[Deck] Dredge

[JBulko]

There IS a best version of the deck, and that may change with the meta, but at any given moment there exists an optimal list.

"But if we were to assume that there is a "best version" then it must be Quadlazer since it won in the mirror and placed higher than your list at the same event."
- I hope you're embarrassed by using such simplistic logic. I mean, I've likely had more success with the deck than you, that must mean, by your logic, that I'm a better player than you. Would I hold myself to such a claim? No. there's no way to prove it. And Grisselbrand, it will not see play in dredge, for reasons explained in previous posts.

Cabal Therapy. It's a crime to not play 4. I'll hold my opinion that playing any less makes you an idiot.

Of course the value of any given card depends on the other cards that are in the same deck, given that Dread Return is one of the strongest cards available. OBVIOUSLY bridges and Narcomoebas affect the power level of Dread Returns. I am currently under the impression that you are a simpleton for making the argument, then claiming I don't know the format/deck etc. is clearly a blind underestimation of me as a player. My resume is available on the SCG site, and I've already provided links to my deck(s).

As for the board. It is BECAUSE I understand the format and the deck itself that the board plan is possible. Why dismiss the idea because you think that playing the same old fair sideboard amounts to higher skill? Dredge is an unfair deck. It's time for an unfair sideboard. The sideboard takes advantage of opponents who expect their GY hate to be relevant. The board plan is deceptively fast and surprisingly easy to assemble. The 4 tutors ad the 8 Looting(12 if you count flashback) effects that naturally exist in the main make fining the pieces in a timely manner more than possible, it makes it easy.

When did land become the enemy? TWELVE? in a deck that is amazing at recovering from the card disadvantage inherent in taking mulligans, you've made it even more risky to take the mulligan when needed. it's like you're watching a match and the player keeps a one-land hand and proceeds to get crushed. you ask him why he kept the hand, and he tells you that it had so much gas! well, of course it did, it wasn't a keepable hand. average dredge in a 12 dredger list is 5, GGT+SWI+GT/12=5, so in 60 cards you want an average of 12 dredgers with an average of 5. The other non-dredgers are IRRELEVANT once you start dredging. regardless of what the other cards are, you should still hit a dredger in every draw. So the idea that you can't have any fluff makes little sense.

Bloodghast. Bloodghast does more work for me than Ichorid. It generates MORE tokens than Ichorid does, and I can get it back twice in the turn I go off. IT, along with FKZ and DR, allows me to truly combo off, and not require me to grind-out games like Quadlaser has to.

[joemauer]

There IS a best version of the deck, and that may change with the meta, but at any given moment there exists an optimal list.

"But if we were to assume that there is a "best version" then it must be Quadlazer since it won in the mirror and placed higher than your list at the same event."
- I hope you're embarrassed by using such simplistic logic. I mean, I've likely had more success with the deck than you, that must mean, by your logic, that I'm a better player than you. Would I hold myself to such a claim? No. there's no way to prove it.

I was poking fun at you for thinking there is a best dredge list, so naturally I picked one that did just a little better than yours at the same event.

Also, you probably are a better player than me, but that is neither here nor there.

[JBulko]

I was poking fun at you for thinking there is a best dredge list, so naturally I picked one that did just a little better than yours at the same event.

Also, you probably are a better player than me, but that is neither here nor there.

Cal: "I'll tell you the truth. I'm a little confused by your tactics."
Ricky: "Tactics?"
Cal: "Yeah, I'm gonna keep acting tough until I figure it out. Alright? So, Wha-- See you on the track."

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

I think that the sideboard is the real power of the dredge, the only way to survive against cards that can give game loss. I see a lot of sideboard made in this way:
3 firestorm
2 chain
3 nature's claim
Vs maverik all of these cards can be a solid choice. But are 8 cards. What is the best choice against maverik? And against other decks? And the best side-out?

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

I think that the sideboard is the real power of the dredge, the only way to survive against cards that can give game loss. I see a lot of sideboard made in this way:
3 firestorm
2 chain
3 nature's claim
Vs maverik all of these cards can be a solid choice. But are 8 cards. What is the best choice against maverik? And against other decks? And the best side-out?

It depends on which version you are playing. As for the Quadlaser version I'm not boarding anything against Maverick. I just have to be faster than them. If they have got Leyline of the Void in their sideboard - luckily I haven't encountered one yet - you have to board a few removal. But for the standard GW(r) Maverick SB, boarding nothing should be enough.

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

Sayed by a good player like you is a good advice. I'm talk about LED dredge, other than quadlaser. Can you help me?
Then, vs show and tell? What is the best side?

[Michael Keller]

Sayed by a good player like you is a good advice. I'm talk about LED dredge, other than quadlaser. Can you help me?
Then, vs show and tell? What is the best side?

You will want some number of Chain of Vapors and or Nature's Claims in that particular match-up. Sneak and Show, depending on the variant, generally runs Grafdigger's Cage or Leyline of the Void - two problematic cards if not readily prepared.

Surgical Extraction is another possibility, so you can also run additional 'gold' lands in the sideboard with cards like Ashen Ghoul to continue added pressure in the event your Bridges or Ichorids become exiled.

[Holly]

So..was part of a 50+ Players tournament yesterday. Went 3-3 =/.
Most games were..bleh.. either I got the nuts or was just drawing/dredging lands/useless stuff.. 1 game was a really fun..the others..mostly not so much.
Played Quadlaser
-1 PImp
+1 Tarnished citadel

Sideboard:
1 Tarnished Citadel
3 Ashen Ghoul
4 Nature's Claim
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Memory's Journey (as I expected a lot of extractions)
3 Firestorm (for my lack of Darkblast and since I was assuming some Peacekeepers (I was right..but did not play against a single one)..

Match 1 vs High Tide,
He's a friend of mine and play's the deck the first time for a tournament.. anyway I start with 2 LED, Looting, Land, Dredger..he's dead on t2.
G2 I keep a hand of Breakthrough, Dredger, 2 LED's, Land, Theraphy.. since I thought he would only keep a hand with Fow I start with Theraphy (which get's fow'ed) and extracted.
I draw a looting and despite my Breakthrough getting another fow he's dead on my next turn.
2 Times the nuts..
1-0 (2-0)

Match 2 vs Maverick
G1 I have the nuts..he's dead on t3.
I did not know what hate he plays..more Ooze,Bog, Crop Rotation (which get's played a lot for a few weeks here around). Tutor board? So I did not board anything in..
G2 He starts with a Crypt, Arbor go.
I play a PImp, discarding a Dredger on my upkeep and go in slow-dredge mode.
A few turns pass..he attacks me.. I get some Narcomoeba, even some Zombies as he still did not blow up the Crypt.. he get's an Kotr with an active Jitte when he finally blows up the Crypt. Still I manage to bring him to 1 several times but he gains life with Jitte all the time.. 1 stupid point of damage..
He get's an Elspeth and a few turns later I die..really close game and it was fun (oh and he had an extraction somewhere on my Ichorids).
G3 Mull to 6, to 5, to 4, Land, Bridge, 2 Study's.. finding lands and other draw spells till I'm dead.
1-1 (3-2)

M3 vs Maverick (with blue splash)
G1 Keep a hand of 5, consisting 2 Lands, 3 Draw spells.. on t4 I've drawn every land in my deck and he has an Ooze and a Gaeas Cradle..
G2 Kinda the same.
Fun times..huh..
1-2 (3-4)

M4 vs Thopter-stuff.
G1 I'm to fast.
G2 I'm to fast..
Both games he stood no chance.
2-2 (5-4)

M5 vs MUD.
G1 I start with looting to get a Troll in my graveyard, he starts with Land, Monolith, Metalworker go.
I dredge a bit, hitting some Therapys destroying his hand (only lands left), unfortunately I did not hit a Bridge nor Ichorids.. anyway he topdecks an Wurmcoil Engine, followed by a Steel hellkite and I die soon.
G2 I've got the nuts, he dies.
G3 I've got a hand with which I could slowdredge with a Thug..thought it'd be to slow..so I Mull..to 6..no Land/dredger.. to 5.. no land no draw spell..to 4.. nothing.. to 3..3 Lands.. keep. He plays 2 Gravediggers cage..I draw 2 nature's Claim.. draw go for a while.. but while I draw 4 Lands, he gets something online and I die.
2-3 (6-6)

M6 vs Dragonstompy
G1 I snapkeep a hand with 1 Land, 2 LED's, 2 Lootings, 2 Dredger..awesome right?
He mulls to 5, starts with Chalice on 1.. -.-
Anyway I draw an Coliseum and blow it up, killing him fast.
G2 We both mull to 6, he starts with mountain, SSG, Chalice on 1 to slow me down, which forces me toll wait a turn for Breakthrough x=2 to bin my Dredgers, slowdredge for 2 turns, hitting no other dredger and as helpless for several turns. Luckily he drew his lands to late and I did hit 1 Ashen Ghoul, 1 Narcomoeba and 3 Ichorids..which bring him down before he does anything but playing a Bloodmoon.
3-3 (8-6)

So.. 14 games of Magic.. 1 which was fun..and the others total blow outs from one side.. well sometimes you got these days..hitting nothing or everything.. But because of this I could not analyse my mistakes properly.. I think I gave up M2G2 when I did not attack with 1 Narcomoeba to block his flying (thanks to Elspeth) equipped knight.. should have taken the damage and I had won.. urghs.

[Izor]

There IS a best version of the deck, and that may change with the meta, but at any given moment there exists an optimal list.

There exists a best version of the deck IF:

you know every single deck in the tournament you're going to play against, every single card they play, the order in which you are going to play against them and the exact order of cards in their decks. Plus, you have to know the exact order of cards you are going to draw with your own deck in every game.

Hasn't happened to me yet.

[Vandalize]

So..was part of a 50+ Players tournament yesterday. Went 3-3 =/.
Most games were..bleh.. either I got the nuts or was just drawing/dredging lands/useless stuff.. 1 game was a really fun..the others..mostly not so much.
Played Quadlaser
-1 PImp
+1 Tarnished citadel

Sideboard:
1 Tarnished Citadel
3 Ashen Ghoul
4 Nature's Claim
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Memory's Journey (as I expected a lot of extractions)
3 Firestorm (for my lack of Darkblast and since I was assuming some Peacekeepers (I was right..but did not play against a single one)..

Match 1 vs High Tide,
He's a friend of mine and play's the deck the first time for a tournament.. anyway I start with 2 LED, Looting, Land, Dredger..he's dead on t2.
G2 I keep a hand of Breakthrough, Dredger, 2 LED's, Land, Theraphy.. since I thought he would only keep a hand with Fow I start with Theraphy (which get's fow'ed) and extracted.
I draw a looting and despite my Breakthrough getting another fow he's dead on my next turn.
2 Times the nuts..
1-0 (2-0)

Match 2 vs Maverick
G1 I have the nuts..he's dead on t3.
I did not know what hate he plays..more Ooze,Bog, Crop Rotation (which get's played a lot for a few weeks here around). Tutor board? So I did not board anything in..
G2 He starts with a Crypt, Arbor go.
I play a PImp, discarding a Dredger on my upkeep and go in slow-dredge mode.
A few turns pass..he attacks me.. I get some Narcomoeba, even some Zombies as he still did not blow up the Crypt.. he get's an Kotr with an active Jitte when he finally blows up the Crypt. Still I manage to bring him to 1 several times but he gains life with Jitte all the time.. 1 stupid point of damage..
He get's an Elspeth and a few turns later I die..really close game and it was fun (oh and he had an extraction somewhere on my Ichorids).
G3 Mull to 6, to 5, to 4, Land, Bridge, 2 Study's.. finding lands and other draw spells till I'm dead.
1-1 (3-2)

M3 vs Maverick (with blue splash)
G1 Keep a hand of 5, consisting 2 Lands, 3 Draw spells.. on t4 I've drawn every land in my deck and he has an Ooze and a Gaeas Cradle..
G2 Kinda the same.
Fun times..huh..
1-2 (3-4)

M4 vs Thopter-stuff.
G1 I'm to fast.
G2 I'm to fast..
Both games he stood no chance.
2-2 (5-4)

M5 vs MUD.
G1 I start with looting to get a Troll in my graveyard, he starts with Land, Monolith, Metalworker go.
I dredge a bit, hitting some Therapys destroying his hand (only lands left), unfortunately I did not hit a Bridge nor Ichorids.. anyway he topdecks an Wurmcoil Engine, followed by a Steel hellkite and I die soon.
G2 I've got the nuts, he dies.
G3 I've got a hand with which I could slowdredge with a Thug..thought it'd be to slow..so I Mull..to 6..no Land/dredger.. to 5.. no land no draw spell..to 4.. nothing.. to 3..3 Lands.. keep. He plays 2 Gravediggers cage..I draw 2 nature's Claim.. draw go for a while.. but while I draw 4 Lands, he gets something online and I die.
2-3 (6-6)

M6 vs Dragonstompy
G1 I snapkeep a hand with 1 Land, 2 LED's, 2 Lootings, 2 Dredger..awesome right?
He mulls to 5, starts with Chalice on 1.. -.-
Anyway I draw an Coliseum and blow it up, killing him fast.
G2 We both mull to 6, he starts with mountain, SSG, Chalice on 1 to slow me down, which forces me toll wait a turn for Breakthrough x=2 to bin my Dredgers, slowdredge for 2 turns, hitting no other dredger and as helpless for several turns. Luckily he drew his lands to late and I did hit 1 Ashen Ghoul, 1 Narcomoeba and 3 Ichorids..which bring him down before he does anything but playing a Bloodmoon.
3-3 (8-6)

So.. 14 games of Magic.. 1 which was fun..and the others total blow outs from one side.. well sometimes you got these days..hitting nothing or everything.. But because of this I could not analyse my mistakes properly.. I think I gave up M2G2 when I did not attack with 1 Narcomoeba to block his flying (thanks to Elspeth) equipped knight.. should have taken the damage and I had won.. urghs.

That's Putrid Imp cursing you for cutting him. The additional land caused an awesome flood :D

After seeing all these discussions about Dredge and the metagame. I don't see this deck as a meta-dependant deck. It's a blowout to whatever lacks on graveyard-hate. Dredge would win every single match (except for storm-combo, probably) if people did not use graveyard-hate.

This deck WILL lose to a tier 4 deck (like Mono-Green Treefolks, for example) if their sideboard consists in: 4 Leyline of the Void, 4 Ravenous Trap, 4 Tormod's Crypt, 3 Relic of Progenitus.

And it WILL punish Tier-1 decks if they're soft on hate.

That being said, this is not a meta-game dependant. Because every single deck is capable of running hate, and they do run. It's not like Painter-Stone combo against Merfolk. It's Dredge against Hate.

[Holly]

That's Putrid Imp cursing you for cutting him. The additional land caused an awesome flood :D

Well.. it really did feeled this way yeah..but what I did not say.. at least 2 Games (maybe more) I kept a hand with a single Tarnished Citadel as my land, which I otherwise probably did had to mulligan (for better or worse, who knows?).
All in all I would not necessary change it back.. well maybe.. I really don't know.. got to test it further.

[DarkJester]

Do you think you really need your Journeys in addition to the Ashen Ghouls to beat Extraction-Effects? Yesterday in a 53 people Tournament some guy extracted my Bridges (VS U/G Infect), but Ichorid and Ghouls got there, another guy (Goblins) extracted my ichorids but Ghoul and Bridges were enough to beat him (too bad he won the first game cause of my mulligan to 3 and killed me with an unexpected cage G3...he played 4 extractions and 4 cages...)...^^
Even against R/U-Delver, where I was not sure whether he plays Crypts or Extractions, the Ghouls helped soooo much after a topdecked crypt that I was able to win the match.
Btw: Yesterday I won more post-board matches than pre-board matches with the Quadlaser-Build (-1 Thug/ +1 Darkblast) cause of the lack of lands in my opening-7s G1...maybe a variance of stochastics, I will test it again because the list seemed very strong).

[TerribleTim68]

I'm going to go with the Ghouls (now that I have them) over the Memory's Journey and Firestorms I had in the sb. Hopfeully it works better. I alos dropped the 1 maindeck Journey in favor of a Citadel (so now I have zero Journeys in the 75). I really felt the Journeys were never useful (or I was never in a spot where I could use them when they were useful) and I often wished I had just 1 more land in the deck. We will see.

[chags]

I'm preparing for an event this Saturday and at the moment I intend on bringing quadlazer with -1 ichorid -1 golgari thug, +1 dread return +1 darkblast running Elesh Norn and Flayer of the Hatebound with another DR SB. I love how consistent quadlazer is but I really dislike the idea of no dread returns, in my meta there are a lot of ensaring bridge/humility, thopter foundry, and elves decks. I've found that while I can be a lot faster then these decks if I hiccup at all winning via attacking becomes very difficult. I really like that flayer can give you "same turn" kills without actually attacking at all. Elesh just destroys elves and I don't feel comfortable enough with the match up to not run him.

[LeePerry]

I'm preparing for an event this Saturday and at the moment I intend on bringing quadlazer with -1 ichorid -1 golgari thug, +1 dread return +1 darkblast running Elesh Norn and Flayer of the Hatebound with another DR SB. I love how consistent quadlazer is but I really dislike the idea of no dread returns, in my meta there are a lot of ensaring bridge/humility, thopter foundry, and elves decks. I've found that while I can be a lot faster then these decks if I hiccup at all winning via attacking becomes very difficult. I really like that flayer can give you "same turn" kills without actually attacking at all. Elesh just destroys elves and I don't feel comfortable enough with the match up to not run him.

Won't the DR maindeck be a wasted slot then? or do you only intend to use it after SB and keep it in the main to save a sb slot? Otherwise I think it might still be better to make room for a singleton DR target main-deck.

At the moment I'm trying out a Quadlazer build (-1 Thug -1 Breakthrough // +1 DR +1 Flame Kin Zealot) but I have no additional DR targets in my SB since I side them out in almost every matchup anyway to make room for the Defense. I've also been thinking of going to the full Quadlazer list, or replace the DR/FKZ that I have now with +1 Firestorm +1 Thug.

I'm still very undecided since I don't get much time to test this out, but I feel that a DR main without a target is a wasted slot, better used by adding a target main, or just taking out the DR completely.

[TerribleTim68]

I think he meant that Elesh is main and the Flayer is sideboard.

I'm going to say this tho, never cut the dredgers! I dropped 1 Ichorid and 1 Study to make room for my Dread Return and target. If you drop a dredger you are trimming what the deck does. I don't agree with that at all.

[JBulko]

He didn't cut a dredger. He exchanged a thug for a darkblast.

MD dread return without a target is not a waste, it still generates a large amount of zombie tokens and gets one of the following creatures:
a) Grave troll. A massive creature able to regenerate, and with an activation cost that the deck is capable of easily paying.
b) Sinkweed imp. A deathtouch flyer that can defend against a variety of threats.
c) Thug. Thug can be sac'd to therapy to put a previously sac'd Narcomoeba back on top of the deck, generating even more future tokens.

each line of play can be relevant in special situations. But regardless, Dread Return is the biggest burst of tokens available to Dredge.

[Fizzeler]

I am a recent Dredge player, still testing the waters with the deck, but I currently don't have 4 LEDs (only 3) what is a good replacement for the 4th? Should I up 1 discard outlet or a land?

My list is a typical LEDredge list running Ichorids over Bloodghast and currently only run 8 rainbow lands and 4 Coliseums

[Woe]

I am a recent Dredge player, still testing the waters with the deck, but I currently don't have 4 LEDs (only 3) what is a good replacement for the 4th? Should I up 1 discard outlet or a land?

My list is a typical LEDredge list running Ichorids over Bloodghast and currently only run 8 rainbow lands and 4 Coliseums

Sounds like you are running quadlazer. If you already have four putrid imps and maxed on everything else. Add a tarnished citadel, you could add a dread return for token generation. It's a preference. If you don't have four putrid imps, add a fourth.

[Fizzeler]

Sounds like you are running quadlazer. If you already have four putrid imps and maxed on everything else. Add a tarnished citadel, you could add a dread return for token generation. It's a preference. If you don't have four putrid imps, add a fourth.

It is close to Quadlazer save -1 Breakthrough and LED right now for Dread Return and Flame-Kin Zealot, if I were to add a land I was thinking Undiscovered Paradise.

My board will sometimes add more DR targets and another DR, unsure if I should just cut that plan altogether and go Quadlazer with Ashen Ghouls on board

[kicks_422]

Forgive my ignorance and the comparatively shallow question, but why is the LED version now called Quadlazer? Just curious.

[Michael Keller]

Forgive my ignorance and the comparatively shallow question, but why is the LED version now called Quadlazer? Just curious.

It isn't. I think what you're referring to is the overwhelming majority of European players playing the deck and posting about it, when there are still other variants of LED Dredge with varying quantities of cards used that don't necessarily all ring it at four a piece.

[Final Fortune]

I didn't notice a single difference as far as explosiveness and redundancy was concerned. Actually, the deck felt like it clicked better on all cylinders with Darkblast(s) added to the main. Dread Return is always nice to have, and I might go back to one or two, but right now I think three (3) Ichorid is the right number in a non-Quadlazer list. I was able to overwhelm opponents with Ichorids and Zombies and it was just too much to for them to handle game one.

Game two I was able to shore up Extraction-based strategies using the usual suspects, and I even managed to beat the Miracle player who resolved double Extraction (Bridge and Cabal Therapy), double Terminus and double Crypt activations. I just went serious beat-down with Ichorids, Narcomoebas and Ashen Ghouls, and while it was hard to overcome, I just kept my head in the game and ground it out.



To be honest, the one Dread Return was okay at best as a sacrifice outlet to make tokens and not much more. Yeah, it was nice to bring in targets and animate them, but honestly I just think the Ghoul plan is so much better because it's more straight-forward and requires less setup. Dread Return is just another avenue you can take to beat hate, but I think Ghoul cleans that up nicely as is.

My list is always in flux, but this is what it currently has evolved into.



It is true that the math favors the 11th gold land post-board, but the problem is that it takes up another slot. It might just be a matter of preference, but I've never had an issue with running this configuration except for Tarnished Citadel being an upgrade from Undiscovered Paradise, a card that makes awkward scenarios with Cephalid Coliseum.

Basically what I'm saying is that I think the slot is more important for something else aside from a relatively innocuous set of percentages that really is up to the player whether or not they see it as being more beneficial to run another land instead of something else.

I've never had a problem with ten (10) gold lands.

I've come to similar findings, I'm playing your list -2 Dark Blast, +1 Golgari Thug +1 Putrid Imp with 3 Ashen Ghoul and 1 Tarnished Citadel in the SB and I haven't had any qualms over it.

I guess it's just Quad-Lazer that switches out an Ichorid for a land, but I think it goes to show you why Quad-Lazer does so well, staying away from the cute bull shit and just concentrating on consistency is what is going to win you all of your games.

[Michael Keller]

I've come to similar findings, I'm playing your list -2 Dark Blast, +1 Golgari Thug +1 Putrid Imp with 3 Ashen Ghoul and 1 Tarnished Citadel in the SB and I haven't had any qualms over it.

I guess it's just Quad-Lazer that switches out an Ichorid for a land, but I think it goes to show you why Quad-Lazer does so well, staying away from the cute bull shit and just concentrating on consistency is what is going to win you all of your games.

Normal LED Dredge doesn't necessarily get "cute" to win games; it's focus is primary shifted towards variety where Quadlazer pulls its strength in redundancy. It does lack in consistency with a far more linear game one without Dread Returns or any other utility cards like Darkblast, in addition to having only eight gold lands pre-board. The sideboarding strategies are effectively the same between the two decks, except non-Quad Dredge does in fact have a slight bit of variety over its counterpart to circumvent hate by diversifying its strategy aside from just land(s)/Ashen Ghoul(s). Quad lists do this to a certain extent, but not as much as the non-Q lists do.

