[Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

[TLK]

Definitely...after the event. Either way I'll share my experiences, good or bad. I'm pretty zoned in tho. I'm hopeful for this and will do my best!

How'd you end up doing?

[Captain Hammer]

They just spoiled an upgraded Voltaic Key.

Manifold Key 1
1: Tap: Untap another target artifact
3: Tap: Target creature can't be blocked this turn.



How essential is Chalice?

I'm wondering if it's worth it to play 10 Monoliths, 8 Voltaic Key (also untap Metalworker), a couple of Candelabra of Tawnos to pair with Cloudpost and just aim to hardcast massive Walking Ballistas and Emrakul's every game.

[Tucane]

They just spoiled an upgraded Voltaic Key.

Manifold Key 1
1: Tap: Untap another target artifact
3: Tap: Target creature can't be blocked this turn.



How essential is Chalice?

I'm wondering if it's worth it to play 10 Monoliths, 8 Voltaic Key (also untap Metalworker), a couple of Candelabra of Tawnos to pair with Cloudpost and just aim to hardcast massive Walking Ballistas and Emrakul's every game.

Sounds like too much air to me, but I may be wrong, tutors exist after all. Also london mulligan...

I'd say chalice is very essential. Sometimes it's a 2 mana game-win. Also due to the inherent inconsistency issues of playing a generic sol-land deck, we need to put cantrip based decks in a worse position from the start as often as possible.

[malfie13]

Hi guys. Sorry about the delay. I'm going to post something a little more official as time permits, but I had two big legacy weekends back to back. First I had scgcon, where I ran the list in two side events the day before the main event going 5.3, technically 5.2.1, but we played it out and I lost. I also brought stoneblade where I went 8.0 in side events. Aaaaand I played stoneblade for the main event, lol. That said. I also had a charity event last week in CT which garners a lot of people, this time 78. I went 4.3 in the main event, scooping to my mirror opponent at 3.2 in the Hope's his better breakers would put him in the t8. Sadly it didnt despite my winning the last round. I'll post a bunch of observations and recommendations for going forward in the coming days. Being a part time worker and full time dad is time draining. Lol.

[malfie13]

Ps the mirror would have been a draw

[malfie13]

Sorry about the delay. I lost my notebook in my office for like a week. Thankfully I found it. Actually my son found it entirely by accident so thank him. I'll hopefully get to type up my exact match results soon. That and ofc just general reactions and my changes since.

[malfie13]

In the meantime, who else is in love with the colorless bolas citidel and voltaic key upgrades?

[Silverflame]

Key and Forge seems hit to me (on MTG, not Keyforge).
Golos could be used to fetch something like dark depths or cloudposts, dunno. Cascading Cataracts can make his ability work, but I think just the land fetching is enough. He being a Scout is kinda upsetting.

[thefreakaccident]

Mystic Forge seems to be a really powerful inclusion to colorless decks.

[malfie13]

SCG CON 2019 Roanoke, VA. Side Events KARNPOST Report, also Gaming for Gains 8 Event Report. The following is only general observations. A Match Report will hopefully follow soon-ish.


SCG Con Decklist:
Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:3
3 Walking Ballista

Artifacts:19
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Trinisphere
4 Thran Dynamo

Others:13
4 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Ugin, the Ineffable
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands:26
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Blast Zone
1 Buried Ruin
1 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
1 Crystal Vein
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Vesuva

Sideboard:15
1 Walking Ballista
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Warping Wail

Gaming For Gains 8 Decklist:


Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:4
2 Walking Ballista
2 Thought-Knot Seer

Artifacts:19
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Trinisphere
3 Thran Dynamo

Others:12
3 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Ugin, the Ineffable
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands:26
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Blast Zone
1 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
1 Crystal Vein
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Vesuva

Sideboard:15
1 Walking Ballista
1 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Mycosynth Lattice
2 Warping Wail
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

I played only side events with MUD during SCG Con. It became clear to me that I didn't have the requisite practice and therefore familiarity with the new configuration of the deck to properly execute a clear game plan in the main tournament. I ended my two trial runs by going 2-2 in the first and 3-1 in the second. By comparison I went 8-0 in side events with two last rd splits with Stoneblade. The following weekend I played a larger local legacy event for charity in Connecticut called Gaming for Gains. I will add observations and match reports for that to this same document.

I'm going to put my topline observations first in case you don't really want to delve into the minutia of my mistakes in specific matches.

1) My game plan was much better when I had a spyglass to clearly figure out what my opponent was up to. Since SCG con I implemented some fixes that have helped immeasurably. One thing I did immediately was put in the thought knot seers in the main board. They added more information to my game plan and also became extra stone walls early in the game. I've since built all three ts into the Main Board and moved a ballista to the SB.
2) We are still weak to wasteland. Obviously we can win with zero lands in plan and lord knows I did a couple of times. That said it isn't nearly as clean or easy. Crucible is a wasted spot imo though. We have precious few flex slots. They free up a little depending on the number of the Karn, Scion of Urzas you choose to run. I've got thoughts about that....
3) Namely that Karn, SOU is generally awful. I spent a bunch of resources to cast him, and his abilities were rarely useful. You either get the lesser of two evils when plusing, spending turns and resources to cast Creator to get the exiled cards, which then you may or may not be able to cast, or other wise making a dude who cannot swing under the bridge.
4) Drawing cards is bad, putting cards is great. Narset is a pain in the ass. Generally. I kind of hope that the card bites it, but for the time being it makes our strategy better.
5) The best card in the entire deck is blast zone. Bar none. There were many games I shouldn't and couldn't have won without it. It is very hard to interact with, and most decks only have 4 wastelands and no way to recur them easily.
6) 4 Trinisphere seemed wrong and generally didn't feel necessary. I didn't see a lot of storm in either day, and even without lodestone, who I greatly miss, I didn't feel like the match was substantially worse.
7) Chalice got harder to put on not 0 or 1. We have a larger spread of relevant spell costs in our deck, making a diversified chalice spread hard. Also, it makes is less easy because we can't cavern trick in a creature through a chalice if there aren't any creatures.

