[Deck] Dredge

[Ghiwo]

What about Pithing Needle to combat DRS g2? It could be also good in fighting other cards, like Scavenging Ooze et similia.. Sadly I can't find space for it in my board, and I think Firestorm is simply better...

[HokusSchmokus]

So I made the mistake of watching Dredge videos on youtube. Some of the players of this deck are so bad it makes me want to tear my hair out... People who don't maintain GY order, or sacrifice Ichorid to Cabal Therapy when they have Narcomoeba they can sacrifice, and those are some of the more simple stupidities I have seen.

Did you see the Japanese Nationals thing? That was hard to watch.

Also, I'm back, Ladies! Yay for the annoying german!

I sold all my legacy card pool so I am not really actively dredging anymore but once in a while I think I will borrow my friend's japo-foiled out Dredge pool.Just to make some lives miserable...I miss my poor dredge deck and all my trusted therapies, I even shed a tear when I sold it but it couldn't be helped :/

Meh maybe one day once again...


Sooooo how are things going in this Deathrite Meta? I would imagine quite ok, but I saw no really big results the last month or so.
The meta is kinda similar to when I played 4 Firestorm maindeck and it was a fun time :D

[Michael Keller]

What about Pithing Needle to combat DRS g2? It could be also good in fighting other cards, like Scavenging Ooze et similia.. Sadly I can't find space for it in my board, and I think Firestorm is simply better...

I think Pithing Needle is a great fill for that slot post-board. No one is bringing in artifact hate against you and shutting off their activated hate for the rest of the game seems good. Also, Needle is more diverse and less situational in that respect.

[Ghiwo]

I think Pithing Needle is a great fill for that slot post-board. No one is bringing in artifact hate against you and shutting off their activated hate for the rest of the game seems good. Also, Needle is more diverse and less situational in that respect.

Thanks Hollywood for your support!
So, definitely I'll give Pithing Needle a chance. But I wonder how can I make room for it in my board, which is:

4 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim
3 Tarnished Citadel
2 Ashen Ghoul
2 Memory's Journey

I'll try doing -2 Ghoul, -2 Journey, +4 Pithing Needle.
Journey was really good in the Miracle match-up, but Needle can do the same work naming Top, in order to protect me from a Terminus during my own turn. Maybe I'll suffer Surgical effects, that are quite played in Jund and BUG as a 2 of in the board, but shutting completely down DRS is definitely worth it.

I'll try this configuration, as far as I don't want to play without Firestorms, they help a lot in a bunch of different match ups I think

[Lt. Quattro]

Watching dredge on camera at star city games hurts. The opponent is playing some sort of U/W deck with a sensei's diving top in play so what move should you make next?

Cabal therapy him and don't name the rest in peace he has in hand.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Yeah, that was pretty ugly. It may have been the pressure, and he blanked on what to name. I know that guy (I apologize for forgetting his name) has had success in the past, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt this time. Although, I don't think his list was close to optimal. Hopefully he feels the same way after he was forced to Dredge 2.

Actually, I just remembered the commentators saying how the two playing knew each other. Yeah, there's no excuse for not naming RiP.

[lithiux]

One bad Dredge player on camera followed up by another one wearing a fedora. A really, really tough weekend for Dredge players everywhere this weekend.

[Juicy Karaage]

Thanks Hollywood for your support!
So, definitely I'll give Pithing Needle a chance. But I wonder how can I make room for it in my board, which is:

4 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim
3 Tarnished Citadel
2 Ashen Ghoul
2 Memory's Journey

I'll try doing -2 Ghoul, -2 Journey, +4 Pithing Needle.
Journey was really good in the Miracle match-up, but Needle can do the same work naming Top, in order to protect me from a Terminus during my own turn. Maybe I'll suffer Surgical effects, that are quite played in Jund and BUG as a 2 of in the board, but shutting completely down DRS is definitely worth it.

I'll try this configuration, as far as I don't want to play without Firestorms, they help a lot in a bunch of different match ups I think

Just a remainder, while Pithing Needle is a versatile answer to most things, Jund and BUG have Abrupt Decay, they'll eventually destroy the needle

[Vandalize]

Just a remainder, while Pithing Needle is a versatile answer to most things, Jund and BUG have Abrupt Decay, they'll eventually destroy the needle

And you'll eventually win before they're able to do so.

[Que]

One bad Dredge player on camera followed up by another one wearing a fedora. A really, really tough weekend for Dredge players everywhere this weekend.

So 4 Top 8 SCG finishes and 7 top 16 finishes in total makes you a bad dredge player (Not including other Top 8s and 16s without drege)? :/


@igri, LT. I was there live. The rest and Peace was found after a top activation. When Jason Therapy'd Jack he did in fact Call RIP. He missed obviously and Jack drew it off the top and played it...
Of course I can be completely high and rewatch the stream to make sure that was the case. This was game 1. I didn't stick around for the rest of it. lol

[TerribleTim68]

I just want to say this, take it for what it's worth -
Far too often we jump to conclusions about situations we don't know the whole facts about. This seems like a prime example of that. Instead of critisizing someone's play when we weren't standing next to them ot hear what they said first hand, let's stick to helping each other build better decklists and play tighter. I think we can all agree that the proper choice there was RiP. Ok, so he bricked and the guy peeled it off the top right after that. That's teh way this game goes some times. But I can promise you, the next time I'm in that situation, I'll be naming RiP because of what I learned right there. Let's focus on that simple fact and leave out the "crappy player" part until we have ALL the facts first hand, shall we? :cool:

[IrishLegend]

This thread has been quiet for a little while. I've been lurking this thread for sometime now and was hoping I could get your guys opinion on a deck I plan on taking into a tournament this weekend with an unknown meta. This is what I have been goldfishing/ testing with. I really like the Dread Return/ Flayer of the Hatebound in the deck, and like the idea of the ashen ghouls in the sideboard. Like I said I would like your guys opinions about the deck and hear you thoughts. Is it even a smart idea to take dredge into an unknown meta?

Main Deck List
13 LANDS
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel

22 CREATURES
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
3 Golgari Thug
2 Ichorid
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

17 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
4 Careful Study

8 OTHER SPELLS
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below

SIDEBOARD
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Ichorid
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Land
4 Natures Claim
4 Leyline of the Void

Sideboard Plan
Ghoul Plan:
OUT
4 Lions Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
IN
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Ichorid

Nature Claim Plan:
OUT
4 Lion Eye Diamond
1 Putrid Imp
1 Faithless Looting
IN
4 Nature Claim
2 Tarnished Citadel

Leyline of the Void Plan:
OUT
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Putrid Imp
1 Faithless Looting
1 Cabal Therapy
IN
4 Leyline of the Void

Natures Claim / Leyline of the Void Plan
OUT
4 Lion Eye Diamond
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Golgari Thug
1 Putrid Imp
1 Faithless Looting
1 Breakthrough
IN
4 Natures Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Tarnished Citadel

[TerribleTim68]

. . . Is it even a smart idea to take dredge into an unknown meta?. . .

I think it can be. If you play solid you just might come out up top, you do have the advantage of catching unprepared players off guard. The big advantage is dodging all that control crap with a deck that doesn't interact so much. Nothing wrong with that plan. You just have to accept that there will be graveyard hate of some sort and figure out how to play around it on the fly. But yea, it can work just fine.

[feline]

This thread has been quiet for a little while. I've been lurking this thread for sometime now and was hoping I could get your guys opinion on a deck I plan on taking into a tournament this weekend with an unknown meta.

taking into a tournament this weekend with an unknown meta.
taking into a tournament this weekend with an unknown meta.
taking into a tournament this weekend with an unknown meta.

That is when Dredge is so much fun, they won't see it coming that 1st time and be like "OH CRAP ARE YOU PLAYING DREDGE!" (sorry Tim, I'll just never forget it, at least I can laugh at myself.)

Anyhow, yes it is smart to take dredge to an unknown meta, because of just that, you'll win games because people will not see it coming and some will even be unprepared. If the unknown meta turns out to be graveyard hate light, then you'll cause a metagame shift and people will be like "looks like its time to start packing the graveyard hate again for our local store"

When I had dredge, the times I enjoyed playing it most was when it was least expected, and if I played at a "new unknown metagame" constantly, I would have kept my dredge deck, but that requires going to a "new local game store" every weekend and, eventually you run out of new local stores.

[FTW]

I've been trying out the new lists and I'm not a fan. My understanding is that Dredge HAS to win game 1 to be competitive. We concoct elaborate sideboard strategies to dodge hate, but our lives are so much easier if we can run away with the pre-board match before the hate comes in. That's when our deck is most efficient and when the opponent has the fewest tools to interact with our gameplan. I realize maindeck DRS changes this somewhat, but DRS is still slow and we can try to dodge it with sheer speed. Anyway, this is how I've always played Dredge - to maximize the chance of a game 1 win. I don't see how the new builds help with that.

In particular:
2 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Griselbrand
0 Flamekin Zealot
0 Sphinx of Lost Truths

Before the days of Flayer, I would always play with 3 Dread Return + 1 Zealot + 1-2 Sphinx maindeck. What this meant is that if you ever "combo off" with a Breakthrough or Faithless Looting, you are pretty much guaranteed to hit gas and can Dread Return into more draw/discard until you mill most of your library and can Zealot FTW. Those builds were set up so if you can ever dredge 18+ cards in one turn, then you usually just hit enough gas to chain off and outright win immediately. I find that isn't so with the newer builds. I can Looting + LED + flashback Looting and dredge 24 and then have to pass the turn and wait for Ichorids/Ghouls to come online.

Sure, you set up Ichorids a few turns down the road and might be able to Cabal Therapy once or twice, playing for some incremental advantage. But where is the explosiveness?

I like the Flayer kill. It dodges the combat step, Elephant Grass and friends, and so much more. The problem is, for it to be a 1-turn kill, you need double Dread Return: Return on Flayer and then Return on a Grave-Troll to deal the rest. With only 2 Dread Returns in the deck, this is not easy. It is much lower probability to see both Dread Returns and Flayer than it was in the old build to see 1 of 3 Returns and either a Flamekin or Sphinx. That means comboing off in one turn is less consistent. And you have no way to get gas. If you are trying to combo off, there is 0 point in Dread Returning Griselbrand to dredge the rest of your deck because then you are guaranteed to only have 1 Dread Return left and cannot possibly win this turn. I guess you can just make Zombies and leave up Griselbrand and threaten a lethal attack, but that just seems too open to tampering. The Flamekin+Sphinx builds let you chain and close the game off that very turn.

So how do you guys play around that and make the Flayer version work for you? Do you just play slower, incremental games and avoid the "flip library over. confuse opponent. win" aspect? Do you avoid "comboing out" and just deal slow damage with zombies and Ichorid until Flayer on its own is lethal? Do you increase the number of Dread Returns?

[Final Fortune]

I've been trying out the new lists and I'm not a fan. My understanding is that Dredge HAS to win game 1 to be competitive. We concoct elaborate sideboard strategies to dodge hate, but our lives are so much easier if we can run away with the pre-board match before the hate comes in. That's when our deck is most efficient and when the opponent has the fewest tools to interact with our gameplan. I realize maindeck DRS changes this somewhat, but DRS is still slow and we can try to dodge it with sheer speed. Anyway, this is how I've always played Dredge - to maximize the chance of a game 1 win. I don't see how the new builds help with that.

In particular:
2 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Griselbrand
0 Flamekin Zealot
0 Sphinx of Lost Truths

Before the days of Flayer, I would always play with 3 Dread Return + 1 Zealot + 1-2 Sphinx maindeck. What this meant is that if you ever "combo off" with a Breakthrough or Faithless Looting, you are pretty much guaranteed to hit gas and can Dread Return into more draw/discard until you mill most of your library and can Zealot FTW. Those builds were set up so if you can ever dredge 18+ cards in one turn, then you usually just hit enough gas to chain off and outright win immediately. I find that isn't so with the newer builds. I can Looting + LED + flashback Looting and dredge 24 and then have to pass the turn and wait for Ichorids/Ghouls to come online.

Sure, you set up Ichorids a few turns down the road and might be able to Cabal Therapy once or twice, playing for some incremental advantage. But where is the explosiveness?

I like the Flayer kill. It dodges the combat step, Elephant Grass and friends, and so much more. The problem is, for it to be a 1-turn kill, you need double Dread Return: Return on Flayer and then Return on a Grave-Troll to deal the rest. With only 2 Dread Returns in the deck, this is not easy. It is much lower probability to see both Dread Returns and Flayer than it was in the old build to see 1 of 3 Returns and either a Flamekin or Sphinx. That means comboing off in one turn is less consistent. And you have no way to get gas. If you are trying to combo off, there is 0 point in Dread Returning Griselbrand to dredge the rest of your deck because then you are guaranteed to only have 1 Dread Return left and cannot possibly win this turn. I guess you can just make Zombies and leave up Griselbrand and threaten a lethal attack, but that just seems too open to tampering. The Flamekin+Sphinx builds let you chain and close the game off that very turn.

So how do you guys play around that and make the Flayer version work for you? Do you just play slower, incremental games and avoid the "flip library over. confuse opponent. win" aspect? Do you avoid "comboing out" and just deal slow damage with zombies and Ichorid until Flayer on its own is lethal? Do you increase the number of Dread Returns?

I don't think Dread Return packages are the way to deal with a metagame defined by Deathrite Shamans and to a lesser extent MD RIPs, and while we can't really change our deck in any way to deal with MD RIPs, Firestorm seems ridiculously good in the current metagame

[FTW]

I don't think Dread Return packages are the way to deal with a metagame defined by Deathrite Shamans and to a lesser extent MD RIPs, and while we can't really change our deck in any way to deal with MD RIPs, Firestorm seems ridiculously good in the current metagame

This makes sense. I just find without the package I end up not winning as many game 1s against random.dec. I get that it stops us from getting blown out by DRS as much, but shouldn't we be trying to win our other matches too? Do you find the lack of explosive win affects your other matches? How do you deal with it? Could Firestorm blowing out their board or the Ghoul plan be an answer?

Yeah, I'm loving 4 Firestorm in the SB. Would you run them main?

[igri_is_a_bk]

This makes sense. I just find without the package I end up not winning as many game 1s against random.dec.

This is just because you haven't had the experience yet. There are still some decisions about combat that dredge players regularly mess up. Being intimately familiar with your deck is probably the biggest strength you can have in a legacy tournament. I played this deck for 3 years straight, as an example, and it paid off. You'll learn what to name with Therapy, when to block with whom, how to play around hate, etc.


Yeah, I'm loving 4 Firestorm in the SB. Would you run them main?

I understand Firestorm kills DRS, but siding those in means you side out LED. You cannot have LED and Firestorm in the same 60, to answer your question about running them in the main. My reservation about playing Firestorm at all is that being proactive with LED will win you more games than Firestorm will prevent you from losing. DRS is handled by an LED start, or any hand with Study/Looting/Pimp and two dredgers. Hell, turn one Breakthrough for x=0 can beat DRS.

[Dravus Mallinard]

Hello Again,

I would like to make an small report about the Legacy side tournament that had occured during the last GP Rio de janeiro.

The prize of this tournament was nothing more nothing less than 1 blue mox + 2 boxes of gatecrash to the first place, as well as other things till position 16th.

I didnt study the current metagame that much, and I decided to play my LED Dredge (with Flayer pack) because I like to play with it.

The matches were as following:
round 1: vs. Omni & Show (2 - 0)
round 2: vs. RIP Miracle (2 - 1) ... I lost G1, due to a turn 2 RIP
round 3: vs. BUG (1 - 2) ... I played wrong in G2. I could have removed his Jitte with therapy and I misscalculated the impact of this decision, than jitte dominated the board.
round 4: vs. The Rock (2 - 0) ... Even his early DRS couldnt stop my fast hand in both games.
round 5: vs. Dragon Stompy (2 - 0) ... firs time I play agains this deck, but it seems to be an easy game
round 6: vs. RIP Miracle (1 - 2) ... RIP forced me to play really slow (ataking with narcomoebas and imps just)... i could win one of the games, but even pos-SB this is really an unfair match-up.

Summary of my fellings:
Life is not that easy as in the past, but we can fight deathrite shaman. The increase of RIP Miracles in the metagame is our main disadvantage. I recognize I didnt prepare my SB well for those matches (Nature's Clain/Chain of Vapor are useless while they have Counterbalance on the table). I accept sugestions about SB and deck improvements to deal with this specific opponent.

I won one round agains this deck and I can say I was very very luck...

[02Drop]

I'm mainly a Goblins player, but looking for a second deck just for variety. After turning the little green men sideways for three years, I'm itching for a change. Dredge is one of the decks I'm considering currently. I've read the excellent primer in the first page here and I think I already have a better understanding of the deck than I did when I was merely goldfishing the deck earlier. I'm fairly confident in my ability to at least competently goldfish the deck, but of course games 2 and 3 are where the challenge can lie. Is there a strong primer or article that offers some very in-depth sideboard advice? What should be in one's sideboard and what cards to bring in/out along with some reasoning? It's not like Goblins, where it can be clearcut as boarding out AEther Vial against non-blue decks most of the time. Almost every card feels like a key piece in Dredge and as such, I'm unsure how to board wisely.

Thanks in advance

[Megadeus]

round 6: vs. RIP Miracle (1 - 2) ... RIP forced me to play really slow (ataking with narcomoebas and imps just)... i could win one of the games, but even pos-SB this is really an unfair match-up.
I find this a hilarious quote. When the dredge player says other things are un fair! Lol.

[Anusien]

While maindeck Dread Returns are pretty terrible, Deathrite Shaman isn't really a reason to fear them. If you're ever getting to the point where you're ready to flashback Dread Return and they are leaving Deathrite Shaman untapped rather than trying to remove relevant cards, you can just kill them.

[Beatusnox]

While maindeck Dread Returns are pretty terrible, Deathrite Shaman isn't really a reason to fear them. If you're ever getting to the point where you're ready to flashback Dread Return and they are leaving Deathrite Shaman untapped rather than trying to remove relevant cards, you can just kill them.

I disagree wholeheartedly about dread return being terrible in the maindeck. It has allowed me to win game ones I had no right winning simply because of what it enables. With the rise in maindeck hate they aren't as great, in many of the situations I run into locally I still greatly prefer having the out rather than just scoop the game.

[Anusien]

Sorry, that should say maindeck Dread Return targets. Having a Dread Return or two is sweet.

[Forgotten]

So it has been a while since I have been on here and I have switched from LED dredge to manaless dredge due to lack of LEDs anymore lol. I was wondering if anyone could help me tailor my sideboard. Right now I have the main sideboard that is on the primer, but not sure if these are the cards I need in my current metagame. The guys in the local store are running BUG, Maverick, Canadian Thresh, and Affinity with a Pox or Red Burn or two mixed in every other week. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Mindlash]

So it has been a while since I have been on here and I have switched from LED dredge to manaless dredge due to lack of LEDs anymore lol. I was wondering if anyone could help me tailor my sideboard. Right now I have the main sideboard that is on the primer, but not sure if these are the cards I need in my current metagame. The guys in the local store are running BUG, Maverick, Canadian Thresh, and Affinity with a Pox or Red Burn or two mixed in every other week. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

If you need a sideboard for Manaless Dredge, I would recommend the Manaless Ichorid Primer in the Established Section of this Board. This Thread mainly deals with LED Dredge.

It might also help to get look at your decklist and to hear something about your meta.

Manaless Dredge might want some SB cards against Stormcombo and Tinfins right now, because those are faster then the manaless version of Dredge. Some good choices might be Chancellor of Annex, Fairie Macabre and Mindbreak Trap. The only hate you need to board for are mostly Leyline, Cage and RiP which can be solved through Reverent Silence or Nature's Claim.

LED Dregde on the other hand is faster and can battle most combos without help from the Board. You might use Leyline of the Void here to get an edge in the mirror and battle Reanimator or the rising TinFins. Again this depends on your meta. Other good choices for LED Dredge are Nature's Claim to battle most permanent hate und Ashen Ghoul to battle Extractions. This is most of the time supported by additional lands.

Hope this helps.

Greetings Chris

Edit: Oh I should learn to read...you posted your meta :) I will re-read your post and suggest sb cards soon. I am at work right now. So it might take some minutes :-)

Edit2: You might want to use the following cards against these decks:

BUG:

Depends on their SB. In my area they mostly rely on Maindeck Shamans. LED Dredge should be easily able to race them. Manaless should be fine with maindeck removal depending on your list. Chancellor might help to slow down the shaman too.

Common Hate: Deathrite Shaman

Maverick:

LED Drede I board nothing here either. All of Mavericks hate is just to slow to beat Dredge. Manaless might want to use Chancellor here too to delay them. If you have Dryad Arbor you could use it to pay for Thalia. Otherwise you have to overwhelm them with Zombies and reccuring threats.

Common Hate: Ooze, Bojuka Bog, (Thalia - stops us from using DR)

Canadian Thresh: I board in Ashen Ghouls with LED Dredge against SE or Grudge against Crypt and nothing with Manaless Dredge. Manaless Dredge can withstand most of their hate on their own.

Common Hate: Tormod's Crypt and Surgical Extraction

Affinity: Never seen this in a long while. I guess they would use Cage?! So you would need Nature's Claim. Bridges still work through Cage. I guess with Manaless I will just die to them because I only have Reverent Silence, but I guess it's ok. Affinity is not a deck here.

Common Hate: Cage

Pox: I never played against Pox. I would expect Leylines or Surgical here so your need Reverent Silence with Manaless and Ghouls or Claims with LED Dredge.

Common Hate: no idea

Red Burn: I would not board here anything either with both versions. Burn will play Fairies or things like Crypt I think. Depending on you Manaless Decklist you might want to switch your creature removal with the chancellor.

Common Hate: Fairy, Crypt

When I am 1:0 and have no idea what to expect I board nothing in G2 and try to race them. G3 you can board accordingly to their hate.
I use the Quadlaserlist from the OT -1 Tarnished Citadel +1 Undiscovered Paradise and the Manaless Dredge Version from Hollywoods latest article about manaless on Jupiter Games. I am thinking about using Chancellor maindeck again though.

Greetings Chris

[Final Fortune]

This is just because you haven't had the experience yet. There are still some decisions about combat that dredge players regularly mess up. Being intimately familiar with your deck is probably the biggest strength you can have in a legacy tournament. I played this deck for 3 years straight, as an example, and it paid off. You'll learn what to name with Therapy, when to block with whom, how to play around hate, etc.



I understand Firestorm kills DRS, but siding those in means you side out LED. You cannot have LED and Firestorm in the same 60, to answer your question about running them in the main. My reservation about playing Firestorm at all is that being proactive with LED will win you more games than Firestorm will prevent you from losing. DRS is handled by an LED start, or any hand with Study/Looting/Pimp and two dredgers. Hell, turn one Breakthrough for x=0 can beat DRS.

The issue I have with that argument is Firestorm isn't a linear answer to Death right shaman, it's a one mana Wrath of God and an outlet for your hand that savages fair decks as well.

[Kelm]

I've been running this pretty standard Bloodghast list locally lately with great succes. Before you go OMFGBBQ NO BREAKTHROUGH??!!!?! please take a moment to read my post.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Bloodghast

4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise

SB
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
4 Leyline of the Void

Pre-board im able to grind out most of my opponents with recurring Bloodghasts and Ichorids (and a couple zombies, i don't need a gigantic zombie army with Bloodghasts, and i'm also not dependant on having BFB in the GY). It's simply too much pressure in most matchups, and you aren't as dependant on resolving that turn 1 spell. I haven't had the same trouble with Deathrite Shaman removing that one key spell with this list. It's just too much for him to remove

The sideboard allows you to go all-in on the Speed-kills plan in the Reanimator/TES matchup. You board out some Ichorids and Bloodghasts and are good to go

Against slow control decks LED's go out for a variation of artifact/enchantment removal.

Elesh Norn is GG in the random Goblin/Elves matchup. (and mirror if you feel for it)

Leylines are going in and out of my SB currently. They can easily be replaced with stuff like Firestorm and whatever you feel like.

Any thoughts on it?

I know it's not as fast and usualliy wins a couple turns later than DR/Breakthrough lists, but i find it to be way more consistent and i win many more games were my dredges are so-so (you know, go all in and empty your library, but can't hit the last combo piece)

[Anusien]

If you have no Breakthrough and no Dread Return, there is no excuse to not have all 12 Dredgers. That's just embarrassing.

[indefinite.soul]

Pox: I never played against Pox. I would expect Leylines or Surgical here so your need Reverent Silence with Manaless and Ghouls or Claims with LED Dredge.

Common Hate: no idea


Planar Void. Boy, that hurts...



If you have no Breakthrough and no Dread Return, there is no excuse to not have all 12 Dredgers. That's just embarrassing.

And the 4th Ichorid, I'd say...

But, if you are getting nice results... Who am I, after all? xD

[Mindlash]

Planar Void. Boy, that hurts...

Well ok. Does not change anything in the sb for us.



And the 4th Ichorid, I'd say...
But, if you are getting nice results... Who am I, after all? xD

4th Ichorid over 4th Bloodghast all night long. Ichorid beats harder, dies on his own and is hasted all the time. Bloodghast needs an additional sac outlet to be useful due to its inability to block and is only hasted when it's game over anyways. You need to have Undiscovered Paradise in the starting seven otherwise the Ghasts are just Ichorid fodder. Keeping a land in hand will deny your LEDs. Dakmor Salvage may be an option but I don't think it's worth it.

I totally see their worth in combination with Dread Return and perhaps Sun Titan to bring back a land and the Ghasts return. But I think this might be only really useful in Vintage with Bazaar of Bagdad available.

In Legacy I would max out Ichorid first. He just grinds better. If more reccurring threats are needed: Ashen Ghoul + lands in lists without DR and Nether Shadow in lists with DR.