Variety isn't necessarily a dereliction in strategic optimization, it's just a different approach to winning games. It's not like the deck is ridiculously stretched beyond its means; it can still win games with relative ease - and just as fast.

[Final Fortune]

Normal LED Dredge doesn't necessarily get "cute" to win games; it's focus is primary shifted towards variety where Quadlazer pulls its strength in redundancy. It does lack in consistency with a far more linear game one without Dread Returns or any other utility cards like Darkblast, in addition to having only eight gold lands pre-board. The sideboarding strategies are effectively the same between the two decks, except non-Quad Dredge does in fact have a slight bit of variety over its counterpart to circumvent hate by diversifying its strategy aside from just land(s)/Ashen Ghoul(s). Quad lists do this to a certain extent, but not as much as the non-Q lists do.

Variety isn't necessarily a dereliction in strategic optimization, it's just a different approach to winning games. It's not like the deck is ridiculously stretched beyond its means; it can still win games with relative ease - and just as fast.

What I mean is one of the most important goals for Dredge was to find the minimum number of kill conditions in order to be certain we weren't over investing in cards that didn't help us win games i.e. achieve insurmountable board position and card advantage.

3 Ichorid seems to achieve that, with the 4th Ichorid giving way to a card that adds more consistency to mulligans i.e. land.

The only other configurations I find of any interest are the 2 Ichorid, and 4 Dread Return/Targets builds and trying to figure out what the trade off between the additional kill conditions and the utility cards like Cabal Therapy and Putrid Imp are, to prove whether or not the least or the most kill conditions are definitevly the best idea.

If by variety you mean not playing any Dread Return(s) or Dark Blasts, that's just a function of me finding the minimum number of kill conditions (maybe 2 Ichorid, 1 Dread Return is correct for all I know) and U/w players finding out Peace Keeper is really bad vs. us because we "can" be playing Dark Blast MD.

[chags]

He didn't cut a dredger. He exchanged a thug for a darkblast.

MD dread return without a target is not a waste, it still generates a large amount of zombie tokens and gets one of the following creatures:
a) Grave troll. A massive creature able to regenerate, and with an activation cost that the deck is capable of easily paying.
b) Sinkweed imp. A deathtouch flyer that can defend against a variety of threats.
c) Thug. Thug can be sac'd to therapy to put a previously sac'd Narcomoeba back on top of the deck, generating even more future tokens.

each line of play can be relevant in special situations. But regardless, Dread Return is the biggest burst of tokens available to Dredge.

Thank you for actually reading the cuts/additions, and I agree that MD DR without a target is fine.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Forgive my ignorance and the comparatively shallow question, but why is the LED version now called Quadlazer? Just curious.

The german version is called quadlazer because it plays everything as a 4-off.

4 = Quad, blabla :laugh:

[TerribleTim68]

Ok, well I pretty much got straight up served at last night's weekly Legacy tournament. Here's the run-down -

12 people showed up, a decent number for a weekly Legacy show. I ran the following -

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
3 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
//////
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Nature's Claim
4 Ashen Ghoul
1 Ichorid
1 Grizzlebrand
1 Blazing Archon
1 Massacre Wurm

Round 1 vs Kade playing Doomsday :
Game 1 - I've never played against this deck so I had no idea on how to approach it. Kade is one of the more solid players at our events so I knew I had some work cut out for me. He won the die roll so I'm on the play. Kade spends a couple turns sculpting while I dredge like crazy and keep making tokens. I can't seem to hit a Cabal Therapy to save my life, but Ichorids and tokens are going the distance. I have him down to 2 when he combos out and wins.

Game 2 - Not sure how to sb, I leave well enough alone and try to race. I think I did shuffle in 3 or 4 and then take the same ones out just so I looked smart. We both mulligan to 4. Kade asks if I want to draw and move to game 3, I decline thinking my deck mulligans decent so I may be in good shape here. I was right. I took 3 from my own Tarnished Citadel, that would be the only damage I would take all game. Kade dies to a horde of zombie tokens and recurring Ichorids.

Game 3 - I mulligan to 4 and still don't find a decent hand or any lands. Kade has 3 turns to do what ever he wants while I sit and watch him goldfish. I never draw a land and he combos out for the win.

(0-1)

Round 2 vs Henrey playing Goblins :
Game 1 - I've never seen Henrey before, so he is a newer player. Rough intro to our tournaments, but hey. I mulligan to 5 this time. Henrey makes a few goblins and they are looking pretty snazzy. He beats me down to 11 while I'm tearing apart his hand with Cabal Therapy. Finally I throw a Flame-Kin Zealot and a huge horde of tokens at him for lethal.

Game 2 - I swapped the Flame-Kin Zealot for the sb Massacre Wurm, just in case Goblins got out of hand. Henrey mulligans to 5 while I keep my opening 7. I dredge half the deck on turn 1 with that awesome Gemstone Mine, Lion's Eye Diamond, Breakthrough, cracking Diamond for 3 red, then Faithless Looting routine hitting a couple Cabal Therapys off my Narcomoebas. By turn 3 Henrey is dead to a swarm of tokens attacking for 12 each turn.

(1-1)

Round 3 vs Dave playing Dark Zoo :
Game 1 - Ahh, my good friend Dave, you again. We joke a bit about having just done this 4 days ago across town. This time Dave is playing his own deck though and he has just the answer for me. Dave wins the die roll, so again I'm on the draw. Dave leads with turn 1 Green Sun's Zenith for Dryad Arbor. I spend my turn 1 on a Careful Study. Dave sees my turn with a turn 2 Scavenging Ooze and proceeds to eat my dredger out of the yard. The rest of this match was all Dave and that Scavenging Ooze.

Game 2 - I'm not sure how to handle the Ooze so I don't sb anything and hope to race him. I know Dave only has the single Ooze in the deck from previous conversations. I open with Cabal Therapy naming "Scavenging Ooze", which seemed like a good play. It isn't there. I think "Sweet". Dave top decks the Ooze and it lands on turn 2 and this one is much the same as last game. I can't do anything about it and it goes the distance, eating everything important to me along the way.

(1-2)

Round 3 vs Reese playing Maverick :
Game 1 - Oh boy, more decks with Ooze in them! Reese is also a good friend and I know she runs 3 Scavenging Ooze maindeck. So this should be great fun! :cry: I get a good hand and start dredging right away. Reese answers with what looked to be the same play as the last round, turn 1 Green Sun's Zenith for Dryad Arbor, turn 2 Scavenging Ooze with mana to immediately start eating stuff. I can't handle the Scavenging Ooze and this one is all Reese.

Game 2 - Again, not really sure how to answer the Ooze other than race it so I leave well enough alone. I remember thinking to myself "Wow, them Firestorms I replaced with those Ashen Ghouls sure would be nice right about now!" Not to mention that the Ghouls never came in handy all night. :cry: I get a nuts hand and do my favorite thing on turn 1 of that whole Gemstone Mine, Lion's Eye Diamond, Breakthrough, crack Diamond for 3 red, then Faithless Looting ordeal while hitting a couple Cabal Therapys off my Narcomoebas and this game is all me. Reese occasionally plays Dredge and is amused by my turn 1 and asks to see my decklist later since she can't get hers to do that. I smile a bit inside.

Game 3 - Reese lays a land and passes. I open with turn 1 Cabal Therapy naming Green Sun's Zenith, thinking she wouldn't have the Ooze and I could take the method of getting it. Guess what, she had the Ooze and not the Zenith. In the back of my mind I remembered this from earlier in this thread -

Cabal Therapy is easy. Simply think of the card that totally wrecks your deck. Say that card in your mind. Then say that card out loud while you cast Cabal Therapy. It's that simple.
Some day I'll learn, but not today. To follow up her turn 2 Scavenging Ooze, Reese also added a triple Extirpate targeting my Ichorids, Bridge From Below and my Narcomoebas some where along the way too. Wow, that was fun!

(1-3)

So to wrap this one up, I suck. :cry: I hadn't seen a Scavenging Ooze at this tournament in months, until I pulled out a Dredge deck. I'm also amazed at how shunned you become when you play Dredge. It's like being an outcast. Suddenly nobody wants to talk to you, you hear them whispering about you behind your back, you instantly become a Pariah, they really don't even talk to you between rounds. You'd think Infect would be the thing nobody likes over Dredge. Anyway, my night went like crap. :cry:

[Mojeh]

Looks like a lot of people are losing to their selves lately, including myself.
I've played Quadlazer, and then a 14 lands build, and I've had terrible experiences with both.
I keep reading reports of people going to 4 or 5 cards very, very often... I wonder if it's just lack of luck, or if we should be playing more lands. I mean, back in the non-LED era, I used to play 15 lands and it seemed much better in terms of consistency.

[TerribleTim68]

I recently switched from the standard 12 lands to 13 by adding the single Tarnished Citadel. I think it helped. What I found too often with the typical Quadlazer 12 land setup was that I often didn't have but a single land in my opening hand and would end up with no hand before finding a second. Not that it was a major deal, but I didn't really like it because it seemed like the Cephalid Coluseums were never usable since I had no mana to activate them. It seemd like adding just that 1 land changed things a ton. But I still found myself mulliganing to the typical "not finding a dreger or a way to pitch it" situation.

I tend to mull pretty agressive with this deck. If I don't see a dredger, a discard outlet AND a way to play that discard outlet, I tend to ship it. So I find myself mulliganing often. I could be playing that wrong, but if I can't do what the deck does right away, it seems like the best course is to ship it.

[Fizzeler]

I recently switched from the standard 12 lands to 13 by adding the single Tarnished Citadel. I think it helped. What I found too often with the typical Quadlazer 12 land setup was that I often didn't have but a single land in my opening hand and would end up with no hand before finding a second. Not that it was a major deal, but I didn't really like it because it seemed like the Cephalid Coluseums were never usable since I had no mana to activate them. It seemd like adding just that 1 land changed things a ton. But I still found myself mulliganing to the typical "not finding a dreger or a way to pitch it" situation.

I tend to mull pretty agressive with this deck. If I don't see a dredger, a discard outlet AND a way to play that discard outlet, I tend to ship it. So I find myself mulliganing often. I could be playing that wrong, but if I can't do what the deck does right away, it seems like the best course is to ship it.

The same situation seems to happen to me often, does adding the ninth rainbow land help that much?

[chags]

So to wrap this one up, I suck. :cry: I hadn't seen a Scavenging Ooze at this tournament in months, until I pulled out a Dredge deck. I'm also amazed at how shunned you become when you play Dredge. It's like being an outcast. Suddenly nobody wants to talk to you, you hear them whispering about you behind your back, you instantly become a Pariah, they really don't even talk to you between rounds. You'd think Infect would be the thing nobody likes over Dredge. Anyway, my night went like crap. :cry:

Dredge is a deck that takes quite a bit of time to really get good at, just keep working at it. You need to know the deck very well in order to beat the gy hate cards. As far as people disliking the deck that doesn't really ever change, you just learn to take lots of enjoyment in their losing.

[TerribleTim68]

The same situation seems to happen to me often, does adding the ninth rainbow land help that much?

I was quite a bit happier with the 9th rainbow land. I found myself able to actually use those Coluseums more often due to having enough land in my opening hand to set me up for that turn 2 situation to happen.

I won't say it's "right", but it seemed to work more often than before.

[Fizzeler]

I was quite a bit happier with the 9th rainbow land. I found myself able to actually use those Coluseums more often due to having enough land in my opening hand to set me up for that turn 2 situation to happen.

I won't say it's "right", but it seemed to work more often than before.

I'll try it and see, it definitely won't hurt the deck and I can cut the Zealot for it leaving my DR target as a troll

[JBulko]

Well at least some of you are starting to come around to playing more land. Im up to 16 lands and LED. Granted I run an unusual list, and two of those land are Dakmor Salvage(which I know doesn't actually help cast many spells). I tend to think of the Salvage as a hybrid land/dredger which is very situational, but even without them I'm up to 10 rainbow lands.
I find it odd that Quadlaser is supposed to be the epitome of consistency, but the inconsistent aspect of a low land count that works against that strategy.

[Final Fortune]

Well at least some of you are starting to come around to playing more land. Im up to 16 lands and LED. Granted I run an unusual list, and two of those land are Dakmor Salvage(which I know doesn't actually help cast many spells). I tend to think of the Salvage as a hybrid land/dredger which is very situational, but even without them I'm up to 10 rainbow lands.
I find it odd that Quadlaser is supposed to be the epitome of consistency, but the inconsistent aspect of a low land count that works against that strategy.

It's not a question of "comming around" to play more land, we've always been trying to play more land, it's creating a consensus on what cards can and can't be cut for land that's been the issue. Between the debate for 10, 11 or 12 dredgers, 3 or 4 Cabal Therapies, 2, 3 or 4 Putrid Imps, 2, 3 or 4 Ichorid, X Dread Return and X Targets it's difficult to get the exact set of combinatorics "just right"

I've played the deck for an extremely long time, and I'm still not certain whether or not the 12th dredger is more valuable than an extra land as it is.

[Koby]

It's not a question of "comming around" to play more land, we've always been trying to play more land, it's creating a consensus on what cards can and can't be cut for land that's been the issue. Between the debate for 10, 11 or 12 dredgers, 3 or 4 Cabal Therapies, 2, 3 or 4 Putrid Imps, 2, 3 or 4 Ichorid, X Dread Return and X Targets it's difficult to get the exact set of combinatorics "just right"

I've played the deck for an extremely long time, and I'm still not certain whether or not the 12th dredger is more valuable than an extra land as it is.

What's hard about this?
11 Dredgers
4 Therapies
4 Imps
2 Ichorids (2 more side)
2 DR
1 Target.
14-15 land, depending on the day of the week.

I thought this was common knowledge...

[Vandalize]

What's hard about this?
11 Dredgers
4 Therapies
4 Imps
2 Ichorids (2 more side)
2 DR
1 Target.
14-15 land, depending on the day of the week.

I thought this was common knowledge...

I wish it was that easy. You clearly haven't played Dredge post Surgical Extraction.

[JBulko]

Koby, the mother of runes and Knights of the reliquary are over there. These are vegtables errr.. dredgers. Plus I'm fairly confident that PImps and Ichorids are no longer the best options for the deck. Watch as I get crucified for this...

Final. There is no debate over Therapies. It's just flat out WRONG to play less than 4.
Over the last few pages I have been an advocate for a higher land count and have been near castrated for it. Soon after several posts express an interest in more lands.

[Final Fortune]

What's hard about this?
11 Dredgers
4 Therapies
4 Imps
2 Ichorids (2 more side)
2 DR
1 Target.
14-15 land, depending on the day of the week.

I thought this was common knowledge...

common knowledge =/ applied mathematics

Your list equals 62 to 63 cards as well, successful troll is successful?

[Final Fortune]

Koby, the mother of runes and Knights of the reliquary are over there. These are vegtables errr.. dredgers. Plus I'm fairly confident that PImps and Ichorids are no longer the best options for the deck. Watch as I get crucified for this...

Final. There is no debate over Therapies. It's just flat out WRONG to play less than 4.
Over the last few pages I have been an advocate for a higher land count and have been near castrated for it. Soon after several posts express an interest in more lands.

Bloodghast isn't new, nor is it good and we've been debating the number of dredgers and lands in the deck long before you joined the forum.

[JBulko]

Bloodghast isn't new, nor is it good and we've been debating the number of dredgers and lands in the deck long before you joined the forum.

Don't be a dick. It's not constructive.
Bloodghast is good in the right shell. I'll continue to prove that through results.
Yes, there is a debate over the number of dredgers. Where do you see anyone disputing the existence of said debate?
I can't express the ridiculousness of your personal attack on me based solely on my joined date? WTF really? Makes me think you're legally required to wear a helmet. As if tenure is required to argue points in this forum.

[Final Fortune]

Don't be a dick. It's not constructive.
Bloodghast is good in the right shell. I'll continue to prove that through results.
Yes, there is a debate over the number of dredgers. Where do you see anyone disputing the existence of said debate?
I can't express the ridiculousness of your personal attack on me based solely on my joined date? WTF really? Makes me think you're legally required to wear a helmet. As if tenure is required to argue points in this forum.


Koby, the mother of runes and Knights of the reliquary are over there. These are vegtables errr.. dredgers. Plus I'm fairly confident that PImps and Ichorids are no longer the best options for the deck. Watch as I get crucified for this...

Final. There is no debate over Therapies. It's just flat out WRONG to play less than 4.
Over the last few pages I have been an advocate for a higher land count and have been near castrated for it. Soon after several posts express an interest in more lands.

I'm not certain where you perceived your personal attack from, but it's apparent you clearly aren't aware of the entirety of this thread or the threads that came before it, otherwise you wouldn't be claiming to have "pioneered" 15+ land configurations as if it had never been considered before your posts.

You're advocating 16 lands, 2 of which are Dakmor Salvage and don't count, and the 4 Cephalid Coliseum and 9 to 12 MD gold lands have been tried before repeatedly. I suggest you read the entirety of the thread, as well as the X threads that came before it to get some perspective on how we developed Dredge as a community, because a lot of these suggestions have been brought up, thoroughly tested and dismissed before.

Regarding Bloodghast, the problem with the card is that it requires Darkmor Salvage, Undiscovered Paradise or Dread Returns and Sun Titan etc, which are either near worthless in and of themselves or worse than the alternatives as supporting cards. Bloodghast doesn't have the haste or the power to win quickly and thru' Nimble Mongoose, nor does it have the self sacrificing effect to activate bridge tokens. Furthermore post-board, Bloodghast is weaker to Surgical Extraction than Ichorid because it relies on being played in numbers of 3+ to have any real value with Landfall. Crypt activations that remove your graveyard will eliminate the critical pieces you need to recur Bloodghasts where Ichorid will just be able to RFG any black creature as it comes. The card also has pretty horrific synergy with Breakthrough and Lions Eye Diamond, which leads to some fairly awkward situations and unkeepable hands on low mulligan counts.

I'm not certain 4 Cabal Therapies is wrong, altho' I hate it, if you're playing 3 Dread Return and 1 Flayer of the Hatebound or 2 Dread Return and 1 Griselbrand and 1 Flame Kin Zealot it's possible the relative speed in terms of slowing the opponent down vs speeding yourself up either offsets itself or is in favor of the 3/3 or 3/2 split.

The problem I personally have with Dread Return based Dredge lists is that they completely disregard convergeance between the MD and the SB for games 2+, where you have to SB out both the Dread Return and LED packages more often than not and are either losing SB space to brining in the 3rd Ichorid, 4th Cabal Therapy, 4th Putrid Imp or Xth land. Essentially you have to lose addittional SB space in order to turn from pure combo into aggro combo and the pure combo route isn't actually addressing any particular "need" of the deck as far as I'm aware so all you are doing is cannabalizing SB space for your post-board transformation, and these are the actual games that matter when it really counts.

I feel like most of this has been pointed out before by people who have really long time experience with Dredge, and your adolescent name calling really isn't going to make your arguments any more legitimate. People aren't castrating you for adding more lands, it's more removing Ichorid and all copies of Putrid Imp (which I can kind of sympathize with as I have a love hate relationship with Putrid Imp myself) and comming off as a brat that irritates people.

Dredge is the kind of deck whose power level is so absurd and unfair that anyone can win with it despite critical optimization errors in the MD and perhaps even in the SB vs unprepared metagames, this is where the "it doesn't really matter what you do with Dredge because it's broken" mentality comes from. And while I'm pretty open to entertaining the Dread Return variants and LEDless variants to see the trade offs in speed, utility and consistency I don't think your build really does anything relevant game 1 that you aren't going to seriously pay for when facing hate game 2+.

Edit: I seem to be having problems with post, edit and quotations from the software logging me out, so if any of this is disjointed I apologize.

[plimplam]

Hi!
First of all I'm spanish, so sorry for my english. I want to talk to you about the more extended point of view of the deck in Spain. There is an standar LEDdredge list that looks like this one:

LEDdredge 1st of 131 by Adrià Romero:

3 Golgari thug
3 ichorid
4 Golgari grave-troll
4 narcomoeba
4 putrid imp
4 stinkweed imp

1 dread return
4 breakthrough
4 cabal therapy
4 careful study
4 faithless looting

4 bridge from below

4 lion's eye diamond

1 undiscovered paradise
4 cephalid coliseum
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine

SB:
1 elesh norn
2 undiscovered paradise
4 nature's claim
1 darkblast
3 ancient grudge
1 angel of despair
1 iona
2 gravecrawler

MD list is like quadlizer -1 G. thug -1 ichorid +1 DR +1 U. paradise. Those changes are because Dread return is a fast way of making tons of zombiesand and is a free side slot if you don't need any DR target from sideboard. The thug is cut in favour of the 9th gold land, this is because of mulligans. Why U. paradise rather than Tharnised citadel? Maybe is worst when you want to activate the coliseum, but in a meta full of RUG tempo 3 damage seems to be very painfull.
The side is very usual here. Elesh, AoD, Iona like DR targets, maybe now we can cut Iona for another gravecrawler, what makes me go to another point of the side. Gravecrawler + U. paradise. I'm not comfortable with any other "come back" creature, cause noone is so awesome like Ichorid, but if I have to choose I would choose gravecrawler or ashen ghoul, nether shadow is to weak and bloodghast doesn't shine in LEDdredge builds. Tireless tribe is an option too. 4 nature's claim, not much to talk about this one. 3 ancient grudge, maybe now, we can make an splith here: 1 ancient grudge/ 2 memory's journey or maybe 3 chain of vapor.

[JBulko]

I have never claimed to pioneer any aspect of my decklist. I am merely a proponent of each aspect of it, including a higher land count.

Darkmor Salvage, Undiscovered Paradise, Dread Returns and Sun Titan. None of these cards are bad per se, and in one-on-one comparisons against other cards they may come out as the lesser of the two cards with consistency in mind, but the package vs. package comparison shows a faster, more powerful set of cards. When they interact with each other the synergy is very powerful.
The interaction with Breakthrough and LED can be clunky but that's the trade off for a better choice of cards.

I'm a bit puzzled with your analysis of Therapy. The card is most often cast from the GY, so I'm confused as to how generating multiple 2/2's and the actual effect of therapy isn't just straight up good. I guess I'm asking why you feel that therapy lacks acceleration for Dredge ?

Several of the complaints raised here are based off the more traditional sideboard plans. I think that many of them are not relevant when considering a non-traditional board, as I have come to prefer. The transformational board does require some of the aspects that I have included in the maindeck. I think arguments can be made against your points even when considering traditional sideboards.
I rarely found it necessary to board out LEDs and the entire Dread Return package. The targets may come out routinely, but Dread Return still has major potential to create small hordes, even if it is met with a counter. All of the traditional SB cards are reactive. The damage is already done. Ashen Ghoul is somewhat of an exception here, but makes the deck more mana hungry, a problem that is NOT rectified by simply siding in one more land.
The FKZ/DR package does fulfill a need, a need for speed. The overwhelming power that Dredge is able to amass in just one to two turns is best put to use as a combo kill. Along with some discard in the form of multiple therapies, it can be safer than other combo decks to go off early against permission decks. Slow Dredge just does not invoke that fear, it's always going to be "I'm dead next turn unless..." More importantly, I don't see the cannibalization of SB spots that you're claiming to exist.

Ichorids. They're not only sub-par, they're glacial in comparision. They may be more ideal in Quadlaser. Quadlaser is not combo-aggro. It's a GY-dependent aggro deck with an engine in the dredge ability. It takes some assembling to get the engine going, discard outlet/dredger/land, but that's not a combo. both Ichorids and Bloodghasts require some other card to trigger it, but Ichorid only comes back once a turn. Bloodghast can be returned to play twice in the turn that combo(DR/FKZ) dredge "goes off." Once with a land and again from the Sun Titan. When this happens the amount of tokens that can be generated is far greater then the potential that Ichorids have. On top of that Ichorids can't enter play until the turn AFTER they are dredged, the same is not true for Bloodghasts. The combo version kills with hordes, not single Ichorid attacks, so Nimble Mongoose is hardly a concern. It's not the 2 power vs the 3 power with haste that decides this issue for me. It's the amount of tokens I can generate in a given turn. Ichorid not only requires end of turn to most often generate a token(slow) but also increases the chance your Bridges will get prematurely removed through combat. Ichorid is not a bad card for Dredge, it's just not the best option. And if you play less Ichorids your reliance on PImps goes down, I perceive this as a benefit as I am of the opinion that is is the worst discard outlet. Ideally the draw spells can be used for Dredging, but that doesn't always happen, and when you actually draw cards you have more options. You can see more land or dredgers, even another draw spell.

