[Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

[kingtk3]

If not removed Steel hellkite is a reusable reset button against which many decks folds to. It flies and kills or, at least, trades with every other creature of the format: I will never play with less then two (in my deck I play 3 hellkites, 1 wurmcoil and 2 batterskulls).

[noobslayer]

Steel Hellkite is definitely worth at least 1-2 Slots in most Mud builds. It's one of the most appealing flyers for us, and as kingtk3 said, its ability to wipe boards is underused but never under appreciated. For a while I was running a 2-1 split of these and moltensteel dragon, but this is just far better in most ways.

[dcosiem]

Yea, he's good. I find that in Rug Delver match-up I rather have as many chances to play wurmcoil engine since he outrights wins the game for oneself against this match-up.

So I began reading all the beginning posts because I thought it be a good idea to see what all of you have said. I got to the part mentioning Trading Post, and I tested in my deck for a 1 of. It seems kind of useless if your playing welder build.

As I find tune my deck, I feel like it is very smooth and consistent knowing what the deck wants to do.

Plan A:Drop a metalworker. Play a fattie.
Plan B:Drop Goblin Welder. Faithless Looting into a fattie.
Plan B2:Wait a turn to discard fattie. Play Goblin Welder. Weld fattie in.
Plan C:Drop a Copper Gnomes, play a fattie next turn.
Plan D:Play a fattie by taping lands.

It's pretty simple and straightfoward.

I don't know how many people have tested Copper Gnomes, but he is a beast. I can play a fattie on turn 2 if I drop 2 sol lands on turn 1 and 2. That is efficient legacy right there. It doesn't get any better than this I think. With the addition of 3 Copper Gnomes to 4 Welder, and 3 Metalworker, this gives me 10 ways to cheat a fattie. Is this deck good or what?

I'm also testing 1 Solemn Simulacrum for an additional land drop since i play 4 mountains and 4 great furnance. Why not add an additional land when he comes into play and use him as a blocker only to draw an additional threat.

I feel really good about this deck. I feel like every card in this deck works on it's own by itself. : )

[Alex Holland]

Fattie isnt a reliable strategy unless that fattie straight wins you the game like griselbrand or emrakul. Well thats my meta atleast..

Id say you should run it like controlling and outpacing at the same time. My 2 eurocents.

[bruizar]

I think I currently have 8 snow-covered mountains and 1 or 2 Mouth of Ronoms in my deck. The reason for this is that basic lands are powerful, and I like Mouth of Ronom as a way to answer creatures. I'm not running that much lands to support my red spells, but it definitely ramps my consistency dodging Wastelands and all, and it helps the firebreathing ability of Moltensteel Dragon. I also run 1 Phyrexian Metamorph, but I'm not sure if that card is too comparable with Rimescale Dragon. I think, if you want to compare Rimescale Dragon to anything, it should be with Karn. Karn is the same converted mana cost, stabilizes the battlefield and is a wincondition in itself too. The biggest problem Karn has (except for not costing only 0 mana), is that he cannot be put into play with Show and Tell. I see Rimescale Dragon, potentially, as a way to have a big, earth-shattering bomb against any deck who's win condition is creatures, and a way to use that bomb against SnT as well. Lingering Souls for example, is no match against Rimescale Dragon. Nor is Griselbrand or Emrakul. It also totally destroys Jund, since Abrupt Decay don't hit it, bloodbraid elf's haste is made irrelevant, all the creatures will just get blocked and tapped, and all that Jund can do is hope for double lightning bolt or something like that.

[dcosiem]

I played in my local Legacy tournament last night. There was only 3 rounds. I went 2-0-1. I played against all legit decks: Dredge, Aggro Loam, & Sneak Attack. I tied with Dredge, but beat the other 2. Goblin Welder + Faithless Looting & Copper Gnome tech is super ridiciulus.

[fogxanic]

I will also try this copper gnomes technology. Against uw control good to drop staff of nin on board. So it should keep drawing more creatures than terminus puts bottom of library. Also shoots jace.

[noobslayer]

Has anyone running the more comboesque build with red tested Reforge the Soul yet? I may be overkill, but supported by SDT and Flooting you can concoct some really brutal plays. And it lets you refill your hand which is something this archtype has always lacked for.

[(nameless one)]

I tried Reforge the Soul before.

Having it in your opening hand sucks and having to topdeck it without a red source sucks. I tried running it in junction with Conch Shell (in place of SDTop) but it seems to be to much work to get its effect.

Also, the symmetrical effect of it giving your opponent a full hand can also be devastating to you.

[dcosiem]

Game report.

Round 1: LED Dredge

I got paired with my friend who I share cards with so seeing him, I didn't want this to happen because we were both playing to win boosters to add to our card collection. We wait 20 minutes then started playing. : o This is the reason why we drew because he just sleeved up his deck and was retinkering his sideboard for the current meta. Yea, I know I'm nice. : / He wins g1 because Breakthrough into dredgers by Putrid Imp is insane combo starter. Eventually, like most LED Dredge decks work, they will have creatures that come into the battlfield. If they have Bridge +Cabal Therapy, then tokens start to come out by the number of Bridges. Eventually, he'll get 7 tokens by turn 4 with an Imp and Narcomemba. I manage to have a Kuldotha out with like a Metalworker. My hand has no relavent cards in the hand to change the state of the battlefield. I end up being 1 turn too slow to activate Kuldotha's ability to save my life because dredge's amazing unfair combo abilities is fast. G2 I'm on the play and I drop a Goblin Welder on my turn. He plays something and pass. On my second turn, I combo out with Looting, and I get like a Wurmcoil Engine and a Batterskull into my Graveyard. I pass, and eventually weld it in at the end of his step. He's able to kill my Wurmcoil Engine with a Nature's claim. I have enough mana to cast about anything. Eventually, we forefeits the match because he has 2 cards in his deck, and I'm like at some ridiculus amout of health due to Batterskull which I weld into the field after Wurmcoil dies. After we finish g2, the time was up.

Round 2:Aggro Loam

This match was absurdly quick. He wins the dice roll and plays Deathrite Shaman on turn 1. I play Welder on my turn 1. Guess what's coming? : ) During his second turn, he attacks with Deathrite Shaman (big mistake), and plays a Dark Confidant then passes. I'm like ok. BOOM My second turn, I draw and play Faithless Looting. I drop a Myr Battlesphere, and like a grim monolith. As I put Myr Battlesphere in the battlefield, I made sure I watch his facial reactions. Indeed, they were priceless (not to be a creep). His eyes lit up like the sun, glissening on the idea, what the fuck just happen I assume. Eventually he plays a goyf, but Myr Battlesphere is such a big creature that he's not going to kill it. I start swinging and eventually he concedes when he's at low life and without a creature to defend himself. Game 2 went my way with a complete total dominance on my skillfully master play. He turn 1's a deathrite shaman. I play a Welder, but this time I don't have a Faithless Looting in my hand. I guess from the last game he thought he better kill it, so he kills it with a Abrupt Decay at the point when I had played a Copper Gnomes in the battlefield. After 1 turn the Copper Gnomes has been out, I activate his ability, and I believe I dropped a Wurmcoil Engine. He was like Fuck. Eventually, he has nothing to deal with it, and I win.

Round 3:Sneak Attack

I played another friend who's pretty good and plays very tight. During g1, he show and tells at some point during the state of me having a Copper Gnomes with a Sensei Divining Top out and with enough mana to activate both abilities. I first respond by topping to make sure I have something I can possibily use. I believe I see a Phyrexian Metamorph, and I put it on the top and activate top's second ability. I decided to activate Copper Gnomes ability and decided to drop a Platnium Emperion just because I can on the stack. In hindsight, I think it was kind of a hasty move, but in any case, I think it probably did me wonders because I probably or hopefully could of made him change his original plan of attack to something else. I show and tell a Phyrexian Metamorph, and he shows and tells a Griselbrand. They both die, and he scoops after this. G2 was mad crazy. I eventually end up winning this because he doesn't have enough counters to stop me from playing my cards after he Through the Breach into a Griselbrand and attacks while activating his ability twice. I begin by playing Lodestone in which he counters, then I play like a Metalworker in which he counters too. I eventually play something in which he doesn't have any more counters for, and I end up taking the win somehow for which I'm unable to remember how.

With the testing so far, I like Copper Gnomes because he is an additional outlet, and perhaps much better than Metalworker in some cases that he's able to drop a big guy or something at any given moment to change the state of the battlefield. I run only 3 because like metal worker, sometimes you get empty hands where you have 2 metal workers in your hand without a threat. With the knowledge of how my deck plays, I depend less on Metal worker and more on Goblin Welder, but I feel like I should depend on Metal Worker more. Adding 4 Faithless Looting, which I have done now after the tournament gives me a very fair chance to deal with many decks because I now have a card draw engine in which I can draw 8 times at any given notice to do something that will allow me to win. This gets me ahead, and I love it. It's like playing blue without the counters. : )

Also, I've decided to take out Steel Hellkite because in my first game agaisnt Dredge I had him out with all the other cards mentioned, and he wasn't enough to keep me alive. If he had only been a Wurmcoil Engine. : / For this reason, he's going to my sideboard. I believe there's nothing really more threatening to us out there in Legacy then ourselves, Ancient Tombs. LOL. Anyways, that's life right?

I hope you guys enjoyed and learned a thing or two. I'll probably end up playing this in the open because I'm very confidant in it's ability to take down any deck. I've also added 3 Wasteland and a crucible of the worlds in my deck to deal with Lands, and I guess use mana denial in my strategy if things are not going my way for some reason.

[RaZe]

As for the MUD of the future, has anyone tried like a Vintage-Style Terra Nova deck? (utilizes Spheres in full capacity and using Man-Lands like Mishra's Factory and Mutavault as win conditions).

I tried this before. It looked like this...

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Buried Ruins

4 Maze of Ith
4 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Mox Diamond

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst

4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire

Noteworthy considerations for this build are obvious for anyone who has played Vintage Stax.

Smokestack
Lodestone Golem
Karn, Silver Golem
Barbarian Ring
Ghost Quarter


I probably overloaded on the anti-creature lands but the biggest weakness of this build is the lack of a real answer to anything that actually gets past your lock.

[Esper3k]

I tried this before. It looked like this...

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Buried Ruins

4 Maze of Ith
4 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Mox Diamond

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst

4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire

Noteworthy considerations for this build are obvious for anyone who has played Vintage Stax.

Smokestack
Lodestone Golem
Karn, Silver Golem
Barbarian Ring
Ghost Quarter


I probably overloaded on the anti-creature lands but the biggest weakness of this build is the lack of a real answer to anything that actually gets past your lock.

Yeah I think in a build like that, you really need Smokestack as you said to deal with things that get past your lock. Lodestone Golem should be great too since it'll give you a fast clock while acting as an additional resistor for your opponents to have to deal with.

[fogxanic]

I tried this before. It looked like this...

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Buried Ruins

4 Maze of Ith
4 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Mox Diamond

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst

4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire

Noteworthy considerations for this build are obvious for anyone who has played Vintage Stax.

Smokestack
Lodestone Golem
Karn, Silver Golem
Barbarian Ring
Ghost Quarter


I probably overloaded on the anti-creature lands but the biggest weakness of this build is the lack of a real answer to anything that actually gets past your lock.

This is much weaker compared to vintage version.

-inferior mana base, no moxes, workshops, academy and mana stones
-thorn of amethyst is weaker because more creature decks in legacy
-legacy also has things that cheat creatures on battlefield, vial, lackey

[bruizar]

I tried this before. It looked like this...

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Buried Ruins

4 Maze of Ith
4 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Mox Diamond

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst

4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire

Noteworthy considerations for this build are obvious for anyone who has played Vintage Stax.

Smokestack
Lodestone Golem
Karn, Silver Golem
Barbarian Ring
Ghost Quarter


I probably overloaded on the anti-creature lands but the biggest weakness of this build is the lack of a real answer to anything that actually gets past your lock.

I once had a deck that was similar but GW with cards like Ensnaring Bridge/Oblivion Ring/Moat/Elephant Grass/Riftstone Portal, 1 Terastodon, 1 Emrakul, Defense of the Heart, Forbidden Orchard and Beast Within. I never really got to test it too much, but the inclusion of Defense of the Heart did allow me to actually have something that simply wins the game, no questions asked.

[RaZe]

This is much weaker compared to vintage version.

-inferior mana base, no moxes, workshops, academy and mana stones
-thorn of amethyst is weaker because more creature decks in legacy
-legacy also has things that cheat creatures on battlefield, vial, lackey

I didn't endorse it to be all that. Oddly enough, the first point isn't the reason the deck isn't good but the other two. I built it under the premise that @namelesss_one mentioned.

@bruizar - How does Eldrazi Spaghetti monsters and ensnaring bridge work together?

What I would really like to do is somehow fit Countryside Crusher as a card advantage/finisher in a Crucible based Stax shell.

[bruizar]

I didn't endorse it to be all that. Oddly enough, the first point isn't the reason the deck isn't good but the other two. I built it under the premise that @namelesss_one mentioned.

@bruizar - How does Eldrazi Spaghetti monsters and ensnaring bridge work together?

What I would really like to do is somehow fit Countryside Crusher as a card advantage/finisher in a Crucible based Stax shell.

Blow it up with Terastodon, since you get to put 2 creatures into play, like Tooth and Nail.

[fogxanic]

I played today at 20 player local tournament and results were 2-2. Match ups were UW rip/helm 2-1, MUD (forgemaster) 2-1, Dredge 1-2, Burn 1-2. I have neved won burn! He got sulfuric vortex out in 2 games I lost. Third game I managed to put chalice 1 and trini out but I had ancient tomb so that burned me too. Metalworker killed 2 times so it doesn't do any good in this match. And third game agaisnt dredge was also hard. He was on play and turn 1 LED + flashbacked faithless looting filled his grave and he took my monolith with cabal therapy. Turn 2 I died. Any1 thinking play faerie macabre or surgical extraction as gravehate? Tormod is too slow :mad:

[dcosiem]

I played today at 20 player local tournament and results were 2-2. Match ups were UW rip/helm 2-1, MUD (forgemaster) 2-1, Dredge 1-2, Burn 1-2. I have neved won burn! He got sulfuric vortex out in 2 games I lost. Third game I managed to put chalice 1 and trini out but I had ancient tomb so that burned me too. Metalworker killed 2 times so it doesn't do any good in this match. And third game agaisnt dredge was also hard. He was on play and turn 1 LED + flashbacked faithless looting filled his grave and he took my monolith with cabal therapy. Turn 2 I died. Any1 thinking play faerie macabre or surgical extraction as gravehate? Tormod is too slow :mad:

Wow, thank you for the experience. I'll definitely play Surgical Extraction or faerie macabre to stop this. If you feel that crypt is too slow then relick is just as slow then. Thank God, I caught this mistake here, then experiencing it at an SCG open.

[noobslayer]

@ dcosiem. What cards are really making an impact in your list? What targets do you like to tutor for and what are you finding that you want to grab less often? For the most part, not as many people have been running welder or even forgemaster, so it's nice to have someone attending events with the variation and get their insight.

[wmagzoo7]

As someone who has extensively (and successfully) played Terra Nova in Vintage, I can say that I would not recommend playing the deck in Legacy. The reasons being that the deck is predicated upon the idea that it is almost always right to play a Sphere of Resistance effect if possible because your lands are significantly better than your opponents. However, without Mishra's Workshop, Tolarian Academy, Moxen, Sol Ring and Mana Crypt this strategy is nigh impossible to execute as you can't really operate under multiple Spheres. However, here is a shot at the deck for Legacy.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
4 Crystal Vein

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Trinisphere
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Dismember
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sculpting Steel

I am hesitant to include Crucible of Worlds because it really does not fit into the Vintage version which wants to literally cast a Sphere effect if possible each turn, but it may be a necessary evil because of City of Traitors and Mox Diamond as well as Crystal Vein which you kind of need. One thing that I would consider adding to the deck potentially is Grim Monolith with Voltaic Key to generate some mana, but I think it would be clunky, especially since there are no other uses in the deck for Voltaic Key.

[kingtk3]

...
Any1 thinking play faerie macabre or surgical extraction as gravehate? Tormod is too slow :mad:

Surgical extraction isnearly useless against dredge because it removes only 1 card: if they have another dredger surgical is not gonna stop them.
Faerie macabre is better, it can buy you time but it's not definitive like a Tormod's Crypt.

I personally use a mix of anti-grave cards like Tormod's, Grafdigger's Cage and Faerie. This also helps against cabal therapy since they have more than one card to name.

[fogxanic]

Wow, thank you for the experience. I'll definitely play Surgical Extraction or faerie macabre to stop this. If you feel that crypt is too slow then relick is just as slow then. Thank God, I caught this mistake here, then experiencing it at an SCG open.

No problems with artifact gravehate if you are on play. Like g2 against dredge first turn I played a. tomb, monolith, voltaic. Made 4 mana then dynamo, tormod, 3sphere. Turn 2 batterskull and game was over. Im gonna try faerie macabres because they work through locks.

[dcosiem]

No problems with artifact gravehate if you are on play. Like g2 against dredge first turn I played a. tomb, monolith, voltaic. Made 4 mana then dynamo, tormod, 3sphere. Turn 2 batterskull and game was over. Im gonna try faerie macabres because they work through locks.

Yea, it's no problem if we're on the play, but what if we aren't? What if my opponent did what he did against you? I think I rather have Surgical extraction because once he gets Narcomembas and Shadow dudes out on the battlefield, I can surgical extract Bridges in Respond to Narcomebea triggers.


@ dcosiem. What cards are really making an impact in your list? What targets do you like to tutor for and what are you finding that you want to grab less often? For the most part, not as many people have been running welder or even forgemaster, so it's nice to have someone attending events with the variation and get their insight.

The cards that make an impact for my list are usually the core in which we cheat big artifact spells. If I'm able to land any of them on the battlefield as well as surviving to the turn that they do not have summoning sickness, my win rate is very significantly high. There is one slight marginal problem to my deck construction: It isn't quite as consistent in landing a big fattie or an impact artifact spell because I run a lot of 1 ofs and 2 ofs, or I have more cheating spells that doesn't end up doing anything. To smooth out this inconsistency, I have Faithless Looting. It helps give me card advantage to help me remove cards that are not relevant at this particular situation, and it also adds targets for Welder if I have one out. Essentially, I hope whatever I put into the graveyard, I'll cheat in the battlefield to make my situation more favorable for me to win. In addition, if i have Sensei's Diving top, I can smooth out what I draw and what I throw away in graveyard. For example, I played a game against EsperBlade with my brother, and it seems like we're very favorable to win because Esperblade can't do anything if Goblin Welder is active, protected with Lightning Greeves. I essentially locked him out of the game with Mindslaver lock and made him attack with his small tempo creatures against my Wurmcoil, Platnium Emperion and Sundering Titan.

Every choice of tutor target is different in every situation against every deck. It really depends on the board situation. If I'm trying to stay alive or survive, I need a life gainer. This is the case most of the time. Once it resolves though, it's very hard my opponent to deal with such a powerful spell unless they have some type of reset or board wipe.

I haven't played against any u/w helm/miracle control match-ups yet, but I think I'll do pretty good if I have a nut hand, and he doesn't somehow have any removal in his. Do you have any idea how this match goes?

[Esper3k]

If you're going to use yard hate, I prefer Crypt & Macabre myself.

Grafdiggers/Surgical/Relic all are CMC 1. Chalice @ 1 is actually a pretty strong play for us against Dredge (especially if we're on the play) since it shuts off many of their enablers (Faithless Looting, Putrid Imp, Breakthrough for 0, Tireless Tribe, etc). Given that Chalice @ 1 is going to be a strong play for us, it doesn't make sense for us to play cards that also get hosed by it.

[Fry]

I play a full set of Chalice in my main board and 3 Thorn of Amethyst (over Trinisphere, another turn 1 hate without the need for Grim Monolith). Which slows down just about anything with minimal negatve side effects. I don't really bother with Grave hate anymore, against Dredge I do play a Crawlspace (recent replaced the Silent Arbiter), it only allows two attackers/blockers which really helps slow down Dredge and a handful of other decks. I play the Kuldotha Forgemaster combo build and sacrificng a creature to the Forgemaster is a great way to be rid of pesky Bridges. I also play an Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard since the deck has the ability to just dump its hand with Metalworker, sol lands, and Monolith. The Ensnaring Bridge consistently stops anything with power 3 or more in my build. Also for the dredge match up I have 3 Phyrexian Revokers in my side, they serve the purpose of early damage/blockers, but they mainly serve the purpose of shutting down LED and dredge enablers such as Putrid Imp. Dredge is much more prevalent than Reanimator, but some of the side mentioned is valid against that deck including the second Phyrexian Metamorph (there is one in the main) and Duplicant. The main taxers (Thorn and Lodestone Golem) and hate (Chalice) slow down the Reanimator match up as well. I personally don't believe that we specifically need to have dedicated grave hate, but I can see the merit of having it.

[fogxanic]

I play a full set of Chalice in my main board and 3 Thorn of Amethyst (over Trinisphere, another turn 1 hate without the need for Grim Monolith). Which slows down just about anything with minimal negatve side effects. I don't really bother with Grave hate anymore, against Dredge I do play a Crawlspace (recent replaced the Silent Arbiter), it only allows two attackers/blockers which really helps slow down Dredge and a handful of other decks. I play the Kuldotha Forgemaster combo build and sacrificng a creature to the Forgemaster is a great way to be rid of pesky Bridges. I also play an Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard since the deck has the ability to just dump its hand with Metalworker, sol lands, and Monolith. The Ensnaring Bridge consistently stops anything with power 3 or more in my build. Also for the dredge match up I have 3 Phyrexian Revokers in my side, they serve the purpose of early damage/blockers, but they mainly serve the purpose of shutting down LED and dredge enablers such as Putrid Imp. Dredge is much more prevalent than Reanimator, but some of the side mentioned is valid against that deck including the second Phyrexian Metamorph (there is one in the main) and Duplicant. The main taxers (Thorn and Lodestone Golem) and hate (Chalice) slow down the Reanimator match up as well. I personally don't believe that we specifically need to have dedicated grave hate, but I can see the merit of having it.

Well my opponent has pretty weird dredge using Flayer of the Hatebound as killing. It hits usually alone 9 dmg + zombie tokens witch coming battlefield for using cabal therapy or dread return to narcomoebas or ichorids. Attack is not needed with that technic but sure it slows a bit of he can't attack.

[Esper3k]

@Fry: Yeah I don't pack any dedicated yard hate either. My combo plan is pretty much the same regardless of what type they're playing (play a bunch of resisters until they can't play MTG anymore).

@Fogxanic: I actually do really like the Flayer lists of Dredge just because as you point out, it gives them a way to kill you without using the attack step. I would think that Dread Return should be pretty difficult for them to play though if you're playing resisters and attacking their mana base.

[Loxmatii]

simple question:

i saw platinum emperion in some mud stompy lists. Why people run them? i thought platinum angel better because cost 1 less mana to cast. i am wrong? explain me, plz

[Esper3k]

simple question:

i saw platinum emperion in some mud stompy lists. Why people run them? i thought platinum angel better because cost 1 less mana to cast. i am wrong? explain me, plz

Harder to kill (especially by the Burn decks), faster clock.

Also in a corner case, a deck can knock you down into negatives, then bounce/deal with Angel then you die. They have to do things the other way around with Emperion out (ie, they have to deal with the Emperion before they can even begin to touch your life total).

[whatwas]

This is the sideboard for my forgemaster deck. I'll admit it hasn't been brought to a major event yet but the store I go to has a lot of dedicated legacy players with different deck walking through to door every week. I still have a hard time against dredge even though the board I carry has a lot of hate for them.
2 tormods crypt
2 surgical extraction
1 grafdiggers cage
1 sundering Titan(1 main)
1 crucible of worlds(1 main)
1 all is dust (1 main)
3 phyrexian revoker
1 trinisphere (2 main)
2 ratchet bomb
1 spine of ish sah

[Fry]

simple question:

i saw platinum emperion in some mud stompy lists. Why people run them? i thought platinum angel better because cost 1 less mana to cast. i am wrong? explain me, plz

The main reason why I play the Emperion over the Angel is that the Emperion is twice as big. It's an 8/8 and that requires at least two burn spells(Fireblast), typically three. The Angel is easier to destroy. Also the Emperion allows us to use Ancient Tomb to our hearts content since it won't hurt us with Emperion and we still feel the pain with Angel, so in that aspect we're helping them if we don't pay attention to our life totals and they kill the Angel.

Also putting a Lightning Greaves on an Emperion pretty much says to dredge and burn (more than other decks anyway), "Hey, yeah, I'm just going to sit here looking pretty and get you killed when I'm good and ready."

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

For now this my casual MUD deck. I have many of these cards already and it doesn't cost me much to finish this the way it is presented, although I don't have Wasteland or Rishadan Port. I think I would go with Rishadan Port and Dust Bowl, for the lack of space. I'd cut the Sheltered Valley, 1 Dust Bowl, 1 Mishra's Factory, for 3 Ports. I have no space for Wasteland. I have no way to recur it either. So I don't really care about it. Sheltered Valley could as easily be a lone Darksteel Citadel or something, I know, but against Burn (one of my worst matchups, I take it?) it can steal a whole turn. It also gives me a bit of tempo if they waste one of my other lands early. While I'm ramping and doing stuff it gives me a drop or 3 of life. Comes into play untapped. Gives me a colorless. I see no reason not to play 1 for lack of much else. And I want a 21 land count because of Wasteland.

Than Dynamo is essential. I see some lists without it and I think they are crazy. I also think Razormane Masticore is essential, since it does -everything- in this deck, by itself. Same could be said for Steel Hellkite. 4 are essential always. Does everything. Hall Of The Bandit Lord is kind of useless I guess, but can steal a turn for a win, and I have multiple chances to abuse that. Trinisphere is useless main deck. Its a sideboard card. Don't play it main. I don't see me making many changes to this so I thought I'd post it for criticism. Don't criticize me on the lands as already mentioned I know I lack the Ports.

LANDS,

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Dust Bowl
3 Crystal Vein
1 Hall of The Bandit Lord
1 Buried Ruin
1 Sheltered Valley


STUFF

3 Thran Dynamo
4 Metalworker
4 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Staff Of Nin
2 Spine Of Ish Sah


BEATS

4 Steel Hellkite
4 Razormane Masticore
2 Sundering Titan
1 Myr Battlesphere
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Artisan Of Kozilek

[Zombie]

Something in my brain keeps insisting that the list should contain this line:
1 Crucible of Worlds
No clue as to why, maybe my brain is addicted : /

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

Something in my brain keeps insisting that the list should contain this line:
1 Crucible of Worlds
No clue as to why, maybe my brain is addicted : /

I agree. Recurs City Of Traitors and other nonbasics. let alone Wasteland. also fuels dust bowl.

but I don't own that card myself...

[Fry]

I personally don't like the idea of playing Key with Chalice. I'm not saying it's a bad thing per se, but it can dead cards in your hand, and I don't like that.
I agree with the needs 1 Crucible for the aforemention reasons.
I also love the Spine, but think that it really should have Forgemaster to abuse with it.
Trinishpere isn't in my main anymore, they've been replaced by Thorn of Amethyst since it is another turn one hate/tax card without the need for Monolith.
I use 4 Ancient Tomb, 4 Cavern of Souls, 4 City of Traitors, 4 Darksteel Citadel, and 4 Wasteland as my mana base. I do agree that Port is good, I'd just rather be able to make it so my Contruct creatures can't be countered (Metalworker and Forgemaster), or my Golems (Sundering Titan, Lodestone, Platinum Emperion) and it can help mitigate life loss from my Phyrexian Metamorph (1 main, 1 side) by naming Shapeshifter (which also works for Duplicant from the side)
For if my things do get countered I have a one of Trading Post that has saved me several times by gaining life and enables some pretty nasty shenanegains.

[Esper3k]

Another robot to consider is Wurmcoil Engine. That thing singlehandedly shuts down aggro decks like Jund without the card disadvantage that something like Razormane Masticore gives you. The lifelink on the massive body makes it almost impossible to race (and helps offset damage from Ancient Tombs).

I don't mind Key with Chalice because while it does super suck when you draw key when you have Chalice @ 1 out, Key just enables too many busted things to cut, imo. Plus if you draw key when you have Chalice @ 1 out... that means you have Chalice @ 1 out :)

[TheRedBaron]

I personally don't like the idea of playing Key with Chalice. I'm not saying it's a bad thing per se, but it can dead cards in your hand, and I don't like that.
I agree with the needs 1 Crucible for the aforemention reasons.
I also love the Spine, but think that it really should have Forgemaster to abuse with it.
Trinishpere isn't in my main anymore, they've been replaced by Thorn of Amethyst since it is another turn one hate/tax card without the need for Monolith.
I use 4 Ancient Tomb, 4 Cavern of Souls, 4 City of Traitors, 4 Darksteel Citadel, and 4 Wasteland as my mana base. I do agree that Port is good, I'd just rather be able to make it so my Contruct creatures can't be countered (Metalworker and Forgemaster), or my Golems (Sundering Titan, Lodestone, Platinum Emperion) and it can help mitigate life loss from my Phyrexian Metamorph (1 main, 1 side) by naming Shapeshifter (which also works for Duplicant from the side)
For if my things do get countered I have a one of Trading Post that has saved me several times by gaining life and enables some pretty nasty shenanegains.


Well, with metalworker, key really isn't that dead of a draw. Sometimes you need to keep artifacts in hand for metalworker so, chalice @1 is ok with key most of time. IMO key is 2nd best card in deck.

[whatwas]

Yesterday at my local tournament I went 2:2 losing to stoneblade and hivemind. I'm here to talk about hivemind, game one he went off turn 2 and then game two he lntuitions show and tell, and plays show and tell, I put in forgemaster and he, emrakul then I play a few artifacts and pass, he declared attack phase and I break forgemaster getting phyrexian metamorph targeting the emrakul and save me two more turns before he plays hivemind and pact of nogation. Besides trinisphere, what else could help in this match?