But then again...I never tested Ghasts in LED Dredge. I only used them some games in Vintage and Manaless Dredge and only liked them in the above mentioned manner. And I am not even using them in Vintage anymore...

[igri_is_a_bk]

The issue I have with that argument is Firestorm isn't a linear answer to Death right shaman, it's a one mana Wrath of God and an outlet for your hand that savages fair decks as well.

The truly fair decks are bringing in hate like Crypt or RiP or whatever, because they can't beat dredge without those tools. With that in mind, I can't look at Firestorm as anything other than an overcompensation.

Can you think of a more devastating use for Firestorm than Elves? That's a great example in my opinion and it illustrates my point. Under no circumstances have I ever needed Firestorm against Elves. I've brought in a full play set for games two/three in the past, but it made no difference. I either drew it and wrecked them in an embarrassing fashion or I didn't draw it and I simply wrecked them. Either way, it's an excellent match up, and I could have beat them even if those four cards were Darksteel Relic. That's usually true of anything you're killing with Firestorm. There are a couple exceptions like Thalia or Lavamancer, but creature strategies typically fall prey to us, and I would rather handle those guys with Darkblast.

Maybe if hatebear.dec comes back then Firestorm will have a place in my 75.

I put some Leylines back in my board due to TinFins. It's definitely the most hyped deck right now and reanimator strategies were difficult for us before they granted their creatures haste and finished with a storm kill.

[slave]

4th Ichorid over 4th Bloodghast all night long. Ichorid beats harder, dies on his own and is hasted all the time. Bloodghast needs an additional sac outlet to be useful. ..... Dakmor Salvage may be an option but I don't think it's worth it.

I totally see their worth in combination with Dread Return. ..... and Nether Shadow in lists with DR.

Bloodghast isn't good enough for LED-Dredge unless you're running 4x Dread Return and lots of Griselbrand.
Otherwise, Icky is best due to it working with Bridges much better.

Manaless dredge has a version that works well with Dakmor & Ghasts, but that's Manaless - it aims almost entirely to get a Dread return'd Griselbrand into play due to a lack of LED/Faithless etc. acceleration.
It's aim is to get 3 creatures into play. I would think LED-Dredge has enough acceleration not to need this tech, so it can afford to drop Ghast altogether.

[Beatusnox]

Honestly a lot of the argument over what cards should be main decked in what version of the deck and such are getting kind of funny. I honestly feel the best route to go is make a binder and fill it full of the 'Good stuffs' that can work in the deck and change your 75 depending on what did well at the last 2-3 high profile events. As for Ghast vs Ichorid, I feel right now that Ichorid is much better, but not too long ago before DRS, Extirpate/Surgical were huge and I played 2-3 Ichorid, 2-3 Ghast, 1-2 Shadow simply to have recursive diversity. It is all relative, I do believe though, that when you post a list in this thread, a basic rundown of the meta you play in would be nice to suggestions can be given accordingly.

[Anusien]

Until people are maindecking Extirpate and Surgical Extraction, you shouldn't dilute your maindeck to answer sideboard cards.

[Vandalize]

I put some Leylines back in my board due to TinFins. It's definitely the most hyped deck right now and reanimator strategies were difficult for us before they granted their creatures haste and finished with a storm kill.

Yeah, I think Leyline of the Void needs to fit in the sideboard right now. TinFins kinda sums the nightmare for Dredge, Reanimator and Storm in the same deck. Also, Firestorm isn't needed maindeck. It's sideboard, because it's pretty much useless in many matchups.

This is my latest list:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
1 Griselbrand
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

3 Putrid Imp has been working just fine. I never run out of Ichorid food, so it has not been a problem. Cut Elesh Norn from the sideboard, because Firestorms are enough to deal with creatures. Still, Iona is there, for mono-coloured decks and Combo in general.

Any comments or suggestions?

[muffunz]

I'm looking for sideboard options for a manaless variant. Here's my current list;

Creatures (43)
4x Golgari Thug
3x Shambling Shell
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
3x Balustrade Spy
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomeba
4x Nether Shadow
4x Phantasmagorian
4x Street Wraith
4x Chancellor of the Annex

Enchantments (4)
4x Bridge from Below

Instants (1)
1x Contagion

Sorceries (12)
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return

Sideboard (15)
4x Unmask
4x Sickening Shoal
3x Contagion

I have no way to deal w/ artifacts/enchantments :/ Any options I'm missing?

[Fortunae]

I'm looking for sideboard options for a manaless variant. Here's my current list;

Creatures (43)
4x Golgari Thug
3x Shambling Shell
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
3x Balustrade Spy
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomeba
4x Nether Shadow
4x Phantasmagorian
4x Street Wraith
4x Chancellor of the Annex

Enchantments (4)
4x Bridge from Below

Instants (1)
1x Contagion

Sorceries (12)
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return

Sideboard (15)
4x Unmask
4x Sickening Shoal
3x Contagion

I have no way to deal w/ artifacts/enchantments :/ Any options I'm missing?

You may find more help over in the Manaless Ichorid thread, friend. 'Round these parts, we like our Cephalid Coliseums ;-)

[igri_is_a_bk]

I don't think you guys understood what I meant. I'm saying Firestorm should not be in your 75 at all.

[joemauer]

I don't think you guys understood what I meant. I'm saying Firestorm should not be in your 75 at all.

I don't feel like Firestorm meshes well with LED dredge either. Sure it can kill a Delver or a Deathrite Shaman, but for game two we are more worried about fighting Leylines, RiPs, and Extractions. Killing Scavening Ooze is all good and everything, but MoM always makes that tough for us. Maverick is kind of at a lull anyway.

With LED dredge, to really make Firestorm effective you must discard some kind of business spell like Careful Study, Land, LED, and etc.

[laststepdown]

I doubt any of you are going to like this, but I've been working on a list that had LED in it until a few hours ago, using the basic shell of the deck. Here's where I'm at right now-I'm sorry for using Chains of Mephistopheles, I guess it's a St. Louis thing? Regardless, Manabond has a few upsides to being used in the Putrid Imp spot, mostly opening us up to things like Wasteland and Life from the Loam. Bloodghast makes more sense here than Ichorid with so few black creatures and more land drops, and the deck can dredge a Grave-Troll and hard cast it to win behind Wasteland recursion if the normal 'free creatures and mind twist' doesn't work in your favor. I'm probably shooting in the dark here, but I've been playing dredge since before Bridge from Below was a card, and won a Nationals invite with dredge in '07, so I would like to think I know a few things about the archetype. The sideboard is a mess. I've devoted most of my time to the first 60, and most sideboard choices are metagame calls anyway.

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Wasteland
4 Lotus Petal
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Manabond
2 Dread Return
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Life from the Loam
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug

sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
3 Pithing Needle
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Angel of Despair
1 Karakas

[Beatusnox]

I doubt any of you are going to like this, but I've been working on a list that had LED in it until a few hours ago, using the basic shell of the deck. Here's where I'm at right now-I'm sorry for using Chains of Mephistopheles, I guess it's a St. Louis thing? Regardless, Manabond has a few upsides to being used in the Putrid Imp spot, mostly opening us up to things like Wasteland and Life from the Loam. Bloodghast makes more sense here than Ichorid with so few black creatures and more land drops, and the deck can dredge a Grave-Troll and hard cast it to win behind Wasteland recursion if the normal 'free creatures and mind twist' doesn't work in your favor. I'm probably shooting in the dark here, but I've been playing dredge since before Bridge from Below was a card, and won a Nationals invite with dredge in '07, so I would like to think I know a few things about the archetype. The sideboard is a mess. I've devoted most of my time to the first 60, and most sideboard choices are metagame calls anyway.

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Wasteland
4 Lotus Petal
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Manabond
2 Dread Return
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Life from the Loam
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug

sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
3 Pithing Needle
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Angel of Despair
1 Karakas

No offense intended but you have none of the explosiveness that most of the lists have now. I am not using LED atm because I don't have them, however, I still use studies, faithless, and breakthrough. Much of the power of the deck comes from being faster than your opponent or their hate. Your list seems designed to be grindy, without resilience.

[rw1347]

Sorry to change the topic, but how do you guys feel on griselbrand in this deck as a DR target? Haven't been able to get much testing with it.

[joemauer]

Sorry to change the topic, but how do you guys feel on griselbrand in this deck as a DR target? Haven't been able to get much testing with it.

Well he can theoretically dredge 60 cards if you have the standard 12 dredgers in your deck.

[Fortunae]

Well he can theoretically dredge 60 cards if you have the standard 12 dredgers in your deck.

I tested it for a bit after Avacyn Restored was released, and I wasn't very impressed. It was fairly easy to dredge your entire deck, but if you are resolving a DR you should be winning the game anyway. The vast majority of the time it was a "win-more" card, so I eventually went back to FKZ*.

*meta call, I'm in agreement with the zero MD DR targets plan for larger tournaments.

[Mr. Froggy]

I feel like rebuilding my stolen LED Dredge deck, I miss it too much. It would wreck my meta since no one plays graveyard hate... At all...

[rw1347]

I tested it for a bit after Avacyn Restored was released, and I wasn't very impressed. It was fairly easy to dredge your entire deck, but if you are resolving a DR you should be winning the game anyway. The vast majority of the time it was a "win-more" card, so I eventually went back to FKZ*.

*meta call, I'm in agreement with the zero MD DR targets plan for larger tournaments.

At times I can see it being win more, but with how the popularity of sneak and show is getting, feel like it could be viable. Was thinking about running both FKZ and Grisel main deck, going to try to test with it today.
A main reason he came to mind was if you have him in hand and a few dredgers, and the opponent drops show and tell and drops anything it will give you a better answer to their grisel, or can even give you a massive dredge you need to set up for your next turn to hit a FKZ if you are staring down and emrakul. He can even help out as a DR target if you putter out on dredgers (anyone who has played this deck knows that awful feeling).

[rw1347]

I feel like rebuilding my stolen LED Dredge deck, I miss it too much. It would wreck my meta since no one plays graveyard hate... At all...

lucky.... lol

[goblinsplayer]

I am thinking of building this deck. could anyone give me a standard list that i should try to build?

[igri_is_a_bk]

I am thinking of building this deck. could anyone give me a standard list that i should try to build?

Read the opening post and look for a version called quadlazer. Adjust your sideboard and you're good to go.

[Parcher]

I have a new bit of tech for those who haven't seen any changes in the deck for a while. I'll preface this by first saying that I have tested it extensively, and played it in a tournament yesterday with great success.

Excluding the Strasbourg results, there aren't many Tribal decks around now. And to be honest, Dredge doesn't really need much to beat them anyway. So I decided to cut Firestorm to try and up my percentages against the Combo decks that have been flooding the meta. It does hurt against Tempo, since they are a guaranteed discard outlet that may kill a creature, but since most of these decks now have to run little, to no direct hate, since they need slots to combat the Combo, Control, and Mid-Range, I'm comfortable with it.

Cuttting to the chase, I'm running the standard Quad list, -1 Ichorid, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Thug, +1 Citadel, +1 Dread Return,+1 Darkblast. Pretty basic. I removed the 4 Firestorms in the SB for 4 Lotus Petal, hence the need for DBlast against Welder, Peacekeeper, etc.

That's right. Lotus Petalin the SB, AND 13 Lands.

An exercise; Try cutting 1 PImp, 1 Ichorid, 1 Citadel(assuming you will still have 12 lands), and 1 Thug(assuming 4, DBlast for me), for the 4 Lotus Petal against any deck without countermagic, or hate that they can effectively use on turn one. Nihil, Crypt, Cage, Leyline, and Surgical being the only ones commonly used. Though if on the play, you can still take a bit of a risk, and implement this plan if you know they don't run Force. Any other hate is irrelevant, and Surgical is only relevant if they can kill you on turn one. So you basically have to ignore it on this plan.

Run some hands with it. Play slowly, evaluating every possible line. While Dredge players are used to doing this for on-board activities, your lines of play from your opener are more often not that varied.

Land+LED+draw spell is always awesome. Now you can add Petal in the Land slot, giving more chances of that explosive hand. However, now Land+Petal+any draw+any discard outlet gives you almost as much explosiveness on turn one. Land+Petal+2 draw is even better, since Land+Looting/Study can draw you into Petal or LED. Even if you don't open with the Petal, you can keep hands like that, and if you Study/Loot into one, the game is over. You can even do stuff like Coliseum+LED+Petal on the draw, and get a Loot out of it if you hit one off the Coliseum.

Tested it for a while, and played with it this weekend. I beat TES, ANT, and Tinfins. All unfavorable, to downright poor matchups. All easily. Just as an example; I beat TES on the draw with a hand of Land+LED+Study+Breakthrough+blanks, when he turn one Duressed me(took LED, obv.). I drew a second dredger for the turn, cast Study drawing Petal, and Petal'd into Breakthrough. I beat Tinfins on the play without a draw spell! Land, PImp, Petal, hardcast Therapy, discard Bridge, Troll, and Ichorid to PImp, flashback Therapy. Next turn swing for five. Next turn swing for seven and Therapy again.

This does limit your sideboard however. Right now, I'm on something like this:

4 Lotus Petal
3 Nature's Claim
3 Wispmare
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ashen Ghoul
1 Land/2nd Dread/Dread Target, ?

RIP is heavy in my area. As is Combo, and Blade. Petal for Combo, Claim+Wisp against RIP, and a lot of GerryT's deck running Leylines. Grudge+Ghoul against the mid-range decks. Blade with Extractions, or Jund with Nihil and the like.

The last slot is still undecided. I really want a land there, since against any deck with countermagic, you need multiples to use both your anti-hate, and advance your own game. I've found that petal doesn't work in this regard, since if they counter your spell, they effectively counter your future mana sources as well. Especially against the Tempo decks with multiple free counters, and Wastes. Seems impossible to want 18 mana sources in a Dredge deck. But that's how I'm leaning. Still working on it though.

But seriously. If you have a good amount of the decks mentioned in your meta. Decks that we normally are disadvantaged to, even in game one. Please test this out.

[slave]

Will try it.
Petal sounds like our first turn would be manic!
--------------------------------------------------------------

What's everyone's thoughts on the DR slots?
I'm running between 1 and 2 doctor targets right now (mainly one), and whilst I'm very happy with my Manaless setup, here in combo-LED-dredgeland I'm still flitting between a few different targets.

Flame-kin Zealot & Flayer of the Hatebound are my fave's.
Griselbrand seems a little unnecessary though. In Manaless I find it's almost necessary to run with 3 Grisel (or Spy, Sphinx etc.) to flip the deck.
With LED though I've usually already flipped more than half the deck by the time I could Doctor up a target.

I'm currently testing Craterhoof Behemoth.
So far, it seems good, but it also feels a bit win more.
Opinions?

[Fortunae]

Petals sounds amazing to be honest. I'll be testing this extensively, and will report back later when I have some hard data to munch on.

Thanks for the lead Parcher, this looks VERY promising.

[(nameless one)]

I literally just got my LEDs. What did I miss?

What's the new standard here? Is it still the Quad list?

[Txisvurger]

Hi guys, I'm new to the forum but was attracted by the Primer, which was really well written. I'd love to build this deck, mainly because it is somewhat of a budget friendly deck (even compared to some modern decks). For the moment I can't afford the LEDs, but I'd like to know if replacing them with Lotus Petals can do any harm (I mean, they can allow us to careful study twice T1). I understand it is a big blow to the deck, just was interested in knowing if I'd be better off using these for the moment os simply going with the non-LED build altogether.

Another question is whether to use Reanimate alongside DRs (in the case of decks that use Iona in the MB) although this is less likely to work as it seems forcing the deck too much to do something it doesn't do + it kills DRs synergies.

Anyways, thanks in advance for any help I may get :smile:

[(nameless one)]

I know this version doesn't really use Reanimator targets (Quadlazer lists do not run Dread Return).

Before I got my LEDs, I used to run Manaless Dredge. That deck was as good as this but it also has its liabilities. I know one version of Manaless runs Griselbrand and Flayer of the Hatebound for damage outside of combat step.

[Txisvurger]

So basically quadlazer wins by generating huge amounts of zombies, right?

I mean, I like manaless dredge, I'm just not too sure about its reliability, especially in a graveyard hate-hevavy meta.

If I were to build a quadlazer list or the standard LED dredge replacing LED with lotus petal, could this work. Furthermore, will this list work better with or without LP? And finally, what does Parcher's list use LPs in the sideboard for?

Thanks for the response nameless!

[HammafistRoob]

So basically quadlazer wins by generating huge amounts of zombies, right?

I mean, I like manaless dredge, I'm just not too sure about its reliability, especially in a graveyard hate-hevavy meta.

If I were to build a quadlazer list or the standard LED dredge replacing LED with lotus petal, could this work. Furthermore, will this list work better with or without LP? And finally, what does Parcher's list use LPs in the sideboard for?

Thanks for the response nameless!
You shouldn't be replacing LEDs at all unless it's a temporary budget issue. Your list would be helpful in order to come up with an optimal replacement. The standard LED build runs 16 discard outlets (not counting Cephalid Coliseum or Cabal Therapy). If you take out LED you have to replace it with some form of self discard or you will have major consistency issues. Therefore Lotus Petal is clearly not even close to a good replacement for LED (I know this wasn't Parchers proposition).

I actually really like the idea of trying out Lotus Petal so much I'm going to try and squeeze 3 in my mainboard for some testing.

[Txisvurger]

It is a temporary budget issue. My list ATM is pretty standard along these lines:

1x Flame-Kin Zealot
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug
4x Putrid Imp
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Breakthough
4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
4x Bridge from Below
2x Dread Return

4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
2x Tarnished Citadel
4x Cephalid Coliseum

My idea for LP was to use it as acceleration, but do you think this list needs some more discard?

[HammafistRoob]

I forgot to mention Putrid Imp as a discard outlet (doh!) even though my list runs 2 maindeck.

How attached to the Dread Return package are you? In all the testing I've done and data analysis' I've seen seem to prove that the deck is actually better(for big tournaments) without a Dread Return package maindeck. I actually only run 1 DR, if any, and 0 targets for it in my 75. Reason being that Cabal Therapy is the card that will actually win you most of your games, giving your opponent one or two chances to topdeck a sweeper(if they even have mana to cast it) generally won't matter at all since you'd still have Ichorids coming back and leaving zombies behind. I honestly haven't missed Dread Return at all, no more mulling to five and seeing FKZs among other dead cards in hand. I literally never mulligan into oblivion which was a minor issue when running 2-3 Dread Returns and 1-2 targets for it. I also feel the players that are trying to side in anti-graveyard hate and a Dread Return package are ruining the decks consistency by siding out too many key elements(I hate having to side out breakthrough and/or LED, they are our most explosive cards and can really accelerate you right passed your opponents Rest in Peace or Deathrite Shaman.

About your list Tx-
I do like 14 lands, but imho the twelfth dredger is far more important than the 14th land. So my first suggestion would be -1 Citadel +1 Thug (or Darkblast which I've never been a big advocate of)
I would then cut the DR package entirely for Tireless Tribe. Maybe you could leave a Dread Return for creating zombies and bringing back Grave-Troll to randomly own anyone not playing Sword to Plowshares on the spot but idk I tend to shy away from cards with only cornercase applications(hence me not being big about Darkblast).

[Parcher]

Two things. I agree that Thug is better than Dblast simply as the 12th dredger, which I feel is needed. And that it is rare for it's use as removal to be relevant. Though without Fstorm or Norn, it is a small comfort. It is acting as the fifth PImp against Tempo where I decided it was worth inclusion. Permanant and/or uncounterable discard outlets have always been the best way to beat Tempo

As for Petal, I do not advocate it main. Honestly, I don't see cuts for it outside of lands. Whicb is awful against any deck with Force, since in most cases they counter your land with your spell. Which hurts consistancy and forces more mulligans. Quad has a low mulligan rate for this deck, which I like. And with only boarding Petal against decks without Force, not only does it not hurt your mulligan rate, it actually helps it against the decks which you need an opener with strict requirements for what you are able to do in the first two turns.

[Txisvurger]

About your list Tx-
I do like 14 lands, but imho the twelfth dredger is far more important than the 14th land. So my first suggestion would be -1 Citadel +1 Thug (or Darkblast which I've never been a big advocate of)
I would then cut the DR package entirely for Tireless Tribe. Maybe you could leave a Dread Return for creating zombies and bringing back Grave-Troll to randomly own anyone not playing Sword to Plowshares on the spot but idk I tend to shy away from cards with only cornercase applications(hence me not being big about Darkblast).

I'll definately try this out. I liked the FKZ because of the combo feel, but I agree it didn't seem as necessary.

PS: Where can I find your list to take a look at it?

[grip]

This time only six ppl showed up at our weekly legacy (maybe because of Hanau?).
We all decided to play, 5 rounds so we have to face everyone else.

Round1 Burn 2/1
G1 pretty easy win because of breakthrough.
G2 im one turn short to win and die sadly.
G3 i start with double led, looting and stinkweed imp + thug + x

Round2 UW Control 0/2
G1 i loose opt, no business in within 30 cards
G2 mull to 3 ...

We played before like 12 Testgames and i crushed him pre- as postboard like 10/2 ... very dissapointing!

Round3 Aluren 2/0
G1 i go off turn1 with drawspells.
G2 i cast study, looting, study. on hist last turn he has aluren in hand but nothing else and topdecks ... a land!

Round4 Werewolf-Stompy 2/0
G1 im otd and got a save keep. 7 cards within ggt,pimp,land, looting, x,x,x (im safe to 3sphere, blood moon and chalice)
G2 again otd but he cant land his batterskull.

Round5 Goblins 2/0
G1 this deck is freakin' awesome and i overwhelm him with zombies.
G2 i win with no cards in lib. if my opp would have wasted my lonley gemstone mine with 1 counter i would have lost due to no cards in library.
(but lucky as i am he didnt and in my and i can cast therapy on myself to discard another ichorid and attack in my last turn for lethal dmg, since he has creatures to block)

So i am now 4/1 and first on standings.
Im playing pauper during the rounds and we're waiting for the last 2 players to finish which tooks about an hour.
After all im getting told that we just played for fun and dont pay entry fee. Im quit upset about this and drive home.
If i would have known that earlier ... there are some better things to do at weekend .:mad:

Some thoughts about yesterday:
most of ppl argue that dredge is dead and dont have rights to exist. I told them that dredge has some monts were it is good and some were it isnt because of hate but dont they dont agreed with me. I dont know why, the only thing that matters: i proved them wrong!

[HammafistRoob]

My list is as follows.
//MANA-18
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

//CREATURES-22
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba

//SPELLS-20
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge From Below

The sideboard is a complete mess right now since I'm confused if Lotus Petal is worth it or not... will try to test postboard against RUG today.

[Vandalize]

My list is as follows.
//MANA-18
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

//CREATURES-22
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba

//SPELLS-20
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge From Below

The sideboard is a complete mess right now since I'm confused if Lotus Petal is worth it or not... will try to test postboard against RUG today.

I've been running a pretty similar list, but with -1 Tarnished +1 PImp. I feel like 14 lands + LED is a lot of mana. I've had some mulligans because of triple land hands (none of them being Cephalid Coliseum).

I've also been testing the Lotus Petal stuff, and I feel it's worth it. I just removed my Leyline of the Voids for it, because I haven't used them in a while. Lotus Petal seems ok, not superb or anything, but it does add up some speed.

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
SB: 4 Lotus Petal
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Ashen Ghoul
SB: 2 Coffin Purge (super duper flex slot)
SB: 1 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge

Pretty much Quadlazerish. It's the strongest LED Dredge by far on a long run.

[GoldenCid]

Maybe cutting breakthrough to get the set of imps would be good. Having loothing and studies allows you to run less than 4 BT.

GC.

[Txisvurger]

What do you side in the petals against? And what do you cut?

[slave]

Hi guys,

Could I get some advice?
Let's say you draw a hand with LED, Draw spell, a dredger & 3 lands on game1 - so you still don't know what your opponent is playing.
Would you go for it on T1, or play slower to try and get the lands into play?

Cheers.

[Anusien]

Do those lands do anything? Is the draw spell Faithless Looting? Are any of the lands Cephalid Coliseum?

Also, the answer is almost certainly "go for it" regardless of the answers to the above, unless your hand is like Darkblast, City of Brass, LED, Careful Study and blanks.

[Holly]

Since I have absolutle no clue what they're playing I assume I'm on the play?
In this case, go for it. Every single time.
They must
a) be a deck which plays Force of Will
b) have it (as a 4 off ~40% chance)
c) you'd still have a good chance if the draw spell mentioned is looting and could've still be in an okay shape if it isn't AND they counter it.

If you wait theres just some more stuff you turn on and you have near to no use of it..

Though it does depend on the lands.. if one of it is a Cephalid Coliseum I'm more declined to wait a turn to play it and activate it t3 if I'm stopped on turn 2.

[Txisvurger]

What would, in your experience, be the main differences between LED dredge, non LED dredge and manaless dredge other than the explosiveness of the LED verion? Is LED dredge a far superior deck or does each deck have its own pros and cons?

[RThomas-]

What would, in your experience, be the main differences between LED dredge, non LED dredge and manaless dredge other than the explosiveness of the LED verion? Is LED dredge a far superior deck or does each deck have its own pros and cons?

You may refer to the Manaless Dredge (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21544-Deck-Manaless-Ichorid) thread for specifics on that version, but in my experience, the manaless deck seeks to sacrifice some speed in order to run around blue disruption to employ a "combo" finish that doesn't involve a lot of spells. Manaless is a bit better against targeted disruption like Extraction and Extirpate; it also weakens a lot of commonly played "other" disruption like Hymn to Tourach, Thalia, Liliana, Therapy, and other things like that. Both kinds of decks have the same cards but play differently so whatever you feel most comfortable with will surely be the superior version for you.