Notes on specifically the MIRROR:

8) Obviously posts are symmetrical. Playing the first post is key. If you don't hit the first post, thespian's stage activation targeting posts at eot is key.
9) The win cons get really awkward. Everyone runs bridge and everyone runs needle effects, and opposing karn turns off ballista. Game gets super icky. A mb Karn Daddy (Liberated) or sb Spine of Ish Sah feels correct if the meta includes a lot of Karn on all sides. I definitely enjoyed the Liberated in my deck at Gaming for Gains, but wish to God I had the sb spine.
10) Remember that exiling an opposing artifact with anything, including TKS and Karn Daddy is temporary with opposing Karn, the Newers still active and not needled.
11) Pack your lunch. With 4 Karns, 2 Spyglasses and many ways to hit a bridge, the game is a drag out grind. Blast zone is your friend, especially if your opponent isn't running a full set.

SB Notes:

A) Now that the new mulligan is active I feel fairly confident that the correct amount of leylines is 3. We can usually hit them when needed. Also, I still like fae. They're fine. They are just not a t0 play. Either way they cannot be removed, must be seen or guessed to be needled, which they CAN BE.

B) I don't know how much Karn will be in the meta, but one thing that definitely is has become Arcanist. It has to be answered immediately or otherwise a quick bridge or something is instantly necessary. The ability to flash back almost every relevant card in the deck can be gross even with a chalice out bc of Pyromancer. I think that UR delver went from a race for chalice / 3 ball with few relevant threats other than wasteland, to a worse than toss up match. They're pretty much off price of progress, or have cut down to one bc of the lack of ability to flash back with arcanist. On the other hand they now get hit by leyline where they didn't, and can't remove it in UR. I dunno if its really great vs them anyway. They are running a main board abrade. They also get hit hard by staging a blast zone and blowing up tokens. Vesuvaing a blast zone copies and brings in on one counter, but staging it creates a zone with zero counters. Don't let them have their one drops. Their best way to overrun us is with raw card selection. Getting to multiple wasteland us and create a ton or 1xs to swing under bridge is their fastest route to victory.

C) TKS MB vs SB. I have come to the conclusion that the TKS is best served split, but I really really like them MB. Having a peek and seize effect can be meta breaking. It doesn't die to bolt, and push becomes the best one mana answer to it. It also just gives the heads up to what to play s and around g1. Post board, I like often taking TKS out vs many fair decks, but its never really turned completely off.

D) Warping Wail vs Spacial Contortion. This can be a super meta call. If you're in a meta with a lot of random creature decks, contortion can be fine. If not I like Wail better. The random hits on counter magic are real. Even things like life from the loam can be a good hit. Depends where you are in the game, but councils judgment, cataclysm, life from the loam, dark petition and infernal tutor in storm, etc – there are just so many juicy targets in an open meta. Even something as simple as protecting your hand from a thoughtseize or hymn can be very important.

E) Newlamog vs spine and or Karn, Liberated. Newlamog hits two permanents, and cannot be needled. On the other hand he costs 10, and cannot swing under bridge unless we exile out own bridge, which can be done. I like Spine best currently, for the same reason as newlamog – it cannot be needled. Additionally it is a g1 answer to generally problematic things like planeswalkers and even BTB.


Final Observations:

Chalice 1 vs voltaic key on the play is a difficult question. I have yet to completely settle, but I lean towards key. The card allows for an absurd amount of acceleration. If the t1 involves a t1 monolith, key and something else the choice is even simpler. On the draw, obviously the t1 play by the opponent tends to dictate the choice for us. If they play a blue land and hold up spell pierce or we are concerned about daze, we play which ever is more likely to helps less, which is probably key. If we are most concerned about daze, obviously we hope for sol land and key to dodge daze. Lately I have been getting mana rocks forced when playing a t1 key, so don't lean on that too, too heavily. People learn I suppose.

I'll try to put together a more match oriented observation log asap. Obviously it's been difficult for me to pull aside time lately, but I will do what I can.

[Silverflame]

SCG CON 2019 Roanoke, VA. Side Events KARNPOST Report, also Gaming for Gains 8 Event Report. The following is only general observations.

I do agree with what you are saying. I've cut down 2 Karn Scion for 2 TKS MB. Also no karakas or Urborg, and running 3 blast zone/ 1 buried ruins, what may be incorrect as my only losses were to 2 Reanimator, 2 BG Depths, 1 Eldrazi Cloudpost, 1 elves and 1 to UR dreadhorde in 25 tournament matches.
I'm finding it hard to cut Newlamog as it is great versus permission decks. Also winter orb is nice in the SB. they untap one land, we untap a cloudpost.
On GY hate I'm running 2 tormod's and 1 fairy, which is not enough. I'll probably switch to leylines and try to find a slot for Helm of Obedience.

I'm looking forward to read your report.

[malfie13]

For the sake. Confirmed. Mythic forge is bonkers. Also funny with key. Damn is that a combo. Got a miracles opponent to literally scoop in disgust.

[Silverflame]

Could potentially go into the Paradox Engine+ Mystic Forge build. Maybe with Dramatic Reversal/Paradoxical Outcome.

https://www.lmcorp.com.br/arquivos/up/cartas_bkp/images/en56sc19.jpg

[Silverflame]

I've run this list to 12th place on a 54 players tournament, losing only to T1 combos and Wrenn and Six( I already hate this thing!).
Golos is awesome

Main deck:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Thespian stage
2 Blast Zone
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
2 Vesuva
1 City of Traitors
1 Cascading Cataracts
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Walking Ballista
4 Manifold Key
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
4 Grim monolith
2 Basalt Monolith
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Mystic Forge
1 Thran Dynamo
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
3 Ugin, the Ineffable
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon


Sideboard:

1 Walking Ballista
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Trinisphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Myccosynth Lattice
1 Wurmcoil Engine

[Jorruk]

I've run this list to 12th place on a 54 players tournament, losing only to T1 combos and Wrenn and Six( I already hate this thing!).
Golos is awesome

Main deck:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Thespian stage
2 Blast Zone
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
2 Vesuva
1 City of Traitors
1 Cascading Cataracts
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Walking Ballista
4 Manifold Key
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
4 Grim monolith
2 Basalt Monolith
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Mystic Forge
1 Thran Dynamo
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
3 Ugin, the Ineffable
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon


Sideboard:

1 Walking Ballista
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Trinisphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Myccosynth Lattice
1 Wurmcoil Engine

Nice deck you got here !
But yeah, I'm not sure our deck is currently OP with W6 meta :/

[Silverflame]

Nice deck you got here !
But yeah, I'm not sure our deck is currently OP with W6 meta :/

I agree, I tried tuning it later to be more W6 friendly. The list is slightly different, now, less focused on big ballistas since W6 pushed the x/1 creatures out, but I'm still trying to find balance, any inputs would be welcome.
I really like this archetype as its one of the only ones that you actually see the opponent's hands shaking while you play. They know every card we draw may be a bomb.

