[Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

[movingtonewao]

I think Sphinx Summomer is an essential piece it helps you find either an enabler (transmuter, metalworker) or a finisher (blightsteel) when you need it.

[Ttvetjanu]

A lot of interesting/wierd builds going on. Not entirely sure on how powerful those decks are. My main concern is on the minor adjustments making the deck tier1. Currently the most difficult matchups for me are rug delver and bug (discard, wasteland and deeds are bad). I've mostly decided that bug is a bad matchup that has to be won with karn or a very good hand. Rug I think is beatable but very difficult. Having to play around spell pierce, fow and daze is very annoying, especially if they have a threat. On the other hand if a chalice or trinisphere resolves it seems much better. My initial plan was playing a must-counter defense grid and afterwards hopefully dropping wurmcoils and batterskulls to make it very difficult for them to win. Playing red lands and blood moons on the side also seem like a valid plan against rug and bug.

[movingtonewao]

you are pretty much spot on. MUD/metalworker is an "all in" deck and that makes it really vulnerable to counterspells in general. Playing smart is very useful, but against a good player they still have the upper hand.

[Hanni]

Have you also considered Fabricate? I know it's not an artifact, which makes it less flexible. But being able to fetch answers or wincons instead of the top 3 with the Mechanist could make it more of a threat.

Yes I did test with Fabricate a bit. It was a good card, but I prefer Mechanist because it gives me a 2/2 flying body and is an engine with Transmuter, but I'm not opposed to trying to fit Fabricate back into the list again at some point.


But as always with this deck, 100 cards trying to fit in a 60 card deck.

Yea, that's always the case.


- Spellskite is there to protect your other artifacts from single-target removal, and as a cheap creature to sacrifice to Arcum Dagsson.

Spellskite is something I was considering, but the deck only has so much room for protection, and I felt that Trinisphere was stronger overall. Spellskite is a strong card though, so at the very least, I'd run Spellskites in my sideboard to deal with decks with lots of spot removal.


- Thousand-Year Elixir is an alternative to Lightning Greaves. The problem with Greaves, is that opponents can respond to equipping by killing your threat. With Elixir, they have no window of opportunity: you can use your activated ability in response to any instant-speed removal. It also lets you untap your creatures.

As a setup spell, I find the cost difference between 2cc and 3cc can be a big deal.

I do like the idea of ignoring spot removal though, and the untap effect is awesome too. Then again, the ability to move the Greaves over to a fattie on the same turn to swing is also awesome.

I think both are solid cards.


The big problem with the deck is to get blue mana sources. You need a lot of blue mana when you want to play a Master Transmuter and activate it twice immediately (with Thousand-Year Elixir).

I've never had issues with blue sources, although occasionally it can be difficult for me to hit UB. Then again, I'm running 3 more Islands than you, and 4 Mox Diamond.


Also, I think that Baleful Strix could be a nice alternaive to Sphinx Summoner. Its a lot cheaper, and lets you draw tons of cards thanks to Master Transmuter. It can also be sacrificed to Arcum Dagsson to tutor a bomb.

The difficulty in casting Sphinx is not because it's 5cc... it's because of the UB. Also, drawing a random card off the top is incomparable to tutoring for any creature. Sphinx + Transmuter is a much stronger card advantage engine than Strix + Transmuter.

You're list is focused more on noncreature artifacts because of Arcum though, so Sphinx may be less useful for you than it is for me.


A lot of interesting/wierd builds going on. Not entirely sure on how powerful those decks are. My main concern is on the minor adjustments making the deck tier1. Currently the most difficult matchups for me are rug delver and bug (discard, wasteland and deeds are bad). I've mostly decided that bug is a bad matchup that has to be won with karn or a very good hand. Rug I think is beatable but very difficult. Having to play around spell pierce, fow and daze is very annoying, especially if they have a threat. On the other hand if a chalice or trinisphere resolves it seems much better. My initial plan was playing a must-counter defense grid and afterwards hopefully dropping wurmcoils and batterskulls to make it very difficult for them to win. Playing red lands and blood moons on the side also seem like a valid plan against rug and bug.


you are pretty much spot on. MUD/metalworker is an "all in" deck and that makes it really vulnerable to counterspells in general. Playing smart is very useful, but against a good player they still have the upper hand.

I don't know about you guys, but I've been beating most blue decks. Cavern of Souls is ridiculously good, and the majority of my creatures are either Construct or Artificer. Trinisphere screws with free countermagic like Daze and Force of Will too, and is still fantastic against cheap countermagic like Spell Pierce.

Against RUG Delver in particular, a resolved Chalice at 1 is literally gg, although Trinisphere can be a beating as well. This is one of the matchups where I wish I was running some Wastelands though, since sometimes all it takes is 1-2 Wasteland to mana/color screw them out of the game. Regardless, I've found RUG to be a good matchup.

It's the various B/G/x combinations that I've had the most trouble with, regardless of the third color, and regardless if its tempo, aggro, control, or some combination of those. I definitely think addressing those matchups with an adequate number of versatile sideboard cards is a must.

[SirTylerGalt]

The difficulty in casting Sphinx is not because it's 5cc... it's because of the UB. Also, drawing a random card off the top is incomparable to tutoring for any creature. Sphinx + Transmuter is a much stronger card advantage engine than Strix + Transmuter.

You're list is focused more on noncreature artifacts because of Arcum though, so Sphinx may be less useful for you than it is for me.


Wow. For some reason, I mixed up Sphinx Summoner and Faerie Mechanist abilities. I thought Sphinx looked at the top 3 cards... Sphinx is indeed awesome!

[Alex Holland]

Wow. For some reason, I mixed up Sphinx Summoner and Faerie Mechanist abilities. I thought Sphinx looked at the top 3 cards... Sphinx is indeed awesome!

I think it utterly sucks. with al due respect. But why in heaven sakes would you play a 5 mana 2 color creature? because a 3/3 flying so good? Well its not. We dont need 3/3 flyers.

I used to play faerie stompy about a thousand years ago. (really!) Thats why i noticed that they made a really good card for it some time ago: treasure mage. (2)(u) search for a artifact with 6 or more mana. well thats about all the big forgemaster dudes wich could eventually be cheated with transmuter. So for (2)(u)(u) you can search and find and play a fattie.

Another card wich i think needs consigering is cloud of faeries. a 1/1 flyer for (1)(u) wich untaps two lands. I used in stompy to untap a tomb and city for it; so actually it is a accelarator as wel as a chump blocker or hitter. Very good.

apart from the sphinx why no u. seas? u know u need them right :laugh:

[Ttvetjanu]

I don't know about you guys, but I've been beating most blue decks. Cavern of Souls is ridiculously good, and the majority of my creatures are either Construct or Artificer. Trinisphere screws with free countermagic like Daze and Force of Will too, and is still fantastic against cheap countermagic like Spell Pierce.

Against RUG Delver in particular, a resolved Chalice at 1 is literally gg, although Trinisphere can be a beating as well. This is one of the matchups where I wish I was running some Wastelands though, since sometimes all it takes is 1-2 Wasteland to mana/color screw them out of the game. Regardless, I've found RUG to be a good matchup.

It's the various B/G/x combinations that I've had the most trouble with, regardless of the third color, and regardless if its tempo, aggro, control, or some combination of those. I definitely think addressing those matchups with an adequate number of versatile sideboard cards is a must.

Have you played any tournaments with this version? I've top8 (2 finals) with the more average stompy version 5 times. I'm trying to figure out the true power level of the deck. For me it just seems too clunky to be good.

[Greenpoe]

apart from the sphinx why no u. seas? u know u need them right :laugh:

If he wanted non-basics, Darkwater Catacombs is plain better while dodging some hate (islandwalking Merfolk, Sundering Titan). That land by itself manafixes for Sphinx by itself.

[Hanni]

I think it utterly sucks. with al due respect. But why in heaven sakes would you play a 5 mana 2 color creature? because a 3/3 flying so good? Well its not. We dont need 3/3 flyers.

Did you read the text below the flying part? If it was just 5 mana for a 3/3 flier, I wouldn't be running it. And for the record, I'd much rather have a 3/3 flying body than a 5/3 body, if we're ignoring the other effects of the cards.


I used to play faerie stompy about a thousand years ago. (really!) Thats why i noticed that they made a really good card for it some time ago: treasure mage. (2)(u) search for a artifact with 6 or more mana. well thats about all the big forgemaster dudes wich could eventually be cheated with transmuter. So for (2)(u)(u) you can search and find and play a fattie.

Sure, if you already have a Transmuter on the board, you can tutor up a 6cc artifact to put on the board... but that's pretty limited in scope, don't you think? And nonartifact vanilla 2/2 bodies in a deck with no equipment doesn't make much sense to me either. Why not just run Fabricate instead?

I'm not sure what relevance Treasure Mage has with Forgemaster, but I digress.


Another card wich i think needs consigering is cloud of faeries. a 1/1 flyer for (1)(u) wich untaps two lands. I used in stompy to untap a tomb and city for it; so actually it is a accelarator as wel as a chump blocker or hitter. Very good.

Even in a situation where you can untap two Sol lands with Cloud of Faeries, that still seems extremely underwhelming. I don't know if you mistook my list as an attempt to build an artifact Faerie Stompy deck, but nonartifact 1/1 fliers with no utility in a deck with no equipment is pretty awful, especially in a list that wants lots of artifacts.


apart from the sphinx why no u. seas? u know u need them right :laugh:

Oh really? I guess the Vaults, Moxes, occasionally the Caverns, or ignoring the cost altogether with Transmuter, doesn't look like enough on paper. Rest assured, I'm satisfied with my color sources right now. I was running Underground Seas before, and I know that I'm already running a manabase that is vulnerable to Wastelands, but I swapped them to Islands when I originally cut down on Sphinx. The basic Islands have been a nice addition. If I go back up to 4 Sphinx, maybe I'll go back to Seas instead, but I've been able to consistently drop Sphinx as-is, so who knows.


Have you played any tournaments with this version? I've top8 (2 finals) with the more average stompy version 5 times. I'm trying to figure out the true power level of the deck. For me it just seems too clunky to be good.

No, I have not. I haven't played in a paper magic tournament since the original GP Columbus, back in like 2007 I think. I've been playtesting the list for a while, someone asked what the list currently looked like, so I decided to share it with everyone.

The Welder versions, Stompy versions, and Godo versions are all great versions of the deck. My list is not an attempt to discredit the other versions whatsoever. What's wrong with adding some more viable variants to this thread?

I can sympathize with the deck 'looking' clunky, but let's be honest, most MUD decks look clunky. My goal with the blue splash was to make the 'bigger bombs' plan more consistent and robust. In my list, the consistency is increased with draw (Mechanist), tutors (Sphinx), and more density of enablers (Transmuter). The deck gets its robustness from the card advantage engine (Transmuter + ETB effects). My list does retain a stompy backup plan, with 2/2 and 3/3 fliers, instead of the usual 5/3's and 6/6's. The fliers are not as aggressive, but they do push damage through against chump blockers, which is nice.

tl;dr What my version lacks in streamlined consistency compared to the Stompy versions, it makes up for with more frequently broken plays.

I can start up a thread in N&D for the blue splash if people don't feel that it is competitive enough to be discussed in this thread.

[Ttvetjanu]

No, I have not. I haven't played in a paper magic tournament since the original GP Columbus, back in like 2007 I think. I've been playtesting the list for a while, someone asked what the list currently looked like, so I decided to share it with everyone.

The Welder versions, Stompy versions, and Godo versions are all great versions of the deck. My list is not an attempt to discredit the other versions whatsoever. What's wrong with adding some more viable variants to this thread?

I can sympathize with the deck 'looking' clunky, but let's be honest, most MUD decks look clunky. My goal with the blue splash was to make the 'bigger bombs' plan more consistent and robust. In my list, the consistency is increased with draw (Mechanist), tutors (Sphinx), and more density of enablers (Transmuter). The deck gets its robustness from the card advantage engine (Transmuter + ETB effects). My list does retain a stompy backup plan, with 2/2 and 3/3 fliers, instead of the usual 5/3's and 6/6's. The fliers are not as aggressive, but they do push damage through against chump blockers, which is nice.

tl;dr What my version lacks in streamlined consistency compared to the Stompy versions, it makes up for with more frequently broken plays.

I can start up a thread in N&D for the blue splash if people don't feel that it is competitive enough to be discussed in this thread.

I like that you are offering many different versions of the deck; the list of possible sideboards was also great. I'm strongly considering maindecking grim poppets as it seems great against Maverick and similar creature decks. In my personal opinion I think that the list I've currently been testing (+-4-5 cards) could possibly be tweaked to tier1 depending of course on the meta. That is my main concern; especially now that we're having a national legacy championship tournament in the next month. I've played the Godo version and the Forgemaster version in multiple LGS minor tournaments (15-30 people) and personally I've felt that the stompy version (running two maindeck staff of nin and two karn+ two on side) is the strongest of the bunch.

[Alex Holland]

Did you read the text below the flying part? If it was just 5 mana for a 3/3 flier, I wouldn't be running it. And for the record, I'd much rather have a 3/3 flying body than a 5/3 body, if we're ignoring the other effects of the cards.

Sure, if you already have a Transmuter on the board, you can tutor up a 6cc artifact to put on the board... but that's pretty limited in scope, don't you think? And nonartifact vanilla 2/2 bodies in a deck with no equipment doesn't make much sense to me either. Why not just run Fabricate instead?

I'm not sure what relevance Treasure Mage has with Forgemaster, but I digress.



I have read the sphinx card. And its utterly horrible- just horrible. I pointed out its a 3/3 flyer because that must be the reason your adding a 5 mana 2 color card to the deck. Because blue has litterly a zillion other cards to draw in to your pieces, cards wich are cheaper than 5 mana and dont invlove 2 colors. Its just a crazy plan in my opinion. You may think different.

treasure mage has a synergy with transmuter. For 2U you search what you want transmuter to put on the board. thats good. better then intuition wich i tought of before, plus he is a human- just as transmuter. So you could name human with cavern of souls. Being les dependasnt on blue mana sources.

Makes me want to make UR Human MUD. with godo, transmuter..

[Hanni]

I have read the sphinx card. And its utterly horrible- just horrible.

Are you basing that on theoretical opinion, or did you try using it and determined that it was utterly horrible? Between 8 Sol lands and 6 Moxes, it is not impossible for me to make 3UB on as early as turn 2 without Metalworker, and the deck can consistently hit 3UB on turns 3-4 without Metalworker. With Metalworker, sometimes the deck can not only pay the 3UB for Sphinx, it can also put the card I grabbed with Sphinx into play on the same turn. Not to mention that Transmuter can cheat Sphinx into play if I cannot hit 3UB el natural... which then of course can become a +CA engine should I need to grind things out against something like Control.

I mean sure, I could run Fabricate instead, but there's a big difference between the two. Sphinx is first and foremost an artifact, so even when it's just sitting in hand, it's making 2 mana for Metalworker. When I drop a Mechanist, it's something I can actually draw into. When it resolves, it's an artifact body I can sacrifice to Foregmaster or bounce with Transmuter. It's a 3/3 flying body that can smack the opponent in the face while I'm setting up my other engines. It's +CA on a 3/3 flying body... I hate to tell you, but there are no other artifact creatures that tutor for artifact creatures, let alone ones that tutor for ANY artifact creature. Trust me, I've looked. There are a couple of noncreature artifacts that can tutor, but they are pretty bad. The best one I've found is Skyship Weatherlight, which is worse than Sphinx.


I pointed out its a 3/3 flyer because that must be the reason your adding a 5 mana 2 color card to the deck. Because blue has litterly a zillion other cards to draw in to your pieces, cards wich are cheaper than 5 mana and dont invlove 2 colors. Its just a crazy plan in my opinion. You may think different.

The reason why I'm running it is multi-faceted. I'm running it because it's an artifact that tutors for any artifact creature, first and foremost, but the 3/3 flying body is icing on the cake. Instead of paying 2U for a do-nothing tutor (i.e Fabricate), I'm paying an additional 1B for a 3/3 flying artifact body attached. Sphinx itself is +CA, and this is a MUD deck, meaning I can hit 5 mana consistently. If you're trying to say that I can't hit 5 mana, and want to argue that the deck shouldn't be running 5cc creatures, then how in the hell are people dropping Godo's and Wurmcoil's for 6? If you're trying to say that paying 5 mana for a 3/3 flying body that puts any artifact creature from my library into my hand isn't worth 5 mana, then I disagree with you on that 100%... especially when Transmuter abuses ETB effects.

However, my guess is that you are assuming that I cannot make the UB. That makes the most sense based on all of the statements you've made against Sphinx so far, considering statements like...


apart from the sphinx why no u. seas? u know u need them right :laugh:

At this point, I'll let you assume that I have problems making colored mana, since there's no point in beating a dead horse over Sphinx when your issue is its UB cost. I'm satisfied with my color sources to the point where I'm running basic Islands instead of Underground Seas. If at some point you decide to try out the manabase, cannot reliably make colored mana, swap the Islands to Seas, and still cannot reliably make colored mana, then fine. That still wouldn't change my opinion on Sphinx, since I have not had issues with color sources, but I would at least understand why you didn't like Sphinx at that point. For now though, I feel that I have said enough regarding Sphinx.


treasure mage has a synergy with transmuter. For 2U you search what you want transmuter to put on the board. thats good. better then intuition wich i tought of before, plus he is a human- just as transmuter. So you could name human with cavern of souls. Being les dependasnt on blue mana sources.

Treasure Mage is horrible. It's bad when you don't already have an enabler on the board. It's bad when you have it in your hand and wish it could make mana for Metalworker. It's bad when you see it in the top 3 for Mechanist. It's bad when you want to sac it to Forgemaster or bounce it back for +CA with Transmuter. The only time it's not bad is when you already have an enabler on the board... but what are you doing with a 2/2 nonartifact body, exactly? Chump blocking once? Why wouldn't you simply play more 6cc+ fatties instead? To toolbox? At least Fabricate can tutor for a fatty OR and enabler. Treasure Mage is horrible.


Makes me want to make UR Human MUD. with godo, transmuter..

Not really sure how that's going to work out for you, when Transmuter cannot cheat Godo into play because he's not an artifact, and therefore cannot abuse his ETB effect either.

[Hanni]

Forgot to respond to this:


I like that you are offering many different versions of the deck; the list of possible sideboards was also great. I'm strongly considering maindecking grim poppets as it seems great against Maverick and similar creature decks. In my personal opinion I think that the list I've currently been testing (+-4-5 cards) could possibly be tweaked to tier1 depending of course on the meta. That is my main concern; especially now that we're having a national legacy championship tournament in the next month. I've played the Godo version and the Forgemaster version in multiple LGS minor tournaments (15-30 people) and personally I've felt that the stompy version (running two maindeck staff of nin and two karn+ two on side) is the strongest of the bunch.

Grim Poppet is a solid choice, but I'm thinking it's better off as a sideboard card vs those decks. Duplicant already deals with any targetable creature, and can become a removal engine with Transmuter. It deals with Griselbrand and Emrakul too, which is nice. I'd bring Grim Poppet in against decks like Goblins and Maverick. Triskelion is also an option, since it costs 1 mana less and deals damage instead of counters (i.e can go to the dome), as well as Triskelavus, since it can make 1/1 fliers when you don't need the removal.

If anyone does end up trying out the U/b version, I'd love to hear about the results.

[ToasTer86]

If anyone does end up trying out the U/b version, I'd love to hear about the results.

I tested the deck on cockatrice yesterday only 1 game didnt have a lot of time but it was nice.

First game T1 ( ancient tomb - seat - city - 2x mox daimond - transmuter - sphinx)
Ancient tomb - 2x Mox for seat+city of traitors - for transmuter
opponent drops forest - plays an elf
T2 - I draw Blightsteel colossus (nice draw :P) i play blightsteel with transmuter.
opponents scoops and leaves game.

Wil test more tonight and let you know. I havent made a sideboard yet though, I cant decide.

[Hanni]

I tested the deck on cockatrice yesterday only 1 game didnt have a lot of time but it was nice.

First game T1 ( ancient tomb - seat - city - 2x mox daimond - transmuter - sphinx)
Ancient tomb - 2x Mox for seat+city of traitors - for transmuter
opponent drops forest - plays an elf
T2 - I draw Blightsteel colossus (nice draw :P) i play blightsteel with transmuter.
opponents scoops and leaves game.

Wil test more tonight and let you know. I havent made a sideboard yet though, I cant decide.

That's not really a fair assessment, though. You got a broken start against a relatively non-interactive deck. Had the Transmuter been countered or hit with removal, it would have been a different experience. Although, you did have Sphinx, so 1 more mana source would have gotten you right back into the game (if it resolved).

Either way though, that's not too far from how alot of games turn out. Not quite as fast as 4 mana on turn 1 for turn 2 Blightsteel, but you drop an early bomb that the opponent either has to have an answer for, or you blow them out. If they do, you keep playing till you drop another bomb, rinse and repeat. And so it goes.

[(nameless one)]

Please tell me that you guys are including Chalice of the Void and to some extent Spellskite to this Transmuter list.

I used to test Transmuter as well (but went back to a more traditional Welder build). My prototype only ran two but the other key card on that was Birthing Pod. Yes, Birthing Pod.

It was nice to go from Metalworker to Transmuter via Pod. Also, with Spellskite, it wasn't an issue to get Metalworker consistently. You can even Pod Transmuter into Summoner (and get Scarecrone to get a chain going)

The main problem I had with Pod was the life lost. Ancient Tomb sometimes is too much. But if you have the patience and better understanding of what's happening between you and your opponent, it can work like a dream. That built was slower too, but it was somehow more consistent. Chalice does a fine job of slowing your opponent anyways.

[Hanni]

Please tell me that you guys are including Chalice of the Void and to some extent Spellskite to this Transmuter list.

U/b Masterworker

// Lands (24)
4 [MR] Island
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures (21)
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [ARC] Master Transmuter
4 [DDF] Faerie Mechanist
3 [CFX] Sphinx Summoner
2 [SOM] Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 [MR] Duplicant
1 [SOM] Myr Battlesphere
1 [DS] Sundering Titan
1 [MBS] Blightsteel Colossus

// Spells (15)
1 [FD] Staff of Domination
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [MR] Lightning Greaves
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

For my list, Spellskite is likely going to be a sideboard card for heavy spot removal decks. I feel that Trinisphere is a better disruption/protection spell in the maindeck because it deals with more than just spot removal. I would like to work on fitting in some Wastelands, though.

The weakest card in my list right now is Staff, which may end up being something else soon.


I used to test Transmuter as well (but went back to a more traditional Welder build). My prototype only ran two but the other key card on that was Birthing Pod. Yes, Birthing Pod.

If you go back to the previous page, Birthing Pod is one of the cards listed in my sideboard (it's not really a sideboard, but a collection of ideas). That's not really the route I want to go in with my list, though.

EDIT: I'd like to try and continue focusing on powerful ETB effects to get the most out of Transmuter. If I do cut Staff, I am leaning towards Triskelavus as the replacement. I like that when I don't need the removal, it can still spit out 1/1 fliers every turn for value with Transmuter, it can provide reach when necessary, and it deals with multiple X/1's even without Transmuter . Unlike Triskelion or Grim Poppet, its effect costs mana... but it also has flying, a pretty consistent theme in my list, which has been great for pushing damage through. It's also a Construct, which plays nice with Cavern of Souls when hardcast or cast off of a Metalworker.

[Ttvetjanu]

EDIT: I'd like to try and continue focusing on powerful ETB effects to get the most out of Transmuter. If I do cut Staff, I am leaning towards Triskelavus as the replacement. I like that when I don't need the removal, it can still spit out 1/1 fliers every turn for value with Transmuter, it can provide reach when necessary, and it deals with multiple X/1's even without Transmuter . Unlike Triskelion or Grim Poppet, its effect costs mana... but it also has flying, a pretty consistent theme in my list, which has been great for pushing damage through. It's also a Construct, which plays nice with Cavern of Souls when hardcast or cast off of a Metalworker.

I think the mana cost is a major issue; you really need to cast it with 2-3 mana open otherwise you defeat the purpose of playing it. I liked Grim Poppet so much because it allows you to have a major impact on the board as soon as it resolves; removal is a big issue for this deck.

[Bobmans]

That's not really a fair assessment, though. You got a broken start against a relatively non-interactive deck. Had the Transmuter been countered or hit with removal, it would have been a different experience. Although, you did have Sphinx, so 1 more mana source would have gotten you right back into the game (if it resolved).

Either way though, that's not too far from how alot of games turn out. Not quite as fast as 4 mana on turn 1 for turn 2 Blightsteel, but you drop an early bomb that the opponent either has to have an answer for, or you blow them out. If they do, you keep playing till you drop another bomb, rinse and repeat. And so it goes.

If this would have been Game 2/3, then it was just pity that the Sphinx wasn't a Greaves equipping the Colussus Turn 2 FTW.

Next to the FoW the Transmuter would have caught, it is not unthinkable that in the following turn the Ancient Tomb would have met Wasteland. Geting you 3 mana behind from casting the Sphinx.
About 1/3 to half of the encounters i come across run some combination of FoW and/or Wasteland. Opening Game 1 like this will be a gamble of your on the play. I feel more comfortable setting up some kind of softlock with Chalice or Trinisphere and/or protection from Greaves or Cavern of Souls first before going 'nuts'. Protecting your manabase in the first few turns is key. If your not being careful with this it could be game..

[Hanni]

I think the mana cost is a major issue; you really need to cast it with 2-3 mana open otherwise you defeat the purpose of playing it. I liked Grim Poppet so much because it allows you to have a major impact on the board as soon as it resolves; removal is a big issue for this deck.

If you need it to be removal right away, I suppose. Otherwise, you can just keep it a 4/4 flier for the turn it comes into play.

Usually though, when you cheat it off of a Transmuter for U, you have extra mana sources open to sink into it. Even off of a Metalworker, there is a good chance that the deck still has a few more mana floating that it can't do anything with.

The reason why I like it better in the maindeck is Grim Poppet is a 1/1 for 7 mana if you're opponent doesn't have any targetable creatures for it, where Triskelavus is a 4/4 flying for 7 mana. I guess that shouldn't matter since most decks run creatures, though.

In the event that it can be turned into a removal engine with Transmuter, Poppet will end up being a 4/4 once the board is clear, while Triskelavus can turn into a token engine by spamming three 1/1 flying tokens onto the board every turn with Transmuter for 3U. I may be looking at this from a danger of cool things perspective, though. I'd like to test a few games with both of them in that spot first, before coming to any conclusive decisions.


If this would have been Game 2/3, then it was just pity that the Sphinx wasn't a Greaves equipping the Colussus Turn 2 FTW.

Next to the FoW the Transmuter would have caught, it is not unthinkable that in the following turn the Ancient Tomb would have met Wasteland. Geting you 3 mana behind from casting the Sphinx.
About 1/3 to half of the encounters i come across run some combination of FoW and/or Wasteland. Opening Game 1 like this will be a gamble of your on the play. I feel more comfortable setting up some kind of softlock with Chalice or Trinisphere and/or protection from Greaves or Cavern of Souls first before going 'nuts'. Protecting your manabase in the first few turns is key. If your not being careful with this it could be game..

Sure, sometimes the opponent has all the answers. Force for your turn 1 bomb, Wasteland on a Sol land to set you back 2 mana. But sometimes they don't, and you end up with a turn 2 Blightsteel like he did. I agree that against an unknown opponent, he was going all in. That's really a risk vs reward decision you have to make, though. Getting a Chalice/Trini/Cavern is a nice start, but it doesn't always happen like that.

The hand he drew was too strong to mulligan against an unknown opponent, he went for broke, and it worked for him. I think that in the same situation, I would have done the same thing. 4 mana on turn 1 for Transmuter, if it goes unanswered, is good game... he doesn't know at that point that Blighsteel is on top, but he does have a Sphinx in hand, which is almost as good. Even if Transmuter gets countered or killed at that point, he still has a chance to topdeck a land for 5 mana on turn 2 for the Sphinx. He ended up topdecking a Blightsteel instead, and if the opponent would have had a turn 2 Wasteland, he would be down to 3 mana... but even then, he still has a ton of other topdecks that can pull him out of it.

If the opponent is casting Force on turn 1 and Wasteland on turn 2, that usually means that this deck has the time to draw more bombs. The only deck in the format that can put up a fast enough clock to be able to do that, is RUG Delver. And my experiences against RUG Delver have indicated that it is a good matchup. Not great by any means, but they have been slightly in my favor.

[Bobmans]

I want to start a discussion on Lodestone Golem.

Lately i have been thinking to replace 4x Lodestone Golem from the Forgemaster/welder list. It has won me some games when they hit the board in multples or when enforced with some other threat/lock. And they provided a clock. But they very easily get removed/destroyed or whatever. They seem to be one of the weakest plays in the list. I do think missing his tax effect is an issue.What would be a good replacement?

I've been thinking about a combination of the following: Batterskull, Trinisphere (although i want a creature instead), Steel Hellkite (i currently run 0, cus i rarely get his ability to trigger when i want it), Spellskite, Scarecrone, Phyrexian Metamorph, Phyrexian Juggernaut, Tangle Wire, Blood Moon, Masticore. Just some stuff i come up with. But they all have pros and cons. My First thought would be to include 3 Batterskull and the fourth Metalworker.