Relying on the absurd power level alone is a mistake. The deck becomes much less powerful with each turn the opponent gets. It comes down to a fundamental question, Is the perceived consistency of Quadlaser better than combo speed? I just don't think the improved consistency is worth the speed you have to give up.

[JBulko]

I'm not comfortable with any other "come back" creature, cause noone is so awesome like Ichorid,

:really: sigh...

[plimplam]

I mean Ashen ghoul, gravecrawcler, bloodghast, nether shadow..
@Jbulko: So you think Ichorid is not the best. Maybe all people playing dredge is wrong and you are right. I don't know. Maybe. The most important thing for dredge is consistency. G1 80% of times we will win with any version, so make a consistency maindeck for those G2, G3 matches when you need to be slow and constant.

[JBulko]

I mean Ashen ghoul, gravecrawcler, bloodghast, nether shadow..
@Jbulko: So you think Ichorid is not the best. Maybe all people playing dredge is wrong and you are right. I don't know. Maybe. The most important thing for dredge is consistency. G1 80% of times we will win with any version, so make a consistency maindeck for those G2, G3 matches when you need to be slow and constant.

One point I have tried to make is that the difference in consistency between the Quadlaser and combo lists may not be worth the loss of speed/utility.

To your point, I do not necessarily agree that you need to slow the deck down for G2 & G3. Those who like the Quadlaser lists appear to be all about consistency.

How much more consistent is it than the combo list? And is that increased consistency worth it? I don't think it is.

[Izor]

How much more consistent is it than the combo list? And is that increased consistency worth it? I don't think it is.

This is the question it's all about and there is certainly not a 100% true answer to it.

What happens more often?

1. that you lose a game where you were able to go off and dump half your deck into the graveyard, but you didn't find the tools to kill your opponent.

2. that additional graveyard-relevant cards that are dead in your opener flood your opening hands and make otherwise good hands unkeepable.

In my expierience, the second case happens way more often. This is the reason people moved away from LED in the pre-Lootings era and eschewed extensive DR packages for additional lands and controlled discard. And in the present it is the reason for me to drop DR packages from my lists and try to achieve the best possible consistency. The best consistency you can possibly get, mathematically speaking, is the quadlaser list with 2-3 additional lands over the 4th Ichorid and 1-2 Putrid Imps or the 12th Dredger.


As of Bloodghast, I've tried that card enough in the past and I was always disappointed by it. The sacrifices you have to make in order to make it work (more Paradises, Salvage) have been a huge letdown for me. If it works for you, go ahead and run it.

As of more lands, I've been advocating that for half a year, so it's really nothing new. The difference is that I don't troll people that do it differently.


Someone running an unusual list with unusual choices should not flood a very good thread by claiming his choices are nothing but the best. Stop doing that and start having good discussions. And be less vulgar and, we are adult people and I honestly don't see why I would even listen to such immature words; you're only hurting your own credibility.

[smoky squirrel]

Like everything in every deck and every debate about inclusions: use whatever you are comfortable with.

I am very happy with the quadlazer list. JBulko is happy with the combo list. It all depends on your playstyle, and your metagame.

One thing I want to point out in the whole explosiveness vs consistency debate: you cannot really compare them. You cannot ask the question: If I didn't/did play Dread Return, would I lose in this situation? You play both versions differently. I would say that you are more inclined to 'go all in' with the combo version, whereas in the same situation you wouldn't with the quadlazer list, just because you know that you have a chance for a blowout Dread Return.

Correct me if I'm wrong here.

In the end, only consistent results matter.

[useL]

Hi,

I'm sorry to interrupt your little argument here with my post but I need some quick help. I will play this list tonight as a first try to dredge. I have played Legacy for a long time and am well experienced in "regular magic" as RUG/Maverick/SnT etc. What should I board out and in vs different matchups like RUG/UW/Maverick/Sneak/Reanimate/Burn:


// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
1 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
3 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
3 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DKA] Faithless Looting
4 [TO] Breakthrough
2 [RAV] Darkblast

//Sideboard
4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
3 [IA] Ashen Ghoul
3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
2 [OD] Tireless Tribe
2 [ISD] Memory's Journey
1 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

[Koby]

I wish it was that easy. You clearly haven't played Dredge post Surgical Extraction.

Well ya. I like being able to play Magic. Same reason I stopped playing RDW in Standard once Kor Firewalker was printed. I would not play 4 Breakthrough either.

[Fizzeler]

I do wonder how is Gravecrawler in Quadlazer lists?

I can pick up a few and think I might if I can't find Ashen Ghouls (and I guess the advantage of having multiple crawlers helps)

[woremak]

Played in a 20 person tournament last night, went 4-1 and ended up 5th on breakers (it cut to top 4). Here's the list I played:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
1 Firestorm (I saw two elves players, a goblins player and a merfolk player so I figured I'd try some spice. Probably worse than the 4th Imp)
2 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge From Below

SB:
3 Bloodghast
1 Dakmor Salvage
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Ghoultree (these are great against Surgical/Cage)

Round 1 Death & Taxes
G1: It's G1 against a mono-white deck.
G2: He has surgicals, which is weird, but he surgicals my first troll and I have an imp

Round 2 MUD
G1: I have 12 lands left in my deck on turn 2, and instead of casting Breakthrough with just a Stinkweed Imp to dredge I careful study looking for land. This is a mistake and I lose because I needed to explode that turn as he can lay Chalice/Trinisphere/Golem and lock me out if I whiff
G2: He draws 2 Crypts and a Grafdigger's Cage

Round 3: RUG
G1: I start slow dredging and eventually assemble some guys and a few bridges. I therapy him and see a hand of Goyf and Goose so I Dread Return Ichorid to make more zombies instead of the chumpable troll
G2: I board in the Bloodghasts, Salvage, and Ghoultrees and kill him with some 10/10s

Round 4: Pox
G1: He doesn't do anything relevant and dies
G2: He bogs me twice, but I sandbag dredgers. I boarded in the Bloodghasts and kill him with Ghasts/Ichorids (he keeps playing Ratchet Bombs)

Round 5: RUG
G1: He mulls to five and loses to therapies
G2: Boarded the same as above, he casts a Grafdigger's Cage on turn 1 and I kill him with Ghoultrees

I'm going to be honest- the first Surgical Extraction should never be backbreaking. The second one is obviously worse, but if you board in supplements to Ichorid I think you should be fine. I'm not a huge fan of Bloodghast MD but I do think it is a better sideboard option than Ashen Ghoul/Nether Spirit because you have complete control over when it comes into play (assuming you have a land).
Also, if you've never tried Ghoultree, it punishes players for trying to value you out with Crypt and makes Grafdigger's Cage look ridiculous.

I should also note that I tend to DR Ichorids a lot, usually more than trolls unless I can therapy there hand because right now it in legacy it seems like 3 2/2's > 1 18/18

[Anusien]

Is Ghoultree better than Ingot Chewer against Cage?

[woremak]

I think it sidesteps Cage, which is an obvious plus. They do work well in conjunction, which is why I run Ingot Chewer, but Ghoultree is also very good against Surgical.

Honestly, Ingot Chewer might be better against Cage but I think Ghoultree is just better unless it's expected (which for now, at least, I don't think it is)

[Godmode]

Congratulations to Brambilla Mario (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?nombre=Brambilla%20Mario) who made it to the 2nd place at Arcore (MI) 5ª Tappa SLC 2012 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8775) (1121 players) with LED Dredge!


Mario's Decklist (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8775&iddeck=64077):

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Griselbrand
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp

2 Dread Return
3 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine


SIDEBOARD:
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Ray of Revelation
2 Firestorm
1 Darkblast
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Terastodon
1 Angel of Despair
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Cabal Therapy

[Mojeh]

Congratulations to Brambilla Mario (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?nombre=Brambilla%20Mario) who made it to the 2nd place at Arcore (MI) 5ª Tappa SLC 2012 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8775) (1121 players) with LED Dredge!


Mario's Decklist (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8775&iddeck=64077):

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Griselbrand
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp

2 Dread Return
3 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine


SIDEBOARD:
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Ray of Revelation
2 Firestorm
1 Darkblast
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Terastodon
1 Angel of Despair
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Cabal Therapy


I've always preferred lists builded on consistency, but lately I've come around a little.
Quadlazer is nice, but I don't think 12 lands is enough, and we have many Maverick players here in Brazil, so maybe I'll give this list a shot.
The only thing I didn't like in the main deck is the number of dredgers, does anyone have an idea about how to fit the 11th?

[chags]

I've always preferred lists builded on consistency, but lately I've come around a little.
Quadlazer is nice, but I don't think 12 lands is enough, and we have many Maverick players here in Brazil, so maybe I'll give this list a shot.
The only thing I didn't like in the main deck is the number of dredgers, does anyone have an idea about how to fit the 11th?

drop 1 land.

[TerribleTim68]

drop 1 land.

Well, I'd drop one of the two Dread Return targets before I'd do that. You really only need the one target, not two, in the main deck.

[Michael Keller]

Not a single Nature's Claim or Chain of Vapor in the sideboard, either.

At this point everyone can pretty much throw their hands up in the air and accept the fact that there is no such thing as an "optimal" Dredge list. I mean, seriously - how many times have we all circle-jerked around the same set of cards only to see unorthodox, personalized lists just place higher and higher in big events? Sure, conventional lists do well, but this beats the hell out of me. Either 1,000 people didn't know how to beat Dredge, or 1 person knew how to beat 1,100 people.

I think we may have reached a point of regression where it is almost impossible to next-level the format with the same core group of cards. My verdict is and always has been the strength of the player dictates over the strength of the list - especially in games two and three. Hopefully, this proves my theory to at least some minimal degree. We might as well just run four dredgers at this point. That should be your ticket to a Grand Prix win.

[Anusien]

Cutting a land for a Dredger is kind of funny, because they are both the only cards you need. It's like needing an extra arm, and making room for it by cutting a foot.

Also, honestly the reason why people can do well with unorthodox lists is that the difference in consistency is relatively minor: major changes may swing things by 10-15%, but minor changes are only a few percentage points. And just because it is possible to line up an 75% shot doesn't mean that everyone taking 70% shots will miss.

[Mojeh]

Well, I'd drop one of the two Dread Return targets before I'd do that. You really only need the one target, not two, in the main deck.

The problem is that one target helps the other. Griselbrand alone doesn't win me the game on the spot, and FKZ alone is a little situational. If I would play just 1 target and 2 DR, probably won't be neither FKZ or Grisel.

@Hollywood: If you are right, then it's a wonderful new to us, since the deck will 'reward' good players, even if their choices as deck builders were suboptimal.

@Anusien: I agree, cutting a land is against what I'm trying to fix here, any suggestion?

[Michael Keller]

Also, honestly the reason why people can do well with unorthodox lists is that the difference in consistency is relatively minor: major changes may swing things by 10-15%, but minor changes are only a few percentage points. And just because it is possible to line up an 75% shot doesn't mean that everyone taking 70% shots will miss.

Which is exactly why the entire basis of multiple arguments in here make no sense to me. At this point, it's relatively obvious that even a sub-standard list in the hands of a skilled pilot can navigate the deck through the Swiss and into Top Eight.

[Anusien]

Which is exactly why the entire basis of multiple arguments in here make no sense to me. At this point, it's relatively obvious that even a sub-standard list in the hands of a skilled pilot can navigate the deck through the Swiss and into Top Eight.
You're right. That is definitely an argument that justifies sub-optimal decklists.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Congratulations to Brambilla Mario (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?nombre=Brambilla%20Mario) who made it to the 2nd place at Arcore (MI) 5ª Tappa SLC 2012 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8775) (1121 players) with LED Dredge!


Mario's Decklist (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8775&iddeck=64077):

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Griselbrand
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp

2 Dread Return
3 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine


SIDEBOARD:
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Ray of Revelation
2 Firestorm
1 Darkblast
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Terastodon
1 Angel of Despair
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Cabal Therapy


1121 players is quite a huge number, so I googled a bit. There was a tournament at 14th of July, which was the 4th one of this tournament series. In this tournament participated 19 players.

I think a raise of over 1000 players in one week is really unlikely. But I'll verify this :-).

Even if this one was a small tournament, congratulations :-).

[Gui]

You're right. That is definitely an argument that justifies sub-optimal decklists.

In my view, although nothing justifies a sub-optimal list, the main argument in favor of these that say their lists are good despite the general belief that it's not is that it's really impossible to teorycraft a optimal decklist.

You can get a best w/l ratio decklist through extensive testing, but I guess that the minority of the players are able to do extensive and conclusive tests with decklists.

[TerribleTim68]

. . .but I guess that the minority of the players are able to do extensive and conclusive tests with decklists.

AGREED! That's why I come here. I don't have the time or the help to playtest/tune the way it takes. So thank you to all of you who post that info here. :cool:

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

1121 players is quite a huge number, so I googled a bit. There was a tournament at 14th of July, which was the 4th one of this tournament series. In this tournament participated 19 players.

I think a raise of over 1000 players in one week is really unlikely. But I'll verify this :-).

Even if this one was a small tournament, congratulations :-).

According to tipo1 the tournament had just 11 participants. So, don't worry about weird lists proceiding to the finals in such an big event :-).

[Godmode]

According to tipo1 the tournament had just 11 participants. So, don't worry about weird lists proceiding to the finals in such an big event :-).

That's weird. Every site says "1121 Players". But, if it really was a 11 player tournament thanks for clarifying that. I'm sorry I didn't look up into it. I just checked 4 different sites and they all say the same number, although, weirdly, they only show the top4 decklists.

[Julian23]

Only showing top4 decklists makes me quite sure it was just a 11 man event ;-)

[berry]

The original site/post says 1121 and the other 3 just reference the original without asking questions, so. We can all be glad this horrible list didn't do well. 0)

[woremak]

At this point everyone can pretty much throw their hands up in the air and accept the fact that there is no such thing as an "optimal" Dredge list. I mean, seriously - how many times have we all circle-jerked around the same set of cards only to see unorthodox, personalized lists just place higher and higher in big events?

I think it's indicative of the fact that you can tune the deck to your preference as a player. Personally, the only use I've ever found for Gristlebrand is feeding and Ichorid but other pilots I respect swear by him. I think some things have been resolved (play four trolls) but other things never will be. What I like the most about this thread (and the source in general) is that there don't seem to be a lot of strictly right answers, but there are certainly a lot of ideas brought up that I wouldn't have come up with alone.

[TerribleTim68]

...4 Ghoultree (these are great against Surgical/Cage)

Also, if you've never tried Ghoultree, it punishes players for trying to value you out with Crypt and makes Grafdigger's Cage look ridiculous...

I'd like to expand on your theory a bit. I picked up a playset of these out of the dollar rare stack. So what are you siding out when you bring them in? Do you auto side them for game 2 or do you wait to see what they run for hate?

[Final Fortune]

Cutting a land for a Dredger is kind of funny, because they are both the only cards you need. It's like needing an extra arm, and making room for it by cutting a foot.

Also, honestly the reason why people can do well with unorthodox lists is that the difference in consistency is relatively minor: major changes may swing things by 10-15%, but minor changes are only a few percentage points. And just because it is possible to line up an 75% shot doesn't mean that everyone taking 70% shots will miss.

In a sense, the problem tho' is mana sources are more important than dredgers game 2 when we have to cut LED and board in Ashen Ghoul, Tireless Tribe or Nature's Claim and support Faithless Looting and Cephalid Coliseum with just land activations. If we cut a dredger for a land, let's say the 12th Golgari Thug for the Xth Tarnished Citadel, we are replacing a hand with a foot MD but we're also closer to converging our MD and SB for game 2 and gaining SB space.

I think I like Quadlazer -1 Ichorid, -1 Golgari Thug for +2 Tarnished Citadels right now and the general SB plan of -4 LED for +3 Ashen Ghoul +1 Tarnished Citadel for the majority of my matches. SB is looking like, 4 LOTV, 3 Ghoul, 1 Citadel, 4 Chain, 3 Claim right now, which feels really good game 3 when I auto drop game 2 to LOTV/Cage because I can reliably draw into removal when it counts.

[Anusien]

@Final Fortune: The logical conclusion to this argument is to find the weakest non-land, non-Dredger card and cut it to maximize both.

[Calado]

@Final Fortune: The logical conclusion to this argument is to find the weakest non-land, non-Dredger card and cut it to maximize both.
Pimp?

[Fizzeler]

Pimp?

I personally like Pimp as early game he enables dredgers and beats, as well as late game feeds Ichorid and can always be used to Flashback Therapy

[Final Fortune]

@Final Fortune: The logical conclusion to this argument is to find the weakest non-land, non-Dredger card and cut it to maximize both.

Or in other words, we have to discuss whether or not X Pimps contribute more or less to the deck than the 12th Dredger and 11th land?

I'm pretty sure the Xth Land over the 12th Dredger is the right call btw.

[Michael Keller]

Or in other words, we have to discuss whether or not X Pimps contribute more or less to the deck than the 12th Dredger and 11th land?

I'm pretty sure the Xth Land over the 12th Dredger is the right call btw.

I agree with this. Lands are incredibly underrated in Dredge, which is why the Quadlazer list gets so much flack outside of Europe. Understandably, it can and has performed well, but you really need those gold lands to make things happen in the first two turns. Otherwise, you're looking at some really aggressive mulligans and awkward situations.

[Final Fortune]

I'm going to try replacing the MD and SB positions of my 4th Putrid Imp and my 11th Golden Land and get back to you guys with the results, it makes a lot of sense to me in theory and maintains SB parity if I SB out LED for +3 Ashen Ghoul and +1 Putrid Imp. I'm not sure about SBing 2 Pimps or cutting Imps from the MD completely to play 12 Dredger and 12 Lands, there's got to be a point where the black creature count and the SB space really start to matter.

[Anusien]

The real question isn't "How many black creatures do you need to feed Ichorid?" but "How many creatures do you need to fuel Ashen Ghoul?"

[Calado]

Replacing Pimp with the 4th thug doesn't reduce the black creature amount, and increases the "broken hand" chance more than the Pimp.
Replacing Pimp with the land reduces the black creature amount, but don't you guys think that the benefit from the increased stability is worth it?

[Final Fortune]

The real question isn't "How many black creatures do you need to feed Ichorid?" but "How many creatures do you need to fuel Ashen Ghoul?"

Ichorid is a much bigger priority than Ashen Ghoul post-board, unless you're trying to say the black creature count for supporting Ichorid isn't as difficult to reach as the creature count for Ashen Ghoul?

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

I agree with this. Lands are incredibly underrated in Dredge, which is why the Quadlazer list gets so much flack outside of Europe. Understandably, it can and has performed well, but you really need those gold lands to make things happen in the first two turns. Otherwise, you're looking at some really aggressive mulligans and awkward situations.

Maybe it's just my personal playstyle, but I think that the Quadlaser list is the most consistant Mana Dredge deck I've ever played. Maybe I got this impression, because I think almost every hand is keepable. Even without any lands at all.

In all tournaments I played in, I just have to mulligan in about every third round (not match ;-)). Is it luck? I don't know, it might be. Would I have lost more games, if two Putrid Imps / one Putrid Imp and one Ichorid were replaced by lands than I would have won the games or didn't have to mulligan bacause of the increasing land count? I'm pretty sure I would have.

I'm not saying that more lands are bad - hell, I really like to hardcast stuff -, I just don't think there's a need for more lands. If you thing you're more comfortable with more lands, play them. Play the version you like, this will bring you the best results. I, for one, prefer Quadlaser right now. It just feels right to me :-).

[Final Fortune]

Maybe it's just my personal playstyle, but I think that the Quadlaser list is the most consistant Mana Dredge deck I've ever played. Maybe I got this impression, because I think almost every hand is keepable. Even without any lands at all.

In all tournaments I played in, I just have to mulligan in about every third round (not match ;-)). Is it luck? I don't know, it might be. Would I have lost more games, if two Putrid Imps / one Putrid Imp and one Ichorid were replaced by lands than I would have won the games or didn't have to mulligan bacause of the increasing land count? I'm pretty sure I would have.

I'm not saying that more lands are bad - hell, I really like to hardcast stuff -, I just don't think there's a need for more lands. If you thing you're more comfortable with more lands, play them. Play the version you like, this will bring you the best results. I, for one, prefer Quadlaser right now. It just feels right to me :-).

It's relative, right now I'm running -1 Ichorid -1 Putrid Imp for 10 gold lands MD and it's a noticeable difference in mulligans and available SB space.

[Gui]

It's relative, right now I'm running -1 Ichorid -1 Putrid Imp for 10 gold lands MD and it's a noticeable difference in mulligans and available SB space.

Technically, this setup is more consistant than quadlazer, in the sense that it has more keepable hands and more "broken" hands.

[Fizzeler]

Maybe it's just my personal playstyle, but I think that the Quadlaser list is the most consistant Mana Dredge deck I've ever played. Maybe I got this impression, because I think almost every hand is keepable. Even without any lands at all.

In all tournaments I played in, I just have to mulligan in about every third round (not match ;-)). Is it luck? I don't know, it might be. Would I have lost more games, if two Putrid Imps / one Putrid Imp and one Ichorid were replaced by lands than I would have won the games or didn't have to mulligan bacause of the increasing land count? I'm pretty sure I would have.

I'm not saying that more lands are bad - hell, I really like to hardcast stuff -, I just don't think there's a need for more lands. If you thing you're more comfortable with more lands, play them. Play the version you like, this will bring you the best results. I, for one, prefer Quadlaser right now. It just feels right to me :-).

I agree, I have found that the Quadlazer list can keep some fringe keepable hands (like no dredgers 2 lands, and a careful study as well as maybe an ichorid, an imp, and a breakthrough) and still explode turn 2

[HokusSchmokus]

Well as much it depends on playstyle, I found extra lands to be underperforming. You really don't want to Dredge into them...
@Fizzeler: What you describe is what I would call a snap-keep, not a fringe keepable hand;)

[Fizzeler]

Well as much it depends on playstyle, I found extra lands to be underperforming. You really don't want to Dredge into them...
@Fizzeler: What you describe is what I would call a snap-keep, not a fringe keepable hand;)

haha maybe you are right there the Quadlazer list seems to get those type hands often even after mulligans

[Calado]

Well as much it depends on playstyle, I found extra lands to be underperforming. You really don't want to Dredge into them...
@Fizzeler: What you describe is what I would call a snap-keep, not a fringe keepable hand;)

That's the idea behind manaless dredge. But since we need to fight hate, it's more comfortable to increase the chance of getting a land since we're already mulliganing into anti-hate.

[HokusSchmokus]

You don't seem to get my point.

[joemauer]

I do believe the Quadlaser is the most consistent dredge list there currently is.

Everyone that is playing Quadlaser with the exception of -this/+that baffles me.
The only change that I could see in the Quadlaser list is -Golgari Thug/+Darkblast, but this is meta call and a very minor change.

The only reason I would stray from the Quadlaser list is too play Dread Return and perhaps a Dread Return package. This is where you would trade consistency for power.

[Que]

I agree, I have found that the Quadlazer list can keep some fringe keepable hands (like no dredgers 2 lands, and a careful study as well as maybe an ichorid, an imp, and a breakthrough) and still explode turn 2

Sure, but you don't really want to be doing that. What you're describing is a trap hand. It looks amazing if you get that dredger, but what happens when you don't draw a dredger off that careful study and have to burn that breakthrough to get dredgers in the yard. Slow dredging is just that. slow...