[Jorruk]

I agree, I tried tuning it later to be more W6 friendly. The list is slightly different, now, less focused on big ballistas since W6 pushed the x/1 creatures out, but I'm still trying to find balance, any inputs would be welcome.
I really like this archetype as its one of the only ones that you actually see the opponent's hands shaking while you play. They know every card we draw may be a bomb.

I'm myself still on the "classic" plan with lots of PW and TKS.


Maindeck (61)
3 Walking Ballista
2 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Ugin, the Ineffable
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Manifold Key
4 Grim Monolith
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Trinisphere
1 Mystic Forge
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Blast Zone
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
2 Thespian's Stage
3 Vesuva
2 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
1 Walking Ballista
2 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Orbs of Warding
1 Mycosynth Lattice
3 Leyline of the Void

I have also tried the deck with paradox engine and mystic forge, it felt great but needed maybe just some small adjustments.
Paradox MUD:

Maindeck (60)
2 Walking Ballista
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Ugin, the Ineffable
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Manifold Key
4 Grim Monolith
1 Aetherflux Reservoir
4 Mystic Forge
4 Thran Dynamo
2 Paradox Engine
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Blast Zone
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Vesuva

Sideboard (15)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Amulet of Safekeeping
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Torpor Orb
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
1 Aetherflux Reservoir
1 Paradox Engine
1 Mycosynth Lattice
4 Leyline of the Void


Edit: added the decklists

[malfie13]

We're in the pipe to ew. I'll be posting more often on here and on the facebook machine. I want to confer about deck choices. How is everyone currently dealing with unfair decks with colorless walkers? I feel like our match is better with karn but overall worse without lodestone. Is anyone running spheres sb? It feels like it hurts our plan now that we're not on a creature heavy deck and dont get to play thorn. On the other hand, sphere is solid vs elves and other creature heavy decks. Thoughts?

[malfie13]

Current thought process is as follows (although I am likely to cut to 60):
Deck: Legacy Colorless Superfriends 9-8-19.dec

Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:4
2 Walking Ballista
2 Thought-Knot Seer

Artifacts:20
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Manifold Key
3 Grim Monolith
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Mystic Forge
3 Thran Dynamo

Others:11
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Ugin, the Ineffable
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands:26
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Blast Zone
1 Buried Ruin
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
1 Crystal Vein
4 Glimmerpost
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Throne of the High City
2 Vesuva

Sideboard:15
1 Walking Ballista
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Defense Grid
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Orbs of Warding
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Karn Liberated
1 Karakas

[malfie13]

Think I may try a 1x throne of the high city. Unless someone is a really big idiot, they side out narset vs us in control and unless we are idiots we wouldnt pop it vs aggro. Everything in between, being the monarch seems great.

[malfie13]

Considering taking the crew outta carbon freeze for a trip to scg Pennsylvania. Thoughts on the list?

Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:4
1 Walking Ballista
3 Thought-Knot Seer

Artifacts:20
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Manifold Key
3 Grim Monolith
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Mystic Forge
3 Thran Dynamo

Others:11
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Ugin, the Ineffable
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands:26
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Blast Zone
1 Buried Ruin
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
1 Crystal Vein
4 Glimmerpost
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Throne of the High City
2 Vesuva

Sideboard:15
1 Walking Ballista
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Orbs of Warding
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Warping Wail

[Grizzlenasty]

Serious question: Anybody still trying to rock the Metalworker and dudes build?

[Malfeischylde]

Serious question: Anybody still trying to rock the Metalworker and dudes build?Not recently. I'm sh** scared of just getting stuck with a karn opposing me and it has more issues making 4 mana on t1 to 2 than the colorless walker build. That said I miss my metal babies.... I'm ready for a mirror, but it is definitely still an annoying match. Big red is playing karn too, and it seems to be gaining steam even where we've lost some players.

I've given some thought to it. If karn ever get banned which wont be happening I'd be back on it in a second. Metalworker proper needs a bunch of activated mana abilities to go off, not only in early game but in mid game. On the other hand, the same manifold key is great for making a blightsteel unblockable....

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[sco0ter]

I'm sh** scared of just getting stuck with a karn opposing me

Metalworker proper needs a bunch of activated mana abilities to go off, not only in early game but in mid game.

If Karn + Metalworker is the issue, you can still run the Post manabase to cast robots instead of walkers, no?

[Airwave]

Serious question: Anybody still trying to rock the Metalworker and dudes build?

No, not at the moment. I think Wrenn & Six is the big problem here, with all the Wastelands recurrence.

I'm still trying with a Blood Sun-MUD build at the moment, but not a real contender at the moment I think.

Hopefully we'll get a nice and juicy artifact one of these days that brings us back to life :cool:

[sco0ter]

No, not at the moment. I think Wrenn & Six is the big problem here, with all the Wastelands recurrence.


Can you explain, please? Wrenn & Six cannot kill Metalworker alone (2 toughness) and recurring Wasteland is even more harmful to a Locus manabase.

[Airwave]

Can you explain, please? Wrenn & Six cannot kill Metalworker alone (2 toughness) and recurring Wasteland is even more harmful to a Locus manabase.

MUD always was weak against Wasteland strategies and there are a lot of them these days.

I don't understand about Cloudpost? What do you mean? Wasteland is a problem both for Cloudpost and non-cloudpost MUD I guess?

Maybe playing more main Spyglass could be the out here?

Btw: If we see a full uprising of Storm-decks that would be beneficial for MUD :smile:

[sco0ter]

I don't understand about Cloudpost? What do you mean? Wasteland is a problem both for Cloudpost and non-cloudpost MUD I guess?


The question was, if anybody is playing Metalworker + Robots (over Locus + Walkers, I guess?)

You answered no because of Wrenn and Wasteland, but these two cards cannot be the reason for not playing Metalworker, because they don't affect him at all.

I am not deep into this archetype, nor the metagame, but it seems Metalworker is losing popularity in MUD builds and the question was why. Maybe the answer is rather opposing Karn?

[Tucane]

The question was, if anybody is playing Metalworker + Robots (over Locus + Walkers, I guess?)

You answered no because of Wrenn and Wasteland, but these two cards cannot be the reason for not playing Metalworker, because they don't affect him at all.

