[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

[Manipulato]

Hi!
I'm Fabio Aliprandi, the owner of this list.
I decided to play this list because of the increase of Red Prison, Delver decks, Combo and others...I prefer to reduce casting cost (only 1 jace and playset of goyf) against aggro/fast decks.
In every matchup GOYF was MVP. I've lost only 2 games(top8 against Mar and another 4c Control with decay)....Only in this game I would have liked to have TNN instead of Goyf.

So, in addition:
- To the slaughter: It is too strong right now (against 4c I played this one against Jace and DRS in Swiss). 2 Edicts maindeck help me to not to play dismember maindeck (4 life can be too much)
- Sylvan Library MD: I don't know the reason why all BUG players don't play this MD...It is one of the best cards ever printed.
- Split 3 (llveil,llhope,jace): the trio of wonders. LLVEIL instead of 4th tourach, llhope against small creatures, jace as engine.
- Tarmogoyf: Every time I played this one, I gave to my opponent a 3-turn clock. It is immense. In addition I can play Toxic Deluge maindeck with its.
- SIDEBOARD: my change will be -1EE +1BBLOSSOM, against lands, bg depths, 4c control. The others are crucial.
- NO SNAPCASTER MAGE: I think that this fantastic spell is too strong in 'RED' decks, not here. I prefered to cut it in order to have all responses maindeck (slaughter, deluge, pws etc.)

Swiss:
white stax 2-0
ur delver 2-1
4c control 1-2
burn 2-0
eldrazi 2-1
ant 2-1
sneak&show I.D.

TOP8
Mar Czech Pile 0-2 (maybe you willsee the feature match in a few days on youtube).

Do u want a small report? As soon as possible I'll do that.

Hi,
gratz on the great result, glad that a BUG made it to the top 8 bracket :smile:

I personally would say that the whole debate around Tarmogoyf vs TNN/SCM is all about the expected meta, nothing more nothing less. If your wanna get a litte bit more win percentage vs Burn, Chalice prison decks, UR Delver or any combo deck in general then Tarmogoyf is very fast and strong here just because he adds a super aggressive clock and is way bigger than anything on the other side of the table, especially with Jace and Strix in the MD.

If you expect more grindy/controlish decks and also more DnT and Elves for example than 2 TNN + 2 SCM are way better just because a stupid big vanilla dude sucks in matchups where your oponent can A) Stall it to death like DnT/Elves or B) Has tons of spotremoval for it...

Your personal MU´s on the event show this perfectly, nearly just good MU´s for Tarmogoyf execpt for your 2 Czech Pile MU´s which you of course lost.

I had to the Slaughter not on my list and I think it´s a interesting option in the SB to get rid of oposing PW´s...Two for one´ing your oponent and getting rid of a dude + PW is a big advantage especially because the deck cannot handle PW. Delirium should not be that difficult to activate, cc3 is a bit stupid but ok cant have it all I think.

Sylvan Library is of course a powerhouse but I personally have not find room for it in the past, so it had no place, sadly...

Greetings Franz

[toffee]

Preface: I don’t speak english very well, so I apologize in advance eheheh


4 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
3 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 bayou
1 island
1 swamp

4 deathrite shaman
4 baleful strix
4 tarmogoyf
2 leovold, emissary of trest

1 liliana of the veil
1 liliana, the last hope
1 jace, the mind sculptor

4 force of will
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
3 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
2 fatal push
1 toxic deluge
1 to the slaughter
1 sylvan library

SIDEBOARD
2 surgical extraction
2 flusterstorm
1 thoughtseize
1 grafdigger’s cage
1 pithing needle
1 leovold, emissary of trest
1 liliana, the last hope
1 engineered explosives
1 golgari charm
1 toxic deluge
1 diabolic edict
1 blue elemental blast
1 life from the loam


T1: WHITE STAX 2-0 (1-0)
G1: My opponent mulligans to 6 and he started with plains go. In my turn DRS e in his next turn Thalia, Heretic forced by me. The next 2 turn Hymn to tourach, Liliana of the veil and a Goyf brought home the match. I’ve never played against this archetype, so I didn’t know to side in/out very well. Win.

SIDEBOARD: +1 thoughtseize, +1 golgari charm, +1 toxic deluge, +1 diabolic edict, +1 pithing needle(karn,gideon maybe,stoneforge etc..) ||| -2 leovold, -1 llhope, -1 ponder, -1 strix

G2: I have seen 1 Tourach and 1 Seize, forcing Suppression Field and then 2 Goyf 6/7 brought home the match. I think that my opponent should have mulligan his hand. Win.

T2: UR DELVER 2-1 (2-0)
G1: I start with DRS, my opponent with Volcanic-Monastery. The next turn wasteland + abrupt decay..the next turn his stormchaser was useless with my Strix and a Goyf gave 3-turn clock. Win.

SIDEBOARD: +2 flusterstorm, +1 blue elemental blast, +1 diabolic edict ||| -1 llhope, -1 jace, -1 deluge, -1 library

G2: Delver flip and flusterstorm on my fatal push, Daze on diabolic edict and 3 vapor snag on my baleful strix. Lost.
G3: I start with DRS, Volcanic-Ponder my opponent. In my turn wasteland + tourach change the match…After that Abrupt decay on his Stormchaser and Goyf brought home the match. Win.

T3: 4C CONTROL 1-2 (2-1)
G1: library on turn 2, tourach + push on his drs on turn 3, and then llhope. He conceded.

SIDEBOARD: +2 flusterstorm, +1 blue elemental blast, +1 thoughtseize, +1 llhope, +1 leovold, +1 golgari charm, +1 life from the loam ||| -4 Force of will, -2 Fatal Push, -1 Ponder, -1 Abrupt Decay

G2: a fantastic game. His jace and DRS were destroyed by To the slaughter, but from the top he topdecked 2 kolaghan’s command + 1 snapcaster mage……kcommand is too strong against us. Lose.
G3: the best game. He managed to resolve 4 leovold (1 from llhope ability), 4 goyf with 2 toxic deluge to 7 (yes, he was at 7 life points – 2 fetches), 2 llhope, 1 llveil and my Jace. I’vee seen all, but he was very lucky to draw all answers…I’m dead at second additional turn with DRS ability, Bolt, Snapcaster + Bolt, DRS Ability. One of the best game i’ve ever played.

T4: BURN 2-0 (3-1)
G1: I start with fetch go – open push (hand with 2 fetch, 1 push, 1 goyf, 1 tourach, 1 force, 1 strix), goblin guide trigger to land and push’em. In my turn tourach and the next turn goyf (with tourach discarded Chain and eidolon)……..Force on sulfuric vortex and GG…Goyf was immense.

SIDEBOARD: +2 flusterstorm, +1 blue elemental blast, +1 diabolic edict||| -1 llhope, -1 jace, -1 deluge, -1 library

G2: I drew very well: 2 tourach, 1 flusterstorm and 1 blue elemental blast, 1 sea, 1 fetch, 1 goyf….I think you understand the power of goyf, after this hand eheheheh

T5: ELDRAZI 2-1 (4-1)
G1: He mulligans to 6 and in his 2 turn he played only chalice to 1. I started with DRS and Goyf. Turn 3 TKSeer was too little rather than my Goyf, but he exiled my LLVeil….After that I played another Goyf to kill him in 3 turns.

SIDEBOARD: +1 diabolic edict, +1 life from the loam, +1 pithing needle, +1 thoughtseize||| -1 llhope, -1 library, -2 leovold

G2: The best start for Eldrazi. Eye of Ugin – 2 Mimic. Tomb + Seer. Eldrazi Temple + Smasher. G3 FAST.
G3: My hand was: 2 fetch, 1 waste, 1 drs, 1 loam, 1 strix, 1 force….I started with fetch + drs…in his turn mishra’s factory + dismember on drs…FORCE!!!!!!!!. In my turn wasteland + loam. CONCEDE!!!

T6: ANT 2-1 (5-1)
G1: He started with Gitaxian Probe and he saw I didn’t have force….12 Goblin on turn 1 -.-….G2.

SIDEBOARD: +2 surgical extraction, +2 flusterstorm, +1 seize, +1 leovold, +1 golgari, +1 grafdigger ||| -1 llhope, -4 strix, -2 push, -1 to the slaughter

G2: I think started with a slow hand, because I made lands DRS + Leovold next turn (he played a lot of cantrips, but he could’nt draw)..after my tourach at 4th turn, in addition with Goyf he conceded.
G3: The same with G2, but he decided to storm with Leovold onto the blattlefield…With his Tendrils I drew a lot of cards and I found flusterstorm….GG!!! Thanks Leovold.

T7: SNEAK & SHOW ID (5-1-1)

TOP 8 !!!!!
CZECH PILE – Tomas Mar 0-2
I know this guy and I tell u he is a very strong player, in addition humble and friendly. I don’t want to report this match, because in the next days “Ovinotournament” will upload feature matches on Youtube. A preface: Tomas he apologized for his 2 kolaghan command’s from the top with 0 card in hand eheheheh (G1). G2 lost with 3 lands……So, At the end of the match Tomas told me that his deck was sit very well against control decks.



Questions:
- Surgical extraction SIDE-IN against 4c/Czech Pile ? I’m scared about drawback.
- Tell me different sideboard options and comments, please!

[toffee]

My choices to play TNN/GOYF are these:

or

4 goyf + 1 deluge

or

3 tnn + 1 jitte + 1 push/dismember

The rest of the decks is too crucial right now (Slaughter/Edict, 2Jace/1 veil etc...). In my opinion, obviusly.

[FlinkerMomonga]

Ok guys the DRS ban hit us hard :frown:

I don't really know what is going to await us but here is my first approach (see post #1495 for my old list):

- 4 Deathrite Shaman
- 1 Snapcaster Mage

+3 Tarmogoyf
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Ponder

So that would be my first list:

//Lands
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Wasteland

//Creatures
4 Baleful Strix
3 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

//Instant
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

//Sorcery
4 Ponder
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize

//Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Artifact
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Sideboard
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Life from the Loam
2 Hydroblast
2 Marsh Casualties
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Hymn to Tourach


What I'd really like to see in this deck are:
1) 1-2 Liliana of the Veil
2) The fourth Wasteland
3) A third Hymn to Tourach

What are your thoughts on the future of this deck?

[ReinhardtGao]

Ok guys the DRS ban hit us hard :frown:

I don't really know what is going to await us but here is my first approach (see post #1495 for my old list):

- 4 Deathrite Shaman
- 1 Snapcaster Mage

+3 Tarmogoyf
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Ponder

So that would be my first list:

//Lands
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Wasteland

//Creatures
4 Baleful Strix
3 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

//Instant
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

//Sorcery
4 Ponder
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize

//Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Artifact
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Sideboard
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Life from the Loam
2 Hydroblast
2 Marsh Casualties
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Hymn to Tourach


What I'd really like to see in this deck are:
1) 1-2 Liliana of the Veil
2) The fourth Wasteland
3) A third Hymn to Tourach

What are your thoughts on the future of this deck?

My only concern is, without the 1cc acceleration, will it be too slow to expand this deck?

[FlinkerMomonga]

My only concern is, without the 1cc acceleration, will it be too slow to expand this deck?

That's my concern too. I goldfished my list yesterday and it was very clunky.
Maybe we can also play a discard split of 2-2-2 IoK/TS/Hymn to get a better curve.

[whocansay]

Is Noble Hierarch an option for us at all? Really grasping here.

[JanoschEausH]

This is what I am testing at the moment:

Creatures: (12)
4x Baleful Strix
2x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tarmogoyf
2x True-Name Nemesis

Instants: (14)
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
3x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will

Lands: (23)
2x Bayou
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland

Planeswalkers: (3)
2x Jace, the Mind-Sculptor
1x Liliana, the Last Hope

Sorceries: (8)
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Ponder
3x Thoughtseize

No Sideboard ATM

The list feels kinda good. I tested against RUG Delver, Esper Stoneblade, Miracles, Reanimator, Eldrazi and Show and Tell. Its definitely just a starting point for me. I looked back to 2014 and found some lists similar to this one. The deck is slower ofc, but the whole Meta will be slowing down I assume, so it feels okayish. I'm debating about a lot of slots at the moment. For example:

- How much Discard do we want? I feel like Hymn is too slow without DRS (you gain against SnT and Reanimator and lose to RUG and Eldrazi). Is IoK still playable? During testing, 5 CMC1 discard spells felt great. There were times against Eldrazi where IoK was not able to grab anything though. I might test going up to 6 CMC1 discard spells.

