Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SIMMERING POT OF FECAL MATTER]

[TsumiBand]

Indeed. UW Planeswalker could be exciting.

What about Planeswalkers at 2cc? I think its possible in Legacy. Might cause problems in standard though where they don't have Pierce, Daze, and Snare.

Considering that planeswalkers also die to the attack step and that a 2cc planeswalker would have *maybe* 3 loyalty counters at MOST before you use its + ability (if it has one), I would venture to guess that it's not contingent on Spell Snare to exist to make it fair. Shit, burn as good as Shock would be problem enough for a tiny PW; that might render it situationally unplayable, but we are talking about the smallest planeswalker ever at a converted mana cost of 2 here.

[morgan_coke]

Well, today's spoilers are a big pile of unimpressive.

[TsumiBand]

Well, today's spoilers are a big pile of unimpressive.

I dunno, looks like they should have just called this expansion "Shit Kaalia's Into".

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129932&stc=1&d=1334116925

It might actually be better than Archangel of Strife, since that guy sometimes lets the opponent just chump your dudes. This straight doubles the damage dealt to every opponent and halves the damage dealt to you and your guys. Fucking sweet.

EDIT - clearly i speak of EDH. In Legacy, eeeeehhhhhh

[Vacrix]

Certainly. Angel's Tomb has some dope art though.

[baghdadbob]

The card is sweet in edh. I just learned the hard way that you should not play commander on cockatrice. You play against a bunch of 8 year old kids who are upset when you you target them or attack them with anything. Jesus what was I thinking...

[boneclub24]

Well, here's to tomorrow's spoilers!

[baghdadbob]

Eh.. if you are dealing with Knight of the Reliquary and friends then you'll be willing to pay as much as 6 life to keep 2 dudes in play. I don't think it makes Pox DTB but it will help them out against swarm matchups like Gobos, Elves and Affinity.

I don't really think that it makes pox a dtb. I was joking, although I guess that is hard to tell online. I do however think that this card should def be included in BUG control lists.

[lordofthepit]

Time Walk is busted, not because it always provides a broken effect, but because it is consistently useful (as long as you can resolve a two mana spell), since it replaces your draw and the mana you invested at worst. Occasionally, it's insane if you can time it correctly, but it isn't a bomb like Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, Jace, etc.--cards that actually win you the game.

Here's a thought experiment. How "broken" would this card be?

Gilded Sapphire, :4:
Miracle - :0:
Tap: Add :u: to your mana pool.
(You may pitch Gilded Sapphire to Force of Will.)

[catmint]

I don't really think that it makes pox a dtb. I was joking, although I guess that is hard to tell online. I do however think that this card should def be included in BUG control lists.

You are wrong here. BUG control usually does not pressure the life total, but wants to make sure creatures are dead. Best options for this are deed/Perish/damnation. Killing Wave gives the opponents a choice and is not playable in legacy.

[Gheizen64]

Time Walk is broken, not because it always provides a broken effect, but because it is consistently useful (as long as you can resolve a two mana spell), since it replaces your draw and the mana you invested at worst. Occasionally, it's broken if you can time it correctly, but it isn't a bomb like Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, Jace, etc.--cards that actually win you the game.

Here's a thought experiment. How "broken" would this card be?

Gilded Sapphire, :4:
Miracle - :0:
Tap: Add :u: to your mana pool.
(You may pitch Gilded Sapphire to Force of Will.)

Pretty not, i'd say. Moxen need to be in starting hand to be useful.

[Barook]

Well, today's spoilers are a big pile of unimpressive.
The only card that is halfway interesting is Tandem Lookout, mainly because it works with stuff like Lavamancer, too.

Still not too impressive.

[CorwinB]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=407398

Vexing Devil :r:
Creature - Devil
4/3
When Vexing Devil enters the battlefield, any opponent may have it deal 4 damage to him or her. If a player does, sacrifice Vexing Devil.

Woooah. :eek:

[Zinch]

Burn gonna rock after avacyn!

First the miracle spell and now this...

[xfxf]

With this and Thunderous Wrath I really feel like playing UR delver or should I say UR devil :laugh:

[Erdvermampfa]

All of this commotion is mainly due to the fact that it's a 4/3 for only one mana. In truth, this card is pretty bad actually. It's pretty much the same with Browbeat and has the same flaw as the opponent has a choice. You see, a deck with a lot of board presence (e.g. Maverick Stoneblade) don't care about that lousy 4/3 while control decks (and others) can 'counter' the 'burnspell' simply by casting a removal spell on it. Although I like the art, I got to say that this will never see play in neither Burn nor Delver.

edit: I'd rather play Browbeat than this ^^

[SpikeyMikey]

All of this commotion is mainly due to the fact that it's a 4/3 for only one mana. In truth, this card is pretty bad actually. It's pretty much the same with Browbeat and has the same flaw as the opponent has a choice. You see, a deck with a lot of board presence (e.g. Maverick Stoneblade) don't care about that lousy 4/3 while control decks (and others) can 'counter' the 'burnspell' simply by casting a removal spell on it. Although I like the art, I got to say that this will never see play in neither Burn nor Delver.

edit: I'd rather play Browbeat than this ^^


The flaw of opponent's choice is only relevant if one of those choices is signficantly worse than the other one for you. Which would you rather see out of Burn decks, a 4/3 creature or 4 damage to the face? Neither is acceptable; that deck is way too wicked fast to begin with. Fine, you can remove it. You can also remove Goblin Guide, Keldon Marauders, Hellspark Elemental, Grim Lavamancer and Dark Confidant. That doesn't mean that burn stops running those creatures simply because they can be removed. This is a significant threat addition to the deck.

[Final Fortune]

The flaw of opponent's choice is only relevant if one of those choices is signficantly worse than the other one for you. Which would you rather see out of Burn decks, a 4/3 creature or 4 damage to the face? Neither is acceptable; that deck is way too wicked fast to begin with. Fine, you can remove it. You can also remove Goblin Guide, Keldon Marauders, Hellspark Elemental, Grim Lavamancer and Dark Confidant. That doesn't mean that burn stops running those creatures simply because they can be removed. This is a significant threat addition to the deck.

This, the problem with the Browbeat analogy is that the two effects are overcosted to begin with, while 4 to the face or a 4/3 for 1 is fairly absurd either way. It's no Delver, but it does seem borderline playable.

[Erdvermampfa]

I partly agree with you as the devil is good at the beginning of the game I guess (when both choices of the opponent support your gameplan). However it sucks when your opponent managed to stabilize and took control of the game at about 4-6 life and you draw that shit. It's clear that he will choose the creature while the 4/3 won't bother him too much at this state of the game.

[Final Fortune]

It's more of a turn 3ish card, you can't lead with it because you're only doing 4 damage to your opponent instead of establishing board position in a Zoo esq type deck, but in Burn where damage basically is your only consideration I think it's viable. I think you're probably right in that it's not going to show up in U/R Delver, but if Goblin Guide made it I'm not even sure about that.

[Peter_Rotten]

I partly agree with you as the devil is good at the beginning of the game I guess (when both choices of the opponent support your gameplan). However it sucks when your opponent managed to stabilize and took control of the game at about 4-6 life and you draw that shit. It's clear that he will choose the creature while the 4/3 won't bother him too much at this state of the game.

Exactly. When you desperately need that card to be burn spell (probably at end game) he is a dead body. In the first two or three turns, when you prefer him to be a creature, the opponent will choose to take 4 to the dome.

Turns 1-3, you probably want him to be a creature. The opponent will take the damage instead.
Turns 3+, you probably want him to be burn spell (not always, but probably). The opponent will probably choose to have him be a critter.

Against a combo deck, this guy gives the opponent at least one turn before he deals damage.

However, with all that being said, he is rather under-costed and I'd guess that warrants testing.

[frogczar]

Vexing Devil just made my day.

Please go ahead and underestimate him further. It'll help keep the cost down for me to buy a playset immediately.

Thank you WotC for making burn players happy.

[Gheizen64]

This card show why Vise wouldn't be playable. This sucks way too much as a topdeck sadly. Should have been a 3/2 intimidate to be playable.

That said, i'll test it somewhere for sure.

[SpikeyMikey]

Exactly. When you desperately need that card to be burn spell (probably at end game) he is a dead body. In the first two or three turns, when you prefer him to be a creature, the opponent will choose to take 4 to the dome.

Turns 1-3, you probably want him to be a creature. The opponent will take the damage instead.
Turns 3+, you probably want him to be burn spell (not always, but probably). The opponent will probably choose to have him be a critter.

Against a combo deck, this guy gives the opponent at least one turn before he deals damage.

However, with all that being said, he is rather under-costed and I'd guess that warrants testing.

I'm not speaking for any deck other than burn. However, in burn, you're looking to win turn 3/4 every game with no manipulation. And you're not particularly interactive, so that's not a number that's flexible, the way say Bant or Maverick is flexible in its FT. So you're talking 2-4 draws outside of your opening 7. You're talking between 13% and 25% of the time drawing one outside of that opening 7. Yes, if you draw it on turn 4, it's pretty meh. However, a 4/3 body is *not* negligible even then. So what if they take 4 when you play it on turn 1? It's still better than Lightning Bolt most of the time, and you'll play even bad Lightning Bolt variants in burn (see Shard Volley, Chain Lightning, Lava Spike, Bump in the Night, etc.)

[I am the brainwasher]

Longhorn Firebeast will make a damn frowny face right now... .

[rufus]

No love for Descendant's Path in some kind of tribal deck?

[cheerios]

Descendant's Path can work with mutavault, don't know if the "combo" is legacy playable or not tho.

[UnsungHero]

Descendant's Path has some amazing artwork.

[Raystar]

Descendant's Path and Mutavault in play.

Wordly tutor for Emrakul, activate Mutavault...

I'll be called Chicken Little I know, but this seems a lot more busted than Time Walk 2.0 and can really be format breaking.

UGw Combo control anyone?

[Kich867]

It's really scary when magic has gotten to the point where a 4/3 for 1 mana or a 4 damage lava spike is being looked at skeptically and not good enough.

And we complain about power creep..

I remember when Savannah Lions were considered good because they're over budget.

[(nameless one)]

No love for Descendant's Path in some kind of tribal deck?

Honestly, is EOT Worldly Tutor for an Eldrazi, activate Mutavault on your upkeep to trigger Descendant's Path worth the play?

So much cards to rely on. Would it work in the mono-green 12post Eldrazi shell deck as an alternative in cheating an Eldrazi into play?

[Raystar]

I was just exaggerating, you could build a control shell and just fish for a big beater while you control the game and go through your deck like a champ sorting with a Top.

[feline]

Vexing devil, 1 mana to deal 4 damage to player, or 1 mana for a 4/3, opponents choice, I think we just found the new "browbeat" but even better/cheaper! I'm definitely getting 4 of these things! >^,^<

[Greenpoe]

Descendant's Path + Congregation at Dawn (With Mutvault of Course) into Coiling Oracle into Dryad Arbor into Chorus of the Conclave or something. Maybe there's some combo there. You don't actually need Mutavault with Congregation at Dawn, you could just do a simple stack of say Woodland Changeling into Emrakul. It could probably fit in a deck that would already want Worldy Tutor/Congregation at Dawn and Descendant's Path.

[Ignithas_]

Indeed. UW Planeswalker could be exciting.

What about Planeswalkers at 2cc? I think its possible in Legacy. Might cause problems in standard though where they don't have Pierce, Daze, and Snare.
Yeah. Imagine that:
T1: Brainstorm
T2: UW Plainswalker
T3: Miraclewalk
With FoW, that's gg.

[TorpidNinja]

Yeah. Imagine that:
T1: Brainstorm
T2: UW Plainswalker
T3: Miraclewalk
With FoW, that's gg.

Okay, I'll bite: gg why?

[Aggro_zombies]

Okay, I'll bite: gg why?
The UW planeswalker's +1 is "Target player mills 30 cards," clearly.

EDIT: I think the thought process here is usually, "I'm taking an extra turn for 1U, which is like Time Walk" ==> "Time Walk is part of the Power Nine" ==> "The Power Nine are broken" ==> "Therefore, taking an extra turn for 1U is broken." In the example you quoted, it's merely good: Ignithas_ gets an Explore and an extra use out of his two-mana planeswalker, which is fine, but not anywhere close to being back-breakingly broken. People are really overvaluing extra turns in the abstract here.

[ivanpei]

Too much trouble to set up emrakul finish when you can just polymorph a man land into an emrakul. That's much easier and doesn't see any play. What's interesting is that it's a Phyrexian Arena + Aether Vial all in one. Notice that it triggers during upkeep and does not replace your draw step.

Tribal decks which are 50++ % dudes could make use of the card as a draw engine/accelerator. It also works with Top/Sylvan library. Maybe a Green splash in Goblins for 2/3 pieces of Descendant's Path? Or an Vial Elf Aggro deck with Sylvan Library and Descendant's Path for gas/stacking? Even if you don't hit a dude with Descendant's path, it shoves it to the bottom for you, so it prevents you from drawing dead cards like Vial/Lands late in the game. Pretty nice to be honest. Has the potential to be swingy.

[Rizso]

Green got so many great humans that they probly wont be needing much to get the path activated alot even without mutavault.

[Xero]

Descendant's Path has some amazing artwork.