I am not deep into this archetype, nor the metagame, but it seems Metalworker is losing popularity in MUD builds and the question was why. Maybe the answer is rather opposing Karn?

I'd say it's the opposing Karns and also the fact that metalworker is fragile and needs to dodge removal for a turn to do work, compared to Rock+Key into walker/mystic forge which produces value right away.

[Malfeischylde]

Just to add to this, I'm on 3 spyglass in the 75 currently, and I've not been totally blown out by wasteland decks lately. That said, I'm just not super high on worker right now. It's a very fragile 1x2. I have a serious issue chalicing 2 as often as I used to when I was on a different build, and with the density of walkers it dilutes the number of artifacts I'm physically running

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[Malfeischylde]

Also of sphere feels better than 3 ball in testing. It hits every strategy and doesnt cause a self lockout nearly as easilly

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[Grizzlenasty]

Yes I asked because of Karn and Wrenn.
Wrenn+Wasteland you can combat via Spyglass, of course. But Karn is giving me headaches.

If you were deadset on running the 12 post metalworker + lodestones, kuldothas, wurmcoils, blightsteel etc build, would you try to fit in new Karns of your own?
I tried for a few rounds and I'm not quite sure if I even like him in there.

Any suggestions on secret weapons or strategies against him?

Edit: I'm asking these questions because I had just finished the deck in paper two months prior Karns printing. I'm actually still learning it but am already really attached to these robots.

[Airwave]

I'd say it's the opposing Karns and also the fact that metalworker is fragile and needs to dodge removal for a turn to do work, compared to Rock+Key into walker/mystic forge which produces value right away.

I agree on the fragile part. Metalworker didn't see much play even before Karn was printed. There's a reason legends MUD turned into Big Eldrazi, going from metalworker build to multiple mana-rocks build.

Karn is only in red stompy and bomberman, those matchups just got a lot harder. Especially red stompy which was a pretty good matchup (apart from occasional well-timed blowouts with fiery confluence).

I feel key is to design the deck in a way that it can beat RUG delver. I've always had trouble with this matchup and Wrenn & Six doesn't make it easier :eyebrow:

[owerbart]

What's you guys opinion on Null Brooch?

[Airwave]

What's you guys opinion on Null Brooch?

I've played some in the past (in the sideboard).

It's nice with Ensnaring Bridge and Bottled Cloister. Also works with Ghirapur Orrery.

[Malfeischylde]

Cot promo alt art (that looks like city of brass) high prize for legacy champs nahttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191024/8bd962d48a46c3ab134e88c0e3bab664.jpg

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[Airwave]

Storm is growing in numbers which is good for us, alas the stupid Stifle's prevents me from trying a MUD list again for now. Hopefully they will vanish soon :confused:

[Airwave]

Storm is growing in numbers which is good for us, alas the stupid Stifle's prevents me from trying a MUD list again for now. Hopefully they will vanish soon :confused:

*POOF* :tongue:

[PuppyWuppy]

The side events at Magicfest Columbus will my first time playing MUD. I'm playing more of the older version with metalworker/blightsteel over karn/ugin. https://deckstats.net/decks/142627/1436915-mud/en
However is the karn/lattice lock just that strong of an effect with this deck that it's worth completely moving the deck towards the planeswalker style?

[malfie13]

The side events at Magicfest Columbus will my first time playing MUD. I'm playing more of the older version with metalworker/blightsteel over karn/ugin. https://deckstats.net/decks/142627/1436915-mud/en
However is the karn/lattice lock just that strong of an effect with this deck that it's worth completely moving the deck towards the planeswalker style?

This is now the thousand dollar question, tbh. Now that w6 is banned, hense poof, we should be back in business, as is lands. The walker version has a slightly lower curve to get started and doesnt utilize metalworkers due to a lower amount of artifacts. Null rod will begin to be played more bc grixis and ru delver will proliferate, which may be enough reason. Idk. Bridge will still be good, although how good I dunno. We're doing some testing locally later today and we may have more answers then. Stifle will drop a little in its utilization, but I dunno if itll totally dissapear nownthat people finally remember it exists. Walkers cannot utilize caverns either. Not 100pct but may run a defense grid sb for now. I expect miracles to also be on an uptick, so theres that.

[malfie13]

Imma try this as a starting point post w6 ban:

Deck: Legacy Colorless Superfriends 11-24-19.dec

Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:7
1 Walking Ballista
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Artifacts:18
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Manifold Key
3 Grim Monolith
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
1 Mystic Forge
2 Thran Dynamo

Others:10
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Karn, the Great Creator
2 Ugin, the Ineffable
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands:26
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Blast Zone
1 Buried Ruin
1 Cascading Cataracts
1 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
1 Crystal Vein
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
3 Thespian's Stage
3 Vesuva

Sideboard:15
1 Walking Ballista
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Defense Grid
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mystic Forge
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Batterskull
1 Orbs of Warding
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Spine of Ish Sah

[malfie13]

Yes I asked because of Karn and Wrenn.
Wrenn+Wasteland you can combat via Spyglass, of course. But Karn is giving me headaches.

If you were deadset on running the 12 post metalworker + lodestones, kuldothas, wurmcoils, blightsteel etc build, would you try to fit in new Karns of your own?
I tried for a few rounds and I'm not quite sure if I even like him in there.

Any suggestions on secret weapons or strategies against him?

Edit: I'm asking these questions because I had just finished the deck in paper two months prior Karns printing. I'm actually still learning it but am already really attached to these robots.

New karn isnt really good in a metalworker list. Its tight and wants a lot of artifacts. I think new ugin is a much better addition to metalworker mud than new karn. I dont even like old 4 mana karn either in that deck. Mythic Forge is just straight up a better card in the 4 drop spot. Also run thorns, it barely hits you in that deck and is boss prison with lodestone. If you want an actual draw Engine, ghirrapur orrery with or without bottled cloister, staff of nin, and or a second staff of dom are all better. I like the utility of second staff of dom, and always start there.

[malfie13]

So after testing yesterday I definitely liked the goloses in the build and would likely add another. I'm considering putting a wasteland in the deck since i can summon it at will though. Blast zones past 2 may be still necessary. Remember that grixis delver is still a deck. I do maybe think adding a maze of ith can be ok, although it doesnt help vs sns as much as mb bridges.

I could also be talked into a candles or another key most likely. They're both so busted in the deck.

