[Deck] MUD (Metalworker) [Archive] - Page 2

SirTylerGalt

08-13-2012, 09:53 AM

Mouth of Ronom is indeed a great tech against Gaddock Teeg. But it does not produce red mana, and I think I'd rather have Rishadan Port, Cavern of Souls, or Buried Ruin if I'm going to play an utility land. Those cards are better against control, so this might depend on the meta. It might also be good with crucible... Worth testing out.

Glacial Crevasses and Sunstone could be awesome SB answers against creature decks! Sunstone indeed synergizes better with metalcraft / lodestone golem. But I think Glacial Crevasse is better. People will bring a lot of artifact hate out of the SB against MUD, and we don't want our Sunstone to be caught in the crossfire of Ancient Grudge / Null Rod... Glacial Crevasses, being an enchantment, will be harder to answer. And the colored cost is not a problem, since you need to have a snow-covered mountain in play anyway to activate it.

Scrying Sheets is a great card advantage engine for mono-colored decks (such as The Mighty Queen). But I fear it won't be that good in MUD, since we need to play 7-8 sol lands. With 4 Ancient Tomb, 4 City of Traitors, and 4 Scrying Sheets, we are left with 10 snow-covered lands. The Mighty Queen plays 18 snow-covered plains! It can be improved with Sensei's Divining Top, but...

... If I'm going to play 3-4 tops, I'd rather combine it with voltaic key. Key + Top means you draw 1 additional card each turn for two mana (1 mana to activate key, 1 mana to replay top). With two keys, you get +2 cards each turn. You can even order the triggers to draw 2 cards and keep Sensei's Top on top of your library in an emergency (tap top, untap it with key, pay 1 mana to reorder cards with top, tap top again --> you draw a card, put top back on top, reorder the top 3 cards, then draw again).

This is even more insane with Prototype Portal. You can imprint Top on the portal, and draw one additional card each turn (more with voltaic key in play). Or you can imprint Key on the portal, make a dozen keys, make a ton of mana, and use the top + key trick to draw 10 cards :)

I think 4 keys and 3 tops might be worth it. Key synergizes with Sensei's Divining Top, mana acceleration, Prototype Portal, and lets you do nice combat tricks such as untapping a blocker, untaping a lodestone golem for Godo's second attack phase, or untaping a Mishra's Factory to boost itself. Top helps with your topdecks, and helps setup Bonfire of the vanities. The only problem is Chalice @ 1 (which is mitigated by Prototype Portal, but still stops you from replaying Top in the Top+Key combo).

Phyrexian metamorph is a great answer for Gaddock Teeg, and comboes well with Prototype Portal. It's great against Jitte, various fatties, and Reanimator. It can also save you against sneak attack: opponent plays show and tell, puts Sneak Attack in play. You put Prototype Portal, imprint it with Phyrexian Metamorph... And legend slay his hasted Griselbrand / Emrakul :)

bruizar

08-15-2012, 02:55 PM

http://www.twitch.tv/southfloridamagic/b/328651213

1:40 is a fitting example of why Kuldotha Forgemaster is not a good card for this deck. No offense to the player, but please watch it for educational purposes, so we can all learn from this. My goal is to get an artifact deck into the top tier of Legacy, and anything that helps us get closer to achieving that is worth watching.

Here are the play errors that caused him to lose pretty badly.
1) Sack Crucible of Worlds instead of Mishra's Factory for Forgemaster when he has mana to activate his land, and then replay it next turn with Crucible
2) Grab Blightsteel Colossus instead of Sundering Titan. S. Titan would have still caught a Path to Exile, but at least he would leave the game state with Crucible + Mishra's Factory + Wasteland and get an extra mountain himself, with no basics for the Zoo player. 1/1 Nacatl isn't going to kill you.

He would eventually still die, because the Qasali Pridemage would shoot the Crucible and the Nacatl would trade with the Factory/any bolt.

Now, I don't have his decklist, but I can imagine his options were either:
Wurmcoil Engine
Sundering Titan
Spine of Ish-Sah
Blightsteel Colossus
Steel Hellkite
and an off chance on a Myr Battlesphere

Wurmcoil Engine and Steel Hellkite would have eaten a PTE the same way Blightsteel Colossus did.

Spine of Ish-Sah could have taken out 1 permanent, if that would happen, the Forgemaster would catch the PTE and he would still have 3 for 1'd himself with no way to get rid of his Spine.

I already discussed sundering titan

Myr Battlesphere would have been an interesting play, because it would force him to choose between using his PTE on Kuldotha Forgemaster and to Myr Battlesphere. If the PTE targeted Kuldotha Forgemaster, the Myr Battlesphere could race the Zoo player. If the Zoo player targeted the Myr Battlesphere, the MUD player could activate his Kuldotha Forgemaster again, but this time against 1 Path to Exile less.

In hindsight, depending on his list, he would have had to play Myr Battlesphere to win this game with the Kuldotha Forgemaster setup. This means it requires the dedication of yet another silverbullet-slot. The Sundering Titan might have also saved his ass, but we don't really know.

Take this into consideration:

Moltensteel Dragon would have been much better than Forgemaster-into-Blightsteel Colossus. It would have not been an all-in-play. Channeling life would have been very dangerous here, but you don't have to do that per se. He could still one-shot with Moltensteel Dragon if the Zoo player was tapped out / no red source.

Kuldotha Forgemaster should have been a Batterskull/Godo mix. Wurmcoil would have been exiled JUST as easily as Blightsteel Colossus. Atleast, he would still have his crucible/waste recursion and his mox diamond to help him bounce the Batterskull and replay it again. This might not even have been enough in this situation though.You need to play cards that can survive an STP/PTE. If you don't have a way to beat STP or Jace, you are gonna have troubles making it to the top tables with MUD. My STP/Jace plan is chalice for 1, Batterskull or Godo, Bruizar Warlord. :D While you're at it, Cavern of Souls fights these type of decks' stack manipulation (StP and Jace frequently ride together (stoneblade/miracles).

Other Topic:
I would like to know if anyone has tried the 12-post engine in MUD/Stax yet. The manabase actually gains life, instead of sink life like Ancient Tomb do. I'm thinking Eye of Ugin and 2 eldrazi (Emrakul+Kozilek or Ulamog). Ulamog would be able to blow up your own Ensnaring Bridge, which is an interesting interaction. Play Emrakul, Take an extra turn, Play Ulamog blow up Ensnaring Bridge, attack with Emrakul. I won't run it but I just wanted to mention the super sweet interaction between It That Betrays and Smokestack :D

Perhaps 12post/turboeldrazi is simply better, but I still wonder if there is a possibility to run the land engine in mud/stax. Atleast, in Stax/MUD you don't HAVE to splash an extra color so the manabase should be a bit better.

I am also curious what other lands to play next to the 12post engine of:
4 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Eye of Ugin?

4 Rishadan Port / 4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb/ 4 City of Traitors

x Buried Ruins? (Sounds like a really good plan when crucibles are this important and you can have access to a lot of mana.)
1 Dustbowl? (Plenty of mana, perhaps with Expedition Map? worst or better than Wasteland?)

Other lands I missed?

Please discuss!

p.s. @ tyler:
I agree on most of the things you said. I still need to put some more testing into Phyrexian Metamorph and Prototype Portal. Especially the fact that you're not dead entirely screwed when reanimator/sneakshow/SNT-griselbrand (omniscience) or Gaddock Teeg go off is attractive. Also, right now, I play between 3 and 4 Grafdigger's Cage sideboard to combat GSZ into Gaddock Teeg (and dauntless escort) against Maverick. It also offers great splash damage to reanimator, past in flames and dredge and can be played before the zenith goes off.

(nameless one)

08-15-2012, 05:32 PM

Unfortunately I cannot watch the replay since I'm on my iPhone but based on what you said, I would have went for Sundering Titan or Myr Battlesphere. Sundering Titan would have hampered his mana base (and shrunk the Nacatl) while leaving your mana base. Like what you said, a 1/1 Nacatl wouldn't kill you right away. The Battlesphere would have left blockers and fuel for another Forgemaster activation.

Honestly, I wouldn't have activated Forgemaster. I would have waited until he tried to PtE it. While I understand he eventually had Pridemage, I would still just play the waiting game and respond with the Forgemaster. I think Forgemaster timing is one of the things that's setting people back with the Forgemaster build.

Forgemaster is a fine blocker and can survive an attack from a 3/3. If he attacked with a 3/3 (or 4/4 if he has the Pridemage) and blocked with it, there's a chance he'll PtE Forgemaster in response. Then respond with the activation (maybe grab Wurmcoil) do when he activates Pridemage, you'd still have the wurm tokens.

If he Pridemages your Forgemaster, activate it grabbing Titan or Battlesphere. At least this way, you'd either still have blockers or leveled his mana base. (if he does Path what you grab).

Rules question: if your opponent Paths your Sundering Titan, does the land you grab get blown up with Titan (given that you have to choose it)?

PS: I would advocate to no rely on Forgemaster but I still think its good to run it because it can create unanswerable scenarios.

Heresy

08-15-2012, 05:56 PM

May I suggest Duplicant against SneakShow, a one-of maindeck for the surprise factor g1 might win games by itself.

Koby

08-15-2012, 06:24 PM

Rules question: if your opponent Paths your Sundering Titan, does the land you grab get blown up with Titan (given that you have to choose it)?

You would fetch the land, then trigger Titan once PtE completed its resolution.

SirTylerGalt

08-15-2012, 08:06 PM

@bruizar:

I agree with you regarding Kuldotha. While the Kuldotha build can be very explosive, it lacks resiliency. I'd rather play the German MUD stompy version (with which Zirath top8'ed a few times), or your Godo stompy build.

Interesting thoughts on the 12-post engine. Worth testing. Plus, Eye of Ugin can also tutors for other artifact creatures :)

I've thought about a creature that could potentially fit with your Godo build: Taurean Mauler. It's played in some Dragon Stompy builds. It's a changeling, so it's untaped by Godo for the second attack phase. You can play it with Cavern of Souls set to "Human" (for Godo) or "Golem" or whatever. It's also pretty good against Merfolk, due to the nice +1/+1 and Islandwalk from Lord of Atlantis (doesn't work with the new lord though).

(nameless one)

08-15-2012, 08:28 PM

May I suggest Duplicant against SneakShow, a one-of maindeck for the surprise factor g1 might win games by itself.

I think Phyrexian Metamorph covers that matchup. While Duplicant is a great removal spell, it doesn't solve the Show and Tell dilemma (just like Metamorph). Metamorph also has applications that Duplicant cannot fulfil and can sometimes be dead in your hand.

You would fetch the land, then trigger Titan once PtE completed its resolution.

Thank you for answering.

@bruizar:

I agree with you regarding Kuldotha. While the Kuldotha build can be very explosive, it lacks resiliency. I'd rather play the German MUD stompy version (with which Zirath top8'ed a few times), or your Godo stompy build.

Interesting thoughts on the 12-post engine. Worth testing. Plus, Eye of Ugin can also tutors for other artifact creatures :)

I've thought about a creature that could potentially fit with your Godo build: Taurean Mauler. It's played in some Dragon Stompy builds. It's a changeling, so it's untaped by Godo for the second attack phase. You can play it with Cavern of Souls set to "Human" (for Godo) or "Golem" or whatever. It's also pretty good against Merfolk, due to the nice +1/+1 and Islandwalk from Lord of Atlantis (doesn't work with the new lord though).

I think Forgemaster is situational depending on meta. For now, I will not cut it.

As for 12post, if that were the case, I would just run Turbodrazi. 12post doesn't fulfil some of the deck's broken plays such as a turn one Chalice at one, turn one Monolith to a turn two beater or even a turn 1-2 Trinisphere.

As for Mauler, I actually think it can shine in the deck because of Cavern + Changeling.

Zirath

08-15-2012, 11:02 PM

Wurmcoil Engine and Steel Hellkite would have eaten a PTE the same way Blightsteel Colossus did.

...

Kuldotha Forgemaster should have been a Batterskull/Godo mix. Wurmcoil would have been exiled JUST as easily as Blightsteel Colossus. Atleast, he would still have his crucible/waste recursion and his mox diamond to help him bounce the Batterskull and replay it again. This might not even have been enough in this situation though.You need to play cards that can survive an STP/PTE. If you don't have a way to beat STP or Jace, you are gonna have troubles making it to the top tables with MUD. My STP/Jace plan is chalice for 1, Batterskull or Godo, Bruizar Warlord. :D While you're at it, Cavern of Souls fights these type of decks' stack manipulation (StP and Jace frequently ride together (stoneblade/miracles).

I think you are exaggerating cards like Swords and Path. I have never lost a match in the past 3-4 months as a result of either of those cards and believe me, many have been cast on my creatures. Tight play complete ignores any problem created by exiling. You also don't play Revoker, which gets hit by Swords a lot.

Dodging Swords with Godo doesn't dodge other problem cards necessarily. It also makes Wasteland more live against you since Mountains are worth less than your other lands.

I think you underestimate how baiting Swords can win a game easily.

bruizar

08-16-2012, 05:11 AM

Along the same human-tribe line i was Considering arcum dagsson over kuldotha forge master. You still get to tinker but don't have to sack your board for an artifact. Arcum is human as well, so adding volcanics / caverns should cover the mana cost. I actually think a split between volcanic, mountain and scalding tarn is better. There are 4 cards I would try.

Main deck:
Possessed portal+Spine of Ish-Sah - get portal, then get spine, shoot something, sack spine to Portal, return it, replay it, shoot something.

Sideboard:
Contagion engine - against tribal and maverick
Trinisphere / witch bane orb

And maybe, but I don't think so, Mycosynth lattice, because it's crazy with Karn silver golem or voltaic key ( arcum becomes: tap remove a creature, karn becomes great nut lattice does nothing in its own. Lattice is also a post board liability

It also gets Batterskull and can use the germ as fodder for another artifact. The effect is less powerful than kuldotha forgemaster, but the fact that it 1 for 1's might be good enough. Also the interaction with lattice is nice since not only can you convert all his creatures to artifacts, you can sack arcum for itself and play another one. It's also another answer to gaddock teeg.

This is another card i need to try out.

@zirath: you, and some others have clearly been doing well with the colorless build. I think that you can't Hope for someone to catch your bait in a tournament nbecause you should always expect that you opponent makes the optimal play. Otherwise, your opponent is simply allowing you to win. I would love to see a game from you where you are dealing with plowshares on your key cards, beat gaddock teeg or circumvent counters.

Btw: what are the problem matchups you encounter and why? Which cards give you the most troubles?

I do think that I might be underestimating buried ruin.

@tyler: will think about mauler. Needs to be in play quickly to grow big, but uncounterable turn 2 mauler could get gigantic. Untapping with Godo is nutty! Good find.

@namelessone I think you're right about 12post. I tried making a draft of a list like that but it was terrible.

Zirath

08-16-2012, 09:11 AM

@zirath: you, and some others have clearly been doing well with the colorless build. I think that you can't Hope for someone to catch your bait in a tournament nbecause you should always expect that you opponent makes the optimal play. Otherwise, your opponent is simply allowing you to win. I would love to see a game from you where you are dealing with plowshares on your key cards, beat gaddock teeg or circumvent counters.

Btw: what are the problem matchups you encounter and why? Which cards give you the most troubles?

I do think that I might be underestimating buried ruin.

I don't need to hope for someone to take the bait; many times, they have to. Cards like Revoker and Hellkite completely tie up games and produce very awkward situations.

In the feature match I had from Jupiter, I played against Miracles, a deck with Swords and Permission. I beat him handedly. It's all about being proactive. You can proactively control their board position so they are forced to play sub-optimally.

Price of Progress. That card has given me the most trouble in matches. I can deal with counters and Swords and even Eldrazi. I can't deal with taking 8 damage on the spot which I can't block.

RUG Delver is a match I've needed to reconsider. I think it should be alright but I have to change my approach to the match significantly. This is the only match up where I wish I had Batterskull at times.

bruizar

08-17-2012, 09:14 AM

(nameless one)

08-17-2012, 10:10 AM

Quick update on my testing:

Mouth of Ronom
As expected, Mouth of Ronom was cut. The card is nice, but there are better lands to play instead. The activation cost is too steep, but what set me off the most is that there are simply better ways to get rid of Gaddock Teeg. I do think my paranoia for Gaddock Teeg is appropriate, since Gaddock Teeg is very strong against U/W Miracles as well. That said, after sideboarding in Grafdigger's Cage / Cursed Totem, Maverick isn't much of a deck anymore. We can also ignore Gaddock Teeg by siding out Karn Liberated and boarding in Cursed Totems. Another cool thing is that Godo ignores Maze of Ith, should they have found that land.

Why are you do scared of Teegs? Karn doesn't really do much in the Maverick matchup and Godo can fetch Battleskull. Mouth of Ronom isn't unnecessary.

Phyrexian Metamorph
Still requires more testing.

I love Metamorph. The dude is versitile. It can rebuy "comes into play" effects, can legendary kill relevant legendary creatures (including Teegs!). I will always suggest for it.

Taurean Mauler
Didn't have time to test yet. This card reminds me a great deal of Magus of the Moon though. Magus has disruption, while this is simply a 'dumb' beater. My initial feeling is that Moltensteel Dragon is better at dumb beats.

Tauren Mauler can come down on turn 2 without putting a lot onto it. The dragon is cool but it requires so much life.

Arcum Dagsson
Didn't have time to test this yet, but I am looking forward to it. I want to try either a full on Forgemaster combo deck or splash in an UR-build. Probably not enough creatures to support it, unless I play Mishra's Factory or something.

I think (not tested him) Arcum would be better in a more lockdown build. Not really sure if you want him in MUD as he can only tutor non-creature artifact. The only one I can see would be mana-rocks, Batterskull and lock pieces.

Although naming Artificer under Cavern of Souls is something (Goblin Welder, Master Transmuter). Though it sounds too janky for Legacy (maybe for Modern minus Welder)

bruizar

08-17-2012, 10:49 AM

Why are you do scared of Teegs? Karn doesn't really do much in the Maverick matchup and Godo can fetch Battleskull. Mouth of Ronom isn't unnecessary.

The biggest reason is because I am running Bonfire of the Damned, Karn Liberated and Batterskull. These all turn off by Gaddock Teeg which is a big issue. That said, Godo, can get Batterskull into play regardless, and I need to cut down on a Karn Liberated anyway. Having Bonfires shut off is a problem though, because Bonfire is a really, really big burn spell in this deck.

I love Metamorph. The dude is versitile. It can rebuy "comes into play" effects, can legendary kill relevant legendary creatures (including Teegs!). I will always suggest for it.

I'm inclined to agree due to the presence of cards such as Griselbrand.

Tauren Mauler can come down on turn 2 without putting a lot onto it. The dragon is cool but it requires so much life.

My problem with Taurean Mauler is that the opponent can decide not to play too many spells. In other words, they control how big it gets. Once it becomes a problem, it will eat a 1 for 1 removal spell. The card doesn't really solve any issues that the deck has in my opinion. As for the Dragon, you only use life when you are sure you can one-shot him to death. The Phyrexian Manacost costs quiet a bit of life, but so far I am liking him a lot. Evasion helps a bunch. It kind of depends on whether or not there are more aggressive artifacts alternatives available for us.

I think (not tested him) Arcum would be better in a more lockdown build. Not really sure if you want him in MUD as he can only tutor non-creature artifact. The only one I can see would be mana-rocks, Batterskull and lock pieces.

Although naming Artificer under Cavern of Souls is something (Goblin Welder, Master Transmuter). Though it sounds too janky for Legacy (maybe for Modern minus Welder)
Arcum Dagsson is a total paper-construct. Theoretically, he is a cheaper version of Kuldotha Forgemaster that doesn't require you to 3 for 1 yourself, but 1 for 1 yourself, with the limitation that you can't put into play any creatures, and you need to feed him creatures. If Kuldotha Forgemaster is so good, then Arcum Dagsson must have some merit to it as well, just without the additional cost of shattering spree'ing yourself to death.

SirTylerGalt

08-17-2012, 10:52 AM

I'd name "human" with cavern for Arcum Dagsson, since it lets me cast Godo too. But I don't really like him. If I'm going to play an utility creature (that needs to untap, and can get plowed / bolted), I'd rather stay monocolor and play Goblin Welder. Or play a real threat.

My favorite Kuldotha Forgemaster targets were creatures: Blightsteel Colossus, Myr Battlesphere, Sundering Titan, Wurmcoil Engine, Phyrexian Metamorph (copying a Myr Battlesphere tutored the previous turn for some more tokens), and Duplicant. Non-creature targets were usually Spine of Ish Sah and Staff of Domination (with Metalworker and 3+ artifacts in hand), and they were rarely tutored for. Also, I would usually sac non-creatures (like used Grim Monolith, Mox Opal, artifact lands...), while Arcum forces you to sacrifice a creature.

I want to try a Godo build without Metalworker (since the artifact count will be lower), with Snow-Covered Mountains, Mox Diamond, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, Buried Ruin, and Crucible of Worlds. Crucible is great against control, and helps you protect your manabase against RUG Delver and other mana denial strategies. Ghost Quarter lets you waste-lock opponents (in combination with wasteland), but can also fetch a mountain when you really need red mana. Add a few Glacial Crevasses in the SB against aggro.

I've yet to test Taurean Mauler, but I think it could be nice as an early threat. It applies pressure, and forces the opponent to deal with it. If it gets sworded, it's one less sword for my wurmcoil engine :) It's a little like Metalworker. Usually, people kill Metalworker on sight, because they know it can power very dangerous threats very fast.

MTG Junkie

08-18-2012, 10:26 PM

(nameless one)

08-18-2012, 10:46 PM

Iv been testing a Forgemaster list with a green splash for 2 Sylvan library.
The splash has been working great. Makes me wonder if there's any other green cards that could work in the deck. I did try Choke in the board but its not as good as I wanted it to be.

Anybody else ever tryed splashing green? What cards do you think might be good in audition to my Sylvan splash?

It has been done before. It also ran Gaea's Cradle and a critical intensity of creatures o support it (such as Phyrexian Revoker and Spellskite). It also ran Summoning Trap as a means to cheat robots into play.

Ecstatic_Conch

08-19-2012, 09:20 PM

(nameless one)

08-20-2012, 12:31 PM

Some of the forgemaster builds have left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Getting a hand clogged full of high casting cost artifacts without a metalworker is not a fun day.

There must be a way to give the deck a better curve and not be as inconsistent. The archetype as a whole needs some streamlining work done. [/quote]

I have only dedicated one-two slots for Forgemaster (I am running 3). This way, you avoid that awkward hand of having a high casting cost artifacts. And I would never activate a Forgemaster unless my board consists of non-threats (such as extra Mox, tapped Monoliths, Metalworker with an empty hand)

If you must insist on playing high casting cost artifacts, the enabler has to stick. I'd make a strong case for cavern of souls' inclusion in the deck based on my testing. Perhaps in the slot of wasteland.

I have been running Cavern of Souls with no regrets.

Yes yes, I know how amazing wasteland is, but somehow the idea sacc'ing a land in a deck trying to ramp mana just seems nuts to me.

The Wastelands are there for getting rid of your opponent's utility lands (such as Maze of Ith) or to deny your opponent a color/mana once you have board control or a means to cast artifacts with mana artifacts. I would never use Wasteland in the early game unless I have a turn 2 Wurmcoil/some other hard to deal with threat. I wouldn't even Wasteland if I have Metalworker unless I have already got Metalworker's value.

So far I've liked the stompy versions of the deck with wurmcoil, steel hellkite, etc. better. Goblin welder has been derided on this forum, but I think people have been a touch too dismissive of his presence in this archetype.

I think Welder still has a shot (along with Caverns) in the Stompy build because of the utility it brings but right now, I wouldn't recommend relying on it. (like my previous combo-centric build)

We'll see how the lists hold up in real life when I get the rest of the cards for multiple versions of this deck in the upcoming weeks.

Good luck with that.

bruizar

08-20-2012, 01:06 PM

On Cavern of Souls
I love this card. It gives the deck so much more game against counters. It's great that you are able to resolve your bombs AND have access to colors for a splash.

On Wasteland
I agree with what you're saying. I have cut Wasteland before and it has proven to be more consistent. My Godo build already trumps Karakas and Maze of Ith (2 attack phases, and more equipment when you bounce Godo), so the need to turn off utility land is already reduced. Wasteland can be a liability when you need to use it for mana, and RUG wastes your Wasteland instead. Mountains have thus far been really good for me, but perhaps some other lands can provide greater utility. I think a lot of MUD players are too greedy with their utility lands, and they get punished for it by cards like Wasteland and Price of Progress.

Consistency Issues of Forgemaster
Consistency issues are the main reason why stompy decks simply don't work. We all know that we can go broken sometimes, but can we actually win in a 2 day tournament with MUD? Not if we're not consistent in our draws. This is one of the core reasons why I have tried to focus on getting the mana-curve down. I still believe that Bonfire of the Damned is the best outlet for extra mana, even if that would be played only as a 2-off.

On Welder
I see what you're saying. We should not forget that goblin welder is THE goblin welder. One card that I personally really enjoy playing is Razormane Masticore. The 5/5 First strike body with a built in bolt is very nice especially against maverick. The problem of Masticores however is that this deck already draws horribly and getting it plowed after pitching something to it exposes you very hard. I have also thought of cards such as Solemn Simulacrum, but the card seems way too fair for this format. At this point, I don't see where Goblin Welder fits in the MUD-puzzle. Faithless Looting strikes me as not broken enough for Goblin Welder, unless you're also playing things such as Crucible of Worlds and perhaps Barbarian Ring. What is the best way to set up or otherwise utilize Goblin Welder right now?

(nameless one)

08-20-2012, 11:03 PM

bruizar

08-22-2012, 08:36 AM

Just brainstorming in here. Sorry if I'm pulling the thread in a lot of different directions, but I feel that there is still so much left to explore in the archetype. I've been thinking about Cavern of Souls on Artificer.

Stoneforge Mystic and Goblin Welder are both powerful artificers that work well with Batterskull and Swords. I'm wondering if there is a possibility of an equipment heavy deck utilizing:

4x Chalice of the Void
4x SFM
3x Goblin Welder
2x Godo
2/3x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sunforger for sideboard stuff stuff? (Boil, Red Elemental Blast, Orim's Chant seem good.

Consequently, there is also Stonehewer Giant, but I'd rather stick to Godo, Bandit Warlord for it's immediate impact and strength against spot removal/jace. Cavern doesn't tap for SFM's ability, so a fetch base with Arid Mesa, Plateau and 1 Plains/1 Mountain might be required, but having SFM in the deck sounds pretty strong.

Firefraise

08-22-2012, 02:21 PM

about the use of prototype portal.

I've just goldfish this list

4 ancient tomb
4 wasteland
4 darksteel citadel
4 city of traitors
4 lotus petal

3 sensei's divining top
4 lodestone golem
4 phyrexian metamorph
2 batterskull
4 smokestack
4 chalice of the void
4 tangle wire
4 metalworker
3 voltaic key
4 grim monolith
4 prototype portal

It appears we can use a portal imprinted with the metamorph to copy himself. I find myself to use this technique in order to play the tops and keys the chalice forbid me to.
I believe lotus petal and metalworker can be played along the portal with some efficiency.