[BlackFlameAshura]

Yesterday at my local tournament I went 2:2 losing to stoneblade and hivemind. I'm here to talk about hivemind, game one he went off turn 2 and then game two he lntuitions show and tell, and plays show and tell, I put in forgemaster and he, emrakul then I play a few artifacts and pass, he declared attack phase and I break forgemaster getting phyrexian metamorph targeting the emrakul and save me two more turns before he plays hivemind and pact of nogation. Besides trinisphere, what else could help in this match?

The game one between you and me was the grindiest thing I've ever played. Drawing 3 Moms and bringing you down to one between those and your Ancient Tombs...and still managing to lose is just brilliant stuff.

[whatwas]

The game one between you and me was the grindiest thing I've ever played. Drawing 3 Moms and bringing you down to one between those and your Ancient Tombs...and still managing to lose is just brilliant stuff.

Karn saved the day big time. Its the first time I got to play him ever. Usually he gets answered really early. I pulled out my two silver bullets that match. :tongue:

[BlackFlameAshura]

Karn AND Wasteland lock became absolutely brutal but was still a tight match. It was really anyone's game for awhile there.

[whatwas]

Hivemind aside, I feel mud is a good choice for the meta atm, all these combo decks are asking for main deck chalice at :0: and trinisphere so badly right now. I hope to see it in top eights again soon. Miracles has almost nothing on us either so get to it ppl! FL has no legacy in the SCG open this month or else I'd bring the hate myself :wink:

[Fry]

I will agree that Key has great potential with Metalworker, but I play a Staff of Domination and that can just win you on the spot with 3 artifacts in hand, which is made easier since I play 2 Staff of Nin that kills Clique, Mom, Thalia, unflipped Delvers, Noble Hierarchs and several other 1 toughness creatures I'm not thinking of (as I just think of Bob) with just one in play.

[(nameless one)]

I like this list a lot. It's similar to my current build now:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=54151

[whatwas]

I like this list a lot. It's similar to my current build now:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=54151

Keys is fine in or out IMO, I'd rather run thran dynamo and everflowing chalice over them because they can be swordsed+ are good on they're own... I knew mud would make a come back. Didn't think it would be last night, though lol. I feel like that list from DC should have ran emperion main, and maybe a phyrexian metamorph. Other than blightsteel the only other card I ticker for with forgemaster are them.

[lukatron2]

Yesterday I played in a 12-14 person tournament and got first (went 4-0). First tournament I've played in a few years.

Round one vs 12 post-natural order 2-0
G1: He had a deathrite shaman. I have a iffy hand with with lightning greeves, forgemaster and a few other things. Next turn green sun's zenith for Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary. Gets out a primeval titan and gains a bunch of life. He's at 24. Het gets me down a bit, but end of his turn I fetch for Blightsteel Colossus and he's forced to block everything. Next turn I win with poison counters.
G2: Starts out similar to game 1. He gets out a titan again. I phyrexian revoker Deathrite Shaman. I pull off a battlesphere and he fetches a Maze of Ith. Luckily I have lightning greeves. He blocks my dude while still taking 4 from tapped tokens. I gets rid of greeves, but 4 direct damage from tapping tokens and swinging is enough to finish him off.

Round two vs burn 2-0
G1: he burns me down with spells, goblin guide, and Keldon Marauders. I chalice of the void for 1, drop a Lodestone golem, wait one more turn for his Marauder to die, then smash.
G2: I side in 4 trinisphere and phyrexian metamorph. He swings with Goblin Guide giving me a city of traitors. I turn two Trini, turn 3 Lodestone Golem, Metamorph copying golem. Next turn I lay another metamorph targeting Lodestone golem. He Scoops

fter my match I chill out, then go to watch a game that was still going on. I lent out my Charbelcher deck to this cool cat that decided to play legacy that day. So I went to go watch the guy play and he's playing against tin fins. Tin fins gets the victory in the third game.

Round three vs Tezzerat control (UB)
G1: I get an early Chalice set for 1, and pound him with some creature(s) (I don't remember)
G2: I get an early metalworker and mindslaver him. I take his turn, -4 his tezzeret, cast something, then force of will pitching Baleful Strix. Ping him for one with his Dimir Signet. It feels like I'm in a pretty great position here but then... I'm not drawing any threats of my own. He thirsts for knowledge and gets another tezzeret online, and animates his Signet into a big 5/5. He casts a wurmcoil engine, and things aren't looking good for me. I finally find a forgemaster and get a blightsteel online, keeping my forgemaster on the field. I attack, kill his tez, force him to block with his Wurmcoil engine. He gets two tokens, and casts another wurmcoil engine. By that time I'm too far ahead and kill him with poison counters.


Dude that was playing tin fins was watching the end of our match to see what I was playing.

Round 4 vs tinfins (finals)
We both know what eachother is playing at this point.
G1: I draw a hand with too many mana sources, and mulligan down to 6 with a turn 1 chalice for 1. Pretty much shuts him down game 1 and he either scoops or I beat him down with some dudes (don't remember).
G2: Here's where I made a mistake. I side in 2 phyrexian Metamorph, spine of ish sah, and a trinisphere, as well as 3 tormod's crypt. He t1 duresses my crypt, and I don't really draw anything. He unleashes grizzlebrand and asks me if I want him to go through the combo. I say yes and commence learning (I've never actually played against this deck and seen how it plays out the combo exactly). He draws a bunch of cards then fetches children. Gains life and kills me with Emrakul.
G3: I realize half my sideboarding was super silly. Once he gets the combo it's game over. I side out 1 spine of ish sah and 2 phyrexian metamorph. Side in the other three trinisphere (running 4 at this point). We both mull down to 6, then he mulls to 5. I keep a hand with a turn two trinisphere and hope he doesn't combo out turn one. I lay a land and pass the turn. He plays a land, then casts Ponder. I'm super relieved. Turn two I cast Trinisphere, it resolves aka timewalk para mi. Turn two he drops a land and passes the turn. I don't remember exactly how the rest of the game played out. I think I beat him with a lodestone golem or two, maybe platinum empirion.

Decklist:

Lands: 22
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 City of traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Buried Ruin

Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the void
3 Lightning greaves
1 Spine of ish sah
1 Staff of nin
1 Mindslaver
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Phyrexian revoker
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum empirion
1 Blightsteel colossus
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

SB:
4 Trinisphere
2 Rachet Bomb
1 Contagion Engine
2 All is Dust
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Tormod's Crypt


I should have taken better notes. Maybe next time. Some things I observed and random thoughts I have:
1.) I almost always sided out phyrexian revoker. It's such a solid card but didn't really help me out much the whole day.
2.)Lightning greaves + Kuldotha Forgemaster + Blightsteel colossus was MVP today. There were a few games where I would have lost if I didn't have Blightsteel Colossus with lightning greaves. The haste and the shroud can get you out of almost anything. I don't think I'd consider running anything less than 3 greaves. Greaves also helped me out a lot with plays like Turn one lightning greaves, turn two metalworker into business. It helped forgemaster speed up a turn fetching me the utility I needed instantly.
3.) I've heard a lot of people say that buried ruin wasn't useful for them, but it helped me out a few times.
4.) Mindslaver is good, but without goblin welder or a thread on the field, it isn't as spectacular a topdeck as one might think.


Other things I want to discuss:

I see many lists running 4 Goblin welder, 3 Voltaic Key and and 4 chalice of the void. Doesn't seem really good, but apparently it works:
Ramario Neto
4th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 3/17/2013
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=54151

What's the logic, and how do you play around your own Chalice? If you have a hand with turn one chalice, or turn one welder or key, do you play the welder or the key first, then turn 2-3 chalice? I would want to go for the timewalk... If you have an early challice at 1, then 7 of your cards are dead later on, unless you blow your own chalice up.
I want to try running 3 voltaic keys and possibly try a welder list, but I'm not sure if I want to run Chalice with welder and key. If I were to run welder and key, I'd consider replacing chalice for trinisphere. Still to be tested, but I really want to know how people play around their own chalice.
I also want to know why/how Thran dynamo works so well. I mean yea it produces mana with volatic key, but does it ever just slow you down?
Anyhow, I love this deck.

[Undomian]

What's the logic, and how do you play around your own Chalice? If you have a hand with turn one chalice, or turn one welder or key, do you play the welder or the key first, then turn 2-3 chalice? I would want to go for the timewalk... If you have an early challice at 1, then 7 of your cards are dead later on, unless you blow your own chalice up.

Cavern on Goblin pushes it through, and often times there are instances where you can weld away a Chalice on 1 when your opponent is unable to take advantage of the opening, play a Key, then play a dead Chalice sitting in your hand.

[Ecstatic_Conch]

I'm curious with how much success people have had (if any) with the 12 post version of the deck. Do you run any cards to support the 12 post or just the lands? Another alternative to 12 post could be urzatron, but while it's good enough for modern, it might not be that great in legacy. Has anyone tested urzatron? It seems like we're playing colorless lands anyway, so on the off chance you get it assembled in a game it could be a blow out. The only downside I see to this is that you can't use the artifact lands with welder or forgemaster. This pretty much narrows down what you can play to stompy. You could commit slots for things like expedition map to increase consistency. However, with chalice often coming down for 1 I'm not sure if expedition map is worth the trouble. I'm currently trying a 12 post list like this:

4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Mox Opal
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Staff of Nin
4 Expedition Map

SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 All Is Dust
SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph

The sideboard could probably use some work, there's currently no way to get rid of ensnaring bridge... it's a holdover from when I played forgemaster. I could use something else for the show and tell matchup, as that's a big thing in my meta.

[lilevo]

Hi, this is my first time posting on the forum.

I was playing the MUD list that finished 4th this last weekend. I honestly built the deck on sat afternoon after the Legacy challenge, but that's not say that I didn't know what I was going to play, I read up on the deck and looked at some lists online to get an idea.

Here is what I got from playing the deck on Sunday. First my sideboard wasn't very good relic of progenitus should had been Tormod's Crypt; also mindslaver, crucible of worlds and wurmcoil engines should have been something else. I liked the main deck a lot except for the 3 lodestone golems, they didn't really do anything the whole day and got sided out every game, I almost feel like a mix of mox opal, staff of nin and a thran dynamo would have been better.

Chalice was amazing and there were only a few times when a key would get stuck in my hand not able to casting it and the welder like it was mentioned you just cast with a cavern of souls. if there is some interest I can try to come up with a tournament report.

[Esper3k]

Hi, this is my first time posting on the forum.

I was playing the MUD list that finished 4th this last weekend. I honestly built the deck on sat afternoon after the Legacy challenge, but that's not say that I didn't know what I was going to play, I read up on the deck and looked at some lists online to get an idea.

Here is what I got from playing the deck on Sunday. First my sideboard wasn't very good relic of progenitus should had been Tormod's Crypt; also mindslaver, crucible of worlds and wurmcoil engines should have been something else. I liked the main deck a lot except for the 3 lodestone golems, they didn't really do anything the whole day and got sided out every game, I almost feel like a mix of mox opal, staff of nin and a thran dynamo would have been better.

Chalice was amazing and there were only a few times when a key would get stuck in my hand not able to casting it and the welder like it was mentioned you just cast with a cavern of souls. if there is some interest I can try to come up with a tournament report.

Congrats on your finish and I'd be interested in reading a tournament report.

[Mr. Froggy]

I've been wanting to build this deck for a while now, as it seems to be an awesome choice for the current meta.

I have a really random question though, what does MUD stand for? :P

[Esper3k]

Artifacts are brown...

What color is MUD? :)

[Mr. Froggy]

I thought about that :P

Its because of the capitals that I was confused. :)

[Esper3k]

I thought about that :P

Its because of the capitals that I was confused. :)

Yeah as far as I know, the caps don't stand for any acronym, heh.

Also, given the naming conventions for Legacy decks, we should come up with something more creative for the red lists. Something like Bloody Stool would be awesome.

[bruizar]

Yeah as far as I know, the caps don't stand for any acronym, heh.

Also, given the naming conventions for Legacy decks, we should come up with something more creative for the red lists. Something like Bloody Stool would be awesome.

As far as I know it stands for Metalworker Ultimate Domination or something to that extent. Also, mud is brown. As for Red Mud? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_mud .. Toxic, metal based, wasting away lands, yeah those are all concepts that we like to play with :D

[fogxanic]

Hi, this is my first time posting on the forum.

I was playing the MUD list that finished 4th this last weekend. I honestly built the deck on sat afternoon after the Legacy challenge, but that's not say that I didn't know what I was going to play, I read up on the deck and looked at some lists online to get an idea.

Here is what I got from playing the deck on Sunday. First my sideboard wasn't very good relic of progenitus should had been Tormod's Crypt; also mindslaver, crucible of worlds and wurmcoil engines should have been something else. I liked the main deck a lot except for the 3 lodestone golems, they didn't really do anything the whole day and got sided out every game, I almost feel like a mix of mox opal, staff of nin and a thran dynamo would have been better.

Chalice was amazing and there were only a few times when a key would get stuck in my hand not able to casting it and the welder like it was mentioned you just cast with a cavern of souls. if there is some interest I can try to come up with a tournament report.

I don't know how you play but I think Lodestone is one of the best cards in deck. Sometimes T1 Sol land, monolith, key and lodestone. T2 other lodestone/metamorph or something bigger. Its usually win if opponent can't remove golem at turn 3. But staffs also work, once I had at T4 3 staff of nin's onboard against maverick :smile:

[lukatron2]

Hi, this is my first time posting on the forum.

I was playing the MUD list that finished 4th this last weekend. I honestly built the deck on sat afternoon after the Legacy challenge, but that's not say that I didn't know what I was going to play, I read up on the deck and looked at some lists online to get an idea.

Here is what I got from playing the deck on Sunday. First my sideboard wasn't very good relic of progenitus should had been Tormod's Crypt; also mindslaver, crucible of worlds and wurmcoil engines should have been something else. I liked the main deck a lot except for the 3 lodestone golems, they didn't really do anything the whole day and got sided out every game, I almost feel like a mix of mox opal, staff of nin and a thran dynamo would have been better.

Chalice was amazing and there were only a few times when a key would get stuck in my hand not able to casting it and the welder like it was mentioned you just cast with a cavern of souls. if there is some interest I can try to come up with a tournament report.

I would also be interested in a report. Hearing you say that Lodestone Golem wasn't good was super weird. It's one of those cards that's just wins the game against combo and is really solid against most decks. What was so bad about it? I'm thinking you never got a turn two Golem? It's not very uncommon and it can steal games. Anyhow, let's hear that report! p.s. congrats!

[(nameless one)]

I would love to read the report as well.

Congratulations on finishing on the money Romario.

How was Staff of Domination? Would you have considered Tangle Wire?

Why the miser Mox Diamond? Why not Lotus Petal? How was yor land count? Would you have switched Darksteel Citadel with another utility land (Mishra's Factory, Rishadan Port, Crystal Veins)?

I'm pausing the development of Parfait (I'm going nowhere with that deck), I'll try to focus on this deck as it is in a good meta position. That said, expect updates on the primer.

[bruizar]

I'd just like to say a nice word to all of you who have been ambassadors for the deck. It's really nice to know that the deck is in a good meta right now, and I feel that the collective discussions in this thread have greatly increased our knowledge of what the deck can do and how diverse the builds can be.

[lilevo]

I am not super experienced with the deck but I do realize that you can take this strategy to many different paths, IMHO I think Golem would really shine if I went more in the "prison" strategy but then I would be playing tangled wire, ports, more trinisphere, etc. In the tournament on Sunday it would get swords to plowshares on turn 2, if I had a chalice on 1 then I would just rather have a forgemaster in play rather than the Golem.

I am going to try to make a report with the most important parts that I can remember.

Round 1 - Esper StoneBlade

Game 1 - He curved out perfectly starting with a thoughtseize, going into stoneforge mystic, countered the chalice and sworded my golem, finished it off by playing a Clique.

Game 2 - I resolved a chalice for 1 on turn 1, followed up with trinisphere, eventually played a forgemaster and won with a Sundering Titan.

Game 3 - It was very similar to game 2, except I didn't have trinisphere, but I had welder, Titan finished off the game again.

Round 2 - Goblins

Game 1 - It wasn't much of a match, t1 lackey, goblins, more goblins, scoop.

Game 2 - I got a Steel Hellkite in play with metalworker and equiped it with boots, with voltaic key I was able to swing and destroy his creatures and still had a blocker.

Game 3 - I kept a very sketchy hand I had a ancient tomb, mox, land, metalworker, trinisphere and two other cards, I thought the hand was ok then he proceeded to mulligan to 4 and the hand was great, he cast a vial on t1 I cast a trinisphere, Wurmcoil ended that game quickly.

then the rounds kinda mashed together I played against a few Deathrie Shaman StoneBlade decks, I sided out Golems and brought in Revokers and Ratchet Bombs, resolving a chalice on 1 is very key in this match up and it doesn't even need to be on turn one, if I had a revoker in the opening hand I would just name Stoneforge mystic if it was late game I would just name JTMS, overall this is an easy matchup.

U/W Helm Combo, which was my only loss in the swiss, again revokers are key in this match up along with chalice on 1, but to be honest I would have to play a few more games against this type of deck to figure out how to beat it.

The only two other decks I played against was a Show and Tell/Omniscience deck, game 1 he cast a burning wish to grab a show and tell, cast on the following turn into omniscience, emrakul...; game 2 I revolved a trinisphere and that game me enough time to win with a sundering titan. Game 3 we both mulligan and again trinisphere slowed him down a lot, then a chalice on 1 stopped him from playing all his cantrips.

the last deck I played against in the swiss was Kenny Castor's RUG Delver which obviously you want to resolve a chalice or trinisphere as soon as you can, you can see the match online, it was a weird match I mulliganed on game 1 and drew nothing, games 2 and 3 he mulliganed and it was still able to stay in the game so I can definitely say that it's not an easy match up pre-board.

Top 8

Again a deathrite shaman EsperBlade deck, I played the same strategy golems out revokers and ratchet bombs in.

Top 4

U/W/R Delver

Chalice on 1 can probably win this game almost by itself but I was never able to resolve one and he literally drew all the answers.


Sorry if the report is not very detailed but I played most of my matches against the same Deathrite EsperBlade deck. This was my first time playing this deck in a large tournament and in all honesty this deck is great against all the fair decks.

[bruizar]

I can see how Lodestone Golem isn't quiet strong enough in a meta full of lightning bolts and swords to plowshares. It's not quiet resilient unless you can protect or pump it. It really depends on the type of strategy you are pursueing. If your plan is to combo out with forgemaster, that 5 damage doesn't really matter. If your plan is to beat down with guys, then lodestone golem provides a lot of damage for a reasonable price.

EDIT:

I'm currently working on a red/white version to try out cards like Boros Reckoner and Rest in Piece.

[Mr. Froggy]

I was at my LGS yesterday talking with friends when I went to look at the card display. Would Eye of Ugin be of any help to give the deck some library manipulation?

I'm still in the building phase of the deck though, I have yet to try it out.

[lukatron2]

I was at my LGS yesterday talking with friends when I went to look at the card display. Would Eye of Ugin be of any help to give the deck some library manipulation?

I'm still in the building phase of the deck though, I have yet to try it out.

On one hand we don't run any Eldrazi spells because they are not artifacts, and would hinder metalworker a lot. So the first effect of the land is useless. It's also a wasteland target which makes it easy to get rid of. for 7 colorless it lets us fetch any creature in the deck. We have 4 Kuldotha Forgemaster which gets any creature in our deck onto the field at instant speed; el master is pretty much the closest thing to Tinker we have in Legacy. anyhow, it seems kinda bad to me but who knows! Test it out and let us know how it goes.

[dcosiem]

Does anyone know how to beat Show and Tell with this deck? How do you beat like an Omniscience when you don't have a Trinisphere or Lodestone Golem out?

[Lemnear]

Does anyone know how to beat Show and Tell with this deck? How do you beat like an Omniscience when you don't have a Trinisphere or Lodestone Golem out?

Trying to mull into those next game? Seriously, you are asking for a Solution after you are already dead...

[lukatron2]

Does anyone know how to beat Show and Tell with this deck? How do you beat like an Omniscience when you don't have a Trinisphere or Lodestone Golem out?

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 chalice
4 lodestone golem

for tempo, cross fingers and hope for a good hand?

[dcosiem]

Yea, that's the only way I figured this deck can beat Show and Tell. I feel like Brown MUD is good against every control and aggro deck out if it is with Chalice, Trinisphere, and Lodestone. Brown MUD's unfavorable to 50% match-ups are just any Show and Tell decks. Brown MUD can win if it is able to lock up 3 CC with Chalice and keep Trinisphere on the field. If the Show and Tell deck is a Hivemind varient deck, the win percentage becomes more unfavorable since at least in my version doesn't play Sundial of the Infinite.

Note:I decided to switch to Brown MUD with main-deck: Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, and Crucible of Worlds because I feel that Red MUD or the Autobots (I like to call it that) with Goblin Welder becomes to clunky in opening hands when there is no red mana source to cast it.

I played in a Legacy tournament yesterday and made it to top 8 with Red MUD, but I lost to Jund in the first bracket. Abrupt Decay, Lightning bolt, and Liliana of the Veil is just to harsh on Goblin Welder, Metal Worker and my creatures. I basically lose to not having enough lands because of Wasteland. I don't draw any lands afterwards since I run only 18 lands. For these reason, I'm switching from Red to Brown because I feel like I should be mean. : P

I also played in the SCG:DC and went 5-4. I started out good but ended up doing poor due to play error. Not once, did I ever see a Copper Gnomes the whole day. I was able to cast Goblin Welder into Faithless Looting maybe once the whole day. I feel Goblin Welder + Faithless Looting technology is awesome, but sometimes, it doesn't happen often or at times when you can, you cannot discard Blightsteel Collossus to weld him in.

[Zirath]

I don't think I've ever lost a match with Stompy to any Show and Tell Variant. Revoker, Lodestone Golem, and Karn do a lot of work.

[lukatron2]

Yea, that's the only way I figured this deck can beat Show and Tell. I feel like Brown MUD is good against every control and aggro deck out if it is with Chalice, Trinisphere, and Lodestone. Brown MUD's unfavorable to 50% match-ups are just any Show and Tell decks. Brown MUD can win if it is able to lock up 3 CC with Chalice and keep Trinisphere on the field. If the Show and Tell deck is a Hivemind varient deck, the win percentage becomes more unfavorable since at least in my version doesn't play Sundial of the Infinite.

Note:I decided to switch to Brown MUD with main-deck: Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, and Crucible of Worlds because I feel that Red MUD or the Autobots (I like to call it that) with Goblin Welder becomes to clunky in opening hands when there is no red mana source to cast it.

I played in a Legacy tournament yesterday and made it to top 8 with Red MUD, but I lost to Jund in the first bracket. Abrupt Decay, Lightning bolt, and Liliana of the Veil is just to harsh on Goblin Welder, Metal Worker and my creatures. I basically lose to not having enough lands because of Wasteland. I don't draw any lands afterwards since I run only 18 lands. For these reason, I'm switching from Red to Brown because I feel like I should be mean. : P

I also played in the SCG:DC and went 5-4. I started out good but ended up doing poor due to play error. Not once, did I ever see a Copper Gnomes the whole day. I was able to cast Goblin Welder into Faithless Looting maybe once the whole day. I feel Goblin Welder + Faithless Looting technology is awesome, but sometimes, it doesn't happen often or at times when you can, you cannot discard Blightsteel Collossus to weld him in.

I was experiencing that land problem as well and started testing 3 Thran Dynamo 3 Voltaic key. Dynamo made the deck feel a bit more stable but there were also times where I just wish it was mox diamond. is really great and doesn't necessarily slow you down the turn you cast it. Example plays that I found great: t1: ancient tomb, chalice for 1. t2: City of Traitors, cast thran dynamo, cast metalworker. Stuff like that.

Yea, running looting AND welder seems to clog up the deck a bit much and makes metalworker worse. Seems to me Welder is better off as the only red spell in the deck if you are going to run it. I'm going to try running 4 Thorn of Amethyst maindeck. Along with Chalice and golem it seems pretty good.

I'd like to hear a tournament report from SCG!

[dcosiem]

I was experiencing that land problem as well and started testing 3 Thran Dynamo 3 Voltaic key. Dynamo made the deck feel a bit more stable but there were also times where I just wish it was mox diamond. is really great and doesn't necessarily slow you down the turn you cast it. Example plays that I found great: t1: ancient tomb, chalice for 1. t2: City of Traitors, cast thran dynamo, cast metalworker. Stuff like that.

Yea, running looting AND welder seems to clog up the deck a bit much and makes metalworker worse. Seems to me Welder is better off as the only red spell in the deck if you are going to run it. I'm going to try running 4 Thorn of Amethyst maindeck. Along with Chalice and golem it seems pretty good.

I'd like to hear a tournament report from SCG!

As much as I like Voltaic Key in this deck because it allows to tap Grim and Thran for extra mana to cast a fattie, I hate it as much because it sometimes sits in your hand because you have a chalice for 1 out. : /

I run 2 Thran in my main, and it is seems perfect. It also took over the Smokestack slots because I feel Smokestack is too slow to get online and operating. It's very good to use to stall, but if you don't have enough permanents to gain you advantage, it's terrible. For instance, against Jund, my opponent had Sylvan Library out, or Dark Confidant out, and he was able to constantly cast spells to keep up with my 1 counter on Smokestack. :/ Having Thran helps me actually play bigger spells as well. This is actually pretty good!

I feel like right now this deck is very good in my meta which consist of all control/tempo and combo. Chalice + Trinisphere + Lodestone deck is a combo and control/tempo killer.

[lilevo]

So maybe we should try to run Staff of Nim, extra card every turn in a deck that doesn't really run any library manipulation and you are able to kill a few creatures seems good.

[dcosiem]

So maybe we should try to run Staff of Nim, extra card every turn in a deck that doesn't really run any library manipulation and you are able to kill a few creatures seems good.

I think this deck really needs to play Smokestack and Sundial of the Infinite in it's maindeck. If your opponent has nothing on his field because of Smokestack and he can't cast spells because of trinisphere or Chalice of the void, you're very much ahead. You can start beating face with whatever you draw. They have nothing to play because of Smokestack, Trinisphere, and Chalice of the Void lock.

[RaZe]

I think this deck really needs to play Smokestack and Sundial of the Infinite in it's maindeck. If your opponent has nothing on his field because of Smokestack and he can't cast spells because of trinisphere or Chalice of the void, you're very much ahead. You can start beating face with whatever you draw. They have nothing to play because of Smokestack, Trinisphere, and Chalice of the Void lock.

You're going into a prison route when u start to do that.

[whatwas]

Something like Bloody Stool would be awesome.

I laughed

[noobslayer]

@dcosiem: Remember you can cut Welder without cutting red. The remaining red options don't synergize with the forgemaster route as nicely, but I think it's by far and wide the most brutal color for stompy to splash into, even if you only do it for Godo and Bonfire.

[dcosiem]

@dcosiem: Remember you can cut Welder without cutting red. The remaining red options don't synergize with the forgemaster route as nicely, but I think it's by far and wide the most brutal color for stompy to splash into, even if you only do it for Godo and Bonfire.

You're correct on this understanding but against heavy control deck that maindeck a lot of 1-2 cc hate like jund or others, I believe playing straight prison brown mud is the right way to take this deck in.

Right now, I pack 3 crucible of worlds, 3 trinisphere and 4 chalice to stop my opponents from doing anything.

I run 23 lands which include: 4 rishadan port, 4 wasteland, 4 darktseel citadel, 2 crystal vein, 1 dust bowl and the other 2 set of sol lands.

The whole idea for my play style is to drop a turn 1 chalice then a turn 2 trinisphere and lastly a crucible afterwards. I want to be able to port and wastland my opponents until I built enough advantage through mana producers: grim monolith, thran dynamo, and metal worker.

I'm also am playing 2 karn liberated. I feel like he is a really good substitute to spine of ish sah if you don't want to rely too much on forgemaster tutor.

[g0atsticks]

Good Afternoon Guys. I've monitored/lurked this thread for a while and decided to build this deck. I have an after tourney at our LGS this afternoon and will be running this deck. I love the explosiveness of this deck. Once our mana is up and running and we're top decking, it can be fatty after fatty after fatty.

I like orks, therefore I like goblins. therefore I like Goblin Welder and am obligated to play him. He made you an ashtray, what more could you ask from the guy?

Heres the list I decided to run:

4 caverns of souls
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
1 mountain
4 great furnace
1 buried ruin
1 darksteel citidal

1 mox opal
2 lotus petal

1 platinum emperor
1 phyrexian metamorph
1 blightsteel colossus
1 sundering titan
1 steel hellkite
3 wurmcoil engine
3 kuldotha forge master
4 metalworker
4 lodestone golem
4 goblin welder

1 fireball (you may laugh/doubt, but a .10 cent common has killed oh so many sheeple)

4 grim monolith
1 mindslaver (This should be Staff of Nin, but I own none, has won games though)
2 lightning greaves
4 chalice of the void
1 staff of domination
1 batterskull
1 spine of ish ash


My sideboard will be built there once I see what everyone is playing.

Going in regardless:

3 Trinisphere
3 Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon
3 Tormad's Crypt
6 open slots


OH! Last thing, above all what I learned in this thread while lurking….Relax, and Brainstorm. I'll let everyone know how it went afterwards.

[kingtk3]

I've been busy at work and girlfriend for some time but I would like to make up for that:


I'd just like to say a nice word to all of you who have been ambassadors for the deck. It's really nice to know that the deck is in a good meta right now, and I feel that the collective discussions in this thread have greatly increased our knowledge of what the deck can do and how diverse the builds can be.