[Grizzlenasty]

New karn isnt really good in a metalworker list. Its tight and wants a lot of artifacts. I think new ugin is a much better addition to metalworker mud than new karn. I dont even like old 4 mana karn either in that deck. Mythic Forge is just straight up a better card in the 4 drop spot. Also run thorns, it barely hits you in that deck and is boss prison with lodestone. If you want an actual draw Engine, ghirrapur orrery with or without bottled cloister, staff of nin, and or a second staff of dom are all better. I like the utility of second staff of dom, and always start there.

Oh thank you for the late answer. Figured that out myself and dropped New Karn rather quickly. It just won't fit in Metalworker MUD for various reasons.

This is the list I'm on right now. I don't play it that often, so I'm still inexperienced with it.
Do you find any major flaws? (Except for deciding for a Metalworker list to begin with)
I feel like here and there the gears aren't shifting like I would want them to.

4x Chalice of the Void
2x Trinisphere
2x Sorcerous Spyglass
4x Grim Monolith
4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
3x Kuldotha Forgemaster
3x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Staff of Domination
1x Staff of Nin
1x Spine of Ish Sah
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
3x Vesuva
3x Cavern of Souls
1x Inventors Fair
1x Buried Ruins

SB:
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Ratched Bomb
2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Spine of Ish Sah
2x All is Dust
4x Leyline of the Void
2x "flexy spots" where I use to run toys like Coercive Portal or Witchbane Orb/Orbs of warding, Trading Post and the like... Mostly Stuff that is mentioned in the Primer.

I have basically everthing I need for the Colorless Superfriends build or Welder Mud for example. But I really want to keep it 12 Post Metalworker for flavor reasons. This is "just" a pet deck of mine and I'm ok with losing a few matches to tier 1 decks. Still love the robots though and want them to do as good as possible. Keep in mind, I play against a lot of tier 2 and fringe/niche decks that are not to common nowadays. Goblins, Infect, Painter, Nic Fit, Bant, Jund, Mono Black Aggro mixed with more common DTBs. So I'm trying to build towards a very open and "unknown" field.
I also have 1 Mystic Forge. Would you play it over Staff of Nin? Or next to it? It looks kind of great, but with Metalworker I'm not sure if I want to refill my hand rather than casting of the top. Though I see the synergy between Little Ugin and Forge. Will have to try that.
Orrerys I own aswell but no Cloister.. so I'll drop that idea for now.

[malfie13]

Yes, with metalworker drawing cards can be superior to playing them off the top. With a bunch of narset and leovold gunna be back in the format you may want to consider just running 2 staff of dom. I did last time there was a lot of bug midrange, control and delver and it won me hella games.

[malfie13]

Orrery / cloister combo is best when there is a zero or whatever artifact hate meta. Like is basically going to be now. I'm less worried about getting my hand blown out than I am of getting stuck under a leo or narset

[malfie13]

Oh and the flex slots should probably be spatial contortions. Bc some stuff needs to die and occasionally it helps to kill someone with a wurmcoil. Both of which are good in the same matches.

[malfie13]

My last stable list for metalworker mud looked like this before I settled on using the Walker build:

Deck: Legacy NEW MUD 11-20-19.dec

Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:18
1 Walking Ballista
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Artifacts:17
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Staff of Domination
2 Thran Dynamo

Others:2
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands:24
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Buried Ruin
2 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
1 Crystal Vein
4 Glimmerpost
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Karakas
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Vesuva

Sideboard:15
1 Stonecoil Serpent
1 Walking Ballista
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mystic Forge
1 Orbs of Warding
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 All Is Dust
3 Leyline of the Void

[PuppyWuppy]

Been noticing lists with ensnaring bridge in the side board that is not running the karn+lattice package. Can someone explain to me what match ups is bridge brought in against?

[Grizzlenasty]

It's brought in against lists, that slam big creatures fast. Basically Sneakshow, Reanimator, Depths.

[malfie13]

I'm pretty high on MUDs placement in the current meta. So much 4c control and other control variants. There are definitely things to take into consideration that give us fits, but walkers, disruption, and prison pieces are all very good right now. I'm not sure I'm taking MUD to the upcoming 20k. But I'm seriously thinking about it. Imma include my current list below. Be happy to discuss my choices with anyone who's interested.

Deck: Legacy Colorless Mud Friends 1-14-20.dec

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:8
1 Walking Ballista
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Artifacts:19
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Manifold Key
3 Grim Monolith
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
3 Thran Dynamo

Others:8
4 Karn, the Great Creator
2 Ugin, the Ineffable
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands:25
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Blast Zone
1 Cascading Cataracts
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
1 Crystal Vein
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
2 Thespian's Stage
3 Vesuva

Sideboard:15
1 Walking Ballista
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Mystic Forge
1 Batterskull
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 All Is Dust

[malfie13]

Sb is still fluid. I have like 4 to 5 possible flex slots, and I'm not sure what to expect in an open paper meta, exactly. For example, masticore is great vs esper and bug but bad vs ur and less good vs grixis delver. Etc.

[malfie13]

Just to start conversation, I feel like warping wail is generally not great. It helps a little vs sns and snt, but not enough to be 100pct worth it. I also feel like batterskull is better than wurmcoil vs aggro due to its ability to be evasive and also just be equipped to a ballista to randomly gain life. Even if it goes to 0, it's still a germ with the activated abilities of a ballista.

[Airwave]

I'm pretty high on MUDs placement in the current meta. So much 4c control and other control variants. There are definitely things to take into consideration that give us fits, but walkers, disruption, and prison pieces are all very good right now. I'm not sure I'm taking MUD to the upcoming 20k. But I'm seriously thinking about it. Imma include my current list below. Be happy to discuss my choices with anyone who's interested.

Deck: Legacy Colorless Mud Friends 1-14-20.dec

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:8
1 Walking Ballista
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Artifacts:19
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Manifold Key
3 Grim Monolith
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
3 Thran Dynamo

Others:8
4 Karn, the Great Creator
2 Ugin, the Ineffable
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands:25
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Blast Zone
1 Cascading Cataracts
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
1 Crystal Vein
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
2 Thespian's Stage
3 Vesuva

Sideboard:15
1 Walking Ballista
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Mystic Forge
1 Batterskull
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 All Is Dust

This list really looks like the Golos 12 post lists right? No Metalwork and no Forgemaster..

Isn't the 4th Grim Monolith always better than the 3th Thran Dynamo?