L10

08-22-2012, 02:54 PM

I am loving MUD Stompy right now. I tried it last week for the first time and got 4-1. This week I got 5-0, splitting the pot. I am the only person in my meta playing MUD, so the surprise factor is there. Most people probably assume I play Meandeck variant as well. Here is my list. It is similar to Fropper's and Zirath's.

// Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Buried Ruin

// Ramp
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Grim Monolith
3 Metalworker
3 Voltaic Key

// Beats
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Steel Hellkite
3 Batterskull

// Tools
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Staff of Nin
3 Phyrexian Revoker

// Sideboard
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 All is Dust
2 Karn Liberated
3 Cursed Totem
3 Torpor Orb
4 Trinisphere

The MVPs are definitely Rishadan Port and Staff of Nin.

While Staff of Nin does cost six mana to cast, the reach it provides from the extra card draw and ability to kill relevant creatures in the current meta is absolutely worth the investment. It also ticks off UW Miracle dudes because even with Terminus, I can harass them or Jace every turn, one point at a time, and my deck has the better clock. Staff of Nin also goes nicely with Voltaic Key.

Rishadan Port needs little explanation. It is an absolute house in the early game when you try to build your board state and late game when you lock your opponent down. With a couple Ports and a Thran Dynamo, it can be a hard lock. It has also been one of my favorite cards since the inception of Vial Goblins, and later on, DnT.

I am also loving Torpor Orb in my SB. Firstly, it kills goblins, strait up. It shuts down Matron, Ringleader, SGC, Stingscourger, MWM, and the Tuktuk Scrapper they would naturally side in. It is also good against Stoneblade because shuts down Mystic, Snapcaster (reduce permission count), and Vendilion Clique (who can ruin our gameplan). The only problem is if I get Torpor Orb out before I getting Revoker against Jace, but the trade is worth it. It is similar to the dichotomy of having both Chalice and Key.

The only deck I am currently uncomfortable with is against Rock. It was the deck I lost to last week. The combination of creature removals, hand disruption, and land disruption can create an unrecoverable state. And if they get out an early Gaddock Teeg, it can basically seal the deal, as I have no reliable solution against it.

Loving the deck so far.

Just brainstorming in here. Sorry if I'm pulling the thread in a lot of different directions, but I feel that there is still so much left to explore in the archetype.
Keep at it bro. New ideas are always welcome.

How would your customize your mana base to include both white and red sources? Last time you said we are too greedy with our mana base and can die from Wastelands and Price of Progress, but wouldn't the inclusion of Plateau be the same? How are you liking SoFI?

bruizar

08-22-2012, 04:55 PM

I have to say, besides the mono-red godo build I am playing now (my current optimal godo list), I see the colorless version as the only viable alternative for a tournament right now. The 2 decks are different animals, but I wouldn't play the meandeck variant over either of these decks.

Rishadan Port needs little explanation. It is an absolute house in the early game when you try to build your board state and late game when you lock your opponent down. With a couple Ports and a Thran Dynamo, it can be a hard lock. It has also been one of my favorite cards since the inception of Vial Goblins, and later on, DnT.

Rishadan Port is a card that's very difficult to evaluate, just like Meddling Mage. Sometimes, you just don't know what kind of hell you unleash because you don't have that information. I value my colored splash too much to support it. In my opinion, Rishadan Port is best when you have something like Lodestone Golem out.

While Staff of Nin does cost six mana to cast, the reach it provides from the extra card draw and ability to kill relevant creatures in the current meta is absolutely worth the investment. It also ticks off UW Miracle dudes because even with Terminus, I can harass them or Jace every turn, one point at a time, and my deck has the better clock. Staff of Nin also goes nicely with Voltaic Key.

Staff of Nin is a very interesting card that I really sort of dismissed due to its mana cost. I can see how the card can be good, because for that 6 mana, at least it cantrips and accelerates into more business while also pressuring utility creatures, planeswalkers and life totals, even if it's just 1 damage a turn. 1 damage a turn is half an ancient tomb, and we all know how painful ancient tomb can be :). I would have to try it out before I can say much about it. It's not my kind of card, but I see how it can be great when you actually land it and you're not being SnT'd to death or something. In a very different build, I played Granite Shard, so I know that 1 damage + voltaic key can be very strong.

I am also loving Torpor Orb in my SB. Firstly, it kills goblins, strait up. It shuts down Matron, Ringleader, SGC, Stingscourger, MWM, and the Tuktuk Scrapper they would naturally side in. It is also good against Stoneblade because shuts down Mystic, Snapcaster (reduce permission count), and Vendilion Clique (who can ruin our gameplan). The only problem is if I get Torpor Orb out before I getting Revoker against Jace, but the trade is worth it. It is similar to the dichotomy of having both Chalice and Key.

I hate the fact that Torpor Orb kills my Batterskulls and Godos. Otherwise I'd definitely consider running it. It fits the curve of the deck and is great against Stoneblade and Goblins yeah.

The only deck I am currently uncomfortable with is against Rock. It was the deck I lost to last week. The combination of creature removals, hand disruption, and land disruption can create an unrecoverable state. And if they get out an early Gaddock Teeg, it can basically seal the deal, as I have no reliable solution against it.

Gaddock Teeg is something I can finally put to rest. Right now, I am playing 2 Duplicant (over Phyrexian Metamorph) and 2 Mouth of Ronoms. In hindsight, I had more than enough mountains to support my Godo's and Bonfires, and even though Mouth of Ronom usually does nothing, it is an answer to a card that would otherwise cripple the deck. I have yet to find a better land in the mono-R build, even though Mouth sounds a little janky. In my list, I would rather have mouth than wasteland or Rishadan Port, because mouth improves my matchups against problem cards. There is one other land I have added since Mouth of Ronom. Blinkmoth Nexus. I believe Blinkmoth Nexus is much better right now than Mishra's Factory, because Blinkmoth Nexus can stall Delver. RUG Delver usually tries to land a first turn Delver into a bunch of counters and ride the delver to victory. When you land a Blinkmoth Nexus, he simply can't pressure you with Delver of Secrets unless he spends his bolts / Wastelands when he finds them. When tempo needs to dig for answers, it loses its tempo and is forced to play your game which gives you a better chance of winning. Mouth of Ronom killed a delver last night as well, after resolving chalice for 1 and chalice for 2. I won that game :-)

Keep at it bro. New ideas are always welcome.

How would your customize your mana base to include both white and red sources? Last time you said we are too greedy with our mana base and can die from Wastelands and Price of Progress, but wouldn't the inclusion of Plateau be the same?

A double colored manabase is stretching it and I'm not even sure if I can make that playable in the first place. I guess I would start with something like:
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Blinkmoth Nexus / Wasteland/Ghost Quarter

I would run at least 2 Crucible of Worlds to get more value out of my fetch lands. Buried Ruin wouldn't be neccesary with Goblin Welder. Smokestack would be nice since I have both Goblin Welder, Crucible of Worlds and Batterskull to abuse it. Not sure about Ghost Quarter yet, but it can help with color fixing as well as disrupt a little bit. However, it's not a wasteland lock against decks other than RUG. As you can see, this mana base has troubles. Perhaps Flagstones of Trokair is a better way to ensure my white activation for Stoneforge Mystic, since it also works with Smokestack and I can just keep Wastelands in the deck. This manabase would need some serious thought that I haven't put enough in yet.

How are you liking SoFI?
SofI is actually pretty good with Blinkmoth Nexus which I'm running right now. At first, I had both SoFI and SoLaS main, but a friend of mine suggested that if I were to run 2 swords, that I should run 2 SoFI's main and 1 SoLaS in the side. I'm liking SoFI more than Lightning Greaves because Godo with haste gets chumped by nimble mongoose, and I don't like that :-). Also, rather run swords in a threat light deck than jitte.

about the use of prototype portal.

I've just goldfish this list

4 ancient tomb
4 wasteland
4 darksteel citadel
4 city of traitors
4 lotus petal

3 sensei's divining top
4 lodestone golem
4 phyrexian metamorph
2 batterskull
4 smokestack
4 chalice of the void
4 tangle wire
4 metalworker
3 voltaic key
4 grim monolith
4 prototype portal

It appears we can use a portal imprinted with the metamorph to copy himself. I find myself to use this technique in order to play the tops and keys the chalice forbid me to.
I believe lotus petal and metalworker can be played along the portal with some efficiency.

I actually like this prototype portal list quiet a bit. I think that you might want to find place for Etched Champion to this list. Prototype Portal and 4 Darksteel Citadels enable metalcraft quickly, and copying Etched Champions will simply make the board go out of hand.

(nameless one)

08-22-2012, 05:19 PM

At Torpor Orb:

It will not affect Phyrexian Revoked or Phyrexian Metamorph because their abilities are not triggered abilities. "As ~ enters the battlefield" effects do not use the stack.

It also won't affect Batterskull since Batterskull isn't a creature.

L10

08-22-2012, 05:36 PM

Hey, thanks (nameless one). I did not know the "As ~ enters the battlefield" effects do not use the stack.

bruizar

08-22-2012, 09:32 PM

Fire fraise:
Perhaps you could try -1 key, -2 smokestack +3 etched champion in your list.

Champions are a bit like ensnaring bridges,mbut the problem used to be that isn't a clock.

You can make a whole swarm and equip Batterskull so you should be fine I think.

Also noteworthy for your list is sculpting Steel, should you find yourself running out of copy effects. I really don't see how that card can be squeezed in right now, as the list is already very tight, but still.

How are the lotus petals for you? It increases your 'sol lands' hands, so turn 1 Chalice must be more consistent for you, but it's still a one shot effect. With so little lands, wouldn't it be a better idea to run 4 extra artifact land or just 4 extra buried ruin or something?

Firefraise

08-23-2012, 08:46 AM

I like the champion idea.

The reason for petals is chalice, my meta is very vulnerable to it's effect. But after a few goldfishes I don't think they're better than extra lands. I suppose seat of the synod should fit, as it let us play metamorph without the pain.

The list is tight but I think your suggested changes and maybe +1 sculpting steel -1 metalworker, makes a good alternative.

The inclusion of seat of synod makes me think about a light blue splash, running fabricate in order to imprint or copy the artifact we need the most at the moment. I can't see what to cut though. Maybe it is more efficent in a U/w MUD/artificer modern version.

It makes me dream about a Mishra deck...

Esper3k

08-23-2012, 10:34 AM

So I finally get a chance to watch the clip. He should have have fetched for Sundering Titan. The reason:

He played Crucible, then replayed his Wasteland and used it to target one of his opponent's land. From there, what he could have done is:

- Sacrificed Forgemaster, Mox and Furnace to grab Sundering Titan. This will destroy all his opponent's mana while shrinking the Nacatl. If his opponent did have the land next turn (which he didn't), then he will for sure Path to Exiled the Titan (destroying the new land that he played). While he still has Ancient Tomb and Factory. He still has enough lands to amass threats (and can still recur his lands via Crucible) while leaving his opponent behind on lands. Worst case scenario, he can keep attacking with his animated Factory until he draws into more threats.

Its not that Forgemaster is not good, its just people don't know how to play it properly. Its one of those cards that punishes you if you don't play it properly.

The opponent had an untapped Plains. If he Forgemasters for Sundering Titan, he could still float a white and Path it. Don't get me wrong, I think Sundering was correct, but the opponent still had a chance to Path it on that turn.

Also a mistake he did was Wastelanding the Taiga. He should've just used the Wasteland to activate the Factory, then Forgemastered the Mox Diamond, Great Furnace, and Factory to get Titan. The Titan can blow up all the Zoo player's lands, then gets Pathed, but leaves the MUD player with a Forgemaster + Crucible.

L10

08-23-2012, 01:08 PM

@ Firefraise, I like your list. I tried it last night at Cockatrice and did fairly well. Had you considered putting in two Karn, Silver Golem? Turning your locks into beaters can be pretty good. You can also turn Batterskull into a solid 5/5 beater if the germ token dies before sending Batterskull back to your hand.

The 2 decks are different animals, but I wouldn't play the meandeck variant over either of these decks.
Actually, I can see myself playing Kuldotha Forgemaster. I won't play a full set, but two copies makes a nice tutor. A late game Metalworker or Grim Monolith loses value, and don't mind getting an extra beater or Staff of Nin. I don't see myself playing the traditional Meandeck list though.

Rishadan Port is a card that's very difficult to evaluate, just like Meddling Mage. Sometimes, you just don't know what kind of hell you unleash because you don't have that information. I value my colored splash too much to support it. In my opinion, Rishadan Port is best when you have something like Lodestone Golem out.
Rishadan Port is good because there are a lot of times I have open mana at my disposal, and I'd rather be doing something productive than just passing my turn, especially in the late game. I am also not a fan of just laying down all of my threats. If I have one or two beaters in the field, I would rather deny mana than putting down another Wurmcoil, because most decks can't handle our fatties anyways.

Staff of Nin is a very interesting card that I really sort of dismissed due to its mana cost. I can see how the card can be good, because for that 6 mana, at least it cantrips and accelerates into more business while also pressuring utility creatures, planeswalkers and life totals, even if it's just 1 damage a turn. 1 damage a turn is half an ancient tomb, and we all know how painful ancient tomb can be :). I would have to try it out before I can say much about it. It's not my kind of card, but I see how it can be great when you actually land it and you're not being SnT'd to death or something. In a very different build, I played Granite Shard, so I know that 1 damage + voltaic key can be very strong.
Against most blue mages I fought, they rare counter Staff of Nin on G1. They either think I am baiting them or think I have better cards in store. Three turn later, they realize their mistake when I am able to kill all their creatures but Stoneforge Mystic, and gain massive card advantage. Six mana is not hard to come by, considering that I replaced my Karn Liberated / All is Dust slot for it.

I believe Blinkmoth Nexus is much better right now than Mishra's Factory, because Blinkmoth Nexus can stall Delver.
RUG is not a matchup I am scared at all. Trinisphere and Chalice are devistating against them. Factory does a nice job at stalling Mongoose. I also like Factory because I can treat him as a early beater. The only time I am really scared is if the have a Price of Progress in the SB.

At first, I had both SoFI and SoLaS main, but a friend of mine suggested that if I were to run 2 swords, that I should run 2 SoFI's main and 1 SoLaS in the side.
I'd rather have both SoFI and SoLaS to bet honest. With us running Ancient Tomb, a little life is all it takes to victory. SoLaS is also a good way to get back the creatures that got countered early on and is probably better than SoFI against UW Stoneblade. We can block Batterskull all day without them getting Lifelink and laugh at StP at the same time. Besides, having both in the MD provides a better toolbox for Godo. I'd rather have 1 SoFI and 1 SoLaS MD, and 1 SoFI SB.

bruizar

08-23-2012, 06:44 PM

I'd rather have both SoFI and SoLaS to bet honest. With us running Ancient Tomb, a little life is all it takes to victory. SoLaS is also a good way to get back the creatures that got countered early on and is probably better than SoFI against UW Stoneblade. We can block Batterskull all day without them getting Lifelink and laugh at StP at the same time. Besides, having both in the MD provides a better toolbox for Godo. I'd rather have 1 SoFI and 1 SoLaS MD, and 1 SoFI SB.

1 SoLaS MD and 1 SoFI SB was my configuration after testing, but I sort of got talked out of it, so now I am running the reverse (1 SoFI main, 1 SoLAS side). I got over-thrown by the wisdom of convention I guess, but you are right. 3 Life gain helps us survive our own ancient tombs, denies lightning bolts and pro white protects against plow, which were my main reasons for playing it. However, my bodies already are resistant to plow, but I dont have many forms of creature removal / card advantage, so soFI should be better. as you can see, I am still struggling with this decision myself.

The opponent had an untapped Plains. If he Forgemasters for Sundering Titan, he could still float a white and Path it. Don't get me wrong, I think Sundering was correct, but the opponent still had a chance to Path it on that turn.

Also a mistake he did was Wastelanding the Taiga. He should've just used the Wasteland to activate the Factory, then Forgemastered the Mox Diamond, Great Furnace, and Factory to get Titan. The Titan can blow up all the Zoo player's lands, then gets Pathed, but leaves the MUD player with a Forgemaster + Crucible.

Imo, if he had a Myr Battlesphere, this would have been the optimal play. He really just needed to force-bait the plow and either race with Battlesphere if Forgemaster got plowed, or get Sundering Titan if Battlesphere got plowed. This way, he would not be blown out of the water by the first plowshares. And yes, he greatly misplayed his forgemaster activation by not sacking his Mishra's Factory to it. He should not have sacked that crucible.

I like the champion idea.

The reason for petals is chalice, my meta is very vulnerable to it's effect. But after a few goldfishes I don't think they're better than extra lands. I suppose seat of the synod should fit, as it let us play metamorph without the pain.

The list is tight but I think your suggested changes and maybe +1 sculpting steel -1 metalworker, makes a good alternative.

The inclusion of seat of synod makes me think about a light blue splash, running fabricate in order to imprint or copy the artifact we need the most at the moment. I can't see what to cut though. Maybe it is more efficent in a U/w MUD/artificer modern version.

It makes me dream about a Mishra deck...

I think your list is definitely in the right direction for the Prototype portal build. The list is super tight right now, but I think Etched Champion has a good place to shine in this deck. Please tell us your testing progress.

In more light-hearted news:
I am very proud to announce that I almost completely foiled out the entire archetype for legacy and vintage: mythic mud/meandeckmud/godomud/prototypeportal mud/vintage mud/workshop aggro/redshop aggro/vintage stax).

The last foils I am looking for are:
1 Karn Liberated
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Arcum Dagsson (yeah, this one is coming too)
and the new Ancient Tombs :D.

Some of the sweeter cards?

Godo's, Batterskulls, Goblin Welders, Grim Monoliths, Workshops, Wastelands, Rishadan Ports and Thran Dynamo's. :D Oh and, even though Moltensteel Dragon is a dirt cheap foil, that card looks like a million bucks!

L10

08-23-2012, 07:30 PM

bruizar

08-23-2012, 07:52 PM

bruizar, I am actually recommending playing both SoLaS and SoFI in the MD. I am going to try out Godo next week and see how it goes. Not sure how I want to configure yet, but I think I want 3 Godos, 3 Batterskulls, 1 SoFI, and 1 SoLaS. I may even fit in Moltensteel Dragon if I can find the room, but I find Steel Hellkite's one-sided EE to be very good.

I have had 2 / 2 / 2 - godo / skull / swords, 3 / 2 / 1 godo skull swords and 2 / 2 / 1 godo skull swords right now. I'm still not sure what the right configuration is. The flexibility of different swords is pretty sweet.

I played a bunch against ANT the other night. I have not lost a single game on the play. In one game, I landed a first turn Chalice of the Void for 1 followed by a Moltensteel Dragon. Moltensteel Dragon provided me with a really fast clock and the ANT player couldn't do anything about it. Obviously, Chalice won that game for me, but Moltensteel Dragon on turn 2 provided me a way to close the game very quickly.

If you're going for equips, here are some other equipments to consider. Disclaimer: Most of these suggestions will suck compared to swords and batterskull, but I like to be thorough with our options. Here are my results from looking through the gatherer:

Elbrus, the Binding Blade -> Really? Well, I dunno, you don't really want to Godo for it, but it's a decent topdeck with Blinkmoth Nexus. Cheap equip cost, but disasterous casting cost, worst topdeck ever on a creatureless board. If you managed to jump through its hoops, then flipping becomes another issue (plowshares / lightning bolt will try to prevent you from summoning Withengar Unbound.

Umezawa's Jitte -> Very decently costed, works well with Blinkmoth Nexus. Otherwise, the deck is too threat light to support it I think. It's still a decent option against burn to complement your Batterskulls.

Lightning Greaves -> In case you already landed a Batterskull, you probably want to have Lightning Greaves as your Godo target.

Grappling Hook -> Gets 12 damage through, and you get to pick off troublemakers such as Hierarchs, stoneforge mystics and Teeg. Problem is, this needs godo under a teeg to get in play. So

Argentum Armor -> 12 mana if youdon't have Godo is too much. That said, if you can cast a godo, you can cast an Argentum Armor, unless you used Grim Monolith to tap for it, or if they waste your sol land. If it was a little cheaper to equip, I'd play it in a heart beat since it has insane synergy with Godo.

Tatsumasa, the Dragon's Fang -> This card is much more inefficient than Batterskull, HOWEVER, it can get you a 5/5 flyer and doesn't need a body to equip. Equipping it on Godo means you still get 16 damage through in the first attack, and your Godo will be very hard to block with even a knight or a goyf. I am not exactly sure how Tatsumasa interacts with Swords to Plowshares. Does it stay in exile? Can someone confirm the rules of this card please?

Deathrender -> Cool effect, I just don't see it happening

Nim Deathmantle -> I haven't actually tried this yet, but I've always been intrigued by the card. Intimidate is actually relevant, as it protects your Godo, or ensures that Batterskull can lifelink on both offense and defense. The Deathmantle is a source of card advantage and acts as a line of defense against aggro decks. It's only 2 mana to cast so it's not shut down, and easily castable. The activation costs are probably too much though.

O-Naginata -> This used to be a Workshop-favorite. Works on everything except Metalworker and Blinkmoth Nexus/Factory unless pumped. Pretty much outclassed by swords

Basilisk Collar -> Chalice doesn't help, but Basilisk Collar is a nice card. Unfortunately, it's better in more creature dense decks.

Sword of Kaldra - > Perhaps it's overkill, perhaps not, at least you will be killing a bunch of creatures with it. If it comes through, it hurts yeah, but the equip cost is too much.

Manriki-Gusari I don't think this is necessary. We have better Stoneforge Mystics than stone blade.

Quietus Spike You don't want to block it and you don't want to let it through

Grafted Wargear I love this card, but not for this deck.

Moonsilver Spear This card is interesting. A recurring source of threats. Great with manlands and great with godo. Turns metalworker into something useful when you have nothing to cast.

Mortarpod -> sideboard Dredge hate. Used in elves because they have a lot of fodder, but we could use it as an extra tormod's crypt that is accessible in the late game with Godo.

Umbral Mantle It can untap something, perhaps combo with Metalworker, but I don't see it.

Runed Stalactite Helps non-godo creatures untap, but we don't need it.

Grafted Exoskeleton Turns godo into blightsteel colossus (5/5 infect with 2 strikes), but with all the same issues of bsc. (plow and summoning sickness)

Blazing Torch Cheap removal for Gaddock Teeg perhaps in the board.

EDIT:
Sword of Vengeance - Suggested by L10. Swiss army knive with first strike for extra survivability. Makes Wurmcoils really scary. You could use this over Lightning Greaves if you feel like you need something that gives you haste, but with some additional aggression.

L10

08-24-2012, 10:28 AM

SirTylerGalt

08-24-2012, 11:59 AM

I realized that a one-of Prototype Portal can be quite good in a build with Forgemaster and Voltaic Key, since it lets you generate tons of Voltaic Key tokens (which you can sacrifice to activate Forgemaster), as well as untap Forgemaster.

Example:

Kuldotha Forgemaster and Voltaic Key in hand. Play Forgemaster.

Next turn, untap (with 6+ mana), sac 3 artifacts to get Prototype portal, imprint Voltaic Key.
1 mana, first Voltaic Key Token. 1 mana, tap Key, untap Portal.
1 mana, second Voltaic Key token. 1 mana, tap Key, untap Portal.
1 mana, third Voltaic Key token. 1 mana, tap Key, untap Forgemaster.
Tap forgemaster, sac 3 Voltaic Key, get another threat.

Next turn, create 3-4 voltaic keys tokens, sac 3 of them to tutor a new threat...

If you have more mana (thanks to Metalworker?), you can go broken and generate a lot of keys... Once you have a dozen Voltaic Key tokens, you can tutor a one-of Staff of Nin and kill the opponent (untapping it with key).

Sensei's Divining Top would also be interesting in such a build (comboes with Key as well as Prototype Portal).

Problem is, I want to play too many things, but have too little space:
- Forgemaster
- Wurmcoil
- Godo / Bonfire of the Damned
- Voltaic Key / Sensei's Divining Top (which also helps with Bonfire) / Prototype Portal
- Chalice
- Staff of Nin

Also, it seems like Voltaic Key usually goes in the MUD Stompy build (with Grim Monolith + Thran Dynamo), while the Forgemaster Build does not play Key / Thran Dynamo.

bruizar

08-24-2012, 12:23 PM

I am at work right now. I will take a better look at your list tonight. But one equipment you are missing is Sword of Vengeance. It turns Wurmcoil Engine into a bigger Batterskull, with trample. Sounds amazing too me.

Sword of Vengeance should be on the list, edited the post to keep everything together.

When you get back, take an extra moment to think about Moonsilver Spear. The more I think about it the better I think it is. When you attack just once, you get a new, evasive flyer that you can equip the Spear to. It's a shame that the card doesn't pump, because the first strike on Godo would really help him out (he has to attack twice so he's sucking up damage with only 3 toughness). It has obvious synergy with manlands, and the token is enough to block delvers forever. The best thing is that you don't have to connect to get the token.

vintersorg

08-24-2012, 09:37 PM

Batterskull, godo, swords..we are trying to make a stoneforgeless-blade :laugh: not a bad idea , anyone went to a tournament with Godo?

L10

08-25-2012, 01:58 AM

Before I say anything, SoFI, SoLaS, and Batterskull are clearly the best Godo targets. But let's expand our horizon and look at other equipment targets.

Not interesting:

Elbrus, the Binding Blade -- I use this in EDH for fun but I don't think it will function well in MUD. With the mana cost at 7, I'd rather bring out a threat, Staff of Nin for card advantage, or Karn Liberated for control. Also, we really do not run much evasion cards. Another downside it that there are more flyiers now (Delver, Griselbrand, Angel tokens) than in the past so Blinkmoth may not get us there. Elrus may never transform, and our opponent may find a permission card once we do connect. I don't think it is worth our effort.

Umezawa's Jitte -- A good sideboard option against creature decks. I actually think SoLaS and SoFI makes Godo a much more scary threat, since his 3/3 body is less than impressive. It would have been amazing if Godo had Double Strike so we can use Jitte counters after the first strike. Bus alas, he does not. Again, a good SB option. But there are better swords available for the MD.

Argentum Armor - Yeah, pretty much what you said. Without Godo, we waste a turn to bring it out, and another turn to equip it on a creature, assuming we have one. Not worth it in my opinion. Getting 12 generic mana in one turn does not seem likely, or we'd be playing Blightsteel Colossus.

Tatsumasa, the Dragon's Fang -- If the Token gets bounced or exiled, we do not get our sword back. No thanks.

Deathrender -- The problem with this card is that we do not run that creatures (and Batterskull does not count) and the +2/+2 effect is pretty underwhelming. I can see it being used it it did more, in a different deck.

Nim Deathmantle -- I am not sure if we will have four mana open just to use Nim's trigger. Maybe in the late game? Though, people leave three mana open to bounce Batterskull, so how knows. I will probably skip it.

O-Naginata -- Pretty much what you said. I preffer Loxodon Warhammer to be honest.

Basilisk Collar -- Basilisk Collar + Goblin Sharpshooter is pretty funny. I used to fool around with it in Vial Goblins. Don't think it will make an impact in MUD, considering it does nothing for Wurmcoil Engine, which is my main beater.