[DarkJester]

You may refer to the Manaless Dredge (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21544-Deck-Manaless-Ichorid) thread for specifics on that version, but in my experience, the manaless deck seeks to sacrifice some speed in order to run around blue disruption to employ a "combo" finish that doesn't involve a lot of spells. Manaless is a bit better against targeted disruption like Extraction and Extirpate; it also weakens a lot of commonly played "other" disruption like Hymn to Tourach, Thalia, Liliana, Therapy, and other things like that. Both kinds of decks have the same cards but play differently so whatever you feel most comfortable with will surely be the superior version for you.

Some more points of view:

In a meta with Discard-Spells all over the place (I'm looking at you Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize) LED-Dredge should be better than all other forms of the archetype, because it doesn't get timewalked by them most of the time. Most important parts of the deck are 4-offs, so you can rely on surviving one early discard spell hitting LED or draw-spell. It's very redundant, streamlined and still has the ability to walk through blue disruption with ease.
Manaless offers more fuel from the grave, is MUCH better to survive Extraction-Effects, a little bit better against blue-disruption, worse against RiP-Decks, and weaker against Storm imo.
LED-less seems outdated since the printing of Looting.

So, choose your weapons. ;)

[Mindlash]

This time only six ppl showed up at our weekly legacy (maybe because of Hanau?).
We all decided to play, 5 rounds so we have to face everyone else.

Round1 Burn 2/1
G1 pretty easy win because of breakthrough.
G2 im one turn short to win and die sadly.
G3 i start with double led, looting and stinkweed imp + thug + x

Round2 UW Control 0/2
G1 i loose opt, no business in within 30 cards
G2 mull to 3 ...

We played before like 12 Testgames and i crushed him pre- as postboard like 10/2 ... very dissapointing!

Round3 Aluren 2/0
G1 i go off turn1 with drawspells.
G2 i cast study, looting, study. on hist last turn he has aluren in hand but nothing else and topdecks ... a land!

Round4 Werewolf-Stompy 2/0
G1 im otd and got a save keep. 7 cards within ggt,pimp,land, looting, x,x,x (im safe to 3sphere, blood moon and chalice)
G2 again otd but he cant land his batterskull.

Round5 Goblins 2/0
G1 this deck is freakin' awesome and i overwhelm him with zombies.
G2 i win with no cards in lib. if my opp would have wasted my lonley gemstone mine with 1 counter i would have lost due to no cards in library.
(but lucky as i am he didnt and in my and i can cast therapy on myself to discard another ichorid and attack in my last turn for lethal dmg, since he has creatures to block)

So i am now 4/1 and first on standings.
Im playing pauper during the rounds and we're waiting for the last 2 players to finish which tooks about an hour.
After all im getting told that we just played for fun and dont pay entry fee. Im quit upset about this and drive home.
If i would have known that earlier ... there are some better things to do at weekend .:mad:

Some thoughts about yesterday:
most of ppl argue that dredge is dead and dont have rights to exist. I told them that dredge has some monts were it is good and some were it isnt because of hate but dont they dont agreed with me. I dont know why, the only thing that matters: i proved them wrong!

Congrats on the results. I don't get it why you don't see much more dredge decks topping events. Right now there is not much gravehate despite Deathrite Shaman. And shaman does nothing against LED Dredge...there must be something overseen by me.

Eh...people playing Aluren, Burn and Werewolf Stompy arguing Dredge is dead and has no rights to exist?! Dafuq am I reading??

[GoldenCid]

What would, in your experience, be the main differences between LED dredge, non LED dredge and manaless dredge other than the explosiveness of the LED verion? Is LED dredge a far superior deck or does each deck have its own pros and cons?

As mentioned above you should refer to the corresponding thread for details but in summary:

Explosiveness:

LED > LEDless > Manaless

The first ones can race fast combo (or not) decks with poor sideboarding but in contrast with manaless is by far less sensitive to countermagic and surgical extraction which is an advantage off course but it has a lower rasponse capability to hard situations.
As an example:

If go against elves which dropped 5 -7 green man in the fisrts 2 turns probably you're done with manaless but not with other versions. But please do not take this a true fact but just as an example. Moreover you dont depend on your opening like manaless does.

Im concern top manaless i think that it resilience against countermagic and extraction effects are the only advantages.

Just take your choice! Dredge is always a bomb deck!

GC.

[Vandalize]

Went 4-1 on a local store tournament. I'll write an report as soon as I can. List went perfectly.

Miracles (2-0)
GWb Maverick (2-1)
GWb Maverick (2-0)
Enchantress (0-2) (damn you, Elephant Grass)
Esperblade (2-0)

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Ashen Ghoul
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 Wispmare
SB: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge

Slamming with Ghouls. Such an awesome card.

[Angelteg]

This is my third time writing this, my blackberry keeps deleting it right before I got to post. Either way, I have been lurking around here for quite a while, and this thread has really helped me get better at playing the deck to the point that I have been doing really well at my local weekly's with my LED-less build. I am on the verge of biting the bullet and trading my FoWs for LEDs. I'm scared to remove my Dread Return package, but that's a topic for another post.

I want to make sure I understand a line of play regarding LED and faithless looting. I've tried digging through the thread, but either I'm missing it or am really bad at searching.

My hand:
City of Brass
Faithless Looting
LED
Troll
Stinkweed Imp

I play City, I play LED. I cast Faithless looting. Can I respond by cracking my LED to float 3 red, discarding my hand and dredge the Troll and the Imp, then discard them, flashback Looting with the 3 red I floated and dredge them again on turn 1?

I'm pretty sure I can (and that is the whole point of LED) but I wanted to confirm. Thanks for the help.

[Holly]

It's not the whole point of LED but yes that's a line of play and works just like you said.

[Fortunae]

Just remember that you have to explicitly state that you are retaining priority after casting Faithless Looting or else it doesn't work. Saw someone lose the third game of a match because of that at a 1k, it was pretty miserable.

[slave]

Does anyone run a couple Dakmor Salvage for additional mana-support?
I've been running 2 in the main, together with the 12 usual mana-sources. I have some Tarnished & Undiscovered in the side also.
The reason is not just Wasteland, but to also activate Coliseum after a T1 combo play (potentially), should it have been the only mana source I drew in my initial grip.

What's the consensus on Dakmor here guys and gals?
Good or Bad?

[Holly]

Not sure how you're going to activate a Coliseum with the Salvage.. but if you find a way to do so tell me more about it ;)

Otherwise in a non-Bloodghast-Deck I'm not fond of it, it dredges for so little and the most usefull application is as a manasource for Ashen Ghouls after bording and for them I'm allready boarding in some lands.. Yes there've been times were my land was wasted and I couldn't return some Ghouls, but these times are not that common since most matchups were you board in Ghouls your opponent don't play Wastelands or at least not the full playset.

[slave]

Whoops, didn't quite read that too well.. ha ha.


....in a non-Bloodghast-Deck I'm not fond of it ...... the most usefull application is as a manasource for Ashen Ghouls.

For those of you who do play with these, what's your deck look like?
And is Ashen Ghoul a sideboard-only card?

[Holly]

Yes strictly a sideboard card to combat extraction.
My Mainboard is mostly Quadlaser, sometimes -1 Thug +1 Darkblast and/or -1 something (Ichorid mostly) +1 Land.

Sideboard is allways different but if I do play Ghouls there (depends on the meta) I will add 2-3 lands (depending how many I play main) there.

[Que]

I prefer the traditional quadlazer sb:

1x Ancient Grudge
4x Nature's Claim
2x Tarnished Citadel
1x Undiscovered Paradise
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Ashen Ghoul


Game two I almost always want to board in 4x Nature's Claim, 1x Ancient Grudge, and the three lands. Of course this will depend on the opposing deck, however, a good amount of the time thats my strat.

[IrishLegend]

I have a question for those of you not playing quadlazer mainly because I play Dread Return with Flayer of the Hatebound.(I dont know which is better...) Do you find it hard combo win when your using Natures Claim G2? Or do you side out the combo?

[SaintS]

Hi everyone! I've been wanting to play some Legacy again, and as always, I want to play dredge! I was playing Manaless before, but it's lack of explosivness is pushing towards LED(less) Dredge.
As I have some school exams till June, I can't really spend a lot of time on forums, but I'll catch up later; I would just like to ask, what are the 2 most standards list for Led & Ledless dredge for the moment?

thanks a lot!

[slave]

Hi everyone! I've been wanting to play some Legacy again, and as always, I want to play dredge! I was playing Manaless before, but it's lack of explosivness is pushing towards LED(less) Dredge.
As I have some school exams till June, I can't really spend a lot of time on forums, but I'll catch up later; I would just like to ask, what are the 2 most standards list for Led & Ledless dredge for the moment?

thanks a lot!

After being a Manaless player for quite a while, I think you need to think about two things.
How common is DRS, Scavenging Ooze type cards that can remove things in your grave, and whether you have LED's!
If you don't, why are you here! :laugh::laugh: :tongue:

The LEDless dredge list is very subpar compared to running LED's, and running a small amount of threats, as in Ichorid, Ahsen Ghoul etc., in LED/LEDless-dredge can be problematic against meta's running lots of DRS decks.
I've personally found Quadlaser to be my favoured list, as I don't find the Dread Return Package as playable here as in the Manaless lists, but that's just me - I'm sure many here favour the DR. Package too.

[raikenxy]

hey guys, im an LED player who runs MD flayer combo kill in his list. i was wondering if anyone could give me some tips on playing against stoneblade games two and three, right now I'm pretty much only trying to blow them out as fast as possible and it just doesnt work lol. right now just the play of snapcaster, surgical removing everything relevant kills me. any help would be much appreciated. right now my current sideboard is this

4 leyine of sanctity (most grave hate i face is the form of tormods and nihil spellbomb)
1 Elesh Norn
4 nature's claim
1 cabal therapy
1 dread return
1 Iona
2 firestorm
1 Ancient grudge

[Cipher]

Deck: Dredge (http://deckstats.net/decks/1343/16169-dredge/en) http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

Threats
1 Griselbrand (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Griselbrand)
3 Ichorid (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ichorid)
2 Dread Return (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Dread+Return)
4 Bridge from Below (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Bridge+from+Below)
4 Cabal Therapy (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Cabal+Therapy)

Engine
4 Golgari Grave-Troll (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Golgari+Grave-Troll)
4 Stinkweed Imp (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Stinkweed+Imp)
4 Golgari Thug (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Golgari+Thug)
4 Narcomoeba (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Narcomoeba)
4 Putrid Imp (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Putrid+Imp)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Lion%27s+Eye+Diamond)
2 Careful Study (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Careful+Study)
4 Faithless Looting (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Faithless+Looting)
4 Breakthrough (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Breakthrough)

Lands
2 Cephalid Coliseum (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Cephalid+Coliseum)
4 City of Brass (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=City+of+Brass)
4 Gemstone Mine (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Gemstone+Mine)
2 Tarnished Citadel (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tarnished+Citadel)

Sideboard
1 Flame-Kin Zealot (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Flame-Kin+Zealot)
1 Ichorid (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ichorid)
2 Street Wraith (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Street+Wraith)
3 Winds of Change (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Winds+of+Change)
3 Firestorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Firestorm)
3 Nature's Claim (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Nature%27s+Claim)
2 Cephalid Coliseum (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Cephalid+Coliseum)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display deck statistics (http://deckstats.net/decks/1343/16169-dredge)

I'm curious about few things. Dropping the Dread Return package from the main sounds powerful, but as I've seen it so far, you lose game 1 when 3 things happen:

1.) Your opponent exiles all your bridges
2.) A combo deck goes off
3.) You fail to dredge

The Dread Return helps in the first 2 situations. I see Combo as being the most troublesome matchup, and Griselbrand has basically been a mind twist for their handsize with a 7/7 lifelinker in play. By that, I'm referring to Cabal Therapies and flashbacks.

The third scenario I see adding more engine pieces would help against, but are you really gaining anything by putting more draw spells in your deck? I worry that only having 4x Ichorids and 4x Cabal Therapy will actually weaken Bridge from Below, which is the primary win condition if you don't have a single Dread Return maindeck. I've had games where 3 Bridges dredge early, and a single Bolt exiles them all on my Draw step. Now I'm supposed to win just off Ichorid damage?

I'm also torn about whether to run any Dread Return targets in the sideboard. Right now I have the Street Wraiths coming in for BGx decks, but that was just empty space I had due to not caring about a second dedicated DR target. I'm most worried about targets for the combo matchup, but is there another matchup where a DR target could be clutch? I would much rather keep draw spells in against all the grindy Deathrite Shaman decks than run Elesh Norn, for example. As it is, I'm running Flame-Kin Zealot for Combo, but I don't know with this deck whether it's better percentage to run more careful study, or to board in a FKZ. Girselbrand can strip their entire hand, but FKZ can K.O. them after they Show and Tell.

As far as lands go, anyone have thoughts on me taking out 2x Cephalid Coliseum for 2x Careful Study? As I see it the only reason you want 2 lands in play is so you can activate the Coliseum...circular reasoning. The other reason to not cut lands is the zero land hands you can draw. I did the math, and cutting 2 lands increased my 0 land hands by 5%. But if the only land I drew was a Cephalid Coliseum, the only spell it would cast was Breakthrough. A single Coliseum hand is always a mulligan for me. I moved the other 2 copies to the sideboard thinking that against blue decks, having the slow, but uncounterable threshold ability is still great.

This is what I got so far. I do great at tournaments, but...this is a Dredge deck, and nobody comes prepared since I play it infrequently.

[Mindlash]

I'm curious about few things. Dropping the Dread Return package from the main sounds powerful, but as I've seen it so far, you lose game 1 when 3 things happen:

1.) Your opponent exiles all your bridges
2.) A combo deck goes off
3.) You fail to dredge

The Dread Return helps in the first 2 situations. I see Combo as being the most troublesome matchup, and Griselbrand has basically been a mind twist for their handsize with a 7/7 lifelinker in play. By that, I'm referring to Cabal Therapies and flashbacks.

The third scenario I see adding more engine pieces would help against, but are you really gaining anything by putting more draw spells in your deck? I worry that only having 4x Ichorids and 4x Cabal Therapy will actually weaken Bridge from Below, which is the primary win condition if you don't have a single Dread Return maindeck. I've had games where 3 Bridges dredge early, and a single Bolt exiles them all on my Draw step. Now I'm supposed to win just off Ichorid damage?

I'm also torn about whether to run any Dread Return targets in the sideboard. Right now I have the Street Wraiths coming in for BGx decks, but that was just empty space I had due to not caring about a second dedicated DR target. I'm most worried about targets for the combo matchup, but is there another matchup where a DR target could be clutch? I would much rather keep draw spells in against all the grindy Deathrite Shaman decks than run Elesh Norn, for example. As it is, I'm running Flame-Kin Zealot for Combo, but I don't know with this deck whether it's better percentage to run more careful study, or to board in a FKZ. Girselbrand can strip their entire hand, but FKZ can K.O. them after they Show and Tell.

As far as lands go, anyone have thoughts on me taking out 2x Cephalid Coliseum for 2x Careful Study? As I see it the only reason you want 2 lands in play is so you can activate the Coliseum...circular reasoning. The other reason to not cut lands is the zero land hands you can draw. I did the math, and cutting 2 lands increased my 0 land hands by 5%. But if the only land I drew was a Cephalid Coliseum, the only spell it would cast was Breakthrough. A single Coliseum hand is always a mulligan for me. I moved the other 2 copies to the sideboard thinking that against blue decks, having the slow, but uncounterable threshold ability is still great.

This is what I got so far. I do great at tournaments, but...this is a Dredge deck, and nobody comes prepared since I play it infrequently.

First of all I don't like Flame-Kin Zealot as it demands bridges in your gy to do something at all. And even if you get it to do something it will just win one turn faster. Most of the time you will win anyway one turn later because after you "comboed off" you can strip your opponent of his most valuable spells and assemble a huge army of the undead. FKZ is useless against prison effects like Elefant Grass.

If you want to play the Dread Return package I would use Flayer of the Hatebound in addition to Griselbrand. Flayer can win without bridges, goes through prisons and turns your Ichorids into Lightning Bolts. My biggest concern with Flayer is the "need" for a third Dread Return.

You should not cut Cephalid Coliseums and Careful Study. Study is the best card to cast out of coliseum. It also helps in postboard games finding your antihate pieces. I would rather cut a breakthrough before cutting studies.

Coliseum on the other hand is uncounterable draw 3 (ok I know there is stifle) which is pretty useful. You may also do things like: Coliseum > Study > drop dredgers > next turn another coliseum > led for blue and win. Happens more often than one may think :D

If I would play with Dread Return + Targets ever again I would be playing something like this:

Deck: "Dread Return Dredge" (http://deckstats.net/deck-2377682-5dcc8178524c9c816ad953f143777868-de.html) http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Maindeck
4 City of Brass (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=City+of+Brass)
4 Gemstone Mine (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Gemstone+Mine)
4 Cephalid Coliseum (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Cephalid+Coliseum)
4 Faithless Looting (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Faithless+Looting)
4 Careful Study (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Careful+Study)
2 Breakthrough (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Breakthrough)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Lion%27s+Eye+Diamond)

//Maindeck
3 Cabal Therapy (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Cabal+Therapy)
4 Putrid Imp (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Putrid+Imp)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Golgari+Grave-Troll)
4 Stinkweed Imp (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Stinkweed+Imp)
3 Golgari Thug (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Golgari+Thug)
3 Ichorid (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Ichorid)

//Maindeck
4 Narcomoeba (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Narcomoeba)
4 Bridge from Below (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Bridge+from+Below)
3 Dread Return (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Dread+Return)
1 Flayer of the Hatebound (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Flayer+of+the+Hatebound)
1 Griselbrand (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Griselbrand)

//Sideboard
1 Tarnished Citadel (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Tarnished+Citadel)
1 Undiscovered Paradise (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Undiscovered+Paradise)
2 Ashen Ghoul (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Ashen+Ghoul)
2 Firestorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Firestorm)
4 Nature's Claim (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Nature%27s+Claim)
1 Ancient Grudge (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Ancient+Grudge)
4 Leyline of the Void (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Leyline+of+the+Void)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Deckstatistik anzeigen (http://deckstats.net/deck-2377682-5dcc8178524c9c816ad953f143777868.html)

But after switching forth and back between Quadlaser and DR-Dredge I finally settled with Quadlaser.
It is more consistent, especially post board. I never felt to slow G1, even against most combo decks.
It is just so much easier to grind out games 2 and 3 with the Quadlaserbuild.

Another good Idea may be the Quadlaser Maindeck with the addition of 1-2 Dread Returns. You can reanimate giant trolls with it while ammassing large numbers of zombies. Sometimes even DR on Ichorid is enough after comboing off to generate those extra tokens :-)

Mfg Mindlash

[Cipher]

First of all I don't like Flame-Kin Zealot as it demands bridges in your gy to do something at all. And even if you get it to do something it will just win one turn faster. Most of the time you will win anyway one turn later because after you "comboed off" you can strip your opponent of his most valuable spells and assemble a huge army of the undead. FKZ is useless against prison effects like Elefant Grass.

If you want to play the Dread Return package I would use Flayer of the Hatebound in addition to Griselbrand. Flayer can win without bridges, goes through prisons and turns your Ichorids into Lightning Bolts. My biggest concern with Flayer is the "need" for a third Dread Return.

You should not cut Cephalid Coliseums and Careful Study. Study is the best card to cast out of coliseum. It also helps in postboard games finding your antihate pieces. I would rather cut a breakthrough before cutting studies.

Thanks for the response.

I stated in my post that FKZ is in the sideboard for combo decks. He's there is to win 1 turn faster, specifically when they play Show and Tell and pass the turn, or something along those lines. I figure that Griselbrand flipping your entire deck has to be stronger than anything else, except for the situation where cabal therapy on their entire hand is still going to lose the game. That's why I wanted the FKZ.

I'm thinking I've figured out why you guys are running the Flayer. It deals 4, then you hopefully sacrifice it again to deal 5, which is 9 total. But I don't think it's necessary to run 2x targets in the maindeck, and the Flayer's got to be worse after sideboarding than specific targets that are tailored to matchups.

About the Coliseums: I didn't have any Careful Study in my list. The 2 Coliseum's came out for them.

[Ziilot]

Thanks for the response.

I stated in my post that FKZ is in the sideboard for combo decks. He's there is to win 1 turn faster, specifically when they play Show and Tell and pass the turn, or something along those lines. I figure that Griselbrand flipping your entire deck has to be stronger than anything else, except for the situation where cabal therapy on their entire hand is still going to lose the game. That's why I wanted the FKZ.

I'm thinking I've figured out why you guys are running the Flayer. It deals 4, then you hopefully sacrifice it again to deal 5, which is 9 total. But I don't think it's necessary to run 2x targets in the maindeck, and the Flayer's got to be worse after sideboarding than specific targets that are tailored to matchups.

About the Coliseums: I didn't have any Careful Study in my list. The 2 Coliseum's came out for them.

You animate Flayer and then you animate Golgari Grave-Troll and that's a game. But I for myself would not play Dread Returns in my 75.

I was playing standard quadlazer list in Bazaar of Moxen main event, played 5-2-1 drop :/

Draw:
R7 vs. Nic Fit - Very loooooong match. Punted in a second game, because I didn't have third black creature for Ichorid and last turn I had discarded GGT. (I had so many Stinkweed Imps in my hand)

Losses:
R2 vs. Death and Taxes - I still can't play against Bojuka Bog. (1st turn Bojuka Bog, 2nd turn RiP) 1-2
R8 vs. RUG - Guy had three maindecked Scavening Ooze and he drew 2 Ooze + 2 Surgical opening hand in second match 0-2

I haven't played MTG in a year so it was fun but I think over 15 rounds MTG in a weekend is too much :D

[Onslaught]

I play Legacy pretty infrequently, but I like some of the cards in Dredge enough to want to have a deck built for it. With that in mind, I'm willing to have a suboptimal build in order to meet some of my pet deck criteria, though obviously I still want to maximize the competitiveness as much as possible within my weird requirements. Which are:

-Bloodghast instead of Ichorid
-No LED
-Unmask maindeck x4

With those rules in mind, here is what I've been playing (and thoroughly enjoying) lately:

4 Unmask
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough

2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand

4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Dakmor Salvage


Sideboard: standard array of Nature's Claims, Ray, Grudge, Chain of Vapor, toolbox reanimation targets, etc. Also contemplating a Dark Depths transformational board, or Painter/Grindstone.

So if anyone has suggestions to improve this build given my weirdo criteria at the top, I'd love the input. On a side note, why did Entomb never catch on in Dredge?

[raikenxy]

I play Legacy pretty infrequently, but I like some of the cards in Dredge enough to want to have a deck built for it. With that in mind, I'm willing to have a suboptimal build in order to meet some of my pet deck criteria, though obviously I still want to maximize the competitiveness as much as possible within my weird requirements. Which are:

-Bloodghast instead of Ichorid
-No LED
-Unmask maindeck x4

With those rules in mind, here is what I've been playing (and thoroughly enjoying) lately:

4 Unmask
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough

2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand

4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Dakmor Salvage


Sideboard: standard array of Nature's Claims, Ray, Grudge, Chain of Vapor, toolbox reanimation targets, etc. Also contemplating a Dark Depths transformational board, or Painter/Grindstone.

So if anyone has suggestions to improve this build given my weirdo criteria at the top, I'd love the input. On a side note, why did Entomb never catch on in Dredge?


im not rlly sure why you want to run 4 unmask's main? theyre rlly not that synergistic with your cards or the decks strategy at all. Even playing with lands, you will never as a dredge player have four lands on board to hardcast an unmask, so if you can't hardcast that i assume you'll be exiling the black cards from your hand as an alternate cost.

THIS IS NOT OPTIMAL

1) your either exiling your own beaters (ichorid/bloodghast) or your own dredgers, or even worse your own bridges... which you DONT want. you want your dredgers in the graveyard, not exiled. theres a reason why surgical extraction is a pain to deal with, so don't surgically extract urself to play Unmask when you can simply play Cabal therapy for 1 instead, and then for free the second time around.

2) Bloodghasts are rlly not that reliable without dakmore salvage, and i think if you played with ichorid you'd realize that simply having ichorid come back for a creature like putrid imp is better then having a sub-optimal dredge with a dakmor salvage that is not even that useful once its on the field anyway.

if you don't wanna play with LED's i'd recommend the LEDless builds with tireless tribes or faithless looting in place of LED's.

dredge is a combo deck first, so no reason to dilute the combo since game one you usually win anyway. id reccommend running gitaxian probe over unmask, it makes your therapies better and accelerates dredging turn one.

that being said if you like the deck list play it by all means, i think you'd enjoy and get more out of it though with ichorids and probe though

[tyriion]

On a side note, why did Entomb never catch on in Dredge?

Because for one mana you can do more powerful stuff. Like Careful Study, Faithless Looting, activate Cephalid Coliseum or Breakthrough. I'd say even Putrid Imp is better, as he allows you to recur your dredgers each turn.

[Que]

I personally like to play at least one dread return in the 75. It gives the deck a bit of versatility. Sometimes decks can't beat a DR'd 15/15 Troll that regenerates. It gives you the ability to churn out a lot more tokens from a single source. And it gives you another sac outlet in the event your cabal therapies get extracted/extirpated..etc.. and its only 1 slot.

[tyriion]

I personally like to play at least one dread return in the 75. It gives the deck a bit of versatility. Sometimes decks can't beat a DR'd 15/15 Troll that regenerates. It gives you the ability to churn out a lot more tokens from a single source. And it gives you another sac outlet in the event your cabal therapies get extracted/extirpated..etc.. and its only 1 slot.