- How many planeswalkers do we want? The old lists from 2014 were quite heavy on them (mostly 6 planeswalker - 3 Jace, 3 Lilly). During testing I found that 6 felt too much and too clunky. But who knows, when the meta is right it might be possible to shave on cantrips and creatures and incorporate more PWs.

- What creatures do we want? I like to spread my creatures to mitigate the hate, just like the player who won the Dutch Legacy Open. 4 Baleful Strix felt good, especially against RUG and Eldrazi. 2 Snappys felt good aswell. I didn't miss DRS too much with this build.

What do you guys think?

[FlinkerMomonga]

This is what I am testing at the moment:

Creatures: (12)
4x Baleful Strix
2x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tarmogoyf
2x True-Name Nemesis

Instants: (14)
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
3x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will

Lands: (23)
2x Bayou
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland

Planeswalkers: (3)
2x Jace, the Mind-Sculptor
1x Liliana, the Last Hope

Sorceries: (8)
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Ponder
3x Thoughtseize

No Sideboard ATM

What's your experience with Creeping Tar Pit?
I've never played a manland before in a BUG build so I'm kinda unexperienced with that :laugh:


The list feels kinda good. I tested against RUG Delver, Esper Stoneblade, Miracles, Reanimator, Eldrazi and Show and Tell. Its definitely just a starting point for me. I looked back to 2014 and found some lists similar to this one. The deck is slower ofc, but the whole Meta will be slowing down I assume, so it feels okayish.

What's your first experience with opposing Wastelands / Stifles?
My list that I posted above was too clunky and had massive problems against Wastelands.



- How much Discard do we want? I feel like Hymn is too slow without DRS (you gain against SnT and Reanimator and lose to RUG and Eldrazi). Is IoK still playable? During testing, 5 CMC1 discard spells felt great. There were times against Eldrazi where IoK was not able to grab anything though. I might test going up to 6 CMC1 discard spells.

I agree on you with Hymn. I think what we really need now is a solid curve and we can get that through CMC1 discard spells.
I guess we have to wait and test what the best configuration will be. But I can imagine a 3-3 split with IoK and TS.


- How many planeswalkers do we want? The old lists from 2014 were quite heavy on them (mostly 6 planeswalker - 3 Jace, 3 Lilly). During testing I found that 6 felt too much and too clunky. But who knows, when the meta is right it might be possible to shave on cantrips and creatures and incorporate more PWs.

I think 3-4 will be the numbers to run but 6 are too much for my taste.
Have you considered LOTV instead of LTLH?


- What creatures do we want? I like to spread my creatures to mitigate the hate, just like the player who won the Dutch Legacy Open. 4 Baleful Strix felt good, especially against RUG and Eldrazi. 2 Snappys felt good aswell. I didn't miss DRS too much with this build.

I like the idea of spreading the creatures.
What's your opinion on Jitte? Now that DnT will rise again, I think it would fit even better in the deck than before.

[Final Fortune]

Is Noble Hierarch an option for us at all? Really grasping here.

I think you're playing BANT at that point, I'd look to Green Sun's Zenith first since you get a combination of acceleration, threats and utility.

[toffee]

After ban, I think I'll test this deck, (from my deck which made top8, http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=27885&iddeck=225455)


4 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
3 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 bayou
1 island
1 swamp
1 forest

4 baleful strix
4 tarmogoyf
2 leovold, emissary of trest

1 liliana of the veil
1 liliana, the last hope
1 jace, the mind sculptor

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
3 thoughtseize
2 hymn to tourach
3 fatal push
3 abrupt decay
1 sylvan library
1 to the slaughter
1 toxic deluge

SIDEBOARD
2 surgical extraction
1 grafdigger's cage
1 nihil spellbomb
2 flusterstorm
1 blue elemental blast
1 leovold, emissary of trest
1 diabolic edict
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
1 pithing needle
1 life from the loam
1 liliana, the last hope
1 garruk relentless / scavenging ooze

What do u think about this idea?

[JanoschEausH]

After ban, I think I'll test this deck, (from my deck which made top8, http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=27885&iddeck=225455)


4 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
3 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 bayou
1 island
1 swamp
1 forest

4 baleful strix
4 tarmogoyf
2 leovold, emissary of trest

1 liliana of the veil
1 liliana, the last hope
1 jace, the mind sculptor

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
3 thoughtseize
2 hymn to tourach
3 fatal push
3 abrupt decay
1 sylvan library
1 to the slaughter
1 toxic deluge

SIDEBOARD
2 surgical extraction
1 grafdigger's cage
1 nihil spellbomb
2 flusterstorm
1 blue elemental blast
1 leovold, emissary of trest
1 diabolic edict
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
1 pithing needle
1 life from the loam
1 liliana, the last hope
1 garruk relentless / scavenging ooze

What do u think about this idea?

Your list looks interesting. From my limited testing I can say, that 21 lands is definitely not enough. I would say minimum 22, better 23 (if you want to play Wasteland, that is). What I really like about your list is the incorporation of 1x Toxic Deluge MD. I think we need to take precautions against Death n Taxes. This deck is pretty strong right now and not a good matchup for us. Therefor I like 4x Goyf in your list. Goyf will be everywhere again and I calculate with Fatal Push being everywhere in the next weeks also. So we might want to bring in Delve creatures like Tombstalker and Gurmag Angler to combat that. I would also suggest to go 4x Fatal Push and 2x Decay just to curve out better.

As I wrote above, I'm not a fan of Hymn anymore. In a Tempo-Style build it might still shine. For us it's too random I fear. Nothing worse than tapping out turn 2 for Hymn, hitting low-impact cards and then losing the board to whatever our opponent has left. Therefore I propose going back to 5-6 CMC1 discard spells (also better for our curve)

I like the idea of To The Slaughter. We definitely neet to find ways to answer opposing Jaces or opposing delve creatures.

In the end we have to look how the meta shapes up and then change accordingly.

Edit: Regarding your questions FlinkerMomonga, I didn't have to many problems against Stifle/Wasteland. Playing 23 lands helps alot. We might want more basics tho. The manland felt good. In my first iteration I played even 2 Tar Pits. Coming into play tapped is boo, but it really helps against miracles and other planeswalker decks. I think miracles will be a really strong contender in the next days, so I feel like preparing for that. Regarding Lilianas: I feel like I don't want more than 1 LTLH. But one feels great, it helps against miracles and DNT. LOTV on the other hand is also great against miracles and helps against RUG Delver but is weaker to DNT. If I would be running more planeswalker I could see myself going 2x Jace, 1x LOTV and 1x LTLH. Regarding Jitte: With how many creatures we play, Jitte might be quite good. I could totally see a one-of in the maindeck.

[FlinkerMomonga]

Edit: Regarding your questions FlinkerMomonga, I didn't have to many problems against Stifle/Wasteland. Playing 23 lands helps alot. We might want more basics tho. The manland felt good. In my first iteration I played even 2 Tar Pits. Coming into play tapped is boo, but it really helps against miracles and other planeswalker decks. I think miracles will be a really strong contender in the next days, so I feel like preparing for that. Regarding Lilianas: I feel like I don't want more than 1 LTLH. But one feels great, it helps against miracles and DNT. LOTV on the other hand is also great against miracles and helps against RUG Delver but is weaker to DNT. If I would be running more planeswalker I could see myself going 2x Jace, 1x LOTV and 1x LTLH. Regarding Jitte: With how many creatures we play, Jitte might be quite good. I could totally see a one-of in the maindeck.

Thanks for your answers.
I will try your list with the following changes:

-1 Creeping Tar Pit
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope

+1 Inquisition of Kozilek
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

The Sideboard is currently just a pure estimation but this will be my first attempt for an unknown meta:

3 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
2 Hydroblast
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

[toffee]

Your list looks interesting. From my limited testing I can say, that 21 lands is definitely not enough. I would say minimum 22, better 23 (if you want to play Wasteland, that is). What I really like about your list is the incorporation of 1x Toxic Deluge MD. I think we need to take precautions against Death n Taxes. This deck is pretty strong right now and not a good matchup for us. Therefor I like 4x Goyf in your list. Goyf will be everywhere again and I calculate with Fatal Push being everywhere in the next weeks also. So we might want to bring in Delve creatures like Tombstalker and Gurmag Angler to combat that. I would also suggest to go 4x Fatal Push and 2x Decay just to curve out better.

As I wrote above, I'm not a fan of Hymn anymore. In a Tempo-Style build it might still shine. For us it's too random I fear. Nothing worse than tapping out turn 2 for Hymn, hitting low-impact cards and then losing the board to whatever our opponent has left. Therefore I propose going back to 5-6 CMC1 discard spells (also better for our curve)

I like the idea of To The Slaughter. We definitely neet to find ways to answer opposing Jaces or opposing delve creatures.

In the end we have to look how the meta shapes up and then change accordingly.

Edit: Regarding your questions FlinkerMomonga, I didn't have to many problems against Stifle/Wasteland. Playing 23 lands helps alot. We might want more basics tho. The manland felt good. In my first iteration I played even 2 Tar Pits. Coming into play tapped is boo, but it really helps against miracles and other planeswalker decks. I think miracles will be a really strong contender in the next days, so I feel like preparing for that. Regarding Lilianas: I feel like I don't want more than 1 LTLH. But one feels great, it helps against miracles and DNT. LOTV on the other hand is also great against miracles and helps against RUG Delver but is weaker to DNT. If I would be running more planeswalker I could see myself going 2x Jace, 1x LOTV and 1x LTLH. Regarding Jitte: With how many creatures we play, Jitte might be quite good. I could totally see a one-of in the maindeck.

22 lands might be right in my build.
About discard spells, I think tourach is still too strong not to be played. 2x is right because of on-the-draw is less strong.
3x push and 3x decay are obligatory.
I think that a lot of players may play leyline of the void, so I think to not to play Angler/Stalker now...I don't know what decks will be in the next tournaments..
And then...I would like to play 2 jace, 1 lotv and 1ltlh...but I can't find a slot for the 2nd Jace in my build....Any thoughts? I prefer to reduce casting cost for DT and RUG...



PS: In my opinion, I think that GRIXIS control is better than BUG right now.

[Raffaele191]

Hey guys, new to the thread! Long time a Jund player, just recently moved to BUG because tired of horrible combo matchups. I was reflecting on what to play after drs got banned (begone dear friend) and in researching old metagame decklists I stumbled upon one that caught my attention.

Marco Cammilluzzi playing BUG Control Position: 1
Deck Name: BUG Control Sideboard
Creatures [4]
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
Instants [15]
1 Counterspell
1 Dismember
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
Sorceries [10]
1 Duress
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
Enchantments [2]
2 Pernicious Deed
Planeswalkers [7]
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands [22]
1 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Perish
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Spell Pierce
3 Leyline of the Void
1 ?

This decklist was around during TopMiracles and NO/PRO-bant, BR reanimator, UW stoneblade and both jeskai and rug delver. Overtime BUG colors have gained good cards such decay, leovold, fatal push, liliana the last hope, toxic deluge and baleful strix, aswell as true-name nemesis.
This is the decklist I've come up to during this last week of testing, mainly versus canadian threshold, br reanimator, miracles.
The 75 keep in mind a metagame composed by Reanimator, Dredge, Death and Taxes, Canadian, BUG Threshold (?), Dragon Stompy, Miracles and UWx Stoneblade, but there are many cards I would like to add: to the slaughter is the last one, which I thank Toffee for.
Creatures [10]
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Tarmogoyf
Instants [16]
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
Sorceries [8]
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Enchantments [1]
1 Sylvan Library
Planeswalkers [2]
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
Lands [23]
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Dark Confidant
2 Flusterstorm
1 Life from the loam
1 Liliana, The Last Hope
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Diabolic Edict

One of the options I've thought of is to go full control mode maindeck, moving tarmogoyfs in the side and thus cutting confidants, adding some number of counterspells, a 2nd jace or liliana of the veil.
I can't see hymn to tourach working as it should be (sadly), don't like baleful strix in some of the matchups stated above (it shines against canadian, mediocre against reanimator and uwx stoneblade, poor vs dnt dredge and dragon stompy).
What are your thoughts on the decklist? What would you change?
I hope this may help brewing something better than I can figure out on my own.