Here is the current list:
Mainboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Goblin Welder
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
3 Voltaic Key
2 Mox Opal
2 Karn Liberated
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnace
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Karn Liberated
2 All is Dust
3 Defense Grid
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Trinisphere
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Emperion

[Hanni]

I'd run the 4th Metalworker regardless. Sure he has his limitations, but Metalworker to this deck is like Goblin Lackey to Goblins... and I've never seen a Goblins list with 3 Lackey's.

[Bobmans]

I'd run the 4th Metalworker regardless. Sure he has his limitations, but Metalworker to this deck is like Goblin Lackey to Goblins... and I've never seen a Goblins list with 3 Lackey's.

As 3 Metalworker feels as the wrong number i never missed the fourth and the mana base in this list feels very comfotable. As this might be an odd choice, the Stompy list mostly runs 3.

Regardless of the number of Metalworkers, is Lodestone Golem still valid?

[Hanni]

Regardless of the number of Metalworkers, is Lodestone Golem still valid?

Depends on what you are going for. If you're trying to play a tempo aggro/control role, the tax can be fantastic.

In lists with no removal, a 5/3 body won't be pushing through the red zone very often.

I think the problem right now is that people just toss him into every list as a 4-of because he's an iconic creature (his ability is great), but don't really evaluate why they are doing it. There are plenty of ways to build around him, or in other words, make the most out of him. On the other hand, some lists really don't need him.

I have to go to work now, but I will add more of my opinions on this topic later.

[Bobmans]

Depends on what you are going for. If you're trying to play a tempo aggro/control role, the tax can be fantastic.
In lists with no removal, a 5/3 body won't be pushing through the red zone very often.



What i like about the list is that it can swift roles. It can perfectly change from going control to aggro to combo. I believe this flexibility makes this a very strong deck. That being said, Lodestone Golem fits both roles of control and aggro, but is rather 'light' in either. The 5/3 body is indeed not that spectecular and it ends up sitting on your board because it will catch removal when you attack with it and loose the tax effect.. On the other hand is the tax effect for 4 mana kinda expensive and more easily removed then for instance a Thorn of Amethyst.
Speaking of which, the amethyst, chalice and defense grid can be dropped turn one or even two of them in turn two while the weaker one is cast first to lure out a counter. Making those so much stronger then a Golem solely for its tax effect for 4 mana.
Of course a turn one Chalice @ 1, followed by turn 2 Golem is incredibly powerfull.

[Alex Holland]

As 3 Metalworker feels as the wrong number i never missed the fourth and the mana base in this list feels very comfotable. As this might be an odd choice, the Stompy list mostly runs 3.

Regardless of the number of Metalworkers, is Lodestone Golem still valid?

3 workers is sufficient. It works for me. I even tought about dropping him all together in one of my mud versions. Often a thran dynamo t2 or 3 is all u need for the rest of the game. Unless you really want to play staff combo of course. I say 3 is the magic number for him.

I always play lodestone. He kills decks. What so great about him is his flexibility, hes cheap gor us and is a obstacle for many combo. Plus he can hit if needed. U can always equip him with batterskull for robot style points!

[Bobmans]

equip him with batterskull for robot style points!

:cool:

Thinking of this. I might just leave the Golems in and swap 4x Wurmcoil Engine for 4x Batterskull. This is harder to get rid of, although everyone has some plan against Stoneblade nowadays. Next to this the mana cost of 5 is slightly better.

Anyway, anybody else has some thoughts on the Lodestone Golem?

[Ttvetjanu]

:cool:

Thinking of this. I might just leave the Golems in and swap 4x Wurmcoil Engine for 4x Batterskull. This is harder to get rid of, although everyone has some plan against Stoneblade nowadays. Next to this the mana cost of 5 is slightly better.

Anyway, anybody else has some thoughts on the Lodestone Golem?

Lodestones are awesome. I play 2 metamorphs also maindeck and there's no better feeling locking a player out with two lodestones and a well placed wasteland. I would not play the deck without 4 lodestone golems. We're too weak to storm without them as they act as a clock and lock. (yes, trinispheres and chalices are also good but no way unbeatable)

[Blommis]

I personally meant on running the poppet in the stompy build. Also, it's a 4/4 for 7 that turns into a 7/7.

Seems more like 1/1 for 7 that turns in to 4/4. Could be good against some decks, but seems a bit lackluster..

[Ttvetjanu]

Seems more like 1/1 for 7 that turns in to 4/4. Could be good against some decks, but seems a bit lackluster..

You are correct. I misread the card. Makes it much worse.

[aluisiocsantos]

Metalworker is a great pitch for FOW. It's funny because most of the time Metalworkers never show up and you win the games anyway, but he's like a great "fear of" element, I've seen people hold out counters for him and let ingame other threats, jsut in anticipation of the damage Metalworker can do, so I think that's a great asset. If he's online - It's generally a won game!

There's no reason to play less than 4 Lodestone Golems too! You can cast him turn one, then turn two, and if it gets removed, it costs just another 2 sol lands to play again! Also great pitches for FOW just so yo ucan drop that Metalworker right after.

[fogxanic]

I think lodestone golem is one of the best creature against sneak & show. If you drop early it on table and opponent doesn't have fow or his combo parts you get good advantage. Also sometimes I put it on table from show and tell and opponent puts omniscience but his manas are out so he can't cast emrakul same turn.

[Hanni]

3 workers is sufficient. It works for me. I even tought about dropping him all together in one of my mud versions. Often a thran dynamo t2 or 3 is all u need for the rest of the game. Unless you really want to play staff combo of course. I say 3 is the magic number for him.

Sufficient doesn't mean it's the best idea. Even in a stompy versions that function off of a lower curve, Metalworker still says "Tap: Drop your entire hand on the board." For an artifact deck, he is fundamentally similar to Goblin Lackey in that he does unfair things by cheating things into play faster than they would normally be able to. I'd never run less than 4 Metalworker in MUD.

Regarding Thran Dynamo... despite costing 1 more mana than Metalworker, there is also a big difference between tapping for 3 mana, and tapping for double or even triple that. Thran Dynamo is a good mana source, but it doesn't do broken things like Metalworker.


Lodestone Golem discussion

Lodestone is a great creature. His effect is mostly asymmetrical, and a 5/3 for 4 mana is cost efficient. My only concern is that people blindly toss him into every list without considering whether he's necessary, or without supporting him properly.


Grim Poppet discussion

I've actually decided that Triskelion is what I'd prefer to run. This puts both of my removal spells at the 6cc spot, which makes them easier to hardcast in the midgame, and it's a Construct for Cavern. I also like the fact that the damage can be done to players as well... which makes him a 3 turn clock with Transmuter, once the board is clear.

[kingtk3]

Regarding the discussion about Lodestone Golem: I agree with Bobmans that it may be luckster in a Forgemaster or any other combo-ish build. Let me repeat it: only in combo builds.
I want to point this out because in a stompy version Lodestone golem is the backbone of the deck: if anyone wants to delve into this I'll be happy to elaborate, otherwise I'll stick with the analisys reguarding the combo builds.

This deck wants to win fast by landing a big robot early into play and kill the opponent in one or two attacks. In order to obtain so you need a hand consisting of
- a Beef and a mean to cheat it into play
- or a Forgemaster and at least 2 other artifacts to sacrifice (thus cheap artifacts)

But you cannot play too many Beefs because otherwise they'll clog your hands, so what you realistically need is a mix of acceleration, enablers, Beefs, tutor/card selection and protection.

In this deck Lodestone golem covers the role of protection since you are not aiming to win with a 5/3 but with a Beef so big that can ignore opposing creatures: the problem is that the taxing effect alone is not enough for 4 mana. I think it would be better to play a mix of tutor/card selection and protection in order to go off more consistently.

Of course you loose the god hands of turn 1 golem or double golem on turn 2 and 3 which are almost ever a win, but you have to consider how many times you wished the golem was something to help you advancing your plan A, not a shacky plan B.

In conclusion I think that Lodestone Golem can be played in comboish builds, but it's not optimal because it doesn't advance your plan and it's not efficient as protection.
Lodestone golem shines in decks that can fully support him with cards like wasteland, rishadan ports, phyrexian metamorph, tangle wire and the likes.

[Hanni]

In conclusion I think that Lodestone Golem can be played in comboish builds, but it's not optimal because it doesn't advance your plan and it's not efficient as protection.
Lodestone golem shines in decks that can fully support him with cards like wasteland, rishadan ports, phyrexian metamorph, tangle wire and the likes.

Exactly how I feel regarding Lodestone.


I've actually decided that Triskelion is what I'd prefer to run.

Just quoting myself here.

Triskelion has been superb in testing. He's a card advantage machine against most of the format just by himself, and he's rather absurd with Transmuter. I'm loving the 1/1 split with Duplicant. I'm fairly certain that this is the maindeck removal package that I am going to stick with. In comparison to Grim Poppet, I like the cost difference of 6 vs 7, the fact that it's a Construct, and the fact that the targeted damage can go to the dome.

I'm left with 1 flex spot, which could either be Sphinx Summoner #3, singleton Staff of Domination, Myr Battlesphere #2, or whatever else. I'll toy around with some different things here.

Again, I'm still considering fitting in some Wastelands. I am also considering swapping some (or all) of the Cities for Crystal Veins.

I've also started working on an actual 15 card sideboard, which is still in development.

Once I fine-tune these last few issues some more, I'll post an updated list for my U/b Masterworker deck.

Before I go, I also wanted to mention that I've logged a ton more games in with the deck. It could just be the player quality on MWS, but I've been winning lots of games against Tier 1 and Tier 2 strategies, with very few losses. G/B/whatever decks continue to be the bane of my existence though... I've yet to win a match against a B/G/x deck. The resource denial plan slaughters me everytime. I've also run into multiple different players running both Hymn and Sinkhole now too, which is a bit unusual in regards to the current general metagame, but is seemingly popular on MWS. Meh. For right now, I'm brining in Crucibles postboard, but I'm going to try out a few other options in addition to them and see if it helps improve the matchup any. If anyone has any info to share in regards to this matchup, please do.

[noobslayer]

Staff of Nin keeps looking better and better.

[bruizar]

hanni: a Bg list would be nice too, so we can think about how to tackle that matchup.

[Hanni]

hanni: a Bg list would be nice too, so we can think about how to tackle that matchup.

I cannot give a specific list, because the lists differ so much. The only fundamental similarity between all of them is resource denial. By resource denial, I mean some amount of discard, land destruction, creature removal, and usually some amount of permanent removal (typically Abrupt Decay). I've yet to have a Deed blown up on me, but I can only imagine how brutal that would be against my 8 artifact lands and 6 Moxes.

Note: I realize the vulnerabilities I open myself up to by running 14 artifact mana sources, but it's a risk vs reward... in most matchups, the increased power and consistency is worth it.

Anyway, I basically can never get going against a G/B deck, regardless of the specific card choices. They take a key card or two I need out of my hand, Wasteland (or sometimes Sinkhole) my Sol land (with multiple LD effects being even worse), destroy my Workers/Transmuters/whatever, and then drop a Goyf, Confidant, Liliana, Tombstalker, Knight of the Reliquary, Terravore, or whatever scary threat they have (each list has been slightly different). While I'm scrambling to get the mana I need to drop stuff, they are either smacking me in the face or gaining board advantage. It doesn't help when they cast an early Hymn and run me out of gas. By the time I finally develop the mana I need and have some relevant stuff to play, it's usually too late.

I've considered several ways to try and counteract this, but the problem is that their resource denial plan comes from multiple angles. Crucible seems like the best bet for making land drops, so long as I can get to 3 mana. Spellskite is probably the best option against their removal. Witchbane Orb is too slow against discard (and I don't think Leyline of Sanctity is worth it)... but I'm thinking something like Scarecrone would be a strong card overall to bring in. There's also some artifacts that come into play with bonuses if they are discarded by the opponent (I don't have the time to list them right now, but I will later tonight or tomorrow), but that might be too narrow.

[kingofethanol]

Staff of Nin keeps looking better and better.

I've been thinking about this card. The card seems solid, but you need the deck to be as explosive as possible and make every play count. Paying :6: would mean mid to late game, and I would imagine the deck needing a much more substantial board impact than a card like this. Tapping for one damage almost does nothing (maybe kills Lingering Souls tokens and Thalia?) and is not the kind of impact you want at this point. If you want card draw and have access to blue try Thoughtcast. It acts as a Dark Ritual with Metalworker out, digs pretty well, and has instant value (as opposed to having untap two more times).

Regarding Lodestone Golem I think it's a fantastic card. It's removed quickly because it almost always needs to be answered. It annoys the crap out of blue players. It delays Jace a turn, which is a huge deal for this deck; makes in-response-Brainstorming much weaker; makes Snapcaster incredibly hard to work with; and Force of Will is no longer free, which they will play around and give you time. The 4-turn clock it provides can steal you games. Worst case scenario, they tapped out to Bolt him? Resolve a Wurmcoil next turn and win the game. Great against Show and Tell - it dampers the 12 or so cantrips and makes it so that they can't greedily tap out while casting them (they'll want Force up against you). Show and Tell is also delayed a turn, and the turn they tap out you can safely respond with Metamorph, Karn, Spine, or just lethal.

My two cents, Batterskull is insane in this deck. It's anti-removal, Terminus, Humility, and blocks Mongoose all day. Makes a late game Metalworker worth something for those debating between running three or four. Wonder if I have room for a full set...

Edit: Has anyone tried Heartless Summoning? Just a random idea. :6: to cast Sundering Titan seems hot. If you're luck enough you can totally be casting that turn 3.

[bruizar]

I've been contemplating Urza's Incubator as a mana accelerant. It doesn't have the card disadvantage of Semblance Anvil, but it limits the creature setup. Urza's Incubator goes well with Cavern of Souls. I'm still going back and forth choosing which creature types would work best, but some of the options are Myr, Artificer, Construct or Golem.

I don't really like Heartless Summoning for the fact that it requires a color and that it makes your dudes smaller.

[Hanni]

Aside from not having the vulnerability to creature removal, I'm not sure why you'd limit yourself to one creature type just for mana acceleration. Of course, I'm sure there's ways to build some strong tribal decks, so in that case it Urza's Incubator does look awesome. I started a Myr deck already several pages back... might not be the direction you want to go in, but it might help give you some sort of starting point.

Unless your building around tribal synergies, Metalworker/Master Transmuter/Goblin Welder/Kuldotha Forgemaster are straight up more powerful than reducing the cc costs by 2.

[bruizar]

Right now, the relevant constructs are:
Adaptive Automaton
Metalworker
Myr Battlesphere
Silent Arbiter
Steel Overseer
Su-Chi
Triskelion

Golems:
Solemn Simulacrum
Lodestone Golem
Precursor Golem
Arcbound Reclaimer
Bosh, Iron Golem
Karn, Silver Golem
Darksteel Sentinel
Platinum Emporium
Walking Archive
Golem Artisan


Artificers

All splicers
Arcum Dagsson
Faerie Mechanist
Riddlesmith
Stoneforge Mystic
Master Transmuter
Goblin Welder


The constructs have the best synergy at the moment.

Adaptive Automaton -> Pumps everything, or pumps Myrs
Metalworker -> Metalworker + Incubator is good ramp
Myr Battlesphere -> You only have to attack with Myr Battlesphere and leave the Myrs at home. Combos with Silent Arbiter.
Silent Arbiter -> Your Ensnaring Bridge that combos with Myr Battlesphere
Steel Overseer -> Pumps up everything, including Battlesphere Myrs and Trike counters
Su-Chi -> Doesn't really add much of anything, but its a construct nonetheless
Triskelion -> Shoots stuff, and gets new counters from Steel Overseer

+Phyrexian Metamorph / Sculpting Steel to copy stuff

[Hanni]

The constructs have the best synergy at the moment.

I think the Myr's have the best synergy (with the current card pool), but that's my opinion I suppose.

I hadn't considered Urza's Incubator though, which might prove to be a crazy awesome addition. My biggest beef is that it doesn't cast Myr Turbine, which is the best "Myr" that my Myr deck has access to (with the proper Myrs to support it, like Myr Battlesphere, of course). But reducing the manacost of all the actual Myr creatures by 2 is pretty insane... the 2cc mana dorks become friggin free for fucks sake lol. I suppose that in turn would make Myr Turbine easier to cast, so I'm definitely going to try it out when I get a chance.

[bruizar]

I think the Myr's have the best synergy (with the current card pool), but that's my opinion I suppose.

I hadn't considered Urza's Incubator though, which might prove to be a crazy awesome addition. My biggest beef is that it doesn't cast Myr Turbine, which is the best "Myr" that my Myr deck has access to (with the proper Myrs to support it, like Myr Battlesphere, of course). But reducing the manacost of all the actual Myr creatures by 2 is pretty insane... the 2cc mana dorks become friggin free for fucks sake lol. I suppose that in turn would make Myr Turbine easier to cast, so I'm definitely going to try it out when I get a chance.


I didn't bother writing out the Myrs because that would make it a really long post. For a myr deck, incubator should be great. For reference, I made a myr deck myself a long time ago ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-18783.html ) List is pretty crappy but there are some nice infinite mana combos in it.

[bruizar]

Is there a control version of the deck that runs trading post by chance? I really want to see if I can play a deck with trading post in it again D:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBSY0f7Yuj0

[noobslayer]

A lot of the builds Hanni has been posting have had me brainstorming stuff pretty hard. I'm going to try to grind out a blue stompy build that takes the utility and card draw to make it consistent, but stay true to the beat down plan. It loses out on Godo and Bonfire, but I think adding strong blue elements could help smooth the decks plays out a fair bit. Stay tuned.

[Hanni]

A lot of the builds Hanni has been posting have had me brainstorming stuff pretty hard. I'm going to try to grind out a blue stompy build that takes the utility and card draw to make it consistent, but stay true to the beat down plan. It loses out on Godo and Bonfire, but I think adding strong blue elements could help smooth the decks plays out a fair bit. Stay tuned.

Good, I'm glad I could help. Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.

I have a 5/3 Blue Artifact Stompy thread that I started way before the SOM block, but from what I can remember from that thread, it ran both Master of Etherium and Umezawa's Jitte.

[Alex Holland]

Right now, the relevant constructs are:
Adaptive Automaton
Metalworker
Myr Battlesphere
Silent Arbiter
Steel Overseer
Su-Chi
Triskelion

Golems:
Solemn Simulacrum
Lodestone Golem
Precursor Golem
Arcbound Reclaimer
Bosh, Iron Golem
Karn, Silver Golem
Darksteel Sentinel
Platinum Emporium
Walking Archive
Golem Artisan


Artificers

All splicers
Arcum Dagsson
Faerie Mechanist
Riddlesmith
Stoneforge Mystic
Master Transmuter
Goblin Welder


The constructs have the best synergy at the moment.

Adaptive Automaton -> Pumps everything, or pumps Myrs
Metalworker -> Metalworker + Incubator is good ramp
Myr Battlesphere -> You only have to attack with Myr Battlesphere and leave the Myrs at home. Combos with Silent Arbiter.
Silent Arbiter -> Your Ensnaring Bridge that combos with Myr Battlesphere
Steel Overseer -> Pumps up everything, including Battlesphere Myrs and Trike counters
Su-Chi -> Doesn't really add much of anything, but its a construct nonetheless
Triskelion -> Shoots stuff, and gets new counters from Steel Overseer

+Phyrexian Metamorph / Sculpting Steel to copy stuff

i have been thinking about red/blue humans.. Gives some nice options. Hell; some of the best creatures in magic are human.

Add 4 cavern 4 city of brass.. And go rainbow. Lol.

[Ttvetjanu]

I've been thinking about this card. The card seems solid, but you need the deck to be as explosive as possible and make every play count. Paying :6: would mean mid to late game, and I would imagine the deck needing a much more substantial board impact than a card like this. Tapping for one damage almost does nothing (maybe kills Lingering Souls tokens and Thalia?) and is not the kind of impact you want at this point. If you want card draw and have access to blue try Thoughtcast. It acts as a Dark Ritual with Metalworker out, digs pretty well, and has instant value (as opposed to having untap two more times).

Regarding Lodestone Golem I think it's a fantastic card. It's removed quickly because it almost always needs to be answered. It annoys the crap out of blue players. It delays Jace a turn, which is a huge deal for this deck; makes in-response-Brainstorming much weaker; makes Snapcaster incredibly hard to work with; and Force of Will is no longer free, which they will play around and give you time. The 4-turn clock it provides can steal you games. Worst case scenario, they tapped out to Bolt him? Resolve a Wurmcoil next turn and win the game. Great against Show and Tell - it dampers the 12 or so cantrips and makes it so that they can't greedily tap out while casting them (they'll want Force up against you). Show and Tell is also delayed a turn, and the turn they tap out you can safely respond with Metamorph, Karn, Spine, or just lethal.

My two cents, Batterskull is insane in this deck. It's anti-removal, Terminus, Humility, and blocks Mongoose all day. Makes a late game Metalworker worth something for those debating between running three or four. Wonder if I have room for a full set...

Edit: Has anyone tried Heartless Summoning? Just a random idea. :6: to cast Sundering Titan seems hot. If you're luck enough you can totally be casting that turn 3.

This.

I'm going to shift my threat focus into 3 staff of nin, 4 wurmcoil, 2 batterskull, 2 karn, 2 hellkite and 2 metamorphs. (In addition to the usual 4 lodestones). I'm noticing that most decks have a very hard time to win against a resolved staff of nin. I would like fitting one more batterskull but it would have to take a wurmcoils place.

[SirTylerGalt]

This.

I'm going to shift my threat focus into 3 staff of nin, 4 wurmcoil, 2 batterskull, 2 karn, 2 hellkite and 2 metamorphs. (In addition to the usual 4 lodestones). I'm noticing that most decks have a very hard time to win against a resolved staff of nin. I would like fitting one more batterskull but it would have to take a wurmcoils place.

I built a MUD Stompy version a while ago, using Staff of Nin. L10 inspired me to try it with this post: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=667417&viewfull=1#post667417

Here is what I had:


4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
3 Voltaic Key

3 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Steel Hellkite
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Batterskull

2 Staff of Nin
1 Karn Liberated

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Buried Ruin
3 Mishra's Factory

SB: 3 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Cursed Totem
SB: 2 All Is Dust
SB: 1 Karn Liberated
SB: 2 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker


While I love playing with other MUD variations (Kuldotha combo, Godo aggro...), I always found MUD Stompy to be the most consistent. Since we don't need colored mana source, we can use tons of awesome utility lands. Mishra's Factory is a land that also helps apply pressure (and which can become a 3/3 on offense or a 4/4 on defense thanks to Voltaic Key, which is great for combat tricks). Buried Ruin is a land that can recur a threat if our other threats are answered. Crucible Of Worlds is nice against U/W Miracles and other control archetypes, since it lets us recur Mishra's Factory / Buried Ruin / Wasteland :)

Staff Of Nin is great against Miracles, since they can't answer it once it hits the battlefield. And you can recur it with Buried Ruin if they counter it :)

[Ttvetjanu]

I built a MUD Stompy version a while ago, using Staff of Nin. L10 inspired me to try it with this post: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=667417&viewfull=1#post667417

Here is what I had:


4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
3 Voltaic Key

3 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Steel Hellkite
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Batterskull

2 Staff of Nin
1 Karn Liberated

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Buried Ruin
3 Mishra's Factory

SB: 3 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Cursed Totem
SB: 2 All Is Dust
SB: 1 Karn Liberated
SB: 2 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker


While I love playing with other MUD variations (Kuldotha combo, Godo aggro...), I always found MUD Stompy to be the most consistent. Since we don't need colored mana source, we can use tons of awesome utility lands. Mishra's Factory is a land that also helps apply pressure (and which can become a 3/3 on offense or a 4/4 on defense thanks to Voltaic Key, which is great for combat tricks). Buried Ruin is a land that can recur a threat if our other threats are answered. Crucible Of Worlds is nice against U/W Miracles and other control archetypes, since it lets us recur Mishra's Factory / Buried Ruin / Wasteland :)

Staff Of Nin is great against Miracles, since they can't answer it once it hits the battlefield. And you can recur it with Buried Ruin if they counter it :)

I personally run 4 cavern of souls as it is the nuts against most decks. I also run 2 ports, 4 wastelands, 3 buried ruins and the usual sol lands. I've also decided on not running revokers, not sure about it though. I think I would mostly name wasteland at top with it. Otherwise your list is very similar (I play a total of 4 karns with 2 on sideboard).

[manugl84]

I've also decided on not running revokers, not sure about it though. I think I would mostly name wasteland at top with it.

You can´t name wasteland with revoker. I wish I could:cry:

[Koby]

Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.


Oh gosh, there's tons of threads that have tried Artifact + Blue.

Off the top of my head: Deep Blue, 5/3, AfFOWnity, etc

If I remember correctly, the primary lacking from those shells have been: "what do I do when I don't have turn 1 Chalice @ 1?" and "How do I deal with permanents?"
Answer those two questions and the deck might be viable. I've had the best success with the :w: flavored version that ran SFM with Batterskull and Cranial. It might have been to do with the lifegain to offset the life-loss from Ancient Tomb and Phyrexian Metamorph.

[aluisiocsantos]

I built a MUD Stompy version a while ago, using Staff of Nin. L10 inspired me to try it with this post: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=667417&viewfull=1#post667417

Here is what I had:


4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
3 Voltaic Key

3 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Steel Hellkite
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Batterskull

2 Staff of Nin
1 Karn Liberated

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Buried Ruin
3 Mishra's Factory

SB: 3 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Cursed Totem
SB: 2 All Is Dust
SB: 1 Karn Liberated
SB: 2 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker



Is the reason of you preferring Dynamo Thran over Grim Monolith because you proabbly plan on eventually playing a X=2 Chalice of Void?

[Koby]

Is the reason of you preferring Dynamo Thran over Grim Monolith because you proabbly plan on eventually playing a X=2 Chalice of Void?

He is playing 4 of each Grim Monolith and Thran Dynamo.

[aluisiocsantos]

OH dumb me lol :P Sorry about that, I didn't see it.

[dillonkbase]

anyone ever mess around with Conch Horn in list that use bonfire?

[Alex Holland]

anyone ever mess around with Conch Horn in list that use bonfire?


I had to look it up since i didnt knew that card, but it seems ok. Especially the draw two part. I play 3 bonfire in my godo version- i also considered playing rolling earthquake but thats expensive as hell. This tech helps bonfire a lot while adding a extra deaw for cheap.
i like it. But for now i stick with my 60, unless u tested it with good results.

[Hanni]

This.

I'm going to shift my threat focus into 3 staff of nin, 4 wurmcoil, 2 batterskull, 2 karn, 2 hellkite and 2 metamorphs. (In addition to the usual 4 lodestones). I'm noticing that most decks have a very hard time to win against a resolved staff of nin. I would like fitting one more batterskull but it would have to take a wurmcoils place.

I think he was actually trying to say that Staff of Nin doesn't do enough for the cost.


While I love playing with other MUD variations (Kuldotha combo, Godo aggro...), I always found MUD Stompy to be the most consistent. Since we don't need colored mana source, we can use tons of awesome utility lands. Mishra's Factory is a land that also helps apply pressure (and which can become a 3/3 on offense or a 4/4 on defense thanks to Voltaic Key, which is great for combat tricks). Buried Ruin is a land that can recur a threat if our other threats are answered. Crucible Of Worlds is nice against U/W Miracles and other control archetypes, since it lets us recur Mishra's Factory / Buried Ruin / Wasteland :)

Staff Of Nin is great against Miracles, since they can't answer it once it hits the battlefield. And you can recur it with Buried Ruin if they counter it :)

You mentioned U/W Miracles twice. Is that normally a bad matchup for you? I'm only curious because I haven't tested with your list.


I personally run 4 cavern of souls as it is the nuts against most decks. I also run 2 ports, 4 wastelands, 3 buried ruins and the usual sol lands. I've also decided on not running revokers, not sure about it though. I think I would mostly name wasteland at top with it. Otherwise your list is very similar (I play a total of 4 karns with 2 on sideboard).

Cavern of Souls is nuts, and any MUD list that runs enough of one or two specific creature types should definitely be running a playset. In my list, for example, I run 8 Artificers and 9 Constructs.


Oh gosh, there's tons of threads that have tried Artifact + Blue.

Off the top of my head: Deep Blue, 5/3, AfFOWnity, etc

If I remember correctly, the primary lacking from those shells have been: "what do I do when I don't have turn 1 Chalice @ 1?" and "How do I deal with permanents?"
Answer those two questions and the deck might be viable.

Cool story. What's your point though? If memory serves me correctly, Deep Blue and AfFOWnity are rediculously old and outdated, and what may or may not have worked back then is likely irrelevant now.

The deck might be viable? You speak as though the deck isn't... but why? I'm all for constructive criticism, but have you even tried playing with my list before assuming it's not viable? Or how about a more productive question: what matchups do you think renders it nonviable?

Regardless, what does that have anything to do with what you quoted? So because someone tried blue + artifact before means that trying it now with completely different cards isn't innovation? I have no idea why you decided to quote that for your response, but mmkay. I think you also completely missed the context of why I said that, but if for whatever reason you did, you should check out what Noobslayer said in the post above the one (of mine) that you quoted.

