[Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

[TheYoungster]

Not sure if my MUD 8 moon belongs here or the Dragon Stompy thread. Anyway I'm running this list to great success, specifically to rape BUG.

4 Chalice
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Lodestone
4 Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil
1 Sundering Titan
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Diamond

6 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Darksteel Citadel

The deck is basically MUD with moons. I've trimmed all the high casting cost stuff for moons because in this meta, resolved moon= gg. Doesn't matter if you can't cast your high cc stuff with a moon in play, if you resolve it you've won. It's also not too difficult to cast a Wurmcoil off basic mountains and a Grim Monolith or Metalworker.

Plan A is the Moon screw plan and Plan B is the MUD stompy plan. If the moons get countered or destroyed, the deck shifts to MUD monsters.

Why not just play Dragon stompy? Because 3 cc and 4 cc Red creatures are terrible. Rabble master and mogg catcher? Cmon, they can't stand up to SFM, Tarmogoyf and Co.

The issue I had with Dragon Stompy is that once plan A (Moon Plan) fails, the rest of the deck is too underpowered to put up a fight. By combining MUDs powerful base with moons, it's become a pretty strong wrecking ball.

I think that going all in on blood moon is a terrible plan. What if they already have a threat in play and you can't cast anything to out class it or race it. I think this deck just looks like the weakest parts of both strategies. You don't have the same mana acceleration that dragonstompy does so you can't drop a turn 1 moon and you don't have the same lategame staying power. Imagine you play against miracles, a deck that is generally largely immune to blood moon. Now you have 8 useless cards that screw you more than the opponent that you have the chance to draw while you are trying to go long. MUD and dragonstompy already have an issue with top decking like shit, MUD makes up for it with it's "bombs" like wurmcoil, titan, or karn which a lot of decks can't deal with and dragonstompy makes it up with explosiveness, and this deck basically just plays a weak dragonstompy gameplan with a weak MUD gameplan.

[ivanpei]

My issue with the original mud lists is that your bombs cost too much. The main issue is that once Metalworker gets killed and Grim Monolith has been tapped, the MUD deck stalls out. I've come to realise that even MUD can run only so many high cc cards like Wurmcoil and Karn.

I then started to look around for lower cc cards that are splashy enough. The best ones were still the moons. Powering the out is easy. We have the same 8 sol lands manabase. Instead of SSG, we have lotus Petal which much decks are already running. Instead of chrome we have Mox Diamond. The acceleration base is similar to the Forgemaster Welder builds.

I've played all sorts of mud lists including the an dynamo - all is dust ones. They were really slow and fragile. It's up to you if you think it's junk, but you should try it out. It will surprise you.

[whatwas]

My issue with the original mud lists is that your bombs cost too much. The main issue is that once Metalworker gets killed and Grim Monolith has been tapped, the MUD deck stalls out. I've come to realise that even MUD can run only so many high cc cards like Wurmcoil and Karn.

I then started to look around for lower cc cards that are splashy enough. The best ones were still the moons. Powering the out is easy. We have the same 8 sol lands manabase. Instead of SSG, we have lotus Petal which much decks are already running. Instead of chrome we have Mox Diamond. The acceleration base is similar to the Forgemaster Welder builds.

I've played all sorts of mud lists including the an dynamo - all is dust ones. They were really slow and fragile. It's up to you if you think it's junk, but you should try it out. It will surprise you.



I really wish blood moon in mono red was good. The problem I have with moons is that it's not good enough to not run chalice and even if it were, it turns off fetches + top which was the first thing I wanted to suggest when I looked at your list. Is the land base a problem for you? If you wanna run moon effects, why not just play painter's stone?

I suggest starting an idea for a new deck with the actual win con, then see if blood moon cuts it. Bc an enchantment that only effects nonbasic lands isn't GG in most matches, like sneak and show, miracles, nic fit, elves(which is everywhere), dredge, maverick, white wenie or "death and taxes", goblins, burn, and much more.

[Sleight]

The issue of the curve has been brought up before. The general choice is to run the goblin welder build to lower your cmc along with create gy recursion,

Other Creatures to consider would be Revoker and Batterskull to lower the cmc while continuing the plan A of Lock out and play big dumb idiots.
Look back through and you can see plenty of ideas in lists to lower cmc without bringing in Moons.

About moon in Mud. Blood Moon works best in iPainter. The reason it does so well in that deck is because it can be pushed out really quick through sol lands and SSG. Once blood moon is out in a painter list, the player can generally run the rest of the game with as little 2 lands in play. MUD does not have this luxury. We are trying to get those big dudes out along with soft lock our opponent. While we do have Monolith and Metalworker, they are not enough to get the mana to consistently cast our hand (even with a semi lower cmc).

Also Sundering Titan + 8 Moons seems kinda poo...



-MEGA EDIT-
*in Unreal Tournament voice

[ivanpei]

Sundering Titan is for Forgemaster. And yes I have managed to hard cast Sundering Titan before. I'm ok if you guys aren't convinced with the list. Im having the same discussion over on the dragon stompy thread for those who are interested.

[Bobmans]

I think overall the protection suite of 8moon + Trinisphere + Chalice along with acceleration in the form of sol lands + Petals + SSG (or whatever) is really really powerful. It can lock out a lot of decks as early as T1, but (aside from 8moon on greedy manabases) decks can come back. The question is, how fast and how consistently can you finish the game? MUD shells on itself have a very quick comboish game, but at times can be rather clunky. "polluting" the manabase into needing more red and adding more non-artifacts will, as i suspect, make the deck more clunky.

I am skeptical, but i really like that "lock-out-of-the-game" lists T1. I will try it some time.

[whatwas]

I'll be playing my list from a few pages back this week at side events for GP Orlando. Probably adding a SDT or 2 for a change, maybe in place of keys. Decided not to run sundering titan or doom engine. Hopefully I won't get my butt kicked by elves and infect.

[(nameless one)]

My issue with the original mud lists is that your bombs cost too much. The main issue is that once Metalworker gets killed and Grim Monolith has been tapped, the MUD deck stalls out. I've come to realise that even MUD can run only so many high cc cards like Wurmcoil and Karn.

I then started to look around for lower cc cards that are splashy enough. The best ones were still the moons. Powering the out is easy. We have the same 8 sol lands manabase. Instead of SSG, we have lotus Petal which much decks are already running. Instead of chrome we have Mox Diamond. The acceleration base is similar to the Forgemaster Welder builds.

I've played all sorts of mud lists including the an dynamo - all is dust ones. They were really slow and fragile. It's up to you if you think it's junk, but you should try it out. It will surprise you.

I have had this similar issue before as well. What I did instead of Moons was load up on Sphere effects and fuel them with 12post mana base.

It essentially does the same thing but isn't dead again decks that disregard moons. They still can't cast anything while you have 2-3 mana to do your thing. It also helps to lower the overall casting cost of the deck like what you said. I know 12post will create tons of mana but resistors also affect you.

[Bobmans]

I have had this similar issue before as well. What I did instead of Moons was load up on Sphere effects and fuel them with 12post mana base.

It essentially does the same thing but isn't dead again decks that disregard moons. They still can't cast anything while you have 2-3 mana to do your thing. It also helps to lower the overall casting cost of the deck like what you said. I know 12post will create tons of mana but resistors also affect you.

You have been testing this quite a bit as i read back the thread. At what point are you currently at testing this?

Last weekend i have done the exact opposite and took out all the protection mainboard. The list is near similar to Zac Hicks in the OP. It was fast. O my. I overloaded on Patriot (2-1), Storm (2-0 (10 minute match)), Lost to dredge (1-2) Went for Blightsteel game 1, while i should have gotten Platinum Emporium as most dredge have no out against that game 1. And 2x Miracles (1-2) and (1-1). Both Miracles matchups where close, but it basiscly comes down to who has the more cards to play/disrupt... I found that the deck was on fire and it was actually harder to disrupt since nearly everything i drew/casted was business.

[TheYoungster]

My issue with the original mud lists is that your bombs cost too much. The main issue is that once Metalworker gets killed and Grim Monolith has been tapped, the MUD deck stalls out. I've come to realise that even MUD can run only so many high cc cards like Wurmcoil and Karn.

I then started to look around for lower cc cards that are splashy enough. The best ones were still the moons. Powering the out is easy. We have the same 8 sol lands manabase. Instead of SSG, we have lotus Petal which much decks are already running. Instead of chrome we have Mox Diamond. The acceleration base is similar to the Forgemaster Welder builds.

I've played all sorts of mud lists including the an dynamo - all is dust ones. They were really slow and fragile. It's up to you if you think it's junk, but you should try it out. It will surprise you.

My main problem with the deck is that it doesn't solve the main problem of either archetype which is consistency. The thing that really holds MUD back from being a tier 1 deck is the fact that the deck is reasonably inconsistent. Compound the fact that you are playing a deck that isn't as good at the dragonstompy plan as dragonstompy or as good at the MUD plan as MUD is concerning. I don't want to discredit it as I have very little testing with it so far, only a couple games, but as of now it just seems like a weaker version of both decks.

[honz]

I'll be playing my list from a few pages back this week at side events for GP Orlando. Probably adding a SDT or 2 for a change, maybe in place of keys. Decided not to run sundering titan or doom engine. Hopefully I won't get my butt kicked by elves and infect.

Best of luck in orlando, here are some thoughts for you. I never liked SDT, since the decks only shuffle effect is kuldotha (and you should win after a kuldotha activate) meaning it only really cheats something for 1 turn, then you're back to topdeck mode. SDT gets better with voltaic key, but that's asking for 2 cards, and 2-3 mana a turn to draw an extra card (not to mention chalice problems). I have been running 1-2 coercive portals and have been damn impressed. They get boarded out against faster decks, but something to look into.

Infect is a pretty terrible matchup. Running platinum angel somewhere in the 75 would help.

I think 1 batterskull and 1 wurmcoil engine is preferable to 2 wurmcoils. Each card has its relative merits, and boards states where it is preferable to the other, while they fill essentially the same roll (a big beater that is hard to remove and gains life).

I also think 4 kudlothas and 4 cavern of souls is mandatory. I always want a kuldotha in my hand, always. And cavern helps a greedy deck ignore spell pierce/daze/force, makes colored mana for goblin welder, and helps welder get around chalice.

Just some thoughts, hope it helps

[whatwas]

Best of luck in orlando, here are some thoughts for you. I never liked SDT, since the decks only shuffle effect is kuldotha (and you should win after a kuldotha activate) meaning it only really cheats something for 1 turn, then you're back to topdeck mode. SDT gets better with voltaic key, but that's asking for 2 cards, and 2-3 mana a turn to draw an extra card (not to mention chalice problems). I have been running 1-2 coercive portals and have been damn impressed. They get boarded out against faster decks, but something to look into.

Infect is a pretty terrible matchup. Running platinum angel somewhere in the 75 would help.

I think 1 batterskull and 1 wurmcoil engine is preferable to 2 wurmcoils. Each card has its relative merits, and boards states where it is preferable to the other, while they fill essentially the same roll (a big beater that is hard to remove and gains life).

I also think 4 kudlothas and 4 cavern of souls is mandatory. I always want a kuldotha in my hand, always. And cavern helps a greedy deck ignore spell pierce/daze/force, makes colored mana for goblin welder, and helps welder get around chalice.

Just some thoughts, hope it helps

Thanks! I agree completely. The only thing I'm not sure on its portals. But hey if all for fun this weekend anyways and I get the free batterskull for attendance and free entry to one side event. What the hay. lol.

[Sleight]

I have been play testing my list for awhile now. I recently have added a main board spellskite for the infect match.

The Spellskite has been doing miracles. It also has shored up burn a bit too.

[whatwas]

I have been play testing my list for awhile now. I recently have added a main board spellskite for the infect match.

The Spellskite has been doing miracles. It also has shored up burn a bit too.
Sounds like a great idea.

[Sleight]

After testing today I am afraid of that u/r delver list with treasure cruise. I was only winning with nut hands.

[Barbed Blightning]

After testing today I am afraid of that u/r delver list with treasure cruise. I was only winning with nut hands.
Has Platinum Emperion been discussed as an option against that?

[Sleight]

I just took mine out of my list. I thought it seemed too broad and that having two batterskull in the 75 made most of those matches good enough. I just replaced the emperion with sundering titan and I think I like it more as a target.

That being said I think emperion is the best target in that match.
The problem is it is hard to live to a forgemaster activation a lot of the time. Anyone who plays 12 post list, does glimmer post help in these type of matches?

[Bobmans]

I think that 12post lists are too slow against decks like UR Delve or Burn. The list from Zac Hicks in the OP is actually doing a much better job, although that list needs some slight tweaking. Being able to consistently land a Platinum Emporium on t3 is soo good. Cavern of Souls on construct can be key here. G2/3 i think T1 3sphere is better to go for then Chalice @ 1. 3sphere disables every spell they have instead of half of them. No more free Daze or FoW. Also most Artifact hate costs 2 since they know it destroy a Chalice @ 1. In some cases a Sundering Titan can be more crippling with 3sphere out then a Platinum Emporium as it sets UR lists 2 turns back during.

Sundering Titan is still important in the match-ups where Platinum Emporium is less good. I will always be running a 1/1 split and have a 1/1 split on the board so i can board them in against them wedged coloured greedy Delver or Jund decks.

[honz]

UR delver/young pyro is another pretty poor matchup. Running some number of thousand-year elixir is helpful. Elixir allows you to actually use metalworkers, and gives you a better chance/faster use of kuldotha. Lightning greaves is still good here too, but running elixir as well gives you a better chance of using your money cards (metalworker and kuldotha).

This is also a matchup where you want 4x cavern of souls to ignore daze/force. Ratchet bombs in the board are nice too. I would say silent arbiter is okay, but delver makes the arbiter pretty meh. If you are running red for welder/moon, pyroclasm or something like it (i.e. bonfire of the damned) is an option if you are expecting alot of young pryo and aggro decks (which seem rather popular to me).

Just a small point, but if you are running 1 platinum emperion in the main and 1 in the SB, i would suggest you change the 1 in the SB to platinum angel for the infect matchup. Obviously emperion is better against burn, but angel is still relevant against burn, and actually does something against infect (and to a lesser extent, painter/stone and any helm/rip deck).

[bruizar]

Here is my latest build: All-in-Tinker

MAINDECK:
__________________
Bombs
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Possessed Portal
1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Sundering Titan
__________________
Misc.
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Liquimetal Coating
1x Lightning Greaves
__________________
Tinkers
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Arcum Dagsson
2x Karn, Silver Golem
__________________
Creatures
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Metalworker
1x Spellskite
__________________
Ramp
3x Grim Monolith
2x Voltaic Key
_____________________
Land
1x Island
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
3x Mishra’s Factory


SIDEBOARD:
_____________________
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Darksteel Forge
2x Tormod’s Crypt
4x Flusterstorm
4x Trinisphere
3x Blue Elemental Blast

GAMEPLAN
The reason why I made this deck is because Arcum Dagsson always looked much stronger to me than Kuldotha Forgemaster, and the fact that the Kuldotha Forgemaster builds have been more successful than those that do not run it. My fascination with Arcum Dagsson started with Kuldotha Forgemaster. I've often played against Kuldotha Forgemaster players and managed to disrupt the activation. That basically results in a one-sided Oblivion Stone. Arcum Dagsson is much more friendly to your board position, tinkering artifacts at a 1 to 1 ratio instead of a 3 to 1 ratio. The caveat is that you must sacrifice an artifact creature, and that you tinker a non-creature artifact in exchange. Another advantage is that Arcum Dagsson can tinker away your opponent's creatures if they become artifacts. If you have a Voltaic Key out, you can activate Arcum Dagsson, tinker for a Mycosynth Lattice and untap Arcum Dagsson using your Voltaic Key to activate it again.

SCD
Liquimetal Coating
- Used with Arcum Dagsson to send opponent's creatures to the graveyard.
- Used with Kuldotha Forgemaster to turn a non-artifact land into an artifact -> Sack liquimetal coating, land and Kuldotha Forgemaster to tinker
- Used with Karn, Silver Golem to destroy lands. Add Voltaic Key to chain gun lands.

Mishra's Factory
Fodder for Arcum Dagsson and Kuldotha Forgemaster

Arcum Dagsson
- Tinker for Lattice, then tinker away opponent's creatures
- Tinker away opponent's creatures with Liquimetal Coating

Karn, Silver Golem
- With Mycosynth Lattice or Liquimetal Coating to machine gun lands.

Flusterstorm
One mana counter that dodges Chalice of the Void.

[Barbed Blightning]

Fairly certain the second Coating trick does not work. There is no artifact creature to sacrifice for the second activation, therefore ability fizzles.

List looks weird but cool I guess. Kinda cute with all the separate parts. You could honestly just lose Forgemaster all together.

[Sleight]

U/R scares me. Let's just hope I can ride COTV all the way in Minnesota along with Jersey. I can post my current list with mishra/blinkmoth manabase later if anyone is interested. Besides u/r and some midrange matches, it has been doing really solid.

[Barbed Blightning]

CotV @ 1 shits all over them, save Cruise and Pyro. You'll be fine.

[Sleight]

In play testing a resolved swiftspear was a nightmare as well. Casting 1 drops into cotv still pumped through more damage than I'd like to see.

Perhaps I should have been mulling more aggressively to lock pieces. The games I lost were when I assumed I could bait all permission first then land a threat. Cruise made that basically impossible it seemed. They ALWAYS have it..

[Bobmans]

In play testing a resolved swiftspear was a nightmare as well. Casting 1 drops into cotv still pumped through more damage than I'd like to see.

Perhaps I should have been mulling more aggressively to lock pieces. The games I lost were when I assumed I could bait all permission first then land a threat. Cruise made that basically impossible it seemed. They ALWAYS have it..

As i said earlier, i think 3sphere is the way to go. T1 you can land it with a sol land and a petal/mox or grim monolith. If they counter it you can welder (thru Caverns) it back (CotV cannot). Taking some damage is no problem. But when you connect with a Wurmcoil Engine or you get a Platinum Emperion (with greaves) you're done.

[Sleight]

Thanks for the pointers. I'll have to do more testing against that list along with infect. I seem to do alright against infect, but every turn can be super scary without a trinisphere/spellskite out.

[whatwas]

Hey guys, GPOrlando was a blast, playing mud earned me 15 packs across 2 legacy challenges (4 rounds of Swiss). While this is probably the one deck I have had the most fun with since cracking my first urza's saga pack; it was time for this rusty, little metalworker to hang up his muddy lightning greaves for the last time. I ended the event today with quite a few dollars extra and a empty deck box. I hope this post doesn't discourage other planeswalkers. It's been a nice run ladies and gentlemen. Good luck!

[Sleight]

Hey guys, GPOrlando was a blast, playing mud earned me 15 packs across 2 legacy challenges (4 rounds of Swiss). While this is probably the one deck I have had the most fun with since cracking my first urza's saga pack; it was time for this rusty, little metalworker to hang up his muddy lightning greaves for the last time. I ended the event today with quite a few dollars extra and a empty deck box. I hope this post doesn't discourage other planeswalkers. It's been a nice run ladies and gentlemen. Good luck!

Best of luck to you! I've learned a lot about Mono Brown from looking at lists and strategy you have posted on this forum.

[whatwas]

Best of luck to you! I've learned a lot about Mono Brown from looking at lists and strategy you have posted on this forum.
Thanks!

[Bobmans]

Hey guys, GPOrlando was a blast, playing mud earned me 15 packs across 2 legacy challenges (4 rounds of Swiss). While this is probably the one deck I have had the most fun with since cracking my first urza's saga pack; it was time for this rusty, little metalworker to hang up his muddy lightning greaves for the last time. I ended the event today with quite a few dollars extra and a empty deck box. I hope this post doesn't discourage other planeswalkers. It's been a nice run ladies and gentlemen. Good luck!

Then we share the sentiment for the Urza Block. Loved playing Wildfire- and later Tinker.dec back in the days. Pity to loose a MUD fanatic. Good luck!

[whatwas]

Then we share the sentiment for the Urza Block. Loved playing Wildfire- and later Tinker.dec back in the days. Pity to loose a MUD fanatic. Good luck!
So many memories with that block, I remember when I bought the wildfire championship deck and loved berating other friend's zoo decks into the ground with it. I never got the chance to build ticker but went up against it in a lot of "type 1" tournaments. lol

[Bobmans]

So many memories with that block, I remember when I bought the wildfire championship deck and loved berating other friend's zoo decks into the ground with it. I never got the chance to build ticker but went up against it in a lot of "type 1" tournaments. lol

Wildfire is pretty broken. Still trying to find a legacy shell to build around it. Resolving one T3-5 must be like game over for most decks. Also Tinker,... Can't remeber how many times i have tinkered into a Phyrexian Processor and payed 10 life to quickly get 10/10 tokens, lol. If it where not banned it would be soooo broken. T1, Solland, Mox Diamond, Tinker into Blighsteel Colossus, go...

[Brentane]

Hi guys, deciding whether to build Welder or 12-Post build. Thinking Welder would be best, but Wasteland has no use in my meta. Which is better to build?

[TheYoungster]

Hi guys, deciding whether to build Welder or 12-Post build. Thinking Welder would be best, but Wasteland has no use in my meta. Which is better to build?

I have played MUD post for quite a bit with only very limited experience with the Welder version. I do think that the welder version is less consistent, though I could easily be wrong, and the post version has an easier time going over the top of decks like Miracles. The welder version always seemed more dependent on metalworker to me and cloudpost helps get away from that, as there is a lot of match ups where metalworker isn't safe or just lack luster, and there are plenty of times when you don't draw it. I also never liked the fact that you either don't and cannot play chalice of the void as well since you are adding 1 drops to the deck, and chalice of the void was what originally drew me to the archetype. All in all I think it is personal preference, I don't think either version is inherently better though I personally prefer the 12 post version.

[Mr. Froggy]

Hi guys, deciding whether to build Welder or 12-Post build. Thinking Welder would be best, but Wasteland has no use in my meta. Which is better to build?

I love Welder MUD, I feel like the little Goblin gives the deck so much redundancy. Sure there's the nonbo of Chalice at 1, but his ability makes up for it.

[honz]

Hi guys, deciding whether to build Welder or 12-Post build. Thinking Welder would be best, but Wasteland has no use in my meta. Which is better to build?

Both versions want to run wasteland, and not having it is detrimental to both. The effectiveness of lodestone golem, trinisphere, sundering titan and even chalice of the void is hurt by not running wasteland.

Read the thread, the welder versus non-welder debate has been had a million times. The welder lists are faster and more explosive, but because of this are less consistant. The cloudpost lists have more inevitability and are better lategame, but because of this are slower and struggle more against faster decks.

Both versions are highly susceptible to wasteland, and heavily reliant on metalworker and kuldotha. I prefer the welder version as I think cavern of souls is just too good to not run 4 of. The larger number of artifact lands in the welder lists also makes kuldotha activations easier and metalworker activations more potent. But they are both good, and 4 games outa 5 games you won't even notice the difference.



The welder version always seemed more dependent on metalworker to me and cloudpost helps get away from that, as there is a lot of match ups where metalworker isn't safe or just lack luster, and there are plenty of times when you don't draw it. I also never liked the fact that you either don't and cannot play chalice of the void as well since you are adding 1 drops to the deck

I just thought I should mention that the welder version is more reliant on metalworker, however it plays more cards like lightning greaves and thousand-year elixir and cavern of souls to protect the metalworkers. It also has the welders to get it back into play if it dies.