I agree, though I don't think it looks like a Magic card.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129942&d=1334138694

[Gheizen64]

I've played a couple of games with the Devil guy in my burn deck. He's better than i expected. It's true that being conditional is bad blah blah blah however those are a few point i noticed while playing:

- even lategame, the devil isn't that bad. If you play things like lavamancer or goblin guide, chances are the removal they use on him is a removal they don't use on another creature. What happen in a burn deck that play creatures, is that usually lategame he stick or remain a burn 4 spell, not bad. In a burn deck with him as the only creature, he's obviously going to be much worse.
- drawing 2 or 3 in your starting hand is the nuts. Something like 2xdevil, 1xgoblin guide mean you have something like 10 damage by turn 2 dealt by creatures. If they don't play a sweeper T3 they're dead.
- comparing this to Vise was too harsh. This is much better on any turn that isn't T1. And it's comparable T1.

Also, i was thinking that Stromkirk Noble is probably one of the best 1-drop right now for red. It can't be blocked by Noble Hierarch, Mom, KotR, Snapcaster, Pre and post flip delver, veteran explorer, grim lavamancer. Basically only Goyf, SFM and Ooze can block him regularly. Goose wouldn't want to block him early on.

[ScatmanX]

Maybe a Green splash in Goblins for 2/3 pieces of Descendant's Path?
If goblins needed that we'd use Lead the Stampede.
Sure it's a nice card, but goblin is not lacking neither C.A. or ways to cheat a guy tnto the battlefield.
That said, who knows...

[SpikeyMikey]

The UW planeswalker's +1 is "Target player mills 30 cards," clearly.

EDIT: I think the thought process here is usually, "I'm taking an extra turn for 1U, which is like Time Walk" ==> "Time Walk is part of the Power Nine" ==> "The Power Nine are broken" ==> "Therefore, taking an extra turn for 1U is broken." In the example you quoted, it's merely good: Ignithas_ gets an Explore and an extra use out of his two-mana planeswalker, which is fine, but not anywhere close to being back-breakingly broken. People are really overvaluing extra turns in the abstract here.

There's this deck out there called RUG Delver. Its primary gameplan is to drop 1 mana 3 power threats and then using Stifle, Wasteland and Daze to effectively "Time Walk" opponents until they can get them to burn range. It already runs 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponders. You don't think this deck would benefit from the addition of 3-4 Temporal Mastery?

Temporal Mastery isn't broken the way that say, Flash, is broken. It's not an "I win" button. But I'm sure you're well aware of how good it is to be on the play in this format. The additional tempo is huge, no matter what you're playing. This negates that tempo if you're on the draw and doubles it if you're on the play. It's an incredibly strong card and it will be heavily played.

[boneclub24]

This Devil is fuggin awesome. Time to dredge up RDW.

[Aggro_zombies]

There's this deck out there called RUG Delver. Its primary gameplan is to drop 1 mana 3 power threats and then using Stifle, Wasteland and Daze to effectively "Time Walk" opponents until they can get them to burn range. It already runs 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponders. You don't think this deck would benefit from the addition of 3-4 Temporal Mastery?

Temporal Mastery isn't broken the way that say, Flash, is broken. It's not an "I win" button. But I'm sure you're well aware of how good it is to be on the play in this format. The additional tempo is huge, no matter what you're playing. This negates that tempo if you're on the draw and doubles it if you're on the play. It's an incredibly strong card and it will be heavily played.
People are trying to stick this card into anything with Islands and Brainstorm in it. Look at the example Ignithas_ posted: it involves Brainstorm, planeswalkers, and opponents scooping for no reason. That's not RUG Tempo at all.

[menace13]

Temporal Mastery isn't broken the way that say, Flash, is broken. It's not an "I win" button. But I'm sure you're well aware of how good it is to be on the play in this format. The additional tempo is huge, no matter what you're playing. This negates that tempo if you're on the draw and doubles it if you're on the play. It's an incredibly strong card and it will be heavily played.

I was so used to posts stating that extra turns aren't good, that I wanted to believe them. It was easy for me at least to view the card as dumb. If someone had told me that I could play 4 Time Walks in a deck but only cast it during my draw step, I would play them without question. Extra turns for 2mana is something I want to be doing regardless if my board has 2 or 3 lands only, most of the time it will be to set up Jace.

There is going to be a lot of turn 4 Jace while the opponent is stuck on turn 2.

[MaximumC]

If goblins needed that we'd use Lead the Stampede.
Sure it's a nice card, but goblin is not lacking neither C.A. or ways to cheat a guy tnto the battlefield.
That said, who knows...

I think this is the wrong angle on the card. What you really want is to be using it as a psuedo Tinker / Oath. Something like this:

Combo (18)
4 Mutavault
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Show and Tell
4 Descendant's Path
3 Nest Invader

Search (12)
4 Lim Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
1 Personal Tutor

Permission (12)
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Flusterstorm
2 Daze

Removal (2)
2 Echoing Truth

Land (16)
7 Blue fetchlands
4 Tropical Island
4 Island
1 Forest

Your gameplan would be to resolve Mutavault / Nest Invader and Descendant's Path. Once Emrakul is on top, he pops out for the win. You've got Show and Tell as a backup plan in case things go awry.

This probably isn't the most perfect shell for this enchantment, but it gets the idea across. Given all the topdeck manipulation you want to use, maybe you also want to sneak Temporal Mastery in there, too...

[dontbiteitholmes]

OMG Vexing Devil....
http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/images/1279082592656.jpg

[TsumiBand]

To be fair, the card disadvantage angle needs to be explored a lot more with Temporal Mastery. I mean I get it, okay, we're going to be playing with Top/Brainstorm/Jace/Preordain/other topdeck tutors, but it's like a lot of people are pointing out; if you're playing Temporal Mastery that early to 'power out Jace', you may as well be playing Explore.

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/28a/d3b/4be/resized/creepy-willy-wonka-meme-generator-you-took-two-extra-turns-and-didn-t-win-the-game-yes-tell-me-more-about-this-tempo-you-speak-of-e226c5.jpg

Really, truly, I see the appeal of getting Jace into play before your opponent plays their third land, but you're going to be throwing away a ton of opportunity setting up the bomb just to have Jace sitting on an open board. That's not tempo, especially when the opponent is herp derping their own SFM/Batterskull stuff that you don't have the card advantage to really deal with anymore. That's how tempo loses to Burn.dec. Just sayin.

I'm so on the fence about Miracle, but it's like any other tech, someone please sleeve the shit up before you yammer on about how it's going to eat all the fromat.

[five]

I agree, though I don't think it looks like a Magic card.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129942&d=1334138694

That art just gave me the chills...

[Koby]

That art just gave me the chills...

I am reminded of this card, but with more CG and crappy collaging. Nielsen should probably just stick to doing commissioned alters. This is like a guru Oath of Druids :cry:
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/lg/200.jpg

[SpikeyMikey]

People are trying to stick this card into anything with Islands and Brainstorm in it. Look at the example Ignithas_ posted: it involves Brainstorm, planeswalkers, and opponents scooping for no reason. That's not RUG Tempo at all.

Yes, but every time a good card comes out, people suggest all sorts of terrible ways to use it that involve perfect sequences of draws on your part and an opponent who durdles the whole game. The truth is, Time Walking in Legacy is less useful than Time Walking in Vintage. Your turns aren't as broken and most importantly, you don't have access to the massive amounts of mana early that you do in a format with moxen (real moxen). However, it's still really good. Buying a turn to beat someone again with a pair of Insectile Aberrations is definitely going to increase your chance of winning. It's not going to seal the deal by itself. But Brainstorm doesn't win games by itself either and we all agree that Brainstorm is very powerful.

[Vacrix]

Okay, I'll bite: gg why?
Yeah it wouldn't be GG necessarily. It was purely speculative at UW and I didn't even mention what the + or - abilities did anyway so who could know. Likely it would be something like

Birdman UW
Planeswalker
+2 Look at the top 4 cards of your library and put them back in any order.
-1 Shuffle your Library. Then draw a card.
-10 You get an emblem that says "Whenever the opponent draws a card, you may also draw a card."
4

Who knows? meh It wouldn't be OP if it were printed at UW with abilities like that, though they work well together.


As for this Devil... HOLY FUCKING SHIT. Its awesome. FUCK mono-red burn, Hanni's list just found a new friend. R for 4/3 or 4 damage is exactly what the deck needs. I anticipate that WUR Quickdraw could be a deck to beat with access to a 4/3 for R, a 4/5 for W, a 3/2 flying for U, and a 2/2 Haste for R. Not to mention Lavamancer.

Proclamation of Rebirth anyone?


Also, is this not the most insane powercreep we've seen in a long time? Its BASICALLY R for 4 damage in the early game that cannot be played as a reach spell in the mid-late game when your opponent will have an answer for it.

[TsumiBand]

Yeah it wouldn't be GG necessarily. It was purely speculative at UW and I didn't even mention what the + or - abilities did anyway so who could know. Likely it would be something like

Birdman UW
Planeswalker
+2 Look at the top 4 cards of your library and put them back in any order.
-1 Shuffle your Library. Then draw a card.
-10 You get an emblem that says "Whenever the opponent draws a card, you may also draw a card."
4

Who knows? meh It wouldn't be OP if it were printed at UW with abilities like that, though they work well together.


As for this Devil... HOLY FUCKING SHIT. Its awesome. FUCK mono-red burn, Hanni's list just found a new friend. R for 4/3 or 4 damage is exactly what the deck needs. I anticipate that WUR Quickdraw could be a deck to beat with access to a 4/3 for R, a 4/5 for W, a 3/2 flying for U, and a 2/2 Haste for R. Not to mention Lavamancer.

Proclamation of Rebirth anyone?


Also, is this not the most insane powercreep we've seen in a long time? Its BASICALLY R for 4 damage in the early game that cannot be played as a reach spell in the mid-late game when your opponent will have an answer for it.

A 2 mana Planeswalker that goes to 6 on the first turn? Fuck that. Free Impulse is still free, and between the usual bevy of fetchlands and draw spells/tutor spells, no.

I'm liking this Proclamation of Rebirth idea though... hmmm

[Barook]

For what it's worth, the devil also works kinda well with Ranger of Eos.

[Nihil Credo]

To be fair, the card disadvantage angle needs to be explored a lot more with Temporal Mastery. I mean I get it, okay, we're going to be playing with Top/Brainstorm/Jace/Preordain/other topdeck tutors, but it's like a lot of people are pointing out; if you're playing Temporal Mastery that early to 'power out Jace', you may as well be playing Explore.

Really, truly, I see the appeal of getting Jace into play before your opponent plays their third land, but you're going to be throwing away a ton of opportunity setting up the bomb just to have Jace sitting on an open board. That's not tempo, especially when the opponent is herp derping their own SFM/Batterskull stuff that you don't have the card advantage to really deal with anymore. That's how tempo loses to Burn.dec. Just sayin.I hope you do understand that Time Walk is an Explore that not only cycles but also literally never costs more than zero mana (and quite often a lot less)?

The real drawback of Temporal Mastery consists of those games where you get stuck with a 7cc card in hand and without a Brainstorm effect or at least a FoW to pitch it. But actually resolving Temporal Mastery is never bad. The worst case scenario, if you have no land drops, no attacks, no planeswalker, and no use for your leftover mana, is that you just cycled a card for free.

A Time Walk effect will not cost you either tempo or card advantage (barring a Smokestack on the field or crap like that).

[baghdadbob]

You are wrong here. BUG control usually does not pressure the life total, but wants to make sure creatures are dead. Best options for this are deed/Perish/damnation. Killing Wave gives the opponents a choice and is not playable in legacy.

You could be right sometimes it would be more effective to just play damnation than this card. I still really like it and am going to try it out just to see.

[Vacrix]

For what it's worth, the devil also works kinda well with Ranger of Eos.
Holy shit you're right. Maybe we'll see a new Zoo variant emerge. Honestly this card is so good that I think it will make a lot more decks playable and Burn will fall out of favor. This card is so huge that people are sure to adjust at least their sideboards to combat the coming conflagration.. which means Burn is gonna be hated out FAST cause its linear and chooses not to play another color.

[MaximumC]

I was gonna join the "Its just like Browbeat" club, but upon more reflection, I think this Devil is better than that. Browbeat gives them the choice of taking damage now or letting you draw cards and spend mana which may result in damage later. Devil gives them the choice between damage now or damage later with no additional resource investment. So while the opponent will always choose the least painful option, the difference between the choices is much smaller than for Browbeat.

[troopatroop]

The Devil is good imo. They're usually just gonna take 4, which is fine, and a 4/3 for 1 is amazing!


Man... a 4/3 creature for R? Don't we kinda HAVE to play that guy? maybe only 3? I'm kinda shocked...

[Vacrix]

That makes me think that the card is going to be better in decks other than Burn. Say, for example, the opponent has a number of ways to interact with you. You cast it, turn 1, they say ok it resolves. Then they kill it next turn. Playing Mono-red, you have no answers. Playing WUR Quickdraw, you can Daze their kill spell and then swing for 4, and follow up that swing with potentially more on the next turn. In UR Delver you can FoW their removal spell, etc. Burn is probably the least effective place for it (though it obviously makes the deck better) because the opponent has a choice of how to interact with it.

[MaximumC]

That makes me think that the card is going to be better in decks other than Burn. Say, for example, the opponent has a number of ways to interact with you. You cast it, turn 1, they say ok it resolves. Then they kill it next turn. Playing Mono-red, you have no answers. Playing WUR Quickdraw, you can Daze their kill spell and then swing for 4, and follow up that swing with potentially more on the next turn. In UR Delver you can FoW their removal spell, etc. Burn is probably the least effective place for it (though it obviously makes the deck better) because the opponent has a choice of how to interact with it.

What tempo decks really want to be casting a Lightning Bolt to the dome on turn 1, though? Seems like the burn in those decks is used primarily as removal early, and to finish off the opponent later.