Sword of Kaldra -- Overkill. I mean, with the +5/+5, we can pretty much kill any creature anyways. The second affect is not needed. And we can't kite creatures with Sword of Kaldra to make it useful.

Manriki-Gusari -- Agreed. Not needed. I mean, what equipments do we want to destroy? Batterskull? Well, we have one too, and other bigger robots. Jitte? Nah.

Quietus Spike -- I don't find this necessary. Godo with his 3/3 body can easily be match. If we equip it to another large robot, it seems overkill, as it does not have much value in the late games. It will probably allow use to kill our opponent with one less hit, but this is not needed.

Grafted Wargear -- What do you like about this card? The oracle text makes it not worth equiping to manlands.

Mortarpod -- Yeah, I can see this as a 1-of SB card against dredge.

Umbral Mantle -- It's utility is too narrow and the +2/+2 is underwhelming. I'd rather have the 4th Key. As a Godo target, useless.

Runed Stalactite -- A hilarious SB option against Merfolk with LoA out, but it's crap. Looking at your comment, you meant a different card, right?

Grafted Exoskeleton -- Not only Godo, but it turns all of our creatures into potential Blightsteel Colossus. The thing is though, Blightsteel Colossus can usually win the turn he comes out in Meandeck MUD because of Lightning Greaves and good timing. A second win condition may seem as a win-more move, and may not actually help MUD's strategy overall. Regardless, this is one of my favorite Godo targets in EDH, for obvious reasons. ;)

Blazing Torch -- Meh. I'd rather run removals, like Sudden Shock, against Teeg and other annoying utility creatures. In fact, I find Sudden Shock to be fantastic in my Dragon Stompy deck.

Interesting:

Sword of Vengeance -- As discussed.

Lightning Greaves -- Actually, I find Lightning Greaves an incredibly good equipment, period. I used it three weeks ago when tinkering my deck before going to a tournament, and found it decent at chalice slot. I didn't want Chalice because I liked my Keys not getting countered, but wanted a form of protection against StP. Lighting Greaves does just that. A hasty Metalworker is also gamebreaking, and won me a couple games. Hasty robots also give Miracle decks headaches after they used Terminus the previous turn. Not a good Godo target but a great equipment overall in MUD.

Grappling Hook -- Actually, this does look realy good. Godo with double strike is very scary and this can be used as a form of removal, twice. It also goes well REALLY with Wurmcoil Engine. Deathtouch + Double Strike + Provoke sounds like an insane combo, and we also gain 12 life per turn? Sounds good to me. This card is at least cute.

Moonsilver Spear -- Lu Bu and his Lunar Spear was my first reaction. After reading card, I had a moment of laughter to think this is our Entreat the Angels. The synergy is obvious and we do have the mana, so this card may be worth a slot.

So yeah, these are my opinions. I am especially excited for Sword of Vengeance, Grapping Hook, and Moonsilver Spear.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////

But now we have another issue, where do we find the room? This is a list that I just brainstormed.

// Lands (22)
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnace
4 Snow-Covered Mountains (love the Ice Age art)
1 Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep (Seems good with Godo)
1 Hammerheim (Because I like the art. Saved me once against Merfolk with Spreading Seas in totally different deck. Once.)

// Ramp (14)
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Grim Monolith
3 Metalworker
3 Voltaic Key

// Beats (14)
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Godo, Bandit Warlord
3 Batterskull

// Tools (4)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Magus of the Moon
1 Sword of Vengeance
1 Grappling Hook
1 Moonsilver Spear

Suggestions?

whiley85

08-25-2012, 03:05 AM

Before I think about other Equipment for Godo why don't you complete the playset of Godo/Batterskull? It is obviously the best combination. You don't need mana to equip, you can keep going with casting more threats.
And since Godo is very easy to handle you don't mind having two legendaries in hand.
Play 4 Godo, he's the nuts!

IMO Etched Champion feels very comfortable with Godo/Batterskull. Simply equip him with skull and ride to victory. He races even a progenitus + another creature! Unremovable is a big plus!

bruizar

08-25-2012, 07:30 AM

@Runed Stalactite: It makes the equipped creature a Samurai so you get to untap it with Godo. It's still crap though, but an interesting interaction.

I really like a miser Shinka, The Bloodsoaked Keep. First strike is a very relevant ability and it gives Godo some extra survivability in combat.

Too bad Untaidake, the Cloud Keeper doesn't tap for 1 mana on normal spells, otherwise I would have liked to test it with Karn Silver Golemns and Godo's as Sol Land 9-12 (brings consitency which is why workshopshop is so succesful in vintage).

Batterskull and Swords are head above shoulders the best equipments that we can run, but we shouldn't be blind to alternatives. I'm unsure which non-batterskull, non-sword equipment I would run at this point and will likely just stick to what we have, but considering alternatives is important when we have thousands of cards in the card pool.

On the topic of equipments, maybe it's worth it to look at the other swords too:

Sword of Fire and Ice
1) Card draw is something this deck lacks.
2) extra damage / removal against Gaddock Teeg and other utility creatures.
Sword of Light and Shadow
1) Raise dead gets back threats. We have a lot of big bombs, so getting them back is good.
2) Life gain eases damage from Ancient Tomb
Sword of Body and Mind
1) Extra body is useful. Be sure to equip the sword to the wolf because:
2) Mill only grows Knight of the Reliquary and Scavenging Ooze to mythic proportions.
Sword of Feast and Famine
1) Discard is great against combo.
2) Untap works with Manlands and Grim Monolith. Untapping Ancient Tomb is pretty useless unless you like self-inflicted damage a lot.
Sword of War and Peace
1) Extra damage can easily be enough for an alpha strike with Godo
2) Life gain is nearly irrelevant, as you won't have close to 7 cards in your hand anyway.

Blue Protection:
Jace, the Mind sculptor
Delver of Secrets
flash Snapcaster Mage block
flash Vendilion Clique block
Merfolk

White Protection:
Flash Aven Mindcensor block
Swords to Plowshares
Knight of the Reliquary
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Mother of Runes
Path to Exile
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Gaddock Teeg
Qasali Pridemage

Red Protection:
Lightning Bolt
Goblins

Black Protection:
Germ Token
No relevant creatures in the current meta that I am aware of.

Green Protection:
Nimble Mongoose
Gaddock Teeg
Noble Hierarch
Scavenging Ooze
Tarmogoyf
Eternal Witness
Knight of the Reliquary
Scryb Ranger
Qasali Pridemage

Blue protection is not as important when your creatures are already strong against cards like Jace. Unless you're expecting a lot of Merfolk, I wouldn't mind leaving without a blue sword. White and Green are the most relevant protection colors right now. White is better because it shuts down Swords to Plowshares. You need at least protection from Knight of the Reliquary in this format, because he can outgrow everything you have. This makes War and Peace or Light and Shadow an important sword. War and Peace has great protection against removal, but the abilities itself are not that hot. The lifegain is about the same as Light and Shadow, and pro-red protects from lightning bolt and pro-black protects against Batterskull germ token. It comes down to the preference between:
War: Added damage (faster clock)
Shadow: Raise dead (virtual card advantage)

For the second sword, if you're going to pick Sword of Fire and Ice, you will have 2 pro-red swords with War and Peace, and nothing against Stone Blade (except better Batterskulls!).

If you're going to pick Sword of Feast and Famine, you will have something against Batterskull and perhaps a better sword against combo, while also having pro-green which is relevant against the best decks (RUG: Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, Maverick: Nearly everything). Maverick can still use Mother of Runes to block though. Locking in to Feast and Famine means you still need pro-white. This feels suboptimal because taking light and shadow means you have overlap on pro-black (batterskull), whereas the utility from War and Peace isn't really big.

Sword of Body and Mind is the last option for the sword package. Body and Mind is very versatile, but you have to be careful about what you mill. You don't want to accidentally mill 8 lands and get alpha-striked by MoM+Knight of the Reliquary. The good news is, artifact creatures generally don't care about MoM, but the bad news is, Godo and Wolf tokens do have a color identity. That said, Sword of Body and Mind gives you a recurring source of creatures in a creature light deck, while also giving 2 very relevant protection colors. In my opinion, the best combination of swords right now are:

Sword of Light and Shadow + Sword of Fire and Ice
This gives you 2 sources of virtual card advantage and a way to get rid of problematic creatures while protecting your dudes against lightning bolts.

OR

Sword of Light and Shadow + Sword of Body and Mind
This gives you 2 sources of virtual card advantage, relevant protection colors against the formats' biggest beaters, and the ability to have both a Green and White sword to play with against Maverick.

This lets me come to the following conclusion:
Maindeck:
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice OR 1 Sword of Body and Mind
Sideboard:
1 Sword of Fire and Ice OR 1 Sword of Body and Mind

I do not think Feast and Famine is currently worth it, since we already have Lodestone Golem and Chalice of the Void against combo. It would be good against decks like spiral tide and show and tell, but you will probably not be able to win that match fast enough anyway.

ReinVos

08-25-2012, 08:47 PM

Godo MUD is the real deal. I've had the pleasure of playing against many iterations of the deck. Bruizar and I have talked about the deck for hours and hours, not to mention the number of games we've played. I usually bring the usual suspects; Delver RUG, Maverick, UW and ANT.

Delver RUG is a favorite, although not overwhelmingly so. The Delvers are rough to deal with because they apply early pressure while the Dazes and Spell Pierces protect them from the few answers the deck has against them (Bonfire or Rolling Earthquake). Not only that, Tarmogoyf tends to grow to be a 5/6. Without equipment, Godo MUD doesn't have a threat that trumps this size and the deck often dies to it. Delver RUG is just so efficient at getting the opponent in boltrange that it doesn't really matter if Godo MUD can stabilize the board, as it just dies to one or two Bolts to the face. The countersuite RUG has is often enough to slow down MUD long enough to win the game. That said, it also happens often enough that I have the wrong counters for the cards that are thrown at me. Needless to say I lose those games.

Maverick is a slight dog. Zenith into Teeg (often only sideboard) is a serious problem but we've tweaked the deck to handle it better. Although Pridemage is very good against this deck, it's difficult to answer each threat Godo MUD can present, as well as being a bit mana intensive (especially from a Zenith). The sol lands and artifact acceleration make it possible to present threats at a high rate. Maverick must work to get some board presence going before it can start answering threats, otherwise it's not going to win games (except when the MUD deck craps on it's pilot). Godo and Karn are amazing, as Maverick can't counter or plow them (plowing Godo answers half the threat). That said, Maverick is still a very powerful deck, well-equipped to deal with just about anything. Sometimes it just has a good draw, and that's all it takes.

UW is a favorite, though not by much. Results may be skewed as games go very long so it's hard to get accurate results because it's easy to mess up something, giving away the advantage. I've won games I shouldn't have won and vice versa. Godo trumps Jace and Plowshares because it presents two threats (not to mention Batterskull is a recurring threat) but Vendilion Clique and hardcounters like Counterspell and FoW have shown to be extremely good against this deck. I'm playing a Blade variant so I can't say anything about the UW Miracles match-up, except that Terminus would probably be a nuisance.

ANT is a slight dog, although we haven't played any sideboarded games. The games have a vintage feel to it, where games end very, very quickly. Chalice at one is usually all it takes to dismantle ANT game one because I don't get enough time to reach threshold (which is near impossible without throwing away cards into Chalice, leaving me with little action to kill), while the MUD player can easily follow up with another Chalice or Lodestone Golem, which spells GG. On the play it's easier because I can name Chalice with Therapy or get rid of it through a Duress. Duress can sometimes screw me over when MUD has a double Chalice hand or a hand with turn two Lodestone Golem when I don't have enough action to go for the turn two kill (as I'm aggressively looking for discard spells in my opener). The player who wins the die roll has the best chance of taking the match but if I had to pick a favorite, it would be MUD.

These are four of the best decks legacy has to offer and I can't say any of the four decks really dominates it. It has the tools to beat up both fair and unfair decks and it has a nice element of surprise to it (I know the contents of the deck and find it hard to consistently beat it with streamlined builds of tier one decks so imagine someone oblivious to Godo MUD). Not only that, this is a work in progress, competing against decks that have passed the test of many, many tournaments. So although I've won more games than I've lost to this deck, I'm still very impressed by what it's capable of!

L10

08-27-2012, 01:00 PM

bruizar, I think SoFI + SoLaS is the best combo. SoBaM is terrible because of the mill affect. It is basically a dead card against any deck that uses the graveyard, which is basically everybody. Which mean against those decks, we can only use this as a defensive tool. I don't find the 2/2 body to be relevant either.

Also, I did try out the three non-skull and swords I thought was interesting (Sword of Vengeance, Grappling Hook, Moonsilver Spear). Of the three, I thought Sword of Vengeance was the best Godo target because it turned him into a big threat. With five power, it can beat Batterskull (first strike = no lifelink), Goyfs a lot of times, and an early Knight. And of course, it also goes well with our other robots. Grappling Hook would have been my second choice if there were a bunch of utility creatures and I want them dead, Godo can usually take them down. Grappling is also insane with Wurmcoil Engine, as expected. Though, I found his mana cost and equip cost too high to cast it regularly. Same goes with Moonsilver Spear. Moonsilver Spear was pretty good if my robots manage to live a couple turns. Otherwise, I can potentially pay 8 mana for 0 Angels if my robot gets destroyed, or just 1 Angel if the robot is weak, which is a loss of investment. So in summary, Sword of Vengeance is awesome, Grappling Hook has it's place, and Moonsilver Spear was decent. Though, I don't think my list catered to use Moonsilver Spear, which may have been the issue.

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

What do you guys think about this list by Aaron Chism? It made 14 out of 142 players:

// Lands [22]
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

// Creatures [14]
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Myr Battlesphere
3 Sundering Titan
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine

// Sorceries [3]
3 All Is Dust

// Artifacts [21]
1 Trading Post
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Mox Diamond
2 Staff of Domination
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
4 Trinisphere

// Sideboard
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Angel
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Mindslaver
1 Karn Liberated

I have thought about using 12 Post + Sol Lands, but I never thought it would be consistent without Expedition Map to fetch the Cloudpost.

(nameless one)

08-27-2012, 08:06 PM

I am still not a believer of 12-post in the deck. Its just too slow with less utility in the manabase (look at Zirath's list)

As for Trading Post, I still think that card is potential. Has anyone seen the Black Market decks in Standard. Although its more of a black staxx-like

Anyways, Trading Post:
-can gain you life if you're low on life. It can also feed Goblin Welder
-it can act as a pseudo Forcefield
-it can recur artifacts (as long as you sacrifice Hellbent Metalworker. With that, you can even play combat tricks (sacrifice a tapped Wurmcoil Engine to create two blockers.
-it can draw cards if you have 'worn out' artifacts.

I can see Trading Post going with Goblin Welder but not as a combo build, but rather a value build. Run Chalice of the Void with it (thank you Cavern of Souls), essentially a hybrid.

As for the Forgemaster build, I just checked the GenCon Meta and apparently 4 people played the Forgemaster build and non of them even managed to top-32. I think everyone is prepared for it. On the other hand, I think a lot of them rely too much on Forgemaster (which I personally think is a mistake). Forgemaster should only be there if you want to tutor something if you're down (aka you have no threats but only utility artifacts). I would never sacrifice artifacts that are not 'worn out' to Forgemaster. Only sacrifice tapped Grim Monolith, Hellbent Metalworkers, extra Mox Opals and Voltaic Keys. I would never sacrifice a Great Furnace if I can't recur it. I would never sacrifice a Lodestone Golem. I would only activate Forgemaster if I know I'm on the clear (and can win with it) or if I'm really down.

Also, as for that kind of build, I think Faithless Looting is a must as it will turn the deck into all-in early bash and win kind of deck. Durdling around with Forgemaster/Welder type of build will lead to nowhere.

Personally, I think Chalice is the way to go right now. It either address most of the problem cards this deck faces or totally shuts down a lot of deck to beats. If theres more Goblins/Merfolk/Maverick around your area, I would go for the Forgemaster/Welder one (and play it properly) but if your'e meta is Tempo and Combo, I would go for the Chalice/Stompy builds.

bruizar

08-28-2012, 01:46 PM

I'm still digesting thev12 post list. It is interesting, but I would need to run that mana base a while to get a sense of how it plays. My first thought is, not many ways to land a turn 1 chalice. As for trading post,mi haven't had time to play around with it yet but have seen it in standard and layer7b/legacy.

Firefraise

08-29-2012, 06:52 AM

I gonna test my list this tuesday, meanwhile I did some goldfishes with cards I wanted to test, mainly as a prototype portal target.

I tried Urza's bauble and Mishra's bauble instead of sensei's divining top. It is cute but not that much useful. I tried Lotus bloom instead of metalworker. The possibility to create at least a black lotus every turn seems very strong.

Lotus bloom doesn't have a mana cost, but it has a converted mana cost, so if I am not wrong we can imprint it.

When smokestack is on play, lotuses gives us more choices when we need to sacrifice permanents.

Lotus bloom, fallowed by a sol land and chalice at one on the first turn seems to be a strong play as it let us cast a portal turn 3 with tangle wire, phyrexian metamorph or batterskull imprinted and activate it this very turn.

Creating multiple portals with a metamorph imprinted one circumvent counterspells. This makes me questioning myself about the best way to fight stifle and pithing needle.

jamis

08-29-2012, 04:50 PM

I've been playing a 12post + Sol land manabase for a few months now. I think it works out really well in a more controlling build with more emphasis on Metalworker + Staff since cloudpost also lets you abuse Staff. I don't like that he didn't include Mishra's Factory since it seems like a natural fit, but it is an interesting list. Kind of a hybrid of what I've been playing and traditional MUD. I think I'll test it out and see what I think.

Alex Holland

08-31-2012, 12:46 PM

This is what i plan to make:

4#Great Furnace
4#City of Traitors
4#Ancient Tomb
3#Cavern of Souls
3#mountain
3#Mishra’s Factory

4#Chalice of the Void
4#Lodestone Golem

3#Goblin welder
3#Magus of the moon
2#Phyrexian Metamorph

3#Metalworker
3#Thran Dynamo
4#Grim Monolith

4#Wurmcoil Engine
3#Godo, Bandit Warlord

4#Batterskull
1#Sword of Fire and Ice
1#Sword of Light and Shadow

Only problem is my red mana, since i put in welders i often cant find red mana for either welder or godo. Maybe ill ad 2 mox opals if i can find some space. I have also been thinking about dropping metalworker all together in favour of magus of the moon since it kills so many decks. What do you think?

PS: ebrus binding blade seems OK with godo. only 1 to equip.

bruizar

08-31-2012, 12:55 PM

Alex Holland

08-31-2012, 02:41 PM

Nice list. It's close, but different from what I play, but I can give you some advice on the manabase. I think you are underestimating basic Mountain. Great Furnace opens you up to color screw, and mox opal is simply bad in a deck with high CC artifacts. I would change either Factory or Wasteland, depending on your preference, to a couple of basic mountains for consistency and being less prone to wasteland yourself.

i still dont feel those basics, bu if i drop the wastelands i can add some. By doing so i can also take out the crucibles and replace them by some magus of the moon guys. If i play magus i dont need wasteland anymore in most cases. And by adding mountains i get less color screw. If been pulling some nice hands, much more coistent and aggressive this way. Whats the opinion about magus here?
Whats your list?

JanoschEausH

08-31-2012, 04:34 PM

I have one stupid question: Why is MUD called MUD? I can't figure out what these letters stand for.

Alex Holland

08-31-2012, 05:44 PM

Mud is brown just like artifacts in magic.. (well they just to be brown )

(nameless one)

08-31-2012, 07:18 PM

I have one stupid question: Why is MUD called MUD? I can't figure out what these letters stand for.

Because back in the day when the first iterations of the deck spawned, all old-frame artifacts are color brown (kinda like Da Vinci blueprint style brown). Not to mention that the colors of the lands it used are also of the same color. The archetype was dubbed MUD Because it's mono-brown, like clay or mud.

manugl84

09-01-2012, 07:42 AM

I always thought that MUD was for Mono Uncolored Deck.:rolleyes:

bruizar

09-01-2012, 08:19 AM

MUD stands for Metalworker Utter Domination, nothing else.

mordraid

09-01-2012, 08:24 AM

MUD stands for Metalworker Utter Domination, nothing else.

I your mind, nowhere else. MUD isn't an acronym of any sort. It came out because of the brown cards used in the old T1 decks while ago.

bruizar

09-01-2012, 08:35 AM

I your mind, nowhere else.

I don't like the abbreviation either. I think MUD as in colorless/clay is more appropriate. Godo Mud, or Red Mud actually makes thematic sense from that angle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_mud

Red mud is a solid[1] waste product of the Bayer process, the principal industrial means of refining bauxite in order to provide alumina as raw material for the electrolysis of aluminium by the Hall–Héroult process.[2][3][4] A typical plant produces one to two times as much red mud as alumina.[5] This ratio is dependent on the type of bauxite used in the refining process.[3]

in short: Very toxic land, nothing can live there, except robots and godo.

____
Biggest changes in my list are that I play 2/3 Karn Liberated + 2 Moltensteel Dragon, and no Wurmcoil Engine, and I don't play Welder but Bonfire of the Damned.

Alex Holland

09-01-2012, 12:22 PM

Godo is a human.. just a normal man. Altough he is al little rough being a barbarian and all, he is made from flesh and blood.
MUD resembles more like a factory i think.. city of traitors (a big forge?) and machines wich work there. thats why added mishra factories :tongue:

OT: I suddenly realise that magus is also human so thats nice with cavern. So i either choose human or construct with this deck, definetly need 4 caverns if i continue my build!

HoneyT

09-04-2012, 08:44 PM

I 4-0'd at my LGS last night with the following list:

Land:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Great Furnace
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Creatures:
3 Etched Champion
3 Godo, Bandit Warlord
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Metalworker
2 Wurmcoil Engine

Spells:
2 Batterskull
2 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Thran Dynamo
3 Voltaic Key

Sideboard:
1 All is Dust
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Duplicant
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Karn Liberated
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sundering Titan
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Trinishpere
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I couldn't find the cards for my ideal sideboard because I was in a hurry, hence the wonkiness there. But the deck ran well. I'd be more than happy to write a small report if anyone is interested!

OuterCrow

09-05-2012, 01:57 AM

I 4-0'd at my LGS last night with the following list:

LIST

I couldn't find the cards for my ideal sideboard because I was in a hurry, hence the wonkiness there. But the deck ran well. I'd be more than happy to write a small report if anyone is interested!

Well done! Would definitely be interested in a report, I think the Godo list is an intriguing variant of MUD.

bruizar

09-05-2012, 06:37 AM

Hey HoneyT,

Congratulations! I'm really looking forward to a report and your experiences on how certain cards performed.

(nameless one)

09-05-2012, 09:59 AM

I am looking forward to the report as well and see how Godo performed.

PS. I actually think Godo is the real deal but as a different archetype. It reminds me more of Wildfire.dec circa 2001.

Alex Holland

09-05-2012, 12:17 PM

So.. did u miss not having the caverns of souls?

kingofethanol

09-05-2012, 11:37 PM

Hey all I've been MIA from the MUD threads for months. It seems like a ton of variants have emerged, and that makes me very excited. Has anyone found their favorite version?

As of now, I am running a relatively old version. I've played in a few tournaments a few weeks ago, and has done well at small tournaments with a very up-to-date meta-game. As of now I need help against UWx Stoneblade decks, as I seem to never win against it.

Cards I'm really curious about:

-Goblin Welder. (nameless_one), I read your tournament report on page 7. Welder seemed to win you a good handful of games, but saw that you boarded in Chalice for almost all of your second games. Is Cavern + Welder worth it? It's been a few months since it was suggested but I haven't gotten around to trying it. I'm tired of getting my stuff Forced, so if Welder + Cavern has really been working for you guys let me know.

-Slash Panther. I am currently running 3 Slash Panthers in my sideboard because Jace just sucks. It hasn't been working for me so far, as all the games I've played involved my opponent landing a Batterskull. I don't get the opportunity to test often and I don't want luck to bias my opinion, but is it worth dedicating the slots for?

-Tangle Wire. Probably better if you're running Welder, but how is it if you're not? I already know what I feel about Trinisphere, but running both the Wire and Sphere of Resistance sounds really cool. Also foils would look amazing.

-Thran Dynamo. I used to run Voltaic Key but took it out because I run Chalice main. I miss it a lot, but the times it hurt me outnumbered the times it helped. However I hate getting blown out when someone counters the spell off my Monolith and Wastes my sol land the following turn. Dynamo looks very reliable, but is it worth running? If so, how many do I add and what do I cut between ramp and threats?

-Phyrexian Metamorph. What determines the number you run main board? Or is does it come down to preference. I hate having all my stuff removed/countered, leaving me with nothing to copy and no business, but when it works it works well.

-Batterskull. I'm seeing more and more lists (Godo and not) running Batterskull. What is the logic behind this (aside from the fact that it is an amazing card on its own)?

-Duplicant: How does this work with Show and Tell? Say your opponent flips the Spaghetti and you flip Duplicant. What happens?

The lists involving Trading Post and/or Godo are intriguing.

For those of you repping the old school Metalworker/Forgemaster lists, I have been really impressed with the following cards.

-Steel Hellkite. This card does so much. A resolved one seals the game against Canadian Thresh. They either have to block with Delver or just lose it when you pay 0 and in other cases destroys Goyfs and Mongooses. Flies over Batterskull to either kill the Germ or SFM/Snapcasters. I have yet to pay 4 to destroy both a Jace and and Elspeth, but I hope it happens soon.

-Blightsteel Colossus/Platinum Emperion/Staff of Domination/Spine of Ish Sah. This is my tutor package. I try not to get too crafty. When I tutor I just want to end the game on the spot or save myself with the Emperion. Sacrificing three unused artifacts is your best case scenario, so when you're tossing away up to three useful ones the card you're getting must be worth the investment. No fluff.

Lastly, I am curious about the following match ups, as I have yet to play against them:
-Omni-Show/Sneak and Show
-Counterbalance/Miracles

L10

09-05-2012, 11:40 PM

Hey, nice job HoneyT. I have a couple of questions. How do you feel running with both Sensei's Divining Top and Voltaic Key in the MD with a set Chalice of the Voids? Have you had awkward top decks because of it? How do you like Etched Champion? I can see him as an awesome sword carrier, but kind of weak without them. How has Bonfire of the Damned been treating you with only 2 Tops and no Brainstorm? I guess with all our ramps, we can cast it normally with great effect. A write-up would be awesome!

I am actually working on a blue variant of MUD. This is my current build:

// Mana (22)
6 Island
4 Seat of Synod
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Mox Opal
2 Academy Ruins

// Ramp and Cheats (16)
4 Metalworker
4 Master Transmuter
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Grim Monolith

// Tanks (12)
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

// Protection and Disruption (10)
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Spellskite
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

// Sideboard
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sundering Titan
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Torpor Orb
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Trinisphere

I am bringing this deck to my LGS next week and see how it goes. I have decided to use Kuldotha Forgemaster and Master Transmuter because I want to be able to bring out the big threats. My usual Kuldotha target is Inkwell Leviathan because of shroud and evasion against blue. If I feel comfortable, like against burn, I can bring out Blightsteel Colossus for a quick finish. Master Transmuter is nice against blue in general because I can cheat my artifacts in, but it also solve some weird occasions when I have Blightsteel Colossus and Inkwell Leviathan in my hand. Mox Opal also goes very nicely with Master Transmuter because I can tap for Mox Opal for mana, trade it with an artifact from my hand, and put it back down again for reuse. Spine of Ish Sah is a brutal Kuldotha target that has value with Master Transmuter online. Aside from Spine and Chalice, this deck is pretty good against Teeg.