And most welder lists do run chalice of the void, with their only 1-drops being 4x goblin welder (and sometimes 1-2 voltaic keys). With chalice and welder being the most thoughtseized, countered, abrupt decayed, and generally messed with cards in the entire deck, the chances of you having both are less than you might think. It is also only a problem if you play the chalice first, then draw a welder later. Also cavern of souls can just force the welder down anyhow.

[Bobmans]

Currently i am running this "All-in" Welder list. And i am liking it. I was pretty amazed by it. It stomps hard and it races combo.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Mountain
3 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker
2 Voltaic Key
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite Flex
SB: 3 All Is Dust
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Karn Liberated Flex
SB: 1 Sundering Titan
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion or Platinum Angel

[Kunfuzed]

I attended the GPT NJ at Eudemonia in Berkeley today. Apologies in advance -- this is based on 0 notes, so anyone there can feel free to chime in with corrections.

I decided TES was the best metagame choice. But, I'm a coward and TES is a big commitment. I then couldn't decide between MUD and UWR Delver, so I brought both. 10 minutes to start time, I finally decided to get my girlfriend's educated opinion on matter. Transcript below:

Me: Quick, UWR or MUD
Her: huh?
Me: Just pick one
Her: mud
Me: Boom

She still doesn't know what the hell I was talking about.

Round 1: Painter
Game 1: He goes turn 1 Blood Moon off of Furnace and 2x SSG, he's happy. This does not actually mess with my turn 2 Chalice turn 3 Metalworker, turn 4 Titan plan. I turn 2 Chalice, turn 3 Metalworker, turn 4 Sundering Titan, he sees no more lands.
Game 2: This game was a bit grindier. He turn 1 Tops, I turn 4 Metalworker/Staff combo, think I Chaliced.
It was a blowout, but he had some pretty bad draws. He ended up in top 8 though, so I don't feel too bad.

1-0; 2-0

Round 2: Mono U Omni-show
He had the bye last round, and I saw him testing. I think this is a pretty bad matchup. I'm none too pleased.
Game 1: I almost get there, he bricks through half his deck cantripping on omniscience til finally, at 2 life, he finds Enter the Infinite and combos out (Lab Maniac plan)
Game 2: Turn 3 Metalworker combo out on the play before Show and Tell can happen
Game 3: Turn 1 Chalice, turn 2 Metalworker, turn 3 Show and Tell, he drops Omniscience, I drop Trinisphere. Beastmode. I play staff, 3 artifacts in hand, game.

2-0; 4-1

17 minutes left in the round. 3 games still going. I have been craving McNuggets for months, so I go get 10. Come back, turns out the games all ended as I left, and one more minute and I would have gotten the game loss. I almost wish I had...

Round 3: Death and Taxes
Game 1: Typical value plays ending in a creature damage race that I won on the back of Steel Hellkite. We are both at 5 life. He has Thalia and Sprit of the Labyrinth out (5 power). I swing for lethal, he flashes in Mindcensor to block. Oh no. I play a Forgemaster off of an Ancient Tomb, putting me at 3, just enough to block the Spirit, take the Thalia beats, and win at 1 life.
Game 2 and 3: Super close games that he ended up winning, both were total grindfests with me always 1 mana from overcoming. D&T did its job, I guess. His list had Wastelands and Ghost Quarters, which were just brutal. 2 Mangara of Corondor won it in the end by removing a Wurmcoil that was gumming the board while I looked for Emperion and Metalworker combo. An onlooker asked why I didnt kill a Karakas in game 2 with my wasteland, taking him off of white. I don't remember the situation, but I may have tunnel visioned on trying to cast the Forgemaster in my hand to combo out somehow, and ended up allowing him to continue establishing a board. Who knows, but it's something to think about.

2-1; 5-3

Round 4: dredge
ID into top 8.

2-1-1; 5-3-1

Turns out they gave me 20 nuggets. I eat 19 and my Dredge "opponent" eats 1 as we test post-sideboard Dredge vs. UWR Delver. I feel terrible.

Top 8: Miracles. Big ups on the APAC basics for reals.
Game 1: He counters 3 Chalices at 1, Cliques turn 3, I draw into Karn turn 4, exile Clique, exile a card in his hand. He Tops to find Council's Judgment. I draw into Metalworker combo with him at 0 cards (Emperion, Blightsteel and Monolith in hand).
Game 2: He miracles'd me hard. Jace, Clique, Venser, Karakas, Terminus my Revokers, it was brutal.
Game 3: He mulls to 5, I go turn 1 Trinisphere off of Ancient Tomb and Monolith, turn 2 Lodestone off of 2 Tombs, turn 3 Lodestone again, and hold the 4th Lodestone at 10 life just in case. Absolute nut draw against his mull. Felt bad.

Top 4: BURG Delver
Game 1: Bolts my turn 1 and turn 2 Metalworkers (Staff in hand), drops 2 Pyros, we go mega grindfest for 30 minutes. I keep top decking Wurmcoils and my Batterskull at the last second, attacking when I have to to not die to 2 Deathrites, hoping to draw my Emperion, Forgemaster or a Metalworker combo. he finally ends it by alpha striking on turn infinity with 15 tokens, a flipped Delver, 2 Pyros, and double Deathrite ping.
Game 2: This is where the great Gregg Spano was looking down on a young MUDder and gracing him with the beautiful topdeck magic. I mull to 5: 3 lands, Chalice, Batterskull. He Forces turn 1 Chalice, Thoughtseizes my Batterskull. Feels bad. Top deck Sundering Titan and Wurmcoil with 2 Ancient Tombs, Vesuva on Tomb, and a City of Traitors, him with a Pyro on board. I'm at 18. I decide that there's no time to Wurmcoil to stabilize with Lifelink, especially since he probably has the Bolt. So I windmill slam Titan, since if he has the Force I'm dead anyway. Titan sticks, I win. He had the Bolt.
Game 3: A good game overall, he double Forces my first two plays (Chalice and Metalworker), I Ratchet Bombed a flipped Delver and some tokens. Metalworker #2 went HAM. Titan, Hellkite, Batterskull, Forgemaster just in case.

Finals: Same D&T again. Ghost Quarters abound.
Game 1: Grindfest again. I got locus mana flowing. Forgemaster in play. He's attacking his Batterskull into Forgemaster to gain life. He's at 32. I drop Metalworker and Staff, only 2 artifacts in hand. Next turn I draw a land, use Staff to draw, Grim Monolith, 1 mana short of going infinite. Pass the turn, feeling confident. He drops Revoker on Staff of Domination, because he's not falling for those shenanigans again. I draw Titan. Drop Monolith, Forgemaster for Staff of Nin, ping Revoker, go infinite.
Game 2: mull, 2 Ratchet Bomb grip, turn 2 Thalia, 3rd land is a Cloudpost, he beats down with Thalia, Spirit and Arbiter and I die with Ratchet Bomb at 2. It was a win on the play. Heartbreaking.
Game 3: Heartbreaker blowout. Opener is turn 1 Chalice, turn 2 Trinisphere, turn 3 Metalworker. But the lands are Tomb Vesuva. He Ghost Quarters the Tomb, I have no target for Vesuva. Time walk. He beats down with Thalia and Spirit again. In retrospect, very bad keep against 6-7 strip mine.dec. Monster keep against anything else.


Decklist:

Core (24):
4 Metalworker (absolute champion of the day)
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Grim Monolith

Utility (10):
2 Sundering Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Batterskull
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Staff of Nin
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Karn Liberated

Combo (2):
2 Staff of Domination (bffs with the absolute champion of the day)

Lands (24):
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Angel
2 Spine of Ish Shah
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Witchbane Orb

Ruminations:

I love Staff of Domination. I think playing 2 is so necessary. The combo can pull you out of so many situations.
Lodestones actually did not play a big role at all, surprisingly, but I think that was just variance as they have crushed it for me in the past.
I go back and forth on the maindeck Staff of Nin. I only played it because Gregg Spano's recent top 8 list played it, but I have used Spine of Ish Shah in the main instead as a Forgemaster target before and it's gotten me out of some crazy situations (Glacial Chasm against 12post, for example). It would have worked here, as well, as it would have killed the problem Revokers, and it would have been better in a couple of places to kill Stoneforges (why are they 1/2?!).
Deck philosophy: Sometimes I think we should trade one or two of the big hitters for a cheaper effect, just to have more to do in the early game if there's some disruption to your Metalworker plan and you're getting the awkward land draw (e.g., 2 City of Traitors and 1 Vesuva type of thing). I don't know what that would be, but some other 2 or 3 drop that can have a good impact. However, this may be chipping away at what this deck does best, which is early disruption, expensive blowout and incredible late game topdecks. If you start adding in cheaper threats, you could start running into situations where you are flush with mana, not doing anything big, and they run you over. I don't know, food for thought.
The sideboard may be the weakest part of my list. The D&T mana denial was absolutely brutal, so maybe upping the Crucible count or using Pithing Needle in place of Revoker would be best.
I kind of want to test out Tangle Wire in the side, but I don't really know how that plays out. What is that good against?
I don't have any All is Dust, but they look interesting. What do you tend to side them in against?


Love the deck and the discussion. Thank you.

[Sleight]

I do not agree with playing multiple staff of dominations. The combo is an auto win, but I you don't want draw a second one ever.
If Metalworker was more resilient it would make sense. The fact that playing a staff before a metalworker is drawn/played untapping with it is pretty difficult.

[TheYoungster]

I don't have any All is Dust, but they look interesting. What do you tend to side them in against?



I have found that all is dust is best against shard less bug, being able to kill all their creatures as well as any planeswalkers is pretty sweet. I find it best at dealing with more tap out style controlling decks like shardless, deathblade or just straight UW or Esper blade. It has applications elsewhere but I find it's most reliable use is dealing with a jace without exposing yourself to sweepers like revoker does.

[Gaudy]

Hi every one, i'm a Burn Player, but last weekend i played MUD and won my local tournament on saturday and it was a great feeling the deck. i used a welder list, i will post it later today

[Malakai]

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Batterskull
1 Staff of Domination
2 Staff of Nin
2 Spellskite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Spine of Ish Sha
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Steel Hellkite
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Karn Liberated
1 Ratchet Bomb


I found that my Trinispheres and Grim Monoliths were often dead cards, even if I drew them early. As such, I cut them (moving the Trinispheres to the board), and endeavored to replace them with more threats.

Batterskull is my threat of choice here, as I wanted something that is good against Delver decks. Karn picks up the slot previously occupied by the second Sundering Titan. It also ensures that I'll have something to do with the absolutely ludicrous amount of mana that I'll produce in the late game.

I also don't like Spine of Ish Sha, but I feel like you need that effect.

[Alex Holland]

Picked this deck up after a long pause.

Nuthing changed :mad: People still have love for cloudpost/vesuva! I can't imagine anything more worse then your lands entering the battlefield tapped. Its so relevant to have your mana early game.

I messed about a bit. Tried staff of Nin. Horrible card. 6 mana should ride you to victory right? Something that a hellkite or wurmcoil can do. Or a kuldotha at 5. Staff of nin gets you extra draws but it just so slooow. I did regained love for goblin welder so i included him in my deck. And of course many ratchet bombs! Best removal to dont lose the game before you are ready to play. This what it looks like:


4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff of Domination
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Lightning Greaves

1 Platinum Emperion
3 Steel Hellkite
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Goblin Welder

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mishra's Factory

SB: 3 Duplicant
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Platinum Angel
SB: 2 All Is Dust
SB: 2 Karn Liberated

[Mockingbird]

Picked this deck up after a long pause.

Nuthing changed :mad: People still have love for cloudpost/vesuva! I can't imagine anything more worse then your lands entering the battlefield tapped. Its so relevant to have your mana early game.Cloudpost gets results.


I messed about a bit. Tried staff of Nin. Horrible card. 6 mana should ride you to victory right? Something that a hellkite or wurmcoil can do. Or a kuldotha at 5. Staff of nin gets you extra draws but it just so slooow.

Staff of Nin is more suited for MUD built for a longer control game because it's nature of attrition and refueling. I've played it, and I like it enough, but honestly, it's strength comes when you control 2 or more because they can knock out most legacy bears. Personally, it's one of my current favorite cards in my deck.

[Alex Holland]

"Cloudpost gets results"

So? Even a MUD deck with forests next to sol lands will get a occasional result. That's MUD.

Just think about 2 vesuvas in hand. Or a t1 sol land and then being stuck with a cloudpost being unable to get to 3 mana t2 WHILE this is vital in legacy. A MUD deck cant sit inactive for a turn because you will get a combo in the face or worse they just drop things to play around your trinisphere. Dropping a tapped land followed by another tapped land is just horrible. Like a timewalk suicide on yourself.

"staff of nin attrition/refuelling"

I dont feel that. Can you tell me against what decks you wil need that? Its such a fast format i feel that your 6 drop should be subtantial and not a card that sets you up for a long game. MUD is slow if it cant drop lock pieces, if you cant drop cards to overpower them youll get further behind. But thats my philosophy.

/ And i forgot to mention: hellkite with greaves/ best thing since the tv invention.

[TheYoungster]

"Cloudpost gets results"

So? Even a MUD deck with forests next to sol lands will get a occasional result. That's MUD.

Just think about 2 vesuvas in hand. Or a t1 sol land and then being stuck with a cloudpost being unable to get to 3 mana t2 WHILE this is vital in legacy. A MUD deck cant sit inactive for a turn because you will get a combo in the face or worse they just drop things to play around your trinisphere. Dropping a tapped land followed by another tapped land is just horrible. Like a timewalk suicide on yourself.

"staff of nin attrition/refuelling"

I dont feel that. Can you tell me against what decks you wil need that? Its such a fast format i feel that your 6 drop should be subtantial and not a card that sets you up for a long game. MUD is slow if it cant drop lock pieces, if you cant drop cards to overpower them youll get further behind. But thats my philosophy.

/ And i forgot to mention: hellkite with greaves/ best thing since the tv invention.

Where have you been? Miracles is one of the best decks in the format right now which is more reason for cloudpost. Staff of Nin is great against miracles as drawing cards is huge when you are out of gas and it can realistically kill a jace since most of the time they have to play it and bounce something. Since a lot of the plays in MUD can just overpower other decks slowing yourself down isn't as huge of a cost as you might think. Baiting counters with lock pieces is fine if you just slam a wurmcoil when they are out to stabilize against something like delver. The fact the miracles and the new UR delver deck don't run wasteland make cloudpost much more appealing. The mana is great against miracles and the life gain is critical against delver and it allows you to easily play stabilizing cards like wurmcoil, steel hellkite or batterskull while being able to play around soft counters.

[Airwave]

I found that my Trinispheres and Grim Monoliths were often dead cards, even if I drew them early. As such, I cut them (moving the Trinispheres to the board), and endeavored to replace them with more threats.

Batterskull is my threat of choice here, as I wanted something that is good against Delver decks. Karn picks up the slot previously occupied by the second Sundering Titan. It also ensures that I'll have something to do with the absolutely ludicrous amount of mana that I'll produce in the late game.

I also don't like Spine of Ish Sha, but I feel like you need that effect.

I often felt the same. Why the hell am I playing these monoliths? I have tons of mana! Or: Why play Trinisphere, the opponent has no problems with it. It's a dead card!

And then you run into Delver (e.g.) wasting your second land in a row.... oops!
My point is: I think your mana-curve is too high. This will very likely cost you games.

[Airwave]

Picked this deck up after a long pause.

Nuthing changed :mad: People still have love for cloudpost/vesuva! I can't imagine anything more worse then your lands entering the battlefield tapped. Its so relevant to have your mana early game.

I messed about a bit. Tried staff of Nin. Horrible card. 6 mana should ride you to victory right? Something that a hellkite or wurmcoil can do. Or a kuldotha at 5. Staff of nin gets you extra draws but it just so slooow. I did regained love for goblin welder so i included him in my deck. And of course many ratchet bombs! Best removal to dont lose the game before you are ready to play. This what it looks like:



Entering the battlefield tapped = bad, but all of your lands producing 2+ mana = sweet. At the cost of speed, of course. It's a control deck in my opinion this way. Dropping post mana increases speed -> combo/aggro. Two types of MUD.

I think control is better against all delver variants, miracles, ANT/TES, POX, etc.
Aggro/combo is better against the aggrodecks (elves, merfolk, goblins, burn, maverick, dredge, etc.)

It all depends on exact decklists of course but this is what I found in general. In my meta, the control (cloud) version is better at the moment because total Delver/miracle/ANT count reaches more than 50% often.


I'm with you on Staff of Nin by the way. It don't like it at all! :frown:
If you need extra cards (which control version does I think) use Cloister of Coercive Portal at 4 mana. The 6 slot is quite full already with all these juicy bots that win you the game!

Ratchet Bomb is very nice indeed, but I found it hard to combine with Welder since I blow up at 1 often, killing my own welder :cry: I use it in control version though.


Just think about 2 vesuvas in hand. Or a t1 sol land and then being stuck with a cloudpost being unable to get to 3 mana t2 WHILE this is vital in legacy. A MUD deck cant sit inactive for a turn because you will get a combo in the face or worse they just drop things to play around your trinisphere. Dropping a tapped land followed by another tapped land is just horrible. Like a timewalk suicide on yourself.

2 vesuva's only? Mulligan!
SOL land + post? T1 post, unless I have Chalice at hand which will seriously harm my opponent. Otherwise T2 sol, T2 3-drop (worker,trini,bridge, etc.)

Next to that, playing 24 lands gives you a fair chance at having 3 lands in opener, especially on the draw :wink:


By the way, welcome back :cool:

[BlackHawkX9]

I just won my local GPT with this list.

1x Blightsteel Colossus
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
4x metal worker
1x platinum angel
1x steel hellkite
1x sundering titan
3x wurmcoil engine
4x chalice of the void
4x grim monolith
2x lightning greaves
1x spine of ish sah
1x staff of domination
1x staff of nin
4x trinisphere
4x ancient tomb
2x cavern of souls
4x city of traitors
4x cloudpost
4x glimerpost
3x vesuva
3x wasteland

Board:
1x All is dust
1x ensnaring bridge
2x ratchet bomb
1x spellskite
1x spine of ish sah
1x sundering titan
1x thorn of amethyst
2x tormod's crypt
2x torpor orb
1x trading post
1x witchbane orb
1x wurmcoil engine

My only loss was to BUG delver round 1, then i beat that same BUG delver for top 2.

As far as the debate on whether trinisphere should be run and not run, I feel that it has amazing potential to keep the game in your favor with them playing 1 maybe 2 spells a turn with their lighter mana bases, while i bait their force with a lodestone golem and then drop sundering titan and wurmcoil engine back to back with all the mana from my locust lands.

Plus, with the post lands i can't tell you how many turns i would use the locust land mana to abuse staff of domination to tap down 2 creatures and draw 2 cards for consecutive turns.

[Sleight]

As of right now I think post base might be good enough.
My current list I built when wastelands saw more play. Which made double post hands super dangerous. Going a few turns with out landing anything relevant generally has already put you out of the race apart from a great top deck.

[bruizar]

Congratulations Black Hawk.


Here's some more progress on one of my builds (Working on Red mud, Blue mud and exploring the viability of prototype portal at the moment). If anyone could contribute thoughts or play testing to further develop the deck, it would be much appreciated.

Prototype Portal

4 CC [8]
4 Prototype Portal
4 Lodestone Golem

3 CC [16]
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Tangle Wire
4 Etched Champion
4 Metalworker

2 CC [6]
2 Whipflare / All is Dust
4 Grim Monolith
2 Spellskite

1 CC [10]
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Voltaic Key
2 Relic of Progenitus

Land [20]
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mox Opal
1 Academy Ruins
3 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors


Brief explanation:
Prototype Portal
★ Ramps with artifact land, Mox Opal, Voltaic Key, Metalworker, Grim Monolith
★ Draws with Sensei's Divining Top or Voltaic Key or Relic of Progenitus
★ Disrupts with Lodestone Golem and Tangle Wire
★ Protects with Spellskite, Etched Champion and Phyrexian Metamorph
★ Baits counters since you need only imprint after the spell is resolved
★ Prototype Portal imprinting Prototype Portal or Phyrexian Metamorph eliminates all counters. though unlikely due to mana requirements

Etched Champion
★ Low curve, artifact lands and token artifacts enable metalcraft consistently
★ Acts as an Ensnaring Bridge that can win the game
★ Ignores Abrupt Decay

Issues
★ Perhaps too ramp-heavy and too little gas
★ Whipflare is off-color
★ Metalworker might not be necessary given the low curve
★ Entreat the Angels and Delver of Secrets ignore Etched Champion
★ Considering replacing Sensei's Divining Top with more Relic of Progenitus to combat delve cards and Tarmogoyf while still drawing cards
★ Number of Voltaic Keys is off

Considered Cards
Brittle Effigy
Welding Jar
Nihil Spellbomb and Relic of Progenitus
Wizard Replica
Sphere of Resistance and Thorn of Amethyst
Smokestack

[Firefraise]

I did try a prototype portal list back in the day. My list is on page 14 on this very thread. It was very fun, and sometimes very efficient. I actually followed some of your advices on that matter and sometimes tried some silly things like Lotus bloom on portal (cute but not competitive).

People don't expect the portal, and you can steal a few win with it. I like your list. But I prefer my MUD "staxxy" so I often play with Chalice and Sphere of resistance. I suppose sphere and portal could be quite strong.

You need to have a plan against Pithing Needle effects, I faced that card on game 2 almost every time.

[Bobmans]

I have considered Pyroclasm as a sideboard card in my Welder list, but Whipflare would be a lot better. Great find, i will try it soon.

Also Coercive Portal is on my radar, especially with Cloudpost lists it might be a strong card that has application for multiple purposes. Build up mana, sculpt a hand, blow up the field and then drop bombs. Or as a "reset" button. And even as a one sided Howling Mine it is strong in grindy matchups. 4 mana is a nice cost.

Edit: as i read it (again), it seems that Carnage has to get a vote from the opponent or it won't trigger the Carnage ability!? What a shame..

[bruizar]

I have considered Pyroclasm as a sideboard card in my Welder list, but Whipflare would be a lot better. Great find, i will try it soon.

Pyroclasm is to Rolling Earthquake what Whipflare is to Bonfire of the Damned. The one sided sweep is really nice, especially if you're running Relic of Progenitus. Relic shrinks both Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, trashes Deathrite Shaman's utility and dashes the dreams for Treasure Cruise. Whipflare can take out Delver of Secrets, Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose, Elves.dec, Young Pyromancer and his buddies and sometimes takes out a Swiftspear. All while leaving Metalworkers and Phyrexian Revokers in play.

[Zirath]

Was thinking about a Blue MUD build today. TfK, Cruise, Transmute Artifact all came to mind. I guess I'm thinking mostly of a more aggressive Tez list.

[Alex Holland]

Was thinking about a Blue MUD build today. TfK, Cruise, Transmute Artifact all came to mind. I guess I'm thinking mostly of a more aggressive Tez list.

Tez/dreadnought affinity is fun.. :laugh:

I have been thinking about MUD these days and im convinced. Cloudpost is ok- with the right cards. With cloudpost i wouldnt use monoliths anymore- maybe not even metalworkers, they are redundant if not for bad hands or a possible staff of domination win, wich i think is great fun to do. So i was wrong! I will miss those caverns, and those artifact-manlands wich made forgemaster online quicker.

I am split between two cores,

First i tried a more stax core:

4 lodestone
4 phyrexian metamorph
4 thorn of amethyst / 4 sphere of resistance
3 tangle wire

That gives you about 12-19(!) possible cards to slow down anything the opponent does. Tangle wire especially shines in post- buys time for your tapped lands. And your land is more valuable than theirs. Also BRIEFLY tought about prototype portal for this- would be awesome to make a lodestone every turn- but thats magic christmas land.