Well thank you for reading!!! What I really like of this thread is that although there are many variants of the deck, a number reguarding which only Nic Fit can compare, people here doesn't spam and doesn't starts flame about what version is the best: we actually listen to the others and give good advice to each others :)


I can see how Lodestone Golem isn't quiet strong enough in a meta full of lightning bolts and swords to plowshares. It's not quiet resilient unless you can protect or pump it. It really depends on the type of strategy you are pursueing. If your plan is to combo out with forgemaster, that 5 damage doesn't really matter. If your plan is to beat down with guys, then lodestone golem provides a lot of damage for a reasonable price.

I agree on that: I think lodestone golem is not as crucial in a combo build (with kuldotha) as it is in a stompy or prison build. Here's an old post about the argument
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=687380&viewfull=1#post687380


Does anyone know how to beat Show and Tell with this deck? How do you beat like an Omniscience when you don't have a Trinisphere or Lodestone Golem out?

First of all, the best way to beat S&T is to prevent the opponent from sculpting his hand: Chalice @1 usually shuts down many of his manipulation and slows him down enough for you to beat him. Taxing effect backed by an aggro route should work too.
Post side I recomend you board in Spine of Is-sah (since it destroys anything he puts on the table) and phyrexian revoker (naming sneak attack and griselbrand), Duplicant is better against Sneak and Show but is a gamble against Omniscence deck. Also, having a taxing effect on the table may prevent him to kkill you directly with storm.

Keep posting and thank you all!!!

[lukatron2]

Went 4-0 this past Sunday, 16-20 people tourney at Twenty-Sided-Store in Brooklyn, NY. Really great place, cool people working there and a great crowd of players, most of which are pretty cool cats. If you live in NY you should definitely come play Legacy there. They do Legacy twice a month on sundays.

4 Wasteland
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of traitors
4 Mishra's factory
2 buried ruin

1 Mox Diamond
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the void
2 Trinisphere
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination

2 Karn Liberated

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite

SB:
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trinisphere
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 All is Dust
1 Spine of Ish Sah

Round 1 vs Elves (Standard Legacy combo build)

G1
I have 7 cards with a city of traitors, Darksteel citadel, 2 Chalice, and some other stuff. I ponder weather to keep or not and I decide to mulligan afraid of mana screw. I draw a 6 that's a little slow, but I keep it. I start out with Ancient Tomb, pass. He plays Death Rite Shaman, pass. I can deal with that, I'm thinking. Turn two I play mishra's factory, pass. He plays land and glimps of Nature and combos out. I watch him draw cards and play elves. He plays a second glimps, and I keep watching. At this point I know he's going to win, but I want to watch because even though I know what it is, I've never actually played against this deck. I want to see his cards so that I can prepare for game two. Eventually he swings with a giant Craterhoof Behemoth and I lose.

G2
I side out Thran Dynamo and some other stuff, and side in phyrexian revoker, and trinisphere. turn 1 I cast Chalice for 1. Trinisphere, turn 3 Lodestone Golem. Beat down until Forgemaster fetches Blightsteel Colossus and poison counters win. I think he destroyed my Chalice as well, but regardless, a win it was.

G3
Probably the most intense game of Magic I've ever played; or at least one of them. I side in Two Ratchet bomb. He starts out by taking my trinisphere with Thoughtseize; not looking good for me. I waste his Bayou n he doesn't combo out after a few turns. I waste his Gaea's Cradle, but the next turn or so he casts natural order and gets a Progenitus out. I'm thinking it might be over, but I have a Platinum Empirion in hand and a Metalworker out. Luckily the next turn I reveal some artifacts, tap some land and play Platinum Emperion. At this point he has no way to kill me and I have no way to kill him. I lay ratchet bomb and set it to one. He's got two elves in play. Eventually I get a forgemaster out and fetch Blightsteel Colossus and swing, thinking I'm going to win. For some reason I was thinking that he would still get -1 -1 counters, but he's protection from everything, DUH. I swing for one poison counter a turn for a few turns and draw into a chalice, which I set at two (gotta protect my dudes from his Qasali Pridemage, and whatever other removal he might have.) We're down to 5 turns, and on turn 2 I draw Staff of Domination, gain a trillion or so life, draw most of my deck, and start laying out stuff. He scoops.
This match was SUPER close, and I was REALLY lucky. Drew the right cards at the right time. What a tough match up and an intense game 3. The guy seemed pretty pissed as I was taking a long time at times, but whatever it's all good.

Win 2-1

Round 2 vs Spanish Inquisition.
Really cool cat and a pretty good player playing this deck. He know's it's a terrible match-up and I know that pretty much all his sideboard is dedicated to beating control and aggro control. We shuffle it up and he wins the roll.

Game 1
playing something and passing. I lay a chalice at 1 and comfortably pass the turn. He thinks and says it looks interesting. Plays a Chrome mox, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus petal, and I think infernal tutor. Regardless of what he played that turn after the mana artifacts I remember, he plays goblin Charbelcher and we watch the cards flip (He has a few lands in the deck). He flips twenty cards with no land, and we move on to game two. I side out Thran Dynamo again, along with some big beaters, and I side in 2 Trinisphere, 3 Phyrexian Revoker, 2 thorn of ametheyst, and two ratchet bomb (I think).

Game 2
I don't really remember exactly how it went, but it starts out with him playing a bunch of spells and casting an infernal tutor and casts infernal contract, going down to 10 life, with no open mana. He land grants a second time and gets a dryad arbor out. I waste his bayou and I play two phyrexian revokers 1 naming chrome mox (He already has one out on the board with a LED in the graveyard), and the other one naming goblin charbelcher. I attack and one of them trades with dryad arbor. (I probably should have waited here, but I was anxious to get him down as he could still play tendrils. Finally I get a trinisphere and combo out with forgemaster.

Game 3
A little foggy on the memory but I think it was Early chalice for 0 and lodestone golem beats.

Win 2-1

Round 3 vs GB madness Homebrew (cool guy and a great deck)

Game 1
I keep a hand with a turn two hasted Metalworker and a few other things. He gets out an early Lotleth troll, bloodghast, a pair of Vengevines, Gravecrawler. I Cast an early Wurmcoil engine followed by another Wurmcoil engine the next turn. He beats me down. I manage to get ride of the Vengevines and block a large troll, while gaining life. Next turn my tokens block and kill more of his dudes. He gets out a wild mongrel and a couple of basking rootwallas, but my wurm tokens help me with blocking. Eventually I stabilize and win.

Game 2
He gets out another early troll and some wallas, and luckily I draw one of the two wurmcoil engines in my deck and block his big troll, using tokens once again and use buried ruin to get back a wurmcoil engine. I stabilize and kill him.

Super close match, but I got lucky draws, and was able to hold his army off with wurmcoil as MVP.

Round 4 VS gw(x?) Maverick

We were sitting next to each other the first three rounds, but yet I the whole time I was so focused on my games I didn't get a great look at his deck, but I knew the gist of it. We were both 3-0 at this point.

Round 1
I win the roll, keep. Turn 1 cast Chalice of the void for 1. Next turn I lay down Lodestone Golem (back to back timewalk essentially). Beat down with Lodestone golem for the win.

Game 2
We both mull down to 6, he keeps. I have to go down to 5. My 5 is looking pretty rough with two metal workers, forgemaster, grim monolith and I think I might have had a darksteel citadel as well. I decide to keep. He lays out a first turn mother of ruins, which doesn't help much against MUD. I topdeck city of traitors, lay down grim monolith, cast Metalworker. He plays a sylvan library, and the next turn gets out a Knight of the Reliquary. Next turn I play Staff of Domination with 3 artifacts in my hand, gain a bunch of life, tap his creatures, and draw most of my deck. I cast a bunch of spells and draw a bunch more cards cause I want to win with Blightsteel colossus, but he's somewhere near the bottom of the deck. Eventually I get tired of drawing cards and sacrifice three artifacts to a forgemaster and find the colossus, equip lightning greaves, and swing for 11 poison counters.

4-0 $40 store credit

Some thoughts and observations:

1.) I decided to try out Thran Dynamo this week in place of Mox Diamond. I found I never really needed it, and whenever I drew it, it just stayed in my hand to make Metalworker produce more mana to cast big spells, or for part of the fuel for the staff of domination combo. I sided out all Thran Dynamo every match. I'm either putting a full set of mox diamond back in the deck or I'll try running 1-2 Crucible of Worlds for a while with 1-4 mox Diamond.

2.) Buried Ruin won me a few games. I hear a lot of people on here saying that it isn't useful, but it sure helped me out a lot. It would be even better with crucible of worlds, and running a copy of mindslaver- of course at that point it might be easier just to run goblin welder. I'll try that out too when my set of Cavern of souls comes in the mail, but I really like mono brown.

3.) First time in a long while running staff of domination. I won't cut it now as midgame combined with metalworker + 3 artifacts in hand it not only gets you out of a tough spot, but it wins the game. Also an early metalworker + staff combo is not too uncommon. With 4 forgemaster in the deck, it can get pretty ridiculous.

4.) Forgemaster is so great in this deck it's unbelievable. Round 3 I had a metalworker out as basically my only source of mana, with some big spells in my hand as well as two forgemaster. I cast forgemaster and he got rid of him with Maelstrom Pulse instead of getting rid of metalworker. The utility that Forgemaster provides makes him a huge threat, and for me he's an auto 4 of.

5.) Lightning greaves mvp once again. Running 3 copies, and it never ceases to disappoint me. I often cast turn 1 greaves when I don't have a chalice, then turn two metalworker into more business. It's also another piece of the combo as it enables you to win the same turn you fetch with a forgemaster, or combo out with Metalworker + Staff of Domination. I'm not sure if I'll try running a 4th copy at the moment as 3 seems to be the perfect amount.

I really missed having mindslaver in the deck as a singleton, but without a way to make it reoccur, it seems like a 1 trick pony in certain circumstances. I'll try out a red version for goblin welder and pop a copy of slaver back in.

Lots more things but those are just a few. Definitely my favorite Legacy deck.

[dcosiem]

Congrats. I ran a list almost similar to yours. I played Rishadan Ports instead of Mishra's factory to enable mana denial with Crucible of Worlds strategy. I agree with you with the idea of Thran Dynamo being useless at times. I feel like Brown vs. Red are totally different decks in both of their nature. To play control, you play brown. To play combo, you play red. I don't think you can initially combine the two without having awkward hands and draws.

[lukatron2]

Congrats. I ran a list almost similar to yours. I played Rishadan Ports instead of Mishra's factory to enable mana denial with Crucible of Worlds strategy. I agree with you with the idea of Thran Dynamo being useless at times. I feel like Brown vs. Red are totally different decks in both of their nature. To play control, you play brown. To play combo, you play red. I don't think you can initially combine the two without having awkward hands and draws.

Thanks! I was thinking of running a single copy of Mishra's Helix along with ports for mana denial strategy. Will test it out one of these weeks, but in the past when testing port, I just found myself needing to use the mana to cast spells. We'll see I guess.

As for red, I think you can just splash it for welder in which case I would run 4 Goblin welder, 4 Cavern of Souls, 4 Great Furnace, 1-4 Mox diamond, 1 mindslaver, and 1 sundering titan. Just curious why it is ou think you have to comprimise the deck without having awkward hands? I guess it's 4 more non-artifact spells for Metalworker, but other than that I can't think of another reason.

[dcosiem]

Thanks! I was thinking of running a single copy of Mishra's Helix along with ports for mana denial strategy. Will test it out one of these weeks, but in the past when testing port, I just found myself needing to use the mana to cast spells. We'll see I guess.

As for red, I think you can just splash it for welder in which case I would run 4 Goblin welder, 4 Cavern of Souls, 4 Great Furnace, 1-4 Mox diamond, 1 mindslaver, and 1 sundering titan. Just curious why it is ou think you have to comprimise the deck without having awkward hands? I guess it's 4 more non-artifact spells for Metalworker, but other than that I can't think of another reason.

In my red version, i play 2 Faithless Looting and 3 Goblin Welder. I guess Faithless Looting acts as an initiator for the Goblin Welder effect as well as a card filter with Sensei's Divining top. I wouldn't be able to cast Faithless Looting if I maindecked Chalice of the Void.

[lukatron2]

In my red version, i play 2 Faithless Looting and 3 Goblin Welder. I guess Faithless Looting acts as an initiator for the Goblin Welder effect as well as a card filter with Sensei's Divining top. I wouldn't be able to cast Faithless Looting if I maindecked Chalice of the Void.

No Chalice of the Void maindeck? That card single handedly wins me more games than I can count. First turn Chalice for one (or 0) against elves, u/r delver, combo, and so many other decks it can make or break a match in so many situations.

Which made me think of a question for everyone: When you know you're playing against combo (ANT, TES), do you always drop chalice at 0, or set it at 1, or is it situational? I actually lost game one against Spanish Inquisition because I dropped turn 1 chalice for 1 instead of 0. My thoughts were that it would shut down more cards, but in retrospect the deck only ran a few lands, so in that case chalice at 0 would have definitely been the wiser play.

[kingtk3]

Against TES or ANT I would always try chalice@1 because it stops rituals, cantrips and discard. As acceleration I fear rituals more than artifacts because:
- they generate more mana
- only lotus petal is "harmless", because chrome mox is card disadvantage and LED needs a proper setup

If you are on the draw and don't have a sol land it might be correct to play it @0 though.

[Fry]

I prefer putting Chalice on 0 against TES or ANT. As mentioned it shuts down Petal, LED, and C. Mox. I know that putting it on 1 can stop/slow sculpting with Brainstorms, Ponders and what not, but putting the chalice on 0 stops the resp, crack LED to the Infernal Tutor for whatever they want. The 0 cmc mana sources can give them any color they want, the rituals just a specific color for them to work with.

The first Chalice I play against Storm variants is on 0 unless they already have at least 2 C. Mox, Petal, or LED in play. Otherwise the Chalice is being played for one... I've also skipped playing the Chalice on 1 since playing it on 2 stops Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor. Many TES don't run Tendrils main anymore, or Empty for that matter.

[Countertoplol]

Many TES don't run Tendrils main anymore, or Empty for that matter.

Most TES lists from empty main.

[dcosiem]

No Chalice of the Void maindeck? That card single handedly wins me more games than I can count. First turn Chalice for one (or 0) against elves, u/r delver, combo, and so many other decks it can make or break a match in so many situations.

Which made me think of a question for everyone: When you know you're playing against combo (ANT, TES), do you always drop chalice at 0, or set it at 1, or is it situational? I actually lost game one against Spanish Inquisition because I dropped turn 1 chalice for 1 instead of 0. My thoughts were that it would shut down more cards, but in retrospect the deck only ran a few lands, so in that case chalice at 0 would have definitely been the wiser play.

I've done exceptionally well with the deck because of my style I play-go all out, do or die. In life, it's not likely that all of the time that you get what you want without obstacles and distractions. Sometimes in life, you are face in a dilemma to deal with the best that you have. For these basic facts, I hate mulling after 6 to just get a chalice in your hand. Sometimes you gamble and you hit it big, but sometimes you are left with a even "worse" starting hand. I guess it's a skill to know when to go for the gamble or not. I don't know if sometimes I should mulll as many times until I get a Chalice or Trinisphere when I'm playing against a deck that if I land a Chalice of 1, it will stop their deck pretty nicely. I guess I'm still working on that aspect of my game. lol.

Dropping chalice at 0 is pretty good since it stops mana, but in all case possible, drop a trinisphere. Don't forget they can bounce Chalice with Chain of Vapors so it might be sometimes in some cases to drop it at one since they can't can-trip and are left with only mana producers.

Most decks play only 1 Ad Nauseam so if they have on in their hand, they might of been extremely lucky if you place Chalice on 1. Hopefully, you can beat them down before they have enough mana to cast it. Good fortune is in the Mud build that is quick enough to land a big threat during early turns with Metalworker or Goblin Welder.

[Cross Game]

No Chalice of the Void maindeck? That card single handedly wins me more games than I can count. First turn Chalice for one (or 0) against elves, u/r delver, combo, and so many other decks it can make or break a match in so many situations.

Which made me think of a question for everyone: When you know you're playing against combo (ANT, TES), do you always drop chalice at 0, or set it at 1, or is it situational? I actually lost game one against Spanish Inquisition because I dropped turn 1 chalice for 1 instead of 0. My thoughts were that it would shut down more cards, but in retrospect the deck only ran a few lands, so in that case chalice at 0 would have definitely been the wiser play.

First off, congrats on the win! I won the previous 20 Sided event in March with MUD Stompy, good to see the past 3 events Robots have been doing their job, haha! Twenty Sided is a really great venue, the crowd is generally incredibly nice, and the owner is a very nice guy. I second that if you're in NYC and haven't played there, it's totally worth giving it a whirl.

In regards to your first statement, me too. I think the past two tournaments, both of my G1s in the finals were won on on T1 Chalice x=1.

For me it's very situational whether I go X=0 or X=1, although I have a tendency to lean toward X=1. I like that on 1, you manage to diversify your restriction of the Storm players options. On 0 you're basically just stopping fast mana. On 1 you're stopping mana, filtering/selection, disruption, and some sideboard answers (xantid swarm, chain of vapor, etc). And although fast mana can yield T1 wins, I feel like that's relatively uncommon with great consistency, so I just go for the greater disruption. Ultimately though it's situational. I play Revokers, Golems, and a lot of sphere effects, so depending on what combination of cards I've got in hand, that'll help me decide. Whether on the play or the draw factors in as well.

Although I don't have experience with the full breadth of fast mana/cantrip combo decks I'd imagine X=0 or X=1 is better depending on if you're playing, ANT, TEPS, Belcher, Inquisition or Doomsday.

Ideally pre-board I'd want T1 Trinisphere, and post board T1 any sphere effect over Chalice.

[whatwas]

Hey everyone, last night I play a 15 man tournament and got 3rd place after going 2-1-1, drawing out for top 8 and playing swiss. Lets start

out with the list and I'll go from there.

the list:
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Sundering Titan

1 Karn, Liberated
1 All is Dust

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
1 Mox Diamond
1 Thran Dynamo
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Crucible of Worlds

4 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
2 buried ruin

Alright now the good stuff.

Round 1 Elves 2-1
I do not have much experience versus these list. I lose the roll and am on the draw. He drops a Forest and elf and passes.
My hand is something like Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Wasteland, Chalice, Trinisphere, and Karn after mulling the first
hand away. I see his mana producing elf and his starcitygames elf sleeves and do the math... place chalice on one and pass.
Next turn he lays down a two coster and passes. i then play trinisphere, pass. then he plays a 3 drop that pumps his guys
and swings for 2. i then play a City and lay down monolith and pass. he then get more elves and passes. i play karn taking
his elf lord thing pumping his little green men. after that i pass, he has a ton of mana after killing karn with an attack.
then casts a spaghetti monster and we go into Game 2.
-Thran Dynamo -Everflowing chalice -crucible of worlds - sundering titan.
+1 All is Dust, +2 Phyrexian Revoker, + Trinisphere
Game 2 I'm on play with a 6 card hand, no chalice. I start it out with a metalworker off Monolith and pass. He lays lanowar
elf or w.e. and then I cast lodestone golem. he get second land and plays krosan grip on lodestone and dissmembers metalworker.
I very saddly untap and mood changes when I top deck another worker. i play and pass. He sighs and plays a spell to grab Emrakul
out of his stack of elfs. I land a wurmcoil and pass. Its all over from there. Game 3 I mull to 6 again and begin to wonder
"wtf are you doing deck?" I'm kinda glad to be on the play, I think it heard me bc I got greaves, monolith, forgemaster and sol lands.
I'll leave the rest to your imagination;)

Round 2 Bug shardless 2-0
This was a match against a new player to the store who I haven't met. I roll 4 and am on the draw. He plays inquisition of
kozilek and takes my Metalworker, then lays down an Ancestral Visoin, I play a land and play chalice on one. He then hyme
me taking a forgemaster and a buried ruins. I play a Monolith and pass. He lays down a creature and passes. I play
forgemaster He casts Sharfless, and top decks a hyme with me have no hand. I crack forgemaster and end it soon with
blightsteel. Game 2 I draw 4 lands and a trinisphere and lodestone. I pass a few times until I hit a forgemaster and win
with blightsteel and a Metamorph on Blightsteel as well. He played good but his deck was at blame.

Round 3 RUG Delver 0-2
I'm playing the judge for the event and its not the first time we've battled. I roll a 4 for the 3rd time and am on the
play yet again. He has turn 1 delver and I try to bait the counters so I can resolve metalworker. Chalice is countered. He
then top decks another delver and has them both out waiting for flips. I play Monolith and he doesn't counter. So I play
trinisphere and hes like no, FOW. He then plays goyf and I cast a lodestone Golem who gets dazed. Then he flips and swings
bringing me to 13. I resolver Metalworker works but he bolts him EOT. (hoping to get WurmCoil out but no)
-Thran Dynamo -Everflowing Chalice -Phyrexian Metamorph
+crucible of worlds, + Trinisphere, +Ratchet Bomb
The next game goes pretty much the same but he kills me with two Goyfs instead. Baiting the counters doesn't work very well
when they run like 12 of them. Hes a good player regardless, though and no match is easy with him.

Round 4 is a draw into top 8 and after everything was signed he admits to playing elves and I regret drawing to him. He
goes on to semifinals and splits with the other guy. 2-1-1

Swiss Round 1 Esper Stoneblade 2-1
One of my good friends playing this deck. He doesn't have much experience with it bc he just finished it and was used to
playing tempo mostly with RWU Delver. I roll the 4 off a 20 sided Random dice AGAIN(4th time that night). He plays around a
bit and casts stoneforge, grabbing Batterskull. I play a chalice on 1 and he cuonters. next I play the top decks chalice
and it sticks, but its too late for that to matter. Then I play wurmcoil who is sent to harvest the fields witha plowshare.
Hes doing very good and is at 40 life before I resolve a Hellkite and put boots on him taking care of the germ token. Then
the stoneforge, then another stoneforge. Not long after that we go into game 2.
- Thran Dynamo, -Everflowing Chalice, - Crucible of worlds -Sundering Titan
+ 2 Ratchet Bomb +2 Phyrexian Revoke
Game 2 he gets stoneforge and batterskull. I get forgemaster but he pithing needles him then, I cast ratchet bomb to buy
some time. Then cast a Metalworker after playing lodestone. He then disenchants my worker and kills lodestone with jitte.
and we go into Game 3 after I attack with blightsteel then help him by telling him to bounce the batterskull and block
with stoneforge, and put out batterskull again, then casts a giest.I helped him out alot lol. Game 3 I mull into
blightsteel combo with not pithing needle on his side. I figured he took out jace so I call stoneforge with a revoker and pass.
Revoker gets disenchanted and and then I forgemaster for blightsteel, he takes 4 infect here and there blocking with
batterskull and jitte the rest to by him time. I then topdecked swords and and sends my blightsteel to the farms. But I top
deck wurmcoils and he packs it up. Was a very fun game.

Swiss Round 2 GWb maverick
Another good friend I've made at the store, I beet this deck a few weeks ago. But these games are different. I get and
early Crucible of Wasteland going only to have my Crucible answered by Pridemage. Then short on land I try to recover but
can as he deals out damage with his batterskull and other things. (I knew more about this match yesterday but forgot it
after my Computer froze while typing this).
-Thran Dynamo, -Everflowing Chalice, -Phyrexian Metamorph
+3 Phyrexian Revokers 0-2
This games started out almost the same with the Crucible of worlds and wastelands. But before I could waste a thing he
lands a Knight of the Reliquary and change my plans, but after he lands a second Knight, I forgemaster into a myr
Battlesphere for blocks and at that point he has Tower of Magistrate and has lethal with a Knight
There's my Report hope someone enjoys it, and that it wasn't too long. I'm dropping Everflowing chalice and may be adding a

Hellkite to the SB in place of the All is Dust I have in there..

[dcosiem]

This man got 5th place at SCG:Atlanta with this list:

Creatures (20)

1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Steel Hellkite
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Goblin Welder
Planeswalkers (1)

1 Karn Liberated
Lands (20)

4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
2 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
Spells (19)

4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff Of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
3 Trinisphere
1 Voltaic Key
2 Mox Opal
3 Faithless Looting
Sideboard

2 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Witchbane Orb
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Blood Moon
1 Karn Liberated
1 All Is Dust

Courtesy of http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=54840

[kingtk3]

...
Round 3 RUG Delver 0-2
I'm playing the judge for the event and its not the first time we've battled. I roll a 4 for the 3rd time and am on the
play yet again. He has turn 1 delver and I try to bait the counters so I can resolve metalworker. Chalice is countered. He
then top decks another delver and has them both out waiting for flips. I play Monolith and he doesn't counter. So I play
trinisphere and hes like no, FOW. He then plays goyf and I cast a lodestone Golem who gets dazed. Then he flips and swings
bringing me to 13. I resolver Metalworker works but he bolts him EOT. (hoping to get WurmCoil out but no)
-Thran Dynamo -Everflowing Chalice -Phyrexian Metamorph
+crucible of worlds, + Trinisphere, +Ratchet Bomb
The next game goes pretty much the same but he kills me with two Goyfs instead. Baiting the counters doesn't work very well
when they run like 12 of them. Hes a good player regardless, though and no match is easy with him.
...

I think that relying on metalworker (and thus bait his counters on something else) is not good against a deck that plays 6 ways to remove it and many cantrips.

Your best plays against canadian are chalice of the void@1 and any taxing effect as soon as possible in order to prevent their cantrip and to stop their Tempo plan. Obviously if you lay a Wurmcoil engine they have no way to remove it unless the use multiple cards, and if they don't they just loose.

In your situation I would have bait the opponent with metalworker in order to lay trinisphere or golem (possibly playing around daze), and I would have keep the monolith for the wurmcoil.

[lilevo]

I only played the RUG Delver match a handful of times but for what I see playing around their counterspells only works against the not super aggressive hands, if they have delver on t1 and let's say a FoW and Daze in hand I think you should be thinking about naming wurm for cavern of souls and hopefully you will draw one the other way is a lightning greaves on pretty much anything.

[lukatron2]

Had a very small tournament the other night (8 people) and I went 1-2.

1st round lost 1-2 against white weenie. Game 1 he outraced me and disrupted my dudes, and I drew real bad.

Game 2 Went on for a while. I have a tapped Lodestone Golem and Wurmcoil Engine. Also Metalworker and Goblin Welder. He drops meekstone. I have no artifacts in my graveyard. He attacks with Serra Avenger and another dude. I block with metalworker, then weld out Wurmcoil engine. He scoops, then realizes his play mistake. He should have just chipped away with the Avenger.

Game 3 I got triple wastelanded and he had two phyrexian revokers online naming grim monolith and goblin welder. He had a serra avenger out that was picking me off for three every turn. I swung with Lodestone Golem thinking it would be best to trade. He blocked and I got rid of his avenger, but then he had enough mana for oblivion ring which got rid of my metalworker the turn after I cast it. If it weren't for the revoker on grim monolith I would have had some business. Tough beats. Three wasteland aint no joke, and this deck can really get hurt from it sometimes. I really like the safe feeling I get when I lay down a darksteel citadel.

Round 2 Vs Red white scepter chant/burn with humility lost 0-2
Game 1 he gets a turn two disenchant on a Iscoron scepter (yea, he ran disenchant maindeck).
Game 2 I mulled down to 4 (should have kept that really mana intensive 7 and I probably would have drawn into something big and had enough mana to cast it. I think I had 5 land in my opening 7). Mull down to 4 gives me a turn 1 chalice, and I hastily drop it at one, which pretty much sealed the game for him. I should have known to keep it for another turn or two so I could set it at two, which would have sealed the game for me. Big play mistake by me. He gets a lightning helix on a scepter and I can't catch up.

Round 3 vs Black white discard Win 2-1
Game one chalice and beat down with lodestone golem
Game two poison counter win with forgemaster sacing to get blightsteel colossus.

A few things:

Wasteland Hurts, bad if you can't get a metalworker to stick. Keeping mana intensive hands might not always be a bad thing.

First time running Red in this deck. Goblin Welder with no way to get creatures in the graveyard wasn't very helpful at times, and I'd have him on the field waiting, swining for 1 or doing nothing. I think running 3-4 faithless looting would be a good idea if you're running welder. It helps filter out the cards you don't need, has flashback, and synergizes with Welder. He only won me one game that day, and he made the deck feel super clunky and made the deck more difficult to sideboard as this deck is already really tight. I don't want to say I don't like welder in this deck as of yet, but I guess he just didn't do much for me. It happens. The card is almost too good not to run.
Which leads me to my next question: What do you think are the advantages and disadvanteges of running mono brown MUD vs splash for red for welder/faithless looting. I really like mono brown so far but I'm going to keep running welder for a while and try to sneak in some faithless looting.

Also Didn't run Myr Battlesphere this day. How has the battlesphere been doing for everyone? It won me a game against an opponents Maze of Ith. It's nice to fetch and feed forgemaster, but then at that point I would usually just go grab blightsteel, unless they have removal and you have no chalice/lightning greaves.

The list I ran

Lands
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Great furnace
2 Darksteel Citadel

4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mindslaver
1 Staff of Nin
1 Staff of Domination
3 Lightning Greaves

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Empirion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Goblin Welder

1 Karn Liberated

Sideboard
3 All is Dust
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Trinisphere
2 Ratchet Bomb

I want to bump up the Wurmcoil Engine to 3 or 4, while also trying to squeeze in a couple Faithless looting, in which case I might run Trinisphere over Chalice, but I really don't like the Idea of moving chalice to the board. However I might just test it out.
Sundering titan seems good, but most decks in the format have such a low mana curve, and he can't hit nonbasics.
I'm just gonna keep tweaking and see which list I end up with. Always metamorphasizing.

[JoshuaPyleCarter]

Hey guys, Ive been playing legacy for a couple years now and started playing Metalworker a few months ago and I've been loving it. My first event playing Metalworker was a 57 player cash legacy event in Halifax, Nova Scotia (Canada). I ended up finishing first after going 4-0 in the Swiss then double draw into top 8.

Round 1: Bye
This kinda sucked since I'd just driven 3.5 hours to play legacy but it gave me a chance to look around the room and do some trading.