I believe I only kept a hand like you described once the entire tournament at SCG Vegas.

[Smea.gol.lum]

At GP Ghent i kept the following hand: 1 Cephalid Coliseum, 2 Careful Study, 2 Breakthorugh, 2 Faithless Looting. Didn't find a dredger in my top 20 cards and died miserably.
I think you should almost always take a mulligan if your opening seven doesn't contain a dredger.
A six-card hand with 2 draw spells and a land is another story.
Besides that my deck totally let me down and i went 2-3 drop.
I ran the Quadlaser list -1 Thug + 1 Darkblast -1 P.Imp + 1 Tarnished Citadel, but my dredges often bricked, I often couldn't keep dredging and that's what I don't like about the deck.
Sometimes you can be as good as you want but the deck just shits on you. I guess I was just very unlucky.
Perhaps I didn't shuffle enough and the dredgers clumped together...I don't know what made the deck perform so poorly :P

[Mojeh]

At GP Ghent i kept the following hand: 1 Cephalid Coliseum, 2 Careful Study, 2 Breakthorugh, 2 Faithless Looting. Didn't find a dredger in my top 20 cards and died miserably.
I think you should almost always take a mulligan if your opening seven doesn't contain a dredger.
A six-card hand with 2 draw spells and a land is another story.
Besides that my deck totally let me down and i went 2-3 drop.
I ran the Quadlaser list -1 Thug + 1 Darkblast -1 P.Imp + 1 Tarnished Citadel, but my dredges often bricked, I often couldn't keep dredging and that's what I don't like about the deck.
Sometimes you can be as good as you want but the deck just shits on you. I guess I was just very unlucky.
Perhaps I didn't shuffle enough and the dredgers clumped together...I don't know what made the deck perform so poorly :P

I've had similar experiences with a '14 land Quadlazer' and with Quadlazer as well.
I'm gonna play a small tournament this sunday, maybe I'll just go with a 14-land combo version... let's give it a shot.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

At GP Ghent i kept the following hand: 1 Cephalid Coliseum, 2 Careful Study, 2 Breakthorugh, 2 Faithless Looting. Didn't find a dredger in my top 20 cards and died miserably.
I think you should almost always take a mulligan if your opening seven doesn't contain a dredger.

Actually this is a hand I would keep any day. It is quite a good one, even if you haven't have got any dredgers in your hand.

I'm almost always keeping hands that contain 2 draw spells, but not dredgers. Even hands with just one drawspell and without any dredgers I would overthink to keep. In my oppinion you don't really need dredgers in your hand to consider a hand as keepable.

[Anusien]

Actually this is a hand I would keep any day. It is quite a good one, even if you haven't have got any dredgers in your hand.

I'm almost always keeping hands that contain 2 draw spells, but not dredgers. Even hands with just one drawspell and without any dredgers I would overthink to keep. In my oppinion you don't really need dredgers in your hand to consider a hand as keepable.
That hand is pretty awful since approximately half the field packs Wasteland.

[Smea.gol.lum]

Well, you see what happened...but I think I would keep this hand again in the future because I was just very unlucky.
However, I would only keep a hand with 1 land and 1 draw spell on a mull to 5 (perhaps 6, if it also contains LED e.g.), but not as my opening 7.
It's task Number 1 to get dredgeing going as fast as possible.

[chags]

As much as I want to just say "you always need a hand with a dredger" there was also a point in time where I said "you can't play dredge without dread return". With this version of the deck I think that might actually be a fine keep. Shuffling is a huge factor with dredge, not shuffling enough will definitely bone you.

[HokusSchmokus]

I also think that that is a very good hand. Also I am fairly sure that all good dredge players I know would also keep this hand(K1w1,Necro,Brot and three other guys that don't post here)But of course it isn't because otherwise it would be listed on Anusien's list of ultimate dredge knowledge /sarcasm
Really, some people might need to overthink their general attitude.

[Michael Keller]

Representing LED Dredge at the Open in D.C. this weekend!

[HokusSchmokus]

Representing LED Dredge at the Open in D.C. this weekend!

I thought it would be that semi-manaless list you brewed, or is it the same? Looking forward to a list for that one btw.

[Michael Keller]

I thought it would be that semi-manaless list you brewed, or is it the same? Looking forward to a list for that one btw.

A little bit of both :)

[HokusSchmokus]

I hope you do well! In the last year or so, I can't remember a magic-related quote that left me more curious and anticipating than your" There will be Ghoultree."

[woremak]

I'd like to expand on your theory a bit. I picked up a playset of these out of the dollar rare stack. So what are you siding out when you bring them in? Do you auto side them for game 2 or do you wait to see what they run for hate?

I think certain types of decks have a tendency to run certain types of hate cards (like RUG decks rarely run Relic) but what I've noticed lately is an uptick in people playing grafdigger's cage. Ghoutlree gives your deck another level of interaction with your opponent because instead of just fighting over Cage/Crypt/whatever you can just cast a 10/10. I don't automatically board them in, but I usually do against decks playing Snapcaster/RUG decks/other decks that can't beat a 10/10

What I meant by saying that it beats people trying to value you out with Crypts is that it seems like people adopt one of two philosophies with that card: break it early and hope that Dredge runs out of gas or (more commonly) wait to break it until it seems absolutely necessary. What Ghoultree does is punish players who wait to break until you try to Dread Return or whatever, because it gets to one mana and then it doesn't care about the graveyard.

When I sb against rug decks, the deck I almost always bring in Ghoultree against, I usually do - 4 LED, -2 Breakthrough, -2 Dread Return for 4 Ghoultree, 1 Dakmor Salvage, 3 Bloodghast. Then I adjust for game 3.

There's definitely a chance the tree is cooler than it is good, but I've had very positive experiences with it. If it's more expected it definitely seems a lot worse.

[Fizzeler]

Representing LED Dredge at the Open in D.C. this weekend!

and I Quadlazer

I think Ando Ferguson will be there playing Manaless Dredge as well

lets hope we all make top 8!

[Klazam]

I'm interested in seeing hollywood's deck too

Fizzeler- sadly no. I'm gonna be on the Merfolk plan for the SCG. (I'm Ando Ferguson)

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I'm interested in seeing hollywood's deck too

Fizzeler- sadly no. I'm gonna be on the Merfolk plan for the SCG. (I'm Ando Ferguson)

Your bee is adorable :cry:

[berry]

I also think that that is a very good hand. Also I am fairly sure that all good dredge players I know would also keep this hand(K1w1,Necro,Brot and three other guys that don't post here)But of course it isn't because otherwise it would be listed on Anusien's list of ultimate dredge knowledge /sarcasm
Really, some people might need to overthink their general attitude.

So, the hand is a snap-keep because..?

[HokusSchmokus]

A one land+2 study+1Breakthrough hand has the ability to win on turn 2. You can dig 4 cards to find either a dredger or a land,which turns on 2 additional Lootings. Also if you draw LED + Dredger you can win on the spot. If you just find a dredger,you still have a turn 2 Breakthrough. That's a very powerful hand in my book. I mean it's no worse than 1 Study+ Dredger hand. You can draw into 12-13 dredgers and 12-13 other cards that do something(lands and LED,15-16 cards if you count additional copies of Coliseum)

[Godmode]

I'm gonna be on the Merfolk plan for the SCG. (I'm Ando Ferguson)

How dare YOU, good sir! Did the archtype fucked you bad lately or you just think that right now it's not the best time for using it?


Good luck to both of you and Hollywood (if you get the gold don't forget to give "us" a shout out on the broadcast booth :p).

Have fun guys

[chags]

Ghoultree seems like a very interesting idea, against a deck like rug that doesn't run STP it seems backbreaking but I'm not sure what else I'd board it in against.

[woremak]

Ghoultree seems like a very interesting idea, against a deck like rug that doesn't run STP it seems backbreaking but I'm not sure what else I'd board it in against.

I also like it against Merfolk. I recently played it against Nic Fit and it was a house (although he wasn't play swords). In general, I think it's good in matchups where a Tarmogoyf would be good (so usually not against decks like Solidarity/Goblins/Whatever)

[sclabman]

Tarmogoyf is good against goblins, what are you talking about?

[GreenHornet]

In regards to the Ghoultree, the old Parcher lists would run Greater Gargadon in the side. I feel it fills a similar role, but has more utility than Ghoultree. It lets sac Ichorid to keep it in game if it gets StP'd, lands that are targeted with wasteland, and creatures to get the most value in response to a crypt activation.

[HammerAndSickled]

In regards to the Ghoultree, the old Parcher lists would run Greater Gargadon in the side. I feel it fills a similar role, but has more utility than Ghoultree. It lets sac Ichorid to keep it in game if it gets StP'd, lands that are targeted with wasteland, and creatures to get the most value in response to a crypt activation.

I'm new here, so forgive me if I'm being ignorant, but the point of Ghoultree is to make their hate sort of irrelevant, besides Leyline. If they T1 a Grafdigger's Cage or have multiple Crypt effects you might never get to put creatures in play in the first place to sac to Gargadon, but you can essentially dredge the minimum amount and just start slamming 10/10s regardless of their hate.

As far as I know, if they don't see the Tree coming they can't do anything to stop you from casting it, because the cost of the spell is locked in when you start to cast it. So if they Crypt or Relic while Ghoultree is on the stack for G it still resolves, and they still have to deal with that guy. Many decks just can't beat a 10/10 quickly enough, and those that do have answers may have sided them out.

[GreenHornet]

From Parcher:

Gargadon costs one; easily accomplished. Gargadon sacrifices Creatures, Lands, and Artifacts, all expendable assets in this deck, to bring out a huge creature. Gargadon gives an additional Dread Return target. Most importantly, Gargadon allows sacrifice at instant speed. That is insane in this deck. "While still in Upkeep, Swords your Ichorid." Uh...no. I'll remove a counter from Gargadon to fizzle your Swords. Oh, and get two Zombies. Punk. "Waste your Coliseum." Nice try. Sac it to Gargadon, my turn? Swing for lots. "During your draw, after Bridges hit, sac Fanatic to kill your Ichorid." In response, get tokens, and here comes Big Red.

I know, none of this deals with Hate cards. Or can it? Not only can the instant speed of Gargadon's ability get maximum use in the face of a graveyard hoser, it can in some cases void it. Any combination of Putrid Imp and Golgari Thug makes an endlessly repeatable combo to where the enemy has virtually no good options. With PImp in play, you can recover from any grave-sweeper. With Thug in play, you can always return PImp to play by saccing Thug to Gargadon. If they can't kill PImp, you EOT sac Thug to return a Narcomoeba instead. Each of these cycles should also be gaining you Zombies. Board sweepers become irrelevant as well. If you have Thug and Narco, you get tokens. If you have Thug and PImp, you just continue Dredging the next turn. If you only have tokens, since they swept your board, and then they emptied your graveyard, well....they still have to deal with Big Red. He makes decisions for Aggro decks very difficult, and in conjunction with PImp and Thug, makes it impossible for control decks to win. Outside of Crypt and Relic, Jailer isn't really a threat compared to a resolved Gargadon.

Most RUG decks don't run cage. Usually they run surgical extraction and/or crypt. You're a faster clock so they have to do something to slow you. If they bolt their creature, extract, or ooze sac in response get the most value out of your bridges. Also, you can pay for daze off one land with gargadon.

Not saying he's better, just worth consideration.

[woremak]

From Parcher:


Most RUG decks don't run cage. Usually they run surgical extraction and/or crypt. You're a faster clock so they have to do something to slow you. If they bolt their creature, extract, or ooze sac in response get the most value out of your bridges. Also, you can pay for daze off one land with gargadon.

Not saying he's better, just worth consideration.

I never tried Gargodon and it also seems sweet, definitely worth testing. Ghoultree is nice because it is just a 10/10 but I'm definitely going to try the gargodons out.

[Smea.gol.lum]

I haven't tested Ghoultree yet, so i can only theorycraft a bit.

I think it's not so easy to catch players siding in Crypt effects off guard with Ghoultree.
When you side 4 Ghoultrees in, it is common to dredge one early in the game, what makes your opponent aware of this threat and smart opponents will blow up their Crypt/Relic earlier accordingly to prevent you from casting it for 1 or 2 mana.

The benefit of Ghoultree is that it is also a good bluffing measure, because if you don't have one in your opening hand, it will make your opponent blow up his Crypt/Relic earlier nevertheless in fear of it.
However, a graveyard with about 8 creatures in it is worth to be removed often times so I don't know how big the benefit is or if there is one at all.

What seems to be out of question is that it's a very good card against Cage and decks that are not able to remove him like RUG.

[Michael Keller]

Just arrived. I'll post updates throughout the day.

[Calado]

Just arrived. I'll post updates throughout the day.

Good luck man!

Guys, don't you think that Wreath of Geists is better than Ghoultree? Enchanting Pimp/Narcomoeba with it would make cage, relic, crypt and extraction much less effective.

[ZebraSleeves]

I played the traditional Quadlaser with Ashen ghoul sideboard and all that. Only difference is MD 1 darkblast replacing 1 golgari thug.

Round 1: Maverick

g1: This women seemed to be new to Legacy. She made a lazy/misinformed joke about how all dredge players must have hair on their palms. I proceeded to ejaculate zombie tokens onto her face.
g2: I made a major error here. She goes Savannah, Hierarch. Turn 1 I therapied for scavenging ooze and saw Thalia and Wasteland, but passed the turn without casting the LED in my hand. Next turn she casts Thalia and wastes my land and I die to the exalted 2/1.

1-0
g3: Grip is LED, 2 Land, 3 dredgers, breakthrough. I'm on the play. Need I say more?

Round 2: Storm

This is a local guy that I ALWAYS end up playing. We both know what to expect and its pretty straightforward.

g1: I won the die roll
g2: I start with Leyline of the void to stop the past in flames that was in his hand, but he Wishes for 8 goblin tokens. I don't find a draw spell quick enough.
g3: I mull to LED, Coliseum, gold land, and 3 dredgers. Try to set up a turn 2 coliseum, but he combos out turn 1.

1-1

Round 3: Affinity

g1: He doesnt do much that is relevant. He swings with a hug Inkmoth that has Cranial plating on it, but i darkblast it and he scoops.
g2: I take out 4 LED's and an Ichorid for 4 Nature's claim and an Undiscovered Paradise. He has crypt but not much else. I cast putrid imp and slow roll him without have to use any anti-hate.

2-1

Round 4: RUG

g1: Another local guy who I've played before. He Wastelands and Spell pierces me out of the game.

g2: Explode turn 1 and therapy him out of the game.

g3: Very exciting. Grinding through Relic of Progenitus and Wasteland, We go to time and the board position is me with 3 irrelevant cards in the graveyard, 4 cards in hand (Narcomoeba, Paradise, Ichorid, Bridge), A Zombie, 2 narcos and a Putrid imp in play. He has threshhold, 3 cards in hand, an untapped Goose and untapped Volcanic Island and Wasteland. He has a 3/3 ooze, 4/5 goyf, another 3/3 goose, and a Tropical Island tappped. I'm at 9 and he is at 4. I discard paradise to give imp flying and go in for 3 in the air. He asks: "damage?". I discard the rest of my hand to give imp threshold and he reveals that there was no lightning bolt in his hand.

3-1

Round 5: RUG

g1: This guy was very unlucky and I felt kind of awkward cuz he was getting very frustrated. He wasted my lands and pierced my outlets until he had no cards left, but I kept drawing lands and outlets and he didnt have enough to stop me.
g2: He has 2 crypts but gets manaflooded and I am able to win with putrid imp beats.

4-1

Round 6: Maverick

g1: My starting 7 has no land but an LED, Looting, and a few dredgers so I just bin my hand and start quick. I get a bridge, Ichorid and narco. He goes Savannah, GSZ for dryad arbor. Turn 2 I return Ichorid and attack, thinking I can get in a quick 3 damage. The guy reaches for my Bridge to read it and I realize that I forgot Dryad Arbor was a creature. we exchange and I get a token but lose the bridge. Then I have to therapy 2nd main and dont get any zombie out of it. I name ooze but he doesn't have it and drops Thalia next turn, locking me out since I don't have a land. If I had the bridge I could have slowly built up some zombies and overtaken him, but my crucial error cost me the game.

g2: I just explode.

g3: I dont side anything in but mull to 2 LED, Putrid Imp, Troll, gold land, coliseum which seems good. He goes Savannah, GSZ Dryad arbor. I go Land, Imp, Led, Led, Pass. He plays Wheel of Sun and Moon.

4-2

I end up getting 10th out of like 54, barely missing top 8. I will say that the deck itself seems perfect and all my losses were due to misplays and poor mulligan decisions. I'm still unsure of how to play the Merfolk matchup and the prison matchups like U/W control or Enchantress.

[Klazam]

Played manaless dredge at scg DC. Wasn't my day. Played against 3 people who had very heavy hate.

I learned that Thalia kills manaless dredge pretty bad- it gives him all the time to draw and cast scavenging ooze.

[Fizzeler]

I was playing Quadlazer went 4-3 then dropped

Round 1:
Played UR Delver, went on the aggro plan beat them down game 1, game 2 got me down to 1 life, but he didn't top deck the burn spell for the win so he conceded

Round 2:
Played against David Price, who was playing Zoo, stumbled and lost game 1, went nuts and combo'd off game 2, and aggro'd him out game 3.

Round 3:
Played Fish again lost game 1, game 2 combo'd turn 1 and won on turn 4, now game 3 was interesting he resolved propaganda after I combo'd off, I then proceeded to dig for my Nature's Claim (which got Forced), I had 1 out left and hardcasted a Golgari Grave-Troll for the victory it was intense

Round 4:
Lost to Maverick turn 2 Thalia followed by Ooze game 1, game 2 similar situation occured

Round 5:
Beat Fish in games 2 and 3 by comboing off he out aggro'd me game 1

Round 6:
Again lost to Maverick combo'd game 1, lost the next 2 games from thalia and and Wasteland + Dryad Arbor

Round 7:
Lost to B/G Infect in games 2 and 3 after he Rancor'd an Ichorclaw Myr and then game 3 mulligan to 5 kept a bad hand on the play, but he also kept an okay hand and won

[Michael Keller]

I was going to post updates throughout the day, unfortunately my day came to a screeching halt incredibly early in the event due to an uncanny set of circumstances that would make even the faintest of competitive Magic players' hearts sink.

I was on my traditional LED Dredge as I couldn't find Ghoultree(s) in time for the event. No worries.

In rounds one, three and four, my deck was being controlled by otherworldly forces. In each of those rounds, I proceeded to cast land, LED, Breakthrough, Troll...into more gas (including multiple Trolls) and Looting(s) and could not - in ANY of those games - hit a Narcomoeba or Cabal Therapy - at all. It was basically like living a horrible nightmare over and over and over again.

In one of those scenarios, I didn't even hit a Bridge.

To make matters worse, each of my opponents in these situations were dead in the water (saw their hands postmortem) and I died in two out of those three rounds to top-decked Crypts/Ooze/etc. My deck was thoroughly shuffled after each round and at the beginning of each match; it just so happened that they managed to find their way to the bottom quarter/fifth of my deck - three times under the same circumstances - and ultimately blasting apart my chances of any sort of run.

Needless to say, I dropped after round four.

[KobeBryan]

I was going to post updates throughout the day, unfortunately my day came to a screeching halt incredibly early in the event due to an uncanny set of circumstances that would make even the faintest of competitive Magic players' hearts sink.

I was on my traditional LED Dredge as I couldn't find Ghoultree(s) in time for the event. No worries.

In rounds one, three and four, my deck was being controlled by otherworldly forces. In each of those rounds, I proceeded to cast land, LED, Breakthrough, Troll...into more gas (including multiple Trolls) and Looting(s) and could not - in ANY of those games - hit a Narcomoeba or Cabal Therapy - at all. It was basically like living a horrible nightmare over and over and over again.

In one of those scenarios, I didn't even hit a Bridge.

To make matters worse, each of my opponents in these situations were dead in the water (saw their hands postmortem) and I died in two out of those three rounds to top-decked Crypts/Ooze/etc. My deck was thoroughly shuffled after each round and at the beginning of each match; it just so happened that they managed to find their way to the bottom quarter/fifth of my deck - three times under the same circumstances- and ultimately blasting apart my chances of any sort of run.

Needless to say, I dropped after round four.

sorry hollywood. I was hoping you pull something for dredge today.

[sperry023]

:frown: Sorry, everyone.

Are you prepared to release super-secret-Ghoultree tech, then?

Edit: Eek, apparently everybody came prepared... three pages of deck lists (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2012-08-05&end_date=2012-08-05&event_ID=20&start_num=50&start_num=0&limit=25) and graveyard decks are NOWHERE to be found.

[Tammit67]

Yeah, that was horrid, Hollywood. Sorry about the bad beats. It was nice to meet you though.

Klazam, I think my friend played you in one of the later rounds. Dylan Grimes with Maverick? He said he played a deaf dredge player who was on manaless. Don't know if you dropped soon after that, but I spent the rest of the day trying to meet you :(

Some of the top 8 at the tournament skimp'd a little on GY hate, although there still seems to be enough people worried about reanimator/ keeping mongoose below threshold for things to work out for the average player.

Ghoul tree seems insane. I've seen a lot of cages

[Klazam]

I think that was me, yeah.

He wrecked me with Thalia, ooze, and knight, right? edit: (nope)

Edit- I looked it up. His deck wasn't maverick, it was RUG delver. He killed me with grafdigger's cage in the sixth round. I dropped after I lost in the seventh.

[Michael Keller]

It was truly great getting to meet you guys at the Open!

[Tammit67]

I think that was me, yeah.

He wrecked me with Thalia, ooze, and knight, right? edit: (nope)

Edit- I looked it up. His deck wasn't maverick, it was RUG delver. He killed me with grafdigger's cage in the sixth round. I dropped after I lost in the seventh.

That's the one. He was playing maverick for the past month, my bad.

I really want to see dredge do well, but I'm not sold on manaless

[plimplam]

Preparing a big tournament for next month, this is the list and the side plans:

3 golgari thug
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari grave troll
4 putrid imp
4 narcomoeba
3 ichorid

1 dread return
4 cabal therapy
4 careful study
4 faithless looting
4 breakthrough

4 led

4 puentes

4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
4 cephalid coliseum
1 tarnished citadel

SB:
4 nature's claim
1 undiscovered paradise
1 tarnished citadel
3 ashen ghoul
4 leyline of the void
1 darkblast (pacekeepers in uw miracles basically)
1 memory's journey??

Is a quadliser list with small changes -1 ichorid -1 golgari thug +1 dread return
+1 land.

Sideboard plans:

Maverick:
None

Stoneblade:
-4 breakthrough -1 led +2 lands +3 ashen ghoul

UW miracles:
G2 in: 2 lands 3 ashen ghoul 1 memorys 3 natures out: 4 led 4 break 1 dread return. In G3 i'll side in function of g2.

Reanimator:
- 1ichorid -3 putrid imp -1 careful study +4 leyline +1 memorys

S&T:
-4 led +4 nature's claim

Canadian:
-4 led -1 breakthrough +2 lands +3 ashen ghoul

Thoughts? :)

[Mikeš]

Hello Dredge players!

I recently came back to legacy and as I love combo decks (played combo elves before) I decided to play Dredge. So far I played one smaller tournament (16 ppl) and went 1:3. All the losses were funny because my opponents were really terrible...they were exiling wrong cards from my grave and stuff but I got unlucky when I didn't dredge anything after dredging five times in t2 and then my opponent drew Crypt from the top....you know usual stuff. That's not why I am writing here though :)

I thought I understand my deck well and realized it was only partly true...I have big leaks in sideboarding.

I have tried to google some general guide, but I only found some outdated stuff(also didn't find it here in OP).

I have a regular quadlazer build right now (I own Dread returns and all the big dudes but I chose quadlazer in the first tournament).