[Vacrix]

UR Delver isn't really a tempo deck as much as its a Burn deck. It plays Fireblast... Its really just Burn with countermagic. CounterBurn?

[Basara]

That makes me think that the card is going to be better in decks other than Burn. Say, for example, the opponent has a number of ways to interact with you. You cast it, turn 1, they say ok it resolves. Then they kill it next turn. Playing Mono-red, you have no answers. Playing WUR Quickdraw, you can Daze their kill spell and then swing for 4, and follow up that swing with potentially more on the next turn. In UR Delver you can FoW their removal spell, etc. Burn is probably the least effective place for it (though it obviously makes the deck better) because the opponent has a choice of how to interact with it.

LOL? , seriously as a burn player , i dont mind about the 4/3 body , for me this devil is one-sided flame rift for R, this devil is better than figure at least , he will be replaced inmediately in most burn builds... im just thinking about reckless charge... is that card bad?
By the way i love avacyn restored , only 2 red cards spoiled , and both are just FUCKING AMAZING!!..

[caiomarcos]

A Time Walk effect will not cost you either tempo or card advantage (barring a Smokestack on the field or crap like that).

That.
I'm really impressed that many people couldn't figure that out yet.

[Tammit67]

That.
I'm really impressed that many people couldn't figure that out yet.

The personal tutor BS will cost you the card. And having miracle stalled in your hand is why we don't like it.

[Gheizen64]

That makes me think that the card is going to be better in decks other than Burn. Say, for example, the opponent has a number of ways to interact with you. You cast it, turn 1, they say ok it resolves. Then they kill it next turn. Playing Mono-red, you have no answers. Playing WUR Quickdraw, you can Daze their kill spell and then swing for 4, and follow up that swing with potentially more on the next turn. In UR Delver you can FoW their removal spell, etc. Burn is probably the least effective place for it (though it obviously makes the deck better) because the opponent has a choice of how to interact with it.

I see no reason to play this if not in a deck with a LOT of reach. And a lot of creatures too. So basically Burn! and UR Burn and not anything else. If you're not playing 4 bolt, 4 chain lightning and 4 Fireblast you shouldn't be playing the devil imho.

He's usually a better lava spike that T3 and later can be situationally much worse. I think he will see play in burn just because of the possibility of playing 1 or 2 early on and blowing the opponent out of the game just like that. As i said already, T1 devil, T2 devil + goblin guide is crack.

[DragoFireheart]

I think I might per-order these.

[dontbiteitholmes]

This set seems to be full of possible Legacy cards so far. So much so that really good cards that normally would have shaken everyone up are barely being discussed. Sigarda? Angel of Jubilation? All very potentially could see play in Legacy.

When I was saying Devil was sweet I was 100% thinking Standard, I don't know if he has what it takes to see Legacy play (he might though). I'm just glad I won't have to throw out my RDW standard deck since I barely have time to play and I don't feel like starting from scratch every time a new set comes out. Now it looks like RDW will have enough gas to carry me through to Ravnica block at least.

Edit- reading cards is tech.

[Malakai]

I can't think of anything that beats this:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Goblin Guide
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Temporal Mastery
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

[Vacrix]

LOL? , seriously as a burn player , i dont mind about the 4/3 body , for me this devil is one-sided flame rift for R, this devil is better than figure at least , he will be replaced inmediately in most burn builds... im just thinking about reckless charge... is that card bad?
By the way i love avacyn restored , only 2 red cards spoiled , and both are just FUCKING AMAZING!!..
Yes it is when they 2 for 1 your Devil in response to the pump spell. Its obviously a good card in burn, but I'm guessing its going to be more effective in Burn decks that choose to splash like WUR Quickdraw and UR Delver. There they won't get hated out by all the anti-burn cards people are sure to be packing in their sideboard in the days to come. Having access to countermagic makes this card deadly. In burn, its just a better burn spell.

[baghdadbob]

The Devil is good imo. They're usually just gonna take 4, which is fine, and a 4/3 for 1 is amazing!


Man... a 4/3 creature for R? Don't we kinda HAVE to play that guy? maybe only 3? I'm kinda shocked...

This is exactly what I was thinking. I mean all green decks play 'goyf with the reasoning of him being a 4/5 or 5/6 for 2. I can't think of a reason why burn wouldn't want 4 of these suckers main deck. I would also be very interested to this guy in conjunction with U/R delver. Seems good.

[Vacrix]

Not necessarily. Sometimes dropping a creature won't be nearly as good as direct damage. The fact that the opponent gets to choose means.. if you have spot removal, let them have the creature. If you can take the damage without putting yourself within reach range, take the damage. That means countermagic becomes so fucking important because you can then protect your dude from removal when they let you drop it thinking they have an answer.

Thats what I mean about its application to UR Delver vs. Burn. Its fucking great in Burn don't get me wrong. I think its going to be even better in UR builds. I mean they already have Goblin Guide and Delver.

[Rizso]

Vexing Devil is super sweet against planeswalkers :D

[Koby]

Vexing Devil is super sweet against planeswalkers :D

Erm.. how? (Jace -bounce, Elspeth - token chump, Liliana - sac, etc)

[Piceli89]

Time to sleeve up Counterbalance again. It may be a good chance for it to shine, after all this time having been mediocre and unplayable because of Maverick (which is likely to be pretty set down or even pushed apart if UR.crazyness becomes popular).

[dahcmai]

I think it's more time to sleeve up Chalice of the Void. I think people forgot what that card did anymore.

[The Big Ragu]

I'm impressed by Vexing Devil. Very impressed.

[Tao]

I like Vexing Devil. It has an upside to the generic 3 to the head spell (being 4 to the head) and a downside (bad topdeck from some point on). It seems like an extremely fair card that will make games against Burn more interesting if iBurn decks end up playing it.

[Kich867]

Not necessarily. Sometimes dropping a creature won't be nearly as good as direct damage. The fact that the opponent gets to choose means.. if you have spot removal, let them have the creature. If you can take the damage without putting yourself within reach range, take the damage. That means countermagic becomes so fucking important because you can then protect your dude from removal when they let you drop it thinking they have an answer.

Thats what I mean about its application to UR Delver vs. Burn. Its fucking great in Burn don't get me wrong. I think its going to be even better in UR builds. I mean they already have Goblin Guide and Delver.

This line of argument isn't valid. You're comparing two scenarios that won't occur given all things being equal.

The idea that dropping a creature vs burn makes the implication that you're playing a creature over playing a burn, this isn't happening.

You're replacing a creature with a creature. So arguments need to strictly be a creature to creature comparison. The idea of "Well you'd rather have the burn damage" makes the implication that top decking him instead of lava spike might not be as good--but how can that possibly happen when he's not replacing lava spike? They're being run concurrently.

That's no different from saying, "Well if you replace Tarmogoyf with Vexing Demon, then when you top deck him instead of a Force it's clearly not as good." The demon wouldn't be taking the spot of a counterspell, just like it's not taking the spot of a burn, so being concerned that drawing it over something it's not replacing isn't logical. When you replace one land for another land, and you top deck that land, obviously you'd rather it be a lightning bolt, but the land didn't replace a lightning bolt, so there's no comparison to be drawn.

So the real question is, when you top deck a creature--would you rather have Keldon Marauder or Hellspark Elemental... or would you rather have Vexing Devil, who quite frankly shits on both of those cards.

If you top deck him looking for a burn, you would have top decked one of those two creatures in burn, and you wouldn't have that burn anyways...

[keys]

Vexing Devil might turn out to be decent in sligh/RDW, but it's hardly broken. It succumbs to the Browbeat problem (i.e. giving your opponent choices). In practice, Vexing Devil will deal 4 damage and die 50% of the time (usually in the first few turns). The other 50% of the time, your opponent will have lethal the next turn and it will be irrelevant, or your opponent will have a blocker such as 4/5 Goyf or 5/5 Knight, or your opponent will just bolt/StP it. Rarely will your opponent be in a position where both options aren't manageable.

[Koby]

Vexing Devil might turn out to be decent in sligh/RDW, but it's hardly broken. It succumbs to the Browbeat problem (i.e. giving your opponent choices). In practice, Vexing Devil will deal 4 damage and die 50% of the time (usually in the first few turns). The other 50% of the time, your opponent will have lethal the next turn and it will be irrelevant, or your opponent will have a blocker such as 4/5 Goyf or 5/5 Knight, or your opponent will just bolt/StP it. Rarely will your opponent be in a position where both options aren't manageable.

I am looking forward to countering Vexing Devil for :1: with COP:Red. :laugh:

[Gheizen64]

This is exactly what I was thinking. I mean all green decks play 'goyf with the reasoning of him being a 4/5 or 5/6 for 2. I can't think of a reason why burn wouldn't want 4 of these suckers main deck. I would also be very interested to this guy in conjunction with U/R delver. Seems good.

If Goyf had:

Every player may pay 4 life to destroy this

Card would be bad.

This isn't a creature. How hard is to understand that this is a card that's strictly worse than:

R
Deal 4 to the dome

Strictly worse. No decent player will ever make this deal more than 4. If they see u run islands, they'll take 4. The only time where they won't take 4 is when they're at 4 or less or they have the win next turn.

[Rizso]

Playing a vexing Devil when an opponent got a planeswalker out will make him not make it deal damage to him even when having high life. Everyone should be fine trading creature removal for creatures its just how magic works. Not much you can do but trade for other cards.

Like 1dropp zoo could easly play arround with the devil and a couple of Proclamation of Rebirth. Will not take much before pop / fireblast will be lethal.

[Mr. Safety]

I look forward to proxying Vexing Devil in my Kird Ape slots in my current zoo build. I think it deserves to be tested out at the very least. I think it will have good application in Cat Sligh/fast zoo builds.

[baghdadbob]

I look forward to proxying Vexing Devil in my Kird Ape slots in my current zoo build. I think it deserves to be tested out at the very least. I think it will have good application in Cat Sligh/fast zoo builds.

I hadn't even thought about adding it to zoo/sligh builds. I am also very interested to see what it does replacing either kird ape or goblin guide. Good call Safety!

[boneclub24]

I hadn't even thought about adding it to zoo/sligh builds. I am also very interested to see what it does replacing either kird ape or goblin guide. Good call Safety!

No way this will replace Goblin Guide is any sort of aggressive deck.

[Kich867]

If Goyf had:

Every player may pay 4 life to destroy this

Card would be bad.

This isn't a creature. How hard is to understand that this is a card that's strictly worse than:

R
Deal 4 to the dome

Strictly worse. No decent player will ever make this deal more than 4. If they see u run islands, they'll take 4. The only time where they won't take 4 is when they're at 4 or less or they have the win next turn.

If the deck that you put that hypothetical goyf in had something like 28-30 main deck burn spells. Then yes. Yes, absolutely, it would be sweet if they ate 4 damage to remove that creature. By all means, that sounds fantastic. That puts someone ~5 bolts from death if they haven't taken much extra damage. Except that goyf would be worse than this creature, because it doesn't do it for one. I'm all for 10 damage by turn 2, it makes killing someone turn 3 that much easier.

The card will never do more than 4 damage. It will do 4 damage a lot though. So does Goblin Guide, more realistically Goblin Guide only ever does 2 damage (any situation in which goblin guide can do 4 damage, this card can do 4 damage as well with no drawback. Even guide might let them dig past land to removal spells).

And that's ok... Because 4 damage for 1 mana in Burn or sligh decks is still fucking awesome. Can we at least agree on that? I mean why do you think Hanni's list runs Steppe Lynx? Because it's a 4/5 for 1. And you can kill Steppe Lynx with bolt just as easily, the cards are comparable. Running them concurrently would be bonkers.

[Basara]

If the deck that you put that hypothetical goyf in had something like 28-30 main deck burn spells. Then yes. Yes, absolutely, it would be sweet if they ate 4 damage to remove that creature. By all means, that sounds fantastic. That puts someone ~5 bolts from death if they haven't taken much extra damage. Except that goyf would be worse than this creature, because it doesn't do it for one. I'm all for 10 damage by turn 2, it makes killing someone turn 3 that much easier.

The card will never do more than 4 damage. It will do 4 damage a lot though. So does Goblin Guide, more realistically Goblin Guide only ever does 2 damage (any situation in which goblin guide can do 4 damage, this card can do 4 damage as well with no drawback. Even guide might let them dig past land to removal spells).

And that's ok... Because 4 damage for 1 mana in Burn or sligh decks is still fucking awesome. Can we at least agree on that? I mean why do you think Hanni's list runs Steppe Lynx? Because it's a 4/5 for 1. And you can kill Steppe Lynx with bolt just as easily, the cards are comparable. Running them concurrently would be bonkers.
i absolutely agree , 4 damage for R , its awesome in any aburn build

[matunos]

If Goyf had:

Every player may pay 4 life to destroy this

Card would be bad.

This isn't a creature. How hard is to understand that this is a card that's strictly worse than:

R
Deal 4 to the dome

Strictly worse. No decent player will ever make this deal more than 4. If they see u run islands, they'll take 4. The only time where they won't take 4 is when they're at 4 or less or they have the win next turn.

I don't understand... 4 damage for R isn't a good deal?

I think what you're trying to say is that the option lets the opponent choose which they think is better for them. If they can remove or otherwise thwart the devil on the ground, they'll let him stay, otherwise they'll take 4. A Kird Ape, on the other hand, must be answered with removal or obstacles, or he will keep swinging.

Fair enough, but there has to be a drawback to a 4/3 one drop. Even Goblin Guide can be more of a drawback than a benefit, especially with cards like Brainstorm and SDT.