Sphere of resistance is awesome! I didnt even played chalice or trinisphere in this build because i figured what the h is delver gonna do when i am on the play dropping t1 sphere, t2 another or copying t3 tangle wire.
Im not sure about amethyst because i played death and taxes and they didnt seem to care! However its a good combo with big mana, big robots, sort of like a tangle wire with makes their counters useless. It also feels a bit like trolling spamming all kind of obstructions to playing the game- i liked it :cool: Sometimes it did fireback- karn became uncastable wich sucked.

Also if you dont play chalice this enables pithing needle- a very important card against wasteland and a little stronger then revoker against some decks.

The other build i tried is more aggro. Everbody loves big robots right? This is my standard package:

3 steel hellkite
4 wurmcoil engine

A hellkite equipped with greaves killing everything in front of him is beautiful. Wurmcoil is better and better with less swords in the format it seems? Everything else fluctuates. I think forgemaster is still mandatory- you need tutoring against certain matchups. I like metalworker still very much, it can safe you when your mana comes slow so it actually adds stability. Plus people still love to throw counters and stuff at it instead of targetting your win spells. But on the other hand: copper gnomes sort of does this role to. Its only 2 mana so you can always play it- and get something trough uncounterd.

Chalice is a must still i think. Mostly i go with 3 trinisphere. And now sometimes with 3 thorn of amethyst. Aggro is a easy matchup, non-aggro harder. So amethyst deserves some attention.

I dont feel sundering titan. I never felt like getting it instead of blightsteel with kuldotha. It feels a bit situational. Also why is Myr battlesphere never run anymore? Hardcast is fairly easy with post mana base.

Current ideal mana base (24)

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
12 post
4 wasteland

PS: I am still waiting for someone to build the ultimate red MUD with Godo, bandit warlord, rolling earthquake and goblin welder. Maybe even the new spoiled FELDON!

[TheYoungster]

You still have to run metalworker because of the fact that wasteland is a card. Redundancy is necessary because the best way to disrupt the plan to out mana people with lands is a auto include in a lot of non combo decks. Decks like 12 post can get away with the post mana base being good enough is because of built in protection with crop rotations and pithing needles or other land tutoring effects but we don't have that luxury so you need the redundancy to compete and actually cast your spells.

[Sleight]

Went to scg Minneapolis yesterday. Lost first round to U/R delver. Pretty sure he went to top 8. Ended the day 5-4 (would have dropped but my ride had potential for top 16 so I played it out)
Had wins against Reanimator, Death and Taxes, High Tide (barely made this one. Had the nicest opponent. I felt for him when he fizzled giving me 3 extra meditate turns.), Elves, and pox. Got burned out of cash last round.

I can write a report later tonight after work. I think I'm going to want to move my revokers to the side and add ratchet bombs to main.

[Alex Holland]

This is my list currently btw:

4# chalice of the void
3# trinisphere
3# thorn of amethyst

3# lightning greaves
3# ratchet bomb
1# staff of domination
2# karn liberated

4#wurmcoil engine
3# steel hellkite
3#metalworker
4#kuldotha forgemaster
1# blightsteel colossus
1# platinum emperion

3# mishras factory
3# vesuva
3# city of traitors
3# wasteland
4# cloudpost
4# glimmerpost
4# ancient tomb

[Mockingbird]

This is my list currently btw:

4# chalice of the void
3# trinisphere
3# thorn of amethyst

3# lightning greaves
3# ratchet bomb
1# staff of domination
2# karn liberated

4#wurmcoil engine
3# steel hellkite
3#metalworker
4#kuldotha forgemaster
1# blightsteel colossus
1# platinum emperion

3# mishras factory
3# vesuva
3# city of traitors
3# wasteland
4# cloudpost
4# glimmerpost
4# ancient tomb
Why no Lodestone Golem? He's the deck's most efficient beater and a tax card rolled into one.

[Alex Holland]

Why no Lodestone Golem? He's the deck's most efficient beater and a tax card rolled into one.

Lightning bolt?

Unsynergy with trinisphere?

Amethyst is better because t1 pseudo timewalk?

[TheYoungster]

Lightning bolt?

Unsynergy with trinisphere?

Amethyst is better because t1 pseudo timewalk?

1. I think there has been discuss in this thread a while back that said dying to lightning bolt is a terrible excuse for not including a creature. The fact that creatures die to removal isn't a great argument against playing them. Of course creatures are going to die to removal, that's the point of removal and if you go by that definition of playable creature bases would be terrible. People still pay deathrite, delver, thalia, stoneforge, and dark confidant and they all die to the most relevant removal in the format. I know comparing lodestone to all of those besides thalia (both disrupt mana, are respectable clocks, usually turn 2 plays, beat a lot of creatures in combat) but the idea is still relevant.

2. Sure there is not great synergy with 3sphere but trinisphere doesn't resolve a lot and being able to slam a lodestone after they deal with trinisphere is a pretty good. Lodestone is one of the best clocks and it hinders us in no way while disrupting the opponent. Trinisphere is great and all but if you do nothing of any relevance for the entire game they will beat it but lodestone disrupts their game plan while putting them on a 4 turn clock. Also trinisphere does nothing to stop a Jace or Liliana and Lodestone can buy you time against them which can be critical a lot of the time.

3. Creatures are very playable, the best turn 1 plays for fair decks are probably deathrite or maybe delver and both are creatures which prevents the pseudo time walk. Decks are used to playing through Thalia (obviously thorn with legs) so thorn diminishes in value. The same argument can be made for lodestone but at worst lodestone is a 5/3 which is nothing to laugh at and it slows down creatures. Another problem with thorn in this kind of shell is that we have less mana denial than D&T and we don't have a lot of great ways to "cheat" our threats into play while continuing to disrupt our opponents, generally in legacy artifacts (aether vial) are less vulnerable than creatures (metalworker) which makes their mana denial elements stronger. MUD isn't a prison deck, prison was already dying and with the printing of treasure cruise prison just seems to be getting worse and worse in the format. MUD is basically a disruptive aggro/midrange deck that aims to get the opponent on the back foot with "lock" pieces then seal up the game quickly with basically any threat, be it lodestone, forgemaster or wurmcoil. It is very hard for us to play the control role, with the exception of against combo, we have to do something to effect the board or just play something like a t1 or t2 trinisphere and the opponent just can't keep up or you aren't going to win. Without the great and fast mana of vintage shop decks it is just hard for us to overload on sphere effects without diluting our deck with a bunch of do-nothings, vintage decks can do this because if they dump a bunch of spheres backed up by tangle wires and wastelands and 1 threat they are probably going to get there. We can't afford to sit on ass for that long, Lodestone gives us a taxing effect while also putting on tremendous pressure. You have to remember we are a deck with an extremely small amount of library manipulation and has very little effective ways to draw cards which makes it very hard for us to effectively play the control role so you have to be proactive in your disruption and lodestone is a prime example of that.

[Mockingbird]

This is my current build I just started testing:


//Lands: 24
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
3 Wasteland

//Creatures: 18
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

//Artifacts: 18
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Grim Monolith
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
4 Trinisphere

//Sideboard: 15
2 All is Dust
1 Duplicant
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Staff of Nin
3 Tormod's Crypt

It's nothing too special at the moment, and to be honest, I'm not sure how done I am with the deck.

Choices that might not be self explanatory:
Crucible of Worlds is actually less about me establishing Wasteland lock and more about having an ability to work with City of Traitors. For a singleton, it pulls its weight helping reinforce my mana base as well as occasionally getting lucky with Wasteland lock. And I don't see it enough for it to be dead.

Ratchet Bomb is at the moment a preboard because the appearance of Delve(r) (my shorthand to URx Delver with Delve cards), the meta game is getting more hyper aggressive. Otherwise, the Karn Liberated in the sideobard would occupy thess slots.

Staff of Nin is in this deck to help grind long games. MUD is notorious for being frustrating in Top-deck mode, and there are numerous X/1's on the scene right now. Six mana may seem underwhelming for it's effect, but in my experience, it's well worth the investment. I do have concerns with the above mentioned hyper aggressive outpacing this card, but I would suggest at least one for the side board because this card is a nightmare for a Miracles player.

Sundering Titan #2 is because with Post mana on top of MUD Sol/Grim/Metalworker mana, I have a strong desire to attack opposing Mana bases hard. It's spot is not set in stone because Delve(r) and in the background Infect threatening certain death by turn 3, I may squeeze in a Platinum Angel into the deck.

And my side... it's kind of a mess. So any and all suggestions are welcomed.

[Bobmans]

http://i.imgur.com/tHH777m.jpg

Mario Andretti MUD... Just had to squeeze this new Commander 2014 planeswalker in my Welder build.
Replaced 2x Sensei's Divining Top and 2x Voltaic Key (cus the Planeswalker is doing kinda both things) for 2x Daretti, 1x Crucible of Worlds (color fixing and Welder/Daretti shenanigans) and 1x Staff of Domination (i guess this new walker also fixes hands required for the staff to actually win).
It may so happen that the list needs more color fixing, but first i want to test it. Offcourse this list tries to be as fast as possible and i might actually miss SDT in that regard. If i can't combo t2/3 or for whatever reason the game shifts into midgame then the new walker might be able to outgrind the opponent. Can't wait to find out.
If you're wondering why this akward sideboard? I wanted full combo potential game 1 to be able to overload the opponent (which works pretty amazing). I know people swear by Chalice, but it doesn't help with the stratigy very often. Chalice is very good in some situations obviously. So it only comes in when it might make enough impact on the opponent (Miracles, Reanimate, etc) and when you're on the play. Being on the draw it might actually suk depending on the matchup. Also i don't like to board in more then 5 cards so often it is either 4x 3Sphere or 4x Chalice plus a Titan or a Emperion depending on the matchup.
All is Dust was in the slot of 3x Whipflare. All is Dust while a Welder was on the board wasn't really a problem, but i don't like the idea of nuking my Mario Andretti. Still not to sure tho. I might also go for Ratchet Bomb for the reasons Mockingbird stated in the previous post.
Also no grave hate, most of the time my angle of attack makes it so that graveyard interactions are shut down (3Sphere vs Flashback) or the benefit of the graveyard can be neglected (Chalice @ 1) or the deck is just faster/able to race.


2 Daretti, Scrap Savant

4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
1 Crucible of Worlds

3 Lightning Greaves

4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker
3 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Opal

2 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Whipflare
SB: 2 Karn Liberated
SB: 1 Sundering Titan
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion


Edit: Just wondering if you can return the sacrificed artifact with -2 ability of Daretti or that you cannot, since you have to announce target's first?

[Alex Holland]

This is my current build I just started testing:


//Lands: 24
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
3 Wasteland

//Creatures: 18
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

//Artifacts: 18
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Grim Monolith
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
4 Trinisphere

//Sideboard: 15
2 All is Dust
1 Duplicant
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Staff of Nin
3 Tormod's Crypt

It's nothing too special at the moment, and to be honest, I'm not sure how done I am with the deck.

Choices that might not be self explanatory:
Crucible of Worlds is actually less about me establishing Wasteland lock and more about having an ability to work with City of Traitors. For a singleton, it pulls its weight helping reinforce my mana base as well as occasionally getting lucky with Wasteland lock. And I don't see it enough for it to be dead.

Ratchet Bomb is at the moment a preboard because the appearance of Delve(r) (my shorthand to URx Delver with Delve cards), the meta game is getting more hyper aggressive. Otherwise, the Karn Liberated in the sideobard would occupy thess slots.

Staff of Nin is in this deck to help grind long games. MUD is notorious for being frustrating in Top-deck mode, and there are numerous X/1's on the scene right now. Six mana may seem underwhelming for it's effect, but in my experience, it's well worth the investment. I do have concerns with the above mentioned hyper aggressive outpacing this card, but I would suggest at least one for the side board because this card is a nightmare for a Miracles player.

Sundering Titan #2 is because with Post mana on top of MUD Sol/Grim/Metalworker mana, I have a strong desire to attack opposing Mana bases hard. It's spot is not set in stone because Delve(r) and in the background Infect threatening certain death by turn 3, I may squeeze in a Platinum Angel into the deck.

And my side... it's kind of a mess. So any and all suggestions are welcomed.

Play 3 ratchet main. Look at rachet as a mini karn that thus also disrupts their plans. Delver/batterskull/deathrite/elves/goblins/revoker everythibg dies from ratchet. Even truename nemesis. And ocasionnaly it takes out a piece wich we have to destroy like jace or whatever locks the game.

[bruizar]

I'm on the bandwagon. Daretti MUD will be the sole focus for now. I feel I need to point out the following:

Daretti has 'haste', before passing priority, you can activate your ability

Daretti survives Lightning Bolt, because you don't pass priority, you can +2 him before it can be bolted

Daretti draws! It is important to note that daretti does not discard at random

Daretti is unaffected by creature removal

Daretti is unaffected by abrupt decay

Daretti comes in the best color for MUD

@ Bobmans, I would up the number of Daretti's to 3 (if not 4). I feel Daretti is to MUD what Tezzeret AOB is for UB Tezz.

[Bobmans]

You might be right on the numbers for Daretti, but i might just cut a petal for Daretti nr 3. Then ill just use that as a starting point.

[bruizar]

Yes, we need to start somewhere. There's a lot of new design space for MUD.

What I really, really like is how MUD finally gets a good draw engine that makes sense. Remember, some people play Staff of Nin. This is so much better than Staff of Nin. The 12 post decks will still run colorless builds, but for red mud / Godo mud, this card is exactly what was needed. Chalice can still be played, and the issue of creature removal on Welder / summoning sickness is gone. It's also a really easy splash so we can still use sol lands to full effect.

Also, Tangle Wire seems really effective with this planeswalker as it can buy turns that can be used to get more activations.

[MGB]

This deck might have to take more of a Big Artifacts direction with this guy. Playing 4 Welders and 3-4 of this guy means that you have a way to "weld" in big artifacts in nearly every game. Faithless Looting might even make an appearance and turn this into more of a combo-like build with stuff like Mindslaver and more Sundering Titans.

[bruizar]

This is an attempt to create a comprehensive list of all the bombs available. Many of them are not good enough, but some may be worth considering:

* Darksteel Forge
* Possessed Portal
* Duplicant
* Triskelavus
* Spine of Ish Sah
* Nevyniral's Disk
* Sundering Titan
* Myr Battlesphere - Lots of chump blockers and welder fodder
* Smokestack
* Inkwell Leviathan / Sphinx of the Steel Wind -> Both immune to red artifact removal post-board.
* Steel Hellkite
* Phyrexian Metamorph
* Mindslaver
* Wurmcoil Engine
* Bosh Iron Golem
* Platinum Emperion
* Platinum Angel
Edit
Contagion Engine

[honz]

@ Alex Holland, you seem a little stuck between playing stax and playing MUD. I just wanted to address a couple things...


Sphere of resistance is awesome! I didnt even played chalice or trinisphere in this build because i figured what the h is delver gonna do when i am on the play dropping t1 sphere, t2 another or copying t3 tangle wire.....Amethyst is better (than lodestone golem) because t1 pseudo timewalk?

TheYoungster hit the nail on the head. If you want to run tangle wires, and spheres and thorns, you need to run more mana destruction cards like crucible of worlds, smokestack, armageddon, suppression field, wildfire...etc to truly lock your opponent out of the game. At which point you are no longer playing MUD, you are playing stax, which has its own thread. Without completely locking out your opponent somehow, you are just playing cards that slow down an already slow deck. Beating a turn 1 delver becomes nearly impossible.


Play 3 ratchet main. Look at rachet as a mini karn that thus also disrupts their plans. Delver/batterskull/deathrite/elves/goblins/revoker everythibg dies from ratchet. Even truename nemesis. And ocasionnaly it takes out a piece wich we have to destroy like jace or whatever locks the game.

Again, this is not a control deck. We are not looking to disrupt or get board control or lock anyone out of the game. Chalice is there to protect our cards. The goal is to go over the top of and race delver/goblins/death and taxes, not to play the value game. People will play ratchet bomb in the board mainly to answer hate cards like phyrexian revoker, pithing needle, blood moon, ensnaring bridge, meddling mage, and things like that. It can also be uesful to clear out tokens from entreat the angels and young pyro.


I dont feel sundering titan. I never felt like getting it instead of blightsteel with kuldotha. It feels a bit situational. Also why is Myr battlesphere never run anymore? Hardcast is fairly easy with post mana base.

Sundering titan is a must-play card in this deck because there are just too many things that can answer a blighsteel, such as swords to plowshares, councils judgement, liliana of the veil, jace, echoing truth, terminus...etc. Almost every deck runs some answer. Although all of these answer sundering titan as well, titan will take most of their lands with him. If you catch somebody tapped out, or with no cards in hand, or you read their mind, or you have to race them, then blighsteel is the better grab. If you are facing a miracles player who has 7 cards in hand and an untapped plains, titan is the better choice (or even staff of nin).

@Whipflare

I don't like this card because it doesn't kill phyrexian revoker, and I hate death and taxes. Also there's a tezz player in my area, and baleful strix is annoying as hell.


@Mario Andaretti

This card has me really excited. With the 12-post lists getting the majority of the high profile results recently, I think the welder lists are very strong and highly underrated. I hope this will get more people into playing welder and MUD in general. His ultimate is disappointing, but with the minus being so good, I doubt you would ever want it anyhow. With no testing, I would say 2-3 along with 6-7 red sources.

Faithless looting seems excessive since daretti comes with a looting included, and space is tight. I also always hated how looting is card disadvantage.

Cutting chalice is probably a mistake too, since elves and UR delver and miracles are the decks to beat right now, in my mind.


Just wondering if you can return the sacrificed artifact with -2 ability of Daretti or that you cannot, since you have to announce target's first?

Nope. Much like how recurring nightmare works, you have to announce the target as you activate the ability, so the sacrificed artifact will not be in your graveyard at that time.


This deck might have to take more of a Big Artifacts direction with this guy. Playing 4 Welders and 3-4 of this guy means that you have a way to "weld" in big artifacts in nearly every game

I don't agree. I think kuldotha is still the prize pony for the deck, with daretti just being another way to enable it, with the added bonus of doing his job for him at times.

@bruizar

Contagion engine is probably the only other playable one.

[bruizar]

@bruizar

Contagion engine is probably the only other playable one.

Contagion Engine
Wow, proliferate actually helps to ramp our new planeswalker! That means +4 loyalty every turn. If you run Contagion Engine, that ultimate is actually realistically feasible. It also grows Tangle Wire to the point where you lock the entire game out, while you're drawing cards, welding and using your ultimate...

Upkeep, remove counter from Tangle Wire
Draw mana from pool
Tap permanents with Tangle Wire
Activate Contagion Engine, add 2 counters to Tangle Wire

Meanwhile, you can continue to 'cast spells' by welding, even though no player has any usable permanents left.

[(nameless one)]

@Sphere/Stax like build vs. Red "combo" builds

I feel like there should be two different threads on this.

Alex Holland isn't exactly wrong with Spheres as it is a valid strategy. Making sure that the opponent can't do anything is a great way to disrupt your opponent. Unfortunately, a turn one Delver of Secrets can easily undo this.

The problem with the Red builds is it's consistency. I tried fixing this before by playing Top and Faithless Looting. On top of Metalworker, you can weld them back or Forgemaster them in. Worst case scenario, you can easily cast a 6 mana bomb late game. Sounds like a fool proof plan but the inconsistent mana base hurt the deck.

With Daretti doesn't really solve the inconsistent mana base. However, it is way better than Welder that it has "haste" and dodges a lot of removal. Something that Metalworker and Goblin Welder is prevented from being broken. Also with the casting cost, you can run Chalice at one without issues

I am looking forward in the whole red Commander set and what Daretti can do to this archetype.

[Alex Holland]

@nameless, true- playing spheres isnt always stax-like. It also means that if the tap out you dont have to worry about counters. And a certain BG kill all i love spell is 3 mana so even with one sphere its delayed a turn wich is good. if i play spheres i also play lodestone and metamorph so this can frustrate them quickly while i freewheel to a forgemaster win.

Well if everyone is going ducati (or whats his name) crazy i might add my 2 cents. One remark: it doesnt REALLY have looting build-in, because he actually needs you to discard to draw.

its easy to go overboard with such a card but i think its best as a supplement not as a build around card. First thing i did was think about sac artifacts like obviously wurmcoil (switching one for another ka-ching wurmsss!) but also something like ichor wellspring draw 1, no draw 2 get something back too at the same time??? Wait that sounds cool: (2) draw 2 get something back if daretti is out. Also; maybe even spine of ish sha- i never used it ever because 7 mana is much and other answers are available that i liked more- but playing it then saccing it for something good and getting to replay it from your hand sounds ok.

EDIT: This is what i am now trying- equipment MUD. (got the inspiration from way back when people tried godo with etched champion) Drawing multiple swords in hand normally sucks. But isnt bad when you can trade them for other cards then get them back when needed. 4 Daretti i think maybe right, multiple isnt bad at all! Like sac wurmcoil get 2 wurms, play a new daretti sac artifactland get origingal wurmcoil back. Also tangle wire is really good in combination with post mana base and duratti getting them back at will. Etched champion rides the equipment to victory. Magus of the moon may stay in for now because he was my only way out in a test-game where karn had died and i had to deal with maze of ith .



4 Daretti

3 Etched Champion
4 Godo, Bandit Warlord
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Steel Hellkite

5 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva

3 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of War and Peace

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
1 Karn Liberated

[bruizar]

http://media.wizards.com/2014/c14/aakdfnppleih2/en_xna2ntodzj.png

Sweet, sweet removal! Almost an asymmetric Wildfire

[Alex Holland]

http://media.wizards.com/2014/c14/aakdfnppleih2/en_xna2ntodzj.png

Sweet, sweet removal! Almost an asymmetric Wildfire


omg... the hell with protection!

[apple713]

http://media.wizards.com/2014/c14/aakdfnppleih2/en_xna2ntodzj.png

Sweet, sweet removal! Almost an asymmetric Wildfire

idk whats going on but WOTC certainly decided that this is red's time to rise to power... or maybe just time for it to start competing.

What's amazing about this spell is that its an instant land destruction spell, and its so powerful that even for 5 mana id consider playing it in legacy.

[bruizar]

Even after Primeval Titan hits the board, you still have a fighting chance against Turbo Eldrazi with this card. If you can power it out fast enough, you can really blow out the 12 post mana base, and that's a deck where the creature removal isn't even that relevant. This card actually deals 14 damage to 12/12 Kozilek (Not indestructible/no protection) while blowing up Eye of Ugin in the process. Emrakul is the only dude this card can't answer.

Heck, I'm tempted to run Bosejiu :/

[apple713]

Even after Primeval Titan hits the board, you still have a fighting chance against Turbo Eldrazi with this card. If you can power it out fast enough, you can really blow out the 12 post mana base, and that's a deck where the creature removal isn't even that relevant. This card actually deals 14 damage to 12/12 Kozilek (Not indestructible/no protection) while blowing up Eye of Ugin in the process. Emrakul is the only dude this card can't answer.

Heck, I'm tempted to run Bosejiu :/

totally off topic but it warrants a look at red land destruction since you can combine this with wildfires, and burning of xiane (spelling)

[Bobmans]

idk whats going on but WOTC certainly decided that this is red's time to rise to power... or maybe just time for it to start competing.

What's amazing about this spell is that its an instant land destruction spell, and its so powerful that even for 5 mana id consider playing it in legacy.


...