Since every opponent can pack Crypts, Relic, Leylines, Cages... Do you always pack in Nature's Claim in game 2? How do you decide on this? what to side out?

I won all pre-SB games in the tournament, but then when I looked at my sideboard I felt like the dog behind wheel with capiton "I have no idea what I am doing here" :)

If someone can point me in the right direction with sideboarding....please do :)

Thx for replies

[plimplam]

Read this article, but yuo should say what version are you playing with:

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2890

[Mikeš]

Read this article, but yuo should say what version are you playing with:

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2890

I did say the version....I am playing Quadlazer LED dredge. Thx for the link. Will read it ASAP :)

[plimplam]

Yeap I saw it but I want it to be a surprise :)

[Final Fortune]

That SB guide is wrong, your SBing strategy for game 2 should never be your SBing strategy for game 3, because you're "guaranteed" to be on the draw game 2 and on the play game 3 where it changes the value of your Lion's Eye Diamond significantly, dictates whether or not you can rely on DDD and gives you additional information into what hate your opponent is playing. Typically, I'll SB out 4 Lion's Eye Diamond for 3 Ashen Ghoul and 1 Tarnished Citadel on the draw game 2 because I plan to just DDD thru' my opponent's hate with my increased threat generation. If I see his only hate card is Tormod's Crypt game 2, then I'm SBing my Lion's Eye Diamond back in and going for the blow out game 3 on the play.

Having a SBing "guide" is really stupid, especially with Dredge of all decks because you're essentially the "reactive" deck to your opponent's hate post-board.

[Fizzeler]

That SB guide is wrong, your SBing strategy for game 2 should never be your SBing strategy for game 3, because you're "guaranteed" to be on the draw game 2 and on the play game 3 where it changes the value of your Lion's Eye Diamond significantly, dictates whether or not you can rely on DDD and gives you additional information into what hate your opponent is playing. Typically, I'll SB out 4 Lion's Eye Diamond for 3 Ashen Ghoul and 1 Tarnished Citadel on the draw game 2 because I plan to just DDD thru' my opponent's hate with my increased threat generation. If I see his only hate card is Tormod's Crypt game 2, then I'm SBing my Lion's Eye Diamond back in and going for the blow out game 3 on the play.

Having a SBing "guide" is really stupid, especially with Dredge of all decks because you're essentially the "reactive" deck to your opponent's hate post-board.

This^

I would not have a Sideboard guide, but would board based on what you expect to be boarded in for GY hate and then hate for their deck itself

[TerribleTim68]

...My deck was thoroughly shuffled after each round and at the beginning of each match; it just so happened that they managed to find their way to the bottom quarter/fifth of my deck - three times under the same circumstances- and ultimately blasting apart my chances of any sort of run...

I've been there dude! That's why I've spent so much time trying to learn "how to shuffle". I know there has to be a way, I play against guys who ALWAYS get the nuts opening hand and ALWAYS (and I mean ALWAYS) draw their SB hate in games 2/3 yet I can't seem to figure it out. Either they know something I don't or I just suck at shuffling. :frown:

[plimplam]

This^

I would not have a Sideboard guide, but would board based on what you expect to be boarded in for GY hate and then hate for their deck itself

That's it, like a sideboard plan, but that plan can always change because of the specific hate.
But there is always not flexible people that just want to criticate.

[Fizzeler]

That's it, like a sideboard plan, but that plan can always change because of the specific hate.
But there is always not flexible people that just want to criticate.

There is always the Random hate card thrown in that you won't expect and can't prepare for, like Propaganda from the Fish deck

I usually ended up boarded in my Nether Shadows G2 against Fair Decks (especially if they had Snapcaster) as I always put them on Surgical Extraction, this worked out well for me at the open and turned out to be the right call, even if it slows down the Quadlazer list a bit it still led to some explosive turn 1s games 2 and 3 :smile:

A card I am on the fence about for Sideboard is Ancient Grudge, I have yet to board it in (I am running 4 Nature's Claim) should I just swap it for another Dread Return?

[Anusien]

There is always the Random hate card thrown in that you won't expect and can't prepare for, like Propaganda from the Fish deck

I usually ended up boarded in my Nether Shadows G2 against Fair Decks (especially if they had Snapcaster) as I always put them on Surgical Extraction, this worked out well for me at the open and turned out to be the right call, even if it slows down the Quadlazer list a bit it still led to some explosive turn 1s games 2 and 3 :smile:

A card I am on the fence about for Sideboard is Ancient Grudge, I have yet to board it in (I am running 4 Nature's Claim) should I just swap it for another Dread Return?
Ancient Grudge is nominally better than Nature's Claim at killing Crypts and Grudges. I am skeptical that you need that sort of effect, but if you do, you probably don't need 5 of it.

[HokusSchmokus]

Problem about Grudge is that you cannot flash it back against Cage(obv)and it is harder to play through daze. I always have 1 Grudge in my board,but I only really board it against Storm

[Izor]

Problem about Grudge is that you cannot flash it back against Cage(obv)and it is harder to play through daze. I always have 1 Grudge in my board,but I only really board it against Storm

Wouldn't you rather keep more good cards in your deck than trying to hit LEDs with Ancient Grudge? A smart Storm player is not going to fall to that trap. I boad my 1-off Grudge against Stoneblade and Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb stuff.

[TerribleTim68]

...A smart Storm player is not going to fall to that trap. ...

He'll fall when I hit him over the head with my trade binder, I know that! :tongue:

[joemauer]

Wouldn't you rather keep more good cards in your deck than trying to hit LEDs with Ancient Grudge? A smart Storm player is not going to fall to that trap. I boad my 1-off Grudge against Stoneblade and Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb stuff.

A smart storm player will play out his Lion's Eye Diamonds as soon as possible to avoid them from being stripped by Cabal Therapy.

[HokusSchmokus]

Wouldn't you rather keep more good cards in your deck than trying to hit LEDs with Ancient Grudge? A smart Storm player is not going to fall to that trap. I boad my 1-off Grudge against Stoneblade and Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb stuff.

It's only -1 Ichorid +1 Ancient Grudge.
And as Joemauer said,a smart stormplayer will most likely fall to that trap because he will play out LED as soon as he draws them.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Hi guys,

finally my article / tournament report from GP Ghent got published. I played Quadlaser Dredge to a 37th place finish. Here's the article:

www.eternal-central.com/?p=2931

Regards,

Erik

[Fizzeler]

Hi guys,

finally my article / tournament report from GP Ghent got published. I played Quadlaser Dredge to a 37th place finish. Here's the article:

www.eternal-central.com/?p=2931

Regards,

Erik
Nice job, Hypergenesis sounds rough man :/

Good job beating Maverick though

[Final Fortune]

I'm consistently winning all of my game 1s with only 2 MD Ichorid right now, does anybody else want to test this to make certain I'm not just completely luck sacking my games? I've ran into a few problems vs Goblins playing 4xMogg Fanatic and removing my bridges, but Ichorid beat down doesn't really seem to be the key element in killing my opponent as opposed to just mind twisting him, generating tokens and using the Ichorids to keep generating tokens or adding in a lightning bolt here or there.

Do we basically just win the game with Cabal Therapy and Bridge from Below?

[mort-]

I'm consistently winning all of my game 1s with only 2 MD Ichorid right now, does anybody else want to test this to make certain I'm not just completely luck sacking my games? I've ran into a few problems vs Goblins playing 4xMogg Fanatic and removing my bridges, but Ichorid beat down doesn't really seem to be the key element in killing my opponent as opposed to just mind twisting him, generating tokens and using the Ichorids to keep generating tokens or adding in a lightning bolt here or there.

Do we basically just win the game with Cabal Therapy and Bridge from Below?

I tested two Ichorids too, but I didn't like it very much. Adding a third one did wonders for me :)

[sperry023]

Won an 8-man last night at my FLGS running Quadlaser... it was my third Legacy tournament ever and my first since last summer with non-LED Dredge. Granted, the competition was not tough; my first and third rounds were against janky Reanimator builds. I also saw High Tide, Kobold-Combo, and non-LED Dredge. Essentially, players win by vomiting on the table and taking over before their opponent's out-play them.

Round 2 was against BUG and he was actually good. Still, sometimes you just go Turn 1 land, LED, Breakthrough and there's nothing they can do. Game 2 was really grindy, but in the end the Ashen Ghoul plan prevailed, getting him by exactsies with a few Narcomoebas, Zombies, and a Ghoul with exactly three creatures above it against two Goyfs. He Snapcaster-Extirpated my Ichorids and Trolls mid-game, but it wasn't enough.

I lost game 2 against my last Reanimator opponent because of a MD Blazing Archon. Situations like this really make me look back at DR packages, at least in the side.

[Claymore-One]

Hey fellow sourcers,

I recently just got back from an 8 month deployment. There's so many threads and posts around, that I don't think I can catch on. I used to be able to keep up with the posts and stuff, but not this time. Anyway, what match ups has changed since this past 8 months? What new threats to watch out for, what hate if any has changed, new decks, and how to go on handling such? Any new possible DR targets as well or perhaps card draws that may have changed over this past 8 months?

I regularly play with the 15 land ghastless build, with 2 dread returns, and 1 singleton DR target and 3 tribes.

Many thanks ahead of time.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So I am going to try my luck at SCG Denver. Here is a list I am debating on playing. It's between this and a UW countertop build. I mainly have questions about my sideboard, but if you see something in the maindeck that you think is questionable, I am open to ideas.

List:
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Dakmor Salvage

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
1 Deep Analysis

2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Gravecrawler
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
1Terestadon
1 Angel of Despair
1 Eternal Witness

I've been playing dredge since it first became a Deck to Beat, but it's been off and on. I'm a pretty decent pilot, and like to have a well-rounded list as opposed to something like Quadlazer (Please don't suggest it, I've tried it and I hate it).

First, I haven't had an opportunity to test the 'crawlers because there's nothing in my local metagame that I need to grind out against; are they a fairly still a solid strategy with only 11 lands, 3 of which kill themselves, 3 that don't tap for black mana, and 1 that CIPT? I know I don't have removal other than the grudges in the board, but I really don't know what to do. I like flayer, it makes every control matchup a breeze. All I have to do is resolve a Dread Return and I have it (StP should obv be stripped from their hand first).

I am actually really wanting 2 Street Wraiths in the 75 somewhere to combat Extraction.

Anyway, I need the help fine-tuning it. Thanks for the help, will check back tonight to respond to any discussion.

--ABC

I have every card imaginable for ichorid dredge, don't hesitate to mention any card, I have it.

[joemauer]

So.....
Random Jargon
I see some problems with your list here.

Firstly the lands should be twelve lands at the least. I would cut deep anal for your other land. Most times you pop LED will be for red so deep anal will rarely be cast. Replace Dakmor Salvage with a better land, it is a bad dredger and a bad land. You want City, Gemstone Mine, and Cephalid all as four ofs.

Secondly the Dread Return package. If you want a Dread Return package I would run Dread Return x3 + Grizzilbrand + Flayer. I would cut the fourth Ichorid for the third Dread Return. Adding Flayer will free up spots in your sideboard and Grisselbrand will help you combo more often. Elesh seems like it should be in your sideboard unless your Meta is nothing but tribal.

Finally the sideboard. You have way too many Dread Return targets in there. Stick with Elesh, Angel of Despair, and perhaps a second Grizzlebrand or maybe Iona. Three should be plenty. Also, is there any reason you have no way to kill enchantments?

I haven't personally tested Gravecrawler but the general consesus with him is Ashen Ghoul is better.

[Fizzeler]

Hey fellow sourcers,

I recently just got back from an 8 month deployment. There's so many threads and posts around, that I don't think I can catch on. I used to be able to keep up with the posts and stuff, but not this time. Anyway, what match ups has changed since this past 8 months? What new threats to watch out for, what hate if any has changed, new decks, and how to go on handling such? Any new possible DR targets as well or perhaps card draws that may have changed over this past 8 months?

I regularly play with the 15 land ghastless build, with 2 dread returns, and 1 singleton DR target and 3 tribes.

Many thanks ahead of time.

the new hate is Grafdigger's Cage and Surgical Extraction, while the former is easy to deal with via Nature's Claims the latter requires more resilient builds or they could simply Extract your recurable creatures and shut you out of the game

Faithless Looting has shifted Dredge into more LED builds and the 4 of Quadlazer build, which is a build with 4 of almost everything (Therapies, Studies, Lootings, LEDs, Mines, Cities, Coliseums, Breakthroughs, Ichorids, Dredgers) and no Dread Returns

Another interesting plan has been the Painter's Servant board plan, while interesting I still don't think it is viable

In other news played at a local Legacy event yesterday went 2-0 then split the finals (after which we played it out and he beat me 2-1), it was my friend/playtester in the finals on Death And Taxes, game 1 got shut out by Thalia, game 2 barely killed him, and game 3 could not go off through Thalia and Relic so lost

All other games I won 2-0 in the tourney against Nic Fit and CounterTop

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I see some problems with your list here.

Firstly the lands should be twelve lands at the least. I would cut deep anal for your other land. Most times you pop LED will be for red so deep anal will rarely be cast. Replace Dakmor Salvage with a better land, it is a bad dredger and a bad land. You want City, Gemstone Mine, and Cephalid all as four ofs.

Secondly the Dread Return package. If you want a Dread Return package I would run Dread Return x3 + Grizzilbrand + Flayer. I would cut the fourth Ichorid for the third Dread Return. Adding Flayer will free up spots in your sideboard and Grisselbrand will help you combo more often. Elesh seems like it should be in your sideboard unless your Meta is nothing but tribal.

Finally the sideboard. You have way too many Dread Return targets in there. Stick with Elesh, Angel of Despair, and perhaps a second Grizzlebrand or maybe Iona. Three should be plenty. Also, is there any reason you have no way to kill enchantments?

I haven't personally tested Gravecrawler but the general consesus with him is Ashen Ghoul is better.

I guess I'm trying to go a more dread return oriented list. Here is my mindset -- Narcomoeba, Ichorid, and post-sideboard, its nice to be able to cast a dread return to make anywhere from 6 to 12 zombies from the Flashback sacrifice cost. Even without it resolving, you have accomplished something, which is accumulating an undead army quickly, along with recursion each turn from there on out. It's another sacrifice outlet essentially, and if it does resolve, Elesh Norn is insane with both Ichorid and co., but is also a wonderful utility creature killer. If you can get her out, she wins games. Then, FKZ is still really good. Against control, I board in 2 Flayers, and would even like a 3rd Dread Return in the SB for the control matchup. It's awesome 2nd main phase dread returning one and then killing it with a Therapy to deal a ton of mana without having to rely on being able to attack with an army or with recursion beats.

More choice evals to come. What's another option for a 12th land, and why do ya play Tarnished Citadel/Undiscovered Paradise over Forbidden Orchard?

I gotta go to bed. L8.

--ABC

[joemauer]

Forbidden Orchard is bad because Ichorid and Bridge from Below are the way the deck wins. Giving opponents tokens causes problems.

[Mindlash]

I guess I'm trying to go a more dread return oriented list. Here is my mindset -- Narcomoeba, Ichorid, and post-sideboard, its nice to be able to cast a dread return to make anywhere from 6 to 12 zombies from the Flashback sacrifice cost. Even without it resolving, you have accomplished something, which is accumulating an undead army quickly, along with recursion each turn from there on out. It's another sacrifice outlet essentially, and if it does resolve, Elesh Norn is insane with both Ichorid and co., but is also a wonderful utility creature killer. If you can get her out, she wins games. Then, FKZ is still really good. Against control, I board in 2 Flayers, and would even like a 3rd Dread Return in the SB for the control matchup. It's awesome 2nd main phase dread returning one and then killing it with a Therapy to deal a ton of mana without having to rely on being able to attack with an army or with recursion beats.

More choice evals to come. What's another option for a 12th land, and why do ya play Tarnished Citadel/Undiscovered Paradise over Forbidden Orchard?

I gotta go to bed. L8.

--ABC

The first 12 Lands should be City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, Cephalid Coliseum, because they have the smallest drawbacks.

I do not like Dakmor Salvage because you do often need other colors of mana. Out of my mind you could only cast PImp, Thug and "hardcast" Therapy with it. I would only play Salvage in a list with Bloodghast.

If you need more lands I would use a mix of Undiscovered Paradise and Tarnished Citadel. I favor Citadel because it makes it easier to activate Coliseum and can help against Daze more reliably.

Another Land I have seen in Dredge is Forsaken City. I have seen in only once in a list from Parcher. I have never tested it myself.

Forbidden Orchard gives your Opponent a free chump blocker to get rid of your bridges which I like a lot less then losing 3 life due to Citadel.

If I would be using Dread Return I would probably use 3 DR, 1 Grisel, 1 FKZ with 1 Elesh, 1 Flayer, 1 Angel of Despair in the Board. Perhaps I would switch FKZ and Elesh and/or cut FKZ at all. But its a personal choice...I just do not like FKZ :-/

In regards
Chris

Edit:
I would also cut Deep Analysis. 4 Study/Looting are so much better. Study is easier to cast due to Coliseum and Looting is a lot better then Deep Analysis. This card just makes the Deck more unconsistent.

You should also get something like Nature's Claim or Chains of Vapor into your SB to have the opportunity to fight Leyline/Cage. I usually have 1 Grudge in my board against some matchups but I did not use it against Cage (cast from hand) ever.

I also find Ashen Ghoul more reliable in fighting Surgical. Its conditions are easier met then Gravecrawlers. 10 Rainbowmana should be the lowest count to use them reliably. I use 11 Rainbowlands postboard and enough. 8 Rainbowmana may be a bit low with Gemstone blowing up after some uses.

Iona may be worth a try and I would also use Terastodon or Angel of Despair. Not both.

[MTG Junkie]

Iv been thinking about picking up Dredge again.
I played a lot of LEDless as well as LED Dredge. I always liked LEDless better. I relize it may not be the best call for the current meta but its just the way I prefer Dredge.
I do like the edition of faithless looting. I feel like if I make a LEDless build I would want to some how include Faithless Looting,but is it really worth it without LED? Probably not.

I don't know,I don't know what I'm gonna do. There has to be a compromise.

[Calado]

It's worth it even without LED. You can play grindy games with tribe, or be faster with looting.
I'm playing LEDless with looting currently, and it's pretty consistent on making tons of tokens turn 2/3.

[HokusSchmokus]

I guess I'm trying to go a more dread return oriented list. Here is my mindset -- Narcomoeba, Ichorid, and post-sideboard, its nice to be able to cast a dread return to make anywhere from 6 to 12 zombies from the Flashback sacrifice cost. Even without it resolving, you have accomplished something, which is accumulating an undead army quickly, along with recursion each turn from there on out. It's another sacrifice outlet essentially, and if it does resolve, Elesh Norn is insane with both Ichorid and co., but is also a wonderful utility creature killer. If you can get her out, she wins games. Then, FKZ is still really good. Against control, I board in 2 Flayers, and would even like a 3rd Dread Return in the SB for the control matchup. It's awesome 2nd main phase dread returning one and then killing it with a Therapy to deal a ton of mana without having to rely on being able to attack with an army or with recursion beats.


It seems to me tgat you overvoard against the control matchup. I'd rather add other recursive threats G2 against control. Hardcasting DR isn't realistic(exspecially with under 15 lands) and DR is particularly bad against control(if they are smart/don't draw
shitty a DR is pretty hard to set up imo)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Meh, never mind. I think I'm just going to go quadlazer. I hate it, but it's posting results. Can't beat'em, join them...

[iPhael]

Meh, never mind. I think I'm just going to go quadlazer. I hate it, but it's posting results. Can't beat'em, join them...

I've boarded out dread return in literally every match I've played these past few weeks. The extra Ichorid and respective food is absolutely invaluable.

[MTG Junkie]

It's worth it even without LED. You can play grindy games with tribe, or be faster with looting.
I'm playing LEDless with looting currently, and it's pretty consistent on making tons of tokens turn 2/3.

Are you playing LED less because you don't own LEDs? Or do you prefer it?
Did you cut Breakthrough for Looting?
What do your #s look like?

[Dicedealer6486]

I've been doing some testing for legacy champs at gencon with led less dredge, I've been really happy with it despite owning the led's, I'm currently 85% on playing it. I stared with led quad laser cut led for tarnished citadel and an Ichorid for a singleton dread return.

[4eak]

LED Dredge is strictly better than LEDless at this point. It's extremely consistent, and the speed is worth it. Before Faithless Looting, I strongly preferred LEDless, but not anymore. LEDless is a fine budget version of the deck at this point.



peace,
4eak

[Final Fortune]

Are you playing LED less because you don't own LEDs? Or do you prefer it?
Did you cut Breakthrough for Looting?
What do your #s look like?

Just replace 4 Lion's Eye Diamonds for 4 Tarnished Citadels in Quad Lazer, there's an argument for cutting 1 Golgari Thug, 1 Tarnished Citadel and 1 Ichorid for 3 Tireless Tribe IMO. It's not as "optimal" mulligan wise, but it's far more resistent to counter spells and Tormod's Crypts and usually ensures you can discard your entire hand instead of getting in ugly situations where you have to open with a Careful Study in order to start dredging with your second draw spell or Cephalid Coliseum (you get royally fucked by Spell Pierce in these scenarious fwiw).

@thread

Yeah, Dread Return packages are garbage IMO, because you're playing 4 more MD slots that you have to SB out vs hate or you're losing serious SB space in order to board in; Ashen Ghouls, Tarnished Citadels and Putrid Imps in order to converge into your post-board configuration. I don't think they add meaningfully enough to your win percentage in order to justify losing hate cards or answers to hate cards in your SB.

[Homason]

@thread

Yeah, Dread Return packages are garbage IMO, because you're playing 4 more MD slots that you have to SB out vs hate or you're losing serious SB space in order to board in; Ashen Ghouls, Tarnished Citadels and Putrid Imps in order to converge into your post-board configuration. I don't think they add meaningfully enough to your win percentage in order to justify losing hate cards or answers to hate cards in your SB.


First of all i agree that Maindeck packages are garbage but I think a single Elesh Norn is worth playing it in in the SB. It improves your matchup vs Rug, Maverick and Tribals. Maverick is one of the worst Matchups out there, if you arent able to blow them out on turn 2-3.
It is possible to play one DR in the Maindeck and one DR and Elesh in the SB. Because of this "tech" I prefer to play nether shadows over ashen ghouls. They come in for free specially vs Rug. Besides that, there is another reason: I often stuck on returning ashen gouls because i didnt have a land.

After all i came to the following list:
MD
3 Ichorid
1 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Putrid Imp
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return

4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
2 Tarnished Citadel

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature’s Claim
3 Nether Shadow
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn

I added a second Grudge because my meta is stoneblade Heavy, if there are many SneakShow-Players it could be an Angel of Dispair. Otherwise there would be room for an Ingot Chewer, Ray of Revelation or other good Stuff.

Regards,
Homason

[HokusSchmokus]

Meh, never mind. I think I'm just going to go quadlazer. I hate it, but it's posting results. Can't beat'em, join them...

If you hate it, don't play it. There are plenty of other good lists. Check out the lists from Hollywood for example. If you play DR + target just don't play cute stuff like FKZ, play targets that always do something like Elesh or Sun Titan imo. You can definately play a competitive list with DR, just make sure you get some input for your MD, because the list you posted was lacking quite a bit imo(no offense). I haven't touched my DRs in quite a while, but I am sure that some of the others can help.
Edit: i just noticed...is Stoneblade still a deck? I cannot remember playing against it for like forever, but it seems that some others run into it regularly...oh how I envy you...:(

[Final Fortune]

If you play a Dread Return package, I think 2xDread Return, 2xGrislebrand is probably the best one, because Griselbrand pretty much does everything you could ask and the second Dread Return can always target a Golgari Grave Troll.

I really don't think relying on Dread Return + targets post-board is viable vs hate, you need regular guys like Ichorid and Ashen Ghoul to trigger activations.