I'm going to take the deck for one more tournament before shelving it for the rest of the summer as more and more people start bringing GY hate in. Especially as some people picked up TinFins around here as well. One thing I noticed over my last 3 or 4 tournaments is that I didn't really cast Dread Return. (Running quadlazer where I dropped one Ichorid for a DR) And when I did it wasn't enough. So while in theory it sounds great you need a pretty good position before you are able to cast it so it feels like win-more or the reanimated grave troll is too late to change the game.

So I'm now dropping it in favor of Darkblast as an extra dredger in the main. Hopefully this will make the deck mull better, although I'm very much thinking about a 13th land as well.

[chlb]

Quick question about sideboarding with the standard Quadlazer list:

If you anticipate both Surgical Extraction and Grafdigger's Cage, do you usually board in both the Ashen Ghouls and the Nature's Claims along with the land package? Or do you just ignore the Surgical in this case and board against Cage only?

[Cipher]

Quick question about sideboarding with the standard Quadlazer list:

If you anticipate both Surgical Extraction and Grafdigger's Cage, do you usually board in both the Ashen Ghouls and the Nature's Claims along with the land package? Or do you just ignore the Surgical in this case and board against Cage only?

I would board an Ancient Grudge if I suspected. It's a good singleton since you "draw" it extremely easily.

[tyriion]

I would board an Ancient Grudge if I suspected. It's a good singleton since you "draw" it extremely easily.

Would be quite useless against cage however, as you are not allowed to flash it back under the cage effect. If my opponent would board both these cards it would depend on the number really and the deck you are facing. They will probably have 3-4 extractions and 1-4 cages. Depending on whether or not they can tutor them and how dedicated they are to grave hate. As you should easily have room to board 8 cards for game 2 I'd bring in 3 Ghouls and 5 artifact hate. Against Cage the Grudge isn't your best bet though.

[Onslaught]

Here's an updated version of my list from a few posts ago, I figured if I am going to dilute the deck by playing Unmask I might as well maximize the usefulness of the disruption by having a transformational combo sideboard (similar to the Imperial Painter/Grindstone/Enlightened Tutor sideboard package). Also, I feel like with my grindy playstyle that Dread Return for Griselbrand has been a win more, though I still am going to leave behind a single copy of Dread Return as a Bridge enabler/Grave Troll reanimator. If I were to play a non Grave Troll target for Dread Return, it would just be a sideboarded Flamekin Zealot to use against combo...but that's not necessary since I board into a win condition that dodges all graveyard hate.

With the cut Griselbrand/Dread Return, I went ahead and made a few more modifications to get LEDs into the deck. I'm not that impressed with them outside of the obviously amazing "Land, LED, cast Looting, crack LED in response" opening, but ultimately I just needed more discard outlets than what I was playing. It came down to Putrid Imp vs LED, and the explosive early wins from LED made it the clear winner. I would have liked to try a 3 Bloodghast/1 Ichorid split if I had gone with Putrid Imps though, as it would have raised my black creature count kinda high enough to support Ichorid.

http://i.imgur.com/WEn6ctd.png

[Countertoplol]

Here's an updated version of my list from a few posts ago, I figured if I am going to dilute the deck by playing Unmask I might as well maximize the usefulness of the disruption by having a transformational combo sideboard (similar to the Imperial Painter/Grindstone/Enlightened Tutor sideboard package). Also, I feel like with my grindy playstyle that Dread Return for Griselbrand has been a win more, though I still am going to leave behind a single copy of Dread Return as a Bridge enabler/Grave Troll reanimator. If I were to play a non Grave Troll target for Dread Return, it would just be a sideboarded Flamekin Zealot to use against combo...but that's not necessary since I board into a win condition that dodges all graveyard hate.

With the cut Griselbrand/Dread Return, I went ahead and made a few more modifications to get LEDs into the deck. I'm not that impressed with them outside of the obviously amazing "Land, LED, cast Looting, crack LED in response" opening, but ultimately I just needed more discard outlets than what I was playing. It came down to Putrid Imp vs LED, and the explosive early wins from LED made it the clear winner. I would have liked to try a 3 Bloodghast/1 Ichorid split if I had gone with Putrid Imps though, as it would have raised my black creature count kinda high enough to support Ichorid.



Have you even tried playing the regular quadlazer list? I tried playing your build for a few games and it just felt completely underpowered compared to a stock dredge list. If you can afford the LEDs, I don't know why you want to downgrade from pimp and ichorid, they're infinity better than unmask and bloodghast.

[Seraph2k]

But he is playing LEDs..

[Countertoplol]

But he is playing LEDs..

Yea, i'm saying that if he can afford to get the regular LED version, why play a suboptimal list when he could just play quadlazer.

[fimo]

I want to start stating that i m very new with the deck... I picked up the deck for two reasons: 1) it plays magic in an absurd way that no other magic deck does (it is damn fun) and 2) It is very hard to play against it unless you know it well, so learning how to play this deck makes you a better magic player overall. This is of course true for every deck there is, but I think it is true in particular for dredge because of the crazy way it plays. I find particularly attractive the randomness that dredging brings about: when you dredge you don t know beforehand what is going to end up in your GY and this opens up for a ton of different situations and decision making.

I don t own LEDs (yet) so I m playing the LEDless version. However, when I look at lists on the internet it seems like nobody plays firestorm MD. I wonder why... It seems like such a powerful card. Especially the printing of DRS and ooze make this card amazing. I understand that it is weak against combo but in worst case scenario it still lets you discard 2 cards. I have the feeling that decks running DRS have much less hard-GYhate in the SB because they already have 4 pieces of GY hate MD. A firestorm can completelly ruin their day.
Also: is griselbrend the best MD dread return target right now? is iona and FKZ outdated from the MD?
thanks in advance for the help!

[Niggurath]

Could someone post a LEDless dredge list? Can't find any recent and decent list.

I'm trying to play this deck on MTGO, but can't afford LEDs since it's the expensivest card right now :frown:

Thanks in advance!

[Anusien]

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Tarnished Citadel
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return

[Niggurath]

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Tarnished Citadel
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return

Thank you very much. No tireless tribe? I suppose it's hard to find slots for them.

[Vandalize]

Thank you very much. No tireless tribe? I suppose it's hard to find slots for them.

People used to run Tireless Tribe before Faithless Looting was printed. But it's pretty bad compared to FL. It does offer an extra body for Cabal Therapy and Dread Return and does block like a pro, but Faithless Looting add lots of consistency and explosiveness.

I, personally wouldn't run more than 15 lands in Dredge, because getting flooded with lands that hurt you (like Tarnished and City of Brass) can add damage pretty fast, and LEDless is a full turn slower than LED.

I, personally would run this:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 2 Wispmare
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation

Or you can even put -1 Putrid Imp/Breakthrough and +1 Griselbrand, for more explosiveness. It's a pretty good list, and does mulligan a lot less than LED versions (maybe it's even to Quadlazer).

[Niggurath]

People used to run Tireless Tribe before Faithless Looting was printed. But it's pretty bad compared to FL. It does offer an extra body for Cabal Therapy and Dread Return and does block like a pro, but Faithless Looting add lots of consistency and explosiveness.

I, personally wouldn't run more than 15 lands in Dredge, because getting flooded with lands that hurt you (like Tarnished and City of Brass) can add damage pretty fast, and LEDless is a full turn slower than LED.

I, personally would run this:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 2 Wispmare
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation

Or you can even put -1 Putrid Imp/Breakthrough and +1 Griselbrand, for more explosiveness. It's a pretty good list, and does mulligan a lot less than LED versions (maybe it's even to Quadlazer).

Hey Vandalize, I did some goldfishing yesterday, and already did some changes: -1 Tarnished Citadel +1 Griselbrand. I like your 2x Dread Return idea, because sometimes I had to dredge almost all the deck in order to find it, so I'll will try -1 Breakthrough +1 Dread Return.

I understand running Griselbrand gives more explosiveness, but here comes a question: isn't it better to run Flame-Kin because it makes you win a turn earlier?

[Anusien]

I, personally wouldn't run more than 15 lands in Dredge, because getting flooded with lands that hurt you (like Tarnished and City of Brass) can add damage pretty fast, and LEDless is a full turn slower than LED.
Getting flooded with lands doesn't actually hurt you. Having 2 and 3 land hands is only ever a good thing, as long as those lands don't come at the expense of good cards. The extra land makes you mulligan less and are more able to fight Wasteland, activate Coliseum and even flashback Faithless Looting. If you are tapping that Citadel, it's because you don't have enough other lands, which means it's straight up better than a card that doesn't do anything for two turns.

[Vandalize]

Hey Vandalize, I did some goldfishing yesterday, and already did some changes: -1 Tarnished Citadel +1 Griselbrand. I like your 2x Dread Return idea, because sometimes I had to dredge almost all the deck in order to find it, so I'll will try -1 Breakthrough +1 Dread Return.

I understand running Griselbrand gives more explosiveness, but here comes a question: isn't it better to run Flame-Kin because it makes you win a turn earlier?

This is a point that has been bashed over and over in this thread. But here we go again:

If you're able to Dread Return Griselbrand, you'll dredge your whole deck (leaving a few cards not to lose on your next draw step). If you do dredge your whole deck, you'll hit every Bridge from Below, as well as every Cabal Therapy. If you throw 4 Cabal Therapies at your opponent, and make lots of zombies, what are the odds they'll make a come back? Moreover, Griselbrand is a huge threat by his own, as a 7/7 flyer lifelinker.

In order to win with Flame-kin Zealot, you need at least 2 Bridge from Below in your graveyard, and at least 3 bodies to sacrifice for Dread Return (assuming your opponent has no blockers, etc...). So, to deal 21 damage, you'll need 6 zombies + FKZ, which is only achieveable with fast starts (against any competitive deck, at least).

Resuming: Griselbrand gives you 99% chance to win next turn, while FKZ gives you more or less 50% to win in the same turn (those percentages aren't math based, just a random throw). My bet is on Griselbrand.

[Final Fortune]

Thank you very much. No tireless tribe? I suppose it's hard to find slots for them.

I don't think Tireless Tribe has been "removed" from the deck at all, the 16th Land, the 12th Dredger, the 4th Breakthrough, the 4th Cabal Therapy, the Dread Return etc. can all be "trimmed" to include 1-3 Tireless Tribe

Personally, I think

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum

is going to be more consistent just because you have more T2 Coliseum activations

[Final Fortune]

This is a point that has been bashed over and over in this thread. But here we go again:

If you're able to Dread Return Griselbrand, you'll dredge your whole deck (leaving a few cards not to lose on your next draw step). If you do dredge your whole deck, you'll hit every Bridge from Below, as well as every Cabal Therapy. If you throw 4 Cabal Therapies at your opponent, and make lots of zombies, what are the odds they'll make a come back? Moreover, Griselbrand is a huge threat by his own, as a 7/7 flyer lifelinker.

In order to win with Flame-kin Zealot, you need at least 2 Bridge from Below in your graveyard, and at least 3 bodies to sacrifice for Dread Return (assuming your opponent has no blockers, etc...). So, to deal 21 damage, you'll need 6 zombies + FKZ, which is only achieveable with fast starts (against any competitive deck, at least).

Resuming: Griselbrand gives you 99% chance to win next turn, while FKZ gives you more or less 50% to win in the same turn (those percentages aren't math based, just a random throw). My bet is on Griselbrand.

I think a lot of people also fail to realize just how good drawing 7 cards is, because you now have a hand full of a threats in a zone that can't be disrupted by graveyard hate as easily, which is relevant for whenever your Cabal Therapy gets Surgical Extracted etc.

[Holly]

Don't cut a Therapy for a Tribe.

Having not played without LED (aside from manaless) I'd probably not cut Ichorid for it either, rather the 15th land but then again, 3 Ichorid might very well be enough like it's in LED-Dredge.

[Niggurath]

Hey, thank you all for the replies.

I think I'll try Vandalize's advice, so the list he suggested but -1 Breakthrough +1 Griselbrand.

[Final Fortune]

Hey, thank you all for the replies.

I think I'll try Vandalize's advice, so the list he suggested but -1 Breakthrough +1 Griselbrand.

In my experience, you can differentiate the good Dredge players and the bad Dredge players by their affinity for Dread Return and Dread Return targets as opposed to the cards that improve mulligans and win games over the long run. The problem with Dread Return and Griselbrand is that there's this certain sense of self justification after exploding all over an opponent's face that makes you think what you're doing is "good," but you probably could have won the game anyway with Ichorids, Zombies and Cabal Therapies and you'll start to realize the difference between the cards that win games and the cards that end games.

You're going to win more by playing City of Brass, Tireless Tribe go. Dredge, Cephalid Coliseum and go off on the 2nd turn more than you're going to win with Dread Return into Griselbrand on X turn. I believe the stuff like Dread Return and Griselbrand belong in the SB to fight against Surgical Extraction more than anything else.

[tyriion]

Just made top8 in a 66 man tournament.

The list I played was this;

4Lion's Eye Diamond
4Golgari Thug
4Stinkweed Imp
4Golgari Grave-Troll
4Putrid Imp
4Narcomoeba
3Ichorid
4Bridge from Below
1Darkblast
4Breakthrough
4Careful Study
4Faithless Looting
4Cabal Therapy
4Cephalid Coliseum
4Gemstone Mine
4City of Brass
//sideboard
4Leyline of the Void
4Nature's Claim
3Nether Shadow
2Ancient Grudge
1Ichorid
1Tarnished Citadel

My matchups were;
2-0 Mono Black Infect
1-2 Death 'n Taxes (kept scatchy hands, stupid)
2-0 Punishing Jund
1-1 Shardless Bug (didn't scoop game 2 fast enough, so was one turn short for the win)
2-0 Death 'n Taxes
2-0 UW Blade Control
2-0 Deathblade Control

For a 5-1-1 record, going into the top 8 as 8th player. Didn't need breakers luckily, as I was downpaired twice.

First round in the top 8 was Elves, and the little buggers were just a tad too fast.

All in all the quadlazer list plays very smooth. The 4th Ichorid isn't really necessary imo, this might just as well be a 13th dredger (like I played it), a 13th land or a Dread Return if you really want it. But as the poster above me said, Dread Return isn't needed in the main at all. I wish I played it in the side though, as I never boarded the Leylines, but that's a metacall after all.

[HammafistRoob]

Good job, nice list. Do you feel the Leylines are the optimal choice? I prefer Surgicals since this deck is pretty likely to be casting one or two Study effects per game which makes drawing into them a good possibility. I also prefer the 13th land over the 13th dredger because it makes cephalid coliseum much more reliable when you mulligan. If Coliseum is your only land, you're forced to mull most of the time whereas hands with one dredger are perfectly fine, especially preboard. I run the same maindeck -1 DBlast, -2 Imps, +2 Citadel, +1. Ichorid.

[tyriion]

Good job, nice list. Do you feel the Leylines are the optimal choice? I prefer Surgicals since this deck is pretty likely to be casting one or two Study effects per game which makes drawing into them a good possibility. I also prefer the 13th land over the 13th dredger because it makes cephalid coliseum much more reliable when you mulligan. If Coliseum is your only land, you're forced to mull most of the time whereas hands with one dredger are perfectly fine, especially preboard. I run the same maindeck -1 DBlast, -2 Imps, +2 Citadel, +1. Ichorid.

I don't know about Surgical Extraction, only played against the card, never with it. I think the difference is between absolute protection (leyline) and surprise effect (extraction). Most of the decks that are vulnerable to leyline will have a way to deal with it, but it will strain their resources. Extraction is much harder to combat, especially unexpected (got hit by a T1 Rit -> Hymn, hitting Bridge -> Extirpate in round 1 game 1. Still won it thanks to Darkblast killing his critters and Ichorid beatdown+hardcasting Thugs and even a Stinkweed Imp). So I would say it's about personal choice as well. But in my meta GY hate isn't that needed at the moment, so i will probably cut it to get DR and Elesh Norn+Iona to combat those elves players that appear everywhere all of a sudden.

How do you like the 4th Ichorid main? I always felt it was unneeded. Also I would hesitate to cut so many Putrids as they're quite handy to dump your hand. Makes hands with Bridges a lot better.

[HammafistRoob]

I don't know about Surgical Extraction, only played against the card, never with it. I think the difference is between absolute protection (leyline) and surprise effect (extraction). Most of the decks that are vulnerable to leyline will have a way to deal with it, but it will strain their resources. Extraction is much harder to combat, especially unexpected (got hit by a T1 Rit -> Hymn, hitting Bridge -> Extirpate in round 1 game 1. Still won it thanks to Darkblast killing his critters and Ichorid beatdown+hardcasting Thugs and even a Stinkweed Imp). So I would say it's about personal choice as well. But in my meta GY hate isn't that needed at the moment, so i will probably cut it to get DR and Elesh Norn+Iona to combat those elves players that appear everywhere all of a sudden.

How do you like the 4th Ichorid main? I always felt it was unneeded. Also I would hesitate to cut so many Putrids as they're quite handy to dump your hand. Makes hands with Bridges a lot better.

I agree with your assessment of the gy hate. Worth noting though is you can use Surgical as an anti hate card as well as a hate card. You can respond to their Surgical with your own targeting the same card they did, removing it from your grave so theirs fizzles. It's a decent way to keep Narcomoebas and Bridges in your library for later.

I always run 4 Ichorids, but it's just my personal preference since I hate dredging 24 cards and not hitting a creature.

About PImps, yeah I love them too. When Faithless Looting came out I removed all the Imps for them since that was the most obvious swap. I have since been trimming corners to squeeze them back in, but I don't think I have any room left for more so 2 it is for now.

[ZimAshe]

Does anyone here have any recommendations on some budget Dredge lists? Not really looking to pick up 4 LEDs at their current price if you know what I mean.

[tyriion]

Replace them with Tireless Tribe. You probably could have searched this thread for the exact same answer though.

[Onslaught]

I was playing with 1 DR main, and then a board with 1 DR, 1 FKZ, 1 Sun Titan (in a Bloodghast build). I found in a lot of matchups I would just bring in the pure speed/combo Dread Return package with a mentality of "prove your GY hate is good enough to beat me." Depending on what I saw, I could then opt for a fast Dread Return combo win on the play in game 3, or board in my other 12 cards (4 Painter/4 Grindstone/3 Enlightened Tutor) to play around their GY hate. I'm moving away from a transformational board for right now just because I like Ashen Ghoul so much, but I still have the same mentality about "prove your GY hate is good enough" with a Dread Return package in the board. Rather than use 2 slots on FKZ/Sun Titan, and since DR often comes in against combo decks, I went with 2 DR/1 Iona. Here is my current list, which I won a 12 man tournament with (despite playing vs. maindeck RIP in top 4)

//Dredgers (11)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

//Beaters (12)
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Bloodghast
1 Ichorid

//Discard (8)
4 Unmask
4 Cabal Therapy

//Draw (11)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough

//Mana (18)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cephalid Colisseum
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Dakmor Salvage

//Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Dread Return
1 Iona
1 Ancient Grudge

[Niggurath]

Does anyone here have any recommendations on some budget Dredge lists? Not really looking to pick up 4 LEDs at their current price if you know what I mean.

Just look into the previous thread page. There is a pretty good non-LED list IMO (Vandalize's one)

[Anusien]

Removing a Cabal Therapy for a Tireless Tribe is basically a wash in terms of activating Coliseum or casting Breakthrough on turn 2. If you're comfortable with it, removing a Dread Return for a Tireless Tribe is free consistency.

Removing a land, Dredger or Breakthrough for Tireless Tribe actually makes you LESS likely to have a hand that can go turn 2 Coliseum (or Breakthrough, or Faithless Looting, or Careful Study) after discarding a dredger with a spell (Therapy, Imp, Tribe, Looting, Study) on turn 1. I am not conjecturing, I have run the simulations.


I don't think Tireless Tribe has been "removed" from the deck at all, the 16th Land, the 12th Dredger, the 4th Breakthrough, the 4th Cabal Therapy, the Dread Return etc. can all be "trimmed" to include 1-3 Tireless Tribe

Personally, I think

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum

is going to be more consistent just because you have more T2 Coliseum activations

As I posted on the page before, the list that can do that (turn 1 discard a Dredger, turn 2 cast a draw spell) most often without Lion's Eye Diamond is this list:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Tarnished Citadel
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return

Interestingly, it is more consistent at doing this than Quadlazer by almost a full percentage point.

[Croatoan]

I dusted off my old Quadlazer list recently (exactly as the list in the primer) after same time playing storm and was pleasantly surprised. The deck play very nice and I had some pretty good results on small local tournaments with it. Rest in Peace is still a bitch but it is much rarer now, so I don't auto-lose so often (if anyone here knows how to play around RiP please let me know, the card does way too much damage to my game plan at the moment).

However, there are two decks in my meta that are really annoying to play against and I wanted to ask if anyone here has any advice for me. One is Enchantress. It has many really annoying enchantments (Elephant Grass, Confinement, Rest in Peace) and can be surprisingly fast. It might not have a fast clock but it often locks me out of the game and kills me painfully slow. I run four Nature's Claim in the SB but once they hit their stride they can replace anything easily.

The second (and much better) deck I am struggeling against is OmniTell. Show and Tell into Omniscience into Enter the Infinite -> GG. Fun for the whole family. They are blazing fast, kill immediately and I have almost no way of stopping them. Therapies help but they often sideboard Leyline of Sanctity and take away this last option. I could board Nature's Claim to counteract this but that would slow me down, giving them more time to combo out. Is this just a bad matchup or is there a way to beat them I am missing?

[P-E]

For me it's classic quad list with SB
3 firestorm
3 Wispmare
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Tarnished citadel
4 Nature's Claim

wispmare dodges fluster/pierce against miracle and it's good to put on show and tell against mono u omni.

[DredgingLoam]

I do not play Dredge much, but I am looking into a Legacy deck with this being one of the forerunners in my mind. I was curious to the idea of Street Wraith in either the maindeck or sideboard as an answer to Deathrite Shaman, Surgical Extraction, Scavenging Ooze and other targeted Graveyard hate?

[Michael Keller]

In my experience, you can differentiate the good Dredge players and the bad Dredge players by their affinity for Dread Return and Dread Return targets as opposed to the cards that improve mulligans and win games over the long run. The problem with Dread Return and Griselbrand is that there's this certain sense of self justification after exploding all over an opponent's face that makes you think what you're doing is "good," but you probably could have won the game anyway with Ichorids, Zombies and Cabal Therapies and you'll start to realize the difference between the cards that win games and the cards that end games.

While I understand your sentiment for being anti-Dread Return except for as a sideboard option to combat cards like Surgical Extraction, the affinity and desire to play the card has absolutely nothing to do with the caliber of player opting to run the card to maximize its potential to full use. Some players prefer to run it - that doesn't make it wrong at all.

I ran it when I was running hard with LED Dredge - and I'd do it again if given the opportunity.

[slave]

I do not play Dredge much, but I am looking into a Legacy deck with this being one of the forerunners in my mind. I was curious to the idea of Street Wraith in either the maindeck or sideboard as an answer to Deathrite Shaman, Surgical Extraction, Scavenging Ooze and other targeted Graveyard hate?

No real benefit in this deck.
LED dredge has the ability to go stupid on T1 with a nut draw, but more likely T2 > whereas a Manaless Dredge build (that has Wraith as an auto-include) can't go off until T2 at the absolute earliest.
Wraith is good, but LED-dredge is just too tight to fit it in I would think.

[Fortunae]

No real benefit in this deck.
LED dredge has the ability to go stupid on T1 with a nut draw, but more likely T2 > whereas a Manaless Dredge build (that has Wraith as an auto-include) can't go off until T2 at the absolute earliest.
Wraith is good, but LED-dredge is just too tight to fit it in I would think.

There are some benefits, but they are outweighed by the negatives. I played with x4 Wraiths for a few months, long enough to get a decent feel for how it operated in the deck. It was nice to always have Ichorid food, and it also helped fuel some very fast starts. But after 5 or 6 dozen matches with it, I realized that it just wasn't as good as any of the cards that it would be replacing.

I like to keep it in mind though, it certainly jives with what the deck is designed to do. But honestly you can be playing with stronger cards.

[Mindlash]

While I understand your sentiment for being anti-Dread Return except for as a sideboard option to combat cards like Surgical Extraction, the affinity and desire to play the card has absolutely nothing to do with the caliber of player opting to run the card to maximize its potential to full use. Some players prefer to run it - that doesn't make it wrong at all.

I ran it when I was running hard with LED Dredge - and I'd do it again if given the opportunity.

I have to agree here. There is a big difference between beeing a bad player and running a suboptimal decklist. I played DR often myself in private tournaments with friends. It is such a nice flavour card.

Mfg Mindlash

[Parcher]

The second (and much better) deck I am struggeling against is OmniTell. Show and Tell into Omniscience into Enter the Infinite -> GG. Fun for the whole family. They are blazing fast, kill immediately and I have almost no way of stopping them. Therapies help but they often sideboard Leyline of Sanctity and take away this last option. I could board Nature's Claim to counteract this but that would slow me down, giving them more time to combo out. Is this just a bad matchup or is there a way to beat them I am missing?

No, it's not a bad matchup; they have no hate. But with Dredge having no disruption due to Leyline, and their having a light countermagic suite, they tend to end up being "faster". That is to say, our beats sometimes are not enough to kill them before they combo. The whole Quadlazer strategy of just Therapies and beatdown is by far the most consistant way to win with Dredge, if not always the fastest. But nullifying half of that equation allows Combo to basically play against a more fragile Zoo deck that doesn't even have the threat of burn.

I've run one total Dread Return with zero targets since about six months after Looting was printed. That said, with most of the SnT varients running a set of Leylines, and the general rise in Combo, I'm probably going back to running Iona-type guys in the SB again. Since they don't run hate, the only downside is the small increase in mulligans. And if they land Leyline, there is a huge upside.