[matunos]

Erm.. how? (Jace -bounce, Elspeth - token chump, Liliana - sac, etc)

If you're forced to Jace-bounce to keep him off the table every turn, then Jace is going to die anyway. Unless you have some sort of miracle draw or something. ;-)

[Bardo]

Don't know if anyone's commented on this, but the basic lands in this set are gorgeous.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/avacynrestored/cig#

Edit - Then click "Other."

[baghdadbob]

I think you may have copied the wrong link sir. :confused: But I did find them. This island is particularly amazing...

- I don't see any clean way to link them -- any link I can find just dumps you into the white cards. - Bardo

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/avr/0qyzr8rl67_en.jpg

The swamps are also very nice!

[GGoober]

Devil is the coolest card in this set and the coolest card applied to Legacy (since he narrowly fits into aggressive burn-style deck and has the potential to fit into Zoo where his purpose serves the redundancy slots of mana efficient damage-dealing spell/creature).

IMO unless they spoil something crazy, I put my bets that Devil is the card that impacts Legacy in this set more than anything else (and yes, I'm on the train that the new Time Walk isn't as broken as most people would think. I might be wrong since I was wrong on Batterskull :P)

[Hanni]

If people start playing R/U/w Blue Sligh (instead of Mono Red Burn), it's going to be DTB easily. It was already top tier before... but now it's just rediculous.

If the opponent lets me resolve Devil on turn 1 because they have an StP, what do they do when I drop double Delvers on turn 2? If the opponent takes 4 damage instead... fuck yes, I just did 4 damage for R.

[Vacrix]

This line of argument isn't valid. You're comparing two scenarios that won't occur given all things being equal.

The idea that dropping a creature vs burn makes the implication that you're playing a creature over playing a burn, this isn't happening.

You're replacing a creature with a creature. So arguments need to strictly be a creature to creature comparison. The idea of "Well you'd rather have the burn damage" makes the implication that top decking him instead of lava spike might not be as good--but how can that possibly happen when he's not replacing lava spike? They're being run concurrently.

That's no different from saying, "Well if you replace Tarmogoyf with Vexing Demon, then when you top deck him instead of a Force it's clearly not as good." The demon wouldn't be taking the spot of a counterspell, just like it's not taking the spot of a burn, so being concerned that drawing it over something it's not replacing isn't logical. When you replace one land for another land, and you top deck that land, obviously you'd rather it be a lightning bolt, but the land didn't replace a lightning bolt, so there's no comparison to be drawn.

So the real question is, when you top deck a creature--would you rather have Keldon Marauder or Hellspark Elemental... or would you rather have Vexing Devil, who quite frankly shits on both of those cards.

If you top deck him looking for a burn, you would have top decked one of those two creatures in burn, and you wouldn't have that burn anyways...
Granted, I worded what I said poorly... but I don't see how my argument is invalid. My point was that Vexing Devil will be better suited to a Burn deck that splashes rather than a traditional mono-red list. Regardless of what you cut for what, the fact that URx Burn variants can play even Daze as a 4'of gives you better chances of using this card effectively than in the traditional mono-red lists.

I'm referring to the following scenarios...

VEXING DEVIL IN MONORED BURN:
Option 1:
Your opponent has an answer to the creature and lets you have it. They kill the creature.
Option 2:
The opponent has no answer to the creature and it would rack up 8 or more damage if it hit play, so they take 4.

VEXING DEVIL IN URx BURN:
Option 1:
Your opponent has an answer to the creature and lets you have it. They try to kill the creature. You respond and protect it from the removal spell with countermagic.
Option 2:
The opponent has no answers to the creature. They take 4.

In either list, option 2 remains relatively constant; however, option 1 is far more effective in a list that can protect the creature with countermagic. This should be more than apparant by the fact that the rest of Burn's creatures don't really stick around for long, or can eventually be ignored because the rest of your creatures are so big (Goyf, KoTR, etc.). Vexing Devil is a huge fucking target and the 3 toughness means its going to eat a lot of Lightning Bolts and Chain Lightnings.

Kich I wasn't referring to deck design per se so I'm not really sure where you're coming from. I'm not comparing him to another creature or a reach spell. I'm merely stating that the opponent actually gets to choose which one he is when it resolves, regardless of the fact that it is, in fact a creature by type; the point is it has a built in snuff out attached to it so to call it purely a creature is really half of the truth. You can't possibly know whether it will be a creature during the game, or R for 4 damage. It won't necessarily be replacing creatures in every deck that plays it I assure you.

[joemauer]

Everyone is right about the new devil having the browbeat drawback.

Think about it for just a moment:

Most Combo decks won't care about the irrelevant 4/3.

Control and aggro control decks will pick whichever they need. I have bolt or STP then I will pick creature. I have a grip of counterspells and/or discard then I will try the burn.

Most straight aggro decks will pick the creature because they either have bigger creatures or ways to kill creatures.

The creatures burn plays now have haste or does damage when they come into play bypassing Creature Removal. The new devil does not do either.

[Hanni]

You don't need countermagic to protect Devil for him to be good. The point of running a density of 16 super powerful 1 drop creatures is to be able to overload the opponent's removal. If the Devil eats a removal spell, that's no different than if a Delver eats a removal spell. Eventually, you're going to get one to stick, and then go to town. In this case, if the Devil sticks and they pay 4 life instead, that's still a fantastic value for the mana spent.

EDIT: The Browbeat argument is also dumb. Paying 2R for 5 damage or 2R to draw three cards is decent, but still expensive. Neither effect is overpowered for the cost. Devil costs R for either a 4/3, or 4 damage. Regardless if the opponent picks the best option for the situation, both of those choices are still overpowered for their cost.

[joemauer]

If people start playing R/U/w Blue Sligh (instead of Mono Red Burn), it's going to be DTB easily. It was already top tier before... but now it's just rediculous.

If the opponent lets me resolve Devil on turn 1 because they have an StP, what do they do when I drop double Delvers on turn 2? If the opponent takes 4 damage instead... fuck yes, I just did 4 damage for R.

Firespout GG

[Hanni]

Firespout GG

I lol'd.

[UnsungHero]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129971&d=1334203275

Heres the new walker.

[majikal]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129971&d=1334203275

Well, Earthcraft is never getting unbanned now.

[Stall_19]

The art on that planeswalker is outstanding.

[UnsungHero]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129972&d=1334203275

And one for the EDH nerds.

[UnsungHero]

The art on that planeswalker is outstanding.

The art in this SET is amazing. Loving all of it so far. I wonder if Tamiyo will have a sweet emblem token with some cool art?

[Cire]

That is the most historical ultimate in the world....

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Actually, on reflection, Demonic Taskmaster might be viable in a disruption deck that only needs/wants to land a single threat anyway.

[Aggro_zombies]

Loving Tamiyo. Likely not Legacy-playable, but she seems super fun if you get her to ultimate.

[baghdadbob]

Yeah I am really loving the art work from this new set. Very EPIC feeling, just makes you stare in awe. :smile:

[Phoenix Ignition]

If people start playing R/U/w Blue Sligh (instead of Mono Red Burn), it's going to be DTB easily. It was already top tier before... but now it's just rediculous.

If the opponent lets me resolve Devil on turn 1 because they have an StP, what do they do when I drop double Delvers on turn 2? If the opponent takes 4 damage instead... fuck yes, I just did 4 damage for R.

They're going to cast their 3 Swords to Plowshares. Or maybe their 3 (in a row, obviously, because this hypothetical already has you with 3 of your 4-ofs) time walks since they found their brainstorm. Now it's turn 6 for them and 3 for you.

Yay stupid hypotheticals that involve you hitting 3 of your 4!

[Nihil Credo]

That is the most historical ultimate in the world....
Karn would have a word with you.

I kinda like this Planeswalker, she looks very well balanced. She's got the essentials right to be an interesting card worth including - a self-protection ability and a strong ultimate - while the second ability provides some gameplay variance, being potentially dead or potentially gamewinning. I would also appreciate that the second ability encourages a style of deck, except that she comes in the same block as Lingering Souls so bleh.

All of the above is for Standard, of course. Girl's trade fodder for Legacy.

[Vacrix]

You don't need countermagic to protect Devil for him to be good. The point of running a density of 16 super powerful 1 drop creatures is to be able to overload the opponent's removal. If the Devil eats a removal spell, that's no different than if a Delver eats a removal spell. Eventually, you're going to get one to stick, and then go to town. In this case, if the Devil sticks and they pay 4 life instead, that's still a fantastic value for the mana spent.
Not saying you need countermagic for him to be good. Just that I'm guessing that he'll be better in decks that can run a light countermagic suite like UR Delver because it makes one of the two options that much better.

On the other hand, he will be run in Burn, where he will be good, but not quite as good as in UR Delver. Burn's creatures die really quickly. Hell Spark is around just long enough to say hi. Keldon Marauder stays at the party until they bust out the cake and then he's gone. You don't use removal spells on these creatures often. Devil, however, will soak up your opponent's removal, effectively turning it on. So in Burn, Devil is not going to be a sick reach spell against decks playing removal; its going to be the prime target of a Bolt or an STP. If played in UR Delver though, they play multiple threats that stay around for a while and they have countermagic to protect them from removal. That means if they let Devil resolve, its far more deadly. Either way if they don't want it in play it deals 4. The point is once its in play, how good is it if it eats a removal spell? WotC was careful to put its toughness at 3. A countermagic ensures that its a far more dangerous card than it is in a mono-red Burn deck.

Surely Devil will be good in Burn. I'm seriously afraid to see it in UR Delver though, especially since that guy can put a savage clock on you if you let it stick. As a storm combo player, this can't be good for us. I hope Avacyn gives us something nice, especially with all the new storm hate flying around. Thalia is heavily played storm hate, maindeck in fact along with Teeg which can get GSZ'd now. That means Maverick has a fairly good chance of having an answer on turn 2 that compels storm combo to do something about.

[The Big Ragu]

Storm players have been getting shafted recently. This is true.

[Vacrix]

Yeah seriously.... WotC is all like, "Hey lets kind of give storm a card since we've been hating so hard on them. OH RND I have an idea! What if we basically reprinted IGG only made it red and gave it flashback to give storm players hope that they can actually race a Delver and a Goblin Guide and then resolve their whole graveyard with an LED? We'll call it Past in Flames."

[Oiolosse]

I hope somebody somewhere Stifles Vexing Devils triggered ability so that they don't have to take the 4. I would laugh so hard.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I kinda like how WotC is starting to fill junk rare slots with potential EDH generals/cards that are more or less unplayable in real constructed formats. As much as it will suck to open Bruna or Gisela at least I can trade them off and have dumbass kids rare draft them and leave the playable cards in the pack.


I hope somebody somewhere Stifles Vexing Devils triggered ability so that they don't have to take the 4. I would laugh so hard.

I had someone Mental Misstep my Raven's Crime and pay 2 life, anything is possible.

[Whippoorwill]

I like the new 'Walker. My plan is to experiement with it in a control shell with 1x LED and Grapeshot/Tendrils for the kill condition. I'm sure it'll be bad, but it'll be fun!

[Vacrix]

Yeah the new Walker is shit in Legacy. Its ultimate isn't nearly as good as Jace's who will get it around the same time given that he has multiple abilities that allow you to secure a win in a variety of scenarios.

[majikal]

I like the new 'Walker. My plan is to experiement with it in a control shell with 1x LED and Grapeshot/Tendrils for the kill condition. I'm sure it'll be bad, but it'll be fun!
LOL, you can Intuition all of them straight to your hand!

[JDK]

I hope somebody somewhere Stifles Vexing Devils triggered ability so that they don't have to take the 4. I would laugh so hard.

This is going to be the new "Stifle your Standstill-Trigger" joke.

BOARD ALL THE TORPOR ORBS!

[Elminister]

I can't think of a single scenario where getting an additional turn would be bad. Temporal Mastery recycles itself, you get to drop another land, get another attack step, get additional counters on your planeswalker, get to drop equipment, equip it and attack with SFM. In the meantime, your opponent is twiddling fingers and lagging more and more behind.

There's absolutely no drawback to taking an additional turn. None. And chaining more than 1 of these will be ridiculous.

This card WILL get banned. Possibly in every relevant format, so better save your money.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I can't think of a single scenario where getting an additional turn would be bad. Temporal Mastery recycles itself, you get to drop another land, get another attack step, get additional counters on your planeswalker, get to drop equipment, equip it and attack with SFM. In the meantime, your opponent is twiddling fingers and lagging more and more behind.

There's absolutely no drawback to taking an additional turn. None. And chaining more than 1 of these will be ridiculous.

This card WILL get banned. Possibly in every relevant format, so better save your money.

I can't think of a single scenario where a 3/3 flyer is bad. Why haven't they banned Razor Hippogriff yet?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Hint: Resources are finite and opportunity costs exist.

[Barook]

Another blue-based walker? :rolleyes:

And I doubt that she'll be playable. 5 mana is too much, especially for so-so effects, even with a strong ultimate.

The only planeswalker that see actual play either

a) cost 3 mana (and Jace gets overshadowed by his brother JMS) or
b) cost 4 mana and have good abilities (e.g. JMS, Elspeth).

All other walkers are borderline playable at best.

Meanwhile, still waiting for a playable red walker. Is it really THAT hard to design a playable one?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Planeswalkers are stupid. I'd rather they focus the abilities closer together so that they resemble an actual card and not a shopping list of desired abilities, and avoid at all costs making a Planeswalker able to both protect itself and be a kill condition.

This makes it hard to make one playable in Legacy. Eh. Don't care. I'd rather they stop ruining Cube first. Besides, tighten up the concepts and it'd be easier to make the 2/3cc stuff. Liliana of the Veil was actually a pretty good example. Basically only good in Pox.