@4reak

I don't think LED Dredge is strictly better than LEDless Dredge, because the latter is more consistent and has a higher win rate vs. aggro-control, control etc. fwiw. It's just that without LED we're definitely at a loss vs stuff like Storm and Reanimator that we can no longer race.

I could go either way honestly, as long as you're playing 4 Faithless Looting you're pretty much doing it right, lands vs LEDs has its trade offs.

[Calado]

Are you playing LED less because you don't own LEDs? Or do you prefer it?
Did you cut Breakthrough for Looting?
What do your #s look like?

I play LEDless because I don't own LEDs. Breakthrough is amazing, don't cut it. My list is like Final Fortune said: Quadlazer trading LED for Tarnished Citadel, and one Ichorid for a Darkblast (could be memory's journey, DR, etc).
LEDless would be better than LED dredge with a relevant DR target, but when I try this it become less consistent.

[yutang]

This is my current list. Its basically a Quad-Lazer list but modified to include the explosive power of Dread Return.

4 Putrid Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
1 Dread Return
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel

1 Dread Return
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ichorid
1 Angel of Despair
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria


What are your thoughts? I'm thinking this is a good balance between the consistency of Quad-lazer and the power of Dread Return lists.

[Final Fortune]

I've played the same main deck as you, -1 Golgari Thug for +1 Dark Blast, so I can say your MD is viable but your SB is not. You're really not going to get any meaningful utility out of a 2nd Dread Return and 3 Dread Return targets in your SB. You need to SB cards that you can rely on vs. hate, not SB cards that win more when you're uncontested by your opponent.

[TerribleTim68]

Okay, I guess I need some schooling. Can someone educate me on the fine art of "slow dredging"? How do I know when to draw, how do I know how much dredging to do, how do I know how much to draw, etc. My experience with this deck is that it straight rolls just about everything game one, but when the crypts, extractions and so on come in I tend to have no game.

Also, my meta tends to be rather "blue". What's the money cards for the sb against them? I'm running a DR package too.

[igri_is_a_bk]

The deck is designed well to fight blue. Just pack 13-14 lands, don't use DR, and you're good. They will want to stop: Putrid Imp, Careful Study, Faithless Looting, LED, and Breakthrough. All the while, you also have Therapy to clear the path. It's not the worst match up.

The "money" sb cards against them are more lands and Ashen Ghoul.

[TerribleTim68]

That all sounds great, but when facing both Crypt and Extraction how do you stay in the game? Even when I boarded in the Ghouls it wasn't really a contest.

I guess I just don't understand "how to play" against that match.

[Zodiark]

For being afraid of those painful times, where I'm not sure what the best decision is I use 2 Memory's Journey. That card was discussed sometime ago with some fierce arguments by those who like and who dislike it.
Anyway I like the card as it can save my ass (3 cards sometimes means 3 Bridges or any combination of DDD, that you may need soon or later), and it's flexible in the mirror, also vs Reanimator!

[TerribleTim68]

Yea, you know I tried Memory's Journey. I wasn't super thrilled with it. But then again, I may not know how to use it best.

[Gui]

LED Dredge is strictly better than LEDless at this point. It's extremely consistent, and the speed is worth it. Before Faithless Looting, I strongly preferred LEDless, but not anymore. LEDless is a fine budget version of the deck at this point.



peace,
4eak

I think LEDless can still have strenghts that LED doesn't, since it runs more lands MD, while LED uses them SB.

That said, what really pushes LED to be better than LEDless is that the best solution against Maverick is going nuts, and a fine tunned LED list can do that better than a fine tunned LEDless list, and with the bonus % chance to crit and go off on turn 1.

In a meta low on Maverick (unlikely?) or heavy on hate, maybe LEDless can have an edge.

[Izor]

As long as people board out LEDs in certain matchups, LED Dredge is never going to be strictly better than LEDless.

LED is still potentially faster and more combo-ish, but more fragile and inconsistent. This has been the case for years. Before Lootings, LED Dredge was just a bit faster and a lot more inconsistent, so people played LEDless. Looting improved the speed and consistency of LED Dredge. It's now even faster and at the same time, the consistency discrepancy has diminished.

[4eak]

By strictly better, I don't mean that there aren't cases where LEDless performs better than LED Dredge. Although, I can't think of a real matchup (I can generate artificial decks where I prefer LEDless, but that isn't what I'm talking about) where I prefer to play LEDless. What I mean by strictly better: given a developed and competitive metagame, LEDless is noticeably less effective, on average, than LED Dredge.


I don't think LED Dredge is strictly better than LEDless Dredge, because the latter is more consistent and has a higher win rate vs. aggro-control, control etc. fwiw. It's just that without LED we're definitely at a loss vs stuff like Storm and Reanimator that we can no longer race.

LEDless is not more consistent, imho. I've kept records of LED Dredge in a spreadsheet to give me some perspective, and I'm finding that with proper mulligans, LED Dredge is likely just as (if not more) consistent as LEDless.

Please give me examples (decklists if you have the time) of competitive, tier 1 decks where you honestly prefer LEDless to LED Dredge. Explain why you prefer LEDless in these matchups.


I think LEDless can still have strenghts that LED doesn't, since it runs more lands MD, while LED uses them SB.

This just isn't necessarily true. I run 14 lands in both LED and LEDless. There are a variety of ways to build both decks. LEDless vs. Quadlazer, you are correct. I think Quadlazer is misguided.

One of the strengths that LEDless has usually had over LED dredge is being more effective at slow-rolling, particularly in game 1 (where LEDless has more permanent discard outlets). I'm not even convinced anymore that LEDless is a better deck at slow-dredging in game 1. LED Dredge has just as many discard outlets, and it can dig deeper (as it is trading in permanent discard outlets for a higher density of draw/discard outlets) than most LEDless lists (meaning, LED Dredge can actually see more dredgers than LEDless does in opening hands).


As long as people board out LEDs in certain matchups, LED Dredge is never going to be strictly better than LEDless.

Not clearly true either.

LED is at its absolute best in game 1 because you are looking for raw speed and consistency without worrying much about overextending. Once your opponent has access to their sideboard (which almost always has some GY hate), and overextending becomes a very real risk, then cards like LED and Breakthrough become far less valuable.

Just because one might board out LED's doesn't mean it isn't strictly the best card for game 1. Game 1, LED Dredge is king by a ridiculous margin. I've lost far more game 1's with LEDless than LED Dredge. Games 2 and 3, that's LEDless's only chance to catchup to LED Dredge. It doesn't though.

Boarding does matter, but not the way you've implied. LEDless has one major strength going for it in games 2 and 3; LEDless is generally thought to be pre-boarded, and thus may have more sideboard space than a comparable LED Dredge deck. I've not found the difference in sideboard space to really increase the odds of winning so much so that I would sacrifice the amazing game 1's that I get with LED Dredge.



peace,
4eak

[Calado]

LED dredge won't see more dredgers in hand neither after mulligans since LEDless don't run 11 dredgers (like some 14 lands LED versions).
Actually, LEDless is tuned towards increasing the chance of having the good "land draw dredger discard" hand.
Since we're staying that consistency is having this sort of opening hand, LEDless mustn't be less consistent than LED version, because the first has 16 lands, which are the only cards besides dredgers that will make you mulligan.
I agree with 4eak about the maverick matchup (and would include show and tell too) being hard, but I'm looking for solutions to compensate it with sideboarding strategies (removal/extra discard/DR).

[4eak]

LEDless is likely dead for the foreseeable future. From what I can tell, nobody has top 8'd a sizable (33+ person) tournament with LEDless in the past 4 months. Nobody seems to be playing it (or if they are playing it, they aren't doing well with it), and for good reason, LED Dredge is just plainly better (and I submit it is not simply because of the presence of Maverick).


LED dredge won't see more dredgers in hand neither after mulligans since LEDless don't run 11 dredgers (like some 14 lands LED versions).

I run 13 Dredgers in both LEDless and LED Dredge. I do not compromise on the chance to open with dredgers (alongside all the functions I seek) and the ability to effectively chain dredge.


Actually, LEDless is tuned towards increasing the chance of having the good "land draw dredger discard" hand.

LED can be tuned to have just as high (if not higher) a chance to open "mana source, discard outlet, dredger, draw." In fact, that is largely my goal in any mana'd version of the deck. We now have a critical mass of draw/discard spells, enough so that the best way to attain "mana source, discard outlet, dredge, draw" is by lowering the number of permanent discard outlets to play draw/discard spells (which pull double duty). LED Dredge is simply in a better position to take advantage of that critical mass of draw/discard spells. Further, LED Dredge can viably run more mana sources than LEDless in virtue of the fact that LED pulls double duty - and that also improves its consistency. I'm fine with 18 mana sources in my LED Dredge deck, but I would never go above 15 with LEDless.


Since we're staying that consistency is having this sort of opening hand, LEDless mustn't be less consistent than LED version, because the first has 16 lands, which are the only cards besides dredgers that will make you mulligan.

16 lands is outright too many, even for those who desperately want to make Faithless Looting more effective in LEDless.

Consistency is largely based upon your opening hands (which is all you've talked about here), but given how many draw spells we can run at this point, your opening hand is not the only thing which matters to consistency. Being able to reliably play back to back draw spells in the first two turns often means that you have to consider that your hand + the top 2-4 cards of your library bears upon your consistency.

Consider this opening hand:

LED, CoB, CC, Looting, Study, Bridge, Ichorid.

That hand is a keeper. It isn't great, but it is certainly keepable. The reason this is keepable is because I can use my draw spells to find a dredger and still likely have gas left over to explode. Consistency requires more than merely considering the odds of opening with "mana source, discard outlet, dredger, draw."

Regardlesss, at this point, I believe that number of hands which are keepable for LED Dredge is greater than the number of hands which are keepable for LEDless.



peace,
4eak

[Vandalize]

LEDless is likely dead for the foreseeable future. From what I can tell, nobody has top 8'd a sizable (33+ person) tournament with LEDless in the past 4 months. Nobody seems to be playing it (or if they are playing it, they aren't doing well with it), and for good reason, LED Dredge is just plainly better (and I submit it is not simply because of the presence of Maverick).



I run 13 Dredgers in both LEDless and LED Dredge. I do not compromise on the chance to open with dredgers (alongside all the functions I seek) and the ability to effectively chain dredge.



LED can be tuned to have just as high (if not higher) a chance to open "mana source, discard outlet, dredger, draw." In fact, that is largely my goal in any mana'd version of the deck. We now have a critical mass of draw/discard spells, enough so that the best way to attain "mana source, discard outlet, dredge, draw" is by lowering the number of permanent discard outlets to play draw/discard spells (which pull double duty). LED Dredge is simply in a better position to take advantage of that critical mass of draw/discard spells. Further, LED Dredge can viably run more mana sources than LEDless in virtue of the fact that LED pulls double duty - and that also improves its consistency. I'm fine with 18 mana sources in my LED Dredge deck, but I would never go above 15 with LEDless.



16 lands is outright too many, even for those who desperately want to make Faithless Looting more effective in LEDless.

Consistency is largely based upon your opening hands (which is all you've talked about here), but given how many draw spells we can run at this point, your opening hand is not the only thing which matters to consistency. Being able to reliably play back to back draw spells in the first two turns often means that you have to consider that your hand + the top 2-4 cards of your library bears upon your consistency.

Consider this opening hand:

LED, CoB, CC, Looting, Study, Bridge, Ichorid.

That hand is a keeper. It isn't great, but it is certainly keepable. The reason this is keepable is because I can use my draw spells to find a dredger and still likely have gas left over to explode. Consistency requires more than merely considering the odds of opening with "mana source, discard outlet, dredger, draw."

Regardlesss, at this point, I believe that number of hands which are keepable for LED Dredge is greater than the number of hands which are keepable for LEDless.



peace,
4eak

What's your latest list 4eak? I'm pretty trying to figure out how to play LED version with 14 lands and 13 Dredgers o_o

But yeah, LED > LEDless nowdays.

[4eak]

// Mana Sources - 18
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

// Dredgers - 13
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Darkblast

// Strictly Draw/Discard - 12
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study

// The Goods - 17
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Putrid Imp
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

I know many of you are attached to PImp. I think the card just isn't as good as the other options in the main. If I were to add PImps, I'd go: -2 DR, -1 DB, +3 PImp (which is fairly close to quadlazer). I think PImp is weaker than DR and the 13th Dredger in game 1 though.

With a critical mass of draw/discard effects and the double-duty mana sources (CC and LED), I find permanent discard outlets not worth using in game 1. Games 2 and 3, in most matchups, I didn't side in Tribes even when I had them, so I cut them.


peace,
4eak

[NecroYawgmoth]

I agree that PImp is somehow the worst card. I played with 1-2 PImp here and then, because I literally never felt that I really needed it, and I also board it out often, becaue you don't really need it to beat Crypt/Extraction but there is still the point that PImp is Ichorid-fodder.

Your list plays 8 feedable targets [besides Ichorid-canibalism], and sometimes you can't eat that Dredger. Have you encountered any problems where this "low" count on black creatures is relevant?

[Final Fortune]

@4reak

I've played more or less the same before with -1 Dark Blast, +1 Tarnished Citadel and -2 Dread Return, +2 Phantasmagorian awhile ago, do you actually feel like your Dread Returns are contributing to your wins or that your Dread Return targets are addressing your problems post-board?

I have no problem cutting Pimp(s) for dredgers and lands, but cutting Pimps for kill conditions is completely against the idea of adding consistency to the deck IMO.

As far as LEDless being "unviable," I think it's a weaker deck pre-board but a potentially stronger deck post-board if it can leverage the ~7 discard creatures vs conventional hate.

[Calado]

Breakthrough isn't a discard outlet that we can rely on our opener. And multiple draw spells without dredger are risky since the game starts at least one turn later if we don't draw a dredger.
They've calculated the chances of having the great openers on the main dredge variations, and the LEDless got 1% more than the LED version, so again it's wrong to say that it's less consistent.
Btw, I agree that the power gained from LED makes the LED version better, that's why people don't play the lesser version on tournaments.
I play LEDless only because I don't own LED, but it's not the version of the deck that is making me lose.

[Felidae]

After more than one month of abstinence I finally played the deck once again in my local tournament.

But not your ordinary LED / LEDless Dredge, but the allmost forgotten Manaless Dredge.

So lets start with the list ( aka: "fuck I neither own Shambling Shell nor fancy DR targets").

3 Dakmore Salvage

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bloodghast
4 Phatasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
4 Street Wraith
2 Sphinx of the lost Truth
1 Cephalid Sage
1 River Kelpie
1 Flame-kin Zealot

4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxin Probe

4 Bridge from Below

SB:
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Iona
1 Realm Razer
1 Terrastodon

And before you ask: yes, the list is as inconstistant as it can get, but then again it can also explode on turn 2, which is pretty funny I have to admit.

Round 1: BUg Langstill

G1: He starts with a 2nd turn Standstill, guess you know how this is going to end....

G2: He mulligans twice and leads with USea into Gravediggers Cage.

G3: Once again he mulligans, this time down to six, but to my relief he only opend with Snapcaster + Extractions, taking my Ichorids and Dread Returns. I simply grind him out, as he doesn't find another piece of hate in time.

Round 2: Combo Elves

G1: I have to mulligan once ( bad), he has the turn 2 kill via Cradle ( worse) and he still manages it to waste 20 minutes on the game, missing allmost every trigger and overall playing like a total douchebag (the worst).

G2: I got an Iona online on turn 2.

G3: I have to mulligan down to six ( timewalk 1) while he goes down to 5. The first thing I discard gets eaten by a Fearie ( timewalk 2) and so does the 2nd thing ( timewalk 3). Naturally I die on his 4th turn.

Round 3: ANT

G1: He starts with a couple of discard, but somehow only finds mana exelaration after that, giving me the chance to blow him out via multiple Therapies.

G2: He mulligans down to 4, doesn't find him Cage and I win on turn 4.

Round 4: Maverick

G1: He leads with a Hierach into a 2nd turn Zenith for Ooze, which isn't so impressiv as I got 3 Street Wraiths in my hand. Long story short: I kill him via a large amout of hasty zombies.

G2: He starts with a 2nd turn Thalia, followed by a 3rd turn Ooze and since my first dredger failed to find anything I scoop it up.

G3: On turn 0 I reveal 3 Chancellors, hoping to buy me some time, while slowly building my grave. His first spell ( Teeg) gets countert, but then he has an Extraction on my Ichorid and a Thalia, who doesn't look so impressiv anymore once you get Dakmore Salvage online.
I DR a Chancellor, making sure that he won't cast any GSZ in the near future for more than 1 and a couple of turns later he dies to the overwhelming force.


I end up on the 3rd place, due to my opp score.




Stuff I learned from playing the deck and pros/cons for Manaless in the current Meta:

- People will mulligan really really really hard when they figure out that they only need one card to beat you ( Leyline / Cage), so you better start practise your shuffle skills to prevent this from happening.

- You have way more trigger than in ordinary dredge, so better not screw them up,



pros:
- watching the fear in your opponents eyes when they see that you discard Phantasmagorian

- being able to ignore cards like Surgical Extraction

- being able to ignore any form of counter magic

- being able to kill on turn 2 ( hey quadlazer can't do this)

cons:
- Leyline + Cage. Seriously during my testing I had some games that lasted no longer than 10 minutes, due to those cards g2/3.
You could devote half of your board to beat them, but then again I don't really see the point in doing so ( turning an inconsistant piece of shit into a way way way more inconsistant piece of shit doesn't seem to be that great).

- did I mentioned it's inconsistant

- you can easily get timewalked

- sometimes you need the consistant speed that LED/LEDless provide to beat the faceroll decks

- seriously it's so God damn inconsistant...


Overall I had a great time playing the deck, but I wouldn't take it to a tournament again in the near future, unless they'd print a phyrexian Natures Claim.

[Michael Keller]

^ That's about the funniest damn thing I've read in a while.

[Fizzeler]

That was a nice read, so how inconsistent is it?

Is there anyway to beat cage or Leyline g2/3

[Mindlash]

That was a nice read, so how inconsistent is it?

Is there anyway to beat cage or Leyline g2/3

There were some ideas of Anti-Leyline Boards which consumed almost all if not all SB-Space. I tried it a bit an it was not very good. Of course I killed the Leyline which used up enough cards from my hand to timewalk me long enough to still die :)

Board was something like this:
4 Land Grant
4 Nature's Claim
4 Reverent Silence
3 Forest

I have seen a white version of it somewhere...but I don't remember anymore how it was build.

But in short: Cage/Leyline with Manaless are Game Over. Tormod's and Surgicals are ok. Once you start dredging your entire Graveyard consists of threats ^^

[4eak]

Your list plays 8 feedable targets [besides Ichorid-canibalism], and sometimes you can't eat that Dredger. Have you encountered any problems where this "low" count on black creatures is relevant?

I've not had problems with feeding Ichorid, but I end up using him differently than I would use him in something like LEDless Dredge. I use him to build tokens and administer the final blow. I don't use him for aggressive beats throughout the game.

The faster the dredge deck, the weaker Ichorid becomes. Essentially, when you are consistently flipping over a majority of your deck in a single turn, you really only need Ichorid for one (maybe two) turns in the majority of cases. In slower builds, Ichorid becomes far more important, as he is your essential grinding card. When you only flip 6 cards a turn, you need to get some action going early and be able to maintain that Ichorid action throughout the game, hence why a slower Dredge deck requires more Ichorids and also far more Ichorid fodder per Ichorid in the deck. LED Dredge, at this point, is stupidly fast. It is fast enough that going to 2 Ichorid is not insane, even if it is very likely suboptimal. It is fast enough that running 11 black creatures in total (including Ichorid) is sufficient.


I've played more or less the same before with -1 Dark Blast, +1 Tarnished Citadel and -2 Dread Return, +2 Phantasmagorian awhile ago, do you actually feel like your Dread Returns are contributing to your wins or that your Dread Return targets are addressing your problems post-board?

I have tried cutting DR before. I really wish I could use that space for other things. Unfortunately, I've found the card too necessary.

Dread return's literal effect is useful in a non-trivial number of games, both pre and post board. I can't count the number of times I needed a Dread return to win the game and nothing else would do. Sometimes it's the massive token generation, sometimes it's having a giant GGT (or very rarely a Stinkweed Imp), and sometimes it's both. I won't cut all of them. I think going down to 1 is possible, but not optimal. Dread return's indirect effect, primarily as a sac outlet which generates tokens, is actually the most important part of the spell. If Dread return didn't do anything, but still had its flashback, the card would still be worth running. That's how valuable DR as sac outlet, particularly a big sac outlet, is in my eyes. The fact that DR gives me a couple blowout post-board targets in a some matches is often gravy.


As far as LEDless being "unviable," I think it's a weaker deck pre-board but a potentially stronger deck post-board if it can leverage the ~7 discard creatures vs conventional hate.

LEDless is only unviable in a very weak sense, primarily in the sense that it is strictly worse or virtually dominated by another strategy (namely LED Dredge). I certainly believe LEDless can win many games (it isn't strongly unviable) - LEDless should regularly beat a significant portion of tier 1 and 2 decks. LEDless simply doesn't win as often as LED Dredge - that's the point I was going for.

To say that LEDless is a weaker deck pre-board is pretty much the same thing as saying that LED Dredge is strictly better. Those ~7 discard creatures are still available to LED Dredge post-board, it just means that there is slightly less sideboard space. That said, I'm not finding Tribes to be worth it. Even if I had a 25 card sideboard with Tribes in it, I just wouldn't board him in the vast majority of matchups.


Breakthrough isn't a discard outlet that we can rely on our opener. And multiple draw spells without dredger are risky since the game starts at least one turn later if we don't draw a dredger. They've calculated the chances of having the great openers on the main dredge variations, and the LEDless got 1% more than the LED version, so again it's wrong to say that it's less consistent. Btw, I agree that the power gained from LED makes the LED version better, that's why people don't play the lesser version on tournaments.

Breakthrough is certainly a reliable way to discard your hand. Going Land, Breakthrough on T1 is obviously not preferred because it is slow. I do, however, Breakthrough to discard my hand and slow dredge in non-trivial number of games, particularly after mulligans.

Please note, however, that while Breakthrough is not the preferred initial discard outlet, it makes for a wonderful secondary discard outlet. Breakthrough relieves you of any trapped cards (Bridges, DR, Ichorid, extra dredgers or black creatures) in hand. Dredge often needs more than just an initial discard outlet to get the ball rolling. Breakthrough serves admirably in these occasions.

Let us not forget that Breakthrough for X=1 is still a decent play in many circumstances, acting as a way to dump our hand and leaving us with a card to go off with in many cases.



peace,
4eak

[TerribleTim68]

Ok, so it seems we are back to debating the LEDless vs LED versions yet again. I still need some help understanding the concept of "slow dredging" and how/when to do it properly. Exaclt what is "slow dredging", how do you do it properly and what does it look like? So let's get back on a constructive path and help me learn how to not simply get rolled in games 2/3. :wink:

[joemauer]

Ok, so it seems we are back to debating the LEDless vs LED versions yet again. I still need some help understanding the concept of "slow dredging" and how/when to do it properly. Exaclt what is "slow dredging", how do you do it properly and what does it look like? So let's get back on a constructive path and help me learn how to not simply get rolled in games 2/3. :wink:

Get better at reading your opponent and understanding what their deck can and can not do.

[HokusSchmokus]

I don't really know what you have problems with. The only information I got so far is that you tend to get rolled after boarding. But by what? And how are you trying to fight it?
Anyways slow dredging is just that, you dredge slowly, that means with no or only minimal use of draw spells or effects. Usually you start by DDDing.It can be done if you simply don't have any discard outlet(you know what DDD means right?) or to fight things like counterspells,as your opponent can't do anything about you discarding down to 7 cards at the end of turn.Note that after you discarded,the turn has ended and your opponent cannot do anything at your eot anymore.
That means if they want to do something at eot, they have to do it when you announce you are going to discard.
The other main use of slow-dredging is to fight hate,particularly Crypt and Relic. You just dredge for the least amount possible or reasonable( I usually use Thugs for this) so you can force your opponent to crack relic/crypt because a) you hit ancient grudge or b) you have enough threats in your graveyard to deal respectable damage. That's why Ashen Ghoul has been very good against Crypt imo.