[raikenxy]

Went 2-1 in a local the other day. Wanted to pick the thread's collective brains on a few idea's i've had about my deck and some boarding idea's and decisions i've been working on.

My list

dredgers (11)

3 thug
4 troll
4 stinkweed

Creatures (13)

4 narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
1 Flayer
1 Griselbrand

Sorcery (15)

3 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
3 Cabal therapy

Enchantment/Artifact (8)

4 LED
4 Bridge from Below

Land (13)

4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Colisseum
4 Gemstone
1 Tarnished Citadel

Sideboard

3 Leyline of the Void
4 natures claim
2 Firestorm
2 winds of change
1 elesh norn
1 iona
1 ancient grudge
1 cabal therapy



Round 1 Aggro Loam (On the play)

I keep a hand with a dredger, coliseum, 2 careful study, bridge and city of brass. I cast careful study and draw an led and golgari troll, i pitch both dredgers and pass the turn. He wastes my coliseum and passes. On my turn two i blow him out and kill him with flayer. Onto game two.

SB choices

-1 thug
-1 putrid Imp
-1 Ichorid
+1 Therapy
+2 Winds of change

He plays a land and passes the turn after mulligan to 6, apparently keeping a sketchy 6. I have a land with careful study, stinkweed imp, land, two moeba's, and winds of change. I play careful study pitching the imp and a thug i drew off the study, then pass. On his turn he plays a land a goyf then passes the turn. On my turn i dredge 5 find a troll and an ichorid, then play winds of change and dredge a shit load of cards. legit awesome sauce in a card lol. I go thirty cards deep and do some cabal therapy shenenigans to get a bunch of zombies and eventually flayer him again to take take it 2-0.

1-0

Round 2, Junk

I'm on the draw here, and being the first time i've played junk wasn't too sure what to expect. I keep a hand with study, breakthrough, land, and a troll and think i'll be alright. He plays turn one deathrite shaman and passes the turn - _ -... i shrug lol. On my turn i draw an led... awesome sauce once again. I dread return a griselbrand, then mill myself until a dome him for 9 off a flayer with double digit zombies. Onto game two.

SB

-1 thug,
-2 putrid imp


+1 therapy
+2 Winds of change (i think i should have gone firestorm here since i was on the draw, but was all hyped from game one i wanted to try it again)

On the draw i mull to 6 keeping a hand of 2 led, land, study, therapy and i thnk two bridges. He plays a fetch land and passes. I draw a study on my draw, then play cabal therapy and my two LED, naming surgical extraction. I get one in his hand, and he reveals engineered explosives, deathrite, 2 green sun's zenith and goyf. EOT he fetches for a bayou and plays deathrite shaman drops another land and plays EE for 0. On my turn i draw a cephalid coliseum, drop it then cast a careful study, i draw a narcomoeba and an thug, pitching a bridge a a moeba to the yard, then pass. On his turn he leaves deathrite up, plays karakas and taps out to play goyf hoping im on a slow dredge plan. He passes, then on my turn i draw a looting, i play looting, drawing a dread return and a troll. I pitch the thug and the dread return, hoping he bites on the thug and exiles it. He does'nt, i sac my hand to LED for 3 blue dumping the troll to the yard, which he quickly eats. I'm now hoping that my threshold with a thug gets there, luckily the first four cards i flip had a thug and a stinkweed imp. I proceed to combo out that turn and return a flayer doming him for 9 and creating 9 zombies. i almost dread reutnred griselbrand here until i noticed his karakas, then just accepted that my zombies were gonna die and hope he doesnt top deck a plowshares to exile flayer. On his turn he kills my zombies with EE then passes. On my turn i bring back three ichorids, triple lightning bolt him and swing for lethal.

2-0

Finals, Shardless BUG

Game One, I'm on the draw and keep an acceptable but sketchy hand... one dredge and a careful study. , he plays deathrite shaman and passes. This would remain to be the only relevant action this game as his deathrite shaman kept me off anything for the rest of the game after my intial careful study only revealed a thug and a bridge, after pitching two thugs, one got eaten the other dredged nothing. I managed to topdeck a cephalid coliseum mid game and combo into an acceptable board state two eat his hand, but his deathrite ate my ichorids and moeba's before they became relevant.

Game 2(on the play)

SB

+2 winds of change
+1 therapy

-1 thug
-1 imp
-1ichorid

On the play i keep a hand with a careful study, winds of change, and troll and a bunch of other stuff, he mulls to 6, doesnt like it but doesnt want to mull to 5. I play careful study, pitch two trolls then pass. He top decks a deathrite shaman, laughs ironically, then passes. I play winds of change and combo out that turn after creating upwards of 20 zombies and flayer/trolling him.

Game threeh

sb
-2 winds of change
+2 firestorm

this game was really grindy and barely remember many of the details. All i know was that i mulled to six and had a hand with therapy, thug, led, breakthrough, land, looting. He play's a land and passes for turn. On my turn i contemplate whether going for the win right there hoping my thug gets, or therapying him for anything that could stop me. I think for a while, and eventually decide to cast therapy for force of will. I hit nothing, on his turn he top decks a deathrite shaman, and passes. on my turn i combo out into nothing useful, and his one deathrite shaman gets there. im fairly certain tat had i gone for the win on turn one i would have gotten there being 15 plus cards ahead. but alas ididnt

against bug decks should we try being more explosive then them ? should i have gone for the turn one in the last game?

Notes

winds of change is a rockstar. I know it's old tech, but acting as breakthroughs four and five is just soooooooo cool. dredging five times is just rlly sweet off one card, the added bonus of making your opponent mulligan into uselessness is all pretty bodacious. i decided to test it in the sideboard against decks without force or which jsut have no interaction with me and i love it.

second, im planning to drop leyline of the voids for nether shadows, i've been toying with this idea for a while and im now pullling the plug that i jsut want the extra bodies in game three to dread return. i understand the quadlazer arguements against it... but it's such a sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet card lol

top decked deathrites suck

[Mindlash]

Went 2-1 in a local the other day. Wanted to pick the thread's collective brains on a few idea's i've had about my deck and some boarding idea's and decisions i've been working on.

My list

dredgers (11)

3 thug
4 troll
4 stinkweed

Creatures (13)

4 narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
1 Flayer
1 Griselbrand

Sorcery (15)

3 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
3 Cabal therapy

Enchantment/Artifact (8)

4 LED
4 Bridge from Below

Land (13)

4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Colisseum
4 Gemstone
1 Tarnished Citadel

Sideboard

3 Leyline of the Void
4 natures claim
2 Firestorm
2 winds of change
1 elesh norn
1 iona
1 ancient grudge
1 cabal therapy



Round 1 Aggro Loam (On the play)

I keep a hand with a dredger, coliseum, 2 careful study, bridge and city of brass. I cast careful study and draw an led and golgari troll, i pitch both dredgers and pass the turn. He wastes my coliseum and passes. On my turn two i blow him out and kill him with flayer. Onto game two.

SB choices

-1 thug
-1 putrid Imp
-1 Ichorid
+1 Therapy
+2 Winds of change

He plays a land and passes the turn after mulligan to 6, apparently keeping a sketchy 6. I have a land with careful study, stinkweed imp, land, two moeba's, and winds of change. I play careful study pitching the imp and a thug i drew off the study, then pass. On his turn he plays a land a goyf then passes the turn. On my turn i dredge 5 find a troll and an ichorid, then play winds of change and dredge a shit load of cards. legit awesome sauce in a card lol. I go thirty cards deep and do some cabal therapy shenenigans to get a bunch of zombies and eventually flayer him again to take take it 2-0.

1-0

Round 2, Junk

I'm on the draw here, and being the first time i've played junk wasn't too sure what to expect. I keep a hand with study, breakthrough, land, and a troll and think i'll be alright. He plays turn one deathrite shaman and passes the turn - _ -... i shrug lol. On my turn i draw an led... awesome sauce once again. I dread return a griselbrand, then mill myself until a dome him for 9 off a flayer with double digit zombies. Onto game two.

SB

-1 thug,
-2 putrid imp


+1 therapy
+2 Winds of change (i think i should have gone firestorm here since i was on the draw, but was all hyped from game one i wanted to try it again)

On the draw i mull to 6 keeping a hand of 2 led, land, study, therapy and i thnk two bridges. He plays a fetch land and passes. I draw a study on my draw, then play cabal therapy and my two LED, naming surgical extraction. I get one in his hand, and he reveals engineered explosives, deathrite, 2 green sun's zenith and goyf. EOT he fetches for a bayou and plays deathrite shaman drops another land and plays EE for 0. On my turn i draw a cephalid coliseum, drop it then cast a careful study, i draw a narcomoeba and an thug, pitching a bridge a a moeba to the yard, then pass. On his turn he leaves deathrite up, plays karakas and taps out to play goyf hoping im on a slow dredge plan. He passes, then on my turn i draw a looting, i play looting, drawing a dread return and a troll. I pitch the thug and the dread return, hoping he bites on the thug and exiles it. He does'nt, i sac my hand to LED for 3 blue dumping the troll to the yard, which he quickly eats. I'm now hoping that my threshold with a thug gets there, luckily the first four cards i flip had a thug and a stinkweed imp. I proceed to combo out that turn and return a flayer doming him for 9 and creating 9 zombies. i almost dread reutnred griselbrand here until i noticed his karakas, then just accepted that my zombies were gonna die and hope he doesnt top deck a plowshares to exile flayer. On his turn he kills my zombies with EE then passes. On my turn i bring back three ichorids, triple lightning bolt him and swing for lethal.

2-0

Finals, Shardless BUG

Game One, I'm on the draw and keep an acceptable but sketchy hand... one dredge and a careful study. , he plays deathrite shaman and passes. This would remain to be the only relevant action this game as his deathrite shaman kept me off anything for the rest of the game after my intial careful study only revealed a thug and a bridge, after pitching two thugs, one got eaten the other dredged nothing. I managed to topdeck a cephalid coliseum mid game and combo into an acceptable board state two eat his hand, but his deathrite ate my ichorids and moeba's before they became relevant.

Game 2(on the play)

SB

+2 winds of change
+1 therapy

-1 thug
-1 imp
-1ichorid

On the play i keep a hand with a careful study, winds of change, and troll and a bunch of other stuff, he mulls to 6, doesnt like it but doesnt want to mull to 5. I play careful study, pitch two trolls then pass. He top decks a deathrite shaman, laughs ironically, then passes. I play winds of change and combo out that turn after creating upwards of 20 zombies and flayer/trolling him.

Game threeh

sb
-2 winds of change
+2 firestorm

this game was really grindy and barely remember many of the details. All i know was that i mulled to six and had a hand with therapy, thug, led, breakthrough, land, looting. He play's a land and passes for turn. On my turn i contemplate whether going for the win right there hoping my thug gets, or therapying him for anything that could stop me. I think for a while, and eventually decide to cast therapy for force of will. I hit nothing, on his turn he top decks a deathrite shaman, and passes. on my turn i combo out into nothing useful, and his one deathrite shaman gets there. im fairly certain tat had i gone for the win on turn one i would have gotten there being 15 plus cards ahead. but alas ididnt

against bug decks should we try being more explosive then them ? should i have gone for the turn one in the last game?

Notes

winds of change is a rockstar. I know it's old tech, but acting as breakthroughs four and five is just soooooooo cool. dredging five times is just rlly sweet off one card, the added bonus of making your opponent mulligan into uselessness is all pretty bodacious. i decided to test it in the sideboard against decks without force or which jsut have no interaction with me and i love it.

second, im planning to drop leyline of the voids for nether shadows, i've been toying with this idea for a while and im now pullling the plug that i jsut want the extra bodies in game three to dread return. i understand the quadlazer arguements against it... but it's such a sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet card lol

top decked deathrites suck

You don't want to play less then 8 studies especially after boarding. They are discard outlet, enabler and dig for antihate for just 1 mana.

Other than that I do not understand why you use the weaker breakthrough before playing the maximum amount of breakthroughs. I can totally understand the use of Winds of Change as Breakthrough 5-6 though.

I would also not cut Cabal Therapies from the maindeck. They are one of the strongest if not the strongest card in dredge. But I guess one has to cut the good cards to play with Dread Return.

Greetings Mindlash

[Michael Keller]

It's been a while, but I'm ready to start dredging again.

[raikenxy]

You don't want to play less then 8 studies especially after boarding. They are discard outlet, enabler and dig for antihate for just 1 mana.

Other than that I do not understand why you use the weaker breakthrough before playing the maximum amount of breakthroughs. I can totally understand the use of Winds of Change as Breakthrough 5-6 though.

I would also not cut Cabal Therapies from the maindeck. They are one of the strongest if not the strongest card in dredge. But I guess one has to cut the good cards to play with Dread Return.

Greetings Mindlash

hey mindlash, geetings and thanks for the input!

the only justification i have for only running three breakthroughs and 3 therapies is that i honestly just find the fourth of either unnesseary in game one. Game 0ne for dredge usually doesn't lastlong enough for the extra therapy to matter. And since u usually dump your hand to breakthrough anyway i figured 3 was the perfect amount since u only ever use one game one anyway, and theyre usualy sideboard fodder games 2/3 if i want to decrease my explosiveness. The fourth therapy is in the board as anti-hate, and i always board it in every game two/three. i used to run two ichorids maindeck and the fourth therapy in the main and the third ichorid in the boad as i've always thought ichorid was jsut too slow game one and this was fine for me until DS got printed.


And about time hollyowood! great stuff!!! glad to hear it

[Mindlash]

hey mindlash, geetings and thanks for the input!

the only justification i have for only running three breakthroughs and 3 therapies is that i honestly just find the fourth of either unnesseary in game one. Game 0ne for dredge usually doesn't lastlong enough for the extra therapy to matter. And since u usually dump your hand to breakthrough anyway i figured 3 was the perfect amount since u only ever use one game one anyway, and theyre usualy sideboard fodder games 2/3 if i want to decrease my explosiveness. The fourth therapy is in the board as anti-hate, and i always board it in every game two/three. i used to run two ichorids maindeck and the fourth therapy in the main and the third ichorid in the boad as i've always thought ichorid was jsut too slow game one and this was fine for me until DS got printed.


And about time hollyowood! great stuff!!! glad to hear it

Yeah...ehm...the thing with Breakthrough is that I think I would play the 4 Breakthrough before I play the first Winds of Change. Winds of Change has a pretty bad synergy with LED. I would play 1 Breakthrough and 1 Winds of Change in the board instead of 0 Breakthrough and 2 Winds of Change.

Nether Shadow is a good thing while running a DR Dredge Deck. In Quadlaser you run the Ashen Ghouls because you need the extra power, while the Nether Shadows are better as bodies for DR.

Cabal Therapy is a card I only go below 4 with in the mirror. Otherwise its always maxed. But since I have no DR its my only way to sac people :) With two DR in your deck you might always have enough sac outlets so 3 therapies might work for you I guess.

Greetings Mindlash

[Anusien]

Finals, Shardless BUG

Game One, I'm on the draw and keep an acceptable but sketchy hand... one dredge and a careful study. , he plays deathrite shaman and passes. This would remain to be the only relevant action this game as his deathrite shaman kept me off anything for the rest of the game after my intial careful study only revealed a thug and a bridge, after pitching two thugs, one got eaten the other dredged nothing. I managed to topdeck a cephalid coliseum mid game and combo into an acceptable board state two eat his hand, but his deathrite ate my ichorids and moeba's before they became relevant.

Game 2(on the play)

SB

+2 winds of change
+1 therapy

-1 thug
-1 imp
-1ichorid
I like how your issue in this matchup was not having enough dredgers to chain into them, and yet you board out a Thug.

[Michael Keller]

If you guys have any updates you'd like added to the primer, let me know and I'll take care of it for you.

[ZebraSleeves]

I've been playing Quadlaser with a traditional Ashen Ghoul sideboard for awhile to some success and I enjoy its merits. However, this list was designed before Deathrite Shaman was printed, so I am wondering if an update to the sideboard (or even maindeck) is necessary in the current meta.

-Is surgical extraction enough of a problem that it warrants six sideboard slots (3 lands, 3 Ghouls)?

-Should I have access to pithing needle/firestorm for Deathrite?

-Are the Leyline of the Voids neccessary (I never feel like mulling a good hand to find one is justifiable. But then they reanimate an Elesh Norn turn 2 and I question my decision)?

-Should I just be playing a version with a combo kill or go manaless?

All my friends that play legacy live far away from me, so I never get much playtesting. I hope some of you on this forum can help me out. Thanks.

-Zebrasleeves

[Michael Keller]

I've been playing Quadlaser with a traditional Ashen Ghoul sideboard for awhile to some success and I enjoy its merits. However, this list was designed before Deathrite Shaman was printed, so I am wondering if an update to the sideboard (or even maindeck) is necessary in the current meta.

-Is surgical extraction enough of a problem that it warrants six sideboard slots (3 lands, 3 Ghouls)?

Surgical Extraction, while always a nuisance, isn't the be-all, end-all of sideboard hate towards LED/Quadlazer Dredge decks. You can beat it with tight play and a solid sideboard. Surgical Extraction in conjunction with Snapcaster Mage isn't as popular these days as it was a year ago, although it is still a thing.


-Should I have access to pithing needle/firestorm for Deathrite?

I am working on a new Dredge brew, and I am definitely going to be trying Needle out in my sideboard. I think it's a good choice right now against Deathrite Shaman and other targeted graveyard hate.


Are the Leyline of the Voids neccessary (I never feel like mulling a good hand to find one is justifiable. But then they reanimate an Elesh Norn turn 2 and I question my decision)?

Leyline is good, and it does help shore up some of the more difficult match-ups like Reanimator. Dredge already mulligans fairly hard, and I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that mulling with the bonus of hitting a Leyline would be that bad of a deal. It's very unlikely a Reanimator player will bring in any anti-hate, with the exception of possibly an Echoing Truth or two.


Should I just be playing a version with a combo kill or go manaless?

Manaless is basically more of a combo deck than any other form of Dredge, so it's effectively one in the same.


All my friends that play legacy live far away from me, so I never get much playtesting. I hope some of you on this forum can help me out. Thanks.

-Zebrasleeves

If you ever need any advice, there are plenty of bright minds in here that can help you.

[Mindlash]

Is surgical extraction enough of a problem that it warrants six sideboard slots (3 lands, 3 Ghouls)?

As Hollywood said you can beat it with tight play though I find it easier with Ashen Ghoul. You play the 3 lands not only to support Ashen Ghouls as they are also here to support your antihate cards like Nature's Claim as well.

Although it is not the best hate card against Dredge nor is it the most annoying card to play against with Dredge it seems to be the most popular GY hate.

Before we went to Annecy this yeah I checked the sideboards from some greater tournaments to get a picture of what to prepare against:

GP Strasbourg Top 16:

3 x Canadian Threshold
2 x Death & Taxes
2 x Show and Tell
2 x Shardless BUG (4 Shaman)
1 x Merfolk
1 x Maverick (2 Ooze / 3 Shaman)
1 x BUG Delver (4 Shaman)
1 x Jund (4 Shaman)
1 x UW Mircales
1 x UWR Landstill
1 x 4 Color Shaman (4 Shaman)

SB:

14 Surgical Extraction
9 Relic of Progenitus
7 Grafdigger's Cage
6 Rest in Peace
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt

Some SCG Top 8s:

5 x Esper Stoneblade (1 mal mit 4 Shaman)
4 x Elves (4 Shaman)
3 x Jund (4 Shaman)
3 x ANT
2 x Merfolk
2 x Reanimator
2 x RUG Delver
2 x Sneak and Show
2 x Four-Color Loam
2 x BUG Delver (3 Shaman bzw. 4 Shaman)
1 x Hive Mind
1 x Maverick (2 Ooze / 3 Shaman)
1 x Bant
1 x U/W Miracles (1 RIP)
1 x RUG Cascade
1 x Deadguy Ale (4 Shaman)
1 x Omni-Tell
1 x Shardless BUG (4 Shaman)
1 x Goblins
1 x MUD
1 x TES
1 x Lands
1 x Nic Fit (1 Ooze / 1 Shaman)

SB:

32 Surgical Extraction
12 Relic of Progenitus
11 Grafdigger's Cage
9 Nihil Spellbomb
8 Leyline of the Void
5 Tormod's Crypt
4 Bojuka Bog
3 Scavanging Ooze
3 Extirpate
2 Rest in Peace


Should I have access to pithing needle/firestorm for Deathrite?

I am not a fan of cards with cmc2 in Dredge. It just seems very slow and most decks with Deathrite Shaman have access to Wasteland as well, while Dredge plays 15 lands after boarding at most. Firestorm may be a good card though. It is cmc1 and sweeps the board while also beeing and uncouterable discard outlet (discard is part of the cost). It is strongest against Merfolk because of this, but was helpful to get rid of Shamans and Ooozes from time to time. It is fun against Elves too ;)


Are the Leyline of the Voids neccessary (I never feel like mulling a good hand to find one is justifiable. But then they reanimate an Elesh Norn turn 2 and I question my decision)?

Hollywood already mentioned the "mulliganability" of Dredge but addiotionally you have to see it this way I think: If you play Dredge you only play your hand. You don't want to draw...you want to dredge most of the time. Therefore most of the cards are dead if they are not in your hand. If you want to use GY hate in Dredge: Use Leyline. You would also have to mulligan for Surgical Extractions...so why not mulligan for a card with real impact?

Other thing with Leyline in the current meta is: I don't think it is really needed. The decks you want to use it against are Dredge, Reanimator and Tin Fins and you see much of them in my meta currently. Leyline is the card I would switch to Firestorms if you want to use these (coming from the Quadlaser Board).


Should I just be playing a version with a combo kill or go manaless?

If you mean combo kill like "flashy Griselbrand/FKZ/Flayer finish in LED Dredge" I would say go LED Quadlaser or Manaless.


All my friends that play legacy live far away from me, so I never get much playtesting. I hope some of you on this forum can help me out. Thanks.

I use Cockatrice for this reason. Testing with friends who live far away after work.

Greetings Mindlash

[DarkJester]

I am not a fan of cards with cmc2 in Dredge. It just seems very slow and most decks with Deathrite Shaman have access to Wasteland as well, while Dredge plays 15 lands after boarding at most. Firestorm may be a good card though. It is cmc1 and sweeps the board while also beeing and uncouterable discard outlet (discard is part of the cost). It is strongest against Merfolk because of this, but was helpful to get rid of Shamans and Ooozes from time to time. It is fun against Elves too ;)




Greetings Mindlash

CMC 2 = PNeedle? Are you serious? I think you mean Revoker.

[tw0as]

First of all, good night everybody =)

Second, and more in-topic... The needle has a cmc of 1. Revoker is the one cmc 2.

And about the "new approaches" on Dredge, im trying this list that seems to have a bit of success and ways to deal with hate maindeck (other than the almighty Cabal Therapy)
Links to the lists i'm talking about:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11132&iddeck=81341
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11134&iddeck=81357
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11214&iddeck=81884

I'm currently testing the first one with a few variations on sideboard for a big Legacy event i have next month.

Greetings from Buenos Aires!
Keep dredgin'..

[Mindlash]

CMC 2 = PNeedle? Are you serious? I think you mean Revoker.

Yeah you are totally right. I got confused with Revoker. This happens while writing at work :D
Ok it is a usable card this way. I still don't know why to board against Shamans, bit at least it is castable without problems :)

Greetings Mindlash

[HammafistRoob]

When's the last time somebody tried Stifle as antihate?

[Michael Keller]

When's the last time somebody tried Stifle as antihate?

Given that few if any people will actually board artifact hate in against you, Pithing Needle seems to be much better at stopping those cards in their tracks. There's aren't many triggered abilities Dredge cares about dealing with, as opposed to the countless activated abilities of things like Crypt, Relic, Deathrite Shaman, etc.

And while semi-corner case, Stifle can also be countered with Spell Pierce (and to a lesser extent Flusterstorm), so I don't really think you're extracting a lot of value out of it here. Needle - if resolved - shuts down potentially a full compliment of any of an opponents' anti-hate - while staying on the board.

[Michael Keller]

Got a really cool new list for this coming weekend's big event. Definitely a deviation from the norm.

[HammafistRoob]

1)Given that few if any people will actually board artifact hate in against you, Pithing Needle seems to be much better at stopping those cards in their tracks. There's aren't many triggered abilities Dredge cares about dealing with, as opposed to the countless activated abilities of things like Crypt, Relic, Deathrite Shaman, etc.

2)And while semi-corner case, Stifle can also be countered with Spell Pierce (and to a lesser extent Flusterstorm), so I don't really think you're extracting a lot of value out of it here. Needle - if resolved - shuts down potentially a full compliment of any of an opponents' anti-hate - while staying on the board.

1) Huh? Stifle counters activated abilities too bro, how else would it hit fetchies? It hits every hate except for Cage, Leyline, and Surgical. Also it only counters half of RiP. In theory, it seems like stopping the first hate piece should give you enough time to reach critical mass.

I just think it deserves another look is all. Looking forward to your new tech, as always.

[DarkJester]

1) Huh? Stifle counters activated abilities too bro, how else would it hit fetchies? It hits every hate except for Cage, Leyline, and Surgical. Also it only counters half of RiP. In theory, it seems like stopping the first hate piece should give you enough time to reach critical mass.

I just think it deserves another look is all. Looking forward to your new tech, as always.
I think you misunderstood Hollywood here. He didn't say that Stifle doesn't hit activated abilities, I think he means that you shouldn't care about many triggered abilities (except maybe one half of RiP), so Needle (which can't deal with triggered abilities) has the same function, while staying on board and beeing proactive (which is almost always better in Dredge). Not to mention that Stifle doesn't play well with LED.

[Angelteg]

First of all, good night everybody =)

Second, and more in-topic... The needle has a cmc of 1. Revoker is the one cmc 2.