Round 2: Goblin Charbelcher
Game 1 - I won the die roll and lead with a chalice @ 1 which after playing against Belcher I think the correct play is leaving at 0. He promptly went off for 10 goblins on his turn and on my turn I untapped and played grim monolith before passing the turn. He swung for 10 putting me to 10 and I untapped and played kuldotha forgemaster. On his next swing I blocked a token and went too 1 then tutored up a platinum emprion and put a lighting greaves on him then my opponent scooped.
Game 2 - I board in Phyrexian Revokers and he gets turn one blecher but can't activate it till his next turn and I drop a revoker naming belcher and he scoops it up.
Round 3: UR Delver
Game 1- I lead with a turn 1 chalice on one and he doesn't have the force of will so after a little draw go on his end where off to game two.
Game 2 - I mull down to five this game and am never really in it.
Game 3 - I manage to get a trinisphere down against him and proceed to demolish his lands with a kuldotha forgemastered in sundering Titan.

Round 4: RUG Delver
Game 1- An early trinisphere and an unanswered metalworker finish him off here.
Game 2 - he boards in sulfuric vortex which was bad for me as it makes me wurmcoil engines less good. He manages to get two in play but I manage to just race him with a haste steel hell kite off a forgemaster and he dies to his own double sulfuric vortex on his upkeep.

Round 5 & 6: Double Draw into Top 8

Quarter Finals: UR Delver
Game 1- Got to play against one of my buddy's so he was ready for my turn 1 chalice which he answered with a Force but had no answer to the follow up trinisphere and wurmcoil.
Game 2- Was a battle with him eventually edging me out with double price of progress when I tapped out to play wurmcoil
Game 3 - I finally draw into my batter skulls this game and manage to remember to leave my wastelands untapped so that when he goes for the price of progress kill again I wasteland my own lands to stay alive and eventually gain enough life with the batter skull to put me out of reach.

At this point the top agree to do a prize split with each of us getting $260 and play out the rest for bragging rights which I'm cool with since I know the other guys in the top 4 and there all good guys.

Semi Finals: Esper Stone Blade (Tosh)
Game 1- This was a really fun game for me as Tosh is a fellow legacy junky and had helped me foil out parts of the metalworker deck before the tournament so he knew what I was playing. Game 1 didn't go well for Tosh as he couldn't really draw into any action as my chalice on one and trinisphere really slowed him down and his lingering souls and batter skull were just no match for my wurmcoil engines and other fatties.
Game 2- This game I lead of with a turn one goblin welder off of Cavern of Souls and he didn't have the swords to plow shares for it so when I untapped next turn and went for the trinisphere even if he countered it I could just welder it in which put him in a rough spot and he resulted in him having to pay 3 mana for a Senseis divining top. Eventually I drew into a wurmcoil engine and started attacking into his legion of lingering souls tokens. He eventually found an answer to my wurmcoil in humility put I had the Karn, Liberated to get rid of it.

Finals: Food Chain
This wasn't really a match as my opponent mulled down to 5 both games which is too bad since I've never played against food chain before and hadn't managed to see the deck in action all day.

Overall I love the deck and can't wait to play it some more. For reference here is he list I played though I would probably cut Phyrexian Metamorph as it felt unnecessary and maybe take out a wasteland for another cavern of souls as the card was so good for me.

Main
4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Goblin Welder
I Platnium Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Lodestone Golem

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnance
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Batterskull
2 Karn Liberated
4 Farie Macabre
3 Ratchet Bomb

[fogxanic]

I played today at WPN Premium tournament qualifier which had 19 players. I was playing colorless forgemaster build. Placed 7th.

Round 1: Belcher 0-1
I was on play kept 7. I played darksteel citadel go. Opponent plays his turn rituals, 2 chrome mox, land grand getting taiga. Belcher onboard and has 2 moxes ja land for next turn activation. I had in hand city trinisphere so it was turn too slow. Lose.
Next game my first 7 had T1 revoker but decided to mulligan to 6. I kept 6 which had 2 ancient tomb 2 lodestone golem and something irrelevant. Ancient tomb go. He played rituals belcher led and killed me. He imprinted to one chrome mox his burning wish so he could have gone to warrens also.
What you guys think should I try harder mulligan to chalice?

Round 2: Deadguy ale maybe? 1-1
I played something like total 2 lodestone golems 1 metamorph and some other creatures at first game he had 2 shamans and confidant easy win. Second game I played T1 greaves then he hymned my metalworker and some other. In few turns I played forgemaster which got stopped. Finally wurmcoil and lodestone same turn and he scooped he had liliana onboard.

Round 3: Goblins 2-1
He was on play and played T1 lackey. I played T1 ancient tomb and monolith. He attacked me and dropped ringleader which show 2 more goblins. My turn I put wurmcoil online I won ofcourse.
Next game he starts with lackey again. I play few turns some golems and other creatures. He stuck in 1 mana and loses he shows 3 ancient grudge from his hand.

Round 4: Imperial painter 3-1
I was really scared of this match because he has welders. He plays something which does nothing for me. I get pretty quick metalworker and staff combo and win. Next game he gets T2 grindstone and painter and I lose. Third game I get T2 metalworker and T3 staff combo.

Round 5: ANT 5-1-1 draw and both go to top8.

Top 8: UWR miracles 5-2-1 end.
I mulliganed to 5 to get something which looks playable. I play some meat but he pathes and next turn snapcaster path. He win. Next game I play early turns lodestone and metalworker but he uses terminus to put them to bottom. I play forgemaster and same destiny for him. Then I play revoker naming top and put greaves on. He gets clique which will win first. I put thorn of amethyst on. At 2 life I would draw enough mana to play karn from my hand but thorn taxes monolith for 1 mana so it wasnt enough.

Next time I might try welder build.

21 LANDS
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Buried Ruin

21 CREATURES
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite

18 OTHER SPELLS
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo
1 Karn Liberated
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin

SIDEBOARD
1 Karn Liberated
2 Spellskite
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Duplicant
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Staff of Nin

[lukatron2]

Hey guys, Ive been playing legacy for a couple years now and started playing Metalworker a few months ago and I've been loving it. My first event playing Metalworker was a 57 player cash legacy event in Halifax, Nova Scotia (Canada). I ended up finishing first after going 4-0 in the Swiss then double draw into top 8.

Round 1: Bye
This kinda sucked since I'd just driven 3.5 hours to play legacy but it gave me a chance to look around the room and do some trading.

Round 2: Goblin Charbelcher
Game 1 - I won the die roll and lead with a chalice @ 1 which after playing against Belcher I think the correct play is leaving at 0. He promptly went off for 10 goblins on his turn and on my turn I untapped and played grim monolith before passing the turn. He swung for 10 putting me to 10 and I untapped and played kuldotha forgemaster. On his next swing I blocked a token and went too 1 then tutored up a platinum emprion and put a lighting greaves on him then my opponent scooped.
Game 2 - I board in Phyrexian Revokers and he gets turn one blecher but can't activate it till his next turn and I drop a revoker naming belcher and he scoops it up.
Round 3: UR Delver
Game 1- I lead with a turn 1 chalice on one and he doesn't have the force of will so after a little draw go on his end where off to game two.
Game 2 - I mull down to five this game and am never really in it.
Game 3 - I manage to get a trinisphere down against him and proceed to demolish his lands with a kuldotha forgemastered in sundering Titan.

Round 4: RUG Delver
Game 1- An early trinisphere and an unanswered metalworker finish him off here.
Game 2 - he boards in sulfuric vortex which was bad for me as it makes me wurmcoil engines less good. He manages to get two in play but I manage to just race him with a haste steel hell kite off a forgemaster and he dies to his own double sulfuric vortex on his upkeep.

Round 5 & 6: Double Draw into Top 8

Quarter Finals: UR Delver
Game 1- Got to play against one of my buddy's so he was ready for my turn 1 chalice which he answered with a Force but had no answer to the follow up trinisphere and wurmcoil.
Game 2- Was a battle with him eventually edging me out with double price of progress when I tapped out to play wurmcoil
Game 3 - I finally draw into my batter skulls this game and manage to remember to leave my wastelands untapped so that when he goes for the price of progress kill again I wasteland my own lands to stay alive and eventually gain enough life with the batter skull to put me out of reach.

At this point the top agree to do a prize split with each of us getting $260 and play out the rest for bragging rights which I'm cool with since I know the other guys in the top 4 and there all good guys.

Semi Finals: Esper Stone Blade (Tosh)
Game 1- This was a really fun game for me as Tosh is a fellow legacy junky and had helped me foil out parts of the metalworker deck before the tournament so he knew what I was playing. Game 1 didn't go well for Tosh as he couldn't really draw into any action as my chalice on one and trinisphere really slowed him down and his lingering souls and batter skull were just no match for my wurmcoil engines and other fatties.
Game 2- This game I lead of with a turn one goblin welder off of Cavern of Souls and he didn't have the swords to plow shares for it so when I untapped next turn and went for the trinisphere even if he countered it I could just welder it in which put him in a rough spot and he resulted in him having to pay 3 mana for a Senseis divining top. Eventually I drew into a wurmcoil engine and started attacking into his legion of lingering souls tokens. He eventually found an answer to my wurmcoil in humility put I had the Karn, Liberated to get rid of it.

Finals: Food Chain
This wasn't really a match as my opponent mulled down to 5 both games which is too bad since I've never played against food chain before and hadn't managed to see the deck in action all day.

Overall I love the deck and can't wait to play it some more. For reference here is he list I played though I would probably cut Phyrexian Metamorph as it felt unnecessary and maybe take out a wasteland for another cavern of souls as the card was so good for me.

Main
4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Goblin Welder
I Platnium Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Lodestone Golem

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnance
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Batterskull
2 Karn Liberated
4 Farie Macabre
3 Ratchet Bomb

Congrats on the win, man. I like your build.Besides the metamorph is there anything you would change or test out? I also ran Cavern of Souls for the first time and it's amazing. Besides pushing welder through trinisphere, we have 8 Constructs in the deck and a handful of golems as well. That second and third cavern drawn against control is always helpful. I've been running different builds every tourney so I can see which I like best. It's funny because MUD seems so tight for space that different builds vary only a little. It's hard to make room for stuff. Has anyone here tried the build with Copper gnomes and 3 Blightsteel Colossus? I might run it one of these weeks.


I played today at WPN Premium tournament qualifier which had 19 players. I was playing colorless forgemaster build. Placed 7th.

Round 1: Belcher 0-1
I was on play kept 7. I played darksteel citadel go. Opponent plays his turn rituals, 2 chrome mox, land grand getting taiga. Belcher onboard and has 2 moxes ja land for next turn activation. I had in hand city trinisphere so it was turn too slow. Lose.
Next game my first 7 had T1 revoker but decided to mulligan to 6. I kept 6 which had 2 ancient tomb 2 lodestone golem and something irrelevant. Ancient tomb go. He played rituals belcher led and killed me. He imprinted to one chrome mox his burning wish so he could have gone to warrens also.
What you guys think should I try harder mulligan to chalice?

Round 2: Deadguy ale maybe? 1-1
I played something like total 2 lodestone golems 1 metamorph and some other creatures at first game he had 2 shamans and confidant easy win. Second game I played T1 greaves then he hymned my metalworker and some other. In few turns I played forgemaster which got stopped. Finally wurmcoil and lodestone same turn and he scooped he had liliana onboard.

Round 3: Goblins 2-1
He was on play and played T1 lackey. I played T1 ancient tomb and monolith. He attacked me and dropped ringleader which show 2 more goblins. My turn I put wurmcoil online I won ofcourse.
Next game he starts with lackey again. I play few turns some golems and other creatures. He stuck in 1 mana and loses he shows 3 ancient grudge from his hand.

Round 4: Imperial painter 3-1
I was really scared of this match because he has welders. He plays something which does nothing for me. I get pretty quick metalworker and staff combo and win. Next game he gets T2 grindstone and painter and I lose. Third game I get T2 metalworker and T3 staff combo.

Round 5: ANT 5-1-1 draw and both go to top8.

Top 8: UWR miracles 5-2-1 end.
I mulliganed to 5 to get something which looks playable. I play some meat but he pathes and next turn snapcaster path. He win. Next game I play early turns lodestone and metalworker but he uses terminus to put them to bottom. I play forgemaster and same destiny for him. Then I play revoker naming top and put greaves on. He gets clique which will win first. I put thorn of amethyst on. At 2 life I would draw enough mana to play karn from my hand but thorn taxes monolith for 1 mana so it wasnt enough.

Next time I might try welder build.

21 LANDS
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Buried Ruin

21 CREATURES
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite

18 OTHER SPELLS
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo
1 Karn Liberated
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin

SIDEBOARD
1 Karn Liberated
2 Spellskite
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Duplicant
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Staff of Nin

Nice run, man. How did you like thran Dynamo? What did you like and What didn't you like about the build you ran?

Anyhow, cheers guys. Love reading your reports and thoughts about the deck and the direction of it.

[Bichon_Blitz]

....Next game my first 7 had T1 revoker but decided to mulligan to 6. I kept 6 which had 2 ancient tomb 2 lodestone golem and something irrelevant. Ancient tomb go. He played rituals belcher led and killed me. He imprinted to one chrome mox his burning wish so he could have gone to warrens also.
What you guys think should I try harder mulligan to chalice?

I'm of the opinion, especially against combo, when you have your hate cards and can cast them you do. I would've played revoker naming belcher.

[fogxanic]

Dynamo is nice when you play like T1 ancient tomb monolith, T2 land tap monolith play dynamo then there are many options like untap monolith for atleast 9 mana for next turn or play lodestone, forgemaster. I didn't really played it many times in tournament I tried agaisnt uwr but it got fowed. Better it than karn from my hand. But maybe 3 is too much because some time I have only mana in hand.

I didn't really liked b. colossus. Never needed it and in hand it was -1 card. Against painter he had jaya ballard (summoning sickness) and goblin welder on board with esnaring bridge. I did staff combo and he said show me the kill. I was sided colossus out. I played all lodestones first then karn for exile bridge. 3 staff of nin shoot all his creatures down. Greaves and equip for myr battlesphere also metamorph to make another battlesphere and attack for 22. I think this build is good against aggro and combo but welder might help against miracles. Maybe something like Triskelion should be played on sb for shooting clique and snapcaster.

[Climax]

Placed 34 due to a bad tiebreaker, piloting MUD on GP Strasbourg.

Played the following list:


4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Buried Ruin
4 City of Traitors
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Steel Hellkite
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Metalworker
3 Voltaic Key
2 Karn Liberated
4 Batterskull
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void
1 All Is Dust
2 Dust Bowl
SB: 2 All Is Dust
SB: 1 Karn Liberated
SB: 4 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Trinisphere


The list is rock solid. Not a single bad card is played. I strongly believe, that this version of MUD is the most constant one.

MUs:

1-3: Bye
4: 1:2 SnT
5: 2:0 Tin Fins
6: 2:1 ANT
7: 2:1 TES
8: 2:1 Esper Blade
9: 2:0 Miracles
10: 1:2 SnT
11: 1:2 TES
12: 2:0 Elfball
13: 1:2 Maverick
14: 2:1 Elfball
15: 2:1 Imperial Painter
16: 2:0 Grixis Countertop

[(nameless one)]

How was the maindeck Karn?

Also, you're 1-2 against SnT decks. What exactly happened?

[Climax]

Karn was a powerhouse the whole day. It just wins against Miracles and Esperblade. And there were buttloads of Esperblade.

Rnd 4 SNT:

Game 1: I win on the back of a quick Lodestone Golem.
Game 2: I had Revoker naming Sneak and Karn + Metalworker on Hand for Show and Tell. Therefore Through the Breach took me out.
Game 3: I kept a greedy hand with the posibility of T2 Karn. Mulligans were no option cuz it can just get worse. So the Force on my Monolith was GG.


Rnd 10 SNT:

Game 1: I was simply too slow for Turn 2 Sneak Attack, Turn 3 Activation.
Game 2: Turn 1 Monolith into Key into 3 Sphere into Turn 2 Hellkite was enough.
Game 3: I lost to Turn 2 showed Emrakul cuz my Opponent had also FoW for my Out. Happens...

[dillonkbase]

Karn was a powerhouse the whole day. It just wins against Miracles and Esperblade. And there were buttloads of Esperblade.

Rnd 4 SNT:

Game 1: I win on the back of a quick Lodestone Golem.
Game 2: I had Revoker naming Sneak and Karn + Metalworker on Hand for Show and Tell. Therefore Through the Breach took me out.
Game 3: I kept a greedy hand with the posibility of T2 Karn. Mulligans were no option cuz it can just get worse. So the Force on my Monolith was GG.


Rnd 10 SNT:

Game 1: I was simply too slow for Turn 2 Sneak Attack, Turn 3 Activation.
Game 2: Turn 1 Monolith into Key into 3 Sphere into Turn 2 Hellkite was enough.
Game 3: I lost to Turn 2 showed Emrakul cuz my Opponent had also FoW for my Out. Happens...

Could you talk about how you sideboarded for these and your other matches?

[Climax]

I'll write a short summary on the weekend.
Generally i tend to board out the Batterskulls for the Revokers, All is Dust for Karn, and shave some random slots for Sphere against SneakShow

[dcosiem]

@JoshuaPyleCarter I don't think you should side out Phyrexian Metamorph because it has the ability to copy your artifacts. I understand why you play Duplicant in the main deck because you want to take away Emrakul and Griselbrand, stuff like that, but Phyrexian Metamorph almost does the same thing except it would destroy both. If you have permanents on the field, who cares if Phyrexian Metamorph dies? I have Duplicant in my sideboard, and Phyrexian Metamorph in my main. I like the fact that I can play a second Wurmcoil Engine or Blightsteel Colossus for 3 mana when the circumstances presents itself. Congrats on the finish. My list is almost similar to yours except for what I just told you. I also don't run 23 lands but 20 because I have Mox Opals in my main. Good job though!

@fogxanic I feel like Copper Gnomes is more redundancy because to add him to an already very tight list, in my opinion, it will just cause lots of bad draws; i've already tested this. I feel like it's just better to use Metalworker as your gem to cheat out big creatures and use Goblin Welder to recur lost artifacts. Also, I don't run Myr Battlesphere anymore because he doesn't do more than I want him to do at that cc as well as Staff of Nin. In my opinion, they don't create a large impact on the battlefield that they deserve a spot in the list for that cc. They are only good once you have a large abundance of mana set-up. Sometimes, you can't set-up a large abundant of mana because your lands keep exploding. I'm also not running anymore Platinum Emperion because sometimes you can lose to other ridiculous ways: poison counters, mill-decks; I've replaced him Platinum Angel.

[whatwas]

Sorry for not being on since my report, but I've been in the process of moving out/job hunting. Last weekend I played a copy of the list that made 5th place from the previous starcity games the week before with goblin welder. I played it okay but went 1-4-0. The list seems a little weak. It ran 3 wurmcoils and a blightsteel for kill. One match the wurmcoils got cranial extracted and it left me wishing I had more creatures. I will most likely not be playing welder any time soon, and am kicking myself for switching things up when the turn out was so nice for the tournament. Hopefully this week we get the same crowd and I am able to show off the mono brown list (winter factorys & all :wink: ). I'm really wanting to add in a second steel Hellkite or second Karn this week and may take out the myr battlesphere or a wurmcoil(3). I really like to see them show up in most matches(elves is making a come back in my location).

What are peoples thoughts of Wasteland vs Darksteel Citadel?
Wasteland is pretty sweet when you run a Crucible of Worlds, but most of the time its a temporary land.
Citadel is Indestructible and gives wastelands the finger.
I don't want to take out factorys. But I might do a 3/3/2 split of them, and take out crucible to free a space for karn/hellkite.
I'm open to anything criticism. thank you, in advance.

[Zirath]

3Sphere is awful against the SnT decks. That is the reason I moved to Thorn + Sphere of Resistance.

How was Crypt? Would it be better than Cage? Did you only board it in against the graveyard decks?

[Just me]

Hi all,

Busy building my first version of this deck. Sofar, I'm leaning towards mono-brown, though I very much like an active Welder, they're hard to get active (with good stuff in the GY).

anyway, my question to you all is, would Caltrops be a solid SB card against creatures? 1/1 goblins (Belcher/Storm style) die to it but so do a lot Death and Taxes or Maverick creatures, Snapcasters in several decks, Delvers and Monoose before they 'turn on'.

[Climax]

3Sphere is awful against the SnT decks. That is the reason I moved to Thorn + Sphere of Resistance.

How was Crypt? Would it be better than Cage? Did you only board it in against the graveyard decks?

I played Crypt because:

a) You want to have Chalice@1 and GY Hate against Reanimator and Dredge.
b) Crypt is also good vs. ANT (to hinder PIF kills).

Along with Buried Ruin, Crypt is just stupid good.

Yes 3-Sphere is not that good against SnT, but its better than nothing.

[dcosiem]

For grave hate, I play surgical extraction because Crpyt and Cage doesn't prevent from a turn 1 loss which is sometimes remotely possible with Dredge, Tin Fins and Reanimator.

[Zirath]

I played Crypt because:

a) You want to have Chalice@1 and GY Hate against Reanimator and Dredge.
b) Crypt is also good vs. ANT (to hinder PIF kills).

Along with Buried Ruin, Crypt is just stupid good.

Yes 3-Sphere is not that good against SnT, but its better than nothing.

Again, Thorn and Sphere of Resistance do the same amount of work as 3-Sphere in most match ups and Sphere can even come in against decks like RUG since it taxes their creatures too.

I've never run grave hate but then again the only grave deck I've lost to is Reanimator when he had a turn 2 with Daze + Force both games, so it's hard for me to say whether or not Crypt/Surgical is useful.

[Barsoom]

@Climax

I love your list, i'm a MUD player of the Kuldotha list (no Welder) but i would like to try new ways of building the deck; i have some questions for you:
- i own all the cards of your list except Batterskulls (price manageable) and Rishadan Ports (quite expensive); if i replace Battleskulls with Phyrexian Revoker/Trinisphere and Rishadan Port with Crystal Vein the deck will change drastically? is the mana denial so important in this kind of list? the Kuldotha list just run 4 Wastelands
- Why Trinisphere in the sideboard? i run 3 in my Kuldotha list and i absolutely love it against 90% of the decks i play
- the worst problem of MUD imho is that sometimes the deck just starts to do what he wants and you will only get horrible hands and crappy topdecks no matter what; do you think your list helps to mitigate this problem?

Enought for now, i'll wait for your report to understand more how to play this kind of list

[Climax]

@Climax

I love your list, i'm a MUD player of the Kuldotha list (no Welder) but i would like to try new ways of building the deck; i have some questions for you:
- i own all the cards of your list except Batterskulls (price manageable) and Rishadan Ports (quite expensive); if i replace Battleskulls with Phyrexian Revoker/Trinisphere and Rishadan Port with Crystal Vein the deck will change drastically? is the mana denial so important in this kind of list? the Kuldotha list just run 4 Wastelands
- Why Trinisphere in the sideboard? i run 3 in my Kuldotha list and i absolutely love it against 90% of the decks i play
- the worst problem of MUD imho is that sometimes the deck just starts to do what he wants and you will only get horrible hands and crappy topdecks no matter what; do you think your list helps to mitigate this problem?

Enought for now, i'll wait for your report to understand more how to play this kind of list

It's doable to swap the Batterskulls for Revokers but you loose one of your most important cards against Control and Aggro that way. Further more it's the second link besides Lodestone Golem between mid- and lategame.

Unfortunately Ports are necessary because Manadenial is what wins your games against Esperblade and Miracles. If you really need a replacement use Mishra's Factory. Theese have a nice synergy with Voltaic Keys at least and should help at the Batterskull problem.


You see, this version is not a lockdown deck. It's a pure and simple Manaramp deck. Therefore i prefer to play my ramp early, instead of cards, which try to lock out the opponent. It has been tried earlier to combine the lockdown and the aggro mode of MUD but so far, no satisfying results have been created.
Therefore I try to be the better aggro deck preboard and Trinisphere is hindering that too much.
(Just think of Ancient Tomb--> Monolith. Land--> Wurmcoil Engine compared to either Ancient Tomb--> Monolith--> Sphere--> Do nothing for the next 2 turns or Ancient Tomb--> Monolith. Land--> Sphere. Land--> Engine)
Also Trinisphere becomes weaker with every Lodestone Golem we play.


Besides that, you loose on threatdensity, which is also very important against control. Cuz they are by lots better at the topdecking game, than we are.

Hope that helps.

[L10]

I agree with Climax. I think Rishadan Port is integral with the MUD Stompy strategy. It stalls the opponent in the early game as we try to ramp up. It gives a late game soft lock once we have a tank out, especially combined with Thran Dynamo. A full set of Thran Dynamo is needed because it is our most stable form of ramp. Thran Dynamo and Rishadan Port has been consistently good for me.

In my opinion, this is the core of MUD Stompy:

Lands (22-23)
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2-3 Buried Ruin / Dust Bowl

Tanks (8)
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem

Ramps (11)
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Grim Monolith
3 Metalworker

Tools (7)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Voltaic Key

Flex (11-12)
X Sundering Titan
X Steel Hellkite
X Razormane Masticore
X Platinum Emperion
X Phyrexian Revoker
X Karn Liberated
X Crucible of Worlds
X Batterskull
X All is Dust

By the way, once I brought in Sword of Vengeance as a 1-off, purely as a joke. Also because we were having the discussion in this thread regarding other useful equipment, outside of Jitte, Batterskull, SoFI, and SoLS. But it actually worked out really good with all the creatures. It made Lodestone Golem much harder to trade against and makes Wurmcoil Engine an absolute monster due to the interactions of First Strike + Deathtouch and Trample + Deathtouch. It is not necessary by any means but it is effective when you want to finish your opponent off or want to kill a protected Planeswalker.

[Ecstatic_Conch]

I'm curious about Thran Dynamo. I've never tested it, as it seems very slow to me. You're banking on it doing something next turn. It's great that it untaps for free but I don't know if its worth the slots (my list is pretty tight as it is). What do you guys think? Does it solve the consistency problems this deck often seems to have? I've found MUD to be a fairly unforgiving beast, as it's very easy to get a poor hand full of stuff you couldn't play before your opponent kills you. Still, when the deck works, it's fun.

I don't have rishidan ports so I run the forgemaster variant. The artifact lands are necessary fodder for forgemaster and welder so you can't really run ports anyway.

One of the things I don't understand is how people can only play 20 lands. Sure the deck has metalworker and grim monolith for fast starts, but I've found consistently making your land drops is really important if you want to be able to cast your big spells. If they swords your metalworker or otherwise remove it you'll be looking pretty silly with a hand clogged full of high CMC artifacts and not much land. I also think having 23 lands helps to mitigate the problem this deck has with bad mulligans. Nothing sucks worse than going down to 5 or 6 and only seeing one land.

Here's my list:

Lands (23)
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace

Creatures (21)
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Goblin Welder

Artifacts (16)
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Voltaic Key
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Mox Opal

Sideboard:
4 Trinisphere
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel (Probably should be Platinum Emperion)
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 All is Dust

I'm glad metalworker seems to be winning more these days, it gives the deck a bit more credibility.

[whatwas]

I think that relying on metalworker (and thus bait his counters on something else) is not good against a deck that plays 6 ways to remove it and many cantrips.

Your best plays against canadian are chalice of the void@1 and any taxing effect as soon as possible in order to prevent their cantrip and to stop their Tempo plan. Obviously if you lay a Wurmcoil engine they have no way to remove it unless the use multiple cards, and if they don't they just loose.

In your situation I would have bait the opponent with metalworker in order to lay trinisphere or golem (possibly playing around daze), and I would have keep the monolith for the wurmcoil.

I was sure I miss played that whole match, this plan sounds really good, the metalworker is a lightning rod once its out and if i can land the trini/chalice fast he could be worth dropping. but not until hes protected. playing around daze and baiting FOW and baiting with metalworker seems right to me.


I only played the RUG Delver match a handful of times but for what I see playing around their counterspells only works against the not super aggressive hands, if they have delver on t1 and let's say a FoW and Daze in hand I think you should be thinking about naming wurm for cavern of souls and hopefully you will draw one the other way is a lightning greaves on pretty much anything.

I wish I could say that, but I know of four ppl piloting RUG delver at my shop so I play it all the time. I have been playing MUD every weekend since 09/2012 and I'm getting tired of it. This week I'm finishing nic fit and probably going to play it next time, just so i can change things up a little.

[baghdadbob]

My current list that I played at a small tourney at a friends house (about 8 people), I came in 2nd losing to reanimator.

Land/Accel
4x Dark Steel Citadel
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City Of Traitors
4x Cavern Of Souls
2x Wasteland
4x Crystal Vein

Utility Stuff
2x Voltaic Key
2x Lightning Grieves

Extra Ramp
2x Mox Diamond
4x Grim Monolith

Speed Bumps
4x Chalice Of The Void
2x All Is Dust

Creatures/Speed Bumps/Utility
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metal Worker
2x Worm Coil Engine
2x Myr Battle Sphere
2x Steel Hell Kite
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Platinum Emperion

Sideboard

2x Witchbane Orb
4x Trinisphere
4x Tormods Crypt
2x Surgical Extraction
1x All Is Dust
2x Ratchet Bomb

It performed well and will write a report later.

[(nameless one)]

How was Crystal Vein? Was the sacrifice clause to make 2 mana created problems? Would you consider Crucible of Worlds?

What about Mox Diamond? Would you wish that was Thran Dynamo instead?


How was All is Dust?

[Esper3k]

Anyone found a good solution to the RUG decks postboard?

I'm not as happy with the matchup as I'd like. Sure, we win if we land a Wurmcoil Engine or something, but it's getting to that mana without dying that's always the problem.

I'm currently playing the more Stompy (no Forgemaster) version.

I thought Spheres in theory would be good, but I've been finding them to actually be more restrictive on my mana than on theirs.

Stupid flying bugs!

[Climax]

Anyone found a good solution to the RUG decks postboard?