4 Godo, Bandit Warlord



Love to see where this is heading. The only problem i have is finding the right shell. MUD obviously has a much better mana ramp, but lacks the amount of coloured mana. Whereas Dragon Stompy has evolved a solid shell, but has a much lower curve. I have tried the create a list with all the protection and mana from a Dragon Stompy shell and put stuff like Wurmcoil Engine, Wildfire, etc in there. But it never reached the critical 6 mana in time during testing against real decks like Death and taxes. Wildfire obviously was a strong hoser, but double red was too much.

Edit: in this red"ish" MUD/Wildfire list i also played Chandra Ablaze. The times it resolved it was really solid. It worked kind of like an engine. Refeulling hands, and then burn some solid damage. Even the ultimate with Seething Songs and Wildfires in the graveyard was awesome.

[bruizar]

Well, the beauty of this is that Volcanic Offering only costs one red mana. It's easily splashable in the Godo stompy build. This is going to be red MUD and Dragon stompies sweeper of choice, and it might even bring back wildfire.dec.

Living the dream here:
T1: Ancient Tomb Chalice for one (no more spell pierce)
T2: Mountain, Seething song into Volcanic Offering

[Bobmans]

Well, the beauty of this is that Volcanic Offering only costs one red mana. It's easily splashable in the Godo stompy build. This is going to be red MUD and Dragon stompies sweeper of choice, and it might even bring back wildfire.dec.

Living the dream here:
T1: Ancient Tomb Chalice for one (no more spell pierce)
T2: Mountain, Seething song into Volcanic Offering

That is not even to far fetched, but what are we going to do on turn 3? Best case scenario you drop a Sol land or a normal land and then have some business. 4 mana and drop Andretti is solid, but i still see the possibility that the deck bricks a couple of turns before it is able to land a CMC 6 card.

Edit: i think that Wildfire would need a huge amount of dedicated cards to be able to revover from it faster then the opponent. It would require at least 3-4 Crucible of Worlds. Daretti helps in the sense it can swap Great Furnaces into bombs.

[apple713]

Well, the beauty of this is that Volcanic Offering only costs one red mana. It's easily splashable in the Godo stompy build. This is going to be red MUD and Dragon stompies sweeper of choice, and it might even bring back wildfire.dec.

Living the dream here:
T1: Ancient Tomb Chalice for one (no more spell pierce)
T2: Mountain, Seething song into Volcanic Offering

we'll its really kinda wasted if you are playing it t2 because its unlikely they dropped 2x creatures, and if you are on the play then its just wasteful.

[bruizar]

Well, I'm pretty sure we need Trinisphere, Tangle Wire or both to further slow down opponents and prevent counters from happening. I think from that point on we need to be looking at cheap threats. Moltensteel Dragon, Lodestone Golem, Daretti, Scrap Savant are all 4-CC. Batterskull is on 5 and Godo can replace Wurmcoil Engine to make the Batterskulls better. Gathan Raiders is a 3 mana 5/5 that fuels Daretti.

What else do we have?


Commander 2014 opened up so much design space, my head is exploding

[bruizar]

we'll its really kinda wasted if you are playing it t2 because its unlikely they dropped 2x creatures, and if you are on the play then its just wasteful.

I get what you're saying and I agree. I'm imaging a scenario that opens with a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman. Being able to nuke 2 lands and a DRS (or against elves), might leave your opponent with no lands left and no cantrips to dig for them. If your opponent starts missing land drops, you pretty much sealed the game right there. It's cool as hell that we have the ability to blow opponents out like this. We already had turn 1 chalice in the arsenal, and dragon stompy even had turn 1 blood moon and trinisphere as well with Simian Spirit Guide. Those are incredibly strong game breakers on the winning dice roll.

[Bobmans]

Pff, i can't even think straight....

First i guess is a solid manabase that can ramp and hold 6 mana with at least one red source by turn 3.

Obviously red has Simian Spirit Guide, Lotus Petal and Seething Song, but those are one shots.
Then we have Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond, but both are kinda card disadvantage.
Also there is Mox Opal, but this lacks speed.
Grim Monolith ramps, but requires to have a Daretti in play and another mana rock to circulate. On top of that, you need to spend turn using the + ability first.
Metalworker is kinda crap since the decks runs more non artifacts.
Also Thran Dynamo is a card, but 4 for mana for 3 mana makes you a turn slower.

As for lands, i am not sure about adding Cloudpost mana base to the list. On the other hand Turbo Eldrazi gets away with it. Even with 2 colors.
Then we would need both Mountain as Great Furnace. Wasteland would be a good addition to compliment Trinisphere and Tangle Wire along with Volcanis Offering.
Lodestone Golem might get in our own way, so i think that's a no go unless the manabase proves to be solid.
Also Rishadan Port might be a strong choice if we decide to keep attacking the opponents manabase.
Sandstone Needle has been a good card in the past, but tapped into play can be to slow as we have seen with cloupost mana.
Cavern of Souls would also be solid on naming Human (Godo, bandit warlord and Magus of the Moon).

This are just some random thoughts, getting nowhere so far..


EDIT: Will the opponent be able to target the same targets as you choose with Volcanic Offering??

[Alex Holland]

idk whats going on but WOTC certainly decided that this is red's time to rise to power... or maybe just time for it to start competing.

What's amazing about this spell is that its an instant land destruction spell, and its so powerful that even for 5 mana id consider playing it in legacy.


WAIT.....


volcanic fallout............... just found out that they could just pick the same land and creature as you did... so its 5 mana kill a land and a creature.. moving on :rolleyes:

[bruizar]

Such a missed chance. This had me so excited :/

[Gheizen64]

Damn that was about to be my favourite new card :frown:

But well, 4R instant for 2 lands and 2 creatures maybe was a a bit too good tbh. #thedreamisdead

[Bobmans]

I guess i will just stick to the welder list with 3 Daretti for further testing.

[Alex Holland]

4 Daretti

3 Etched Champion
4 Godo, Bandit Warlord
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Steel Hellkite
2 metalworker

5 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva

3 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
2 Karn Liberated

So anybody any ideas for my list? 2 metalworkers should stay for mana fixing- they are better monoliths here. Maybe a other equipment? i kicked out sword of l and s because its kinda meh in comparison to fire and ice.

Duratti is beautiful awesome. Play 4. I ordered 4 german since foils dont exist :)

[bruizar]

My biggest concern is your 11-post mana base. Are you flooding out often with 24 lands or is it doable? Ideally, you want to run cavern of souls. Cavern of Souls on human resolves both Godo and Magus of the Moon. Cavern however, doesn't pay for Daretti's mana cost so you'd need even more mountains than you're already running unless you're going to run mana rocks that produce red.

Secondly, you can't really run Volcanic Fallout, Whipflare or Pyrokinesis in your build unfortunately, but I feel like you need something to thwart UR Delvers aggressive openings. How do you plan on winning that matchup, given the fact that they will likely open with a turn 1 Monastery Swiftspear or Delver of Secrets and run wastes (difficult with 11-post) and counters (difficult with daretti, batterskull, tangle wire, karn).

I think I'd going to run Sudden Shock and Volcanic Fallout specifically to remove the needle from UR delver decks.

[Alex Holland]

My biggest concern is your 11-post mana base. Are you flooding out often with 24 lands or is it doable? Ideally, you want to run cavern of souls. Cavern of Souls on human resolves both Godo and Magus of the Moon. Cavern however, doesn't pay for Daretti's mana cost so you'd need even more mountains than you're already running unless you're going to run mana rocks that produce red.

Secondly, you can't really run Volcanic Fallout, Whipflare or Pyrokinesis in your build unfortunately, but I feel like you need something to thwart UR Delvers aggressive openings. How do you plan on winning that matchup, given the fact that they will likely open with a turn 1 Monastery Swiftspear or Delver of Secrets and run wastes (difficult with 11-post) and counters (difficult with daretti, batterskull, tangle wire, karn).

I think I'd going to run Sudden Shock and Volcanic Fallout specifically to remove the needle from UR delver decks.

Manabase is fine, just aint got no room for cavern since daretti is more important to play. I used to play cavern allways in mud but i dont think its really necessary.

I have not played delver yet but i dont really care about delver, tangle wire will stop them death in their tracks while i build up some mana. Also 3 hellkite is good against 3/2 flyers. whipflare can be run in the side, but in that case id rather run ratchet bomb. I do play 2 karn for those cards the deck cant handle.

I have played this against JUND, cloudpost-eldrazi and Death and taxes. Went suprisingly well! especially etched champion equiped with batterskull outraces opponents easy.

[Mockingbird]

So, I'm not sure how this effects us yet, Aaron Forsythe announced at PAX Australia that Wizards of the Coast has found a solution to colorless basic lands. Since I don't have a direct source since video hasn't been posted yet, so the best I have is this link (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/101558595428/aaron-mentioned-something-about-a-colorless-basic-land) where Mark Rosewater answering a question regarding what will not be Barry's Land. I'm not sure what benefits or drawbacks that entails towards us other than MUD will finally have access to Wasteland proof lands... other than the five we already could use if we wanted. Biggest curiosity for me is if this is a gimmick for like a block promotion or even a future colorless commander deck, then what other support cards will be printed along side them to boost their usefulness outside of MUD-EDH.

[bruizar]

Very interesting. I wonder how they'll make it useful since a basic mountain is also wasteland proof but provides a splash color.

[Bobmans]

Very interesting. I wonder how they'll make it useful since a basic mountain is also wasteland proof but provides a splash color.

Agreed, i doubt that there will be any impact on the existing manabase for either MUDPost or WelderMUD. Not even Darksteel Citadel has the impact, while it is both waste proof as it is an artifact.

[bruizar]

I'd like to introduce my Metalworker replacement:

http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Ice_Age/Orcish_Lumberjack.jpg

Turn 1 Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack
Turn 2 Ancient Tomb, Godo Bandit Warlord or Wurmcoil Engine or anything else that's cheaper

Obviously, Crucible of Worlds plays an important role in this deck.


Turn 1 Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack
Turn 2 Sac Taiga, play Crucible of Worlds, play Taiga from Graveyard


RG let's you play cards like Ancient Grudge, Sylvan Library, Krosan Grip, Sudden Shock, Red Elemental Blast, Ruric Thar, Goblin Welder, Daretti, Garruk, etcetera.

Edit:

Also, turn 1 ancient tomb lightming greaves
Turn 2 taiga orcish lumberjack batterskull attack for 4

[Alex Holland]

I'd like to introduce my Metalworker replacement:

http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Ice_Age/Orcish_Lumberjack.jpg

Turn 1 Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack
Turn 2 Ancient Tomb, Godo Bandit Warlord or Wurmcoil Engine or anything else that's cheaper

Obviously, Crucible of Worlds plays an important role in this deck.


Turn 1 Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack
Turn 2 Sac Taiga, play Crucible of Worlds, play Taiga from Graveyard


RG let's you play cards like Ancient Grudge, Sylvan Library, Krosan Grip, Sudden Shock, Red Elemental Blast, Ruric Thar, Goblin Welder, Daretti, Garruk, etcetera.

Edit:

Also, turn 1 ancient tomb lightming greaves
Turn 2 taiga orcish lumberjack batterskull attack for 4

Interesting.. little bit dangerous. But why play him over metalworker? Thats the question.

[Gheizen64]

I'd like to introduce my Metalworker replacement:

http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Ice_Age/Orcish_Lumberjack.jpg

Turn 1 Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack
Turn 2 Ancient Tomb, Godo Bandit Warlord or Wurmcoil Engine or anything else that's cheaper

Obviously, Crucible of Worlds plays an important role in this deck.


Turn 1 Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack
Turn 2 Sac Taiga, play Crucible of Worlds, play Taiga from Graveyard


RG let's you play cards like Ancient Grudge, Sylvan Library, Krosan Grip, Sudden Shock, Red Elemental Blast, Ruric Thar, Goblin Welder, Daretti, Garruk, etcetera.

Edit:

Also, turn 1 ancient tomb lightming greaves
Turn 2 taiga orcish lumberjack batterskull attack for 4

You know, that's actually better than welder in Legacy i think ! Playing 6+ mana robots it's too inconsistent anyway, playing 4-5 mana bots seems better. Wasteland, p.fire, loam for recurring + putting bots in the yard etc ...

How does library + dredge interact anyway? Can u dredge a bonus draw and not pay life?

[bruizar]

Library is only cheatable with 3 consecutive dredges. In that case you don't have to place any cards back nor pay life because you never drew cards in the first place (replacement effect). If you dredge once or twice you will have to pony up. Sylvan Library awesome though.

I think there's a consistent way to power out 3 4 5 and 6 drops with a good mix of Grim Monolith and Orcish Lumberjack. Both of these cards allow you to skip the early game, and advance straight to late game bombs, comparable to how Nic Fit's veteran explorer tries to skip the early game with Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy.

Orcish Lumberjack could be the mana dork for RG Mud (You don't even necessarily need to play with anything green, all you care about is red mana producing forests you can cut down!).

Turn 1 Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack
Turn 2 Ancient Tomb, Trinisphere, Cut down taiga, Crucible of Worlds

At this point, you're in great shape. You can keep black lotus'ing with Orcish Lumberjack, even if you don't draw any more lands, while your opponent must pay a hefty sum for his cheap / fair spells under trinisphere. You're basically 1 wasteland away from winning the game here. Monastery Swiftspear won't grow that big under Trinisphere, and that lone Turn 1 Delver of Secrets is gone after Punishing Fire / Sudden Shock resolves. UR Delver is actually much more winnable than RUG delver because Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, Spell Pierce and Wasteland were always the real threats, not Delver.

Orcish Lumberjack also nullifies Spell Pierce. It's a shame he's only a 1/1. I don't think I want to run Goblin Welder and Orcish Lumberjack together, because Forked Bolt then becomes a nightmare (If I can't find Chalice of the Void). Daretti is still worth playing though, since you accelerate into it, and use its loot into Life from the Loam's, Punishing Fire and artifacts that should be welded in.

I'm not quiet sure whether Life from the Loam or Crucible of Worlds is the better card here. Crucible eats Abrupt Decay and doesn't double as a graveyard filler. Life from the Loam folds to Deathrite Shaman... Then again, Deathrite Shaman eats the lands under Crucible of Worlds too, so it probably doesn't even matter much. Crucible of Worlds plays a little better with Orcish Lumberjack because you don't have to keep paying 1G to get your limited amount of Taigas back.


I'm thinking of the following mana base:
Lands
4 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls

Accelerants
3 Orcish Lumberjack
3 Grim Monolith


Supporting 3 Punishing Fire and 3 Crucible of Worlds 4 Chalice of the Void and 2 Sylvan Library




Still need to decide on the following:..

6 Mana bombs
Inferno Titan
Primeval Titan
Godo, Bandit Warlord
Wurmcoil Engine
Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
Steel Hellkite
?

5 Mana bombs
Batterskull
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
Stormbreath Dragon
Kuldotha Forgemaster
Thragtusk
?

4 Mana bombs
Spellbreaker Behemoth
Doretti, Scrap Savant
Garruk Relentless
Smokestack
Moltensteel Dragon
Flametongue Kavu
Lodestone Golem
Obstinate Baloth
Phyrexian Metamorph (actually 3)
?

3 Mana plays
Courser of Kruphix
Fire Imp
Firespout
Tangle Wire
Trinisphere
Hammer of Purphoros
Magus of the Moon
Blood Moon
Gathan Raiders
Sword of X and Y
Taurean Mauler
Words of War
Words of Wilding
*Words of War and Words of Wilding combo with Sylvan Library. Basically it reads, 3 mana: Deal 6 damage or create 3 2/2's.
*Gathan Raiders is an uncounterable threat that sets up a Daretti activation.
*Hammer of Purphoros transforms lands into artifacts that can be welded, and it provides a steady stream of threats/blockers with Crucible of Worlds. The haste is nice.
*Fire Imp, not better than Punishing Fire, but answers Delver of Secrets and blocks Monastery Swiftspear
*Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon don't look too good in this deck


2 Mana plays
Sylvan Library
Fauna Shaman
Lightning Greaves
Phyrexian Revoker
Sudden Shock

X Spells
Bonfire of the Damned
Postmortem Lunge

[potatodavid]

I'd like to introduce my Metalworker replacement:

http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Ice_Age/Orcish_Lumberjack.jpg

Turn 1 Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack
Turn 2 Ancient Tomb, Godo Bandit Warlord or Wurmcoil Engine or anything else that's cheaper

Obviously, Crucible of Worlds plays an important role in this deck.


Turn 1 Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack
Turn 2 Sac Taiga, play Crucible of Worlds, play Taiga from Graveyard


RG let's you play cards like Ancient Grudge, Sylvan Library, Krosan Grip, Sudden Shock, Red Elemental Blast, Ruric Thar, Goblin Welder, Daretti, Garruk, etcetera.

Edit:

Also, turn 1 ancient tomb lightming greaves
Turn 2 taiga orcish lumberjack batterskull attack for 4

It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas! This is starting to look like a completely different deck than MUD.

[Alex Holland]

It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas! This is starting to look like a completely different deck than MUD.

too be capable to run ruric thar is mouth watering.. too bad orcish lumberjack isnt green, then he could power out a t2 natural order :eek:

Yes this wouldnt be MUD any more, unless you can produce a list thats MUDDY even with lumberjack. I will think about it!

[bruizar]

From the flavor text of Orcish Lumberjack, I'd say Toothlicker MUD makes for a good name. :-). Even though you can use colored cards with Orcish Lumberjack, you still need to be careful not to go overboard on colored cards. Your opponent shouldn't be able to mess up your overall game plan by keeping you off your colors, but accelerating into bombs with Grim Monolith and Orcish Lumberjack would make the deck much more explosive compared to other MUD variants.

One of the cards that I really like myself is Inferno Titan, because he can take care off swarms already on the board, and after the first attack he has already dealt 12 damage (Especially nice with lightning greaves because you can get double triggers which can take care of a Tarmogoyf for example). 21 damage on the second swing.

In a sense, you could keep Godo MUD shell, replace Goblin Welders for Orcish Lumberjacks, and play with Taigas so you just use the forest part for the lotus it provides.. Then again, when you have access to green's best cards, why not take advantage of that?

[bruizar]

Some more Lumberjack shenanigans:

Turn 1 Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack
Turn 2 Land, sacrifice a forest, Titania, Protector of Argoth, return forest to play
Turn 3 attack for 5, sacrifice the same forest again, get another 5/3

Turn 1 Ancient Tomb, Lightning Greaves
Turn 2 Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack, equip Lumberjack, sacrifice a forest, Titania, Protector of Argoth, return Taiga, equip Titania, attack for 5
Turn 3 Sacrifice Taiga, get a 5/3, equip, attack for 10


Song of the Dryads turns a useless permanent into a forest, which you can sacrifice with lumberjack and create a 5/3 with. It can also be used as an oblivion ring.


http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/63/671/635502229576830959.pnghttp://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/63/712/635503584722388385.pnghttp://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Ice_Age/Orcish_Lumberjack.jpg

[Alex Holland]

Some more Lumberjack shenanigans:

Turn 1 Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack
Turn 2 Land, sacrifice a forest, Titania, Protector of Argoth, return forest to play
Turn 3 attack for 5, sacrifice the same forest again, get another 5/3

Turn 1 Ancient Tomb, Lightning Greaves
Turn 2 Taiga, Orcish Lumberjack, equip Lumberjack, sacrifice a forest, Titania, Protector of Argoth, return Taiga, equip Titania, attack for 5
Turn 3 Sacrifice Taiga, get a 5/3, equip, attack for 10


Song of the Dryads turns a useless permanent into a forest, which you can sacrifice with lumberjack and create a 5/3 with. It can also be used as an oblivion ring.


http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/63/671/635502229576830959.pnghttp://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/63/712/635503584722388385.pnghttp://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Ice_Age/Orcish_Lumberjack.jpg

Titania is GG. Thats hard in mud... how does tooth-mud deal what that? Moxen? I think chrome mox is good to turn a extra ruric in to a gr mox. And vexing shusher maybe also? Lol.. throw it together and get something like this: (untested and messy)

4 grim monolith
4 ancient tomb
4 taiga
4 wooded foothills
1 misty rainforest
4 great furnace
4 forest
3 chrome mox

4 orcish lumberjack
4 titania
2 ruric thar
3 baterskull
4 wurmcoil
2 godo bandit warlord
1 emperial recruiter

3 gudetti
1 crucible of worlds
2 sylvan library
3 song of the dryads
3 chaos warp

[bruizar]

Assuming Chrome Mox is needed, here is my analysis on the card:
I'm not sure what's better, Chrome Mox or Spirit Guides. Ruric Thar on a Chrome Mox give you some permanence. This is pretty good given the fact that your taigas are getting chopped down faster than the amazon rainforest. Spirit Guides are one shots, but they don't cost an extra business card, and you can turn them into beat down mode in a squeeze. I don't think we have to fear Ratchet Bomb or explosives on Chrome Mox, because there are much better things to blow up. Mox Diamond is out of the question. Mox Diamond increases variation (mana flooded hands without mox diamond or too little lands with Mox Diamond hands). Even though we can run Life from the Loam and Crucible, we shouldn't be pitching lands. It would over expose us to graveyard hate, and the lands should be chopped down with the Toothlicker anyway.

Between Chrome Mox Spirit Guides (SSG & ESG) and Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox indeed looks like the better choice. However, Chrome Mox doesn't necessarily enable many new lines of play.

The only lines of play it enables are T1: Taiga, Chrome Mox, Grim Monolith (Enables all bombs on turn 2); which leads to six mana on T2. and T1: Land, Chrome Mox Sylvan Library (which is very good); and Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox, Crucible (But you're running only 1 crucible and only 4 sol lands).


I think you're missing plays like:
Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox, Trinisphere
Taiga, Chrome Mox, Chalice for 1
Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox, Crucible of Worlds

Ancient Tomb, Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox is awkward
Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox, Taiga is only enough for Daretti, but you won't have his weld online.

This is not to say that Chrome Mox is bad here; but the lines of play need to be optimized to take advantage of it. Imo that means more City of Traitors and more 3 drops.


I want to play with 3 City of Traitors but I'm not sure how feasible this is. The draw back of City of Traitors is not much of a big deal with Titania in play. Powering out Titania early game basically makes you 'immune' to wastelands, unless the opponent bolts your Titania first. We know how fragile Lodestone Golem is, but at least Titania has to be answered immediately or it started getting out of hand quickly when you can fetch up taigas and chop them down with Toothlicker, while sending City of traitors to the graveyard. City of Traitors really combo's nicely with Titania's built in Crucible of Worlds. I didn't catch this interaction at first..


T1 Taiga Toothlicker
T2 City of Traitors, Titania, Bring back Taiga, City of Traitors leaves play, create 5/3 token. (Now you've already nullified Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt because you already have 2 5/3's).
T3 Attack for 10, Tap Taiga, Sacrifice taiga, make 5/3 token, play something up to 4 mana (or 5 to 6 if you played a land).

