thorn is pretty strong against what could have been a T1/T2 hoard of Goblins, and is the reason why I picked up Thorns in the first place. Thorn and Lodestone Golem ability stacks, while 3sphere is static. In my 75, I have 4 Chalice, 4 Lodestone Golem, 2 Trinisphere, 3 Thorns, and 2 Revokers. I even board in the 3 Ratchet Bombs against TES so that have to go for the Tendrils route instead of ETW. My storm MU is pretty good to be honest. I think this goes back to tuning our decks to our meta.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

How do you play around/against Daze ? How do you anticipate it and adjust your play strategy? Should you at all?

thoughts?

[L10]

It depends. I generally feel that trying to play around Daze in the first three turns is a losing strategy because a) they probably don't have it, b) they probably have one of their 10/60 counter spells (4 Daze, 4 FoW, 1/2 Spell Pierce) anyways, c) losing a turn to sandbag a card vs. a tempo deck is a bad idea. No risk, no reward. Though, if my hand doesn't have much action anyways, delaying a turn to jam that chalice may not be a bad idea.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/78/654/635766111805283021.png

I guessed I asked for it. I wouldn't play this over Ugin. It doesn't seem bad either. I may have considered if it were an artifact. Trample is the key word this card is missing.

[sun tzu]

How do you play around/against Daze ? How do you anticipate it and adjust your play strategy? Should you at all?

thoughts?
the only time you would want to not 'play around' daze is when you have a clear line where you can bait it to make them -1 land, and gain an advantage from that. often times its better to wait for the 1 more mana, even if it means you will be closer to 0 life when you win the game. jamming nearly every spell vs daze, in my opinion, often times doesnt work out well.

force of will, however, you can just jam spells into that because they lose a bit of CA, and sometimes they will just run out of reactive ways to . just be sure you order your spells correctly so the force doesnt just end you. try to bait it out with trinispheres and the like. that being said there are also times where resolving that 1 trinisphere will ensure they cant counter your next game-ender. so, like most anything it all depends on the situation.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

Chalice of the Void is very valuable to stick. My thinking has been to get that card Force'd . But this also allows them to Brainstorm anyway.

[L10]

sun tzu, I think, has a more reasonable answer. Let's say my hand is on draw after a mulligan:
Ancient Tomb, Cavern of Souls, Grim Monolith, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem, Wasteland

I'd go:
Turn 1) Use Ancient Tomb -> Grim Monolith (as bait)
Turn 2) Use Ancient Tomb + Wasteland -> Trinisphere; Use Grim Monolith -> Chalice of the Void
Turn 3) Use Ancient Tomb + Wasteland + Cavern of Souls -> Lodestone Golem

At least this is the line I would take without knowing the top two cards. Order of operation is important, as is calculating risk/reward. Shocking yourself three times hurts. What I would not do is not jam anything Turn 1 to play around Daze (with this hand).

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

sun tzu, I think this is a more reasonable answer. Let's say my hand is on draw after a mulligan:
Ancient Tomb, Cavern of Souls, Grim Monolith, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem, Wasteland

I'd go:
Turn 1) Use Ancient Tomb -> Grim Monolith (as bait)
Turn 2) Use Ancient Tomb + Wasteland -> Trinisphere
Turn 3) Use Ancient Tomb + Wasteland -> Chalice of the Void; Use Grim Monolith + Cavern of Souls -> Lodestone Golem

At least this is the line I would take without knowing the top two cards. Order of operation is important, as is calculating risk/reward. Shocking yourself three times hurts. What I would not do is not jam anything Turn 1.

the Trinisphere is bait for Force of Will? why not just cast Chalice @ 1 . if they pierce , what I've seen some pros do is waste their land then go to 2nd main phase. this way you see if they have a Daze or not as well. Dunno lol.

[L10]

Actually, seeing my line again, I think it is better on turn 2 to use Grim Monolith to cast Trinisphere because if my Trinisphere hits, I can still cast Chalice @1 with my two lands. If my Trinisphere gets Forced, all I need is Ancient Tomb to cast Chalice of the Void and still have Wasteland to play around Daze if needed. If they have Pierce, I can just tap Ancient Tomb. If they have Daze, I can just tap Wasteland, and not lose life. Either ways, I rather put 3Sphere in the front lines because Chalice @1 hurts a lot more. I don't want to use Wasteland just yet because I really need pressure in the form of Lodestone Golem by Turn 3.

Also, against Grixis Delver or RUG Delver, if I happen to draw into a Wurmcoil Engine or Steel Hellkite on Turn 2, I'd just jam it down with Cavern of Souls and see if they can realistically deal with it. I don't think they can.

[sun tzu]

on the topic of RUG delver, do you guys feel the need to board into graveyard hate to neuter tarmogoyfs and hit their life from the loam if they run it (which can be super brutal with wasteland :C)

[darkgh0st]

on the topic of RUG delver, do you guys feel the need to board into graveyard hate to neuter tarmogoyfs and hit their life from the loam if they run it (which can be super brutal with wasteland :C)

Unless its a Relic of Progenitus (which is not normally used in MUD), you can forget siding grave hate for RUG. Its not effective enough and more so a waste of a slot.

[MGB]

So I'm thinking of building this deck for upcoming tournament(s). I have most of the manabase but if I want to go the non-12post route I have to get Wastelands. Can someone tell me how essential Wastelands are in this deck and whether or not I can play without them? The 23rd place list from Legacy Champs just played 12 post + Cities + Tombs + Factories. Is this the best manabase ATM for MUD or do you guys in here have differing opinions and why?

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

So I'm thinking of building this deck for upcoming tournament(s). I have most of the manabase but if I want to go the non-12post route I have to get Wastelands. Can someone tell me how essential Wastelands are in this deck and whether or not I can play without them? The 23rd place list from Legacy Champs just played 12 post + Cities + Tombs + Factories. Is this the best manabase ATM for MUD or do you guys in here have differing opinions and why?

PROS OF WASTELAND

Makes Lodestone Golem, and Trinisphere better . Without Wasteland in the deck there is little power left in the Lodestone Golem.

PROS OF CAVERN OF SOULS

You can win the game depending on the matchup with a Chalice of the Void set to their anticipated removal and the right haymaker for the job.. either Forgemaster for a combo piece or a Wurmcoil Engine usually etc . The downside is that for every thing you cast uncounterable, that is one counter in their hand they can use to hit Ugin, often a card that will win you the game. I'm not sure how strong my argument is on this.

PROS OF MISHRA'S FACTORY

A lot actually. Having Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void up, and Forgemaster'ing away a Factory or two, protects yourself to win with Blightsteel or Steel Hellkite . They are also good against planeswalkers, and against miracles will provide constant pressure.

You have to decide to cut one of these and a split between some of your Sol lands and 12 Posts.

How about something like this, using the deck tech as an example,

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland

You could even play like.. 1 Wasteland, or 1 Mishra's Factory. There is no rule against it. A singleton Factory for that time you want to sacrifice a land to Forgemaster. That's basically what they're in the deck for, situational cards are fine in 2s or singletons

something to be mindful of though,

CONS OF WASTELAND


This is not a tempo deck! Wasteland is a very difficult decision to make in playing this deck because you want 8 mana! Waste'ing your opponent is never a tempo play in this deck without particular board position and cards-in-play , then it can be good

[Jakobian]

PROS OF WASTELAND

Makes Lodestone Golem, and Trinisphere better . Without Wasteland in the deck there is little power left in the Lodestone Golem.

PROS OF CAVERN OF SOULS

You can win the game depending on the matchup with a Chalice of the Void set to their anticipated removal and the right haymaker for the job.. either Forgemaster for a combo piece or a Wurmcoil Engine usually etc . The downside is that for every thing you cast uncounterable, that is one counter in their hand they can use to hit Ugin, often a card that will win you the game. I'm not sure how strong my argument is on this.

PROS OF MISHRA'S FACTORY

A lot actually. Having Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void up, and Forgemaster'ing away a Factory or two, protects yourself to win with Blightsteel or Steel Hellkite . They are also good against planeswalkers, and against miracles will provide constant pressure.

You have to decide to cut one of these and a split between some of your Sol lands and 12 Posts.

How about something like this, using the deck tech as an example,

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland

You could even play like.. 1 Wasteland, or 1 Mishra's Factory. There is no rule against it. A singleton Factory for that time you want to sacrifice a land to Forgemaster. That's basically what they're in the deck for, situational cards are fine in 2s or singletons

something to be mindful of though,

CONS OF WASTELAND


This is not a tempo deck! Wasteland is a very difficult decision to make in playing this deck because you want 8 mana! Waste'ing your opponent is never a tempo play in this deck without particular board position and cards-in-play , then it can be good

This is a pretty good analysis. I definitely second the wasteland tempo play thing. I lent MUD to a friend because he wanted to try the deck out, and he used a wasteland to blow up my land on turn 2 and he didn't have 3sphere or lodestone golem in play. A few turns later he was still stuck on 3 mana and had 2 lodestone golems in hand. I said "Man it'd be nice if you had that wasteland for mana right now eh?" It was just a funsies game so don't think I'm some sort of monster. Wasteland is somewhat situational, but it's an awesome card to have in the 75 in multiples. I don't even know how many games I've won because of 3sphere and a single wasteland being enough to shut my opponent down.

[Jakobian]

So I'm thinking of building this deck for upcoming tournament(s). I have most of the manabase but if I want to go the non-12post route I have to get Wastelands. Can someone tell me how essential Wastelands are in this deck and whether or not I can play without them? The 23rd place list from Legacy Champs just played 12 post + Cities + Tombs + Factories. Is this the best manabase ATM for MUD or do you guys in here have differing opinions and why?

There's probably a reason he got 23rd place and not higher up the ranks. That reason may or may not be lack of wastelands. ;)

[MGB]

There's probably a reason he got 23rd place and not higher up the ranks. That reason may or may not be lack of wastelands. ;)

Where are all the other MUD decks with Wastelands that place in the top-32 of any 700+ person event?

[Jakobian]

Where are all the other MUD decks with Wastelands that place in the top-32 of any 700+ person event?

Limiting to 700+ player legacy events puts a pretty huge damper on any possible list I could produce since it limits it to grand prix events basically, but yeah... This guy:

http://mtgpulse.com/event/19855#286692

[movingtonewao]

I would like to question the relevance of karn liberated right now. When will it ever be better than a ugin/steel hellkite and for those of you who play him, why do you play him?

[kingtk3]

About Titan's Presence, what are your thoughts about it? 3 mana should not be too much for us and it exiles basically every creature given you have a creature in hand.

Do you think 2-3 copies will be played in some less comboish take on MUD?


Titan's Presence
3
Instant
As an additional cost to cast Titan's Presence, reveal a colorless creature card from your hand.

Exile target creature if its power is less than or equal to the revealed card's power.

Dust and memory are all that remain in Ulamog's wake.

[darkgh0st]

I would like to question the relevance of karn liberated right now. When will it ever be better than a ugin/steel hellkite and for those of you who play him, why do you play him?

I use Karn vs mirror, 12-post, Lands, Omni-Tell (still effective after showing Trinisphere when you can cast him), Reanimator, Miracles, and control decks that don't have too many creatures. He is still good even against tempo decks, but Ugin trumps him there. When on draw, I side him when i side out Trinispheres.

[L10]

@kingtk3, yeah, I am definitely going to try it out on a Stompy build. Maybe something like this:

//Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb

//Ramps
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith

//Threats
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Steel Hellkite
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Batterskull

//Ugin
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

//Utility
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Titan's Presence
2 Crucible of Worlds

I also want to add in Coercive Portal for some needed card advantage. The problem with this deck right now is that it lacks both card selection (Forgemaster) and card advantage (Staff of Nin), but also can't really afford not to draw into haymakers.

[Rikter]

I use Karn vs mirror, 12-post, Lands, Omni-Tell (still effective after showing Trinisphere when you can cast him), Reanimator, Miracles, and control decks that don't have too many creatures. He is still good even against tempo decks, but Ugin trumps him there. When on draw, I side him when i side out Trinispheres.

Karn can also be a reasonable sideboard option against decks that might bring in null rod. Against BUG Delver I would probably bring in one Karn for one Ugin, since they play null rod or use the graveyard. So for sure against BUG Delver and Lands.

[L10]

Limiting to 700+ player legacy events puts a pretty huge damper on any possible list I could produce since it limits it to grand prix events basically, but yeah... This guy:

http://mtgpulse.com/event/19855#286692

I just realized the guy's deck is nearly identical to mine. No Cloudpost either. But I don't think WotC ever showed the deck list outside of Top 8.

[Rikter]

I just realized the guy's deck is nearly identical to mine. No Cloudpost either. But I don't think WotC ever showed the deck list outside of Top 8.

It's an interesting list to me, removing the posts makes for a more stable, if less explosive version. He does have the crucible that I would want to see in a list running Factory and Wasteland. I also really like the 2nd Steel Hellkite, that card is the truth.

[MGB]

Guys, quick question:

Having noticed that Grixis Pyromancer (Delver and Delver-less) is probably the #1 deck in the format right now, AND that alot of decks in this format right now revolve around playing X/1 creatures of some kind (Mentor, Death n Taxes, Pyromancer, Delver)...

Would it be worthwhile to consider something that gives -1/-1 effects? I'm talking specifically the card Serrated Arrows. It's like Triskelion in that it can take out multiple X/1 creatures, but it comes down much earlier. I've played it before in Mono Blue Tron in Modern AND in Workshops in Vintage, and I think it might be even better here.

One of the problems I encountered with Serrated Arrows in Modern and Vintage was that it was shut down by popular hate (Stony Silence in Modern and Null Rod in Vintage). But there is practically no deck in Legacy that plays either Stony Silence or Null Rod effects, and at 4 CMC it's immune to Abrupt Decay, which makes Serrated Arrows a pretty resilient removal spell.

[Rikter]

Guys, quick question:

Having noticed that Grixis Pyromancer (Delver and Delver-less) is probably the #1 deck in the format right now, AND that alot of decks in this format right now revolve around playing X/1 creatures of some kind (Mentor, Death n Taxes, Pyromancer, Delver)...

Would it be worthwhile to consider something that gives -1/-1 effects? I'm talking specifically the card Serrated Arrows. It's like Triskelion in that it can take out multiple X/1 creatures, but it comes down much earlier. I've played it before in Mono Blue Tron in Modern AND in Workshops in Vintage, and I think it might be even better here.

One of the problems I encountered with Serrated Arrows in Modern and Vintage was that it was shut down by popular hate (Stony Silence in Modern and Null Rod in Vintage). But there is practically no deck in Legacy that plays either Stony Silence or Null Rod effects, and at 4 CMC it's immune to Abrupt Decay, which makes Serrated Arrows a pretty resilient removal spell.

I have played with arrows before, it was fine I guess but most of the things I needed to kill came down so fast that it was a little slow. Out of the board I run Contagion Clasp (2cmc, kills one guy, proliferate is randomly relevant) and Contagion Engine (board wipe, can kill bigger things) for little guys (I have dismember for bigger stuff) and in the main I have Triskelion (Construct synergy with caverns, hits walkers, higher potential burst damage, still a 4/4 that can pop off 7 dmg in one turn without ping targets), Myr Battlesphere (makes a bunch of 1/1's) and Steel Hellkite (also a board wipe). I would likely run staff of nin before I put arrows back in the deck, and get the extra card draw.

Also, people do play null rod in legacy, as a means to shut down Miracles, Death and Taxes, and equipment based decks. I usually see it in the Bug Delver lists, though I could surely see it in plenty of other delver lists. Revoker and needle are also things, and while no one is going to blind call serrated arrows, it can work out that you only get one activation.

[MGB]

I have played with arrows before, it was fine I guess but most of the things I needed to kill came down so fast that it was a little slow. Out of the board I run Contagion Clasp (2cmc, kills one guy, proliferate is randomly relevant) and Contagion Engine (board wipe, can kill bigger things) for little guys (I have dismember for bigger stuff) and in the main I have Triskelion (Construct synergy with caverns, hits walkers, higher potential burst damage, still a 4/4 that can pop off 7 dmg in one turn without ping targets), Myr Battlesphere (makes a bunch of 1/1's) and Steel Hellkite (also a board wipe). I would likely run staff of nin before I put arrows back in the deck, and get the extra card draw.

Also, people do play null rod in legacy, as a means to shut down Miracles, Death and Taxes, and equipment based decks. I usually see it in the Bug Delver lists, though I could surely see it in plenty of other delver lists. Revoker and needle are also things, and while no one is going to blind call serrated arrows, it can work out that you only get one activation.

Arrows is faster to come down than Triskelion and Staff. I mean, if you think Arrows are slow then I don't see the Trisk/Staff comparison being relevant.

And Arrows vs. Contagion Clasp... I think you have to weigh the mana cost vs. the potential for repeated usage. At its best Serrated Arrows can take out up to three creatures. That creates serious card advantage. It is 2 mana more expensive, but you do get roughly three times the effect.

[Rikter]

Arrows is faster to come down than Triskelion and Staff. I mean, if you think Arrows are slow then I don't see the Trisk/Staff comparison being relevant.

And Arrows vs. Contagion Clasp... I think you have to weigh the mana cost vs. the potential for repeated usage. At its best Serrated Arrows can take out up to three creatures. That creates serious card advantage. It is 2 mana more expensive, but you do get roughly three times the effect.

Triskelion is in the main as a forgemaster target that can also be hard cast. It is much more relevant across a lot of different matchups, if resolved it will always do something, and so the extra 2 mana is not an issue. It's presence in the main deck means I have outs to the X/1 decks, and those outs aren't dead if it turns out he isn't on the X/1 plan. Staff of Nin is more, but again, it would be a maindeck inclusion if I played it at all (I don't) and it has utility beyond the killing of X/1 that would lead me to include it in the main. I am happy to play a slightly more expensive card in the main if it is pretty much always a live card, and so I would, under no circumstances, ever play a card as narrow as serrated arrows in my main deck, even if it is 2 mana cheaper.

Regarding the sideboard, I am much more concerned with the X/1's that need to be killed quickly (revoker, infect guys, pyro, etc), and so I am happy to 1 for 1 off of a 2 mana clasp, or wipe the board off of a 6 mana contagion engine. If I have extra mana I can even play clasp and proliferate and kill an X/2 (mentor, flipped delver) in one shot, which is also relevant.

The trisk staff comparison, as well as the comparison to my sideboard cards, serve to illustrate exactly why I don't run serrated arrows. It isn't versatile enough to be in the main, and it isn't fast enough to be in the board, so it isn't good enough to be in my 75 anymore. Though, I guess I wasn't clear about this.

[potatodavid]

Serrated arrows is not a good card, whoever keeps suggesting it is either really bad at magic, or a tremendous troll to this forum. It seems like every 2 months someone suggests it as a viable option against decks we don't care about. Grixis makes elemental tokens. Probably want to lead with chalice/3-ball so your opponent stops cantriping so easily. Then game 2 forgemaster for contaigon engine or a 1 punch robot for the win

[MGB]

Triskelion is in the main as a forgemaster target that can also be hard cast. It is much more relevant across a lot of different matchups, if resolved it will always do something, and so the extra 2 mana is not an issue. It's presence in the main deck means I have outs to the X/1 decks, and those outs aren't dead if it turns out he isn't on the X/1 plan. Staff of Nin is more, but again, it would be a maindeck inclusion if I played it at all (I don't) and it has utility beyond the killing of X/1 that would lead me to include it in the main. I am happy to play a slightly more expensive card in the main if it is pretty much always a live card, and so I would, under no circumstances, ever play a card as narrow as serrated arrows in my main deck, even if it is 2 mana cheaper.

Regarding the sideboard, I am much more concerned with the X/1's that need to be killed quickly (revoker, infect guys, pyro, etc), and so I am happy to 1 for 1 off of a 2 mana clasp, or wipe the board off of a 6 mana contagion engine. If I have extra mana I can even play clasp and proliferate and kill an X/2 (mentor, flipped delver) in one shot, which is also relevant.

The trisk staff comparison, as well as the comparison to my sideboard cards, serve to illustrate exactly why I don't run serrated arrows. It isn't versatile enough to be in the main, and it isn't fast enough to be in the board, so it isn't good enough to be in my 75 anymore. Though, I guess I wasn't clear about this.

I would be looking at Serrated Arrows as strictly a sideboard card, of course. It does cost 2 mana more than Contagion Clasp, but I don't think the 2 mana matters nearly as much in this deck as it ordinarily would. In exchange for 2 mana more, you basically get *three* Contagion Clasps. I think paying 2 mana more for two more of the effect is a good bargain. Having an Arrows in play with 2+ counters on it basically ensures that your opponent can't profitably play any more Delvers or Pyromancers for the next few turns.