Agree with you on Warping Wail & Batterskull in this list. Wurmcoil Engine really shines with goblin welder :cool:

[kathor]

Recent small tournament had a classic MUD winning the tournament. Nice to see the old list still working in the meta.
Marl Legacy Tournament 16.02.2020 (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24667&f=LE)

I think the double Lattice is interesting and the double Lightning Greaves are also new for me.

List MUD - Ludwig Künzel:
22 LANDS
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Blast Zone
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Karakas
3 Vesuva

16 CREATURES
1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine

1 INSTANTS and SORC.
1 All Is Dust
21 OTHER SPELLS
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Karn, the Great Creator
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Staff of Domination
1 Thousand-Year Elixir
3 Trinisphere
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

SIDEBOARD
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Liquimetal Coating
2 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Orbs of Warding
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Walking Ballista

[Jorruk]

Indeed, nice to see this deck again !
I don't really understand the double lattice neither, but I like double greaves + Elixir. Great against oko !

[kathor]

Indeed, nice to see this deck again !
I don't really understand the double lattice neither, but I like double greaves + Elixir. Great against oko !

Maybe because with Worker out you can just try to go for the double Lattice in a single turn or two turns in a row. Most people might counter the Lattice and tap out, because they think they have a window of opportunity. Also you can fetch from the maindeck with Kuldotha in this deck, so you might want to have a copy main and a copy in the sideboard for game 2 and 3. The opponents might hold open Swords or something like it for Blightsteel, only to find out they can't do anything anymore after Kuldotha resolved his fetch for Lattice.

[Jorruk]

Maybe because with Worker out you can just try to go for the double Lattice in a single turn or two turns in a row. Most people might counter the Lattice and tap out, because they think they have a window of opportunity. Also you can fetch from the maindeck with Kuldotha in this deck, so you might want to have a copy main and a copy in the sideboard for game 2 and 3. The opponents might hold open Swords or something like it for Blightsteel, only to find out they can't do anything anymore after Kuldotha resolved his fetch for Lattice.

Oh yeah I can see the point !
It somehow joins the draft deck I made when KGC came out.

[Malfeischylde]

This list really looks like the Golos 12 post lists right? No Metalwork and no Forgemaster..

Isn't the 4th Grim Monolith always better than the 3th Thran Dynamo?

Agree with you on Warping Wail & Batterskull in this list. Wurmcoil Engine really shines with goblin welder :cool:Yes. And I have been continuing to evolve my list and choices. Currently on 4x monoliths and 1 dynamo. Really more likely to get hit by a null rod effect than a btb effect lately anyway

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[Malfeischylde]

Deck: Legacy Colorless Mud Friends 2-20-20.dec

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:8
1 Walking Ballista
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Artifacts:17
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Manifold Key
4 Grim Monolith
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Trinisphere

Others:9
4 Karn, the Great Creator
2 Ugin, the Ineffable
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands:26
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Blast Zone
1 Buried Ruin
1 Cascading Cataracts
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
1 Crystal Vein
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
1 Labyrinth of Skophos
2 Thespian's Stage
3 Vesuva

Sideboard:15
1 Walking Ballista
1 Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Mystic Forge
1 Orbs of Warding
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Leyline of the Void


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[PuppyWuppy]

Is there a discord channel for MUD? If so can someone provide a link for me please?

[Malfeischylde]

Is there a discord channel for MUD? If so can someone provide a link for me please?There is one, but no one seems to use it. If there is an active 12post server might be better. I have zero clue if there is an active discord of either. I'd be interested tho

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[Malfeischylde]

Lol. Someone running a list very similar to mine won a dual for duals not too long ago. Good job, and congrats!

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24892&d=374189&f=LE

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[Silverflame]

Thoughts?

http://mythicspoiler.com/iko/cards/theozolithp.jpg

I'm thinking Scrapyard Recombiner and Arcbound Ravager can make this interesting by making big ballistas. You can capitalize on both Ozolith and modular at the same time.

[Airwave]

Thoughts?

http://mythicspoiler.com/iko/cards/theozolithp.jpg

I'm thinking Scrapyard Recombiner and Arcbound Ravager can make this interesting by making big ballistas. You can capitalize on both Ozolith and modular at the same time.

Useful one-off in Steel Stompy, tested it yesterday, was fun! :cool: Nonbo with Chalice ofcourse.

[Airwave]

What do you think about the new Fox.... doesn't work with chalice, but a lot of other MUD cards still work. Challenge for me is, how to disrupt the opponent without using Chalice (or Trinisphere). If we can't disrupt the opponent, the only way seems to be all-in combo I think? :eyebrow:

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Got my butt handed to me by the fox + monoliths into infi combos last night. Good times. Seems pretty strong.

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[Silverflame]

What do you think about the new Fox.... doesn't work with chalice, but a lot of other MUD cards still work. Challenge for me is, how to disrupt the opponent without using Chalice (or Trinisphere). If we can't disrupt the opponent, the only way seems to be all-in combo I think? :eyebrow:

yeah, something with 7-8 monoliths, stoneforge, welders... I wonder where I've seen those :rolleyes:
No lodestones either. Probably would be better to skip the lockpieces.

I think retrofitter would be a nice addition to go full combo. I'll try to sketch a list later.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

stoneforge, welders...

No, but I'll not say more. He's a sourcer and I'll leave it to him if he likes.

[Wanderlust]

No, but I'll not say more. He's a sourcer and I'll leave it to him if he likes.

That was me on the Fox deck! I was running the mono-R list in the opening post of the thread in N&D (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33314-Fantastic-Mr-Fox-(Zirda-Monoliths-combo)).

We do discuss some sort of MUD hybrid in the thread but losing Chalice, etc... requires a pretty different approach than traditional MUD.

[Silverflame]

No, but I'll not say more. He's a sourcer and I'll leave it to him if he likes.

Oh, I didn't mean to be rude about it, it's just that Airwave made a very interesting RW MUD list a while ago that seems to be a perfect fit for the new tech.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Oh, I didn't mean to be rude about it, it's just that Airwave made a very interesting RW MUD list a while ago that seems to be a perfect fit for the new tech.Hehe, I didn't think you were, I just wasn't sure how much Wanderlust had shared and don't like to spill the beans on other people's projects.

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[Airwave]

Oh, I didn't mean to be rude about it, it's just that Airwave made a very interesting RW MUD list a while ago that seems to be a perfect fit for the new tech.