I'm not as happy with the matchup as I'd like. Sure, we win if we land a Wurmcoil Engine or something, but it's getting to that mana without dying that's always the problem.

I'm currently playing the more Stompy (no Forgemaster) version.

I thought Spheres in theory would be good, but I've been finding them to actually be more restrictive on my mana than on theirs.

Stupid flying bugs!

Defense Grid is the card you're lookin for

[dillonkbase]

Defense Grid is the card you're lookin for

Grid and chalice on one turn off the whole deck for 4 mana...

[Esper3k]

Grid and chalice on one turn off the whole deck for 4 mana...

Chalice @ 1 is powerful, but very difficult to get down early, especially if you're on the draw. You need to have a Sol Land + Chalice, while they can stop you with Force, Daze, Spell Snare, or Spell Pierce.

RUG also gets Ancient Grudge to deal with it and BUG gets Abrupt Decay.

It's really good, but often times they can get down say a Delver before it comes down (if it even makes it through their countermagic).

Defense Grid sounds good, but I'm hoping I can find something a little less specific.

[L10]

I have 4 Wurmcoil Engine, 2 Platinum Emperion, and 3 Batterskull to deal with RUG. Once they use up their permission, Platinum Emperion usually seals the deal, assuming they don't have artifact removal. If they do kill Platinum Emperion, hopefully you would be at a board position where that would not matter. Mishra's Factory does a fine job at blocking Mongoose. An early Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, Chalice, or Thorn of Amethyst may be enough to stall them out. What is your current list?

[Cross Game]

Anyone found a good solution to the RUG decks postboard?

I'm not as happy with the matchup as I'd like. Sure, we win if we land a Wurmcoil Engine or something, but it's getting to that mana without dying that's always the problem.

I'm currently playing the more Stompy (no Forgemaster) version.

I thought Spheres in theory would be good, but I've been finding them to actually be more restrictive on my mana than on theirs.

Stupid flying bugs!

I also play the stompy version and have never dropped a game to RUG. Weirdly enough, I use the spheres and find them to work out very well post-board. I think this is because I run the full 8pack of Sol lands, plus two Crystal Vein, and will aggressively mulligan until one of the following is in my opener: Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst or a Speedy Lodestone. So, usually I'm getting a T1 sphere effect out there, often with a second incase the first gets countered. I'll also up my Batterskull count in the matchup in order to up the lifelinkers making racing more difficult for the RUG player. Usually I find that if my T1 sphere effect is countered, it's not such a big deal because then they can't counter a Turn 2 fatty.

[Esper3k]

I have 4 Wurmcoil Engine, 2 Platinum Emperion, and 3 Batterskull to deal with RUG. Once they use up their permission, Platinum Emperion usually seals the deal, assuming they don't have artifact removal. If they do kill Platinum Emperion, hopefully you would be at a board position where that would not matter. Mishra's Factory does a fine job at blocking Mongoose. An early Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, Chalice, or Thorn of Amethyst may be enough to stall them out. What is your current list?


I also play the stompy version and have never dropped a game to RUG. Weirdly enough, I use the spheres and find them to work out very well post-board. I think this is because I run the full 8pack of Sol lands, plus two Crystal Vein, and will aggressively mulligan until one of the following is in my opener: Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst or a Speedy Lodestone. So, usually I'm getting a T1 sphere effect out there, often with a second incase the first gets countered. I'll also up my Batterskull count in the matchup in order to up the lifelinkers making racing more difficult for the RUG player. Usually I find that if my T1 sphere effect is countered, it's not such a big deal because then they can't counter a Turn 2 fatty.

Yeah again, Wurmcoils, Platinum Emperions, Batterskulls are mostly all great if you can get one down, but the problem I've always been having is getting to enough mana to do it. A good RUG player counters our mana stones and prevents us from getting to enough mana to cast our bombs alltogether.

Here's my current list (credit goes to Zirath because it's pretty much his list card for card with a few minor tweaks):

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
3 [M12] Buried Ruin
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [MPR] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
3 [UD] Metalworker
1 [ARE] Karn, Silver Golem

// Spells
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [NPH] Karn Liberated
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [M11] Voltaic Key
4 [ARC] Thran Dynamo
2 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [ROE] All Is Dust

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [NPH] Karn Liberated
SB: 1 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [US] Smokestack
SB: 2 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 2 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 1 [US] Karn, Silver Golem

My considerations right now is to decide if I want to board -4 Revoker into:

+4 Sphere of Resistance
-2 Karn, Liberated
+1 All is Dust
+1 Crucible of Worlds

or

+1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 All is Dust
+2 Platinum Emperion

Again, while Sphere sounds good in theory, especially on the play, I've been finding that in practice, they have been hurting me more than them since it make getting our mana stones down even harder. If they get down a single attacker before our Sphere comes down, Daze and Spell Pierce become even larger problems for us since they can just sit and leave 1-2 mana open (respectively) and pretty much turn those two spells into hard counters under a Sphere.

Currently, I also tend to leave in Voltaic Key because even though they're a blue deck with countermagic, I think getting access to our big mana is the only way we can win the matchup.

[Zirath]

How has Karn, Silver Golem been? I always thought he would be interesting as a way to bring a large army in a stalled game.

[lukatron2]

How has Karn, Silver Golem been? I always thought he would be interesting as a way to bring a large army in a stalled game.

I'm liking him as a 1 of in my non forgemaster list. In that list I run 3 Thran Dynamo, 2 Batterskull, 4 trinisphere. You need to have enough non creature artifacts to make him worthwhile. Also he's a great chump blocker and gets in for 4 when the board is empty.

[Cross Game]

Yeah again, Wurmcoils, Platinum Emperions, Batterskulls are mostly all great if you can get one down, but the problem I've always been having is getting to enough mana to do it. A good RUG player counters our mana stones and prevents us from getting to enough mana to cast our bombs alltogether.

Again, while Sphere sounds good in theory, especially on the play, I've been finding that in practice, they have been hurting me more than them since it make getting our mana stones down even harder. If they get down a single attacker before our Sphere comes down, Daze and Spell Pierce become even larger problems for us since they can just sit and leave 1-2 mana open (respectively) and pretty much turn those two spells into hard counters under a Sphere.

Currently, I also tend to leave in Voltaic Key because even though they're a blue deck with countermagic, I think getting access to our big mana is the only way we can win the matchup.


I find that many of the RUG players side out Daze against MUD, as usually the deck has decidedly more mana available to it than RUG. In most G2's and G3's I'll also play much more conservatively around the soft counters, and have no problems waiting till T2 to drop a rock so I've daze mana up or pierce mana up. I find that G2 and G3 wasteland and port become even more effective, as you can play them early, and effectively stripmine the RUG player out of the game in an uncounterable fashion. RUG's mana is so tight that I find that often they can't just sit on a single land or two lands because the early sphere effect shuts down their ability to cantrip into one of their 18 lands. There's no doubt that luck of the draw factors into the balance of threats, land, mana that MUD draws into and the amount of counters, threats, and lands the RUG player draws, but in my experience odds come up in favor of MUD. The density of spells that the RUG player must deal with is very high, and then there're the cards that cannot be dealt with via counter magic (Wasteland, Port, Cavern of Souls, Mishra's Factory, Mutavault, Sol Lands).

Voltaic Key is a card that I also rarely pull out of the deck, the tricks that it opens up with Mishra's Factory, crazy acceleration with Dynamo, Worker, Monolith, and Staff on Nin are pretttty sweet.

[baghdadbob]

How was Crystal Vein? Was the sacrifice clause to make 2 mana created problems? Would you consider Crucible of Worlds?

What about Mox Diamond? Would you wish that was Thran Dynamo instead?


How was All is Dust?

i would have loved crucible in here but I didn't have the card. I sent my play set away to get signed along with my wasteland set. They have been gone for about a month now... I hope I get them back soon. Mox diamond functions awesome but better with the crucible obv. I'm not a huge fan of dynamo. I really really tried to like it, running it as everything from a one of to a set and it just didn't do it for me. Crystal vein will be replaced with wastelands and I will be removing 1x All is Dust 1x Metamorph and 1x either voltaic key, mox diamond, lightning greaves, or ?. I will figure that out when I get my play set back and get to try out all the possible combinations. It takes me a really long time to figure out what is optimal. I used to run crystal vein as a 2 of and will also test more on that but have considered dropping it completely. Also i'm not 100 percent sure I want to drop one of the a.i.d.'s (lol) because it saved me from losing soooooo many games as a top deck. In my opinion it is one of the most undervalued cards in the deck.

[Esper3k]

How has Karn, Silver Golem been? I always thought he would be interesting as a way to bring a large army in a stalled game.

He's been... ok. Mainly I'm playing him as an answer to Batterskull/Equipment. He's usually either really good or really meh. I'm going to be testing a pair of Steel Hellkites in the Karn slots next time I play the deck, although it's really funny (at least to me) when you get out both Karn, Silver Golem and Karn Liberated onto the board together (sadly they don't synergize that well together).


I find that many of the RUG players side out Daze against MUD, as usually the deck has decidedly more mana available to it than RUG. In most G2's and G3's I'll also play much more conservatively around the soft counters, and have no problems waiting till T2 to drop a rock so I've daze mana up or pierce mana up. I find that G2 and G3 wasteland and port become even more effective, as you can play them early, and effectively stripmine the RUG player out of the game in an uncounterable fashion.

Daze is something a blue tempo player should keep in, especially on the play against us. We have the potential to drop scary things on T1 and they'll need every free counter they can to stop us from casting things they care about. Stifle is generally a much worse card for them in this matchup.

On T2, there is no way you can drop a mana rock with Spell Pierce mana unless it's a Grim Monolith or Metalworker off of 2 Sol Lands. It's pretty much impossible to play Thran Dynamo through Spell Pierce early.

I find Wasteland/Port actually less effective against RUG than against other decks. RUG decks these days pretty much only need 1 mana (Tarmogoyf is their only 2 mana spell) to function. If you're spending mana Wasteland/Porting them, you're making their Daze/Spell Pierces even more effective.


RUG's mana is so tight that I find that often they can't just sit on a single land or two lands because the early sphere effect shuts down their ability to cantrip into one of their 18 lands. There's no doubt that luck of the draw factors into the balance of threats, land, mana that MUD draws into and the amount of counters, threats, and lands the RUG player draws, but in my experience odds come up in favor of MUD. The density of spells that the RUG player must deal with is very high, and then there're the cards that cannot be dealt with via counter magic (Wasteland, Port, Cavern of Souls, Mishra's Factory, Mutavault, Sol Lands).

Voltaic Key is a card that I also rarely pull out of the deck, the tricks that it opens up with Mishra's Factory, crazy acceleration with Dynamo, Worker, Monolith, and Staff on Nin are pretttty sweet.

An early sphere effect that comes down before they can cast anything relevant is indeed powerful against RUG. However, my experience has been that usually they will be able to drop a threat or two before it comes down and then they can hold mana up to counter our relevant spells. In that case, our own Spheres actually hurt us more than it hurts them. Also, in terms of consistency, RUG is actually probably more consistent than we are since most cards in their deck are fairly redundant then you add in 4 Brainstorm / 4 Ponder to smooth things out. A single Delver can be very lethal for us since we don't usually have any way to deal with it without simply racing it with a Batterskull or Wurmcoil. Delver also cares nothing for any of our lands (and of course they run Wasteland on top of that).

Right now, I bring Key out generally against the blue control decks since they don't molest our mana or generally play many taxing counters (other than maybe some Spell Pierce), so we don't need to often generate more mana than exactly what we need to cast our bombs.

[(nameless one)]

@baghdadbob:

I don't think you'll need 3-4 Crucibles. Two should be enough.

I like Diamonds too as they accelerate you to early Chalice/3sphere.

Although Sphere of Resistance doesn't really help. In a format where a lot of decks can survive with 2 or less lands, it's not very effective.

[Zirath]

Sphere is there for Miracles and Show and Tell.

The two ways RUG beats you are either playing turn 1 Delver and denying you from playing anything or cantripping into lands so they have many Goyfs and then preventing us from gaining life.

[baghdadbob]

I'm not a huge fan of sphere main board. I love it in vintage but not so much in legacy. Thank for the advice on the crucibles and like I said will try out a lot of number combinations. I also am a huge fan of mox diamond in this deck.

[whatwas]

Is playing around daze even that important when they can pitch it for a FOW or brainstorm+fitchland for a different stuff? Either way the card wont hurt them so I can't see why they would board it out.

The deck is solid, the only way we win is a misplay on the rug players part or being able to land a lifelink creature to make up for the beginning of the game where they build the board up while not letting a single ramp or robot effect them. Or resolving a soft lock early enough. G1 is way better than G2+ bc they don't have grudge in yet. And will normally scoop to wurmcoil. Or if they fail hard emperion.

I think going against rug you need to know when to mull. I prefer having enough land so that wasteland isn't a problem. And using the ramp to bait counters. Boarding cards like trinisphere is kinda okay but wont help after a few turns. I'm actually thinking about grafdiggers cage or cards like ubamask that shuts down cantrips and fetching, for sb but not sure about that atm.

[Monkey_Island]

Hi everyone!

I am a huge fan of this deck since always and wanted to share my list with you in order to have some feedback...

The list I am currently playing is:

Creatures:
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Angel

Other:
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
2 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Staff Of Domination
1 Staff Of Nin
3 Lightning Greaves

Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Buried Ruins
2 Darksteel Citadel
2 Cavern Of Souls

As you can see, except for 4 Lodestone Golem, I am not using any sphere effect in the main as I feel it is not as powerful in Legacy as it is in Vintage. I have also tried a Stax version with 4 Serum Powder, 4 Leyline Of The Void, 4 Helm Of Obedience and 2-3 Urborg, Tomb Of Yawgmoth but did not go through with it... Is this something you've already tried?

[kingtk3]

Hi everyone!

I am a huge fan of this deck since always and wanted to share my list with you in order to have some feedback...

The list I am currently playing is:

Creatures:
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Angel

Other:
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
2 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Staff Of Domination
1 Staff Of Nin
3 Lightning Greaves

Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Buried Ruins
2 Darksteel Citadel
2 Cavern Of Souls

As you can see, except for 4 Lodestone Golem, I am not using any sphere effect in the main as I feel it is not as powerful in Legacy as it is in Vintage. I have also tried a Stax version with 4 Serum Powder, 4 Leyline Of The Void, 4 Helm Of Obedience and 2-3 Urborg, Tomb Of Yawgmoth but did not go through with it... Is this something you've already tried?

Hi, I don't play the forgemaster list but I'll give you my opinion anyway.

If you play forgemaster you play a combo deck, thus I don't think you need the crucibles since they are more for a control/stax deck. I would increase the count of moxes since they give you speed and the possibility to close a turn earlier: so I'd add 2 mox opal, 2 darksteel citadel and 2 great furnace (in order to achieve metalcraft) for 4 mishra's (quite unuseful in combo in my opinion) and 2 crucible.

About the leyline combo: I've never tested it but I feel you could have some difficulty to have double black and you don't want to aggressively mulligan to have it in your starting hand. I would play rest in piece instead, if I have to.

[Monkey_Island]

Thank you for your answer!

The 2 Cucibles are mainly for grindier games and Buried Ruin shenanigans. Also some games are just won with it + Wasteland

Concerning the Mishras I agree with you and I realised myself they were not useful in this deck.

However I have more issues with adding 1-2 Mox Opal beacause:
it is a bad draw when you already have 1 on the board
it is not usable until the 2nd or 3rd turn
I prefer Mox Diamond because extra copies can still be sacrificed to Forgemaster and it has synergy with Crucible.

Maybe I'm wrong to hang on Crucible but so far I'm stisfied with it!

[kingtk3]

@Monkey_Island: Ok, let us know how it works for you!

I'll attend at a medium event (~60 people) in a couple if weeks and I'm thinking about playing Stompy MUD, but since it's been a couple of months since my last tournament I would like your opinions about the deck, especially
is stompy MUD a good choice in today meta?
what are the worst matchups? and the best?
advice on the deck and tips on sideboarding

This is the list I'm planning to play

2 mox diamond
4 grim monolith
3 trinisphere
2 thran dynamo
4 chalice of the void
3 metalworker
3 phyrexian metamorph
4 lodestone golem
2 razormane masticore
2 wurmcoil engine
2 steel hellkite
2 godo, bandit warlord
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
2 batterskull

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
3 mountain
4 cavern of soul

SIDE
3 spine of ish sah
3 dodecapod
3 phyrexian revoker
3 tormod's crypt
3 ratchet bomb


ACCELERATIONS: mox diamond, grim monolith, thran dynamo, metalworker, ancient tomb, city of traitors
DISRUPTION: chalice of the void, trinisphere, lodestone golem, wasteland, rishadan port and partially phyrexian metamorph
BEATERS: lodestone golem, razormane masticore, wurmcoil engine, steel hellkite, godo, batterskull, eventually phyrexian metamorph
UTILITIES: razormane masticore, phyrexian metamorph, umezawa's jitte, sword of fire and ice

The plan is very simple: lay one or two pieces of disruption than beat the opponent before he can recover.
I'm unsure about the number of Godos (I would like 3), the Jitte and the sword. Masticore is here to take care of opposing creatures.
The cards I'm less sure about are the mox diamonds because although they provide early acceleration they are card disadvantage and I want to reduce the targets for abrupt decay. They could become a Godo and a Dynamo.

For the side:
- dodecapod is against discard (jund mainly, but any deck that plays liliana basically)
- spine is for show and tell decks
- revoker is a jolly, can name anything from sneak attack to lion's eye diamond
- crypt is the grave hate of choice because it can be played with chalice@1
- bomb is a catch all against tokens and tribal

I would like to keep karn liberated and all is dust in the side, but I cannot find room.

Sideboard strategies
Storm combo, Charbelcher: +3 revoker, +3 ratchet (for goblin tokens), -2 masticore, -1 Sword, -2 hellkite, -1 jitte
Canadian: -1 metalworker, -1 godo, +2 ratchet
Jund: +3 dodecapod, -2 mox, -1 sword
show and tell: +3 spine, +3 revoker, -2 masticore, -1 sword, -1 jitte, -2 hellkite
miracle: basically nothing, maybe -2 masticore, +2 ratchet

Can you help me sharpen the deck and improve the sideboard strategies?

Thank you!

[Esper3k]

Btw, another yard hate card you can consider is Faerie Macabre. Under Spheres, it's still "free" so you won't hurt yourself there.

[Alex Holland]

@Monkey_Island: Ok, let us know how it works for you!

I'll attend at a medium event (~60 people) in a couple if weeks and I'm thinking about playing Stompy MUD, but since it's been a couple of months since my last tournament I would like your opinions about the deck, especially
is stompy MUD a good choice in today meta?
what are the worst matchups? and the best?
advice on the deck and tips on sideboarding

This is the list I'm planning to play

2 mox diamond
4 grim monolith
3 trinisphere
2 thran dynamo
4 chalice of the void
3 metalworker
3 phyrexian metamorph
4 lodestone golem
2 razormane masticore
2 wurmcoil engine
2 steel hellkite
2 godo, bandit warlord
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
2 batterskull

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
3 mountain
4 cavern of soul

SIDE
3 spine of ish sah
3 dodecapod
3 phyrexian revoker
3 tormod's crypt
3 ratchet bomb


ACCELERATIONS: mox diamond, grim monolith, thran dynamo, metalworker, ancient tomb, city of traitors
DISRUPTION: chalice of the void, trinisphere, lodestone golem, wasteland, rishadan port and partially phyrexian metamorph
BEATERS: lodestone golem, razormane masticore, wurmcoil engine, steel hellkite, godo, batterskull, eventually phyrexian metamorph
UTILITIES: razormane masticore, phyrexian metamorph, umezawa's jitte, sword of fire and ice

The plan is very simple: lay one or two pieces of disruption than beat the opponent before he can recover.
I'm unsure about the number of Godos (I would like 3), the Jitte and the sword. Masticore is here to take care of opposing creatures.
The cards I'm less sure about are the mox diamonds because although they provide early acceleration they are card disadvantage and I want to reduce the targets for abrupt decay. They could become a Godo and a Dynamo.

For the side:
- dodecapod is against discard (jund mainly, but any deck that plays liliana basically)
- spine is for show and tell decks
- revoker is a jolly, can name anything from sneak attack to lion's eye diamond
- crypt is the grave hate of choice because it can be played with chalice@1
- bomb is a catch all against tokens and tribal

I would like to keep karn liberated and all is dust in the side, but I cannot find room.

Sideboard strategies
Storm combo, Charbelcher: +3 revoker, +3 ratchet (for goblin tokens), -2 masticore, -1 Sword, -2 hellkite, -1 jitte
Canadian: -1 metalworker, -1 godo, +2 ratchet
Jund: +3 dodecapod, -2 mox, -1 sword
show and tell: +3 spine, +3 revoker, -2 masticore, -1 sword, -1 jitte, -2 hellkite
miracle: basically nothing, maybe -2 masticore, +2 ratchet

Can you help me sharpen the deck and improve the sideboard strategies?

Thank you!

Stompy for the win!

However stompy is different from combo. So i would go for more control:

-lodestone golem is a beatstick that slows down. Especially with port and wasteland.
-karn liberated is crazy good. destroys what you want. Often more than onces.
-i dont like mox diamond. He makes your hand smaller. DO you really need him with 8 sol lands, 4 monoliths, 3 metalworkers? i dont think so.
-i dont get razormane masticore.. not even as a sideboard against creature heavy decks. You already have steel hellkite wich is easily much better.
-Have you tried magus of the moon? He wins against some decks, can hold a sword/batterskull and is a human just like godo so cavern on human and lock them.

[baghdadbob]

@Monkey_Island: Ok, let us know how it works for you!

I'll attend at a medium event (~60 people) in a couple if weeks and I'm thinking about playing Stompy MUD, but since it's been a couple of months since my last tournament I would like your opinions about the deck, especially
is stompy MUD a good choice in today meta?
what are the worst matchups? and the best?
advice on the deck and tips on sideboarding

This is the list I'm planning to play

2 mox diamond
4 grim monolith
3 trinisphere
2 thran dynamo
4 chalice of the void
3 metalworker
3 phyrexian metamorph
4 lodestone golem
2 razormane masticore
2 wurmcoil engine
2 steel hellkite
2 godo, bandit warlord
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
2 batterskull

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
3 mountain
4 cavern of soul

SIDE
3 spine of ish sah
3 dodecapod
3 phyrexian revoker
3 tormod's crypt
3 ratchet bomb


ACCELERATIONS: mox diamond, grim monolith, thran dynamo, metalworker, ancient tomb, city of traitors
DISRUPTION: chalice of the void, trinisphere, lodestone golem, wasteland, rishadan port and partially phyrexian metamorph
BEATERS: lodestone golem, razormane masticore, wurmcoil engine, steel hellkite, godo, batterskull, eventually phyrexian metamorph
UTILITIES: razormane masticore, phyrexian metamorph, umezawa's jitte, sword of fire and ice

The plan is very simple: lay one or two pieces of disruption than beat the opponent before he can recover.
I'm unsure about the number of Godos (I would like 3), the Jitte and the sword. Masticore is here to take care of opposing creatures.
The cards I'm less sure about are the mox diamonds because although they provide early acceleration they are card disadvantage and I want to reduce the targets for abrupt decay. They could become a Godo and a Dynamo.

For the side:
- dodecapod is against discard (jund mainly, but any deck that plays liliana basically)
- spine is for show and tell decks
- revoker is a jolly, can name anything from sneak attack to lion's eye diamond
- crypt is the grave hate of choice because it can be played with chalice@1
- bomb is a catch all against tokens and tribal

I would like to keep karn liberated and all is dust in the side, but I cannot find room.

Sideboard strategies
Storm combo, Charbelcher: +3 revoker, +3 ratchet (for goblin tokens), -2 masticore, -1 Sword, -2 hellkite, -1 jitte
Canadian: -1 metalworker, -1 godo, +2 ratchet
Jund: +3 dodecapod, -2 mox, -1 sword
show and tell: +3 spine, +3 revoker, -2 masticore, -1 sword, -1 jitte, -2 hellkite
miracle: basically nothing, maybe -2 masticore, +2 ratchet

Can you help me sharpen the deck and improve the sideboard strategies?

Thank you!

VERY INTERESTING LIST! I really don't agree with the trini's I would rather just have 2 crucible's in that spot and an additional land. Aside from that I love the idea of just beating them to death with an equipped metalworker. Robot with a sword haha. How has razormane masticore treated you thus far?

[baghdadbob]

Report: 2nd at Cosmo's Basement

Land/Accel
4x Dark Steel Citadel
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City Of Traitors
4x Cavern Of Souls
2x Wasteland
4x Crystal Vein

Utility Stuff
2x Voltaic Key
2x Lightning Grieves

Extra Ramp
2x Mox Diamond
4x Grim Monolith

Speed Bumps
4x Chalice Of The Void
2x All Is Dust

Creatures/Speed Bumps/Utility
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metal Worker
2x Worm Coil Engine
2x Myr Battle Sphere
2x Steel Hell Kite
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Platinum Emperion

Sideboard

2x Witchbane Orb
4x Trinisphere
4x Tormods Crypt
2x Surgical Extraction
1x All Is Dust
2x Ratchet Bomb

*Note* I had sent my Crucibles and 2 of my Wastelands away to be signed so my decklist wasn't what it should be.

I went home to Springfield MA for the week so I could play in my cousin Cosmo's legacy tourney (and go to my grandpa's funeral) he has every 6 months. Winner got a free calzone from Pizza Makers and a bottle of Crisp http://save-a-lot.com/products/orange.

The players:
Cosmo: U/B Reanimator
Keith: Merfolk
Anubis: Storm
Alex(my brother): Mono white control deck he built with me and Cosmo's cards.
Black Kirk: Burn
A.J.: Mill

We get over to Cosmo's around 4pm and of course he is still sleeping because he stayed up until 5 in the morning playing DDR. He says DDR has restored his health and he is glad he found something that provides his daily exercise. We jump on his mattress on the floor until he calls us scrubs and wakes up to get one of his token anime button up shirts. He shows us video of his new online girlfriend and her cat and tells us he's going to move to Wisconsin to be with her (it was weird). Then he attempts speed runs for Punky Skunk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punky_Skunk until the rest of the crew show up. Black Kirk shows up last with three 20 piece chicken nuggets from Mcdonalds and two bottles of Crisp, one for the winner and one for himself.

Game 1 Against Alex
I haven't seen what Alex has brewed yet so I walk right into a mana tithe after going all in with exploding my Crystal Veins. I take forever to find lands. He has elspeth and moat out. I play All is Dust wiping the board and then drop a golem and equip with greaves to take the game.
Sboarding: I take out Emperion and put in an additional All is Dust.
Game 2: He gets mana flooded and drops a moat and a ghostly prison. I play a steel hell kite who flys over the moat for the win.

Game 1 Against Cosmo
He gets a turn 2 Iona. I laugh and win anyways.
Sboarding: I don't remember.
Game 2: I get a turn 1 chalice and think I have him but he recovers with Jin Gitaxis and a Griselbrand.
Game 3: I get another turn 1 chalice and kill him with a myr battlesphere.

Game 0 against A.J.
A.J. is pussy whipped and has to go run errands for his girlfriend (who he shows us pictures of, no one is impressed)
Easy win!

I watch Keith and Cosmo play and witness awesomeness in game 2. Keith has a chalice at one and his 2 lands tapped. He surgical extractions naming exhume, Cosmo dazes in response, Keith surgicals again, Cosmo dazes again, Keith Dazes back... then they remember the chalice on one. We all lol and they call that game a draw.

Game 1 against Black Kirk
I get hit down to 4 and recover with a hasty Worm Coil Engine.
Sboarding: Bringing in Witchbane Orb and Trinisphere.
Game 2: I go all in on a witchbane orb with my crystal veins and pay dearly when I get smashed to smithereened I never find any land and don't recover.
About this time Kirk finishes his 60 piece nuggets. I am amazed. He is still hungry.
Game 3: I get a chalice on 1 and a witchbane orb into play. He eventually finds his smash to smithereens but it's too late.

Game 1 against Anubis
I get an easy win with 2 chalices in play.
Sboarding: Bringing in witchbane orb and trinisphere.
Game 2: He gets the turn 1 16 goblins or so that I can't beat.
Game 3: I get god hand and just lock him out of the game completely. 2 chalices in play and then a witchbane seal the deal.

Finals against Keith
I get a turn 1 chalice and then get a battle sphere out which he can't deal with. I'm feeling good.
Sboarding: All is dust and ratchet bomb come in.
Game 2: I tap out for a worm coil engine he dazes. He drops a back to basics and I never recover.
Game 3: This was truly an epic finisher. I all is dust twice, the second time losing 2 of my lands which were crystal veins. He gets me down to 2 life (he is at 4) I top deck an answer of Worm coil engine which I play and equip with greaves. He has one card in hand. I go to attack phase and with a smirk say "G.G." he looks down at his hand for 30 seconds and then taps three mana and psionic blasts me for the win. I am not happy.

Keith gets a bacon, mushroom, ricotta, pepperoni calzone and the crisp.

Props
All is dust- You were a champ all day.
Worm coil engine- One of the best creatures in the deck.
Pizza Makers- Great calzones.
A.J.'s girlfriend- Thanks for the win.

Slops
Psionic Blast
Crystal Vein
Congestive heart disease

[lukatron2]

I want to talk about sideboarding with this deck. Looking for advice from those of you who have done well in large scale tournaments with the forgemaster build which is basically in it's essence a combo/aggro deck with some control elements like chalice, which double over as protection for removal.

The list I'm playing now for reference:

Land:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
2 Buried Ruin

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Batterskull
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Voltaic Key
1 Mox Diamond
1 Staff of Domination

Side Board:
4 Trinisphere
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Oblivion Stone
2 Crucible of Worlds

I will be running 3 Spellskite in the SB as soon as I buy some. Oblivion Stone would usually be All is Dust, but I'm testing this out to see if it's any good.