I think what you underestimate about Arrows is its ability to lock out topdecked X/1s, which Contagion Clasp cannot interact with. I've seen MUD players lose games in which they had killed an early Pyromancer, say, but opponent is able to topdeck a Delver or another Pyromancer in a topdeck situation (where both players are in that mode) and win from there. Serrated Arrows in play makes further Delver/Pyromancer draws dead and creates virtual card advantage.

[Rikter]

I would be looking at Serrated Arrows as strictly a sideboard card, of course. It does cost 2 mana more than Contagion Clasp, but I don't think the 2 mana matters nearly as much in this deck as it ordinarily would. In exchange for 2 mana more, you basically get *three* Contagion Clasps. I think paying 2 mana more for two more of the effect is a good bargain. Having an Arrows in play with 2+ counters on it basically ensures that your opponent can't profitably play any more Delvers or Pyromancers for the next few turns.

I think what you underestimate about Arrows is its ability to lock out topdecked X/1s, which Contagion Clasp cannot interact with. I've seen MUD players lose games in which they had killed an early Pyromancer, say, but opponent is able to topdeck a Delver or another Pyromancer in a topdeck situation (where both players are in that mode) and win from there. Serrated Arrows in play makes further Delver/Pyromancer draws dead and creates virtual card advantage.

Clasp is in the board specifically for infect and death and taxes, though it serves as splash hate against other decks.

I have tested extensively vs death and taxes and I can't even count the number of games that were lost to revoker + port or wasteland. It's really important to be able to kill revokers off one land drop.

Same vs infect, you need to deal with stuff turn 1 because you may not get another.

Having 4 Mana vs those decks is not a given. I have played arrows vs those decks, it is not fast enough. We have such good late game that my concern is just surviving the early game so I can land my haymakers, which is why I run clasp and dismember in the board

[L10]

It's an interesting list to me, removing the posts makes for a more stable, if less explosive version. He does have the crucible that I would want to see in a list running Factory and Wasteland. I also really like the 2nd Steel Hellkite, that card is the truth.
I have been playing with Forgemaster ever since Michael Bomholt** of Team Meandeck went second place at SCG Open in Indianapolis back in 2011. I can say without a shred of doubt that playing without Cloudpost is by far more explosive. In fact, the only time I played 12-Post was between the release of Khans of Tarkir to the banning of Treasure Cruise. This is because Treasure Cruise single-handedly pushed out many of the Wasteland decks out of the meta. Without Wasteland, 12-Post is amazing because it gives you a very stable mana base in the mid-to-late game without the need of Ancient Tomb to drop your bombs, while also gain you life with Glimmerpost. Since Wasteland was bad in the Treasure Cruise meta, I naturally dropped my Wasteland+Factory+Crucible package. Interestingly enough, the Cloudpost version of the deck IMO is a worse Forgemaster build because there are less targets to sacrifice. With Treasure Cruise banned since January, and Wastelands coming back, I immediately dropped the Cloudpost package because I didn't see the advantage in it anymore, and went back to my mana base pre-Treasure Cruise. Let's just use my data from the past two weeks as an example in the Legacy Champs (3-3), Legacy Champs Trials (6-1), and Summerset IQ (6-3) as to how explosive my deck is.

Wins: Burn x3; OmniTell x2; Dump Truck (4c Loam) x2; DnT x2; Ponder Miracles; TES; Painter; Elves; Shardless BUG, Lands
Losses: Lands x3; OmniTell x2, Mentor Miracles; UR Painter with Goblin Welder + Dack Fayden

In the past two weeks, I was able to
1) cast Ugin on Turn 2;
2,3,4) kill with Blightsteel on Turn 2 three times (and two others by turn 3);
5) generated over 18-20 mana by turn 3 three times;
6) played Lodestone Golem + Wurmcoil Engine by Turn 2

1) Against an Elves player
T1 - Play Lightning Greaves
T2- Cast Metalworker T2 + equip -> Ugin

2)
T1 - Ancient Tomb -> Lightning Greaves
T2 - Ancient Tomb + CoS -> Metalworker
Reveal 4 Artifacts
Play 3Sphere + Forgemaster;
Sac Metalworker + 3Sphere + Forgemaster
Search for Blightsteel, equip with Greaves, Swing

3) This was against a TES player Game 2
T1 - City of Traitors -> Grim Monlith -> Voltaic Key -> Grim Monolith -> Forgemaster
T2 - Play Thorn with City of Traitors
Sac Thorn + Grim x2 for Blightsteel
Play Darksteel Citadel, Sac City, Untap Forgemaster with Key
Sac Key, Citadel, and Forgemaster for Greaves
Equip Greaves to Blightsteel, swing

4)
T1 - Ancient Tomb -> Grim Monolith -> Metalworker
T2 - Tap Metalworker to reveal 4 artifact (8 mana)
Play Key to untap Metalworker (6 mana)
Tap Metalworker to reveal 3 Artifacts (12 mana)
Play CoS on Golem -> Blightsteel
Play Greaves with Ancient Tomb
Swing with Blightsteel

5) Done this three times over the past two weeks, but the story is about the same
T1 - Voltaic Key
T2 - Metalworker
T3 - Tap Metalworker twice with Key revealing 5 artifacts (19 mana)
Play Lodestone Golem x3 + Steel Hellkite

6)
T1 - Ancient Tomb -> Grim Monolith -> Key -> Lodestone Golem
T2 - City of Traitors -> Untap Grim Monolith -> Wurmcoil Engine

This all happened in the past two weeks. And it's the way I prefer to play Forgemaster. I don't think I have ever done any of that by Turn 2 or Turn 3 with Cloudpost. My deck plays with three Lightning Greaves and two Voltaic Keys because my intent of this deck is to be extremely aggressive and combo oriented.

Anyways, I like Takumi Sugiyama's deck because we basically came to the same conclusion. Our MD is only different by two cards.

** http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=5592&iddeck=40473
My deck: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/15-08-15-zjl-metalworker/
Legacy Champs experience: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=900169#post900169
Somerset Experience: : http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=901376#post901376

[movingtonewao]

Karn can also be a reasonable sideboard option against decks that might bring in null rod. Against BUG Delver I would probably bring in one Karn for one Ugin, since they play null rod or use the graveyard. So for sure against BUG Delver and Lands.

Speaking of BUG delver, whats good to take out against them?

My current plan is to bring in 2 revoker (to name DRS), 1 trinisphere (up to 4) and 1 ratchet bomb and take out 4 lodestone golems. does this sound reasonable?

[sun tzu]

has anyone tried something like this approach?

i have used a few super strong 1 drops instead of using chalice of the void. pithing needle names wasteland, and you hopefully ramp fast and go a traditional forgemaster approach. coercive portal is there to beat 1 for 1 answer-type decks that arent INSANELY fast where the extra draw wouldnt help. sometimes landing even 1 portal can win in my experience.



// Lands
4 [RLM] Vesuva
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [RLM] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
3 [PRE] Wurmcoil Engine
4 [SOM] Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 [UD] Metalworker
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [MBS] Blightsteel Colossus
1 [ARC] Sundering Titan

// Spells
4 [CNS] Coercive Portal
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [M10] Pithing Needle
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [MBS] Spine of Ish Sah
1 [M14] Trading Post

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 4 [M15] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
SB: 1 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 4 [NPH] Spellskite
SB: 1 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 1 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [DDD] Faerie Macabre

i honestly wonder if i even need the forgemaster's in here. i could probably just get away with using more solid creatures.

[BlackHawkX9]

Speaking of BUG delver, whats good to take out against them?

My current plan is to bring in 2 revoker (to name DRS), 1 trinisphere (up to 4) and 1 ratchet bomb and take out 4 lodestone golems. does this sound reasonable?

I board against BUG like this. In: 1x wurmcoil engine, 1x coercive portal, 1x crucible of worlds, 1x ugin, 1x steel hellkite, 1x batterskull, 1x trinisphere. Out: 4x chalice of the void, 1x platinum emperion, 1x staff of domination, 1x lodestone golem. . . BUG has a hard time dealing with wurmcoil engines. Chalice of the void is bad here, vs abrubt decay, and all BUG's focus on 2 drops. Just bring in the extra card draw, and drop threats. You'll outrun them, long before they kill you with deathrite shaman.

[movingtonewao]

Would holding out for a chalice on 2 be any good? interesting that you chose to board out platinum emperion, do they have any way of answering it

@suntzu: if you cut the forgemasters, you're probably better off morphing into eldrazi post full on.

[Rikter]

Speaking of BUG delver, whats good to take out against them?

My current plan is to bring in 2 revoker (to name DRS), 1 trinisphere (up to 4) and 1 ratchet bomb and take out 4 lodestone golems. does this sound reasonable?

Lodestone golem NEVER comes out of the deck. I take out the 4x trinispheres, adding 2 revoker for drs/Lilly/jace and some combination of ratchet bomb and dismember.

Chalice is a card I only take out in the mirror, on 1 it shuts off typically a third of their deck, which seems fine.

[movingtonewao]

you would keep chalice in despite the fact that they can easily AD it? Im a bit confused at how the 2 pieces of advice i received have been completely opposite..bring in trinisphere and take out chalice vs keep in chalice and bring out all trinispheres.

[MGB]

you would keep chalice in despite the fact that they can easily AD it? Im a bit confused at how the 2 pieces of advice i received have been completely opposite..bring in trinisphere and take out chalice vs keep in chalice and bring out all trinispheres.

Trading a Chalice for an Abrupt Decay is not a bad trade for you at all. It's basically just breaking even on tempo and cards on both sides.

And if that Chalice soaks up a Decay, that's one less Decay they have for your Metalworker or Trinisphere.

[movingtonewao]

Hi thanks for chiming in. Are you advocating that both trinisphere and chalice should stay in? I'm still looking for things to remove so I can bring in my revokers/ratchet/etc haha.

[Rikter]

Hi thanks for chiming in. Are you advocating that both trinisphere and chalice should stay in? I'm still looking for things to remove so I can bring in my revokers/ratchet/etc haha.

Much like MGB said, soaking up the decay is fine, forcing them to spend a turn decaying it is also fine...our late game plan is better, so keeping them off Tarmogoyf for an extra turn can be a huge swing. Besides, chalice on 1 may keep them from digging for the decay in the first place.

I would not take out emperion personally, they don't deal with it well at all, basically their potential answers are Lilly, which is still conditional, if they even play her, or Dismember + something else, also not a given.

I take out trinisphere vs them, and have never missed it.

[movingtonewao]

Alright then, I can accept that :) Thanks again for the quick replies sir.

[BlackHawkX9]

Would holding out for a chalice on 2 be any good? interesting that you chose to board out platinum emperion, do they have any way of answering it.

I for some reason was thinking vs shardless bug instead of delver. Ya, the other dude is right, take out trinisphere's over chalice. Bug delver has more 1 drops, so it I worth keeping them in and forcing them to decay them. Against any form of tempo deck, usually chalice for 1 or not at all. Especially since chalice gets decayed when set on any number.

[movingtonewao]

Great! Thanks for the clarification :)

[Jakobian]

has anyone tried something like this approach?

i have used a few super strong 1 drops instead of using chalice of the void. pithing needle names wasteland, and you hopefully ramp fast and go a traditional forgemaster approach. coercive portal is there to beat 1 for 1 answer-type decks that arent INSANELY fast where the extra draw wouldnt help. sometimes landing even 1 portal can win in my experience.



// Lands
4 [RLM] Vesuva
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [RLM] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
3 [PRE] Wurmcoil Engine
4 [SOM] Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 [UD] Metalworker
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [MBS] Blightsteel Colossus
1 [ARC] Sundering Titan

// Spells
4 [CNS] Coercive Portal
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [M10] Pithing Needle
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [MBS] Spine of Ish Sah
1 [M14] Trading Post

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 4 [M15] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
SB: 1 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 4 [NPH] Spellskite
SB: 1 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 1 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [DDD] Faerie Macabre

i honestly wonder if i even need the forgemaster's in here. i could probably just get away with using more solid creatures.


The deck you're looking for is 12-post, my friend... Check the forums for some lists and ideas.

[BlackHawkX9]

So, i've been toying around with my MUD list in preparation for the Sunday Legacy portion of SCG Cincinnati. And i'm stuck on what to use for my last slot in the main, and a bit torn on sideboard. So, i figured, why not consult other MUD enthusiasts.

Main-
4x ancient tomb
4x cloudpost
4x glimmerpost
4x wasteland
3x city of traitors
3x cavern of souls
2x vesuva
4x lodestone golem
4x metalworker
4x kuldotha forgemaster
3x wurmcoil engine
1x steel hellkite
1x sundering titan
1x platinum emperion
1x blightsteel colossus
4x chalice of the void
4x grim monolith
3x trinisphere
1x staff of domination
1x lightning greaves
1x spine of ish sah
1x staff of nin
1x ugin, the spirit dragon
1x coercive portal (undecided) (considering: 2nd lightning greaves, 2nd steel hellkite, or leaving it coercive portal)

Board
1x wurmcoil
1x crucible of worlds
1x trinisphere
1x batterskull
1x spine of ish sah
1x ugin, the spirit dragon
2x phyrexian revoker
2x pithing needle
2x thorn of amethyst
2x tormod's crypt (strongly considering removing 1 or both for more thorn of amethyst)
1x steel hellkite (undecided) (considering: coercive portal if removed from the main, 3rd thorn of amethyst, ratchet bomb, 2nd steel hellkite, etc)

I keep changing my mind over and over again on what to do, but i keep coming back to this base list. Any suggestions, with valid reasoning?

[InWaking]

So, i've been toying around with my MUD list in preparation for the Sunday Legacy portion of SCG Cincinnati. And i'm stuck on what to use for my last slot in the main, and a bit torn on sideboard. So, i figured, why not consult other MUD enthusiasts.

Main-
4x ancient tomb
4x cloudpost
4x glimmerpost
4x wasteland
3x city of traitors
3x cavern of souls
2x vesuva
4x lodestone golem
4x metalworker
4x kuldotha forgemaster
3x wurmcoil engine
1x steel hellkite
1x sundering titan
1x platinum emperion
1x blightsteel colossus
4x chalice of the void
4x grim monolith
3x trinisphere
1x staff of domination
1x lightning greaves
1x spine of ish sah
1x staff of nin
1x ugin, the spirit dragon
1x coercive portal (undecided) (considering: 2nd lightning greaves, 2nd steel hellkite, or leaving it coercive portal)

Board
1x wurmcoil
1x crucible of worlds
1x trinisphere
1x batterskull
1x spine of ish sah
1x ugin, the spirit dragon
2x phyrexian revoker
2x pithing needle
2x thorn of amethyst
2x tormod's crypt (strongly considering removing 1 or both for more thorn of amethyst)
1x steel hellkite (undecided) (considering: coercive portal if removed from the main, 3rd thorn of amethyst, ratchet bomb, 2nd steel hellkite, etc)

I keep changing my mind over and over again on what to do, but i keep coming back to this base list. Any suggestions, with valid reasoning?

I am new to the Forum thanks to L10, but I have been playing MUD for a bit and like his reasoning on leaving out the posts, but I can't say it's right for everyone. What I can say though is playing less than four of each sol land couldn't possibly be right. I've been playing two Ugin in my main and have loved him, He pulls you back up when you're behind which I am sure you know from your singleton, another card that has been very impressive and will certainly help your lands matchup is a maindeck Crucible of Worlds.
I hadn't played with Portal but I intend on giving it a try at some point. Tormod's Crypt has it's uses vs Reanimator and Lands, though I wouldn't hold out on using it vs lands they have Krosan grips and my foolishness cost me a game when I could have exiled his yard with a loam in it.
Grixis Pyromancer has been rising in popularity and True name nemesis can be very problematic for this deck so I would suggest trying a Contagion Engine in the board. If you are not a fan of that tech you could always go with the Classic Ratchet Bomb which IMO is a must for the board in the current meta. Other cards to consider are Orbs of Warding, and Karn Liberated. I played vs Charbelcher combo round 1 of the invitational last weekend and in g3 turn two Orbs of Warding on the play after turn 1 chalice on 1 he was not pleased and Karn is useful vs Lands, and any deck that brings in Null Rod.

The board I am currently playing (with two Crucible main)
1 Karn Liberated Vs Lands, Miracles and BUG delver, also it's good vs any deck you expect to play Grindy Games vs.
1 Orbs of Warding Vs Burn, and all sorts of combo decks, we naturally have a good matchup vs these decks but I like it vs Grixis Delver as well it has additional value vs BG pox decks.
3 Ratchet Bomb This card comes in against almost everything all the time but more specifically it's good vs Delver.
2 Tormod's Crypt Reanimator and lands is why this is here I've also played vs Dredge and this was a great tool along with Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ensnaring Bridge Also vs Reanimator and dredge good vs the occasional Sneak and Show deck as well I bring these in vs lands as well.
1 Spine of Ish Sah This card is a fine catch all for the same reasons Karn is good, it also has merit against Omni Show.
2 Pithing Needle Wasteland Decks are hard to beat and this card helps, this is why I chose these over Revokers. These come in vs Miracles as well since they can't be swords or terminused away.
1 Contagion Engine This is good vs the Young Pyromancer decks and useful vs merfolk and any deck with True-Name Nemesis.
1 Masticore !!I know it seems crazy but it's been useful vs Young Pyromancer, Infect, and Death and Taxes people have pointed out that Contagion Clasp is better in this slot for those decks but as it stands I've enjoyed the look on peoples faces when I play Masticore ;p
1 Duplicant This is the card I've been swaying on it's good vs reanimator and sneak and show decks I guess. The only cool thing I've done with it is exile a tarmogoyf haha.

Hope any of this helped and hopefully I hadn't broken any sacred forums rules this is my first post here or pretty much anywhere haha be sure to let us know how the tournament goes.

[darkgh0st]

@BlackhawkX9: I would consider the 2nd Steel Hellkite as last. Hellkite is very vulnerable against decks you would want to use it in, having Needle, Revoker, or Null Rod most of the time. I'm biased to Greaves for more explosive openings, but that's just me.

For SB, I vote for Bomb. As for Crypt, I have 2 Crypts on my list cuz Reanimator is twice the thing it is in my meta. I would have one Thorn otherwise.

[L10]

Hi InWaking, good to see you finally post! It was nice meeting you!


I am new to the Forum thanks to L10, but I have been playing MUD for a bit and like his reasoning on leaving out the posts, but I can't say it's right for everyone.
Oh totally. I absolutely agree. My playstyle is much more aggro than midrange.


Charbelcher combo round 1 of the invitational last weekend and in g3 turn two Orbs of Warding on the play after turn 1 chalice on 1 he was not pleased
Against Belcher, I'd definitely go for Chalice at 0. It counters LED, Petal, and Chrome Mox, which are arguably scarier than Probe, Rite of Flame, and Tinder Wall.


1 Orbs of Warding Vs Burn, and all sorts of combo decks, we naturally have a good matchup vs these decks but I like it vs Grixis Delver as well it has additional value vs BG pox decks.
I completely forgot about this card. Thanks!


1 Masticore !!I know it seems crazy but it's been useful vs Young Pyromancer, Infect, and Death and Taxes people have pointed out that Contagion Clasp is better in this slot for those decks but as it stands I've enjoyed the look on peoples faces when I play Masticore ;p
I have been using Razormane Masticore myself for a while. It is actually better against Grixis since it tears Gurmag Anger a new one, and they can't chump block + bolt to kill Razormane either thanks to first strike.

@BlackHawkX9
I'd go with the second Greaves. It let's you have more broken plays.

I am debating whether or not to bring this to the next IQ.

Hangerback Stax

//Mana (24)
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Great Furnace
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
2x Mox Opal
2x Mox Diamond

//Ramp (8)
4x Metalworker
4x Grim Monolith

//Creature (12)
4x Hangarback Walker
4x Arcbound Ravager
2x Triskelion
2x Scuttling Doom Engine

//Stax (16)
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Trinisphere
3x Smokestack
3x Daretti, Scrap Savant
3x Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard
2 Contagion Engine (Goes well with Hangerback, Trike, and Ravager)
~

I kind of want to fit in Cavern of Souls since Metalworker, Hangerback, Trike, and SDE are all Constructs.

[movingtonewao]

I'd like to do another sideboard check with you guys

This time its against the 2 forms of grixis (delver and control)

So my plan is:

Grixis delver
In: 1 trinisphere (up to 4), 1 ratchet bomb, 2 revoker, 1 ugin (up to 3)
Out: 1 karn (down to 0) 4 lodestone golem
revoker targets: DRS/dack fayden

Grixis control
In: 1 needle, 2 revoker, 1 ugin, 1 ratchet bomb, 1 wasteland (up to 4), 1 crucible (from 0)
out: 1 platinum (not that useful?) 4 lodeestone golem, 2 grim monolith (acceleration not key here?)

critiques welcome! Disclaimer: I haven't been faring very well with these boarding decisions...