And about the "new approaches" on Dredge, im trying this list that seems to have a bit of success and ways to deal with hate maindeck (other than the almighty Cabal Therapy)
Links to the lists i'm talking about:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11132&iddeck=81341
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11134&iddeck=81357
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11214&iddeck=81884

I'm currently testing the first one with a few variations on sideboard for a big Legacy event i have next month.

Greetings from Buenos Aires!
Keep dredgin'..

I have been playing 2 firestorms main deck for the last few months and have absolutely loved it. there have been a number of games I have had Turn 1 - Gemstone mine, go. he plays a DRS, I EOT Firestorm to kill his DRS and start dredging Turn 2. Loving it.

[Final Fortune]

First of all, good night everybody =)

Second, and more in-topic... The needle has a cmc of 1. Revoker is the one cmc 2.

And about the "new approaches" on Dredge, im trying this list that seems to have a bit of success and ways to deal with hate maindeck (other than the almighty Cabal Therapy)
Links to the lists i'm talking about:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11132&iddeck=81341
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11134&iddeck=81357
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11214&iddeck=81884

I'm currently testing the first one with a few variations on sideboard for a big Legacy event i have next month.

Greetings from Buenos Aires!
Keep dredgin'..

Undiscovered Paradise is a HUGE mistake in Dredge, turn 3 Cephalid Coliseum activations vs 3 points of damage is not an acceptable alternative.

Firestorm is legit, I usually SB Firestorm but considering it destroys fair decks and it bypasses counter spells I don't really see a reason not to play it MD, especially if you need the SB space, with the exception that I don't think it's nearly as good in LED Dredge's MD as it is in Mana Dredge's MD because of your 8 vs 11 gold lands pre-board.

@Hollywood; No, I'm pretty sure Dread Returns in the MD are always bad in LED Dredge or Mana Dredge. You do not need more than 3 Ichorid in order to win game one, and unless you're cutting a Cabal Therapy game one and replacing it with a Dread Return since they have roughly equivalent functions all you're doing is cutting a Breakthrough, a Golgari Thug, a Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe or a Land from the deck for a "win more" card. It isn't even a "win now" card without a second Dread Return and dedicated target, that's 5% more of your entire deck that's completely dead in hand for questionable MD utility.

[JPoJohnson]

Got a really cool new list for this coming weekend's big event. Definitely a deviation from the norm.

How did your new list end up treating you? (:

[Michael Keller]

How did your new list end up treating you? (:

I'll be playing it this coming weekend.

[Michael Keller]

@Hollywood; No, I'm pretty sure Dread Returns in the MD are always bad in LED Dredge or Mana Dredge. You do not need more than 3 Ichorid in order to win game one, and unless you're cutting a Cabal Therapy game one and replacing it with a Dread Return since they have roughly equivalent functions all you're doing is cutting a Breakthrough, a Golgari Thug, a Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe or a Land from the deck for a "win more" card. It isn't even a "win now" card without a second Dread Return and dedicated target, that's 5% more of your entire deck that's completely dead in hand for questionable MD utility.

I disagree.

In my experience, Dread Return as a one-of boasts a marginally negligible drawback in first games and serves as a perfectly reasonable win condition in the event your Ichorids are exiled. You can't always solely rely on them to win games, which is where Narcomoeba in conjunction with Cabal Therapy and Bridge from Below becomes your secondary line of play. What you're doing is generating advantage by creating tokens, which is facilitated faster with a triple-sacrifice outlet built into one card - in addition to giving you another monster.

Utility aside, playing one in the main is entirely acceptable. As for being a "win more" card: I just disagree with that term all together. You're going to at times have lots of dead cards in your hand over the course of a game with Dredge (i.e. Narcomoeba, Bridge from Below) - which all sooner or later find their way into your graveyard. Dredge - especially in the first game - can't always rely on Ichorids to win games. Dread Return will generate a huge board advantage with multiple Bridges, in addition to bringing back a potentially game-ending creature.

Seriously, I've seen lines of play where you only hit a single Narcomoeba with three Bridges, flashback a Therapy knocking out some removal like a Swords or something to that effect and follow it up with a Dread Return. The deck deploys a strategy of mowing through itself like a buzz-saw, so I highly doubt you can justify playing a single a card as effective in this archetype like Dread Return as being "win more" when it obviously is one of the most powerful spells in the entire deck - main or side - at a reasonable quantity.

Also, how do you figure you need a second Dread Return and a dedicated target to win you the game? You just run out a single Flame-kin Zealot and that will generally do it in one shot.

[tw0as]

I want to share my list with you guys. I have 2 big tournaments in my city coming up and i want to be prepared as much as i can, so i want to submit the deck to critiques, opinions, etc .


4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Breaktrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Firestorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return

SIDEBOARD

4 Nature's Claim
2 Pithing Needle
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Dread Return
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Nether Shadow

[Final Fortune]

I disagree.

In my experience, Dread Return as a one-of boasts a marginally negligible drawback in first games and serves as a perfectly reasonable win condition in the event your Ichorids are exiled. You can't always solely rely on them to win games, which is where Narcomoeba in conjunction with Cabal Therapy and Bridge from Below becomes your secondary line of play. What you're doing is generating advantage by creating tokens, which is facilitated faster with a triple-sacrifice outlet built into one card - in addition to giving you another monster.

Utility aside, playing one in the main is entirely acceptable. As for being a "win more" card: I just disagree with that term all together. You're going to at times have lots of dead cards in your hand over the course of a game with Dredge (i.e. Narcomoeba, Bridge from Below) - which all sooner or later find their way into your graveyard. Dredge - especially in the first game - can't always rely on Ichorids to win games. Dread Return will generate a huge board advantage with multiple Bridges, in addition to bringing back a potentially game-ending creature.

Seriously, I've seen lines of play where you only hit a single Narcomoeba with three Bridges, flashback a Therapy knocking out some removal like a Swords or something to that effect and follow it up with a Dread Return. The deck deploys a strategy of mowing through itself like a buzz-saw, so I highly doubt you can justify playing a single a card as effective in this archetype like Dread Return as being "win more" when it obviously is one of the most powerful spells in the entire deck - main or side - at a reasonable quantity.

Also, how do you figure you need a second Dread Return and a dedicated target to win you the game? You just run out a single Flame-kin Zealot and that will generally do it in one shot.

1 Dread Return isn't going to be terrible, but it isn't going to be great either. I'm of the opinion that Dredge should concentrate on discarding, drawing and dredging in that order, the cards that function only after being discarded or dredged are of the least priority, and they should be minimized as much as possible. Obviously you don't win the game with 3 Ichorid but with Bridge from Below, my point was 3 Ichorid is more than enough to provide a reliable, redundant and recurrable activation of Bride from Below and that Dread Return was unnecessary. You can't just add 1 Flame Kin Zealot and call it a day, you have to be able to reliably have a Dread Return and dedicated target in place in order to make the investment in deck space worth while and even then it's not clear whether or not winning now guarantees a higher win % than winning inevitably when the cards you're cutting for Dread Return and friends are lands, outlets, draw etc.

Dredge is a strange deck because people don't actually understand what cards and card ratios matter, they just get all Timmy when they can recur their Griselbrand into Flame Kin Zealot and ultra combo where they've already won and never think about whether or not it was over kill compared to mindlessly mulliganing a "no lander" after they've fluffed ~10-15% of their deck on the flashy stuff.

The 11th land or the 12th Dredger are just so much more important for winning games than the 1xDread Return.

[Michael Keller]

Playing the new list tomorrow barring any setbacks.

I think you'll all like it.

[JPoJohnson]

Playing the new list tomorrow barring any setbacks.

I think you'll all like it.

I haven't followed your lists in many months, but are you still keen on manaless or have you moved on?

[Michael Keller]

I haven't followed your lists in many months, but are you still keen on manaless or have you moved on?

This variation of Dredge does in fact have mana sources.

[chlb]

Playing the new list tomorrow barring any setbacks.

I think you'll all like it.

Looking forward to report and decklist.

[Que]

I disagree.

In my experience, Dread Return as a one-of boasts a marginally negligible drawback in first games and serves as a perfectly reasonable win condition in the event your Ichorids are exiled. You can't always solely rely on them to win games, which is where Narcomoeba in conjunction with Cabal Therapy and Bridge from Below becomes your secondary line of play. What you're doing is generating advantage by creating tokens, which is facilitated faster with a triple-sacrifice outlet built into one card - in addition to giving you another monster.

Utility aside, playing one in the main is entirely acceptable. As for being a "win more" card: I just disagree with that term all together. You're going to at times have lots of dead cards in your hand over the course of a game with Dredge (i.e. Narcomoeba, Bridge from Below) - which all sooner or later find their way into your graveyard. Dredge - especially in the first game - can't always rely on Ichorids to win games. Dread Return will generate a huge board advantage with multiple Bridges, in addition to bringing back a potentially game-ending creature.

Seriously, I've seen lines of play where you only hit a single Narcomoeba with three Bridges, flashback a Therapy knocking out some removal like a Swords or something to that effect and follow it up with a Dread Return. The deck deploys a strategy of mowing through itself like a buzz-saw, so I highly doubt you can justify playing a single a card as effective in this archetype like Dread Return as being "win more" when it obviously is one of the most powerful spells in the entire deck - main or side - at a reasonable quantity.



I'm agreed with Hollywood here. I mainly use it as a utility slot. It basically gives the deck another angle of attack and I believe that to be important. As stated already it works as the best sec outlet which allows you to generate a abundant amount of tokens from a single source. There have also been corner cases where my Cabal Therapies have been removed and had no other way to generate tokens outside of letting my ichorids die which may be a lot slower and finite as well. With DR in your 75 you still have the option to reach critical mass and put the game out of reach for your opp in a single turn. Lastly DR'ing a Troll (assuming this is your only target) is not too shabby either as there are still decks that cannot deal with it like Jund, RUG, among others; remember he still has the ability to regenerate as well which maybe relevant in some cases. :laugh:

I play traditional quadlazer outside of cutting a single breakthrough for the Dread Return. While Breakthrough is the most powerful draw spell we have its also the one that leaves us most vulnerable leaving us pretty much all in.

[Vesper Ghoul]

This variation of Dredge does in fact have mana sources.

I wish you would share what you are doing with your list for tomorrow.

[Final Fortune]

I'm agreed with Hollywood here. I mainly use it as a utility slot. It basically gives the deck another angle of attack and I believe that to be important. As stated already it works as the best sec outlet which allows you to generate a abundant amount of tokens from a single source. There have also been corner cases where my Cabal Therapies have been removed and had no other way to generate tokens outside of letting my ichorids die which may be a lot slower and finite as well. With DR in your 75 you still have the option to reach critical mass and put the game out of reach for your opp in a single turn. Lastly DR'ing a Troll (assuming this is your only target) is not too shabby either as there are still decks that cannot deal with it like Jund, RUG, among others; remember he still has the ability to regenerate as well which maybe relevant in some cases. :laugh:

I play traditional quadlazer outside of cutting a single breakthrough for the Dread Return. While Breakthrough is the most powerful draw spell we have its also the one that leaves us most vulnerable leaving us pretty much all in.

Getting Ichorid or Cabal Therapy RFGed is not a consideration game 1, with the exception of Deathrite Shaman who only removes 1 card at a time, I think everbody has agreed a post-board Dread Return package is fine ever since Surgical Extraction was printed. I mean, there are corner cases for every card where it could be good, my point is that it's just unnecessary and contributes to mulligans more than it does anything useful game 1.

[raikenxy]

its really late and I just got back from the star city open in sommerset, safe to say it was huge there was ike 500 ppl there and ten rounds of legacy. Went 7-3 with dredge and am rlly proud of the finish as it was the largest event i've competed in and played generally well all day.

My list

dredgers (11)

3 thug
4 troll
4 stinkweed

Creatures (13)

4 narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
1 Flayer


Sorcery (16)

3 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal therapy

Enchantment/Artifact (8)

4 LED
4 Bridge from Below

Land (13)

4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Colisseum
4 Gemstone
1 Tarnished Citadel

Sideboard

4 nether shadow
3 natures claim
2 Firestorm
3 pithing needle
1 elesh norn
1 iona
1 ancient grudge

I've posted my list on here before, its changed a bit now as i now i run two dread returns and flayer with 4 therapies main board where as griselbrand has been taken out completely. It's too late to do a full report but tommorow when i come back from work i'll give as many details as i remember about the games. On the day my match ups went

Jund: 2-1
Shardless BUG: 2-1
Reanimator: 2-0
RIP Miracles: 0-2 :(
Spanish Inquisition: 0-2 (0.0 this deck is sweet btw haha, just stupid turn one combo kill galore)
Jund: 2-1
Deathblade: 2-1
Deathblade: 1-2
Reanimator: 2-1
Goblins: 2-1

overall it was a really solid day of dredging, got 55th in final standings, beating reanimator twice was pretty fucking sweet too, i'll report the details tommorow

[tw0as]

its really late and I just got back from the star city open in sommerset, safe to say it was huge there was ike 500 ppl there and ten rounds of legacy. Went 7-3 with dredge and am rlly proud of the finish as it was the largest event i've competed in and played generally well all day.

My list

dredgers (11)

3 thug
4 troll
4 stinkweed

Creatures (13)

4 narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
1 Flayer


Sorcery (16)

3 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal therapy

Enchantment/Artifact (8)

4 LED
4 Bridge from Below

Land (13)

4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Colisseum
4 Gemstone
1 Tarnished Citadel

Sideboard

4 nether shadow
3 natures claim
2 Firestorm
3 pithing needle
1 elesh norn
1 iona
1 ancient grudge

I've posted my list on here before, its changed a bit now as i now i run two dread returns and flayer with 4 therapies main board where as griselbrand has been taken out completely. It's too late to do a full report but tommorow when i come back from work i'll give as many details as i remember about the games. On the day my match ups went

Jund: 2-1
Shardless BUG: 2-1
Reanimator: 2-0
RIP Miracles: 0-2 :(
Spanish Inquisition: 0-2 (0.0 this deck is sweet btw haha, just stupid turn one combo kill galore)
Jund: 2-1
Deathblade: 2-1
Deathblade: 1-2
Reanimator: 2-1
Goblins: 2-1

overall it was a really solid day of dredging, got 55th in final standings, beating reanimator twice was pretty fucking sweet too, i'll report the details tommorow

Congratulations dude ! Can you share your experiences with Pithing Needle in the SB ?

[Kayradis]

I'm grabbing the deck this Thursday (thanks to mini1337!) in order to get some diversity and play with something different than Elves! or MonoU Omni-Tell (the 2 main decks we have sleeved at all time in my cardpool).

Im looking to understand what's the mulligan strategy with dredge. What's keepable and what's something I should ship back hoping to get a better 5/6.

[chlb]

Im looking to understand what's the mulligan strategy with dredge. What's keepable and what's something I should ship back hoping to get a better 5/6.

I think the quote from Parcher in the primer says it best (emphasis mine):

"The most difficult obstacle to overcome when learning to play this deck is the situations and frequency with which you must mulligan. Not only are there specific needs for your opening hand, but they may change depending on your opponent, what game it is, and who is on the play. As a very general rule, there are four things you are looking for in your opening hand; Mana, Discard, Dredger, and Draw. Some cards count as both, but only in conjunction with others. I've found that in most cases if you don't have at least three of these four requirements that you must mulligan. If you have multiple draw spells, or are playing what you know is a good match/slow deck, this can vary a little. Some combinations such as LED+Coliseum, or LED+DA allow you to break this since Lion's Eye Diamond acts as Mana and Discard, but this is an exception. I can't stress enough how important it is to force yourself to mulligan hands without these needs, and to then learn when you can risk breaking that rule."

Don't be afraid to go down to four or even three cards. I've seen dredge mull to three on the play getting LED, Faithless Looting and Golgari Grave-Troll (and then proceeding to win from there).

[Kayradis]

I knew Dredge had the ability to mull, but down to three? That's pretty good I have to agree.
I know Manaless Dredge always wants to be on the draw, but should I use the same idea playing dredge?

[chlb]

I know Manaless Dredge always wants to be on the draw, but should I use the same idea playing dredge?

Manaless wants to be on the draw and ideally keep their opening seven so they can get a dredger to the yard using the cleanup step.

With the LED version I'd say you almost certainly want to go first if given a choice, because you have multiple spells that let you discard on your first turn. And if your opening hand looks bad you can just mulligan, a luxury Manaless does not like to do that much.

[Kayradis]

Thanks for the hints! Appreciated!

[Final Fortune]

Thanks for the hints! Appreciated!

It's debateable, I've always chose to draw with LED dredge after winning the coin flip. I'm not sure how great it is post-DRS, but it definitely added consistency and explosiveness to the deck when you could either straight DDD or have ******** for Coliseum with LED immediately.

[raikenxy]

Congratulations dude ! Can you share your experiences with Pithing Needle in the SB ?

hey dude sorry just saw this lol. And honestly i think pithing needle does have utility, however I barely needed it all weekend. In testing i bring it in against bug to stop nihil spellbomb, as you can just make deathrite shaman irrelevent by just dredging a shit load of cards. Nihil spellbomb seems to be the artifact hate of choice at the moment from what i saw this weekend and my past tournament at jupiter games. and pithing needle of course also can deathrite shaman if you have multiples.

[Michael Keller]

All:

Keep an eye out for a new primer in Developmental for a new version of Dredge I've been working on.

[Holly]

Soo..spamming F5 all night long?

[raikenxy]

Hey everyone, finally got some time to finish a tournament report from last weeks open in sommerset. Went 7-3 over the weekend with dredge and was pretty pleased with the result over the weeked. I've posted my list on the source before, the only main change was finally putting griselbrand into the trade binder and opting to just run 1 flayer and 2 dread returns in the maindeck and Iona/Elesh in the sideboard.

Round 1
Jund: 2-1

I was starting this game out really nervous as it was my first big event, a slight case of the nerves. I saw my opening seven frowned, mulled to six, then to five, then to a four which had careful study, troll, land, bridge...i kept and hoped for the best. My opponent kept his seven and open with a badlands and a thoughtseize, he takes my study and i frown. I draw a card and can't do anything. He plays a deathrite, eventually gets two bloodbraid elfs and destroys me, im really never in this game and he takes game one.

Game 2: I side in two firestorms and two pithing needles for deathrite shaman and that's about it. On the play i have a hand with led, troll, breakthrough, faithless looting, city of brass, stinkweed imp, and bridge. He mulls to five, his face showshe doesn'tl ike it at all. I go for broke and flayer him on the 2nd turn.

Game3: He mulls to five trying to find hate. He plays a turn one deathrite shaman. I play pithing needle on his shaman, he drops a land then passes. I play a land, careful study pitching two trolls, then cast breakthrough, then flayer him. Pretty quick win.

Shardless BUG: 2-1

This game i get paired against a guy who openly admitted didnt play legacy much. I thank the pairings for this one, i win the die roll and keep a hand with land, putrid imp, troll, stinkweed, ichorid, land, study. I play putrid imp pass the turn, he plays thoughtseize, takes my study and passes. I pitch my troll, imp, and ichorid to the yard. Bring back ichrod, dredge six getting two bridges, swing for 5 and get two zombies. He plays an underground sea, suspends ancestral visions and casts a deathrite, the only relevant turn he had. I slow rolled this game and got there with zombie beatdown.

Game 2: I mull to five, keeping a bad hand, and just die to deathrite shaman and nihil spellbomb.

Game three: I draw the nut, dredge about 40 cards into my graveyard, cabal therapy his nihil spellbombs, he had 2 in hand, then flayer him the turn after.


Reanimator: 2-0

I remember feeling pretty pumped about the two straight wins. Being my first big tourni i didn't want to get two excited but was glad i was doing well so far. As my opnonent sits down were shuffling and he accidentlly drops a ponder and an underground sea, i think he's on some form of storm deck from this. I lose the roll, keep a hand with careful study, breakthrough, putrid imp, troll, troll, gemstone, cephalid colisseum. He turn one thoughtseizes me... to which i have a fear that he's definatly playing reanimator... like the worst match up ever lol. He passes after seeing my hand, and i play my gemstone and my putrid imp. I pass, he fetches for a sea, plays entomb on GRISELBRAND and reanimates it... i think... wtf... why the fuck did he do that.... He passes the turn, i pitch my dredger, play breakthrough... he activates griselbrand to find Force and forces the breakthrough. He untaps, plays a land, swings, and passes. I dredge, play my coliseum and dredge some more. I am able to return some ichorids, swing at him to get him to 1 life and threating death the next turn. He untaps, plays every ponder/brainstorm he has in hand, swings to get to 8, then draws seven hoping to find elesh norn and an animation spell. He can't and scoops... fuck yeah.

Game 2: I keep a full seven with two studies, a breakthrough, an led, stinkweed, and two lands. He mulls to five, his face showing he doesn't like it, but keeps. He plays a fetch and passes. I play careful study to bait a force of will... he thinks long and hard, then pitches brainstorm to force and counters. He draws a card, plays careful study, pitches a griselbrand and passes. I then go ape shit and play with myself for the next five minutes, creating a zombie horde and flayering him... beating reanimator is awesome.

RIP Miracles: 0-2 :(

I'm on a big hype train to this point as i'm 3-0, playing at table 2. The guy i get paired with is really nice and we joke around. I keep hand with putrid imp and some dredgers and keep. He keeps a full seven and is on the play. He plays an island and passes. I smile and ask if he's on omnitell as i dropp my putrid imp and pass the turn, he laughs says not quite as he draws his card and casts RIP... - _ -

Game two: I keep the nut hand and he mulls to six. I cast breakthrough after cracking led, and WHIFF... like whiffed hard... dredged to three narcomeobas no birdges and no ichorids or dread returns or therapies or anything. Afterwards he just casts RIP and my narcomoeba beat down just can't get there through his angel army.

Spanish Inquisition: 0-2 (0.0 this deck is sweet btw haha, just stupid turn one combo kill galore)

I get turn one'd both games... even after he mulls to five game one too.

Jund: 2-1

Game 1: I start to feel sad now as I'm 3-2 with a full day left. I'm tilted form the last two games and no I'm on the bubble of dropping out. The guy i'm playing isn't exactly the nciest around but it doesnt matter. Game one I mull to five, keep a shaky hand i normally woulda thrown back if i was thinking clearly and he drops a deathrite shaman. I'm never in this game at all as his hymn to tourach his two enablers i draw and my dredgers are stuck in my hand long enough for him to kill me with an elf and tarmogoyf.

Game two: I am on the play and don't board anything in at all. I keep a nut hand, and turn one him. I cabal therapied for nihil spellbomb, didn't see it, and figured he just didnt have it since he snapped kept his first seven.

Game three: I have a hand full of cantrips and an led, he drops a turn one nihil spellbomb... im tight at this but don't let it show. I have nothing boarded in for this at all and realize i'm in deep shit. I begin playing every cantrip spell i have, filling my graveyard with lands and used draw spells over a period of four or five turns. i hard cast a narcomoeba play a careful study and pitch an ichorid and a birdge to my graveyard which is filled with about 15 useless cards... mostly lands and draw spells. He has me at like 5 life, and swings with a 4/5 goyf, after i declare my blocker, he nukes my graveyard with his spellbomb and casts another goyf... On my turn i have one card in hand, faithless looting, a city of brass and a cephalid coliseum as my lands... and hope to god i get the best top deck of my life. I draw an LED... cast my led, play faithless looting which draws TWO TROLLS... pitch my two trolls then crack the LED and flashback faithless looting. I dredge twelve cards deep revealing TWO BRIDGES and TWO MOEBA'S... im saved. I pass the turn after that, realizing i might just win. My oponent draws, then passes. opting not to swing with his goyfs. I dredge six, reavling the first dread return... and then activate the cephalid coliseum. I dredge two trolls, then a sitnkweed, and the fourth and fifth cards of the stinkweed imp were the flayer and second dread return. I flayer him that turn and win.

Deathblade: 2-0

I'm amped from stealing the game three before this game and still have a chance to do well. Game one I have the Nut, and create about 8 zombies on turn one after eating his hand . He topdecks a deathrite and plays it. I bring back three ichorids and swing away for lethal.

Game two he goes first and plays a turn one deathrite. I play careful study to bait force and he forces it. Next turn he drops a fetch and leaves deathrite open, opting not to play a two drop. I top an LED and that’s all she wrote for that game.

Deathblade: 1-2

Game 1: I draw the nut and flayer him on turn two.
Game 2: He gets a turn one deathrite, plows the putrid imp I play and slowly eats my graveyard until he gets batterskull online.
Game three : This game I’m pretty steamed over as I should have won this game if I wasn’t such a moron. I keep a hand with breakthrough, study, cephalid coliseum and abunch of dredgers. He mulls to six and im on the play. I play carefull study, draw and LED and a bridge then pitch my redgers. He plays deathrite then passes the turn. I assume he doesn’t have nihil spellbomb from this play and go all in here, dredging about forty cards but only revealing two cabal therapy. I therapy him naming something stupid like confidant or something as im fairly sure I just kill him next turn, he reveals a brainstorm, a nihil spellbomb, and a detention sphere. I realize I fucked up, as he brainstorms in response to my second therapy, hiding the bomb. I get the detention sphere and pass with 9 zombies on board and three ichorids in my yard. He draws the spellbomb and nukes me. I draw getting a flayer, then swing for 18, he’s at two. He then plays another detention sphere he found off the brainstorm and I lose to jace five turns later after he exiles my zombies.
Reanimator: 2-1

I’m sad at being 5-3 now. I would have dropped but we were two rounds away from finishing so I figured I’d keep playing. Me and my opponent get to chatting about how our tournaments have bene going before we play and he’s a nice dude from what I can make out. He plays a swamp and ends the turn. I think he’s on some form of black control deck or zombardment and play a putrid imp. In response he entombs a griselbrand. Reanimates the next turn. Then forces any draw spell I play the next two turns and I die.

