[Discussion] Maverick phenomenon

[Gui]

GW Maverick has been around for a long time now. It's inception to the format probably comes from long ago, but more recently the commotion around it has came when Survival of the Fittest gave it Vengevine combo, making it really strong.

Then, Survival was banned, and the archetype continued trying to be delevelop, until Green Sun Zenith came and settled the deal, bringing it back to the Tier 1 decks. Although it has took some time until people admit how strong it was, it kept posting strong results.

But how strong were these results? Am I talking about it just because Maverick made a 6 out of 8 at SCG top8?

Not really. I've been looking on TC Decks tier decks tool (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tierdecks.php) since the re-introduction of the "monthly DTB update", and yet before it, since I was one of the few that wanted it back.

If you get the current deck of the month which is February's best deck, it's Maverick. Maverick has been the best deck of the month since September 2011, which means it's the deck that puts most results since August 2011.

But before that, Maverick had more Top1's, and several Top4, counting back to March 2011.

Maverick has been among the TOP 3 decks in the format for 1 year now, fighting against very diverse decks which dominated the format for small periods.

What this thread is to discuss is: Is Maverick the most consistant deck ATM? What is the best deck to fight it? Is it indeed dominating the format?

Discuss.

[Vacrix]

Well ontop of GSZ making it consistent all around at finding answers to whatever is going wrong (whether it be QP, Thalia, Teeg, etc.).. it has multiple variants all of which are placing well. I'd say the GWU variant and the Punishing Fire variant are making it harder for the metagame to adjust to Maverick. These are variations swing the matchups in different directions more so than when we were dealing with different variations on Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins, etc.

[kusumoto]

Well ontop of GSZ making it consistent all around at finding answers to whatever is going wrong (whether it be QP, Thalia, Teeg, etc.).. it has multiple variants all of which are placing well. I'd say the GWU variant and the Punishing Fire variant are making it harder for the metagame to adjust to Maverick. These are variations swing the matchups in different directions more so than when we were dealing with different variations on Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins, etc.

GSZ only gets green creatures.

[Hanni]

Maverick took advantage of what Merfolk left behind: a metagame devoid of board control (Landstill, Countertop). It's replacement as the new Beat Blue came at a time when blue decks had adjusted to Merfolk; primarily, the masses masterbating over Stoneforge Mystic.

Maverick has a great matchup against Stoneblade and RUG Threshold, where Merfolk did not. People have not yet realized that the blue decks that Maverick beats are not the same blue decks that Merfolk beat.

Once people start playing board control again (BUG, UW/x, etc), Maverick will be tamed down a bit. Wrath of God and Pernicious Deed, along with a boatload of other removal spells, is really good against Maverick.

Of course, Combo has been underplayed for a while too, and even with Thalia and Teeg, still has a good matchup against Maverick.

Burn beats unprepared Maverick decks, too (hence its DTB status right now).

[cuthbertthecat]

In my experience, Lands with Cursed Totem is a very good deck to beat Maverick. Current builds can't beat Cursed Totem pre or post board, and if you get it with Ensnaring Bridge it's almost a hard lock.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Hanni is quite correct; more Wraths or Deeds and other board control elements would make the format much worse for Maverick.

I think combo is also a factor. While Maverick lists have been honing like a laser on repairing this matchup, I would still much rather be High Tide than Maverick in that matchup.

[Hanni]

Since one of the questions posed in the opening post is:
What is the best deck to fight it?
Here's my BUG Control list, which destroys Maverick:

U/B/g The Mind Harvester

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Underground Sea
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Bayou
2 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [OD] Cabal Pit
1 [ON] Lonely Sandbar
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Intuition
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
2 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [OD] Ghastly Demise
1 [RAV] Darkblast
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [IA] Zuran Orb
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

I change around the list alot, as there are quite a few flex spots, but the core is solid.

[bruizar]

Maverick's recent success and rise in popularity can be attributed to both the printing of Scavenging Ooze and Green Sun's Zenith. Ooze with GSZ made it so that there is a reliable chance to hate out graveyard strategies in game 1 (although it has Loaming Shaman too), a way to gain life (besides SFM/Batterskull), and another enormous creature to deal with. This utility, coupled with the availability of Qasali Pridemage means that the toolbox for Maverick decks is simply very strong.

The strength of Survival of the Fittest came from the fact that you could combo out through hate, because of the built in tutor for a silver bullet. Maverick retains this ability, but trades the fast combo approach for more fair beaters such as Knight of the Reliquary (adding utility through cards like Maze of Ith, Grove of the Burnwillows and Karakas, or even trading a Dryad Arbor for a land, and then using the arbor to pump up Scavenging Ooze to 5/5 killing my germ token, which happened to me yesterday.).

It is the combination of the biggest beaters in the format, plus the fact that there is a reliable way to gain access to your silver bullets that make the deck as successful as it is.

On the topic of Scavenging Ooze: It's not too many years ago that Withered Wretch was one of the prime graveyard removal cards in Vintage. Scavenging Ooze is bigger, easier to hardcast, gains life and is green thus tutorable with Zenith.

Much of the attention is currently going to GSZ, which is fair, but the silver bullets that make GSZ worth the trouble are just as guilty for the current results.

[routlaw]

Maverick, Blade Control, and RUG Delver lists have all been nearly equally represented since the banning of Mental Misstep and the release of Innistrad on TC Decks, and I really don't see any one dominating all that much more than the other, especially not so much that the OH NOES TEH ZENITHZ!!! response on some less sane parts of the internet is anywhere remotely justified.

It's a very consistent midrange board presence deck that just so happens to be a strong metagame predator against the other two top decks in the format. It's been relatively under-hated by the format as a whole (who have been more interested in hating out fringe combo decks, not losing to Dredge, and beating Blade Control) by the format, given Maverick's popularity.

People need to stop goofing around with a couple of extra single-target removal spells and start dropping directed, more narrow nuclear bombs like Humility or mass removal against the deck.