[Airwave]

So, i've been toying around with my MUD list in preparation for the Sunday Legacy portion of SCG Cincinnati. And i'm stuck on what to use for my last slot in the main, and a bit torn on sideboard. So, i figured, why not consult other MUD enthusiasts.

Main-
4x ancient tomb
4x cloudpost
4x glimmerpost
4x wasteland
3x city of traitors
3x cavern of souls
2x vesuva
4x lodestone golem
4x metalworker
4x kuldotha forgemaster
3x wurmcoil engine
1x steel hellkite
1x sundering titan
1x platinum emperion
1x blightsteel colossus
4x chalice of the void
4x grim monolith
3x trinisphere
1x staff of domination
1x lightning greaves
1x spine of ish sah
1x staff of nin
1x ugin, the spirit dragon
1x coercive portal (undecided) (considering: 2nd lightning greaves, 2nd steel hellkite, or leaving it coercive portal)

Board
1x wurmcoil
1x crucible of worlds
1x trinisphere
1x batterskull
1x spine of ish sah
1x ugin, the spirit dragon
2x phyrexian revoker
2x pithing needle
2x thorn of amethyst
2x tormod's crypt (strongly considering removing 1 or both for more thorn of amethyst)
1x steel hellkite (undecided) (considering: coercive portal if removed from the main, 3rd thorn of amethyst, ratchet bomb, 2nd steel hellkite, etc)

I keep changing my mind over and over again on what to do, but i keep coming back to this base list. Any suggestions, with valid reasoning?


You're playing almost the same list as I did in Lille. I'd recommend to keep the coercive in the main, since you'll probably have some grindy matchups with miracles, stoneblade, death & taxes, etc.

I'd go for 3x thorn and 1x ratchet bomb in side. This way you could fetch both ratchet bomb/tormod crypt with Forgemaster in dire need. Shouldn't happen very often though. But it's happened to me when I drew an unfortunate Platinum :eyebrow:

Thorn seems the way to go with all the Omniscience players running around. And it's useful against storm and burn too, which are almost always present.

I'd change one of the needles for revoker too. Since chalice can prevent you're needle sometimes. Best to reduce these chances somewhat I guess.

Seems like a very decent list, will you let us know how it performed?
Good luck! :smile:

[BlackHawkX9]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. And yes, I planned on reporting my results from this weekend. I'll be playing the legacy challenge on Saturday, and the legacy IQ Sunday. . I'm gonna stick with the portal main, as I do seem to have alot of grindy matchups in my area. And the sideboard flex apot I'll run as a 3rd thorn.

[ZEROorDIE]

IMO, I would board the staff of nin for a second ugin.

I'll be playing my list at the IQ in Worcester on the 12th. Also considering an orbs of warding in the side mostly for burn and possibly young pyro decks. I played burn twice last week, one game I wrecked the guy by just completely locking him out of casting anything, second guy, I'm pretty sure I boarded wrong(brought in a lot of low cost stuff) and got smoked by eidolon. I also mulliganed a lot that day. The deck just wasn't giving me functional hands.

[L10]

has anyone tried something like this approach?

i have used a few super strong 1 drops instead of using chalice of the void. pithing needle names wasteland, and you hopefully ramp fast and go a traditional forgemaster approach. coercive portal is there to beat 1 for 1 answer-type decks that arent INSANELY fast where the extra draw wouldnt help. sometimes landing even 1 portal can win in my experience.



// Lands
4 [RLM] Vesuva
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [RLM] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
3 [PRE] Wurmcoil Engine
4 [SOM] Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 [UD] Metalworker
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [MBS] Blightsteel Colossus
1 [ARC] Sundering Titan

// Spells
4 [CNS] Coercive Portal
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [M10] Pithing Needle
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [MBS] Spine of Ish Sah
1 [M14] Trading Post

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 4 [M15] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
SB: 1 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 4 [NPH] Spellskite
SB: 1 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 1 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [DDD] Faerie Macabre

i honestly wonder if i even need the forgemaster's in here. i could probably just get away with using more solid creatures.

Seems pretty cool. How often do you get to cast Emrakul? If it was me, I'd put in Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth so I can play Night of Souls' Betrayal (aka, Four Mana Concession vs. Infect). I'd play The Abyss too but it doesn't do well with Eldrazis. Your deck seems to be weak against tempo deck, but I may be wrong. Maybe add in The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale? I am not sure if I like the lack of Ugin either.

Urborg also works well with Tabernacle and Ancient Tomb.

[Rikter]

1 Duplicant This is the card I've been swaying on it's good vs reanimator and sneak and show decks I guess. The only cool thing I've done with it is exile a tarmogoyf haha.

Hope any of this helped and hopefully I hadn't broken any sacred forums rules this is my first post here or pretty much anywhere haha be sure to let us know how the tournament goes.

I used to play duplicant, I took him out once sneak and show died. I don't think hes bad vs reanimator, you can cavern him out and 6 is reasonably doable, but I don't think he is fantastic either.


I'd like to do another sideboard check with you guys

This time its against the 2 forms of grixis (delver and control)

So my plan is:

Grixis delver
In: 1 trinisphere (up to 4), 1 ratchet bomb, 2 revoker, 1 ugin (up to 3)
Out: 1 karn (down to 0) 4 lodestone golem
revoker targets: DRS/dack fayden

Grixis control
In: 1 needle, 2 revoker, 1 ugin, 1 ratchet bomb, 1 wasteland (up to 4), 1 crucible (from 0)
out: 1 platinum (not that useful?) 4 lodeestone golem, 2 grim monolith (acceleration not key here?)

critiques welcome! Disclaimer: I haven't been faring very well with these boarding decisions...

Never take out lodestone golem! That card is live in literally every single matchup, even in the mirror where he is just a 5-3 for 4.
Against gryxis delver he keeps them from going too crazy with pyro, and provides some protection vs his alternate cost (FoW, Daze) counters since he has to tap out more often, even if he's trying to get by on 1cmc spells.

Against the control variant he provides a ridiculous clock plus disruption.

I can't think of a single deck where you would not want him in.

[movingtonewao]

What else then? I can't think of anything else to cut

[Rikter]

What else then? I can't think of anything else to cut

Can you PM me the list, or otherwise point me to it in the forums?

[movingtonewao]

PMed you

[BlackHawkX9]

IMO, I would board the staff of nin for a second ugin.

I'll be playing my list at the IQ in Worcester on the 12th. Also considering an orbs of warding in the side mostly for burn and possibly young pyro decks. I played burn twice last week, one game I wrecked the guy by just completely locking him out of casting anything, second guy, I'm pretty sure I boarded wrong(brought in a lot of low cost stuff) and got smoked by eidolon. I also mulliganed a lot that day. The deck just wasn't giving me functional hands.

I realize that Ugin is a powerhouse, however he is not fetchable with forgemaster, and he is a non-artifact that messes up metalworker. Staff of nin plays well with the deck, where ugin is just a huge beast if you have tons of mana. In my meta, I tend to have a hard time getting mana to cast ugin, with so many hate filled wasteland heavy midrange decks in my area meta. So, the ping and the card draw from staff out weight ugin for what I have to play against regularly.

[Rikter]

PM sent. Blackhawk makes good points, however at some point you have to dance with the one the brung you. Let us know how it goes, as I mentioned in my PM work is crazy today, but if you take good notes and post a report I'll have time to go more in depth sometime this weekend.

[lilevo]

So I went back to playing MUD this past week on mtgo the DE's I played went 2-1, 1-2 and 3-0. In the first one I lost the last round to what I consider MUD's worst mu, BUG Delver I still have a hard time sideboarding in this mu, also this was the first time I played MUD since miracles started playing monastery mentor and I wasn't sure how the games would go, well I think it's still heavily in MUD's favor to beat miracles. Two things I would like to point out is I would not play MUD with less than 3 Ugins in the main he does everything this deck wants he saves you from losing to an army of creatures and wins games, Uba is a real card and you guys should try to play at least one in the SB.

[darkgh0st]

Another FNM with MUD. I changed one of the Wurmcoils to a Myr Battlesphere as I've mention.

Decklist:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine of Ish Sah

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva

SB:
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Powder Keg
1 Trinisphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trading Post
1 Batterskull
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

When I got to the place, I scouted what the meta was going to be like. I spotted Miracles, Burn, Enchantress, DnT, the usual two Land decks, and Storm. I didn't really see if Reanimator was going to be there or not, but it was a given that I had to tweak my SB accordingly.

SB: -1 Tormod's Crypt, +1 Thorn of Amethyst
-1 Powder Keg, +1 Ratchet Bomb (for Enchantress)
-1 Batterskull, +1 Orbs of Warding (for Storm and Burn)
-1 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 Sundering Titan (for Miracles and Enchantress)

SB:
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Trinisphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trading Post
1 Orbs of Warding
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Karn Liberated
1 Sundering Titan
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon


Round 1:
Playing against Storm, and I lost the die roll. My bad luck in die rolls continues on this week... We played a grindy 3 games. Game 1, his first couple of turns looked like BUG, so I wasn't sure about it and held back my Chalice and Trinisphere in favor of building my manabase. He combos of in turn four after Duressing my Chalice and Trinisphere. I take game two and three screwing his math with Lodestone Golems. Both turns, he would have won if he had one more mana. 2-1 (1-0)

Round 2:
4 Color Lands (not your usual 4c Loam). It played more like RG Lands with Intuition and Dark Confidant. I lose the die roll again. We played three games, me winning game one and three through comboing off with Greaves. I didn't have Greaves game two and he had Maze of Ith in game two and three. Props to the Greaves on this one. 2-1 (2-0)

Round 3:
BUG, losing the die roll. I won game one with a quick Greaves, Cavern, Metalworker into multiple Golems (Lodestone and can't remember if it was Sundering Titan or Platinum Emperion). Lost game two against a Delver and later on a Clique. I would lose game three as he had Null Rod out, but forgot that I can't use Forgemaster. All game he was playing around me Forgemastering until he got a Graffdigger's Cage. I had a Staff of Nin to topdeck an Ugin in my last surviving turn. 2-1 (3-0)

Round 4:
I was so tired and wanted to draw, but I was paired down and the guy wanted the win so we had to play it out. I lose the die roll, 4 out of 4 tonight. He was playing something RUW Stoneforge. Game one, he got me down to 13 before I started stabilizing with a Chalice @ 1, Forgemaster, Myr Battlesphere, and an eventual fetch for Sundering Titan. I didn't see a Cavern, so I just had to play the fatties out. I still had Wurmcoil and Steel Hellkite if anything was countered. Game two, he had an early True-Name Nemesis. I built up my manabase first before playing City of Traitors to lock my set, then flooded the board with two Lodestones, and Wurmcoil with Greaves. I also got a Staff of Nin through for the last bump in the head. 2-0 (4-0)

I felt a lot of pressure with games one, two, and three, hence the very undetailed report. I also wasn't able to keep my mull stats because of it. Props on three cards tonight: Lightning Greaves (turn sketchy games or even a very bad position around for the win), Ugin (as always), and Staff of Nin (fairly good card drawing engine). I was never able to pull off the Spine of Ish Sah, Trading Post combo and with Null Rods in my meta, I can only seem to find solid use for Trading Post against Burn.

[movingtonewao]

I'll contribute my first report playing MUD here. Played in a 49 man event with 6 rounds last night.
Prizes were 4x fow playset, NM moat, NM volcanic island, NM karakas, foil delvers, MM boosters, and KTK boosters


maindeck:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Karn Liberated
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
2 Coercive Portal
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

sideboard:
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Trinisphere
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Wasteland
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Batterskull

All this from memory, I'll try to be as accurate as I can.

Round 1:
BURG delver (eventual winner of the entire thing)

Game 1: Can't remember much here. I think he force of will-ed away something. He missed land drops, I had a cavern on angel and I land a platinum angel, and then karn lands and he scoops. At this point I just put him on some form of delver so I boarded delver plan that Rikter gave me through PM.

+1 ratchet bomb, +1 crucible, +1 batterskull, +1 wasteland, +1 needle, -1 karn, -1 spine, -3 trinisphere (as suggested by rikter)

Game 2: He lands an early delver, jace VP, and tarmogoyf. He has force of will for wurmcoil, its too late for me to recover. If i remember correctly he dealt with 2 metalworkers as well. Ancient grudge on coercive portal did not help my cause at all.

Game 3: grindy game. My draws were not great and I was in topdeck mode. He had an early jace VP again. I got hit by ancient grudge twice, kolaghans command twice, abrupt decay twice (metalworker died then monolith). There was a window for me to land an ugin somewhere in the middle of the game, but then he had the fow. Eventually he has life from the loam, and loams back his wasteland to knock me off my sol lands so that my decision to concede was made easier.

1-2 loss

Round 2:
Miracles

Game 1: This is a guy I really respect as the longest serving miracles player in my area. He mulliganed down to 6. I managed to land chalice on 1, trinisphere and a chalice on 2, and eventually win from there.

+1 needle, +1 batterskull, +1 ugin, +1 ratchet bomb, -1 platinum, -2 grim monolith, -1 spine

Game 2: He kept his starting 7. I remember that he managed to counter my early lock pieces and then vendilion clique beat me for 3 and eventually out of the game.

Game 3: He mulliganed to 5, which was pretty awful. I wastelanded his only tundra and he was stuck with 3 islands and a top. Its a bit sad the game went this way but such is life.

2-1 win

Round 3:
Storm

Game 1: I know he was on storm as he was playing beside me in round 1. I mulligan 2 unimpressive hands. I end up with this hand: ancient tomb, chalice, and 3x something else (1 was a cavern of souls). He leads off with duress to strip my chalice. I'm like oh shit. Then I topdeck like a champ and rip chalice off the top! Then I rip platinum angel off the top, name angel with cavern, and the game was over in like 1 minute. Sometimes the cards just want you to win.

+1 Trinisphere, +1 ratchet bomb, +2 revoker, +3 thorn, -1 karn, -1 titan, -2 portal, -2 ugin, -1 spine

Game 2: He makes 6 goblins early. I make a wurmcoil early.

2-0 win

Round 4:
Infect

Game 1: It came down to a board state where I had plenty of mana but no gas. He had glistener elf and inkmoth nexus beating me down. I draw a chalice and decide to go for chalice on 3, he shows me vines of vastwood. Oh well lol.

+1 needle, +1 ratchet, +1 wasteland, +1 crucible, +1 trinisphere, +2 thorn, -2 portal, -2 ugin, -2 wurmcoil, -1 vesuva

Game 2: I felt YOLO enough to keep a hand with 1 land, 2 chalice, 1 grim monolith, 1 trinisphere, 1 ratchet, and 1 smth else. I never saw a 2nd land.

0-2 loss and no way of making top 8

Round 5:
Infect

Game 1: I had lock pieces and lodestone. I didn't see a single pump spell from him.

sideboard same as previous game

Game 2: Platinum angel on greaves. I had 10 infect counters on me already but he couldn't deal with angels wearing metal boots. The only way was if he somehow gets his 2 krosan grips which he sideboarded it, but that didn't happen.

2-0 win

Round 6:
Burn

Game 1: This is a modern player who bought the pieces for legacy burn and played in the event. He lands the one two punch of goblin guide and eidolon. I land lock pieces. He gets there first.

+1 trinisphere, +1 batterskull, +3 thorn, +1 ratchet bomb, +1 revoker -1 karn -2 ugin -1 titan -1 spine -2 coercive

Game 2: I get there one turn before he burned me out. He died to his own 2 eidolons.

Game 3: I had this wrapped up although I was in single digits after attacking once with a wurmcoil. But then he rips off a sulfuric vortex and ensures I end up losing my final match of the day.

Overall 3-3, 20th place out of 49 and not too bad considering its my first time taking the deck to an event.

My prize was one MM pack and I picked one with the noble hierarch face and opened a noble hierarch, so that was nice as well.

[InWaking]

My prize was one MM pack and I picked one with the noble hierarch face and opened a noble hierarch, so that was nice as well.

This whole time I was reading MM as Mercadian Masques, sitting here being like what are we going for, port? I've pretty much won exactly 50% of all matches I have played with MUD which seems to be on point to where you are with the deck. How have the two maindeck portals been in your list, I don't own any but I've been considering them for a while now.

My first time playing MUD in a tournament I spent the whole tournament mulliganing hands that didn't have a t1/t2 chalice or trinisphere. Against a lot of decks that seems like the right thing to do but causes for a lot of mulls. I still feel awful keeping hands that don't have a chalice, Trinisphere, or Lodestone Golem in them, is this a natural feeling for this deck or does anyone else see it differently?

[Airwave]

This whole time I was reading MM as Mercadian Masques, sitting here being like what are we going for, port? I've pretty much won exactly 50% of all matches I have played with MUD which seems to be on point to where you are with the deck. How have the two maindeck portals been in your list, I don't own any but I've been considering them for a while now.

My first time playing MUD in a tournament I spent the whole tournament mulliganing hands that didn't have a t1/t2 chalice or trinisphere. Against a lot of decks that seems like the right thing to do but causes for a lot of mulls. I still feel awful keeping hands that don't have a chalice, Trinisphere, or Lodestone Golem in them, is this a natural feeling for this deck or does anyone else see it differently?

I do. Of course a Chalice at 1 or Trini is great, but so is a turn 1 sol land, grim monolith, turn 2 cavern, wurmcoil. So just add Grim Monolith to the list.. now you have more options :smile:

[L10]

Having two lands + Chalice, Trinisphere/Crucible (depending on match-up), Lodestone Golem, Grim Monolith, and Metalworker are keeps. Sometimes, you can just ramp yourself to victory and don't need a lock piece, even though having a lock piece + ramp + threat is ideal.

[InWaking]

Having two lands + Chalice, Trinisphere/Crucible (depending on match-up), Lodestone Golem, Grim Monolith, and Metalworker are keeps. Sometimes, you can just ramp yourself to victory and don't need a lock piece, even though having a lock piece + ramp + threat is ideal.

Don't get me wrong, I understand these tactics and they are reasonable I just meant the ramp aspect to you guys doesn't feel awful just going for it? Maybe Stax is more what I want to be playing but that requires effort to get the cards they don't share ;p

I am enjoying the battlesphere over Sundering titan L10 good suggestion. what was the link to your latest list again?

[L10]

We've been playing with the Vancouver Mulligan and it has made the deck much more consistent for me. You still can't keep sketchy keeps, but it does turn okay keeps to winners.

This is my current list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/15-08-15-zjl-metalworker/
Yeah, I generally like Myr Battlesphere over Sundering Titan in the main because Sundering Titan is match-up dependent, and like Sundering Titan, Myr Battlesphere creates value when he enters the battlefield. Having a casting cost of seven and being a Construct is big too. I would have both but I try to limit my 7CMC+ drops to 4 (2 Ugin, 1 Battlesphere/Titan/Angel, 1 Blightsteel). I am also liking Batterskull over Staff of Nin in the main because Staff of Nin is also match-up dependant, and I generally like to draw into threats. I am toying with a 1/3 or 2/2 split between Crucible and Trinisphere. The SB is completely meta dependent, so I wouldn't follow it completely.

If you want to play with Smokestack, I have several lists for you too, depending if you want to splash red for Darreti. So far, I don't think it's worth it. Smokestack + Sundial of the Infinite is a pretty fun win-con against mid-range decks and beyond.

Currently, I am trying to make Hangarback work:
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Arcbound Ravager
2 Triskelion

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

I am playing with Thorn over Trinisphere solely because I want to two-drops and that it really doesn't affect this deck as much due to all the creatures. This is clearly a port of Hangarback Shops without the consistency.


Another FNM with MUD. I changed one of the Wurmcoils to a Myr Battlesphere as I've mention.
Round 3:
BUG, losing the die roll. I won game one with a quick Greaves, Cavern, Metalworker into multiple Golems (Lodestone and can't remember if it was Sundering Titan or Platinum Emperion). Lost game two against a Delver and later on a Clique. I would lose game three as he had Null Rod out, but forgot that I can't use Forgemaster. All game he was playing around me Forgemastering until he got a Graffdigger's Cage. I had a Staff of Nin to topdeck an Ugin in my last surviving turn. 2-1 (3-0)

I felt a lot of pressure with games one, two, and three, hence the very undetailed report. I also wasn't able to keep my mull stats because of it. Props on three cards tonight: Lightning Greaves (turn sketchy games or even a very bad position around for the win), Ugin (as always), and Staff of Nin (fairly good card drawing engine). I was never able to pull off the Spine of Ish Sah, Trading Post combo and with Null Rods in my meta, I can only seem to find solid use for Trading Post against Burn.
I am sure you know this, but with Grafdigger's Cage and Containment Priest out, you can still fetch for Batterskull or Staff of Nin.
To be honest, I would have kept the Batterskull and took out the Trading Post for Orb of Warding against Burn. Trading Post is a bit slow without an engine like Crucible of Worlds. With Crucible, you can recur Darksteel Citadel and sac it to Trading Post to draw cards. With Mishra's Factory, it's even better, because you can sac it draw cards or get an artifact back from grave. Trading Post also works well with Voltaic Key.