[bruizar]

I can't think of a single scenario where a 3/3 flyer is bad. Why haven't they banned Razor Hippogriff yet?

Read this response and had a wtf-moment, until i saw it was written by thesource's biggest troll.

Way to compare time walk with a flying war mammoth.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Read this response and had a wtf-moment, until i saw it was written by thesource's biggest troll.

Way to compare time walk with a flying war mammoth.

I know I hate comparisons too. Aaaargh they just make me so angry.

[bruizar]

Hint: Resources are finite and opportunity costs exist.

Please tell me what the opportunity cost of an extra turn is. Dont respond with 'you could have run threats instead', because by that logic people would be running 200 card decks in competitive magic, filled with threats.

Also, exactly how are you losing resources when you cast a time walk, other then smokestack scenarios? Resources are finite, yes. The last time i naturally decked myself in competitive , non-dredge magic must be 1997or something. That and cumulative upkeep are literally the only situations where your crappy logic applies. The millions of interactions that benefit from time walk surely outweigh your crappy rebuttal against time walk.

The storm mechanic, while storming, also doesnt really benefit from an extra turn. But even in storm based decks, having an extra turn is good because it allows you to set up. Miracle walk can only beplayed for its miracle cost when you draw it as the first card, this means you cast it and decide not to storm this turn but the next turn. The only time its bad is when you are drawing more than 1 card a turn and the first card isnt miracle walk. That said, you replied to someone that stated an extra turn has no downside, which is still true barring the above mentioned exceptions.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

In an interesting note, one of my earliest memories of deckbuilding was when I tried to build a banding deck with Ornithopters and Woolly Mammoths and my brother and I got into a big argument over whether it could work and he complained that it was stupid to have elephants riding on ornithopters. Then we found out banding doesn't work that way, except now I guess it does or something.

This wasn't really relevant, but given your posting history I figured you would relate to that.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Please tell me what the opportunity cost of two extra turns is.

By itself? Nothing. As soon as they print a zero mana artifact that sacs to give you an extra turn, you should run four of them in every deck.


Dont respond with 'you could have run threats instead', because by that logic people would be running 200 card decks in competitive magic, filled with threats.

I would love you to try and diagram what you think this logical argument is that leads you to such conclusions.


Also, exactly how are you losing resources when you cast a time stretch, other then smokestack scenarios? Resources are finite, yes. The last time i naturally decked myself in competitive , non-dredge magic must be 1997or something. That and cumulative upkeep are literally the only situations where your crappy logic applies. The millions of interactions that benefit from time stretch surely outweigh your crappy rebuttal against time stretch

If you say something is crappy enough times maybe it will turn into an actual argument, and people will all say, "Wow, look at that bruizar, he sure is contributing actual arguments to the discussion."

PS I have subtly edited your post in my reply, see if you can spot the difference. Think of it as a game, although not like Magic or something you're terrible at.

[Hopo]

There's absolutely no drawback to taking an additional turn. None.

Of course not, but there are drawbacks in playing this particular card. You need to play basically uncastable cards that are only good when on top of your deck. You will take extra mulligans because of that. Also, the power of Time Walk comes from being able to use it when it actually matters and gives you benefit of breaking the symmetry, like when you're racing or looking for answers. You lose all that when you HAVE to cast it when you draw it, no matter if you have board position to take advantage of or not.

Miracle mechanic kind of explains why they eventually wanted to ban Mystical Tutor. Tutor would make these really unfair, unlike Brainstorm, which just makes them playable in general.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Hey bruizar I wrote this in the other thread, but since you're still saying silly things I thought maybe you hadn't read it. If there's any thing in there that confuses you I'll be happy to simplify it. I'm just trying to help the conversation along so you can maybe improve your understanding of the game a bit.



I mean I don't know what Time Walk does in Vintage, but do people play Cube? Because I don't think you'll find a lot of people who Cube regularly that will list Time Walk as a particularly strong first pick. I mean it's good, it's a fine card and if you can support blue reasonably you'll often run it, maybe even as your sole splash once in a while, but it's not worth bending over backwards for the way, say, a card like Ancestral Recall or Skullclamp is.

The important thing to remember about Time Walk is that it's only really good when you're able to do something else meaningful the turn you cast Time Walk. Otherwise it's just a free cycle. That turn when you're already committing two mana has to mean something else.

Now a free cycle isn't terrible. Time Walk makes up for the fact that it's not always amazing by always being, at worst, a wash, usually a free Explore at least. This is part of why it's so deservedly banned in Legacy, which I think much more resembles the power level of Cube than it does Vintage (the one oddity being the existence of combo, but in these archetypes Temporal Mastery seems quite bad for reasons already gone over.)

The problem, from the perspective of people complaining about how OP even a conditional Time Walk is, is that the conditional aspect of this card strips away the "always decent" aspect of the card. Because it requires some setup to be reasonably or reliably cast, Temporal Mastery will often be a dead card in your opening grip or your next two draws. That's 9 out of the maybe 11 cards you can rely on getting to see in an average Legacy game, and having one or more tossed aside just reduces your chances of living to see more. And for this risk you get a card that might do nothing still but be an Explore while you sit on no board or staring at an untapped army of blockers on the opponent's side.

So while Temporal Mastery seems to people to be a very cheap card, in effect I expect it to play more often, if it's to be powerful, as a more mid-rangey card and for that, no more powerful than, say, a lot of planeswalkers or equipment. Rather less, I imagine. Keep in mind that this effect sees absolutely no play in Legacy at five mana, and in fact Time Warp has barely ever even breached Standard play when it's been legal.

You also have the problem that whereas Time Walk lets you time it to best effect, when your opponent's pants are down, a naturally drawn Temporal Mastery has no such benefit.

In short, extra turns are useful but have a finite value. Perhaps for want of the mechanic showing up more often (for what it's worth, I thought I made a compelling argument that it should be a red mechanic during the GDSII, but God forbid Wizards take a shred of pie away from blue, even if it makes no sense flavor wise...), people are unfamiliar with what that value is, but given the conditions the card imposes I think there's scant reason for all the pants-shitting that seems to be going on atm. Perhaps anyone who's ever had a High Tide opponent tap out to cast and resolve a Meditate can verify this.

Or in shorter:

Sometimes Sinkhole or fuck, Shadow of Doubt is a two mana Time Walk. Doesn't mean those cards are busted or even good.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

First set in a while I'm considering buying a couple boxes of (missed out on Worldwake, kicked myself a bit). I'm seeing some Legacy playables (vexing devil, temporal mastery, crater hoof behemoth (in elves), demonic taskmaster begs for some black stompy strategies, griselbrand might be good enough for reanimator, sigarda is a fucking SICK GSZ target, etc).

Even the cards I'm not personally interested in seem like good "trade fodder fares" for the most part, and it seems like the set will have some impact on Standard (which I don't play so I'll just trade that shit). Anyone else think this set might be a pretty good investment in terms of gaining value?

[bruizar]

Of course not, but there are drawbacks in playing this particular card. You need to play basically uncastable cards that are only good when on top of your deck. You will take extra mulligans because of that. Also, the power of Time Walk comes from being able to use it when it actually matters and gives you benefit of breaking the symmetry, like when you're racing or looking for answers. You lose all that when you HAVE to cast it when you draw it, no matter if you have board position to take advantage of or not.

Miracle mechanic kind of explains why they eventually wanted to ban Mystical Tutor. Tutor would make these really unfair, unlike Brainstorm, which just makes them playable in general.

I'd suggest running a hypergeometric distribution to calculate the odds of drawing a miracle walk and having it in hour opening hand. That will reveal what the optimal number of miraclE walks is. Your argument about having to play it direcy when you draw it is pretty much silly. Early game it cycles, qbsolutely 0 loss heree (accelerste into a relevant board/land drops), later, it becomes randomly broken allowing you to do things like bounce 2 creatures With jace and attack for lethalz

[JDK]

Meanwhile, still waiting for a playable red walker. Is it really THAT hard to design a playable one?

Koth would like to have a word with you.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Koth is legit worse than 2/3 of the Chandras.

[264505]

First set in a while I'm considering buying a couple boxes of (missed out on Worldwake, kicked myself a bit). I'm seeing some Legacy playables (vexing devil, temporal mastery, crater hoof behemoth (in elves), demonic taskmaster begs for some black stompy strategies, griselbrand might be good enough for reanimator, sigarda is a fucking SICK GSZ target, etc).

Even the cards I'm not personally interested in seem like good "trade fodder fares" for the most part, and it seems like the set will have some impact on Standard (which I don't play so I'll just trade that shit). Anyone else think this set might be a pretty good investment in terms of gaining value?
They have yet to spoil the second walker in the set, so it potentially could be. The sets that tend to keep their value have either a really high % of money mythics (see New Phyrexia) or have a number of really playable rares and uncommons that you can open and trade.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Koth is legit worse than 2/3 of the Chandras.

In what? Cube? Koth is at least playable in Standard which is much more than anyone can say of any other red PW.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

In what? Cube? Koth is at least playable in Standard which is much more than anyone can say of any other red PW.

No, in Legacy. I mean I wouldn't play any of them really, but I guess it's a difference of speed. Koth is pretty much only good on offense, which is kind of a joke in Legacy because he costs four mana. The two cheaper Chandras aren't fantastic but would win you some games in mid-rangey decks with red due to their superior utility.

[Hopo]

I'd suggest running a hypergeometric distribution to calculate the odds of drawing a miracle walk and having it in hour opening hand. That will reveal what the optimal number of miraclE walks is. Your argument about having to play it direcy when you draw it is pretty much silly. Early game it cycles, qbsolutely 0 loss heree (accelerste into a relevant board/land drops), later, it becomes randomly broken allowing you to do things like bounce 2 creatures With jace and attack for lethalz

What's so silly about that? There's a huge difference in playing Time walk when you have 2 lands on board comparing to having a Batterskull or Jace on board. That's where real Time Walk shines. You can use it when you really need it. What I tried to say is that casting Time Walk as soon as you have the chance is usually (if ever) not optimal.
Also, regarding statistics, by the time you have 2 lands in play there's basically a 50% chance (49,85% to be precise) that you have already naturally drawn a copy if you play it as a 4-of. On the draw it's even higher. Of course, for example in blade control 4 is most likely a wrong number.

I'm sure some Jace-oriented control deck will find a way to play a few copies, but that's quite different to falling of the sky or ruining the format or something like that. There could even be Turbofogish deck emerging, but the format has so many tools to handle these kind of cards that it's not even funny.

[dontbiteitholmes]

No, in Legacy. I mean I wouldn't play any of them really, but I guess it's a difference of speed. Koth is pretty much only good on offense, which is kind of a joke in Legacy because he costs four mana. The two cheaper Chandras aren't fantastic but would win you some games in mid-rangey decks with red due to their superior utility.

I wouldn't be caught dead playing any red PW in Legacy, but at least Koth is good in one constructed format as opposed to zero.

[ivanpei]

What's so silly about that? There's a huge difference in playing Time walk when you have 2 lands on board comparing to having a Batterskull or Jace on board. That's where real Time Walk shines. You can use it when you really need it. What I tried to say is that casting Time Walk as soon as you have the chance is usually (if ever) not optimal.
Also, regarding statistics, by the time you have 2 lands in play there's basically a 50% chance (49,85% to be precise) that you have already naturally drawn a copy if you play it as a 4-of. On the draw it's even higher. Of course, for example in blade control 4 is most likely a wrong number.

I'm sure some Jace-oriented control deck will find a way to play a few copies, but that's quite different to falling of the sky or ruining the format or something like that. There could even be Turbofogish deck emerging, but the format has so many tools to handle these kind of cards that it's not even funny.

Why all the hate? I'm sure 3-4 would be a right number, depending on the deck. All it takes is 1 brainstorm or jace to put it back on top if in your opening hand. Or you can just pitch it to force. If naturally drawn, I'd gladly play it as there is no downside to casting it. The only issue I see with the card is its opportunity cost. What do you cut? Are you going to be threat light? Do you have to shift to a more aggressive plan to take advantage of it?

But if you naturally draw/set it up correctly in the midgane, it is absolutely bonkers. That itself should warrant playing it as a 3/4 of. Gut feel tells me 3 is a good number because having 2 in your opening hand is terrible ala mox diamond.

[Hopo]

The only issue I see with the card is its opportunity cost. What do you cut? Are you going to be threat light? Do you have to shift to a more aggressive plan to take advantage of it? .

I find those things quite relevant and taxing. To me, it's not clear at all why the card should be super good. I see that it could be under some circumstances, but peoples' comments here remind me of MTGSalvation and it hurts.

[bruizar]

Hey bruizar I wrote this in the other thread, but since you're still saying silly things I thought maybe you hadn't read it. If there's any thing in there that confuses you I'll be happy to simplify it. I'm just trying to help the conversation along so you can maybe improve your understanding of the game a bit.

I hadn't read your response. I can tell you what time walk does.

It: allows you to drop more mana when you are being
Tied down by spheres and dont havr h.recall.

Allows you to tinker for blightsteel and win before passin the turn.

Allows you to reset your mana pool leading to more degenerate plays

Allows you to oath for runescarred demon picking timewalk, and doing that a vouple of times so that your opponent never geta another turn before you kill him.

Among other things.

Cube isnt really a format i'd compare to legacy.

I think you really underestimate the impact of having 1 mana more than your opponent, which is what miracle walk does at a bare minimum. Things like punishing fire work very well alongside miracle walk. It also works very well with counterspell. You can cast your stuff, time walk, then pass with countermana up. The thing is, it may be a midgame bomb, but its also a free cantrip that accelerates your mana in the early game and the few circumstances that it ends up in your hand, you can still set it up to accelerate you.