But I'll play along and answer your questions. The deck never needs a turn 1 Chalice@1. It's obviously a very nice start, but the deck doesn't just suddenly fall apart without it. Losing a Metalworker to Swords to Plowshares sucks, but this deck doesn't fold to it by any means. It's possible that you didn't notice, but my list runs a large density of enablers, creatures with built in draw and tutors, and every creature besides the enablers and Blightsteel have powerful ETB effects. The deck is chock full of redundancy and card advantage, and I get tons of value out of my ETB creatures even if the opponent has removal for them. I have a pretty hefty creature density, Greaves gives Shroud if the opponent is tapped out or doesn't have an immediate answer, and although Trinisphere doesn't actually prevent removal, it slows most of it down alot. You can even run Spellkite in the sideboard to bring in against spot removal heavy decks, if necessary.

How do I deal with permanents? Depends on what permanents you're talking about, I guess. The only permanent that I've had dropped against me that I've actually cared about so far has been Null Rod, which admittedly is a problem, but it's not very popular right now. Deed and Liliana are problems, but that matchup is bad for other reasons, and I'd rather work on addressing those issues first. Revoker out of the sideboard does deal with those, although its vulnerability to spot removal means its only a temporary solution. Humility is a problem too, but it is still possible to win out with 1/1's, I don't think many lists are running more than 2, and I cannot think of any commonly played deck that runs them in the main right now. I can play through Ensnaring Bridge/Propaganda/etc, so I don't really need maindeck permanent removal for those. Duplicant and Triskelion have been fantastic at dealing with creature permanents, Chalice stops 1cc and/or 2cc permanents from coming into play, Titan deals with basic land permanents, and Spine of Ish Sah can destroy whatever in postboard games.

...but dropping broken shits that are more powerful than the permanents my opponents are dropping has been better than dealing with their permanents, most of the time.

But let's get back to what I asked earlier. Why do you think this deck is not viable? What matchups do you think renders it so? I've been tuning the deck off and on for over a month now and the only matchup that I've found to be significantly unfavorable is B/G/x decks, and I've won far more games than I've lost against everything else, which has been primarily made up of Tier 1 and Tier 2 decks.

tl;dr - Please explain.


I've had the best success with the flavored version that ran SFM with Batterskull and Cranial. It might have been to do with the lifegain to offset the life-loss from Ancient Tomb and Phyrexian Metamorph.

And I've had the best success with my U/b version. Not really sure what you were trying to get at there, since it didn't really do much to reinforce why you think blue + artifact isn't viable.

[dillonkbase]

i have been thinking about red/blue humans.. Gives some nice options. Hell; some of the best creatures in magic are human.

Add 4 cavern 4 city of brass.. And go rainbow. Lol.

I don't get the city of brass, 4 caverns+a few mox diamonds can probably get you there with a few basics thrown in.

I went 3-1 tonight at my LGS

Goblins, Storm, Bant(loss), Bant.

I ran
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Mishra's Factory
6 Mountain

4 Mox diamond
4 Grim monolith

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Tangle Wire
4 Magus of the moon
1 Goblin Welder
2 Godo Bandit Warlord

2 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Karn Liberated
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Phrexian Metamorph

SB
2 Spine of Ish Sah (Sneak show) uw control?
3 Phyrexian Revoker (Storm, Bant, Mavrick, more if I think about it)
2 Cursed Totem (Mavrick, Bant)
2 Relic of Progenitus (dredge, gy based stuff)
1 Tormod's Crypt (storm,gy based stuff)
3 Silent Arbiter (tribes, Ichorid)
2 Impending Disaster (UW control, turbo eldrazi, lands)

Props-Jitte was good of the top twice, Ratchet bomb--killed many noble hierarchs (this tech from Caleb Durwards build is sweet, it really shores up alot of okay matchups and gives you something to do turn one.), mana-base (always had something good turn one, only one mulligan), Magus of the moon lets you get all the benefit of a turn one ancient tomb or city of traitors, without the downside later of losing a bunch of life. Magus is nearly as good as turn one chalice and makes abrupt decay much harder to cast, a huge bonus.



I continue to believe that MUD is at its best when it lowers its curve. The sooner you are putting control elements on the table the better off you are. Metalworker is just too slow and wurmcoil is to bad vs swords.


I think the 3 Tangle Wire and 1 welder are the flex slots right now, but I'm not sure what I would really want instead.....

[Koby]

tl;dr - Please explain.


I wasn't contradicting anything you were saying for once! I was just building on top of the ideas, and pointing out that there is a lot of room to innovate in this archetype, and pointing towards other attempts to avoid those shortcomings and find "new" old tech to tinker with.

I'm not criticizing all the time :)

[bruizar]

4 Magus of the moon
1 Jitte
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 * * *Silent Arbiter (tribes, Ichorid)
2 Impending Disaster (UW control, turbo eldrazi, lands)

@Magus of the Moon: I really like Magus of the Moon at the moment. You should be impacting the board as soon as possible. Magus of the Moon is a high-impact card for exactly the reasons you mentioned (fixing sol lands/colorscrewing). He also helps the firebreathing of Moltensteel Dragon should you opt to run it..

@Jitte: I think Jitte is better than a sword at the moment. Once Jitte becomes active, who cares about the extra card draw from SoFI? Goblins can be a tough matchup but it seems like you didnt have a lot of troubles with access to ratchet bomb, chalice, SIlent Arbiter and jitte.

@Silent Arbiter: I've been trying to play with this card for a long time. How has it performed for you?

@Impending Disaster: Can you tell us a bit more about this card? I'm really interested to hear how well it does.




I continue to believe that MUD is at its best when it lowers its curve. The sooner you are putting control elements on the table the better off you are. Metalworker is just too slow and wurmcoil is to bad vs swords.

That's exactly what I've been propagating for a long time. Just because you're running sol-lands, doesn't mean you should get greedy with the cards you can run

[dillonkbase]

Didn't see the arbiter vs goblin's but an arena that can block for 5 toughness (or more if you equip with batterskull) seems pretty good vs goblins, merfolk, and zombies.

As for impending disaster, it hasn't been boarded in yet, however the basic goal is that you have24 lands and 32 mana sources+crucible and if they are playing around wasteland or have a lot of basics, like UW RIP Combo or UW Miracles, this is punishment for taking the game too long. It stops them from waiting out the game looking for their one copy of whatever. Bottom line is its another card that gobbles up land, this time after they have found their basics to avoid Magus and Wasteland. I just happened upon it googling the best LD spell or something like that and thought I would give it a try.

[SirTylerGalt]

You mentioned U/W Miracles twice. Is that normally a bad matchup for you? I'm only curious because I haven't tested with your list.


I don't have the real cards, so I mainly play MUD on Cockatrice against random decks, and the skill level of opponents is random... But UW Miracles used to be annoying when I encountered it with my previous versions of MUD. Since I hate losing to it, I try to take it into account when building MUD.

Problem is, MUD needs to dedicate a lot of cards to acceleration, and doesn't have that many threats. Since we don't have library manipulation, we often lose if UW Miracles can counter our Chalice and resolve a Terminus against our early threats... It's annoying to invest a lot of resources to see your bit threat get countered / stped. Also, Terminus / StP are very good against our Wurmcoil Engine :)

In the past, I used to bring in Trinisphere in G2/G3, to slow them down. But I don't think it's that great anymore. Crucible gives us inevitability, combined with Mishra's Factory / Buried Ruin / Wasteland :) Other good cards are Staff of Nin, Phyrexian Revoker (naming Sensei's Divining Top), and Karn Liberated.

[dillonkbase]

Problem is, MUD needs to dedicate a lot of cards to acceleration, and doesn't have that many threats. Since we don't have library manipulation, we often lose if UW Miracles can counter our Chalice and resolve a Terminus against our early threats... It's annoying to invest a lot of resources to see your bit threat get countered / stped. Also, Terminus / StP are very good against our Wurmcoil Engine :)


For the casual reader...Just a reminder that terminus isn't countered by a chalice at one....


And just another reason wurmcoil is bad...thanks. I think this is the matchup batterskull and magus really shine although you might not expect them to, batterskull because its a recurable threat and magus because it stops them from being able to shuffle. Most only play 3 terminus so being able to shuffle is very important.


And can you imagine landing Impending disaster!!!!!! I just want to see the look on their face!!!!:cry:

[SirTylerGalt]

For the casual reader...Just a reminder that terminus isn't countered by a chalice at one....

Yeah. Chalice is good because it stops them from playing Sensei's Divining Top, Swords to Plowshare, and Brainstorm. If they already have a Sensei's Top in play, you can play Phyrexian Revoker on Sensei's Divining Top. Since they can't Sword it, their only answer is a lucky Terminus topdeck, an Engineered Explosives at 2, or a Jace (to bounce Revoker and/or put Terminus on top).

[dillonkbase]

what do you think about Koth.... specifically thinking about him as a two of in the welder and tangle wire slot.... could he replace karn? How much red do I need to support his casting cost....

[Hanni]

I continue to believe that MUD is at its best when it lowers its curve. The sooner you are putting control elements on the table the better off you are. Metalworker is just too slow and wurmcoil is to bad vs swords.

How is Metalworker too slow? It's a 3cc colorless creature, and all you need to do is untap with it once to poop your hand onto the table. It's high risk high reward, but it's most certainly not slow. Metalworker to MUD is relatively similar, fundamentally, to Goblin Lackey in Goblins.

I can understand the position of Wurmcoil being bad vs Swords, since it costs 6 mana and doesn't have any ETB (or LTB) effects... and you're only running 1 Goblin Welder in your list. Wurmcoil requires the proper shell to get maximum benefit from it, namely Goblin Welder.


I wasn't contradicting anything you were saying for once! I was just building on top of the ideas, and pointing out that there is a lot of room to innovate in this archetype, and pointing towards other attempts to avoid those shortcomings and find "new" old tech to tinker with.

I'm not criticizing all the time :)

I apologize for the confusion then.


That's exactly what I've been propagating for a long time. Just because you're running sol-lands, doesn't mean you should get greedy with the cards you can run

I believe you are referring to the Stompy versions, but if you are talking about MUD as a whole... it has nothing to do with being greedy because of Sol lands. You'll notice that every MUD list that runs stuff at the 7cc or larger range, runs some sort of additional acceleration or ways to cheat them in. Moxes, Key/Monolith, Dynamo, Welder, Metalworker, Transmuter, Forgemaster, Coretapper, Scarecrone, etc.

That's not to say that most builds aren't greedy with Sol lands, but it has nothing to do with bigger cc spells, it has to do with running few to no 1cc spells because of Chalice (and Trinisphere to a lesser extent), and a limited amount of 2cc spells, with a large amount of spells at the 3cc and/or 4cc range instead. Anything past 4cc is usually being cast off of more than just Sol lands, or is being cheated into play.


As for impending disaster, it hasn't been boarded in yet, however the basic goal is that you have24 lands and 32 mana sources+crucible and if they are playing around wasteland or have a lot of basics, like UW RIP Combo or UW Miracles, this is punishment for taking the game too long. It stops them from waiting out the game looking for their one copy of whatever. Bottom line is its another card that gobbles up land, this time after they have found their basics to avoid Magus and Wasteland. I just happened upon it googling the best LD spell or something like that and thought I would give it a try.

Impending Disaster is definitely a bomby spell for the red splash versions against control decks... nice find. It does require running enough nonland mana sources to properly support it (to break the symmetry); this isn't really an issue, but it is something to be conscious about.


I don't have the real cards, so I mainly play MUD on Cockatrice against random decks, and the skill level of opponents is random... But UW Miracles used to be annoying when I encountered it with my previous versions of MUD. Since I hate losing to it, I try to take it into account when building MUD.

Problem is, MUD needs to dedicate a lot of cards to acceleration, and doesn't have that many threats. Since we don't have library manipulation, we often lose if UW Miracles can counter our Chalice and resolve a Terminus against our early threats... It's annoying to invest a lot of resources to see your bit threat get countered / stped. Also, Terminus / StP are very good against our Wurmcoil Engine :)

In the past, I used to bring in Trinisphere in G2/G3, to slow them down. But I don't think it's that great anymore. Crucible gives us inevitability, combined with Mishra's Factory / Buried Ruin / Wasteland :) Other good cards are Staff of Nin, Phyrexian Revoker (naming Sensei's Divining Top), and Karn Liberated.

I think the U/W Miracles matchup really depends on the particular build of MUD you're running. I've found that matchup to be really good for my U/b Masterworker build, but builds that have few ways to gain card advantage have a tough time with it, and it's an even worse matchup when those builds run tons of card disadvantage instead (like Forgemaster).

[Hanni]

Sorry for the double post, but I just had an interesting idea for dealing with B/G decks. The discard problem is still an issue, but even against Wasteland/Sinkhole, my list can make 2U pretty consistently (and as early as turn one)... what do you guys think about Show and Tell as a sideboard plan vs B/G decks? It's likely horrible against discard heavy versions, but I'm thinking it still has some potential.

[dillonkbase]

Metalworker is slow and opens you up to lost momentum vs the format's best decks. Metal worker is slow, if you get it in an average hand, you can cast it turn 2, on turn 3 you can then use its ability to cast some big critter, which doesn't have haste and must be in your hand, and then on turn you can start beating down. If you can cast it turn one, you probably just put all your artifacts in play and now your worker is worse.


However, although metalworker is slow, that is not its largest fault. Metalworker skews every other card choice decision in deck building. In the manabase it suggests you run more artifact lands, lands that are more fragile to both destruction and invalidation (null rod). It tempts you to run high mana cost threats which are dependent on fragile engines to sneak into play (of which you must run in high enough numbers to find). And it presents the most tempting target to opponents, one that the current decks to beat all can respond to.

SIDEBAR: I was talking to some friends last night about give black its ability to tutor back, and what sort of card could be printable, and the conclusion was that the biggest value the black tutors have is that they hide information. Vamperic tutor is still bonkers even though it doesn't put the card in your hand because you opponent can only guess at what you found.

Metalworker is not a imperial seal, its a sorcery speed mystical, you write on the wall your strategy and give your opponent every opportunity to invalidate it. Did you lay it on turn one using a city into basalt and so just removing it is best, or can they discard the bomb you intend to play, or just counter the bomb, or set up a terminus........ I could go on. Like any tutor metalworker is just an enabler... it cannot win the game by itself.

I could go on... we could talk about how it tempts you to play lightning greaves to "fix" these problems, or how top-decking it almost always is bad... but I don't want to anymore.



However, I will say this, instead of running "some sort of additional acceleration or ways to cheat them in" and gobs of high cost threats, I think powering out bomby spells turn 1 and 2 is where this deck makes its money. Chalice on one, magus of the moon, impending disaster, lodestone golem, Crucible of worlds, revoker(on LED, TOP, Pridemage, Knight, Vial), cursed totem, tangle wire, or ratchet bomb; these all change the value of our opponents cards . The best deck in today's format are meant to use slight interactions to eek out little advantages, brainstorm/fetchland being the most popular. If we can attack that, if we can make their cards into impulses and teramorphic expanse, we will win.




As for show and tell, I think the fact that they are playing Liliana and can edict back makes this a bad line of play... Then again, I wouldn't have any battlespheres or colossi in my deck to really take advantage of it anyway...

[Hanni]

Metalworker is slow and opens you up to lost momentum vs the format's best decks. Metal worker is slow, if you get it in an average hand, you can cast it turn 2, on turn 3 you can then use its ability to cast some big critter, which doesn't have haste and must be in your hand, and then on turn you can start beating down. If you can cast it turn one, you probably just put all your artifacts in play and now your worker is worse.

And what else are you casting on turn 2, let alone one that is literally a must answer threat, unless the opponent wants to get buried in tempo advantage? You don't need big critters for Metalworker to be broken. In a lower curve Stompy shell, Metalworker will allow you to empty your hand and overrun the opponent instead. Turn 2 unanswered Metalworker to enable turn 3 Lodestone Golem x2 is pretty vicious if you ask me. Everything in this deck is slow and opens you up to lost momentum. Do you think that paying 5 for Batterskull, bouncing it for 3, and then paying another 5 to replay Batterskull is less momentum lost? I don't get what your point is, considering Metalworker is typically the cheapest creature (cost wise) that MUD decks run, with Welder and Revoker being the only two exceptions that I can think of right now.

And what does dropping a creature that doesn't have haste have anything to do with Metalworker? Do those creatures magically gain haste when you don't have Metalworker, and I just don't know about it? If you want haste, there's Greaves, which most lists that run Metalworker tend to run Greaves in some amount.

The only real argument that I see here, is that you think paying 3 mana for a 1/2 that has a bullseye for removal is going to cost you some tempo vs 1cc removal. Do you think that having Lodestone Golem eat the same removal but costing the opponent 2 mana instead is any better? There is a reason why Metalworker has a bullseye for removal... if the opponent doesn't kill him, they probably lose. The fact is, Metalworker is a massive momentum gain if the opponent doesn't have an answer for it, because you're either dropping an insanely powerful fatty (for some builds), or you're dropping your entire hand.


However, although metalworker is slow, that is not its largest fault. Metalworker skews every other card choice decision in deck building. In the manabase it suggests you run more artifact lands, lands that are more fragile to both destruction and invalidation (null rod).

Well, I guess this depends on the build, but there are other synergies for running a high artifact count besides just Metalworker. Forgemaster needs 3 artifacts on the board to sac, Welder needs artifacts on the board to sac, Mechanist needs artifacts on top of your library to draw, Transmuter needs artifacts on the board to bounce, so on and so forth. Is it worth picking up some vulnerabilities against specific hate like Null Rod and splash hate like Pernicious Deed to be more objectively broken against everything else? I think so, but I don't expect everyone to share my opinion on that.


It tempts you to run high mana cost threats which are dependent on fragile engines to sneak into play (of which you must run in high enough numbers to find). And it presents the most tempting target to opponents, one that the current decks to beat all can respond to.

If Metalworker alone tempts people to run high cost artifacts, then that's the actual problem. If you're relying on a 4-of in order to play your spells, you're building your deck wrong. That doesn't mean the bigger costed spells strategy doesn't work, it just means you need more than Metalworker to do so. In fact, I think it is far more suicidal to rely on hardcasting 6cc spells with no enablers, than it is to cheat in big fatties when you run a large enough density of enablers.

Why all the hate for the mana + bombs approach? The stompy approach is strong, but it's not the only viable means of building a successful MUD deck.


SIDEBAR: I was talking to some friends last night about give black its ability to tutor back, and what sort of card could be printable, and the conclusion was that the biggest value the black tutors have is that they hide information. Vamperic tutor is still bonkers even though it doesn't put the card in your hand because you opponent can only guess at what you found.

Okay, that's nice and all, but do you think that leading out with Grim Monolith is any better at hiding information than Metalworker is? The opponent is going to know you're playing MUD as soon as you drop any typical MUD artifact. Once you get to the point where you actually do reveal cards off of a Metalworker, the information is largely irrelevant. If the opponent lets you untap with a Metalworker, no amount of information about your hand is worth more than the upwards of 8-10 mana that you can be making off of a single Metalworker (which is actually 12-14 mana once you tap your lands as well). 12 mana means you can drop 2 Lodestones and a Jitte + equip in a stompy shell, or any fattie (or two) in a mana + bombs shell.


Metalworker is not a imperial seal, its a sorcery speed mystical, you write on the wall your strategy and give your opponent every opportunity to invalidate it. Did you lay it on turn one using a city into basalt and so just removing it is best, or can they discard the bomb you intend to play, or just counter the bomb, or set up a terminus........ I could go on. Like any tutor metalworker is just an enabler... it cannot win the game by itself.

I agree. I wonder why so many people think Brainstorm is good, I mean, it can't even win the game by itself... they must know something that I don't.

Basically, in a nutshell, Metalworker is ridiculously overpowered for what it does, and you're giving yourself a vasectomy by not running it. Sure, you may think you're more stable without your hormones raging, but all you really did was lose explosiveness.


I could go on... we could talk about how it tempts you to play lightning greaves to "fix" these problems, or how top-decking it almost always is bad... but I don't want to anymore.

Every single point you've brought up has been a minor nitpick, which is something that can be done for literally every single card in the game. What you neglected to mention is that for 3 mana, you're getting a 1/2 creature that can tap for 6-8 mana on average with a large enough artifact count, in a deck that is designed to make 3 mana very easily between the Moxes, Sol lands, etc.


However, I will say this, instead of running "some sort of additional acceleration or ways to cheat them in" and gobs of high cost threats, I think powering out bomby spells turn 1 and 2 is where this deck makes its money. Chalice on one, magus of the moon, impending disaster, lodestone golem, Crucible of worlds, revoker(on LED, TOP, Pridemage, Knight, Vial), cursed totem, tangle wire, or ratchet bomb; these all change the value of our opponents cards.

There's a big difference between bomby 3cc and 4cc spells, and bomby 6cc+ spells. I understand the attraction with going the lower cc route... it's more consistent since it doesn't rely on mana ramp and/or enablers. But I cannot remotely understand how those 3cc and 4cc bombs are objectively more powerful, or "change the value of the opponent's cards" more significantly. I mean, I'd much rather destroy multiple lands on a 7/10 body, rather than turn nonbasics into Mountains on a 2/2 body, if we're looking specifically at their board impact... but maybe that's just me.

My point there was this: there is nothing wrong with going the lower cc route. It's a fine strategy, and it gains consistency by not needing enablers or nearly as much mana ramp to be effective. But to criticize the mana + bombs approach by implying that the lower cc bombs "change the value of the opponent's cards" more than the higher cc bombs, is borderline retarded. There is a reason the bigger spells cost more... it's because they are much more powerful once resolved.


he best deck in today's format are meant to use slight interactions to eek out little advantages, brainstorm/fetchland being the most popular. If we can attack that, if we can make their cards into impulses and teramorphic expanse, we will win.

Brainstorm doesn't win the game though, so it's just as horrible as Metalworker, no?

All jokes aside, I fail to understand what eeking out little advantages has anything to do with the rest of your arguments. Were you implying that your list is better at eeking out little advantages than every other MUD list? Because that's the only correlation I can seem to make from your point, but I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. If I'm off base here, feel free to explain further. I misunderstood what Koby was trying to say earlier, so it's quite possible I'm misunderstanding what you meant by this.


As for show and tell, I think the fact that they are playing Liliana and can edict back makes this a bad line of play... Then again, I wouldn't have any battlespheres or colossi in my deck to really take advantage of it anyway...

Sure, if I can't Show and Tell after the game gets to a point where they can cast Liliana, and I'm not dropping something with some sort of ETB effect, LTB effect, or even something like Jin-Gitaxias or Griselbrand, then I'm going to get blown out. My list is nothing but high value ETB creatures and enablers though (and I'm obviously not going to SNT an enabler onto the board).

I think SNT could be a really strong sideboard plan against more matchups than just B/G decks, too. I thought about it as an options against B/G decks because I liked the fact that it would allow me to recover against an onslaught of land destruction, creature removal, and other permanent removal. I can't really think of many other better options to deal with the resource denial plan... paying 2U for something significantly more expensive seems like one of the better ideas for dealing with B/G decks. My only concern with it is whether or not it will still be effective when they have discard, but I'm hopeful right now, since I am running many spells that I would benefit from it (I mean hell, it's a Seething Song for Foregmaster and Sphinx, and that's about as least broken of a play as it gets for my list).

Obviously in a stompy list it's going to be awful. I was asking what people thought about it in a list like mine, that already maindecks fatties, and could board into more fatties + SNT as a quasi-transformational sideboard.

[dillonkbase]

Do you think that having Lodestone Golem eat the same removal but costing the opponent 2 mana instead is any better?

Yes, because if they only play 6 lands that can tap for mana (and I can wasteland one), or I can stop them from playing a threat(because they used it all to kill my golem) I am getting ahead.




There is a reason why Metalworker has a bullseye for removal... if the opponent doesn't kill him, they probably lose. The fact is, Metalworker is a massive momentum gain if the opponent doesn't have an answer for it, because you're either dropping an insanely powerful fatty (for some builds), or you're dropping your entire hand. I disagree, I think Metalworker is a bullseye for removal because if they remove it after you spent time building you game around its abilities, you are going to lose.... and loss big when I wasteland your nonbasics and stifle your forgemaster activation.





Well, I guess this depends on the build, but there are other synergies for running a high artifact count besides just Metalworker. Forgemaster needs 3 artifacts on the board to sac, Welder needs artifacts on the board to sac, Mechanist needs artifacts on top of your library to draw, Transmuter needs artifacts on the board to bounce, so on and so forth. Is it worth picking up some vulnerabilities against specific hate like Null Rod and splash hate like Pernicious Deed to be more objectively broken against everything else? I think so, but I don't expect everyone to share my opinion on that.
Not if you don't have to



If Metalworker alone tempts people to run high cost artifacts, then that's the actual problem. If you're relying on a 4-of in order to play your spells, you're building your deck wrong. That doesn't mean the bigger costed spells strategy doesn't work, it just means you need more than Metalworker to do so. In fact, I think it is far more suicidal to rely on hardcasting 6cc spells with no enablers, than it is to cheat in big fatties when you run a large enough density of enablers.
I think metalworker, the sol lands, and forgemaster leads people to play overcosted cards.



Why all the hate for the mana + bombs approach? The stompy approach is strong, but it's not the only viable means of building a successful MUD deck.
Lots of decks are viable, but I want to talk with others about building the best. I want to win, and if I am not playing the best deck I can pilot that isn't much help. Sure mana+bombs is fun, but it's not the best. And stompy might not be the best either, but with the shell of SOL Lands and some artifacts what is the best? Don't you want to play it.



Okay, that's nice and all, but do you think that leading out with Grim Monolith is any better at hiding information than Metalworker is? The opponent is going to know you're playing MUD as soon as you drop any typical MUD artifact.
Yeah, it is better, because its pretty hard to do anything about that monolith, the metalworker though.....




Basically, in a nutshell, Metalworker is ridiculously overpowered for what it does, and you're giving yourself a vasectomy by not running it. Sure, you may think you're more stable without your hormones raging, but all you really did was lose explosiveness.
I'd rather narrowly beat 8 opponents than blow out 4 and blow up 4.




There's a big difference between bomby 3cc and 4cc spells, and bomby 6cc+ spells. I understand the attraction with going the lower cc route... it's more consistent since it doesn't rely on mana ramp and/or enablers. But I cannot remotely understand how those 3cc and 4cc bombs are objectively more powerful, or "change the value of the opponent's cards" more significantly. I mean, I'd much rather destroy multiple lands on a 7/10 body, rather than turn nonbasics into Mountains on a 2/2 body, if we're looking specifically at their board impact... but maybe that's just me.

My point there was this: there is nothing wrong with going the lower cc route. It's a fine strategy, and it gains consistency by not needing enablers or nearly as much mana ramp to be effective. But to criticize the mana + bombs approach by implying that the lower cc bombs "change the value of the opponent's cards" more than the higher cc bombs, is borderline retarded. There is a reason the bigger spells cost more... it's because they are much more powerful once resolved.

Consistency is the key, its why I want to play more threats and less ramp, more lands, lower cost spells. ect....

The 3 and 4 cc spells are more powerful because I can cast them.




Were you implying that your list is better at eeking out little advantages than every other MUD list?

I am.


well, maybe not.... but we should be trying to find out if it is.

[bruizar]

anyone ever mess around with Conch Horn in list that use bonfire?

I am going to brew a boros list with entreat the angels and bonfires and a red control list with 4 bonfires and 4 goblin welders. Conch Horn looks really good so hopefully i can get some lists going soon.

[Hanni]

Dilkon, it almost sounds to me like you'd be better off playing Canadian Threshold than MUD. If you want relatively 50/50 matchups against most of the field, that's going to be your best bet. Or maybe The Rock, which is also roughly 50/50 against most of the field. Trying to tune MUD to do the same seems pointless, since you're taking away all of the things that make the deck incredibly powerful... to improve what matchups, excactly, and improve them by how much?


I'd rather narrowly beat 8 opponents than blow out 4 and blow up 4.

This is an oversimplification though. I'd rather dominate in 5 and get beaten badly in 1, than narrowly beat 8. What matchups are you talking about? This isn't the sort of thing you can simply oversimplify for dramatic effect. What matchups have you been destroyed by to warrant all of your hatred for Metalworker?

And regardless if Metalworker leads to bad deckbuilding via players relying on him for their entire deck to function, he's still overpowered and you're only weakening your deck by not playing him.

And I agree that consistency is key, which is why my U/b list runs card filter, tutors, and tons of card advantage. I disagree with you if you think that the mana + bombs approach isn't consistent, though. I can understand that many people have never tried Transmuter, or still believe that he is jank, but the mana + bombs approach has been working very well for me. I guess maybe that's why I don't understand all of your hatred towards the mana + bombs approach, and disagree with alot of what you have been saying.


I am.

Yea I don't know about that one, but I'm not going to get into that sort of discussion.


I am going to brew a boros list with entreat the angels and bonfires and a red control list with 4 bonfires and 4 goblin welders. Conch Horn looks really good so hopefully i can get some lists going soon.

At the point where you are going to run two different Miracles, I'd look into Scroll Rack instead.

[SirTylerGalt]

I am going to brew a boros list with entreat the angels and bonfires and a red control list with 4 bonfires and 4 goblin welders. Conch Horn looks really good so hopefully i can get some lists going soon.

While Conch Horn lets you put back a Miracle on top of your deck, I think I prefer Sensei's Divining Top if you are going to play Goblin Welder, due to the trick where you draw a card and sac top in response for +1 card advantage.

[bruizar]

While Conch Horn lets you put back a Miracle on top of your deck, I think I prefer Sensei's Divining Top if you are going to play Goblin Welder, due to the trick where you draw a card and sac top in response for +1 card advantage.