Round 1: BURG delver (eventual winner of the entire thing)
+1 ratchet bomb, +1 crucible, +1 batterskull, +1 wasteland, +1 needle, -1 karn, -1 spine, -3 trinisphere (as suggested by rikter)

Round 2: Miracles
+1 needle, +1 batterskull, +1 ugin, +1 ratchet bomb, -1 platinum, -2 grim monolith, -1 spine

Round 4:
Infect
+1 needle, +1 ratchet, +1 wasteland, +1 crucible, +1 trinisphere, +2 thorn, -2 portal, -2 ugin, -2 wurmcoil, -1 vesuva

Round 6:
Burn
+1 trinisphere, +1 batterskull, +3 thorn, +1 ratchet bomb, +1 revoker -1 karn -2 ugin -1 titan -1 spine -2 coercive

What are you trying to Needle against BURG Delver that Revoker can't handle? Wasteland?
I am not sure I like removing Grim Monoliths against Miracles.
Against Infect, I'd take out Sundering Titan over Wurmcoil Engine. You really need that pressure. I think Ugin is better than Karn in this match-up.
I would not side out Spine vs Burn because they usually have 2-3 Ensnaring Bridges post-board.

[movingtonewao]

What are you trying to Needle against BURG Delver that Revoker can't handle? Wasteland?
I am not sure I like removing Grim Monoliths against Miracles.
Against Infect, I'd take out Sundering Titan over Wurmcoil Engine. You really need that pressure. I think Ugin is better than Karn in this match-up.
I would not side out Spine vs Burn because they usually have 2-3 Ensnaring Bridges post-board.


Yeah I fear wasteland above all, but as the games panned out I really wanted to needle his jace telepath unbound which killed me pretty badly. I also knew he had some bolts in there (pretty funky brew he had).

I'm still waiting for that list to be uploaded. I recall seeing: delver, abrupt decay, kolaghans command, jace VP, lightning bolt, life from the loam, ancient grudge, force of will, tarmogoyf

My rationale for siding out monoliths against miracles is that the games can be a grind so a boost of mana is not really required.

You're probably right on the sundering titan over wurmcoil engine. I'm not sure that ugin is strictly better than karn, karn can remove a inkmoth. The 1 extra mana needed might also be crucial. I'll admit I haven't tested enough on this matchup.

How would you have sideboarded against BURG/Miracles/Infect/burn based on my list? I'm always trying to understand others' thought processes so I can integrate them into my own. Thanks for responding!

Do let us know your progress with the hangarback idea. Plenty of potential, just don't wanna see a swords to plowshares with that one!

[movingtonewao]

This whole time I was reading MM as Mercadian Masques, sitting here being like what are we going for, port? I've pretty much won exactly 50% of all matches I have played with MUD which seems to be on point to where you are with the deck. How have the two maindeck portals been in your list, I don't own any but I've been considering them for a while now.

My first time playing MUD in a tournament I spent the whole tournament mulliganing hands that didn't have a t1/t2 chalice or trinisphere. Against a lot of decks that seems like the right thing to do but causes for a lot of mulls. I still feel awful keeping hands that don't have a chalice, Trinisphere, or Lodestone Golem in them, is this a natural feeling for this deck or does anyone else see it differently?

You must be an old player to make the reference to masques. It didn't even cross my mind.

I like the maindeck portals, they are pretty good in long grindy games. Some people talk about portals vs staff of nin. I think portals are important because you can drop them turn 2, and draw an extra card off them. there are games where getting to 6 for staff is just a bridge too far. Having said that, staff is pretty good against delver. Portals come out against anything that kills you fast though.

I suppose you can keep a hand with metalworker, greaves and a bunch of artifacts as well. You're right to identify that what hand you keep is extremely crucial because we have zero library manipulation and the only card draw comes from portal/staff of nin (ie: minimal). Lock pieces make you feel safe but yeah you can just keep all ramp hands and randomly win sometimes.

[LeaPlath]

So I top 4ed our local legacy monthly with this, then split.

Small event, 16 players due to a big PPTQ nearby.

I made it out to be (from what I saw of peoples decks)
2 Storm
2 Mavrick
3 Death and Taxes
2 MUD
2 4c Delver
1 Shardless
1 Belcher
2 Omni
1 Grixis

4x Ancient Tomb
1x Blightsteel Colossus
3x Cavern of Souls
4x Chalice of the Void
4x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
1x phyrexian revoker
1x platinum emperion
4x Grim Monolith
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
1x Lightning Greaves
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Staff of Nin
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
4x Trinisphere
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1x Vesuva
4x Wasteland
2x Wurmcoil Engine

Sideboard
1x All Is Dust
1x Batterskull
2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Karn Liberated
1x Pithing Needle
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Sundering Titan
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Tormod's Crypt

Match 1 1 versus TES
Game 1, I opened with chalice on 1, he managed to make 8 goblin tokens, but I resolved Ugin to deal with them. He scooped soon after.
Game 2, he never saw land, while I had double wasteland, chalice open most of the game then Lodestone beat him down.

Match 2, versus Grixis Delver with Deathrite
Game 1, I mulled to 5, had a hand of Vesuva, Cloudpost, Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Plat Emp. I'm thinking between the 3 potential cloudposts I'm OK, and mulling lower seems bad. I managed to buy time off the glimmers and cloudposts then resolve a plat emp and greaves in a single turn to win, he just couldn't answer it.
Game 2, I get a hand that leans heavily on chalice, knowing he has Ponder, Brainstorm, GP and the like, but he resolves a pair of young pyromancers and kills me before I find threats.
Game 3, I manage to stax out the game with Thorn and Lodestone, then drop a Sundering Titan which get stifled for 3 mana. I've still got a 5/3 and a 7/10 so kill him fairly easily.

Match 3, versus WR Death and Taxes with Recruiter and Magus
Game 1, I resolve Chalice post Aether Vial but just apply too many threats and a forgemaster that I'm able to tutor up Blightsteel and kill him.
Game 2, It is a hard fought game where he drops Magus, after I'm on 4 lands and a Grim Monolith, he keeps drawing lands, as do I, and then he equips his magus and recruiter with equipment and kill me, my only outs being Ugin, Karn or Blightsteel, of which I seen none.
Game 3, I lean too hard on Chalice/Trinisphere, having not seen the light and sided them out, I end up with 3 Trini out just for forgemaster fodda if I draw it, but die to batterskull and equipment.

Game 4, versus MUD Mirror. He is playing no wasteland, having predicted there to be lots of basic heavy decks.
Game 1, I am reminded Cloudpost say all Locus and am able to power out a ton of threats, including a Steel Hellkite that flat out wins me the game.
Game 2, I end up forcing him to sac all his board and block to only take 6 Poison from my attacking Blightsteel, as I have a Staff of Domination and 5 mana. The game is then stalemated as we both have staffs and he has more cloudposts. It comes down to us sat there, with holding each other off, until I manage to draw a metalworker. There is a tense upkeep step as I have 1 artifact in hand and he tries to tap my metalworker to stop me going off in my main phase. I tap my metalworker for 2, tap a sol land and glimmer for 3, staff, draw a card, it is an artifact, draw for turn an artifact, go off with infinate mana which lets me untap my Blightsteel more times than he can tap it.

Game 5, versus Mavrick
We ID basically, then it cuts to top 4 and we all ID to get some credit and head home early.

Going forward I'm making the following changes.

*No revoker main. It was low impact and felt bad every time I cast it. Potentially being swapped for the Batterskull mainboard again
*No Relic. 2 Tormod's is more than enough. Potentially being swapped for web
*Another Pithing Needle in the sideboard.
*Cutting an Ensnaring Bridge


Also, is Ratchet Bomb still good? It seems to be losing power at the moment due to creatures in decks diversifying. I'm also considering opening up sideboard slots for Titan's Presence as a 2 of.

[Stuart]

(Longtime lurker, first time poster.)

Today I made top 8 at Pat's Games ATX Legacy Power Series, 34ish players. Went 4-0-2, then lost the first round of the top 8. Oh well - it was my first time on MUD, the event rocked, and I won a Sneak Attack for my troubles. My list:

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone
4 Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil
1 Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel
2 Ugin

4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine of Ish Sah

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudposf
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva

1 Platinum Angel
3 Faerie Macabre
2 All Is Dust
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Tsabo's Web

Matchups, from what I remember:
- Round 1 vs Miracles, 2-0: my opponent got a game 1 loss for a late start, then I locked him out game 2
- Round 2 vs WRG Stoneblade, 2-1: I thought I was playing lands the whole time, then it ended and he told me he was on Blade. Chalice on 1 and 2 did work for me.
- Round 3 vs Lands, 1-1-1: really ugly, grindy games featuring Dark Depths and Blightsteel. Not fun.
- Round 4 vs BURG Delver, 2-1: the only matchup I was familiar with. Staff of Nin was an all star
- Round 5 vs Miracles, 2-0: Sundering Titan rocks, even through a post-board Blood Moon
- Round 6 vs Burn: we split for getting into Top 8
- Top 8 vs the same BURG Delver player: Kolaghan's Command and Jace locked me out

I normally play Burn and Tide, but though MUD was a blast. I'll be playing it a lot more from now on.

[BlackHawkX9]

So, I played down in the Cincinnati legacy IQ yesterday. I did terrible. I got to keep hands of 7 only 4 times out of 15 total games, mulliganing away either 5-7 land hands, or 0-1 land hands all day, table shuffling in-between every throw back. And if mulliganing that many times, wasn't enough, I got wrecked by wastelands and rishadon ports all day too. It really makes me pose the question, are wastelands coming back into the meta so hard that cloudpost needs to go?

I was chatting with some other mud players while there. 1 of them went 5-2 with main deck soul of new phyrexia, trading post, batterskull, 2 greaves, only 3 forgemaster, 2 wurmcoil. His losses were to grixis control and reanimater.

[InWaking]

I was chatting with some other mud players while there. 1 of them went 5-2 with main deck soul of new phyrexia, trading post, batterskull, 2 greaves, only 3 forgemaster, 2 wurmcoil. His losses were to grixis control and reanimater.

Should have referred him here I'm interested in his list, and L10 has proposed that we step back from the Locus build and back onto the Voltaic Key Manland crucible build he's been on. I hadn't really been able to test it much but the theory behind it is solid. I am not sold on Trading Post something about that card bothers me but I'm not sure what, I should try it before I knock it though.

[Airwave]

So, I played down in the Cincinnati legacy IQ yesterday. I did terrible. I got to keep hands of 7 only 4 times out of 15 total games, mulliganing away either 5-7 land hands, or 0-1 land hands all day, table shuffling in-between every throw back. And if mulliganing that many times, wasn't enough, I got wrecked by wastelands and rishadon ports all day too. It really makes me pose the question, are wastelands coming back into the meta so hard that cloudpost needs to go?

I was chatting with some other mud players while there. 1 of them went 5-2 with main deck soul of new phyrexia, trading post, batterskull, 2 greaves, only 3 forgemaster, 2 wurmcoil. His losses were to grixis control and reanimater.

Seems like an awful lot of bad luck. 4 out of 15 is.... amazing actually :frown:

Wastelands coming back could also be solved by maindecking Crucible of Worlds. I'm not going to throw cloudpost out of the window because of it...

[L10]

Yeah I fear wasteland above all, but as the games panned out I really wanted to needle his jace telepath unbound which killed me pretty badly. I also knew he had some bolts in there (pretty funky brew he had).

I'm still waiting for that list to be uploaded. I recall seeing: delver, abrupt decay, kolaghans command, jace VP, lightning bolt, life from the loam, ancient grudge, force of will, tarmogoyf

My rationale for siding out monoliths against miracles is that the games can be a grind so a boost of mana is not really required.

You're probably right on the sundering titan over wurmcoil engine. I'm not sure that ugin is strictly better than karn, karn can remove a inkmoth. The 1 extra mana needed might also be crucial. I'll admit I haven't tested enough on this matchup.

How would you have sideboarded against BURG/Miracles/Infect/burn based on my list? I'm always trying to understand others' thought processes so I can integrate them into my own. Thanks for responding!

Do let us know your progress with the hangarback idea. Plenty of potential, just don't wanna see a swords to plowshares with that one!
Unsurprisingly, the Legacy port of Hangarback Shops is not good. Too slow. Different meta. Meltdown is not a card we are afraid of. After talking to James Wohlmacher who had a singleton Hangarback in his SB, he said it was probably his weakest card during the Legacy Champs. The card has potential, I just don't know if it has a home in Legacy outside of Affinity. I really just want to play Throwbots in Legacy. lol

The 4c Delver list sounds pretty neat. I wonder how often he actually gets to use the Loam Engine. Did you only see it post-board? Anyways, against the 4c Delver, I'd probably SB like this:
-1 Spine of Ish Sah (too expensive)
-1 Platinum Angel (i want to limit the number of 7cmc+ cards)
-1 Karn Liberated (i want to limit the number of 7cmc+ cards)
-1 Staff of Domination (too taxing. does not go well without Metalworker)
+1 Ratchet Bomb
+1 Wasteland
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Batterskull
I like Trinisphere in this match-up because it disrupts there tempo. I can see an argument for Revoker or Needle too

Against Miracles:
-1 Spine of Ish Sah
-1 Platinum Angel
-1 Karn Liberated
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Ugin
I don't think Karn is particularly impressive against Mentor Miracles, since they can combo off fairly quick unlike Ponder Miracles. I had never lost against a Miracles player with Ugin out. I also like Grim Monolith in this match-up because I tend to try to slam down a huge threat by turn 2 or 3, forcing them to answer it before they can sculpt their hand. Crucible of Worlds is pretty great in this match-up too since they are a mana hungry deck. I'd probably take away Staff of Domination in place of it. It's up to you.

Against Infect:
-1 Spine of Ish Sah
-1 Sundering Titan
-2 Coercive Portal
+1 Trinisphere
+1 Wasteland
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Ratchet Bomb
I like Ugin over Karn in this match-up because the -X destroying multiple infect creatures at once and invalidates Vines of Vastwood. Having a 2/1 split may still be good.

Against Burn:
-1 Sundering Titan
-2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
-1 Karn Liberated
-2 Coercive Portal
+1 Trinisphere
+1 Batterskull
+3 Thorn
+1 Ratchet Bomb
I'd keep Spine in vs. Ensnaring Bridge.


I was chatting with some other mud players while there. 1 of them went 5-2 with main deck soul of new phyrexia, trading post, batterskull, 2 greaves, only 3 forgemaster, 2 wurmcoil. His losses were to grixis control and reanimater.
This is awesome. I like the 3 Forgemaster plan if he is off Blightsteel. I think that's what the (nameless one) does. Sometimes, Forgemaster is a liability if you have no artifacts to sac with or get Stifled by Canadian Threshold and some UWr Stoneblade builds.
Sorry to hear about your hand. That's pretty unlucky. I think the new mulligan rule will help us tremendously. Lands is a pretty bad match-up, like 70/30 in their favor. I find Death and Taxes to be an easy match-up though, like 80/20 in my favor. Which is weird, because most MUD players I talk to have the exact opposite experience against DnT.


I am not sold on Trading Post something about that card bothers me but I'm not sure what, I should try it before I knock it though.
Trading Post is a pretty cool tech, especially in conjunction with Crucible of Worlds and Darksteel Citadel or Mishra's Factory. Not sure I like it in a Post build though.


Wastelands coming back could also be solved by maindecking Crucible of Worlds. I'm not going to throw cloudpost out of the window because of it...
That's an alternative. You'd probably want 4 Wastelands too if that were the case. But the main issue with Cloudpost is getting your first Cloudpost wasted with a hand of City of Traitors and Vesuva. In this case, Cloudpost can be a liability. BUT, if the first Cloudpost does not get hit by Wasteland, Cloudpost can help you stabilize very well in the mid game. That's actually a gamble in your favor, and is a pretty solid risk. I don't play with Cloudpost because I don't like losing that way, like explosive starts with Grim Monolith and Voltaic Key, and that I like to play with Wastelands, Cavern of Souls (the meta is very blue right now), and Mishra's Factory. Different strokes for different folks.

[darkgh0st]

From what I see when playing Post lands is that it's a great benefit to know if you are going against a deck with Wastelands. Then you can play around it. Voltaic Key and Thran Dynamo is a no go for me since I often see Null Rods.

Thanks for those who reported lately. I believe mull stats is a great thing to keey an eye on.

@BlackHawkX9: Did you find any other troubles with the build other than those?

[BlackHawkX9]

From what I see when playing Post lands is that it's a great benefit to know if you are going against a deck with Wastelands. Then you can play around it. Voltaic Key and Thran Dynamo is a no go for me since I often see Null Rods.

Thanks for those who reported lately. I believe mull stats is a great thing to keey an eye on.

@BlackHawkX9: Did you find any other troubles with the build other than those?

It was kinda difficult to pinpoint issues with the build when my issues were specifically bad mulligans, and heavy wasteland and rishadon port disruption on top of that. I do have to say though, wastelands are coming back full force, and that is something that our deck will need to answer, or be pushed out of relevance. And I am strongly considering dropping cloudposts again. Come into play tapped lands vs wasteland is really bad for us. Makes us always have to be fighting that uphill battle. But one thing I did really like, last minute I traded my 1/1 split main deck of staff of nin and coercive portal, for 2 portals, and the few games I got to actually play, it was a dream having more accessibility to the card draw. Fighting the uphill battle vs much mana disruption, 2 mana difference can make all the difference.

[LeaPlath]

Does anyone have a cloudpostless list with Key/Thran? I'm curious now what current ones might look like.

Also why no Welder any more?

[darkgh0st]

L10 has a post a couple pages back for a Cloudpostless list, which is very similar to Takumi Sugiyama's list.

Welder hasn't been popping up since Cloudpost was more effective at bringing in out fatties. Who knows that might change soon.

I still believe in Cloudpost even with high mana denial rampant.

[BlackHawkX9]

L10 has a post a couple pages back for a Cloudpostless list, which is very similar to Takumi Sugiyama's list.

Welder hasn't been popping up since Cloudpost was more effective at bringing in out fatties. Who knows that might change soon.

I still believe in Cloudpost even with high mana denial rampant.

Welder was a much more aggressive combo version of mud that started losing favor when deathrite shaman showed up, because you couldn't as easily recur your dudes with deathrite eating them. But, who knows, we might have to adapt back to that way to stay relevant. We might be able to make post still work. We don't know til we try it.

Welder plus contagion engine would tear through all these pyromancer decks though. Worth considering.

[Silverflame]

Just spoiled.

Temple of the Forsaken Gods
Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.

T: Add 2 to your mana pool. Use this mana only to cast colorless spells. Activate this ability only if you control seven or more land.

looks meh.

[L10]

You got me way too excited for a second. Had me all the way until the end. Well, there is that. I want to give Gemstone Caverns a shot as a two-off. Maybe it will make playing on the draw less bad. It will give us 10 ways to drop a turn 1 Chalice on draw, and maybe even a turn 1 Trinisphere or Lodestone Golem.

[sun tzu]

You got me way too excited for a second. Had me all the way until the end. Well, there is that. I want to give Gemstone Caverns a shot as a two-off. Maybe it will make playing on the draw less bad. It will give us 10 ways to drop a turn 1 Chalice on draw, and maybe even a turn 1 Trinisphere or Lodestone Golem.
are you sure this is better than SSG or ESG if you want a bit more mana? the -1 card right off the bat seems pretty brutal vs decks that want to 1 for 1 your threats.

[LeaPlath]

L10, I've looked at your list and I'm now curious on a few things.

First up, why only 2 Sphere? It is great and I would never play less than 3.

Secondly, how good is Gemstone for you? Seems like the guide plan would be better for it.

Thirdly, Orbs of Warding, how good are they for you? I never liked them over something like Witchbane which is more consistent turn 2 able for me.

Anyway I'm now experimenting with the following MUD decks. I feel like I am brewing for the sake of brewing a bit but it has some interesting results


Welder/Dereti using Scuttling Doom Engine/Wurmcoil a lot more, potentially forgoing Blightsteal with potential SSG.
9 Post version with Mishra's Factory and Mainboard Cruicible.
Normal Post version.
Mishra's Factory/Key version with Thran Dynamo and a 2 of Buried Ruin.
A green version with Library, ESG and a pair of Birthing Pod



Also out of interest why don't the Crucible/Mishra's versions play Buried? It ETB untapped and recurrs something like a decayed Chalice or metalworker?