So to talk about sideboarding, cause I often struggle to take cards out and find room for the ones to side in, also deciding which cards to bring in for different match ups. For example, I would not side in Trinisphere against Miracles or Esper Stoneblade as it is a terrible mid-game card, and they can usually stabilize and play around it in the experience that I've had playing against those particular match ups. But maybe that's just my luck. Also with this build there's less of a chance of getting out a turn 1 trinisphere. We need to have mox diamond and a soul land, or grim monolith and a sol land.

I would usually bring in Trinisphere against ANT, TES, High Tide, Elves, and probably BUG shardless, R/G/(U) delver and the likes. The deck is so tight already, I find it hard to decide what to take out when I'm sideboarding after game 1.

How do you guys side board against the following decks usually? (Post your sideboards and/or deck lists if you feel like it).

U/R Delver, Canadian Thresh, BUG shardless etc
Miracles
Esper Stoneblade
Sneak and Show
Death and Taxes
Merfolk
Goblins

Esper and miracles are our worst match-ups in my opinion and I would like to know how everyone else usually fairs in this match up and what your sideboard strategies are. Aggro control tempo decks can go either way, but I feel like it's a good match up for us. Combo is an easy win usually (TES, ANT), but I have trouble with elves because of natural order, usually resulting in them bringing out progenitus. Anyhow, I could blab on but I really just want to get a discussion going about sideboarding strategies I.E. what to take out/bring in against different match-ups. thanks for the time, gents. Hope to hear from ya.

[kingofethanol]

Anyone have a solid Tangle Wire/Smokestack shell? It could be a method of approaching these blue monsters.

[dcosiem]

Anyone have a solid Tangle Wire/Smokestack shell? It could be a method of approaching these blue monsters.

I currently don't play Smokestack in my build since I don't have 2 more Crucible of Worlds. I have proxied it up before, and I find them to be akward or unecessary if you don't have crucible of Worlds out in play. I really think Smokestack don't belong in Mud. I would love to hear anyone refute my argument.

[kingofethanol]

Btw, another yard hate card you can consider is Faerie Macabre. Under Spheres, it's still "free" so you won't hurt yourself there.

Awesome, so glad someone is also thinking this, I've had a few in my sideboard for a long time now. They haven't been extensively tested but I usually only bring them in against Dredge and Reanimator, where Trinisphere/Chalice is important to resolve.

Some Tangle Wires should be coming in the mail. I'm hoping I'll have the time to test them out next weekend. I have high hopes and expectations of the card, but it can also be a huge flop. No matter, I do not mind having every iteration of MUD (aside from the strange Godo/Affinity lists I've seen floating around this thread).

[(nameless one)]

Tangle Wire is great with Goblin Welder. Keep that in mind.

[bruizar]

My new manabase:

4x Wasteland
4x Darksteel Citadel / Buried Ruins
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City Of Traitors
4x Thespian's Stage
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Dark Depths

2/3x Crucible of Worlds

[Barsoom]

I have a question, if i have City of Traitors on the battlefield and i play Thespian's Stage, can i tap the City to add 2 mana, copy it with Stage and then sacrifice the City?

[bruizar]

I don't think you can. You have to have the Thespian Stage in play already before you can copy the City of Traitors. It's still a marginal play, but it can give you that minor manabump you may need to get your spells online. Copying a Buried Ruins is sort of nice as well.

I'm also contemplating whether or not it might be a good idea to change to the locus-mana base of:

4 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Thespian Stage
3 Dark Depths

[dillonkbase]

I don't think you can. You have to have the Thespian Stage in play already before you can copy the City of Traitors. It's still a marginal play, but it can give you that minor manabump you may need to get your spells online. Copying a Buried Ruins is sort of nice as well.

I'm also contemplating whether or not it might be a good idea to change to the locus-mana base of:

4 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Thespian Stage
3 Dark Depths

Mox Diamond can make hay out of extra dark depths and help give metalcraft to Mox opals, my head is nearly spinning.

[Esper3k]

I have a question, if i have City of Traitors on the battlefield and i play Thespian's Stage, can i tap the City to add 2 mana, copy it with Stage and then sacrifice the City?

Yes, you can. City of Traitors ability is a regular triggered ability, so you can copy it with the Thespian's Stage while the triggered ability is on the stack.

[bruizar]

Yes, you can. City of Traitors ability is a regular triggered ability, so you can copy it with the Thespian's Stage while the triggered ability is on the stack.

oh wow. When would this be relevant though? If you play another land you would simply have to sacrifice the city of traitors, right?

[Esper3k]

oh wow. When would this be relevant though? If you play another land you would simply have to sacrifice the city of traitors, right?

Yeah if you played another land, you'd have to sacrifice the Thespian's Stage (unless you had it copy another non-City of Traitors land first, of course).

I mean I guess you could do it that way if you drew a Thespian's Stage and just wanted to get it out on the battlefield and didn't need the mana for anything that turn?

[Barsoom]

I'm testing the Dark Stage combo in MUD on Cockatrice, and i must say i'm quite satisfied; there are some things i can say:

- Thespian's Stage in the deck can be good even without Dark Depths, you can copy City of Traitors and another little trick is to copy Darksteel Citadel so your Stage will be immune to Wasteland; to activate it you need 2 mana, and that's fine in this deck.
- The 2 cards this combo fears most are Sword to Plowshares and Wasteland; the first is countered by Chalice of the Void that's already a staple 4x on MUD, the 2° is countered by Crucible of Worlds; i see from my testing that usually we don't care for Jace/Liliana cause we got Lightning Greaves (i play 3x) to win really out on nowhere
- I see this combo in MUD like just an additional way to win, you can win without it like we always did, that's why i'm testing with 3x Thespian's Stage and 2x Dark Depths (that's useless alone); if i draw it, nice, if i don't, i can just win in another way.
- I'm not sold on totally removing the Cavern of Souls, right now it fights with Darksteel Citadel for the slot
- Crucible of Worlds main or side? right now i'm playing it as a 2x on side

My list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Dark Depths

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Trinisphere
3 Voltaic Key
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
-----------------
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Defense Grid
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Spine of Ish Sah/Phyrexian Metamorph

[(nameless one)]

You do realize that if you copy City of Traitors with Thespian's Stage that the stage also gain City of Traitor's drawback.

Sure you can copy Darksteel Citadel with it but indestructible cannot stop sacrifice clauses.


Also, you can't name Wasteland on Phyrexian Revoker. I'm pretty sure Wasteland is a land.

[Barsoom]

Yes, i do realize.

Yes the land can still be sacrificed so Smallpox and Pox can still destroy it and then? i have 2 Crucible of Worlds in the side if i really want.

[kingtk3]

Report time!
I've played a tournament at Mana Base at Macerata last week with a Stompy MUD list:

4 grim monolith
3 trinisphere
2 thran dynamo
4 chalice of the void

3 phyrexian revoker
3 metalworker
3 phyrexian metamorph
4 lodestone golem
1 su-chi
3 wurmcoil engine
2 steel hellkite
2 godo, bandit warlord

1 sword of fire and ice
2 batterskull

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
3 mountain
4 cavern of soul

SideBoard
3 ratchet bomb
3 tormod's crypt
3 dodecapod
3 spine of ish sah
2 cursed totem
1 thorn of amethyst


I apologize in advance for any error due to lack of memory.

Round 1 Vs Jund
He wins the roll but I have a very aggressive hand:
turn 1 - monolith
turn 2 - Godo fetching batterskull
turn 3 - Lodestone
turn 4 - wurmcoil
turn 5 - metamoporph cloning wurmcoil
My opponent manged to kill Godo on the second turn and played a Deathrite and a couple of goyf, but couldn't keep up with the pressure
Side: -2 godo (is weak to lightning bolt), -1 sword, +3 ratchet bomb
I play first turn revoker naming deathrite, turn 2 lodestone and turn 3 Wurmcoil. He concedes at turn six when I play steel hellkite
1-0

Round 2 vs Charbelcher
My opponent shuffle the deck but leaves it on the the table face up with an Elvish spirit Guide on top: I immediately put him on Belcher or Hypergenesis.
My first seven where CoV, CoV, monolith, 1_mana_land x4 and, since I won the roll, I go with mountain-> Cov@0. Opponent played gitaxian probe and pass the turn. I topdeck a Trinisphere and played it via monolith. Opponent scoops.
Side: -2 Godo (too slow in this matchup), -1 batterskull, -1 sword, +3 ratchet bomb, +1 thorn
My first seven this time were Trinisphere x 2, Wurmcoil, Metamorph, mountain, port, city. I know that if I land a trinisphere is GG, but I also know that he will try to go off on turn 1 because it's the only certain window outside my lock pieces: so there was na high chance that he would go for the empty the warren route. In this case my only outs would be ratchet or monolith for wurmcoil. Since my opponent mulligans I mulligan too. Twice (six cards with no lands). I keep land, ratchet, metalworker, thorn, golem since it cannot go better than this. My opponent try to go off on turn 1 but fizzles. I draw 2 lands in a row and in the following turns I drop 3 golems on the field.
2-0

Round 3 vs aggro-BUG
Game 1 he thoughtzeise me, then drop delver and Tombstalker while countering my locks (1 daze and 1 Fow) and double decaying my accelerations (monolith and metalworker). I would have want to play around the daze, but sadly due to the pressure I couldn't afford that.
Side: -1 sword, -1 su-chi, -1 metamorph, +3 dodecapod
If jund cannot deal with a wurmcoil, BUG has problem against Godo too, so the plan here is to stick one of those asap. I start with a land and he responds with tropical->shaman. I play a port and keep his land tapped while he fails to draw a second. On my third turn I hastly play a trinisphere hoping to seal the game but running into his daze. He had fow too, but it was my error to play too fast. After a couple of turns, in which he forced my golem and a metalworker I think (I don't remember well) and abrupt decayed a monolith, I'm left with a land and a dodecapod in hand and nothing particular on the field, while he had a goyf and a shaman. He plays thoughtseize giving me a free 5/5, but his goyf is 5/6 and I cannot win the race.
2-1

Round 4 vs Maverick
Game 1 he leads with vial, Thalia, some mana dorks and a Reliquary, while I cannot find a sixth mana to play the robots that I drew one after the other.
Side: -1 sword, -3 trinispehere (too many dorks and vial for this to be effective), -1 su-chi, +3 ratchet bomb, +2 cursed totem
Game 2 I play a chalice@1 to stop his swords to plowshares then drop double golem and double ratchet against which his reliquary couldn't win.
Game 3 I drew ancient tomb, chalice, totem, golem, metamorph, monolith and ratchet: it's a strong hand against mav but I have of I get to draw a land in the next two cards, while he mustn't draw a waste. I durdle a little then keep what I should have mulled. My opponent play first turn vial, second turn waste and I don't draw a land for the rest of the game.
I committed my second error in the tournament: that hand shouldn't be keeped anyway, even if my opponent doesn't have vial and waste, because this deck doesn't have manipulation and it's not good at recover.
2-2

Round 5 vs the Rock
I play turn 2 trinispehere, then metalworker, then wurmcoil, then hellkite then chalice. My opponent plays a deathrite shaman and a reliquary and some discard, but that's all.
Side: -1 su-chi, -1 sword, +2 dodecapod
Turn 1 monolith, turn 2 godo + batterskull while she plays a Gaddock Teeg. When I attack she plays a scryb ranger and blocks godo with Gaddock and Scryb. I had to play around a couple of pernicious deeds but at the end batterksull goes in the long distance.
3-2

Round 6 vs RUG
My opponent plays an homebrew with skylasher and turn/burn. Game 1 he counters a Chalice and a Golem and plays a delver, double goyf and double skylasher, putting me at 4 life before I stabilize with wurmcoil, batterskull and hellkite.
Side: -3 metamorph, +3 ratchet
Game 2 I play a monolith then cavern naming dragon and drop an hellkite which clears his board. After a couple of turns I play a wurmcoil and a golem off a metalworker while double wasting my opponent.
4-2

Unfortunately I'm out of top 8 for tie breaking :(
The deck felt strong and should I've played correctely the fourth round I should have reached top8; Maverick is a though matchup admittedly. I definitely need more testing against BUG too, although I think he had very good hands.
The cards that I'm thinking to change now are sword of fire and ice and Su-chi, but perhaps it's because as singletons they don't show up often. In the side I may switch the dodecapods, which I played in fear of the Jund matchup which was revealed quite easy, for something more useful against BUG.

Any suggestion is appreciated.

[dcosiem]

Has anyone found a successful core of cards for Mud to build off of? I can't seem to figure out which set of cards has the best synergy against the whole format. It has been perplexing me into abyss. I've been switching from all types of versions of Mud from red to brown.

[Climax]

Has anyone found a successful core of cards for Mud to build off of? I can't seem to figure out which set of cards has the best synergy against the whole format. It has been perplexing me into abyss. I've been switching from all types of versions of Mud from red to brown.

You will receive lots of different opinions on this question. I still think that a ramp aproach is better than the combo version.

You can find my list from GP Strasbourg on page 43.

The core is

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
0-4 Buried Ruin
2 Dust Bowl

Tanks (8)
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Steel Hellkite

Ramps (11)
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Grim Monolith
3 Metalworker

Tools (7)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Voltaic Key

Yepp. that are 50 cards set in stone for me

[dcosiem]

Well, here's my current lists that I guess I'm settling with. It has weaknesses. I just can't seem to tinker Mud anymore. I've tried the brown version and although, i like it more, it is far much worse to figure out a good build in my opinion.

4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Goblin Welder
4 Faithless Looting
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Voltaic Key
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
1 Myr Battlesphere
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Sundering Titan
2 Mox Opal
3 Mountain
1 Mindslaver
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Angel
1 Staff of Domination
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Spellskite
SB: 2 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Whipflare

Can I get some critique from some of you experience Mud players? I would really like to know what you guys think. I'm going all out on Welder and Forgemaster here.

[kingtk3]

Well, here's my current lists that I guess I'm settling with. It has weaknesses. I just can't seem to tinker Mud anymore. I've tried the brown version and although, i like it more, it is far much worse to figure out a good build in my opinion.

4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Goblin Welder
4 Faithless Looting
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Voltaic Key
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
1 Myr Battlesphere
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Sundering Titan
2 Mox Opal
3 Mountain
1 Mindslaver
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Angel
1 Staff of Domination
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Spellskite
SB: 2 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Whipflare

Can I get some critique from some of you experience Mud players? I would really like to know what you guys think. I'm going all out on Welder and Forgemaster here.

I would try to fit at least 3 Phyrexian revoker/pithing needle, because heavly played cards like deathrite shaman and scavenging ooze are going to give you trouble. Besides I don't think you need the Voltaic keys, since your plan is to cheat the robots into play via forgemaster or welder, and with the new rulings the metamorph cannot be used to kill opposing Legends.

I would try the following changes:
-2 Voltaic Key, -1 Phyrexian Metamorph, -1 Mindslaver
+3 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 Duplicant

Also I advice you to prepare your sideboard plans: it's easy to guess what cards you want to board in but it's more difficult knowing what to board out (even with the new rules I don't think it's good to play with more than 60 cards). For example, in your side you have 3 chalice of the void and in main you have 10-12 CC1 spells: against what deck you board in the CoVs? What do you side out?

[fogxanic]

I have one guestion for all MUD players. What cards you use against S&T decks like omnihalls and hivemind? Especially against hivemind I got nothing. Only hoping that the deck fizzles or I get very fast kill.

[Esper3k]

Chalice @ 1 is pretty good early as you shut off their cantrips. 3 card combo decks are sad when they can't cantrip.

Likewise, Spheres of Resistance / Thorns come in to slow them down.

We don't have really much of a way to completely shut them out other than just dropping resistors and attacking with dudes until they die. However, with that game plan in mind, it's very doable if you attack their mana with Wasteland/Port while putting resistors out.

[lukatron2]

I have one guestion for all MUD players. What cards you use against S&T decks like omnihalls and hivemind? Especially against hivemind I got nothing. Only hoping that the deck fizzles or I get very fast kill.

Trinisphere is boss against omnihalls as it makes spells played after dream halls and ominecense still cost 3 to play.

[kingtk3]

I have one guestion for all MUD players. What cards you use against S&T decks like omnihalls and hivemind? Especially against hivemind I got nothing. Only hoping that the deck fizzles or I get very fast kill.

As others already said you need to shut off their resources and cantrip: cov@1, trinisphere or a fast golem can bring you there.
Game 2 I board in Spine of ish sah, because if they manage to cast S&T it will destroy anything they've put into play. I know that omnihalls can fetch trickbind (if they have cunning wish in hand) and hivemind can cast summoner's pact in response, but if you have already put a resistor into play (golem, trini, thorn...) they'll need more mana to accomplish that, likely at least 5.

If you play forgemaster build I advise you to play a couple of platinum angel between main and side, to you fetch it in response to their kill: even with laboratory maniac they won't win.

[SirTylerGalt]

If you play forgemaster build I advise you to play a couple of platinum angel between main and side, to you fetch it in response to their kill: even with laboratory maniac they won't win.

Can't they just bounce it? They have their whole deck in their hand, so they can just Cunning Wish for a bounce.

Against OmniTell, I like playing resistors (Lodestone Golem, Trinisphere, Chalice, Thorn of Amethyst).

[kingtk3]

Can't they just bounce it? They have their whole deck in their hand, so they can just Cunning Wish for a bounce.
...


My bad, I was implying that you have some kind of taxing effect on the field, in that way they would have need mana to actually cast the spells and that can give you a turn or two.
Without resistors on the field this decks are almost undefeatable, especially omnihalls which can counter any triggered ability you can pull off a S&T

[SirTylerGalt]

My bad, I was implying that you have some kind of taxing effect on the field, in that way they would have need mana to actually cast the spells and that can give you a turn or two.
Without resistors on the field this decks are almost undefeatable, especially omnihalls which can counter any triggered ability you can pull off a S&T

In that case, I'd rather tutor a Null Brooch to counter the Show & Tell or Enter The Infinite. Once they have played ETI, it's game over :/

[kingtk3]

or you can tutor possessed portal... that would be quite brutal, shutting down EtI and dodging trickbind...

[SirTylerGalt]

or you can tutor possessed portal... that would be quite brutal, shutting down EtI and dodging trickbind...
That's pretty powerful. That said, can't they just wish for a bounce instead of wishing for Trickbind? Or Trickbind the Forgemaster ability?

[kingtk3]

If they wish for a bounce then they need some other gas in hand. If they wish for firemind's foresight to fetch trickbind then they cannot counter the ETB of the card you put via S&T.
That said I think these will be fringe cases: the best thing you can do is drop a resistor and a clock and, in game 2, keep in hand some ETB ability/replacement effect

[lukatron2]

Bringing MUD to Baltimore this weekend. Wish me luck!

[kingtk3]

Bringing MUD to Baltimore this weekend. Wish me luck!

Good luck!!!!
What list do you play? Forgemaster or stompy?

[Esper3k]

If they wish for firemind's foresight to fetch trickbind then they cannot counter the ETB of the card you put via S&T.

Why not?

If they Show & Tell, you drop say Spine and they drop Omniscience, with your Spine trigger on the stack, they can still Firemind's Foresight for Trickbind and Trickbind your Spine Trigger.

[lukatron2]

Good luck!!!!
What list do you play? Forgemaster or stompy?

Forgemaster with red for welders!

[Alex Holland]

What do you guys think of batterskull? I run 4 but maybe 1 is enough? (with godo)

[kingtk3]

Why not?

If they Show & Tell, you drop say Spine and they drop Omniscience, with your Spine trigger on the stack, they can still Firemind's Foresight for Trickbind and Trickbind your Spine Trigger.

It refers to a previous post:


Originally Posted by kingtk3
"or you can tutor possessed portal... that would be quite brutal, shutting down EtI and dodging trickbind..."

That's pretty powerful. That said, can't they just wish for a bounce instead of wishing for Trickbind? Or Trickbind the Forgemaster ability?


What I meant is that if they trick the forgemaster ability they cannot counter other EtB abilities

[kingtk3]

What do you guys think of batterskull? I run 4 but maybe 1 is enough? (with godo)

Godo for batterskull is a powerfull play, but I think batterskull alone is also good because

it's a beater "immune" to sword to plowshares and mass removal
it gives value to metalworker and phyrexian revor in late game when you can equip them to turn them in real threats
it fits perfectly the mana curve since at 5 mana this deck doesn't have many drops (assuming you don't play forgemaster)

Personally I run 2 batterskull, but I think I could fit a third if my meta become more aggro

[Esper3k]

It refers to a previous post:


What I meant is that if they trick the forgemaster ability they cannot counter other EtB abilities

Ok gotcha. I think that's probably a corner case though. More likely they're going to play Show & Tell before we get a Forgemaster activation.

[kingtk3]

Ok gotcha. I think that's probably a corner case though. More likely they're going to play Show & Tell before we get a Forgemaster activation.

Yeah, I think that too: it was merely speculation but you never know what it may happen ^_^
Anyway without some resistor I don't think it's possible to win omnihalls, or any combo in general

[th3 w1z4rd]

I brought MUD to my LGS yesterday and went undefeated six games in a row, lost game 1 of the last round, won game 2, and then punted game 3 like a boss to come in 2nd place overall. I played the Stompy version, not the Forgemaster version. I feel it's superior because it doesn't have a fragile line of play that it has to do much of the time to win. Here's my list.

Artifacts
4 Batterskull
3 Grim Monolith
2 Voltaic Key
2 Thran Dynamo
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Staff of Domination
2 Lightning Greaves

Creatures
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Steel Hellkite
2 Sundering Titan
4 Metalworker

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Rishadan Port
2 Cavern of Souls

Sorceries
2 All is Dust

Planeswalkers
1 Karn Liberated

Sideboard
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Trinisphere
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Duplicant
2 Spine of Ish Sah


Round 1 vs. Turbo Eldrazi

I face this dude almost every time, often first round. I know what he's playing so I figure I win easily, and I do.

Game 1 I win the die roll and go Ancient Tomb, Chalice for 1 (shutting down a decent part of his hand). I don't remember exact sequencing but he repeals a Staff of Domination at some point, and I play an early Lodestone Golem, waste a Cloudpost and the Vesuva copying it, then play Steel Hellkite. He scoops.

1-0

+1 Duplicant, +2 Spine of Ish Sah, -2 All is Dust, -1 Karn

Game 2 I have a Chalice on 1 and a Metalworker right before his Turn 3 or 4 Show and Tell into Primeval Titan, getting two more Cloudposts to complement the one he has already along with a Tropical Island(he should have gotten Glacial Chasm perhaps but he feared Wasteland again). I put in Duplicant off the SnT (nice titan!). On my turn I attack for 6 and tap Metalworker to play a Wurmcoil Engine and a Steel Hellkite. We both forget about my Chalice on 1 as he plays a Candelabra of Tawnos and makes some mana but he doesn't find an out with his Sensei's Divining Top plus fetching so he scoops again.

Chalice for 1 was insane in this matchup and so was Wasteland. Hello, I'm Captain Obvious. Nice to meet you. My opponent ruefully shook his head as he commented that Turbo Eldrazi is the only Legacy deck he has and I am his nemesis because I always bring a deck that is good against it (Reanimator, Elves, MUD...).

2-0 2-0

Round 2 vs. WRB Burn/Midrange? I'm not really sure.

Game 1 his Goblin Guide gets me two extra lands as he throws burn at my face and gets out a Vexing Devil and a Deathrite Shaman as well. I stabilize with Batterskull and Lodestone Golem after wasting him twice.

1-0

I saw him put in Stony Silence against the other MUD deck that was there, so I'm like oh God this could be annoying.
+2 Spine of Ish Sah, +3 Trinisphere, -2 All is Dust, -1 Karn, -1 Sundering Titan? I forget

Game 2 He goes land, pass. I go Tomb Chalice for 1. He plays Stony Silence Turn 2. It doesn't matter because I have a City of Traitors and another land so I drop Batterskull with another in hand and he scoops. I also had Trinisphere and attacked his manabase which was awesome. I felt like this guy scooped too easily a lot but whatever.

2-0

It's a good thing most of our lands aren't artifacts as well haha. Stony Silence was useless. Batterskull was MVP of course since I didn't see Wurmcoil Engine.

2-0 4-0

Round 3 vs. Esper Stoneblade

Game 1 my opponent wins the die roll but mulls to five. He is forced (get it? har har) to counter a Chalice on 1, pitching Jace, the Mind Sculptor (Awesome). I play some lands, he plays some lands and Stoneforge Mystic getting Batterskull. I trump it with an uncounterable Wurmcoil Engine courtesy of Cavern of Souls naming Wurm. Then I do it again. It's over at this point but he doesn't scoop yet. He does when I drop Lodestone Golem after he Mystics again for Jitte and blocks a Wurmcoil Engine with everything he has, leaving me with four creatures to his zero.

1-0

-2 All is Dust, - 1 Karn, +3 Trinisphere

Game 2 his first turn Thoughtseize takes my Chalice but I draw another one and set it to 1. I land Wurmcoil Engine and he O-Rings it. He gets Mystic fetching Jitte I think. I play Lodestone Golem and combine that with Rishadan Port and a Wasteland to prevent him from playing his Jace. I play Lightning Greaves as well. The turn after, I play Metalworker, give it greaves, play Batterskull, give it haste and attack for 9, then switch greaves back to Lodestone Golem. He knows I also have Trinisphere in hand because I revealed it with Metalworker. He's done.

2-0

The combo of Lodestone Golem, Wasteland, and Rishadan Port was great. Wurmcoil Engine was a house.

3-0 6-0

Round 4 vs. BUG Control

Game 1 He has counters for everything I do, Hymn to Tourach, and Jace. I get wrecked.

0-1

-2 All is Dust (for some reason), -1 Karn (for some reason), +3 Trinisphere I think

Game 2 He has some discard and counters. I have Chalice on 1. He drops Liliana of the Veil on an empty board and I'm like shit, but I draw Wurmcoil Engine and play it with Cavern of Souls protection. He edicts me and the wurm tokens kill Liliana. I drop Lodestone Golem and kill him.

1-1

He wants to draw but I want to play. We're both undefeated and the difference between first and second place is a single pack so I mean really let's just play.

-2 Staff of Domination, +2 Phyrexian Revoker

Game 3 was hilariously misplayed on my part, although he made a mistake Turn 1 that actually sealed my fate. He went Turn 1 Pithing Needle naming Metalworker, which you may notice is completely useless. However, I had a brain fart and forgot about the whole "doesn't affect mana abilities" part so I assumed Metalworker was shut off. DERP! This mistake cost me the game eventually. I had the Metalworker/Staff combo in my opener and mana to play around Daze, plus other goodies. D'oh! Anyway, I draw some lands and play them along with a Grim Monolith. He counters a couple threats and drops Jace AND Liliana. He then gets Life from the Loam active with Wasteland, which eventually wrecks my shit despite the fact that he keeps leaving Darksteel Citadels on top when fate sealing for some reason. It doesn't matter because when he Counterspells my Thran Dynamo and Maelstrom Pulses my Monolith, I'm left with three Citadels and no other mana, with Jace at 11 and Liliana ticking up as well. I scoop.

1-2

It sucked because I would have won easily if I had played correctly. He admitted that he had no answer to Turn 1 or 2 Metalworker --> Staff or Metalworker --> double Wurmcoil Engine, either of which I could have done. :(

3-1 7-2

Needless to say, my last round opponent won the tournament and I got 2nd place. I opened an Obzedat in one of my packs and nothing else remotely good. Still, I felt that I had the strongest deck in the room, the event was an absolute blast to play in, and my girlfriend was there as well piloting my Reanimator deck, so the day was excellent overall. We all make mistakes sometimes.

Thanks for reading!

TL;DR MUD Stompy kicks ass.

-Tom

[Esper3k]

Hadn't been able to play Legacy in a few weeks and got a chance to again this weekend, so I dusted off MUD and went to battle with robots and their cold metal hands. I got the last 2 foily Batterskulls I needed for the tweaks I had been playing around with so I was happy to be able to give this baby a try.

Here's my current list (pretty much stolen from Zirath):

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
3 [M12] Buried Ruin
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [MPR] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
3 Metalworker

// Spells
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [NPH] Karn Liberated
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [M11] Voltaic Key
4 [ARC] Thran Dynamo
3 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [ROE] All Is Dust

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [NPH] Karn Liberated
SB: 1 [NPH] Batterskull
SB: 1 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [US] Smokestack
SB: 2 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 2 [MM] Crumbling Sanctuary

Only 16 players, but that's still pretty decent for a weekly Legacy tournament! 4 rounds swiss, cut to Top 4.

[u]Round 1 - vs RUG)

Nice thing about having a small meta is a that you generally know what most people are on. Nice thing about having a pretty good collection and changing decks every week is that they don't necessarily know what you're on :)

Game 1: I lose the die roll and he leads off with Trop into Mongoose. I have a good hand mixture of lands, ramp, and bombs. My first mana ramp spell gets countered, but my next one makes it through and I start dropping Batterskulls. After the second one gets down, he scoops 'em up.

-4 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Crumbling Sanctuary
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Batterskull

Normally, I don't like to leave in Voltaic Keys against blue decks, but in this matchup, since we pretty much win if we resolve Batterskull or Wurmcoil against them, we need to focus more on mana than increasing our bomb density.

Game 2: T1 Mongoose comes down and starts picking at me. He's pretty much holding a handful of counterspells because no more creatures come down during the next few turns. I bait out a Force with a Chalice @ 1. Grim Monolith eats another Force, sweet! Crucible makes it down next turn and I know he's out of countermagic. He drops a 'goyf which speeds up his clock considerably, so I play Monolith, eat Goyf damage for a turn, and drop a Wurmcoil next turn with Daze mana up. Wurmcoil draws a frown town and my next turn Lodestone + Wastelands quickly lock him out of the game.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2 - vs MUD

Hah the mirror! My buddy is pretty much playing the same main, but our sideboards are pretty different.

Game 1: I win the die roll, but open into a potential T2 Karn hand. However, I didn't want to auto lose to Revoker, so I slow roll it to T3 and Karn his Metalworker, prompting a scoop.