[tobyha]

I think noble hierarchs might be necessary. Without playing hymns they might be the acceleration needed to face RUG Delver and Reanimator. There is still enough card advantage left to win grindy games. im going to try this list at my fnm:

Artifacts: (2)
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Engineered Explosives

Creatures: (13)
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Baleful Strix
2x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x True-Name Nemesis
1x Scavenging Ooze

Instants: (16)
1x Spell Pierce
1x Counterspell
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Fatal Push
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will

Lands: (21)
2x Bayou
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
1x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland

Planeswalkers: (3)
2x Jace, the Mind-Sculptor
1x Liliana, the Last Hope

Sorceries: (5)
3x Ponder
2x Thoughtseize

[JanoschEausH]

I think noble hierarchs might be necessary. Without playing hymns they might be the acceleration needed to face RUG Delver and Reanimator. There is still enough card advantage left to win grindy games. im going to try this list at my fnm:

Artifacts: (2)
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Engineered Explosives

Creatures: (13)
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Baleful Strix
2x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x True-Name Nemesis
1x Scavenging Ooze

Instants: (16)
1x Spell Pierce
1x Counterspell
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Fatal Push
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will

Lands: (21)
2x Bayou
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
1x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland

Planeswalkers: (3)
2x Jace, the Mind-Sculptor
1x Liliana, the Last Hope

Sorceries: (5)
3x Ponder
2x Thoughtseize

Your list looks definitely sweet, please report how your games went!

[tobyha]

3-1 with that list

won against burn 2-1, 2 games after sideboarding (2 fluster storms, 1 blue elemental blast)

2-0 against nic fit (was able to grind him out, true-name + leovold + jace did their thing and showed me, that this deck has a good midrange potential, even with the mana dorks)

2-0 against dredge (was lucky to hit my one of scavenging ooze on a mulligan + the acceleration of noble hierarch, after sideboarding i had 5 hate cards in my deck and it got a lot easier)

1-2 vs dnt , ( i made a terrible play at the start of game 3, played an ooze vs a vial on 1, with a push in my hand... he vialed in a mother of runes and i couldnt keep up - should have been a close game...)


other decks at the fnm: rug delver, stoneblade, 2nd dnt, maverick, 2nd nic fit


i really liked the ooze and with an expected reanimator and snapcaster meta i can even see me play 2.
the acceleration of the noble hierarch saved my ass 2-3 times.

[FlinkerMomonga]

Do you guys think we can still afford 3 Wastelands and don't run any mana acceleration?

I thought about cutting the Wastelands for Underground Sea #4 and maybe Bayou #2.
The third Wasteland would be replaced by either a 2nd Diabolic Edict or an additional beater like Tarmogoyf mainboard.

This would be a more Grixis Control stylish way for the deck.
The list would for example look like this:

Land [20]
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island

Creature [12]
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Gurmag Angler

Instant [17]
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict

Sorcery [8]
4 Ponder
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize

Planeswalker [3]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Sideboard [15]
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Flusterstorm
2 Hydroblast
1 Sylvan Library
1 Thoughtseize

[toffee]

Do you guys think we can still afford 3 Wastelands and don't run any mana acceleration?

I thought about cutting the Wastelands for Underground Sea #4 and maybe Bayou #2.
The third Wasteland would be replaced by either a 2nd Diabolic Edict or an additional beater like Tarmogoyf mainboard.

This would be a more Grixis Control stylish way for the deck.
The list would for example look like this:

Land [20]
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island

Creature [12]
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Gurmag Angler

Instant [17]
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict

Sorcery [8]
4 Ponder
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize

Planeswalker [3]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Sideboard [15]
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Flusterstorm
2 Hydroblast
1 Sylvan Library
1 Thoughtseize

In my opinion, Wastelands/Goyf/Decay/Library are the reasons to play BUG instead of Grixis. If someone miss on main/side, I think it should be better to play Grixis (pyro,bolt,kcommand,power of snapcaster).
In BUG shell I think 1-2 snapcaster mage are right. I think 3-of is too-much, because there aren't so much strong spells rather than grixis.
Wasteland is really strong right now, without DRS. Why not play them?!
In addition, I think that, after ban, basic forest should be a must-have in this archetype.

[FlinkerMomonga]

Wasteland is really strong right now, without DRS. Why not play them?!

For me it happend way too often that I was extremely screwed because of the lacking colors of wasteland.
But I know what you mean. The wastelands were my main reason to quit Czech Pile and move to BUG pre ban.

[meffeo]

3-1 with that list

won against burn 2-1, 2 games after sideboarding (2 fluster storms, 1 blue elemental blast)

2-0 against nic fit (was able to grind him out, true-name + leovold + jace did their thing and showed me, that this deck has a good midrange potential, even with the mana dorks)

2-0 against dredge (was lucky to hit my one of scavenging ooze on a mulligan + the acceleration of noble hierarch, after sideboarding i had 5 hate cards in my deck and it got a lot easier)

1-2 vs dnt , ( i made a terrible play at the start of game 3, played an ooze vs a vial on 1, with a push in my hand... he vialed in a mother of runes and i couldnt keep up - should have been a close game...)


other decks at the fnm: rug delver, stoneblade, 2nd dnt, maverick, 2nd nic fit


i really liked the ooze and with an expected reanimator and snapcaster meta i can even see me play 2.
the acceleration of the noble hierarch saved my ass 2-3 times.

Don't you think that 21 lands + 4 Hierarch are way too much? I feel like the flood might be real, and the most mana intensive spell (Jace) is easy to cast with 20 lands and 4 dorks too.

[tobyha]

Don't you think that 21 lands + 4 Hierarch are way too much? I feel like the flood might be real, and the most mana intensive spell (Jace) is easy to cast with 20 lands and 4 dorks too.

i will give it a try, but most list with drs played 21 lands too + dont forget the 3 wastelands.

[toffee]

hi mates...with my test I think that this configuration can be the best right now:


4 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
1 misty rainforest
3 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 bayou
1 island
1 swamp
1 forest

4 baleful strix
4 tarmogoyf
2 leovold, emissary of trest
2 scavenging ooze

1 liliana of the veil
1 liliana, the last hope
1 jace, the mind sculptor

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
3 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
2 fatal push
1 maelstrom pulse
1 toxic deluge
1 sylvan library

SIDEBOARD
2 flusterstorm
2 thoughtseize
2 golgari charm
2 surgical extraction
1 invasive surgery
1 life from the loam
1 to the slaughter
1 grafdigger's cage
1 pithing needle
1 liliana, the last hope
1 engineered plague

I've tested against Nic Fit, D&T, White Taxes, Miracle and RUG Delver..
I don't know how can be the matchup against combo, but right now it works fine.
22 lands are necessary right now.....unfortunately...

[tobyha]

has anyone tested search for azcanta instead of sylvan library ?

[toffee]

has anyone tested search for azcanta instead of sylvan library ?

I've tested it and....as long as I play green SL >>>>> SforAzcanta. In my opinion, obv.

[whocansay]

has anyone tested search for azcanta instead of sylvan library ?

why would you want to do that in a format with Wasteland?

[tobyha]

why would you want to do that in a format with Wasteland?

against rug delver you grind them out without search for azcanta, if you get to the midgame. search for azcanta is important for the grindy match ups and if our beloved bug-deck is a fringe deck and we face a lot of grixis and miracles it could be useful

[whocansay]

Sure. But how is it better than Sylvan in any way?

[RhoxWarMonk]

against rug delver you grind them out without search for azcanta, if you get to the midgame. search for azcanta is important for the grindy match ups and if our beloved bug-deck is a fringe deck and we face a lot of grixis and miracles it could be useful

This one's pretty easy... let's compare.

Both cost 2 mana, 1G vs 1U.

Sylvan allows you to dig 3 cards, immediately VS Search allows you to see only one card until threshold.

Once flipped, Search will dig you 4 cards, HOWEVER, you can only take an instant or sorcery and still only one VS Sylvan, which can take any card type and multiples, at the cost of 4 life.

Finally, Search is vulnerable to things like Wasteland and Blood Moon VS Sylvan, as an Enchantment, which is much tougher to get rid of.

Sylvan hands down is the better card here IMO, though I'd be happy to hear a compelling argument for Search as it's a card I really enjoy playing in standard. Just don't see a place for it in a legacy deck that plays green and has access to Sylvan.

[tobyha]

i dont think its that easy

- as i said, wasteland are mostly a factor against decks that play far more aggressive and are a big underdog in a midrange battle. against miracles and grixis (both dont play wastelands) we dont face that problem.

- your right about blood moon

- you can get planeswalkers with it too, not only instants and sorceries

- you can dig 2 deeper (4 at the end of opponents turn and 1 card drawn on your turn)

- you "lose" mana using it, but get extra mana with the transformation

- it was played by some successful czech pile lists in the past

dont get me wrong, sylvan library is an awesome card but i dont think the decision is that easy

[whocansay]

"as i said, wasteland are mostly a factor against decks that play far more aggressive and are a big underdog in a midrange battle. against miracles and grixis (both dont play wastelands) we dont face that problem"

- Ok, but against other wasteland decks you will. So in some cases wasteland will be a problem with Search, whereas it's never a problem with Library. Library beats Search.

"your right about blood moon"

- Major factor, potentially. Library beats Search.

"you can get planeswalkers with it too, not only instants and sorceries"

- Yeah, and artifacts, and enchantments. So what? It doesn't grab lands or creatures, Library does. Library beats Search.

"you can dig 2 deeper (4 at the end of opponents turn and 1 card drawn on your turn)"

- You can dig 2 deeper if it flips, if it survives, and if you hold up 4 mana. Library is dig 3 at no mana cost, immediately. Library beats Search in 90% of the cases here and that's me being generous to Search.

"you "lose" mana using it, but get extra mana with the transformation"

- You get one extra mana after it flips, if it flips, if it survives. This is not a big deal whatsoever. Library beats Search.

"it was played by some successful czech pile lists in the past"

- Uh yeah, because they wanted the filtering and they don't have reliable access to green mana. Duh?

This really is a no-brainer.

[bamannov]

Post bannings I've been playing a lot of RUG Delver (can we start calling it Canadian Threshold again???), but decided I would try out some discard and Tomb Stalkers, so I sleeved up Team America for a small local tournament.

I would love to get everyone's thoughts on the list especially SB since I threw this together quickly..

12 Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tomb Stalker
2 True Name Nemesis

28 Spells:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
1 Sylvan Library

20 Lands:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs

SB:
1 Bitterblossom
1 Thoughtseize
1 Krosan Grip
1 Fatal Push
1 Life from the Loam
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolical edict
2 Flusterstorm

The main reason I wanted to play this deck was to see how good the Hymns and Thoughtseizes would be compared to counters like Spell Pierce and Spell Snare. Also, the Abrupt Decays intrigued me. For the creature base...it may be too greedy to play two TNNs, but I think they are so powerful in all the fair matches.

I assumed people would be playing a ton of Reanimator, Dredge, and Miracles, RUG Delver, Stoneblade and Lands... which is what I kept in mind when putting this list together. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious with the SB....

Tournament Report:

I went 3-1 for the night (just a four round Tournament, prizes for top 4):

Round 1 RUG Delver Result: 0-2

Game 1, I got crushed by Stifle/Wasteland and early Delvers and Geese.
Game 2 was much closer with an early Bitterblossom doing a TON of work to keep Delvers at bay, but he drew too many creatures and closed it out with Bolts to my face....

After this match, I really started to second guess the deck choice...the discard seemed clunky and bad when top decking it. I missed Bolts too for added reach. The RUG Gods were clearly punishing me for playing with another deck....