I was thinking of:

Tangle Wire
Crucible
Conch Horn
Voltaic Key
Sensei's Divining Top
Grim Monolith
Goblin Welder
Bonfire of the Damned and/or Entreat and/or Terminus

@dilonkbase

However, I will say this, instead of running "some sort of additional acceleration or ways to cheat them in" and gobs of high cost threats, I think powering out bomby spells turn 1 and 2 is where this deck makes its money.

The main problem is that people are trying to run expensive cards which require accelerants + bomb + mana, which makes MUD almost like hive mind, except that the bomb doesn't read: opponent loses the game. Basically, you need the stars to align.

What makes MUD unique is its mana base. The asymmetry of our sol lands is what we should exploit, but not to the point where playing without them causes us to lose the game.

This means either 1 of 2 options:
Sphere Effects -> Use Sol Lands to pay for sphere effects. Your opponent doesn't have sol lands, so sphere effects become asymmetrical. Asymmetry is good.

The other option is to use Sol Lands for equip costs, which means we need a list that is equipment heavy (or vedalken shackles, but it has anti-synergy with non-islands).

From a strategic point of view, sphere effects are very strong, but there are a couple of flaws with this:
- Spheres are good against combo decks, but SnT uses sol lands themselves!
- Spheres are bad when your opponent has already resolved a threat, we need to be able to answer early threats through bridge or removal.
-Thorn of Amethyst sucks. We need to impact creatures.

The following cards help this strategy:
Wasteland+Crucible
Lodestone Golem
Thalia
Sphere of Resistance
Thorn of Amethyst
Tangle Wire

[RaZe]

No offense to everyone who are advocating to drop Metalworker, lower the mana curve of the deck and introduce lock pieces as the primary strategy but I feel that you are trying to build a completely different archetype which should be on a completely different forum page. Mud Prison/Tempo [since most of the decks being suggested don't aim for a complete lock] would be an appropriate name I think.

And for my two cents on the argument, I agree with bruizar's line of thinking but would rather discuss it on a completely different page than this.

[dillonkbase]

- Spheres are bad when your opponent has already resolved a threat, we need to be able to answer early threats through bridge or removal.

The following cards help this strategy:
Wasteland+Crucible
Lodestone Golem
Thalia
Sphere of Resistance
Thorn of Amethyst
Tangle Wire

I think the card we have been underplaying is ratchet bomb. Let me explain.

If I drop a turn one chalice or magus of the moon, and but my opponent has already landed a delver, mongoose, lackey, vial, ratchet bomb is a great solution to the low mana threats are opponents are likely to be able to sneak out under the wall of spheres. The spheres force the opponents to play low cost threats, which make the bombs better. Our deck is pretty good at stopping the big stuff from resolving, its removing the small stuff that occurred before it. Now one strategy to overcome those little guys is to race by playing bigger splashy things, but I think the lower cost solution of ratchet bomb was really the card my deck was missing to handle this problem. The stars align more consistently this way.


And as the match-ups that get better if you drop the mana plus bombs approach... It's not that they get better directly, but I find that I lose to my own deck less, I am not getting blown out by all ramp or all threat hands, I just have more lines of play open because I don't need to play more vulnerable acceleration to operate my game plan.

If I stick a magus of the moon and you cannot brainstorm/fetch, and can follow it up with a koth or lodestone, I can likely ride that to victory. (The 2 Godos's stretch the mana about as far as I think is prudent, however I could definitely be convinced that a 4 or 5 drop is better)

We can disagree about the worker though, I don't know if this thread is appropriate for both styles...I think that may be the problem...



On to things I would like to hear responses about...

Koth... Opinions....thoughts? How many red sources does he need, how do you count magus(towards red sources)?

Ratchet bomb?

Godo replacements at 4 or 5 mana?

And call me the devil but I think if you go the miracles route than metalworker makes sense. Sure you can fix them with top or shell, but you can also just cast them with the worker.(and although I added the shell to the discussion, I don't really think a list like this is viable...It could be sweet though....)

[fogxanic]

Hey, I will try test Precursor Golem at stompy version. Dies to LB is big minus but 9 power with 5 mana is good. Any comments?

[dillonkbase]

Hey, I will try test Precursor Golem at stompy version. Dies to LB is big minus but 9 power with 5 mana is good. Any comments?

The bigger problem is not that all the tokens die as well to LB but that it kills Lodestone golem too and it gets lets them do it around chalice of the void......

[fogxanic]

The bigger problem is not that all the tokens die as well to LB but that it kills Lodestone golem too and it gets lets them do it around chalice of the void......

Oh you are right. Then maybe Karn, Silver Golem it could hit almost same if not blocked and attacked with some mana stones. Plus bonus it kills enemys leds, petals, chalices, moxes and even gives top summoning sickness :laugh:

[dillonkbase]

I think it would depend on your list to see if Karn (the golem) made sense, I think in some of the builds with trading post and staff of Nin he might, however, in builds like mine their are not enough targets for karn to really make sense.

[Blommis]

Hiya,

I decided to test out the lower curve MUD at a local wednesday event going 3-0-1 beating Dreamhalls Combo(2-0), Combo Elves(2-1), U/W Miracles(2-0) and ID against UBr ANT (thou we played out first 2 games 1-1.)

List:
// Deck: Moon.Mud (60)

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
5 Mountain
4 Wasteland

// Creatures
2 Goblin Welder
2 Godo, Bandit Warlord
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Moltensteel Dragon
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Razormane Masticore

// Spells
2 Batterskull
2 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Diamond
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Bonfire of the Damned
SB: 2 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 Cursed Totem
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Karn Liberated
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Staff of Nin
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt


I really love the maindeck as it is with the Chalices, Trinispheres, Maguses and Tangle Wires as control elements, Bonfires and Bombs as removal along with the Godo and small guys as a finisher.
The lower manacurve allowed me to cut down Grim Monoliths down to 3 and i never missed the fourth one and might even cut them down to 2.
Magus of the Moon really makes this deck pack an extra punch against control matches as you'll easily resolve him with Cavern of Souls.

If I'm to cut down more Monoliths i might try out 2 Koth of the Hammer in the sideboard instead Karns and likely a Spine or two against S&T decks.
Revokers propably needs more slots as the format is full of targets...

Any thoughts/questions ?

[fogxanic]

I think it would depend on your list to see if Karn (the golem) made sense, I think in some of the builds with trading post and staff of Nin he might, however, in builds like mine their are not enough targets for karn to really make sense.

List is:

Lands

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
4x Darksteel Citadel
2x Mishra's Factory
2x Buried Ruin
1x Rishadan Port
2x Cavern of Souls
4x Wasteland

Creatures

4x Metalworker
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Lodestone Golem
2x Steel Hellkite
2x Wurmcoil Engine

Other

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
3x Thran Dynamo
3x Tangle Wire
2x Lightning Greaves
2x Karn Liberated
3x Staff of Nin
3x Voltaic Key

I think here are not enough threads but don't know yet sure because I haven't tested this build.

[dillonkbase]

Other

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
3x Thran Dynamo
3x Tangle Wire
2x Lightning Greaves
2x Karn Liberated
3x Staff of Nin
3x Voltaic Key

I think here are not enough threads but don't know yet sure because I haven't tested this build.
)
Dynamo and Staff of Nin make good animation targets, however I'm not sure if they really make Karn(golem) worth it.



Hiya,

I decided to test out the lower curve MUD at a local wednesday event going 3-0-1 beating Dreamhalls Combo(2-0), Combo Elves(2-1), U/W Miracles(2-0) and ID against UBr ANT (thou we played out first 2 games 1-1.)



I really love the maindeck as it is with the Chalices, Trinispheres, Maguses and Tangle Wires as control elements, Bonfires and Bombs as removal along with the Godo and small guys as a finisher.
The lower manacurve allowed me to cut down Grim Monoliths down to 3 and i never missed the fourth one and might even cut them down to 2.
Magus of the Moon really makes this deck pack an extra punch against control matches as you'll easily resolve him with Cavern of Souls.

If I'm to cut down more Monoliths i might try out 2 Koth of the Hammer in the sideboard instead Karns and likely a Spine or two against S&T decks.
Revokers propably needs more slots as the format is full of targets...

Any thoughts/questions ?
First great job, I bet you could have won that last one against Ant.

I think cutting monolith can have value, although I do like having an abundance of moxes and lands...



What are your thoughts on welder without wurmcoil, its good with tanglewire but otherwise?
Did any of your Singleton critters outperform their brothers?

Is the defense grid required with Cavern? Who are the staff of Nin for? Fire and Ice vs Jitte(your thoughts)?

[Blommis]

First great job, I bet you could have won that last one against Ant.
Thanks, but it was against a friend so we decided it was fair to not play it out :)



What are your thoughts on welder without wurmcoil, its good with tanglewire but otherwise?
I never did draw the welders but i will test them again at the next tournament on sunday and i'll let you know what they did.


Did any of your Singleton critters outperform their brothers?

2 games were won by Moltensteel Dragon 1-hit after a magus+chalice/trini soft lock.


Is the defense grid required with Cavern? Who are the staff of Nin for? Fire and Ice vs Jitte(your thoughts)?

Defense Grid is another soft lock that needs to be countered, othervise you'll just get buried under different lock pieces.
Staff of Nin was there against U/W miracles, but it might get axed.
I did ponder the SoFaI vs Jitte before the tournament, but i didnt have Jitte so i did run the sword instead. Lousy excuse, got to get Jitte..

[dillonkbase]

I did ponder the SoFaI vs Jitte before the tournament, but i didnt have Jitte so i did run the sword instead. Lousy excuse, got to get Jitte..

So if you had a jitte why would it be better? I just like it because its cheaper to cast.



Staff of Nin was there against U/W miracles, but it might get axed.

Did you have enough mana to cast it vs them... did it resolve(I think the value of cavern is lost when your big drops are not critters). I think against UW, MUD is the Beatdown, and so I don't really want the game to go as long as required for staff to pay off. This is why I am testing out impending disaster, it lets the gamestate stay "young".




Defense Grid is another soft lock that needs to be countered, otherwise you'll just get buried under different lock pieces.

I worry about getting choked on lock pieces and mana sources and not being able to close out the game. Was this a problem at all?


2 games were won by Moltensteel Dragon 1-hit after a magus+chalice/trini soft lock. Do you think it's better than razormane?


Also Trini and Moon seem like a little bit of a nonbo, I mean if they have the color of mana they need they probably have some mountains to pay the trini cost?


Thoughts?

[Alex Holland]

Hiya,

I decided to test out the lower curve MUD at a local wednesday event going 3-0-1 beating Dreamhalls Combo(2-0), Combo Elves(2-1), U/W Miracles(2-0) and ID against UBr ANT (thou we played out first 2 games 1-1.)

List:
// Deck: Moon.Mud (60)

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
5 Mountain
4 Wasteland

// Creatures
2 Goblin Welder
2 Godo, Bandit Warlord
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Moltensteel Dragon
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Razormane Masticore

// Spells
2 Batterskull
2 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Diamond
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Bonfire of the Damned
SB: 2 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 Cursed Totem
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Karn Liberated
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Staff of Nin
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt


I really love the maindeck as it is with the Chalices, Trinispheres, Maguses and Tangle Wires as control elements, Bonfires and Bombs as removal along with the Godo and small guys as a finisher.
The lower manacurve allowed me to cut down Grim Monoliths down to 3 and i never missed the fourth one and might even cut them down to 2.
Magus of the Moon really makes this deck pack an extra punch against control matches as you'll easily resolve him with Cavern of Souls.

If I'm to cut down more Monoliths i might try out 2 Koth of the Hammer in the sideboard instead Karns and likely a Spine or two against S&T decks.
Revokers propably needs more slots as the format is full of targets...

Any thoughts/questions ?

Why somany one off creatures? U cant tutor so its kinda senseless.
I would drop welder and the mox diamonds. I have a similar list wich i posted some time ago, only difference is i play 4 batterskull. Because hes perfectly casteble for 5 mana and because of godo ofcourse. Jitte is nice too. I would add thran dynamo because its just more reliable then dynamo. + karn liberated; he can get rid of things u now cant handle, like a moat or something. I love magus of the moon + he adds a nice combo with moltensteel dragon as a finisher. Speaking about finishers; why not adding one more bonfire? Its crazy if you play hin with metalworker in play just burning whole armies!

[dillonkbase]

Why somany one off creatures? U cant tutor so its kinda senseless.
I would drop welder and the mox diamonds. I have a similar list wich i posted some time ago, only difference is i play 4 batterskull. Because hes perfectly casteble for 5 mana and because of godo ofcourse. Jitte is nice too. I would add thran dynamo because its just more reliable then dynamo. + karn liberated; he can get rid of things u now cant handle, like a moat or something. I love magus of the moon + he adds a nice combo with moltensteel dragon as a finisher. Speaking about finishers; why not adding one more bonfire? Its crazy if you play hin with metalworker in play just burning whole armies!

Diamond lets you drop more turn one chalices and magus/trinisphere.


As for more Bonfire, when your in topdeck mode you probably don't have a hand to power metalworker, so that's a little bit of a nonbo, if its your turn two metalworker, then you only can really power the bonfire turn 3, otherwise you would probably drop the artifacts....right? And if that's the case do you really need to bonfire turn 3(do you hit the maximum critters then)?

However at the end of the day this list isn't playing the worker(a nonbo with diamond) so I think it makes sense...

I do think that getting ride of some of the 1 off's does make sense, just have to figure out which ones.(but you play singletons when you are running a new deck to see what works)

[Greenpoe]

As for more Bonfire, when your in topdeck mode you probably don't have a hand to power metalworker, so that's a little bit of a nonbo, if its your turn two metalworker, then you only can really power the bonfire turn 3, otherwise you would probably drop the artifacts....right? And if that's the case do you really need to bonfire turn 3(do you hit the maximum critters then)?


Not really a nonbo...if you're in topdeck mode with MUD, you should have plenty of mana available to Bonfire for a bunch.

[kingofethanol]

I continue to believe that MUD is at its best when it lowers its curve. The sooner you are putting control elements on the table the better off you are. Metalworker is just too slow and wurmcoil is to bad vs swords.

What? Metalworker is so broken. Without that card the deck is actually just Affinity. :wink:

Just glazing though most of these messages, it seems like we all have different lists that do well in different metagames and against opponents with different skill levels. For example, I believe Miracles is a match up in our favor. I crush all Miracles players, but when I played against the guy who got second at SCG Dallas I got destroyed. Perfect demonstration of the importance of analyzing what is being played and who is good at playing what they play.

Most of the cards being discussed are playable, just tune your deck to best fit your meta. Some card choices are obviously right (like Metalworker) or wrong, but we can still have plenty of options. Due to the nature of the cards we are trying to abuse, deck tuning becomes much more important to us than other decks that have access to card selection. Come here with questions and suggestions, we're here to simplify the tuning process.

[Alex Holland]

About every list:

Mox diamond- to do or not to do? He adds acceleration t1. But he costs you a card. Arent the sol lands enough to drop t1 monolith or chalice? Im hesitant to trade in more cards for mana, already play 3 monoliths and dynamos.

For godo: flowstone dragon yes or no? It has nice evasion but do we really need it or could we just add more protection swords? Sure lodestone isnt pumpable but does it matter? When i have him chalice and magus they will just die slowely right?

[kingofethanol]

Mox Diamond can:
-make a "land" that is invulnerable to Wasteland
-increase the chances of making :2: on turn one
-filter color
-do wonders with Crucible
-help you play around City's drawback
-feed Metalworker when none of the above are being applied
I think it's a great card if your deck runs a healthy amount of lands. The card it cost you was going to be played anyway. Not necessary if you think your mana base is stable enough. If you want to try it throw two or three in your deck and see how you like the extra bonus (or drawback).

I don't know what Flowstone Dragon is.

[Alex Holland]

Flowstone = moltensteel. Im on my cellphone so accidents happen.

[bruizar]

Mox Diamond is just a really bad card. I used to always play mox diamond but then i found out the reason why i was losing was because of mox diamond. Mox Diamond forces you to run crucible of worlds which forces you to run wasteland. Thats a lot of design decisions that are already made. But thats not even the big problem. The problem is that you need the landsin play, not in your graveyard. The card disadvantage and the horrible top deck makes the card a big trap.

[Blommis]

So if you had a jitte why would it be better? I just like it because its cheaper to cast.

Jitte might do more in random metagame than SoFaI, thou both act as removal and speed up the clock. I might test both of them same time.


Did you have enough mana to cast it vs them... did it resolve(I think the value of cavern is lost when your big drops are not critters). I think against UW, MUD is the Beatdown, and so I don't really want the game to go as long as required for staff to pay off. This is why I am testing out impending disaster, it lets the game state stay "young".

After some thinking process I actually did cut Staff of Nin's in favor of Koth of the Hammers, which should bring more value to more matchups especially when i got bridges on side against spaghetti monsters.
Impending Disaster sounds really insane, got to test that out, nice find !


I worry about getting choked on lock pieces and mana sources and not being able to close out the game. Was this a problem at all?
There were never overabundance of lock pieces, and 16 creatures seemed to be good number of possible finishers.


Do you think it's better than razormane?

Moltensteel Dragon serves a different purpose, Razormane acts like The Abyss against certain decks, Dragon just alpha strikes unprepared/locked out players.


Also Trini and Moon seem like a little bit of a nonbo, I mean if they have the color of mana they need they probably have some mountains to pay the trini cost?
Magus of the Moon is here to punish greedy mana bases, trini is to punish tempo decks. If i got both in play that means they either cant play spells at all, are locked out of splashed colors or are just casting 1 lousy spell a turn. I cannot see how this is a Nonbo, its not like im show and telling a phage the untouchable in to play.


Why somany one off creatures? U cant tutor so its kinda senseless.
Like someone stated, when testing out a new version of a deck, you really want to test different creatures to see how they perform. Can't really trust in other testing data from others when the deck is so much different..


Diamond lets you drop more turn one chalices and magus/trinisphere.
This is why i never will cut down moxes below 3.

I used to play Imperial Painter for 2 years before this deck and there was nothing more devastating than constantly dropping one of eight Moon effects turn 1, so why not steal some wins with it ?


What? Metalworker is so broken. Without that card the deck is actually just Affinity.
Except affinity doesn't really play any disruption :tongue:


Anyway, changed the deck previously posted with:

-2 Goblin welder
+1 Karn Silver Golem
+1 Phyrexian Revoker

SB:

-2 Staff of Nin
-2 Karn Liberated
+2 Koth of the Hammer
+2 Ensnaring Bridge

Koth's and Bridges mainly come against S&T decks. The numbers might still be off, but got to test before i can prove anything.
Karn silver golem looks good on paper; massive blocker and applies secondary beats by animating
Trinispheres and Tangle Wires.


Hope I answered all the questions directed to me and thank you for the replies, hope I didn't hit anyone's nerves :rolleyes:

Ps. Next tourney on sunday so I'll propably ragepost on how the deck bricked on me multiple times on monday. :wink:

[dillonkbase]

Karn silver golem looks good on paper; massive blocker and applies secondary beats by animating
Trinispheres and Tangle Wires.




My only comment is that although on paper Karning with wire may seem good, its often tapped due to its ability(which is why its a 3 for 10)... so carn an wire may not have the mojo you expect.

[Ttvetjanu]

I'm going to try impending disasters tomorrow; I'll try 3. The red deck with 4 magus of the moons seems very strong. A uncounterable blood moon straight up wins games. Being able to lock the game with trinisphere/impending disaster is sick. Out of the bat I can't thing of a matchup that is straight up bad for this deck. Probably show/tell variants; I'm siding in 3 ensnaring bridges against them. Trinisphere is decent against the omniscience/dream halls version. I'll try a couple crucibles.

On Mox Diamond discussion: I wouldn't play the deck without the diamonds. The speed it gives is very very useful.

[Alex Holland]

Zealous Conscripts is another cool human with one red in its cost. Only problem is that there isnt often something worth stealing.. nah, metamorph is better i think..


Karn liberated? is a MUST PLAY.

how u gonna win against a moat? tell me. Not. Im tired right now but i bet there are many permanents that need removal if you want to win. Karn liberated is the answer. And a win condition by itself. Not running it is foolish. Unless you play welder and can do spine of ish shah tricks....


Also been thinking about stoneforge.. Why not make MUD equipment.dec?

Should look something like this:

3 ethersworn cannonist (a human thats kind for artifacts!)
3 stoneforge (equipment, humans are small u know)
4 magus of the moon (mr. no u dont)
4 godo ( the batterskull dropping human)
Then throw in some equipments, 4 batterskull (hes also good hardcastable), 1 sofai, 1 solas.

Of course some more annoyers; 4 chalice 4 lodestone golem

Protection: 2 bonfire, 2 karn liberated.

+ some mana 8 sol lands. maybe metaklworker... a karakas?

hmm just red is probaly better but it always fun to study.:tongue:


This is my godo build for those interested:

4#Ancient Tomb
4#City of Traitors
4#Cavern of Souls
4#Great Furnace
5#Mountain

4#Lodestone Golem
4#Chalice of the Void
3#Magus of the Moon

3#Wurmcoil Engine

4#Godo, Bandit Warlord
4#Batterskull
1#Sword of Fire and Ice
1#Sword of Light and Shadow
2#Bonfire of the Damned

2#Karn Liberated

4#Grim Monolith
4#Thran Dynamo
3#Metalworker

[Ttvetjanu]

Zealous Conscripts is another cool human with one red in its cost. Only problem is that there isnt often something worth stealing.. nah, metamorph is better i think..


Karn liberated? is a MUST PLAY.

how u gonna win against a moat? tell me. Not. Im tired right now but i bet there are many permanents that need removal if you want to win. Karn liberated is the answer. And a win condition by itself. Not running it is foolish. Unless you play welder and can do spine of ish shah tricks....


I kinda like the white choices, but stoneforge just seems weak; very hard to activate with the manabase. Canonist belongs more in sideboard. I think if you're going white you should also be going more towards armageddon stax.

Zelaous seems very good in the sideboard against certain matchups. Koth wins thru moat. This next decklist has much less mana acceleration and more locks; running Koth seems unreasonable. Not even sure what sort of deck this is. Probably not MUD anymore. Blummis needs to invent a name (Brown moon?)

My current decklist:

4x Cavern, Wasteland, Both sol lands and
5x Mountain

3x Mox Diamond
3x Grim Monolith

4x Magus of the Moon
4x Lodestone Golem
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Godo
2x Batterskull
1x Jitte
1x Duplicant
1x Steel Hellkite

4x Trinisphere
3x Tangle Wire
2x Impending Disaster
2x Bonfire of the Damned
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Crucible of worlds


SB:
3x Chalice of the void (certain matchups)
3x Ensnaring Bridge (show tell, animator)
2x Koth of the hammer (controls (e.g. moat etc, also with bridge)
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Flex spots

[Alex Holland]

I kinda like the white choices, but stoneforge just seems weak; very hard to activate with the manabase. Canonist belongs more in sideboard. I think if you're going white you should also be going more towards armageddon stax.

Zelaous seems very good in the sideboard against certain matchups. Koth wins thru moat. This next decklist has much less mana acceleration and more locks; running Koth seems unreasonable. Not even sure what sort of deck this is. Probably not MUD anymore. Blummis needs to invent a name (Brown moon?)

My current decklist:

4x Cavern, Wasteland, Both sol lands and
5x Mountain

3x Mox Diamond
3x Grim Monolith

4x Magus of the Moon
4x Lodestone Golem
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Godo
2x Batterskull
1x Jitte
1x Duplicant
1x Steel Hellkite

4x Trinisphere
3x Tangle Wire
2x Impending Disaster
2x Bonfire of the Damned
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Crucible of worlds


SB:
3x Chalice of the void (certain matchups)
3x Ensnaring Bridge (show tell, animator)
2x Koth of the hammer (controls (e.g. moat etc, also with bridge)
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Flex spots

impending disaster is interesting..

Except i dont know wich deck in legacy needs 4+ lands to function? I think it isnt worth the space.

Oh.. Those chalices belong main always! Its such a advantage against everybody!

[bruizar]

impending disaster is interesting..

Except i dont know wich deck in legacy needs 4+ lands to function? I think it isnt worth the space.


I don't really understand why you say 4+ lands. It triggers on 7 lands in total, not on 4+ land controlled by your opponent. That means I can force a trigger with 4 lands on my side and 3 lands on his. Crucible of Worlds is a card.


Also: GSZ/Veteran Explorer/Entreat the Angels/Jace the Mindsculptor

[Ttvetjanu]

Ok, the previous decklist was bad. Impending disaster is not good. Opponents can mostly choose when it's triggered so they get the advantage. I will also maindeck chalices.

[fogxanic]

List is:

Lands

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
4x Darksteel Citadel
2x Mishra's Factory
2x Buried Ruin
1x Rishadan Port
2x Cavern of Souls
4x Wasteland

Creatures

4x Metalworker
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Lodestone Golem
2x Steel Hellkite
2x Wurmcoil Engine

Other

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
3x Thran Dynamo
3x Tangle Wire
2x Lightning Greaves
2x Karn Liberated
3x Staff of Nin
3x Voltaic Key

I think here are not enough threads but don't know yet sure because I haven't tested this build.

Now I did some play testing and results are: tangle wires are very strong against almost anything!, buried ruins doesn't impress me usually just makes mana maybe I'll replace them with factorys/caverns/ports, pox is hard matchup any ideas agaist it?
I did some changes.
- 1 voltaic key (usually I get it in starting hand with nothing that comboes with it or with sol-land and chalice so I play chalice@1 and key is useless again but sometimes it enables t1 lodestone golem with monolith)
+ 1 Karn, Silver Golem (haven't casted it yet but its for testing)

[Loxmatii]

hello, friends!
i have just finished reading all this thread
a lot of interesting things to think and discuss

what do you think about crystall ball? i use this card into stax_decks. may be it can be good in middle game with chalice? it is a great sorrow to play without top with chalice on 1 without creatures. only lands. ball can help us to improve topdecks.

and the second card is Aeolipile. trying to play stax and control mud i found, that teeg can be a great problem. and this card is a good solution. you can play it with welder or with academy ruins. it can beat delver, mystic, jace and so on. i like two copies of it in ub_tezeret_stax

so, what do you think about this cards?

[Blommis]

Hiya guys,

The tournament went as i suspected ended up crushing dredge and random.deck and losing to Goblins twice and dropping due this.
Tangle Wires need to be creatures so im dropping them for more batterskulls and a Godo, perhaps adding one more Bonfire to maindeck instead Ratchet Bomb.
Not sure if i want to play Wurmcoils without the fourth Monolith and/or Metalworkers.

As for Crystal ball: I used to play it in Dutch and Armageddon Stax where it belongs IMHO, but if one wants card filter/draw I'd go for Staff of Nin.

Has anyone tried out Mind Stone for ramp if yes, how did it perform ?

[Blommis]

Greetings,

Yet another local tournament of 26 players behind, went 3-1.

Round 1. Combo Elves
I lose the die roll.
My opponent starts with Savannah in to Nettle sentinel, go. I begin the game with City of Traitors -> Chalice 1. He draws, attacks, doesn't lay a land and passes.
I continue with another City breaking the previous one and cast a Lodestone golem. He draws and passes. A topdecked mountain in to Trinisphere makes him gather his cards.

Second game he mulligans to 3 while I begin the game with Chalice X=1 and the game is over.

2-0

Round 2. Zombardment
G1
I lose the die roll, keep a hand consisting Blood moon, few lands, Chalice, Lodestone, Trinisphere. The Chalice gets molested by a turn 1 Thoughtseize, on my turn I play a Mountain and pass. 2nd turn he lands a Gravecrawler. I get a City off the top and resolve a Blood Moon and pass.. After that the notes are hazy, Crawler beats for a while, I land a Trinisphere, he Entombs for Faithless looting and lands few Bloodghasts and a Bombardment which I am able to race with Moltensteel Helkite and a Revoker naming that Bombardment. My life totals go from 18,16,14,12,10 to 4 while his drop from 18 -> 10 -> 0.

G2
He begins with a Faithless Looting discarding Vengevine and Bloodghast. I follow on my turn with Mountain, Mox Diamond -> Chalice for 1. Turn 2 he casts couple creatures that get countered but enable Vengevine, also Bloodghast jumps out of the grave, I drop to 16. On my turn I draw a Batterskull holding a Moltensteel, City and Mountain, I play the Mountain and pass. On his turn I drop to 10 life. I draw a blank and play Batterskull pass. Yet again my awesome notes are all messed up as my life totals go from 10 -> 6 -> 10 -> 6->10->18 while his go from 19->15->7-> -8 which means I managed to land the Moltensteel Dragon, trade my Germ Token for Vengevine and equip the Dragon with the Batterskull beating him down with an Firebreathing, Lifelinking, Vigilant 8/8 flyer.

2-0

Round 3. Goblins

G1
Beatings, damage, despair, Miracle Bonfire X =3 followed by a Batterskull, Golem and another Bonfire. Next.

G2.
Get run over by a horde of Goblins, next.

G3.
2x Mountain,Mox, Trinisphere, Bonfire, Godo, Tomb. Keep.

I begin the game with Mountain, go. He follows up with Mountain, Lackey go. I draw a Cavern, play a Mountain, Mox discarding Cavern -> Trinisphere. He draws a Wasteland, attacks with lackey, drops SGC and pass. On my turn I play out Ancient Tomb in to Bonfire X = 2 he responds via shooting me with a goblin token dropping me to 15, I pass. He gets third land and resolves a Piledriver, pass. I draw a blank and resolve Batterskull. He draws, plays out Ringleader, gets few Goblins and passes. On my turn I draw a land, attack him to 13 while I go to 17, play the land, resolve a Godo fetching Batterskull. Turn after I topdeck another Bonfire sweeping his board and attack him for 22 damage.