If I am missing any good MD options, please tell me. I am working on the SB for now.

Has anyone found their favorite version?
Hi kingofethanol! I will reply to your post tomorrow. But my favorite variant so far is MUD Stompy, similar to Zirath's and Fropper's.

HoneyT

09-06-2012, 10:24 AM

Sorry it's taken so long guys! I haven't had time to sit at a computer for awhile. Anyway, as per request, the report! I'll repost the list for easy reference:

Land:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Great Furnace
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Creatures:
3 Etched Champion
3 Godo, Bandit Warlord
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Metalworker
2 Wurmcoil Engine

Spells:
2 Batterskull
2 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Thran Dynamo
3 Voltaic Key

Sideboard:
1 All is Dust
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Duplicant
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Karn Liberated
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sundering Titan
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Trinishpere
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Round 1 vs R/B Land Destruction Infect????

He's a new player and new to Legacy so I had no idea what he was playing.

G1: I win the die roll and lead with a turn one Chalice. We both play land, go. His second turn he Sinkholes me. Third turn Stone Rains me. I play more lands and a Lodestone Golem. He casts Corpse Cur. I play more dudes and he never gets through before Golems. Batterskulls, and a Wurmcoil get him.

+1 Jitte, +1 Crucible, -1 Sword of Light and Shadow, -1 Chalice of the Void

G2: I keep a reasonable hand with 3 lands and some dudes. He spends his second and third turn blowing up lands again and I never see another the rest of the game. I discarded cards while he killed me with a 2/2 Corpse Cur. How embarrassing.

G3: I get an Etched Champion wearing a Jitte and lock him out.

Round 2 vs High Tide

G1: I lead with a turn one Chalice. It resolves and he scoops shortly after. He'd kept a hand with several cantrips.

+2 Red Elemental Blast +3 Trinishphere, +1 Tormod's Crypt, -3 Voltaic Key, -1 Sword of Light and Shadow, -2 Bonfire of the Damned

G2: He mulls and leads with a cantrip. I have a land Top and pass. He passes back. My turn 2 Trinishpere resolves, as does the turn 3 Lodestone Golem. In the event that he could have Cunning Wished for some answer, I still had backup REB and Chalice in hand. The 5/3 gets me there

Round 3 vs Elves

G1: I have a tuirn 1 Chalice on the play but no real clock. His fetched Dryad Arbor starts beating me down while I play some mana rocks. I get down to around 10 life from Ancient Tomb and Dryad Arbor before I find real action. He gets a Mirror Entity and my Lodestone Golem eats it. Godo for Batterskull wearing a SoFaI end it in convincing fashion

+1 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 All is Dust, +2 Phyrexian Revoker, +2 Trinsiphere, -3 Voltaic Key, -2 Sensei's Divining Top, -1 Sword of Light and Shadow

G2: He mulls to 4 =/ leads with a Nettle Sentinel. I cast Monolith into Trinisphere. I Wasteland his second land and he never sees another one.

Round 4 vs Merfolk

G1: This kid usually plays Infect so I kept a hand with 2 Chalices. He wins the die roll and leads with Mutavault, Aether Vial. I cast a Chalice for 1 anyway. His Mutavault beats down for awhile as does a Cursecatcher. I land a Lodestone Golem. He vials in a lord and swings in. I Ghost Quarter his Mutavault and eat his lord. I eventually land an Etched Champion wearing a SoLaS that beats him to death while 2 Lodestones hold down on defense.

+1 Umezawa's Jitte, +2 Red Elemental Blasts, +1 All is Dust, -4 Chalice of the Void

G2: He leads with Mutavault into Vial again. My turn one City of Traitors produces a Grim Monolith, which resolves, into a Metalworker that also resolves. His Vial ticks up and he plays an Island and swings in for 2. I untap with Metalworker. Produce 8 mana, and resolve a Lodestone Golem. I use the rest of my availible mana to cast Godo with zero floating. He tries to Daze it. I point out that it costs one more. He looks dejected as it resolves. I find a Batterskull. Winning from there is quite elementary.

4-0 good for 1st place and a chunk of store credit.

Some thoughts:
-Godo is nuts. Not even kidding. He's almost always better than Wurmcoil Engine
-Etched Champion is also suprisingly nuts. Slap a Batterskull on him and he turns into a brick shit house. Slap anything else on him and he's still pretty damn good believe it or not. Turns out pro all colors and equipment are BFF's
-Never got to Bonfire anybody =(
-Despite not having my proper sideboard, what I had ran pretty well
-I'm contemplating some changes and I'll post an updated list sometime soon

@Alex Holland

I've never personally ran Cavern in MUD. I've thought about it, but haven't gotten around to testing it. So I can't really say I missed them although there are definitely situations against some decks where they would be quite good. I wanted to make sure I had access to red when I needed it for Bonfires and REBs. If I wasn't playing REBs in the board (I didn't plan on it), I would probably swap a couple Great Furnaces for Caverns.

@L10

The times where I topdecked Keys or Tops after resolving a Chalice never ended up mattering because I had the game locked up already. That question brings me to an interesting point however, earlier when I mentioned some possible changes, one of those was swapping Trinispheres to the main and boarding Chalices. I'll test it and see if it runs. Right now the Chalices are main because it's the easiest lock piece to get down turn 1. Like I mentioned earlier, I'm actually in love with Etched Champion right now. Even without equipment, he isn't that bad as nothing can really attack past him on the ground. Also, like I said in the report, I've never had the chance to Bonfire anybody yet, but there was always mana aplenty for good sized ones even without manipulation.

Apologies for the lengthy post!

L10

09-06-2012, 10:58 AM

@ kingofethanol

Slash Panther - This is an excellent card in Vintage because the opponent can bring out Jace pretty early before committing board position, and Slash Panther can kill an unprotected Jace due to haste. I don't think this will work in Legacy because Jace is normally used as a late game card when the opponent has already sets up a board position. If you want a Jace-killer, I prefer Inkwell Leviathan. Inkwell Leviathan has evasion against blue and has shroud, making it resilient to StP or being bounced by Jace.

Tangle Wire - Tangle Wire is definitely a must if I were to go with the prison route, which also includes Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Karn, and Smokestack. I am not sure how it will work out in MUD Stompy or Welder MUD because we want to balance out our lands, ramps, threats, and disruption.

Thran Dynamo - Love it in MUD Stompy. By far our most resilient ramp if you want consistency. The 4CMC is a worthwhile investment. Here is Zirath's report if you want to see a deck with a good mana/ramp/threat/disruption ratio.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24437-Top-4-Jupiter-Games-s-NELC-with-MUD

Phyrexian Metamorph - If you plan to have it in the MD, I would only have one so it can be tutored with Kuldotha against legendary creatures or artifacts, and have a second copy in the SB.

Batterskull - Efficient beater that fits our mana curve and is resilient to removal because we can always bounce and recast him. Heck, if someone kills the germ token, sometimes, I will just equip it to another creature of mine.

Duplicant - A decent creature removal. It will eat up the Spaghetti Monster and turn into a 15/15 beater. Pretty decent trade if you ask me.

Staff of Domination - Isn't this card just a win-more? How often do you combo out?

@ HoneyT

Nice report. I should try out your list eventually. I don't have Bonfires though. I am currently using Flametongue Kavu as my main removal in my Godo build. The fact that it deals 4 damage means that it can kill an Angel token or Batterskull, both are pretty relevant, and the 4/2 body is no slouch either.

How do you like Ghost Quarter? Wouldn't you want Mountains instead? Only having 8 red source seems pretty light.

(nameless one)

09-06-2012, 12:39 PM

@ HoneyT's

Bonfire:
Would you still run it after this tournament? It looks like you won all your games without it. I guessing SDT is going to get removed too if Bonfire leaves?

Champions:
I like how they only costs 3 and you're always guaranteed to hit Metalcraft. This I should definitely give a try.

@ Slash Panther:
Slash Panther is good in Vintage because there are less decks that run Swords to Plowshares. That's not the case in Legacy. This is also why Lodestone Golem and Forgemaster are better in Vintage than Legacy.

@ Staff of Domination:
Yes, it's a win more card. How often will you Forgemaster for it when you've already emptied your hand to cast all your key artifact. Late game without real card advantage, you're always gonna be hellbent.

@ Ghost Quarter:
You can always GQ a triggered City of Traitors. Though its a really cute play.

@ Thran Dynamo:
Any good alternatives? Maybe Everflowing Chalice? I can't seem to find one around the area and I never really had the time to look for one.

Alex Holland

09-06-2012, 03:30 PM

So.. If you play champion youll have a good change your equipemnt comes trough. Does this change wich equipments are best for the godo build?

ryO!

09-06-2012, 04:49 PM

one question about the new godo build that i really find attractive
why no rolling earthquake instead of bonefire ? it's seems better in any situation no ? or is it just a price tag break ?

Zirath

09-06-2012, 05:12 PM

Lastly, I am curious about the following match ups, as I have yet to play against them:
-Omni-Show/Sneak and Show
-Counterbalance/Miracles

For my list (MUD Stompy), both of these have been favorable.

Show and Tell decks are about the long game; mine is better than theirs.

Miracles is about the short game. If I can lock it up quickly, they die.

In any case, mana denial wins me these matches.

kingofethanol

09-06-2012, 05:22 PM

I've been through many situations where I just drop Metalworker, fetch out a Staff and win the game. Currently it has helped more than it hurt, but I will keep in mind of the win-more factor.

What should I replace Slash Panther with? I need to be able to kill Jace with something that I can cast for under 5cmc, so Inkwell Leviathan is out of the picture. Etched Champion seems like it can help but its only a 2/2.

Thanks for the help guys.

L10

09-06-2012, 07:49 PM

You can always play Pithing Needle against Jace. Otherwise, you have All is Dust, Karn Liberated, Spine of Ish Sah, and an unanswered Phyrexian Revoker.

HoneyT

09-06-2012, 08:20 PM

@(nameless one) and ryO!

Re: Bonfire

As of now, it's definitely staying in the deck. I haven't gotten to use it to good effect yet, but it's definitely powerful enough to play. There are almost zero situations where the Earthquake would be better. Bonfire is one-sided and mana is not an issue. If I do end up cutting them, yes, I will cut Tops too.

@Alex Holland

The best equipment are still the best. No need to get cute. Batterskulls and Swords and Jittes are where it's at.

@L10

Re: Ghost Quarter

In addition to the City of Traitors trick described by (nameless one), it serves several purposes. Against some decks, they're extra and sometimes better Wastelands. It's also an extra red source so I played a virtual 10 sources. You can GQ your own lands to get a Mountain if you need to cast a red spell. It's also a shuffle effect for Top and works very well with Crucible out of the board. Definitely staying in for now.

(nameless one)

09-06-2012, 08:32 PM

@ Jace

Revoker (protected with Chalice at one) is the way to go. Flying over Hellkite and bombing it is good too (considering it won't get bounced). Protecting your robots with Lightning Greaves and haste-swinging at it also helps.

@ Ghost Quarter

I think another important role it can do is remove utility lands such as Maze of Ith, Rishadan Ports and Tabernacles. While Ports can deny mana, they can't deny some utility.

HoneyT

09-06-2012, 08:40 PM

@ Ghost Quarter

I think another important role it can do is remove utility lands such as Maze of Ith, Rishadan Ports and Tabernacles. While Ports can deny mana, they can't deny some utility.

Like I said, extra Wastelands.

Zirath

09-06-2012, 09:56 PM

kingofethanol

09-07-2012, 04:57 AM

Zirath

09-07-2012, 01:24 PM

How is Precursor Golem in this deck? It provides a lot of damage, can be easily casted, and provides the perfect amount of Forgemaster fodder. Against decks Storm or Reanimator that don't run removal (most of the time?) and responds poorly to pressure, this can be a house. This card can also be good against Jace. The obvious downside is when Lodestone and other Golems get caught up in the mix post-removal, but what if you manage to protect them with Chalice? Does anyone think it's worth the trouble? I don't think a single activation of a Spellskite saves your guys, and paying +:u::u::u:/6 life to save your dudes kind of sucks.

Precursor Golem is just a bunch of 3/3s. I don't see why it's better than Batterskull at the same cost.

Additionally, Chalice doesn't actually do that much with Precursor. You still lose 2 Golems to spot removal.

You don't want more creatures that die straight up to Bolt.

(nameless one)

09-07-2012, 05:09 PM

Not just that, you could also potentially lose Lodestone Golem (and Platinum Emperion/Sundering Titan if you run them) if they remove your Precursor Golem.

Alex Holland

09-08-2012, 04:51 AM

My deck is getting out of control!

Yesterday i dropped metalworker and good old welder. I even dropped lodestone. I don't know wich deck im playing anymore! :tongue:

This is what i have:

4#City of Traitors
4#Ancient Tomb
4#Cavern of Souls
4#Mountain
3#ghost quarter

4#Grim Monolith
3#Thran Dynamo
2#Great Furnace

4#Godo, Bandit Warlord
4#Batterskull|
1#Sword of Fire and Ice
1#Sword of Light and Shadow
1#Umezawa’s Jitte

3#Etched Champion ????? > spellskite?
4#Magus of the Moon
4#Wurmcoil Engine
3#bonfire of the damned
3#Karn Liberated
4#Chalice of the Void

I think its a very solid list.

I added etched champion, but he seems very little. Is dont think he is really all that since i have lock pieces like chalice and magus of the moon. batterskull is also hard to remove. Plus champion will die from bonfire- And when he comes down he often doesnt have protection yet. Maybe ill switch him to spellskite. because spellskite has a fat body and can protect other things.

Because i havent got welder anymore i added buried ruin. But im not sure. Maybe ill better trade him for wastelands or ports.

SirTylerGalt

09-08-2012, 05:05 AM

one question about the new godo build that i really find attractive
why no rolling earthquake instead of bonefire ? it's seems better in any situation no ? or is it just a price tag break ?

Plus champion will die from bonfire- And when he comes down he often doesnt have protection yet. Maybe ill switch him to spellskite. because spellskite has a fat body and can protect other things.

I think you both need to re-read Bonfire's card text ;) Bonfire is not at all like Rolling Earthquake. I used to think that, and my jaw hit the floor when I realized what it actually does.

Alex Holland

09-08-2012, 07:48 AM

I think you both need to re-read Bonfire's card text ;) Bonfire is not at all like Rolling Earthquake. I used to think that, and my jaw hit the floor when I realized what it actually does.

Lol i dont have to read it i know what it does. I mixed up te earthquake withe the bonfire.

Im not sure wich one to play.. Earthquake looks better i think because you can control when to play it better. I do like the 3 karns, seems a very controlish build like this.

bruizar

09-08-2012, 07:51 AM

Alex Holland

09-08-2012, 02:26 PM

noobslayer

09-09-2012, 11:47 AM

This is what I am testing at the moment:

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 great furnace
6 mountain

4 grim monolith
4 thran dynamo
2 voltaic key

4 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice

4 chalice of the void

3 metalworker
4 etched champion
4 lodestone golem
4 godo, bandit warlord
2 steel hellkite
2 moltensteel dragon

Some explanations:

No SDT, I simply don't like it.

I squeezed in 4 etched champions, because I feel the deck was really missing out on a low cc threat, and I think at first since I am running more equipments than normal, Etched Champ picks them up like a boss. Magus of the Moon and Phyrexian Revoker are also in contention for this slot. I will be trying to test them all.

4 Godo, because it is a bomb spell, and can create huge swings of life.

4 Flyers, this is just the current configuration.

As far as the equipments go, 4 batterskull and 1 SoFI seems fine for now, but I do plan on testing SoLS as well, since both provide amazing card advantage (the protection is just redundant on Etched Champ). Maybe 3 Batterskull, 1 SoFI, 1 SoLS

I feel like this is a no bullshit list, it knows what it wants to do, and just tries to be as redundant about it as it can.

kingtk3

09-10-2012, 06:26 AM

I won a small tournament yesterday with this list

MAIN
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
4 cavern of souls
3 mountain

2 mox diamond
4 grim monolith
3 metalworker
2 thran dynamo

3 goblin welder
4 chalice of the void
3 trinisphere
3 phyrexian metamorph
4 lodestone golem
2 razormane masticore
2 batterskull
2 godo, bandit warlord
1 wurmcoil engine
2 steel hellkite

SIDE
3 phyrexian revoker
2 duplicant
2 cursed totem
2 karn liberated
1 sword of light and shadow
2 tormod's crypt
2 grafdigger's cage
1 trinisphere

I didn't take notes and this all come from my memory so please bear with me.

Round 1 vs Matteo with Omniscence
Game 1: I lead with tomb->diamond->metalworker go. He cantrips and passes the turn. I play godo fetching batterskull. He plays show and tell: I put into play a masticore and he chooses omniscence, which let him play progenitus. At this point i would have won the race, but a brainstorm finds him burning wish->living wish->emrakul-> GG
Sideboard: -1 godo, -2 hellkite, -2 razormane masticore, -3 goblin welder, +3 phyrexian revoker (for griselbrand), + 2 duplicant, +1 trinisphere, +2 karn
The reasoning is that he shouldn't be able to storm due to lodestone and trini, so he should win with creatures; also, karn is better than any of my creatures
Game 2: sol land->monolith->trinisphere win the game, especially with a wasteland for his ancient tomb
Game 3: I don't remember exactly, but I win with trinisphere, chalice@1, chalice@3 and metalworker in play
1-0-0

Round 2 vs Rocco with Omniscence
Game 1: he starts with a ponder while a mulligan for some hate, which let me play a first turn trinisphere out of a sol land and a diamond. Next turn a lay a lodestone and he scoopes because he didn't have a sol land and was stuck on 2 lands
Sideboard: -1 godo, -2 hellkite, -2 razormane masticore, -3 goblin welder, +3 phyrexian revoker (for griselbrand), + 2 duplicant, +1 trinisphere, +2 karn
Game 2: the god of magic shines on me and I get to play another trinisphere on turn 1 (tomb->monolith). Then I waste a land, port another and eventually find a beater to end the game (I think it was batterskull)
2-0-0

Round 3 vs Pierluigi with Ant
We ID, but since we have plenty of time we play a few games during which I crush his decks: you therapy away my chalice of the void? ok, then I'll land a turn 1 golem :)
2-0-1

Round 4 vs Michele with Miracle
ID
2-0-2

Quartefinals vs Someone (I don't remember the name, sorry) with reanimator
Game 1: don't remember nothing about this match but hitting him hard and fast with multiple beaters
Sideboard: -2 masticore, -2 steel hellkite, -1 wurmcoil, -1 godo, +2 tormod's crypt, + 2 grafdigger's cage, +2 duplicant
Game 2: he begins cantripping, I try to lay a crypt which gets countered then waste his land, then he surgical my waste. We spend a turn playing cantrip and welder and metalworker then I play a chalice@1 which he countered. He then entombs a blazing archon and reanimate putting him on 2 life but safe. I metamorph his archon and we sit looking at each others until I find cage + chalice@3.

Semifinals vs Domenico with sneak and show
Game 1: he wins the dice roll and has a fast hand with a turn 2 or 3 emrakul with protection
Sideboard: -2 thran dynamo, -2 masticore, -2 godo, -2 steel hellikte, +3 phyrexian revoker, +2 duplicant, +2 karn, +1 trinisphere
Game 2: I mull to 4 and keep a miserable hand with wasteland, ancient tomb, metalworker and wurmcoil. I play waste and pass the turn. He plays island and cantrips. I rip metamorph from the library, drop tomb and play metalworker. He plays tomb and cursed totem... I untap, draw and attack. He plays show and tell and I pretend of not knowing what to choose, hoping that he wouldn't show sneak attack: he drops emarkul and I kill him with my metamorph. Then I draw and play a revoker naming sneak attack and procede to win with metalworker betadown!!!
Sideboard: -2 metalworker, +2 thran dynamo (due to cursed totem)
Game 3: he leads with a ponder and I drop a trinisphere. He show and tell agains but his emrakul meets my metamorph and even if he showed sneak attack he didn't have the mana to activate and I have a revoker to shut off his enchantment, which is exactaly what I do on my turn.

Finals vs Ciro with Canadian RUG
Game 1: I lead with ancient tomb -> monolith. He wastes my tomb, then I play a cavern naming golem and drop a lodestone (which he couldn't Fowed), having a wasteland in my hand: he never recover from this.
Sideboard: -1 wurmcoil, +1 trinisphere
Game 2: He play tropical-> delver-> go. I play a chalice@1. He flips delver and starts attacking. I play some monolith, a chalice@2 but the only spell that I find is a Godo which he fowed. Sometimes this deck scoops to itself.
Game 3: He counter my turn 2 trinisphere, than drops a goyf, which I copy with my metamorph thanks to cavern. We stall a couple of turns of cantrips in which I play a chalice@1 until I find a razormane masticore and then start the beats: a couple of turn later I win.

I wanted to test Godo but unfortunately didnt draw him too much and the only time he hit the table I was already winning.

cavern of souls is excellent and I would play it even without red creatures: sometimes you only need a threat to seal the game and having incounterability wins the game right away.

Razormane Masticore: unfortunately it isn't useful agaisnt combo (which I faced during the event), but it's a beast against any creature deck, so I still think it deserves the maindeck

Trinisphere + port/waste wins you games

Mox were almost useful when I draw them, maybe I'll add the third.

The sword in the side was a last time inclusion, I didnt know what to play and a friend suggested the sword.

I think that the key to victory is to find the best proportions betwen threats and mana/acceleration.

What are your thoughts?

Btw, Sorry for the loooooong post ;)

Esper3k

09-10-2012, 09:20 AM

Semifinals vs Domenico with sneak and show
Game 1: he wins the dice roll and has a fast hand with a turn 2 or 3 emrakul with protection
Sideboard: -2 thran dynamo, -2 masticore, -2 godo, -2 steel hellikte, +3 phyrexian revoker, +2 duplicant, +2 karn, +1 trinisphere
Game 2: I mull to 4 and keep a miserable hand with wasteland, ancient tomb, metalworker and wurmcoil. I play waste and pass the turn. He plays island and cantrips. I rip metamorph from the library, drop tomb and play metalworker. He plays tomb and cursed totem... I untap, draw and attack. He plays show and tell and I pretend of not knowing what to choose, hoping that he wouldn't show sneak attack: he drops emarkul and I kill him with my metamorph. Then I draw and play a revoker naming sneak attack and procede to win with metalworker betadown!!!

In the bolded part, did you drop the Metamorph off of the Show & Tell? Because if you did, you can't actually copy Emrakul with it...

SirTylerGalt

09-10-2012, 09:40 AM

In the bolded part, did you drop the Metamorph off of the Show & Tell? Because if you did, you can't actually copy Emrakul with it...

This. It works with Duplicant or Spine of Ish Sah, though, since those have ETB effects.

Metamorph's copy effect is a replacement effect, which is bad with Show & Tell, but good in other situations. One advantage is that it doesn't target, which lets it ignore protection / shroud.

---------------------------

@kingtk3:

I like the inclusion of Cavern of Souls. The Godo build usually needs other red sources for Moltensteel Dragon and Bonfire of the Damned. But I could see a Godo build where the only red card would be Godo itself, skipping Moltensteel Dragon / Bonfire / Sensei's Top. In such a build, it would be ok to lower the mountain count, relying instead on Cavern of Souls + 2/3 mox diamonds + 2-3 mountain + 2-3 ghost quarter (to fetch mountains). Plus, making Godo uncounterable is usually a good thing :)

kingtk3

09-10-2012, 10:18 AM

@Esper3K and SirTylerGalt: I had some doubt about the interaction between S&T and metamorph before the tournament, but the organizer told me it would have worked :mad:
I would have dropped the wurmcoil and cast the metamoprh next turn, so MAYBE things would have gone the same way, but I don't know if opponent had a fow, so this leaves me with a bad taste in mouth

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the mana base, it felt great all day (except when i mulled to 4 for mana flood, screw, screw, but that happens): caverns naming golem or shapeshifter ensure you that you're hate will land, and 3 basic mountains add stability to the whole. And rishadan ports are excellent: I tried to play mishra in that spot but the port is definitely better because with trini in play can cast your opponent out of the game and in general is more synergic with the rest of the deck.

ryO!

09-11-2012, 07:27 AM

I'm still split between Earthquake and Bonfire myself. So far, Bonfire is more of a blowout because of its assymetry, but Rolling Earthquake is more consistent and faster/more relevant against decks like combo elves. I'm just not sure if ANcient Tomb AND Rolling Earthquake is something we can support even though we have batterskulls or/and wurmcoil engine.

I tend to agree with that statement i d rather have REquake for consistency matter. As for the damages things, well Wcoil/Bskull/SoLS are here to stabilize.

Here my current tested list.

MD
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern Of Souls
1 Buried Ruins
3 Mountain
4 Great Furnace

2 Mox Opal
2 Mox Diamond
4 Grim Monolith

2 Rolling Earthquake
3 Tezzeret's Gambit

3 Metalworker
2 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Godo, Bandit Warlord
4 Etched Champion
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

2 Batterskull
1 Sword Of Fire And Ice
1 Sword Of Feast And Famine

SB
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Cursed Totem
1 Sword Of Light And Shadow
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Trinisphere

I d really love to include more room for the 0 hasty & shroud equipement but ...
As for Gambit i love it !

noobslayer

09-13-2012, 03:48 PM

Two questions:

1. How does Godo's second combat phase interact with Vigilance beaters like Batterskull? Do they get to attack twice a turn as well?

2. Can someone come up with a list that we can get updated to the primer of the major creature type categories this deck deals with in regards to Cavern of Souls? As in what falls under construct, golem, artificer, etc.

Thanks!

whienot

09-13-2012, 04:05 PM

Two questions:

1. How does Godo's second combat phase interact with Vigilance beaters like Batterskull? Do they get to attack twice a turn as well?!

This works out exactly as you hope it will. Vigilant/untapped creatures are able to attack again. Voltaic Key also works (untapping artifact creatures to attack again).

There's nothing quite as satisfying as using Karn Liberated's ultimate to restart the game with Trinisphere and Godo.

GoldenCid

09-15-2012, 07:49 PM

I 3 Kuldotha Forgemaster

I d really love to include more room for the 0 hasty & shroud equipement but ...
As for Gambit i love it !

Why should you want master in side???

(nameless one)

09-15-2012, 08:51 PM

This works out exactly as you hope it will. Vigilant/untapped creatures are able to attack again. Voltaic Key also works (untapping artifact creatures to attack again).

There's nothing quite as satisfying as using Karn Liberated's ultimate to restart the game with Trinisphere and Godo.

You do realize that if you (re)start the game with Godo on the field, his "As it enters the battlefield" trigger won't work.

SirTylerGalt

09-15-2012, 09:59 PM

You do realize that if you (re)start the game with Godo on the field, his "As it enters the battlefield" trigger won't work.

http://magiccards.info/nph/en/1.html

"6/1/2011: After the pre-game procedure is complete, but before the new game's first turn, Karn's ability finishes resolving and the cards left in exile are put onto the battlefield. If this causes any triggered abilities to trigger, those abilities are put onto the stack at the beginning of the first upkeep step."

