Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SIMMERING POT OF FECAL MATTER]

[Greenpoe]

Bonfire of the Damned would only be justifiable if you yourself were running some number of creatures (probably Clique and Snapcaster), since otherwise you'd just want Rolling Earthquake or Firespout. That said, Bonfire of the Damned might actually be worth using Personal Tutor for (with Bonfire as a 1-of or 2-of), since getting Plague Wind for a few mana is decent.

[routlaw]

Lighthouse is a cool card. It'll see standard play.

I do like how well measured and balanced all of the cycle of two-color utility lands turned out. Some are a bit off (the G/B one seems a little steep, the R/B one a bit too weak) but for the most part they have been a great way to put spells on lands in a pretty balanced way.

Still have the R/W and G/U ones left to spoil.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I can't imagine Lighthouse not seeing Legacy play, it's a pretty relevant utility land, even before you add in some ways to abuse it.

Then again, people in Legacy have a strong tendency to run Wasteland in any utility land slot, even when it makes no sense with their own strategy.

[Ignithas_]

I can't imagine Lighthouse not seeing Legacy play, it's a pretty relevant utility land, even before you add in some ways to abuse it.

Then again, people in Legacy have a strong tendency to run Wasteland in any utility land slot, even when it makes no sense with their own strategy.
Wasteland always make sence in Legacy. With the greedy manabases in the three color decks and even in some two color decks and the ability to produce mana without tempo loss, it's always a good choice.

[Nihil Credo]

Lighthouse is a useful, well-balanced card and after seven years it finally atones for the awfulness that was Nivix, Aerie of the Firemind.

But I'm not seeing any Legacy deck particularly wanting that one. U/R decks aren't likely to have a lot of room for colourless lands, and U/R/x even less of course, and what sort of list would be more interested in 2UR: Loot than in one or more of the following: Wasteland, Mishra's Factory/Inkmoth Nexus/Mutavault, Rishadan Port, Academy Ruins, Crystal Vein, Kher Keep, Riptide Lab, etc. etc.

[morgan_coke]

I keep looking at the bonfire miracle card and thinking "hey, remember when they printed this a few years ago, called it Lavalanche and nobody cared or played it?"

[rufus]

[Bonfire of the Damned] actually seems worth playing. The non-Miracle cost isn't flat-out impossible, ...

Seems like Rolling Earthquake is usually going to be a better card and doesn't see any play in legacy at all.

[Gammadoom]

Seems like Rolling Earthquake is usually going to be a better card and doesn't see any play in legacy at all.

This thing doesn't blast you in the face as well. At the risk of using a played-out argument and not being taken seriously at all... Dragon Stompy.

[Tao]

Seems like Rolling Earthquake is usually going to be a better card and doesn't see any play in legacy at all.

You can't play "X to all players" effects in a control shell.


I keep looking at the bonfire miracle card and thinking "hey, remember when they printed this a few years ago, called it Lavalanche and nobody cared or played it?"

Thats because it costs 2 colored Mana more. Not even remotely comparable.

Not sure if it makes the cut, but neither of those cards compare to it. I could see it a s 1- or 2-off in a blue deck that plays Red anyway (not RUG though because they won't have enough Mana).

[lordofthepit]

The :r::r: planeswalker is terribad -- don't worry, the :u::u: one will probably be borken. I find myself wanting to casually play this guy with Library of Leng in some kind of 'random discard' deck.

My thoughts exactly. This is their first 2-mana Planeswalker, so they can't afford to be too aggressive with its abilities or they might print an overpowered mistake. After a few tries, they'll print a blue planeswalker with strong abilities. :smile:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Lighthouse is a useful, well-balanced card and after seven years it finally atones for the awfulness that was Nivix, Aerie of the Firemind.

But I'm not seeing any Legacy deck particularly wanting that one. U/R decks aren't likely to have a lot of room for colourless lands, and U/R/x even less of course, and what sort of list would be more interested in 2UR: Loot than in one or more of the following: Wasteland, Mishra's Factory/Inkmoth Nexus/Mutavault, Rishadan Port, Academy Ruins, Crystal Vein, Kher Keep, Riptide Lab, etc. etc.

A midrangey deck. A lot of decks can't really use Wasteland effectively and don't particularly get a lot of use out of a small ground stompers. Port is terrible and I don't even know why you're bringing up Crystal Vein and Kher Keep. Riptide Lab and Academy Ruins are fine if you actually have the cards to support them.

I could see Uwr Blade Control running the card.

[rufus]

You can't play "X to all players" effects in a control shell.

....

Fair enough. Even so, X mana for X damage isn't really something that sees legacy play.

[Ignithas_]

A midrangey deck. A lot of decks can't really use Wasteland effectively and don't particularly get a lot of use out of a small ground stompers. Port is terrible and I don't even know why you're bringing up Crystal Vein and Kher Keep. Riptide Lab and Academy Ruins are fine if you actually have the cards to support them.

I could see Uwr Blade Control running the card.
I can't imagine a deck, where Desolate Lighthouse could be generally better than Wasteland. Wasteland can punish greedy manabases and greedy opening hands. And you can protect more important Lands, that are in your hand. And you can destroy enemy lands, that would become a pain like Maze and Gradle.