Game two: I ask him why he didn’t get elesh norn, and he said he wasn’t sure if it killed me outright like it does manaless… I chuckle and told him another reanimator player did the same thing to me earlier in the day and that not getting elesh norn is a misplay, but he won either way so whatever. I keep a solid hand and he mulls to six. I play putrid imp and pass. He plays thoughtseize and takes one of the breakthrough’s I had in hand. I pitch the grave torll, dredge six, play breakthrough and dredge a lot getting two moeba’s on board with two bridges in the yard. I Therapy his to oblivion and then kill him the turn after with zombies as his topdeck is just a lotus petal.

Game three: He mulls to five, shakes his head then keeps. He thoughtseizes me, taking the careful study out of my hand which was my only enabler… I had troll, stinkweed, ichorid, gemstone, LED, LED left. I top deck a faithless looting like a boss on my draw step then go ape shit. I play both led’s the play faithless looting cracking one of my LED’s to pitch my hand. He forces it, has one card in hand, and I continue to go forty cards deep. I flayer him that turn and go on to round ten.
Goblins: 2-1

Game 1: I mull to four, play a land then careful study hoping to find a dredger off the top which I don’t. He plays lackey then passes. I draw getting a looting, cast it and find nothing. He then attack gets siege gang commander online and I can’t do anything relevant.

Game 2: I turn one him with flayer

Game 3: I turn two him with elesh norn lol.

[Dredge]

Looking for some constructive thought on my sideboard primarily, but will also take input on the main board.

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Ichorid
2 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
3 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Griselbrand
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

Sideboard
1x Winds of Change
2x Wear // Tear
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Firestorm
1x Nature's Claim
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
1x Angel of Despair
1x MindBreak Trap
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria


This is my result of most recent FNM Legacy

Round 1 Belchoir 2-0

Game 1
They turn 1 Empty the Warrens for 16 Goblin Tokens. Having 2 turns I didn't scoop because I had a pretty potent opening hand. I managed to get 2 Narcomoebas out with 1 Bridge in yard. He swung with everything. I didn't block any and went to 2 life, reason being is although I could have traded and gotten 2 zombies I wold have lost my Bridges and chance to win with a 1 shot since he had no blockers. Comes to me and I'm able to dredge deep enough to 2 more Bridges and Flamekin

Game 2
I mull to 3. Narcomoeba, Cehpilad, Mindbreak Trap. He trys to Turn 1 and I trap his Belchoir. Slow going, but I managed to beat him down with 2 Narcos and 2 Putrids.

Round 2 TES 2-1

Game 1
I'm on the play. Putrid Imp Go. He plays land LED and passes turn. I dredge a bit getting 1 therapy, 1 narco, and 2 bridges. Go to cabal therapy him and force out a brainstorm. I know he is on TES and not Ant, but I'm not sure what to call between rites or rituals since I was assuming he put the win cons back on top. I name ponder figuring that if it wasn't win cons he put back on top he would need to shuffle some how and dig further for the missing pieces. I named correctly, but as assumed the win con was on top and he wins next turn.

Game 2
I turn 1 LED breakthrough gravetroll. I tear is hand apart with 3 Therapies and it's just a matter of beating him down with zombies and Ichorids.

Game 3
He turn 1 chrome mox's a ponder and then casts ponder. He plays a land and passes. I turn 1 therapy on him. He hesitates to say ok so I name Brainstorm and it hits. I drop LED and crack to dredge a bit. I hit a narcomoeba and clean out the infernal tutor in his hand. Next turn I Iona naming black and beat down next turn. (funny thing after is he burning wishes for Chain of Vapors and hits Iona LOL)

Round 3 Jund 1-2

Game 1
A lot of back and forth he has sylvan library out but I keep a lot of pressure on so he's throwing deathrites in the way leaving BoB out unless he gets a 2nd. I end up losing the game for myself because he is at 5 with bob out. He needs another land and has a fetch, but can't crack it since bob trigger happens before library. Mistakenly I swing in and give him a way to kill bob. After that I just can't out race deathrite with a narcomoeba.

Game 2
Play patiently an firestorm both his deathrites at the end of his turn 2 before going off.

Game 3
Get's deathrite out. I go Putrid Imp. Next turn he goes wasteland and I'm done. Wasn't able to get back in the game fast enough with deathrite eating my only dredger.

Round 4 Affinity 2-1

Game 1
I use Putrid imp tricks to block his Thopter with cranial (discard give flying, block discard give threshold) I get a narcomoeba off dredge to block the signal pest. He can't get the bodies to beat back at me.

Game 2
I firestorm some of his guys and I cabal therapy looking for graveyard hate and see none. He top decks tormads and I can't stop Etched Champion

Game 3
Therapy for protection and see no graveyard hate so I Elesh Norn turn 2.

Overall 3-1
Split Top 4.

Thanks for the feed back!

[Que]

After not having played dredge in a tournament for a while I decided it was time to run it back at the local. There were 54 players with 6 rounds cut to top 8. Made top 8 and got 3rd overall piloting the same list as before... Quadlazer (-1 Breakthrough, +1 Dread Return).

Sideboard:
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Ancient Grudge
3x Ashen Ghoul
2x Tarnished Citadel
1x Undiscovered Paradise
4x Nature's Claim

The Rounds went as followed:

Round 1: Death & Taxes (2-0)
Round 2: MUD (2-0)
Round 3: Goblins (1-2)
Round 4: Elves (2-1)
Round 5: Junk (2-0)
Round 6: Sneak Attack (ID)

Overall Record 4-1-1 and was 5th seed going into top 8 and would face off against 4th place Goblins whom I had lost to in the swiss. I do get my revenge though and take round 1 of top 8 2-0. In the semis I was paired against Maverick losing game 1, taking game , and ultimately getting demolished game 3. I did make it out of there with a Volcanic Island and Scalding tarn for my troubles. Overall it was a great event and I enjoyed playing this deck again. Good times.

I'll fill in more details as I recollect lol.

[Mr. Froggy]

I built Manaless Dredge on MTGO and IRL, and I fell in love with it. :)

It's weird that a combo deck has a good game vs control since there's no interaction between the decks. :P

[Que]

I built Manaless Dredge on MTGO and IRL, and I fell in love with it. :)

It's weird that a combo deck has a good game vs control since there's no interaction between the decks. :P

Manaless is a different beast all together in a way. It really can be more explosive at times than traditional Dredge with its bountiful amount of recursive creatures in Ichorid and Nether Shadows to really push through 1 of the 4 Dread Returns in the deck. But then again it suffers from almost having no option to mulligan even if you're hand is a bit slow. And being even a bit slow in this format means you fall behind really quick.

On another note. I'm thinking of switching up my sideboard. At this point I really don't like the Leylines. I seriously can't remember the last time I boarded that in. I would much rather have some combination of Pithing Needle and Firestorm even if it means rolling over to the Reanimator matchup. If I did wanna shore it up though I would probably stick a Coffin Purge somewhere in there; flashback means it doesn't disrupt my overall plan and if I open with it its a nice surprise being an instant. Not to mention some recent reanimator lists are eschewing the use of Daze over Lotus Petal which means the only real way they're going to stop it is with Force.

Pithing Needle seems really good shutting down things like Knight of the Reliquary (searches up Bajuka Bog), Sneak Attack, DRS, which are things I care about more or less while still having the ability to hit artifact hate like Tormond's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb, Relic of Progenitus,etc..

Firestorm is one I go back and forth with. Its an uncounterable discard outlet that can wipe your opponents board in a pinch. However, I have reservations about the card sometimes because its a bit of a Nonbo when u have to pitch one of your bridges. And I just simply think wiping the board doesn't play into the overall gameplan of dredge. were not really a control deck. That and its a one shot deal. You really do need something meaningful to follow it up with. So I guess I could consider one copy or two.

[Mr. Froggy]

Manaless is a different beast all together in a way. It really can be more explosive at times than traditional Dredge with its bountiful amount of recursive creatures in Ichorid and Nether Shadows to really push through 1 of the 4 Dread Returns in the deck. But then again it suffers from almost having no option to mulligan even if you're hand is a bit slow. And being even a bit slow in this format means you fall behind really quick.

I did notice this while playing on MTGO, but Turn 2 wins are not rare (unless you do like me and click the wrong dude to Dread Return...), I understand what you mean though, some hands I would love to mulligan but its not in the deck's nature to.

Should I have posted in the Manaless Dredge thread though?

[Holly]

Still waiting Hollywood :)

Took Dredge out for a 20-people-tournament today. Went 4-1 playing Quadlaser with 1 DR and 2 Firestorms maindeck.
Won vs Doomsday 2-0 (G1 I keep a slow hand with 2 Therapies since I know hes on combo - he mulls to 5).
M2 vs Merfolk 2-1
M3 vs Maverick 1-2 .. G1 I win easily, G2 I draw ~30 cards without finding a single dredger and die. G3 I cast Firestorm to remove his T1 mother of runes, flashbacking therapy naming Ooze and am prepared to go off next turn with coliseum activation but he has a Rest in Peace and I scoop.
M4 vs Maverick 2-0
M5 vs UR-Pyromancer/Nivmagus/burn 2-0.
Won 75% of my games, unfortunately I had the worst upscore of the 3 people going 4-1 thus placing as nr 3.

[nevilshute]

Hi everybody, first time poster in the Dredge-thread :)

I started playing legacy roughly a year ago. I play at my LGS every week and we average around 30 players. Back when I first started there'd usually be 1 or 2 dredge players most weeks. Naturally, new to the format, Dredge (along with storm-combo) was one of the worst decks to face as I didn't understand half of what was going on.

Anyway, a long time has passed and I have since then picked up storm myself and enjoy it immensely. Recently I've been toying around with the notion of building a dredge deck as I own most of the cards anyway. However, there are now hardly ever any Dredge players at my LGS. I also practically never see Dredge place in SCG-opens. So I guess my question is: How is Dredge positioned in today's Deathrite Shaman infested meta. Is it still a beast of a deck in the right hands or are there simply too many hostile maindecked cards these days?

It seems like a hard deck to play, or at least quite complicated and as such it feels like it would be similar to the challenge of learning storm (not game-plan wise, of course). I'd be quite interested in learning the deck, but maybe not so much if it's just crippled these days.

Hoping for some insight :)

[Michael Keller]

The new deck I'm working on explores Tortured Existence as a powerful utility-facilitator engine. I'm working on refining a list and trying it out at a bigger tournament. Once that happens, you can expect to see some more in-depth info on it. It's like a hybrid of Manaless and non-LED Dredge. This version (probably more than any other variation of Dredge I've played) grinds games out pretty hard.

With lots of other stuff going on right now (namely on the way to being a first-time dad), you guys can imagine how busy I am. I apologize for the delay and will get it out there as soon as I can.

[P-E]

Congrats for the baby Hollywood ^^
Tortured Existence is always a card i loved
i'm impatient to see the build

[Tombstalker]

The new deck I'm working on explores Tortured Existence as a powerful utility-facilitator engine. I'm working on refining a list and trying it out at a bigger tournament. Once that happens, you can expect to see some more in-depth info on it. It's like a hybrid of Manaless and non-LED Dredge. This version (probably more than any other variation of Dredge I've played) grinds games out pretty hard.

With lots of other stuff going on right now (namely on the way to being a first-time dad), you guys can imagine how busy I am. I apologize for the delay and will get it out there as soon as I can.
Color me interested! Ive been taking non LED out for a spin lately (I own LEDs just testing something different).

I look forward to your list. Meanwhile congrats on the new kid, just wait til they start stealing your MTG for themselves like mine!

[Holly]

Gratulation on your baby aswell !
Hope you didn't take my statement the wrong way, there's no need to apologize. I just wanted to express my impatience for your work :).

[Mr. Froggy]

I got a Turn 1 (technically?) win with Manaless on MTGO vs Mono-white.

During the games though, Thalia is a BITCH!

Also, how do I insert a video? (if possible)

EDIT: How do you guys fight through turn 1 DRS?

[Vandalize]

I got a Turn 1 (technically?) win with Manaless on MTGO vs Mono-white.

During the games though, Thalia is a BITCH!

Also, how do I insert a video? (if possible)

EDIT: How do you guys fight through turn 1 DRS?

You need a Phantasmagorian in hand. Or you need Street Wraith to cycle in response to Deathrite Shaman's activation.

[(nameless one)]

I got a Turn 1 (technically?) win with Manaless on MTGO vs Mono-white.

During the games though, Thalia is a BITCH!

Also, how do I insert a video? (if possible)

EDIT: How do you guys fight through turn 1 DRS?

Post it on a youtube account and hope for the best I guess.

I would love to see that video.

[Mr. Froggy]

Post it on a youtube account and hope for the best I guess.

I would love to see that video.

if I get to it, I might post it tomorrow. It was awesome!

[Final Fortune]

Manaless is a different beast all together in a way. It really can be more explosive at times than traditional Dredge with its bountiful amount of recursive creatures in Ichorid and Nether Shadows to really push through 1 of the 4 Dread Returns in the deck. But then again it suffers from almost having no option to mulligan even if you're hand is a bit slow. And being even a bit slow in this format means you fall behind really quick.

On another note. I'm thinking of switching up my sideboard. At this point I really don't like the Leylines. I seriously can't remember the last time I boarded that in. I would much rather have some combination of Pithing Needle and Firestorm even if it means rolling over to the Reanimator matchup. If I did wanna shore it up though I would probably stick a Coffin Purge somewhere in there; flashback means it doesn't disrupt my overall plan and if I open with it its a nice surprise being an instant. Not to mention some recent reanimator lists are eschewing the use of Daze over Lotus Petal which means the only real way they're going to stop it is with Force.

Pithing Needle seems really good shutting down things like Knight of the Reliquary (searches up Bajuka Bog), Sneak Attack, DRS, which are things I care about more or less while still having the ability to hit artifact hate like Tormond's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb, Relic of Progenitus,etc..

Firestorm is one I go back and forth with. Its an uncounterable discard outlet that can wipe your opponents board in a pinch. However, I have reservations about the card sometimes because its a bit of a Nonbo when u have to pitch one of your bridges. And I just simply think wiping the board doesn't play into the overall gameplan of dredge. were not really a control deck. That and its a one shot deal. You really do need something meaningful to follow it up with. So I guess I could consider one copy or two.

One of Firestorm's more useful functions is as a pseudo Dread Return, i.e. destroy multiples of your own creatures, for instance a Putrid Imp, Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug, generate X Zombie Tokens and then instead of reanimating a fatty you burn your opponent for 4 to 5 damage. But frankly, any card that simultaneously destroys your opponent's Deathrite Shaman, deals 3 damage to your opponent (including yourself) discards three cards (including any Dredger) and reaches Threshold for Cephalid Coliseum next turn belongs some where in your 75. I'm pretty sure I'd play 4 Firestorm before 4 Nature's Claim considering Leyline of the Void is a myth, Relic of Progenitus is too slow and only Miracles plays Rest in Peace compared to Deathrite Shaman being in every, other fucking deck in the format right now.

[Mr. Froggy]

I took Manaless to my weekly Legacy, finishing 5th out of 9...

Round 1: BYE (1-0)
Round 2: Tin Fins 2-1 (2-0)
Round 3: Ugw Hatebears Fauna Shaman Shits-n-giggles 0-2 (2-1)
Round 4: RUW Delver 1-2 (2-2)

Props:
Awesome people being awesome
The players for being really great
The deck when it works
Nether Shadows for being the shizz, I love these guys

Slops:
My Narcos for shitting on me....

[HammafistRoob]

Please use the Manaless thread. Did you think it was there for looks?

[Mr. Froggy]

Please use the Manaless thread. Did you think it was there for looks?

Sorry my man! Will do from now on!

[indefinite.soul]

My list right now is Quadlazer -1 Ichorid +1 DR - more towards combo, since they r heavy in my meta, i.e. need Breakthrough.

Sideboard
4 Lotus Petal - it was Leyline of the Void, but it doesn't answer Show and Tell / Sneack Attack - also heavy here.
4 Nature's Claim - Leyline does exist in my meta, also some rogue enchantress.
4 Pithing Needle - towards Firestorm, because answers better for Ooze, imo, and also can shut artifacts (doesn't answer meddling mage / MM artifact though).
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dread Return
1 Sadistic Hypnotist - cabal therapy is one of the best win conditions in this deck, so y not cast 6 at a time? xD

For uncountered discard (Firestorm) compensation you can always DDD, especialy since u'll be on the play G2/3.
The fragility here is that I have only 1 answer (AG) to Chalice for 1.
As for Ashen Goul: hell, sometimes not having them mean I'm in trouble, but we can't fill them all...

[astormbrewing]

My big question for beginning to play Dredge is how to sideboard in Nature's Claim/Chain of Vapor and Firestorm, as I'm not sure what cards I board out first (probably Careful Study or Breakthrough?).

My list, for reference:

//Creatures
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
2 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

//Spells
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting

//Land
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise

//Sideboard
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Angel of Despair
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Firestorm
1 Ichorid
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Nature's Claim

[Vandalize]

My big question for beginning to play Dredge is how to sideboard in Nature's Claim/Chain of Vapor and Firestorm, as I'm not sure what cards I board out first (probably Careful Study or Breakthrough?).

My list, for reference:

//Creatures
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
2 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

//Spells
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting

//Land
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise

//Sideboard
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Angel of Despair
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Firestorm
1 Ichorid
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Nature's Claim

It really depends. Taking out Careful Studies and Breakthroughs makes your deck way inconsistent, and if you're already packing Flayer Combo, it makes your deck way more inconsistent, and reliant on LED.

If I have to grind matchups (against RUG for example), when my combo is more likely to get countered, I side out the combo. Against RUG I'd board like this: -1 Flayer, -1 Dread Return +1 Ichorid +1 Cabal Therapy

If I'm really afraid of GY removal, like Tormod's Crypt, Rest in Peace or Relic of Prongenitus, I usually side out Lion's Eye Diamond. LED speeds your combo pretty much like Breakthrough, so if your GY gets removed afterwards, you'll be in a bad shape. -4 LED +4 Nature's Claim. Or, if you can't bear removing LEDs, remove the combo, -1 Flayer -3 Dread Return -1 Breakthrough -1 Putrid Imp +4 Nature's Claim +1 Ichorid +1 Cabal Therapy.

Against Deathrite Shaman, I usually side out some combination of things (trimming), like this: -1 Flayer -1 Dread Return -1 PImp -1 Breakthrough +3 Firestorm +1 Elesh Norn/Iona.

[tyriion]

For game 2, if I need anti-hate or Nether Shadows, I usually board out LED and Breakthrough. This gives you 8 slots to play with that would be kinda all in if left in. I would hesitate before siding out dredgers. Never side out Careful Study, it's one of your best spells after siding. It doesn't only give you draws to dredge with, but also finds you your sideboard cards, enables your combo and generally is just awesome.

[HokusSchmokus]

I would suggest listening to Vandalize. Maybe side out 2-3 Dread Return plus the targets in Grindy matchups,though, as it doesn't really do enough there imo. Otherwise, trimming is key!

[DreAmiN]

Hey there !

I wanted to try a list which looks more like a Vintage List but I want advice about it in Legacy.

4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Ichorid

4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough

3 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
1 Sun Titan

4 Bridge from Below

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

3 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Petrified Field

SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Unmask
SB: 2 Firestorm

I like Bloodghast in Dredge. When you are facing deck which takes time to win, slow-dredging with this list is just a pleasure. However, cutting Therapy from MD can be risky, I don't know, we are really strong G1 anyway. I think I miss some cards to answer Ooze and Yilxlid. And I was wondering about Ray of Revelation for it good flashback capacity against RiP or LLotV in resp of the trigger.

[tyriion]

I like Bloodghast in Dredge. When you are facing deck which takes time to win, slow-dredging with this list is just a pleasure. However, cutting Therapy from MD can be risky, I don't know, we are really strong G1 anyway. I think I miss some cards to answer Ooze and Yilxlid.

Why would you ever want to slow dredge a game 1? Decks like that don't have ways to interact game 1, so you just win fast. That means that Bloodghast is better off in your sideboard. Cabal Therapy is very good at producing zombies, so you want them in. Petrified Field looks clunky to me, but tbh I never even tried playing Bloodghast. But somehow I think that the Field is only good with another land in hand and then you might just as well up the count of paradise and salvage.

If you are set on Dread Return, then by all means. It's fun to play and the feeling you get from flipping your entire deck with Grisel is nice. But in the long run it's not worth it, it's win-more. You can win just as well without it. DR packages are something for the SB in a known meta where it's useful. I would definitely not go for Griselbrand. Maybe Flayer if you meet stuff that keeps you from attacking, Elesh Norn for tribal/horde decks and Iona for narrow combo decks.

[Final Fortune]

Ashen Ghoul is better than Bloodghast or Nether Shadow in Mana Dredge the majority of the time, you only want alternatives to Ichorid and Cabal Therapy (specifically Dread Return) when you're facing Surgical Extraction and need to diversify your win/kill conditions and sacrifice outlets.

I've never come across a deck I couldn't beat game 1 with just 3 Ichorid MD.

[tyriion]

Ashen Ghoul is better than Bloodghast or Nether Shadow in Mana Dredge the majority of the time, you only want alternatives to Ichorid and Cabal Therapy (specifically Dread Return) when you're facing Surgical Extraction and need to diversify your win/kill conditions and sacrifice outlets.

I've never come across a deck I couldn't beat game 1 with just 3 Ichorid MD.

I agree with the ichorids, never play a full playset game 1. Can't compare the Ghoul and Shadow, as I never tried Ghoul. I just like the fact Shadow comes back for free, the power is secondary to having bodies most of the time. As wasteland is a thing and our lands are non-basic I like not to be reliant on having actual mana in grindy games. Maybe I'm just missing something obvious.

[HammafistRoob]

Anybody think this guy could have sideboard applications?

Underworld Cerebrus. 5RB
Creature-Hound

·Can't be blocked except by 3 or more creatures.
·Cards in graveyards can't be the target of spells or abilities.
·When ~ dies, exile it and each player returns all creature cards from his or her graveyard to their hands.
6/6

Seems like it's not worth it to me. In order for it to have an impact it would have to come down turn 1, and it's only good against Surgical which costs 0 anyways so it's not even helping there.

TLDR; extremely winmore, but hilarious nonetheless.

[birdbrains]

It's third ability is kind of a nonbo with all the dredgers and ichorids that you want to actually keep in the yard. And if you really want that second effect, play Ground Seal? It's awful though.

[Que]

Played in my LGS MTG Deals yesterday. There were 36 players with 6 rounds of swiss with a cut to top 8. I would go 4-0-2 in the day and place 3rd overall piloting the same list as before (Page or so back) and giving me the ability to choose to play or draw in Top 8.

My rounds went as followed:

Round 1: Jund_Name:??? (2-0) 1-0
Round 2: G/W Maverick_Name: Brandon Chang (1-1) 1-0-1 This was an awkward draw(usually I don't really mind as it puts me in the control bracket, but still). G2 went really long and by the time I scooped we had about 7 mins or so to finish up the last game. G3 he mulls to five. We go to turns though and it ends in a draw. I believe if we had a bit more time I might have been able to pull it out, but nothing was certain.
Round 3: U/W/R Delver_Name: Jen Wong (2-1) 2-0-1; G2 Jen drops a T2 RIP and I roll over and die being able to find nothing to answer it.
Round 4: Elves_Name: Jacob Kory (2-1) 3-0-1; G1 I essentially T1 him. G2 Ooze rears its head with Gaea's Cradle mana up. G3 I nut draw him again.
Round 5: Jund_Name: Adam T (2-1) 4-0-1
Round 6: U/W/R Delver_Name: Marc Lalague (ID) 4-0-2

So I'm seeded 3rd going into top 8. Its $1,000 to be doled out. The split would mean $125 per player, however, we don't come to a split agreement and that means we have at least another round of top 8!

Top 8:
Mike Kravitz with Jund (2-0). G2 he doesn't hit the hate he needs to stop me from doing my thing. His hate included 1x Nihil Spellbomb, 2x Surgical Extraction, and his 4 MD DRS.

We then decide on a Top 4 Split and we each end up splitting $200 dollars. My overall record in the day was 5-0-2 not dropping a match. Interesting to note I went 3-0 against Jund in the day. I can say I don't really mind the MD DRS G1 still. Perhaps even G2 if they don't have a supplemental DRS or another piece of hate to back it up. Imo its way too slow to keep up with our engine.

[DreAmiN]

Ashen Ghoul is better than Bloodghast or Nether Shadow in Mana Dredge the majority of the time, you only want alternatives to Ichorid and Cabal Therapy (specifically Dread Return) when you're facing Surgical Extraction and need to diversify your win/kill conditions and sacrifice outlets.

I've never come across a deck I couldn't beat game 1 with just 3 Ichorid MD.

Real question there, why is it played in Vintage Dredge over Ashen or Nether ?


Perhaps even G2 if they don't have a supplemental DRS or another piece of hate to back it up. Imo its way too slow to keep up with our engine.

Yeah pretty much, DRS is just good to take off our DR target, otherwise it's not that much of a threat.

Btw guys, everytime I'm testing Dredge, I win G1 (just like anyone playing Dredge I guess) but game 2 I'm alaways facing like 8 slots of GY hate. LLotV/RiP + Artifact or even Jötun, I can't get Nature's Claim for 8 slots, that's just unreal, how do I face it ?

[Final Fortune]

Real question there, why is it played in Vintage Dredge over Ashen or Nether ?



Yeah pretty much, DRS is just good to take off our DR target, otherwise it's not that much of a threat.

Btw guys, everytime I'm testing Dredge, I win G1 (just like anyone playing Dredge I guess) but game 2 I'm alaways facing like 8 slots of GY hate. LLotV/RiP + Artifact or even Jötun, I can't get Nature's Claim for 8 slots, that's just unreal, how do I face it ?