[KobeBryan]

Since one of the questions posed in the opening post is:
Here's my BUG Control list, which destroys Maverick:

U/B/g The Mind Harvester

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Underground Sea
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Bayou
2 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [OD] Cabal Pit
1 [ON] Lonely Sandbar
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Intuition
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
2 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [OD] Ghastly Demise
1 [RAV] Darkblast
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [IA] Zuran Orb
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

I change around the list alot, as there are quite a few flex spots, but the core is solid.

That is probably the most boring deck in the world.

[Hanni]

That is probably the most boring deck in the world.

To play against? Maybe. To play with? It's a lot of fun.

In all fairness, at least the decks clock is faster than something like oldschool Landstill.

[Plague Sliver]

Hanni's deck list

Now THIS is the type of deck I would love to play. BUG control, either Hanni or Spagnolo style :cool:.

As other mentioned, Maverick is just outright consistent. Toolbox + Thalia + Mom + Knight of the Reliquary beatstick. Last tournament I went to was all Maverick all the time.

The only way I see for this dominance to wean off is for combo to come out in full force, but even then it's questionable with (1) the other blue decks in the format keeping it in check and (2) Thalia.

[JDK]

That is probably the most boring deck in the world.

Welcome to BUG. :tongue:

[joemauer]

Elves is actually quite good against maverick.

Also, storm type combo decks are still able to beat maverick most of the times.
I think combo may be less played though because it is no longer an auto win versus maverick. Maverick was the good matchup for TES/ANT decks, but now it can put up a fight.

[Koby]

Maverick is highly susceptible to Progenitus backed by some disruption. It's still soft to combo and even with Thalia the matchups went from <pls mulligan to bad hand> to <pls mulligan to slow hand> or highly unfavored to just plain unfavored.

Three major steps are needed to curb Maverick:
1. More combo decks
2. More mass removal (Perish, Virtue's Ruin, EE, Deed, maindeck Wrath, Pyroclasm, etc)
3. Show & Tell

The last one can be either Sneak Attack or Hive Mind variety; but the latter loses its luster when it hits a critical mass in the metagame due to Angel's Grace.

As to why Maverick is finally recognized as the top dog? Its been dominant in Europe since at least June 2011; but Americans just can't seem to shake their addiction to Brainstorm. It may be dominating the format but only so long as people continue to play decks that are outdated, untuned, and relying on yesterday's strategies to get them to victory. The deck is still at its core 30 creatures + GSZ and fights at a fair level.

Humility and Cursed Totem help to scale back the power level; as does black disruption. It shouldn't be a surprise that Green's strength has been unchecked while Black's disruption has been sidelined.

[Oiolosse]

nicely formatted stuff...It shouldn't be a surprise that Green's strength has been unchecked while Black's disruption has been sidelined.

I don't understand. Can you please elaborate?

[Koby]

I don't understand. Can you please elaborate?

Not enough Perish/Massacre/Smallpox/Dystopia/Hymn cards are being played in the metagame, or the metagame preceding in the last 6 months. Black has been ignored as a color during this time, and it has the better tools to address Maverick.

It doesn't help that the most widespread playable black card is effectively colorless (Surgical Extraction).

[baghdadbob]

To play against? Maybe. To play with? It's a lot of fun.

In all fairness, at least the decks clock is faster than something like oldschool Landstill.

Your deck looks very similar/subpar to the deck that Di has already suggested in his most recent article.

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=993931

He has accounted for beating most of the dtb/established with this style BUG deck. You should all be sure to check it out. I am particularly intrigued by the inclusion of Night Of Souls Betrayal. It is like running a constant darkblast on all creatures. Not sure if it could be something else but it is certainly intriguing.

[morgan_coke]

Astral Slide beats living hell out of Maverick, RUG, and Esper/Stoneblade. Just sayin'.

[preddi]

I think there are plenty of decks and cards that stomp maverick to the ground. Combo Decks like TES, Cards like Deed and Humility are the obvious ones.

I think very few players run these decks and cards at the moment because the meta is not suited for it. Playing TES against RUG and Esper Stoneblade doesn't seem to be a place you want to be in. The same goes for bombs like Humility. By the time you can cast a Humility against Delver with Wastland, Stifle and Daze (not to mention Spell Pierce) you should be almost dead.

So my conclusion: Maverick is a strong deck, but the main reason for its success is the current metagame, which will punish people, who play slow bombs.

[Vacrix]

Just played a few games with the Snagolo BUG Control list. Pretty solid list, and it transforms well against the mirror. Deed is just too good.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Maverick has been among the TOP 3 decks in the format for 1 year now
Yeah, it crushed when MM was around too, but everyone was in that Hivemind mentality too much to try it.

[Bryant Cook]

Cook’s Kitchen –An Uprising of Mavericks (http://jupitergamesonline.com/2012/1240/cooks-kitchen-an-uprising-of-mavericks)

[Einherjer]

I brewed a BUG Deedstill(4 Deed, 4 Standstill, 3 Jace, 2 Liliana, 1 Snapcaster) and im 10X-X/2 against Maverick. But I have a really hard time to fight Canadian and Ive got an even Stoneblade-MU.

Sounds like the perfect deck doesnt it? You know why it isnt? Cause of friggen Budget-Decks like Burn. BUG cant beatz Burn....

[Antonius]

cast one of the following:

pernicious deed

seismic assault

Maverick can't really beat either. I assure you.

[Gui]

I brewed a BUG Deedstill(4 Deed, 4 Standstill, 3 Jace, 2 Liliana, 1 Snapcaster) and im 10X-X/2 against Maverick. But I have a really hard time to fight Canadian and Ive got an even Stoneblade-MU.

Sounds like the perfect deck doesnt it? You know why it isnt? Cause of friggen Budget-Decks like Burn. BUG cant beatz Burn....