- Lightning Greaves enables a 15 power attack
- Godo ends the game on turn 3 with Lightning Greaves. You attack with hasted Godo and 2 5/3's (13 damage), untap Godo, then reequip lightning greaves to the third token and attack for 5 or 8 (Does Godo still have haste if you reequip Lightning Greaves to someone else, even though he already attacked this turn?)
-If you opened with a Wooded Foothills, it gets even more ugly, as you get 3 5/3's on turn 2 (Bring Back foothills, City of Traitor dies (get 5/3), Crack foothills (get 5/3), grab Taiga


The more I think of it, the more convinced I am that your list needs to cut 4x Great Furnace and 4x Forest for City of Traitors and fetch lands. If there's too much fetch, add Stomping Ground

[bruizar]

Name:
Toothlicker MUD
Chop-Chop
Turbo Tits (Titania)

Land 21
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Cavern of Souls


Accelerants 8
4 Grim Monolith
4 Orcish Lumberjack


Utility 6
2 Sylvan Library
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Crucible of Worlds


Disruption 10
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Choke
3 Trinisphere


Bombs 11
1 Karn Liberated
4 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Batterskull
2 Godo, Bandit Warlord
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed


Spot Removal 4
4 Sudden Shock


Took the maindeck Chokes from Lejay's green butt plug thread

[potatodavid]

Name:
Toothlicker MUD
Chop-Chop
Turbo Tits (Titania)

Land 21
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Cavern of Souls


Accelerants 8
4 Grim Monolith
4 Orcish Lumberjack


Utility 6
2 Sylvan Library
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Crucible of Worlds


Disruption 10
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Choke
3 Trinisphere


Bombs 11
1 Karn Liberated
4 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Batterskull
2 Godo, Bandit Warlord
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed


Spot Removal 4
4 Sudden Shock


Took the maindeck Chokes from Lejay's green butt plug thread


maybe new and developing decks?

[bruizar]

Will brew in private and start a new thread when I feel it is ready. The name will be Chop-Shop Aggro (Cause Lumberjack turns your forests into Workshops!) :-)

[Bobmans]

Will brew in private and start a new thread when I feel it is ready. The name will be Chop-Shop Aggro (Cause Lumberjack turns your forests into Workshops!) :-)

Curious to where that will lead you. I justed ordered 3 Daretti's for my Weldretti MUD list i posted earlier. After the Gameforce NK i will be focussing on that and dropping what i currently play.

Also curious how much an impact that Containment Priest will have on the format. It does make Welder and Forgemaster a bit dangerous to play into. Perhaps Daretti and Welder/Master shenanigans into huge amounts of mana and then drop the bombs from your hand.

[potatodavid]

Curious to where that will lead you. I justed ordered 3 Daretti's for my Weldretti MUD list i posted earlier. After the Gameforce NK i will be focussing on that and dropping what i currently play.

Also curious how much an impact that Containment Priest will have on the format. It does make Welder and Forgemaster a bit dangerous to play into. Perhaps Daretti and Welder/Master shenanigans into huge amounts of mana and then drop the bombs from your hand.

I maintain most MUD games are won via, Turn 1 Chalice on 1. Turn 2 Trinisphere/Lodestone Golem. BEAT FACE.

[potatodavid]

Curious to where that will lead you. I justed ordered 3 Daretti's for my Weldretti MUD list i posted earlier. After the Gameforce NK i will be focussing on that and dropping what i currently play.

Also curious how much an impact that Containment Priest will have on the format. It does make Welder and Forgemaster a bit dangerous to play into. Perhaps Daretti and Welder/Master shenanigans into huge amounts of mana and then drop the bombs from your hand.

I maintain most MUD games are won via, Turn 1 Chalice on 1. Turn 2 Trinisphere/Lodestone Golem. BEAT FACE. I wouldn't worry about the priest.

[Bobmans]

I maintain most MUD games are won via, Turn 1 Chalice on 1. Turn 2 Trinisphere/Lodestone Golem. BEAT FACE. I wouldn't worry about the priest.
That or T2/3 hasted Blightsteel colossus

[Mr. Froggy]

I played MUD today at my LGS, won the whole thing.

I had some pretty busted plays to boot.

Also I run a normal list but I play 4 Caverns instead of Wasteland because I sold off my Wastelands a few months back and didn't want to buy them again. I was glad I played the Caverns though because being able to force through permission a Metalworker is game ending.

[rlesko]

I played MUD today at my LGS, won the whole thing.

I had some pretty busted plays to boot.

Also I run a normal list but I play 4 Caverns instead of Wasteland because I sold off my Wastelands a few months back and didn't want to buy them again. I was glad I played the Caverns though because being able to force through permission a Metalworker is game ending.

Post a list?

I've been toying with the idea of playing MUD in new jersey as a meta call....but the UR match up seems to be boom or bust on opening with chalice for 1.

For reference, my MUD list is as follows (I am a firm believer in Post Mud vs red splash)

24 land
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls

18 Creatures
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Batterskull
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus

18 Other
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Grim Monolith
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Trading Post
1 Staff of Nin

[Mr. Froggy]

I haven't played UR Delver much, but one thing is for sure: RUG Delver is an amazing match-up for us. The only way my friend beat was with triple Wasteland into Surgical.

[Mockingbird]

I've been toying with the idea of playing MUD in new jersey as a meta call....but the UR match up seems to be boom or bust on opening with chalice for 1.


I get lot of mileage out of Trinisphere and Glimmerpost, and Grim Monolith has made Trinisphere a semi-regular T1 play for me. I've been doing pretty good with MUD-Post with or without Chalice at one, but the game definitely is about getting a faster handle on opponents. Right now though, rather than getting a handle on opponents before they establish dominance, it's handle opponents before they win, like combo, but Delve(r) just punches hard until death. Early Wurmcoil Engine is also difficult for them to pull back, which is generally my primary aim with or without Chalice or Trinisphere.

[rlesko]

I get lot of mileage out of Trinisphere and Glimmerpost, and Grim Monolith has made Trinisphere a semi-regular T1 play for me. I've been doing pretty good with MUD-Post with or without Chalice at one, but the game definitely is about getting a faster handle on opponents. Right now though, rather than getting a handle on opponents before they establish dominance, it's handle opponents before they win, like combo, but Delve(r) just punches hard until death. Early Wurmcoil Engine is also difficult for them to pull back, which is generally my primary aim with or without Chalice or Trinisphere.

I literally barely won a game with an uncounterable turn 2 wurmcoil engine on the play. My friend actually triple bolted (the wurmcoil, then the deathtouch token). That deck draws so many cards it can make up for the card disadvantage from force of will or spending more than 1 bolt on a creature. I think I'm going to cut the staff of nin - seems a bit slow in the current meta, I would add another wurmcoil engine if I had one so maybe it will have to be a batterskull. The steel hellkite has been meh but I like having multiple outs to hordes of tokens (delver or dredge). Also, I have been horrible at side boarding with this deck.

[bruizar]

So I found a card that looks like how we first interpreted volcanic offering

http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Zendikar/Lavaball_Trap.jpg

[Mockingbird]

So I found a card that looks like how we first interpreted volcanic offering

http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Zendikar/Lavaball_Trap.jpg

The :r::r: kills it for me. I'd rather go with Sundering Titan at that point because I have a chance to cheat it in with Forgemaster.

[bruizar]

Agreed, it triggers off of fetch, which is already an issue because it becomes conditional (although no one expects it). RR is really too much of a stretch. If Volcanic Offering functioned the way we wished, then this could have been VO #5-6, but by itself its not good enough I think.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

And don't play it in response to them cracking the fetch, though. Fail to Find is a thing.

[GenghisTom]

How does this deck do against pox? What to board in?

[honz]

How does this deck do against pox? What to board in?

Pox is one of the worst matchups for this deck. Because the curve is so high, and we play a small number of actual creatures, pox is the perfect card against this deck. If they run liliana, phyrexian revokers are decent. Might want to bring them in just to have some trash to sac. Against loam-pox, graveyard hate is an option, but likely not that effective of one. Crucible of worlds is probably the best card to have against pox, but in general I don't think it is good enough to run. Red versions also stand a better chance against pox decks since they can abuse the discard effect with welder/daretti. Myr battlesphere is a good kuldotha target here.

Honestly, its just a terrible matchup. Try to make sure you have a 2nd creature to play alongside your welder/metalworker/kuldotha, and hope they cant answer both at once. Lightning greaves and grim monolith are pretty key cards here.

[whatwas]

Joseph santomassino is 9-0 and on SCGLive right now, starting off day two of GPNJ.

[Mockingbird]

Joseph santomassino is 9-0 and on SCGLive right now, starting off day two of GPNJ.

Joseph won 2-1.
G1, Trinisphere wins.
G2: Loss to Wasteland x3
G3: Chalice and Trinisphere lockout.

I like what the commentators said: Opponent has to counter everything.

[LLCoolDave]

I was thoroughly confused by some of his sequencing, especially the way he seems to randomly float arbitrary amounts of mana while casting spells, sometimes even having some of it empty out of his mana pool at the end of a phase (he tapped 7 for a Wurmcoil at some point, for instance). Is there some strategic element to that or is it just some next level stream trolling?

[Machinus]

Is Sanotmassino on this forum? Or does he write for anyone?

[Mockingbird]

Joseph is being featured again against Jeskai American Delve(r). He's 12-1 right now. I'm having video problems though, so someone else will have to report the outcome.

Edit: I got the video back in time to see him lose in game 3.

[Surfinbird]

he lost:(

[FlyingSkull13]

loss in 3 games to u/w/r, he mullied each game and brian had all the answers to all the questions

[Mockingbird]

Is Sanotmassino on this forum? Or does he write for anyone?
I found his decklist:
//Creatures (20)
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Angel
3 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

//Lands (24)
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
2 Wasteland

//Spells (16)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff Of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
4 Trinisphere

//Sideboard
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Lightning Greaves
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Duplicant
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
3 Mindbreak Trap

Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/day_1_undefeated_decklists.html (Control F Metalworker)

[Machinus]

I found his decklist:
//Creatures (20)
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Angel
3 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

//Lands (24)
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
2 Wasteland

//Spells (16)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff Of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
4 Trinisphere

//Sideboard
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Lightning Greaves
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Duplicant
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
3 Mindbreak Trap

Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/day_1_undefeated_decklists.html (Control F Metalworker)


I have the deck. I wanted to ask him some questions.

[Bobmans]

MUD top8 GPNJ
Go go win them all!!

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

Here's the decklist! Congratulation to Joseph Santomassino!

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Nin
1 Staff of Domination
4 Grim Monolith
1 Spine of Ish Sah
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Lightning Greaves
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Duplicant
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Emperion
3 Mindbreak Trap

[(nameless one)]

It's unfortunate that he faced U/W/r Stoneblade in the Quarters. I find that matchup to be one of the hardest since they have so much answers to what the deck does when it doesn't have Chalice for 1. Even then, it has Wear/Tear postboard and can just go aggro with Stoneforge Mystic and suited up TNN.

Anyways, good job to Santomassino for going to Top8 in a 4000 man tournament with the deck that has variance as its greatest weakness

[Charon]

Mud was EVERYWHERE at the GP. I've never seen it at such numbers.

[Mockingbird]

Mud was EVERYWHERE at the GP. I've never seen it at such numbers.

With as low as curves have gotten to enable Treasure Cruise, Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere are excellent in the format right now. Also, with Wasteland seeing less play, the shakiness of our manabases has dwindled in some sense.

On another note, am I the only one that thinks three Sundering Titans is too much right now? I'm content with two.

[potatodavid]

With as low as curves have gotten to enable Treasure Cruise, Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere are excellent in the format right now. Also, with Wasteland seeing less play, the shakiness of our manabases has dwindled in some sense.

On another note, am I the only one that thinks three Sundering Titans is too much right now? I'm content with two.

I agree. I fee 2 titan is perfect, his extra titans were probably upped because of how much U/R delver or just delver in general was going to show up this weekend at GPNJ.

[lilevo]

With as low as curves have gotten to enable Treasure Cruise, Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere are excellent in the format right now. Also, with Wasteland seeing less play, the shakiness of our manabases has dwindled in some sense.

On another note, am I the only one that thinks three Sundering Titans is too much right now? I'm content with two.

I completely agree with the less wastelands in the format the better it is for MUD, with that being said I think right now it's a great time to play MUD.

[potatodavid]

I completely agree with the less wastelands in the format the better it is for MUD, with that being said I think right now it's a great time to play MUD.

Never thought I would see that said again.

I feel everyone playing treasure cruise/dig through time has really opened up a lot more deck variety in Legacy. Dredge winning an event a few weeks ago, MUD making top 8. Good time to be playing legacy.

[bruizar]

UR delver is a strict downgrade from RUG delver. I'm stoked about it, although I suspect people may soon abandon the TC bandwagon after coming to the same conclusion. They will realize that the graveyard is a resource (that must also be used sparingly!) and that delve 7 to draw land lightning bolt delver is worst than activating grim lavamancer 3 times, snapcasting a bolt from the graveyard, or having a supersized tarmogoyf. Consequently, they will notice that they don't have tempo plays like Spell Pierce, Daze and Wasteland anymore, which seriously trumped the win percentages of MUD. Resolving Wurmcoil Engine has never been this easy. UR Delver players will also notice how people don't have to run BG for Abrupt Decay anymore, but can simply run the elegantly costed Sudden Shock to trump every threat they have (and they are light on threats). Perhaps RUG delver will come back with Hooting Mandrills (which delves a lot cheaper), but for now, let's all feast and have a field day with MUD!

[potatodavid]

UR delver is a strict downgrade from RUG delver. I'm stoked about it, although I suspect people may soon abandon the TC bandwagon after coming to the same conclusion. They will realize that the graveyard is a resource and that delve 7 to draw land lightning bolt delver is worst than activating grim lavamancer 3 times, snapcasting a bolt from the graveyard, or having a supersized tarmogoyf. Consequently, they will notice that they don't have tempo plays like Spell Pierce, Daze and Wasteland anymore, which seriously trumped the win percentages of MUD. Resolving Wurmcoil Engine has never been this easy. UR Delver players will also notice how people don't have to run BG for Abrupt Decay anymore, but can simply run the elegantly costed Sudden Shock to trump every threat they have (and they are light on threats).

U/R delver appeals to many because it's a burn deck with counter magic. It's a not really better or worse because U/R plays completely differently to RUG so it's not really an apples to apples comparison... I think UR delver is better against us than RUG delver, only when they're playing Price of Progress. Which seems to be about 50% of the UR delver decks out there are playing that. If not, they're gonna have a bad time. RUG has never been an unwinnable match-up for us U/R is stopped in its tracks by turn 1 chalice/turn2 trinisphere. Most of the time.

[Loxmatii]

my current staxx build
with a lot of defence and main_removal

what do you think, friends?

/ Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
3 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
generals:
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ARC] Sundering Titan

golems:
4 [ARC] Lodestone Golem

our friend:
1 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph

those 6mana fellows
2 [SOM] Steel Hellkite
4 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine

// Spells
removal:
2 [NPH] Karn Liberated
1 [M13] Staff of Nin
3 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
1 [ROE] All Is Dust

mana:
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
2 [UD] Thran Dynamo
2 [US] Voltaic Key

defence:
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [NE] Tangle Wire



// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 2 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [DS] Sundering Titan
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere\


may be second karn will go to side board, and second all is dust from side to main

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

What about Mindbreak Trap in the sideboard? Storm is a good match-up, so why put three copy of Mindbreak Trap in the sideboard? I'm talking about the list of Grand Prix New Jersey top 8.

[Mockingbird]

What about Mindbreak Trap in the sideboard? Storm is a good match-up, so why put three copy of Mindbreak Trap in the sideboard? I'm talking about the list of Grand Prix New Jersey top 8.

Decks besides Storm power out more than 3 spells in a turn (the ones that come to mind are Elves! and Reanimator). Also, it adds redundancy so we don't have to mulligan as aggressively for Chalice or Trinisphere in matches where we either disrupt or die.

That being said, I don't personally run them.

[fogxanic]

5/16 Decks at GPNJ played Containment Priests on sb. Thats nasty creature against our Forgemaster. But better for us is that many plays Pyroblasts in maindeck which does nothing against us. Still many dazes and fows in decks disrupts our artifacts :really: Here in my local meta people play lots of UR and Miracles so it's still not very good deck to play in here.

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

Here in my local meta people play lots of UR and Miracles so it's still not very good deck to play in here.
Miracle is an easy match-up! :wink:

[potatodavid]

5/16 Decks at GPNJ played Containment Priests on sb. Thats nasty creature against our Forgemaster. But better for us is that many plays Pyroblasts in maindeck which does nothing against us. Still many dazes and fows in decks disrupts our artifacts :really: Here in my local meta people play lots of UR and Miracles so it's still not very good deck to play in here.

Miracles is a horseshit match up for us. It's not unwinnable but it's extremely difficult.

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

Miracles is a horseshit match up for us. It's not unwinnable but it's extremely difficult.

Really? Miracle is one of the easiest match-ups! If you don't know how to play against it, don't tell that's difficult!

[fogxanic]

Really? Miracle is one of the easiest match-ups! If you don't know how to play against it, don't tell that's difficult!

Their deck is pretty good against us. Swords and terminus for our creatures. If our board is clean and they drop Jace it's basically game over. Once I destroyed 5 of their lands with Sundering Titan (2 ETB and 1 LTB after next turn terminus) and 2 wastelands. Still he got back in the game and won. Good cards would be Staff of Nins, once I had 3 of them (1 metamorph) on T4 against Maverick and he scooped soon. Well that was my old stompy build with old legendary rule so metamorphs were better. Ok start were fast metalworker and tap for 3 lodestone golems GG :smile:

[rlesko]

Miracles is a horseshit match up for us. It's not unwinnable but it's extremely difficult.

Disagree. If you're on a post/cavern build miracles feels like a bye. If you're fucking with Goblin welder and shit then maybe.

[honz]

I was thoroughly confused by some of his sequencing, especially the way he seems to randomly float arbitrary amounts of mana while casting spells, sometimes even having some of it empty out of his mana pool at the end of a phase (he tapped 7 for a Wurmcoil at some point, for instance). Is there some strategic element to that or is it just some next level stream trolling?

He looked to be playing around daze, as a lot of stoneblade decks run it. Although he did seem rather uneasy. Props to him anyhow, he clearly knows what he is doing with the deck. I imagine the mindbreak traps were aimed at the faster combo decks that can go off before we ever get a chance to chalice or trinisphere (belcher/all spells/tendrils with great hands). Also with only 8 relevant cards against TES, one duress can be game over. Upping that to 11 can make a huge difference.

Containment priest hasn't been as big of an issue as I expected it to be. I've only seen 4 decks that run this card (miracles, stoneblade, maverick, death and taxes), and they only run it in the sideboard. Post-sideboard, we have a great non-creature card to get with kuldotha. Against maverick and D&T contagion engine is usually game ending. Against miracles, staff of nin is very strong. Stoneblade is more situational. If they have board pressure, contagion engine is good. If they have no threats, staff of nin is a solid option. Staff of domination can also be good to tap down their batterskull/jitte, or just draw cards.

Miracles is a favorable matchup for welder and post versions of the deck, but far from a bye. All it takes is a couple counters/StP followed by a quick entreat, and you can easily lose this. The matchup gets better the more of these you run: cavern of souls, batterskull, staff of nin, sundering titan, daretti, scrap savant.

[(nameless one)]

Disagree. If you're on a post/cavern build miracles feels like a bye. If you're fucking with Goblin welder and shit then maybe.

They can still swords, termini and jace bounce your threats (that aren't as much). You can argue all you want with Chalice at one but you won't always have it and trying to mulligan for it seems like a step back when they can Force/Spell Pierce it.

The deck is too threat light and the disruption package can be played around. Not to mention you have to hit everything all at the right time.

I find that the best way to play against miracle is to try to jam as much threats as you can. None of the Metalworker/artifact ramp crap. Postboard, I find that Smokestack is a beating against this deck (and any midrange/permanent based decks). Though once they land a protected Jace, it's hard to win from there.

[whatwas]

If miracles is your weakness, try mishra's factory, once you have chalice at one down, there are few things they can do to you.

A lot of decks don't run wastelands atm which makes factory that much better

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

In an Italian forum we say that Miracle is a good match-up for MUD. In Italy Miracle seems most used than in the United States and I know that we have a lot of threats for the deck, even if is important to know how to play against Miracle. The 12-post version is really good against them.

[potatodavid]

Really? Miracle is one of the easiest match-ups! If you don't know how to play against it, don't tell that's difficult!

I stopped running caverns. Last time I played it, it was completely miserable. He managed to get counter/top going game 1. Followed by Jace + Venser so I can't play anything without it getting bounced.

Game 2, back to basics made sure I wasn't casting anything. When I did cast something, it was countered. I got a metalworker in play. Swords. It's a bad matchup.

[Sockosensei]

I stopped running caverns. Last time I played it, it was completely miserable.

Cavern of Souls is essential, even in 12-Post builds.
With MUD's inconsistency, we need every big-hitter we draw to resolve because we don't have easy ways to restock our hand in the mid- to late-game.

I've been running the following manabase with success:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

Cavern of Souls is essential, even in 12-Post builds.
With MUD's inconsistency, we need every big-hitter we draw to resolve because we don't have easy ways to restock our hand in the mid- to late-game.
I agree.


I've been running the following manabase with success:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
I prefer the GP's manabase: sol lands are essential, you can't play only 2 City of Traitors. I hate to play only 2 Wasteland, but seems the only way to play Cavern of Souls in our 24 slots for lands. I remember that Cavern of Souls are useless against non-blue decks, so play 4 copies may be too much.

[TheYoungster]

I stopped running caverns. Last time I played it, it was completely miserable. He managed to get counter/top going game 1. Followed by Jace + Venser so I can't play anything without it getting bounced.

Game 2, back to basics made sure I wasn't casting anything. When I did cast something, it was countered. I got a metalworker in play. Swords. It's a bad matchup.

I wouldn't say miracles is a bad match up, but it is by no means a bye. We have a lot of cards they have to counter and they just get so far behind they can't come back. They only have so many removal spells and they won't always draw them and if they don't have top, or we resolve a chalice for 1, then they are going to be very hard pressed to deal with everything we present. The thing you have to understand about miracles is that they don't really generate early game card advantage against us so they usually have don't have answers to all of our threats. They generate early game card quality with top but if we land a chalice or a 3 sphere then they can easily get overwhelmed and can't deal with everything. Once we land a trinisphere or chalice then they are in a position where they pretty much have to counter everything and if there is no top they have to naturally find terminus which makes it a lot easier. Their best card against us is jace, but that is a four drop and they might have to play out non basics which can slow them down further if we have wastelands. Sundering titan is one of the best threats against them since they can't profitably terminus most of the time, but the best cards are the noncreature cards like chalice, trinisphere, or staff of nin or karn, which is why I think that cavern is a flawed strategy since they are more than well equipped to deal with creatures.

[Airwave]

Cavern of Souls is essential, even in 12-Post builds.
With MUD's inconsistency, we need every big-hitter we draw to resolve because we don't have easy ways to restock our hand in the mid- to late-game.

I've been running the following manabase with success:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland

It depends on your list. If you play a full set of Trinisphere's the Caverns are more or less redundant. Good luck keeping 3 mana open at all time to cast your daze of FOW... :tongue:

[Sockosensei]

It depends on your list. If you play a full set of Trinisphere's the Caverns are more or less redundant. Good luck keeping 3 mana open at all time to cast your daze of FOW... :tongue:

That's a level of redundancy that I'm happy to have because it's never a guarantee that Trinisphere resolves and stays in play.

[Airwave]

That's a level of redundancy that I'm happy to have because it's never a guarantee that Trinisphere resolves and stays in play.

That's true.