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

That new land is mediocre. Does not go to Valhalla

[L10]

are you sure this is better than SSG or ESG if you want a bit more mana? the -1 card right off the bat seems pretty brutal vs decks that want to 1 for 1 your threats.
No, because SSG and ESG are always card disadvantage. Same goes for Mox Diamond. This is not the same for Gemstone Caverns (inspired by Joe Lossett: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xouR3W7MSqo). The key here being that you only need to exile a card from your hand (any card, unlike Mox Diamond or Chrome Mox) IFF you are on the draw and want to leyline it to the battlefield. This is essentially the same as if my opponent and I both took a mulligan, and I went first by playing a land and pass. This is obvious with this example:

Assume my opponent and I kept our initial seven cards
1) I play Gemstone Caverns at the beginning of my opponent's turn by pitching a card (5 cards at hand)
2) My opponent plays Wasteland and waste the Gemstone Caverns (6 cards at hand)
3) I draw a card (6 cards at hand)
So from this perspective, there is nothing on board, and we both have a 6 card hand, which is essentially the same has me going on play with both of us having a mulligan.

Since I am only playing two copies, this gives me a 22% chance of having it in my opening. Since the chance of me going on play is 50%, now it is essentially bumped up to 61%.

This is all in theory by the way, and I don't necessarily know if it will have more utility than Cavern of Souls. Probably not.


L10, I've looked at your list and I'm now curious on a few things.

First up, why only 2 Sphere? It is great and I would never play less than 3.

Secondly, how good is Gemstone for you? Seems like the guide plan would be better for it.

Thirdly, Orbs of Warding, how good are they for you? I never liked them over something like Witchbane which is more consistent turn 2 able for me.

Also out of interest why don't the Crucible/Mishra's versions play Buried? It ETB untapped and recurrs something like a decayed Chalice or metalworker?
1) Because of my land base, I can abuse Crucible of Worlds more. This gives me an edge against deck like Lands and Death and Taxes (which surprisingly, is fragile to land disruption). Also, my deck plays a surprising amount of two drops and one drops compared to a generic 12-Post list, so Trinisphere may actually work against me. Not having 4 Trinisphere does make my deck more susceptible to OmniTell though, but that's about it. Crucible just feels incredible powerful to me against most match-ups that are not OmniTell and Burn. Though, in Game 1 against Burn, having Crucible allows me to waste my own lands except Darksteel Citadel, save myself from PoP, and not be mana-screwed.

2) Don't know yet. It is a recent inclusion that I have no real opinion on. I recommend:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2-4 Darksteel Citadel
2-4 Cavern of Souls

3) Orbs of Warding has more utility, like against Grixis or BUG. I think it's okay. The SB changes a lot for me. I am also testing Razormane Masticore in that spot too. I feel Orbs of Warding is a win-more against Burn. Against Storm, neither Tendrils or EtW can kill you.

4) Buried Ruin is another tech you can use. I think it got weaker because of DRS being able to eat whatever creature you target. Getting a lock piece is nice but during the late game, I just want to draw into more threats or high impact cards. DRS is really the fun police. It's the same reason why Welder went out of favor.

PS: For my list, you can trade Crucible and Trinisphere for Thran Dynamo if you want. Thran Dynamo is great if you need a stable mana source and if you meta is Wasteland heavy. The problem is reaching the 4th mana. The good thing is, I had never once had anyone spending a counterspell on it. I am guessing because it's power level is non-obvious.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/78/862/200/283/635773890365036266.png

If you play Signets and Duals maybe cards like this can work.

PROS... Counter-Spell!, Evasion, Flash, Trades with flipped Delver (must answer) Good against Food Chain?.. Good against cards like Snapcaster if nothing else.
CONS... enables Delve, Threshold.

You get a counter-spell on a body. Compare with Mystic Snake ...

Go speculate now!

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/lg/61.jpg

Creatures with Ingest will exile cards.

Relic of Progenitus can exile graveyards.

but you can cast this as a counterspell against counter heavy decks with In The Eye Of Chaos for protection against Force. plus Trinisphere. I dunno.

[sun tzu]

ulamog's nullifier
This card is a HUGE stretch. Were basically in magical christmasland before this does anything. Theres many good counterspells if thats what you need, and many good creatures. I'd rather have a good creature or good counterspell than a half-assed version of both thats incredibly situational.

But it blocks delver I guess.

On an unrelated note. Has anyone tried a blue version with wasteland + stifle (or trickbind, or squelch, or teferi's command )?

Against wasteland stifle seems super golden, especially when you can further punish their wasteland + low mana count manabases with your own wastelands.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

People have tried two colour MUD decks with Signets, for instance Daretti MUD with Choke

so Blue Black MUD playing Chalice Trinisphere In the Eye Of Chaos + This is not totally crazy

there might be other ways to make the effect of cards-from-exile better, such as Ingest mechanic

[L10]

I have always viewed MUD of all variants as very proactive decks, not reactive decks. I don't think I would play counterspells unless it's free because I don't want to leave my mana up in the early game. I'd play with Rishadan Port to squeeze my opponent's manabase, which is especially good in combination of Wasteland, Lodestone Golem, and Trinisphere. I would also not splash more than one color for MUD since this thread is primarily about Metalworker strategies. If I do splash, it'd probably be for one very powerful card, like Daretti or the Abyss.

[potatodavid]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/78/862/200/283/635773890365036266.png

If you play Signets and Duals maybe cards like this can work.

PROS... Counter-Spell!, Evasion, Flash, Trades with flipped Delver (must answer) Good against Food Chain?.. Good against cards like Snapcaster if nothing else.
CONS... enables Delve, Threshold.

You get a counter-spell on a body. Compare with Mystic Snake ...

Go speculate now!

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/lg/61.jpg

Creatures with Ingest will exile cards.

Relic of Progenitus can exile graveyards.

but you can cast this as a counterspell against counter heavy decks with In The Eye Of Chaos for protection against Force. plus Trinisphere. I dunno.

Yeah no one will play that... Ever.

[sun tzu]

People have tried two colour MUD decks with Signets, for instance Daretti MUD with Choke

so Blue Black MUD playing Chalice Trinisphere In the Eye Of Chaos + This is not totally crazy

there might be other ways to make the effect of cards-from-exile better, such as Ingest mechanicthere is no way you are going to assemble the combo fast enough for it to not suck (this card in your hand, 4 mana in play, and 2 cards in their exile). like i said before, why would you ever run this over a better counterspell or a better creature? theres literally nothing in the deck that this is better than.

[L10]

So far, out of 30 total matches, I have been able to use Gemstone Caverns three times. First time, I was able to bring out Lightning Greaves turn 1. Second time, I was able to bring out Lodestone Golem turn 1 with Ancient Tomb and Grim Monolith. Third time, I was able to bring out Chalice with Daze protection. I mean, it was against DnT, but still. So far, I like it. But it has only been useful 1/10 matches. Is that enough to warrant playing the card? All three times, I was impressed. In the late game, especially against blue decks, I think I'd rather have Cavern of Souls. I think it is better than Moxen or Spirit Guides though. It being legendary didn't matter because I am only playing with two copies.

The only two counterspells I had ever played with MUD are Mental Misstep and Mindbreak Trap. But every deck was playing with Mental Misstep.

PS: I am leaning towards Cavern of Souls and Darksteel Citadel over Gemstone Caverns. But when Gemstone Caverns do work, it feels good.

[sun tzu]

So far, out of 30 total matches, I have been able to use Gemstone Caverns three times. First time, I was able to bring out Lightning Greaves turn 1. Second time, I was able to bring out Lodestone Golem turn 1 with Ancient Tomb and Grim Monolith. Third time, I was able to bring out Chalice with Daze protection. I mean, it was against DnT, but still. So far, I like it. But it has only been useful 1/10 matches. Is that enough to warrant playing the card? All three times, I was impressed. In the late game, especially against blue decks, I think I'd rather have Cavern of Souls. I think it is better than Moxen or Spirit Guides though. It being legendary didn't matter because I am only playing with two copies.

The only two counterspells I had ever played with MUD are Mental Misstep and Mindbreak Trap. But every deck was playing with Mental Misstep.

PS: I am leaning towards Cavern of Souls and Darksteel Citadel over Gemstone Caverns. But when Gemstone Caverns do work, it feels good.
Is it possible the only way to really test if this card is worth it is to use 4 copies? Or are lower numbers (you are only using 2) still going to work?

[L10]

I mean, we can just do math.

With 8 Sol Lands + 0 Gemstone Cavern is, there is a 65.36% chance of having one in the opening hand.
... 1 ... 70.02%
... 2 ... 74.14%
... 3 ... 77.76%
... 4 ... 80.94%

Let's assume that being on play and on draw are equal, then:
0: 65.36%
1: 67.69%
2: 69.75%
3: 71.56%
4: 73.15%

This means that with 1 copy of Gemstone Cavern, it would help you 1/43 matches to have exactly 2 mana on turn 1.
This means that with 2 copy of Gemstone Cavern, it would help you 1/23 matches to have exactly 2 mana on turn 1.
This means that with 3 copy of Gemstone Cavern, it would help you 1/16 matches to have exactly 2 mana on turn 1.
This means that with 4 copy of Gemstone Cavern, it would help you 1/13 matches to have exactly 2 mana on turn 1.

This makes sense. Out of my 30 matches, Gemstone Cavern helped me 3 times in total. However, 2/3 times, I had access to either City of Traitors or Ancient Tomb. On the other hand, with City of Traitors or Ancient Tomb, I have access to 3 mana right off the bat. Also, sometimes, playing City of Traitors on the first turn is a major risk, and having Gemstone Cavern out first makes the decision a lot easier. But overall, I don't think Gemstone Cavern is worth playing because it is ONLY useful on draw AND in your opening hand, and that the chance of getting the boost in acceleration is negligible. While any other land, including Ghost Town has intrinsic value when you draw into it.

Edit: More Math
Assuming the chance of being on play and on draw are equal, the chance of having Gemstone Cavern on DRAW and on your initial hand is:
1: 1/17
2: 1/9
3: 1/6
4: 1/5

This matches up with my experience. I have two copies in my deck and I was able to leyline in Gemstone Cavern in 1/10 matches.

All numbers are derived using the Hypergeometric Calculator.
http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx

[Silverflame]

I'ts also important to note that Gemstone Caverns is legendary, so being on the draw with 2 of them in hand is bad and 4 of them will give you awkward topdecks.

[L10]

Correct, this is precisely why I only play with two copies during testing. Having even three copies may give me awkward top decks on a deck that relies on top decks.

I made this chart mainly as a cheat sheet when I pilot ANT, but this is also relavent when asking the question, "should I jam that Chalice"?

http://i.imgur.com/3NiI7hO.png

This is why on play, Ancient Tomb -> Chalice is the correct call every time. City of Traitors -> Chalice has its own risks too, but against decks with 24 one-drops like Grixis Delver, it may be worth it. Especially against tempo decks because trying to resolve a Chalice on Turn 2 against a deck with Daze, FoW, and BS is grim. And this does not even take consideration of Spell Pierce. This is also why against Grixis Delver on draw, I would either jam Chalice Turn 1 or try to bait out a counterspell out on Turn 1. This is because waiting a turn to play around Daze doesn't really help, especially if a) they didn't have Daze and b) opens them up to BS for a counterspell. Playing MUD is all about figuring out the risk and reward. Sometimes, a Grim Monolith is worth more than Chalice because Wurmcoil Engine or Steel Hellkite can basically carry you to victory. Anyways, I hope some of you find this chart useful.

[lilevo]

Here is my latest list. http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/320778#online

I played MUD on daily events since last Thursday and I ended with a positive record, I have seen a lot of young pyro and miracles with mentor so I decided to mix the "token removal" between ratchet bomb, contagion engine and orbs of warding. Again I think Ugin should be at least 3 in the main a lot games I would trade 1 for 1 and Ugin would resolve carrying me to victory.

[darkgh0st]

Went to my usual FNM Legacy with the same 60, changing the SB a little:
-1 Ratchet Bomb, -1 Trading Post
+1 Tsabo's Web, +1 Coercive Portal

I went 4-0 again, only losing once to RUW Stoneblade. (8-1)

Round 1: I win the die roll (finally!!!) and keep my seven.
Game 1: I play Cloudpost, he Probes without a land (I put him on Storm), and sees a Chalice and Trinisphere. He tries to go off with Ad Nausem drawing him 9 cards, not finding an opening mana source (LED/Petal) draws another card and gets burnt. (1-0)
-1 Ugin, -1 Staff of Nin, -1 Spine of Ish Sah
+1 Thorn of Amethyst, +1 Trinisphere, +1 Orbs of Warding
Game 2: He plays fetch and passes. 1st turn Thorn, 3rd turn Trinisphere makes him scoop.
He told me he was packing two Hurkly's Recall, but didn't get one.
1-0 (2-0)

Round 2: Shardless BUG, losing the die roll. I was glad he beat Sneak and Show that I didn't want to play.
Game 1: 2nd Trinisphere sticks and he was casting one spell per turn, while I cast my fatties. (3-0)
-4 Chalice, -1 Lightning Greaves, -1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
+1 Coercive Portal, +1 Trinisphere, +1 Karn, +1 Ugin, +1 Wurmcoil Engine
Game 2: We both mull to six, I got Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Vesuva plus three artifacts. If he had a Wasteland, I would be set to play normal speed or be screwed. I keep anyways not wanting to mull to five. He is stuck with one land, while I punish him with Trinisphere. He gets up to 3 lands, but I get a Sundering Titan under a Cavern.
2-0(4-0)

Round 3: RUW Stoneblade, winning the die roll.
Game 1: Every card I played met removals, even my last Wurmcoil that would have saved me. He gets there with Stoneforge, Batterskull, and a surprise Jitte for the win. (4-1)
-3 Trinisphere, -1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
+1 Coercive Portal, +1 Wurmcoil Enginge, +1 Ugin, +1 Sundering Titan
Game 2: I have Cloudpost first turn, he has Pithing Needle on Kuldotha Forgemaster. I play Glimmerpost and get a Metalworker in, he Meddling Mages for Lodestone Golem. My third turn, I reveal 5 artifacts, play a land and make 4 more mana. If he has a counterspell, I would be put back, but I go for it anyways. I play Spine of Ish Sah on his Pithing Needle, play Forgemaster, then Lightning Greaves, all resolving. Fetch for Blightsteel and win. (5-1)
Game 3: He gets a TNN with Batterskull mid-game and put me down to 3, while I was able to resolve a Lightning Greaves and Coercive Portal early. The extra draw really mattered as I topdeck Hellkite, resolve it, equip greaves and blow up TNN. Hellkite goes all the way FTW. Glimmerposts also mattered a lot as it kept me in the game, I would have lost without it.
3-0 (6-1)

Round 4: RUW Stoneblade, winning the die roll (Yes! 3 out of 4 tonight)
Game 1: He had Stoneforge turn two fetching for Batterskull. I had three Cloudposts turn one, two and three, playing Trinisphere and Metalworker, which both got FoWed. Turn four, I played my last land which was Glimmerpost. I had too much mana and fatties from there on to not win. (7-1)
-3 Trinisphere, -1 Kuldotha Forgemaster, -1 Lightning Greaves
+1 Coercive Portal, +1 Wurmcoil Enginge, +1 Ugin, +1 Sundering Titan, +1 Karn
I SB'ed Karn remembering Blood Moons from the match up (but forgetting it earlier).
Game 2: He Pierces a turn two Monolith, and gets Blood Moon out with TNN later. I punt some and he punts some making it favored more for me. I go down to single digits before stabilizing with Forgemaster, Greaves and some artifacts to pitch for Steel Hellkite. Steel Hellkite gets there again FTW.
4-0 (8-1)

No mulls to five tonight.

Steel Hellkite and Sundering Titan have proven themselves this week and last week, so my 60 is set. Though, now I am doubting Orbs of Warding's protection. Thorn of Amethyst seem more of a favorable card still.

[InWaking]

I was browsing the Legacy SCG IQ decklists and Julian Brasci got 5th in his local IQ. He has ventured away from the Locus plan that I am away from as well and he has notably included two Jitte. Jitte's inclusion is super interesting to me, if he were to play Revokers main this list could be super aggro as he had also opted out of Ugin. Just wanted to post his list and make note of it.
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Batterskull
1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Myr Battlesphere
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Staff Of Domination
1 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Trinisphere
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 Sundering Titan
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory

Sideboard
2 Orbs of Warding
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Trinisphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
2 Tormod's Crypt

[L10]

Julian is a buddy of mine. He went with the Jitte because he expected more creature match ups. We originally had two Crucible in main for the Ghost Quarter but he opted to put one on the side in favor of Staff of Domination. He decided to opt out Ugin because we want this to be more of a Metalworker / Forgemaster deck. This way, we can have Sundering Titan and Myr Battlesphere without destroying our curve.

[InWaking]

Julian is a buddy of mine. He went with the Jitte because he expected more creature match ups. We originally had two Crucible in main for the Ghost Quarter but he opted to put one on the side in favor of Staff of Domination. He decided to opt out Ugin because we want this to be more of a Metalworker / Forgemaster deck. This way, we can have Sundering Titan and Myr Battlesphere without destroying our curve.

seems interesting to cut a forgemaster when you want to be more of a forgemaster deck. Have you considered doing a more aggro route?

[L10]

It would be interesting, but he is playing the four. He is playing with 3 Wurmcoil Engine though. Personally, I rather do a 2/2 split with Steel Hellkite.

If you are interested in playing a more aggro variant of MUD, have you ever tried MUD Stompy? That's the deck that Fropper and Zirath use to play quite a bit back in 2011 to 2012, and is one of my favorite MUD variants. You can try something like this:

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith

4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Steel Hellkite
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Batterskull

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Crucible of Worlds

Basically, the idea is to jam down a threat ASAP and beat face, then deny your opponent of resources. You really only need one or two giant robot. None of the robots curve is higher than 6 because getting the 7th or 8th may mean a turn delay. You can make room for Ugin or Razormane Masticore too. I am planning to play less Batterskull for Razormane Masticore with the release of Titan's Presence.

[ZEROorDIE]

Made 25th of 169 in the legacy IQ in Worcester today. Deck preformed pretty well. I'll try and get some type of tournament report up tomorrow. Pretty tired ATM

[darkgh0st]

I'm feeling like Endless One (BFZ spoiled) should have a room in my SB as an artifact-hate proof beater with big possibilities.

@ZEROorDIE: thrilled to see your report.

[Silverflame]

Now we're talking or win more? You can trigger it even if the spell is countered.

https://bb0c19df026b164266e3-5681979904e209d2a403017b5d3ce971.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/0242_MTGBFZ_EN_HRR-1.png

[potatodavid]

Now we're talking or win more? You can trigger it even if the spell is countered.

https://bb0c19df026b164266e3-5681979904e209d2a403017b5d3ce971.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/0242_MTGBFZ_EN_HRR-1.png

I might try this in singleton. Seems like it could be alright.

[InWaking]

Now we're talking or win more? You can trigger it even if the spell is countered.

https://bb0c19df026b164266e3-5681979904e209d2a403017b5d3ce971.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/0242_MTGBFZ_EN_HRR-1.png

I would also try this as a singleton it doesn't seem like the worst.

[Wilkin]

Now we're talking or win more? You can trigger it even if the spell is countered.

https://bb0c19df026b164266e3-5681979904e209d2a403017b5d3ce971.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/0242_MTGBFZ_EN_HRR-1.png

It's not win more if the first dude gets countered/plowed etc.

I think it's worth looking at for sure. I wonder how many creatures you would need to run to make it worth it. Looking at my version of MUD, I only have 1 Sundering Titan and 1 Blightsteel Colossus main. I'd need more 7+ mana creatures IMO. Hey Myr Enforcer is a 7 mana dude that is usually cast for much much cheaper j/k.

Too bad it wasn't 6 mana and up. That would be nuts, triggering after every cast Wurmcoil Engine, Steel Hellkite etc.

[InWaking]

It's not win more if the first dude gets countered/plowed etc.

I think it's worth looking at for sure. I wonder how many creatures you would need to run to make it worth it. Looking at my version of MUD, I only have 1 Sundering Titan and 1 Blightsteel Colossus main. I'd need more 7+ mana creatures IMO. Hey Myr Enforcer is a 7 mana dude that is usually cast for much much cheaper j/k.

Too bad it wasn't 6 mana and up. That would be nuts, triggering after every cast Wurmcoil Engine, Steel Hellkite etc.

you may be missing the colorless spell aspect of it?

[Wilkin]

you may be missing the colorless spell aspect of it?

Actually, I missed the part where the creature you tutor for is any mana cost. :) Cool, it's better than I thought.