Round 2 UR Delver 2-0

Game 1 against a new player who didn't play optimally. Early Goyfs and Stalkers made quick work.
Game two was a flood of creatures from my side, back my removal for all their's.

Round 3 Landstill/Miracles 2-1

Game 1 went super long. A slow grindy march to my doom.
Game 2 I brought in thoughtseize, bitterblossom, flusterstorm and Krosan Grip (game 3, after seeing Rest in Peace). taking out 4 Daze, 1 Fatal Push.
Another Grindy match, but Bitterblossom proved to be the game winner.
Game 3 He kept a shaky 6 carder and I blew him away with early discard and double Wasteland and Hymn proved too powerful.

I don't know what to make of this result as he was playing the Landstill version of Miracles which is NOT optimal IMO.

Round 4 Dark Threshold (???) 2-1
Game 1, I kept a shaky one lander and was promptly punished by Stifle/Wasteland.
Game 2, I took out the Thoughtseizes and FoWs and brought in Bitterblossom, Toxic Deluge (figured I can sweep their board and still keep my Stalkers), Life from the Loam, Fatal Push and 2 Edicts.
This game proved the power of Tomb Stalker over Nimble Moongoose. My TNN, Flipped Delver and Tomb Stalker fended off her 2 Delvers, 2 Geese, 1 TNN.
Game 3 I had turn two Bitterblossom backed by Daze. Early Delvers and Goyfs were Abruptly Decayed. Double Wasteland sealed the deal.

Her list ran 4 Nimble Mongoose, Stifle, Goyfs, Abrupt Decays, and Fatal Pushes

Overall, I think the deck performed alright... I only got to cast Hymn twice the whole evening. I really wanted to play against combo, D&T, and Miracles to see how the discard would hold up. Overall, I was encouraged by the raw power of Goyf, Tomb Stalker and TNN, the double Blue makes TNN tough to bring down early...but TNN proves to be a powerful finishing spell. I definitely missed the reach Burn gives you in my RUG Delver. But Tomb Stalker is suuuuuch a beast, I want to keep testing...

Would love to hear any thoughts/feedback :smile:

[toffee]

Hi mates, yesterday I made an unlucky 4-2 in my local tournament:


4 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
1 misty rainforest
3 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 bayou
1 island
1 swamp
1 forest

4 baleful strix
4 tarmogoyf
2 leovold, emissary of trest
1 scavenging ooze

2 liliana of the veil
1 liliana, the last hope
1 jace, the mind sculptor

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
3 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
2 fatal push
1 maelstrom pulse
1 toxic deluge
1 sylvan library

SIDEBOARD
2 flusterstorm
2 thoughtseize
2 golgari charm
2 surgical extraction
1 blue elemental blast
1 life from the loam
1 to the slaughter
1 grafdigger's cage
1 pithing needle
1 liliana, the last hope
1 toxic deluge

death & taxes 2-1
mono red stompy 1-2 (g1 and g3 blood moon t1)
rug delver 2-0
rug delver 1-2 (g3 lost without any green source, after 3 ponder....with 3 abrupt decay and 3 goyf in hand...delver flipped brought home the match)
jund loam 2-0
ur delver 2-0

FINAL: 4-2

This deck works very well..
- Scavenging Ooze: I've seen it only once, so I can't make a good report about this one right now. Has anyone else tried it?
- Sylvan Library MD: Against delver decks, it isn't the card u want to see. I don't know if is bettere MD or SB. Any suggestions?
- 4 Tarmogoyf / 4 Baleful Strix / 2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest / 2 Liliana of the veil / 1 Maelstrom Pulse / 1 Toxic Deluge / 4 Ponder / 4 Brainstorm / 4 Force of Will / at least 3 Hymn to tourach, 1 JTMS, 2 Fatal Push: They are a MUST-HAVE. They are too strong in this build right now.
- 0 Snapcaster Mage: When I made TOP8 in 125 players, I didn't feel the need to play it. Now, I don't know if 1-2of should be played. I think that Snapcaster shines in Grixis/uwr decks.
- 22 lands: In these days I tested with 21 and 22 lands.. And I decided to play 22 lands to feel more secure. Any suggestions?

[JanoschEausH]

Hey toffee, 4-2 doesn't sound so bad to me, considering we are still trying to find a working list. I think your list looks solid. Personally I would run some snappys. If you consider some of the BUG-Control list from http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=28008 they all seem to run on 21 lands. Looks weird to me but it worked for them. Most of the lists were running 1-2 Snapcaster Mages and I think Snapcaster is a good card to flash back Cantrips and removal. It's a really nice topdeck in the lategame, too. About your Scavenging Ooze I'm not too sure tho. Feels like you don't have access to that much green mana (if we played Hierarch, Scooze could be good I think, but your list can't support it propperly, I feel).

In my testing I found Baleful Strix to be surprisingly bad. I ended up cutting 2 and still am considering to cut more, because the deck felt so slow and clunky. I think Strix might be better in Shadless Agent builds. There was a 5-0 list which looked similiar to your but it ran 3 Dazes, which I think is quite cool.

I'm still trying out my 6-CMC1-Discards but maybe I gonna switch back to Hymns. Having Hymns ist just really good against the meta right now.

[toffee]

Hey toffee, 4-2 doesn't sound so bad to me, considering we are still trying to find a working list. I think your list looks solid. Personally I would run some snappys. If you consider some of the BUG-Control list from http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=28008 they all seem to run on 21 lands. Looks weird to me but it worked for them. Most of the lists were running 1-2 Snapcaster Mages and I think Snapcaster is a good card to flash back Cantrips and removal. It's a really nice topdeck in the lategame, too. About your Scavenging Ooze I'm not too sure tho. Feels like you don't have access to that much green mana (if we played Hierarch, Scooze could be good I think, but your list can't support it propperly, I feel).

In my testing I found Baleful Strix to be surprisingly bad. I ended up cutting 2 and still am considering to cut more, because the deck felt so slow and clunky. I think Strix might be better in Shadless Agent builds. There was a 5-0 list which looked similiar to your but it ran 3 Dazes, which I think is quite cool.

I'm still trying out my 6-CMC1-Discards but maybe I gonna switch back to Hymns. Having Hymns ist just really good against the meta right now.

He plays 21 lands because of Life from the loam MD (I don't like it md) and 6 cc3+. In addition, he plays daze to save duals on bouncing and.
In my opinion, Baleful Strix saved me all games at the tournament....at least 3-of in my opinion right now.
About Ooze/Snapcaster: In every game my life points were between 3 and 7.....so bad. Ooze saved me with Jund Loam to remove PFIRE and Loam...I don't know what could be the best configuration.
And about Library MD, what is your suggestion?
Another question, about my list, do u think to cut 1 fetch / 1 wasteland, going to 21 lands?


About this list: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=28008&iddeck=227160
Against Red Stompy, RUG Delver, D&T, Eldrazi, Combo decks? Have u tried this list? I don't know without Strix / Deluge how can win against certain matchups..

[FlinkerMomonga]

He plays 21 lands because of Life from the loam MD (I don't like it md) and 6 cc3+. In addition, he plays daze to save duals on bouncing and.
In my opinion, Baleful Strix saved me all games at the tournament....at least 3-of in my opinion right now.
About Ooze/Snapcaster: In every game my life points were between 3 and 7.....so bad. Ooze saved me with Jund Loam to remove PFIRE and Loam...I don't know what could be the best configuration.
And about Library MD, what is your suggestion?
Another question, about my list, do u think to cut 1 fetch / 1 wasteland, going to 21 lands?


About this list: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=28008&iddeck=227160
Against Red Stompy, RUG Delver, D&T, Eldrazi, Combo decks? Have u tried this list? I don't know without Strix / Deluge how can win against certain matchups..

I've cut 1 Wasteland in my list and added a forest for it so I'm still on 22 lands:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Wasteland

Maybe I'd remove one fetchland from my landbase but 2 Wastelands are enough in my opinion in such a slow deck with hard mana requirements.
And I agree with you regarding the Baleful Strix. The card is essential for this deck and I'd never play anything else but the full playset.

[toffee]

I've cut 1 Wasteland in my list and added a forest for it so I'm still on 22 lands:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Wasteland

Maybe I'd remove one fetchland from my landbase but 2 Wastelands are enough in my opinion in such a slow deck with hard mana requirements.
And I agree with you regarding the Baleful Strix. The card is essential for this deck and I'd never play anything else but the full playset.

But, are u testing the list from tcdecks? or another custom deck? and then, can u post your list?

[FlinkerMomonga]

But, are u testing the list from tcdecks? or another custom deck? and then, can u post your list?

This is my current list:

Land [22]
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Wasteland

Creature [11]
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

Instant [15]
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict

Sorcery [8]
3 Ponder
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

Planeswalker [4]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Sideboard [15]
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Hydroblast
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
1 Bitterblossom

[toffee]

This is my current list:

Land [22]
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Wasteland

Creature [11]
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

Instant [15]
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict

Sorcery [8]
3 Ponder
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

Planeswalker [4]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Sideboard [15]
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Hydroblast
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
1 Bitterblossom

About 3 fatal push, do u think that it is the right number?
In addition, 2 JTMS, with a lot of RUG Delver / Combo decks...too clunky?

[bamannov]

I'm going to be trying this list in my next local tourney:

12 Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tomb Stalker
2 True Name Nemesis

29 Spells:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library

19 Lands:
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou


SB:
1 Bitterblossom
1 Thoughtseize
1 Krosan Grip
1 Fatal Push
1 Life from the Loam
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolical Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Abrupt Decay

[porkypads]

is there any merit in trying ~2 tireless trackers in a BUG midrange/control list? or do you guys think he's too slow?

something like:

2x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wasteland

4x Baleful Strix
2x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3x Tarmogoyf
2x Tireless Tracker

1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil

2x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
3x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will

2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Ponder
3x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek

[FZA]

is there any merit in trying ~2 tireless trackers in a BUG midrange/control list? or do you guys think he's too slow?

something like:

2x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wasteland

4x Baleful Strix
2x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3x Tarmogoyf
2x Tireless Tracker

1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil

2x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
3x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will

2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Ponder
3x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek

Tracker is definitely very good. But I don't think it's powerful enough to supplant Snapcaster Mage.

I think Tracker would make more sense in a GSZ BUG deck.

[bamannov]

is there any merit in trying ~2 tireless trackers in a BUG midrange/control list? or do you guys think he's too slow?

something like:

2x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wasteland

4x Baleful Strix
2x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3x Tarmogoyf
2x Tireless Tracker

1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil

2x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
3x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will

2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Ponder
3x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek

He's waaaay too slow for a three drop in this deck/archetype..There are not enough land drops (once he's in play you've already lost 3-5 lands from your deck) to make him big enough and the clue activation is too mana intensive for the deck.

That's just my $0.02

[Storming_Dude]

Hi all,

just wanted to give a small report on my recent participation at CardMarket Series in Prague - Played the following Midrange list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Fatal Push
2 Tombstalker
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Thoughtseize

2 Diabolic Edict
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

The Sideboard was built against Tribal / D&T / Combo, which I was expecting a lot - Any suggestions are welcome!

Trial (3-1)

R1 Elves 2:1 --> Delver + Tombstalker were two times faster than Craterhoof
R2 Elves 0:2 --> Unlucky hands, maybe should have mulliganed aggressivly
R3 Cloudpost.dec 2:1 --> Game 3 he simply bricked in finding action and accerlation after the first wasteland
R4 Lands 2:1 --> Both players with lucky topdeck, mine were just a little bit better

Mainevent 5-3 drop due to time
R1 BYE
R2 Canadian 2:1 --> Tombstalker is a beast, otherwise BUG still seems to be better at grinding
R3 ANT 0:2 --> Frist round removal hand, second game he had all the necessary disruption/answers
R4 Miracles 2:1 --> Few well timed wastelands/Decay/discards shut two games down from any relevant action
R5 Worldgorger Dragon UB Grind 2:0 --> Two very grindy games, last one won by resolving two Tombstalker in one turn
R6 Miracles 0:2 --> Bit unlucky, bit outplayed but overall a great round of Magic with a lot of interaction
R7 Elves 2:1 --> Double Golgari Charm doing their work
R8 Sneak'n'Show 1:2 --> Out of prices, so drop and drive back home to Berlin

Going forward, I do like the list but am not sure whether its optimal, feels like there is room for improvement (e.g., main deck Thoughtseize) - Looking forward to any feedback!