Also depends on the number of creatures in your list of course. If you plan with Karn as a substite for some creatures, as I do, Cavern has less use.
In my Welder version I use 4, although I'd rather play 8 :wink:

[honz]

I got 3rd this past weekend at a local tournament with this list. I can write a report if anyone cares:

4 Goblin welder
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha forgemaster
3 Lodestone golem

1 Blighsteel colossus
1 Platinum emperion
1 Sundering titan
1 Myr battlesphere
1 Wurmcoil engine
1 Godo, bandit warlord
1 Batterskull

3 Daretti, scrap savant
1 Staff of domination

4 Chalice of the void
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Thousand-year elixir

3 Grim monolith
4 Ancient tomb
4 City of traitors
4 Cavern of souls
4 Great furnace
4 Wasteland
3 Mountain

Sideboard:
3 Tormods crypt
2 Phryexian revoker
2 Ratchet bomb
2 Torpor orb
1 Trinisphere
1 Steel hellkite
1 Contagion engine
1 Platinum angel
1 Spine of ish sah
1 Duplicant


Emperion and daretti were both amazing. The only change I would make to the main is to drop the 2nd greaves in favor of a 3rd elixir. Since most people will just hold mana open for their swords/decays/bolts/whatever (especially when they see a greaves on the table), elixir has just been a better card. The ability to get double activations out of worker, welder, and kuldotha (get myr battlsphere, untap, sac 3 tokens, get something else) is relevant as well. I would love to find room for a 4th lodestone, but the golem has been the weakest card in the deck for me with all the lightning bolts running around. It feels like a 4 mana hydroblast most of the time.

I'm going to try pyroclasm or something similar in the board over the ratchet bombs, as so many people are tending towards young pyro decks. I also would drop the torpor orbs for more combo hate, trinispheres most likely.

Overall, I think the 12-post version is more consistent and has more lumbering inevitability, but I find this version more intricate, explosive, and funner to play.

[manugl84]

I got 3rd this past weekend at a local tournament with this list. I can write a report if anyone cares:

4 Goblin welder
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha forgemaster
3 Lodestone golem

1 Blighsteel colossus
1 Platinum emperion
1 Sundering titan
1 Myr battlesphere
1 Wurmcoil engine
1 Godo, bandit warlord
1 Batterskull

3 Daretti, scrap savant
1 Staff of domination

4 Chalice of the void
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Thousand-year elixir

3 Grim monolith
4 Ancient tomb
4 City of traitors
4 Cavern of souls
4 Great furnace
4 Wasteland
3 Mountain

Sideboard:
3 Tormods crypt
2 Phryexian revoker
2 Ratchet bomb
2 Torpor orb
1 Trinisphere
1 Steel hellkite
1 Contagion engine
1 Platinum angel
1 Spine of ish sah
1 Duplicant


Emperion and daretti were both amazing. The only change I would make to the main is to drop the 2nd greaves in favor of a 3rd elixir. Since most people will just hold mana open for their swords/decays/bolts/whatever (especially when they see a greaves on the table), elixir has just been a better card. The ability to get double activations out of worker, welder, and kuldotha (get myr battlsphere, untap, sac 3 tokens, get something else) is relevant as well. I would love to find room for a 4th lodestone, but the golem has been the weakest card in the deck for me with all the lightning bolts running around. It feels like a 4 mana hydroblast most of the time.

I'm going to try pyroclasm or something similar in the board over the ratchet bombs, as so many people are tending towards young pyro decks. I also would drop the torpor orbs for more combo hate, trinispheres most likely.

Overall, I think the 12-post version is more consistent and has more lumbering inevitability, but I find this version more intricate, explosive, and funner to play.

I'd love to read about daretti :cool:

[kingtk3]

Same here.
I think Daretti does everything that MUD wants (card selection and gives another use to spent monoliths and extra chalices and trinispheres, not to talk about the ultimate), and it's a shame that until now it's not have been exploited.

My principal issue is the mana base: after testing the post version (4 city, 4 tomb, 4 cloudpost, 4 glimmerpost, 3 vesuva, 2 wasteland, 3 cavern of souls) I've been very happy to be able to cast wurmcoil without monolith or metalworker, so I'm hesitant about changing it.

Theoretically for 3 daretti at least 6 red sources are needed (7 would be better), so I should drop 2 wastelands, 1 vesuva and 3 caverns/2 cavern and 1 city, but it would be sad to lose uncounterability...

What are your thoughts about it?

[(nameless one)]

I got 3rd this past weekend at a local tournament with this list. I can write a report if anyone cares:

4 Goblin welder
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha forgemaster
3 Lodestone golem

1 Blighsteel colossus
1 Platinum emperion
1 Sundering titan
1 Myr battlesphere
1 Wurmcoil engine
1 Godo, bandit warlord
1 Batterskull

3 Daretti, scrap savant
1 Staff of domination

4 Chalice of the void
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Thousand-year elixir

3 Grim monolith
4 Ancient tomb
4 City of traitors
4 Cavern of souls
4 Great furnace
4 Wasteland
3 Mountain

Sideboard:
3 Tormods crypt
2 Phryexian revoker
2 Ratchet bomb
2 Torpor orb
1 Trinisphere
1 Steel hellkite
1 Contagion engine
1 Platinum angel
1 Spine of ish sah
1 Duplicant


Emperion and daretti were both amazing. The only change I would make to the main is to drop the 2nd greaves in favor of a 3rd elixir. Since most people will just hold mana open for their swords/decays/bolts/whatever (especially when they see a greaves on the table), elixir has just been a better card. The ability to get double activations out of worker, welder, and kuldotha (get myr battlsphere, untap, sac 3 tokens, get something else) is relevant as well. I would love to find room for a 4th lodestone, but the golem has been the weakest card in the deck for me with all the lightning bolts running around. It feels like a 4 mana hydroblast most of the time.

I'm going to try pyroclasm or something similar in the board over the ratchet bombs, as so many people are tending towards young pyro decks. I also would drop the torpor orbs for more combo hate, trinispheres most likely.

Overall, I think the 12-post version is more consistent and has more lumbering inevitability, but I find this version more intricate, explosive, and funner to play.

What was your local meta like? Also, I would love to hear more as well.

I am wondering, why aren't you using Tangle Wires?


Same here.
I think Daretti does everything that MUD wants (card selection and gives another use to spent monoliths and extra chalices and trinispheres, not to talk about the ultimate), and it's a shame that until now it's not have been exploited.

My principal issue is the mana base: after testing the post version (4 city, 4 tomb, 4 cloudpost, 4 glimmerpost, 3 vesuva, 2 wasteland, 3 cavern of souls) I've been very happy to be able to cast wurmcoil without monolith or metalworker, so I'm hesitant about changing it.

Theoretically for 3 daretti at least 6 red sources are needed (7 would be better), so I should drop 2 wastelands, 1 vesuva and 3 caverns/2 cavern and 1 city, but it would be sad to lose uncounterability...

What are your thoughts about it?

I am also surprise it saw little to no play at GPNJ. When I heard "a lot of MUD" in day one, I was expecting to see Darettis on the coverage.

I think that version of the deck doesn't need the slower Post manabase because you have multiple ways to get robots onto the field; whether you weld them or Forgemaster them. And reaching 6 mana with Sol Lands+Utility Lands is attainable.

-------
Once I get some available time, I will update the primer with all the goodies this archetype has been getting.

[potatodavid]

I got 3rd this past weekend at a local tournament with this list. I can write a report if anyone cares:

4 Goblin welder
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha forgemaster
3 Lodestone golem

1 Blighsteel colossus
1 Platinum emperion
1 Sundering titan
1 Myr battlesphere
1 Wurmcoil engine
1 Godo, bandit warlord
1 Batterskull

3 Daretti, scrap savant
1 Staff of domination

4 Chalice of the void
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Thousand-year elixir

3 Grim monolith
4 Ancient tomb
4 City of traitors
4 Cavern of souls
4 Great furnace
4 Wasteland
3 Mountain

Sideboard:
3 Tormods crypt
2 Phryexian revoker
2 Ratchet bomb
2 Torpor orb
1 Trinisphere
1 Steel hellkite
1 Contagion engine
1 Platinum angel
1 Spine of ish sah
1 Duplicant


Emperion and daretti were both amazing. The only change I would make to the main is to drop the 2nd greaves in favor of a 3rd elixir. Since most people will just hold mana open for their swords/decays/bolts/whatever (especially when they see a greaves on the table), elixir has just been a better card. The ability to get double activations out of worker, welder, and kuldotha (get myr battlsphere, untap, sac 3 tokens, get something else) is relevant as well. I would love to find room for a 4th lodestone, but the golem has been the weakest card in the deck for me with all the lightning bolts running around. It feels like a 4 mana hydroblast most of the time.

I'm going to try pyroclasm or something similar in the board over the ratchet bombs, as so many people are tending towards young pyro decks. I also would drop the torpor orbs for more combo hate, trinispheres most likely.

Overall, I think the 12-post version is more consistent and has more lumbering inevitability, but I find this version more intricate, explosive, and funner to play.



Oh, Do Tell.

[maCHOOga]

I've moved off of MUD to 12Post, but I'm thinking about playing a Daretti, scrap savant brew during the week.

Did anyone figure out busted artifacts beyond the normal with him? I've played against him and EDH and he seems like a PW that is very easy to ultimate. I'm going to start my old tangle wire list and start from there.

Is the opinion that Daretti x3 is the optimal number? I will probably shave a few welders since they are pretty much redundant cards.

[bruizar]

I've moved off of MUD to 12Post, but I'm thinking about playing a Daretti, scrap savant brew during the week.

Did anyone figure out busted artifacts beyond the normal with him? I've played against him and EDH and he seems like a PW that is very easy to ultimate. I'm going to start my old tangle wire list and start from there.

Is the opinion that Daretti x3 is the optimal number? I will probably shave a few welders since they are pretty much redundant cards.

I'll post mine Saturday. I feel it's very close to what I want it to be. It runs Choke, Punishing Fire, Sylvan Library, Tangle Wire, Trinisphere, Contagion Engine, Chalice of the Void, Daretti, and Serrated Arrows. I am still considering Possesed Portal, Sundering Titan, Wurmcoil Engine and 2 Batterskull+1 Godo.

[honz]

Here we go then, 5 rounds of swiss and then top 8. Incoming wall of text

UR burn w/ swiftspear
g1: On the draw, I drop a turn 1 chalice at 1 even though he has a goblin guide. He just drops eidolon and passes. I block the eidolon with kuldotha, and he attempts to burn kuldotha, forcing the activation. He has the goblin guide to chump block blighsteel, so I grab the emperion. I gotta sac the chalice and this almost bites me in the ass, as he has triple bolt in hand to kill the emperion, but a daretti grabs it back for the win.
-4 welder -titan +trinisphere +2 ratchet +2 revoker (for blockers)

g2: My 7 has a wasteland and a bunch of 5cc + stuff. I try the 6 with chalice and not much else. The game comes down to him tapping out for a price of progress, and me having to waste my own land to survive on 3 life with a mountain and greaves in play. With tomb + staff of domination in hand, all i need is a topdecked metalworker for infinite life. I rip a blightsteel instead.

g3: He burns 2 metalworkers, which gives me enough time to get out elixir + kuldotha. He doesn't have a creature, so I grab the blightsteel with plenty of life. He shows me the smash to smithereens he was saving for the emperion. 1-0

UR snapcaster/dualcaster mage control
g1: I have a turn 2 uncounterable wurmcoil engine on the play. I understand that's pretty good against red decks.
-1 emperion +1 trinisphere (didn't really know what he was playing)

g2: He has 2x smash to smithereens, with snapcaster and dualcaster to make it 4x smash to smithereens. Between that and my ancient tomb, this wasn't much of a game.
-titan -1 greaves +2 torpor orb

g3: I have the turn 1 chalice at 1, and he doesn't have the force. He also cant cantrip to find his smash to smithereens, so has to draw it the old fashion way. He doesn't before kuldotha finds a blighsteel. He does get to show me all the pretty stifles and brainstorms in his hand. 2-0

UWr miracles
g1: Hand with mountain, cavern, welder, metalworkerx2, kuldotha, blighsteel. Welder eats a sword, metalworker eats a sword, metalworker #2 eats a snapcaster -> sword, and kuldotha finds a terminus. However his counter-top is about all he has left, and it misses the daretti. Daretti goes to work, finding a batterskull for the win.
-emperion -2 greaves +2 revoker +1 ratchet (for entreat)

g2: I have a turn 2 chalice at 1, which gets forced. That clears the way for turn 3 daretti. He doesn't have an answer for it in the 1 turn he has between when the sundering titan I have in my hand becomes the sundering titan I have in play. He has to sword the titan, but daretti finds me a wurmcoil engine and a goblin welder. Wurm tokens go the distance. 3-0

Elves
g1: I have an innocent turn 2 lightning greaves. He makes a bunch of mana and a bunch of elves, but is tapped out except for a 1/1. You know the drill. Metalworker -> kuldotha -> blighsteel -> face.
-4 welder -1 daretti -godo -wurmcoil -batterskull -titan +2 revoker +contagion +2 ratchet +2 torpor +hellkite +trinisphere

g2: I have kuldotha turn 2, and almost feel confidant. He has to zenith for reclamation sage on his turn. Luckily I have a daretti to get it back. He doesn't win that turn, and I get to tap kuldotha for a contagion engine and activate it (putting 2 counters on daretti). He reads daretti's ultimate and scoops them up before I even get a chance to use it. 4-0

UWr stoneblade with young pyro
g1: I have turn 2 daretti off a monolith, dropping battelsphere and kuldotha into grave. I cheat in the kuldotha and daretti eats a bolt. He finds a sword for kuldotha, but with emperion, blightsteel, and staff of domination in hand, I opt to grab metalworker and hope he can't answer it. The worker gets to untap and drop emperion and staff, but he immediately topdecks another sword for emperion, and drops jitte. We go into a topdeck battle of me trying to find 3 artifacts in hand, and him trying to kill metalworker. We both flood out badly, while the staff keeps his jitte tapped down. I actually never get to go infinite, as I hit a welder first and he scoops to welder + the battlesphere I entombed way back on turn 2.
-emperion -2 greaves -3 lodestone +2 revoker +contagion +hellkite +2 ratchet bomb (there's no easy way to board for this...)

g2: Just one of those games against stoneblade. Force for chalice, bolt for metalworker, sword for wurmcoil. All while cantripping with young pyro in play. So it goes.

g3: Ballsy hand. Cityx2, chalice, metalworker, staff, godo, and elixir. Chalice makes it in safely. I draw a welder, and play the metalworker off the 2nd city. I draw a cavern of souls, and drop the uncounterable bandit warlord. Ordinarily I would have gotten a greaves for metalworker, and gone for the staff combo, but since I boarded them out, I get a batterskull instead. His turn 3 sfm for batterskull looks pretty sad in comparison. I end up just comboing out with staff, but it looked like godo equiped with batterskull would have taken the game anyhow. 5-0

Top 8: Burn
g1: I just randomly have a great hand against burn. Turn 2 wurmcoil engine.
-4 welder -titan +2 revoker +2 ratchet +1 trinisphere

g2: I have to choose between turn 2 kuldotha or turn 3 emperion. I opt for the emperion, and he drops an ensnaring bridge in its face, which starts a staring contest. The game comes down to him trying to triple burn the emperion in response to a lightning greaves. Through the magic of kuldotha + elixir, metalworker and staff of domination suddenly appear, and that's that. 6-0

Top 4: Tin fins
g1: I have greaves + metalworker + lodestone + emperion. Solid. I play mountain, and pass. He has underground sea, pass. I decide to wasteland it, because why not. He doesn't have a 2nd land, but doesn't seem to mind as lotus petal -> dark ritual -> entomb -> shallow grave -> grieselbrand -> draw 14 -> emrakul -> face. Cool.
-4 welder -titan +2 revoker +3 tormod +trinisphere +duplicant

g2: My 7 has no hate cards. My 6 has no lands. My 5 has a turn 2 trinisphere, but not much else. Ill take it. He has glit probe + cabal therapy for the trinisphere. He wins turn 3. Grumble. 6-1




Theoretically for 3 daretti at least 6 red sources are needed (7 would be better), so I should drop 2 wastelands, 1 vesuva and 3 caverns/2 cavern and 1 city, but it would be sad to lose uncounterability...

I love cavern too much to cut it. If you really wanted to run 12-post and daretti, I think a better option would be a mana rock like mox diamond or talisman of impulse or something like that. But once you run daretti, it makes welder that much better. Personally, I think you just need to pick a side: 12-post or a mana base like I ran. I play the deck more like a 1-card combo deck. That 1 card is kuldotha, and my entire deck revolves around getting it into play and tapped. You just don't need 12-posts to get to 5 mana. Sometimes you can hardcast titan or blightsteel or cheat them into play with welder/daretti/metalworker, but that isn't the goal. I think this is a subtle change in mindset that is hard for people who like to play 12post.


I am wondering, why aren't you using Tangle Wires?

Like I said above, I don't play this as a prison deck. I don't run trinispheres or crucible of worlds or smokestack or karn or any of that. Every card in the deck is designed to either play kuldotha, protect kuldotha, recur kuldotha, or be fetched by kuldotha. Tangle wire doesn't do that, is poor against young pyro, and needs a welder/daretti to really shine.


Is the opinion that Daretti x3 is the optimal number? I will probably shave a few welders since they are pretty much redundant cards.

I think 3 is the minimum if you intend to run it. I was so impressed by it, I will be trying 4 in the future. The thing is that daretti makes welder better, so it seems odd to cut welders for daretti. I think lodestone golem is the weakest card in the deck, and competes at 4cc, but it does shine in certain matchups...

[bruizar]

You confirm my findings. Daretti is insane and ive been playing no less than 4. Your deck is entirely different from mine though, but i can tell you Daretti plays a crucial role to filter redundant prison cards, gain card advantage, set up broken welds and ultimate. Literally every aspect of the card has performed great for me so far. I enjoyed reading your report. Also, skip pyroclasm. Use Whipflare to save your revokers and metalworkers.

[Airwave]

Here we go then, 5 rounds of swiss and then top 8. Incoming wall of text

match-report


I love cavern too much to cut it. If you really wanted to run 12-post and daretti, I think a better option would be a mana rock like mox diamond or talisman of impulse or something like that. But once you run daretti, it makes welder that much better. Personally, I think you just need to pick a side: 12-post or a mana base like I ran. I play the deck more like a 1-card combo deck. That 1 card is kuldotha, and my entire deck revolves around getting it into play and tapped. You just don't need 12-posts to get to 5 mana. Sometimes you can hardcast titan or blightsteel or cheat them into play with welder/daretti/metalworker, but that isn't the goal. I think this is a subtle change in mindset that is hard for people who like to play 12post.



Like I said above, I don't play this as a prison deck. I don't run trinispheres or crucible of worlds or smokestack or karn or any of that. Every card in the deck is designed to either play kuldotha, protect kuldotha, recur kuldotha, or be fetched by kuldotha. Tangle wire doesn't do that, is poor against young pyro, and needs a welder/daretti to really shine.



I think 3 is the minimum if you intend to run it. I was so impressed by it, I will be trying 4 in the future. The thing is that daretti makes welder better, so it seems odd to cut welders for daretti. I think lodestone golem is the weakest card in the deck, and competes at 4cc, but it does shine in certain matchups...

Thanks for your report! Nice reading and good deck-building. I'm going to try something like this I think, but will kick out the lodestones probably.

[(nameless one)]

I see what youre saying. Back when I played a more combo oriented Welder version, I ran Tangle Wire but not Chalice/Trinisphere on the main (they were on the side).

I like this Daretti version of Welder. The Combo Welder I ran on the OP was consistent but soft to hate. This version seems to be as consistent but more flexible. I think this is the way to go if Daretti's would be involved.

[deadlock]

If red MUD comes back besides Godo and Daretti, Bonfire of the Damned and Moltensteel Dragon could be an option. I like especially the first one, but I dont know if it is playable without SDT.

Edit: Just tested a red version with Bonfire and I like it quite a bit. Even if it is already in hand, as it can deal with TNN and all the pesky little dudes. I also like Godo to gain some life, as we dont have Glimmerpost in the red build. Whats the best second equipment besides Batterskull? I am torn between a second skull, SOFI or Jitte.

[LeoCop 90]

Bonfire doesn't deal with nemesis because protection prevents damage. To be fair nothing in red deals with nemesis.
It is a strong card though, but i think sudden demise would just be better.

[enzee]

Hey, I've been reading this thread and registered just to post here.

I'm gonna be playing in the seattle invitational in a couple weeks, but I don't normally play much legacy. Luckily, I have access to almost any card through friends, so I've been studying hard for the format.

So far, my choice is to play a MUD deck simply because I think most decks are very soft to an early chalice or trinisphere and I think I'll win a fair amount of games just off that interaction. Plus, something about dropping sundering titans on turn 3 really speaks to me. :D

That said, the list I saw that made me fall in love was the one that got 7th at edison http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76112

However, I'm a sucker for value tricks and my instinct says to put welder and/or daretti in there. I understand why that guy didn't, since he's trying hard to drop a chalice for 1 on turn 1, and then he can't cast welder anyways. Plus, once he has them under some mana denial like that, he can just cast a game ending threat right after, having so many ways to potentially hardcast wurmcoils/sundering titan/etc.. right away.

I can see the verdict is somewhat split on which version is better in the thread, but would you say the 12post version is a little more straight forward in how it operates? While I believe I'm a strong player in general, I'm also realistic considering my lack of legacy experience. I have a feeling I'll not have as good a read on my opponents every time. So, I want to be more proactive then reactive. Plus, the meta is so wide open that I'd rather be the one asking questions then answering them.

If it's relatively similar, I may lean towards playing 2-3 Daretti at least, and not welder. Or, is that hedging too much and making it weaker overall? Do you just have to either go 12post or daretti/welder, and not bother hybridizing them?

[deadlock]

Bonfire doesn't deal with nemesis because protection prevents damage. To be fair nothing in red deals with nemesis.
It is a strong card though, but i think sudden demise would just be better.

Oh my bad, thought it kills it, because of the damage to "all" of his creatures.


If it's relatively similar, I may lean towards playing 2-3 Daretti at least, and not welder. Or, is that hedging too much and making it weaker overall? Do you just have to either go 12post or daretti/welder, and not bother hybridizing them?

This is a crucial point. Monobrown is so strong, because it doesnt rely on Metalworker with 12 post to get out the big robots imo. But 12 post (better 11 post) + 8 sol lands leaves very little room. So it is feasible to ditch 11 post in a red version and adjust the deck accordingly. If we dont want to rely on graveyard recursion too heavily, the mana curve has to be reduced accordingly.

[kingtk3]

...REPORT...

I love cavern too much to cut it. If you really wanted to run 12-post and daretti, I think a better option would be a mana rock like mox diamond or talisman of impulse or something like that. But once you run daretti, it makes welder that much better. Personally, I think you just need to pick a side: 12-post or a mana base like I ran. I play the deck more like a 1-card combo deck. That 1 card is kuldotha, and my entire deck revolves around getting it into play and tapped. You just don't need 12-posts to get to 5 mana. Sometimes you can hardcast titan or blightsteel or cheat them into play with welder/daretti/metalworker, but that isn't the goal. I think this is a subtle change in mindset that is hard for people who like to play 12post.



Like I said above, I don't play this as a prison deck. I don't run trinispheres or crucible of worlds or smokestack or karn or any of that. Every card in the deck is designed to either play kuldotha, protect kuldotha, recur kuldotha, or be fetched by kuldotha. Tangle wire doesn't do that, is poor against young pyro, and needs a welder/daretti to really shine.
...


That's the same thing I'm coming to realize: on the mana base depends the choice of the spells, so if you go for the 12-post route you could aford to play high CC cards (you can do this even without posts, but you would rely too much on metalworker and monolith to cast your spells), while if you don't play posts you should lower your curve.