Im on my iphone now so i cant really do any complex math here but:
4 miracle walk = 40 pc chance of opening with one
4 miracle wall/ 4 brainstorm = 16 pc chance of drawing one
That means, in one of four mathes you open with walk and without brainstorm. Im not even includig force of will or sdt in the equation but as you can see there are all sorts of moderating effects from other cards that reduce thr impact of the miracleblowout.

Lets estimate that you would have to Be forced to mulligan 2 x in a tournament, the question is i that drawback outweighs the advantage of 4 time walks. (you are not forced to play immediately, since you are not forced to play brainstorm immediately).

My verdict is: yes, given enough moderators, miracle walk is straight up broken.

Also, miracle walk with lingering sould is pretty awesome.

[Gui]

Why all the hate? I'm sure 3-4 would be a right number, depending on the deck. All it takes is 1 brainstorm or jace to put it back on top if in your opening hand. Or you can just pitch it to force. If naturally drawn, I'd gladly play it as there is no downside to casting it. The only issue I see with the card is its opportunity cost. What do you cut? Are you going to be threat light? Do you have to shift to a more aggressive plan to take advantage of it?

But if you naturally draw/set it up correctly in the midgane, it is absolutely bonkers. That itself should warrant playing it as a 3/4 of. Gut feel tells me 3 is a good number because having 2 in your opening hand is terrible ala mox diamond.

Considering the statistics I posted some pages ago, I fully agree with this. Listen to Ivanpei, he's a man of vision. ^^

[JDK]

Koth often finds his way into Imperial Painter. I haven't seen Chandra in any Legacy deck...she's even horrible in Standard.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

I hadn't read your response. I can tell you what time walk does.

It: allows you to drop more mana when you are being
Tied down by spheres and dont havr h.recall.

Allows you to tinker for blightsteel and win before passin the turn.

Allows you to reset your mana pool leading to more degenerate plays

Allows you to oath for runescarred demon picking timewalk, and doing that a vouple of times so that your opponent never geta another turn before you kill him.

Among other things.

Cube isnt really a format i'd compare to legacy.

I think you really underestimate the impact of having 1 mana more than your opponent, which is what miracle walk does at a bare minimum. Things like punishing fire work very well alongside miracle walk. It also works very well with counterspell. You can cast your stuff, time walk, then pass with countermana up. The thing is, it may be a midgame bomb, but its also a free cantrip that accelerates your mana in the early game and the few circumstances that it ends up in your hand, you can still set it up to accelerate you.

Im on my iphone now so i cant really do any complex math here but:
4 miracle walk = 40 pc chance of opening with one
4 miracle wall/ 4 brainstorm = 16 pc chance of drawing one
That means, in one of four mathes you open with walk and without brainstorm. Im not even includig force of will or sdt in the equation but as you can see there are all sorts of moderating effects from other cards that reduce thr impact of the miracleblowout.

Lets estimate that you would have to Be forced to mulligan 2 x in a tournament, the question is i that drawback outweighs the advantage of 4 time walks. (you are not forced to play immediately, since you are not forced to play brainstorm immediately).

My verdict is: yes, given enough moderators, miracle walk is straight up broken.

Also, miracle walk with lingering sould is pretty awesome.

Have you actually played any games with it, because I have and it is not broken by any means of the word. You have to be ahead to get any real value from it and by then it is just a win more card. One game I managed to take 3 extra turns and still lost. The conditions on when you can actually cast it are to restrictive for it to be broken in legacy.

[Kich867]

Have you actually played any games with it, because I have and it is not broken by any means of the word. You have to be ahead to get any real value from it and by then it is just a win more card. One game I managed to take 3 extra turns and still lost. The conditions on when you can actually cast it are to restrictive for it to be broken in legacy.

I can't think of a remotely good deck in legacy that can take 3 extra turns in the mid game and still lose. It wouldn't have even mattered what cards you drew in that case...

[xfxf]

How do people use Time Walk in Vintage? Do something broken, cast it, hit the killing blow in the extra turn. Or, do something half broken, generate card advantage, take an extra turn and get really ahead with the card advantage. Usually these require accelerants (mox, lotus), huge draw spells (recall, gush) or broken shit like Yawgmoth's Will. The power of Time Walk is boosted by the rest of the deck and stupid things you can do in a turn.

In Legacy, if you build the deck around Time Walk 2.0 and allocate slots to get past the restriction you are already cutting down the cards which will give you the edge after a Time Walk. Without accelerants and bombs like Tinker, Will etc. I doubt that Time Walk 2.0 will break the format.

However I wonder if you can brew an effective Blue MUD list with Top, Brainstorm, Forgemaster, Blightsteel and Time Walk 2.0...

[TooCloseToTheSun]

I can't think of a remotely good deck in legacy that can take 3 extra turns in the mid game and still lose. It wouldn't have even mattered what cards you drew in that case...

It was Adam Barnello's RUG list from his article on channelfireball.com. That game the first two extra turns I took my board state was OK but my opponent killed one of my creatures before I could attack and the extra turn was meaningless. The last one, I was dying to a Thrun on his next attack so I just took the extra turn to dig and didn't find anything.

[baghdadbob]

I don't know Ajani Vengeant is pretty good right? And he is sort of red.

[(nameless one)]

How do people use Time Walk in Vintage? Do something broken, cast it, hit the killing blow in the extra turn. Or, do something half broken, generate card advantage, take an extra turn and get really ahead with the card advantage. Usually these require accelerants (mox, lotus), huge draw spells (recall, gush) or broken shit like Yawgmoth's Will. The power of Time Walk is boosted by the rest of the deck and stupid things you can do in a turn.

In Legacy, if you build the deck around Time Walk 2.0 and allocate slots to get past the restriction you are already cutting down the cards which will give you the edge after a Time Walk. Without accelerants and bombs like Tinker, Will etc. I doubt that Time Walk 2.0 will break the format.

However I wonder if you can brew an effective Blue MUD list with Top, Brainstorm, Forgemaster, Blightsteel and Time Walk 2.0...

I don't think Blue MUD would be able to facilitate it. The blue versions usually runs Chalice of the Void for protection instead of Welder (granted, they can run Spellskite in its place). And Chalice always gets one counter. Running Brainstorm just to run Temporal Mastery would be inefficient. Beside, MUD lists already have their version of Time Walk in the form of Lightning Greaves/Thousand-Year Elixir/Hall of the Bandit Lord. Not to mention Trinisphere/Tangle Wire/Spheres can create a pseudo-Time Walk under the right circumstances.

[rufus]

...
In Legacy, if you build the deck around Time Walk 2.0 and allocate slots to get past the restriction you are already cutting down the cards which will give you the edge after a Time Walk. Without accelerants and bombs like Tinker, Will etc. I doubt that Time Walk 2.0 will break the format.

However I wonder if you can brew an effective Blue MUD list with Top, Brainstorm, Forgemaster, Blightsteel and Time Walk 2.0...

Except for some strange stuff like Serra Avenger, cards that aren't in play (or suspended) don't really have any positive interaction with Time Walk or its friends. To get something out of it, you really need some kind of a board presence. In Vintage, I would expect, it's all about plopping down a bunch of mana sources that can then be untapped and reused - a bit like a Reset[/card] that cantrips, and that you can cast on your own turn.

An issue here is that the Miracle mechanics interact relatively poorly with most of the card advantage engines people like to use - more or less by design. Because you only get one chance to Miracle per turn, a deck with heavy hand filling power will probably tend to choke on them.



Based on that, I'd be looking at decks that don't draw heavily, and tend to have a significant board presence to work well with Time Walk 2.0. More turns also means more chances to miracle. Since miracle will work on the opponent's turn too - light card draw works well with it. Finally, there are a couple of cards that can allow you to recover some value from a 'dead drawn' miracle card -- [cards]Brainstorm,Chrome Mox and, for Time Walk 2.0 Force of Will come to mind - though there are also some more obscure possibilities like Scroll Rack.

This suggests that the decks best-positioned to take advantage of Time Walk 2.0 will be ones that play 2 or 3 of Brainstorm, FoW, and Chrome Mox, and like to establish a board position.

[Kich867]

It was Adam Barnello's RUG list from his article on channelfireball.com. That game the first two extra turns I took my board state was OK but my opponent killed one of my creatures before I could attack and the extra turn was meaningless. The last one, I was dying to a Thrun on his next attack so I just took the extra turn to dig and didn't find anything.

These are situations I see happening with the card pretty frequently against a cautious player. From the sound of it, most definitely anything else you would have drawn wouldn't have won. What did you replace for TM's?

[The Big Ragu]

Descendents Path looks pretty good for tribal decks.

[CorpT]

Descendents Path looks pretty good for tribal decks.

Merfolk and Goblins want to play a 3 drop enchantment so that next turn they have a 30% chance of putting a 2 drop into play?

[The Big Ragu]

Merfolk and Goblins want to play a 3 drop enchantment so that next turn they have a 30% chance of putting a 2 drop into play?

I was thinking more so along the lines of casual tribal decks. Elves, for example. Guess I should have specified that.

[Barook]

New miracle card:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129982&d=1334247412

Would probably be best on a deathtouch creature, a huge fatty to utilize the trample or, considering of the cheap removal, a creature with protection/hexproof.

[baghdadbob]

Does beserk stompy want this? I'm really not sure.

[Oiolosse]

the one green alternate cost is tempting but Berserk Stompy and similar don't run any libarary manipulation and instead rely on redundancy. This is pretty useless.

[rufus]

New miracle card:
...
Would probably be best on a deathtouch creature, a huge fatty to utilize the trample or, considering of the cheap removal, a creature with protection/hexproof.

I had hoped for a Miracle creature. This looks unplayable, though probably not so bad in limited...

[SpikeyMikey]

Except for some strange stuff like Serra Avenger, cards that aren't in play (or suspended) don't really have any positive interaction with Time Walk or its friends. To get something out of it, you really need some kind of a board presence. In Vintage, I would expect, it's all about plopping down a bunch of mana sources that can then be untapped and reused - a bit like a Reset[/card] that cantrips, and that you can cast on your own turn.

An issue here is that the Miracle mechanics interact relatively poorly with most of the card advantage engines people like to use - more or less by design. Because you only get one chance to Miracle per turn, a deck with heavy hand filling power will probably tend to choke on them.



Based on that, I'd be looking at decks that don't draw heavily, and tend to have a significant board presence to work well with Time Walk 2.0. More turns also means more chances to miracle. Since miracle will work on the opponent's turn too - light card draw works well with it. Finally, there are a couple of cards that can allow you to recover some value from a 'dead drawn' miracle card -- [cards]Brainstorm,Chrome Mox and, for Time Walk 2.0 Force of Will come to mind - though there are also some more obscure possibilities like Scroll Rack.

This suggests that the decks best-positioned to take advantage of Time Walk 2.0 will be ones that play 2 or 3 of Brainstorm, FoW, and Chrome Mox, and like to establish a board position.

What Legacy decks *do* draw heavily? Seriously, name one draw spell that's played on any sort of regular basis? Standstill and Ancestral Visions see marginal play, but they're not exactly common. The rest is deck manipulation. Thought Scour sees some play, but it's primarily Ponder, Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top. Those are cards you use to set it up. Decks that run a bit more to the controlling side still don't really run draw. I play BUG and I run Gifts Ungiven, but not a single actual "draw" spell. Just fixing cantrips.

On this whole concept of "win more" cards. This is probably the dumbest concept that people outside of card advantage theory. The idea that because Time Walk is at its best when you already have board presence it's not worth running is so illogical that I can't understand how anyone spouts it with a straight face. If I've got board inevitability in the form of a 5 turn clock and I can play something that speeds that clock up, I'm absolutely going to do it. Every turn I deny my opponent before he's dead is one less turn for him to draw into something that turns the game around. You people understand that, otherwise you wouldn't run disruption in your Delver decks, you'd just drop a turn 1 Delver and try and race. So how you can have a disconnect between the idea that tempo matters and the idea that taking an extra turn is the best tempo there is is beyond me. That's like saying that Ancestral Recall is a win more card in control mirrors because if you can resolve Ancestral Recall, you were going to win anyway. You know what? Maybe, sometimes, that's right. I don't care. I'm going to cast it anyway, because it gives me that many more tools to deal with my opponent's bullshit. And I'm going to run it because sometimes it's going to save my ass.

[bruizar]

Don't forget green has mirri's guile and sylvan library.

also, what spikey mikey said

[Barook]

Does beserk stompy want this? I'm really not sure.
Berserk Stompy lacks the manipulation.

U/G Infect Stompy with Brainstorm and counter protection might be interesting, though. It does enable turn 2 kills with a T1 creature + another pump spell.

[I am the brainwasher]

I had hoped for a Miracle creature. This looks unplayable, though probably not so bad in limited...

Not so bad? Not so bad?
Christ this is one heck of a card in limited!

[Koby]

On the topic of Win More - there is no such thing. You haven't won until your opponent is dead.

[Infinitium]

Conditional green sweeper? For one mana? Granted it doesn't play nice with Mongoose or Delver of Secrets (so we're generally talking turn 4 boardrecking), doesn't nab all utility creatures (Mom, Lavamancer and Stoneforger can all tap out of it) and is only playable in aggressive decks but still. Don't really see a deck for it though.

[The Big Ragu]

On the topic of Win More - there is no such thing. You haven't won until your opponent is dead.

There are such things as win more cards, and people should avoid playing them at all costs.

[TsumiBand]

Berserk Stompy lacks the manipulation.