1) Bazaar of Baghdad

2) Play a different deck

[trollking21]

So I just acquired a dredge deck from a friend, and I'm wondering what everyone's most standard list is?
I've played the deck a decent amount and have a relatively good understanding of playing the deck if not so much the tuning of the deck.

[raikenxy]

Real question there, why is it played in Vintage Dredge over Ashen or Nether ?



Yeah pretty much, DRS is just good to take off our DR target, otherwise it's not that much of a threat.

Btw guys, everytime I'm testing Dredge, I win G1 (just like anyone playing Dredge I guess) but game 2 I'm alaways facing like 8 slots of GY hate. LLotV/RiP + Artifact or even Jötun, I can't get Nature's Claim for 8 slots, that's just unreal, how do I face it ?


vintage dredge is a completely diff beast compared to legacy dredge. The power level of bazaar of baghdad makes the deck even more degenerate.

as for your game 2's and three's... yes if people know your on dredge they are going to bring in every piece of graveyard hate they might have to stop you. LLOTV really shouldn't be too much of a proble, if they get you with it game two you know that's the hate there on and just mull to natures claim anyway... most times if this is the only piece people have they will mull hard to get this ... most likely keeping a horrible five or six card hand that gives you time to use your cantrips to find a natures claim or chain of vapor. I haven't seen LLOTV in over a year since i've been playing the deck so if you go to a big tournament you could probably safely assume most people have moved on from it.

RIP is a completely different piece of hate despite also being an enchantment. It's low casting cost can lead to blowouts if you can't kill the opponent the second that you mill your graveyard. This is where cabal therapy comes in handy. However this sideboard hate I've only seen played in mircales, and sadly they run it maindeck lol. The most common form of sideboard hate for dredge being played is Nihil Spellbomb, surgical extraction, and Deathrite shaman. Deathrite shaman being maindecked sucks, but can easily be outraced. Nihil spellbomb also sucks, but it's just a tormods crypt at the end of the day that can also be played around. The maindeck anti-hate i've been running includes 3 natures claim, 3 pithing needles, and three nethershadow. Nethershadow is to get extra bodies if ichorids or moebas get surgicaled, pithing needles stops deathrite shaman/pithing needle/anything haha, i pithing needled stoneforge mystic at sommerset against a deathblade opponent and won because his batterskull was stuck in his hand for turns three and four.

I personally prefer a dread return package in the maindeck, as it just shits on deathrite decks and allows you to win the second you've gone fifty cards deep into your library. They wanna eat your ichorid on your upkeep... thats fine, you dredge while there shamans tapped out ad reveal dread return and flayer for the win. They wanna eat your dread return or flayer instead, you get ichorids and zombies!!!

[HammafistRoob]

So I just acquired a dredge deck from a friend, and I'm wondering what everyone's most standard list is?
I've played the deck a decent amount and have a relatively good understanding of playing the deck if not so much the tuning of the deck.

Dredge is the most forgiving deck in terms of power-level in all of Legacy. I've seen completely garbage lists do well in decent sized fields. While that is a good thing, it's also a bad thing because people don't realize how sub-optimal their choices were.
My list-
-lands-14
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

-creatures-22
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp

-spells-24
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond


-Sideboard-15
4 Nature's Claim
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Dread Return
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Ashen Ghoul

GENERAL SIDE PLANS AGAINST...
1)Surgical Extraction-
*+2 Ashen Ghoul, +2 DR.
*-4 LED.

2)Crypt/Relic/Nihil Spellbomb-
*+4 Nature's Claim, +2 Ancient Grudge, +2 DR.
* -4 Breakthrough, -4 LED.

3)Leyline of the Void-
*+4 Nature's Claim, +3 Chain of Vapor.
*-4 LED, -1 Breakthrough, -1PImp.

4)Rest in Piece on DRAW-
*+4 Nature's Claim.
*-3 PImp, -1 Breakthrough.
ON PLAY- *+2 DR, +2 Iona.
*-3 PImp, -1 Breakthrough.

5)Deathrite/Scooze+Extraction on DRAW-
*+2 Ashen Ghoul, +2 DR.
*-4 Breakthrough.
ON PLAY- *-3 PImp -1 Breakthrough. *+2 DR +2 Ashen Ghoul.

6)Storm Combo-
*+2DR,+2Iona.
*-3PImp, -1 Breakthrough.

7)Reanimator-
*+3 Chain of Vapor.
*-3 PImp.

Keep in mind that these are just basic guidelines and it's up to you to figure out what hate each opponent will be bringing in. If you don't understand why certain cards are coming in/out against certain hate, feel free to ask.

[Fortunae]

Does anyone know what Jonathan Morris' rationale was behind some of his card choices at SCG Cincinnati? I did a double take when I saw a pair of Flayers MD, and only 10 dredgers. You can't argue with the success he had for the event, but I wonder how much was just due to running hot- The Flayers can be explained as a metagame call, but only 10 dredgers?

I kind of hope JM is active on these forums, I would love to hear a breakdown of his choices and a tournament report. :wink:

His list, for reference:

Creatures (23)

2 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

Lands (12)

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

Spells (25)

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting

Sideboard

2 Pithing Needle
2 Nether Shadow
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

[Michael Keller]

It's probably a combination of things: the right match-ups, the right draws, few mulligans, etc. He probably just ran into a slew of decks unprepared to deal with Dredge, and he was able to capitalize.

[Vandalize]

10 Dredgers? Jesus. 11 makes me fizzle a LOT.

@HammafistRoob

My maindeck is the same as yours. Pretty good stuff, right? My board is kinda different:

4 Nature's Claim
4 Firestorm
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Nether Shadow
1 Dread Return
1 Ancient Grudge

@thread

Nether Shadows are pulling their weight, they're better than Ashen Ghoul, probably. I've played plenty of games where I boarded in Ashen Ghoul and couldn't return him in upkeep due to lack of mana (Wasteland is a thing).

[Dice_Box]

Just got a delivery today of most of the cards I need for this. I am building now. Now while I read what I can, I learn better though watching people play. Does anyone know where I can find some good videos of the deck in action? I am building LED Dredge but the build would not be an issue for me to watch and learn with.

Thanks.

[Fortunae]

Just got a delivery today of most of the cards I need for this. I am building now. Now while I read what I can, I learn better though watching people play. Does anyone know where I can find some good videos of the deck in action? I am building LED Dredge but the build would not be an issue for me to watch and learn with.

Thanks.

Hey Dice_Box, welcome! Goldfish a lot. The deck is very complex, and requires a lot of decisions to pilot correctly. I goldfished maybe a hundred games before I felt comfortable with what I was doing. Then I started playing real games, and it took me a while to get the hang of. Game one is usually a free-roll, so try to play as many post board games as possible to get a feel for how to play around hate- games 2 and 3 are what separates skilled Dredge pilots from the inexperienced.

Go to the first page of this thread and read Hollywood's primer. It is very well written, and provides a list of links for articles and videos detailing the finer points of dredging.

Good luck!

[Dice_Box]

Thank you man. I have read the primer, it influenced the choices of cards I laid down money for about 2 weeks back. I have been reading all the talks for the past 2 weeks or so as well. But until I had the actual deck on me I did not feel like I had anything to gain by asking questions. Again because there is only so much I can learn from reading and need to watch or do something myself to drill it in. Now I have everything but LED, something I expect to arive today if tracking is telling the truth, and Ichorid (expected next week) I can test the deck. I am happy to Prox the 8 cards I do not yet have to test with.

What I am mostly looking at is a DR build. Mostly because I like the look of having more Sac targets. I am not sold on the Flayer build, looking strongly at Flame-Kin Zealot as my target but I am sure that people will point out things I have yet to learn and my views will change if needed in time. The only thing I am set on is that I want a Darkblast in my side. My Meta calls for it. Question for the table, do people run Dakmor alongside Blast or is it unneeded?

Dice.

[Fortunae]

Thank you man. I have read the primer, it influenced the choices of cards I laid down money for about 2 weeks back. I have been reading all the talks for the past 2 weeks or so as well. But until I had the actual deck on me I did not feel like I had anything to gain by asking questions. Again because there is only so much I can learn from reading and need to watch or do something myself to drill it in. Now I have everything but LED, something I expect to arive today if tracking is telling the truth, and Ichorid (expected next week) I can test the deck. I am happy to Prox the 8 cards I do not yet have to test with.

What I am mostly looking at is a DR build. Mostly because I like the look of having more Sac targets. I am not sold on the Flayer build, looking strongly at Flame-Kin Zealot as my target but I am sure that people will point out things I have yet to learn and my views will change if needed in time. The only thing I am set on is that I want a Darkblast in my side. My Meta calls for it. Question for the table, do people run Dakmor alongside Blast or is it unneeded?

Dice.

Dakmor isn't usually run in lists that I know of, mostly because its effect is too weak and it's too slow to be used as a mana source. I love DR packages myself, but they are usually win-more. It seems to be more or less the consensus in this forum that dedicated DR targets main are unnecessary when Ichorids, 'Moebas, and zombies does the job just fine.

I like running 1 DR main to have a way to create a ton of zombies on the spot, and the Trolls end up being pretty huge and game-ending anyway.

But that is one of the things I love about this deck. The flex slots may be very few, but the customization options are great if you feel like doing something really flashy and over the top (Zealot) or inexorable and grindy. Hell, there was a time not long ago when everyone in my meta was playing combo decks and I MD'ed Iona for lots of wins.

[Dice_Box]

OK so drop DR targets main and throw in more cards that bounce out of the grave? Run the DR's main tho and in a pinch target Troll? I can see how that would work out. I see testing in my future.

I have some cards I want in my side as DR targets. Elesh Norn and Iona are by far the most desirable. A Reanimator deck and a 12 post deck make me wish to run Angel of Despair too but she seems like a card that mostly does not help outside of limited matchups. What do you think about the Angel?

[Fortunae]

OK so drop DR targets main and throw in more cards that bounce out of the grave? Run the DR's main tho and in a pinch target Troll? I can see how that would work out. I see testing in my future.

I have some cards I want in my side as DR targets. Elesh Norn and Iona are by far the most desirable. A Reanimator deck and a 12 post deck make me wish to run Angel of Despair too but she seems like a card that mostly does not help outside of limited matchups. What do you think about the Angel?

I think that Angel is going to be too narrow. Elesh Norn and Iona have been locks in my SB for about a year now, and they shine in a large number of matchups.

Some small things that are important to keep in mind when playing the deck (just in case you didn't already know):

You CAN exile one Ichorid to another if you don't have any other black creatures.
Do not name a card for Therapy until after it has resolved.
You need to explicitly say "retain priority" after you cast Breakthrough, before you crack your LED.
Thug's ability to return a Narcomoeba to the top of your library is a great trick to be aware of.
Don't forget to stack the BfB triggers during combat so that you net zombies before your Bridges are exiled.
When Hollywood or Parcher says something about the deck, you can trust that they know what they are talking about.

[Dice_Box]

May I ask for a more in depth explanation of BfB triggers? I understand the stack well enough to to use it as an elf or goblin player but I have no idea how it works with combat damage dice they changed the rules back in 2010.

[Fortunae]

May I ask for a more in depth explanation of BfB triggers? I understand the stack well enough to to use it as an elf or goblin player but I have no idea how it works with combat damage dice they changed the rules back in 2010.

Ok, lets say you have 2 Bridge from Below in your graveyard. You have an Ichorid in play, and attack. Your opponent blocks with a 2/2 creature. Combat damage is dealt and both creatures die. Then 4 Bridge from Below triggers are placed on the stack (2 triggers that say exile all BfB and 2 triggers that say you get a zombie)in the order that you want (since you control the triggers) So you stack them for the zombie triggers to resolve first, and then the "exile all BfB" triggers resolve last. Boom. you now have a pair of zombies and your opponent is down a creature.

This is really important to eak out incremental advantage. If you are going to lose all of your Bridges, you need to be replacing them with board presence so that it doesn't slow you down overmuch.

[Dice_Box]

Ok that you. That helps a lot. Also I am on my phone right now to explain my strange post before. Auto correct likes to make a dick out of me some days.

[HammafistRoob]

@Vandalize- Hell yeah man. I'm gonna have to try out the Shadows and I think you could be correct. I'm still missing the LEDs(can probably borrow these tho), Ichorids, 4 gold lands, and the sideboard so I haven't been able to play in a tournament yet. But I have a boatload of experience with Dredge so I figured it would be a good choice for rebuying into the game.

Just to clarify on the Bridge triggers. You must put the exile triggers on the stack first, with the zombie token triggers on top. Also don't forget that when you Dread Return a Troll, he counts himself for an additional
+1/+1.

[Dice_Box]

Ok I have a list, all input is welcomed.

Creatures:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

Spells:
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting

Artifacts/Enchantments
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below

Land
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel

Sideboard
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Firestorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Nature's Claim


My thoughts on Choices:
Ichorid seems to be the fuel of the deck, at least thats what I see on the Vids. Not DR or as much Therapy. But they both help. So I am at 3 right now thinking about pushing 4.

I decided not to run a maindeck DR target. Its seams unneeded game one. While I understand some peoples wish to push Flayer, I am not sold on the idea. My view is that if I am Racing someone then let's see who can win, if I am not racing someone he is just a slot that can be used by something else.

In testing I did not like the land count. Added in the Extra land. Will keep at it. Maybe I am just not use to it yet.

Sideboard is mostly hate. Norn and Iona are the Prison pieces in my mind, I am not looking to use DR to win a game outright, only give myself options to fight other decks. The side is also the thing I am lest set on. I have little skill with this deck and while I feel my main is strong, I think my side may need some help.

Thanks, Dice.

[HammafistRoob]

Good start. However, you must play with 10 gold lands and 8 Study effects if you're shooting for consistency. Most hands with only Coliseum as your only land are not keepable(barring LED, or multiple Careful Studies/Breakthroughs). My biggest gripe with traditional Quadlazer was always the 8 gold lands. Ten is the bare minimum, especially for postboard games where more often than not you're looking for green/red cards + gold land + dredger + draw + discard.

Careful Study is miles better than Breakthrough simply because it serves a dual purpose of draw+discard without having to go all-in. It also helps you find sideboard cards to boot. So my suggestions for your main would be -1DR, -1Breakthrough or PImp, +1Citadel, +1 Study.

Sideboard looks good, but I really don't like Elesh in any matchups except the mirror or Elves so if I wasn't expecting those I would play a 2nd Iona. She helps against our toughest matchups, Miracles, AnT, and TES.

[Dice_Box]

Gave that main ago. I can say I see the appeal in having a DR target to kill the turn you combo off. But I was able to, turn two, drop a lot of zombies on the table and DR a Troll. I feel like the Deck runs hot with a DR target, but not sure if killing a turn faster is worth it. Less important once you think that you can rip the other guys hand apart.

I Am testing the 14 mana, 10 Gold. I like it so far. Do you run that always main or do you run some Mana sided for game two?

[HammafistRoob]

I always run 14 lands in the main. I don't feel like I lose anything by doing so, and sideboarding lands always seemed wrong to me.

[Anusien]

I always run 14 lands in the main. I don't feel like I lose anything by doing so, and sideboarding lands always seemed wrong to me.
I run 16 lands, because a hand with 2 draw spells and 0 lands is much worse than a hand with 1 draw spell and 1 land.

If you break QuadLazer down this way, it looks like this:

12 Dredgers
12 Discard-only cards (Putrid Imp, Cabal Therapy, LED)
8 Discard and draw cards (Careful Study, Faithless Looting)
4 Draw only cards (Breakthrough)
12 Graveyard only cards
12 Lands

You want a hand that has a draw spell, a land, a discard spell, and a dredger. If you assume a hand isn't keepable without each of these things (which is for the most part true), it doesn't make sense to play 12 Dredgers, 20 discard spells, 12 draw spells and only 12 lands. We would play more Dredgers if we had them, so why don't we play more lands?

[igri_is_a_bk]

So the question is, do you cut LED or Pimp? I'd be inclined to drop LED and take my licks on first turn kills.

[Dice_Box]

Have a new name for this deck. "Trigger Happy". Because if you miss one fucking trigger, you do in your whole plan.

Somehow I think this will make me better with my other decks.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Final Fortune]

So the question is, do you cut LED or Pimp? I'd be inclined to drop LED and take my licks on first turn kills.

LED is a pseudo land considering it casts Faithless Looting and activates Cephalid Coliseum, in retrospect I think Breakthrough is the least necessary component of the whole deck, followed by the 4th Ichorid and maybe the 4th Putrid Imp

[Dice_Box]

The new deck I'm working on explores Tortured Existence as a powerful utility-facilitator engine. I'm working on refining a list and trying it out at a bigger tournament. Once that happens, you can expect to see some more in-depth info on it. It's like a hybrid of Manaless and non-LED Dredge. This version (probably more than any other variation of Dredge I've played) grinds games out pretty hard.Just wondering, any update on this? I am interested to see what your cooking.

[Anusien]

LED is a pseudo land considering it casts Faithless Looting and activates Cephalid Coliseum, in retrospect I think Breakthrough is the least necessary component of the whole deck, followed by the 4th Ichorid and maybe the 4th Putrid Imp
LED, Looting, Troll isn't really a keepable hand. And yes, LED can activate Coliseum, but only after you already have threshold. Which means the cards in your hand can't do it on the play.

If the numbers are 12 Dredgers, 20 discard spells, 12 draw spells and only 12 lands, it doesn't make sense to cut a draw spell for a land. If you count Coliseum as a draw spell (which is dubious because it takes another land or an LED + Careful Study, you're still not cutting the thing you have the most of.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Just wondering, any update on this? I am interested to see what your cooking.

I met Hollywood on MWS. It was a sick experience - one game I had Crypt and Cage out and it did exactly nothing.

[HammafistRoob]

1)LED, Looting, Troll isn't really a keepable hand. And yes, LED can activate Coliseum, but only after you already have threshold. Which means the cards in your hand can't do it on the play.

2)If the numbers are 12 Dredgers, 20 discard spells, 12 draw spells and only 12 lands, it doesn't make sense to cut a draw spell for a land. If you count Coliseum as a draw spell (which is dubious because it takes another land or an LED + Careful Study, you're still not cutting the thing you have the most of.

1) It really depends on what you're up against and if you're on the play. But I would keep that against a fair number of decks if I'm on the play game1. It's definitely a mull against an unknown opponent though cuz if they have a Force you basically just lose.

2) I agree 100% here. Discard spells are the first thing I look to cut if I'm trying to squeeze something new into the main. Although I've been on the same list for a while now and believe it to be quite optimal. Could you post you're list? I'm very intrigued about which cards you axed in order to squeeze in 16 lands, but taking your recent posts into account, I would assume you don't run Putrid Imps.

[Anusien]

LED, Faithless Looting, Troll is basically equivalent to Land, Imp, Troll. Actually, the Looting hand is slightly worse because at least with Imp you can dredge more than once. If you fail to chain dredges on the Looting and the first draw step, you are basically stone cold dead. I would almost never keep City of Brass, Putrid Imp, Golgari Grave-Troll, 4x blanks. The deck mulligans so well and can be so explosive, you are basically asking to lose by keeping such a brick of a hand. I might consider keeping LED, Looting, and 2x Dredger, because that does something. But if you have Thugs, that's barely more than just Dredging a Troll once.

[HammafistRoob]

No, LED, Looting, Troll is guaranteed to dredge you AT LEAST 12 cards deep by turn 2. So that's 19 cards in your graveyard, if you don't hit another dredger there than that's just terrible luck. I definitely consider it a keep against zoo, maverick, and goblins. You mind sharing your list?

[Gui]

In my view, I would keep LED + Looting + Troll + 4 blanks anyday.

Even if you don't know the deck on the other side, I have to go for it. Say half of the decks are playing FoW (this is just a guess, probably more decks do so, but it's just to illustrate), and they have that ~50% chance of having a hand with FoW, this means you will connect LED + Looting+Troll 75% of the time, and god knows you can get way worse hands out of a mulligan.

Troll is the best chance among dredgers you have to connect a dredger, and if, by chance, you hit nothing, you will draw another card and drop troll on the grave. Say what you want, you just have 4+6+1=11 "blanks" on the grave, and a troll for next turn.

[HammafistRoob]

Well it's actually a 39.95% chance for them to have a Force if they run 4 and didn't mulligan. But I've seen tons of lists only playing 3 in the maindeck, which is wrong imo but whatever. The chances of not hitting another dredger is really low in this scenario so it really is matchup dependent. Against Storm you would definitely lose unless they kept a durdley hand hoping to get a few turns of cantripping. Or you just dredge like a god and hit something like Narco, double Therapy, Bridge. Point being it's a risky keep against an unknown opponent and there is no need to not trust the decks mulling power.

[Michael Keller]

No, LED, Looting, Troll is guaranteed to dredge you AT LEAST 12 cards deep by turn 2. So that's 19 cards in your graveyard, if you don't hit another dredger there than that's just terrible luck. I definitely consider it a keep against zoo, maverick, and goblins. You mind sharing your list?

The problem is that LED Dredge doesn't run as many dredgers as its counterparts and is less threat-dense aside from Bridge from Below tokens. So, in the event you decide to dump your hand, if you brick, you're basically on the slow-dredge with no further acceleration plan for the remainder of the game in the event you get no action - which happens more often than you might think. The deck is packed with functionally useless cards once they're dredged (draw spells, lands, LEDs), so it's best to weigh your options before committing to dumping your hand turn one in the hopes of hitting gas off the first dredge.

Even worse if you brick and dredge twelve by turn two, you might not even hit another dredger, and without a discard outlet to go with the Troll back in your hand that could be catastrophic. All I'm saying is that LED is light on the threat density but lightning quick on the starts. On the play against those decks, I would mulligan unless my hand contained two dredgers to go with that LED and Looting.

Aside from that, it's a ship-back in my book. You just have to hit the right combination of cards to make it worthwhile. But if you're feeling like going for it, do it.

[Dice_Box]

My LED list runs 11 Dredgers with Dredge 4 or above and a dark blast. My understanding is this is more or less the norm. The 11 core. So I do not buy that we have a lower Dredge chance. As for lower threat density, I agree there. But that's normally what happens when you trade power for speed.

[HammafistRoob]

The problem is that LED Dredge doesn't run as many dredgers as its counterparts and is less threat-dense aside from Bridge from Below tokens. So, in the event you decide to dump your hand, if you brick, you're basically on the slow-dredge with no further acceleration plan for the remainder of the game in the event you get no action - which happens more often than you might think. The deck is packed with functionally useless cards once they're dredged (draw spells, lands, LEDs), so it's best to weigh your options before committing to dumping your hand turn one in the hopes of hitting gas off the first dredge.

Even worse if you brick and dredge twelve by turn two, you might not even hit another dredger, and without a discard outlet to go with the Troll back in your hand that could be catastrophic. All I'm saying is that LED is light on the threat density but lightning quick on the starts. On the play against those decks, I would mulligan unless my hand contained two dredgers to go with that LED and Looting.

Aside from that, it's a ship-back in my book. You just have to hit the right combination of cards to make it worthwhile. But if you're feeling like going for it, do it.
I already said that if you brick, you basically lose. But the odds are in our favor, dredging 12 cards deep is very likely to hit another dredger. I have done the math on situations like these.... I will try to find it.

My LED list runs 11 Dredgers with Dredge 4 or above and a dark blast. My understanding is this is more or less the norm. The 11 core. So I do not buy that we have a lower Dredge chance. As for lower threat density, I agree there. But that's normally what happens when you trade power for speed.

He meant that we have less dredgers, therefore a lower chance to chain into more dredgers. Although this doesn't make much sense because manaless plays practically no draw spells so they're almost always slow dredging.

[Dice_Box]

Question. I keep reading over this line: " You need to explicitly say "retain priority" after you cast Breakthrough, before you crack your LED."but I can nor work out why I should do this. What is the importance of this action?

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[PissedNumlock]

Question. I keep reading over this line: " You need to explicitly say "retain priority" after you cast Breakthrough, before you crack your LED."but I can nor work out why I should do this. What is the importance of this action?

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

In magic the default behaviour is that you pass priority after casting a spell (as this is what you want to be doing 99% of the time). Cracking a LED falls in the 1% category. If you do not explicitly retain priority your opponent can say breakthrough resolves, and then you no longer have the opportunity to crack your LED to dump your hand in the GY.

[Final Fortune]

I already said that if you brick, you basically lose. But the odds are in our favor, dredging 12 cards deep is very likely to hit another dredger. I have done the math on situations like these.... I will try to find it.


He meant that we have less dredgers, therefore a lower chance to chain into more dredgers. Although this doesn't make much sense because manaless plays practically no draw spells so they're almost always slow dredging.

That's not quite accurate, being able to chain dredgers allows you to discard non-dredgers from your hand, there are situations where I'd forego discarding a Stinkweed Imp over a Cabal Therapy if I could dredge a Golgari Thug and have a guaranteed Cabal Therapy on my next turn, you have to think very carefully about how chain dredging allows you to discard other cards in your hand for better value propositions.

[Mrheizenberg]

Hey Fellow Golgari's players,

I'm quite shocked that nobody is talking about the new spoiler from Theros : Ashen Rider

Ashen Rider
Creature - Archon
Flying
When Ashen Rider enters the battlefield or dies, exile target permanent. 5/5

I was thinking all day long about this and i think it can become a good target (if you play one in g1) for the main deck cause it offers some stupid plays with a fast deck like LED dredge where T2 reanimation isn't a dream. This guy can also target lands and synergyse massively with cabal therapy => our opponents got no ressource left and faces a large army of undead. Even if it is a small chance (cause you need it in your opening hand) he is a great outlet against S&T decks. Exile effect is a way better than a permanent destruction because you can kill a dude without exiling your bridges.

What do you think about it? I'm pretty interested by your thoughts.