This seems to be a problem... are the good decks to fight Maverick not viable because they are not good against the other tier decks in the format (namely RUG and UWx)

[Antonius]

This seems to be a problem... are the good decks to fight Maverick not viable because they are not good against the other tier decks in the format (namely RUG and UWx)

IMO, it's burn that's really pushing said decks out of the format....

except for the Veteran Explorer deck which no one (at least on this side of the Mississippi) is really playing. Accelerated deed seems super good.

[Fade]

IMO, it's burn that's really pushing said decks out of the format....

except for the Veteran Explorer deck which no one (at least on this side of the Mississippi) is really playing. Accelerated deed seems super good.

I've played against the standard GB list of Nic Fit and Maverick still seems to win a lot of the games as they rely too heavily on Deed to win. Eventually, Maverick plays out enough threats where I just end up sandbagging creatures to refuel the field when they blow deed up and regain board position after they blow it up. Maybe the GBr or GBw lists are better but I've not been impressed with Nic Fit thus far.

[DrHealex]

cast one of the following:

pernicious deed

seismic assault

Maverick can't really beat either. I assure you.

I am still playing my trusty punishing mav but feel like it has become a bit too popular for my liking and have been looking for a new deck to go to. Usually I that decide that from Hatfields TMI Metagame report, but I keep feeling that aggro loam is the way to go. THE RGB verision or the BGW version. It seems like the color black is poised in a very good way to take on the current metagame.

[wcm8]

Would this card be fair?

XB
Sorcery
Search your library for a black sorcery card with cmc X or less. You may play that spell without paying its mana cost until end of turn. Shuffle ~this~ into your library.

How about this one?

XUU
Instant
Search your library for a blue instant card with cmc X or less. You may play that spell without paying its mana cost until end of turn. Shuffle ~this~ into your library.

Both of these cards would be pretty busted in Legacy and Vintage, since they give you pinpoint access to an answer at minimal additional cost.

I am not saying GSZ is banworthy, merely pointing out that GSZ is extremely versatile and powerful. The hypothetical cards I'm presenting here would be at around the same power level as GSZ (well maybe not the blue one, that might need another U tacked onto its cost).

[Fade]

Would this card be fair?

XB
Sorcery
Search your library for a black sorcery card with cmc X or less. You may play that spell without paying its mana cost until end of turn. Shuffle ~this~ into your library.

How about this one?

XUU
Instant
Search your library for a blue instant card with cmc X or less. You may play that spell without paying its mana cost until end of turn. Shuffle ~this~ into your library.

Both of these cards would be pretty busted in Legacy and Vintage, since they give you pinpoint access to an answer at minimal additional cost.

I am not saying GSZ is banworthy, merely pointing out that GSZ is extremely versatile and powerful. The hypothetical cards I'm presenting here would be at around the same power level as GSZ (well maybe not the blue one, that might need another U tacked onto its cost).

The shuffle back in is the only problem. If it didn't have that people wouldn't care.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Enchantress beats Burn, Maverick and RUG and splits with Blade. Just throwing that out there.

Also, does anyone know how the Goblins vs. Maverick matchup goes?

Also, how does Maverick deal with Aggroloam? I know Ooze is key but most lists only run two, and what if they die?

Maverick is a really fair deck. It seems pretty clear that its dominance just demands a metagame evolution, not a banning.

[jrw1985]

Also, does anyone know how the Goblins vs. Maverick matchup goes?

If Goblins get T1 Lackey and Maverick plays a T1 blocker, Maverick loses. If Goblins has removal for Mom before she becomes active, Goblins has a good advantage. If Goblins has an active, unanswered Vial, it starts looking rough for Maverick.

If Maverick plays a 1 drop, then Swords the Goblin Lackey, Maverick is pretty much set up to win. Getting 2 big beats out for Maverick (KotR, Thrun, NOT Ooze) starts making things difficult for gobbos also.

[Fade]

Enchantress beats Burn, Maverick and RUG and splits with Blade. Just throwing that out there.

Also, does anyone know how the Goblins vs. Maverick matchup goes?

Also, how does Maverick deal with Aggroloam? I know Ooze is key but most lists only run two, and what if they die?

Maverick is a really fair deck. It seems pretty clear that its dominance just demands a metagame evolution, not a banning.

Goblins matchup is even if not slightly in Maverick's favor. Maverick has Stoneforge to Jitte (assuming they haven't cut it already - then it goes to even), Stp, and infinite dorks to block the turn 1 lackey. As long as Maverick develops their board and Goblins doesn't get their fast start it's game over.

I haven't tested Loam because only me and another local player have it in my meta but it just seems terrible for Maverick. Crushers can get bigger than Knight, Terravore plus Stronghold to get it back, Seismic Assault, and they also play Oozes. The list of threats they have go on and on. Maverick really needs them to have a slow start to stand a chance.

[wcm8]

Enchantress beats Burn, Maverick and RUG and splits with Blade. Just throwing that out there.

Also, does anyone know how the Goblins vs. Maverick matchup goes?

Also, how does Maverick deal with Aggroloam? I know Ooze is key but most lists only run two, and what if they die?

Maverick is a really fair deck. It seems pretty clear that its dominance just demands a metagame evolution, not a banning.

Aggroloam sometimes just dies to its own inconsistency. I've beaten Loam before with various tempo decks simply because even with the loam engine online, they couldn't find/resolve a threat/answer in time -- and those decks are supposedly one of Loam's best matchups. Maverick has an even easier time dealing with that deck since the mana denial plan can be mostly negated thanks to Hierarchs/Basics, Ooze/Pridemage can be searched up, and Mom can negate their targeted removal.

Aside from a complete nuts draw for the Goblins player, Maverick can easily deal with that deck as well. Even the dreaded turn 1 Lackey play can be easily negated with Fetch -> Dryad Arbor. Once Maverick gets Mom, Knight, and/or Jitte online, its over. I suppose B/R goblins could have decent game with Weirding and Perish,etc. in the board.