[Wakkz]

Hi all,

just wanted to give a small report on my recent participation at CardMarket Series in Prague - Played the following Midrange list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Fatal Push
2 Tombstalker
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Thoughtseize

2 Diabolic Edict
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

The Sideboard was built against Tribal / D&T / Combo, which I was expecting a lot - Any suggestions are welcome!

Trial (3-1)

R1 Elves 2:1 --> Delver + Tombstalker were two times faster than Craterhoof
R2 Elves 0:2 --> Unlucky hands, maybe should have mulliganed aggressivly
R3 Cloudpost.dec 2:1 --> Game 3 he simply bricked in finding action and accerlation after the first wasteland
R4 Lands 2:1 --> Both players with lucky topdeck, mine were just a little bit better

Mainevent 5-3 drop due to time
R1 BYE
R2 Canadian 2:1 --> Tombstalker is a beast, otherwise BUG still seems to be better at grinding
R3 ANT 0:2 --> Frist round removal hand, second game he had all the necessary disruption/answers
R4 Miracles 2:1 --> Few well timed wastelands/Decay/discards shut two games down from any relevant action
R5 Worldgorger Dragon UB Grind 2:0 --> Two very grindy games, last one won by resolving two Tombstalker in one turn
R6 Miracles 0:2 --> Bit unlucky, bit outplayed but overall a great round of Magic with a lot of interaction
R7 Elves 2:1 --> Double Golgari Charm doing their work
R8 Sneak'n'Show 1:2 --> Out of prices, so drop and drive back home to Berlin

Going forward, I do like the list but am not sure whether its optimal, feels like there is room for improvement (e.g., main deck Thoughtseize) - Looking forward to any feedback!

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19666&f=LE
This list did pretty well in an event in China, im gonna test this one out!

[Storming_Dude]

Thanks for the reference, seems quite comparable to mine

Changes I do like:
- 1 Hymn for 1 Liliane, got several time issues with too many Hymns

Changes I personally don't like:
- Gurmags instead of Tombstalker --> Tombstalker is a beast and we can easily support BB and the flying is so important due to many creature-based decks
- Only 6 real lands --> Personal taste, I like to have the advantage of 7 reals lands vs wasteland instead of the additional shuffle - Especially with so many 3 drops in the total list

What are your thoughts?

[Wakkz]

I agree with you about tombstalker. Gurmag is a bit cheaper though but in the end that maybe doest matter. The biggest deal with this list is 2 TNN which will be interesting to see how viable he will be. Very double Blue and double black in the deck. He can be used to cast fow in worst case scenario I guess.

3 hymn seems fair. It gets as you said a bit dead as the game goes on.

One card that seldom come up is sinkhole. I screwed up B/R reanimator opponent some weeks ago with this card, preventing him to do anything. But perhaps its too excessive and situational.

[Storming_Dude]

I agree with you about tombstalker. Gurmag is a bit cheaper though but in the end that maybe doest matter. The biggest deal with this list is 2 TNN which will be interesting to see how viable he will be. Very double Blue and double black in the deck. He can be used to cast fow in worst case scenario I guess.

3 hymn seems fair. It gets as you said a bit dead as the game goes on.

One card that seldom come up is sinkhole. I screwed up B/R reanimator opponent some weeks ago with this card, preventing him to do anything. But perhaps its too excessive and situational.

TNN will be a discussion point, I'm as well not too sure that it's correct even though it's working fine - I guess it might also be there due to the lack of alternatives (Leovold is strictly worse in so many cases, we can't afford more planswalker, Baleful Strix does not apply enough pressure), any thoughts on other potential replacements?

[Wakkz]

Only one I can come up with is Liliana the last hope.
Great against opposing baleful strixes, DnT, delvers. Great at refuil graveyard for our own delve dudes and resurrect from the gy.

[toffee]

About the list, It is similar to mine. (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19666&f=LE)
I prefer Stalker over Gurmag because of the Flying ability is too strong right now. I think that his choice was to play 5 double BB spell (3 tourach and 2 llveil)..I think that he hadn't the 4th Sea (in fact he played with 10 fetches, instead of 9 + 4th sea)..
I current play 9 fetches, 3 sea, 2 bayou, 2 tropical and 4 wasteland, with 2 stalker-1 veil-3 tourach...and I have no problem about double BB, but I'm sure that 4th sea could be the right configuration (I havn't the 4th sea).
In addition, I prefer to play MD sylvan library instead of 2nd Veil.
so, my list:


4 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
1 misty rainforest
4 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 bayou
2 tropical island

4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
2 tombstalker
2 true-name nemesis

1 liliana of the veil

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 force of will
3 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize
3 abrupt decay
2 fatal push
1 sylvan library

SIDEBOARD
3 surgical extraction
2 golgari charm
2 flusterstorm
2 spell pierce
2 liliana, the last hope
2 diabolic edict
1 grafdigger’s cage
1 pithing needle

A question....I think that this archetype shouldn't be in this thread, but here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27874-Deck-Team-America-(BUG-Delver)/page149 :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

About the archetype in this thread, I've seen two similar decks...top8 and top16:

http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-prague-2018-legacy/

and

http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/122331

What do u think about these decklists?

[tobyha]

3 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland

1 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Life from the Loam
1 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Engineered Explosives
1 To the Slaughter
1 Dread of Night

thats the mkm list toffee talked about

[JanoschEausH]

Both midrange lists are quite similiar only a few differences. I just don't like Noble. Feels bad that he can't make B. But maybe this is the way to go if you go Midrange. I considered Birds of Paradise and Elves of Deep Shadow in the acceleration slot, but I feel they are strictly worse despite producing the right color. Also, if you play Noble Hierarch, you can also go straight into Shardless Agent builds I assume. Shardless might be the most powerful option available for midrange.

Those Delver lists look quite spicy, too. I really hope that Blood Moon decks go extinct, because they totally wreck BUG in general. Especially BUG Delver.

[Wakkz]

If blood moon become to dominant, I guess the only option would be to put in a basic forest and swamp, we got alot of decays dont we?

[Storming_Dude]

Have tested those Midrange lists and have to say I'm not too impressed, they clearly have their moments but the combo (especially storm) MU feels really bad and I'm personally missing the closing options as the threats are all rather slow which is on the other hand not supported by a strong control shell or card advantage spells (besides Jace).

Maybe I will drill down the removal a bit and up the hierarchs, include some counters and 1-2 real threats (e.g., Tombstalker) but let's start from there - Will let you know when I found something, that works for me

[toffee]

hi mate, yesterday I made 3-1 in my local tournament.

Storm 2-1
Blade Control 2-0
Red Stompy 1-2
Food Chain 2-0

with this list:


4 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
1 misty rainforest
3 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 bayou
1 swamp
1 island
1 forest

4 baleful strix
4 tarmogoyf
2 leovold, emissary of trest
1 tombstalker

2 liliana of the veil
1 liliana, the last hope
1 jace, the mind sculptor

4 force of will
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
3 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
3 fatal push
1 maelstrom pulse
1 toxic deluge
1 sylvan library

SIDEBOARD
3 surgical extraction
2 flusterstorm
2 thoughtseize
2 golgari charm
1 blue elemental blast
1 life from the loam
1 to the slaughter
1 grafdigger's cage
1 pithing needle
1 liliana, the last hope


I have a few question/considerations:
- Baleful strix is very strong right now, but I think to cut one-of to put a snapcaster mage...what do u think?
- I think I play too many removals....do u think to cut a fatal push for example? Pulse, Deluge, Decay are too strong right now (planeswalkers, artifacts...)..
- Tombstalker is the 5th finisher (the choice to play Stalker is the lack of damages by DRS), I've seen it only one time and I won with it....It is very strong but I don't know if can be replaced with another card (for example a snapcaster mage...or the 3th leovold)..
- 22 lands are the right number in this configuration...I can reduce one to put the 4th ponder, but in my opinion a land is better (the 9th fetch)..
- 3 tourach: a perfect number...just see one per game.
- 2 liliana of the veil: A MUST-HAVE. Essential.
- About the sideboard, I think that this configuration is perfect for an unknown metagame, because I can cover up all matchups.

Finally, -1 Strix/Push and -1 Stalker for 1-2 Snapcaster Mage ?! I don't know...in all my test only in a game I wanted to have a Snapcaster mage, but there were some matchups where baleful strix was a cycle-card.

[Storming_Dude]

Congratz to the result!

WRT to the questions you mentioned, I think we should focus on either control or a more aggressive line.

- Str Baleful strix is very strong right now, but I think to cut one-of to put a snapcaster mage...what do u think?
Yes, it seems to be quiet strong right now as the meta is slowing down - Snapcaster serves a different purpose, but I do like the cut

- I think I play too many removals....do u think to cut a fatal push for example? Pulse, Deluge, Decay are too strong right now (planeswalkers, artifacts...)..
Playing 8 removal + 4 Strix + 3 Liliana seems really a lot, 2 Pushs and 3 Strix should be fine - Especially when you add Snapcaster Mages

- Tombstalker is the 5th finisher (the choice to play Stalker is the lack of damages by DRS), I've seen it only one time and I won with it....It is very strong but I don't know if can be replaced with another card (for example a snapcaster mage...or the 3th leovold)..
Overall, the deck looks low on real win conditions with only 1 Jace and 1 Tombstalker - That's a point where you really miss DRS, so I would up both (-1 Pulse (to SB), + Stalker, -1 Liliana (your choice which) + 1 Jace), have to find out how it works

- 22 lands are the right number in this configuration...I can reduce one to put the 4th ponder, but in my opinion a land is better (the 9th fetch)..
I think that personal preference, with the deck we don't need more than 4-5 lands in play as we're still following a tap-out strategy as we don't have counters arround for which we need our mana

- 3 tourach: a perfect number...just see one per game.
- 2 liliana of the veil: A MUST-HAVE. Essential.
Agree on those two points!

The SB seems again to be heavy on removal, so combo (especially S'n'T) could get a problem as you have little interaction with them. I would suggest to make some room for the Pulse and maybe 1-2 addition counters/discards.

[RHWil]

Looking at a midrange build threat package is good. Looking to sure up SnS matchup G1. Here’s where I’m at now.

Deck: Legacy BUG Midrange 0.0.dec

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:16
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 True-Name Nemesis

Spells:24
4 Brainstorm
2 Fatal Push
3 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
1 Sylvan Library
4 Force of Will

Lands:20
1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Bitterblossom
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Winter Orb

[toffee]

Hi mates, yesterday I made 3-1 in my local tournament.

Sneak&Show 2-1
Death&Taxes 2-0
Sneak&Show 1-2
Blade Control 2-0

With this list:


4 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
1 creeping tar pit
3 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 bayou
1 island
1 swamp
1 forest

4 baleful strix
4 tarmogoyf
2 leovold, emissary of trest

2 liliana of the veil
1 liliana, the last hope
1 jace, the mind sculptor

4 force of will
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
3 fatal push
1 to the slaughter
1 toxic deluge
1 sylvan library

SIDEBOARD
3 surgical extraction
2 thoughtseize
2 flusterstorm
2 golgari charm
1 leovold, emissary of trest
1 blue elemental blast
1 life from the loam
1 grafdigger's cage
1 pithing needle
1 liliana, the last hope

This list works very well, 22 lands are the best option without DRS.
I decided to play the 4th tourach in order to have some possibilities to beat combo decks, after playing a goyf.
In addition planeswalker's package is very very strong right now: I don't want the 2th Jace because of cc4 can be clunky.
Have u tested a similar deck?

[JanoschEausH]

Did you guys see the BUG Midrange Lists which were played at the Pro Tour? They looked really interesting but also very greedy (mana-wise).