-1 All Is Dust
-4 Chalice of the Void
+1 Karn Liberated
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Batterskull
+2 Cursed Totem (since I'm on the draw, he'll have the chance to get down Metalworker first and I need to make sure I can answer it).

Game 2: We both ramp up Monoliths into Thran Dynamos. However, he has more ramp + Lodestone Golem while I answer with double Wurmcoil Engine. Ouch.

2-0 (4-0)

Round 3 - vs Burn

Game 1: He gets down a Goblin Guide, then a Keldon Maurader. My Lodestone Golem eats his Goblin Guide and I drop a Batterskull. He has just enough mana to Price, then Fireblast me for lethal. Ouch.

-1 All Is Dust
-2 Karn Liberated
-4 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Crumbling Sanctuary
+4 Sphere of Resistance
+1 Batterskull

Game 2: I get down a Wurmcoil along with Chalice @ 1 and Chalice @ 2. However, he gets down a Sulfuric Vortex so I'm not gaining life off the Wurmcoil. I have him at 11 with only lands and I punt when I hit him with both my Wurmcoil and Mishra's Factory. I'm at 8 life and he plays Hellspark Elemental (it gets countered), unearths it, swing for 3, Fireblast me and Sulfuric Vortex kills me on my upkeep. If I had left back the Mishra's Factory, I could've blocked the Hellspark and it wouldn't have affected my clock on him. Argh, but deserved. Nothing teaches you like brutally being punished for your mistakes!

2-1 (4-2)

Round 4 - vs Merfolk

Game 1: I win the die roll and lead off with Ancient Tomb into Monolith (resolves). He T1 Aether Vials. I draw Chalice and drop Voltaic Key into Chalice @ 1. He drops a Silvergill revealing Silvergill. Ugh. I get down a Wurmcoil Engine and he is sad. On his turn, he drops Silvergill. I swing in with Wurmcoil, he vials in a Lord and trades both Silvergills for my Wurmcoil. Lord + Standstill comes down. I break the Standstill with All Is Dust, which gets Forced, but it then clears the way for my Batterskull. More Lords come down. Deathtouch Wurm token gets suited up with a Batterskull and he goes to frown town. He eventually deals with that token, but the Batterskull on the Lifelink token goes the distance.

-2 Karn Liberated
+1 Batterskull
+1 All Is Dust

Game 2: I go T1 Key, T2 Monolith (Forced). He goes T2 Lord, then on his T3, he smirks and windmill slams down Energy Flux. I let my Key die and drop a Metalworker. He taps out to play a Merrow Reejerey and attacks me. I eat damage and untap, pay for my Metalworker and activate it showing Chalice, Key, Lodestone, Dynamo and have 1 card remaining in my hand. I drop Key, untap Metalworker and make assloads of mana. I lead off with Lodestone and it gets Forced, pitching his last card. I then reveal the last card in my hand... All Is Dust! Sad times for the fish men. I then get down Chalice @ 2 and Chalice @ 3 and slowly beat him to death with a Mishra's Factory. He goes on uber tilt when I play a Batterskull and he Dazes... *point to Chalice @ 2*. I attack with the Batterskull and he pays 4 life to Dismember it... *point to Chalice @ 3*.

3-1 (6-2)

We chop in the T4 and go home.

[Alex Holland]

I have noticed All is dust becoming more populair in MUD deck lists,
i splash red in my list for magus and bonfire. In case of running red wich card is better as a sweeper allisdust or bonfire?

A benefit of bonfire is that it can be used as a alternate finisher if you have the mana, while all is dust is just very lethal in gaining the upper hand. I do play karn liberated 2x for removing permanents.. what do you think?

[Esper3k]

I have noticed All is dust becoming more populair in MUD deck lists,
i splash red in my list for magus and bonfire. In case of running red wich card is better as a sweeper allisdust or bonfire?

A benefit of bonfire is that it can be used as a alternate finisher if you have the mana, while all is dust is just very lethal in gaining the upper hand. I do play karn liberated 2x for removing permanents.. what do you think?

Well, given that I'm playing a mono brown list, I like All Is Dust more.

Even then, I still like it more since you're not going to consistently be able to Miracle the Bonfire when you want, making it much less castable.

Plus, All Is Dust is yet another way to get rid of pesky enchantments or planeswalkers.

[fogxanic]

I have noticed All is dust becoming more populair in MUD deck lists,
i splash red in my list for magus and bonfire. In case of running red wich card is better as a sweeper allisdust or bonfire?

A benefit of bonfire is that it can be used as a alternate finisher if you have the mana, while all is dust is just very lethal in gaining the upper hand. I do play karn liberated 2x for removing permanents.. what do you think?

Karn is good for exileing ensnaring bridge.

[th3 w1z4rd]

Without Karn, Ensnaring Bridge is an auto-loss for the most part. I boarded out All is Dust every time last tournament, which is strange because I love that card. It's devastating. I would never use red. Magus turns off all of the abilities that make our lands better than other decks' lands, and if people think Metalworker is bad because it's a removal magnet, Goblin Welder is much worse. Usually if you untap with Metalworker, you win. This is not the case with Welder.

[(nameless one)]

This is why I do not mind Forgemaster. If you need to, you can Forgemaster for Spine of Ish Sah.

[Esper3k]

Yeah, I wouldn't cut Karn Liberateds for more All Is Dusts. I was pretty happy with the 2/1 split main and the 1/1 split in the board to shift in either direction post board.

[Alex Holland]

Without Karn, Ensnaring Bridge is an auto-loss for the most part. I boarded out All is Dust every time last tournament, which is strange because I love that card. It's devastating. I would never use red. Magus turns off all of the abilities that make our lands better than other decks' lands, and if people think Metalworker is bad because it's a removal magnet, Goblin Welder is much worse. Usually if you untap with Metalworker, you win. This is not the case with Welder.

Often playing a magus of the moon is a win. So who cares that it makes your tomb a regular mountain? And hes a human like godo so cavern of souls is nice on human in my deck..

[th3 w1z4rd]

Often playing a magus of the moon is a win. So who cares that it makes your tomb a regular mountain? And hes a human like godo so cavern of souls is nice on human in my deck..

But more often it's not. Only against the greediest manabases is it ever even possibly an auto win. Here's a list of decks against which Magus has no or almost no effect whatsoever:

Elves, Death and Taxes, Merfolk, Goblins, all Show and Tell variants, Storm a lot of the time, Belcher, MUD mirrors, Mono anything, Miracles...

Even against RUG, the deck with the greediest manabase, they have so much red burn that they'll just kill him and move on. Even BUG can float mana in response and Decay him. Esper can float a white and Swords him or whatever. Maverick has basics and removal and Knight of the Reliquary can fetch them even if you land Magus and they have none. Or they could GSZ for Knight. Anything with basics and removal doesn't really care. Many people don't fetch till it's necessary anyway. And he can still be countered unless you have a Cavern, although that's not an argument against running him.

Basically, I feel the colorless version of MUD is more consistent and stronger because it's still possible to have red cards and no red mana source, and I feel loading up on better cards like Wurmcoil Engine and Steel Hellkite is better than using Magus and Welder because the latter two are situationally good only.

[Alex Holland]

But more often it's not. Only against the greediest manabases is it ever even possibly an auto win. Here's a list of decks against which Magus has no or almost no effect whatsoever:

Elves, Death and Taxes, Merfolk, Goblins, all Show and Tell variants, Storm a lot of the time, Belcher, MUD mirrors, Mono anything, Miracles...

Even against RUG, the deck with the greediest manabase, they have so much red burn that they'll just kill him and move on. Even BUG can float mana in response and Decay him. Esper can float a white and Swords him or whatever. Maverick has basics and removal and Knight of the Reliquary can fetch them even if you land Magus and they have none. Or they could GSZ for Knight. Anything with basics and removal doesn't really care. Many people don't fetch till it's necessary anyway. And he can still be countered unless you have a Cavern, although that's not an argument against running him.

Basically, I feel the colorless version of MUD is more consistent and stronger because it's still possible to have red cards and no red mana source, and I feel loading up on better cards like Wurmcoil Engine and Steel Hellkite is better than using Magus and Welder because the latter two are situationally good only.

Your too simplistic about it. The ability to make everything a mountain (turn 2!) in combination with wasteland is very good. Yes it dies to removal. So does metalworker. But its amazing against more then one color decks. Why you bring welder in it? I dont use welder. I dont use faithless looting either. Dont be racsist prejudice against red mud :p

And a 2/2 still can be equipped by my mvp godo

[th3 w1z4rd]

Your too simplistic about it. The ability to make everything a mountain (turn 2!) in combination with wasteland is very good. Yes it dies to removal. So does metalworker. But its amazing against more then one color decks. Why you bring welder in it? I dont use welder. I dont use faithless looting either. Dont be racsist prejudice against red mud :p

And a 2/2 still can be equipped by my mvp godo

In combination with Wasteland... Uh how do you use Wasteland for its intended purpose when it's a Mountain? lol. My landbase is Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Rishadan Port, Wasteland, Darksteel Citadel, and Cavern of Souls. Literally all of those are made worse by Magus. And if you don't use welder or looting what do you use?

[Alex Holland]

Certain cards in the game require a certain order of play. Like destroying a dual land with wasteland then playing magus. That hurts. You obviously dont get the staxesque way mud works. It involves dropping roadblocks like lodestone chalice and magus, while accelerating yourself. Should watch dragon stompy and see why magus shines there.
Who cares all ur lands become mountains if it wins you the game?

[bruizar]

Wasteland and Blood Moon have the same purpose -> Hating on non-basics.

[Alex Holland]

Wasteland and Blood Moon have the same purpose -> Hating on non-basics.

Yes so if you run wasteland anyway why not add moon effects. Its a choice with ups and downs but i feel it fits my deck because i chose to run godo anyway.

Currently i have also been experimenting with a manland version: 4 factory 4 mutavault + all the other rishadan port, wasteland, sol lands etc. Thats a lot of land but it could work with enough equipment. Anyone tried something similiar?

[th3 w1z4rd]

Certain cards in the game require a certain order of play. Like destroying a dual land with wasteland then playing magus. That hurts. You obviously dont get the staxesque way mud works. It involves dropping roadblocks like lodestone chalice and magus, while accelerating yourself. Should watch dragon stompy and see why magus shines there.
Who cares all ur lands become mountains if it wins you the game?

Except for the fact that Dragon Stompy sucks. It's horribly inconsistent and a bad deck. Also, MUD Stompy is not a stax deck. Stax is a stax deck. Do some research. I'd much rather drop Wurmcoil Engine or Steel Hellkite alongside my Chalices and Lodestone Golems rather than crap like Magus.

[bruizar]

Except for the fact that Dragon Stompy sucks. It's horribly inconsistent and a bad deck. Also, MUD Stompy is not a stax deck. Stax is a stax deck. Do some research. I'd much rather drop Wurmcoil Engine or Steel Hellkite alongside my Chalices and Lodestone Golems rather than crap like Magus.

Imperial painter also runs moon effect. That deck is quiet a bit more successful than dragon stompy. MUD runs resistors and other speedbumps in order to capitalize on that with big beaters. Stax is a deck that turns the softlock into a hardlock, which is not the aim of this deck. Alex Holland is using the correct name for the deck.


Red offers a lot of wiggle room that mono brown does not have. Moon Effects, Red Elemental Blast, efficient sweepers (Bonfire/Firespout/Rolling Earthquake), Sulfur Elemental, and even things like Shattering Spree. It comes at a cost, but it also provides advantages.

[th3 w1z4rd]

Imperial painter also runs moon effect. That deck is quiet a bit more successful than dragon stompy. MUD runs resistors and other speedbumps in order to capitalize on that with big beaters. Stax is a deck that turns the softlock into a hardlock, which is not the aim of this deck. Alex Holland is using the correct name for the deck.


Red offers a lot of wiggle room that mono brown does not have. Moon Effects, Red Elemental Blast, efficient sweepers (Bonfire/Firespout/Rolling Earthquake), Sulfur Elemental, and even things like Shattering Spree. It comes at a cost, but it also provides advantages.

I get what you're saying but painter does not require much mana to play its important things; MUD does. Crippling your sol lands doesn't help with that. And the concept of MUD Stompy is that your threats are bigger and better than the opponent's (Wurmcoil Engine, Steel Hellkite, Sundering Titan). Anything red sweepers would deal with is inherently dealt with by your creatures' greater stats. Wurmcoil Engine makes Nimble Mongoose, Snapcaster Mage, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge Mystic, and all the rest look like crap. Plus if you play a sweeper it kills your Magus too, which seems bad to me. Plus Magus does nothing if your opponent already has guys in play. Big threats like the ones I just mentioned stop the opponent's attacks.

P.S. I beat Red MUD with my MUD Stompy list all the time.

[lukatron2]

I get what you're saying but painter does not require much mana to play its important things; MUD does. Crippling your sol lands doesn't help with that. And the concept of MUD Stompy is that your threats are bigger and better than the opponent's (Wurmcoil Engine, Steel Hellkite, Sundering Titan). Anything red sweepers would deal with is inherently dealt with by your creatures' greater stats. Wurmcoil Engine makes Nimble Mongoose, Snapcaster Mage, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge Mystic, and all the rest look like crap. Plus if you play a sweeper it kills your Magus too, which seems bad to me. Plus Magus does nothing if your opponent already has guys in play. Big threats like the ones I just mentioned stop the opponent's attacks.

P.S. I beat Red MUD with my MUD Stompy list all the time.

This. Magus and Bloodmoon are HORRIBLE in this deck.

[bruizar]

I get what you're saying but painter does not require much mana to play its important things; MUD does. Crippling your sol lands doesn't help with that. And the concept of MUD Stompy is that your threats are bigger and better than the opponent's (Wurmcoil Engine, Steel Hellkite, Sundering Titan). Anything red sweepers would deal with is inherently dealt with by your creatures' greater stats. Wurmcoil Engine makes Nimble Mongoose, Snapcaster Mage, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge Mystic, and all the rest look like crap. Plus if you play a sweeper it kills your Magus too, which seems bad to me. Plus Magus does nothing if your opponent already has guys in play. Big threats like the ones I just mentioned stop the opponent's attacks.

P.S. I beat Red MUD with my MUD Stompy list all the time.

That's interesting because I have very little troubles with mono brown myself. My one-off Goblin Welder is there to ensure that my cards resolve (important against control decks) and postboard Shattering Spree is a beating. Also, Moltensteel Dragon comes down fast and gets to pump himself up like crazy. 9 times out of 10 Moltensteel Dragon represents a 2 turn clock on his own. The fact that you can drop him down with only four mana means Blood Moon's symmetric effect doesn't bother me. Instead, it helps me pump my dragon.

I fondly remember the game where my opponent played lightning greaves into kuldotha forgemaster into blightsteel colossus and attacked me. I chump blocked so I didn't die to 10 infect. On my turn, I Shattering Spree Lightning Greaves and play Karn to exile Blightsteel Colossus. GG. Goblin Welder is such a beating against Kuldotha Forgemaster too. You can simply weld out the Lightning Greaves to buy yourself an extra turn, and then weld the threat out. Whenever my opponent activates Kuldotha Forgemaster, I feel excited because I either die or win right there. It's pretty much like going all-in with poker.

Also, if you build your red version correctly, you try to keep a lower average CC. This mitigates the issue you described of needing that mana to cast big bombs. Wurmcoil Engine and Steel Hellkite are nice, but Godo + Batterskull + Moltensteel Dragon are cheaper to cast.

I am currently testing out a new colored version and a mono brown version.
One has Plateaus and Arid Mesa to splash Rest in Piece, Wear/Tear in the sideboard, and main deck Stoneforge Mystics.
The other is a 16 post dark depths list. I have no clue where that is going but I still want to test it to see what I can come up with.

[Alex Holland]

That's interesting because I have very little troubles with mono brown myself. My one-off Goblin Welder is there to ensure that my cards resolve (important against control decks) and postboard Shattering Spree is a beating. Also, Moltensteel Dragon comes down fast and gets to pump himself up like crazy. 9 times out of 10 Moltensteel Dragon represents a 2 turn clock on his own. The fact that you can drop him down with only four mana means Blood Moon's symmetric effect doesn't bother me. Instead, it helps me pump my dragon.

I fondly remember the game where my opponent played lightning greaves into kuldotha forgemaster into blightsteel colossus and attacked me. I chump blocked so I didn't die to 10 infect. On my turn, I Shattering Spree Lightning Greaves and play Karn to exile Blightsteel Colossus. GG. Goblin Welder is such a beating against Kuldotha Forgemaster too. You can simply weld out the Lightning Greaves to buy yourself an extra turn, and then weld the threat out. Whenever my opponent activates Kuldotha Forgemaster, I feel excited because I either die or win right there. It's pretty much like going all-in with poker.

Also, if you build your red version correctly, you try to keep a lower average CC. This mitigates the issue you described of needing that mana to cast big bombs. Wurmcoil Engine and Steel Hellkite are nice, but Godo + Batterskull + Moltensteel Dragon are cheaper to cast.

I am currently testing out a new colored version and a mono brown version.
One has Plateaus and Arid Mesa to splash Rest in Piece, Wear/Tear in the sideboard, and main deck Stoneforge Mystics.
The other is a 16 post dark depths list. I have no clue where that is going but I still want to test it to see what I can come up with.

I made a stoneforge build with manlands before, ill post the list here later. Interesting options: sigil of destinction (sink mana in it no equip cost) and moonsilverspear. I only had to drop wasteland and port for it to be any good wich i didnt like.(i added 4 mishra and 4 mutavault instead) Also went without metalworker..

Edit, this my stoneforge build- i didnt like it much:

3#Mox Diamond|28
2#Crucible of Worlds|64

4#Stoneforge Mystic|76
2#Moonsilver Spear|126
2#Sigil of Distinction|69
4#Batterskull|82
1#Sword of Fire and Ice|49

4#Lodestone Golem|76
4#Chalice of the Void|48
3#Wurmcoil Engine|79
3#Spellskite|82

4#Mutavault|66
4#Mishra’s Factory|11
4#Ancient Tomb|29
4#City of Traitors|15
3#Cavern of Souls|126
3#Ancient Den|48

4#Grim Monolith|17

2#Karn Liberated|82

[th3 w1z4rd]

That's interesting because I have very little troubles with mono brown myself. I fondly remember the game where my opponent played lightning greaves into kuldotha forgemaster into blightsteel colossus and attacked me. I chump blocked so I didn't die to 10 infect. On my turn, I Shattering Spree Lightning Greaves and play Karn to exile Blightsteel Colossus. GG. Goblin Welder is such a beating against Kuldotha Forgemaster too. You can simply weld out the Lightning Greaves to buy yourself an extra turn, and then weld the threat out. Whenever my opponent activates Kuldotha Forgemaster, I feel excited because I either die or win right there. It's pretty much like going all-in with poker.


I'm curious how you chump blocked Blightsteel Colossus given that it has trample. Also as I said I don't use Forgemaster. Instead I have Staff of Domination so I can simply win regardless of what Red MUD does. Chalice also shuts off Welder and Shattering Spree unless you have Cavern of Souls for Welder, in which case how are you getting so much red.

[Holly]

He probably chumped with a creature with toughness 2+ ..

Also Chalice doesn't blank Shattering Spree but just the original spell, all copys will still resolve.

[Alex Holland]

I'm curious how you chump blocked Blightsteel Colossus given that it has trample. Also as I said I don't use Forgemaster. Instead I have Staff of Domination so I can simply win regardless of what Red MUD does. Chalice also shuts off Welder and Shattering Spree unless you have Cavern of Souls for Welder, in which case how are you getting so much red.

It seems your Mud is just fantastic, that you discovered the card staff of domination is amazing. you have a decklist for us?

[L10]

Hey Alex, you should really try Sword of Vengeance. Back when I tried a bunch of equipment out with bruizar, I was constantly surprised how good it was, and I find myself searching it with Stoneforge/Godo quite a lot over Sword of X and Y. It makes Lodestone Golem a decent threat because the opponent can't chump block it to death. It also has amazing synergy with Wurmcoil Engine due to Deathtouch + Trample and Deathtouch + First Strike mechanics. Vigilance and Haste are nice bonuses.

[Alex Holland]

Hey Alex, you should really try Sword of Vengeance. Back when I tried a bunch of equipment out with bruizar, I was constantly surprised how good it was, and I find myself searching it with Stoneforge/Godo quite a lot over Sword of X and Y. It makes Lodestone Golem a decent threat because the opponent can't chump block it to death. It also has amazing synergy with Wurmcoil Engine due to Deathtouch + Trample and Deathtouch + First Strike mechanics. Vigilance and Haste are nice bonuses.

Now hold on.. did you tried a deck that used both godo AND stoneforge???

Vigiliance seems very relevant if combined with first strike.. But when would you ever pick a sword over batterskull? I mostly put in 4 batterskulls because hes a 5 drop that never dissapoints and is very hard to remove. If godo can get him for free thats nice but if i have to pay 5 its ok too. MUD doesnt have many 5 drops. And if they do kill the germ i can stick him on a lodestone making a 9/8 vigilance, lifelink. Even on a metalworker hes good. Maybe ill have to try sword of venegance as a one off. Especially the first srike seems ok with wurmcoil, wich i also run as a 4 off.

[bruizar]

I'm curious how you chump blocked Blightsteel Colossus given that it has trample. Also as I said I don't use Forgemaster. Instead I have Staff of Domination so I can simply win regardless of what Red MUD does. Chalice also shuts off Welder and Shattering Spree unless you have Cavern of Souls for Welder, in which case how are you getting so much red.

Well, in all honesty, let us not bicker about the mirror of MUD vs Red MUD. Let us concentrate on problematic matches. Amongst those, RUG Delver for example. How do you plan on getting to 6 (Hellkite/Wurmcoil), 7(Karn/perhaps All is Dust) or 8 (S.Titan) mana when your manabase is under constant pressure? Metalworker doesn't survive all the bolts and counters and wasteland is there to ruin your day (because basic mountains suck in your opinion). A well-placed Spell Pierce on Grim Monolith or Thran Dynamo is all it takes to kill MUD. Metalworker / Staff will not happen against a deck with that much burn spells, so those are dead slots. Tell me, what is your game plan against RUG Delver in the cases when you don't open with the magic Chalice for one.

I'll tell you the red mud plan: Blood Moon and Bonfire of the damned will both likely get countered too, but if you stick one, you either sweep Mongoose and Delver (and hopefully Goyf), or limit the RUG Delver player to casting burn spells, enabling you to resolve your bigger threats. 1 Batterskull is all you need against a burn deck without creatures or counters. I play ATLEAST 8 basic Mountains and usually play 12 (My ideal manabase for redmud is 3 Cavern, 10 Snow-Covered Mountain, 8 sol land, 1 Mouth of Ronom (Slow insurance against hatebears/teeg/attacking jitte), but truth be told, I currently don't have Caverns..)

Post board is hell, because Ancient Grudge comes in. Luckly, we at least access to Blood Moon to protect us from the flashback, and Red Elemental Blast to kill Delver or permission. It still is a punch in the liver though.

[L10]

No. I tried both Stoneforge MUD and Godo MUD, lol. I usually grab the Sword of Vengeance when I have a Wurmcoil Engine and two other threats on the field, where Batterskull becomes redundant. Basically when I feel I have sufficient board control. Deathtouch + Trample is relevant because you only need to allocate one damage to a creature and the rest to the opponent. So even if your opponent's 10/10 Progenitus blocks your Wurmcoil+SoV, you only need to allocate one damage to Progenitus and the 7 to your opponent. It has been relevant in several occasions.

[Esper3k]

I disagree on Blood Moon being that good for us against RUG.

We lose to RUG when they drop a quick threat and can constrain our mana development. While shutting them off from blue spells is very powerful, Blood Moon is very unlikely to come down early enough to matter.

Consider if they drop a Delver/Mongoose on T1 then a Tarmogoyf on T2. At best, we're talking about dropping Blood Moon on T2. If they have a Daze, we just gave them an Enchantment in the yard. If Blood Moon resolves, they still have creatures while we're set back to 2 mana now.

Against Burn/RUG decks, don't forget that Sulfuric Vortex is also pretty commonly played against life gain decks, so Batterskull isn't a guarantee either (on top of PoP really pushing our shit in).

[th3 w1z4rd]

I can't remember the last time I lost to RUG, especially post-board. Literally almost everything in my deck kicks their ass. Chalice, Ratchet Bomb, Trinisphere, Batterskull, Steel Hellkite, Wurmcoil Engine, Sundering Titan, All is Dust... Every time they wasteland me, they aren't playing a threat, and I don't run Forgemaster so Stifle is useless. It is impossible to have threats, counters, burn, and mana denial all at once. I basically drop threats until one sticks and then I win. RUG has zero outs to Wurmcoil Engine and Sundering Titan. I also run Cavern of Souls, so nice countermagic. My deck has too many must-counter spells.

[kingtk3]

I agree with both Esper3k and th3 w1z4rd: Blood Moon is an automatic win against RUG only if it sticks before any of his creatures, but MUD doesn't play Simian Spirit Guides to drop it turn 1 like Dragon Stompy or Big Red, thus it's only realistic if you play first and drop it second turn while RUG uses his first turn to ponder/brainstorm and doesn't have a counter in hand. That's very rare.

Having said that, I have to admit that my matchup against RUG is vary favorable and I cannot recall last time I lost to it in a tournament. Aside chalice@1 that basically stops their deck apart tarmogoyfs, we have many cards that are must counter for them: wurmcoil, hellkite, batterskull, godo, trinisphere, lodestone.

I particularly like trinisphere over blood moon because it can be casted first turn with a monolith and if they don't have a fow they basically lose.
The key in this matchup is to have drop a resistor and have patience, because if they cannot play their spells for free they lose their tempo and their strategy falls apart.
Note that with cavern of souls they simply have no out for one of the creatures above.

[Alex Holland]

Bruizar do you mind sharing your 8+ mountain list? Sounds interesting and ive got some arabian mountains dying to be played!


Overall we need more deck lists here, show what were discussing peeps

[Esper3k]

I actually dislike resistors against RUG quite a bit. RUG's best gameplan against us is to stop our artifact mana while attacking with a creature. If we can't resolve a Monolith or a Dynamo, we're unlikely to cast anything in time to survive. Ancient Grudge is also particularly good in the tempo game against us. Resistors assist them in their gameplan of constraining our mana.

Likewise, if they're Wastelanding us with no threat - that's stupid of them. If they're Wastelanding us and they have a threat out (as is the most common situation), then that's very rough on us.

Yes, they have a tough time beating a resolved Wurmcoil (or really any 6+ drop). The problem has always been getting to play said 6+ drop without dying first. I actually try and push my "bomb" curve down instead of up against them. While All is Dust is amazing against them, you're very unlikely to get to cast / resolve it (on top of it growing their Tarmogoyf if it gets countered).

Lodestone Golem isn't that great against them either since it still only costs them 2 mana to Lightning Bolt it.

The best way I've found to beat RUG is to simply keep hands that have plenty of lands and accelerants. Worry less about opening bombs because any of our bombs will pretty much win the game against them. Making our land drops and getting our mana online is much more key to winning the match.

[th3 w1z4rd]

I actually dislike resistors against RUG quite a bit. RUG's best gameplan against us is to stop our artifact mana while attacking with a creature. If we can't resolve a Monolith or a Dynamo, we're unlikely to cast anything in time to survive. Ancient Grudge is also particularly good in the tempo game against us. Resistors assist them in their gameplan of constraining our mana.

Likewise, if they're Wastelanding us with no threat - that's stupid of them. If they're Wastelanding us and they have a threat out (as is the most common situation), then that's very rough on us.

Yes, they have a tough time beating a resolved Wurmcoil (or really any 6+ drop). The problem has always been getting to play said 6+ drop without dying first. I actually try and push my "bomb" curve down instead of up against them. While All is Dust is amazing against them, you're very unlikely to get to cast / resolve it (on top of it growing their Tarmogoyf if it gets countered).

Lodestone Golem isn't that great against them either since it still only costs them 2 mana to Lightning Bolt it.

The best way I've found to beat RUG is to simply keep hands that have plenty of lands and accelerants. Worry less about opening bombs because any of our bombs will pretty much win the game against them. Making our land drops and getting our mana online is much more key to winning the match.

This.

[th3 w1z4rd]

Just crushed Red MUD 2-0 again. It was a stax type build. Game 1 he got out 2 Thorn of Amethyst, a Tangle Wire, and was attacking with a Simian Spirit Guide. I eventually played Steel Hellkite, killed his thorns, and played Wurmcoil Engine of a Thran Dynamo with Voltaic Key and a land. GG. Game 2 he fails spectacularly. He drops Magus of the Moon turn 1, and I further prove that Magus sucks as I simply play three lands, play Metalworker (nice turn 2 Trinisphere), and use that for Steel Hellkite and Batterskull. GG.

Red MUD, particularly stax style, is inferior to MUD Stompy.

[bruizar]

It was a stax type build. Game 1 he got out 2 Thorn of Amethyst, a Tangle Wire, and was attacking with a Simian Spirit Guide.


Quoted in bold are cards that do not belong in a properly designed red mud list. I'll post my list later this week when i have more time.



Red MUD, particularly stax style, is inferior to MUD Stompy.

MUD is not Stax, thus the variant you played against should be referred to as Red Stax instead of Red Mud or Godo Mud.

[dillonkbase]

Red MUD, particularly stax style, is inferior to MUD Stompy.

While this may be true, I don't play either deck because one beats the other, I play them because they win versus the META. So I don't think your assessment is properly grounded. Sure your fringe deck beat his fringe deck, but most other decks would have crumbled to the magus and 3sphere, while you durdled away your turns and would have lost to other decks.

[Alex Holland]

Red MUD, particularly stax style, is inferior to MUD Stompy.

You make statements based on fale assumptions.

Your first assumption is that the magic meta will always be the same everywhere. Wich is crap. In certain metas certain choices will be best.

i dont regard your meta as very good if a mud player resolves to shimian spirit guide, your sure it wasnt dragon stompy you were facing?