The R/W-list was my first thought as well, but I'm not entirely sure it's the right way to go. That list functions mainly around forgemaster, but the key-search cards are banned (platinum/blightsteel :mad:)
For now I'm trying mono-white with Swords to plowshares/karakas/soul-guide to prevent losing out to some decks. Any storm will probably be lunchtime without chalice/trini :smile:

I'm playing metalworker/staff as well, staff functions as combo piece with worker and finisher with the fox. Deck feels crazy but still needs a lot of work.

I also tried the all-out-red combo list, but I'm not sure of that list yet as well. Feels powerful but glass cannon nonetheless. Maybe I played it wrong :wink: Anyway, it's nice to be brewing in this lockdown...

[Silverflame]

The R/W-list was my first thought as well, but I'm not entirely sure it's the right way to go. That list functions mainly around forgemaster, but the key-search cards are banned (platinum/blightsteel :mad:)
For now I'm trying mono-white with Swords to plowshares/karakas/soul-guide to prevent losing out to some decks. Any storm will probably be lunchtime without chalice/trini :smile:

I'm playing metalworker/staff as well, staff functions as combo piece with worker and finisher with the fox. Deck feels crazy but still needs a lot of work.

I also tried the all-out-red combo list, but I'm not sure of that list yet as well. Feels powerful but glass cannon nonetheless. Maybe I played it wrong :wink: Anyway, it's nice to be brewing in this lockdown...
I'd substitute kuldothas for KGC as you can have those in the SB. Monoliths make them easier to cast anyway.

Stoneforge with metalworker can use Umbral Mantle as a 1-of.
About the lockpieces I thought about Dovin, Hand of Control (it seems too cute though), but Orim's Chant would be necessary to stop storm. I don't think Isochron Scepter Is necessary MD, maybe as wishboard.

[Airwave]

I'd substitute kuldothas for KGC as you can have those in the SB. Monoliths make them easier to cast anyway.

Stoneforge with metalworker can use Umbral Mantle as a 1-of.
About the lockpieces I thought about Dovin, Hand of Control (it seems too cute though), but Orim's Chant would be necessary to stop storm. I don't think Isochron Scepter Is necessary MD, maybe as wishboard.

Dovin, hadn't thought of that. Might be tricky though I agree. Orim's Chant would be a great option against storm indeed, Isochron Scepter could be interesting as it also combines with both Swords to Plowshares and Enlightened Tutor.

Announcing that you have a companion is sadly a disadvantage. Opponents will know what's coming :eyebrow:

[Silverflame]

I've made a list close to what I was working prior to Ikoria, with minimum splash. It have a lot of ways to assemble a kill although it doesn't rely so much on the combo to win, you can just create lots of value and go for it.
Candles can make the 2nd mana for Zirda, but IRL you could play more furnaces and use key for them, or maybe Umbral mantle that combos with metalworker with 2 cards in hand without Zirda.


4 Ancient Tomb
2 Blast Zone
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Citanul Flute
1 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Grim Monolith
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Karakas
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Manifold Key
4 Metalworker
3 Scrapyard Recombiner
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Vesuva
3 Walking Ballista
2 Staff of Domination
1 Buried Ruin
1 Mystic Forge
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Great Furnace
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Cascading Cataracts
3 Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
1 Kuldotha Forgemaster


Sideboard
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Liquimetal Coating
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Walking Ballista
1 Pithing Needle
2 Warping Wail
1 Spatial Contortion
1 Ugin, the Ineffable
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Zirda, the Dawnwaker

[Malfeischylde]

Fox monolith seems great in a mono r prison shell. Requires some amount of thought. Looks like a great deck.

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[Malfeischylde]

Might even be a rw deck for tutors. Enlightened tutor seems fine in a mystic forge shell, for sure. Feels like the deck has more than just legs.

If we keep playing mud post, I'd suggest playing sphere of resistance or thorns mb, bc this kind of thing is going to be all over bt the fox and the other storm card

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[Airwave]

Might even be a rw deck for tutors. Enlightened tutor seems fine in a mystic forge shell, for sure. Feels like the deck has more than just legs.

If we keep playing mud post, I'd suggest playing sphere of resistance or thorns mb, bc this kind of thing is going to be all over bt the fox and the other storm card

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That would be great, unfortunately that wouldn't work with our new company (no activated ability!)

@silverflame: nice list! Always like the candelabra! Watch out with Vesuva though, it has the same problem as above. It's one of the few lands we can't use, same goes for Urborg...

Btw: I'd recommend anyone playing Storm to use the fox as well. Nice tool to confuse opponents game 1 :laugh:

[PuppyWuppy]

Serious question: Anybody still trying to rock the Metalworker and dudes build?

I am

[Silverflame]

So apparently Companions are here to stay, so don't dismiss Jegantha, the Wellspring as a free card to be played with Golos and Cascading Cataracts if you are not running chalice of the void and walking ballista MD.

[Silverflame]

could improve further the Jegantha-Golos build or be useful on Welder/thopter lists

https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/3/a/3af78d76-ad5c-44ba-880d-b834bcde5398.jpg?1591368099

[Silverflame]

not sure how I feel about this little guy

https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/c/2/c29d9617-734a-4516-882e-661b3effb569.jpg?1591364883

[Grizzlenasty]

not sure how I feel about this little guy


I feel like this might have crazy potential.. thinking of you Welder.

[PuppyWuppy]

not sure how I feel about this little guy

https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/c/2/c29d9617-734a-4516-882e-661b3effb569.jpg?1591364883

The card seems playable. Great against oko and other planeswalkers. Especially when there is chalice on one in the field.

[owerbart]

I've been trying to pull off a Traxos list for MUD. The card seems like it could be a big beater and it gives a purpose to manifold key beyond grim monolith :smile:

4 Grim Monolith
4 Manifold Key
1 Staff of Domination
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinisphere
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Nin
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Throne of the High City
3 Karn, the Great Creator

2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trading Post
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Walking Ballista
4 Leyline of the Void

I wanted to bring back old school elements like lodestone golem and kuldotha forgemaster, but now with Traxos you can have another big beater
. Tried to stay away from the 12post manabase since you can lower the curve because you don't have that "big mana" payout card like emrakul or kozi. The Karn package looks hella sketchy tho. :frown:

[Silverflame]

Interesting. Not confirmed yet, though.

https://i0.wp.com/mtgazone.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/crawlingbarrensleak.png?w=450&ssl=1

[Airwave]

So Oko is dead. Anyone going for MUD-comeback?

[Reeplcheep]

I think steel stompy might be able to come back, but MUD is dead imo.