Still, you need (IMO) a decent number of creatures to cast in order to trigger the ability. I do cast Titan quite often which is nice. I've even cast Colossus, although the majority of the time he sees play via Forgemaster. Like I said, I currently have 2 creatures that trigger the land. I'm not sure that's enough to merit a slot with the build I have. For others I'm sure it's good as you may have more Titans, Myr Battlesphere etc.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/79/22/200/283/635778563698027444.png

BOOM!

Land

T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
6, T, sacrifice this: Put 3 colourless 1/1 eldrazi scion creature tokens to the battlefield. They have sacrifice this: add 1 to your mana pool.

at least you don't need 7 lands like for the other one .

I realize Crystal Vein already exists, but this is 1 more mana than Crystal Vein.. delayed for a turn.

I guess it is also terrible .

…

DID ANYBODY NOTICE ,

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/78/619/200/283/635764819496859446.png

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/lg/301.jpg

this guy?

He's a 4/4 that Sol Ring's you . He doesn't draw cards like Hedron Archive but he's a 4/4 .

[Clark Kant]

Return to Zendikar might just push this deck up a tier. But I'm guessing, we will be dumping Metalworkers from our lists as our reliance on artifacts falls some more.

[L10]

It's not win more if the first dude gets countered/plowed etc.

I think it's worth looking at for sure. I wonder how many creatures you would need to run to make it worth it. Looking at my version of MUD, I only have 1 Sundering Titan and 1 Blightsteel Colossus main. I'd need more 7+ mana creatures IMO. Hey Myr Enforcer is a 7 mana dude that is usually cast for much much cheaper j/k.

Too bad it wasn't 6 mana and up. That would be nuts, triggering after every cast Wurmcoil Engine, Steel Hellkite etc.
I would not necessarily add more +7CMC robots unless you want to completely wreck your curve. If I want to abuse this card, I'd probably get rid of Blightsteel Colossus to play more robots I can reasonably cast, like Platinum Emperion, Platinum Angel, Myr Battlesphere, Sundering Titan, or a lower-end Eldrazi. Conduit of Ruin can act as a pseudo +7CMC beater, albeit, not a robot but an Eldrazi, which may not work well in a Metalworker strategy deck. With Conduit of Ruin, you can do something like:

Turn X - Cast Ugin (8 mana), crack Sactum of Ugin to search for Conduit of Ruin
Turn X+1 - Cast Conduit of Ruin (6 mana) to search for Myr Battlesphere
Turn X+2 - Play Sanctum of Ugin from grave with Crucible of Worlds, Cast Myr Battlesphere (5 mana), crack Sactum of Ugin to search for Conduit of Ruin
Turn X+3 - Cast Conduit of Ruin (4 mana) to search for Sundering Titan
etc.

With the stock 12-Post Metalworker list, I don't think there is much use for Sactum of Ugin. To be honest, I think our sister deck, Turbo Eldrazi, may have more use of this card, because they have ways to search for specific lands (via Crop Rotation and Expedition Map) and able to stabilize their manabase against Wasteland better with cards like Pithing Needle and Trickbind.


http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/78/619/200/283/635764819496859446.png

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/lg/301.jpg

this guy?

He's a 4/4 that Sol Ring's you . He doesn't draw cards like Hedron Archive but he's a 4/4 .

He is also just Palladium Myr + Bear. I think the main issue with this card is that you can't use its ability immediately, is not as powerful as Metalworker (which is worth the risk), and is not a robot. Being Bolt proof is relevant though.

Frankly, unless there is a Eldrazi as powerful and cost efficient as Ugin, I don't think I will be interested. It wouldn't bode well with our strategy, which is based off of Metalworker and artifacts.

If you guys want to design a Mono-Brown Cloudpost deck that forgoes Metalworker, that's a different topic entirely.

[potatodavid]

Return to Zendikar might just push this deck up a tier. But I'm guessing, we will be dumping Metalworkers from our lists as our reliance on artifacts falls some more.


Yeah... this wont happen. That's the point of the deck. If we want to play bad eldrazi, then we'll play bad eldrazi but it wont be called MUD or metalworker.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

MUD doesn't have to include Metalworker or Grim Monolith
these are the two cards I see being cut for Hedron Archive (with draw 2) and the 4/4

this gives the deck more ramp effects (Sol lands)

Thran Dynamo floods you out . doesn't draw, doesn't cantrip.

Hedron Archive is going to change the deck a lot I think

I think the 4/4 will draw removal, so it's good . More of a hate magnet than Metalworker

he's also a creature to reveal with that new removal spell

[darkgh0st]

MUD doesn't have to include Metalworker or Grim Monolith
these are the two cards I see being cut for Hedron Archive (with draw 2) and the 4/4

this gives the deck more ramp effects (Sol lands)

Thran Dynamo floods you out . doesn't draw, doesn't cantrip.

Hedron Archive is going to change the deck a lot I think

I think the 4/4 will draw removal, so it's good . More of a hate magnet than Metalworker

he's also a creature to reveal with that new removal spell

Without Metalworker it can still pass off as MUD/Stax.
Without Grim Monolith as well, there's no way that can be called MUD.
And when you add your Eldrazis, it sounds like you'll conflict with Lodestone.

[ZEROorDIE]

The list I've been playing has for 7+cmc spells:
2 ugin
2 sundering titan
1 platinum angel
1spine of ish sha
1 blightsteel colossus

I may test a one of sanctum of ugin in place of the third vesuva, but I'm not sure I see it being worth it since most of the time these guys are forgemasted for rather than cast.

[James718]

Anyway to add the new Ugin's Insight into here? Or is the double blue too much of a restriction?

[Silverflame]

The list I've been playing has for 7+cmc spells:
2 ugin
2 sundering titan
1 platinum angel
1spine of ish sha
1 blightsteel colossus

I may test a one of sanctum of ugin in place of the third vesuva, but I'm not sure I see it being worth it since most of the time these guys are forgemasted for rather than cast.

my list runs that +1 platinum emperion. That's the perk of having 4 vesuva. I'll remove a cavern of souls for a sanctum, because cavern as powerful as it is, is not relevant in all matches like the sanctum. if I feel it became too slow, I might lower the curve and go 2-2 on cavern/waste and remove 1 vesuva and 1 city for sanctums. That will reduce the amount of T1 chalice, but I managed to cash in with a list with 2 cities MD in both tournaments I used it, although it wasn't tested thoroughly.

[L10]

MUD doesn't have to include Metalworker or Grim Monolith
these are the two cards I see being cut for Hedron Archive (with draw 2) and the 4/4

this gives the deck more ramp effects (Sol lands)

Thran Dynamo floods you out . doesn't draw, doesn't cantrip.

Hedron Archive is going to change the deck a lot I think

I think the 4/4 will draw removal, so it's good . More of a hate magnet than Metalworker

he's also a creature to reveal with that new removal spell

We play Metalworker and Grim Monolith specifically to ramp into big spells as soon as we can, by turn two or three. A ramp spell that cost 4 or 5 mana does not help in that regard. Those spells serve as mana stabilizers in the mid game. They serve a complete different purpose. You can compare Hedron Archive and Kozilek's Channeler to Thran Dynamo, sure. But comparing those two cards to Grim Monolith and Metalworker is a stretch.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/79/74/200/283/635779428889910421.jpeg

Blighted Cataract

Land

T: add 1 to your mana pool.

5U, T, sacrifice this: Draw two cards.

that blue mana symbol

wizards what the heck..

[ZEROorDIE]

Yeah, this set honestly is too "colorless" based rather than artifact. i dont think we'll get much from this one.

Alright, as i said i would, tournament report from worcester this past weekend. Little history first, I started magic in 96 and played until 02, then took a looong hiatus until i picked it up again last year around the time Khans came out. I play mostly Legacy but dabble in limited and standard. i definitely prefer constructed formats. Ive been playing this deck since Jan 2015 after playing a bunch of janky sneak attack decks following my return. so...

Here we go

List:

Creatures
4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
3x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Platinum Angel
2x Sundering Titan
1x Blightsteel Colossus

Artifacts
4x Grim Monolith
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Trinisphere
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Staff of Domination
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Coercive Portal

Planeswalkers
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
3x Vesuva
3x Cavern of Souls
2x Wasteland

Sideboard
2x Tormod’s Crypt
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Spellskite
2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Staff of Nin
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Karn Liberated
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn



R1- Miracles
G1- i start off strong. hitting my land drops and dropping early chalice and a bunch of dudes. i manage to get him down to 2 life, but he has jace on board and has leveled my board with StP+terminus. he ultimates jace and i lose the game at 37 life.(had 6 glimmerpost 4 real 2 vesuva)
G2- Very similar. i had hardcast blightsteel twice, he Jace bounced, i have him at 5 with a lodestone golem after he StP the other lodestone and blightsteel in hand still after he snap kept his Senseis top scry(i know hes keeping a terminus on top in case i cast blightsteel again.) he terminuses my lodestone and ultimates jace i play blightsteel into a counterpell and lose.

SB tech- in- x2 revoker, x1 spine of ish sha, x1 Karn; out- 1 forgemaster, 1 wurmcoil, 1 ugin, 1 crucible of worlds

0-1

R2- Elves- my opponent is Danny Jessup, this should be interesting.
G1- i drop chalice not knowing what hes on, he plays verdant catacombs pass, dont rememebr much after this but rec sage and craterhoof make sure im dead by t4
G2- t1- tomb-monolith-3sphere, t2 tomb, lodestone, he decays the sphere, and goes off with craterhoof

SB tech- in-x2 ratchet bomb, x2 ensnaring bridge, x1 staff of nin, x1 steel hellkite; out- 1 forgemaster, 1 platinum angel, 1 chalice, 1 crucible, 1 coercive portal, 1 sundering titan

0-2

little bummed at this point, my losses felt inevitable

R3- Merfolk/fish idk
G1- Mull to 5, keep a hand with 3sphere, lodestone, titan, city and vesuva- i lose very quickly.

i stop here for a second to ask my deck not to crap itself anymore as i didnt really want to 0-3 drop

G2- drop turn 1 metalworker, on t2 lodestone t3 forgemaster, pass, EoT get blightsteel, swing for the win- Alright thats what im talking about
G3- i stick an early metalworker, and lodestone, he clogs up the board with merfolk and bounces one or two of my dudes with harbinger of tides, i promptly play ugin, blow out his board and hardcast blightsteel the following turn.

SB tech- in- x2 ratchet bomb, x1 staff of nin; out- 1 forgemaster, 1 crucible, 1 coercive portal

1-2

R4- Merfolk again- good ole x-2 bracket
G1- t2 cercive portal, t3 metalworker and 3sphere off of a monolith, t4 forgemaster and two chalice on 0, pass, EoT blightsteel FTW
G2- i play a t2 wurmcoil off 2 monlith, he phantasmal images my wurncoil, we stare at each other awkwardly for a minute, he attacks, i block, same the following turn, but i cast a metalworker, he plays some fish and passes back, i play staff of domination and combo off

SB tech- Same as above

2-2 picking up some gas, but have a lot of work to do

R5-Death and Taxes
G1- he does standard DnT things(Mom x2, wasteland, stoneforge, batterskull) but lets me untap with an active metalworker, i play staff and go off.
G2- same shenanigans, for some reason didnt board out Mom, i play lots of post mana, a greaves, then hardcast a blightsteel colossus and equip greaves, he blocks with most of his dudes and dies the next turn

SB tech- in- x2 Ratchet bomb, x2 revoker, x1 staff of nin; out- 1 forgemaster, 1 coercive portal, 1 staff of dom, 1 platinum angel, 1 titan; may have also pulled a wurmcoil for another crucible

3-2

R6- Omni-Tell- opponent is Bob Huang, writer for CFB who just wrote a very nice piece on the history of legacy.
G1- get my lock pieces countered but he does t3 SnT, he goes for emrakul, i go for blightsteel, he passes, i attack, he blocks and now has a 4/4 emrakul, i manage to get 7 permanants on board so when he swings with emrakul i can keep blightsteel and win
G2- i get him down to 4 with a whole bunch of tax effects and 2 3sphere on board, he combos off and wins
G3- t2 or 3 staff/metalworker combo

SB tech- in- x2 ensnaring bridge, x1 emrakul; out- 1 wurmcoil, 1 titan, 1 ugin

4-2

R7- Death and taxes
G1- t1 city-monolith-metalworker, t2- sundering titan for nothing since his first land was a cavern of souls, he StP the titan after i get to attack with it once, t3 staff of domination, go nuts
G2- cast a t2 or 3 forgemaster but first have to dig up staff of nin to kill a mangara of coronder, draw a lightning greaves and a monolith, play both, then the following turn forgemaster up blightsteel, equip greaves and win

SB tech- close enough to the above

5-2

R8- Grixis control- nice guy, neither of us will make top 16 so we ID guaranteeing us both top 32. play a couple games anyway
G1- i get a t1 chalice, t2 lodestone, but have totally check out at this point and miss like 3 chalice triggers. i lose to an army of pyromancer tokens
G2- i dont even remember, no notes taken, i mulled into crap at 5 cards and didnt do much.

SB tech- in- x2 ratchet bomb, x1 spellskite, x1 steel hellkite; out- 1 forgemaster, 1 platinum angel, 1 staff, 1 coercive portal

5-2-1, 25th of 169 for the day

[potatodavid]

I've always felt like Elves is a complete coin-flip. Especially now that they have reclamation sage. That used to be a pretty favorable MU.

[L10]

R1- Miracles
SB tech- in- x2 revoker, x1 spine of ish sha, x1 Karn; out- 1 forgemaster, 1 wurmcoil, 1 ugin, 1 crucible of worlds
I'd SB Blightsteel Colossus out since Sundering Titan is always the best target and Miracles has good answers against Blightsteel. Answering Sundering Titan usually means a net loss of 5-6 Lands. I would have kept Ugin in too. If you had 4 Wastelands, Crucibles are worth keeping in because Wastelands are pretty strong against a mana hungry deck that is Miracles. I think Wurmcoil Engine is better than Platinum Angel because Wurmcoil Engine is much more aggressive, and Miracles can answer Platinum Angel pretty well. I don't think I'd had cut the Forgemaster.


R2- Elves
SB tech- in-x2 ratchet bomb, x2 ensnaring bridge, x1 staff of nin, x1 steel hellkite; out- 1 forgemaster, 1 platinum angel, 1 chalice, 1 crucible, 1 coercive portal, 1 sundering titan
I would not have taken out the Forgemaster or the Chalice. Putting in the Ensnaring Bridge is questionable because it probably stop you more than the elves player, since they can either a) go under the bridge, or b) blow it up when it is convenient for them.

[darkgh0st]

@ZEROorDIE: pretty good performance especially after almost getting 0-3 dropped. :eek:

[ZEROorDIE]

Thanks for the tips. My thought process on keeping the angel was defense against clique, TNN, entreat, while I get very little value from wurmcoil if it gets countered/terminus/swords to plowshares.

Do you ever think its right to board out forgemasters in any quantity?

And tips against elves? Historically I've done pretty well against miracles, bit I almost always struggle against elves.

I'm still debating the MD crucible. It wasn't really that relevant, I was expecting a lot more wastelands than I saw and I only play two in my deck. I also can't say enough about coercive portal. Every time I've resolved that card, it marked the beginning of the end for my opponent and I can usually get it down a turn or two faster than staff of nin.

[potatodavid]

Do you ever think its right to board out forgemasters in any quantity?

And tips against elves?

I'm still debating the MD crucible. It wasn't really that relevant,.


1. I never drop below 3, but there's games where i'll shave 1 just when we want a piece of faster hate.

2. Multiple chalice/ trinisphere, and SB grafdigger's cage if you have it, they can't Green sun or natty order through that. They are a deck that entirely built on board position. If you can land a contaigon engine, they're fucked. It used to be a favorable match-up. It's not the case anymore. They have access to a lot of stuff.

3. I wouldn't MD crucible, because wasteland is getting worse and worse at the moment. (thanks delve spells).

[darkgh0st]

Thanks for the tips. My thought process on keeping the angel was defense against clique, TNN, entreat, while I get very little value from wurmcoil if it gets countered/terminus/swords to plowshares.
What I like about facing Miracles is that you can have a very slow start and not have to worry about dying, and you can build up your manabase at ease.Resolving a planeswalker or a Staff takes you very far, and creatures are generally low impact (Revokers, and even Lodestone sometimes)

Do you ever think its right to board out forgemasters in any quantity?
Against decks that don't have any solution to Forgemaster combo, No.
Against decks with solutions to Forgemaster (Stifle, Null Rod, Revoker), take him out as long as you replace him with stuff that's not vulnerable to the same things. For the most part, you'll end up only taking one out.

And tips against elves? Historically I've done pretty well against miracles, bit I almost always struggle against elves.
I feel like Elves is our worst match up. Tips? Its combo vs combo. Win the die roll, keep a hand that can Chalice/Trinisphere early (Chalice preferred) and combo off before GSZ/Decay can get you.

I'm still debating the MD crucible. It wasn't really that relevant, I was expecting a lot more wastelands than I saw and I only play two in my deck. I also can't say enough about coercive portal. Every time I've resolved that card, it marked the beginning of the end for my opponent and I can usually get it down a turn or two faster than staff of nin.
Yeah, 1 Crucible SB is good enough.

[L10]

Mostly agree with the points above.

My thought process on keeping the angel was defense against clique, TNN, entreat, while I get very little value from wurmcoil if it gets countered/terminus/swords to plowshares.
Why not Steel Hellkite? It can block against an entreat (it can actually force your opponent to double block with entreat too) and can solve TNN. Though, I don't think Miracles plays with TNN. I don't like Angel in this match-up because it really just reads as a 4/4 Flyer for 7CMC.


Do you ever think its right to board out forgemasters in any quantity?
The only time I really bring out Forgemaster is against RUG Delver, and some Stoneblade builds, because of Stifle.


And tips against elves? Historically I've done pretty well against miracles, bit I almost always struggle against elves.
Aside from what's stated above, against creature heavy metas like when both Elves and DnT were DTB (pre-Treasure Cruise), I would have 4 Revokers, 2 Jittes, and 2 Torpor Orbs in my SB. Revoker pretty much names Symbiote 80% of the time, Heritage Druid 20% of the time. Jitte can be worn by an early Metalworker, Revoker, Golem, or Mishra's Factory and slowly eat away elves. I normally save a couple counters because Symbiote and Visionary are public enemy #1. I even like Jitte in the Infect match-up. Torpor Orbs pretty much prevents Elves doing anything truly relevant until they find an Abrupt Decay. Pre-TC, in my MUD Stompy build, I would have 4 Vault of Wispers and 2 Urborg (which goes nice with Ancient Tomb) for two MD The Abyss and two SB Engineered Plague. In my Daretti build, I have to 3 Whipflare in my SB. Back when DnT and Stoneblade was all the rage, I would play with two copies of Phyrexian Metamorph (MD) to copy Stoneforge so I can fetch for my own Batterskull (MD), Jitte (SB), SoFaI (SB), and SoLaS (SB).


I'm still debating the MD crucible. It wasn't really that relevant, I was expecting a lot more wastelands than I saw and I only play two in my deck. I also can't say enough about coercive portal. Every time I've resolved that card, it marked the beginning of the end for my opponent and I can usually get it down a turn or two faster than staff of nin.
I really like Crucible in this meta because Wasteland lock is pretty strong despite of the Delve mechanic. Your deck don't take full advantage of Crucible though, so it is probably better for you to put it in the SB.

[potatodavid]

I'm finding wasteland to be such a double edge sword right now. I'm not running the full 4 for that reason. It's an extremely clutch land when it needs to be. But my meta has so much lands and Omni-Tell. It's almost a dead draw.

[Stuart]

I'm finding wasteland to be such a double edge sword right now. I'm not running the full 4 for that reason. It's an extremely clutch land when it needs to be. But my meta has so much lands and Omni-Tell. It's almost a dead draw.

Wasteland is good in a meta with lots of Lands, especially if you're also boarding Crucible. Waste their Thespian Stage when they activate it and they don't get their Marit Lage, and getting a Crucible lock can be devastating after a Chalice on 2.

[L10]

I agree with Stuart in that Wasteland is good against Lands, especially with Crucible. Not only against Marit Lage, but also against Tabernacle and Maze of Ith. Just remember that you don't have to pay for Blightsteel since Tabernacle destroys, and Blightsteel is Indestructible. Wasteland can still be good against Burn to destroy their one-off Taiga for Destructive Revelry, as well as killing your own lands vs. PoP. Wasteland is pretty bad against Show and Tell though, but is only as bad as Cavern of Souls vs. non-blue decks. Though, naming Shapeshifter vs. non-blue decks to cast Phyrexian Metamorph can be pretty clutch.