Secondly you assume that magus of the moon sucks because YOUR MUD plays around him. So what? Thats proof he fits MUD very well, and all those complainers who said he did not fit MUD because he will screw all our special lands were WRONG. So your contradicting your earlier statements by doing so!

Even if he's useless he still carries a sword and is a possible win.

[th3 w1z4rd]

You make statements based on fale assumptions.

Your first assumption is that the magic meta will always be the same everywhere. Wich is crap. In certain metas certain choices will be best.

i dont regard your meta as very good if a mud player resolves to shimian spirit guide, your sure it wasnt dragon stompy you were facing?

Secondly you assume that magus of the moon sucks because YOUR MUD plays around him. So what? Thats proof he fits MUD very well, and all those complainers who said he did not fit MUD because he will screw all our special lands were WRONG. So your contradicting your earlier statements by doing so!

Even if he's useless he still carries a sword and is a possible win.

It could have been dragon stompy I guess. I never saw any dragons. Sure I played around him but I won because I had big threats and he spent too many cards to get magus out turn 1 and trinisphere out turn 2, which is my point. In order to get him early enough for him to have any effect, it's gotta be turn 1 and for that you need multiple cards. Plus if he gets countered or killed instantly, even worse. Against RUG he's the worst card ever. They play Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Forked Bolt... Plus if they already have a guy or two out he's useless. If you play Magus against RUG, you're an idiot. I don't use swords, I use 4 Batterskulls.

That match was on cockatrice btw. It doesn't represent my meta. No one in my meta sucks enough to use red in their artifact decks. Also there's a guy who plays Forgemaster MUD at my LGS and I always do better than he does.

[lukatron2]

Just crushed Red MUD 2-0 again. It was a stax type build. Game 1 he got out 2 Thorn of Amethyst, a Tangle Wire, and was attacking with a Simian Spirit Guide. I eventually played Steel Hellkite, killed his thorns, and played Wurmcoil Engine of a Thran Dynamo with Voltaic Key and a land. GG. Game 2 he fails spectacularly. He drops Magus of the Moon turn 1, and I further prove that Magus sucks as I simply play three lands, play Metalworker (nice turn 2 Trinisphere), and use that for Steel Hellkite and Batterskull. GG.

Red MUD, particularly stax style, is inferior to MUD Stompy.

You sound pretty silly as the person you played against was obviously running some janky ass deck and not REAL red MUD. I mean who runs simian spirit guide and tangle wire along with thorn of amethyst main deck? Sounds very home brew jank and not really red MUD at all. I'm a pretty big fan of both Mono brown MUD and red-brown MUD, but in my red MUD version (as well as most others that have posted great placement in big tournaments running the forgemaster build), the only red card in the deck is Goblin Welder, which gives a much better game against blue as it gives the deck 4 more must counter spells.
Anyhow I agree that Magus doesn't belong in this deck. Dragon Stompy Yes. MUD, no. I'd sooner run a heavy blue splash for Upheaval.

On another note, went 4-3 drop in Baltimore a few weeks ago. yup, I could have still made top 64 (probably not top 32), but I had a long drive ahead of me and my friends were waiting around town so I thought I may as well drop and enjoy the rest of the weekend since I had no chance of making top 8.

Lost against:
Merfolk 0-2
First game he had a fast clock/big army and a couple of well played counters.
Second game I lost to Dismember and a fast clock.
This has been a tough match up for me in general and I've only beat it once in a tournament actually. It's definitely not a "problematic match-up" but it aint easy.

Death and Taxes 0-2
Game one took about 35 min and I had him down to 1 but couldn't finish the job. There was a long stalemate with me having a platinum emperion with greaves and a batterskull, and he held me off with flickerwisp tricks, batterskull, cataclysm and other stuff until he got a mirran crusader out with a jitte plus 32+ counters. I scooped eventually once I had no outs and realized it was only a matter of time before he got a mangara lock.
Game two only 15 min left in the round and I mulliganed aggressively which costed me the game.
This match up amongst others made me realize that platinum Emperion is pretty bad. Often I just with he was a second Blightsteel colossus or a platinum angel. I will be cutting him starting next tourney.

Jund
0-2
He won the role, which is pretty crucial in this match-up. Turn one thoughtseize can hurt this deck... A LOT, and it hurt me along with wasteland. Followed up by a big goyf I stood no chance. Game two was pretty much just like game one. Jund is also a really hard match-up for me but it totally depends on the role. If I win the role i'm usually in good shape; especially when Chalice is involved. Wasteland can be this decks biggest nightmare often times, and in this case it totally was.

I beat:
Elves Combo 2-1
12 post 2-1
U/G 12 post 2-0
Shardless BUG 2-0

Land:
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Cavern of Souls

4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Voltaic Key
1 Staff of Domination
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
2 Batterskull
4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite

Some feelings about the card choices based on my matches
1. Batterskulls really underperformed for me but they can also be really amazing in the deck. I'm going to test as a 1 of. I also thought of cutting it entirely and running 3 Steel hellkite instead.
2. I wish I had some maindeck removal, either Karn, Liberated or spine of ish-sah.
3. Still not sure how I feel about Staff of D as a 1 of. It can give you an occassional surprise win or pull you out of tight spots once in a while but usually it's just a win more card in my experience. I want to test it as a 4 of actually. I know it sounds bad, but we are playing a combo deck here right? 3 more staff = higher chances of combo-ing out. I will also run 3 spellskite in the sideboard and 1-2 maindeck when I test this.
4. Emperion should be platinum angel or just cut it to the sideboard.
5. Goblin welder is pretty solid. I'm still not 100% on him as I love my mono brown list/mana base, but Goblin welder does some wonders. Also tricks with grim monolith for pumping up mana are great if you're short on mana.

Also props to all is dust for winning me my first 12 post match up. He got his defenders out and I was about to face a turn 3 monster, but all is dust wiped his mana producers out and I was able to get ahead and stomp.

[lukatron2]

Edit: double post oops

[Alex Holland]

Land:
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Cavern of Souls

4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Voltaic Key
1 Staff of Domination
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
2 Batterskull
4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite

Some feelings about the card choices based on my matches
1. Batterskulls really underperformed for me but they can also be really amazing in the deck. I'm going to test as a 1 of. I also thought of cutting it entirely and running 3 Steel hellkite instead.
2. I wish I had some maindeck removal, either Karn, Liberated or spine of ish-sah.
3. Still not sure how I feel about Staff of D as a 1 of. It can give you an occassional surprise win or pull you out of tight spots once in a while but usually it's just a win more card in my experience. I want to test it as a 4 of actually. I know it sounds bad, but we are playing a combo deck here right? 3 more staff = higher chances of combo-ing out. I will also run 3 spellskite in the sideboard and 1-2 maindeck when I test this.
4. Emperion should be platinum angel or just cut it to the sideboard.
5. Goblin welder is pretty solid. I'm still not 100% on him as I love my mono brown list/mana base, but Goblin welder does some wonders. Also tricks with grim monolith for pumping up mana are great if you're short on mana.

Also props to all is dust for winning me my first 12 post match up. He got his defenders out and I was about to face a turn 3 monster, but all is dust wiped his mana producers out and I was able to get ahead and stomp.

1. Batterskull is a winner against burn. Also against exile effects like swords to p. Hes ace. I run 4 also because hes tge best 5 mana card we have.
2. I run 2-3 karn Liberated. Hes advantage and a clock.
3. I now why you like welder however i think ge fits forgemaster builds more because of the saccing. Plus i dont want my cavern on goblin.. But i think this is the non forgemaster combo thread..
4. Platinum angel is a serious option. 7 mana is better than 8 in this deck i think. Plus evasion! But what matchups should he make better? Maybe ill try him as lucky one off.
5. All you should go try godo. Godo is the man. Nobody expects him right now.

[lukatron2]

1. Batterskull is a winner against burn. Also against exile effects like swords to p. Hes ace. I run 4 also because hes tge best 5 mana card we have.
2. I run 2-3 karn Liberated. Hes advantage and a clock.
3. I now why you like welder however i think ge fits forgemaster builds more because of the saccing. Plus i dont want my cavern on goblin.. But i think this is the non forgemaster combo thread..
4. Platinum angel is a serious option. 7 mana is better than 8 in this deck i think. Plus evasion! But what matchups should he make better? Maybe ill try him as lucky one off.
5. All you should go try godo. Godo is the man. Nobody expects him right now.

uhhh, dude... The first deck posted in this thread, which gave way to MUDs modern day success is a forgemaster list... "...Michael Bomholt (creator of Iggy Pop – the predecessor to the modern Ritual-Based combo archetype) came second at a StarCityGames Legacy Open in Indianapolis with a modernized MUD list. The list featured tools from Urza block and both Mirrodin blocks... Anyhow as far as I know this thread is for all versions of MUD which is cool. It would also be cool to have separate threads. If you want you should start a thread for the stompy build in the new and developmental thread as I haven't seen it post any numbers in any large tournaments ;p

Anyhow yea I've been trying out lists every tournament and Sometimes I run Karn as a 3. I think I'm going to keep him in the deck as a 3 of as he usually rocks the house and gives me some removal.

Angel is a clock, an 8/8 with no evasion can be held off for a long time. At least that's what has happened to me historically when I drop an emperion. you're right, 7 mana vs 8 makes a world of a difference.

Godo seems pretty legit and I would like to test him some time. However I don't own any. A second combat phase seems pretty good. :p

[Alex Holland]

Plus emperion makes that you wont lose and emperion only freezes life total. That could be relevant. Cant see when but could be.. lol.

I actually tought this was a stompy thread since thats all what was discussed here the past century, but they are really different animals stompy and forgemaster.

FOrgemaster had some results in the past but i feel stompy is more versatile and less based on lucky draws. 2014 is going to be a stompy year my friend.

[th3 w1z4rd]

You sound pretty silly as the person you played against was obviously running some janky ass deck and not REAL red MUD. I mean who runs simian spirit guide and tangle wire along with thorn of amethyst main deck? Sounds very home brew jank and not really red MUD at all. I'm a pretty big fan of both Mono brown MUD and red-brown MUD, but in my red MUD version (as well as most others that have posted great placement in big tournaments running the forgemaster build), the only red card in the deck is Goblin Welder, which gives a much better game against blue as it gives the deck 4 more must counter spells.
Anyhow I agree that Magus doesn't belong in this deck. Dragon Stompy Yes. MUD, no. I'd sooner run a heavy blue splash for Upheaval.

On another note, went 4-3 drop in Baltimore a few weeks ago. yup, I could have still made top 64 (probably not top 32), but I had a long drive ahead of me and my friends were waiting around town so I thought I may as well drop and enjoy the rest of the weekend since I had no chance of making top 8.

Lost against:
Merfolk 0-2
First game he had a fast clock/big army and a couple of well played counters.
Second game I lost to Dismember and a fast clock.
This has been a tough match up for me in general and I've only beat it once in a tournament actually. It's definitely not a "problematic match-up" but it aint easy.

Death and Taxes 0-2
Game one took about 35 min and I had him down to 1 but couldn't finish the job. There was a long stalemate with me having a platinum emperion with greaves and a batterskull, and he held me off with flickerwisp tricks, batterskull, cataclysm and other stuff until he got a mirran crusader out with a jitte plus 32+ counters. I scooped eventually once I had no outs and realized it was only a matter of time before he got a mangara lock.
Game two only 15 min left in the round and I mulliganed aggressively which costed me the game.
This match up amongst others made me realize that platinum Emperion is pretty bad. Often I just with he was a second Blightsteel colossus or a platinum angel. I will be cutting him starting next tourney.

Jund
0-2
He won the role, which is pretty crucial in this match-up. Turn one thoughtseize can hurt this deck... A LOT, and it hurt me along with wasteland. Followed up by a big goyf I stood no chance. Game two was pretty much just like game one. Jund is also a really hard match-up for me but it totally depends on the role. If I win the role i'm usually in good shape; especially when Chalice is involved. Wasteland can be this decks biggest nightmare often times, and in this case it totally was.

I beat:
Elves Combo 2-1
12 post 2-1
U/G 12 post 2-0
Shardless BUG 2-0

Land:
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Cavern of Souls

4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Voltaic Key
1 Staff of Domination
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
2 Batterskull
4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite

Some feelings about the card choices based on my matches
1. Batterskulls really underperformed for me but they can also be really amazing in the deck. I'm going to test as a 1 of. I also thought of cutting it entirely and running 3 Steel hellkite instead.
2. I wish I had some maindeck removal, either Karn, Liberated or spine of ish-sah.
3. Still not sure how I feel about Staff of D as a 1 of. It can give you an occassional surprise win or pull you out of tight spots once in a while but usually it's just a win more card in my experience. I want to test it as a 4 of actually. I know it sounds bad, but we are playing a combo deck here right? 3 more staff = higher chances of combo-ing out. I will also run 3 spellskite in the sideboard and 1-2 maindeck when I test this.
4. Emperion should be platinum angel or just cut it to the sideboard.
5. Goblin welder is pretty solid. I'm still not 100% on him as I love my mono brown list/mana base, but Goblin welder does some wonders. Also tricks with grim monolith for pumping up mana are great if you're short on mana.

Also props to all is dust for winning me my first 12 post match up. He got his defenders out and I was about to face a turn 3 monster, but all is dust wiped his mana producers out and I was able to get ahead and stomp.

You lost a game to Twelvepost. Your argument is invalid.

[Alex Holland]

At least he posted a list and some results. Thanks for being arrogant and adding nothing.

[(nameless one)]

At least he posted a list and some results. Thanks for being arrogant and adding nothing.

I think she/he's just full of herself/himself after beating that bastardized Red MUD deck. I would feel high and mighty myself if I achieved the same thing (not really).

[kingtk3]

You lost a game to Twelvepost. Your argument is invalid.


http://tavorankose.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Do-not-feed-the-troll-02.jpg

[th3 w1z4rd]

At least he posted a list and some results. Thanks for being arrogant and adding nothing.

I posted a list and report a page or two ago. I would have been undefeated if I hadn't forgotten that Pithing Needle doesn't affect Metalworker. Admittedly a dumb mistake.

[Alex Holland]

Just found another great piece for my homey godo: a one off argentum armor. Think about it: 9/9 with anihilator 1. That can attack twice each combat. It aint broken but why not add one armor for situations where a free battetskull doesnt help? Godo FTW

[Esper3k]

I posted a list and report a page or two ago. I would have been undefeated if I hadn't forgotten that Pithing Needle doesn't affect Metalworker. Admittedly a dumb mistake.

Heh I had that happen to me before (but it was my opponent playing Pithing Needle on my Metalworker). It was glorious - even better because Metalworker is still a valid card for Pithing Needle to name.

[Alex Holland]

Somebody want to advice on my current build? Im not very happy with lodestone vs my colored cards but hes so good in the deck.

Equipment
1x Argentum Armor
4x Batterskull

Slow down
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Lodestone Golem

Speed up
4x Grim Monolith
2x Thran Dynamo
4x Metalworker

Random stuff
1x Crucible of Worlds

Robots+ godo
4x Wurmcoil Engine
3x Godo, Bandit Warlord

Land
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
2x Mishra’s Factory (winter :p)
3x Mountain (arabian :p)
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

Removal
2x Karn Liberated
2x Bonfire of the Damned


SIdeboard:
3x goblin welder
4x magus of the moon
4x TrInisphere
4x phyrexian revoker

[th3 w1z4rd]

Heh I had that happen to me before (but it was my opponent playing Pithing Needle on my Metalworker). It was glorious - even better because Metalworker is still a valid card for Pithing Needle to name.

That's exactly what I was talking about. My opp played needle and I forgot I could still use worker.

[Esper3k]

That's exactly what I was talking about. My opp played needle and I forgot I could still use worker.

Doh!

On a different note, I was thinking about this some today and with the seemingly rising popularity of Death & Taxes, what cards do you guys consider good or bad in the matchup? I'm playing a MUD (pure MUD, no red) Stompy (so no Forgemaster) list and I'm having a tough time with that.

Here are my thoughts on some cards:

Chalice: While not amazing in the matchup, it's still important to shut off their StP. If we can get it down before their Aether Vial, it can be a real dicking for them too.
Revoker: While normally I wouldn't like them vs a deck that has so many creatures, I think they're still important to shut off Aether Vial, Jitte, Mangara, etc.
Batterskull: They have StP. Their creatures are generally tiny. Batterskull seems awesome here. Probably want the full 4.
Crucible of Worlds: They have Wasteland + Port as well as Revokers / Thalia, so our mana does get constrained against them. It would seem that Crucible is necessary here?
Wurmcoil Engine: As much as I like big artifact dudes against decks chock full of little dudes, StP does make him a sad sad farmer. Plus, I'm assuming they'll bring in stuff like O-Rings which makes him even worse.
Karn Liberated: Yes, Karn is awesome, but is he necessary? Could be since he's one of the few ways we can deal with Revokers and Jitte. He does cost 7 vs a deck running Wasteland/Port/Thalia/Revoker though...
All Is Dust: Again awesome if we can play it. Again a 7 drop vs a deck full of mana denial.
Lodestone Golem: I was thinking maybe he gets the cut? The mana tax doesn't hurt them that much due to low mana costs and Aether Vials. His 3 toughness isn't that amazing against them, although he is very difficult for them to block effectively.

I'm currently not playing any Sundering Titans or Steel Hellkites, pretty much just considering small tweaks to my list (it was a few posts back), essentially considering a few extra Karn/Batterskull/Crucible/AiDs from the board and what to bring out since I already feel most of the cards in the deck are good against them.

Thanks and any thoughts are appreciated!

[lukatron2]

Doh!

On a different note, I was thinking about this some today and with the seemingly rising popularity of Death & Taxes, what cards do you guys consider good or bad in the matchup? I'm playing a MUD (pure MUD, no red) Stompy (so no Forgemaster) list and I'm having a tough time with that.

Here are my thoughts on some cards:

Chalice: While not amazing in the matchup, it's still important to shut off their StP. If we can get it down before their Aether Vial, it can be a real dicking for them too.
Revoker: While normally I wouldn't like them vs a deck that has so many creatures, I think they're still important to shut off Aether Vial, Jitte, Mangara, etc.
Batterskull: They have StP. Their creatures are generally tiny. Batterskull seems awesome here. Probably want the full 4.
Crucible of Worlds: They have Wasteland + Port as well as Revokers / Thalia, so our mana does get constrained against them. It would seem that Crucible is necessary here?
Wurmcoil Engine: As much as I like big artifact dudes against decks chock full of little dudes, StP does make him a sad sad farmer. Plus, I'm assuming they'll bring in stuff like O-Rings which makes him even worse.
Karn Liberated: Yes, Karn is awesome, but is he necessary? Could be since he's one of the few ways we can deal with Revokers and Jitte. He does cost 7 vs a deck running Wasteland/Port/Thalia/Revoker though...
All Is Dust: Again awesome if we can play it. Again a 7 drop vs a deck full of mana denial.
Lodestone Golem: I was thinking maybe he gets the cut? The mana tax doesn't hurt them that much due to low mana costs and Aether Vials. His 3 toughness isn't that amazing against them, although he is very difficult for them to block effectively.

I'm currently not playing any Sundering Titans or Steel Hellkites, pretty much just considering small tweaks to my list (it was a few posts back), essentially considering a few extra Karn/Batterskull/Crucible/AiDs from the board and what to bring out since I already feel most of the cards in the deck are good against them.

Thanks and any thoughts are appreciated!

Thanks for bringing this up! Death and Taxes is generally a really hard match-up for MUD. I've had quite a bit of experience playing against it at my local tournaments (1-2 DnT players at a 14-20 tourney). I have beat it once, but it's a tough one. Also recently I lost to it at the big legacy tournament in baltimore.

I had Batterskull online but it sucked cause his Mirrin Crusader has pro black. Staff of Nin is pretty good against them. It kills Thalia, mom, revoker and combined with voltaic key or multiple copies, you're drawing a lot of cards and killing most of their creatures. The trick is making sure you get to 6 mana. I would run 4 steel hellkite, 2-3 crucible of worlds, 4 phyrexian revoker and 4 goblin welder. Cut godo for welder against blue decks and DnT. It will give you a strong control game which could in theory allow you to become the control player. I really like Karn Liberated and all is dust. if they don't play wasteland turn 1 you can have a turn 2 karn liberated and that can be game over for them a lot of times. Name Mangara or Jitte or vial on the first revoker. I feel it's better to name Mangara cause they can still get a mangara loop with karakas if they have enough mana to reoccur it. Jitte is also a good choice as they cant kill our dudes with -1 -1 jitte counters. Also I would cut 4 lodestone golem in this match up. He's just not very good in this match up.

Also has anyone here tested Ghost Quarter + Crucible? I really want to try running 3 ghost quarter for an essential stripmine each turn against some decks. Even the decks that run a few basics, it's usually only 2 or 3 basics at most.

I'm working on a build that runs Upheaval based on some old metalworker decks

https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=sideboard/ptno03/qf1

[(nameless one)]

I would love to see that Upheaval list. The last time I saw someone cast Upheaval against me was followed with a game winning Psychatog.

[kingtk3]

That's exactly what I was talking about. My opp played needle and I forgot I could still use worker.

That reminds me of the time when I played a mind trick to my opponent naming sol ring with pithing needle, altough Kamigawa was just released and people wasn't familiar with the card ^_^

[Alex Holland]

@lukatron,

Makes sense to at least play welder in a red muds sideboard against blue. I thrown them in my board. Only now poor magus seems unnecesary, because cavern will be on goblin if godo is taken out. what card is essential in a sideboard? I have four spots if i lose the magus guys. Maybe faerie macabre?

[Esper3k]

So GP Houston was in town this weekend... and we still had 10 people show up for our LGS's weekly event, hah!

Serves Pasttimes right for not having any Eternal side events!

Playing the same MUD Stompy list I've been durdling around with just -2 Crumbling Sanctuary, +2 Trinisphere changed in the board (I wanted something a tiny bit faster against Burn and more useful against Storm). 4 rounds, cut to Top 4.

Round 1: vs Mono White Soldiers

This one wasn't very exciting. One of our younger Legacy players (he's in 6th grade) and he doesn't really have much of a collection yet.

Game 1: He actually has an StP for my Metalworker. However, he has no answer to my Batterskull followed by Wurmcoil.

Game 2: He goes T1 Boros Recruit, T2 Raise the Alarm, T3 Raise the Alarm, T4 Raise the Alarm... I actually start to get worried because I open a double Ancient Tomb hand, but he didn't have an answer to my Metalworker, which lets me poop out a Wurmcoil and Batterskull when I get to untap with it.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2: vs 4 color Deathblade

Game 1: This game goes massively long as I spend much of the game sitting around Porting & Wastelanding him but he draws 3 StPs and has Forces for my bombs. Eventually, I finally stick Karn Liberated and Karn unanswered grinds him out of the game.

-3 Voltaic Key
+1 Batterskull
+1 Karn Liberated
+1 Crucible of Worlds

Game 2: I keep a 2 lander, but open with Monolith, Crucible, Batterskull, Karn, Chalice. He doesn't have an answer to my Chalice @ 1 on T2, but does have a T3 Clique for my draw step. I haven't drawn a land yet, but he sees a another Chalice and Cliques that away. Of course, that draws me into my next land, I drop Monolith and things get rolling from there. I win on T4 of Turns with dubs Batterskull and Karn removing his last blocker.

2-0 (4-0)

Round 3 - vs Hypergenesis/Eureka

I scouted around in between rounds so I knew what he was playing (which was very key in Game 1).

Game 1: Knowing what I'm up against, I drop Chalice @ 0 on T1 and drop a Revoker naming Elvish Spirit Guide, much to my opponent's great sadness. He eventually Beast Within's the Chalice, but I have a second one in my hand and my Beast, Revoker, and eventually Batterskull get him.

-1 Crucible of Worlds
-3 Voltaic Key
-1 Batterskull
+4 Sphere of Resistance
+2 Trinisphere

Game 2: I open with a T1 Revoker on ESG. T2, I drop a Lodestone Golem and in response, he Beast Withins my Revoker. On his T3, he plays an Ancient Tomb (so he has Forest, 2x Ancient Tomb), pitches ESG and plays Eureka. Ugh. First thing he drops is Angel of Serenity and I look sadly at my Wurmcoil in my hand. A second Angel comes down while I drop lands and artifact mana. I actually hard cast my Wurmcoil on my turn, but it's not enough to race the double angels (I had taken some damage from Ancient Tombs). Of course, my next two draws are Sphere and Trinisphere. Thanks, deck!

Game 3: I keep a 3 lander of Port, Wasteland, Wasteland along with Revoker, Sphere, Monolith, Wurmcoil. This game goes a little long as neither of us draw any lands for awhile and I have to keep Porting his Forest to keep him off of GG. He has an Island, but I'm ok with him playing Show & Tell due to the Wurmcoil (I can race Progenitus with it). I play the odds that my 23 land deck will cough up a land before his combo deck does and my faith pays off, which allows me to drop Monolith while continuing to Port him and that lets me lock him out with the double Lodestone Golems I've drawn by this time.

3-0 (6-1)

Round 4 - vs Affinity with Stoneforge Mystic & Tezzeret

SFM in Affinity is pretty interesting. There's actually very few Affinity cards left in this list, but having SFM to fetch up Batterskulls, Jittes, and Cranial Platings is actually pretty scary. It's also a funny matchup because we're playing little artifacts vs big artifacts!

Game 1: Game drags on and he has triple Dispatch to kill my dudes, doh! I All is Dust his board away, but he rips Tezzeret off the top and his ultimate kills me dead.

-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 All is Dust
+1 Karn Liberated (I need more answers to Equipment)
+1 Batterskull

Game 2: He mulls to 5 and drops Mox Opal, Glimmervoid. I apologize because I have the T2 Karn hand and Karn away his Opal...

Game 3: He gets out a T2 Etched Champion, but I have Phyrexian Revoker to hold him off! Champion actually does a pretty good job of holding back my Batterskull though, but big daddy Karn comes down and starts eating away his board until he runs out of things to stop be.

4-0 (8-2)

Top 4: vs Affinity

Normally we split in T4, but with so few people, the payout wasn't that hot, so we played the T4!

Game 1: I open with Chalice @ 1 followed shortly after by Wurmcoil Engine.
Game 2: I double Wasteland him early on and he continues to draw lands while I don't. Doh!
Game 3: I untap with Metalworker and vomit forth my hand.

5-0 (10-3)

I split with my buddy in the finals and go get some food.

Still having a blast playing in the MUD!

[Alex Holland]

Nice that mud still kicks ass- and as usual karn wins many games!

[Esper3k]

Nice that mud still kicks ass- and as usual karn wins many games!

Yeah against non-combo decks, powering out a fast Karn feels like cheating.

[kingtk3]

I always loved Karn but the matchups where I need him most are the GWx, but they all play Gaddock Teeg so I sadly switched my Karns for Ratchet Bombs

[Esper3k]

Karn is ok against those decks, but I actually don't like him as much against the more aggressive GWx decks since they tend to run Thalia, so you're really double taxing casting him between Thalia and Lodestone. All Is Dust is actually better, imo, since it just completely sweeps their board for the same cost as Karn.

Honestly, against the more aggro decks, my game plan is usually to just crush them with Wurmcoils & Batterskulls. Ideally, you get out a Chalice @ 1 as well to protect your Wurmcoils from StP (this is where Batterskull really shines compared to Wurmcoil).

[(nameless one)]

Isn't Karn great against Miracle Control and Blade Control decks since they have little to no means of dealing with Planeswalkers?

[Esper3k]

Isn't Karn great against Miracle Control and Blade Control decks since they have little to no means of dealing with Planeswalkers?

Yes, Karn is really there for the control matchups. Aggro decks generally have an easier time dealing with Planeswalkers due to simply just being able to swarm them over with dudes.

Karn is tougher than your normal Planeswalker, true, but he's not really there for the aggro matchups. Things like Batterskull, Wurmcoil, All is Dust are what will generally win our aggro battles for us.

[(nameless one)]

So Karn should be a sideboard card by delegation right? Although that said, I guess it all depends on the metagame.

How often do people win with Karn against non control decks?

[Esper3k]

So Karn should be a sideboard card by delegation right? Although that said, I guess it all depends on the metagame.

How often do people win with Karn against non control decks?

I play the Stompy version of MUD (pure brown!), so I'm playing 2 main, one in the board.

When you play Karn, you will almost never win with his ultimate (I have in fact, never gotten to ultimate with him). Typically, he's just going to sit there eating lands or anything threatening while you beat them to death with big metal monsters.

So, Karn rarely single handedly directly wins on his own, but he affects the board so much (even if your opponents kill him, they tend to have to use so many resources to do it) that he "wins" the game that way.

I keep Karn in against mid range / control. He generally comes out against fast combo that has few permanents and aggro.

[Alex Holland]

While all is dust destroys all colored permanents karn can also remove annoying lands.

+ he controls. When u play all is dust your opponent can play a moat next turn (just a random example). Karn will still be ready to deal with it while all is dust is gone.

So i prefer karn! Especially with stompy we should choose control over big bang style cards. I think i go for 2-3 karn main and 1-2 all is dust..

[Esper3k]

While all is dust destroys all colored permanents karn can also remove annoying lands.

+ he controls. When u play all is dust your opponent can play a moat next turn (just a random example). Karn will still be ready to deal with it while all is dust is gone.

So i prefer karn! Especially with stompy we should choose control over big bang style cards. I think i go for 2-3 karn main and 1-2 all is dust..

Exactly, Karn is great when you need pinpoint answers to specific annoying permanents or if you need to grind out a game (ie, keep them mana denied under a Lodestone Golem while you Port them, etc.).

All Is Dust is for those aggro matchups where you're getting swarmed down by 3 Merfolk Lords or something.

I play 2 Karn, 1 AiDs main and one of each in the board.

[(nameless one)]

I did a small update with the opening post. However, I haven't updated my "personal list".

Feel free to criticize