The point of MUD is to make a ton of colourless mana early in the game. A lot of the best colourless threats are not artifacts any more: karn tgc, 6 cmc Ugin, TKS, reality smasher, all is dust. Metalworker, like Urza tron, just seems to be more vulnerable and inconsistent at making lots of mana than the alternatives. More Keys plus more monoliths (karn turbo forge), cloud post + eye of Ugin (eldrazi post) or even coretapper (dice factory) do the same thing better.

If you are splashing it’s hard to compete with urza echo and titanpost for speed and resilience respectively.

[Airwave]

I think steel stompy might be able to come back, but MUD is dead imo.

The point of MUD is to make a ton of colourless mana early in the game. A lot of the best colourless threats are not artifacts any more: karn tgc, 6 cmc Ugin, TKS, reality smasher, all is dust. Metalworker, like Urza tron, just seems to be more vulnerable and inconsistent at making lots of mana than the alternatives. More Keys plus more monoliths (karn turbo forge), cloud post + eye of Ugin (eldrazi post) or even coretapper (dice factory) do the same thing better.

If you are splashing it’s hard to compete with urza echo and titanpost for speed and resilience respectively.

I agree, a lot of colorless threats are not artifacts at the moment. But I guess it will only be a matter of time when wizards decides to print some outrageous artifacts. When that time comes MUD could come back I guess :cool:

[Reeplcheep]

If you replace the metalworker and forge master with mystic forge/inventors fair/basalt monolith your deck could be really good and you could still play all the tutorable hate pieces. IMO 8 keys 8 monoliths is way more consistent than 4 keys 4 monoliths 4 metalworker 4 forgemaster because of cross synergy, haste, and avoiding removal.

Mystic forge is absolutely busted and gives you a good reason to stay away from non-artifact threats or cloud post, so the deck should have a niche.

[whatwas]

https://youtu.be/7SOEQqY_18A

My donation deck for the Bosh n Roll Youtube channel was MUD.

I have an updated list I played in a small 3 round Paper Legacy Discord tournament too, it is a STAX build and I went 2-0-1. I will link that as well. Good to be back 😁

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/f540RKAcY0OZHj62jujYqQ

[Airwave]

http://mythicspoiler.com/brw/cards/urzasworkshop.jpg

If it has a home anywhere it would be in MUD I guess. I'm not completely sure yet, playing 12-tron or only urza's saga (or factory?!) to bump it... not coming into play tapped is really nice though. Metalcraft is tricky - maybe you'd need opal or petals to get there sooner?

T1 Tomb, Chalice/Greaves
T2 Urza's Saga Trini/Metal
T3 Urza's Workshop Karn
T4 Urza's Workshop Sundering Titan? :smile:


What do you think?

[Albarkhane]

http://mythicspoiler.com/brw/cards/urzasworkshop.jpg

If it has a home anywhere it would be in MUD I guess. I'm not completely sure yet, playing 12-tron or only urza's saga (or factory?!) to bump it... not coming into play tapped is really nice though. Metalcraft is tricky - maybe you'd need opal or petals to get there sooner?

T1 Tomb, Chalice/Greaves
T2 Urza's Saga Trini/Metal
T3 Urza's Workshop Karn
T4 Urza's Workshop Sundering Titan? :smile:


What do you think?

I am not sure Tron can be efficiently played in Legacy. On the other hand Urza's saga is already great on its own, factory used to be played quite lot and might pass the cut in the right deck.

Metalcraft if not so difficult to get but the real question is to know if that card is better than the possible alternatives. Do we need it while we have access to several moxen or mana artifacts ? It looks like a nice card that could deserve some tests but i am not overly optimistic. The card is quite slow and with a not so easy setup if one wants to produce lots of mana. I am not sure the meta is good for such decks now.

By the way, it is fun to see they finally made a try at mending Mishra's workshop ;)

[snugar_i]

factory used to be played quite lot and might pass the cut in the right deck.
Do you really mean Urza's Factory? Because that's the one we'd have to play unfortunately, not Mishra's Factory

[whatwas]

T1 Tomb, Chalice/Greaves
T2 Urza's Saga Trini/Metal
T3 Urza's Workshop Karn
T4 Urza's Workshop Sundering Titan? :smile:


What do you think?

All those Leyline Binding decks won't know what hit 'em! :wink:

[whatwas]

http://mythicspoiler.com/brw/cards/urzasworkshop.jpg

What do you think?

I like the idea of the card. It would've been better had it been "Metalcraft - T: Add :3: " or "T: Add X, return workshop to owners hand if you control less than one artifact."

Urza's Saga is the only Urza's land worth playing in Legacy atm, but it only stays in play for a couple turns on it's own. So there really isn't much you can do with this card unless Urza buys more real estate. The whole flavor of Urza is delayed payoffs, and ain't nobody got time for that.

I will say that the Brothers' War really hits the spot for me since my MUD deck will actually look like mud now. The retro frame cards for 8Cast and Mystic Forge are the cherry on top.
Portal to Phyrexia seems like a cool inclusion for Welder decks also.
Liberator, Urza's Battlethopter also looks like a fun addition for MUD also.

[Michael Keller]

I like the idea of the card. It would've been better had it been "Metalcraft - T: Add :3: "

Lol.

That card would be preemptively banned in Legacy. Book on that.

[whatwas]

https://www.mythicspoiler.com/one/cards/monumenttoperfection1.jpg
Might be a fun one-of

[Airwave]

http://mythicspoiler.com/brw/cards/urzasworkshop.jpg

If it has a home anywhere it would be in MUD I guess. I'm not completely sure yet, playing 12-tron or only urza's saga (or factory?!) to bump it... not coming into play tapped is really nice though. Metalcraft is tricky - maybe you'd need opal or petals to get there sooner?

T1 Tomb, Chalice/Greaves
T2 Urza's Saga Trini/Metal
T3 Urza's Workshop Karn
T4 Urza's Workshop Sundering Titan? :smile:


What do you think?

Apparently it does have a home in Mystic/Ring decks, hard for MUD to make a comeback with all these Null Rod's :confused:

[FTW]

Karn Forge is a better shell than summoning sick Metalworker. It's taken over the same design space. You could try playing those cards in MUD, do you even get much keeping Metalworker in the deck?

Otherwise they already run Sol Lands, Saga, Key, Monolith, faster acceleration, big colorless payoffs. Karn means they're preboarded 4xNull Rod for the mirror, while MUD's Lodestone Golem is anti-boarded for the mirror.