4x Baleful Strix
2x Dark Confidant
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2x Tarmogoyf
2x True-Name Nemesis

1x Search for Azcanta
1x Sylvan Library

3x Abrupt Decay
1x Fatal Push
4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
4x Force of Will

2x Liliana of the Veil

1x Hymn to Tourach
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Ponder

2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
3x Wasteland

SB:
3x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Sylvan Library
1x Diabolic Edict
3x Fatal Push
2x Flusterstorm
1x Jace, TMS
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Life from the Loam
2x Marsh Casualties

[H]

Did you guys see the BUG Midrange Lists which were played at the Pro Tour? They looked really interesting but also very greedy (mana-wise).

Looks like a strange Delver-less Delver deck than a Midrange one, although I guess it's reasonable to see it the other way around. First look it seemed like our old "Tempo" shell with "Midrange" threats. I'm not sure how well that would work...

[ReinhardtGao]

Did you guys see the BUG Midrange Lists which were played at the Pro Tour? They looked really interesting but also very greedy (mana-wise).

4x Baleful Strix
2x Dark Confidant
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2x Tarmogoyf
2x True-Name Nemesis

1x Search for Azcanta
1x Sylvan Library

3x Abrupt Decay
1x Fatal Push
4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
4x Force of Will

2x Liliana of the Veil

1x Hymn to Tourach
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Ponder

2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
3x Wasteland

SB:
3x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Sylvan Library
1x Diabolic Edict
3x Fatal Push
2x Flusterstorm
1x Jace, TMS
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Life from the Loam
2x Marsh Casualties

I'm interested in why these 2 players used Dark Confident rather than 2 Snapcaster Mage. Dark Confident can improve your card advantage if you keep it alive but not flexible than Snapcaster Mage.

[tobyha]

I'm interested in why these 2 players used Dark Confident rather than 2 Snapcaster Mage. Dark Confident can improve your card advantage if you keep it alive but not flexible than Snapcaster Mage.

Dark Confidant is a proactive threat, which demands a quick answer. snapcaster needs more mana and is used to react. i played bug midrange and delver after the ban and i get the feeling, that being proactive is the better route to victory, too many different types of threats... toffees delver list seems a good way to start (4 tnm). can u answer the delver? can u answer the goyf, what about true-name + disruption (hymn, daze...) ?

[toffee]

Dark Confidant is a proactive threat, which demands a quick answer. snapcaster needs more mana and is used to react. i played bug midrange and delver after the ban and i get the feeling, that being proactive is the better route to victory, too many different types of threats... toffees delver list seems a good way to start (4 tnm). can u answer the delver? can u answer the goyf, what about true-name + disruption (hymn, daze...) ?

Without red (and then without lightning bolt) we must win with creatures....I think that 10-11-12 creatures are too few in BUG Delver. Delver? Goyf? TNN? and last GA...all this creatures are a problem for opponent. In addition, with the reduce of BB casting cost (only 3 MD) this deck works very well....
About Confidant, I think that it can be played in aggro decks and not midrange, but this is my 2cent.
About Snapcaster, the best of configuration is with red spells, because in BUG shell there are only removal and discards.....this isn't the best option...Then, in a control decks could shine.

[jimytuning]

What do you think is this list?

4 Baleful Strix
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Fatal Push
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize

// 15 Sideboard
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sylvan Library
1 Golgari Charm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thoughtseize
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Life from the Loam

[JanoschEausH]

What do you think is this list?

4 Baleful Strix
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Fatal Push
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize

// 15 Sideboard
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sylvan Library
1 Golgari Charm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thoughtseize
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Life from the Loam

Well it's obviously a very slow list. The clock seems to be also very slow. You are very heavy on removal which opens this deck up to any Combo decks. The disruption is heavily discard based which is easy to play around because it's only one single angle of attack. I feel like you might be having problems of grinding games out against the field because your answers are not that diverse. I would add more creatures that provide some aggression (Goyf, TNN or Delve-Creatures). I feel a pure BUG Control Shell is vastly inferior to other Control Decks in the format because BUG is not that flexible like Grixis or Miracles. Both of those decks are better Snapcaster Decks, which seems to be a core component of todays Control Archetypes.

[jimytuning]

Well it's obviously a very slow list. The clock seems to be also very slow. You are very heavy on removal which opens this deck up to any Combo decks. The disruption is heavily discard based which is easy to play around because it's only one single angle of attack. I feel like you might be having problems of grinding games out against the field because your answers are not that diverse. I would add more creatures that provide some aggression (Goyf, TNN or Delve-Creatures). I feel a pure BUG Control Shell is vastly inferior to other Control Decks in the format because BUG is not that flexible like Grixis or Miracles. Both of those decks are better Snapcaster Decks, which seems to be a core component of todays Control Archetypes.


So, they advise me to play more or less. I'm new to BUG lists

[xix]

So, they advise me to play more or less. I'm new to BUG lists

land: 20/21/22 is a choice, I like 20/21 right now

-1 veil + 1 last hope
2-3 hymn main 3 in 75
2-3 decay, I prefer 2
3 push - I like 2 push/ 1 darkblast, or 3 push 1 darkblast

I am fine with the 2 snaps, I consider going to 3 myself sometimes.
add 2 creatures, tombstalker/gurmag/tnn so you can actually win games faster when needed, -1 hymn -1 decay gives you the 2 spots.

sideboard:
2 last hope in 75 is currently accepted as good!

cut the pulse, when its good we have other cards, I would rather play the third decay in sideboard over this card
thoughtseize -> 3rd hymn for me
2-3 surgicals 4 is overkill and not good enough
consider a flusterstorm or 2

if on 2 decay in 75, i would run 2 golgari charm, as it can be used on enchantments as well

bitterblossm is still a good choice even in bug, not just grixis etc.

if white is your biggest issue, consider narrow card like 1-2 dread of night, but its super narrow



Good luck play with a few things and find what works for you

[toffee]

Hi mates, I made 4-0 in my local tournament with this list:

4 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
1 misty rainforest
3 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 bayou
1 island
1 swamp
1 forest

4 baleful strix
4 tarmogoyf
2 leovold, emissary of trest
2 true-name nemesis

2 liliana of the veil
1 liliana, the last hope
1 jace, the mind sculptor

4 force of will
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
3 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
3 fatal push
1 to the slaughter
1 sylvan library

SIDEBOARD
3 surgical extraction
2 thoughtseize
2 flusterstorm
2 golgari charm
1 toxic deluge
1 blue elemental blast
1 life from the loam
1 grafdigger's cage
1 pithing needle
1 liliana, the last hope

DT 2-0
S&S 2-1
Grixis Delver 2-0
Grixis Control 2-1

about my last list (this one (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-Deck-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)&p=1053426&viewfull=1#post1053426)) :
- adding 2TNN: with STP decks and Push+Snapcaster decks I've found Tarmogoyf a "not real wincon", so I decided to add 2 tnn in order to win the game (without DRS I need more wincons). I'm very impressed with it.
- Deluge sideboard: I think that Deluge could be put into sideboard right now, because 3 push, 3 decay, 1 slaughter, 1 hope, 2 veil , 4 strix should be enough.
- Against combo decks, it is a difficult matchup maindeck, but in G2-G3 I can play very well against: 2 fluster, 2 seize, 3 surgical (+1 grafdigger, +1 needle, +1 beb for different matchups)

So, have u tried a similar deck? What do u think about that list?

PS: I don't need 3-4 Noble hierarch in this deck, because in my opinion I don't want to draw Hierarch in the middle-late game..and then, Hierarch doesn't produce black mana -.-...

[tobyha]

Hi mates, I made 4-0 in my local tournament with this list:

4 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
1 misty rainforest
3 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 bayou
1 island
1 swamp
1 forest

4 baleful strix
4 tarmogoyf
2 leovold, emissary of trest
2 true-name nemesis

2 liliana of the veil
1 liliana, the last hope
1 jace, the mind sculptor

4 force of will
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
3 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
3 fatal push
1 to the slaughter
1 sylvan library

SIDEBOARD
3 surgical extraction
2 thoughtseize
2 flusterstorm
2 golgari charm
1 toxic deluge
1 blue elemental blast
1 life from the loam
1 grafdigger's cage
1 pithing needle
1 liliana, the last hope

DT 2-0
S&S 2-1
Grixis Delver 2-0
Grixis Control 2-1

about my last list (this one (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-Deck-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)&p=1053426&viewfull=1#post1053426)) :
- adding 2TNN: with STP decks and Push+Snapcaster decks I've found Tarmogoyf a "not real wincon", so I decided to add 2 tnn in order to win the game (without DRS I need more wincons). I'm very impressed with it.
- Deluge sideboard: I think that Deluge could be put into sideboard right now, because 3 push, 3 decay, 1 slaughter, 1 hope, 2 veil , 4 strix should be enough.
- Against combo decks, it is a difficult matchup maindeck, but in G2-G3 I can play very well against: 2 fluster, 2 seize, 3 surgical (+1 grafdigger, +1 needle, +1 beb for different matchups)

So, have u tried a similar deck? What do u think about that list?

PS: I don't need 3-4 Noble hierarch in this deck, because in my opinion I don't want to draw Hierarch in the middle-late game..and then, Hierarch doesn't produce black mana -.-...

you seem to do really well with your lists (delver or midrange), what do you prefer right now?

this is my current list

2x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
3x Wasteland

3x Baleful Strix
2x Gurmag Angler
2x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3x Snapcaster Mage

2x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
2x Diabolic Edict
4x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will

2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Inquisition of Kozilek => 3rd hymn
4x Ponder
2x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Liliana, the Last Hope

SB:

2x Bitterblossom
2x Dread of Night
2x Flusterstorm
1x Hymn to Tourach => hydroblast
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Nihil Spellbomb => lilianas defeat
1x Pithing Needle
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
1x Maelstrom Pusle

i might aswell play grixis... i had the feeling that the bug list needed more one drops to compensate the tempo loss caused by the drs ban. so i play the full playset of fatal pushes and the 2 maindeck thoughtseizes. i would add another hymn for the inquisition. with 3 snapcaster i would only play 3 surgical extractions as graveyard hate. lilianas defeat seems to be a strong sb card right now. i try to max out the value of the snapcasters after sideboarding. the grixis lists often play 2 pithing needles in the sb, which is a good option too - answers as cheap as possible !

it basically breaks down to:

kolaghans command, bolt, pyroblast vs abrupt decay, leovold, sylvan library and an answer to bitterblossom (abrupt decay) in the control mirror

[toffee]

you seem to do really well with your lists (delver or midrange), what do you prefer right now?

this is my current list

2x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
3x Wasteland

3x Baleful Strix
2x Gurmag Angler
2x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3x Snapcaster Mage

2x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
2x Diabolic Edict
4x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will

2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Inquisition of Kozilek => 3rd hymn
4x Ponder
2x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Liliana, the Last Hope

SB:

2x Bitterblossom
2x Dread of Night
2x Flusterstorm
1x Hymn to Tourach => hydroblast
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Nihil Spellbomb => lilianas defeat
1x Pithing Needle
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
1x Maelstrom Pusle

i might aswell play grixis... i had the feeling that the bug list needed more one drops to compensate the tempo loss caused by the drs ban. so i play the full playset of fatal pushes and the 2 maindeck thoughtseizes. i would add another hymn for the inquisition. with 3 snapcaster i would only play 3 surgical extractions as graveyard hate. lilianas defeat seems to be a strong sb card right now. i try to max out the value of the snapcasters after sideboarding. the grixis lists often play 2 pithing needles in the sb, which is a good option too - answers as cheap as possible !

it basically breaks down to:

kolaghans command, bolt, pyroblast vs abrupt decay, leovold, sylvan library and an answer to bitterblossom (abrupt decay) in the control mirror

I prefer Control because DT and RUG become relevant in the metagame.
About my list I have no idea with the sideboard...I don't know what could be the best configuration.. blossom? vendilion? I don't know.
So, MD I can play well against all matchups. I'm very impressed with it.

[Hanni]

Toxic Deluge is such a nonbo in lists with multiple TNN's... and if you're already built to make BB for Hymn anyway, why not run Marsh Casualties instead?