2-1

Round 4. BUG Delver

G1
I win the die roll, start out with Ancient tomb in to Jitte, my opponent plays a Misty Rainforest, fetches an UG sea and plays out Deathrite shaman and pass. I drop a Cavern of souls naming Human, Resolve an uncounterable Magus of the Moon and we're off to the second game after a minute of thinking.

G2
I really need to start taking better notes. My Chalice gets discarded turn 1, 3-Sphere gets countered and my hand gets demolished by 2 Hymn to Tourach hitting my lands on consecutive turns. I die a quick death to Delver and Shaman followed by a Tarmogoyf.

G3

My first hand consists 5 lands, Mox diamond, Bonfire. Mulligan.
Second hand contains 1 Mountain and a Mox.
Mulligan in to 5 takes me to wonderland of no manasources.
Mull to four and I get a hand of Magus, Ancient tomb, Trinisphere, Batterskull. Keep.
I lead off with Tomb pass, he goes land Delver, go. I topdeck Ancient tomb and try to resolve a 3-Sphere which gets Forced. Topdecking a Cavern would have granted me a win, now I just die while an Insect Grinds me to death.

1-2

List:

// Deck: Moon.Mud (60)

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
9 Mountain

// Creatures
3 Godo, Bandit Warlord
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Moltensteel Dragon
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Steel Hellkite

// Spells
3 Batterskull
2 Blood Moon
3 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Diamond
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Trinisphere
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Bonfire of the Damned
SB: 2 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 Cursed Totem
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Koth of the Hammer
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Powder Keg
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt

As you can see I did some changes to the previously posted list. Blood Moons are more justified than Wastelands when you're playing a set of Maguses already. Never missed them.
Moltensteel needs to be 2-of, Masticore will get the axe as I never wanted to play him if I had almost anything else to play out.
The sideboard needs some tuning, I might get my face rolled against S&T decks.
Bonfire of the Damned has been an allstar during the last couple tournaments and definately belongs as 4 in the 75.
The SoFaI might get axed for 1 more creature/Batterskull, the threat density needs to be higher.

[MTG Junkie]

It's been a long time since iv even messed with my MUD deck. I wanna pick up where I left off,I left off with a Forgemaster/COTV/Sylvain Library build.
I really like Sylvain in the deck. When I was playing It I always thought it needs shuffle effects to improve Sylvan, thinking some Fetchs maybe?
Also there has to be some other good Green support cards to complament the deck. I really just can't think of any besides the already suggested Summeners Trap.

Anybody.....lol? All ideas are welcome.

[Fry]

I don't think that you need to have the green for library if you're looking for the card advantage. Staff of Nin is great and it pings every turn. I would say that depending on your build, the staff could be amazing. I personally have a more combo version of the deck with Forgemasters and Metalworkers so I am able to tutor for them (I run two) and the extra draw a turn is amazing and you don't have to pay 4 life to get it either like Sylvan Library.

[Alex Holland]

Blommis,

These are good results, i never figured out moltensteel dragon works so nice with batterskulls lifelink! I think steelhellkite isnt necessary because bonfire already provides a good sweeper right?
I still think adding some karn planeswalkers could help you with spot removal. Good idea to play 6x moon effects- thats crazy never saw that before. Do you feel tempted to go to eight moon effects ???? ;)

[Blommis]

Blommis,

These are good results, i never figured out moltensteel dragon works so nice with batterskulls lifelink! I think steelhellkite isnt necessary because bonfire already provides a good sweeper right?
I still think adding some karn planeswalkers could help you with spot removal. Good idea to play 6x moon effects- thats crazy never saw that before. Do you feel tempted to go to eight moon effects ???? ;)

The Steel Hellkite is there cause I really did not figure out better flyer that still packs in utility and going up to 3 Moltensteels could be overkill. Karn might be good in his place thou, but after you add one Karn to the list, you start wanting to add another also. :smile:

The Moon effects are just insane, but without any extra filtering (Conch Horn/Chrome Mox/Faithless/Trading Post) I wouldnt up the count on maindeck, unless your meta is 95% manabase greedy decks.

[fogxanic]

The Steel Hellkite is there cause I really did not figure out better flyer that still packs in utility and going up to 3 Moltensteels could be overkill. Karn might be good in his place thou, but after you add one Karn to the list, you start wanting to add another also. :smile:

The Moon effects are just insane, but without any extra filtering (Conch Horn/Chrome Mox/Faithless/Trading Post) I wouldnt up the count on maindeck, unless your meta is 95% manabase greedy decks.

Put Immolating Souleater in. After that add Fling for t2 kill :cool:

[bruizar]

report + list

Its really awesome to see that you're piloting these beautiful red cards. I think you are making a wise decision upping the moltensteel's to 2. I've been playing 2 Moltensteels for a while and they can really steal games. Bonfire of the Damned is an awesome awesome card. I'm currently redesigning my list and will test the 4 Conch Shells that came in today to set up miracles more consistently without Brainstorm. We'll see how effective that will be.

I am tempted to try and run moon effects again. I played them in the past but they were too easy to play around back then. Didn't your opponents crack fetch to grab basics in response to a moon effect?

[fogxanic]

I played yesterday with my mud at wpn premium event - poromagia and placed 11 out of 106. Match ups were:

2-0 UB Deathshadow
0-2 RUG Delver
2-1 UR Delvermagus
2-1 12-post
1-2 Jund zombies/vengevine
2-1 Storm
2-1 BUG control

Matches I lost were both using Ancient Grudges at side. So I figured that I need to use some better graveyard hate to take atleast flashback ability from ancient grudge. Relic cc is 1 so it doesn't work well with chalice 1 also surgical is out of use witch both would be very good. Maybe I should add 1 more mox and some white mana and try rest in peace, any thoughts?

MUD

Land: 22

4x Ancient Tomb
2x Cavern of Souls
3x City of Traitors
1x Crystal Vein
4x Darksteel Citadel
1x Karakas
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

Creatures: 17

1x Karn, Silver Golem
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Steel Hellkite
2x Wurmcoil Engine

Spells: 21

3x Batterskull
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
2x Karn Liberated
1x Mox Diamond
2x Staff of Nin
3x Thran Dynamo
2x Voltaic Key

Side: 15

1x Cursed Totem
2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Serum Powder
1x Spine of Ish Sah
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Trinisphere

[dillonkbase]

Went 3-1 yesterday at my LGS, my list continue to have problems against active Knight of the Reliquaries, which is probably the place that wurmcoil engines really help (deathtouch) versus the godo in my list. However wurmcoil is a huge target for swords.

How are people dealing with Abupt decay(on chalice or 3sphere) and knight in these deathrite shaman brews. I just am not sure how to fix these Bant/BUG/BWG matches yet and looking for some idea's.

[bruizar]

I'd try Duplicant over Wurmcoil Engine I think. Duplicant ensures you kill at least something. Wurmcoil is great when it's good, but its terrible in the scenarios where its bad.

[AllIsDust]

I have actually been worrying about abrupt decay destroying our early mana and chalice. I have been using 3 spellskite to try to solve this problem and the card has been very good for me.

[dillonkbase]

I have actually been worrying about abrupt decay destroying our early mana and chalice. I have been using 3 spellskite to try to solve this problem and the card has been very good for me.

For the builds supporting blue I have be thinking about misdirection, but in my red build so far my solution is just messing with their mana.

As for duplicant, it does solve the problem of getting not getting value from wurmcoil, but I think I am still happy with godo...maybe a sword of X and Y to help with knights is best.

[Bobmans]

For the builds supporting blue I have be thinking about misdirection, but in my red build so far my solution is just messing with their mana.

As for duplicant, it does solve the problem of getting not getting value from wurmcoil, but I think I am still happy with godo...maybe a sword of X and Y to help with knights is best.

Maybe sword of light and shadow might deserve a chance in matchups with knights or abrupt decay. Although it does not stop abrupt decay from destroying chalice, 3shpere or the sword itself.

Or maybe darksteel plate.

Although i am still not sure if goblin welder or buried ruin is a solid plan to fight decay and deathrite shaman.

[SirTylerGalt]

I've always liked Spellskite, but if your main concern is Abrupt Decay, Welding Jar seems like a better answer. It costs 0, enables Metalcraft for Mox Opal, and you can sacrifice it to enable Goblin Welder shenanigans.

[AllIsDust]

I've always liked Spellskite, but if your main concern is Abrupt Decay, Welding Jar seems like a better answer. It costs 0, enables Metalcraft for Mox Opal, and you can sacrifice it to enable Goblin Welder shenanigans.
Problem with welder jar, it's much less flexible. You can't prevent jace bounce, stop a swords, stingscourger.. Plus spellskite can block and pick up a battleskull :tongue:

[Hanni]

Spellskite is also reusable, and regeneration doesn't do anything against exile effects like Swords to Plowshares.

[MTG Junkie]

I don't think that you need to have the green for library if you're looking for the card advantage. Staff of Nin is great and it pings every turn. I would say that depending on your build, the staff could be amazing. I personally have a more combo version of the deck with Forgemasters and Metalworkers so I am able to tutor for them (I run two) and the extra draw a turn is amazing and you don't have to pay 4 life to get it either like Sylvan Library.

Picked up a couple Staffs. They seem to be good, Thanks.

Is there a page with you're list on it?

[Fry]

MTG Junkie:
I don't post my list often since most run key/welder/bonfire/godo/etc. and my list does do any of that. In any even here's my list that I tweak from time to time to fit what I think the Meta has more of a problem with at any given moment.

Main Board:
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Grim Monolith
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
2 Staff of Nin
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Trading Post
3 Trinisphere
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Ancient TOmb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland

Side Board:
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Crawlspace
2 Duplicant
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Sundering Titan
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ward of Bones
1 Wurmcoil Engine


I've been considering taking out the crypt's and perhaps one duplicant out of the side for spellskite since it can save chalice, blightsteel, greaves, metalworker, wurmcoil, etc from things like stp, abrupt decay, burn, oblivion stone and several other things. I had noticed that I don't tend to side the crypt's in very often and when I do, they're usually just forgemaster fodder to get something like spine, bridge, duplicant, wurmcoil or some other thing that'd be more proactive(at least in my opinion).

I replaced Silent Arbiter in the side with Crawlspace. They do nearly the same thingand many decks are going to attack with either a bunch of guys (if they can), or just one guy like griselbrand, emmy, or progen. The crawlspace isn't suseptible to things like stp or wrath effects unlike the arbiter.

If they're any questions about why I play one card over another, feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer in a reasonable way, not just to say because I like it.

[Greenpoe]

Crawlspace is obviously better vs. Goblins, but Silent Arbiter is going to be better against those Abrupt Decay decks that have started rising up. Just something to keep in mind depending on what exactly you plan on using it against.

[Hanni]

Crawlspace is obviously better vs. Goblins, but Silent Arbiter is going to be better against those Abrupt Decay decks that have started rising up. Just something to keep in mind depending on what exactly you plan on using it against.

How so? Most of those decks don't swarm. Shaman deals damage without the red zone, and they usually have a fatty like Tarmogoyf or Knight of the Reliquary to swing with. Arbiter does nothing for you in that matchup, although the B/G/x matchup is awful regardless.

I also don't understand why you need Arbiter or Crawlspace for Goblins, where there are better options like Jitte and Triskelion.

[Hanni]

Sorry for the double post, but this is unrelated to the previous one.

I'm not sure how many people were interested in my U/b Masterworker list before, but I've done more playtesting since I posted my list last time, and I've refined it some more. I'm feeling really good about where it's at right now.

U/b Masterworker

// Lands 24
4 [MR] Island
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures (22)
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [ARC] Master Transmuter
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [DDF] Faerie Mechanist
2 [CFX] Sphinx Summoner
1 [MR] Duplicant
1 [MR] Triskelion
1 [SOM] Myr Battlesphere
1 [DS] Sundering Titan

// Spells (14)
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [MR] Lightning Greaves
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [MR] Duplicant
SB: 1 [MR] Triskelion
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 1 [MBS] Blightsteel Colossus
SB: 1 [EVE] Scarecrone
SB: 2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [MBS] Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 [NPH] Spellskite

I have yet to try out the Show and Tell sideboard plan that I mentioned before. I'm still not sure if that would actually improve my bad matchups (specifically the B/G/x decks).

Anyway, you'll notice some pretty significant changes.

The Forgemaster's were awful most of the time. The only time they were ever really good was against non-interactive decks like combo. The card disadvantage usually sucks, and he's very slow as an enabler since he costs 5 mana. So those got cut.

Staff of Domination was not very good. It's gg with a Metalworker, but it's a mediocre draw otherwise. So that got cut.

I almost never grabbbed the Blightsteel Colossus, unless I was playing against a non-interactive deck like combo, so I moved that to the sideboard.

Those cuts gave me 4 slots, so I decided to fit in a playset of Lodestone Golems. They don't stack with Trinisphere, but they give me additional asymmetrical disruption against every single deck in the format, and with the 1/1 split of Duplicant/Trikselion (with 2 Sphinx to tutor for them and Master Transmuter to reuse them), swinging through the ground with Golems is much easier than it was in my original builds. I also have an additional 1/1 split in the sideboard that I bring in vs aggro matchups, and an additional 2 Spines too for the matchups where I need to deal with noncreature permanents.

The Lodestones improve my curve, and they give me increased consistency in my backup plan (i.e stompy beats). So far they've been solid... not amazing, but solid.

With Lodestones in the maindeck now, and having already been wanting to find a way to fit in Wasteland, I cut the City of Traitors for Wastelands. City of Traitors were always hit or miss... yes, they increased my consistency of turn 1 Chalice/Trini/Worker, but a turn 1 City is also a very dangerous play. I've been happy without them to be honest, and Wasteland has been fantastic.

The list feels alot more streamlined now, and I continue to keep beating up on the majority of the DTB. I love playing this deck :)

[dillonkbase]

Mechanist and Summoner are really better than tezz AOB?






This manabase looks like it could be real good btw, I can see trading my monoliths for metalworkers, and I like the number of artifacts supporting both worker and opal.

[Hanni]

Mechanist and Summoner are really better than tezz AOB?

Yep. Mechanist is much easier to cast at 3U, and he's uncounterable with Cavern naming Artificer (which happens frequently). He's an artifact for Metalworker, and he's bounceable by Transmuter (which becomes a draw engine similar to Tezzeret's +1). He also happens to beat for 2 in the air, which is more relevant than people seem to think.

Sphinx tutors for any artifact creature, which is why my toolbox works. Like Mechanist, he also plays nice with Transmuter, and even independently, a 3/3 flyer that tutors for any creature in my deck (+1 CA) for 5 mana is really, really good. He's also castable off of Cavern naming Sphinx, so he's slightly easier to cast than Tezz (and potentially uncounterable).

Tezz being able to turn artifacts into 5/5's is nice, and his ability to dig 5 deep is also nice, and he was never "bad" when I playtested with him. Maybe I'll work on trying to fit 2 copies back into the deck again at some point. I rarely got much value out of his ultimate though (this deck doesn't spit out as many artifacts as Affinity does).

At any rate, I would not cut Mechanists or Summoner's to fit in Tezz. If I were to fit in 2 Tezz, I'd cut either the Trinispheres, the Lodestone Golems, or possibly even the Greaves... but definitely not the Mechanists/Summoners.

[bruizar]

Hanni, I'd try arcum dagsson over forgemaster. it's on color, doesn't have the built in card disadvantage of forgemaster, is only 4 mana instead of 5, is an artificer for cavern of souls, and allows you to lock up the game very quickly through mycosynth lattice or spine of Ish Sah / possessed portal.

I'd say you.d have to cut Mox diamonds but you probably won't agree with me. You'll find out sooner or later though :) i'd run petal over Mox diamond since you aren't running crucible or another way to offset the disadvantage of a Mox that doesn't net any extra mana.

[Greenpoe]

Hanni, is it really worth it to play without City of Traitors? Isn't City better than Vault of Whispers at least? I understand that you'd want to hit your land drops, but it's a stompy deck after all.

[Hanni]

Hanni, I'd try arcum dagsson over forgemaster. it's on color, doesn't have the built in card disadvantage of forgemaster, is only 4 mana instead of 5, is an artificer for cavern of souls, and allows you to lock up the game very quickly through mycosynth lattice or spine of Ish Sah / possessed portal./QUOTE]

I tried Arcum quite a bit in my very first lists, and to be honest, it wasn't very good. There are very few noncreature artifacts that are actually worth running, and even fewer that make Arcum worth running. Arcum is a nonartifact creature that requires me to sacrifice an artifact creature. Most of the time when I was sacrificing stuff to Foregmaster, it was excess Moxes/Artifact Lands/Trinispheres/Chalices/Greaves/etc. Sometimes I would need to sacrifice Foregmaster himself (Arcum can't even sac himself). The only artifact creature I'd even want to sacrifice to Arcum would be a Metalworker once my hand is depleted. I mean, yea I could sacrifice Mechanists, but still.

I don't understand why I would want Mycosynth Lattice without other cards to combo with it (since it does nothing by itself). Possessed Portal would require significant changes to make it work/break the symmetry (like Crucible of Worlds), and I'm not even interested in the effect (this is not a Stax deck). Spine of Ish Sah is a great card to be sure, but it alone is not worth running Arcum, and it's not a threat on its own.

For Arcum to be worth it, I'd need noncreature artifact "threat on its own" in the toolbox. Something like Akroma's Memorial would be a cool target, but it's not a threat on its own. The problem with most of the big-cost noncreature artifact bombs is that they also have an expensive activation cost. Batterskull is a good noncreature artifact, but it's not worth running Arcum for, when it only costs 1 mana more. Same goes for Phyrexian Processor and Myr Turbine. Mindslaver doesn't do much without Academy Ruins or Goblin Welder. Summoning Station and Myr Incubator are the best two that I've seen, which still don't seem worth it.

There are some decent expensive noncreature artifacts, like Scourglass and Staff of Nin, but meh. Gleemax would be really cool if it was tournament legal...

Anyway, I think a deck focused around Arcum could be fun. Something focused more on noncreature artifacts, possibly with something with Karn, Silver Golem or March of the Machines. He doesn't work well in my Transmuter list, though. I'd love to find a way to abuse Timesifter, and an Arcum list could be a way to do that.

[QUOTE]I'd say you.d have to cut Mox diamonds but you probably won't agree with me. You'll find out sooner or later though :) i'd run petal over Mox diamond since you aren't running crucible or another way to offset the disadvantage of a Mox that doesn't net any extra mana.

Yea, I definitely don't agree with you. Mox Diamond is pretty much essential to me for providing any color of mana and acceleration. While Diamond might cost a land, it taps for mana every turn, where Petal is only one-time accel. Mox Diamond lets me power out a turn 1 Chalice/Greaves into turn 2 Metalworker/Trinisphere (or sometimes even 4cc stuff), where Petal would not. I run 24 lands, so it's not like I don't get land flooded often enough to not care about discarding one to Mox Diamond (especially when I draw multiple Tombs).



Hanni, is it really worth it to play without City of Traitors? Isn't City better than Vault of Whispers at least? I understand that you'd want to hit your land drops, but it's a stompy deck after all.

Well, I do run 4 Ancient Tomb, 4 Mox Diamond, and 2 Mox Opal for acceleration, but maybe I should work on fitting 2 City of Traitors back into the deck. I definitely don't want more than 2, though.

I could cut Vaults, but I'd be worried about my black sources for Sphinx. Right now I'm at 10 black sources, with possibly 4 more via Cavern... cutting 2 Vaults drops me to 8 + 4, which seems a bit risky. I mean, many times I cheat the cost with Transmuter anyway, but I do hardcast Sphinx's quite often. I'll test with -2 Vault +2 City and see how it works, though.

---

On an unrelated note, I've been thinking about my recent changes with adding Lodestone Golem, and how that might affect the rest of the deck.

Trinisphere is fantastic against free spells (Daze/FoW), great against 1cc spells, but isn't any better against nonartifact 2cc spells, and doesn't stack with Lodestone.

On the other hand, Tangle Wire has fantastic synergy with Transmuter, and the effect is really good in combination with Lodestone. The effect is really good with Metalworker and Transmuter as well, since I can tap down my lands and still put stuff into play.

At any rate, I'm going to playtest with Tangle Wire and see if I like it better than Trinisphere.

The new developmental list:

U/b Masterwork MUD

// Lands (24)
4 [MR] Island (1)
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
2 [MR] Vault of Whispers
2 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures (22)
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [ARC] Master Transmuter
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [DDF] Faerie Mechanist
2 [CFX] Sphinx Summoner
1 [MR] Duplicant
1 [MR] Triskelion
1 [SOM] Myr Battlesphere
1 [DS] Sundering Titan

// Spells (14)
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [NE] Tangle Wire
2 [MR] Lightning Greaves
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [MR] Duplicant
SB: 1 [MR] Triskelion
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [MBS] Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 [NPH] Spellskite


EDIT: I'm not sure why I play against Hymn to Tourach in every other match I play on MWS, but its pretty rediculous. My only bad matchup, and I always seem to play against it on MWS without fail.
/smash face into keyboard

Anyway, Tangle Wire was good against the B/G deck I just played against.

In the game 2, it kept my opponent off of hitting me with Hymn and Sinkhole long enough for me to drop double Lodestone to lock him out of the game.

In game 3, it didn't help me, but there was nothing I would have been able to do anyway. Opponent opens with Shaman, I have land go, he goes turn 2 Wasteland + Confidant, swing with Shaman. I drop the Tangle Wire on turn 2 off of a Diamond, he proceeds to double Waste me, I have no lands left in hand and the top card wasn't a land either, so I scooped.

[bruizar]

[QUOTE]Hanni, I'd try arcum dagsson over forgemaster. it's on color, doesn't have the built in card disadvantage of forgemaster, is only 4 mana instead of 5, is an artificer for cavern of souls, and allows you to lock up the game very quickly through mycosynth lattice or spine of Ish Sah / possessed portal./QUOTE]

I tried Arcum quite a bit in my very first lists, and to be honest, it wasn't very good. There are very few noncreature artifacts that are actually worth running, and even fewer that make Arcum worth running. Arcum is a nonartifact creature that requires me to sacrifice an artifact creature. Most of the time when I was sacrificing stuff to Foregmaster, it was excess Moxes/Artifact Lands/Trinispheres/Chalices/Greaves/etc. Sometimes I would need to sacrifice Foregmaster himself (Arcum can't even sac himself). The only artifact creature I'd even want to sacrifice to Arcum would be a Metalworker once my hand is depleted. I mean, yea I could sacrifice Mechanists, but still.

I don't understand why I would want Mycosynth Lattice without other cards to combo with it (since it does nothing by itself). Possessed Portal would require significant changes to make it work/break the symmetry (like Crucible of Worlds), and I'm not even interested in the effect (this is not a Stax deck). Spine of Ish Sah is a great card to be sure, but it alone is not worth running Arcum, and it's not a threat on its own.

For Arcum to be worth it, I'd need noncreature artifact "threat on its own" in the toolbox. Something like Akroma's Memorial would be a cool target, but it's not a threat on its own. The problem with most of the big-cost noncreature artifact bombs is that they also have an expensive activation cost. Batterskull is a good noncreature artifact, but it's not worth running Arcum for, when it only costs 1 mana more. Same goes for Phyrexian Processor and Myr Turbine. Mindslaver doesn't do much without Academy Ruins or Goblin Welder. Summoning Station and Myr Incubator are the best two that I've seen, which still don't seem worth it.

There are some decent expensive noncreature artifacts, like Scourglass and Staff of Nin, but meh. Gleemax would be really cool if it was tournament legal...

Anyway, I think a deck focused around Arcum could be fun. Something focused more on noncreature artifacts, possibly with something with Karn, Silver Golem or March of the Machines. He doesn't work well in my Transmuter list, though. I'd love to find a way to abuse Timesifter, and an Arcum list could be a way to do that.
.

only responding to mycosynth lattice right now as I am in a hurry but:

When you change every permanent to an artifact, creatures become artifact creatures. Arcum Dagsson can target your opponent's artifact creatures and swap them for a non-creature artifact. This basically means that you can force a sacrifice with arcum, and that arcum can sack itself to get a trinket itself.

[Hanni]

only responding to mycosynth lattice right now as I am in a hurry but:

When you change every permanent to an artifact, creatures become artifact creatures. Arcum Dagsson can target your opponent's artifact creatures and swap them for a non-creature artifact. This basically means that you can force a sacrifice with arcum, and that arcum can sack itself to get a trinket itself.

I didn't notice that interaction, that's actually pretty cool. Maybe I'll tinker around with an Arcum list after all (although I still don't think it fits in the Transmuter version, but I could be wrong).

[bruizar]

I didn't notice that interaction, that's actually pretty cool. Maybe I'll tinker around with an Arcum list after all (although I still don't think it fits in the Transmuter version, but I could be wrong).

There are a few directions i would like to try with arcum:
1) UB Tezzeret - sack balefulstrix or solemn to activate arcum for the win.
2) affinity - as a backup win condition. 1 activation wins you the game.
3) UR control slaver - a port from vintage

The biggest problem is finding relevant cheap artifact creatures to sacrifice. The best ones are baleful strix, solemn simulacrum, pilgrims eye, phyreian revoker, butim still looking for some other cards. Perhaps Esper variant with duress-artifact dude.

Thopter foundry plays well with arcum

edit:
Just throwing this out there. Here is a rough framework of one of the setups I am working on for Arcum. It uses cheap artifact creatures with a disrupting effect (baleful strix, revoker, tidehollow sculler and thopter foundry) to supply a stream of sack outlets. The deck can win with Thopter/Sword, Tezzeret or Arcum lock. Arcum can also setup Thoptersword very easily.

4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Arcum Dagsson
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Tidehollow Strix
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

//3 slots dedicated to either of:
Mindslaver / Mycosynth Lattice / Possessed Portal / Spine of Ish-Sah / Darksteel Forge / Nevinirral's Disk / Contagion Engine

3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm


Esper Stormblade is another creature that I have considered. It's a Delver of Secrets for this deck but I don't like the vanillaness of the card.

[bruizar]

This really doesnt belong in this thread, but since this is my go-to artifact thread ill just post what inhave now. It still needs work but i cant wait to test it.

//equipment (2)
1 Civic Blade /*1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of the Meek

//removal and utility (19)
1 Vindicate
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Transmute Artifact
2 The Abyss
3 *Deathrite Shaman
4 Brainstorm
3 force of will

//Artifact Beats (17)
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
3 Esper Stormblade
2 Thopter Foundry

//planeswalkers (4)
4 Tezzeret Agent of Bolas
40..

3 Pillar of the Paruns
2 Polluted Delta
2 *Flooded Strand
2Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
21


Shardless agent into transmute artifact is really sweet. It gets you jitte or thoptersword or converts agent into a baleful strix if u need to defend. The abyss is really good if u only have artifact creatures ( except shamsn). Shamsn can be cast off pillar of the paruns like most cards in the deck.

Stormblade is a flipped delver all the time and tezz aob us the best planeswalker for this deck. The manabase needs practice/tweaks but im pretty sure pillar of the paruns is the right card for this deck.

[noobslayer]

Looking at Hanni's list kind of made me think in the other direction. Instead of tutoring for big stuff, you could cut black altogether, lower the curve bit, and go with a trinket mage package instead of the master transmuter combo. Just food for thought.

[mistercakes]

"Shardless agent into transmute artifact is really sweet."


How does this work? You do know that the transmute artifact resolves before the shardless agent is in play right?

[fogxanic]

"Shardless agent into transmute artifact is really sweet."


How does this work? You do know that the transmute artifact resolves before the shardless agent is in play right?

Doesn't work. You must have some artifact on battlefield for sacking transmute artifact. Shardless agent is still in stack. Btw. these last decks are defenetly not mud belongs to UB control topic or somewhere.

[bruizar]

Oh man.. Didnt know that. Wouldve been pretty awesome. I still think the density of artifacts warrants transmute. Also, shardless agent into esper stormblade turns it on immediately. Ill tweak the deck and make a separate thread for it.

[dillonkbase]

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Mishra's Factory
6 Mountain

4 Mox diamond
4 Grim monolith

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Tangle Wire
4 Magus of the moon
2 Koth the Hammer
2 Godo Bandit Warlord

2 Batterskull
1 Jitte
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Phrexian Metamorph

SB
2 Spine of Ish Sah (Sneak show) uw control?
3 Phyrexian Revoker (Storm, Bant, Mavrick, more if I think about it)
2 Cursed Totem (Mavrick, Bant)
2 Relic of Progenitus (dredge, gy based stuff)
1 Tormod's Crypt (storm,gy based stuff)
3 Silent Arbiter (tribes, Ichorid)
2 Impending Disaster (UW control, turbo eldrazi, lands)

So its been a little bit since my last update, overall my list has been preforming well, especially against the decks I have expected to see. The build has worked as expected against miracles, although impending disaster was not as great as I hoped, a bit of a win more. Silent arbiter has only disappointed me against affinity, which might just be the decks worst match up.

So some cards are on the bubble and here as some thoughts...

should the tanglewires be revokers? should the wires then be in the board?

How do I attack "fair" manabases better?

Do I need to do something to be better prepared for BUG?