U/G Infect Stompy with Brainstorm and counter protection might be interesting, though. It does enable turn 2 kills with a T1 creature + another pump spell.

Infect Stompy already pulls T2 / T3 wins without conditional pump spells, though. This seems like a really good example of a time when you don't want to sink a bunch of deck stacking jank into a Miracle card - a 'not combat trick' that is also a Lure, in a deck where you want to force through as many poison counters as you're able to. If you just happen to have this in your opening 7 and no way to really stack it correctly, it's real dumb and probably worse than, say, Invigorate.

[DragoFireheart]

Of course not, but there are drawbacks in playing this particular card. You need to play basically uncastable cards that are only good when on top of your deck. You will take extra mulligans because of that. Also, the power of Time Walk comes from being able to use it when it actually matters and gives you benefit of breaking the symmetry, like when you're racing or looking for answers. You lose all that when you HAVE to cast it when you draw it, no matter if you have board position to take advantage of or not.



You can cast Time Walk 2.0 on your opponents turn. In some ways it's better than Time Walk: it's conditional, but you can cast it at instant speed with minor setup of either BS or Top.

[majikal]

I can't think of a single scenario where a 3/3 flyer is bad. Why haven't they banned Razor Hippogriff yet?
Razor Hippogriff is obviously broken. You can bring Darksteel Forge back to your hand and gain nine life! That's almost ten!

[Kuma]

I think by "win more" cards, people mean cards that are good when you're ahead on board position and bad when you're behind. That doesn't sound like the kind of cards I want in my decks.

[Koby]

I think by "win more" cards, people mean cards that are good when you're ahead on board position and bad when you're behind. That doesn't sound like the kind of cards I want in my decks.

Hrmm ya I think I didn't make it clear enough. My bad - playing cards that are by nature "win more" don't belong in decks. The strategy within a game, using an optimal list, however is to use every resource you have to make sure you don't lose a game.

Example: your opponent is dead on board - Wasteland their 4th land;
Kill a blocker with your last removal spell to get them within lethal
etc

By this definition, Temporal Mastery seems like a decent inclusion for SOME decks, not all. In Lands, it might just be a dead card 80% of the time. In a Planeswalker control list, it might be exceptional. The card is hard to define its power in a vacuum.

[bruizar]

I think by "win more" cards, people mean cards that are good when you're ahead on board position and bad when you're behind. That doesn't sound like the kind of cards I want in my decks.

Time Walk is not bad when you are behind. At its worst, it's neutral.

[rufus]

What Legacy decks *do* draw heavily? Seriously, name one draw spell that's played on any sort of regular basis? ...

Dark Confidant and Ad Nauseam come to mind. (I did write 'hand filling' rather than drawing.)



On this whole concept of "win more" cards. This is probably the dumbest concept that people outside of card advantage theory. The idea that because Time Walk is at its best when you already have board presence it's not worth running is so illogical that I can't understand how anyone spouts it with a straight face. ....

As someone more eloquent than me wrote, they really ought to be called lose-more cards. A 'win-more' card is a card that is unlikely to turn a losing situation into a winning or neutral one. (For example, something like Celestial Convergence is never going to help you come from behind.) Time Walk 2.0 is only going to do that if it's a dead draw - typically because miracle is canceled.

[DragoFireheart]

Temporal Mastery is already sold out on SCGs.

lol, regardless of what you think of the card, that's still hilarious.


Dark Confidant and Ad Nauseam come to mind. (I did write 'hand filling' rather than drawing.)



Storm decks are not going to use Ad Nauseam and Temporal Mastery.

[morgan_coke]

What Legacy decks *do* draw heavily? Seriously, name one draw spell that's played on any sort of regular basis? Standstill and Ancestral Visions see marginal play, but they're not exactly common. The rest is deck manipulation. Thought Scour sees some play, but it's primarily Ponder, Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top. Those are cards you use to set it up. Decks that run a bit more to the controlling side still don't really run draw. I play BUG and I run Gifts Ungiven, but not a single actual "draw" spell. Just fixing cantrips.


Life from the Loam, Thoughtcast, Ad Nauseum, Dredge, Elves, Goblins, Dark Confidant, Horizon Canopy and Stoneforge Mystic would all like to wave their hands around and say hello.

[nedleeds]

Natural Order, Moat and Nether Void all see very little play.


Chains of Mephistopheles
Granger Guildmage
Shadow Guildmage
Curfew
Three Wishes
Land Equilibrium
Mana Vortex
Pongify



... i lied about Pongify.

[DrHealex]

Temporal Mastery is already sold out on SCGs.

lol, regardless of what you think of the card, that's still hilarious.



Sold out is SCG speak for, expect it to be $10 more tomorrow.

[Vacrix]

That just means there are fewer people with enough money to pick up Vexing Devils.

Verrry Nice!

[majikal]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/avr/z1r6slt3wx_en.jpg

I give you... Hellboy!

Does Aggro Loam want this guy?

[Cire]

2 mana PW:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130000&d=1334289725

RR
+1, Draw a card, Discard one at random
-4, Deal damage equal to cards in players hand to that player,
-6, Mass treachery...
<2>

[UnsungHero]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130000&d=1334289725http://

Our next walker.

[morgan_coke]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130000&d=1334289725http://

Our next walker.

sucks. dies to spell snare and blue elemental blast.

[Aggro_zombies]

sucks. dies to spell snare and blue elemental blast.
That's not why it sucks. If its +1 was just, "Draw a card," or even, "Draw a card, then discard a card," it would be much better. But random discard kind of kills it.

[UnsungHero]

This walker is balanced yes, but it almost feels like as if they just made this guy, just to make a walker. It seems, forced. Character and art is pretty cool however.

[majikal]

At worst it's a way to dredge Life From the Loam every turn.

[Leftconsin]

This new 2cc walker does nothing to really effect the game until he ults. Until then, hes just kinda there slowly putting cards in your yard. I'm not excited about a very slow Burning Inquiry. I'm not excited about Sudden Impact even if it costs 2. I'm certainly not excited about Insurrection that my opponent sees coming from five miles away.

[Nihil Credo]

Ouch, count me in as another one who missed the "at random" part of his first ability. There goes almost all temptation to give him a spin.

[Vacrix]

Lol.

Called it again. 2cc Planeswalkers.

Its not particularly OP but it sure as hell looks cool. I think it would be more balanced if its first minus ability was Lightning Bolt for -2.

[TsumiBand]

If he had a proper Looter effect for his +1, it would look a lot better. Seems really assy though. None of those abilities get played anyway, except maybe the ultimate for lulz, but that means you played its weird +1 four times, which is not very good at all. I guess it can get played with Loam, but kind of who gives a shit. Planeswalkers are an interesting exception to the old adage that "it dies to answers" isn't a good reason not to play something, in that planeswalkers are actually set up to be interacted with almost exactly like a player. There are enough ways to take out a 3 loyalty PW on turn 2 that I would be incredibly surprised if it actually did anything worthwhile in a game of Legacy.

[Oiolosse]

Love the art, like the flavor, but it's gonna be horrible in legacy.

It should have said, draw two cards then discard one at random.

It's useless outside of EDH (or Standard, I don't play/follow).

[Aggro_zombies]

I'll give Skrillex Diablo a little bit of credit, though: he certainly has interesting flavor. He feels like red's take on a mind mage: sort of a cross between a master politician and an internet troll. His +1 is the careless acquisition of knowledge, his -4 punishes people who think they know better than him, and his ultimate rallies the rabble to fight for his cause while he slips away, laughing.

[death]

Lol.

Called it again. 2cc Planeswalkers.

Its not particularly OP but it sure as hell looks cool. I think it would be more balanced if its first minus ability was Lightning Bolt for -2.

What's next?

[Vacrix]

The abilities all contradict the card though in Legacy. The opponent has time to empty his hand and play stuff for the first minus ability, and they will obviously attack the Walker before he can do anything with his ult. Its going to be cool in Standard for sure.

[Cire]

Red Mystic Miracle

Bonfire of the Damned XXR
Sorcery
Bonfire of the Damned deals X damage to target player and each creature he or she controls.
Miracle {X}{R} (You may cast this card for its miracle cost when you draw it if it's the first card you drew this turn.)

[menace13]

That thing is terrible. They had a chance here to make burn really annoying and they give a walker that does nothing. Is it really that bad to make one that is good for red.

[Aggro_zombies]

That thing is terrible. They had a chance here to make burn really annoying and they give a walker that does nothing. Is it really that bad to make one that is good for red.
More like red is really that bad as a color, so there's not much you can make a red walker do without making it multicolored.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/avr/z1r6slt3wx_en.jpg

I give you... Hellboy!

Does Aggro Loam want this guy?

Why not? He seems the very butcher of a silk button.

[Oiolosse]

If I had to choose a current deck, maybe some sort of Red Stax? The redundancy doesn't mind being discarded and the taxing effects generally ensure large hand sizes. idk. I have an EDH deck for him and that makes me happy.

Tomiyo or whatever is fun as hell as well. All three are powerful abilites to be sure. I just wish she cost 4. Like 1UUU would be cool. I'm throwing her into UG Stasis, it's my pet deck damnit, it's allowed to have bad cards.

[menace13]

More like red is really that bad as a color, so there's not much you can make a red walker do without making it multicolored.

At least give the damn thing a Shock for :-1 Loyalty or maybe something really saucy like 0: destroy target artifact.

[RJM]

I'll give Skrillex Diablo a little bit of credit, though: he certainly has interesting flavor. He feels like red's take on a mind mage: sort of a cross between a master politician and an internet troll. His +1 is the careless acquisition of knowledge, his -4 punishes people who think they know better than him, and his ultimate rallies the rabble to fight for his cause while he slips away, laughing.

Haha. You made me laugh at this one.


The abilities all contradict the card though in Legacy. The opponent has time to empty his hand and play stuff for the first minus ability, and they will obviously attack the Walker before he can do anything with his ult. Its going to be cool in Standard for sure.

Pretty sure this sucks in Standard too.

They definitely pussed out and could have gone ahead and let him +1 to just do a normal loot for 1. He literally does nothing but play russian roulette with your hand for 2+ turns to get you crappy effects no one plays in competitive magic anyway. And they're the kind of effects that get even worse when telegraphed from a million miles away.

Red is just bad at planeswalking.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Honestly, the new red PW would be half decent if his second 2 abilities at all lined up with his first one. After all, if I loam back 3 lands, its a pretty good chance that his +1 ability is just a straight up draw a card. Unfortunately, you aren't really ramping him up toward anything. At best all he does is stop the opponent from throwing out too many dudes if hes close to ult, which is mediocre even when compared to baby jace

[Aggro_zombies]

Honestly, the new red PW would be half decent if his second 2 abilities at all lined up with his first one. After all, if I loam back 3 lands, its a pretty good chance that his +1 ability is just a straight up draw a card. Unfortunately, you aren't really ramping him up toward anything. At best all he does is stop the opponent from throwing out too many dudes if hes close to ult, which is mediocre even when compared to baby jace
Actually, wouldn't they throw out more dudes and attack him? Skrillex Diablo doesn't exactly defend himself.

[ivanpei]

I dunno, the red walker seems decent. He's like 2 sorcery speed burn spells in a card. Not great but might have some narrow uses. I can imagine playing it in some sort of UR Delver deck that focuses on mana denial and quick dudes plus burn. Skrillex forces opponents to dump their hand aggressively into daze, stifle and wasteland. I'm not sure he's great but he has potential. Dragon stompy could also use him as a fast finisher. Stick a moon effect/trinity and use Skrillex to shoot the shit out of them.

[Vacrix]

I was a little surprised by that actually. Almost every walker has been able to defend himself in some way. Why wouldn't red have some kind of Bolt effect at the very least? His abilities just don't work together at all...


What's next?
I'm guessing that we'll see another playable powercreep creature, maybe in white. We haven't had one since Steppe Lynx if I recall correctly.

[Lemnear]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130000&d=1334289725http://

Our next walker.

Has this guy any other implication than enabling miracle and madness spells?


4 Wooded Foothils
4 Taiga
2. Forest
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
4 Copperline Gorge

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongel
4 Fiery Temper
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Reckless Wurm
4 Tibalt, the fiend-blooded
4. Thunderous Wrath
4. Revenge of the Hunted
4. Faithful Looting
4. Lightning Bolt

[conboy31]

Ouch, count me in as another one who missed the "at random" part of his first ability. There goes almost all temptation to give him a spin.

I did the exact same thing, even reading it twice...

Because of the random clause I think he's DOA for legacy. Too bad, would have liked trying to fit him in various archetypes and shells.

[Rizso]

Its the first 2 mana planeswalker. I dont think 2 mana walker should be so good at defending themself. Its it does looks very strong with with Life from the Loam or with flashback cards. Volt Charge makes its pretty crazy for standard. Red in standard are already using lot of counters on noble, berserkers and shrine. The mana cost makes its quite hard to evaluate it. If able to use the graveyard or discard to an advantech. Sadly its discard at random. The 2 minus abilties are quite powerful when the walker can come out early.

[Sloshthedark]

feels there should be draw 2 cards, discard a card at random ... its pretty under powered even for RR:rolleyes:

[Vacrix]

Thats probably because they were afraid of printing a walker that was too powerful for 2cc.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So how you can have a disconnect between the idea that tempo matters and the idea that taking an extra turn is the best tempo there is is beyond me.

I don't want to wade through every post made in the last day or so, so I'll just settle this as it's at the core of the argument. Everyone seems to acknowledge that seven mana is a lot, and that you need heavy manipulation to reliably and effectively exploit the miracle cost, so the real point of contention seems to be this; the belief that, as SpikeyMikey here says, "taking an extra turn is the best tempo there is."