[Mockingbird]

Return to Zendikar might just push this deck up a tier. But I'm guessing, we will be dumping Metalworkers from our lists as our reliance on artifacts falls some more.Nope. If I knew that I was going to play only MUD for the rest of my life, I would give the entire Battle for Zendikar expansion back to Wizards in exchange for a cheap, consistent artifact whose effect is a one-sided draw or search engine.

[Stuart]

I agree with Stuart in that Wasteland is good against Lands, especially with Crucible. Not only against Marit Lage, but also against Tabernacle and Maze of Ith. Just remember that you don't have to pay for Blightsteel since Tabernacle destroys, and Blightsteel is Indestructible. Wasteland can still be good against Burn to destroy their one-off Taiga for Destructive Revelry, as well as killing your own lands vs. PoP. Wasteland is pretty bad against Show and Tell though, but is only as bad as Cavern of Souls vs. non-blue decks. Though, naming Shapeshifter vs. non-blue decks to cast Phyrexian Metamorph can be pretty clutch.

Yep, all good points. Lands isn't the easiest matchup, but we're better suited for it than some decks.

Anyway, just got back from Pat's Games Thurs Night Legacy. Good turnout - 16 players, I think? My list:

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone
4 Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil
1 Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel
2 Ugin

4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
2 Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine of Ish Sah

4 Wasteland
4 Tomb
1 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva

1 Platinum Angel
2 All is Dust
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Crucible
3 Tsabo's Web

Round I: Goblins
- Game 1: I'm off to a slow start, but then I Forgemaster out a Blighsteel on Greaves and win shortly thereafter.
- Game 2: Staff & Metalworker combo.

Round II: Omnitell
- Game 1: Show and Tell gets us Omniscience, and Wurmcoil, but he can't find his Emrakul and I get him.
- Game 2: He combos off.
- Game 3: I Show and Tell into a Spine to whack his Omniscience, then eventually lock it up with Ugin.

Round III: ANT
- Game 1: Chalice and Sphere do the work.
- Game 2: Thorn and Chalice do the work.

Round IV: ANT
- Game 1: Chalice locks him out.
- Game 2: Trinisphere and Wasteland lock him out.

So 4-0 felt nice, but 3 of those 4 were just easy MUD match ups. The deck is so well positioned right now.

On a side note, I highly recommend Pat's Games to anyone near Austin TX. I moved here from Boston at the beginning of September, and it's a great MtG scene. Awesome people, good crowds every time I go in.

[L10]

How do you normally SB against OmniTell? For me, I have always taken out Ugin because I didn't think he'd create enough impact and would cost too much with multiple resistors, Thorn of Amethyst and Lodestone Golem, in play.

[potatodavid]

So 4-0 felt nice, but 3 of those 4 were just easy MUD match ups. .

Good work!

Goblins can be a crapshoot depending on what they're splashing. I have a friend that packs mainboard cabal therapy's then brings Thoughtseize in post board. Quite brutal if he takes all your threats and attrition pieces.

[Stuart]

How do you normally SB against OmniTell? For me, I have always taken out Ugin because I didn't think he'd create enough impact and would cost too much with multiple resistors, Thorn of Amethyst and Lodestone Golem, in play.

Ugin makes sense to cut. Yesterday I didn't sideboard in that match, but generally speaking, I'd say +2 Thorn and -2 Ugin.

Potatodavid: yeah I could see that being rough. Still, I feel like it's fine; they aren't too quick to handle, and our threats outweigh theirs (especially when you get to topdeck mode).

[potatodavid]

Ugin makes sense to cut. Yesterday I didn't sideboard in that match, but generally speaking, I'd say +2 Thorn and -2 Ugin.

Potatodavid: yeah I could see that being rough. Still, I feel like it's fine; they aren't too quick to handle, and our threats outweigh theirs (especially when you get to topdeck mode).

They kick our ass in topdeck mode. Ringleader = 4 mana draw 0-4 cards. Matron = Go get whatever. They're running Cavern so Chalice is a bad card against them.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

I'm finding wasteland to be such a double edge sword right now. I'm not running the full 4 for that reason. It's an extremely clutch land when it needs to be. But my meta has so much lands and Omni-Tell. It's almost a dead draw.

I don't like playing Wasteland anymore I've sided it out .

Don't forget,

Buried Ruin

Tower of the magistrate (makes equipment fall off)

Blasted Landscape

Haven Of the Spirit Dragon

Darksteel Citadel (Forgemaster/metalworker food)

another bad land is Mishra's Factory.. it doesn't do much against tokens or germ . i never have reason to activate it. it's good against miracles and liliana though.

[Stuart]

They kick our ass in topdeck mode. Ringleader = 4 mana draw 0-4 cards. Matron = Go get whatever. They're running Cavern so Chalice is a bad card against them.

Fair enough, and obviously YMMV, but so many of our topdecks (Wurmcoil, Hellkite, Titan, Colossus, Ugin, Coercive Portal, and Staff of Nin) feel to me like they outclass anything Goblins can manage. But then again, I have very little experience with the Goblins matchup and it seems like you know it well, so maybe I just got lucky last night.

Troll: Still a bit surprised at the Wasteland hate. Yeah, it can be tough to use, but a well-timed Waste can totally shut down Delver, ANT, and anything else with a greedy manabase. I've found that if you're willing to Waste early and play the long game, you'll catch up turns 2-4 while the greedier decks never recover (especially if you can follow up with a Chalice or Sphere).

[L10]

So the whole set has been spoiled. So far, I may pick up two copies of Hedron Archive and two copies of Titan’s Presence. I am going to try Hedron Archive in place of Thran Dynamo. Though, Hedron Archive only generating three mana with Voltaic Key compared to five mana that Thran Dynamo can generate is a major negative. Even with just one mana short, it could mean the difference between being able to cast a Ugin or not. I think Titan's Presence could see play in MUD Stompy. It would have been better for two mana though because it will now cost four mana under a Lodestone Golem. I also have doubts that Titan's Presence would fair better than a sword like Jitte or SoFaI. The whole set has been underwhelming.

[InWaking]

The whole set has been underwhelming.

I am very much so in concurrence. It seems to be strictly limited centric. I like Titan's Presence and there is good reason to think it would be as good in a deck with swords/jitte. I've been thinking of trying a more aggressive build of MUD for a while now.

[InWaking]

Also I may have been cheating in IRL magic all this time or this interaction has not come up for me but if you have a Trinisphere in play is it not possible to cast a Chalice of the Void with one counter on it? I built a version of MUD on MTGO today and when I cast Trinisphere I could no longer play a Chalice for 1.

[darkgh0st]

Also I may have been cheating in IRL magic all this time or this interaction has not come up for me but if you have a Trinisphere in play is it not possible to cast a Chalice of the Void with one counter on it? I built a version of MUD on MTGO today and when I cast Trinisphere I could no longer play a Chalice for 1.

You should be able to. Maybe it is a bug in MTGO. If Chalice has X @1, its CC will be 2, and Trinisphere bumps it up to 3.

[L10]

Yeah, it is either a bug or you are not doing it right. Fun fact, Engineered Explosives' counters are based on Sunburst. So if your opponent wants to cast EE for 0, but you have a Trinisphere out, it may force them to pay something like UUB. I this case, EE gets two counters on it because UB was used to cast it, regardless of the intent to set it to 0. Something you should look out for.

Looking at the spoilers again, I think I am just going to save my money.

[ZEROorDIE]

It's a shame, but I wasn't expecting too terribly much for mud, just cool eldrazi. Zendikar has always been colorless eldrazi stuff. We're looking for another mirrodin or phyrexian set for artifacts.

Looking to make a minor tweak on the above list and would like some input.

Either:

-1 city of traitors, +1 wasteland. Keep MD crucible

Or

-1 crucible, +1 coercive portal

I feel like right now I'm floating in between commiting to one of two things for my flex slots and would like to either focus more on the land destruction and recursion or a stronger card draw engine. A third option could always be dropping wasteland entirely for a couple factory or darksteel citadel to feed forgemaster. Currently leaning towards the second portal and don't really care for the third option but haven't tested it at all.

[LeaPlath]

So in my local meta MUD is highly represented. I can always expect 2 MUD decks, and for the past two monthly there have been at least 2 MUD decks.

As I understand it, the more important things are:

-Who ever plays the first Cloudpost gains a serious advantage due to them being able to tap theirs first and gain mana from your Locus.

-Staff of Dominion is a hugely important card in this match up for stopping big blightsteel swings etc and one person will probably end up comboing off due to no disruption.

-The first 8 cards to come out are Chalice and Trinisphere. You replace them with literally anything else that is a big creature.

-Expect craziness. I've had 4 cloudposts tapping for 8 each and used them with staff to draw 7 a turn with staff.

-Hellkite is the second best threat after Blightsteel.

-Welder MUD beats normal MUD

Opinions?

[darkgh0st]

I've played a lot of 12-post/mirrors in the past. Blightsteel vs Blightsteel, Wurmcoil vs Wurmcoil. The best threat is Karn, then Crucible+Wasteland. If you're thinking best creature threat, then yes for the late game, Metalworker/Forgemaster are threats early game.

First Cloudpost is not necessarily a serious advantage because you can screw them with Wasteland. 1st Metalworker in play is more dangerous than 1st Cloudpost. I've used Duplicant on a Metalworker, and Spine on Cloudpost just to hamper opponents before. Manabase is important.

And Welder MUD doesn't necessarily beat normal MUD. Welder MUD has to give up either the post lands or Wasteland to splash red and is more reliant on Welder/Metalworker/Sol Lands. Plus we have answers in our SB to Welder

[hartigan]

Got 31st at SCG Milwaukee Legacy Premier IQ with Welder MUD.

Deck felt pretty solid against the field my losses mostly involved a strong start and then drawing a lot of air as well as the occasional nuts DTT from my opponent and also a Dack Fayden + Null Rod board state.

[L10]

Congrats! That's awesome. What does your list look like? I have honestly not played with Welder for over a year, even though it is my favorite Magic card. And yeah, I have faced a non-trivial amount of Grixis Control decks with Kolaghan’s Command and Dack Feyden in the main, and Null Rod in the side. That's a big problem for us.

I think I am going to try something like this:

//Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Mountain

//Welders (5)
3 Goblin Welder
2 Daretti, Scrap Savant

//Ramp (8)
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith

//Threats (14)
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Blightsteel Colossus

//Utility (11)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Crucible of Worlds

Phyrexian Revoker is good because DRS is the bane of Welder.

[hartigan]

I'm playing a VERY old build of Welder MUD:

4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Great Furnace

4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Opal
2 Mox Diamond
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Voltaic Key
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Staff of Domination

It played like a well oiled machine, I just drew my 7 cards, assessed wether or not the hand did anything, if it didn't I took a mulligan, if it did I would have my game plan.

A lot of hasty Blightsteels tutored up with Forgemaster, Metalworker + Staff, Lodestone // Wurmcoil beatdown, and for once I got to Slaver lock someone with Welder.

[L10]

Yeah, that list is very OG. I think Harold White plays the same list last Summer, and even back then, I thought it was pretty OG. lol. I don't like having 4 Welders and 2 Keys with 4 Chalice. I have done some distribution math and have determined that I can only get away with playing either two Keys or 3 Welders (with Cavern). This way, Chalice would only hurt me ~7% of the time, which is once every 15 rounds. I chose the Key path for a while now because Welder felt underwhelming in the past meta and I didn't feel like splashing red for 3 Welders. But I think the meta has shifted in that playing red makes sense, especially now with Daretti. I think playing a 3/2 split between Welder/Daretti should be good enough. Splashing red also gives us powerful tool in the SB, namely Blood Moon, Goblin Sharpshooter, and maybe Sudden Demise. The main contention for me is really Key+Ugin or Welder+Daretti.

How often did you get the chance to combo off with Staff of Domination?

[darkgh0st]

Out of all BFZ, the only ones I would try to jam into minimal slots are Conduit of Ruin and Void Winnower. Endless One is still a do nothing. Conduit as an additional tutor, and Void in the SB.

[L10]

What match ups would you want Void out from the side? It may be okay against OmniTell. He stops Dig Through Time, Eladamri's Call, Hurkyl's Recall, and Release the Ants. He doesn't stop Emrakul and Cunning Wish, which can still tutor for Wipe Away if needed. He is pretty good against ANT, but they have still use Chain of Vapor against it, and 9 mana is still pretty steep price if you want to jam it down early since Metalworker doesn't help the cost.

Conduit of Ruin can be interesting as a tutor. Do you have a list in mind?

[hartigan]

Yeah, that list is very OG. I think Harold White plays the same list last Summer, and even back then, I thought it was pretty OG. lol. I don't like having 4 Welders and 2 Keys with 4 Chalice. I have done some distribution math and have determined that I can only get away with playing either two Keys or 3 Welders (with Cavern). This way, Chalice would only hurt me ~7% of the time, which is once every 15 rounds. I chose the Key path for a while now because Welder felt underwhelming in the past meta and I didn't feel like splashing red for 3 Welders. But I think the meta has shifted in that playing red makes sense, especially now with Daretti. I think playing a 3/2 split between Welder/Daretti should be good enough. Splashing red also gives us powerful tool in the SB, namely Blood Moon, Goblin Sharpshooter, and maybe Sudden Demise. The main contention for me is really Key+Ugin or Welder+Daretti.

How often did you get the chance to combo off with Staff of Domination?

Yeah the Welder // Key + Chalice non-bo is kind of glaring sometimes, it didn't come up much during the tournament luckily.

I had a pretty even split of kills, some with Staff Combo, some with Blightsteel, some with 5/3 and 6/6 beatdown, also the one Mindslaver lock.

I really like Welder in the deck and I've only ever played MUD with Welder so I'd have a hard time moving away from it, I definitely do need to update the list though and I like all of your suggestions.

[darkgh0st]

From my usual list, -1 Wurmcoil (1 left), +1 Conduit of Ruin (upping tutor count to 5 with the 4 Forgemaster). He can tutor for Myr Battlesphere, Platinum Emperion, Sundering Titan, and Blightsteel in my list. Plus the eventual Void Winnower in the SB if needed.

Void Winnower will replace Orbs of Warding (flex slot in SB) in my list. Eldrazi Void will be used against decks that don't use Wasteland when useful. It stops Terminus, Jace, Snapcaster. The other Void in our deck will stop StP. Eldrazi Void also stops late Goyfs, Punishing Fire, Price of Progress, Smash to Smithereens, Cataclysm, Thalia chump blocks, Pyromancer, token chump blocks, Sneak Attack (not seen often), and definitely Tendrils/EtW. It looks good on paper, but will need testing.

[L10]

From my usual list, -1 Wurmcoil (1 left), +1 Conduit of Ruin (upping tutor count to 5 with the 4 Forgemaster). He can tutor for Myr Battlesphere, Platinum Emperion, Sundering Titan, and Blightsteel in my list. Plus the eventual Void Winnower in the SB if needed.

Void Winnower will replace Orbs of Warding (flex slot in SB) in my list. Eldrazi Void will be used against decks that don't use Wasteland when useful. It stops Terminus, Jace, Snapcaster. The other Void in our deck will stop StP. Eldrazi Void also stops late Goyfs, Punishing Fire, Price of Progress, Smash to Smithereens, Cataclysm, Thalia chump blocks, Pyromancer, token chump blocks, Sneak Attack (not seen often), and definitely Tendrils/EtW. It looks good on paper, but will need testing.
I think Wurmcoil Engine should at minimum be a 2-of. It seems risky. If anything, I'd consider removing Spine of Ish Sah. That's the one silver bullet I use the least. To be honest, I REALLY like Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. BUT, the idea of actually casting Ulamog, who cost 10+ mana, is frankly daunting. If he cost 8 mana, I think he could have been a strong contender in Ugin's spot. Maybe even a 1/1 split between the two. As it stands, I think Ugin is superior, just because of the CMC. I think Void Winnower has a spot in our sister deck, Turbo Eldrazi, but I am skeptical of him in our deck, mainly due to casting cost. Let us know though.


I really like Welder in the deck and I've only ever played MUD with Welder so I'd have a hard time moving away from it, I definitely do need to update the list though and I like all of your suggestions.
Sometimes, knowing how to play your deck pays dividends. I have not updated my Goblins deck since 2012, but it stills kicks butt from time to time just because I know how to play the deck as is. However, I think some of the card options are questionable nowadays. Here are some of my comments regarding your deck.

4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Great Furnace

4 Goblin Welder
/*I think 3 is a safer number. Add 2 Daretti as pseudo-Welders.
But Daretti's loot is very good because it gives the deck more consistency*/
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Opal // I don't like the Moxen in this deck anymore. Opal's acceleration is not noticeable due to Metalcraft
2 Mox Diamond // Diamond's acceleration requires tossing a land, which may create inconsistent lands drops.
// Not playing Mox Diamond also allows us to remove the reliance on Crucible of Worlds post-board
// Instead of either Moxen, I think I'd rather have basic Mountains.
2 Lightning Greaves // With Welder, Metalworker, and Forgemaster in this deck, I think 3 is a safe number
// Getting to tap either of those creatures one turn earlier can mean a world of a difference.
2 Voltaic Key // I love Voltaic Key, just not with Chalice AND Welder. I'd pick one of the other.
1 Spine of Ish Sah // Honestly, I don't like this card in the MD. So many times in the past, I drew it,
// and I wished it was literally anything else. A 7-mana Vindicate is not trivial, especially if we are not playing 12-Post
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Staff of Domination

Like I said, if I were to pilot Welder, I'd probably do something like this:

//Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Mountain
/*
4 Great Furnace + 2 Mountains gives us a 90% chance to have a red source by the time we draw Daretti (2 Copies)
6 Red Source + 4 Cavern of Souls gives us a 90% chance to have a red source by the time we draw Welder (3 Copies)
This gives us an overall 80% chance of having a red source by the time we draw either Daretti OR Welder (5 Total Copies)
*/

//Welders (5)
3 Goblin Welder
2 Daretti, Scrap Savant

//Ramp (8)
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith

//Threats (14)
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite // Steel Hellkite, especially with 3 Lightning Greaves, is incredibly scary. Wipes the board clean.
1 Myr Battlesphere // Kills planes walker and makes Lili easier to deal with
1 Blightsteel Colossus

//Utility (11)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Phyrexian Revoker // There are only a few match-ups where I don't like Revoker. I usually have 3-4 in my SB.
// He deserves a spot in the MD because Deathrite Shaman can literally wreck our strategy to cheat in fatties.
// This also frees up space for the SB!
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard Options (20, remove 5 depending on meta)
1 Orbs of Warding // Good against the Grixis decks and Burn
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Nin // For the really grindy match-ups
**2 Bloodmoon // Good against Lands, and any deck with a really greedy mana base.
**2 Goblin Sharpshooter // Laughs at DnT, as they normally, correctly, side out Mom.
// Also good against all the x/1's that dominating the format.
2 Sundering Titan
3 Ratchet Bomb // Catch-all removal
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Trinsisphere
**If I were to side in Blood Moon or Goblin Sharpshooter, I would straight up trade them with Daretti is preserve proper ratios for the red-spash. Fortunately, a CoS on Goblins can cast both Welder and Sharpshooter.

This is where I currently stand as far as Welder strategy goes. Of course, this is all theory crafting. I haven't played Welder for over a year, but I think my logic is sound on my design choices. By the way, if you want to play with Key and Ugin, try this list out:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/15-08-15-zjl-metalworker/
I also play with two Thran Dynamos. :)

Unfortunately, I won't be able to play with the Welder list in the next three weeks. I have two century bike rides coming up, followed by a wedding to attend, and work has been pretty busy. Let me know if you have any suggestions!

[Steak]

Hey guys, been lurking the forums for a while. Just signed up to post. I've been playing a pretty standard metalworker MUD list for about a year now. I've got a couple questions.

I really like playing with goofy one-of's and am going to give Phyrexian Portal a try. I've seen some people comment on it here and there but haven't seen anyone actually try it out. Has anyone?

Second, when/why would you board in All is Dust? Ugin has a very similar effect and lasting presence for one more mana.

[kingtk3]

Hey guys, been lurking the forums for a while. Just signed up to post. I've been playing a pretty standard metalworker MUD list for about a year now. I've got a couple questions.

I really like playing with goofy one-of's and am going to give Phyrexian Portal a try. I've seen some people comment on it here and there but haven't seen anyone actually try it out. Has anyone?

Second, when/why would you board in All is Dust? Ugin has a very similar effect and lasting presence for one more mana.

Welcome!

I personal never tried Phyrexian Portal because I don't think that this deck can survive 2 turns without doing nothing: first you cast the portal, then the following turn you tutor a card and lastly the third turn you play it... I think is too slow. For 6 mana I prefer Staff of Nin because it pings immediately and doesn't require to invest any more resources while the card advantage kicks in.