I also like this one:
"6/1/2011: Creatures put onto the battlefield due to Karn's ability will have been under their controller's control continuously since the beginning of the first turn. They can attack and their activated abilities with {T} in the cost can be activated."

T1, attack with Godo + Batterskull for 14 damage. Go.

whiley85

09-16-2012, 01:56 AM

the germ is still sick as it comes into play during the upkeep...
It's "only" 6 dmg 1st turn

Illissius

09-16-2012, 07:23 AM

Definitely the danger of cool things, but it would be really cool to play Godo with some kind of universal haste enabler in play. For the same kind of "oops, swing for 14" reasons. But the only remotely reasonable one I could find was Urabrask and :r::r: is not hot.

SirTylerGalt

09-16-2012, 11:11 AM

Currently testing this Godo build:

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere

2 Mox Diamond
4 Grim Monolith
2 Voltaic Key
2 Simian Spirit Guide

3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Godo, Bandit Warlord

2 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Karn Liberated

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
7 Snow-Covered Mountain

SB: 3 Cursed Totem
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Sword of Light and Shadow
SB: 3 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 Wurmcoil Engine

I chose not to play Bonfire of the Damned, focusing instead on Godo / Magus of the Moon. Since I don't play the miracle card, I can get rid of Sensei's Divining Top. I can also replace 4 Mountains with 4 Cavern of Souls, since my red mana is only spent on *Human* creatures.

Magus is really good, because legacy decks have really greedy manabases, with lots of nonbasic lands. It also lets you play another land without sacrificing a City of Traitors. It even works if your opponent has a Lightning Bolt / StP for it, since you can retain priority and play the land before he gets priority. Since lands don't use the stack, he cannot respond by destroying the Magus (making you sacrific City of Traitors). I ended up with 3 City of Traitors in play earlier today :)

Simian Spirit Guide is awesome, especially against Daze / Spell Pierce. I played against RUG earlier today, he tries to daze my T1 Chalice of the Void, I exile Simian Spirit Guide... GG :)

Alex Holland

09-17-2012, 02:24 PM

zulander

09-17-2012, 09:14 PM

I've been testing this recently and it's been pretty sweet:

2 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker
4 Goblin Welder
2 Voltaic Key

4 Faithless Looting
2 Gamble

3 Lightning Greaves
3 Batterskull
1 Elbrus, the Binding Blade

3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Emperion

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Great Furnace
7 Mountain
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord

SirTylerGalt

09-18-2012, 07:19 AM

@sirtylergalt,

So i know the original mud decks used to crush aggro decks. How is this with the godo build? Can it life without bonfire or other sweepers?

Edit: yall seen the new rtr common land? T:1 or T4: target creature is unblockable! I hope i can find a spot for it

The Godo build I'm currently running might be less effective against aggro. Batterskull and Godo help, but I miss Wurmcoil Engine and Steel Hellkite. I'm also playing a lot of disruptive creatures (Magus of the Moon, Phyrexian Revoker) that don't do as much against aggro.

I'm also considering a Godo build with Bonfire, Magus of the Moon, Sensei's Top, and Goblin Welder. Something similar to the vintage mono-red shop deck in this article: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/23861_Vintage_AvantGarde_Answering_Permanents_And_Why_You_Must.html

I've been reading a lot of vintage shop strategy articles, to see if some ideas could be ported to the legacy build: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/23797_Vintage_AvantGarde_Mishras_Workshop_Strikes_Back.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/19542_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Pounding_Your_Opponent_Into_The_MUD.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/19631_So_Many_Insane_Plays_First_Place_with_MUD.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/19986_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Does_Mishras_Workshop_Suck_The_2010_Vintage_Championship.html

Rogue's Passage is really interesting. Might find a spot in the mono-brown build (MUD Stompy).

vintersorg

09-18-2012, 08:56 PM

I know the hype here is about Godo, but i thought in one card that might help a lot in kuldotha forgemasters, Rings of Brighthearth , with an additional of 2 mana we can put two creatures in the battlefield, why no one uses it? i think it's a good support, not a win condition for the entire deck but an awesome support for winning the game

HoneyT

09-18-2012, 09:25 PM

vintersorg

09-18-2012, 10:00 PM

If you are activating Forgemaster, you're probably winning anyway. Adding a card to the deck that does almost nothing without the Forgemaster in play isn't what you want to be doing. It's just win-more when it works and lose-more the rest of the time cause it doesn't do anything.

But could add consistency!, i had a lot of games where i sac forgemaster and get plowshared right away, with 2 creatures, its different, but these are just my 2 cents

HoneyT

09-18-2012, 10:34 PM

It doesn't add any consistency because it's a completely dead card without an active Forgemaster. It doesn't do anything by itself. By all means, try it. I just think you're going to be disappointed.

noobslayer

09-20-2012, 01:07 PM

The Rings don't do enough to warrant being in this deck. At least in it's current forms, the Rings don't contribute much value, and need to be paired with other cards to gain maximum value. Those are cards this deck shy's away from. All the cards need to offer their own independent value, mainly because we don't run the draw and filtering to reliably hit card combos.

vintersorg

09-24-2012, 11:19 PM

I started with Goblin Welder build, and after a couple of months i switched to mono brown mud and tested again, now i'm trying some hybrid between these two main variants, in my opinion, welder is nuts, but very very fragile, not only because of his 1/1 power but mainly cuz it's easy to mess with opponent's graveyard , thousands of grave hate, and without him i lose some backup, the problem with welder builds is that you are in a rush trying to cheat a robot as soon as possible:
Turn 1: Welder
Turn 2: Faithless looting, and pray to throw a fatty robot in your grave and cheat it

Very nice but fragile, a well played surgical extraction can end with our happiness
My main goal with my Hybrid list is play like mono brown, but you have welder for backup, but don't play it soon...save it for risky situations, and better if you have a lightning greaves in play (mid game), with him i think we can have a better mid-final game in the deck, anyway, that's my decklist:

2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
3 Thran Dynamo
1 Trading Post
3 Trinisphere
3 Voltaic Key

1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Goblin Welder
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine

1 All is Dust

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of traitors
3 Buried Ruins
3 Cavern of souls
2 Dark Steel Citadel
1 Great Furnace
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Mountain

Feedbacks are appreciated, please tell me your opinions :) I really want to improve this deck since it's my favorite.

Larzdk

09-25-2012, 02:43 AM

vintersorg

09-25-2012, 08:46 AM

Zirath

09-25-2012, 09:47 AM

What's Ziraths MUD? never heard of it:eyebrow: trading post didn't worked very well? I saw a lot of builds using it, and I thought it could be a good backup only.

This is my list:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8887&iddeck=64935

It is adapted from the German MUD Stompy lists (courtesy of Fropper). It's a Stompy list focused on an aggro-control plan instead of the more combo-centric builds that get discussed here.

Larzdk

09-25-2012, 09:47 AM

I was able to win the games where I faced gravehate simply by hardcasting instead of trying to cheat stuff into play - It wasn't fun, but it worked out due to forgemasters into Blightsteel.

Zirath posted a build--- *beaten* :D

As for Trading Post, every time I drew it, I wished it was Faithless Looting. The abilities are nice and can probably win games where everything get answered - but it just didn't feel very broken compared to the rest of the decks plan.

I'll report back later tonight or tomorrow with where I'm taking the deck :smile:

Esper3k

09-25-2012, 10:10 AM

@Zirath: Have you considered trying to fit like 2 Crucible of Worlds into the maindeck? It would seem that with Wastelands and Buried Ruins it would be a card you'd want to see?

(nameless one)

09-25-2012, 10:23 AM

Hey Vinter,

I played a brew I called "Faithless Forgemaster" a couple of times (ended in the money in both tourneys I took it to). It's rather similar.

For reference:

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Duplicant
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Goblin Welder
4 Faithless Looting
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Voltaic Key
1 Mindslaver
2 Mox Opal
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

- I tried adding Trading post and it just didn't work out very well. I would rather be doing something broken than durdling around with it.
- It ran straight over RUG, BUG and several SFM decks, since they couldn't answer all the angels of attack that the deck utilizes - It takes some luck though, since the deck can have very mediocre draws. Lost terribly to Merfolk who had the "vial, wasteland, fow fow" start both games too, so the mana might need some work.

I'll be taking Ziraths MUD build to a local tourney tonight instead of Faithless/Welder to see what I like better. I'm not sold on the Godo build at the moment, but I did pick up 4 for $2 total just in case...

I've also tried using Trading Post but its too slow for combo-ish builds. The reason why I wanted to do this is so I can use both Welder and Chalice in the same build (courtesy of Cavern of Souls). But in return (based on my list) you also lose the key components of the combo builds such as Faithless Looting and Sensei's Divining Top.

As for your general build, I think you have too many one-ofs. While my heart jumps for joy whenever I activate a Forgemaster (and successfully take over the board with it), I also don't like depending on it. This is the reason why on my list, I cut the Forgemasters to three and I have minimal specialty targets.

But didn't you suffer against grave-hate? it's very fragile, when I was playing with welder, I got a surgical extraction right in my face, but it's funny how your matchups are the opposite of mine, I got awesome results against merfolks (with wasteland, fow fow) but terrible against RUG, never tested BUG but I think it's a bad matchup for me.

What's Ziraths MUD? never heard of it:eyebrow: trading post didn't worked very well? I saw a lot of builds using it, and I thought it could be a good backup only.

I'm not convinced about Godo neither, time will tell, seems promising but depends a lot in red mana and I don't like an artifact deck with more 'non-artifact' things in it
I'll wait your report ^^ thks

I don't really know much decks that have Surgical Extractions on the main. Usually, I side out the "combo" package (Welder, Faithless, SDTop) for the "stompy" package (Chalice, Trinisphere, whatever sideboard material you need). This makes the opponents think twice on whether they should side in just artifact hate or artifact and grave hate (which hopefully makes their list saturated)

I might consider Trading Post as a sideboard material if I am siding in the Stompy package. It does still provide flexibility.

As for Godo, I just never had extensive time to playtest it (I am more working on my Parfait list at the moment).

@Zirath: Have you considered trying to fit like 2 Crucible of Worlds into the maindeck? It would seem that with Wastelands and Buried Ruins it would be a card you'd want to see?

I think Zirath only actually uses their abilities when he needs to. This is why Crucible doesn't really help him based from the reports hes posted. He doesn't really rely on Crucible Waste-lock so he doesn't need to do so.

Also, Crucible in multiples on the field without a means to abuse it (such as being a fodder for Smokestacks/Tangle Wire) doesn't really help.

Zirath

09-25-2012, 11:11 AM

I think Zirath only actually uses their abilities when he needs to. This is why Crucible doesn't really help him based from the reports hes posted. He doesn't really rely on Crucible Waste-lock so he doesn't need to do so.

Also, Crucible in multiples on the field without a means to abuse it (such as being a fodder for Smokestacks/Tangle Wire) doesn't really help.

This is exactly it. Crucible is only good against the fair decks. You almost never need it in your MD.

dillonkbase

09-25-2012, 06:09 PM

Had an issue with goblins an merfolk last night and am trying to drum up some solutions. I think the onke that makes sense to me the most is silent arbiter .

For one it costs 4 mana, it is better than whip flare(2 dmg isn't enough with lords around), it better than firespout(3 dmg kills lodestone and godo), and its better than bonfire(I don't play metalworker so I can't make enough mana to use it at will).

How does that logic sound? Any other suggestions(engineered explosives is my other thought)

My list (in case that helps)

4 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 mox opal
3 su-chi
2 batterskull
2 goblin welder
4 chalice of the void
4 tangle wire
4 lodestone golem
2 wurmcoil engine
2 Godo bandit warlord
4 Grim Monolith
2 crucible of worlds
3 mox diamond
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 cavern of souls
1 mountain
4 darksteel citadel
1 great furnace
1 crystal vein

SB
4 silent arbiter Was leyline of the void but arbiter is actually good vs dredge(at least in my head)
1 trinisphere or 1 sword of fire and ice?
4 cursed totem * place holder could be something else
4 thorn of amethyst
2 duplicant *place holder could be something else

Esper3k

09-25-2012, 06:14 PM

This is exactly it. Crucible is only good against the fair decks. You almost never need it in your MD.

Thanks for the info. Are you still playing the 2x Platinum Emperions in the main? Just wondering, but what matchups are they there for? I assume they're pretty good against aggro?

SirTylerGalt

09-25-2012, 07:37 PM

Masticore and Razormane Masticore are great against creature decks. Plus, they combo with welder (discard artifact, weld it out).

Classical Masticore is better when you play Metalworker, because you can make tons of mana, play Masticore, and wipe the board.

Also, I don't like Su-Chi that much.

I like Metalworker in the Godo List, because they have to answer it immediately if they don't want you to get crazy amounts of mana. Which uses their removal. You can also equip it with a Sword of Fire and Ice or a Batterskull in the later turns.

Zirath

09-25-2012, 09:36 PM

Thanks for the info. Are you still playing the 2x Platinum Emperions in the main? Just wondering, but what matchups are they there for? I assume they're pretty good against aggro?

Sorta. My list is about to be changed with the current changes in the metagame. The fall of Maverick and the re-rising of RUG is forcing me to change my list around. My current thoughts are to move into some Batterskulls and Defense Grids in the board. If I were to give a list right now, my main deck would be identical and my sideboard would be:

4 Trinisphere
2 Cursed Totem
2 Defense Grid
1 All is Dust
1 Karn Liberated
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Batterskull

dillonkbase

09-26-2012, 12:33 AM

Also, I don't like Su-Chi that much.

I think that one or two six drops are worth while, both hellkite and the wurm are very powerful, but the strength of the deck is really in dropping 4 drops turn 2, lodestone golem, meta morph, and some other beater at 3 or 4 mana would be ideal. I might try su chi soon, its a good beater and ramps with welder into other 4 drops, making it a good replacement for metalworker. A 4/4 is pretty good in a world of delvers and bolts.

bonus: if it dies in combat and you have a hellkite, it can pay for that too.

dbl bonus: or untap the monolith you used to cast it.

I like Metalworker in the Godo List, because they have to answer it immediately if they don't want you to get crazy amounts of mana.

I'm not a fan of worker, I don't want to run the pricey threats it allows so it ins't really needed.

What do you think about silent arbiter.

Larzdk

09-26-2012, 03:03 AM

I like the arbiter, but I don't think there's much reason to run him at the moment (not locally at least), since the decks I face rarely attack with more than one dude either way. It does buy a lot of time against the hyperaggressive decks though.

As for last night, the MUD deck utterly failed on me - I lost to RUG in the first round, a Show'n'Tell'd Progenitus in the second by a Hypergenesis deck (I put down Karn, since I was thinking he was going for Emrakul) - just couldn't get there. I played out the remaining rounds to a 3-3 finish, but was very underwhelmed in the end. The list is solid, but I think I'll prefer to be welding in robots in the future.

kingtk3

09-26-2012, 07:52 AM

@dillonkbase: Silent Arbiter looks interesting, but I can see a problem with it: it doesn't pose a threat, so you have to draw and cast another spell in order to win the game.
I think we have to consider the philosophy of the deck, which I believe is to close the game as soon as possible, since the more land the opponent drops, the less our prison works (lodestone/trinisphere/waste/amethist/ports) and our creatures become weaker.
I don't mean that the deck is not good in mid or long range (we have plenty of threats like wurmcoil, godo or hellkite), but it's best in the early game when our prison elements forces the opponent to play in mid/long game.
From this point of view I "think", but maybe is more correct "feel" (not having tested arbiter), that Razormane Masticore is better since it stops aggro and provides a reasonable clock.

Here's (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=671458&viewfull=1#post671458) my list for reference.

@SirTylerGalt: I think that razormane is superior to the old masticore because the latter is too mana intensive, has a weaker body and you can't expect to produce consistently 6+mana (equivalent to a razormane bolt) with metalworker while discarding a card per turn and without means to draw.
Also, razormane works under cursed totem.

Larzdk

09-26-2012, 08:01 AM

The Masticore doesn't do much against 20 goblin tokens out of storm though - Both have their merits, I would say, but I'm not running either as my metagame is mostly aggro-control and all kinds of Emrakuls apparently.

HoneyT

09-26-2012, 09:23 AM

@dillonkbase:

I used to use Silent Arbiter in a very old version of MUD. He's pretty solid against the decks like Fish and Goblins. He buys you plenty of time to find a dude to win with. That being said, newer, and better cards exist now. If you have a problem with those decks, play more Batterskulls. Play more Wurmcoil Engines. Don't play Silent Arbiter.

@The people suggesting Masticores of all flavors

Neither of them are very good. At all. This deck gets hellbent pretty quickly and many times won't be able to keep a card to discard on upkeep

dillonkbase

09-26-2012, 10:27 AM

I understand the critique of arbiter, that batterskull or wurmcoil can also race vs aggressive decks, however arbiter lets you come from behind, and do so with less mana. If you have an arbiter and a Godo equipped with SOFI or batterskull or a wurm, the tribes can't really beat you.

And at 4 mana it seems quick enough to work against dredge too?

noobslayer

09-26-2012, 02:18 PM

Well, until we get some synergistic engine, that isn't slow as balls, and lacking decent utility, I just don't think this deck is the shell to make Welder succeed. It's too slow, too vulnerable, and just not threatening enough. That and it promotes lightning greaves and other sub optimal card choices. I'm just not a fan after a bunch of testing with him, so I will keep testing the Godo builds.

kingtk3

09-26-2012, 04:52 PM

@The people suggesting Masticores of all flavors

Neither of them are very good. At all. This deck gets hellbent pretty quickly and many times won't be able to keep a card to discard on upkeep

I agree with you that we don't have much cards in hand when the masticore resolves and sometimes you cannot afford to play it, but once you reach 5 mana you can afford to discard a mana source, and when you draw a bigger threat you can simply stop paying the upkeep.
In the meanwhile razormane covers an important role in the deck:
1) together with batterskull it's 5 mana cost and fits perfectly in curve
2) can kill opposing problematic creatures like Thalia, Confidant, Delver or Gaddock, or can alter the combat dynamics bolting to bigger creatures, and keeps in check tribal
3) it's a threat itself

@Noobslayer: After playing with welder a lot (basically it was in all my MUD lists) I've come to the same conclusion and I'm looking for a replacement. Now I'm trying the third Godo, a SoFI and the third Dynamo in its stead. What do you think?

noobslayer

09-26-2012, 05:40 PM

@ Kingtk3
My current list is the same one from two pages ago:

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 great furnace
6 mountain

4 grim monolith
4 thran dynamo
2 voltaic key

4 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice

4 chalice of the void

3 metalworker
4 etched champion
4 lodestone golem
4 godo, bandit warlord
2 steel hellkite
2 moltensteel dragon

I'm running full sets of as many things as I can just for consistency. The only changes I'd make as of right now are:

-1 Moltensteel, + 1 Steelhellkite (Hellkite is just better, Molten has been alright, but I think I'd rather just have the additional control aspect, and I still want to maintain four flyers for equipment/moat purposes.

-1 Batterskull, +1 Sword of Light and Shadow (I got four Godo's to find my batterskulls, and SoLS is great in attrition wars you find yourself commonly losing)

Everything else has been mostly pulling its weight, and I haven't tweaked around with the mana base too much yet. What's your current list looking like? The changes you listed for the 3 slots welder was taking up look to be in a good direction and support each other nicely.

kingtk3

09-26-2012, 07:04 PM

noobslayer

09-26-2012, 07:17 PM

Don't you feel that "only" 4 golems and 4 chalice are too little of disruption? It's a question that bumps often in my head since here I saw almost nowone, apart myself, with trinisphere/rishadan maindeck.

Sort of. I have wastelands when I do need them, and I'd have crucible in the board. And I've got a lot of life gain to create lopsided combat phases. Plus Hellkite is amazingly retarded board control. I do keep trinisphere in the board, but my main game plan is to lay a threat and go sideways, so I only have so much room for disruption. I think tangle wire is garbage, and most other disruption slows me down.

I also have yet to test Magus of the Moon and Phyrexian Revoker, and those guys are amazing disruption too.

kingtk3

09-27-2012, 04:47 AM

I'm not very sold on tangle wire too, we don't have mishra workshops to support it. Personally I cut some mana source in order to mainboard trinisphere, but it's personale preference.
I feel, however, that the best disruption that we should have in the 75 are Lodestone, Chalice, Wasteland, Trinisphere, Phyrexian Revoker, Rishdan Port and Cursed Totem.

Larzdk

09-27-2012, 06:53 AM

On another note, how do you feel this deck will fare once RtR hits? Abrubt Decay might show up in big numbers in BUG - which might slow our acceleration down quite a lot, and if RIP/Helm becomes a deck, we might have to deal with an enchantment driven combo deck (which I think we might interact quite poorly with if they shut down Hellkite with Forcefield) - the card in itself might totally invalidate Welder - and if Helm makes it big, Null Rods might start showing up in bigger numbers.. Thoughts?

SirTylerGalt

09-27-2012, 07:40 AM

My current Godo aggro build:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Voltaic Key

2 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Godo, Bandit Warlord
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Etched Champion
1 Moltensteel Dragon
1 Steel Hellkite

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
6 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls

SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Cursed Totem
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 2 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 2 Masticore

Simian Spirit Guide is really good. It accelerates early threats / disruption, protects against Daze, and can be played as a creature if you need more threats. I won a game on the back of a Simian Spirit Guide equipped with a SoLaS.

The deck has a lot of small creatures (2/2, 2/1, 1/2) which become real threats with equipment.

Lodestone Golem, Chalice of the Void, Magus of the Moon, and Phyrexian Revoker provide the needed disruption.

-----------------

In the Forgemaster build, I'm considering 1 Null Brooch in the SB as a tech against U/W Miracles. Terminus --> tap Forgemaster, tutor Null Brooch, counter Terminus, untap Null Brooch with Voltaic Key, counter another spell.

kingtk3

09-27-2012, 08:06 AM

@SirTylerGalt: I'm not a big fun of MUD with little creatures and equipments, I'd play Death and Taxes in that case.
That said, your deck contains only 29 artifacts which seem few to properly use metalworker: maybe you can split 2/2 with Thran Dynamo?

@Larzdk: I don't know if RIP/Helm will become a combo deck. I mean, the combo existed for years with Leyline but noone played it.
Surely with RIP it's easier to assemble and RIP itself is better than a drawn leyline, but I think that if these cards will be played it would be in a control shell. Against control we have a favorable matchup with all our disruption (especially revoker on helm) and acceleration, so I don't think we should suffer too much. Anyway some answers to enchantments are ratchet bomb and ward of bones.
Abrupt decay, instead, can become a problem since hits all our disruption apart the golems and the lands, and can kill a Chalice@2 too!!! Maybe running more disruption will be the answer...

(nameless one)

09-27-2012, 08:21 AM

Had an issue with goblins an merfolk last night and am trying to drum up some solutions. I think the onke that makes sense to me the most is silent arbiter .

What about Steel Hellkite? It bombs goblin tokens (Krenko, Mob Boss can be a beating and it owns merfolk since most of their guys are either 1 and 2 cc.

On another note, how do you feel this deck will fare once RtR hits? Abrubt Decay might show up in big numbers in BUG - which might slow our acceleration down quite a lot, and if RIP/Helm becomes a deck, we might have to deal with an enchantment driven combo deck (which I think we might interact quite poorly with if they shut down Hellkite with Forcefield) - the card in itself might totally invalidate Welder - and if Helm makes it big, Null Rods might start showing up in bigger numbers.. Thoughts?

Abrupt Decay only hits a certain number of permanents the deck has. most of its threats have higher than 3cc. Sure it will slow you're acceleration but as long as you're playing this lands (especially the Sol Lands), you should be fine.

I am actually more worried about discard in tandem with Abrupt Decay.

On RIP/Helm combo, you can always name Helm of Obedience to Phyrexian Revoker to slow that combo down. Maybe enough time to get Hellkite to bomb the 2cc enchantment?

Also, All is Dust seems like a great catch all answer to all the issues above.

Esper3k

09-27-2012, 08:52 AM

@SirTylerGalt: You probably want a playset of Great Furnaces in there to help with Metalworker and Etched Champion Metalcraft as well.

SirTylerGalt

09-27-2012, 09:28 AM

@SirTylerGalt: You probably want a playset of Great Furnaces in there to help with Metalworker and Etched Champion Metalcraft as well.

@Esper3k:

Good idea. I usually avoid Great Furnaces because it is affected by Wasteland / Pulverize / Null Rod, but changing a few Mountains for Great Furnaces makes sense in this deck. And opponent Wastelands have better targets anyway.

Larzdk

09-27-2012, 09:32 AM

Zirath

09-27-2012, 09:49 AM

Yeah, I don't know - time will tell. Energy field can just be a rather huge annoyance, if they aren't putting nonbasics down for us to waste. I'm going to play MUD next tuesday too, just can't really decide if I should give Zirath's build another go, or to bring my Welders.

It takes a lot of time to get comfortable with MUD Stompy. I had to play it for a few months before I saw any positive results. You make an enormous number of mistakes that don't seem like mistakes.

Larzdk

09-27-2012, 09:55 AM

I know, and I caught quite a few of them as I played. For example, I lost to a RUG Hypergenesis deck with 2 Chalices in my starting hand, because I had no idea what plan he was on until after the Fatties hit the board :eek:

(nameless one)

09-27-2012, 10:11 AM

Larzdk

09-27-2012, 10:29 AM

Yeah, that's true - Faithless Looting did let me keep some pretty awkward hands compared to what's workable with the pure stompy build. I guess I'm just too inexperienced with the deck to really get value out of Chalices and the other tax-effects, compared to the "easier" way of just blowing people out with Forgemaster/Welder.

Zirath

09-27-2012, 12:29 PM

I think its crucial to figure out your line of play starting with your starting seven when it comes to Zirath's build as the deck does have terrible topdecks. Though arguably, his build has better stability when it comes to mid-late game because it has more stable acceleration.

Also, Buried Ruin helps this cause.

Actually, I think my top decks are fine (compared to other lists). Karn is considerably more powerful than Blightsteel Colossus. Poor top decks is part of the nature of the midrange-combo deck.

However, this is true that you need to plan out your game with your starting seven. If you look at your hand you do not see a clear set of lines keeping in mind all the plays your opponent could be making, you should consider mulliganing.

(nameless one)

09-27-2012, 12:48 PM

Actually, I think my top decks are fine (compared to other lists). Karn is considerably more powerful than Blightsteel Colossus. Poor top decks is part of the nature of the midrange-combo deck.

However, this is true that you need to plan out your game with your starting seven. If you look at your hand you do not see a clear set of lines keeping in mind all the plays your opponent could be making, you should consider mulliganing.

I guess I just need to learn to play the Stompy lists more efficiently.

Zirath, which matchups do you usually consider Karn to be effective. Also, without siding-in, which matchups can you win easily?

noobslayer

09-27-2012, 01:22 PM

By the way, I mentioned this before, but it bears mentioning again, we really should compile a list for the primer of all the creature type categories for Cavern of Souls.