Since you have chosen the latter you can afford to play many colored spells (daretti, godo and welder)thanks to the high number of red sources.

My wish was to use the 12-post mana base substituting the non-post one mana producing lands with mountains in order to play only 3 Daretti. Maybe the drawbacks (no more uncounterability, no more wastes) don't mitigate the asvantages (Daretti).

Taking as example Santomassino's list (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15272&iddeck=113408), what changes would you do to the mana base (including the use of mox diamond but not of talisman of impulse because I think it's just too bad here) in order to play 3 daretti?

Regarding your list:
are 33 artifacts sufficient for metalworker activations or could you see swapping one for the fourth monolith?
since you weren't impressed with lodestone golem in your build, do you think dropping them for 3 trinisphere could be an upgrade? In your deck Trinisphere does what lodestone (the tax which kind of "protects" your creatures from counters and removals) do but much better, and sometimes you can lock opponent out of the game; it doesn't beat but neither dies from a bolt.

[bruizar]

This is the list I'm currently playing. It is not yet optimized but I find that it plays rather nicely.
[LANDS 20]
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills

[CORE 36]
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Karn Liberated
4 Punishing Fire
4 Tangle Wire
2 Serrated Arrows
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Contagion Engine
4 Trinisphere
4 Choke
2 Gruul Signet
3 Talisman of Impulse
[FLEX]
2 Sylvan Library
2 Batterskull
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Contagion Engine


The flex slots are still uncertain. These could be replaced for cards like Sundering Titan, extra Wurmcoil Engines or Possessed Portal, or any from the vast pool of red/green cards.

I'm currently playing with Serrated Arrows because I think it is really good in this deck. It often 1 for 3's or 1 for 2's an opponent, and it's downright impossible for an opponent to win through creatures when Contagion Engine sits next to it since the double proliferate will add new arrow counters on Serrated Arrows and add new -1/-1 counters to creatures. The only problem I still have in terms of creatures is cheated haymakers (reanimator/sneak/snt/turbo eldrazi). Although i have Karn Liberated hasted beats is problematic. Ensnaring Bridge from the sideboard could address those.

Tangle Wire and Choke work together nicely. I often lead with Tangle Wire, tapping four permanents (usually lands) only to resolve a Choke on the following turn. This ensures that only force of will can counter my Choke . Contrary to normal decks playing Tangle Wire, it becomes progressively stronger as the fade counters disappear. This is because the opponent will have less untapped permanents left to tap for tangle wire each consecutive turn with choke in play.

Punishing Fire and Serrated Arrows ensures that Tangle Wire stays relevant by getting rid of cheap permanents .

Contagion Engine with Tangle Wire is enough to win the game, since you will just ramp Tangle Wire to an arbitrarily large amount. You will just draw-go until you have Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burnwillows and burn out your opponent in your upkeep as well as activating Contagion Engine to increase Tangle Wire, by drawing all your mana before your Tangle Wire forces you to tap all your permanents.

Daretti, Scrap Savant is so good that I often find it difficult to choose between its +2 and -2 abilities. The card is super crazy and the fact that you can ramp him hard means he's not as fragile as some other walkers. Imagine how hard it would be to get rid of Jace if his +2 was the brainstorm ability instead of the scry ability.

- The deck is soft to burn decks, which is a problem. If anyone has any ideas to improve that matchup (Sun Droplet is nice, but I'm especially fearful of Price of Progress). Perhaps I have to find more space for Batterskull, Godo Bandit Warlord and Wurmcoil Engines. so that I also have a decent beat down plan and life gain at my disposal. I also have too many cards right now.

[honz]

Also, skip pyroclasm. Use Whipflare to save your revokers and metalworkers.

One of the matchups that I want pyroclasm for is death and taxes. One of the best cards death and taxes has against us is phyrexian revoker. So I would never run whipflare over pyroclasm for this reason.



Whats the best second equipment besides Batterskul (for godo)l? I am torn between a second skull, SOFI or Jitte.

I think its a mistake to run more than 1 godo (even 1 may be too many), as being red and not an artifact is a big deal. More batterskulls or wurmcoil engines are preferable. Equipment like jitte and sofi are bad in a deck like this, because the only creatures you have either don't want to tap down to attack (metalworker, welder, kuldotha), or don't need equipment because they are already giant and hard to kill (blighsteel, wurmcoil, titan).


what changes would you do to the mana base (including the use of mox diamond but not of talisman of impulse because I think it's just too bad here) in order to play 3 daretti?....are 33 artifacts sufficient for metalworker activations or could you see swapping one for the fourth monolith?
since you weren't impressed with lodestone golem in your build, do you think dropping them for 3 trinisphere could be an upgrade?

I honestly just wouldn't run red with cloudposts.

33 artifacts is what it is. Sometimes metalworker doesn't tap for much mana, sometimes it hardcasts a blighsteel. At any rate, worker is better than monolith and at the very least is a nice lightning rod. I hadn't considered cutting lodestone for trinisphere. I just fear the deck is threat-light as it is, but I might try it. I really just want a playable artifact that's less than 6 mana. Or a hexproof beatstick...


I'm a sucker for value tricks and my instinct says to put welder and/or daretti in there. I understand why that guy didn't, since he's trying hard to drop a chalice for 1 on turn 1, and then he can't cast welder anyways.

Would you say the 12post version is a little more straight forward in how it operates? While I believe I'm a strong player in general, I'm also realistic considering my lack of legacy experience.

I would point out that Santomassino certainly knew about welder and daretti, and decided to not play them. Also note that cavern of souls gets welder through chalice, and is a common play for me. The 12post version is more straight forward, and the welder lists more intricate. However both are far from complicated decks, running no instants or library manipulation or removal. You ramp and play big things, you'll be fine with whatever list you run.

[bruizar]

One of the matchups that I want pyroclasm for is death and taxes. One of the best cards death and taxes has against us is phyrexian revoker. So I would never run whipflare over pyroclasm for this reason.

If D&T you are the one fearing Revokers, then it indeed seems unwise to run Whipflare.



I think its a mistake to run more than 1 godo (even 1 may be too many), as being red and not an artifact is a big deal. More batterskulls or wurmcoil engines are preferable. Equipment like jitte and sofi are bad in a deck like this, because the only creatures you have either don't want to tap down to attack (metalworker, welder, kuldotha), or don't need equipment because they are already giant and hard to kill (blighsteel, wurmcoil, titan).

I'm currently running 2 Batterskulls and 1 Godo. Godo has been outstanding so far. Drawing into the second Godo isn't much of an issue, but having no targets to search for is.



I would point out that Santomassino certainly knew about welder and daretti, and decided to not play them. Also note that cavern of souls gets welder through chalice, and is a common play for me. The 12post version is more straight forward, and the welder lists more intricate. However both are far from complicated decks, running no instants or library manipulation or removal. You ramp and play big things, you'll be fine with whatever list you run.
My guess is that there was just not enough time to properly find the correct Daretti configuration prior to the tournament. From my testing, the card has been, pretty much the best card in the deck aside of Chalice of the Void for 1.

How can I put this.. When Daretti is online, which is super easy to do, it's almost a 4 mana Staff of Nin that can deal 2 to 4 damage instead of 1, and draws 1 to 2 cards instead of 1, that can also weld robots and give you a Lifeline emblem for all your artifacts.

I know the comparison can't really be made, but it's the best way I know how to express how crazy this walker is in conjunction with punishing fire and potentially with loam (didnt test that yet).

[enzee]

How can I put this.. When Daretti is online, which is super easy to do, it's almost a 4 mana Staff of Nin that can deal 2 to 4 damage instead of 1, and draws 1 to 2 cards instead of 1, that can also weld robots and give you a Lifeline emblem for all your artifacts.

I know the comparison can't really be made, but it's the best way I know how to express how crazy this walker is in conjunction with punishing fire and potentially with loam (didnt test that yet).

Well.. from the research I've done, and some of the playtesting I've managed to get in now.. they really are two different types of decks. I'm sure Daretti is ridiculous when the deck is setup to take advantage of it, but that requires removing the 11post landbase. His deck took advantage of the abundant amount of mana to hardcast wurmcoils and sundering titans right away, which takes a little bit longer to do without that manabase.

The daretti/welder style is more controlling, and able to grind out games. The version he ran was more of a pseudo combo deck (or more focused on pulling off combos, rather), dropping chalice/trinisphere to slow the game down a turn or two, so that his opponent gets crippled by a sundering titan (which he's more likely to actually draw rather then tutor, since there is 3 copies). Against decks running 2-3 colors, the sundering titan on turn 4 is often a one sided armageddon.

That said, it seems very all or nothing with his version. You can get flooded with mana producing cards and then have your one important spell get FoW'd and just lose. When you draw well, it's hard to beat it, and he likely ran pretty well in that tournament.

[bruizar]

Well.. from the research I've done, and some of the playtesting I've managed to get in now.. they really are two different types of decks. I'm sure Daretti is ridiculous when the deck is setup to take advantage of it, but that requires removing the 11post landbase. His deck took advantage of the abundant amount of mana to hardcast wurmcoils and sundering titans right away, which takes a little bit longer to do without that manabase.

The daretti/welder style is more controlling, and able to grind out games. The version he ran was more of a pseudo combo deck (or more focused on pulling off combos, rather), dropping chalice/trinisphere to slow the game down a turn or two, so that his opponent gets crippled by a sundering titan (which he's more likely to actually draw rather then tutor, since there is 3 copies). Against decks running 2-3 colors, the sundering titan on turn 4 is often a one sided armageddon.

That said, it seems very all or nothing with his version. You can get flooded with mana producing cards and then have your one important spell get FoW'd and just lose. When you draw well, it's hard to beat it, and he likely ran pretty well in that tournament.

Your analysis is spot on. The two decks do fundamentally different things. I think that EVEN IF you would add Daretti to the 11 post base (assuming you could get the manabase to work), it would still serve a different role, namely that it ensures you can recur artifacts through a wall of counterspells and spot removal. Here it is important to note that Daretti itself can be countered, whereas cavern of souls with goblin welder cannot and goblin welder can be hit be spot removal whereas daretti cannot (abrupt decay, swords to plowshares and lightning bolt don't kill it).

For the 11-post manabase, I'd keep it colorless and just hold out for the new planeswalker Ugin which should be spoiled in a few months from now. I suspect that if there is going to be a nice bomb that the colorless list can take advantage of, it's going to be that guy. I could see a turbo-walker list in the future (Karn Liberated and Ugin), but this is getting ahead way too much :-). From my experience, powerful characters and important storyline events usually don't disappoint. Karn's come back was extremely important in New Phyrexia and it would have lead to great disappointment if Karn was an underpowered card. Likewise, Ugin from worldwake contained the Eldrazi. That means he's powerful enough to deal with the Eldrazi and those are currently the most powerful creatures in the game. I'm expecting one hell of a colorless haymaker here :)

[Mr. Froggy]

I finished 2nd at my local Legacy with 12Post MUD. Great fun was had. :)

[TheYoungster]

Your analysis is spot on. The two decks do fundamentally different things. I think that EVEN IF you would add Daretti to the 11 post base (assuming you could get the manabase to work), it would still serve a different role, namely that it ensures you can recur artifacts through a wall of counterspells and spot removal. Here it is important to note that Daretti itself can be countered, whereas cavern of souls with goblin welder cannot and goblin welder can be hit be spot removal whereas daretti cannot (abrupt decay, swords to plowshares and lightning bolt don't kill it).

For the 11-post manabase, I'd keep it colorless and just hold out for the new planeswalker Ugin which should be spoiled in a few months from now. I suspect that if there is going to be a nice bomb that the colorless list can take advantage of, it's going to be that guy. I could see a turbo-walker list in the future (Karn Liberated and Ugin), but this is getting ahead way too much :-). From my experience, powerful characters and important storyline events usually don't disappoint. Karn's come back was extremely important in New Phyrexia and it would have lead to great disappointment if Karn was an underpowered card. Likewise, Ugin from worldwake contained the Eldrazi. That means he's powerful enough to deal with the Eldrazi and those are currently the most powerful creatures in the game. I'm expecting one hell of a colorless haymaker here :)

I don't know if it being powerful is really the concern though, I mean honestly we aren't really lacking for powerful colorless cards. The games I lose are almost never due to an opponent casting more powerful cards but usually because of mana screw or drawing nothing. I don't think another powerful colorless planeswalker will help much unless it can be reasonably cast without a metalworker or an active locus. I would probably prefer it cost 4 mana and give us more action, be it drawing cards, recurring artifacts or tutoring, then have some insane effect at 6.7 or 8 mana. Maybe a -X transmute artifact and a +X that protects itself or can be offensive a like turning target artifact into a 3/3 until your next turn or make it a mishra's factory, something like that, but I really don't want more cards to clunk up the top of the curve that will do nothing to help the key problems with the deck.

[bruizar]

I don't know if it being powerful is really the concern though, I mean honestly we aren't really lacking for powerful colorless cards. The games I lose are almost never due to an opponent casting more powerful cards but usually because of mana screw or drawing nothing. I don't think another powerful colorless planeswalker will help much unless it can be reasonably cast without a metalworker or an active locus. I would probably prefer it cost 4 mana and give us more action, be it drawing cards, recurring artifacts or tutoring, then have some insane effect at 6.7 or 8 mana. Maybe a -X transmute artifact and a +X that protects itself or can be offensive a like turning target artifact into a 3/3 until your next turn or make it a mishra's factory, something like that, but I really don't want more cards to clunk up the top of the curve that will do nothing to help the key problems with the deck.

Realistically speaking I think that we can only expect Ugin to be top curve so we'll have to make due with that.

The problem of MUD has always been variance and losing to itself, and this is in large part due to ill distribution of converted mana-costs across cards. However, I think the 11 post base best handles top heavy by fact that locus lands scale up as the game progresses.

Ever since I started brewing with red-MUD, my objective was to lower the average converted mana cost, and at the time beat Swords to Plowshares and Jace, the Mindsculptor. This is why I opted for Godo and Batterskull over Wurmcoil Engine and Moltensteel Dragon. I think that uniting 11-post with red MUD won't solve the variance issues. Rather, it would be 11 post with a resilient walker attached to it and extra sideboard options.

[kingtk3]

...
I think that uniting 11-post with red MUD won't solve the variance issues. Rather, it would be 11 post with a resilient walker attached to it and extra sideboard options.

But wouldn't the addition of Daretti, which actually draws cards, help with the variance issues (provided that the curve would be lowered even a bit)?

That's basically how I would like to use daretti in MUD, to support the base strategy and lower the variance of the deck. If only I had some spare time from work I would test a list but I can't right now :(

[TheYoungster]

Realistically speaking I think that we can only expect Ugin to be top curve so we'll have to make due with that.

The problem of MUD has always been variance and losing to itself, and this is in large part due to ill distribution of converted mana-costs across cards. However, I think the 11 post base best handles top heavy by fact that locus lands scale up as the game progresses.

Ever since I started brewing with red-MUD, my objective was to lower the average converted mana cost, and at the time beat Swords to Plowshares and Jace, the Mindsculptor. This is why I opted for Godo and Batterskull over Wurmcoil Engine and Moltensteel Dragon. I think that uniting 11-post with red MUD won't solve the variance issues. Rather, it would be 11 post with a resilient walker attached to it and extra sideboard options.

Well the variance is the reason why I'm not excited about Ugin because everybody who is informed knows it will cost quite a bit which means it won't solve any issues the deck has. 12/11 post mana base helps but not against wastelands and you always run the risk of just running out of threats which is what makes the miracles match up tough. The fact the Daretti makes it so you can draw into more action and adds a resiliency to countermagic/some removal is what is making me consider switching to the red version.

[bruizar]

Daretti filters and digs for threats which does solve problems for the deck. However, I think you're actually increasing your curve if you take Daretti over Goblin Welder. That shouldn't be much of a problem in this deck since you're fixing primarily your top heavy (6 / 7 / 8 CC) cards by trading them for something else. Also important is to view Daretti as a mana source. Welding in a Sundering Titan is 8 less mana you have to worry about. You can't view Goblin Welder like a virtual mana source because Goblin welder has no way to get the cards in the graveyard.

He truly shines in conjunction with Punishing Fires but I think he's good enough to play without punishing fire. Daretti is a faithless looting and a goblin welder in one card so he works double time which is why I'm pretty sure you're going to love the card if you can resolve it.

[potatodavid]

I finished 2nd at my local Legacy with 12Post MUD. Great fun was had. :)

Care to report?

[TheYoungster]

Daretti filters and digs for threats which does solve problems for the deck. However, I think you're actually increasing your curve if you take Daretti over Goblin Welder. That shouldn't be much of a problem in this deck since you're fixing primarily your top heavy (6 / 7 / 8 CC) cards by trading them for something else. Also important is to view Daretti as a mana source. Welding in a Sundering Titan is 8 less mana you have to worry about. You can't view Goblin Welder like a virtual mana source because Goblin welder has no way to get the cards in the graveyard.

He truly shines in conjunction with Punishing Fires but I think he's good enough to play without punishing fire. Daretti is a faithless looting and a goblin welder in one card so he works double time which is why I'm pretty sure you're going to love the card if you can resolve it.

I'm definitely going to test it, but unfortunately I just haven't had the chance between a busy schedule, no legacy scene unless I want to drive an hour to Roanoke (which just isn't feasible right now) and my computer being repaired so I can't even jam games on cockatrice. I don't know if I really want to play punishing fire, mainly because I don't want to buy groves right now and I can't borrow any anymore so I'm just going to stick with a mono red version with cards I have or can reasonable get, but if it proves too good not to use then ill probably get the fire package.

[potatodavid]

Are there any MUD players on Twitch?

[maCHOOga]

Played MUD for the first time in probably 6 months with Daretti scrap servant at my weekly LGS event. The week before I played against combo after combo deck and MUD has the inherent ability to not let them play much magic. Of course this particular week I play against U/R delver in rounds 1 and 2 followed by death and taxes in round 3. I didn't fare too well, as I feel like they can both be very bad matchups.

There were two games against UR delver where Daretti shined. One involved casting a wurmcoil into a force of will, following up my turn with Daretti into a minus for the wurmcoil. Equip boots and swinging. Another game involved plusing Daretti to discard Sundering Titan to weld it back in the following turn.

Overall the deck seems fairly consistent, it even muliganed decently well.

[potatodavid]

Played MUD for the first time in probably 6 months with Daretti scrap servant at my weekly LGS event. The week before I played against combo after combo deck and MUD has the inherent ability to not let them play much magic. Of course this particular week I play against U/R delver in rounds 1 and 2 followed by death and taxes in round 3. I didn't fare too well, as I feel like they can both be very bad matchups.

There were two games against UR delver where Daretti shined. One involved casting a wurmcoil into a force of will, following up my turn with Daretti into a minus for the wurmcoil. Equip boots and swinging. Another game involved plusing Daretti to discard Sundering Titan to weld it back in the following turn.

Overall the deck seems fairly consistent, it even muliganed decently well.

U/R seems like an easier match for MUD. Were your chalices FOW'd/Dazed all day?

[Mr. Froggy]

Care to report?

Crap sorry didn't see you asked me for a report. I didn't take any notes so no report... my bad..

[Sockosensei]

I am a documented Welder addict but am seated aboard the MUD-Post boat in the current waters.

A few pages back I posted a manabase which was met with mild criticism for running fewer than 8 Sol Lands in favor of more Caverns and Wastelands. My reasoning was that I want as many threats to resolve as possible since I'm not as good at refueling as the Brainstorm-Ponder decks. City of Traitors is awful with CIPT lands. Wasteland is great for buying just one extra turn with Trinisphere or to guard against Dark Depths. Having run the same manabase for 30 matches now and winning the great majority, I will repost it with confidence.

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Trinisphere
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine of Ish Sah

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
3 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

*1 Flex spot


Sideboard
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Powder Keg
1 Anti-burn creature (Wurmcoil / Emperion)
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Others

The maindeck flex spot has been various cards including Karn Liberated, Platinum Angel, Myr Battlesphere, Platinum Emperion, Lightning Greaves, and most recently the fourth Vesuva.

Sundering Titan -- Having three copies has been perfect since I want to draw into it and not just tutor through Forgemaster. This card obliterates decks and is the finisher in the majority of my wins, many in which it works alongside Trinisphere.

Blightsteel Colossus -- I've hard-cast it as often as I've tutored for it. Neither of those have happened particularly often. Its best attribute has been the threat of it. I could probably get that value anyway by running it in the sideboard for when I really need it.

I'm still unsure about the Platinum Angel. I've had it in the deck for 6 matches and can't recall casting it or tutoring for it even once.

It's rare to get Cloudposts going and not win. Land-heavy hands are the way to go.

Any suggestions for the final 4 sideboard slots?

[honz]

Overall the deck seems fairly consistent, it even muliganed decently well.

I think you're the first person to ever say that.


A few pages back I posted a manabase which was met with mild criticism for running fewer than 8 Sol Lands in favor of more Caverns and Wastelands.....

Any suggestions for the final 4 sideboard slots?

Honestly, you are running a very standard post list. Most people I have seen run 11-posts, 3 cities, 3 caverns, but the difference of 1 card is hardly game changing. The main reason people like to run the full 8 sol lands is to power out turn 1 chalice at 1, turn 1 monolith -> trinisphere, or turn 2 trinisphere. These plays simply are not possible with cloudposts. It is just a trade off between consistency and explosiveness.

I have said this before, but I strongly believe a 1/2 split of batterskull/wurmcoil is better than 3 wurmcoils. Batterskull is already bigger than every creature in the format except other batterskulls and goyfs, plus you can easily equip/recast it. It fills the same role, while being better in some situations. Also platinum emperion is a monster in the maindeck, specifically game 1 where many decks just don't have an answer for it.

I always liked 1 contagion engine in my board against elves/death and taxes/young pyro. I also like 1 duplicant for show and tell/reanimator. I think trading post is decent against heavy control decks (miracles/stoneblade). Torpor orb isn't terrible either. Sun droplet against burn. Don't be afraid to run pithing needle if you expect alot of loam decks (for waste or dark depths). Platinum angel is more of a SB card in my mind, only coming in against infect. Witchbane orb against burn/discard/storm. I haven't seen it in a while but silent arbiter has potential, as does caltrops.

[Sockosensei]

Honestly, you are running a very standard post list. Most people I have seen run 11-posts, 3 cities, 3 caverns, but the difference of 1 card is hardly game changing. The main reason people like to run the full 8 sol lands is to power out turn 1 chalice at 1, turn 1 monolith -> trinisphere, or turn 2 trinisphere. These plays simply are not possible with cloudposts. It is just a trade off between consistency and explosiveness.

Indeed, it's very much a standard post list, nothing revolutionary.
I just wanted to mention it again now that I've done more testing since I'm getting far better and more consistent results than I ever managed with Welder. I've definitely traded a touch of explosiveness for consistency. It has worked out positively in non-reanimator, non-T1 combo matchups, which represent the majority of my online testing and local meta. Cavern of Souls has been consistently excellent as many matchups become "resolve a Sundering Titan, Wurmcoil, or Forgemaster and win". Sandbag the Cavern for maximum value and surprise effect.

When I first tried the Post builds months ago, it was with all 12 posts, 8 Sol lands, and 4 Wastelands. I had so many awkward hands with City+CIPT lands that it was brutal. Add in a few opposing Wastelands or a key creature getting countered, and I couldn't put together consistent success. It's much different now (and the meta shift has contributed there as well).



I have said this before, but I strongly believe a 1/2 split of batterskull/wurmcoil is better than 3 wurmcoils. Batterskull is already bigger than every creature in the format except other batterskulls and goyfs, plus you can easily equip/recast it. It fills the same role, while being better in some situations. Also platinum emperion is a monster in the maindeck, specifically game 1 where many decks just don't have an answer for it.