Maverick is the obvious end result of the deluge of quality spells-on-legs creatures that have been printed in the past few years.

[DrHealex]

The shuffle back in is the only problem. If it didn't have that people wouldn't care.

The problem with those made up cards is that instants and sorcerys are by design more powerful than permanents since they are single use.

Ever color has multiple answers to creatures (and they play them MD already... How conveniient), other non-creature permanents and spells... Not-so-much...

[Fade]

The problem with those made up cards is that instants and sorcerys are by design more powerful than permanents since they are single use.

Ever color has multiple answers to creatures (and they play them MD already... How conveniient), other non-creature permanents and spells... Not-so-much...

Sorry I was referring to GSZ being able to shuffle back in. If it didn't have that clause then people wouldn't care because they could counter it and not have to worry about it anymore. I once drew green sun zenith three times off the top in consecutive turns. My opponent was not happy, I on the other hand was amazed.

[Tao]

Vs. Aggro Loam the matchup is solid, every game is about who comes quicker out of the gates. Maverick has Mother of Runes to dominate the board, Swords to Plowshares because Aggro Loam is very light on threats, Knight of the Reliquary obviously and the GSZ toolbox to either axe Chalice with Pridemage or Yard shenanigans with Ooze. Plus Maverick has the better SB options in this matchup.
Maverick beats up Goblins pretty badly (is there any deck left that doesn't?). Mother of Runes is a beating, Swords is an efficient solution to their major threat which is either Lackey or Warchief, KotR abysses them pretty quickly and if Jitte ever gets online the game simply ends.

Of course the matchups can easily be influenced if you expect an amount of Maverick similar to last SCG. A RB Goblin list with Perish and Virtue's Ruin in the SB should be easily favored vs. Maverick in games 2 and 3 and that is why bannings are unnessecary. If you want to beat Maverick you go and beat it, no problem, but most people simply refuse to do so. It is a mentality problem. For example I know for sure it is right to play 2 Damnations in the Nic Fit SB (rather 3 now) and always advocated to do so but it just doesn't happen and now I have read bullshit about how Maverick does okay vs Nic Fit.

[Fade]

Vs. Aggro Loam the matchup is solid, every game is about who comes quicker out of the gates. Maverick has Mother of Runes to dominate the board, Swords to Plowshares because Aggro Loam is very light on threats, Knight of the Reliquary obviously and the GSZ toolbox to either axe Chalice with Pridemage or Yard shenanigans with Ooze. Plus Maverick has the better SB options in this matchup.
Maverick beats up Goblins pretty badly (is there any deck left that doesn't?). Mother of Runes is a beating (if you play it that is), Swords is efficient solutions to their major threat which is either Lackey or Warchief, KotR abysses them pretty quickly and if Jitte ever gets online the game simply ends.

Of course the matchups can easily be influenced if you expect an amount of Maverick similar to last SCG. A RB Goblin list with Perish and Virtue's Ruin in the SB should be easily favored vs. Maverick in games 2 and 3 and that is why bannings are unnessecary. If you want to beat Maverick you go and beat it, no problem, but most people simply refuse to do so. It is a mentality problem. For example I know for sure it is right to play 2 Damnations in the Nic Fit SB (rather 3 now) and always advocated to do so but it just doesn't happen and now I have read bullshit about how Maverick does okay vs Nic Fit.

The list I tested against had 1 damnation and 3 deeds main. He had the other deed side and I'm unsure if he had any extra damnations, but he told me that his list was standard GB. I've tested about 20 games so far (mostly the night before GP Indy) and I don't know if it was bad draws or what but even after he deeds I still came out of it and win multiple times. I also played him last weekend in local legacy and I won the match 2-1 where the game he won he played Deed, exploded. I laid down KOTR and then he had the Grave Titan. My only out was Swords/Path and I didn't have it on top.

I think GBw has a better matchup against Maverick if they play academy rector to fetch out deeds/recurring nightmare with Yosei, but I'm not sure.

[Antonius]

Vs. Aggro Loam the matchup is solid, every game is about who comes quicker out of the gates. Maverick has Mother of Runes to dominate the board, Swords to Plowshares because Aggro Loam is very light on threats, Knight of the Reliquary obviously and the GSZ toolbox to either axe Chalice with Pridemage or Yard shenanigans with Ooze. Plus Maverick has the better SB options in this matchup.


Last I checked, you have 4 swords against Lavamancer, Ooze, Crusher and Bob. All of which can wreck you if left unanswered for more than a turn. That's on top of seismic assault and the best removal you can get out of red and perish out of the sideboard. I don't see how this has ever been a good matchup for maverick.

[Einherjer]

Enchantress wins vs RUG? Atleast preboard RUG is definitely favored.

Ive been brewing a Punishing-Tombstalker-list one or two months ago which had a good MU vs Maverick and Stoneblade...Ill have to look for it in the Developmental Section and maybe revite it...(name is PunishingStalker)

Greetings

[DrHealex]

Enchantress wins vs RUG? Atleast preboard RUG is definitely favored.

Ive been brewing a Punishing-Tombstalker-list one or two months ago which had a good MU vs Maverick and Stoneblade...Ill have to look for it in the Developmental Section and maybe revite it...(name is PunishingStalker)

Greetings

Clearly the best manner in which to combine those two words would results in "Punisher. then just call it "The Punisher" since punishing fire + grove is basically a gun with infinite ammo :p

[sdematt]

I do pretty well against Maverick with Loam as well. Devastating Dreams is a card in that matchup, not to mention Virtue's ruin (an actual one-sided Wrath), Ooze, Lavamancer, and Seismic Assault. If you don't have Qasali for Assault, you're dead. That turn, or the next. I've won games where Maverick had Knights, equipment, and all the other garbage online. I drew Assault, Loamed, and won. Nice board state, champ. Non-interaction is the way to go :P

-Matt

[Arianrhod]

The list I tested against had 1 damnation and 3 deeds main. He had the other deed side and I'm unsure if he had any extra damnations, but he told me that his list was standard GB. I've tested about 20 games so far (mostly the night before GP Indy) and I don't know if it was bad draws or what but even after he deeds I still came out of it and win multiple times. I also played him last weekend in local legacy and I won the match 2-1 where the game he won he played Deed, exploded. I laid down KOTR and then he had the Grave Titan. My only out was Swords/Path and I didn't have it on top.