All is dust is for the mid range matchups: there are decks that chalice and trini don't hurt much and can build a board while having some artifact removal. In this cases we have time to cast all is dust which should be almost game.
Ugin is indeed stronger but can be preemptively stopped by pithing needle or revoker. I personal like playing Ugin maindeck and some number (usually 2) of karn liberated in the side, along with a copy of all is dust: they all are useful in determined contests (karn for example is an out to null rod or other colorless permanents).

Hope this can help you.

[MGB]

So guys, how important is Grim Monolith in this deck, exactly? I've been thinking lately about just playing 4 Phyrexian Revokers or 4 Ratchet Bombs MD instead of the 4 Monoliths, because those cards "do something" other than just mana ramp a little bit, and aren't dead draws later in the game. Is this a bad idea? Is Monolith secretly really important in this deck?

[darkgh0st]

Grim Monolith is the difference between being able to cast a 6+ cc spell even when your manabase is hampered and not being able to cast that probably crucial spell. So... Yes, it is secretly important. Try siding them out during games one at a time and see if the difference matters to you. :)

[Runninonwater]

Hello guys and gals!


Im so close to finish my MUD deck but yet so far since i don't really have the funds atm.
This is the list i've been thinking of playing.

Artifact (16)

4x Chalice of the Void

1x Coercive Portal
4x Grim Monolith
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Staff of Nin
3x Trinisphere

Planeswalker (3)

1x Karn Liberated
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Creature (18)

1x Blightsteel Colossus
3x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
1x Steel Hellkite
2x Sundering Titan
3x Wurmcoil Engine

Land (23)

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
3x Vesuva

Sideboard (14)

1x Duplicant
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Platinum Emperion
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Staff of Nin
3x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Trading Post
1x Trinisphere
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Got the list from a streamer and it just so happens that i had about 40% of the cards so i've been collecting slowly for a year or so, now im just missing 3 City of Traitors to complete it.

Some cards has been jumping up and down in prices and it didn't mix well with my economy but im almost there.

WHat do you guys think of this list? I would really appreciate your feedback.

EDIT: Seems like im missing one card in the sideboard...

[sun tzu]

Hello guys and gals!


Im so close to finish my MUD deck but yet so far since i don't really have the funds atm.
This is the list i've been thinking of playing.

Artifact (16)

4x Chalice of the Void

1x Coercive Portal
4x Grim Monolith
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Staff of Nin
3x Trinisphere

Planeswalker (3)

1x Karn Liberated
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Creature (18)

1x Blightsteel Colossus
3x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
1x Steel Hellkite
2x Sundering Titan
3x Wurmcoil Engine

Land (23)

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
3x Vesuva

Sideboard (14)

1x Duplicant
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Platinum Emperion
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Staff of Nin
3x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Trading Post
1x Trinisphere
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Got the list from a streamer and it just so happens that i had about 40% of the cards so i've been collecting slowly for a year or so, now im just missing 3 City of Traitors to complete it.

Some cards has been jumping up and down in prices and it didn't mix well with my economy but im almost there.

WHat do you guys think of this list? I would really appreciate your feedback.

EDIT: Seems like im missing one card in the sideboard...I feel like you will want at least 1 more land. A wasteland or 2 is brutal vs us :C

[Stuart]

Hello guys and gals!


Im so close to finish my MUD deck but yet so far since i don't really have the funds atm.
This is the list i've been thinking of playing.

Artifact (16)

4x Chalice of the Void

1x Coercive Portal
4x Grim Monolith
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Staff of Nin
3x Trinisphere

Planeswalker (3)

1x Karn Liberated
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Creature (18)

1x Blightsteel Colossus
3x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
1x Steel Hellkite
2x Sundering Titan
3x Wurmcoil Engine

Land (23)

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
3x Vesuva

Sideboard (14)

1x Duplicant
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Platinum Emperion
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Staff of Nin
3x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Trading Post
1x Trinisphere
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Got the list from a streamer and it just so happens that i had about 40% of the cards so i've been collecting slowly for a year or so, now im just missing 3 City of Traitors to complete it.

Some cards has been jumping up and down in prices and it didn't mix well with my economy but im almost there.

WHat do you guys think of this list? I would really appreciate your feedback.

EDIT: Seems like im missing one card in the sideboard...

List looks solid to me. Quick thoughts:
- I'd personally drop the Karn in favor of another Greaves, Wurm, or Forgemaster. 2 Ugin is so devastating that I don't think Karn is necessary.
- If you don't have your Cities yet it's not a disaster. I personally hate City; I find it incredibly awkward to play around. I've been running 4 Wasts, 4 Tomb, 12 Post, 3 Cavern, and 1 City. So far it's been awesome. That said, I'm probably in the minority there...
- I'd recommend 1 or 2 Crucible Of Worlds in the board. It's good with Lands being prominent, and a Waste-lock can wreck Delver.
- I don't like Trading Post, but your mileage may vary. Likewise, I think you could drop 1 or 2 Thorns and be fine.

Anyway, good luck with MUD! I'm pretty new to it, but I'm loving it so far. Keep us posted on how it goes for you.

[ZEROorDIE]

@sun tzu

For the main board I would -1 spine of ish sha, -1 karn liberated, -1 cavern of souls.

+1 kuldotha forgemaster, +2 wasteland

Put karn and spine in the side, third ugin isn't necessary, but I just bought another to start testing with so... If you want to play trading post, play it in the coercive portal slot, but I don't think you'll want a portal, a trading post and two staff of nin, too redundant. Definitely get a crucible of worlds for the side and maybe a couple tormods crypt or grafdiggers cage.

Otherwise it's a fine list. Have fun playing huge robots.

As for monlith, I would never go below four. Turn one trinishpere is the magic equivalent of your opponent tripping over his own shoelaces. Turn one metalworker can be loads of fun. I also play four city of traitors and give zero fucks about force of will. Can't always live in fear.


I'll be bouncing around between some dragon stompy and stax builds for the next few weeks, but I'll likely be back on mud before the next big tourney rolls around.

[L10]

Armageddon Stax or MUD Stax? Try a couple Hangarback Walkers. It is surprisingly decent. In my MUD Stax build anyways, I only have 4 Lodestone Golem, 2 Hangarback Walkers, 4 Mishra's Factory, and 4 Mutavaults as my win conditions.

[(nameless one)]

Armageddon Stax or MUD Stax? Try a couple Hangarback Walkers. It is surprisingly decent. In my MUD Stax build anyways, I only have 4 Lodestone Golem, 2 Hangarback Walkers, 4 Mishra's Factory, and 4 Mutavaults as my win conditions.

Are you also running Sphere of Resistance in your list?

I haven't contributed in the thread for a while now and missed a lot of things. A lot of people at work are going back in playing the game and I do want to dust up the deck. I know that the norm now is the 12post into threats lists but I had this radical idea of going back to the original Stompy manabase. The idea is still use the Stompy Mana Base but Artifact Mana as another means of acceleration. I know it sounds primitive but the reason to do this is to add an additional disruption package in the form of Winter Orb.

The problem I face is with the current meta, I don't really know which are the good and bad matchups with the current 12post into threats into Ugin lists.

How does the list perform with the current DtB and what are the go to cards and dead cards in each. Can anyone fill me in on this?

[L10]

I can try to fill you in tomorrow. If you are interested in decks without 12-Post, I have a list posted above with Voltaic Key and Thran Dynamo, that plays like a hybrid of Stompy and Forgemaster MUD, if that interests you. For the most part, I'd say 99% of MUD players now are playing the 12-Post version, which is still a fine option. I am just not a fan. It is really a matter of play style preference IMO.


Are you also running Sphere of Resistance in your list?

The idea is still use the Stompy Mana Base but Artifact Mana as another means of acceleration. I know it sounds primitive but the reason to do this is to add an additional disruption package in the form of Winter Orb.

Oh buddy, do I have a deck for you!

Mana (31)
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mutavault
4 Mox Diamond
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Ghost Town
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter

Threats (6)
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Hangarback Walkers

Hate (23)
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
2 Winter Orb
2 The Abyss

Sideboard
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Zuran Orb
2 Razormane Masticore
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thorn of Amethyst

The problem with this deck is like any other Stax deck, being an inconsistent trash. You can win locals, but I wouldn't bring it in big tourneys. Ghost Town in particular has an insane synergy with Winter Orb and Razormane Masticore from the SB. I'd like to make room for another Crucible of Worlds too. I am no Stax expert though, so this list may be complete trash. I just play it for "fun" from time to time.

Edit 1: Ghost Town also synergies well with Mox Diamond with Crucible in play. I am considering to bump the Ghost Town and Crucible of Worlds counts to 4.
Edit 2: Done.

[(nameless one)]

List

If you want to compare, here is the last list that I was working with before I disappeared:




4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Mishra's Factory
3 City of Traitors
3 Vesuva
3 Wasteland

4 Mox Diamond
3 Grim Monolith

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Spellskite
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Duplicant
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Wurmcoil Engine

The issue I had with the list was trying to catch up if the opponent gets a head start. Turn 1 Delvers are almost auto losses. While this list is running 12post, I am not running Winter Orb. The thing though is even with Winter Orb, the deck could theoretically function because you can get your Cloudposts to produce 2-3+ mana. Tangle Wire with Winter Orb can be so back breaking, along with Sphere. It can be a hard lock for the opponent if you can resolve Chalice at 1.

With my list above, I'll probably remove a lot of the other threats such as Forgemaster + Package. The only reason why they're there is to play catch up with tempo decks (which doesn't always work).

I might even stick with the 12post land with Winter Orb (and Tangle Wire). Hangarback Walker seems like it can help the deck. If you draw it in the early game, you can actually play the tempo game by having it early then protecting it with resistors. Alternatively, you can have it after resistors as a (huge) finisher, given that you've established your mana base. I might even add Smokestack to that list as a means to close out the game.

I like your list as well but I am not keen on the Abyss. It requires colored mana (so it's dependent to Urborg/Mox) and I am unsure on spending $200 for something I can't vouch for.

I hope this deck gets better in the future as I love MUD (Stax) but don't have the disposable income to play Vintage.

[L10]

Oh, I remember that list. It really has been a while. I'd say the format has gotten a lot faster since you last played. Miracles now have Monastery Mentor, so they no longer have to go to time. Grixis Delver is now the premier Delver deck, and is way more aggressive than the previous iterations. OmniTell can find their combo way quicker now too, all thanks to Dig Through Time. I'd say that Treasure Cruise, followed by Dig Through Time has definitely warped the meta quite a bit. In a direction I don't actually like. That's part of the reason why Stax strategies in general doesn't bode well in Legacy now, nor in the past to be honest. We really don't have the fast, consistent mana to bring out our lock pieces before the opponent can do anything. Vintage has Shops, Moxen, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, and Tolarian Academy, which brings the Stax strategy up to Tier 1. Even Vintage Stax suffers from variance. We suffer both from variance and inconsistent mana.


I like your list as well but I am not keen on the Abyss. It requires colored mana (so it's dependent to Urborg/Mox) and I am unsure on spending $200 for something I can't vouch for.
No. It's not worth $200. I am lucky enough to have been playing the game since I was 10, so around 17 years, so I have accrued quite a collection without the ridiculous price tags. While The Abyss is an amazing card, especially in MUD, it is not worth $200, especially because it does require mana fixing AND that it doesn't make the deck any better than Tier 3 or 4. I'd play it only if your group allows proxies or if you already own them. Save your money.


I hope this deck gets better in the future as I love MUD (Stax) but don't have the disposable income to play Vintage.
All Vintage tournies plays with at least 10-proxy (many even all proxy) except for the DCI sanctioned tournaments. You probably own all the cards you need minus Power and Mana Vault, which you can proxy. I don't see why you can't play. The problem is finding a playgroup.

IMO, Stax as a strategy is not good in Legacy. It's fun. It's just not good. If I were to play in an Open, I'd play with a much quicker Forgemaster build, like these:
Foremaster Stompy (tested): http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/15-08-15-zjl-metalworker/
Welder MUD (untested): http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/23-09-15-welder-mud/

If I were to go with a 12-post list, I personally like this version:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/legacychamp15/top-32-decklists-2015-08-22#james_wohlmachers_metalworker_-_legacy_championship_rd_place
I have spoken with James several times and liked all his design decisions. We both concluded that Hangerback Walker is by far the weakest card in the 75 though. He used it against BUG for Lili, but it didn't really do much.

If you really want to play Stax, this list keeps placing well in MODO that may be within your budget:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87526
I would include a few copies of Ghost Town if you were to play Winter Orb in this list. The card is really good in Smokestack lists, and it makes drawing Mox Diamond in the late game tolerable, and goes well with Razormane Masticore. Razormane Masticore in particular is great in the Grixis match-up at the moment.

As far as Vintage goes, Hiromichi Ito made top 32 with his Smokestack list:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/vintagechamp15/top-32-decklists-2015-08-23#hiromichi_itos_stax_-_vintage_championship_th_place

PM me if you need anything, bud.

[L10]

Also, I don't think your list is bad at all. I'd say:
-1 Mox Diamond (25 lands can't really support 4 Moxen IMO)
-3 Grim Monolith (you really are not trying to ramp into a quick threat anyways)
+4 Metalworker (dump your hand)

If you want to include Winter Orb, you can do something like:
-3 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Winter Orb
+1 Crucible of Worlds

But if you are going with the Winter Orb route, I'd further change your mana base:
-X City of Traitors
-1 Vesuva
+1 Wasteland
+X Ghost Town

I think that's all the change you need to make to be honest. It is a nice unique mix between Forgemaster MUD and Stax-less Stax. I think Forgemaster actually helps you to find the right solution to the problem you may be facing. I think Wurmcoil Engine is probably the weakest tutor target though. You may want Platinum Emperion instead.

[darkgh0st]

Hi (nameless one), nice to hear from you again. Last time I played your page 68 list, I got to top 8 with it. At that time, the harsh match ups with your list were Elves (which still is in any MUD list), Combo lands (list not having solutions) and burn. I was winning with a very high percentage against BUG, and RUG. Aside from what L10 mentioned (Miracles and Omni-Tell being faster and Tier 1), RUG is pushed out of DtB, and DnT is in and out of DtB. Grixis is the top Delver deck, which I think your page 68 list can handle. Sneak and Show is almost non existent due to Omni-Tell just being the better version of it. I have not played that list for a while but I always think of it.

[L10]

Yeah, I think his list is pretty decent in the current meta to be honest. Whenever I think of Stax, I think of the actual card Smokestack, which is bad in the current meta, IMO, due to inconsistencies. The fact that Mentor and Pyromancer can generate tokens means the trade is not always in our favor, which is why I play The Abyss and Tabernacle in my list. But overloading on resistors like what the (nameless one) has is pretty good.

Honesty, I'd just replace one Mox Diamond and the three Grim Monolith for a full set of Metalworker, as well as trading one Wurmcoil Engine for Platinum Emperion and call it a day. Platinum Emperion actually solves the issue of when Delver gets under our radar and helps against the Burn match up quite a bit.

[Runninonwater]

List looks solid to me. Quick thoughts:
- I'd personally drop the Karn in favor of another Greaves, Wurm, or Forgemaster. 2 Ugin is so devastating that I don't think Karn is necessary.
- If you don't have your Cities yet it's not a disaster. I personally hate City; I find it incredibly awkward to play around. I've been running 4 Wasts, 4 Tomb, 12 Post, 3 Cavern, and 1 City. So far it's been awesome. That said, I'm probably in the minority there...
- I'd recommend 1 or 2 Crucible Of Worlds in the board. It's good with Lands being prominent, and a Waste-lock can wreck Delver.
- I don't like Trading Post, but your mileage may vary. Likewise, I think you could drop 1 or 2 Thorns and be fine.

Anyway, good luck with MUD! I'm pretty new to it, but I'm loving it so far. Keep us posted on how it goes for you.

Thanks for your input.

I think the streamer said the 1 Karn in the mainboard was supposed to be a 3rd Ugin lol. But i can cut it for a Lighting Greaves, i love the card.
Problem is i only have 2 Wastelands at the moment so that's awkward, and i think im missing 1 vesuva now that im thinking about it if im gonna run the full set of 12 posts lands. Maybe i can have like 2 Wastelands and 2 Darksteel Citadel / Mishra's Factory ? I think 4 Vesuvas is too many lands that enters tapped.
I can put a Crucible in the sideboard, can help against wasteland decks.

I've been playing colorless for years now but i haven't been able to play MUD yet because of budget reasons.

[L10]

How many of each lands do you own?
Ancient Tomb
City of Traitors
Cloudpost
Glimmerpost
Vesuva
Wasteland
Cavern of Souls
Darksteel Citadel
Mishra's Factory

[Stuart]

Went to Pat's Games for weekly legacy last night. List was basically the same, but with slight sideboard tweaks:

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone
4 Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil
1 Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel
2 Ugin

4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
2 Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine of Ish Sah

4 Wasteland
4 Tomb
1 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva

1 Platinum Angel
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Contagion Engine
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Crucible
3 Tsabo's Web

Round I: Burn 0-2
- Game 1: I mull to 4, don't hit a Chalice or Trinisphere, and can't catch up.
- Game 2: Things go OK, but then Price domes me for 10 and I die.

Round 2: RUG 1-2
- Game 1: For some inexplicable reason I keep an opening hand with 3 Caverns as my manabase. He gets 2 Delvers and flips them, and that's that.
- Game 2: Grindy, Wastelandy match. Lodestone and Delver end up racing, and I win the race.
- Game 3: 2 Ancient Tomb vs 2 Mongoose does me in.

Round 3: Burn 2-1
- Game 1: Turn 1 Chalice on 1 shuts off his entire hand, so he scoops.
- Game 2: He plays through my Trinisphere. Smash to Smithereens and Price do the work.
- Game 3: Chalice on 1 and 2 slows things up. However, I don't draw threats for a while and he gets down 2 Sulfuric Vortex. Eventually a Lodestone shows up and wins.

Round 4: Maverick 1-2
- Game 1: It's a race between Lodestone and a KotR . . . which is a 10/10. He wins that race.
- Game 2: He's got a Thalia, Reclamation Sage, and 2 Deathrites. Contagion Engine clears them out, followed by a Sundering Titan to nuke his lands and an Ugin for the scoop.
- Game 3: Things are going fine, then he played Gaddock Teeg. I am the biggest moron in Magic and think that Teeg shuts off all cards CMC 4+, so I don't play the Lodestone, Forgemaster, and Platinum in my hand and let him kill me with Teeg and Thalia.

Sooooo not a great night, but I guess it's good to experience the rougher side of playing MUD :laugh:. Maybe up till now I've just been lucky with drawing the right lands + Chalice/Trinisphere, or maybe tonight I was just abnormally unlucky. That Teeg misplay, though . . . :eek:

[Runninonwater]

How many of each lands do you own?
Ancient Tomb
City of Traitors
Cloudpost
Glimmerpost
Vesuva
Wasteland
Cavern of Souls
Darksteel Citadel
Mishra's Factory

Sucks that i have those cards back home but i think its like this:
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2-3 Vesuva
2 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
2-4 Darksteel Citadel
1 Mishra's Factory

[darkgh0st]

@Stuart: Game 1 vs burn, you don't have to depend on Chalice/Trinisphere. A fast combo hand wins it unless they double bolt your Forgemaster before you can use it, and that's rare and in your favor.

About Gaddock Teeg, I made the same mistake before. :laugh:

Good luck on your next runs.

[Runninonwater]

@Stuart: Game 1 vs burn, you don't have to depend on Chalice/Trinisphere. A fast combo hand wins it unless they double bolt your Forgemaster before you can use it, and that's rare and in your favor.

About Gaddock Teeg, I made the same mistake before. :laugh:

Good luck on your next runs.

During the time i started assembling MUD i faced off against a Goblin deck that ran 4 Cavern of Souls and my Chalices didn't do much against him. Do you board out the chalices? I mean they will sometime have to open a turn 1 with Vial or Lackey.

[(nameless one)]

During the time i started assembling MUD i faced off against a Goblin deck that ran 4 Cavern of Souls and my Chalices didn't do much against him. Do you board out the chalices? I mean they will sometime have to open a turn 1 with Vial or Lackey.

From my past experiences against Goblins, you board out Chalice+Sphere for more threats. Ratchet Bomb doesnt really help as their casting costs varies. Quick Wurmcoil is the way to go.

@L10:

The thing I don't like about Metalworker is it's not fast enough. I want to consistently hit that turn 1 Chalice at one or Sphere. While I already have the Sol lands, Mox Diamond also help when you don't draw them. I would rather just mulligan for Chalice/Sphere than mulligan for Chalice/Sphere AND Sol land.

As for Wurmcoil, my reason behind it is its easier to cast and your opponent can't profitably remove it as it will leave behind something. That said, StP and Terminus doesn't apply so I might switch it to Emperion.