The flaw with this statement is that it's not remotely true.

For instance, I'm playing Blade Control. I have a Batterskull in hand and a Stoneforge Mystic that just bit the dust. I'm facing down a board with a Knight of the Reliquary and some other dorks, maybe a Mom, maybe a Thalia or piece of equipment. Very common board state in Legacy.

I could drop a Jace here, set up Temporal Mastery and let Jace get killed. I untap, cast Temporal Mastery, and maybe make the next land drop and am able to cast the Batterskull (maybe I was even able to cast Lingering Souls the turn I cast TM, but they're going to sit back anyway because I have to play defense right now.)

Alternately, I could just cast Wrath of God and wipe out their entire current game plan. This is a much larger swing than that that TM provided.

To go even further, a deck like AngelStax can completely lock you out of the game. This is certainly a lot better than merely taking another turn. There's also Counterbalance-Top for that matter.

And even then we're not really touching on the real problem, since the somewhat antiquated ideas of tempo vs card advantage don't really accurately reflect what's going on; what people are really jockeying for in a game of Magic is better described as freedom of action. The player who has the most freedom to take different, relevant actions over the course of the game will generally win. Time Walk itself, barring a Spell Snare, will never really hurt your range of options and may help it significantly. The problem is that Temporal Mastery will often hurt your range of options by being dead in hand, and when you have an unfavorable board position it does little to help get you out of it. Blocking doesn't cause creatures to tap, after all, and merely seeing another card for free isn't itself helping you deal with a lethal board. It's an effect that might push you over the top in tight situations, but is unlikely to dig you out of a hole, which is not a great thing to say about a card that's often just chaff in hand.

[conboy31]

Being able to dig one card deeper every turn plus a natural discard outlet might work out for standard, but I still can't quite picture how it translates to legacy.

[Koby]

Red is just bad at planeswalking.

It's pretty good at burning plains (http://magiccards.info/be/en/153.html) however.


I dunno, the red walker seems decent. He's like 2 sorcery speed burn spells in a card. Not great but might have some narrow uses. I can imagine playing it in some sort of UR Delver deck that focuses on mana denial and quick dudes plus burn. Skrillex forces opponents to dump their hand aggressively into daze, stifle and wasteland. I'm not sure he's great but he has potential. Dragon stompy could also use him as a fast finisher. Stick a moon effect/trinity and use Skrillex to shoot the shit out of them.

Koth does this much faster - +1 (4 dmg) +1 (4 dmg) -5 (ping until dead) while synergizing with Sol-lands and Moons.

[Whippoorwill]

I think the more interesting thing to come from Skrillex being spoiled is this part of the article:

(Part talking about the Sudden Impact ability)


To put it in perspective, Flame Rift is a Legacy staple and deals 4 damage to each player. Getting 4 out of a Tibalt is a pretty good deal, especially when you enjoy the side-benefit of forcing control decks to empty their grips. Of course, Flame Rift is only playable in a certain kind of deck, which is where the "more narrow but more powerful" aspect of Tibalt kicks in. And it's very easy to envision scenarios where you hit much harder than that—particularly if you're helping them out with... hold on a sec, I'm getting a call.

-useless banter-

That card hasn't been spoiled yet?

-useless banter-

...err, so you're absolutely not using any mechanism whatsoever to help your opponents fill up their hands. Nope. Not one. No idea what you're talking about. Where'd you get that silly idea?

It really sounds like we may be getting a Wheel variant based on the above since that's the main way to fill an opponent's hand in red and hitting for 7 is obviously better than Flame Rift's 4. My guess would be:

Miracle Wheel 4RR
Sorcery
Miracle 2R
Wheel of Fortune text

I'd assume Rare since we already have a Mythic Red Miracle.
I think the hypothetical Miracle cost above seems the most balanced since its the actual cost of Wheel. I could potentially see 1R but R seems too overpowered since you can theoretically cast it on turn 2 (1 with SSG) and potentially wreck your opponent if they Wheel into no lands.

[Vacrix]

Thats not out of the ball park in terms of what's balanced... the question is will the print it? When the Suspend Mechanic first appeared the printed Ancestral Visions and Wheel of Fate. Whose to say they won't print Time Walk and Wheel of Fortune? Then again.. wouldn't they print something else? Thats already been done...


EDIT:
I wonder if they will print a Land with Miracle 0. Taps for colorless or something. That or a legendary land that taps for a color.

[Aggro_zombies]

Has this guy any other implication than enabling miracle and madness spells?


4 Wooded Foothils
4 Taiga
2. Forest
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
4 Copperline Gorge

4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongel
4 Fiery Temper
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Reckless Wurm
4 Tibalt, the fiend-blooded
4. Thunderous Wrath
4. Revenge of the Hunted
4. Faithful Looting
4. Lightning Bolt
He doesn't enable miracles. Miracles happen on your draw step or your opponent's turn, since they can only be cast for their miracle costs when they're the first card you've drawn for the turn.

[Vacrix]

If they print a Martyr creature type with Miracle I'm going to laugh my ass off.

[dontbiteitholmes]

That new Planeswalker is absolutely horrid. First off to the people who say they like the art... Why?
Tibalt puts the EMO in demon and his name makes him sound like the prep school wedgie magnet.
How about a PW that is actually playable? His -4 ability could be -2 and I would still probably never want to use it. The only possible deck I could ever see him going in would be something in Standard trying to abuse Burning Vengeance.

Discarding a rando card is complete garbage. Couldn't it at least have said "Draw a card then either discard a card at random or pay 3 life and discard a card of your choice" Barring that could his minus abilities at least not be pure unadulterated ass?

The first 2cmc PW should have been Green something like GG: 1 loyalty +1: You may play an extra land this turn. -1: Search your library for a Forest and put that card into your hand. -5: Exile ~this PW~ and put an */* green Legend token with Trample into play where * = the number of Lands you control.

[Vacrix]

That new Planeswalker is absolutely horrid. First off to the people who say they like the art... Why?
Because it looks like he just set fire to a bunch of Magic cards in his right hand. Ironically, this card is probably among them.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Because it looks like he just set fire to a bunch of Magic cards in his right hand. Ironically, this card is probably among them.

He also looks like Satan about the star in his high school's production of Pirates of the Caribbean.

I could legitimately see this card wheeling in draft.

[The Big Ragu]

Because it looks like he just set fire to a bunch of Magic cards in his right hand. Ironically, this card is probably among them.

Ba dum tish!

Yeah, great art, lousy card. But seeing as how it's the first 2cmc Planeswalker, I can't really fault R&D for being overly cautious.

He seems like a pretty cool guy to hang out with, mind you.

[Gheizen64]

Wow, this card is seriously incredibly bad. The other red cards that have been spoiled all sucks too, a Soulbound dragonbreath creature? A 5 mana creature that threaten when it come into play? A XXR sorcery that basically says "i'm overcosted and not even good anyway"?

Red where art thou :frown:

EDIT: you know what would have make this card good? A +1 that made both player draw and discard 1 at random. All of its abilities are way too narrow.

[Shawon]

Tibalt puts the EMO in demon and his name makes him sound like the prep school wedgie magnet.

The name may have been inspired by a character in Romeo and Juliet, Tybalt.

[DragoFireheart]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130000&d=1334289725http://

Our next walker.

This is the worse walker I have seen. Two turns before I can use his good second ability? Can't defend self? Worthless 1+ ability? Mediocre Ultimate (when compared to other walkers). Also, the art is stupid as hell.

0/10, no brownie for you.

Piece of shit card. I swear, when it's garbage day at WotC, they make red get all the shit.

[SpikeyMikey]

How pissed would you be to get that as your Mythic? Bunch of EDH playables, a chase Legacy miracle card, but no, you rip... Tibalt, the Shit-stain. I'd rather open a pack and see Sorrow's Path or Pale Moon; at least there are people out there that collect those. Who'd want this pile of ass?

[DragoFireheart]

How pissed would you be to get that as your Mythic? Bunch of EDH playables, a chase Legacy miracle card, but no, you rip... Tibalt, the Shit-stain. I'd rather open a pack and see Sorrow's Path or Pale Moon; at least there are people out there that collect those. Who'd want this pile of ass?

This must be WotC way of balancing out the many good cards in this set.

[boneclub24]

This must be WotC way of balancing out the many good cards in this set.

WotC's logic is flawed, then.

[Gheizen64]

This must be WotC way of balancing out the many good cards in this set.

Print good blue cards, bad red cards?

Red is seriously a joke right now, we haven't seen a decent LD spell since what, the original mirrodin? I still remember the day Maro explained that the 2RG LD spell that was printed in ravnica (Destroy target land or artifact, can't be countered) had to be costed 2RG instead of 1RG because else it'd be too oppressing for the format. This isn't even worth a joke.

[DragoFireheart]

WotC's logic is flawed, then.

That's not the only thing.



Print good blue cards, bad red cards?

Red is seriously a joke right now, we haven't seen a decent LD spell since what, the original mirrodin? I still remember the day Maro explained that the 2RG LD spell that was printed in ravnica (Destroy target land or artifact, can't be countered) had to be costed 2RG instead of 1RG because else it'd be too oppressing for the format. This isn't even worth a joke.

Well, they did print Vexing Devil and Thunderous Wrath.

I believe they stopped printing cheap land destruction as it was upsetting players.

[Nihil Credo]

Is Tibalt the first ever planeswalker you wouldn't windmill-slam in draft?

[I am the brainwasher]

Is Tibalt the first ever planeswalker you wouldn't windmill-slam in draft?

Not just only windmill-slamming. Instant Windmill-slam-dunkin' right into the trash can.

[Gheizen64]

That's not the only thing.




Well, they did print Vexing Devil and Thunderous Wrath.

I believe they stopped printing cheap land destruction as it was upsetting players.

Wrath sucks, and Vexing Devil is overrated.

[UnsungHero]

I can see in a draft, last 2 cards, Tibalt or the land?
YES I GOT THE LAND
Looks like you get the Tybalt.
:frown:

Red getting shafted this bad is like, From the Vault: Legends levels of disappointment.

[joven]

This is the worse walker I have seen.

Well, that's because it is the planeswalker with the lowest casting cost you have ever seen.
I think, it had to be bad. A 2cc planeswalker with good abilities would have been totally overpowered.

The "discard at random" part sucks because it makes it nearly impossible to build around it. Nobody wants "random" effects. You can't build on "random".

[boneclub24]

Looter land seems pretty cool, though. Probably doesn't have a home anywhere, but I guess we'll see.

[Tao]

Bonfire of the Damned xxr
Sorcery
Mythic Rare
Bonfire of the Damned deals X damage to target player and each creature he or she controls.
Miracle {X}{R} (You may cast this card for its miracle cost when you draw it if it's the first card you drew this turn.)


EoT Brainstorm, Wrath (but only opponent and his Planeswalker).

[Wereodile]

What's next?

During the Spoiler for the new red walker (over on the mother ship) Zac mentions there will be a mechanic which puts cards into your opponents hand somehow and that would fuel his 2nd ability.

[bruizar]

Without the at random clause, I think it would have been very legacy playable, especially for control decks. You'd just ramp and sculpt hand and occasionally do a lot of damage. Not sure if you could actually steal creatures with it though. Would be pretty damn awesome iif this thing works in sun titan Dredge though.

[rufus]

The :r::r: planeswalker is terribad -- don't worry, the :u::u: one will probably be borken. I find myself wanting to casually play this guy with Library of Leng in some kind of 'random discard' deck.

[Justin]

Not just only windmill-slamming. Instant Windmill-slam-dunkin' right into the trash can.

LOL! I think the other drafters at your table would want to have a word with you if you tried that.

[I am the brainwasher]

LOL! I think the other drafters at your table would want to have a word with you if you tried that.

Propably...cheering me up wearing tricots and shit.
On a more serious note, how awfully good is that Bonfire in Limited pls?

[Richard Cheese]

Who changes the thread titles around here? I want to give you a high five.

[Whippoorwill]

Who changes the thread titles around here? I want to give you a high five.

Seconded. The new one made me laugh when I saw it.

[KevinTrudeau]

Who changes the thread titles around here? I want to give you a high five.

Agreed; they've been very Jim Lahey-esque (a good thing).

[Lemnear]

He doesn't enable miracles. Miracles happen on your draw step or your opponent's turn, since they can only be cast for their miracle costs when they're the first card you've drawn for the turn.

You are absolutely right. Dump my post with all his printsheets and burn them.

[Whippoorwill]

Tibalt up on SCG for preorder now.


A whole $17.49! :laugh:

[kusumoto]

Tibalt up on SCG for preorder now.


A whole $17.49! :laugh:


Seems pricey.

[Koby]

Tibalt up on SCG for preorder now.


A whole $17.49! :laugh:

If Chandra 3.0 is any indication, this guy may settle at $8.

How terribly unexcited I am. And I love bad red cards.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Bonfire of the Damned xxr
Sorcery
Mythic Rare
Bonfire of the Damned deals X damage to target player and each creature he or she controls.
Miracle {X}{R} (You may cast this card for its miracle cost when you draw it if it's the first card you drew this turn.)


EoT Brainstorm, Wrath (but only opponent and his Planeswalker).

This actually seems worth playing. The non-Miracle cost isn't flat-out impossible, and I could see it work in something like an old U/r Landstill shell. Maybe next to Desolate Lighthouse. That card also seems super sweet.

http://i.imgur.com/mKzwt.jpg

[Antonius]

maybe you could play tibalt in GR madness with vengevine? even then you'll just end up wishing he was faithless looting every time you drew him..

desolate lighthouse seems pretty fun.