I think GBw has a better matchup against Maverick if they play academy rector to fetch out deeds/recurring nightmare with Yosei, but I'm not sure.

I've been one of the only people playing the Veteran deck/Nic Fit on the eastern side of the Mississippi...I started brewing with Veteran Explorer when I saw it in the one Commander deck (no idea it existed before that), then in June/July I found a fledgling thread on here for the beginnings of the deck. I play GBw with Rector, and took my list to 6-3 at Indy, missing day two narrowly. The deck's Maverick matchup is a little awkward, but it can usually get the job done. My list runs Moat, which immediately slows Maverick to a crawl -- most lists seem to only run one or two Qasalis maindeck, and although Zenith can provide extra copies, it seems like they usually Zenith for Scryb Ranger instead to start aerial assault, which then gets Deeded, Vindicated, Garruked, Pulsed, Baneslayered, etc.

The real problem is that Nic Fit isn't built to beat Maverick. It feels like the deck -should- have a solid game plan against them, as it runs removal, sweep, and bigger threats; but the extra consistency of Maverick is oftentimes a problem. In that regard, Nic Fit is as every other Rock deck ever made -- it sometimes implodes upon itself. That said, if Nic Fit experienced a metagame evolution tuned to beat Maverick, it would devour Maverick. Right now, it's tuned to eat Thresh and Stoneblade, so its Maverick matchup is a bit more even. It will be very interesting to see what happens going forward. I'm guessing Maverick and Nic Fit will continue to push blue decks out of the format, until eventually combo reigns supreme for a while, giving blue the opportunity to push back. Maverick and Nic Fit both need to side a -lot- of cards against combo.

[Vacrix]

In Snagolo's BUG list.. post-board Dread of Night is ridiculous against Maverick. It makes Innocent Blood more powerful because they have fewer creatures to sac and it makes your spot removal better because you don't have to deal with Mom. You can also basically lock them out of the game if you can land another one, or Night of the Souls' Betrayal. Thats better than Deed because its a permanent board state.

[Koby]

I think people are over-estimating the strength of Dread of Night in the matchup. It helps to clear out Moms + Thalia, but it doesn't really stop Nobles, Oozes, Pridemages, or Knights. The threat density, backed with Wasteland, really puts a ton of stress on the BUG player. The BUG list also relies very heavily on its 4-drops to stabilize. I can see a scenario where Dread of Night, Perish, and NoSB all play important roles together in stalling Maverick long enough to establish the end-game.

I can't however see BUG beating a really aggro heavy draw without the Perish tho.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

NicFit beating Maverick would require people to make tough choices to streamline the deck and give it the same kind of consistency as a board control deck that Maverick has a midrange deck. At least people seem to be cutting the Hermits and Kitchen Finks from the thread, but it needs a lot more fine-tuning to get there. At the moment I'd much rather run Dave Price's Loam-Control (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43394) list.

[Nonex]

Astral Slide beats living hell out of Maverick, RUG, and Esper/Stoneblade. Just sayin'.

Last time I played against Maverick with Slide I stalled his army with Consuming Vapors until I got the mana to wipe the board with All Is Dust.

I should sleeve it up again just to relive those memories.

[lordofthepit]

Sorry I was referring to GSZ being able to shuffle back in. If it didn't have that clause then people wouldn't care because they could counter it and not have to worry about it anymore. I once drew green sun zenith three times off the top in consecutive turns. My opponent was not happy, I on the other hand was amazed.

Even with the clause (i.e. GSZ as written), your opponent could counter GSZ and not worry about that particular copy anymore. I don't think the shuffle back in clause is a big deal at all. It only matters in a game that goes super long, but on the other hand, makes your Tarmogoyfs, Grim Lavamancer, and Snapcaster Mages (in decks like Big Zoo and Bant) weaker. It's a neutral addition, IMO.

[Oiolosse]

Not enough Perish/Massacre/Smallpox/Dystopia/Hymn cards are being played in the metagame, or the metagame preceding in the last 6 months. Black has been ignored as a color during this time, and it has the better tools to address Maverick.

It doesn't help that the most widespread playable black card is effectively colorless (Surgical Extraction).

I guess I am hung up on why it isn't a surprise that black has been sidelined.

Do you mean to say that, either:

"It shouldn't be a surprise that Green's strength has been unchecked because Black's disruption has been sidelined.

Or

"It shouldn't be a surprise that Green's strength has been unchecked while Black's disruption is sidelined."

I'm not trolling, I just can't connect the implication.

Thanks!

[ESG]

I'm seconding Antonius and sdematt's assertions that Aggro Loam is favored against Maverick. I've never lost the matchup, although my mainboard was somewhat different than theirs when I played the deck regularly (fewer creatures, more board control, including Punishing Fires). Devastating Dreams is ridiculous against an aggro deck with no counterspells.

Pretty much any midrange deck based on board control should crush Maverick: Burn with sweepers, Deed-based decks, Pox. The fastest combo decks get the job done before Thalia comes down, and the combo decks currently stymied by Maverick will adapt. Also, there are a ton of powerful hate cards you can run against Maverick, which people have only started to explore.

[xfxf]

The problem with those decks is that they have weaknesses against the rest of the field. Such as BUG being very vulnerable to Burn and mana denial strategies.

[Richard Cheese]

Never dropped a round to Maverick with any build of Nic Fit. Unfortunately, Nic Fit has the same issue as other decks like MUD that run a bunch of acceleration into a few high cost bombs. Sometimes you open a bunch of acceleration and can't find a bomb, other times you open a bunch of fatties and deeds and no way to do anything meaningful early in the game. You have to mulligan aggressively and sometimes it still just poops the bed. I agree that the deck needs more consistency, but I think that's a fundamental flaw of that style of deck that just isn't going to go away.