[toffee]

Toxic Deluge is such a nonbo in lists with multiple TNN's... and if you're already built to make BB for Hymn anyway, why not run Marsh Casualties instead?

probabilistically speaking, there is a little percentage where I have a TNN onto the battlefield and a Toxic Deluge in hand...this one can be a wincon against a lot of matchups, because increases x/1 creatures....so I prefer this one.
On the other hand, marsh casualties can be a replace of Golgari Charm, but I MUST have a enchantment-destroy and a regenerate ability.
if I played 3 tnn, I would most likely remove the deluge for casualties.

I will have a big tournament 1-2 september..so I think that my sideboard should look like this:

3 surgical extraction
2 thoughtseize
2 flusterstorm
1 vendilion clique
1 golgari charm
1 toxic deluge
1 blue elemental blast
1 life from the loam
1 diabolic edict
1 pithing needle
1 liliana, the last hope

[toffee]

tonight I made 3-0-1 in my local tournament with this list:

4 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Gurmag Angler

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
1 To the Slaughter
1 Sylvan Library

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Sideboard
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

d&t 2-0
grixis control 2-1
ub shadow 2-0
ant i.d. for 1th-2th place (I won 2-1, thanks to sideboard).

what do u think about my list?
I think u can see the reasons of my sideboard (for example snapcaster-pierce-fluster-seize).. so I have a question: do u think that we must play at least 3 graveyard hate? what are your thoughts?

[xix]

tonight I made 3-0-1 in my local tournament with this list:

4 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Gurmag Angler

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
1 To the Slaughter
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

what do u think about my list?
I think u can see the reasons of my sideboard (for example snapcaster-pierce-fluster-seize).. so I have a question: do u think that we must play at least 3 graveyard hate? what are your thoughts?

Yes on the 3 gy hate... just can't get away from it right now, you could try to go 2 surgical 1 nihil I still like 3 surgical

I am running 2 leo/4strix/2 gurmag + 2 TNN +3 snap instead of the 4 Tarmo/3 leov - I test the tombstalker in gurmag spot, but its hard to justify the BB. But I don't want to leave snaps out of a control deck.

Firm on 2 jace + 1 last hope , from there I am circling: lotv/2nd last hope/4th snap/Bitterblossom (which has overperformed)

Argument for less creatures and a few more maindeck discards. but that would be trimming snaps/gurmags or tnn. which for me would be -1 TNN for another discard spell like thoughtseize maindeck

Sideboard wise:

I would play 1-2 needle

I like 1of's: (not all 3 necessarily but 1 of them at least)
ensnaring bridge
life from the loam
second library

Sweepers: some combo of: 1-2 spots
marsh
toxic
golgari
with 3 decay main I am lower on golgari charm as it only gives you outs vs eotgr/omni/sneak,random enchantment, and needle can handle sneak/griselbrand/planeswalkers

I am not very high on the sideboard spell pierce's , I would add 2 hydroblast before I would play spell pierce. or even 2 more Edicts.

rest looks reasonable based on your maindeck

[Raffaele191]

hey guys! I took a break from the deck after trying to figure out the best version of the deck without drs (rip), yesterday I played this decklist in the italian nationals side event tournament (70 ppl). The list is the upgraded version of Dean Paul and Petr Sochurek's PT25th one by a guy on mtgo (Kikurek, props to him, you can find it here https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1308267#paper).

2 Inquistion of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Hmyn to Tourach
3 Baleful Strix
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Sylvan Library
1 Search for Azcanta
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland

1 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana, The Last Hope
1 Life from the Loam
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Fatal Push
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Golgari Charm
2 Dread of Night

Deck was a blast, really fun to play. I won with Big eldrazi twice, UW miracles twice, Burn and lost to Death's Shadow (topdeck war) and Dragon Stompy (mulled to 5 aggresively to find answers, didn't get fow, his start was t1 chalice t2 rabblemaster t3 chandra into blood moon). In few matchups I felt the need of basics, hence i'll try to add 1 swamp and 1 island. Hope this helps developing!

[beta]

https://i.imgur.com/e7YxQ1N.png

This is a great card.. might just make bug playable again.

[Thresh84]

https://i.imgur.com/e7yxq1n.png

this is a great card.. Might just make bug playable again.

m[bug]ga!

[meffeo]

https://i.imgur.com/e7YxQ1N.png

This is a great card.. might just make bug playable again.
Looks great but bear in mind that's counterable.

[marshalltj]

This is a great card.. might just make bug playable again.

I think this card has huge implications for BUG in Legacy. Probably a split of AD and this is still right BUT it keeps occurring to me how many cards this card deals with that BUG usually has difficulty with: Jace, Gurmag, Batterskull and any Eldrazi to name a few. I think it's a lot better than Dismember and where I was usually running mainboard Edict I'll probably run this instead as well. The main thing I'm weighing is if I want more of this or more Abrupt decay. Some kind of 3/2 split seems good.

[toffee]

the card whose bug needed.

[marshalltj]

Been really excited for Assassin's Trophy and put together this list to play at my weekly's here and have started to grind competitive leagues with it. No 5-0s yet but consistent 3-2s and a couple 4-1s. Deck feels really good though and I think it will feel even better once we get trophy.

Creatures (13):
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker

Planeswalkers (3):
1 Liliana the Last Hope
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor

Spells (24):
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
1 To the Slaughter

1 Spell Pierce
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will

Lands (20):
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island

Sideboard (15):
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Bitterblossom
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Liliana the Last Hope
1 Toxic Deluge

Since the curve on this is so high I've opted for no Wastelands since I want to get up to three mana as fast as possible for all the heavy hitters. I think this will be mitigated even more when we have trophy so that we can blow up any actual problematic lands. I opted for no Tarmogoyf and instead went with True Names and Tombstalkers as I wanted something resilient to Push since we're pretty light on threats, however Snapcaster + Strix beats have got me there quite a few times.

Once we get Trophy I will probably cut Edict, Dismember and To the Slaughter for 3 of them. It also opens space in the sideboard (this is open to tweak however you want though) since it answers just about everything. Super excited to see how this list goes post RtRtR because it already feels really good.

[JanoschEausH]

Been really excited for Assassin's Trophy and put together this list to play at my weekly's here and have started to grind competitive leagues with it. No 5-0s yet but consistent 3-2s and a couple 4-1s. Deck feels really good though and I think it will feel even better once we get trophy.

Creatures (13):
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker

Planeswalkers (3):
1 Liliana the Last Hope
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor

Spells (24):
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
1 To the Slaughter

1 Spell Pierce
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will

Lands (20):
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island

Sideboard (15):
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Bitterblossom
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Liliana the Last Hope
1 Toxic Deluge

Since the curve on this is so high I've opted for no Wastelands since I want to get up to three mana as fast as possible for all the heavy hitters. I think this will be mitigated even more when we have trophy so that we can blow up any actual problematic lands. I opted for no Tarmogoyf and instead went with True Names and Tombstalkers as I wanted something resilient to Push since we're pretty light on threats, however Snapcaster + Strix beats have got me there quite a few times.

Once we get Trophy I will probably cut Edict, Dismember and To the Slaughter for 3 of them. It also opens space in the sideboard (this is open to tweak however you want though) since it answers just about everything. Super excited to see how this list goes post RtRtR because it already feels really good.

Hey man, interesting list! I have gone back and forth over Snapcaster. In the end, I cut them, because I felt like I had no good targets to flashback. Most of the time I would Sorcery-Cast a Snappy to get more discard going. Maybe this changes with AssTrophy. At the moment I play 4 Tarmogoyfs to have a better Aggro/Midrange plan and also incorporate 3 Wastelands (at 22 lands total). I need to test the resilient control route your deck provides. How did you find your Snappys? How much do you miss Wasteland? Do you feel you were able to close out games against combo decks?

[marshalltj]

Hey man, interesting list! I have gone back and forth over Snapcaster. In the end, I cut them, because I felt like I had no good targets to flashback. Most of the time I would Sorcery-Cast a Snappy to get more discard going. Maybe this changes with AssTrophy. At the moment I play 4 Tarmogoyfs to have a better Aggro/Midrange plan and also incorporate 3 Wastelands (at 22 lands total). I need to test the resilient control route your deck provides. How did you find your Snappys? How much do you miss Wasteland? Do you feel you were able to close out games against combo decks?

Thanks! I was hymn-ing (hah) and hah-ing about going with either Snaps + more spells or Goyf + Dark Confidant and decided to give the Snaps a try. I feel like Goyf fits better in a Delver shell but I could be totally wrong.

The single Spell Pierce has been great with Snap and most commonly I'm flashing back the varied removal (To the Slaughter is actually a house in slow matchups). Postboard you get more cheap options to flashback with Thoughtseize, Flusterstorm and Surigcal as well. Only time I'm snapping at sorcery speed is for Hymn most of the time. I agree with you and think that this option gets even more powerful with recurring Trophy though.

This is anecdotal since the only land-matters matchups I've played have been 4c Loam but the deck has felt fine without Wasteland. Like I mentioned, it'll matter even less once we get trophy.

Clock for the most part has been fine. True-Name + Snap/Strix is pretty fast, Leovold + any other creature is pretty quick as well. Tombstalker on his own is great, and since the deck is packed with so much disruption that even a 4-5 turn clock has felt fine, I haven't died to any of the combo decks I've played so far (ANT and Reanimator) due to the slow clock but I've been sure to disrupt at critical points so that it takes them quite a few turns to rebuild.

[toffee]

Hi all,
I'm testing this list right now and I'd like to know your opinion about this list, because I'll have a big tournament at the end of September.


4 polluted delta
4 verdant catacombs
1 misty rainforest
2 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 bayou
1 island
1 swamp
1 forest

4 baleful strix
4 tarmogoyf
2 leovold, emissary of trest
2 true-name nemesis

2 liliana of the veil
1 liliana, the last hope
1 jace, the mind sculptor

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
3 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize
3 abrupt decay
2 fatal push
1 sylvan library

SIDEBOARD
3 surgical extraction
2 flusterstorm
2 marsh casualties
2 snapcaster mage
1 hymn to tourach
1 fatal push
1 liliana, the last hope
1 leovold, emissary of trest
1 diabolic edict
1 to the slaughter

- Low curve
- Addition of iterations
- TNN over Gurmag (Goyf vs Gurmag not work well)
- No sweeper maindeck (es. Deluge) because of TNN
- Grindy deck
- Sideboard works very well against combo/aggro/control decks
- Doubts SB about Hymn to Tourach or Blue Elemental Blast
- Doubts SB about Leovold or Bitterblossom

[Pdingo]

Hei People!

Like i did in the mkm Hamburg last year, i try to break the Meta again with a new (old) lovely Bug list:

Shardless BUG aka Get your Trophy at 1st Place. (Sry did not found the other Thread)

// 60 Hauptdeck
// 12 Creature
4 Shardless Agent
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf

// 14 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Assassin's Trophy

// 21 Land
4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
1 Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs

// 4 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana, the Last Hope

// 9 Sorcery
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
3 Ancestral Vision


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Artifact
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb

// 5 Enchantment
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void or (3 Surgical and +1 Marsh Casualties)

// 3 Instant
SB: 2 Fatal Push
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap

// 3 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Marsh Casualties

Why is it maybe better than a other BUG Control List?
Simple, it has a better Card Advange Mechanism than a normal BUG list with the Agent also with Vision, also it Synergies a lot better.
I decided to play more Discard to get more Advange for Combo and Control.
Trophy does exactly that, what was bad in the old shard less BUG. No good Higher cmc Removal like PW's, artifacts or Enchantments.
It feels really strong so far, but could not played it in Tournaments yet.

Why the new Lili? It supports the Plan better than the old Lili. It takes Agent, Strix or Goyf back and is a finisher as well against Control decks like Grixis or Miracle. The LOTV is good against miracle but not so great against Grixis. Also i rarely wanna discard a Card.

On Testing:

20 or 21 Lands, maybe -1 Wasteland +1 ponder or library
or a discard for a Ponder or 1 Library.