[(nameless one)]

How do I attack "fair" manabases better?

Do I need to do something to be better prepared for BUG?

Tangle Wire should do the trick against fair manabases. Slow them enough then resolve your bombs.

As for BUG, take advantage of their greedy manabase. Denial with mana suppressor should slow them enough for you to resolve your bombs. Also, Trinisphere is okay against them (siding out Tangle Wire)

[bruizar]

I've been thinking about the Godo build, and started to compare it to imperial painter and dragon stompy. Like dilonkbase, I've started running moon effects (blood moon instead of magus of the moon).

Imperial Painter is very well positioned in the meta, and in my opinion, that is due to the moon effects and goblin welder. I was already running Moltensteel Dragon and in testing, it's been incredible with Blood Moon. Suddenly, firebreathing becomes so much more dangerous.

I am cutting Metalworker entirely due to the higher number of red cards which are:

3 Blood Moon
2 Moltensteel Dragon (red artifact)
2 Goblin Welder
2 Bonfire of the Damned
3 Godo, Bandit Warlord

The MUD mirror is nearly impossible to lose. I run 2 Shattering Sprees in the sideboard, and my 2 Goblin Welders make the match-up very unfair.

One of the more exciting games during my tests was when I was facing a board with Lightning Greaves into Metalworker into Kuldotha Forgemaster into Blightsteel Colossus. I chump with Batterskull and he passes the turn. I Shattering Spree the Lightning Greaves, resolve Karn and exile Blightsteel Colossus. After that I quickly win the game.

I am convinced that Blood Moon is very correct in the current meta. If you look at the BUG manabases, they run 4 wasteland, 10 fetch and a bunch of duals. Abrupt Decay is their only out and that costs 2 non-red mana. It's nearly impossible to lose when you resolve it because the fetchlands suddenly don't feed Deathrite Shaman anymore.

[Hanni]

Do I need to do something to be better prepared for BUG?

I've been doing alot of playtesting and tuning to try and figure out how to best improve this matchup. I started out using 2 Tangle Wire, which was solid... but I'm actually running 4 Thorn of Amethyst maindeck instead (now), which have been amazing. The difference between 2cc and 3cc is absolutely huge, particularly when it comes to resolving disruption on turns 1-2 instead of turns 2-3. Between Thorns, Lodestones, Wastelands, and the occasional Sundering blowout, the taxing angle has been working very well for me against most decks.

The Thorns are mostly dead against Goblins, and only mediocre against something like Maverick, but I've been happy with them against everything else. In my most current build, they are almost completely 1-sided, too.

[Alex Holland]

I am cutting Metalworker entirely due to the higher number of red cards which are:.

but metalworker loves bonfire very much, it sweeps the board and gives a punch to your opponent. Very controlish. Plus i feel it makes karn liberated easier to drop, wich i also like because of the control kill anything option.

[bruizar]

but metalworker loves bonfire very much, it sweeps the board and gives a punch to your opponent. Very controlish. Plus i feel it makes karn liberated easier to drop, wich i also like because of the control kill anything option.

This is true, though i feel it is not necessary. I still frequently generate bonfires of up to 6 without miracle nor metalworkers which should be enough to kill everything. What i like about thran dynamo is its immunity to abrupt decay and creature removal. That said, I think metalworker is still viable and it definitely helps to get Karn or Godo out quickly. Another thing I'm considering is to reduce the number of cavern of souls, but this depends largely on my mix of magus of the moon versus blood moon. With magus, cavern on humans will ensure Godo and magus resolves, but I really dislike the fact that miracles runs a lot of basics (plowshares), and rug has bolts to deal with magus. Cavern of souls sometimes screws with my bonfires and my blood moons, so basic mountains seem better to me.

[bruizar]

Here's my current build:

//Maindeck 37

2 Goblin Welder
2 Bonfire of the Damned
3 Blood Moon
3 Godo, Bandit Warlord
3 Batterskull
2 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Duplicant
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Sword of Fire and Ice / Sword of War and Peace
1 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Karn Liberated
//LANDS 23
10 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Mouth of Ronom
4 Cavern of Souls / Mountain / Utility
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
---
//SB - Depends on meta, but a selection of:
2 Magus of the Moon (BUG/Lands/RUG Delver)
2 Sulfur Elemental (Maverick, Lingering Souls, jace/elspeth/liliana but only when combined with lingering souls)
4 Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast (SnT/Miracle Control/Spiral Tide/Stoneblade/Esperblade)
2 Shattering Spree (affinity / mirror)
2 Bonfire of the Damned (elves, maverick, d&t, other aggro oriented matchups)
3 Thorn of Amethyst (Spiral Tide/Tendrils variants)
3 Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus (Dredge/Relic against KotR/Mongoose/Deadrite Shaman/Tarmogoyf)
1 Grafdigger's Cage (Zombardment/Dredge/Snapcaster Mage/NicFit&Maverick GSZ/)
2 Phyrexian Revoker (Walkers such as Jace, Sensei's Divining Top, Pernicious Deed)

Greaves is back in because it protects against spot removal and it helps speed the clock up. I often Drop a batterskull first, and a Godo second, fetching Lightning Greaves and attacking with batterskull twice. Duplicant and Phyrexian Metamorph are both Shapeshifters for Cavern of Souls.

EDIT:
I'm also considering Rimescale Dragon as a one-off. Rimescale Dragon can completely take over aggro matchups, and it can drop via SNT and tap Emrakul indefinitely. Problem is, 7 mana prone to Plowshares.

EDIT 2:
I tried Conch Horn, and I didn't like it.

[bruizar]

I am currently testing +1 Unstable Frontier -1 Cavern of Souls. This is to fix mana, save city of traitors from self-destructing and to dodge wasteland. If I would play more of these, I might even be able to get away with sideboarding a Snuff Out or Submerge or Reverent Silence (enchantment hate is absent in red) since I can now meet the condition.

http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Conflux/Unstable_Frontier.jpg

Alas, doesnt work against wasteland. Works to save city of traitors but thats not enough.

Perhaps karakas, tower of the magistrate ir dustbowl

[Cross Game]

Hello, hello,

I've followed this thread for a while now, first time posting in it, as well as on the source. Played at my LGS's monthly Legacy event and wound up 4-0'ing. It was a small field of sixteen or so of us, a mix of people both new to the format and well experienced. I'd played the deck in two previous events and tweaked it a little bit each time until I arrived at this list:

Maindeck:

4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo
3 Metalworker
3 Voltaic Key

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Trinisphere
3 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Batterskull

3 Staff of Nin
1 Karn Liberated

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Crystal Vein
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Mutavault
3 Rishadan Port

Sideboard:

2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Precursor Golem
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Batterskull
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Myr Battlesphere
2 Trinisphere
1 Oblivion Stone

Round 1:
Dredge, 2-1 - Magically won game one, this was mostly due to the dredge player's inexperience with dredge. Game 2 dredge does what it does, and in game 3 my sideboard plan, plus robots did the job. In this matchup I overload on sphere effects, deprive the mana base of the dredge player, and bring in Precursor Golem to get blockers online early. I was also able to use the old animate your factory, and then waste it to exile a bridge which was handy. Pretty sure I need dedicated hate in this match up though.

Round 2:
Merfolk, 2-0 - Pretty straightforward here, the miser's cavern of souls did a lot of work, and the threat quality is just very good. I was particularly impressed with voltaic key in tandem with Staff of Nin, and Mishra's Workshop/Mutavault. Pumping your mutavault, untapping factory then pumping vault again (while it has the bonus from Lord of Atlantis) is pretty great. Steel Hellkite is also a beating to the merfolk player here.

Round 3:
BUG Tempo (Shardless Agent Variety), 2-0 - Staff of Nin with Voltaic Key again! Hell on wheels for Deathrite Shamans, and Planeswalkers. Incidently Deathrite Shaman, and Planeswalkers are great targets for Phyrexian Revoker. Too many threats for the BUG deck to handle, additionally, most of my opponent's removal was in the form of Pern Deed, Abrupt Decay, Jace TMS, or Liliana, all of which are rough against 6 Mana plus threats backed by Revoker.

Round 4:
RUG Delver, 2-1 - Game one he scoops to a Turn 2 Chalice on 1, I lose game three with a very threat light hand (loose keep), then in Game three the combination of Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, and Lodestone + Wasteland lock him out entirely.

All in all a deck I really enjoy playing.

Staff of Nin is definitely Staff of Win, and Crystal Vein is much better than it seems. I'd find myself pretty much always wanting to see some kind of Sol Land in my first two turns. Although it's not ideal, Crsytal Vein helps ensure you can run a Monolith out Turn 1, or Golem Turn 2 is or Metalworker Turn 2, Chalice Turn 1, Spheres, etc. all early and on time.

I'd been finding Buried Ruin not so useful, and slow. So I replaced them with Veins and the Cavern of Souls. Ports while good, I didn't want to see every game, so I trimmed one for the Mutavault.

[bruizar]

If liliana is going to continue to be a ubiquitous card in the meta, i will probably sideboard wurmcoil engine again, in order to blank the -2 of liliana. I already run 2 goblin welders so the +1 is not going to do much.

[noobslayer]

How were Wurmcoils for you Cross Game? I love the overall look of the thing for the Mono Brown list.

[Zirath]

Grats on the finish with the Stompy list. I'm glad to see people still playing it (I'm actually thinking of pulling it out of the box soon again for the Edison SCG). Buried Ruin is very good against the other midrange decks (Stoneblade and Maverick primarily but any deck with permission and a slow clock is fine). I used to run Vein but I found it was a liability. Buried Ruin is actually one of my most powerful cards and only against RUG did I find it too weak. You should play in bigger events to make changes. Small metagames usually give bad indications because the metagame is degenerate (everyone know what each other is playing).

How is Sphere of Resistance? I had considered it many times but I thought it would be too punishing. I assume it is for the Delver match ups. I have always found Thorn to be good but considered Sphere as well.

I noticed you cut all the All is Dust. Was it not good enough?

You should play the 4th Revoker. It is one of the most powerful cards in the deck still.

[Cross Game]

@noobslayer - I've found Wurmcoil to be quite excellent. Foremost it's resistance to Liliana is great, and find that lifelink is often hugely relevant in racing, and offsetting the effects of Ancient Tomb. The main detraction is that it costs 6 which can be an awkward number for this deck. Also, it fails the Jace test, but basically everything does in this deck anyway.


Grats on the finish with the Stompy list. I'm glad to see people still playing it (I'm actually thinking of pulling it out of the box soon again for the Edison SCG). Buried Ruin is very good against the other midrange decks (Stoneblade and Maverick primarily but any deck with permission and a slow clock is fine). I used to run Vein but I found it was a liability. Buried Ruin is actually one of my most powerful cards and only against RUG did I find it too weak. You should play in bigger events to make changes. Small metagames usually give bad indications because the metagame is degenerate (everyone know what each other is playing).

How is Sphere of Resistance? I had considered it many times but I thought it would be too punishing. I assume it is for the Delver match ups. I have always found Thorn to be good but considered Sphere as well.

I noticed you cut all the All is Dust. Was it not good enough?

You should play the 4th Revoker. It is one of the most powerful cards in the deck still.

Thanks! The previous events at my LGS have had significantly greater attendance, but one of the more interesting things is how frequently many of the attendees change the decks they play monthly. It's more likely that folks will know that someone leans toward combo, or loves playing islands, but less of an idea what they're actually running. Although I've run this list now three months in a row, most folks still have no idea what I'm playing when I sit down across from them, even when I lead with a voltaic key. I definitely look forward to the opportunity to play in a larger event.

I'm totally open to including buried ruin again, somehow, I've managed to dodge the Maverick matchup every time so I have no experience there.

Sphere has been excellent for me. In the delver matchups it certainly shines, but it's great against burn, and especially miracles. BUG decks also have a very hard time dealing with it. When I bring in the spheres I side out chalices usually (depending on if it's RUG i'm playing) and a some of the 6cc spells , which reduces the impact of the taxing effect. Generally speaking though, I don't find it too punishing since the deck can go incredibly over the top with mana generation, and the opposing deck can't handle only being able to play one spell a turn, and usually one of low impact compared to those I'm casting.

With All is Dust, the honest truth is I didn't have them! So I haven't tried them out yet, although, in some of the matchups I might imagine I'd want them, it strikes me as a little slow. Out of curiosity, have you ever used them in an enchantress matchup? Seems like a great way to get problematic enchantments off the board.

Definitely considering playing the 4th Revoker, that card is a champ!

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I'm interested in trying this archetype out, especially since it seems like a combo hating version of Nic Fit (which is good for me, amazing even).

My list is probably all over the place, so I'm all ears.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
3 Crystal Vein
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Buried Ruin

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster

1 Staff of Domination
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Lightning Greaves

2 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Crucible of Worlds

[dillonkbase]

I'm interested in trying this archetype out, especially since it seems like a combo hating version of Nic Fit (which is good for me, amazing even).

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
3 Crystal Vein
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Buried Ruin

3 Crucible of Worlds

I think if you are playing 3 crucible you should definitely be playing mox diamond, wasteland, and city of traitors. I'd try to keep a man land or two, but I think you could pass of the ruin's and veins for sure.




As for Liliana, I've found godo for batterskull a great out for that situation.




Has anyone tested price of glory in godo mud? http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=29973&type=card

[kingtk3]

I'm interested in trying this archetype out, especially since it seems like a combo hating version of Nic Fit (which is good for me, amazing even).

My list is probably all over the place, so I'm all ears.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
3 Crystal Vein
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Buried Ruin

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster

1 Staff of Domination
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Lightning Greaves

2 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Crucible of Worlds

Also I don't like cloudpost, since it comes into play tapped and doesn't accellerate into turn 1 Chalice/sphere or turn 2 Trinisphere: this deck doesn't need the massive amount of mana needed to play eldrazi, but wants to hit 2-3 mana on the first 2 turns ever. So I think I'll switch cloudpost for city of traitors and vesuva for wasteland which is insane with trini/lodestone/sphere (moreover if you keep 3 crucible maindeck).
On the other note i think your list is quite threat-lite: basically you win only with kuldotha into blightsteel or kuldotha into staff with metalworker in play; lodestone is an heavy beater only if the opponent doesn't have creatures, otherwise you'll find yourself pretty often not attacking being afraid to trade and to loose the taxing effect.

I think that MUD basically has three forms (although there are variants): combo (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=687380&viewfull=1#post687380), stompy (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=677433&viewfull=1#post677433) and prison.
Summarizing in a phrase
Combo: you want to cheat into play a big robot that seals the game in 1 or 2 attacks.
Stompy: you want to play mid range threats during the early game while delaying opponent's early game to the mid game.
Prison: you want to lock the board so that your opponent can't do anything while you wait for your finisher

Your list seems an hybrid between Combo and Prison, but the problem I see is that you don't have an hardlock (like recurring tangle wire or smokestack+trinisphere) nor a way to deal with permanents (aside of disk which can be devastating for you since you only play permanents) and you can't afford to ignore opposing creatures because you only have the colossus able to do so.

Hope this may help ;)


EDIT:
the links don't refer to decklists but to posts about the philosophy (the one I think of) of the deck.

[Zirath]

I'm totally open to including buried ruin again, somehow, I've managed to dodge the Maverick matchup every time so I have no experience there.

Sphere has been excellent for me. In the delver matchups it certainly shines, but it's great against burn, and especially miracles. BUG decks also have a very hard time dealing with it. When I bring in the spheres I side out chalices usually (depending on if it's RUG i'm playing) and a some of the 6cc spells , which reduces the impact of the taxing effect. Generally speaking though, I don't find it too punishing since the deck can go incredibly over the top with mana generation, and the opposing deck can't handle only being able to play one spell a turn, and usually one of low impact compared to those I'm casting.

With All is Dust, the honest truth is I didn't have them! So I haven't tried them out yet, although, in some of the matchups I might imagine I'd want them, it strikes me as a little slow. Out of curiosity, have you ever used them in an enchantress matchup? Seems like a great way to get problematic enchantments off the board.

Definitely considering playing the 4th Revoker, that card is a champ!

If you don't need em don't play em. As I said, Buried Ruin is best against slower decks. It is useless against combo and the fast aggro most of the time. You might have a situation where your opponent stumbles and you can take advantage of an early counterspell or removal spell but usually this is not the case if you don't already have them locked out.

That is good to hear about Sphere. I've wanted to play them for a while now so I think I will put them in my board since Thorn has always not been good enough against RUG.

I rarely have problems with Dust. It tends to be a fairly versatile and reliable spell; granted I only run 1 maindeck and 1 in the board right now. And yes, I have cast it against Enchantress. It's glorious.

[fogxanic]

Anybody saw Goblin Scrapper? http://www.mtgsalvation.com/gatecrash-spoiler.html#6716 Maybe nice tech for some Blood Moon MUD but not very good with Magus if opponent has blocker.

[(nameless one)]

I'm interested in trying this archetype out, especially since it seems like a combo hating version of Nic Fit (which is good for me, amazing even).

My list is probably all over the place, so I'm all ears.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
3 Crystal Vein
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Buried Ruin

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster

1 Staff of Domination
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Lightning Greaves

2 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Crucible of Worlds

If you want to load up on resistors (spheres), I would suggest running more than four man-lands. Possibly Mutavault (just like Vintage's Terra Nova lists).

Also with your list, I would switch Crystal Veins with Deserted Temple

[EpicLevelCommoner]

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
3 Deserted Temple
4 Rishadan Port

4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith
4 Icy Manipulator
3 Voltaic Key

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance

3 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Karn, Silver Golem

3 All is Dust

Lots of Redundancy in terms of Ramp and Denial of Resources with Manlands and Karnifacts as win cons. How does this look now?

[(nameless one)]

The reason why you want to add Deserted Temple is because you want to abuse Cloudposts. Without them, you don't really need Deserted Temple.

Now with that list, I'd go back with Wasteland and Crucible of Worlds.

[kingtk3]

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
3 Deserted Temple
4 Rishadan Port

4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith
4 Icy Manipulator
3 Voltaic Key

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance

3 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Karn, Silver Golem

3 All is Dust

Lots of Redundancy in terms of Ramp and Denial of Resources with Manlands and Karnifacts as win cons. How does this look now?

I second (nameless one) on the waste + crucible, and I would also love to see smokestack in here (synergy with crucible and can make use of extra crucible/trinisphere). I think I'd go for
-3 all is dust
-3 basalth monolith
-4 icy manipulator
-3 voltaic key (without the basalth is good only with grim monolith and conflicts with chalice @1 which is almost ever your best and first play)
-3 deserted temple
+4 smokestack
+3 crucible of worlds
+4 wasteland
+3 mox diamond (good with crucible and to accelerate a turn 1 lock piece)
+1 city of traitors
+1 karn/lodestone

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Ok . . . Just found some sweet Stax tech with Crucible out.

Glimmerpost looping should shutdown aggro right? Especially combined with stax tech?

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Glimmerpost
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Vesuva
3 Mox Diamond
4 Grim Monolith

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Karn, Silver Golem

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack

Essentially play prison until I can set Stax to 1, eat my prison effects as well as any board posisition they might have, then beatdown! Or, if I can't exactly go straight for eating my prison effects, then GlimmerStax loop will set me ahead in life totals.

[kingtk3]

An engine of Glimmerpost-Vesuva-Crucible of worlds-Smokestack is intriguing: while kind of slow to setup may have its merits. Can you do some test and share the results with us?

My concerns are that crucible and trini are useless in multiples and can lead to awkward hands. Also, you basically have no outs to first turn delver on the draw.

EDIT: ... unless you get the Glimmerposts going obviously ;)

[(nameless one)]

I know this discussion is going cyclical but with Glimmerpost and Vesuva, Cloudpost is a fit right?

It ramps you up. I don't see any problems with that.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I need to build the deck first :tongue: been working on Nic Fit and MUD seemed like a good analog to that archetype. Though as soon as I get the Tabby for it, I can start on MUD.

Speaking of Delver, what are MUDs matchups like?

EDIT: I see a few problems with CP but it might fit in over City (don"t feel that card fits right in a prison shell)

[kingtk3]

@(nameless one): with a curve that tops at 5 I don't feel that cloudpost is necessary in EpicLevelCommoner's shell, especially since in a prison shell you need acceleration and the loculi come in to play tapped. It might find home in a big robot build (similar to the eldrazi ramp deck) less centered on prison elements, where the ramp is more needed. Some food for thoughts? ;)

@EpicLevelCommoner: it depends. I prefer the stompy version and this is my latest list (though is some month old)

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
4 cavern of souls
3 mountain

2 mox diamond
4 grim monolith
3 metalworker
3 thran dynamo

4 chalice of the void
3 trinisphere
3 phyrexian metamorph
4 lodestone golem
2 razormane masticore
2 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice
3 godo, bandit warlord
1 wurmcoil engine
2 steel hellkite

SIDE
3 phyrexian revoker
2 duplicant
2 cursed totem
2 karn liberated
1 sword of light and shadow
2 tormod's crypt
2 grafdigger's cage
1 trinisphere

I can shoot delver with razormane or equipped sword, I can even block it with hellikte, but most of the time I ignore it and try to be faster which, with all the acceleration and life gain, is quite possible: this deck can make a turn 2 wurmcoil or batterskull or, even better, uncounterable godo into batterskull. Those are certanly very good hands, but even a turn 2 lodestone can make it there if backupped by trinisphere or chalice.

[(nameless one)]

I need to build the deck first :tongue: been working on Nic Fit and MUD seemed like a good analog to that archetype. Though as soon as I get the Tabby for it, I can start on MUD.

Speaking of Delver, what are MUDs matchups like?

EDIT: I see a few problems with CP but it might fit in over City (don"t feel that card fits right in a prison shell)

Against U/R Delver, once you get Chalice at one + other resistors going, they're gonna have a hard time.

Against Canadian Thresh (RUG), the same thing. This deck usually sides in Ancient Grudge so do not overextend.

Against Team America (BUG), it's tricky since they have Abrupt Decay. I would usually fast aggro against this deck instead if playing conservatively.

Don't be afraid to use your Wastelands to slow them down.

A resolved Wurmcoil Engine will give these decks a hard time. While Batterskull is also good against the first two.


EDIT:
I wonder if the person in the feature match (9-3) record posts here.

[kingtk3]

Don't ask me why but I thought EpicLevelCommoner mean how to fare a turn 1 delver... O_o

I agree with (nameless_one), more in general you win if you limit the Delver player to 0 or 1 spell per turn: those decks play cheap spells to manipulate the library and create strong board presence while countering the opponent's spells. If they can't do both their strategy falls apart, so your best friends are trinisphere and chalice

[dillonkbase]

On the cloudpost/glimerpost list I think if your headed that dirrection, even if the spells are a little different you should check out the turbo eldrazi thread. Their mana base it set up similarly, but they add crop rotation (and candelabra) and do not play crucible. Rotation into glimerpost, tabernacle, and bajuka? bog seems pretty cool and anhiliator is probably better than stax.

[dillonkbase]

Any thoughts on the use of the grove/fires combo in the SB of Godo MUD, particularly against decks you are sideboarding magus of the moon out against.

[kingofethanol]

Didn't know the Godo build was gaining so much steam.

Punishing Fires doesn't seem to fit well. Playing Metalworker is like playing Force, you need a critical mass of artifacts and blue spells respectively to make them optimal. The point of playing the most explosive mana dork in the game is so you can out class your opponents creatures and completely bypass removal. Playing Grove also means 4x less of a land you care about more, whether it be Port, Cavern, or even your basic Mountain.

I played a few games against BUG and in the few games I played it looks all right for us. Its disruption package is nothing compared to the RUG counterpart. Chalice does less in this match up as it doesn't blank the removal we care about, but this makes Greaves a better card. The only thing we fear is Hymn, but that is the "dies to StP" argument in deck form. In game two Chalices come out and Spellskites come in.

For those rocking the "mono" brown version, I have felt very good about 3-4 Thirst for Knowledge/Thoughtcast. Not only does it feed Metalworker by replacing itself with artifacts it also lets us see two to three turns worth of cards, which is huge. I have kept greedy hands of Mox Diamond+City into Trinisphere and dug myself out with a ToK on the following turn.

[bruizar]

Didn't know the Godo build was gaining so much steam.

Punishing Fires doesn't seem to fit well. Playing Metalworker is like playing Force, you need a critical mass of artifacts and blue spells respectively to make them optimal. The point of playing the most explosive mana dork in the game is so you can out class your opponents creatures and completely bypass removal. Playing Grove also means 4x less of a land you care about more, whether it be Port, Cavern, or even your basic Mountain.

I played a few games against BUG and in the few games I played it looks all right for us. Its disruption package is nothing compared to the RUG counterpart. Chalice does less in this match up as it doesn't blank the removal we care about, but this makes Greaves a better card. The only thing we fear is Hymn, but that is the "dies to StP" argument in deck form. In game two Chalices come out and Spellskites come in.

For those rocking the "mono" brown version, I have felt very good about 3-4 Thirst for Knowledge/Thoughtcast. Not only does it feed Metalworker by replacing itself with artifacts it also lets us see two to three turns worth of cards, which is huge. I have kept greedy hands of Mox Diamond+City into Trinisphere and dug myself out with a ToK on the following turn.

To be honest, I'm not running Metalworker at the moment in my Godo build. The reason for this is because keepable hands have a clear strategy. If not, I mulligan. If that strategy involves resolving and tapping Metalworker, that means I have a good shot at losing the game if Metalworker is answered. The problem is, Metalworker is very easy to answer in a format with force of will, swords to plowshares, lightning bolt and abrupt decay. There is just too much hate for me to want to run Metalworker. Thran Dynamo is much more resilient. I'm not saying Thran Dynamo is better, but it reduces the all-or-nothing style of the deck, which suits me better.

As for Punishing Fires + Groves of the Burnwillows, you could use that. You might even want to consider running Sylvan Library, taiga and some fetch lands if you do. It would also give you access to Ancient Grudge which can help shore up the affinity match-up.

I'm personally contemplating whether or not to try out an R/W version so I can run Rest in Peace and some other white sideboard cards (and/or Thalia & Stoneforge Mystic), but I'm not sure if I want to do that yet.

[(nameless one)]

I think one of the flaws of piloting this deck is relying on Metalworker to win.

Metalworker shouldn't be needed to win a game. That said I think it's also not ideal not to run Metalworker. Metalworker wins games.

I think the balance the deck should tackle is that the deck should be able to abuse Metalworker when you have it and not to lose the game when it gets removed. The way I see it, Metalworker is to MUD as Goblin Lackey/Lord of Altantis/Mother of Runes/Heritage Druid to their respective decks. They will win you games if your opponent doesn't deal with them.

[bruizar]

Hall of the bandit lord fixes the problemnbut it costs a lot ofmlife.


Edit: im intrigued by the splash for punishing fires. kessig wolf run and sylvan library can be very strong for this deck.

[noobslayer]

There were some mono brown lists using Hall of the Bandit lord, and had Platinum Emperion to stem the life loss and shore up certain match ups. In conjunction with Cavern you can get a lot of power out of your plays.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

What are matchups like in general between combo aggro and control?

[kingtk3]

What are matchups like in general between combo aggro and control?

Based on my stompy-prison build:

Combo

Storm decks: we have plenty of disruption, but you have play a turn 1 or 2 lock piece, otherwise you have to mull. Trinisphere is quite brutal. ANT and TES can win on turn 1 though, so there's a chance that you'll never get a turn to play. Board in some rachet bomb for the goblin tokens since it's sure the opponent will try to go fast in order to avoid our disruption and the EtW route is the fastest to play. In my opinion a very good matchup.

Show and Tell: this combo is less susciptable to our disruption because the card itself dodges both trinisphere and chalice. Those decks, however, rely on heavy cantripping in order to assemble the combo (which may be 2 or 3 cards), so an early trini or chalice@1 can slow or stop their search engine, giving us time to finish with robots. Post side spine of ish-sash guaranties that show and tell doesn't give our opponent an advantage. Good matchup.

other combo: depends on the specific, but in general combo decks are full of low casting cost can we can capitalize on with our disruption, so the matchups are good in general.


Control

U based control decks: the printing of cavern of souls has been a huge improvement, since we can now play our bombs without fear of counterspells. Due to brainstorm/swords reliance this matchup is favorable thanks to cavern, godo and chalice. Post side karn liberated and eventually ratchet bomb (for angel or spirit tokens) can easily dominate the board. Favorable matchup.

B based control decks: whether they are hand disruption+ramp (nic fit) or hand disruption+land destruction (pox) these decks are bad news. Particularly nic fit also has artifact destruction main deck (pulses, abrupt decays and deeds). Negative matchup.

Maverick: though not a control deck, I put this here because their plan against us is to play the control part (remove our treats via swords or qasali, then win at their pace). This is a grind matchup, but if you manage to resolve a karn you're in great shape. Even.


Aggro & Tempo

Burn (R or UR): chalice@1 basically counters their whole deck, plus trini, lodestone or batterskull: you basically have to be carefull to price of progress, otherwise this matchup is very good.

RUG: they play only 18 lands, all non basics. Trinisphere + wasteland can lock out of the game and chalice @1 shuts their whole deck save for 8 cards. Cavern of souls is the tits when thei can't say "No" to your golem. Beware of ancient grudge post side because that card is very stong against us. Good matchup.

Merfolk: they play vials, but we have batterskull, hellkite, razormane, wurmcoil... we can handle that. Good matchup.