[Koby]

I guess I am hung up on why it isn't a surprise that black has been sidelined.

Do you mean to say that, either:

"It shouldn't be a surprise that Green's strength has been unchecked because Black's disruption has been sidelined.

Or

"It shouldn't be a surprise that Green's strength has been unchecked while Black's disruption is sidelined."

I'm not trolling, I just can't connect the implication.

Thanks!

Perhaps its because Black decks are unplayable in the metagame, or they only have good games against fair creature decks. Fair Black cards are underwhelming in this metagame while only being good against creature strategies and abysmal against Blue control strategies. This puts it in the Decks-that-beat-the-Deck-that-beats-the-Decks-To-Beat camp.

I predict a higher concentration of Black splashes in the next few weeks to shore up Maverick matchups however. Something that we've seen starting to occur since Martell's Esperblade list back at Indy.

[ReAnimator]

People really need to be running more massacre.

[CorpT]

People really need to be running more massacre.

Teeg says no.

[ReAnimator]

Teeg says no.

Really? cause there are certainly lists that don't run him, and a lot that just put him in the board or just as a one of. Massacre still seems really good against that deck even with access to teegs.

[CorpT]

Really? cause there are certainly lists that don't run him, and a lot that just put him in the board or just as a one of. Massacre still seems really good against that deck even with access to teegs.

Massacre is still fine. But if you're running a deck that is weak to Teeg, they're going to be getting it early. And I don't think many decks aren't running Teeg main.

[xfxf]

The issue is not finding "a card" which slaps Maverick. It's brewing a deck which slaps Maverick and still holds its ground in the Meta. High Tide beats Maverick pretty handily right? I've been playing it for the past two months and have recently moved to a new meta. Since then I played against Maverick once (and beat it obv) but played against Burn, Counterbalance, Pox, Elves, Reanimator, Doomsday, Dredge which are all bad matchups for me. The Tier 1 decks (RUG and UWx Stoneblade) have relatively easier game against such a diverse field but fold to Maverick. So that's the issue.

[ESG]

@bilb_O: So either the field was right for High Tide and you got unfavorable pairings or that field was hostile to High Tide and you should have run a different deck. If people bring hate cards against Maverick, it will fall and be replaced by a different deck. I don't see the problem. The deck isn't doing anything broken. If you're going to a tournament and expect Maverick to be well-represented, play a deck that beats it and the other major decks. I don't know if High Tide was right because I don't know what the rest of the field was.

[xfxf]

I'm not saying Maverick is doing anything broken in particular. It's just a very good deck. And the plus side is the decks and strategies which can beat it constantly are not as resilient to diversity as Maverick is, so basically it has no natural predators in an open field.

Playing decks like Sneak and Show, High Tide etc. won't make Maverick go away because those decks are also very meta dependent. Also playing hate cards won't make it go away because look at all the efficient graveyard hate you can bring yet Reanimator, Dredge never goes away.

So what I'm saying is we need to come up with other non-linear good decks.

[DragoFireheart]

Remember when people wanted to ban Brainstorm?

lol



Pretty much any midrange deck based on board control should crush Maverick: Burn with sweepers, Deed-based decks, Pox. The fastest combo decks get the job done before Thalia comes down, and the combo decks currently stymied by Maverick will adapt. Also, there are a ton of powerful hate cards you can run against Maverick, which people have only started to explore.

I would love to see more Pox decks appear. They are good at royally screwing someones mana base over. They can also run discard effects and lots of solid graveyard hate to fight your typical storm/dredge/reanimator deck game two. The fact that Burn has recently become a viable Tier 1 meta deck is evidence that there may be other decks that can be tested that can fight Maverick decks well.

[Rizso]

Sweepers overall is way to underplayed. Without playing cards like Damnation, wrath of god, pernicious deed, Massacre, Perish with others they deserve to lose to maverick imo.

[ddt15]

They could potentially ban GSZ based on the same reasoning they used for MT imo.

[Fade]

They could potentially ban GSZ based on the same reasoning they used for MT imo.

Banning MT was unjustified. It happened to show up way too much in the meta as it was both in storm and reanimator, which were the two of the most popular decks at that time. The meta was getting stale and they banned MT to give other decks a "chance".

GSZ on the other hand is in one deck of the three most popular decks (RUG, UWx Blade, Maverick) and Maverick alone is not making up as much of the field as storm and reanimator did when they banned MT. Again, as it's been said a lot, Maverick is one of the most fair decks in the meta and is definitely beatable. If people played more board sweepers it would be a better match up for them.

Until the meta settles a bit there is no reason to ban GSZ, not even on the basis that MT was banned, as Maverick is not oppressing the format.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Banning MT was unjustified. It happened to show up way too much in the meta as it was both in storm and reanimator, which were the two of the most popular decks at that time. The meta was getting stale and they banned MT to give other decks a "chance".

GSZ on the other hand is in one deck of the three most popular decks (RUG, UWx Blade, Maverick) and Maverick alone is not making up as much of the field as storm and reanimator did when they banned MT.

Banning Mystical Tutor was unjustified, yes. While I don't remember the actual numbers, neither storm nor reanimator made up a large percentage of the metagame - I'm willing to bet that Maverick is far more prevalent now than either of those decks was.

[DragoFireheart]

Perhaps banning MT at the time was wrong, but I don't think I'd like to see it now. Actually, what impact would MT have being legal in the current meta?

[wcm8]

Perhaps banning MT at the time was wrong, but I don't think I'd like to see it now. Actually, what impact would MT have being legal in the current meta?

Reanimator, Storm, and other varieties of combo decks come back in full force. Tempo continues to be a good choice as a way to beat them. Maverick becomes an overall weaker choice, because combo decks being good makes midrange aggro bad. Reanimator especially will be a very strong choice, because Jin-Gitaxias really raised the power level of that deck.