Greenpoe

09-27-2012, 02:12 PM

By the way, I mentioned this before, but it bears mentioning again, we really should compile a list for the primer of all the creature type categories for Cavern of Souls.

Here's a basic list of some of the major categories
Construct: Kuldotha Forgemaster, Metalworker, Myr Battlesphere, Silent Arbiter, Steel Overseer, Su-Chi, Triskelion
Human: Godo, Magus of the Moon
Golem: Lodestone Golem, Blightsteel Colossus, Karn, Precursor Golem, Sundering Titan, Platinum Emperion
Dragon: Steel Hellkite, MOltensteel Dragon
Shapeshifter: Duplicant, Phyrexian Metamorph

(nameless one)

09-27-2012, 02:35 PM

Here's a basic list of some of the major categories
Construct: Kuldotha Forgemaster, Metalworker, Myr Battlesphere, Silent Arbiter, Steel Overseer, Su-Chi, Triskelion
Human: Godo, Magus of the Moon
Golem: Lodestone Golem, Blightsteel Colossus, Karn, Precursor Golem, Sundering Titan, Platinum Emperion
Dragon: Steel Hellkite, MOltensteel Dragon
Shapeshifter: Duplicant, Phyrexian Metamorph

Don't forget Artificer: Goblin Welder, Master Transmuter. Though, its not like the second one sees play :P

Zirath

09-27-2012, 02:58 PM

I guess I just need to learn to play the Stompy lists more efficiently.

Zirath, which matchups do you usually consider Karn to be effective. Also, without siding-in, which matchups can you win easily?

Karn is strong in against Jace Decks, Slower Combo decks (ANT/TES/DD/Tide/SnT) and Midrange/Creature based aggro (Maverick/Bant/Junk). He is bad against Burn decks, Fast combo decks (Belcher/SI) and Swarm decks (Essentially all the tribal).

Which match ups can I win easily without boarding? That's a hard question. Your weak match ups game 1 are definitely RUG and UR Burn (and to a lesser extent Affinity). If they can establish an aggressive start, you can be completely crushed.

RUG is more difficult because of the switch to Pierce, which allows them to attack Grim Monolith/Dynamo/Chalice more aggressively. Daze can be played around really easily but Pierce can't, which is unfortunate because they do not produce card disadvantage.

UR Burn is a similar situation. In addition, Price of Progress is a house against us.

For Affinity, it depends on their hand. If I can stick an Emperion or Wurmcoil before Cranial Plating comes down, I can usually stop it. Karn and Revoker are both very important here. Affinity heavily depends on the draws; if they land early Plating, it's usually game if I don't have a turn 2 hand.

The deck is very difficult to play well. Some of the hands I've kept that win games are baffling to describe (2 x Thran Dynamo, 2 x Port, Mishra's Factory, Buried Ruin, Ancient Tomb against Miracles). You have to play a couple turns ahead of your opponent in order to win a lot of your games. This is a ramp deck after all and you need to have enough mana to win the game.

L10

09-27-2012, 03:51 PM

Don't forget Artificer: Goblin Welder, Master Transmuter. Though, its not like the second one sees play :P

I am still working on a blue build with Master Transmuter and Kuldotha Forgemaster. Now I have two ways to cheat in fatties like Blightsteel Colossus or Inkwell Leviathan (StoneBlade killer). The problem with Master Transmuter she is that she is pretty vulnerable to removal. Lightning Greaves is pretty much needed, and giving her haste is great. She had won me some games by cheating Blightsteel Colossus, Inkwell Leviathan, and Sphinx of the Steel Wind; stuff that are not accessible in MUD Stompy. Much like Goblin Lackey, she makes blue mages rage if they can't find a removal spell. She is always useful because as long as you have an artifact at hand, she can protect something in the field; especially good if that artifact at hand is Spine of Ish Sah.

Splashing blue does give me Spellskite (for less pain) and Academy Ruins, which are also great.

Overall, I felt it had less consistency than when I played mono-brown MUD Stompy. Rishadan Port is really good in the early games when I try to set up and establish board position, as well as the late game when I shut my opponent down. A Thran Dynamo and a couple Ports goes a long way. Losing it to islands does not seem the right line of play. This is the main reason why I have not converted to Godo yet. MUD Stompy has been spectacular for me so far and I don't really see the need to lose utility lands for color fixers when I do not need to.

noobslayer

09-27-2012, 04:01 PM

I think the one slot that is uncontestable if you are running way to recurr and cheat big guys into play is Sundering Titan. He is such a house, that one cycle of his abilities typically seals any game for you. No need for a combat phase.

L10

09-27-2012, 04:15 PM

Yup. I have two Sundering Titans in my Transmuter list for that reason. He pretty much wins the game if you cycle him twice against a double or triple colored deck. Cycle between him and Spine of Ish Sah is devastating. I just forgot to list him. Though he is accessible to MUD Stompy, MUD Stompy can't abuse him like Transmuter. Also, he is not even needed in MUD Stompy to be honest. I don't even have him in my 75.

Larzdk

09-28-2012, 03:19 AM

"You have to play a couple turns ahead of your opponent in order to win a lot of your games."

This is one of the most important things to be successful at magic, no matter what deck you play. If you're bad at this, work on it. Heavily. You'll see results pretty fast.
(Disclaimer: I've played since Revised, and I still get caught off-guard often, especially in Legacy).

On that note I've decided to give the deck another go, with an additional Metalworker maindeck and a more midrange-hating sideboard.

Zirath

09-28-2012, 09:36 AM

HoneyT

09-28-2012, 10:00 AM

You get punished with this deck way more often than you do with most of the other decks for not doing that.

Fact. Sequencing is key with these kinds of decks. You don't get to dig your way out with Brainstorms and Green Sun's Zeniths.

L10

09-28-2012, 12:36 PM

Congrats to Chris Cornwell-Shiel, getting 14th out of 351 players this weekend at SCG Atlanta. He has a Welder Kuldotha build.

//Lands [21]
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
3 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland

//Creatures [16]
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker

//Artifacts [23]
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Mox Opal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Trinisphere
3 Voltaic Key
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith

//Sideboard
1 Contagion Engine
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
1 Duplicant
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Wurmcoil Engine

Contagion Engine is a hilarious Kuldotha target vs. creature decks.

noobslayer

09-28-2012, 12:46 PM

After some testing last night, I think I may go:
-2 Moltensteel Dragon
-1 Godo
-1 Etched Champion

+1 Steel Hellkite
+3 Phyrexian Revoker

Thoughts? Also, after doing some play testing with my brother, I found the reanimator match-up is very swingy. He usually has the advantage, but if I mull aggressively for Chalice it brings it closer to an even race. Problem is it slows him down, doesn't stop him outright (although one game I had turn 1 chalice @ 1, turn 2 chalice @ 2 and he had to scoop from there).

(nameless one)

09-28-2012, 02:39 PM

noobslayer

09-28-2012, 02:46 PM

Phyrexian Revoker is awesome as it can shut down alot of things such as Jace, the Mindsculptor and AEther Vial.

I think Steel Hellkite is okay for board control. Not as good as Wurmcoil, but it holds itself. Its only downfall is that its only a 5/5 (Yes, I am greedy).

I like how you say only when he is the biggest creature in my list. Wurmcoils though are going to be in my board, likely as a 2-of. Also, what tweaks do you think are in order for my mana base if I wanted to squeeze Cavern of Souls/Rishadan Port (as well any random techy jank land singletons)?

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
6 Mountain

(nameless one)

09-28-2012, 05:08 PM

It depends on what you use the red mana for. What do you use it for?

Koby

09-28-2012, 05:34 PM

The use of red gives you Goblin Welder, Faithless Looting, and Blood Moon. Are these sufficiently powerful enough to skew the manabase from mana disruption (Rishadan Port)?

Esper3k

09-28-2012, 06:00 PM

You know, some of these red versions are almost starting to look like a hybrid of Dragon Stompy and MUD.

(nameless one)

09-28-2012, 06:05 PM

But not everyone runs Faithless Looting and Blood Moon. He could still be running Godo and Welder. He could be running Solemn Simulacrum which explains the high density of basic lands.

Koby

09-28-2012, 06:17 PM

Zirath

09-28-2012, 11:57 PM

HoneyT

09-29-2012, 01:22 PM

My latest Godo list for those still interested in that particular version:

Lands:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
2 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Creatures:

3 Etched Champion
4 Godo, Bandit Warlord
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Metalworker
2 Sundering Titan

Spells:

3 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Diamond
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Thran Dynamo
3 Voltaic Key

Sideboard:

2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Cursed Totem
1 Karn Liberated
3 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Trinishphere
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Larzdk

10-01-2012, 02:57 AM

How does the Godo version fare against Aggro decks? It seem like missing out on Wurmcoils and Hellkites really hurts that matchup. The size of Etched Champions don't play that well on the d, imo. And why are you running Spines over extra Karns - just playing around Needle-effects/your own cost increases?

HoneyT

10-01-2012, 08:55 AM

It's still good against aggro. Though if I was more worried about that, the Sundering Titans would be Steel Hellkites. Godo into Batterskull is often better than Wurmcoil Engine. Etched Champion wears equipment like a boss and holds the ground down very well. Post board Jitte also obviously tears the aggro decks up.

Spines over extra Karns because you can put in into play off a Show and Tell.

noobslayer

10-01-2012, 05:33 PM

@ Nameless One: The red in my MD is solely for Godo at the moment, and potentially some Magus/Blood Moon in the board.

(nameless one)

10-01-2012, 07:38 PM

@ Nameless One: The red in my MD is solely for Godo at the moment, and potentially some Magus/Blood Moon in the board.

I would remove Great Furnace for Cavern of Souls (naming Human for Godo and Magus if you have to), assuming that you aren't running Metalworker like the other Godo builds. Also, three Ports should be good in place of your Mountains

noobslayer

10-02-2012, 04:19 PM

Unlike the other Godo builds I am still running metalworker. I'm thinking of going to 3 Godo in the main, and that's really my only red card. So I don't think I need 10 red sources. Maybe 4 Great Furnace, 3 Cavern of Souls, 1 Mountain?

(nameless one)

10-02-2012, 05:13 PM

That seems reasonable then

HoneyT

10-02-2012, 05:29 PM

@noobslayer

Check out my Godo build from a few posts ago. The manabase has been excellent for me.

noobslayer

10-02-2012, 08:28 PM

Have you ever felt inclined to fit in Cavern or Port in that mana base?

HoneyT

10-02-2012, 11:08 PM

Have you ever felt inclined to fit in Cavern or Port in that mana base?

Cavern is in there. I've considered Port, we need to make sure we have enough red sources for Godo though, so I don't see it in this particular version.

kingtk3

10-04-2012, 08:34 AM

My question was more in abstract for the Moon / MUD archetype rather than noobslayer's specific build. I think that Chalice of the Void is in great metagame position right now, and Blood Moon doesn't hurt either. I'm not entirely sold on Metalworker + infinite 6 drops, because frankly, everyone can deal with a 1/2 right now.

Frankly, I've been thinking CoV owns the format for the last 6 months: it singlehandley shuts so many decks (burn, UR Delver, combo, RUG just for naming a few), and it helps against many others, that is too powerfull to pass it by.
I'm not too excited about Moon efects though, since they are mostly effective against decks which we are already good against and we suffer the effect too.

While Metalworker + 6 or more CC drops are tempting I definitely disagree on building a deck based on this strategy because is too fragile. I think (and I'm sure there are many others) that is better to have some 4 or 5 CC drops that can be easily played with lands while our disruption is still effective, instead of having them clogged in our hands.

The definition of MUD, at least in my thoughts, is of a deck that plays mid range threats during the early game while delaying opponent's early game to the mid game.

Dedicating on the big threats (like Forgemaster comboesque builds) may be not effective due to the efficient removals of the format, whilst focusing on disruption can leave us without a quick way to win the game because we cannot produce a lock, but a disruption that can be overcome simply by a constant land drop.

I believe the key is to hamper our opponent's progression (be it on board or hand) WHILE dropping a clock to win the game before he can recover.

Having this in mind I think the core of the deck is

4 grim monolith
4 chalice of the void
4 lodestone golem
4 wasteland
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors

This is the backbone, the cards that will always be in every Legacy list since they provide acceleration, disruption and threat. All the rest are cards we have to add in order to reach 60 count; so, in order to still be effective, we are bound to add some other form of acceleration (like metaworker, thran dynamo or moxes), disruption (like rishadan ports, trinisphere, revoker or crucible for wastelock) and threat (godo, steel hellkite, wurmcoil... basically the more efficient the better).

Right now my build is the following and, although I think is far from perfect, it may be a starting point.

MAIN
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
4 cavern of souls
3 mountain

2 mox diamond
4 grim monolith
3 metalworker
3 thran dynamo

4 chalice of the void
3 trinisphere
3 phyrexian metamorph
4 lodestone golem
2 razormane masticore
2 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice
3 godo, bandit warlord
1 wurmcoil engine
2 steel hellkite

SIDE
3 phyrexian revoker
2 duplicant
2 cursed totem
2 karn liberated
1 sword of light and shadow
2 tormod's crypt
2 grafdigger's cage
1 trinisphere

Greetings

dillonkbase

10-04-2012, 07:02 PM

Having this in mind I think the core of the deck is

4 grim monolith
4 chalice of the void
4 lodestone golem
4 wasteland
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors

Greetings

Agree on the core...

However

Trinisphere and Lodestone aren't the best playmates any thoughts on using tanglewire and welder instead?

also

Masticore and Godo are poor targets for metamorph, godo being legendary and masticore being hard to maintain, thoughts on using hellkite or wurmcoil instead? Or replacing metamorph?

Separately, I have found that mox's (diamond and opal) are fine mana sources if you top out at 6 mana (particularly if you need red for godo) and so the motivation for running thran dynamo should be Karn Liberated, and other larger spells. Have others found this to be the case? How have you decided whether to run Opals, Diamonds, or Dynamo's and in what proportions.

Greenpoe

10-05-2012, 12:56 PM

Coalition Relic is another alternative to Thran Dynamo, makes up to 2 mana instead of 3 and makes colored mana, making it good for the red builds.

kingtk3

10-06-2012, 10:41 AM

Agree on the core...

However

Trinisphere and Lodestone aren't the best playmates any thoughts on using tanglewire and welder instead?

Is true that Lodestone and Trini aren't synergic, but they work well even alone: I think about trinisphere as golem 5-7 for cards with CC between 0-2.

I think that Tanglewire is definitely viable but needs a build to exploit it fully. First things that come into mind are: rishadan port, goblin welder, prototype portal, mishra helix. However I didn't tested tanglewire (I don't have much time), so if someone can post his own experiences I'd be grateful.

Goblin welder I have tested though, and I have to say that I don't feel it's necessary anymore:
- if it's used to cheat big threats into play the main enablers (faithless looting or sensei's divining top + reforge the soul) are blocked by Chalice of the Void, and I advise against not playing the latter
- if it's used as a way to beat permission Cavern of souls does it better now

also

Masticore and Godo are poor targets for metamorph, godo being legendary and masticore being hard to maintain, thoughts on using hellkite or wurmcoil instead? Or replacing metamorph?

True. But while I've never copied Godo or Masticore, it never happened that I had metamorph in hand without any good target to copy. In my mind Phyrexian Metamorph is important because it's a 3CC threat that keep smooth the mana curve: I don't want my hand to be clogged by 6CC drops, I want something that I can play early without acceleration. Moreover it can be used to kill opposing legend which, right now, is very good. Plus copying an early golem it's almost always GG.

Masticore is something that I'm testing and, while it's very good against creature decks, it' almost ever the first thing I side out in the other matches. In fact it would be great to find another 4 or 5CC drop to test in its place: any suggestion?

With all the positive feedback that's receiving in the forum, I wanted to test Godo (since I already played a couple of batterskull) which, of course, takes the spot of wurmcoil. Unfortunately I haven't draw him too mcuh and I still don't have understood if it's better than wurmcoil, so I added the third and the Sofi in the main and I'll keep testing. Your observation regarding the metamorph could be correct but I still don't have the basis to answer right now

Separately, I have found that mox's (diamond and opal) are fine mana sources if you top out at 6 mana (particularly if you need red for godo) and so the motivation for running thran dynamo should be Karn Liberated, and other larger spells. Have others found this to be the case? How have you decided whether to run Opals, Diamonds, or Dynamo's and in what proportions.

I cannot explain well my motivations because it's more of a feeling: I need Moxes for Red, but also to accelerate into Cov or Trini (in this way I consider them like sol-land number 9-10), so since I don't play artifact lands or 1 drops Opal are out of question for me. Moreover I don't want to draw too many Diamonds because of the card disadvantage.
3 Metalworker because I don't want to relay too much on them
3 Dynamo: I added the third recently with the third Godo, since I thought that with another 6CC drop I would have needed more acceleration.

noobslayer

10-06-2012, 01:27 PM

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 great furnace
4 mountain

2 mox opal
4 grim monolith
3 thran dynamo
2 voltaic key

3 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice

4 chalice of the void

3 metalworker
4 etched champion
4 lodestone golem
3 godo, bandit warlord
3 steel hellkite
2 phyrexian revoker
2 phyrexian metamorph

I'm trying to smooth the whole thing out. Going to test opals to get a few lands out and but still keep the drop. With the removal of a Godo and Hellkite I also thought it worked out well cause it allowed me to drop a Dynamo. Cleared on Batterskull for the time being as well, as it becomes very mana intensive to protect, and I'd rather keep what little tempo we have by applying more pressure. Still looking to keep revoker in the main, this may change depending on how well metamorph plays. His ability to act as legendary removal is huge for me, as well as his ability to turn an ok board position into a very strong board position.

dillonkbase

10-08-2012, 12:25 AM

4 ancient tomb

4 great furnace
4 mountain

2 mox opal

Might think about replacing a mountain or two with darksteel citadel if you only need to fuel the 3 godo. More artifact land powers up opal easier.

(nameless one)

10-16-2012, 12:19 PM

How is everyone doing with this deck.

I am still running red (Goblin Welder instead of Godo) but Welder is now in the side. My main is currently mono-brown featuring Chalices and Revokers.

Post-board, I do the Welder instead since this is when your opponent overloads on artifact hate. If caught by surprise, your opponent's artifact hate actually gets negated by Welder.

How is everything doing with the Godo builds?

kingofethanol

10-16-2012, 05:05 PM

Koby

10-16-2012, 05:16 PM

Spine is the best Show & Tell answer, as it destroys all the relevant Show & Tell plans, and in the exact speed you want it to be. Against Griselbrand, they might still draw cards, but it does kill Omniscience before they can play any of their relevant spells.

HoneyT

10-16-2012, 05:28 PM

My Godo list hasn't changed much from a few posts ago. The maindeck is identical still and I've only made a few tweaks to the board depending on my expected meta. The deck is still running VERY well.

Also as Koby pointed out, Spine is by far the best card against Show and Tell for those having problems with that matchup.

kingofethanol

10-16-2012, 06:13 PM

How many Spines do you recommend in a list of 75?

HoneyT

10-16-2012, 06:20 PM

In a Forgemaster list you can get away with 1 in the maindeck then a couple more post-board.

I'm currently developing/focusing on Godo and I'm playing 3 in the board right now.

SirTylerGalt

10-16-2012, 06:27 PM

Current mono-brown MUD Forgemaster list:

4 Chalice of the Void

2 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
3 Serum Powder
2 Lightning Greaves

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Phyrexian Revoker

2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Duplicant

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Buried Ruin
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Darksteel Citadel

SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Contagion Engine
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 1 Karn, Silver Golem
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Null Brooch
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre

I'm testing Serum Powder to add some consistency.

Phyrexian Metamorph is a good all-around answer for Legendary creatures. It can copy a Lodestone Golem for a fast start. Also good to tutor with Kuldotha to copy Myr Battlesphere to make lots of tokens and attack for lethal.

In my SB, Null Brooch is a tutor target against UW Miracles, Bridge / Spine of Ish Sah are good against Sneak & Show. Contagion Engine is great against aggro / tribal.
Karn is nice against decks with 0-mana artifacts, as well as Equipment (use it on Equipments during Declare Blockers step to unequip them).

(nameless one)

10-16-2012, 07:39 PM

(nameless_one) which match ups are overloading on artifact hate? Are you anticipating cards like Creeping Corrosion, or just mass amounts of Shatter effects? Which sideboarded spot removal cards are you seeing?

I was browsing the Omniscience threads, as I haven't yet tested against that deck. They have two separate plans (Emrakul/Griselbrand and Petals of Insight storm), so what is the game plan? Metamorph and Duplicant are less effective because if they drop Omniscience your clone is useless. I feel like dropping Thorn of Amethyst/Trinisphere or Ensnaring Bridge (or hopefully something better that can stop both an attack and Griselbrand's ability), and then having them Show and Tell into the second piece seems optimal, as I don't see anything in their sideboard that can stop this at the moment. Perhaps Spine could work, as it covers both of their options? What are you Kudoltha MUD players doing?

Finally getting used to the Thresh match up, still have to get better at the Stoneblade match up (still feels like 30/70 to me, haha). Thinking about running more Karns to help that. Also debating between Thirst for Knowledge and Thoughtcast.

What do Kudoltha MUD sideboards look like?

Against Omniscience decks, I think Trinisphere is the way to go. This way, they are only left with one option: Show and Tell>Emrakul. Emrakul is easier to deal with from Ensaring Bridge to Phyrexian Metamorph.

I think the key against Stoneblade is Chalice at one. It shuts down Brainstorm, their removal and discard. Sure they can play a fast Stoneforge>Batterskull, but you also play a fast Wurmcoil Engine (with Cavern of Souls to force it).

Current mono-brown MUD Forgemaster list:

4 Chalice of the Void

2 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
3 Serum Powder
2 Lightning Greaves

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Phyrexian Revoker

2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Duplicant

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Buried Ruin
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Darksteel Citadel

SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Contagion Engine
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 1 Karn, Silver Golem
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Null Brooch
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre

I'm testing Serum Powder to add some consistency.

Phyrexian Metamorph is a good all-around answer for Legendary creatures. It can copy a Lodestone Golem for a fast start. Also good to tutor with Kuldotha to copy Myr Battlesphere to make lots of tokens and attack for lethal.

In my SB, Null Brooch is a tutor target against UW Miracles, Bridge / Spine of Ish Sah are good against Sneak & Show. Contagion Engine is great against aggro / tribal.
Karn is nice against decks with 0-mana artifacts, as well as Equipment (use it on Equipments during Declare Blockers step to unequip them).

I <3 Metamorph in this deck.

How is Null Brooch? I've never really tested it but is it effective?

kingofethanol

10-16-2012, 07:40 PM

(nameless one)

10-16-2012, 07:46 PM

I posted this after I saw your post, (nameless_one). Does Trinisphere make post-Omniscience spells cost :3:? Likewise, does Lodestone Golem or Thorn of Amethyst +:1:, or does Omniscience cancel that cost?

Can't recall the +:1: effect but I am positive that :3:sphere trumps Omniscience.

SirTylerGalt

10-16-2012, 07:49 PM

What are we trying to counter with Null Brooch? Is it worth dedicating that many resources to stop a spell? Supreme Verdict is also seeing play I believe.
Serum Powder seems better on paper than it can be in real life. Card draw could add to consistency, and is good for early, middle and late game. I'd be terrible to top deck a Serum Powder any time during the game I think.

Edit:
I posted this after I saw your post, (nameless_one). Does Trinisphere make post-Omniscience spells cost :3:? Likewise, does Lodestone Golem or Thorn of Amethyst +:1:, or does Omniscience cancel that cost?

I'm still testing Null Brooch, and it might be a bad idea... But I side it in against UW Miracle to counter Terminus... We often end up in topdeck mode anyway, so it's okay to discard our hand :) But I guess it would be better in a version with more Voltaic Key, to counter Multiple spells a turn.

Serum Powder replaces Mox Diamond / Mana acceleration, which also sucks to topdeck in the late game :)

Trinisphere indeed makes post-Omniscience cost 3. Lodestone and Thorn make them cost 1 (or more if you have multiple in play). More info at http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24330-Omniscience-and-tax-effects

Zirath

10-16-2012, 10:27 PM

Omniscience gets stopped by Lodestone/Thorn/3Sphere. That's part of the reason those are actually good match ups.

HoneyT

10-17-2012, 05:40 PM

Omniscience gets stopped by Lodestone/Thorn/3Sphere. That's part of the reason those are actually good match ups.

It only stops the Storm combo. It doesn't stop them from paying 3 to hardast and Emrakul or Griselbrand.

Don't get me wrong, those are great cards in the matchup, but Spine is still the best answer to Show and Tell in general.

(nameless one)

10-17-2012, 05:59 PM

It only stops the Storm combo. It doesn't stop them from paying 3 to hardast and Emrakul or Griselbrand.

Don't get me wrong, those are great cards in the matchup, but Spine is still the best answer to Show and Tell in general.

Against Omniscience decks, I think Trinisphere is the way to go. This way, they are only left with one option: Show and Tell>Emrakul. Emrakul is easier to deal with from Ensaring Bridge to Phyrexian Metamorph.

If you're worried about Griselbrand, a preemptive Phyrexian Revoker naming Griselbrand seems to work too.

kingofethanol

10-18-2012, 06:52 AM

Anyone trying Thoughtcast/Thirst for Knowledge builds?

Zirath

10-18-2012, 09:25 AM

It only stops the Storm combo. It doesn't stop them from paying 3 to hardast and Emrakul or Griselbrand.

Don't get me wrong, those are great cards in the matchup, but Spine is still the best answer to Show and Tell in general.

When they Show and Tell out Omni, Golem and Sphere stops them that turn, which is usually enough for you to turn around into a win.

bruizar

10-21-2012, 01:29 PM

Zirath

10-21-2012, 03:39 PM

namely the mono-brown port/waste/thran dynamo lists (is there a name for this?)

MUD Stompy.

Fry

10-21-2012, 08:13 PM

I've been on a small hiatus unfortunately. Even thought tournament results often point in favor of Kuldotha Forgemaster, I am still of the opinion that there are much better alternatives to MUD, namely the mono-brown port/waste/thran dynamo lists (is there a name for this?) and the Godo lists. Other than that, I think that a shell using Arcum Dagsson over Forgemaster could be much more balanced as you don't put all your eggs into one basket (forgemaster activation). It reduces the mana curve and leaves you with a board position when your opponent is able to answer your activation with, for example, a Stifle.

That's why when using the Forgemaster's you take your time in using them. Just because you have the forgemaster active, does NOT mean that you need to use it immediately. It can be hard to learn when to use forgemaster and what to get with it, but that the familiarity of it comes with more experience playing it. Oft times it's good just to leave up the forgemaster ability and bluff something, or to do it in response to something.

This past weekend I played at Jupiter and in one of the rounds it was game 3 I had trading post in play, forgemaster I just put a greaves on, and a staff of nin (amazing by the way, at least for metalworker builds, extra cards makes it wonderful) my opponent had me at 2 with an active lavamancer in play... I waited a turn or two to use the forgemaster (it was brought to my attention after the match that I could have won several turns earlier by using the forgemaster, which I acknowledged and told them why I waited until I did) in response to him trying to burn me out with lavamancer after I discarded a card to gain 4 with trading post... Got platinum emperion, equiped to greaves and won a few turns later.