Decks I need to play more against: jund (i suspect it would be even at best...), BUG (i think the lesser discard they play, the better is for us), goblin.

So, why not playing this deck if it has so many favorable matchup? Because the worst matchup is the deck itself. We don't have deck manipulation or card advantage, we are full of expensive spells, we cannot control the stack and we lack in removal: this means that you have to carefully understand when to mulligan (first thing EVER), and you have to foresee the gamestate three turns in advance in order to understand if an hand is keepable or not. In some sense this deck is like a combo: you have to foresee if you can achieve board supremacy (instead of winning like for a combo) in the first 3 turns, otherwise you're dead most of the times.

[noobslayer]

I'm having trouble deciding which build right now is the stronger of the two. I'm still testing my own build with blue, and it's had a lot of interesting merits, but just not the overall "umph" I get with the other two.

GodoFires is truly explosive, and also nets access to the moon effects, and it's two bombs are quite game changing. It's mana base feels less stable overall, but it can throw in a lot of hurt.

Mono Brown Forgeless is more stable overall, and can grind games longer I feel. It's got less mana issues and more utility, but I feel it doesn't get to the throat as violently.

[dillonkbase]

I'm having trouble deciding which build right now is the stronger of the two. I'm still testing my own build with blue, and it's had a lot of interesting merits, but just not the overall "umph" I get with the other two.

GodoFires is truly explosive, and also nets access to the moon effects, and it's two bombs are quite game changing. It's mana base feels less stable overall, but it can throw in a lot of hurt.

Mono Brown Forgeless is more stable overall, and can grind games longer I feel. It's got less mana issues and more utility, but I feel it doesn't get to the throat as violently.

I haven't played the monobrown list for some time, however, I have found Godo to be quite consistent when the curve and mana base is respected.

[fogxanic]

I put in some Razormane Masticores (answer for delver/confidant, I lose most of the games when 1 of them is onboard). Next week I have minor tournament for testing Ill post results then. Current list:


Lands: 21

4x Ancient Tomb
3x Cavern of Souls
3x City of Traitors
2x Darksteel Citadel
1x Karakas
2x Mishra's Factory
2x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

Creatures: 20

1x Duplicant
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Razormane Masticore
2x Spellskite
1x Steel Hellkite
3x Wurmcoil Engine

Spells: 19

3x Batterskull
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
2x Karn Liberated
2x Mox Diamond
2x Staff of Nin
2x Thran Dynamo

Side: 15

1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Spellskite
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Trinisphere

[Bionitech]

I have had the pleasure of running a list starring Goblin Welder, Forgemaster and Metalworker to handle my local meta. I've gotten more than familiar with the deck's inconsistency but I just can't not play it. I love it too much.

At least I'd be running enough utility to handle some of the hand-hate and counterspells, because previously the deck relied too much on metalworker alone and it would often times backfire on me.

I've paid close attention to the Godo Stompy build, and it doesn't feel like a MUD list to me without the all-star (Metalworker).

Anyone consider mixing a bit of this or that with Affinity? They're as apples and oranges as it gets but I can't help but think that it'd be interesting to find something that'd make a hybrid.

[Greenpoe]

If you want to hybridize MUD + Affinity, I'd say start with Steel Stompy ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20016-DECK-Steel-Stompy ) as a base. It was a strong deck with lots of good finishes, but seemed to drop out after the Mental Misstep era.

[Bionitech]

But does it solve the consistency issue? I've looked through the thread it looks like it has similar issues as MUD, except it doesn't rely on Metalworker and doesn't play like an All In deck.

[Bionitech]

UPDATE: Wondering if anyone tried the welder/forgemaster build in the same list and have Mindslaver (http://magiccards.info/som/en/176.html) for the sideboard or mainboard. I never tried it but I do plan to test a mind-slaver lock especially against the slower control decks or even combo decks that LOVE using Ancient Tomb.

[SaintS]

Hello everyone. I'm interested in the list and i would like to build it. There is only one question i have, im sorry if you already spoke about it.
I've heared that there have been a mud list packing the 12 post mana base, or something really near of it. Does someone have the decklist? What does that version have or dont have in comparison with this one?


Thanks a lot

[noobslayer]

Hello everyone. I'm interested in the list and i would like to build it. There is only one question i have, im sorry if you already spoke about it.
I've heared that there have been a mud list packing the 12 post mana base, or something really near of it. Does someone have the decklist? What does that version have or dont have in comparison with this one?


Thanks a lot

I don't believe anyone put up a rough list of it yet, it's still an idea being tossed around. It does require an almost entire re-working of your mana base just for some acceleration, so the merits have yet to be tested.

[SirTylerGalt]

Here is a list with the 12post lands that made top16 at SCG Denver a few months ago:

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8971&iddeck=65544

[SaintS]

Here is a list with the 12post lands that made top16 at SCG Denver a few months ago:

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8971&iddeck=65544

thanks a lot!
I'm just "sad" we lose Tezz, I like that card so much!

have other person tried such a list and can post it?

[Cipher]

Bottled Cloister is good against BGx, here, right?

[Alex Holland]

How would the godo build do with not 1 not 2 not 3 but 4 freakin' bonfire of the damned and some chandra the firebrand (to make them miracle ALL the time!!!)? Could be interesting.. al 'their' critters would die horribly like all day :) someone ever tought of this?

4x Batterskull Artifact
4x Chalice of the Void Artifact
4x Grim Monolith Artifact
1x Sword of Fire and Ice Artifact
3x Thran Dynamo Artifact

3x Metalworker Creature
3x Godo, Bandit Warlord Creature
4x Magus of the Moon Creature
2x Phyrexian Metamorph Creature

2x Blood Moon Enchantment

4x Ancient Tomb Land
4x Cavern of Souls Land
4x City of Traitors Land
4x Great Furnace Land
4x Mountain(A) Land

3x Karn Liberated Planeswalker
3x Chandra, the Firebrand Planeswalker

4x Bonfire of the Damned Sorcery

[noobslayer]

How would the godo build do with not 1 not 2 not 3 but 4 freakin' bonfire of the damned and some chandra the firebrand (to make them miracle ALL the time!!!)? Could be interesting.. al 'their' critters would die horribly like all day :) someone ever tought of this?

4x Batterskull Artifact
4x Chalice of the Void Artifact
4x Grim Monolith Artifact
1x Sword of Fire and Ice Artifact
3x Thran Dynamo Artifact

3x Metalworker Creature
3x Godo, Bandit Warlord Creature
4x Magus of the Moon Creature
2x Phyrexian Metamorph Creature

2x Blood Moon Enchantment

4x Ancient Tomb Land
4x Cavern of Souls Land
4x City of Traitors Land
4x Great Furnace Land
4x Mountain(A) Land

3x Karn Liberated Planeswalker
3x Chandra, the Firebrand Planeswalker

4x Bonfire of the Damned Sorcery

6 Moon effects may be a bit much, especially given you overall lack of threat diversity here. You may be better off cutting 3 Moon effects for 3 Trinisphere.

EDIT: I might try this for Quad Fires:
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 cavern of souls
4 mountain
4 great furnace

4 batterskull
4 grim monolith
3 thran dynamo
4 chalice of the void
3 trinisphere

4 metalworker
3 godo, bandit warlord
4 magus of the moon
4 lodestone golem
1 phyrexian metamorph

4 bonfire of the damned

2 karn liberated

I'm not overly impressed with what Chandra offers, but 4 Bonfire does sound hot.

[whatwas]

Hello fellow mud enthusiasts, I've been playing a forgemaster build in my local tournaments for a while, which is pretty diverse. I was wondering if anyone else is having problems with enchantress match ups and if there are any strategies I may have overlooked. I must say RUGdelver is a fun match up and the decks are pretty evenly matched. I see a lot of combo so my list reflects that. Tell me what you think any criticism is appreciated.

LAND 21
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 darksteel citadel
3 cavern of souls
4 wasteland
1 crystal vein
1 buried ruin

CREATURES 21
4 Metalworker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 lodestone golem
3 wurmcoil engine
1 platinum emperion
1 myr battlesphere
1 phyrexian metamorph
1 steel hellkite
1 sundering titan
1 blightsteel colossus

SPELLS 18
4 Chalice of the void
4 grim monolith
2 trinisphere
2 lightning greaves
1 mox diamond
1 crucible of worlds
1 thran dynamo
1 staff of domination
1 everflowing chalice
1 karn liberated

SIDEBOARD
2 ratchet bomb
2 spine of ish sah
2 surgical extraction
1 crucible of worlds
1 smokestack
1 grafdigger's cage
2 tormod's crypt
3 phyrexian revoker
1 trinisphere

[noobslayer]

It looks like a very standard mono brown forgemaster list. It's very straight forward, and I think Forgemaster is ultimately not the way to go. How many games have you played where you wished you could just roll through someone resiliently with solid beats and back up. I think cutting the forgemaster package and just rounding out the list with offensive threats is a better game plan. The only forgemaster target I ever truly miss is Sundering Titan, but he is just a house, otherwise turning the other cast of creatures sideways is just as solid. Someone posted a really nice mono brown list a few pages back, and this was what I woulda run, it's just a few cards different:

4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo
3 Metalworker
3 Voltaic Key

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Trinisphere
3 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Batterskull

3 Staff of Nin
1 Karn Liberated

3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Crystal Vein
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Mutavault
3 Rishadan Port

Sideboard:

2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Batterskull
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Trinisphere
1 Oblivion Stone
1 karn liberated
3 Tormod's Crypt

[allek]

I was wondering if anyone else is having problems with enchantress match ups and if there are any strategies I may have overlooked.

All Is Dust should fix that for you unless they play Karmic Justice.

[noobslayer]

Just a random brainstorm. I got to thinking about the role of a card like staff of nin in mud, and how it's supposed to provide consistent midrange value. Well I thought what other cards offer this for the MUD archtype and I immediately jumped to Tezzeret. While not always as permanent and something like staff of nin, the versatility and overall power of tezzeret can't even be compared. So I wanted to try and make a MUD list that could feasibly cast Tezzeret, while trying to build some synergy.

1 academy ruins
1 darksteel citadel
1 island
4 seat of the synod
4 vault of whispers
4 cavern of souls?
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb

4 metalworker
4 lodestone golem
3 phyrexian revoker
1 phyrexian metamorph
2 wurmcoil engine
3 batterskull
3 baleful strix

4 chalice of the void

3 mox opal
3 mox diamond
3 dimir signit

4 tezzeret, agent of bolas

[whatwas]

It looks like a very standard mono brown forgemaster list. It's very straight forward, and I think Forgemaster is ultimately not the way to go. How many games have you played where you wished you could just roll through someone resiliently with solid beats and back up. I think cutting the forgemaster package and just rounding out the list with offensive threats is a better game plan. The only forgemaster target I ever truly miss is Sundering Titan, but he is just a house, otherwise turning the other cast of creatures sideways is just as solid. Someone posted a really nice mono brown list a few pages back, and this was what I woulda run, it's just a few cards different:

Well forgemaster hasn't been a let down. And I run enough fatties so I don't have to depend on him every game. Having turn 2 blightsteel colossus has saved me from dying to 14 goblins a few times (versus belcher). In that scenario I don't know what else could save me. Though that doesn't bring a good argument to the table, I still want some explosive element to the deck rather than just bringing the beats in early game alone. Plus mostly every deck loves longer games in the current meta and mud doesn't benefit from games that go to time, so having the chance to end things early is nice.

[whatwas]

All Is Dust should fix that for you unless they play Karmic Justice.

All is dust should work, so... I'm thinking goodbye karn liberated MD, goodbye smokestack SB, hello all is dust? Sounds right.

[noobslayer]

Well forgemaster hasn't been a let down. And I run enough fatties so I don't have to depend on him every game. Having turn 2 blightsteel colossus has saved me from dying to 14 goblins a few times (versus belcher). In that scenario I don't know what else could save me. Though that doesn't bring a good argument to the table, I still want some explosive element to the deck rather than just bringing the beats in early game alone. Plus mostly every deck loves longer games in the current meta and mud doesn't benefit from games that go to time, so having the chance to end things early is nice.

I can see where you are going with that. I would retune it then. Make forgemaster about adding resiliency, with 2-3 combo options instead for the big win. You shouldn't need a huge range of threats, since if you just focus on the strengths of the MUD archtype, you can accomplish a lot already.

Your mana base looks fine, although you might get more mileage out of Mishra's Factories and a Mutavault than Darksteel Citadels. The Crystal vein might also be redundant since getting that 4th Cavern might help a lot more in the current metagame. I think Emperion is overrated, as is Battlesphere. You can get a lot back via lifelinkers, and the rest of the deck puts plenty of damage into the red zone. I would add another Sundering Titan though as he is pretty house when cast, and you can reach his cc often without needing to combo forgemaster. Plus you could drop him after a forgemaster, then pop into another one for a huge board wipe. I think Blightsteel remains the best combo kill option, it's just so good all around.

From there I would redo some of the artifact configuration base on preference of liking consistency and a bit of flavor so all in all....

-4 Darksteel Citadel
-1 Crystal Vein
+3 Mishra's Factory
+1 Mutavault
+1 Cavern of Souls

-1 Platinum Emperion
-1 Myr Battlesphere
+1 Sundering Titan

-1 Staff of Domination
-1 Mox Diamond
-1 Trinisphere
-1 Crucible of Worlds

+1 Thran Dynamo
+2 Staff of Nin
+1 Batterskull
+1 Karn Liberated

And then just reconfig the board to fit 1 Crucible and 2-3 Trinispheres. And as to what was said is above, All is Dust is a really strong option you have for the main or the board. It can be a lifesaver.

[dillonkbase]

Well forgemaster hasn't been a let down. And I run enough fatties so I don't have to depend on him every game. Having turn 2 blightsteel colossus has saved me from dying to 14 goblins a few times (versus belcher). In that scenario I don't know what else could save me. Though that doesn't bring a good argument to the table, I still want some explosive element to the deck rather than just bringing the beats in early game alone. Plus mostly every deck loves longer games in the current meta and mud doesn't benefit from games that go to time, so having the chance to end things early is nice.

looking for some crazy chanin of cards to beat belcer seems worse than playling a card like ratchet bomb that can kill all sorts of problems...

[whatwas]

I can see where you are going with that. I would retune it then. Make forgemaster about adding resiliency, with 2-3 combo options instead for the big win. You shouldn't need a huge range of threats, since if you just focus on the strengths of the MUD archtype, you can accomplish a lot already.

Your mana base looks fine, although you might get more mileage out of Mishra's Factories and a Mutavault than Darksteel Citadels. The Crystal vein might also be redundant since getting that 4th Cavern might help a lot more in the current metagame. I think Emperion is overrated, as is Battlesphere. You can get a lot back via lifelinkers, and the rest of the deck puts plenty of damage into the red zone. I would add another Sundering Titan though as he is pretty house when cast, and you can reach his cc often without needing to combo forgemaster. Plus you could drop him after a forgemaster, then pop into another one for a huge board wipe. I think Blightsteel remains the best combo kill option, it's just so good all around.

From there I would redo some of the artifact configuration base on preference of liking consistency and a bit of flavor so all in all....

-4 Darksteel Citadel
-1 Crystal Vein
+3 Mishra's Factory
+1 Mutavault
+1 Cavern of Souls

-1 Platinum Emperion
-1 Myr Battlesphere
+1 Sundering Titan

-1 Staff of Domination
-1 Mox Diamond
-1 Trinisphere
-1 Crucible of Worlds

+1 Thran Dynamo
+2 Staff of Nin
+1 Batterskull
+1 Karn Liberated

And then just reconfig the board to fit 1 Crucible and 2-3 Trinispheres. And as to what was said is above, All is Dust is a really strong option you have for the main or the board. It can be a lifesaver.

I just took staff of nin out bc almost every time I drew it I was wishing it were a wurmcoil or something else. It's too slow for my play taste. Mox diamond is okay since it makes for better opening hands. Karn has been a boring draw as well. All is dust is replacing him. Trinisphere is an all star for it's good soft lock.
Other than that I like the idea of more thran dynamo. I love the boost it gives. Late game, platinum emperion is all I have going for me but I guess if I run more lifelink I won't need him. Caverns should be a 4of your right, there aswell. The citadels is good vs wasteland. But I would love to brush the dust off my winter factory ;)

[noobslayer]

I just took staff of nin out bc almost every time I drew it I was wishing it were a wurmcoil or something else. It's too slow for my play taste. Mox diamond is okay since it makes for better opening hands. Karn has been a boring draw as well. All is dust is replacing him. Trinisphere is an all star for it's good soft lock.
Other than that I like the idea of more thran dynamo. I love the boost it gives. Late game, platinum emperion is all I have going for me but I guess if I run more lifelink I won't need him. Caverns should be a 4of your right, there aswell. The citadels is good vs wasteland. But I would love to brush the dust off my winter factory ;)

I fail to see how Karn is boring when he just begins to obliterate board and hand position from the moment he shows up. The rest of the soft lock pieces exist so when a bomb like Karn hits, he doesn't have to be clearing an entire board away like All is Dust would. If you wanted a more control route though you could cut the 2 Staff of Nin and have 2 karn 2 AiD. The point of Nin is really just to grind out a position for less mana compared to Domination. And it gets kinda dirty of you copy on with your metamorph. I liked the Everflowing Chalice as a 1-of, let me know how its variable acceleration works out for you.

[whatwas]

I fail to see how Karn is boring when he just begins to obliterate board and hand position from the moment he shows up. The rest of the soft lock pieces exist so when a bomb like Karn hits, he doesn't have to be clearing an entire board away like All is Dust would. If you wanted a more control route though you could cut the 2 Staff of Nin and have 2 karn 2 AiD. The point of Nin is really just to grind out a position for less mana compared to Domination. And it gets kinda dirty of you copy on with your metamorph. I liked the Everflowing Chalice as a 1-of, let me know how its variable acceleration works out for you.

Karns + All is Dust sounds good to me. I'll take out domination for All Is Dust, since it can be a dead draw and keep karn. I'll also add sundering Titan to the board. Probably should run two AiD and Two karn but one AiD on board shouldn't be bad. When I can afford 2nd karn I'll think about putting him in.

[TheRedBaron]

Karns + All is Dust sounds good to me. I'll take out domination for All Is Dust, since it can be a dead draw and keep karn. I'll also add sundering Titan to the board. Probably should run two AiD and Two karn but one AiD on board shouldn't be bad. When I can afford 2nd karn I'll think about putting him in.

Here is my completely colorless list I'm running tonight at my LGS. I may wind up adding welder but, I wanted something different:


4 Metalworker
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Angel
4 Lodestone Golem

4 Grim Monolith
2 Thran Dynamo
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Voltaic Key
3 Lightning Greaves

2 Karn Liberated

4 Crystal Vein
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls



Sieboard


2 Spine of Ish Tah
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sundering Titan
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Phyrexian Revoker

[SirTylerGalt]

Crystal Vein is bad. There are so many good lands. Why play this one?

Mishra's Factory (which you can animate to get an artifact to sac to Kuldotha)
Buried Ruin
Cavern of Souls
Thespian's Stage

[noobslayer]

I agree about Crystal Vein being bad, as well as Darksteel Citadel in many instances. Having room for Cavern of Souls AND Mishra's Factory in the mono brown mana base is a huge reason to run it over any of the colored variants.

[whatwas]

Well crystal vein is a bit of a desperate choice. I'm putting in a second buried ruin and running 4 factory's tonight. I just liked citadel's indestructiblity

[whatwas]

Well crystal vein is a bit of a desperate choice. I'm putting in a second buried ruin and running 4 factory's tonight. I just liked citadel's indestructiblity


Well crystal vein is a bit of a desperate choice. I'm putting in a second buried ruin and running 4 factory's tonight. I just liked citadel's indestructiblity

I went 3-1 made 4th and split.
Round 1: modern infect deck.
G1 lost to surprise infect for 10 poison
G2 blightsteel on turn 3
G3 blightsteel again late game he wouldn't attack with untapped factory's out

R2 RUG delver
G1 he beats my face in countering what he can while dropping mongooses, until I land forgemaster and search for my emperion. I then swing with wurmcoil until he dies
G2 he boards in extra counterspells and ancient grudge. I board in sundering Titan and notice I don't have a crucible in my board. Knowing he'll board extra counters I take two surgical extraction.
His counter wall last all the way until he get a 4/5 goyf. I get stomped.
G3 I lost the same way as before. 16 counters.

Round 3 belcher
His buddy was playing a protour so he gives me the wins so he could watch it. Would have been easy to beat awyways.
Round 4 UWR tempo
G1 he plays delver and I go ancient tomb monolith he then dazed it. I draw mox diamond and play another sol land to drop lodestone. Then he gets delver and geist of saint traft out and flips delver next turn with swords on topdeck. He wins
G2 I'm on the play open with lightning greaves and turn 2 wurmcoil hit him with it there's nothing he can do at that point.
G3 he opens with pithing needle naming metalworker( he hadn't played legacy in a month) I play chalice on 1... he forgot artifact hate in his board. So he gives up.

[vintersorg]

Hey guys, long time no see, anyway here's my current list, I have awesome results against tier 1 decks, so here it goes:

Artifacts
4 Grim monolith
3 Tangle Wire
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Mindslaver
1 Spine of Ish Sah

Creatures
4 Goblin Welder
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Metalworker
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

Spells
3 Faitless looting

Lands
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 mountain
4 great furnace
2 cavern of fouls
2 buried ruins

[whatwas]

Hey guys, long time no see, anyway here's my current list, I have awesome results against tier 1 decks, so here it goes:

Artifacts
4 Grim monolith
3 Tangle Wire
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Mindslaver
1 Spine of Ish Sah

Creatures
4 Goblin Welder
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Metalworker
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

Spells
3 Faitless looting

Lands
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 mountain
4 great furnace
2 cavern of fouls
2 buried ruins
Why not try to fit wasteland and mox diamond in since you run crucible of worlds? Or chalice MD instead of looting since you have caverns?

[Snapback]

Hello! I recently went 5-0 at a small local legacy tournament with MUD (19-player Swiss, no cut to T8). This was my first sanctioned tournament with the deck.

CREATURES
1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine

THE ALL-FATHER
2 Karn Liberated

ARTIFACTS
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Mox Opal
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Trinisphere

LANDS
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Buried Ruin
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Mishra's Factory

SIDEBOARD
2 All Is Dust
2 Cursed Totem
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Omen Machine
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Platinum Emperion
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Trinisphere

Played against UR Delver, Mono-red, Reanimator, UWr Miracles, and Goblins. Dropped a game to Delver and Miracles. The meta was full of fair blue decks. I definitely felt the advantage of playing a rogue deck, as I had tested all the matchups in the room, at least a bit. I didn't keep notes, unfortunately, as it was a pretty friendly tournament and I didn't expect to do well. Round 2 was fun, as I got to ultimate Karn on 1 life. Game 2 against Goblins, I played out a Wurmcoil Engine that induced my opponent to empty his hand onto the board, as I hoped. The follow-up of All is Dust garnered a quick scoop.

Playing with big, powerful spells is very fun! There's nothing like dropping Karn opposite Jace, or casually putting two Wurmcoil Engines into play from a Metalworker.

PS - the UW Miracle matchup feels very challenging. What sideboard cards do you guys use? Right now, I'm doing +1 Revoker, +1 Omen Machine, +3 Trinisphere; -2 Steel Hellkite, -1 Platinum Emperion, -1 Ratchet Bomb, -1 Wurmcoil Engine.

[fogxanic]

Hello! I recently went 5-0 at a small local legacy tournament with MUD (19-player Swiss, no cut to T8). This was my first sanctioned tournament with the deck.

CREATURES
1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine

THE ALL-FATHER
2 Karn Liberated

ARTIFACTS
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Mox Opal
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Trinisphere

LANDS
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Buried Ruin
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Mishra's Factory

SIDEBOARD
2 All Is Dust
2 Cursed Totem
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Omen Machine
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Platinum Emperion
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Trinisphere

Played against UR Delver, Mono-red, Reanimator, UWr Miracles, and Goblins. Dropped a game to Delver and Miracles. The meta was full of fair blue decks. I definitely felt the advantage of playing a rogue deck, as I had tested all the matchups in the room, at least a bit. I didn't keep notes, unfortunately, as it was a pretty friendly tournament and I didn't expect to do well. Round 2 was fun, as I got to ultimate Karn on 1 life. Game 2 against Goblins, I played out a Wurmcoil Engine that induced my opponent to empty his hand onto the board, as I hoped. The follow-up of All is Dust garnered a quick scoop.

Playing with big, powerful spells is very fun! There's nothing like dropping Karn opposite Jace, or casually putting two Wurmcoil Engines into play from a Metalworker.

PS - the UW Miracle matchup feels very challenging. What sideboard cards do you guys use? Right now, I'm doing +1 Revoker, +1 Omen Machine, +3 Trinisphere; -2 Steel Hellkite, -1 Platinum Emperion, -1 Ratchet Bomb, -1 Wurmcoil Engine.

Against UW miracles I think best cards are Karn Liberated and Staff of Nin. Creatures won't do much good because of Jace and Terminus and swords. Maybe enough Lodestones very quick would do something. I also play 2 Batterskull so its left intact on battlefield after creature removal you can equip it even for mishra's factory and attack.

[Alex Holland]

Anyone tried smokestack in MUD? nice synergy with wurmcoil engine/ goblin welder tricks

[TheRedBaron]

Crystal Vein is bad. There are so many good lands. Why play this one?

Mishra's Factory (which you can animate to get an artifact to sac to Kuldotha)
Buried Ruin
Cavern of Souls
Thespian's Stage



I agree about Crystal Vein being bad, as well as Darksteel Citadel in many instances. Having room for Cavern of Souls AND Mishra's Factory in the mono brown mana base is a huge reason to run it over any of the colored variants.

I took both of your suggestions, and reworked my list a little, went 4-0-1 last friday (drew into top 8, wound up losing to a W stax Hero of Bladehold variant)

I'm still not completely sold on Welder yet (even though I know it is strong), so I'm still running colorless version, and may pick up 1-2 All is Dust. Also, may cram a Sundering Titan MD, couldn't find staff of nin, so I put Triskelion on board:

This list I had 4 wins with:


4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Karn Liberated

3 Mox Diamond
4 Grim Monolith
3 Voltaic Key
2 Trinisphere
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lightning Greaves

2 Darksteel Citadel
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Crystal Vein
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

//Board

2 Karn Liberated
1 Trinisphere
3 Thorn of Amythest
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ratchet Bomb



Edit: reply


Anyone tried smokestack in MUD? nice synergy with wurmcoil engine/ goblin welder tricks

I think that would be fine, but you should decide on the general direction you want to go, I think Smokestack + Tangle Wire can fit, but you might want to go with a more Stax like version, also Karn, Silver Golem is legit with those redundant 3-4 cmc artifacts.

[Alex Holland]

Smokestack mud

Why smokestack? Because MUD can explode really fast- then it can consolidate a board position by dropping a smokestack. Wurmcoil is a nice card to sac. Saccing a batterskull token isnt terrible either. Goblin welder likes saccing very much too. Plus it takes care of exhausted monoliths that im always stuck with.

LANDS
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 cavern of souls
6 mountain
4 great furnace

MANA ACC.
4 grim monolith
2 thran dynamo
3 metalworker

DISRUPTION
4 chalice of the void
3 smokestack
4 magus of the moon
4 lodestone golem

CREATURES
3 wurmcoil engine
3 goblin welder
2 batterskull
1 karn silver golem

REMOVAL
2 karn liberated
3 bonfire of the damned

[noobslayer]

That's definitely a cool look, and not something I had considered earlier, which should have been more obvious. That being said I would opt for the 4th Metalworker over Karn, Silver golem because it let's you drop your hand more consistently and consolidate your position which is what Smokestack wants. The mana base looks pretty solid for what you want to do as well. I wanted to mention crucible, but with this build since you aren't running wastelands or man lands you wouldn't get as much mileage out of it, but for a mono brown mudstax possibly.

[whatwas]

I'm thinking about changing things up this week and playing a welder build. Maybe.

[Alex Holland]

That's definitely a cool look, and not something I had considered earlier, which should have been more obvious. That being said I would opt for the 4th Metalworker over Karn, Silver golem because it let's you drop your hand more consistently and consolidate your position which is what Smokestack wants. The mana base looks pretty solid for what you want to do as well. I wanted to mention crucible, but with this build since you aren't running wastelands or man lands you wouldn't get as much mileage out of it, but for a mono brown mudstax possibly.

crucible is a very good idea in a stax build, except i deeply love magus of the moon. I also appreciate bonfire really much since i tried the godo builds so i need to secure my own mana base in this version with 10(or 14 with cavern) red sources.

karn silver golem could be switched for a extra batterskull- i just need to try =karn silver golem for a while first a lotof poeple mention him so he must have siomething good.

[noobslayer]

He is good in a deck that has trouble mustering its own threat base, which MUD doesn't suffer from.

[Esper3k]

Karn seems pretty amazing against Jund though.

Stands in front of those 5/6, 6/7 Tarmogoyfs all day like a champ!