[Michael Keller]

I have actually been looking into playing LED-less Dredge for a while now. While LED provides a level of explosiveness with Faithless Looting - in addition to being used as a discard enabler in conjunction with other draw spells and dredgers - I still kind of like dropping Tireless Tribe on turn one. A lot of decks right now (resurgence of Tribal, Aggro and RUG) have a hard-ass time dealing with it which is a really nice bonus to have.

I still, however, think that cutting Putrid Imp is a mistake and would never do it.

[TerribleTim68]

I don't really know what you have problems with. The only information I got so far is that you tend to get rolled after boarding. But by what? And how are you trying to fight it?
Anyways slow dredging is just that, you dredge slowly, that means with no or only minimal use of draw spells or effects. Usually you start by DDDing.It can be done if you simply don't have any discard outlet(you know what DDD means right?) or to fight things like counterspells,as your opponent can't do anything about you discarding down to 7 cards at the end of turn.Note that after you discarded,the turn has ended and your opponent cannot do anything at your eot anymore.
That means if they want to do something at eot, they have to do it when you announce you are going to discard.
The other main use of slow-dredging is to fight hate,particularly Crypt and Relic. You just dredge for the least amount possible or reasonable( I usually use Thugs for this) so you can force your opponent to crack relic/crypt because a) you hit ancient grudge or b) you have enough threats in your graveyard to deal respectable damage. That's why Ashen Ghoul has been very good against Crypt imo.

Thanks HokusSchmokus, that's more along the lines of what I'm looking for. The problems I face are opposing hate, usually in the form of Crypt and Extraction, those are what I see the most. There is the occasional Faerie, but we'll view that as a lesser Extraction for this conversation.

What I've found in my case is that I wasn't sure what to dredge or how much to dredge when facing a Crypt. So I tend to "over-dredge" I guess you would say. I never really know if I should just draw a card or keep dredging. It always seemed like drawing a card isn't what the deck wants to do. So knowing when to just draw a card has been an issue for me. Hearing things like "You just dredge for the least amount possible or reasonable( I usually use Thugs for this) so you can force your opponent to crack relic/crypt because a) you hit ancient grudge or b) you have enough threats in your graveyard to deal respectable damage." is very helpful. Is there a time when you just simply draw a card rather than dredging? Or are you still dredging, just doing so with guys like the Thug?

As for the EoT discard step, it's rarely an issue on the timing side of it because when facing either Crypt or Extraction they can just do it any time, even on thier upkeep step after my turn has ended.

[Fizzeler]

I can see cutting PImp actually for Tireless in the current Aggro Meta, as Tireless does chump block almost everything until you get enough steam to kill them

[Vandalize]

Is there a time when you just simply draw a card rather than dredging? Or are you still dredging, just doing so with guys like the Thug?

Yes. Example 1:

You're facing a turn 1 Tormod's Crypt. And you've already been slowdredging for a while (lets say, about 15~20 cards over three turns). And you hit some important cards, like Ichorid and Bridge from Below. You have fodder for Ichorid, and you can build pressure with your graveyard as it is sized now.

In this case, you can draw for the turn, because if you overextend into other business cards, Crypt will have a more devastating effect. So it's pretty acceptable to draw (even better if your chances to draw a Draw-Spell is good).

Example 2:

You've facing a lethal board position or some very threatning position (lets say, Goblin Piledriver + dudes or Scavenging Ooze with few or none mana open). You can calculate how many Draw-Spells you have left in your library (count Cephalid Coliseum as one). If you have a good chance to draw it, go for it, because slowdredging won't help you.

If you draw something like Breakthrough, you can overextend a lot, and get out of trouble. If not, you'd just lose anyways.

@thread I have been shaving stuff, and this is my latest list:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return

4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid

SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Ashen Ghoul
SB: 1 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Dread Return
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Seems fine for now. But I'll miss the 12th Dredger anytime soon, I guess.

EDIT: forgot the LEDs

[DarkJester]

@Vandalize: don't shave too much, your list is missing 4 cards (obviously LED's)... ;)

[Calado]

I love the manaless idea of don't having dead cards on graveyard. It's like an exploit, but cage and Leyline destroyed this idea.
About dredging vs drawing, your opponent's deck shows when to not dredge, it's rare.
You want to show dredge when you can wait for therapy to avoid your draw spell being countered, or when a crypt/relic is on play (unless you have removal), while sculpting your hand to explode after its activation.
You'll have to draw and hardcast things when forced by Leyline or cage.
DDD can be used when a counter for the only discard outlet is more certain than an extraction, for example.

[Holly]

How do you tend to board versus a diversity of hate?
Since most people diverse their hate into something like:
2 Extraction,
1 Crypt,
1 Cage,

The Ashen Ghouls come in handy when fighting the Extractions/Crypt, but are useless vs the Cage, so let's assume Quadlaser list:
-4 LED
-1 Ichorid
+3 Ashen Ghouls
+2 Lands

and just hoping they dont draw their singleton Cage and scoop if they do? I don't want to lose versus a single Cage but boarding in 4 Nature' Claim for it seems too much.

A friend of mine plays Rock, preboard he got 1 Bog, Kotr to fetch them, GSZ for 1 Ooze, together with Explosives for zombies and swords for Ichorid, most of the times I'm still to fast for him, but postboard he also has 3 Extraction, 1 Cage, 1 Crypt, Crop Rotation & Thalia. How would you board? Without Breakthrough/LED I'm getting to slow for Kotr into Bog or Ooze, slowdreding doesn't cut it (and thanks to Thalia I'll never cast a draw spell later). Till now I just did not board at all, hoping for beeing fast enough and him not having the t1 Crypt/Cage, sometimes it does work, sometimes it doesnt..

[Anusien]

Boarding in 5 cards to fight 2 Extraction seems lopsided.

[Holly]

Well it was a example, since most of the time you don't know yet how much (and what) hate they have, but you can guess it.. So let's say they have 3 Extractions ;P.

The Question would you board anything versus the Cage? It's lethal if you don't have any way to get rid of it, in contrast to the 2(3) Extractions. Or would you just scoop up the time they're lucky and get it?

[Mindlash]

I love the manaless idea of don't having dead cards on graveyard. It's like an exploit, but cage and Leyline destroyed this idea.
About dredging vs drawing, your opponent's deck shows when to not dredge, it's rare.
You want to show dredge when you can wait for therapy to avoid your draw spell being countered, or when a crypt/relic is on play (unless you have removal), while sculpting your hand to explode after its activation.
You'll have to draw and hardcast things when forced by Leyline or cage.
DDD can be used when a counter for the only discard outlet is more certain than an extraction, for example.

I think Manaless greatest Problem is not Leyline/Cage. It's just to slow on average against certain decks.It eats decks with no relevant clock like Stoneblade and presumebly UW Miracle. Once your grave has Sphinx and DR you can flip your entire Deck. It's even easier with Griselbrand.

But I do not like beeing on the draw against Belcher, LED Dredge, ANT or other fast Decks and just DDD the next turn. Without Street Wraith in your hand you cannot even defend yourself against Lackey that is if you dredge into Narcomoeba.

The slowdredging thingy may look a bit unusal to some players. Most people I see seem like they want to flip their decks with LED as fast as they can...leaving them without handcards and with half their deck or more in the grave.

Perhaps its easier to learn with a LEDless version? It is just easier to slow dredge and get going again after crypt/relic without LED and with 8 permanent discard outleds. Everytime I have LED in my hand it whispers to me to use it and dredge half my deck away...hard to resist :D

[HokusSchmokus]

Well it was a example, since most of the time you don't know yet how much (and what) hate they have, but you can guess it.. So let's say they have 3 Extractions ;P.

The Question would you board anything versus the Cage? It's lethal if you don't have any way to get rid of it, in contrast to the 2(3) Extractions. Or would you just scoop up the time they're lucky and get it?

You don't have to board against 1 Extraction. In this case you gave I'd board in lands plus Nature's Claim probably.
@Tim It doesn't really matter much if you Dredge for 6 or less during slowdredging,it just depends on the situation. If you face a fast clock in addition to Crypt, it's often even better to dredge 6 a turn to force them to pop crypt earlier. You could do that with drawspells, too, it is just often better to keep them for after the crypt activation.

[woremak]

Well it was a example, since most of the time you don't know yet how much (and what) hate they have, but you can guess it.. So let's say they have 3 Extractions ;P.

The Question would you board anything versus the Cage? It's lethal if you don't have any way to get rid of it, in contrast to the 2(3) Extractions. Or would you just scoop up the time they're lucky and get it?

I know I'm very high on this card right now, but Ghoultree is super good out of the board against surgical + cage.

[Michael Keller]

X-0'd the local with Manaless Dredge tonight in my return to Syracuse. Wound up beating RUG, U/r/w Delver, and U/w Miracles - drawing into the last round.

I played with four Dryad Arbor main-deck, with a board capable of handling Leyline and such. Worked out pretty well. In an unprepared meta, Manaless can be a wrecking ball. In a prepared meta, it's a little bit harder.

With the format shifting to Tribal again, I'm wondering if it's really that good right now. Dryad Arbor was the tits and enabled Dread Returns on turn two far greater than anticipated.

[NecroYawgmoth]

I know I'm very high on this card right now, but Ghoultree is super good out of the board against surgical + cage.

...unless they play Swords / Path

Hollywood, I am quite interested in your list, because Manaless is still my favorite deck, just barely playable. =( On a sidenote, is 1-2 Ghoultree in Manaless possible with Dryad Arbor?

[Fizzeler]

X-0'd the local with Manaless Dredge tonight in my return to Syracuse. Wound up beating RUG, U/r/w Delver, and U/w Miracles - drawing into the last round.

I played with four Dryad Arbor main-deck, with a board capable of handling Leyline and such. Worked out pretty well. In an unprepared meta, Manaless can be a wrecking ball. In a prepared meta, it's a little bit harder.

With the format shifting to Tribal again, I'm wondering if it's really that good right now. Dryad Arbor was the tits and enabled Dread Returns on turn two far greater than anticipated.

Congrats! I kinda agree, but dredge in general in an unprepared meta (this happened at a tourney I went to) can just 2-0 everything

Arbor, it seems interesting, with land grant can be fetched, I can see this leading to some explosive turns tbh

[Que]

I'm faded right now. Here is a list I came up with..

4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x City of Brass
2x Tarnished Citadel

3x Ichorid
3x Putrid Imp
4x Narcomoeba
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgarig Grave Troll
4x Golgari Thug

4x Breakthrough
4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Bridge from Below

SB:
1x Undiscovered Paradise
3x Firestorm
3x Ashen Ghoul
4x Nature's Claim/Chain of Vapor
4x Leyline of the Void


EDIT: i'll explian better when I sober up. x]

who wants to try Dispel as tech against Surgical Extraction? It'd be funny

[Vandalize]

HOLY CRAP MOTHERFUCKING JESUS OMG DAMN.

MY DREAM CAME TRUE, IT REALLY DID. OMG, I'M SO EXCITED.

I was playing against this douchebag with Canadian Threshold in Cockatrice, and I've FINALLY made my dream-dredging (if that makes any sense):

My Golgari Grave-Troll flipped this:

Narcomoeba, Narcomoeba, Bridge from Below, Dread Return, Bridge from Below, Narcomoeba.

DUDE, HOW AWESOME CAN THAT BE? I THINK I'M GOING TO EXPLODE IN JOY. I'M GOING TO PLAY BELCHER AGAINST TEAM AMERICA, NOW THAT I FEEL LUCKY.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5k1Shl3tILc/TzDEDhlUSSI/AAAAAAAAOkw/AHFTgyZYd8c/s1600/rainbow_puke.jpg

[Vandalize]

who wants to try Dispel as tech against Surgical Extraction? It'd be funny

If you want to play for the lulz, counter Surgical Extraction with Nix. ROFL

[NecroYawgmoth]

If you guys want to "counter" Extraction with zero or one mana spells, please use Noxious Revival. It "counters" Extraction and can also recycle Moebas and screw up opponents Confidants. =P

@ Vandalize: I had some similar Dredge in my playtime, I opened with PImp against Maverick in G2 and Dredged my GGT into Moeba, Moeba, Bridge, Return, Therapy and Elesh Norn. :cool: *double-rainbow*

[Final Fortune]

I've not had problems with feeding Ichorid, but I end up using him differently than I would use him in something like LEDless Dredge. I use him to build tokens and administer the final blow. I don't use him for aggressive beats throughout the game.

The faster the dredge deck, the weaker Ichorid becomes. Essentially, when you are consistently flipping over a majority of your deck in a single turn, you really only need Ichorid for one (maybe two) turns in the majority of cases. In slower builds, Ichorid becomes far more important, as he is your essential grinding card. When you only flip 6 cards a turn, you need to get some action going early and be able to maintain that Ichorid action throughout the game, hence why a slower Dredge deck requires more Ichorids and also far more Ichorid fodder per Ichorid in the deck. LED Dredge, at this point, is stupidly fast. It is fast enough that going to 2 Ichorid is not insane, even if it is very likely suboptimal. It is fast enough that running 11 black creatures in total (including Ichorid) is sufficient.



I have tried cutting DR before. I really wish I could use that space for other things. Unfortunately, I've found the card too necessary.

Dread return's literal effect is useful in a non-trivial number of games, both pre and post board. I can't count the number of times I needed a Dread return to win the game and nothing else would do. Sometimes it's the massive token generation, sometimes it's having a giant GGT (or very rarely a Stinkweed Imp), and sometimes it's both. I won't cut all of them. I think going down to 1 is possible, but not optimal. Dread return's indirect effect, primarily as a sac outlet which generates tokens, is actually the most important part of the spell. If Dread return didn't do anything, but still had its flashback, the card would still be worth running. That's how valuable DR as sac outlet, particularly a big sac outlet, is in my eyes. The fact that DR gives me a couple blowout post-board targets in a some matches is often gravy.



LEDless is only unviable in a very weak sense, primarily in the sense that it is strictly worse or virtually dominated by another strategy (namely LED Dredge). I certainly believe LEDless can win many games (it isn't strongly unviable) - LEDless should regularly beat a significant portion of tier 1 and 2 decks. LEDless simply doesn't win as often as LED Dredge - that's the point I was going for.

To say that LEDless is a weaker deck pre-board is pretty much the same thing as saying that LED Dredge is strictly better. Those ~7 discard creatures are still available to LED Dredge post-board, it just means that there is slightly less sideboard space. That said, I'm not finding Tribes to be worth it. Even if I had a 25 card sideboard with Tribes in it, I just wouldn't board him in the vast majority of matchups.



Breakthrough is certainly a reliable way to discard your hand. Going Land, Breakthrough on T1 is obviously not preferred because it is slow. I do, however, Breakthrough to discard my hand and slow dredge in non-trivial number of games, particularly after mulligans.

Please note, however, that while Breakthrough is not the preferred initial discard outlet, it makes for a wonderful secondary discard outlet. Breakthrough relieves you of any trapped cards (Bridges, DR, Ichorid, extra dredgers or black creatures) in hand. Dredge often needs more than just an initial discard outlet to get the ball rolling. Breakthrough serves admirably in these occasions.

Let us not forget that Breakthrough for X=1 is still a decent play in many circumstances, acting as a way to dump our hand and leaving us with a card to go off with in many cases.



peace,
4eak

I think you're relying on Dread Return as a kill condition because you're forced to use your draw spells as discard outlets and just don't have enough gas and food to draw into your Ichorid(s) and support them. Honestly, if you're not playing 2xIchorid and either 3xDread Return and 1xFlayer of the Hatebournd or 2x Dread Return, 1xGriselbrand and 1xFlame Kin Zealot I don't think cutting Putrid Imp makes sense becuase you can't support Ichorid as a kill condition as opposed to a token generator and Golgari-Grave Troll isn't strong enough to end the game for you so Dread Return is a token generator as well and you're essentially "all in" on tokens and vulnerable to Mogg Fanatic.

There's something "wrong" with the list when you have to routinely use your draw step or Cabal Therapy yourself to position a dredger for a draw spell, let alone have to play with Dread Return in order to win game 1 at all.

I think playing Quad Lazer -1 Ichorid, -1 Putrid Imp for +2 Tarnished Citadel with 3 Ashen Ghoul and 1 Tarnished Citadel in the SB is about as consistent as I've gotten the list to "feel."

I think if you're trying to play the "Full Combo" list, one card you should look into is Hapless Researcher, because even tho' he is a watered down Careful Study he still costs U, bypasses Spell Pierce, triggers bridge tokens and increases the density of outlets and draw spells in the deck.

[Izor]

I have actually been looking into playing LED-less Dredge for a while now. While LED provides a level of explosiveness with Faithless Looting - in addition to being used as a discard enabler in conjunction with other draw spells and dredgers - I still kind of like dropping Tireless Tribe on turn one. A lot of decks right now (resurgence of Tribal, Aggro and RUG) have a hard-ass time dealing with it which is a really nice bonus to have.

I still, however, think that cutting Putrid Imp is a mistake and would never do it.

You're right, this is only one advantage of LEDless that many people forget. Being plain faster isn't necessarily better than being slower in some game 1's. Sounds strange, but especially against aggro strategies it's mostly better to drop Tribe on turn 1 and go off turn three than having no creaturs in play turn one and going off turn two.

I've lost my turn two kills with LED Dredge against that turn 1 Lackey on the play. No way this happens if the LED was a Tribe. He Lackey'ed in a SCG on turn two and removed 3 Bridges with 3 Moeba triggers on the stack.

I think I'm going to play LEDless next time there's a local tourney. It's probably a personal thing, but playing with Tribes feels just more smooth to me than LEDs. I'm not questioning that LED is probably the more powerful option in the current meta, though.

[Gui]

Just because one might board out LED's doesn't mean it isn't strictly the best card for game 1. Game 1, LED Dredge is king by a ridiculous margin. I've lost far more game 1's with LEDless than LED Dredge. Games 2 and 3, that's LEDless's only chance to catchup to LED Dredge. It doesn't though.

Boarding does matter, but not the way you've implied. LEDless has one major strength going for it in games 2 and 3; LEDless is generally thought to be pre-boarded, and thus may have more sideboard space than a comparable LED Dredge deck. I've not found the difference in sideboard space to really increase the odds of winning so much so that I would sacrifice the amazing game 1's that I get with LED Dredge.

I believe you got to the point here. The main difference from both lists is indeed be the increased space in LEDless sideboard, letting you enable for better fights against hate g2/g3, while LED is faster in g1.

As you said, maybe the sideboard isn't enough to catch-up with the advantage of being awesome on g1. While this may be true, I believe there's a lot to test before setting this on stone. First of all, Dredge sideboard seems to be one of its most complex issues to be addressed, with high variations from list to list. Inability to side correctly is a historical issue for Dredge, and in my view, this is the main problem, pushing LED to be better in this scenario where we don't really know what works in g2/g3.

Second, as you said yourself, there are different ways to build both decks. While I agree with you and play 14 lands in LED, I would play at least 15 in LEDless, and try to hit for the highest chance of combo in turn 2.LEDless can get close to LED in chances of combo until turn two, depending on how you build.

Thing is that LED players usually sacrifice more superfluous cards in favor of chance to combo, as in cutting all DRs or cutting Ichorids and PImps, while LEDless with 2 DR, a target, and less lands would drop the chances by a good chunk.

[chags]

I'm faded right now. Here is a list I came up with..

4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x City of Brass
2x Tarnished Citadel

3x Ichorid
3x Putrid Imp
4x Narcomoeba
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgarig Grave Troll
4x Golgari Thug

4x Breakthrough
4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Bridge from Below

SB:
1x Undiscovered Paradise
3x Firestorm
3x Ashen Ghoul
4x Nature's Claim/Chain of Vapor
4x Leyline of the Void


EDIT: i'll explian better when I sober up. x]

who wants to try Dispel as tech against Surgical Extraction? It'd be funny


I really like the look of this list/sb. I think shaving 1 ichorid and 1 imp for two lands main is fine and I'm a big fan of firestorm. I'll test it out.

In response to the thread in general it seems to me that most people side out led in multiple matches. When we cut DR the reasoning was it always gets sided out and only helps a lot game one when you should already be winning. Whether led or ledless game one should be a win, so if that is the case and if led is often coming out then maybe it is time to evaluate led more closely.

[Zodiark]

In response to the thread in general it seems to me that most people side out led in multiple matches. When we cut DR the reasoning was it always gets sided out and only helps a lot game one when you should already be winning. Whether led or ledless game one should be a win, so if that is the case and if led is often coming out then maybe it is time to evaluate led more closely.

How would you play against combo if you lack the speed of LED?

[Calado]

How would you play against combo if you lack the speed of LED?
Storm: Leyline of sanctity? Iona?
Show and Troll: No idea if they get counter + turn 2 Emrakul... Maybe peacekeeper or sudden spoiling? Chain of vapor?
Painter/MUD: Nature's Claim?
Maybe FKZ can be useful too.

[Gui]

Show and Troll: No idea if they get counter + turn 2 Emrakul...
You can try Innocent Blood.

[chags]

How would you play against combo if you lack the speed of LED?

The same way we did before looting was spoiled and everyone was on ledless? Cabal therapy is pretty good against combo, especially storm. Unmask is always an sb option as well. Using DR with sun Titan or grizzly Adams and fkz works too if you desperately need to race.

With led builds are you mulling into led everytime you see combo? I sure don't. Just be smart with therapy and keep good hands.

[TerribleTim68]

. . .With led builds are you mulling into led everytime you see combo? I sure don't. Just be smart with therapy and keep good hands.

Yea I don't ever look to LED as the "gotta have it" card. I'd never mull to it regardless. I mull to "Do I have a Dredger, a way to put him in the yard quickly and a way to start dredging all on this turn?" Isn't that the goal? I don't care what cards get me there, just get me there! I will say, if I have something like LED, a Troll and a Looting, I'm keeping that. But I look for more of a "package", not an LED alone.

[Final Fortune]

The same way we did before looting was spoiled and everyone was on ledless? Cabal therapy is pretty good against combo, especially storm. Unmask is always an sb option as well. Using DR with sun Titan or grizzly Adams and fkz works too if you desperately need to race.

With led builds are you mulling into led everytime you see combo? I sure don't. Just be smart with therapy and keep good hands.

No, LED and Dread Returns are not comparable, LED is instrumental in giving Dredge a chance to win vs Storm, and to a lesser extent Reanimator, while Dread Returns doesn't contribute in any meaningful way against any particular match up.

LEDless Dredge loses vs Storm and Reanimator, arguing otherwise is nothing short of being ignorant. Furthermore LED isn't boarded out every game against every deck, you'll see LED boarded out game 2 and boarded back in game 3 because the opponent doesn't have the ability to play a pro-active Tormod's Crypt on the draw.

I don't mind LEDless in a light combo, heavy aggro-control metagame myself, but you don't just cut LED using the same argument we used to cut Dread Return because they are two completely seperate issues.

[Calado]

...while Dread Returns doesn't contribute in any meaningful way against any particular match up.

I don't understand. LED dredge can win Storm only on turn 2 at earliest. LEDless dredge can DR Iona, FKZ or Hypnotist turn 2, and they're all insta win against them.
What am I missing?

[joemauer]

Cabal Therapy is what usually beats most Storm decks. The more Cabal Therapies you get in your graveyard by turn one or two the more likely you are to win against any given storm deck.

[Izor]

LEDless Dredge loses vs Storm and Reanimator, arguing otherwise is nothing short of being ignorant.