However, the presence of combo could also lead to a resurgence of Counter/Top strategies. These decks are typically weak to Maverick, midrange 'Rock'-esque decks, and tribal aggro. So we may see old decks that got pushed out of the format by Batterskull come back to take advantage of the new metagame.

It's really hard to foresee the implications of unbanning Mystical Tutor. But I don't think it would necessarily be a bad thing.

Edit: I also think it'd be fine to unban Survival of the Fittest and ban Vengevine. Or maybe print a 'fixed' SotV that exiles the creature you're discarding. More variety in the format is not a bad thing.

[Koby]

Perspective - I've gots it.

Maverick accounted for 63 placings in the top decks of March according to TCdecks out of a total 446 decks. It puts it at 14.1% of the metagame. Stoneblade was slightly more at 64, and RUG Tempo at 45. Together, all three accounted for... 38% of the metagame!

I don't think there is a problem at all, aside from the rampant netdecking and lack of innovation/adaptation.

[mini1337s]

I don't think there is a problem at all, aside from the ... lack of innovation/adaptation.
Too true, and I think it goes beyond that. Maverick is well-positioned versus greedy control decks. People are far too quick to rely on crutching themself with FoW or rely on Stoneforge to turn a game with an unchecked Batterskull. Players need to replace last year's cards with ones that are valid now; decks don't need to lose to a 1 of Gaddock Teeg or Qasali Pridemage.

[Gui]

Perspective - I've gots it.

Maverick accounted for 63 placings in the top decks of March according to TCdecks out of a total 446 decks. It puts it at 14.1% of the metagame. Stoneblade was slightly more at 64, and RUG Tempo at 45. Together, all three accounted for... 38% of the metagame!

I don't think there is a problem at all, aside from the rampant netdecking and lack of innovation/adaptation.

When will people learn that what matters when considering whether there's a problem or not is the relative amount of wins, not the slice of the metagame?

There are several reasons for why a deck is not massively played, but an unbeatable deck will still be unbeatable even if it is only played by one person. I'm just exemplifying, and in no way saying Maverick is unbeatable, just saying that share of metagame is not a good indicator.

As in Candelabra High Tide not being played despite being stupid good, "just" because of the price.

[Koby]

When will people learn that what matters when considering whether there's a problem or not is the relative amount of wins, not the slice of the metagame?

There are several reasons for why a deck is not massively played, but an unbeatable deck will still be unbeatable even if it is only played by one person. I'm just exemplifying, and in no way saying Maverick is unbeatable, just saying that share of metagame is not a good indicator.

As in Candelabra High Tide not being played despite being stupid good, "just" because of the price.

Relative amount of wins will only start to matter once Prize Split options are completely eradicated. Until that point, Top 8 will be the best indicator of a deck's success at the conclusion of a tournament. How can we reliably measure a deck's success when there is little to no incentive for finishing the last 2 elimination rounds? At the Grand Prix level, this would make sense since there is a large gap between prizing and people fight for victory. At the SCG level, Top 4 chop is very common and the matches are played out more casually.

The metagame slice is a fine metric to measure a deck's dominance in this case.

[TsumiBand]

When will people learn that what matters when considering whether there's a problem or not is the relative amount of wins, not the slice of the metagame?

There are several reasons for why a deck is not massively played, but an unbeatable deck will still be unbeatable even if it is only played by one person. I'm just exemplifying, and in no way saying Maverick is unbeatable, just saying that share of metagame is not a good indicator.

As in Candelabra High Tide not being played despite being stupid good, "just" because of the price.

I think Koby might be downplaying the relevance of this comment. Metagame is just a fancy way of saying "the decks people bring to the very next tournament", and you must admit that these will fluctuate in certain regions given outside factors such as player age, player money and player skill. It doesn't matter if the best deck in the format is Maverick if it costs an arbitrarily high amount of money, or if there's some tangible barrier to actually playing the deck.

[Koby]

I think Koby might be downplaying the relevance of this comment. Metagame is just a fancy way of saying "the decks people bring to the very next tournament", and you must admit that these will fluctuate in certain regions given outside factors such as player age, player money and player skill. It doesn't matter if the best deck in the format is Maverick if it costs an arbitrarily high amount of money, or if there's some tangible barrier to actually playing the deck.

I'm not downplaying it - can a deck that has 100% win rate, but based upon playing with Moat, Tabernacle, Grim Tutor, Candelabra, and Xiahuo the One-Eyed ever be considered a Tier 1 deck if only 5 people can play it?

It's a combination of both accessibility and playability that makes a deck a Top Tier performer. Does Candelabra High Tide have good matchups? Yes. Will it ever become a DTB? Unlikely - not enough people can afford to play it.

By extension, there will be less of it in any given tournament, and less preparation against it. This is what is defined by an expected metagame.

[luckme10]

What do we do about the Canadian peril that has swept the Starcitygames circuit? In taking 5 out of the last 8 spots in the top 8 of Des Moines, Iowa, it is clear that this RUG Tempo menace must be stopped! Our eyes are now open! Does Nimble Mongoose warrant a ban?

[KevinTrudeau]

What do we do about the Canadian peril that has swept the Starcitygames circuit? In taking 5 out of the last 8 spots in the top 8 of Des Moines, Iowa, it is clear that this RUG Tempo menace must be stopped! Our eyes are now open! Does Nimble Mongoose warrant a ban?

I think you mean Canadian menace, and since Canada (and Iowa for that matter) doesn't actually exist, we're in the clear.

Lots of pink polos in this top eight methinks, which could be the actual menace going forwards for Legacy. Shall have to wait for the finals to see whether or not Ryan is wearing one.

[joemauer]

What do we do about the Canadian peril that has swept the Starcitygames circuit? In taking 5 out of the last 8 spots in the top 8 of Des Moines, Iowa, it is clear that this RUG Tempo menace must be stopped! Our eyes are now open! Does Nimble Mongoose warrant a ban?