Will it get back to Tier 1? What do you think?
Write me here

Greets Pascal

[FlinkerMomonga]

I totally forgot my once beloved BUG Control deck despite the spoiler of Assassin's Trophy.
I've read the last couple posts and thought about the 2 big problems of BUG Control post DRS:
1) the greedy manabase with 3 Wasteland
2) enemy planeswalker

My idea was to remove the Wastelands entirely and replace them with basic lands for a very strong manabase.
Assassin's Trophy could be an extremely versatile removal for planeswalker, big stuff or utility lands.

So here is my first list:

Land [21]
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Forest

Creature [14]
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis

Cantrip [8]
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

Counter [4]
4 Force of Will

Removal [7]
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Fatal Push

Discard [3]
3 Hymn to Tourach

Planeswalker [3]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Sideboard [15]
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Marsh Casualties
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize


I'm very hyped about this approach so maybe I will test it on saturday at a local event.
What do you think about the list?

[Kaono]

I'm very hyped about this approach so maybe I will test it on saturday at a local event.
What do you think about the list?

It's good, I've been thinking of something along the exact same lines.

I think with 8 cantrips and all the basic lands 20 land is possible and probably better. I'm not so sure about Tarmogoyf -- it's just outclassed lately, maybe should be Tombstalker or Angler. I think also add a 3rd snapcaster. Do we need Pithing Needle in SB anymore now that we have Trophy? No need for needle, just blow stuff up.

Let us know how the event goes!

[Fgi_88]

yesterday i've played in 40 players legacy tournament with BUG Control. This is the list i've played:

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Fatal Push
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library
2 Counterbalance
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare

Sideboard
1 Unmoored Ego
2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Liliana, The Last Hope
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Dread of Night
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

r1 Draw vs Lands, won a very long g1 and then i've lost g2. No time for g3
r2 win 2-0 vs Shadow, easy win without any trouble
r3 win 2-1 vs Sneak&Show, g1 lost to a mulligan to 5 than won g2 and g3 quite easily
r4 win 2-1 vs Humans, g1 lost 'cause i thought he was playing combo so kept and hand good vs combo. g2 and g3 dread of night plus Liliana ang GG for me
r5 lost 2-1 vs 4c Loam, g1 mulligan to 5 then won g2 but in g3 lost during turn to Nissa Vital Force
r6 win 2-0 vs Miracles, both game won thanks to library plus CB
top 8 lost 2-1 vs Humans (same guy of r4), g1 push-snap-push, trophy and edict were unbeatable for him. g2 lost after a mulligan to 5 with no green mana available(i drew all the trophies...) and g3 again mulligan to 5... was very unlucky

The deck felt great! probably adding a B2B into the side is a good option for the future

[Cpt_Lucifer]

I picked up BUG Control again after bouncing around on different decks post-DRS ban... I used to run something very similar to Dezani's list and kinda picked up from there. Added Goyf's and more Hymns to replace the DRS. Have been playing around with 2 Wasteland for a while and found them rather lackluster so have also cut and run a load more basiscs.

Lands [20]
3 Undergound Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures [11]
4 Baleful Strix
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells [25]
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
3 Fatal Push
2 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Assassin's Trophy
4 Force of Will

Planeswalkers [4]
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard [15]
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Bitterblossom
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge

Have only been play testing, not run through any leagues of FNMs yet.

[Lionheart]

Hey guys! New to the forum. I bought into Legacy around 2 years ago when Reid Duke won GP Louisville with his sweet Sultai True-Name list. I absolutely loved using that list at my LGS, but alas, Deathrite Shaman was banned. Ever since then, I've been playing Sultai Control. I've noticed that it's had a presence as of late in the Legacy Challenge, albeit in very minimal numbers. In the latest Legacy challenge, this list put up a 6-0 finish:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1769889#paper

2 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
4 Baleful Strix
2 Bayou
4 Brainstorm
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
1 Forest
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Island
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Swamp
3 Thief of Sanity
2 Thoughtseize
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge

The most notable aspect of the list is the 3 Thief of Sanity. I've been trying this list, and Thief feels a bit clunky. I do love that it flies over certain things, but I feel like I've lost more games than I have won because of Thief. I much prefer a list similar to Cpt_Lucifer's list posted above. Assassin's Trophy has been wonderful, and I've definitely enjoyed having the 5 basics in my list with no Wastelands. I've also enjoyed Pulse of Murasa out of the sideboard. I consider it our K-Command.

Hopefully more people are on BUG Control still!

[JanoschEausH]

I have also tested Thief of Sanity and I kinda liked him. He is also a bit clunky though. As for BUG Control in general, I played in a 22 people tournament at my LGS yesterday with a fairly stock list.

MD:

4x Strix
1x Leovold
2x Snapcaster Mage
3x Tarmogoyf
2x True-Name Nemesis

1x Abrupt Decay
2x Assassin's Trophy
4x Brainstorm
1x Diabolic Edict
3x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will

20 Lands (3 Basics, 0 Wasteland)

1x Jace, the Mindsculptor
2x LoTV
1x LTLH

3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Ponder
2x Thoughtseize

SB:
1x Grafdiggers Cage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pernicious Deed
2x Flusterstorm
1xSpell Pierce
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Surgical xtraction
1x Hymn to Tourach
2x Marsh Casualties
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Thoughtseize

I had some nice games, but unfortunately had to scoop the last round because I had to catch a train. Until then I played against:

Bant Aluren: 2-1 win
Elves : 1-1 draw
Big Eldrazi: 0-2 lose
BUG Aluren: 1-1 draw

The meta at my LGS is pretty wild as you can see. Even though the results are quite lacking, I felt like I had game against everything. I made some missplays and I think with some tight play I would have been able to make those draws into wins. Even against BIg Eldrazi the deck worked pretty good. I had him hellbent every game by turn 3 through several hymns but he topdecked like a god, so not much to win there even with optimal plays.

What I really liked:
- The manabase: I had to take 2 Mulligans the whole day and was never color- or manascrewed. The manabase felt super solid although I missed having Wastelands available against Eldrazi.
- Snapcaster Mage: There were people arguing that Snappy has no place in BUG today (for example Henry Whalen, who made some nice results in SCG Syracuse). In my experience Snappy has been really good. Flashbacking discard spells or cantrips is alot of value. With Assassin's Trophy there is a "oh shit" button available now, that profits from being flashbackable. I consider going up to 3 Snappys.
- Assassin's Trophy: Man this card is so good in this deck. Opposing Jaces are no threat anymore. Or Sneak Attacks. Or reanimated Fatties. You name it. This card is great, but it feels bad at the start of the game, so I decided to only run 2. Maybe considering 3.

What I didn't like:
- Against some decks I played against, my deck lacked closing power. Against Eldrazi or Aluren I was desperatly searching for a clock or a lock, so I could capitalize on the damage my Hyms caused. I don't want to go up with Tarmogoyfs, because against some decks they don't do enough. At the moment i'm considering going up in Jaces.
- TNN: This card was a roadblock sometimes but felt generally too slow (maybe because he was bad against the decks I played tho)
- LOTV: Card was good and bad at the same time. I sometimes found myself in a spot where I HAD to plus Lilly but didn't want to discard anaything. Will go down to 1.
- The sideboard: Was a hot mess. Not really tuned. Dunno what to do here. Thinking about Pulse of Murasa and maybe one less mass-removal.

But in the end I think the deck delivered. It felt really refreshing to play something that isn't tier 1 but has game nontheless and also features some "rogue" factor.

[lavafrogg]

So I have been thinking about the Snow Pile decks and their recent development around Wren and card that kind of seems more important to me is the Astrolabe and not the Wren(Wren is an absurd card).

Looking at what the Astrolabe is doing is allowing decks to play more basics and negate color choices due to the addition of constant filtering. With superior filtering I am developing a list that doesn’t splash for all of the red cards but plans on going double black into UBG.

Basically, Hymn into Leovold is very possible off of basics now.

Here is the current list that I am building.

Dudes 11
3 Snapcaster mage
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Plague Engineer
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

Engine 11
4 Arcum’s Astrolabe
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

Spells 15
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtsieze

Planeswalkers 3
2 Liliana the Last Hope
1 Narset Parter of Veils

Lands 20
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Snow Covered Island
1 Snow Covered Swamp
1 Snow Covered Forest

Sideboard
1 Veil of Summer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Sylvan Library
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Damping Sphere
1 Pithing Needle
1 Force of Negation
1 Force of Vigor
1 To the Slaughter
1 Liliana’s Triumph
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Plauge Engineer

Abrupt Decay and fatal push are very good right now and Hymn into Leo seems good always.

Thoughts?

[lavafrogg]

Dudes 12
3 Snapcaster mage
4 Baleful Strix
1 Plague Engineer
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Gurmag Angler

Engine 11
4 Arcum’s Astrolabe
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

Spells 17
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Fatal Push
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize

Lands 20
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Snow Covered Island
1 Snow Covered Swamp
1 Snow Covered Forest

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Plague Engineer
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Damping Sphere
1 Pithing Needle
1 Force of Negation
1 Force of Vigor
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Liliana the Last Hope
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Thoughtseize

Update

Took out goyfs scooze and planeswalkers. Added +2 fatal push +4 Baleful Strix and +2 Gurmag Angler.

New plan is to disrupt them and just beat them to death with shitheads +Angler.

I went 1-2 on the first attempt. Lost to Hogaak and Canadian Delver beat lands.

In the Delver matchup, in 3 games, I never saw a push or decay....

Hogaak is pretty miserable game 1 and game 2 I mulled to five and didn’t see surgical or cage.

[meite]

With 4 Astrolabes, I suppose you could move even more to snow-basics and play Ice-Fang Coatl, Dead of Winter and Back to Basics.

Here is one league with such deck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF_16LplqZo

[thefreakaccident]

Is the astrolabe really good enough to be played?

[H]

Is the astrolabe really good enough to be played?

I think it has shown it is "Playable" but the jury would still be out as to "exactly how competitive" it is.

It has some results to show for itself. (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck_searches/create?utf8=%E2%9C%93&deck_search%5Bname%5D=&deck_search%5Bformat%5D=legacy&deck_search%5Btypes%5D%5B%5D=&deck_search%5Btypes%5D%5B%5D=tournament&deck_search%5Bplayer%5D=&deck_search%5Bdate_range%5D=07%2F01%2F2019+-+08%2F15%2F2019&deck_search%5Bdeck_search_card_filters_attributes%5D%5B0%5D%5Bcard%5D=Arcum%27s+Astrolabe&deck_search%5Bdeck_search_card_filters_attributes%5D%5B0%5D%5Bquantity%5D=1&deck_search%5Bdeck_search_card_filters_attributes%5D%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=maindeck&deck_search%5Bdeck_search_card_filters_attributes%5D%5B1%5D%5Bcard%5D=&deck_search%5Bdeck_search_card_filters_attributes%5D%5B1%5D%5Bquantity%5D=1&deck_search%5Bdeck_search_card_filters_attributes%5D%5B1%5D%5Btype%5D=maindeck&deck_search%5Bdeck_search_card_filters_attributes%5D%5B2%5D%5Bcard%5D=&deck_search%5Bdeck_search_card_filters_attributes%5D%5B2%5D%5Bquantity%5D=1&deck_search%5Bdeck_search_card_filters_attributes%5D%5B2%5D%5Btype%5D=maindeck&counter=3&commit=Search) Still, none of those point to some "Tier 1" status, of course.

[lavafrogg]

Is the astrolabe really good enough to be played?

It cantrips and fixes your mana for the rest of the game. Going BB into Leovold off of a Wasteland is pretty good. Also lessens the effect of Wasteland and port and fetching for basics means you have access to every color.

[H]

Ancient thread, but the closest we have to something for this:

7-1 list by fishdruggery (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2870336):

3 Oko, Thief of Crowns

1 Brazen Borrower
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Gilded Goose
4 Ice-Fang Coatl
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Plague Engineer
1 Questing Beast
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will

1 Arcum's Astrolabe
1 Sylvan Library

1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Fatal Push
1 Flusterstorm
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Trinisphere
2 Veil of Summer

BUG Zenith Oko seems to now be the BUG midrange of choice.