ToasTer86

10-30-2012, 04:19 AM

Hey Everyone,

I went to the Dutch national (game force) champion ship with MUD.
Won 4 games lost 3 . Had a really good start with 3 wins in a row then i lost from affinity and things seemed to go downhill.
It was my first tournament with this deck so i am quite happy with my results.

I think the most ammount of fun i had was against merfolk
1: buried ruins - voltaic key
2: ancient tombs - grim monolith - metal worker ( 1 mana left for daze)
3: turn 3 double tap metal worker and show 5 artifacts twice. Karn + 2x lodestone golem + crucible of worlds
This resulted in an instant scoop :)

Tonight I will write a tournament report and make a link here so you guys can read about my games if you are interested.

deck used:

4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Steel Hellkite
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Platinum Emperion
2 Karn Liberated

4 Thran Dynamo
4 Grim Monolith
3 Metalworker
3 Voltaic Key

4 Chalice of the Void
1 All is Dust

3 Buried Ruin
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

SB: 3 Cursed Totem
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 2 duplicant
SB: 2 Sundering Titan
SB: 2 sun droplet
SB: 2 Crucible of Worlds

Bobmans

10-30-2012, 12:33 PM

I went to the Dutch national (game force) champion ship with MUD.
Won 4 games lost 3 . Had a really good start with 3 wins in a row then i lost from affinity and things seemed to go downhill.
It was my first tournament with this deck so i am quite happy with my results.

I think the most ammount of fun i had was against merfolk

Congrats with the result.
I also participated on the Dutch Legacy championship with a MUD list (Forgemaster/Welder) and went 4-2-1 granting me 29th place. For me it was my third tournament with MUD and even within Legacy. The day before i participated on the qualifier and went 4-1. I lost to U/W Miracles in the top 4 granting me 3/4th place (14 players).

I am pretty happy with my current list. The thoughest matchups where against blue/white based decks (stoneblade and miracles). So i am trying to find a way to improve the game against those matchups.

Looking forward to you're report.

(nameless one)

10-30-2012, 01:03 PM

@ToasTer86:

Good job on the tournament. Hopefully You win the next tournament to go for.

Also, looking forward to that report.

@Bobsman:

How does your Welder/Forgemaster list look like?

Bobmans

10-30-2012, 01:45 PM

@Bobmans:
How does your Welder/Forgemaster list look like?

2 Karn Liberated

1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Phyrexian Revoker

3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Goblin Welder

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void

2 Lightning Greaves
3 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
3 Voltaic Key
2 Mox Opal

4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls

SB: 2 All Is Dust
SB: 1 Steel Hellkite
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion
SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 3 Defense Grid
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst

jamis

10-30-2012, 07:29 PM

Has anyone playing a Godo build considered Sword of Vengeance? Vigilance and haste seem very relevant. The power boost, trample, and first strike are also nice bonuses.

Bobmans

10-31-2012, 03:38 AM

Has anyone playing a Godo build considered Sword of Vengeance? Vigilance and haste seem very relevant. The power boost, trample, and first strike are also nice bonuses.

If you would play Sword of Vengeance out of Godo, you would need another 3 mana to equip. Anyway in the following turn i would rather have a Sword of Fire and Ice, which creates 14 damage a turn when equipped on Godo, or even Sword of Light and Shadow, to revive utility like Metalworker or Phyrexian Revoker.

Also when i cast Godo, the first equipment i will be looking for is Batterskull or an equipment that answers threats like a Umezawa's Jitte or previously mentioned.

What i am also wondering is to results of the Godo lists and any reports on them.

ToasTer86

10-31-2012, 05:28 AM

Congrats with the result.
I also participated on the Dutch Legacy championship with a MUD list (Forgemaster/Welder) and went 4-2-1 granting me 29th place. For me it was my third tournament with MUD and even within Legacy. The day before i participated on the qualifier and went 4-1. I lost to U/W Miracles in the top 4 granting me 3/4th place (14 players).

I am pretty happy with my current list. The thoughest matchups where against blue/white based decks (stoneblade and miracles). So i am trying to find a way to improve the game against those matchups.

Looking forward to you're report.

Nice, I heard there was another MUD player playing. Wish we would have met up there and talked a bit.
I lost due to a humility vs blade/miracle control. Seems like its our hardest match up .
Snap caster mage flash blocking revoker on jace.
StP + snapcaster
Terminus

Didnt get a chance to write the tournament report yesterday, will do tonight !

BWM

10-31-2012, 07:03 AM

Bobmans

10-31-2012, 10:27 AM

When you're winning, you're winning really hard, when you're not winning, you're losing to a single swords to plowshares.
Seems to me that second happens more then the first. And i think the threats presented in a Forgemaster list can turn the tide, were the Godo list has that less.
But still i believe that Godo, Bandit Warlord on its own is better then a Stoneforge Mystic.

StP + snapcaster
Terminus

Yep this is an issue. Also found that an unanswered Moat/Humility is a problem. Same goes for a Umezawa's Jitte, which kills a Phyrexian Revoker, Metalworker or even Karn Liberated with 7 loyalty counters.

On the other hand, a first turn Wasteland followed with a Sundering Titan a couple turns later OR a turn one Chalice of the Void @ 1, followed by a Thorn of Amethyst and a Defense Grid is GG.
And stuff seems to happen when they have an active Jace, the Mind Sculptor and a Humility and you cast a Phyrexian Revoker(which isn't active at that time, but you have to call a name) on Jace, followed by a Spine of Ish Sah on Humility (which makes the Revoker active), followed by Karn Liberated or a Sundering Titan.
And even then a Snapcaster Mage into a Swords to Plowshares or a Terminus of the Top(deck) is on the lure.

So yeah U/W/x based decks have a better matchup, but MUD can present real dangerous threats and can win out of bad situations with a bit of luck and good play.

ToasTer86

10-31-2012, 10:51 AM

I judged the tournament, there were three or four mud-players, some affinity-players and some hybrids.

Frank Roelofs borrowed my (godo)-build and dropped after five rounds because of consistency. When you're winning, you're winning really hard, when you're not winning, you're losing to a single swords to plowshares.

Hi BWM where you the head judge or the younger judge?
I thought there was good judging overall!

Was my first competitive tournament. Not the same as saturday tournaments with 15~30 players.
Had a lot of fun playing, mud will try again soon !

Tournament report tonight!!

Ttvetjanu

10-31-2012, 05:36 PM

So I've played some 10 or so legacy tournaments with MUD (various versions) and top8 4 times with two victories (all of these with stompy). The most consistent build for me is the Stompy version. I personally keep 4 wurmcoil, 3 hellkites and 2 maindeck karn liberated (+2 on side). Karn seems to be an autogg vs miracle uw. When I side I tend to remove a bit of the mana for a higher threat density. I'm still not sure on lightning greaves (stop and jace mainly). I also play 3 maindeck phyrexian metamorphs as extra lodestones/coils and possible mana. Also great against show/tell. 2 maindeck staff of nin almost always stay in deck (also great against control and almost impossible to answer.

vintersorg

10-31-2012, 11:54 PM

I'm testing one-two blood moon maindeck, i'm quite impressive with the results, shut dows some strong decks like bug, it's awesome

ToasTer86

11-01-2012, 04:30 AM

Alex Holland

11-01-2012, 03:01 PM

I judged the tournament, there were three or four mud-players, some affinity-players and some hybrids.

Frank Roelofs borrowed my (godo)-build and dropped after five rounds because of consistency. When you're winning, you're winning really hard, when you're not winning, you're losing to a single swords to plowshares.

Wait.. Isnt godo mud better against swords to plowshares because you easily drop batterskulls all over the place???

I run 3 magus of the moon in it, another soft lock for the deck wich can be equipped if necessary. Also have 3 bonfire of the damned but they may be too much next too 2 karns altough i once used one for a massive finish :)

HoneyT

11-01-2012, 05:19 PM

Wait.. Isnt godo mud better against swords to plowshares because you easily drop batterskulls all over the place???

This. Exactly this. Godo is WAY less vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares than the typical lists, which is why I've been favoring it as of late.

Bobmans

11-01-2012, 05:57 PM

This. Exactly this. Godo is WAY less vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares than the typical lists, which is why I've been favoring it as of late.

Godo gets broken more than stoneforge after it gets resolved. But still it feels like the list is to dependant to have Godo resolve at all. It seems like this deck is a sitting duck waiting to get something happening. until then, eveything gets killed by sotp, Bolt?? Still havent tried it yet, but revoker. magus. etched with a sword and golem. chalice. Karn seem to be a strong shell. Actually, what are results of the Godo lists?

Still i think a forgemaster/welder list is more flexible.... and more clunky if having bad luck.

Ttvetjanu

11-01-2012, 06:50 PM

Hi Ttvetjanu, could you post your complete list please?

Thanks a lot very interested to see what you've got.

21 Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of souls
4 City of traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Rishadan Port
3 Darksteel Citadel

19 Threats
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Batterskull
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyerxian Metamorph
3 Steel Hellkite
2 Staff of Nin
2 Karn Liberated

20 Mana
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo
2 Voltaic Key
4 Chalice of the void
2 Mox Diamond
1 Lotus Petal

SB:
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Defense Grid
3 Trinisphere
2 Thorn of amethyst (Storm is very rampant/at least 1 high tide every tournament)
2 Karn Liberated
2 Crucible of Worlds (not 100% on this yet, in theory very good vs loam/rug/mirror but might be too slow)

ToasTer86

11-02-2012, 04:36 AM

21 Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of souls
4 City of traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Rishadan Port
3 Darksteel Citadel

19 Threats
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Batterskull
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyerxian Metamorph
3 Steel Hellkite
2 Staff of Nin
2 Karn Liberated

20 Mana
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo
2 Voltaic Key
4 Chalice of the void
2 Mox Diamond
1 Lotus Petal

SB:
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Defense Grid
3 Trinisphere
2 Thorn of amethyst (Storm is very rampant/at least 1 high tide every tournament)
2 Karn Liberated
2 Crucible of Worlds (not 100% on this yet, in theory very good vs loam/rug/mirror but might be too slow)

Hi Ttvetjanu,

I really like your list. I might give it a try myself. Adding the metamorphs to copie lodestones/wurmcoil is cool.
If you dont mind i'd like to ask you some questions about certain cards, its not criticism just want to know why you chose them.

Darksteel Citadel
Why not use Buried ruins / mishra factory. If you are scared about land destruction these 3 arent going to save you.

2 mox diamond - 1 lotus pedal
your list doesnt have that much high mana costs threats. I currently run 4 wurmcoil - hellkite , 2 karns - 2 platinum emperion. Normally i have more then enough mana and use even less mana acceleration : 3 metalworkers - 4 grim's - 4 thran's - 3 voltaic.

Its not critisism just wondering about your thoughts behind the cards.

Thanks alot for posting your list.

bruizar

11-02-2012, 09:14 AM

The primary reason to run Godo and Batterskull in the first place is to reduce the curve from 4x 6 mana to 2x 5 mana and 2x 6 mana, and to Jace/STP proof your threats. It was a replacement for Wurmcoil Engine in the first place. The second and third reason are that you can have a wasteland-proof mana-base with basics, and the fact that you get to run a couple of terrific red sideboard cards. Having 5 mana with a Batterskull in your hand is much better than sitting on 5 mana with a Wurmcoil in hand.

Ttvetjanu

11-02-2012, 09:41 AM

Hi Ttvetjanu,

I really like your list. I might give it a try myself. Adding the metamorphs to copie lodestones/wurmcoil is cool.
If you dont mind i'd like to ask you some questions about certain cards, its not criticism just want to know why you chose them.

Darksteel Citadel
Why not use Buried ruins / mishra factory. If you are scared about land destruction these 3 arent going to save you.

2 mox diamond - 1 lotus pedal
your list doesnt have that much high mana costs threats. I currently run 4 wurmcoil - hellkite , 2 karns - 2 platinum emperion. Normally i have more then enough mana and use even less mana acceleration : 3 metalworkers - 4 grim's - 4 thran's - 3 voltaic.

Its not critisism just wondering about your thoughts behind the cards.

Thanks alot for posting your list.

I've been thinking about the different lands, I like having a out against active crucible +wasteland but I have to admit that in a longer game buried ruin would also be good. I might try one. Factory I feel is not good enough (basically only decent against jace).

The 0 manacost acceleration is only for early turns, a turn one metalworker without monolith is very strong. Also enables turn 1 monolith/chalice without sol lands.

Alex Holland

11-02-2012, 03:02 PM

Godo gets broken more than stoneforge after it gets resolved. But still it feels like the list is to dependant to have Godo resolve at all. It seems like this deck is a sitting duck waiting to get something happening. until then, eveything gets killed by sotp, Bolt?? Still havent tried it yet, but revoker. magus. etched with a sword and golem. chalice. Karn seem to be a strong shell. Actually, what are results of the Godo lists?

Still i think a forgemaster/welder list is more flexible.... and more clunky if having bad luck.

This is my godo build:

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnace
4 Mountain

Disruption
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Magus of the Moon

Hitters
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Batterskull

Combo package
4 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

Removal
3 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Karn Liberated

Acceleration
4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo
3 Metalworker

A sitting duck? No seriously... I play a lot aggro with 4 lodestone 3 wurms and 4 batterskull. Dont call my baby a sitting duck.

I also name human always with cavern of souls: for godo and magus ot moon. This and normal chalice effects is killing for many greedy decks.

noobslayer

11-02-2012, 03:24 PM

I'd cut a bonfire and SoLaS for 2 Phyrexian Metamorph. This way you got 6 cards for your removal package, and metamorph is just the king of versatility for this deck.

Bobmans

11-02-2012, 05:13 PM

At Alex:
You're list looks solid. i am wondering just a few things.
Don't you miss Wasteland to backup the magus plan against Maze of ith?
How does the Bonfires works out for you. On what occasions where they helpfull (vs All is Dust ie)?
What are the weak spots of the list?

What about Etched champion and phyrexian revoker instead of 3 wurms and 2 skulls? Those provide utility and lower mana curve.

Alex Holland

11-02-2012, 05:31 PM

Well i just think is better and a more fun deck to play. First i made forgemaster but i think this is better thanks to cavern of souls. but if used competively i think id drop the bonfires and solas. F and i is much better sword overall.

Aggro isnt the biggest problem of mud decks- altough a sweeper like bonfire that can also be a kill spell is nice. 10 mana fireball isnt that strange with metalworker out right? All is dust is expensive, karn is seven mana and a bit more versatile in what he can destroy.

Bso maybe adding another karn is enough to get rid of creatures. Or maze of ith.

Metamorph is a great card, very good against unfair fatties. Plus adding consistency mana wise. + with 5 lifegain creatures paying 2 life isnt so bad.
Wasteland.. Well it just dont fit in the mana base..

Hanni

11-02-2012, 06:30 PM

Bobmans

11-02-2012, 07:18 PM

At Alex:
im gonna try running a godo setup with:

-1 Solas
-3 bonfire
-3 Batterskull
-2 Mountain

+1 Jitte
+3 Phyrexian Revoker
+3 Etched Champion
+2 Mox Opal

This cus lower mana ramp is something i want to try and simply because i only have one batterskull.

Any thoughts?

Alex Holland

11-02-2012, 07:49 PM

@Alex

Speaking of greedy decks, how does your manabase work? You're running 20 lands with 4 of them being City of Traitors, and you are running Monolith with no Keys. Do you ever find yourself having problems getting enough mana? How often do you have to mulligan because of mana sources?

I'm not trying to throw you under the bus, but I occasionally run into early mana problems even with 24 lands (due to how expensive everything else in the deck can be), so I'm just curious how you are able to function on 20.

[QUOTE=Hanni;683827]

its a tight mana base, sometimes i get stuck on 3 mana. Luckily metalworker often comes down to safe the day. Wastelands are a nightmare to play against.
Thran dynamo is very important because its way more reliable than grim monoliths who i use very carfully because i cannot untap them. I never liked voltaic key with chalice, and chalice is a win card for any mud deck. Maybe i should go to another artifact like everflowing chalice?
I think the godo build can be very good if a little more attention would be given by legacy experts.

SirTylerGalt

11-02-2012, 08:24 PM

Hanni

11-03-2012, 04:17 AM

its a tight mana base, sometimes i get stuck on 3 mana. Luckily metalworker often comes down to safe the day. Wastelands are a nightmare to play against.
Thran dynamo is very important because its way more reliable than grim monoliths who i use very carfully because i cannot untap them. I never liked voltaic key with chalice, and chalice is a win card for any mud deck. Maybe i should go to another artifact like everflowing chalice?
I think the godo build can be very good if a little more attention would be given by legacy experts.

There are some excellent options for more consistently hitting 2 mana on turn 1 and 3-4 mana on turn 2. I agree with you that Key doesn't really fit into a list with Chalice of the Void, but if you're not running Key, I wouldn't run Monolith either. I do believe Chalice is essential, and much more valuable than Monolith + Key. I always run my MUD or Stax lists with 23-25 lands and 4 Mox Diamond.

You really don't want to be dropping City on turn 1, so you're best sources of 2 mana on turn 1 is either Tomb or Diamond. MUD lists don't run the non-artifact colored spell count for Chrome Mox, and it doesn't run enough cheap artifacts to enable Metalcraft on turn 1 for Mox Opal, so Tomb and Diamond are the best sources for turn 1 mana. Diamond has the awesome ability of letting you either pitch excess Cities, or allow you to still make "land drops" with a City in play.

There are several options for hitting 3-4 mana on turn 2, like Monolith + Key, Talismans/Signets (like Talisman of Impulse or Gruul Signet), Everflowing Chalice, Iron Myr, etc. Again, I think Chalice > Monolith/Key right now.

Thran Dynamo is solid, but it's not making mana till after you hit 4 mana. You really want to be dropping this thing on turn 2 as often as possible, so focusing on trying to make 4 mana on turn 2 as consistently as possible is important IMO. What I like about Dynamo is that since its not an artifact creature like Metalworker, you get to tap it right away, so the tempo loss is minimal, and the ramp on the following turn is pretty big. Dropping Dynamo on turn 2 still lets you drop a 3cc bomb, with 7+ mana available for turn 3 brokenness. Dropping Dynamo on turn 3 is not nearly as busted.

What you choose to run as your additional mana source for making 3-4 mana on turn 2 is up to you. I'm personally a fan of Mox Opal, since it requires 0 mana commitment and provides mana of any color. You do need to run around 8 or more artifact lands to make that happen, though. You mentioned Everflowing Chalice, which seems like a solid option in a mono-colored MUD list, especially when you aren't even running any double red costed spells. So long as you can make 2 mana on turn 1, a turn 1 Everflowing Chalice should easily provide you 4 mana on turn 2.

Once you get the mana figured out, the rest of the deck can be pretty much whatever goodstuff you want to run. Godo seems like a fine choice, although I'd consider running some bigger equipments than the Swords of X and Y. If you can make 6 mana to drop Godo into play, you can afford to play some bigger equip costs on the following turn. Cranial Plating is also a pretty solid option that I haven't seen anyone using yet. Fireshrieker is interesting. Hedron Matrix is pretty beefy... if you slap it on Godo on the following turn, you're swinging for 18 damage (probably for the win, if unblocked). I know you're unable to make green mana, but Mage Slayer is also interesting. Moonsilver Spear is pretty cool... and unlike Geist of Saint Traft, the token sticks around. Nim Deathmantle has some sick synergy with Forgemaster (for those running him). Oathkeeper, Takeno's Daisho is also interesting... but without a way to get Godo into the yard reliably, it's probably just a danger of cool things. Quietus Spike is another interesting option, although doing combat damage to an opponent without any evasion is likely not worth it. Sword of Kaldra looks pretty epic, and likely the best one out of all the ones I listed. Someone already mentioned Sword of Vengeance. Too bad Tenza, Godo's Maul sucks, since it has awesome flavor in a deck with Godo lol.

On a different note, I've been hammering away at a blue MUD list splashing black (and possibly white), and once I'm done fine-tuning it, I'll post it. I've been working on it for like 3 weeks, and still not 100% satisfied just yet... but it's getting pretty damn close to super awesome.

Alex Holland

11-03-2012, 09:17 AM

Hanni

11-03-2012, 10:12 AM

Hmm nice ideas but the equipment shouldnt be too cute. I mostly just bring out batterskull with godo because i expect godo to die fast and horribly. Batterskull is hard to kill/remove and bringing him the godo way only costs one red mana extra! If godo lives.. Than thats board and card advantage. If you play godo later in the game youll get a sword to push trough or to make a magus/metalworker bulletproof. Jitte could be a good alternative to solas because he also got a bit removale in him and 2 godo attacks a turn could get him charged up quick.

I hope your black mud splash consists of nether void. I tried to git him in because hes really good with large mana from mud. Too bad black hasnt got too many other mud cards.. Maybe ancient cravings to get 3 extra cards..

Batterskull definitely makes the most sense as a target for Godo. Tutoring up a 4/4 vigilance lifelink is pretty sweet. Sometimes though, a Batterskull isn't too scary. Goyf, Knight, etc don't care about a 4/4. If you are capable of casting Godo, you can support the bigger equip costs. I wasn't talking about running 10 equipment spells or something crazy. I was listing some cool alternatives to the Swords of X and Y. Slapping a Sword of Kaldra on a Metalworker is pretty savage... 6/7 that exiles a blocking creature sounds pretty nice. Or you know, toss it on a Lodestone for a 10/8. Even with a SoFI, Knight doesn't care about a 7/5 pro red and blue oftentimes.

Even against control, having a huge bomby equipment spell sitting there means that even if they Terminus your board, every single creature you draw after that is going to be a serious problem.

Anyway, my U/B version is not running Nether Void (but it could be a possible sideboard option I suppose). The deck isn't trying to do fair things like destroy 1 creature a turn... it's doing broken things like cheating Inkwell Leviathan's and Blightsteel's into play consistently, or assembling a Metalworker/Staff combo ftw, etc. It does leverage quite a bit of card advantage though, in comparison to a typical MUD deck.

dillonkbase

11-03-2012, 11:56 AM

Regarding the manabase:

There's also the trick where you have a City of Traitors in play and a red mana source (the best being Cavern of Souls), play Magus of the Moon, then, retaining priority, play a land. Since playing a land does not use the stack, the opponent cannot kill your Magus in response, and you won't have to sacrifice City of Traitors, since it's a mountain :)

Just want to clarify....Whenever a spell resolves, the active player gets priority. so this doesn't take any special action, you just need to make land dropping the first thing you do once magus resolves.

Alex Holland

11-03-2012, 01:32 PM

Anyway, my U/B version is not running Nether Void (but it could be a possible sideboard option I suppose). The deck isn't trying to do fair things like destroy 1 creature a turn... [/QUOTE]

i think your talking about the abyss? I mean nether void as a lock piece. Totally a-symetric with metalworker sollands monolith etc

SirTylerGalt

11-03-2012, 01:53 PM

Just want to clarify....Whenever a spell resolves, the active player gets priority. so this doesn't take any special action, you just need to make land dropping the first thing you do once magus resolves.

Yeah I know. It's not really a "trick". It's more like a cool interaction that's hard to stop. Only way to stop it is to counter the Magus, if it wasn't played using Cavern Of Souls.

Hanni

11-03-2012, 03:12 PM

Anyway, my U/B version is not running Nether Void (but it could be a possible sideboard option I suppose). The deck isn't trying to do fair things like destroy 1 creature a turn...

i think your talking about the abyss? I mean nether void as a lock piece. Totally a-symetric with metalworker sollands monolith etc

I'm sorry, you're right. I was thinking you meant The Abyss. It's not running Nether Voids right now either. I've tried to keep the deck with as few non-artifact spells as possible to maximize the synergies with my various mana/draw/tutor engines. Even though I can see Nether Void being pretty powerful, it is not asymmetrical... it still slows my combos down significantly. I'll try to test a few when I can, but the list is really tight right now and I'm not sure how it would fit.

I also started working on another MUD list, primarily colorless, with a possible white and/or blue splash, revolving around Myr spells. The Myr cards are pretty broken in combination with one another. It started out as a fun little tribal deck with a few synergies I noticed among some cards, and quickly turned into some crazy powerful token spamming deck with a ton of lord effects, an easy to assemble infinite mana combo (which typically results in an instant-win), and another powerful instant-win that is independent of the infinite mana combo. I'm still working on it, and it may take a few weeks for me to fine tune that one as well.

So basically, expect to see me post two different MUD lists in the coming weeks, one is a blue-based combo focused list, and the other is a brown-based token spamming list that is also combo-tastic.

noobslayer

11-04-2012, 01:09 AM

Honestly, the list that got posted with 3 godos and 3 wurm coils got me kinda hard. That raw kind of power to effectively run 8 batterskulls seems kind of intriguing. I see wurmcoil and etched champion taking the same slots. They both represent a STRONG tempo card that synergizes with whatever build you are trying to go for. I need to go to another thread, I was too drunk.

ToasTer86

11-05-2012, 05:17 AM

Batterskull definitely makes the most sense as a target for Godo. Tutoring up a 4/4 vigilance lifelink is pretty sweet. Sometimes though, a Batterskull isn't too scary. Goyf, Knight, etc don't care about a 4/4. If you are capable of casting Godo, you can support the bigger equip costs. I wasn't talking about running 10 equipment spells or something crazy. I was listing some cool alternatives to the Swords of X and Y. Slapping a Sword of Kaldra on a Metalworker is pretty savage... 6/7 that exiles a blocking creature sounds pretty nice. Or you know, toss it on a Lodestone for a 10/8. Even with a SoFI, Knight doesn't care about a 7/5 pro red and blue oftentimes.

Even against control, having a huge bomby equipment spell sitting there means that even if they Terminus your board, every single creature you draw after that is going to be a serious problem.

Anyway, my U/B version is not running Nether Void (but it could be a possible sideboard option I suppose). The deck isn't trying to do fair things like destroy 1 creature a turn... it's doing broken things like cheating Inkwell Leviathan's and Blightsteel's into play consistently, or assembling a Metalworker/Staff combo ftw, etc. It does leverage quite a bit of card advantage though, in comparison to a typical MUD deck.

Keep us posted with your deck, I am really interested in seeing what you made.

Hanni

11-12-2012, 02:11 PM

Keep us posted with your deck, I am really interested in seeing what you made.

I'm still up in the air with the last few slots for the U/B combo-esque version, but I'm finished working on the maindeck of my Myr deck.

Myrs!

// Lands (24)
4 [UNH] Plains
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [MI] Crystal Vein
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MOR] Mutavault

// Creatures (21)
4 [MR] Gold Myr
4 [MR] Silver Myr
4 [SOM] Palladium Myr
4 [SOM] Myr Galvanizer
4 [SOM] Myr Battlesphere
1 [LRW] Mirror Entity

// Spells (15)
4 [MBS] Myr Turbine
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

I've gone back and forth between many different card choices, and several different color splashes, but this is where I'm at right now. The Silver Myr's could be any other 2cc mana dork Myr depending on what sideboard choices I ultimately go with.