I would advise opening a new thread for this topic. Please label it "ban brainstorm: discussion".

[cuthbertthecat]

I think you mean Canadian menace, and since Canada (and Iowa for that matter) doesn't actually exist, we're in the clear.

Lots of pink polos in this top eight methinks, which could be the actual menace going forwards for Legacy. Shall have to wait for the finals to see whether or not Ryan is wearing one.

Ryan is, in fact, on the pink polo plan.

On topic, I wouldn't take this event too seriously. There was an absolute fuckload of Spiral Tide there, yet none in the RUG infested top 16. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that should be a pretty breezy matchup for good tide pilots, implying that the field at SCG Des Moines wasn't exactly top tier.

[Shawn]

I got 28th with High Tide. My losses were to Maverick guy who got t8, Death and Taxes (g2 I whiffed mid combo, and he drew 3x hate bear and Vial to trump Wipe Away and Snap in the decider), and Team America (old school, no Delvers).

One of my games vs Maverick was also pretty unfortunate, I whiffed on my 4th land after several cantrips and had Spiral+Tide ready in my hand then he played some hate piece I couldn't answer in time.

I thought my Team America opponent was on BUG control since all he was doing was draw cards with Jace and Loam g1 for infinite turns and I go off with FOW backup and Flusterstorm, but was blindsided by Stifle on my 6th land and 2x Daze. I got crushed on a mull to 6 game two.

[DrHealex]

If there was ever a time to post a link to this, now would be that time :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpUM47y7uT4

[CorpT]

I'd burn a Maple Leaf today.

[ESG]

There was an absolute fuckload of Spiral Tide there, yet none in the RUG infested top 16. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that should be a pretty breezy matchup for good tide pilots, implying that the field at SCG Des Moines wasn't exactly top tier.

It's only slightly in High Tide's favor Game 1. Game 2 depends on what RUG brings in. If the CounterTop package comes in, then Tide has a difficult road ahead. If I'm a High Tide player, that's not a field I want to fight through. Also, the High Tide player I watched earlier in the day threw away his chances via game rule violations. Not sure if the other guys running Tide played better. (I would hope so.)

[sdematt]

Well, how soft is Iowa's Legacy scene? These results may not even be significant, except for the fact some people in Iowa own Stifles, and may/may not farm corn.

I mean, if you're playing a good deck against RUG, I'm sure you'd make T16 (if you look, the only Rogue deck in the Top 16 is Ian Ellis, go Rock!). Point being, good decks beat out soft players; I'm sure a good player with a decent deck in that room could have done super well, assuming what I'm assuming.

-Matt

[CorpT]

Well, how soft is Iowa's Legacy scene? These results may not even be significant, except for the fact some people in Iowa own Stifles, and may/may not farm corn.

-Matt

I personally know two of the people in the top 8. One is a very solid player. The other is basically a joke among the testing group. If he can make the top 8, I would have to imagine that the tournament was pretty soft.

[M@verick]

Maverick will remain a consistent deck even banning GSZ. Is the interaction between his creatures which makes it a good deck. I refer to the facts: in my last 3 tournaments, I have splitted two finals and i got top8 in a 100 players tournament, with a zenith less building.

GW is the more consistent deck in the format, but is still beatable, and i think no one card must be banned because maverick is MTG 100%, a fair deck based in sinergy. People just need to adapt.

[Lejay]

GW is the more consistent deck in the format, but is still beatable, and i think no one card must be banned because maverick is MTG 100%, a fair deck based in sinergy. People just need to adapt.

People just don't adapt in Legacy, so I guess we'll go with the ban.

[Einherjer]

Ban a WHITE or GREEN fair card we would consider only a half-Legacycard because its not blue?!=?!=?!=?!You cant ban anything in this deck to weaken it so hard itll lose its position. Its a fair deck and everyone who keeps losing to them should reconsider their deck-choice.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Not really true. If you banned either GSZ or KotR the deck would be at best tier 2 tomorrow. Not that I would advocate banning either of those cards, the deck's hardly dominant in the meta, just good.

[xfxf]

the deck's hardly dominant in the meta, just good.

+1

And it's not that people are slow to adapt and play things which can beat Maverick consistently. Those decks have such vulnerabilities that they make a bad preference in the current metagame. And this makes Maverick a very good fair deck. If you take it out with bans we are left with blue decks and combo decks. I was advocating Maverick and Burn during the "ban Mental Misstep" discussions and I'm very happy to see Maverick as the best deck in the format and Burn as a Tier 1, punishing unsuspecting players.

[dontbiteitholmes]

The fuck is wrong with you scrubs. You cry for a year that blue is OP, then the second a non-blue deck starts winning events you want to ban GSZ? If you can't handle it go play Modern. I can't stand some of the whiners on these forums. I'm convinced 1/2 the people here just want WotC to ban cards until their pet deck is tier 1. Seriously though, if you think GSZ is broken Legacy is not the format for you.

What ever happened to the days when the mods just would lock a thread that was 100% people complaining about what non-dominant card should be banned. Someone make me a mod and the only thing I will do is instantly lock any thread the second someone says, "Well, they're going to have to ban XXX someday anyways, because every time a new XXX comes out is just gets better." Everyone can just sit back and watch the quality of the forums increase 10 fold.

[sdematt]

At this point in the game, you don't have to lose to Maverick if you don't want to. I guess people keep making bad choices.

-Matt

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Ryan is, in fact, on the pink polo plan.

On topic, I wouldn't take this event too seriously. There was an absolute fuckload of Spiral Tide there, yet none in the RUG infested top 16. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that should be a pretty breezy matchup for good tide pilots, implying that the field at SCG Des Moines wasn't exactly top tier.

Also wtf? RUG is easily Spiral Tide's worst matchup of the top tier decks. I have no idea what this is on about.