[whatwas]

After alot of thought about the gaming environment at my local tournament, I'm going to go change it up a lot this week. I'll be playing a stax build with a splash of red for welder. I have tried this before without key cards in which I now possess. It will run all of coming into play abilities along with smokestack+tangle wire. Here's what I have, let me know if there's any last minute changes that you think I should make ;)
LAND 21
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
3 cavern of souls
4 wasteland
4 great furnace
2 mountain
MANA ACCELERATION 11
4 metalworker
4 grim monolith
1 mox diamond
2 mox Opal
WELDER+FRIENDS 11
4 goblin welder
2 sundering Titan
3 wurmcoil engine
1 batterskull
1 spine of ish sah
LOCKS 17
3 smokestack
2 tangle wire
2 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
4 lodestone golem
2 crucible of worlds
SB
1 spine of ish sah
2 bloodmoon
2 contagion engine
1 trinisphere
2 tormod's crypt
2 surgical extraction
1 grafdigger's cage
2 ratchet bomb
2 phyrexian revoker

Also: Should I run forgemaster?
Trading post/masticore?

[fogxanic]

I played earlier this week at 21 player tournament result 3-1. Matchups were 2-0 elves, 0-2 BUG Delver, 2-1 goblins, 2-0 maverick. Still very hard times against delver decks because chalice does nothing I think. It also played tombstalker and tarmogoyfs. Any1 tryed Dodecapods on side :cry:? Razormane masticore was overkill against maverick (equipped with greaves).

MUD

Lands: 21

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
3x City of Traitors
1x Karakas
2x Mishra's Factory
3x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

Creatures: 17

1x Duplicant
4x Lodestone Golem
3x Metalworker
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Razormane Masticore
1x Steel Hellkite
3x Wurmcoil Engine

Spells: 22

2x Batterskull
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Defense Grid
4x Grim Monolith
2x Karn Liberated
2x Lightning Greaves
2x Staff of Nin
2x Thran Dynamo
3x Voltaic Key

Side: 15

2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Razormane Masticore
3x Spellskite
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Trinisphere

[dcosiem]

Hi, I'm been playing MUD for almost a year now. Here is my list. I think it is pretty good. All of you may want to model your decks after me because I feel this is the best version of the deck. Explanation will be at the bottom.

Deck
Creatures
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
3 Copper Gnomes
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
Lands
4 Great Furnace
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Wasteland

Spells
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Mindslaver
1 Staff of Domination
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull
Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
2 Pithing Needle

So my deck is pretty standard build.

Chalice of the Void/Trinisphere in the sideboard:
I don't maindeck Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void because it can hurt me while hurting my opponent. I consider this a disadvantage when I play 4 Goblin Welder, 2 Sensei's Divining Top, 4 Grim Monolith, 3 Lightning Greaves, and 3 Copper Gnomes because they can slow me down. I would have to rely on having sufficient land base to cast a 1 spell for 3 mana. Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void is definitely good against Combo decks, and certain tempo decks.

Note: I believe this deck is a combo deck with Kuldotha Forgemaster with the ability to win on turn 2 with a Blightsteel Colossus.

Goblin Welder in the Maindeck:
A lot of people I see are trying to run Mud without Goblin Welder. I think this is stupid because Goblin Welder is suppose to take all of the artifact cards from those that have been countered. There is no need to run Cavern of Souls because of this interaction with Goblin Welder. We all like to name Construct, Golem, goblin and even Wrum from time to time to make them stick, but with a Goblin Welder on the field that is active and has Lightning Greaves on it, our big body bomb card is good as gold if it is countered.

Note: The thing about Goblin Welder, and Metal Worker is opponents are always going to hate those cards because it is what makes our deck play unfair. Adding a couple of Spellskite doesn't seem like a bad idea for this reason.

+3 Copper Gnomes:
Since, cards like Goblin Welder, and Metal Worker are always being targeted by opponent's hate, some people play cards like Thran Dynamo, Voltaic Key, Grim Monolith
in case if Metal Worker gets hit, we can always hard cast our bomb card. Copper Gnomes is just another version of Metal Worker doing the same thing. For 4 mana after you pay 2 to cast it, you can drop a fatty. It seems nice if you have only 4 mana available in your land base. In any case, people will probably end up hating this card as well, but in any case, they have wasted another hate card, and hopefully we have another unfair advantage card like Metal Worker in our hand to play.

Note: I feel like cards like Thran Dynamo and Voltaic Key
is just a waste of deck space because you are already playing Sol Lands with a Grim Monolith. Taping that Grim Monolith is a bitch when you have no way of untapping it immediately or for a while. Wastelanddecks are always a bitch to play against because Wastelandis prevalent and keeps out decks in check. But, that is why this deck runs it's own Wasteland and Crucible of the Worlds so that we can retrieve them if it happens.

No Moxes:
I use to play 2 Lotus Petal, and 2 Mox Opal for an explosive start, but I really feel that in certain match-ups you don't need an explosive start, but a resilient way to finish out your opponent sufficiently. That is why I run 3 Wasteland, and 1 Crucible of the Worlds because it makes my mana base more consisted and concentrated as well as having the ability to disrupt my opponents mana base.

I went 4-0 in a local tourney a couple weeks ago when I ran 3 Blood Moonin the main deck oppose to 3 Copper Gnomes. I played against Omni-tell, Goblin Charbelcher, Manaless Dredge, and Mono blue Faries.

I plan on playing a Starcity event soon in about 2 weeks. Hopefully, I'll do well. Thanks for reading. Feel free to express your thoughts of if you have any feedbacks, I would love to hear it.

[Esper3k]

How are you consistently casting Goblin Welder when you only have 4 red sources?

[Alex Holland]

All of you may want to model your decks after me because I feel this is the best version of the deck

Thanks for the advise. Kuldotha is bad. If they stiffle you your done 3 for 1. Why 4 welder and 4 furnace? It will be a dead card in your hand.

[dcosiem]

How are you consistently casting Goblin Welder when you only have 4 red sources?

I feel like that is all that I need because I haven't had hands where Goblin Welder just sits in my hand. I usually get red mana source to play him. In any case, if I'm unlucky and have him sit in my hand without a red mana source in play then it is what it is. Goblin Welder is plan C of attack oppose to Metal Worker is plan A, and plan b is hardcasting big spells.


Thanks for the advise. Kuldotha is bad. If they stiffle you your done 3 for 1. Why 4 welder and 4 furnace? It will be a dead card in your hand.

The fact if you don't play Kuldotha, Mud becomes Mud stompy. I feel like this version, Mud stompy has less advantage if you don't have some kind of card engine filter or extra card draw ability in the deck. Using Staff of Nin seems to fill that role, but for 6 mana, that seems to steep for me to play for an extra card draw. If you have Thran Dynamo, and Voltaic Key or with Grim Monolith out, it seems fine. If you trinisphere and chalice of your opponent, hopefully he has no answers for your creatures. Hopefully, he doesn't have an Abrut Decay or an Ancient Grude in game 2 to get out of the bind.

Note:Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void is really good agaisnt so many decks like Rug, Esper Blade, Elves, Tendrils combo, even UW. I've considered this fact, but I don't want to get rid of Goblin Welder because it's extra fun interactions. I can abuse Myr Battlesphere with Goblin Welder, and use tokens as fodder for Kuldotha Forgemaster ability.

If they stifle your Forgemaster, then you're greedy because you're trying to win fast. If you're playing against Rug, you should better know when to do things like activate Forgemaster when your opponent's lands are untapped. I would consider beating down my opponent with a resolved Kuldotha Forgemaster against Rug because it's a 3/5. Tarmogoyf won't be a 5/6 unless your opponent has an artifact, lands, sorcery, instant and creature. It possibly can happen, but if you can cast a Forgemaster, then most likely you can also cast a 6 mana card spell hopefully. If you can't and you're staring at a 5/6 Tarmogoyf, and he has a Stifle in his hand, you can win if you have like a Wurmcoil Engine in your hand or Steel Hellkite Dragon or Batterskull. If you simply have nothing, then I guess you lose if you're at a 1 turn clock. If you're not, then you still have another turn or several to draw something good.

Note:I think this game is all luck and no skill invovled except for knowing when to choose to attack and not to attack. I don't like to rely on luck either, but since I think this is true, you have to play with what you got, and go for it. What are the chances that your opponent has as his last card a Stifle in his hand? He could be bluffing a Stifle instead for a Lightning bolt or un castable Force of Will or an extra land in his hand. You never know, but you can know that even if he had a Stifle, at least you had the balls to go for it when most people would sit back, and wait. So, if it is the case, you sit back and wait, until you have a better position to activate Forgemaster.

[Zirath]

Hi, I'm been playing MUD for almost a year now. Here is my list. I think it is pretty good. All of you may want to model your decks after me because I feel this is the best version of the deck. Explanation will be at the bottom.

Do you have significant finishes outside of locals to back up that statement? Goblin Welder and red in general has not successfully produced strong results recently.

It's interesting that you say MUD Stompy is weaker than Forgemaster based on the top deck argument. When you run Rishadan Port, Buried Ruin and Mishra's Factory, you have a significantly lower number of land draws that are dead. In addition, mana sources power your utility lands. Stompy actually has a lategame plan if your opponent disrupts you and it also has an early game plan outside of "stick mana, stick fatty".

I have probably said this before but I will say it again now: Trinisphere is bad in this format. Many decks play heavy numbers of lands. It is only strictly better than other options against Storm combo. Decks like RUG, Esper and Sneak Show are more hampered by Sphere of Resistance or Thorn of Amethyst since it lets you force them to trip on their mana.

[Esper3k]

I feel like that is all that I need because I haven't had hands where Goblin Welder just sits in my hand. I usually get red mana source to play him. In any case, if I'm unlucky and have him sit in my hand without a red mana source in play then it is what it is. Goblin Welder is plan C of attack oppose to Metal Worker is plan A, and plan b is hardcasting big spells.

It's not a luck thing - with only 4 red mana sources in your deck and no real way to find them you're going to run into problems casting Welder.

[dcosiem]

It's not a luck thing - with only 4 red mana sources in your deck and no real way to find them you're going to run into problems casting Welder.

You're totally right with this idea, but I consider it option C oppose to option A which is to cast Metal Worker and cheat in a Big Fattie. I can if I want if I have the hand to have 8 cards in hand and discard a fattie. During my second turn I drop Goblin Welder, and during my 3rd third, I activate Goblin Welder's abilty, but sometimes he'll get hated, and I lose an artifact. I'm always going to try to mull or keep a hand that I'm able to cast a turn 1 Metal Worker. This is for sure.

On a side note, I might take out Copper Gnomes and put in Voltaic Key back in, since someone on another fourm mentioned how good it really is.


Do you have significant finishes outside of locals to back up that statement? Goblin Welder and red in general has not successfully produced strong results recently.

It's interesting that you say MUD Stompy is weaker than Forgemaster based on the top deck argument. When you run Rishadan Port, Buried Ruin and Mishra's Factory, you have a significantly lower number of land draws that are dead. In addition, mana sources power your utility lands. Stompy actually has a lategame plan if your opponent disrupts you and it also has an early game plan outside of "stick mana, stick fatty".

I have probably said this before but I will say it again now: Trinisphere is bad in this format. Many decks play heavy numbers of lands. It is only strictly better than other options against Storm combo. Decks like RUG, Esper and Sneak Show are more hampered by Sphere of Resistance or Thorn of Amethyst since it lets you force them to trip on their mana.

I just started playing MUD in tournments. I went 4-0 on my first try. I've been playing it for a year almost on Cockatrice before it got shut down. I was in the mear works of finishing paying for all the cards in this deck. It's not cheap deck if you play the Rishadan Port, Wasteland, and even Cavern of Souls. I was playing Cavern of Souls when I went 4-0 with 3 Blood Moon, 2 Lotus petals, and 2 Mox Opal in the main deck before this list.

The results are this:

G1: Omni-tell: Sadly, the person who piloted Omni-tell was my brother, so I know the match-up. Mud Forgemaster Combo is more reliable since Omni-tell doesn't get the nut hands sometimes and is force to can-trip into their combo pieces. Mud Forgemaster Combo has very good synergy due to Sol lands making every card playable in less turns then it should normally be.

G2: Mannaless dredge: Manaless dredge was to slow against my turn 3-4 Forgemaster combo to Blightsteel on both games. He had no side hate for my decks.

G3:Mono blue faries w/ Ninjas: The faries deck was a joke win. He had no idea what was coming. It was with like Ninjistu and Cloud of Faires with Jitte and equipments.

G4: Goblin Charbelcher: I believe I got lucky on the Charbelcher match-up because he didn't turn 1 me both games. I beat it 2-0. On turn 2 in the first game he goes off for 14 goblins, and I've already dropped a Metalworker with a Platnium Emperion in hand. During my turn after his turn, I show him 5 artifacts, and played Platnium Emperion with the thought, "what's up." in my head. I slowly play my other artifact cards which we Lodestone Golem and a Forgemaster, and slowly combo out to a Myr Battlesphere. I close him out with Blightsteel to be safe. Game 2 I mull to 5 cards with no lands but a lotus petal and a pithing needle wth some other **** cards. He plays first and plays a Goblin Charbelcer without killing me. I drop Pithing Needle on my turn, and we race after this. My deck outrace him eventually.

[whatwas]

@dco: you say you went 4-0 bc your build. But that's only half true. You probably went 4-0 bc it was the first time you played it there. Mud is an awesome deck choice but it does even better in the circumstances you stated. Mostly bc it was the rogue deck/ first time being brought to your local tournament. Once people learn to counter welder and bolt metalworker it gets tricky. Congratulations on your luck so far in either case.
@forgemaster vs. stifle: it sucks when that happens but lightning greaves helps. I usually know if someone plays stifle at the local events so ill wait til I get wurms or a Titan that way its not total loss when I sac them. And always waitimg until the sac targets are attacking or have attacked helps. Even if there's greaves out and you could attack for game with blightsteel. If you have the win you have the win. Why not play it safe anyways? Its not about having the balls, its about being smart and not greedy. One key rule of magic is to wait until the last moment to do things whether it be brainstorm, fetching, combat tricks or wasteland. ;)

[whatwas]

I have probably said this before but I will say it again now: Trinisphere is bad in this format. Many decks play heavy numbers of lands. It is only strictly better than other options against Storm combo. Decks like RUG, Esper and Sneak Show are more hampered by Sphere of Resistance or Thorn of Amethyst since it lets you force them to trip on their mana.

I'll stop maindecking trinispheres when I stop seeing greedy manabases with 12+ onedrops and free counterspells :wink:
Lodestone and wasteland could be enough but trinisphere on top not only confuses adept players but is golden when up against combo for game 1 wins.

[Zirath]

I'll stop maindecking trinispheres when I stop seeing greedy manabases with 12+ onedrops and free counterspells :wink:
Lodestone and wasteland could be enough but trinisphere on top not only confuses adept players but is golden when up against combo for game 1 wins.

Trinisphere has been poor for me consistently. A number of decks just simply don't care. Especially with the abundance of Deathrite Shamans, it's hard to lock up a game with 3spheres. Granted I have never played MD 3sphere because of bad experiences with Dragon Stompy.

@dcosiem: Just be open to the fact that many of us who have played MUD heavily (I have piloted it consistently for over a year) found Red to be unhelpful, especially in a big tournament where you will experience more variance. If price is an issue, then that's another story. Good luck with MUD.

[Fry]

@ Whoever cares to read this:
I love MUD, been playing it for a bit over a year now and it's served me rather well with some pretty decent final standings.

I liked Welder a lot at first since I love decks with tricks (Also why I love Death and Taxes, but that's a different thread) and Welder can certainly create some great ones. However with that said it hurts when it's a dead card when you can't play it and it doesn't ramp Metalworker to making more mana for you when you can't play it. Trading Post fills a similar role and is a one of in my list for that reason as well as it being tutorable and the other abilities can be very helpful, even ask Grim Lavamancer, lifegain from it helps while digging into Wurmcoil.

I agree that Trinisphere isn't as good as it used to be, at least in my opinion. I've fairly recently switched them over to Thorn of Amethyst, mainly because Thorns hardly bother us any different than Trinisphere and it's a turn one hate card (I personally think them to be very important and sometimes win games on their own by shutting down your opponent before they can really do much) without the need of Monolith (unlike Sphere). Thorn still forces the paying of mana along with alternate casting costs such as F.O.W. and Omniscience shenanegains.

I personally love Staff of Nin in my build, it allows you to empty your hand with Metalworker and still have things to do your next turn, such as possibly combo-ing with Staff of Domination.

@ Dcosiem:
I agree with Whatwas in that part of why you probably did so well is that many people in your local haven't played against/know how to play against Forgemaster or Stompy MUD. As people learn how better to combat the deck, you'll have to grow with it yourself to continue to do well with it. I'm not saying that I'm an expert on the deck or anything of the sort, but I have had considerable experience with the Forgemaster build and timing is everything, and knowing what to sac and what to tutor for is secondary.

[dcosiem]

@whatwas
Thank you for the praise. I neither like to depend on luck, but this game is all about luck in my mind. What you say is true about doing things at the last moment only when you have to. It's very important I believe in Magic that you always want to deceive your opponent by bluffing something that you don't have or by playing your less strong plays but still easily good plays first before you play the strong cards. For example, your opponent has 5 cards in his hand and it is turn 1. He is on the play and shows you a Delver. He has only played a tropical Island, and he is tapped out. It's your turn and You have an Ancient Tomb in your hand as well as goblin welder, a great furnace, metal worker, grim monolith and a lightning greeves. What do you play first? Do you play Goblin Welder first hoping to bait him to keep him from countering a turn 1 ancient tomb > grim monolith > Metalworker? Or do you play ancient tomb > Lightning Greeves. You don't know if he has a Daze or not or even a Force of Will. What do you do? I guess this is what Magic is all about. Making the right decision in a tough situation. Thats why in these situations, sometimes I ball out because he may not have a daze or even a Force of Will in his hand, and you may be able to land a Lightning Greeves or even a Grim Monolith out, which most likely he'll try to counter possibly to stop the combo. You have a good point of the use of Trinisphere. I've decided to keep it in my sideboard because if you can Wasteland and Rishadan Port your opponent, then Trinisphere is really good against all decks.

@Zirath
Could you clarify the context in which Goblin Welder and Red seems useless to you. In what situation against certain decks that you played against was he bad and that you wish he was something else, and what would that else be?

@Fry
I've realized that too that people will certainly adapt to my deck, but that's how everyone plays in Magic. If one week at Starcity games, a certain deck does well, surely people are going to bring a deck that can easily beat it. I find that Trinisphere will be very nice against a Dream Halls/Omniscience deck.

How good is the build with main deck Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void?

What if I went - 4 Goblin Welder, - 4 Great Furnance, - 2 Sensei's Diving Top, -2 Voltaic Key. +4 Chalice of the Void, +4 Trinisphere, + 4 Rishadan Port.

How effective would a list be if I ran that in the maindeck?

[TheRedBaron]

So, this is my latest iteration...

In the slots that would normally be welder, Dynamo, Opal, Diamond... I find those unimpressive. I'll lean towards opal/diamond however Dcosiem has me intrigued on Copper Gnome. Seems like this can be a decent backup plan.


So here it is:

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Copper Gnomes
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel

4 Chalice of The Void
2 Trinisphere
3 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Spine of Ish Sah

4 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl
1 Buried Ruin
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

//Board
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sundering Titan
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Trinisphere
2 Karn Liberated
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Silent Arbiter
1 Mindslaver

[Zirath]

@Zirath
Could you clarify the context in which Goblin Welder and Red seems useless to you. In what situation against certain decks that you played against was he bad and that you wish he was something else, and what would that else be?

For me, Welder is winmore. Many of the games that I have found are won with a Welder, can be won without him. I would rather play a more consistent deck where I can win more a losing position than a deck that sometimes autowins. When I am losing with MUD, it's because I got tripped on mana. Welder doesn't fix that most of the time since he usually also bites the bullet before he can be useful. He exposes you to cards like Liliana of the Veil and Abrupt Decay in particular. He also doesn't help in the combo match up. The only other red card I would ever want to play is Blood Moon but then I am shut off from too many other options. Lastly, you need to guarantee you can get red mana when you need it which means I have to play Mountains and Great Furnaces. These are things I as a player do not want to be doing.

Whether or not you like playing with Red is something you need to figure out. I never said it was useless but there are very few strong finishes with red MUD lists.

[noobslayer]

@dcosiem:

No one said red is not powerful. Far from it. It's just that Welder is like a fart in the wind for MUD when you have access to Bonfire, Godo, and Magus/Bloodmoon. Those spells actually do something for you, and advance your board state. My other issue with Welder is it seems to make everyone want to run Lightning Greaves, which I honestly believe to be one of the biggest wasted slots in the entire archetype.

Also I have shied away from Kuldotha because like everyone else said, 3-for-1 is terrible, it' hard to even hit sometimes against careful opponents, and stifle just shits on it. The stompy plan as opposed to the combo plan is far more stable and lets you rely on layers of redundancies and soft locks that build up to a tremendous advantage over the course of a few turns while your guys seal it out.

If you are truly insistent on maintaining Welder, add a few more red sources, cavern of souls, go to 3 welders, chalice, and drop your forgemaster targets down to 2-3 (I'd honestly go with 2 Sundering Titans, and 1 Blightsteel, with a Platz in the board). Chalice at 1 can still let welder resolve with Cavern, which is far too important considering how much 1cc hate will get targeted at him if he gets to the table with any decent targets in the yard. The reason I say go to 3 welders, is because welder is not the deck. It's not even an engine. You have to commit way more resources than it's worth to FULLY abuse the card, and in the end you lose out on a lot of the good stuff the deck requires, like chalice @ 1. Welder is just a value card, and doesn't often win games like everyone seems to believe.

[dcosiem]

@Zirath

Blood Moon is good, and we can go by it if we have a metalworkers in play. I agree with you that Goblin Welder is a win more card. You definitly can win without him though if you have Metalworker out or have enough mana to hard cast anything, but I guess his advantage is to use countered/discarded artifacts to be more valuable. In decks against blue/white, he's vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares. Against Rug, he's vulnerable to Lightning bolts. Blood Moon shut's off Rug decks making them only play red, as well as Jund, and even EsperBlade but not so much. So i guess Blood Moon is ok. I use to play them. But, I decided I wanted to play Copper Gnomes to have additional out to my combo.

Side Note: I really like Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void in tier 1 match ups against RUG, ESPER, & U/W. I guess that is what that matters, if you can lock out your opponent while still have the ability to play your big spells with a far advantage board presence through larger mana base. Sneak attack doesn't really get slowed down to much unless we set Chalice of the Void at 3 or 4, which is possible.

@noobslayer

I feel like Goblin Welder, Copper Gnomes is much better for a fast auto-win. But, I guess in this format it can be challenging. I have no idea how well a main deck Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere is. I think its good if we're able to Chalice of the void their 1 and 2 against most decks.

I played a game recently with the Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void against Dreamhalls/Eye of the Infinite deck, and it seems like we're good if we are able to Chalice of the Void for 3 to stop Show and tell, and beat them down with a beater. But if we can't get a beater down, we can lose even with Trinisphere out since they can just get enough mana to do everything they need to do, play Dream halls for 5, then pay 3 for Omniscience then play Emrakul for 3 mana.

I feel like I'm just going to go combo route instead of lock down control build. How good is the lock down control build? Is there any really good consistent one?

[(nameless one)]

As much as I want Goblin Welder to be good, if you have no means to abuse it, Welder becomes mediocre.

Cavern of Souls is better protection against permission.

Chalice is better protection against discard and Swords to Plowshares.

I haven't been thoroughly testing the deck but I have made the switch to the colorless builds.

I like Tangle Wire as it can clog your opponent's board. It can also be a pseudo-Time Walk.

[Alex Holland]

As much as I want Goblin Welder to be good, if you have no means to abuse it, Welder becomes mediocre.

Cavern of Souls is better protection against permission.

Chalice is better protection against discard and Swords to Plowshares.

I haven't been thoroughly testing the deck but I have made the switch to the colorless builds.

I like Tangle Wire as it can clog your opponent's board. It can also be a pseudo-Time Walk.

i love red control mud.

However for colorless mud maybe storage matrix is interesting. Also untaps monolith for free i think? Also slows down mostly aggro decks..

[kingtk3]

i love red control mud.

However for colorless mud maybe storage matrix is interesting. Also untaps monolith for free i think? Also slows down mostly aggro decks..

Unfortunately Storage matrix doesn't let you untap grim monolith for free.

Reguarding the welder discussion: I really love the card (I've played it countless times in old Vintage) but I agree that it's not optimal in this deck. Many reasons were given, I would only like to stress the fact that it's not synergic with chalice which is the best protection of the deck and that it doesn't advance our gameplan

[TheRedBaron]

Unfortunately Storage matrix doesn't let you untap grim monolith for free.


Tangle Wire would be better than Matrix.

Also, In a control build, Smokestack/TangleWire/Crucible/Thran Dynamo

Karn, Silver Golem could be brutal. As an added bonus, he can kill your opponents moxen and Artifact lands...


I was also thinking of a more Stompy build utilizing:


Blood Moon
Slash Panther
Lodestone Golem
sphere of resistance main deck


Kinda like All-in-Red, but not "all-in" haha... If that makes sense.

[(nameless one)]

i love red control mud.

However for colorless mud maybe storage matrix is interesting. Also untaps monolith for free i think? Also slows down mostly aggro decks..

It doesn't as Storage Matrix does untap permanents, rather it restricts which to untap on your untap phase.

As for the MUD of the future, has anyone tried like a Vintage-Style Terra Nova deck? (utilizes Spheres in full capacity and using Man-Lands like Mishra's Factory and Mutavault as win conditions).

@ Chalice:

The main argument with Chalice was Abrupt Decay. I think if you overload the Abrupt Decay targets (Metalworker, Phyrexian Revoker, Trinisphere/Tangle Wire) then you should be able to develop your game.

[dcosiem]

I've started to read the beginning of the thread, and it seems so colossal, but it has a great wisdom for which I can learn from to improve my strategy of mastering this deck. I've decided to stick forward to the Red Mud build instead of the Brown Stax/Trinisphere/Tangle Wire and Chalice build because it's more fun.

Forgive me if i was ever rude. This is my current build. I feel like it is really solid.

4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Great Furnace
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Mindslaver
1 Staff of Domination
3 Copper Gnomes
1 Batterskull
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Mountain
3 Faithless Looting
2 Voltaic Key
2 Lotus Petal

SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast

I've decided to put back Lotus petal because I can turn 1 Lodestone Golem. : ) This is pretty awesome if you ask me especially against combo decks.

The fact that I wasn't running Faithless Looting was ignorance on my part. I cannot believe I can play Reanimator style in Mud with a play like this:
Turn 1:Drop Great Furnace or a Mountain; play Goblin Welder.
Turn 2:Play a cheap artifact;Play Faithless Looting. Drop a fatty in the graveyard. Cheat it in at any time.

I've decided to play Copper Gnomes again in my deck because it's just another way to cheat in a Big fattie. The more ways I'm able to cheat instead of traditionally casting my cards the better the percentage of my win is.

Note:Having 1 less Lightning Greaves makes my deck vulnerable again to hate. Lightning Greaves is a really good card in this deck especially at 3, but I guess 2 is standard required.

Blood Moon seems good in the side and Red Elemental Blast as well since I'm running 6 mana sources plus 2 lotus petals.

What do you guys think?

[noobslayer]

Running red and opting not for chalice in favor of sensei's top and flooting make Bonfire only that much strong for the deck. Straight combo loses a lot of presence I feel, and the best way to make it stronger is to augment it with more beatdown or more control. Your build seems to opt for more control elements, so take that into account when making card selection strategy.

[bruizar]

On the topic of red, I've put more thought into Rimescale Dragon as a one-off in the place of 1 Karn Liberated. I would always run 2 Karn Liberated's, but if I were to play with a third, I would opt to play Rimescale Dragon over it. Karn is a planeswalker, thus legendary, so ripping 1 Rimescale Dragon and 1 Karn is often better than 2 Karns I think. (You could vindicate, vindicate, play karn vindicate though). The real reason to play Rimescale Dragon in the deck is for the SnT matchup. Rimescale Dragon lets you tap both a Griselbrand and an Emrakul, whereas Phyrexian Metamorph only answers 1 SnT, Rimescale Dragon answers all SnT's and provides a fast clock. The other reason to play Rimescale Dragon is that you can tap out a bunch of creatures against aggro decks like Jund. The card wins on its own and I never really have any troubles getting RR when I'm already built up to 7 mana. It lets you sideboard 1 Rimescale Dragon, which you can substitute Karn to improve the SnT matchup.

Food for thought..
http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Coldsnap/Rimescale_Dragon.jpg

[noobslayer]

What sort of snow-covered supplement are you inserting into your mana base for it?

[Esper3k]

What sort of snow-covered supplement are you inserting into your mana base for it?

Yeah I was about to ask - how many snow-covered mountains are going to have to be played to reliably use it? I'd think around 6ish? That's not even considering how many you'd have to have to actually cast it on a regular basis.

Also, since you'd be playing it just as a one-of, you're not going to see it with any sort of consistency against Show & Tell anyways?

[noobslayer]

Exactly. Cute 1-of's have to provide maximum utility for a very affordable price. Else wise, this archtype needs to focus on redundancy in its card selection. Phyrexian Metamorph is fine as a 1-of because we can play it easily, and it can be used in a wide variety of situations. Without much filter you can't rely on having these nice things all the time.

EDIT: Also for forgemaster builds, in addition to supporting bonfire better, you also have an awesome anti-aggro tool in contagion engine.

[dcosiem]

How good is Steel Hellkite in the Red Mud version? I'm thinking about replacing my one of for another Wurmcoil Engine. I like the idea having a 1 of Wurmcoil, and 1 of Steel Hellkite for awkward situations.