There are quite a few mini-synergies in the deck, but the most notable is the infinite tap/untap combo with 2 Myr Galvanizer's and at least one of any of the mana producing Myrs (including Mutavault), and the infinite mana combo with 2 Myr Galvanizer's and at least two of the single mana producing Myrs or at least one Palladium Myr. The infinite tap/untap combo is used to make Myr Battlesphere an instant-win, and the infinite mana combo makes Mirror Entity an instant win. However, even with a single Myr Galvanizer, the deck gets alot of mileage out of the mana dorks and Myr Battlesphere.

Myr Turbine is crazy good, and I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone try using it before. It makes a token every turn like Elspeth or Sorin or whatever would, so it's very resilient to removal like Swords and Terminus. At 5 Myrs, you can tap 5 Myrs for 5 more Myrs via Myr Battlesphere. Myr Turbine is such an awesome engine card, and will easily bury an opponent in card advantage if it doesn't get dealt with immediately. It's ability to tutor up any Myr can also be used to set up one of the infinite combos or grab Mirror Entity for the instant-win, depending on what you already have on the board.

The deck can hit big mana on turns 2-3 pretty consistently. Dropping Myr Battlesphere's on turns 3 and 4 is good times. Myr Battlesphere is such a powerful creature card... I mean really, the thing is like Siege-Gang Commander on crack. You get 5 bodies for 7 mana, and if you tap the 4 tokens down on the following turn, a lone Battlesphere can push for 12 damage. If you add a single Myr Galvanizer to this equation, a lone Battlesphere can push for 21 damage.

Even when the deck doesn't hit big mana or do broken things, it can still play an aggro beatdown plan with mana dorks + Umezawa's Jitte.

Overall, the deck has been a blast to play.

If you guys feel that this sort of list doesn't really belong here (since it's not even running Metalworker), I can create a new thread in N&D for it.

Again, I'm still working on the finishing touches to the U/B Metalworker list. I'll hopefully be posting a list for it soon.

SirTylerGalt

11-12-2012, 03:13 PM

The deck can hit big mana on turns 2-3 pretty consistently. Dropping Myr Battlesphere's on turns 3 and 4 is good times. Myr Battlesphere is such a powerful creature card... I mean really, the thing is like Siege-Gang Commander on crack. You get 5 bodies for 7 mana, and if you tap the 4 tokens down on the following turn, a lone Battlesphere can push for 12 damage. If you add a single Myr Galvanizer to this equation, a lone Battlesphere can push for 21 damage.

Cool concept!

I was wondering how you can push 21 damage with Myr Battlesphere + Myr Galvanizer, since you can't untap your Myr tokens while Myr Battlesphere's triggered ability is resolving. I found a discussion about this interaction: http://draw3cards.com/questions/3862/can-i-reuse-myrs-tapped-for-myr-battlesphere-using-myr-galvanizer

What you can do, is attack with Battlesphere and the 4 tokens, untap them all with Galvanizer in response to Myr Battlesphere's trigger, then tap the Battlesphere and the 4 tokens to boost the Battlesphere. You end up with 5 direct damage, a 10/8 Battlesphere (4/7 +5/+0 from tapping 5 Myrs +1/+1 from Galvanizer) and 4 2/2 token, for a total of 23 damage.

Edit: what about Myrsmith, Origin Spellbomb and Myr Reservoir?

Hanni

11-12-2012, 03:25 PM

Cool concept!

I was wondering how you can push 21 damage with Myr Battlesphere + Myr Galvanizer, since you can't untap your Myr tokens while Myr Battlesphere's triggered ability is resolving. I found a discussion about this interaction: http://draw3cards.com/questions/3862...myr-galvanizer

What you can do, is attack with Battlesphere and the 4 tokens, untap them all with Galvanizer in response to Myr Battlesphere's trigger, then tap the Battlesphere and the 4 tokens to boost the Battlesphere. You end up with 5 direct damage, a 10/8 Battlesphere (4/7 +5/+0 from tapping 5 Myrs +1/+1 from Galvanizer) and 4 2/2 token, for a total of 23 damage.

Well that's gay. I read that it was possible from a few other sources, so I thought I could go infinite with it. What a downer :cry: I could use Lodestone Myr instead, but Lodestone is not that great without Galvanizer, where Battlesphere is a bomb regardless.

At least that other interaction works, which is probably enough to win anyway. Not as cool as going infinite, but the infinite combo is usually win-more... so I guess it's not a big deal.

Hanni

11-12-2012, 03:38 PM

You threw these in after I typed up my first response...

Edit: what about Myrsmith, Origin Spellbomb and Myr Reservoir?

I tried ALOT of cards out, those ones included. I'd rather start a new thread for that though, since the list is pretty extensive and I'd rather not clutter this thread with it.

Myr Reservoir only makes mana for Myr spells and isn't a Myr itself, so it won't cast Myr Turbine, nor bring back a Myr Turbine, nor be tapped to a Myr Turbine. It won't untap with Myr Galvanizer either. I just didn't feel like it was worth it. It also cannot pick up a Jitte and swing like the mana dork Myrs can.

Origin Spellbomb is decent, but it doesn't play nice with Chalice. Paying 3 mana for a 1/1 with a cantrip is mediocre, and needs something like Trading Post to turn it into an engine (preferably with Myr Retriever and Myr Servitor in the list as well). That's not necessarily a bad idea, but it takes the deck in an entirely different direction.

Myrsmith was good, and I've cut it and then added it back a few times. It slows the deck down a bit to pay 1 more mana for each of my artifacts though. It cannot be cast off of a Caverns naming Myr, and cannot be cast on turn 1 off of an Ancient Tomb, so I'd have to tweak my mana sources a bit. It's always possible that I may try to fit it back in at some point.

My current list feels very smooth, so I'll stick with it for now. I've put about a week and a half into tuning it at this point, and I'm very happy with where it's at.

Razorwynd

11-12-2012, 11:08 PM

On a different note, I've been hammering away at a blue MUD list splashing black (and possibly white), and once I'm done fine-tuning it, I'll post it. I've been working on it for like 3 weeks, and still not 100% satisfied just yet... but it's getting pretty damn close to super awesome.

How does it look now?! I am certainly curious.

Ttvetjanu

11-13-2012, 01:35 AM

21 Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of souls
4 City of traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Rishadan Port
3 Darksteel Citadel

19 Threats
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Batterskull
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyerxian Metamorph
3 Steel Hellkite
2 Staff of Nin
2 Karn Liberated

20 Mana
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo
2 Voltaic Key
4 Chalice of the void
2 Mox Diamond
1 Lotus Petal

SB:
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Defense Grid
3 Trinisphere
2 Thorn of amethyst (Storm is very rampant/at least 1 high tide every tournament)
2 Karn Liberated
2 Crucible of Worlds (not 100% on this yet, in theory very good vs loam/rug/mirror but might be too slow)

Made 3-4th at a local tournament with the above list except two citadels were buried ruins.

Matchups:
UR delver - Chalice x=1 and fast threats ended both games fast
UW miracles - staff of nin and after sideboarding 4 maindeck karns are very strong. Just keep them off white mana whenever possible and drop a chalice at 1.
BGR Loam- frist game he lost on deckcheck, second game after some grinding I drop a chalice at 2 and he does not have the abrupt decay and loses to a batterskull.
Round4 ID
Round5 ID
Top8
Same Loam- grindy games where I stick a threat like wurmcoil and beat up.
Top4- RUG- Both games he drops a turn 1 delver and in the proceeding turns has the spell pierces and dazes (and fow for chalice) to seal the game. I think I'll drop one defense grid from the sideboard for an additional trinisphere for this matchup. Lightning greaves also seems very good against rug.

Alex Holland

11-14-2012, 04:11 PM

I mean really, the thing is like Siege-Gang Commander on crack. You get 5 bodies for 7 mana, and if you tap the 4 tokens down on the following turn, a lone Battlesphere can push for 12 damage. If you add a single Myr Galvanizer to this equation, a lone Battlesphere can push for 21 damage.

Even when the deck doesn't hit big mana or do broken things, it can still play an aggro beatdown plan with mana dorks + Umezawa's Jitte.

I always like new ideas for the MUD archetype. It certainly seems fun and i tought about myr decks before..but this kind of tribe build is just to casual fun i think. Like what good is a 100/100 battlesphere without evasion? And if you want to swarm an opponent to death, well other decks can do that job better.

Considering your black and blue build, there are some really interesting cards out there for a blue take ( well at least i think there are) i think these are too be considered:

master transmuter (why? its a one mana cheaper forgemaster..for the hand instead of the library ok.. but it can be used more than once!)

phyrexian metamorph (well its already being played so it should be even better with blue mana?)

glen alandra archemage (look! now we have counters too combo safer!)

card draw (blue has many card draw.. intuition is cool.. faresee is also cool because its a sorcerey..)

sorcery? what am i talking about? well..... in the eye of chaos, sir. run 2-3. We will never play daze (to less islands) or fow (to little blue) BUT we can annoy legacy control greatly with in the eye of chaos- does this makes us more safer? i think so.. at least its a reason to play with this cool old card for the first time ever in magic history :tongue:

My blue mud so far:

disruption:
4x chalice of the void
2x in the eye of chaos
4x glen elendra archmage

Combo:
4x master transmuter
2x platinum emperion
1x mindslaver

Aggro:
3x batterskull
4x phyrexian metamorph
3x wurmcoil engine

Mana:
3x silver myr
4x grim monolith
2x thran dynamo
2x mox opal

Draw:
3x intuition (or foresee?)

Land:
4x tomb
4x city of traitors
7x island
4x seat of the synod

Undomian

11-14-2012, 10:19 PM

You almost certainly want to be playing at least one copy of Academy Ruins (if not two) if you want to be on the Intuition plan.

monovfox

11-15-2012, 04:02 AM

Is there a control version of the deck that runs trading post by chance? I really want to see if I can play a deck with trading post in it again D:

Hanni

11-17-2012, 12:16 AM

I always like new ideas for the MUD archetype. It certainly seems fun and i tought about myr decks before..but this kind of tribe build is just to casual fun i think. Like what good is a 100/100 battlesphere without evasion? And if you want to swarm an opponent to death, well other decks can do that job better.

I mean, it probably will stay as just a casual deck for now, until they either print some more better stuff for it, or I find a way make it better. It can be incredibly powerful sometimes, but other times it can fall apart. The biggest problem is the fact that it is reliant on the mana dorks for mana. Opponents that hit my turn 1 Gold Myr with a 1cc removal spell, and then hit my turn 2 Palladium with a removal spell and have a Wasteland for my Ancient Tomb tend to blow me out of the water. Going into turn 3 with 1 mana and few resources left in hand to make the mana necessary to cast bigger costed spells is pretty much gg. Although, when the deck is capable of sticking a Myr Turbine on turns 2 or 3, it gets pretty bonkers from there. Myr Turbine is just so disgustingly good... it was the entire reason I wanted to try and build a Myr deck in the first place (well that, and Myr Battlesphere, although Myr Galvanizer was a very enticing reason as well). Honestly though, it's a little disheartening to run Palladium Myr as a 3cc mana dork that taps for 2, when Metalworker is a 3cc mana dork that can tap for shitloads more. The synergy with Galvanizer's is nice, though.

How does it look now?! I am certainly curious.

Meh... I keep switching back and forth on some things, and it's still not finished in my eyes. I was going to wait till it was 100% complete, but I don't know how long that's going to take. I've been tweaking it for like a month now and its still not finished, so what the hell, here is where I am at with it currently:

U/b Masterworker

// Lands (24)
4 [MR] Island
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures (21)
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [ARC] Master Transmuter
4 [DDF] Faerie Mechanist
3 [CFX] Sphinx Summoner
2 [SOM] Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 [MR] Duplicant
1 [SOM] Myr Battlesphere
1 [DS] Sundering Titan
1 [MBS] Blightsteel Colossus

// Spells (15)
1 [FD] Staff of Domination
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [MR] Lightning Greaves
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard (Alot)
SB: 1 [MBS] Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 1 [ALA] Sharuum the Hegemon
SB: 1 [CHK] Hall of the Bandit Lord
SB: 1 [ALA] Skill Borrower
SB: 1 [NPH] Spellskite
SB: 1 [MR] Wizard Replica
SB: 1 [EVE] Scarecrone
SB: 1 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
SB: 1 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 1 [ARB] Sen Triplets
SB: 1 [MR] Timesifter
SB: 1 [MR] Thought Prison
SB: 1 [MR] Rustspore Ram
SB: 1 [FD] Silent Arbiter
SB: 1 [SHM] Grim Poppet
SB: 1 [RAV] Nullstone Gargoyle
SB: 1 [MR] Platinum Angel
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 1 [SOM] Steel Hellkite
SB: 1 [MR] Triskelion
SB: 1 [SOM] Golem Artisan
SB: 1 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 1 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 [EX] Null Brooch
SB: 1 [FD] Neurok Stealthsuit
SB: 1 [ARC] Thunderstaff
SB: 1 [LRW] Thousand-Year Elixir
SB: 1 [CS] Jester's Scepter
SB: 1 [CFX] Scepter of Fugue
SB: 1 [RAV] Bottled Cloister
SB: 1 [NPH] Birthing Pod
SB: 1 [FE] Aeolipile
SB: 1 [SOM] Chimeric Mass
SB: 1 [AQ] Cursed Rack
SB: 1 [ALA] Scourglass
SB: 1 [NPH] Norn's Annex
SB: 1 [UL] Crawlspace
SB: 1 [UD] Caltrops
SB: 1 [M13] Trading Post
SB: 1 [MR] Proteus Staff
SB: 1 [PS] Skyship Weatherlight
SB: 1 [SOM] Prototype Portal
SB: 1 [FD] Summoning Station
SB: 1 [MBS] Myr Turbine
SB: 1 [CHK] Orochi Hatchery
SB: 1 [US] Phyrexian Processor
SB: 1 [SOM] Mimic Vat
SB: 1 [M12] Druidic Satchel
SB: 1 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan
SB: 1 [ISD] Witchbane Orb
SB: 1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
SB: 1 [TSP] Triskelavus
SB: 1 [MBS] Mirrorworks
SB: 1 [IN] Planar Portal
SB: 1 [MR] Solemn Simulacrum
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
SB: 1 [M12] Buried Ruin
SB: 1 [MBS] Phyrexian Juggernaut
SB: 1 [NPH] Batterskull
SB: 1 [EVE] Ward of Bones
SB: 1 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 [TE] Wasteland
SB: 1 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [MR] Fabricate
SB: 1 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Considering your black and blue build, there are some really interesting cards out there for a blue take ( well at least i think there are) i think these are too be considered:

master transmuter (why? its a one mana cheaper forgemaster..for the hand instead of the library ok.. but it can be used more than once!)

phyrexian metamorph (well its already being played so it should be even better with blue mana?)

glen alandra archemage (look! now we have counters too combo safer!)

card draw (blue has many card draw.. intuition is cool.. faresee is also cool because its a sorcerey..)

sorcery? what am i talking about? well..... in the eye of chaos, sir. run 2-3. We will never play daze (to less islands) or fow (to little blue) BUT we can annoy legacy control greatly with in the eye of chaos- does this makes us more safer? i think so.. at least its a reason to play with this cool old card for the first time ever in magic history

Master Transmuter is the whole point in playing blue. It's similar in function to Metalworker, or in other words, it cheats stuff into play... except it will unconditionally cheat any artifact into play, regardless of how many artifacts you have in hand. It costs 3U instead of 3, and costs U to activate vs 0, but it's a more than just an enabler. With ETB effects, Transmuter is an engine card. It bounces the artifact to hand as part of the cost, so that means you can bounce and then replay the same artifact. Drawing an extra artifact out of the top 3 every turn with Mechanist is a nice way to draw into some action, for example. There are alot of really good artifact creatures (and noncreature artifacts too) with really good ETB effects. Once Transmuter goes live, it can also protect any artifact from spot removal, which is pretty awesome.

More importantly, it's not replacing Metalworker, but being run in addition to. In other words, it increases the decks density of enablers, allowing the deck to focus more on cheating more powerful higher-costed spells into play, and less so on going a fairer stompy route (not to say the stompy route is fair, as it can still be pretty broken).

I dislike Goblin Welder for the fact that he clashes with Chalice. I realize Cavern of Souls can allow the deck to drop Welder under a Chalice, but I still don't like the disynergy. I do understand how strong Welder can be, especially with Wurmcoil Engine (i.e leaves the battlefield/dies effects), and it can also take advantage of ETB effects to a lesser extent (in comparison to Transmuter), but I still prefer Transmuter.

Metamorph is a great card for sure, but its inclusion has nothing to do with blue (unless you're running Force of Will and need the blue spell count).

Glen Elendra is a strong card, but my list is pretty artifact-centric. It needs as many artifacts as possible to get the most out of Metalworker, Mechanist, Forgemaster, etc.

As far as card draw is concerned, I prefer Mechanist and Sphinx. Mechanist and Sphinx give me an alternate way to win via flying beats when my cheaty-face plan is being disrupted. Mechanist gives me a nice draw effect on a body, so I'm not sacrificing tempo just to draw cards, and it turns into a draw engine with Transmuter. Same with Sphinx, except its more powerful since it tutors directly for whatever creature I want to cheat into play.

Not really sold on In the Eyes of Chaos... maybe as a sideboard card, but even then its doubtful. There's better options for shutting down spells IMO... with Sundering Titan being my favorite option at the moment. The only nonartifact spells I was running were Fabricate for greater consistency (ended up cutting it after constantly wanting to draw it with Faerie Mechanist and not being able to), Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas (decided to cut it a couple of weeks ago, although it may end up back in the list again at some point), and Force of Will (I cut it because I decided that Trinisphere was just much better for the deck overall).

---

Anyway, there it is... I guess the cat is out of the bag now.

Bobmans

11-17-2012, 11:27 AM

Anyway, there it is... I guess the cat is out of the bag now.

The list looks really great and the idea with Master Transmuter looks really awesome. Also it's really awesome to get a Trannsmuter into play with Cavern of Souls on Artificer and then being completely safe of any counter magic, with the exception of stifle. Which in my opinion is the weak spot of the forgemaster list anyway. Also i liked you tried to keep the kuldotha forgemaster, Lightning Greaves and Blightsteel colossus combo in the deck as a wincon.
Pity tho that Wurmcoil Engine and Lodestone Golem had to clear the path. Perhaps taking out the forgemaster combo and include those fatties would be an idea...

So anyway i have been toying with your list and my current forgemaster/welder list and came up with the next list, which i am going to try tonight with some friends. I dropped the black splash, because i didn't really like it and i wanted to include Tezzeret and change to mana base more to the way it played comfortable in my forgemaster/welder list. Also i kept the Phyrexian Revoker in the list because those have kept me out of trouble a lots of times.

Main 61 cards
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Island
2 Buried Ruin
1 Academy Ruins (with the exclusion of Goblin Welder the deck could use some revival)

2 Mox Opal
3 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith (I just don't like Mox Diamond)
3 Voltaic Key (Untap Transmuter, bounce titan....)

4 Master Transmuter
3 Faerie Mechanist
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Sundering Titan
3 Phyrexian Revoker (Jace, ...)
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah (This card is almost always usefull and with Transmuter being able to bounce it makes it even better)

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Tezzeret the Seeker (I just like having a planeswalker around. this cards only drawback is UU casting cost. Double key effect and fetch artifact's like the staff makes this cards a wincon).

Greenpoe

11-17-2012, 10:52 PM

Hanni

11-18-2012, 02:41 AM

Hanni, your list looks extremely strong. I spent a few hours today playtesting it, but I would suggest going -2 Mox Opal, -2 Lightning Greaves for +4 Lodestone Golem. Obviously Opal and Greaves are really good for the deck, but I think Golem is better overall and helps the bad matchups. Other than that, the list looks fantastic. I really like that you put so many of the extremely good yet also potentially awful cards as 2-ofs like Trinisphere and Staff (since Staff+Metalworker wins games, and Trinisphere can easily come out turn 1, or if not then turn 2, which Time Walks the opponent and multi-walks them if they only have 2 land- but it sucks in multiples obviously). I love how Master Transmuter is not only an enabler and lets you dodge counterspells once she's out, but also helps you fight spot removal and mass removal to an extent.

If I was going to fit in Lodestones, I'd find another way to do it.

I've run Greaves off and on for the last month or so, cutting them whenever I needed extra space, and I'm pretty sure that doing so was wrong. Aside from Chalice, this deck has no other 2 drops. While that may be great for Chalice (at 2), it can cause starts where you do nothing on turns 1 and 2... which is pretty bad. The other important part is that Lightning Greaves speeds the deck up an entire 1-2 turns, since this deck relies on creatures with activated abilities. You really, really want to be tapping the enablers the turn they come into play if you can. Add in the ability to swing with the cheated creature on the same turn, and now the deck has been accelerated by two full turns. The Shroud aspect is relevant as well. It's not a card I'd want to cut at this point. I'm only running 2 because I do not want multiples, otherwise I'd max them out.

Mox Opal is alot less important than Greaves, but I still appreciate what they do for the deck. They don't make mana on turn 1 (it is rare when they do), but they do make mana on turn 2 pretty consistently, and tap for any color of mana. The any color part is extremely relevant... my deck can be hungry for color sources sometimes. It's not mana ramp for turn 1 plays, but it is mana ramp for turn 2 plays, which is still very important. I could see maybe cutting this to a 1-of, but I'd keep at least 1.

Staff has been the most underwhelming card, so if I was going to make cuts, I'd start there. Don't get me wrong... I love the broken turn 2 wins with it + Metalworker, but it's lackluster on its own. I mean, it's decent to untap a Transmuter for double activations when I already have an ETB creature on the board, and it does draw a card for 5 mana when I've got no other action... but it's still underwhelming (without a Metalworker). I like the idea of keeping 1 as a Forgemaster target for games where I also have a Metalworker on the board... but I could justify cutting both if I needed the space.

On the other hand, Sphinx Summoner has been such a house for me. So many games have been turned around by simply resolving a Summoner when I had no other action, grabbing a Transmuter, and then using that engine to get all sorts of shit going on. I'd very much like to increase the number of these.

As strong as Lodestone Golem is, I have not found myself wanting them in very many games. 5/3's just aren't what they used to be. Duplicant is my only removal spell, and there are so many situations where Lodestones would not be able to swing. The tax effect is nice, but it doesn't stack with Trinisphere. I'm very happy with my 4/2 Chalice/Trini split right now, so I wouldn't cut the Trini's for Lodestones. My 4cc curve is already pretty dense. I think I'd rather fit in more Sphinx Summoner. I do understand how iconic Lodestone Golem is, and I'm not advocating that others don't run them... but space is tight, and I've been fine without them.

I do wish I could fit in some Wastelands, though. The only thing holding me back on that right now, is that I do not want to run more than 24 lands, and my manabase has been fantastic for me so far.

So from the list I posted:

-1 Staff
+1 Sphinx

At any rate, the list has been great for me in testing. I've smashed alot of top Tier strategies with it. I did suffer a loss to a B/G deck with Hymn, Wasteland, tons of spot removal, Sinkholes, Goyfs, Bobs, and Liliana's... but I'm thinking that's a horrible matchup regardless. I also suffered a loss to an opponent packing Null Rod, since I kept a soft hand to it with artifact lands and Moxes (and I haven't been sideboarding in anything yet).

Master Transmuter is easily my MVP. Cheating stuff into play, and then becoming an engine is just so powerful, especially since nearly everything I run has awesome ETB effects.

Summoning Sphinx has been my runner-up MVP. That guy is insane.

Forgemaster has been my weakest creature... sacrificing 3 artifacts sucks sometimes. I still feel that Forgemaster is important for consistency, though.

4 Grim Monolith (I just don't like Mox Diamond)

3 Voltaic Key (Untap Transmuter, bounce titan....)

I love Mox Diamond in my list. Tapping for any color of mana is fantastic, and it makes hands with multiple Cities/Tombs keepable.

I don't like playing 1cc spells in a deck packing 4 Chalice, and I wouldn't run Monolith without Key. I won't criticize your preference, though.

1 Spine of Ish Sah (This card is almost always usefull and with Transmuter being able to bounce it makes it even better)

I would love to run this over Duplicant, but I can tutor for Duplicant with Sphinx. I do plan on running some in the sideboard, though.

Bobmans

11-18-2012, 07:00 AM

I've been playing the previous posted list and found that the deck is much fun to pilot. As i suspected i didn't have enough blue mana open to activate the Transmuters ability in some occasions. So something with replacing the Grim Monolith's for Mox Diamond's i guess, but is there any alternative? Because i don't like to discard land as this deck can be pretty open against Wasteland's.
Also i missed the sphinx in my list to fetch the fattie as i was sometimes left with all the utility, but no goodies.
Have you also considered Fabricate? I know it's not an artifact, which makes it less flexible. But being able to fetch answers or wincons instead of the top 3 with the Mechanist could make it more of a threat.

Also i found that Tezzeret the Seeker was pretty cool. It went nuts while untapping Monoliths, Metalworkers or Transmuter into bouncing Spine, Titan or Battlesphere a couple times a turn. Combined with Greaves it was just great.

And the interaction between Master Transmuter, Voltaic Key and Seat of the Synod was terrific. Tap Seat, activate Transmuter, return tapped Seat to hand, Drop Titan, play Seat, untap Transmuter with Key, Activate Transmuter again, bounce Titan.

Anyway, what i was thinking to abuse the bounce ability, Tezzeret's search ability into lock pieces like Tangle Wire, Defense grid, Thorn of Amethyst, etc, with some combination to start the game locking out your opponent and then start some kind of beating beating with a fattie. I am not sure about what a list like that would look like. But as always with this deck, 100 cards trying to fit in a 60 card deck.

SirTylerGalt

11-18-2012, 08:11 AM

@Hanni: cool deck. I tried to build something similar a few weeks ago when bruizar mentioned Arcum Dagsson, but never really got anywhere. Here is what I had:

(WARNING: DECK NEEDS A LOT OF TUNING! DON'T PLAY THIS!)

3 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
4 Voltaic Key
4 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Thousand-Year Elixir

4 Metalworker
4 Master Transmuter
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Arcum Dagsson
3 Spellskite

1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
1 Possessed Portal
1 Batterskull

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Island
3 Wasteland

SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Null Brooch
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Contagion Engine
SB: 1 Witchbane Orb

The goal was to get an Arcum Dagsson into play, and tutor for Possessed Portal + Spine of Ish Sah for a hard lock (sacrifice Spine to Possessed Portal, replay it).

Here are a few card rationales:
- Spellskite is there to protect your other artifacts from single-target removal, and as a cheap creature to sacrifice to Arcum Dagsson.
- Cavern of Souls lets you name Artificer to protect Arcum Dagsson and Master Transmuter from counters.
- Thousand-Year Elixir is an alternative to Lightning Greaves. The problem with Greaves, is that opponents can respond to equipping by killing your threat. With Elixir, they have no window of opportunity: you can use your activated ability in response to any instant-speed removal. It also lets you untap your creatures.
- Sensei's Divining Top helps you filter the top of your deck, and comboes with Master Transmuter to draw a card (tap top, then bounce it in response).

The big problem with the deck is to get blue mana sources. You need a lot of blue mana when you want to play a Master Transmuter and activate it twice immediately (with Thousand-Year Elixir).

Also, I think that Baleful Strix could be a nice alternative to Sphinx Summoner. Its a lot cheaper, and lets you draw tons of cards thanks to Master Transmuter. It can also be sacrificed to Arcum Dagsson to tutor a bomb.