In one Legacy tournament I played I beat Reanimator in the second to last round and TES in the last round to make 1st place. I played a usual pre-Lootings LEDless list and, among other things, won against a potential turn two Elesh Norn and a potential Turn three Elesh Norn plus turn 2 Surgical Extraction.

LED Dredge is only faster than LEDless if it draws LED, which you have a 40% chance of. If you say that LEDless just loses to those two decks, so does LED. The chance that this one card wins you the game where Tribes wouldn't in those matchups is very very small. You sound like 4 cards could change your matchup from 20% to 50%. In fact, it probably changes it from 35% to 40%, maybe 45%. And the interesting question is if those 5-10% are worth 4 sideboard slots.

[chags]

Cabal Therapy is what usually beats most Storm decks. The more Cabal Therapies you get in your graveyard by turn one or two the more likely you are to win against any given storm deck.

My point exactly, thank you Joe. I'm not saying DR and LED are directly comparable, nor did I say LED gets boarded every match, just lots of them. My only comparison between LED and DR is that both in some situations help us win faster but neither is necessary for winning games. When I played LEDless I would dread return hypnotist or iona and it was GG against storm. The goal of the storm match for me is always as Joe stated to see as many therapies as possible. Saying that LEDless straight loses to storm is absolutely ridiculous, both decks can "go off" as soon as T2, Ledless dredge can actually disrupt storm while still focusing on it's plan A.



LED Dredge is only faster than LEDless if it draws LED, which you have a 40% chance of. If you say that LEDless just loses to those two decks, so does LED. The chance that this one card wins you the game where Tribes wouldn't in those matchups is very very small. You sound like 4 cards could change your matchup from 20% to 50%. In fact, it probably changes it from 35% to 40%, maybe 45%. And the interesting question is if those 5-10% are worth 4 sideboard slots.

Have to agree here, saying 4 cards completely changes your percentages is just ridiculous. To be clear I'm not necessarily saying LED should come out of the deck, however I do think it could be the right call. The sideboard slots that open up as well as the defense you get from tribe could be very well worth it.

[Izor]

Just to add a few things.

A lot of negative things can be said about Dread Return and I am against maindecked Dr packeges myself, but saying that specific DR targets don't do anything is plain wrong, sorry. The storm player can hide his LED and Infernal Tutor with a Brainstorm and kill you next turn, no matter how many Therapies you throw at him. If you drop Iona on black, the game is over. You're never going to beat the Lands deck with Zombies and Therapies if it has its lock pieces active, but Iona stops most of the lock cold and Terastodon and friends just blow everything up. Ask Gerry Thompson how much a Therapy or two did in his match against Kaitlin Lindburgs Hypergenesis deck, but had he found the Blazing Archon early enough, he would have won the match.

To cut the matter short, DR targets are definitely useful, but depending on the decks you're going to face you might consider other cards more important and you might thus not have enough room for them. That does not mean by any means that DR is completely useless and that it's wrong to play it.

As to how often LED is boarded out, I think everyone does that differently and there is probably no right way to do it. If you play quadlaser, you should probably leave it in most of the time, because you need some amount of discard and your 75 don't feature anything better than LED anyway. If you play say a few Tireless Tribes in the board, you should board LEDs out for them much more often. The permanent discard dorks are better than LED against all kinds of graveyard hate out there, which is one thing to consider. LED can outrace hate from now and then, though (especially Ooze), which is another thing to consider (although it really never happens when it counts).

[joemauer]

Just to add a few things.

A lot of negative things can be said about Dread Return and I am against maindecked Dr packeges myself, but saying that specific DR targets don't do anything is plain wrong, sorry. The storm player can hide his LED and Infernal Tutor with a Brainstorm and kill you next turn, no matter how many Therapies you throw at him. If you drop Iona on black, the game is over.

Iona can be bounced.
Proper discard is crippling to all combo decks.

Dread Return is fine as another angle of attack against a Storm player if you are already using it, but Cabal Therapies are the most reliant and effective way to beat a storm deck.

[Zodiark]

LED Dredge gives you consistency, can give you more Therapys thanks to that same consistency and although it doesn't give you DR targets (in case you don't play it), you can run all that Chain of Vapor, Nature Claim and so on, in your SB...

Not to mention how useless DR can be in certain matches if you played enough games with both decks to understand that!

All I wrote here is not new as you can see if you read a bit more closely this thread.

I didn't quote anyone and I don't think it's necessary, but I agree that I won't mull to infinity if I don't find a LED in the opening :)

[Final Fortune]

My point exactly, thank you Joe. I'm not saying DR and LED are directly comparable, nor did I say LED gets boarded every match, just lots of them. My only comparison between LED and DR is that both in some situations help us win faster but neither is necessary for winning games. When I played LEDless I would dread return hypnotist or iona and it was GG against storm. The goal of the storm match for me is always as Joe stated to see as many therapies as possible. Saying that LEDless straight loses to storm is absolutely ridiculous, both decks can "go off" as soon as T2, Ledless dredge can actually disrupt storm while still focusing on it's plan A.



Have to agree here, saying 4 cards completely changes your percentages is just ridiculous. To be clear I'm not necessarily saying LED should come out of the deck, however I do think it could be the right call. The sideboard slots that open up as well as the defense you get from tribe could be very well worth it.

Saying 4 cards completely changes your percentages is not ridiculous, ask every aggro-control palyer to remove their Force of Wills vs Storm and see what happens to their win rate ... It's not a question of drawing LED 40% of the time in your opening hand, it's a question of drawing LED 40% of the time in your opening hand, mulliganing into LED in your opening hand or drawing into LED.

Dread Return does not win the game quicker, it ends the game quicker, there's a find distinction between cards that generate tempo, card advantage and board position and cards that capatalize off of those factors in order to kill your opponent.

Ofcourse resolving a Dread Return on a target can have a game altering affect, the problem tho' is that unless you're playing against Storm specifically, you're trying to resolve a Dread Return on a target thru' hate when you should be concentrating on grinding thru' your opponent's hate instead. If you're allowed to Dredge freely, it doesn't matter what you kill your opponent with because you were allowed to Dredge freely. This is why you see so many bad players with bad lists win with Dredge, because if the deck isn't hated it automatically wins. It's the players who start every game facing a Surgical Extraction or Tormod's Crypt that are the good Dredge players, because they focus on the problems the opponent gives them and not waste their time durdling with win more kill conditions.

[Tombstalker]

Greetings dredge players. Its been awhile since I sleeved up dredge but now ive rebuilt my deck to help a brother get into legacy with something that can win against a variety. It is a LEDless version because I only own 4 LEDs which are in another deck. Besides ive been goldfishing this version and I like the way it rolls without the LEDS although I do miss the potential broken starts. Anyway I wanted to post my list for your judgement before I hand the deck over. I am somewhat limited in what cards I can "donate" so consider this when evaluating please. Here it is:


4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
4 cephalid Colliseum
2 undiscovered paradise (no citadels atm)

4 golgari grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp
4 putrid imp
4 narcomoeba
4 ichorid
3 golgari thug
1 flayer of the hatebound

4 bridge from Below

4 faithless looting
4 careful study
4 breakthrough
4 cabal therapy
2 dread Return

Sideboard (considering these 16 what should go or change?)
3 natures claim
2 chain of vapor
1 ancient grudge
2 ashen ghoul
2 tireless tribe
2 memory’s journey
2 firestorm (something better?)
1 iona and/or elesh norn

Honorable mention:
4 leyline of the void
1-2 darkblast


So anyway there it is. Other than the double paradise' being awkward here and there is there any blatant issues? I played dredge years ago before LED was innovated and I forgot how strong 4 ichorids can be, so im pleased with that. Also 24 creatures makes big trolls for flayer. I chose flayer main because I felt it has the most utility with alternate win ability, killing oozes and so on. The deck will likely face maverick, storm, goblins, reanimator, elves, other dredge, sneak and show, MUD, tempo, burn, probably more. Thoughts?

[chags]

LED Dredge gives you consistency, can give you more Therapys thanks to that same consistency and although it doesn't give you DR targets (in case you don't play it), you can run all that Chain of Vapor, Nature Claim and so on, in your SB...

Not to mention how useless DR can be in certain matches if you played enough games with both decks to understand that!

All I wrote here is not new as you can see if you read a bit more closely this thread.

I didn't quote anyone and I don't think it's necessary, but I agree that I won't mull to infinity if I don't find a LED in the opening :)

You guys are all getting far too hung up on the fact that I mentioned DR. I never once said DR should be in the deck again, I don't play with DR and I'm happy with that decision just like most of you. What I DID say was that I think Tireless Tribe may deserve maindeck slots in place of using LED. LED itself does not actually add to consistency, the deck is consistent because it is redundant, something it can still achieve in an LEDless build. I've played dredge for the past four years, I know very well how inconsistent DR is and how much more consistent Quadlazer is. Also since we are talking about the combo match up I'm not really sure why it is relevant to discuss using claim/chain of vapor or how that is relevant to the conversation of LED in general...



Saying 4 cards completely changes your percentages is not ridiculous, ask every aggro-control palyer to remove their Force of Wills vs Storm and see what happens to their win rate ... It's not a question of drawing LED 40% of the time in your opening hand, it's a question of drawing LED 40% of the time in your opening hand, mulliganing into LED in your opening hand or drawing into LED.

Dread Return does not win the game quicker, it ends the game quicker, there's a find distinction between cards that generate tempo, card advantage and board position and cards that capatalize off of those factors in order to kill your opponent.

Ofcourse resolving a Dread Return on a target can have a game altering affect, the problem tho' is that unless you're playing against Storm specifically, you're trying to resolve a Dread Return on a target thru' hate when you should be concentrating on grinding thru' your opponent's hate instead. If you're allowed to Dredge freely, it doesn't matter what you kill your opponent with because you were allowed to Dredge freely. This is why you see so many bad players with bad lists win with Dredge, because if the deck isn't hated it automatically wins. It's the players who start every game facing a Surgical Extraction or Tormod's Crypt that are the good Dredge players, because they focus on the problems the opponent gives them and not waste their time durdling with win more kill conditions.

Comparing any other deck to dredge is moot, Force of Will changes the match up for aggro control because they also pack cards like brainstorm and actually use their draw step to draw said cards. After turn 1 you barely ever should be drawing cards so when LED is not in your opener or the hand you mulled into then it really did nothing to help you where as aggro control decks can keep hands without force and know that they can still brainstorm/ponder into them. So yes basically it IS a question of having LED in your opener (be it naturally drawn or mulled into) because if you are playing against storm and drawing cards each turn to find that LED they are just going to kill you.

I agree that LED sets you up and DR ends games, yes those are two very different things, once again I did not compare DR to LED beyond the fact that they both got boarded out a lot and aren't actually necessary to winning games. Seriously that is as far as my comparison went. LED and DR have completely different functions, most people have recognized that the functions of DR are largely unneccessary. Despite the fact that LED has a COMPLETELY different set of functions it is also unneccessary and in the right meta could very possibly be cut. That was my ONLY comparison. Any comparing of the two you do beyond that is yours not mine.

Obviously dredge has to fight against the hate being brought in. That is what we all train to do for games two and three. That being said I have met very few storm players who board much against dredge, they are generally faster then us and they know it so usually they just concentrate on going off before we do. Storm is one of the only match ups (beyond maverick) where we don't really have to worry about hate and all we have to focus on is going off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To repost since the waters have been so muddled by nonsense about DR, is it possible that LEDless could make a comeback in a meta largely defined by rug, maverick, goblins, uw control, and merfolk with very little combo? I don't know what everyone's meta looks like but the American meta as a whole (as looked at by SCG Top 8s and GP Atlanta primarily) is largely dominated by aggro-control strategies with little combo showing up at the top tables. Since LED is primarily good against combo (and maverick) whereas Tireless Tribe and more lands would do better against RUG, Merfolk, Goblins, and Stoneblade it seems like cutting LED could be a realistic option. I don't know whether or not now is the right time, hence attempting to start a discussion on it. If we could avoid talk of DR for this specific conversation and compare lists running Tribe to lists with LED perhaps we could actually get some constructive conversation.

EDIT: I'll post what I'm thinking of running for an LEDless build when I get home from work today.

[joemauer]

LED dredge with Faithless Looting feels as consistent(not as fast or powerful) as Vintage dredge. I can expect to have 15++ cards in my graveyard almost all of my game ones by turn two if I go uninterrupted.

LEDless dredge is a budget version of dredge now.

[namrufmot]

Hey Dredge Dudes...Im preparing for a tourny and expect there to be a fair amout of Dredge. I'm a little inexperienced when playing it so I'm not sure what I should Sb against it. Here are my options:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Relics of Protgenus

Which of those are the most effective against you?

[joemauer]

Hey Dredge Dudes...Im preparing for a tourny and expect there to be a fair amout of Dredge. I'm a little inexperienced when playing it so I'm not sure what I should Sb against it. Here are my options:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Relics of Protgenus

Which of those are the most effective against you?

It depends on your deck really.
Chalice of the Void is the least useful though.

[namrufmot]

Do the majority of Dredge decks have a way of dealing with Leyline once its in play? or is it typically game if it sticks?

Faeries are instant and uncounterable, but only exile two cards. If I pick the correct two cards (assuming its turn 1 or 2) will that pretty much cripple your ability to go off?

[igri_is_a_bk]

Leyline or Macabre.
Leyline = free, uncounterable, and protects your Bridges
Macabre = free, uncounterable, and feeds Ichorid

I think Leyline is better because Bridge is more useful without Ichorids, than Ichorids are without Bridges.

[Vandalize]

Leyline or Macabre.
Leyline = free, uncounterable, and protects your Bridges
Macabre = free, uncounterable, and feeds Ichorid

I think Leyline is better because Bridge is more useful without Ichorids, than Ichorids are without Bridges.

He's actually trying to hate on dredge. Not play this card on Dredge's sideboard.

[Fizzeler]

Do the majority of Dredge decks have a way of dealing with Leyline once its in play? or is it typically game if it sticks?

Faeries are instant and uncounterable, but only exile two cards. If I pick the correct two cards (assuming its turn 1 or 2) will that pretty much cripple your ability to go off?

It depends on the deck you are playing, running Leyline and hoping to draw it in your opener, having no mana to actually hardcast it makes it bad, granted if it resolves the Dredge player has to remove it

Faerie Macabre can easily just do nothing against Dredge as well, but you can hit a few key cards to slow them down

Crypt and Relic are both easy to play around and Chalice only slows Dredge down it does not cripple them

What do you expect the Dredge players to Sideboard to combat your hate?

I am assuming you are playing Maverick or Junk by the Faerie Macabre suggestion over Surgical Extraction?

[Final Fortune]

You guys are all getting far too hung up on the fact that I mentioned DR. I never once said DR should be in the deck again, I don't play with DR and I'm happy with that decision just like most of you. What I DID say was that I think Tireless Tribe may deserve maindeck slots in place of using LED. LED itself does not actually add to consistency, the deck is consistent because it is redundant, something it can still achieve in an LEDless build. I've played dredge for the past four years, I know very well how inconsistent DR is and how much more consistent Quadlazer is. Also since we are talking about the combo match up I'm not really sure why it is relevant to discuss using claim/chain of vapor or how that is relevant to the conversation of LED in general...




Comparing any other deck to dredge is moot, Force of Will changes the match up for aggro control because they also pack cards like brainstorm and actually use their draw step to draw said cards. After turn 1 you barely ever should be drawing cards so when LED is not in your opener or the hand you mulled into then it really did nothing to help you where as aggro control decks can keep hands without force and know that they can still brainstorm/ponder into them. So yes basically it IS a question of having LED in your opener (be it naturally drawn or mulled into) because if you are playing against storm and drawing cards each turn to find that LED they are just going to kill you.

I agree that LED sets you up and DR ends games, yes those are two very different things, once again I did not compare DR to LED beyond the fact that they both got boarded out a lot and aren't actually necessary to winning games. Seriously that is as far as my comparison went. LED and DR have completely different functions, most people have recognized that the functions of DR are largely unneccessary. Despite the fact that LED has a COMPLETELY different set of functions it is also unneccessary and in the right meta could very possibly be cut. That was my ONLY comparison. Any comparing of the two you do beyond that is yours not mine.

Obviously dredge has to fight against the hate being brought in. That is what we all train to do for games two and three. That being said I have met very few storm players who board much against dredge, they are generally faster then us and they know it so usually they just concentrate on going off before we do. Storm is one of the only match ups (beyond maverick) where we don't really have to worry about hate and all we have to focus on is going off.
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To repost since the waters have been so muddled by nonsense about DR, is it possible that LEDless could make a comeback in a meta largely defined by rug, maverick, goblins, uw control, and merfolk with very little combo? I don't know what everyone's meta looks like but the American meta as a whole (as looked at by SCG Top 8s and GP Atlanta primarily) is largely dominated by aggro-control strategies with little combo showing up at the top tables. Since LED is primarily good against combo (and maverick) whereas Tireless Tribe and more lands would do better against RUG, Merfolk, Goblins, and Stoneblade it seems like cutting LED could be a realistic option. I don't know whether or not now is the right time, hence attempting to start a discussion on it. If we could avoid talk of DR for this specific conversation and compare lists running Tribe to lists with LED perhaps we could actually get some constructive conversation.

EDIT: I'll post what I'm thinking of running for an LEDless build when I get home from work today.

There's no difference between Force of Will in the aggro-control match up and Lion's Eye Diamond in the Dredge match up vs Storm, both decks have to either aggressively mulligan into the card on the draw or on the play respectively, and I don't see the difference between aggro-control Brainstorming and Pondering for Force of Will and Dredge Careful Studying and Faithless Looting for Lion's Eye Diamond at all, you're seriously underestimating Dredge's ability to cantrip IMO.

You don't just cut Lion's Eye Diamond for Tireless Tribe, I don't know if you've noticed yet in your 4 years of playing Dredge but Lion's Eye Diamond isn't just an outlet, it's a mana source for 8 of your draw spells. Any Dredge deck that cuts Lion's Eye Diamond is basically consigning itself to +3 Tarnished Citadel before anything else. You can't play Tireless Tribe unless you cut another 2 cards at a minimum and they're going to be an Ichorid and a Golgari Thug pretty much every time.

I don't know where you guys get this idea that LEDless has more SB space than LED, yes you always SB out LED but you always SB in Ashen Ghoul regardless of whether or not you play LEDless or LED anyway. The only difference between my LEDless SB and my LED SB is a whopping 1 space for an extra Tarnished Citadel.

I'm sure LEDless is playable in a heavy aggro-control environment where the ability to race before turn 3 isn't particularly relevant, I play a LEDless list pretty much anytime I loan my TES list to a friend and manage to do ok with it personally.

[namrufmot]

It depends on the deck you are playing, running Leyline and hoping to draw it in your opener, having no mana to actually hardcast it makes it bad, granted if it resolves the Dredge player has to remove it

Faerie Macabre can easily just do nothing against Dredge as well, but you can hit a few key cards to slow them down

Crypt and Relic are both easy to play around and Chalice only slows Dredge down it does not cripple them

What do you expect the Dredge players to Sideboard to combat your hate?

I am assuming you are playing Maverick or Junk by the Faerie Macabre suggestion over Surgical Extraction?

Sorry I forgot to mention that I am playing Gobbos...I'm torn between a package of Leylines, Relics, Cages, or Faeries...I have 6 empty SB slots. Just wondering what YOU guys would hate to see...

[Holly]

Hello folk,

made a rather dissappointing 3-3 today in a 52 people tournament.
Played some list..Quadlaser - 2 PImps, - 1 Thug
+2 Darkblast, +1 DR (to safe the one sideboard slot), put the Darkblast in there because I saw some amount of Peacekeeper the last few times, but again..not even played versus one. I never dredged them, never played them.. can't say much to them I guess..

M1 vs Death n Taxes
G1 Win
G2 Wasteland, Jitte make my (un)life hard, I get him to 1 before I die =(
G3 Mull to 4, Land, Darkblast (!), Imp and I dont know what else.. thought I could keep it, if he casts a Mother as usual I could kill it and dredge..
Well his first creature was a t2 Thalia, followed by two Ports and I die before I can cast anything, a few "timewalks" while getting 8 cards in hand are to much and I die.
0-1

M2 vs Stiflenought
G1 He has a t1 Delver, t2 Dreadnought but scoops to my 16/16 Troll + 10 Zombies.
G2 Mull to 6, got a Land, Dredger, 2 Draw Spells, keep.. he plays Cage, t2 Dreadnought brings me down before I can destroy his cage.
G3 I start and win.
1-1

M3 vs I felt bad for playing this game.
He had a Portal starter Deck..
2-1

M4 vs Dredge
G1 He starts, has the nuts and kills me t2.
G2 He mulls agressive to Leyline but keeps a lose 5card hand without it, my t2 Elesh let him scoop.
G3 Again he mulls to Leyline, has a 5 card hand with it, I kept my 7 with Dredgers, 2 Lands & draw spells, find a Nature's Claim when he had 5 Lands in play (his start hand wasnt really good^^) and won (with 2 cards left in my library but 15 Zombies, 3 Ichorids and a 12/12 Troll).
3-1

M5 vs Lands
G1 he starts and after t3 he got the Exploration,Crucible,Wasteland,Bog - Lock. (& Karakas)
G2 I mull to 4 before I find a land and lose.
Still made a huge mistake here.. played a land withouth anything that I could cast (probably because I was a little frustrated..still stupid) since he wasted it t1 (again). Otherwhise I could have cast an PImp T3 which I drew, don't think I could have won it because he was actually pretty fast (fast lands deck.. well..with the lock..still..)
3-2

M6 Vs Sneak & Show
G1 He starts with Island, Ponder, Lotus Petal
Last time I played vs him he was on Reanimator, I had a Therapy in hand and wanted to cast it on my first turn for Entomb/Reanimate, but since he played the Petal I randomly said Show n Tell and did hit it. (Otherwise he had t2 Grisel/Emrakul (both in hand). Win on t3.
G2 T2 Emrakul + Cage with Force backup when I tried to destroy it.
G3 Got no Therapy, he starts with 2 Cages + Force.. yeah..

Well... the Dark Blasts were of no use.. I really thought I'd play versus some Peacekeepers (in Enchantress & Miracel.Deck but again I managed to dodge them..)
The Dread Return Package (1 Main, 1 Sideboard + Elesh & Iona Sideboard) were of no really use either.. well I guess g2 in the mirror Elesh did help, but I probably I would have won without her aswell..
Really dissappointing.. M3 was actually a bye =/ (don't know how he managed to win a match (since he was 1-1 when he played against me)).


Btw. there were 9 (!) Burn players.. (a group of friends who thought it would be fun if everyone brings burn..).

[Final Fortune]

Sorry I forgot to mention that I am playing Gobbos...I'm torn between a package of Leylines, Relics, Cages, or Faeries...I have 6 empty SB slots. Just wondering what YOU guys would hate to see...

Honestly, if you don't have to worry about Reanimator then Leyline of the Void is the card that I hate to see because I have to more or less scoop game 2 and over board game 3. If you have to worry about Reanimator, I think you want to play a combination of Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt post-board to differentiate your hate vs Cabal Therapy and to be able to prevent the opponent from blowing you out game 3 with Lion's Eye Diamond when you're on the draw and can't play Tormod's Crypt pre-emptively.

Faerie Macabre is only a card you'll use if you expect Reanimator IMO.

[feline]

I had a game 2 that I saw no leyline of the void's from my opponent, just surgical extractions, so game 3 i didn't run any enchant destruction and at the start of game 3 he starts & has 1 in hand, putting it in play, so dumb! lol

[Fizzeler]

So taking my Dredge build to an unknown meta local legacy tournament tomorrow, my board and deck are fleshed out as I like it

Only thought was cutting 2 PImps for a 3rd Dread Return and Flayer, I don't think it is a good call as my deck is explosive enough to win by turn 2-4 and I should not need the flayer

Also, anyone have any luck with Ghoultree, I have a playset not sure if they help the deck or not?