I always liked 1 contagion engine in my board against elves/death and taxes/young pyro. I also like 1 duplicant for show and tell/reanimator. I think trading post is decent against heavy control decks (miracles/stoneblade). Torpor orb isn't terrible either. Sun droplet against burn. Don't be afraid to run pithing needle if you expect alot of loam decks (for waste or dark depths). Platinum angel is more of a SB card in my mind, only coming in against infect. Witchbane orb against burn/discard/storm. I haven't seen it in a while but silent arbiter has potential, as does caltrops.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'd completely overlooked Sun Droplet and Contagion Engine.
I have run Batterskull at points in the flex slot and just forgot to mention it. I liked it in addition to Wurmcoil, not as a replacement.
Platinum Emperion goes into the maindeck on MTGO for the common Burn matchup.


I haven't given up on Welder, especially with Daretti now as a compliment. I'm just riding too high on Post and the bottom refuses to drop out.

[potatodavid]

Crap sorry didn't see you asked me for a report. I didn't take any notes so no report... my bad..

You are just the worst ;)

[Mr. Froggy]

You are just the worst ;) I'll try to take notes this weekend ;) and yes I'm gonna rock 12Post MUD again :)

I find the raw power of the deck completely nuts, lol

[potatodavid]

I'll try to take notes this weekend ;) and yes I'm gonna rock 12Post MUD again

Any changes to the list?

[Mr. Froggy]

Any changes to the list? Nope because the list I run does everything I want it to.

I'll post it later tonight once I'm on my Mac.

EDIT:

Artifact (18)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
3x Lightning Greaves
1x Spine of Ish Sah
2x Staff of Nin
4x Trinisphere
Land (24)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
4x Vesuva
4x Cavern of Souls
Creature (18)
1x Blightsteel Colossus
3x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
3x Sundering Titan
3x Wurmcoil Engine

That's where I'm at with the list for now, I quite like how it plays out.

The reasoning behind the 4 Caverns is I sold off my Wastelands a while back since I needed money and I didn't want to buy them again. They haven't been missed much yet.

[GhostEmpire]

Legacy 1K: There was about 35 or so people at this event.
_____________________________________________________
ROUND 1: Pox
G1: An early Thoughseize snags a Trinisphere form my hand, which I coudl've powered out T1 via Ancient Tomb + Grim Monolith. Got hit by a Wasteland and a Pox, but he's just durdling around. Eventually Chalice of the Void at 1 and 2 shut him out of the game.
G2: He's on the play, T1 Duress me, discards Chalice of the Void. Topdeck another Chalice of the Void, and cast it off of the tomb, and he gave out disgruntled look/sound. I then asked if his hand was all one drops, and he silently nodded. He runs them all into Chalice of the Void, and then delves out a Tombstalker, the following turn I slam Blightsteel Colossus, and that's enough to take the cake.
1-0
_____________________________________________________
ROUND 2: Knight of the Reliquary Abzan deck w/ maindecked Chokes/Trinispheres
G1: Wasteland is serious business. Dead.
G2: Robot + Staff of Domination going infinite turn 4/5 seems legit.
G3: T1 Ancient Tomb into Lightning Greaves. T2 play land into Metalworker + Staff seem legit.
2-0
_____________________________________________________
ROUND 3: Burn
G1: I land Wurmcoils this game, and he's forced to double Fireblast it. Wasteland on Glimmer Post saves me from Price of Progress.
G2: Opponent powers through Trinisphere and burns me me to death.
G3: I had a greedy keep of City of Traitors, expensive stuff, and Chalice. I land a turn 1 Chalice, but he Smashes it the following turn. RIP deck.
2-1
_____________________________________________________
ROUND 4: Jeskai Stoneblade
G1/G2: Chalice of the Void and Cavern of Souls are serious business. I win via Blightsteel.
At some point in game 2 my opponent attempts to Force of Will an uncounterable Kuldotha Forgemaster, I stare blankly at him, then proceed to equip it with Lightning Greaves.
3-1
_____________________________________________________
ROUND 5: Goblins
G1: Wasteland is serious business. Dead.
G2: Hand is lumped with expensive cards on a mulligan to 5, and my lands do too much damage to me.
3-2
_____________________________________________________
My opponents that beat me in the previous rounds are in 2nd and 3rd after standings, so my breakers are looking pretty good.
Round 6 was it, if I lost I'd be done.
_____________________________________________________
ROUND 6: Punishing Jund
G1: Deathrite into T2 Lily, T3 & T4 Bloodbraid are serious business.
G2: Chalice of the Void is serious business.
G3: Thoughtseizes my Metalworker, he slams Homiegoyf turn 2, I draw another Metalworker, and slam it. He plays another Homiegoyf. On my turn I tap the Worker, and unleash 2 Wurmcoil Engines. The turn after that I unleash a Blightsteel.
4-2
_____________________________________________________
TOP 8: Burn (Round 3 opponent)
G1: Being on the draw against this deck was no fun, and was definitely an uphill battle, Spine of Ish Sah on Goblin Guide saved the day.
G2: Early Goblin Guide beats are extremely scary, but Glimmerposts and friends definitely helped saved the day. I also managed to land a Platinum Angel on the table, which my opponent was unable to Fireblast / answer via Smash to Smithereens. This game was definitely the most difficult game of the day. Eventually the game ends with being me at -26 from a plethora shenanigans via multiple Ancient Tombs, and Blightsteel Colossus eventually takes the cake (one Goblin Guide spared his life to save his master the first time around).
_____________________________________________________
TOP 4: Jeskai Stoneblade
There's a top 4 prize split, and I'm declared the winner.
If this match-up had actually played out, I'd feel very comfortable about it.
_____________________________________________________
DECKLIST:
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus
[20]

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine of Ish Sah
[16]

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Vesuva
2 Wasteland
[24]

SIDEBOARD:
1 Duplicant
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Coercive Portal
1 Witchbane Orb
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Mindbreak Trap
[15]
_____________________________________________________
NOTES:
This deck is extremely similar to the one at GP New Jersey. I was considering taking out 1 Wasteland for another Cavern of Souls.

I'm considering cutting Staff of Nin, it hasn't done much in 12+ matches other than ping my opponent to death ONE game.
A Coercive Portal in the main might be better, nevertheless, that leaves me with a free slot I can tinker around with (no pun intended) .

[kohulk]

Hi, could you plz write your sb plan for each of your games?

[Mr. Froggy]

Finished 3rd at my LGS, went 2-2 but had amazing tie-breakers.

Round 1: BUG NicFit
2-0

Round 2: Manaless Dredge (my friend went 4-0 with the list I lent him.)
1-2

Round 3: Naya Zoo
1-2

Round 4: UWr Stoneblade
2-1

Good enough for 3rd!

I'm gonna cut the Staff of Nins, I sided them out every single game in the past month I've used them.

Maybe add a Forgemaster and an extra Karn.

[dcosiem]

Finished 3rd at my LGS, went 2-2 but had amazing tie-breakers.

Round 1: BUG NicFit
2-0

Round 2: Manaless Dredge (my friend went 4-0 with the list I lent him.)
1-2

Round 3: Naya Zoo
1-2

Round 4: UWr Stoneblade
2-1

Good enough for 3rd!

I'm gonna cut the Staff of Nins, I sided them out every single game in the past month I've used them.

Maybe add a Forgemaster and an extra Karn.

Yea, I don't like staff of Nin. It doesn't do enough. There are just better spells at 6.

[GhostEmpire]

Yea, I don't like staff of Nin. It doesn't do enough. There are just better spells at 6.
Yeah, it was one of the most useless cards for me the past TWO tournaments I went into.

Out of 11+ rounds, I've only used it to actually win a game via pinging my opponent in the face.

[Sockosensei]

I'm gonna cut the Staff of Nins, I sided them out every single game in the past month I've used them.

Maybe add a Forgemaster and an extra Karn.I cut Staff of Nin a few days ago and haven't missed it at all. While I like the idea of a win condition that doesn't use the red zone, in the span of 45 matches it has once or twice killed a Dark Confidant and drawn extra cards, but in each situation I would have been just as if not more happy with the 4th Wurmcoil. It's rare to lose a game after resolving a Wurmcoil.

I've followed your example with the Lightning Greaves and it has sometimes been a difference maker in terms of what it does and what it threatens to do. The additional early plays are a great bonus and help to stabilize my life total in matchups where I need a Wurmcoil swing as quickly as possible.

In the matches since switching from Welder back to Post, I've gone 35-10. These include some registered tournament matches, local test matches, and many online test matches. Losses have been to Reanimator, Manaless Dredge, Jund, Rack Pox, RUG Delver, Painter, UB Tezzeret, Nic Fit (rapid fire Cabal Therapies), and two others that I can't recall at this moment. I continue to be pleasantly surprised by the deck's consistency, for MUD anyway ;-D


Creature (20)
4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
1x Steel Hellkite
3x Wurmcoil Engine
3x Sundering Titan
1x Blightsteel Colossus

Artifact (16)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
3x Lightning Greaves
1x Staff of Domination
4x Trinisphere

Land (24)
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
*3-4x Vesuva
*2-3x Wasteland


Sideboard (15)
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Duplicant
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 other

[GhostEmpire]

I cut Staff of Nin a few days ago and haven't missed it at all. While I like the idea of a win condition that doesn't use the red zone, in the span of 45 matches it has once or twice killed a Dark Confidant and drawn extra cards, but in each situation I would have been just as if not more happy with the 4th Wurmcoil. It's rare to lose a game after resolving a Wurmcoil.

I've followed your example with the Lightning Greaves and it has sometimes been a difference maker in terms of what it does and what it threatens to do. The additional early plays are a great bonus and help to stabilize my life total in matchups where I need a Wurmcoil swing as quickly as possible.

In the matches since switching from Welder back to Post, I've gone 35-10. These include some registered tournament matches, local test matches, and many online test matches. Losses have been to Reanimator, Manaless Dredge, Jund, Rack Pox, RUG Delver, Painter, UB Tezzeret, Nic Fit (rapid fire Cabal Therapies), and two others that I can't recall at this moment. I continue to be pleasantly surprised by the deck's consistency, for MUD anyway ;-D


Creature (20)
4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
1x Steel Hellkite
3x Wurmcoil Engine
3x Sundering Titan
1x Blightsteel Colossus

Artifact (16)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
3x Lightning Greaves
1x Staff of Domination
4x Trinisphere

Land (24)
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Ancient Tomb
2x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
*3-4x Vesuva
*2-3x Wasteland


Sideboard (15)
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Duplicant
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 other
I'm only playing with one Greaves at the moment, but I want to try another 1-2 additional copies.

[Mr. Froggy]

I honestly love my 3 copies of Greaves, I find they do so much for the deck.

Also its true, I could add a 4th Wurmcoil since they win games by themselves.

[hofzge]

I honestly love my 3 copies of Greaves, I find they do so much for the deck.

Also its true, I could add a 4th Wurmcoil since they win games by themselves.

This is true and I also dislike the Staff of Nin (compare it to a Wurmcoil Engine for how much you can get for 6 mana), but I also doubt the usefulness of the Blightsteel Colossus: It is great when winning (i.e. Forgemastering or hardcasting him).
IMHO another threat that is castable like Myr Battlesphere is better. An early Battlesphere (tinkered or hardcast) is nearly as devastating as the Colossus, but it can realistically be hardcast off lands and not just off Metalworker.

This is what I currently play:

4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
1x Myr Battlesphere
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Sundering Titan
4x Wurmcoil Engine

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
2x Lightning Greaves
1x Staff of Domination
4x Trinisphere
2x Karn Liberated

4x Ancient Tomb
3x Cavern of Souls
3x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
2x Vesuva
4x Wasteland

Sideboard

1x All Is Dust
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Ratchet Bomb
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Steel Hellkite
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Trading Post

[dcosiem]

I need a word on Myr BattleSphere. Is he good enough to make the 75?

[hofzge]

Well it attacks for 12 and gives you fodder to Forgemaster again next turn.

It's tried and true in Vintage and with the advent of Young Pyromancer also important: It can block 5 creatures.

[GhostEmpire]

I honestly love my 3 copies of Greaves, I find they do so much for the deck.

Also its true, I could add a 4th Wurmcoil since they win games by themselves.
Wurmcoil really helped out in the tournament, I love my 4th one.

How do you guys feel about Platinum Angel vs. Emperion? Losing outside of damage hasn't been relevant for me, and Angel is way harder to kill, which could have been a huge liability.
In the Top 8 match I won, I had an Angel out and my opponent needed a a Fireblast (outside of Smash to Smithereens) to win the game. The bigger body on Emperion provides a quicker clock and can actually eat things.

[dcosiem]

@hofzge Yea, the whenever i get Myr on the field, he has been super useful. My problem building with 12-post mud is the consistency.

@GhostEmpire I rather play Emperion in the main and keep Angel in the side just because of the reasons you stated. Also, in my meta or wherever, I'm just not really seeing much High tide combo decks or Painter servant decks that she's really good in.

Side Note: I'm testing 4 Lightning Greeves in my deck. I really think that I want more greeves to protect my effective creatures from being removed more often then not. Anyone got a take on this?

[GhostEmpire]

@hofzge Yea, the whenever i get Myr on the field, he has been super useful. My problem building with 12-post mud is the consistency.

@GhostEmpire I rather play Emperion in the main and keep Angel in the side just because of the reasons you stated. Also, in my meta or wherever, I'm just not really seeing much High tide combo decks or Painter servant decks that she's really good in.

Side Note: I'm testing 4 Lightning Greeves in my deck. I really think that I want more greeves to protect my effective creatures from being removed more often then not. Anyone got a take on this?
Yeah, nearly all the combo decks played at my shop are Storm, so it should be sufficient enough.

I want to try the 2nd Greaves that's for sure, how are you liking 4?

[Mr. Froggy]

I find 3 an amazing number, let us know how 4 goes.

[GhostEmpire]

I find 3 an amazing number, let us know how 4 goes.
I have room for 2, but not quite 3 yet, haha.

What would you recommend cutting from this:

DECKLIST:
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus
[20]

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah
[16]

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Vesuva
2 Wasteland
[24]

[Mr. Froggy]

I do run 3 Kuldotha and 3 Wurmcoils, which gave me room.. :/

[Fry]

I'm currently not at home until Saturday, but I used to play 3 Greaves and have since cut one of them for a singleton Thousand-Year Elixer. It's great that you get to use your Forgemaster, Metalworker, or Welder without passing priority. It's proven to be excellent, and I have been tempted to make it the 3rd Greaves on rare occasions, but it's just too good.

[dcosiem]

My results has been thus far. I get Lightning Greaves in more open and playable hands more often than I use to. I use to play 1 similar to the list that played in the GP New Jersey.

4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Staff of Domination
4 Lightning Greaves
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Wurmcoil Engine

SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Silent Arbiter
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Witchbane Orb
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 All Is Dust
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Steel Hellkite
SB: 1 Platinum Angel
SB: 1 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah

[GhostEmpire]

My results has been thus far. I get Lightning Greaves in more open and playable hands more often than I use to. I use to play 1 similar to the list that played in the GP New Jersey.

4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Staff of Domination
4 Lightning Greaves
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Wurmcoil Engine

SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Silent Arbiter
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Witchbane Orb
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 All Is Dust
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Steel Hellkite
SB: 1 Platinum Angel
SB: 1 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
I like the abscence of Wasteland in your list, it really hasn't done much for me, and I've always wanted the 4th Cavern of Souls, the 4th Vesuva also seems really nice in the deck.

What do you use Winter Orb against?

[Sockosensei]

I'm currently not at home until Saturday, but I used to play 3 Greaves and have since cut one of them for a singleton Thousand-Year Elixer. It's great that you get to use your Forgemaster, Metalworker, or Welder without passing priority. It's proven to be excellent, and I have been tempted to make it the 3rd Greaves on rare occasions, but it's just too good.

Thousand-Year Elixir is excellent in a Welder build with 12+ creatures with activated abilities. In Post lists without Welder it's just less consistently powerful than Greaves.

[GhostEmpire]

I do run 3 Kuldotha and 3 Wurmcoils, which gave me room.. :/
I can see that, there wasn't a lot of UR Delver in my meta the last 2 times I played, and I think 3 Forgemasters is enough.

[nerv2004]

UGIN HAS DROPPED!

http://media.wizards.com/2014/ujehvsbfrf153/en_w54r4t295i.png

+2: Lightning Bolt
-X: Better Pernicious Deed
-10: ... Draw 7 cards... Gain 7 life... And drop 7 permanent
CMC: 8.

Can we use this????? Maybe in 12 post mud

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Wow, now I wanna play MUD...again...Karn sucks, and now even more so.

[Bobmans]

Lol, what a monster. If this doesn't put you back in a solid board position once it resolves then i am crazy. Nice one.

[GhostEmpire]

UGIN HAS DROPPED!

http://media.wizards.com/2014/ujehvsbfrf153/en_w54r4t295i.png

+2: Lightning Bolt
-X: Better Pernicious Deed
-10: ... Draw 7 cards... Gain 7 life... And drop 7 permanent
CMC: 8.

Can we use this????? Maybe in 12 post mud
If Karn and All is Dust are remotely playable in this deck, then Ugin should be as well.

[bruizar]

Xmas time!!!! I really love all the abilities. That -x is so sweet

[nestle_19]

How much will this guy be is the question? Foil and non foil version?

[Bobmans]

How much will this guy be is the question? Foil and non foil version?
Probaply around 10ish why?

[nestle_19]

Probaply around 10ish why?

Do you think he'll only cost ten dollars?

[Bobmans]

Do you think he'll only cost ten dollars?
Euro's, but i do not see a reason for this card to skyrocket. Maybe before release, but it will drop after (just like Sarkhan dragonspeaker) and maybe if it sticks it rises again slowly after it rotates out of standard.

The way i see it this card is good, but only MUD and Turbo Eldrazi can actually support it and in Modern Urzatron can. Offcourse EDH will see it. But it is still soo limited. Karn Liberated also started out costing around 10-15.

[bruizar]

Euro's, but i do not see a reason for this card to skyrocket. Maybe before release, but it will drop after (just like Sarkhan dragonspeaker) and maybe if it sticks it rises again slowly after it rotates out of standard.

The way i see it this card is good, but only MUD and Turbo Eldrazi can actually support it and in Modern Urzatron can. Offcourse EDH will see it. But it is still soo limited. Karn Liberated also started out costing around 10-15.

The card will be expensive. Perhaps not for legacy reasons, perhaps not even for modern reasons, but I expect the card to be 30 euros non foil for quiet some time and foil for double that amount if not even more.

[Mr. Froggy]

If Karn and All is Dust are remotely playable in this deck, then Ugin should be as well.

This is exactly what I thought when I saw Ugin's abilities.

[GhostEmpire]

This is exactly what I thought when I saw Ugin's abilities.
I'm thinking at 2 might be an appropriate amount?

[Mr. Froggy]

I'm thinking at 2 might be an appropriate amount?

Yeah I thought of that as well, he seems really strong.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

What slots are you trying out?

[Mr. Froggy]

I'm thinking of cutting my one-of Karn MD and maybe a Sundering Titan to try out Ugin.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I like dropping Karn. I've always believed him to be worse than other options, including myr battlesphere. If you play Spine of Ish Sah, there is argument there to swap in Ugin. He's going to be very good. A bolt a turn keeps Delver at bay. How many Titans do you run?

[GhostEmpire]

I like dropping Karn. I've always believed him to be worse than other options, including myr battlesphere. If you play Spine of Ish Sah, there is argument there to swap in Ugin. He's going to be very good. A bolt a turn keeps Delver at bay. How many Titans do you run?
I like the fact that you can just -X Ugin for 2 or 3 and call it a day.

[Bobmans]

I'd be happiliy running 3 copy's in a bit more stax like version of the deck aiming for lategame, keep 3/4 Forgemaster, but drop Gim Monolith's entirely. Keeping 1 or 2 Karn at the side or maybe a split between main and side.

[Mr. Froggy]

I like dropping Karn. I've always believed him to be worse than other options, including myr battlesphere. If you play Spine of Ish Sah, there is argument there to swap in Ugin. He's going to be very good. A bolt a turn keeps Delver at bay. How many Titans do you run?

I run 3 Titans currently, and have found them amazing, but I need to find room for Ugin.

[bruizar]

Ugin may convince me to go back to the colorless build. Metalworker just became a lot more dangerous. Ugin, unlike Sundering Titan or other threats, is extremely resilient and wins the game. While Karn is very good, Karn is not a hard win condition by itself.. Ugin can at worst bolt every turn (even to the face, which is 6 to 9 damage should you go to time with 5 turns left), answer threats and close games quickly through its ultimate. It cannot be answered by conventional legacy answers (Bolt, Jace bounce, reb, beb, swords to plowshares, Karakas, abrupt decay) nor can he be easily raced (+2 answers creatures pressuring him by growing and killing them at the same time).

From the top of my head the only cards that can really do something about Ugin are Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse and Chain of Vapor which are played in decks like turbo eldrazi and nic fit, OR decks that just ignore him and combo off instead (storm/belcher), but those decks are typically weak against the many lock pieces available to us. Show and Tell / Reanimator is a different story, Karn is still better here but they're probably both too slow to matter there.

Karn under the pressure of a deck like Delver could still be raced because his board answer is a -3 which puts him at 3 loyalty (bolt range, nimble mongoose range). That's perhaps the most important difference with Ugin who jumps to 9 (or 6, answering multiple mongeese with it's -x ability).

[Mr. Froggy]

Metalworker just became a lot more dangerous.

As if Metalworker needed to be more dangerous. ;)

[bruizar]

As if Metalworker needed to be more dangerous. ;)

True true :). My gripe with the colorless build was always the all-in mentality and conditionality of kuldotha forgemaster combined with the extreme curve and the lack of a draw engine. Turbo Eldrazi has eye of ugin and expedition map to curve into an inevitable and consistently drawn Eldrazi, but MUD does not have this luxury due to chalice of the void competing with expedition map and Candelabra of Tawnoss. I am really curious how the colorless MUD pilots will fare in the Ugin-era and how Turbo Eldrazi will do.

I have found myself stuck between several archetypes with my RG-artifact adventures (Somewhere between Turbo Eldrazi, MUD, Sylvan Plug and Stax) and thus I will be silent about the deck until I am able to find a position in the legacy meta that is uniquely addressed by it.

[aCatNamedBootsy]

After seeing Ugin yesterday I went ahead and proxied up a coupled of copies for MUD dropping my 4th copy of each Chalice and Trinisphere. I played the deck against Elves and a couple of games I went turn two Metalworker into turn three Ugin which felt really good. Elves can't deal with a resolved Ugin.

For reference, here's my list with Ugin:

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Spellskite
2 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Grim Monolith
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Karn Liberated
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva

[Bobmans]

Every fair deck can scoop when Ugin resolves and activates.
Btw how are the Grim Monolith during testing? Currently i feel it is being weak in the cloudpost manabase.

[dcosiem]

I like the abscence of Wasteland in your list, it really hasn't done much for me, and I've always wanted the 4th Cavern of Souls, the 4th Vesuva also seems really nice in the deck.

What do you use Winter Orb against?

Lands..

THat Ugin card is nasty and will be a perfect addition to this deck. Expect to play at least 2 or 1. This is the perfect card for 12 post Mud at the moment. And 12 post Mud in the current meta is super bonkers right now because there are too much delver decks going around. 12 Post Mud is that Pacman shit.