[DragoFireheart]

This actually seems worth playing. The non-Miracle cost isn't flat-out impossible, and I could see it work in something like an old U/r Landstill shell. Maybe next to Desolate Lighthouse. That card also seems super sweet.

http://i.imgur.com/mKzwt.jpg

lol, Awful card. Doesn't give card advantage, too slow for decks that might want this (Dredge), out of colors for some others (Reanimator). URG Tempo decks aren't going to have room, doesn't do much for Blade Control and would only hurt them more since it doesn't make colored mana.

Funny coming from you IBA: taking extra turns at CMC 2 is over-rated and/or bad, but a cycling land that needs 4 mana to tap MIGHT see play in legacy according to you?

[(nameless one)]

Funny coming from you IBA: taking extra turns at CMC 2 is over-rated and/or bad, but a cycling land that needs 4 mana to tap MIGHT see play in legacy according to you?

He did make a deck that runs Scrying Sheets and is half decent.

[MGB]

He did make a deck that runs Scrying Sheets and is half decent.

If it was half decent, he would have played it at Grand Prix: Indy.

[Zilla]

If it was half decent, he would have played it at Grand Prix: Indy.
No offense, but that's kind of a dumb thing to say. Decks can be objectively decent and still be a bad choice for a predicted metagame.

[DragoFireheart]

No offense, but that's kind of a dumb thing to say. Decks can be objectively decent and still be a bad choice for a predicted metagame.

As much as I don't agree with IBA's bad choice in cards, Zilla is correct. However, I suspect his deck was good not because of Scrying Sheets: it is possible for good/decent decks to run a couple of bad cards and do well. Considering that Wasteland is everywhere, I don't think either card (Sheets or the Lighthouse) is powerful enough to warrant:

A- Running over Wasteland.
B- Running a more stable mana base.

[Zilla]

Having playtested against IBA a great deal, I can say with some veracity that Sheets is a very important element of that deck. It generates a lot of card advantage throughout the course of a game.

Succeptibility to Wasteland isn't really an issue, because the deck's manabase is incredibly resilient. Trying to disrupt it isn't really a viable vector of attack against it.

As for manabase stability, I'd argue that Sheets' ability to keep you consistently playing a land every single turn even in the mid to late game makes it more stable, not less.

Sheets isn't an objectively strong card, but in the right deck it's quite potent. I don't know about Lighthouse, but if anyone can find an incredibly obnoxious board control deck in which to make it work, it would be IBA.

[Sims]

Having playtested against IBA a great deal, I can say with some veracity that Sheets is a very important element of that deck. It generates a lot of card advantage throughout the course of a game.

Succeptibility to Wasteland isn't really an issue, because the deck's manabase is incredibly resilient. Trying to disrupt it isn't really a viable vector of attack against it.

As for manabase stability, I'd argue that Sheets' ability to keep you consistently playing a land every single turn even in the mid to late game makes it more stable, not less.

Sheets isn't an objectively strong card, but in the right deck it's quite potent. I don't know about Lighthouse, but if anyone can find an incredibly obnoxious board control deck in which to make it work, it would be IBA.

All of this.

You can't always just jam a card in a deck and make it good. The deck will have to be built to take advantage of it. If anyone is capable of pulling that off, I'm sure it would be IBA.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Shucks. It's a good point you all are making about how awesome I am.


I can't imagine a deck, where Desolate Lighthouse could be generally better than Wasteland. Wasteland can punish greedy manabases and greedy opening hands. And you can protect more important Lands, that are in your hand. And you can destroy enemy lands, that would become a pain like Maze and Gradle.

A lot of decks that don't win particularly fast and don't have a way to abuse Wasteland in particular just don't get that much utility out of it. In fact in decks that want to run out cards like Batterskull or Jace, throwing away a land for a land is rarely going to work out to a significant advantage.

Other utility lands offer you actual effect when you're grinding it out. Rather than try to react to what their utility lands are doing you can just get some free spell slots out of your manabase yourself. This card seems very potent in a mid-range deck because it lets you churn through all those worthless extra lands and, very likely, other graveyard-enabled cards in order to get more gas, without requiring you to run a spell slot.

[Nihil Credo]

From MaRo's Reddit AMA:

As you will see when all the Avacyn Restored cards are public we've started to define how red looting is different from blue. (Hint: different order of the effects.)The obvious guess is that Red will get a "discard, then draw" effect, which in rotating Constructed is pretty cool as it's basically a non-keyworded Hellbent mechanic (removes the drawback if you have no cards in hand), but when you put it in Eternal formats that still have Dredge cards, it could get real interesting.

[Oiolosse]

Cool. Discard then draw would be fun to toy around with. There are drawbacks but there are drawback to draw, then discard. It would be uniquely Red and has synergy with many archetypes.

[DragoFireheart]

Sheets isn't an objectively strong card, but in the right deck it's quite potent. I don't know about Lighthouse, but if anyone can find an incredibly obnoxious board control deck in which to make it work, it would be IBA.

- But is it Legacy potent? (Either card).

[ivanpei]

Holy crap I just realised Skrillex 2nd ability is -4. I thought it was -1. Oh my gawd what a terrible walker. Worst ever printed IMO. What a waste of a mythic slot.

New looters land looks decent. Too slow for legacy probably. Busted in standard reanimator. Faithless looting on a land in a set of insane fatties? Standard seems interesting now. Legacy control has better colourless lands like mishra's/wastelands/dustbowl/riptide.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

- But is it Legacy potent? (Either card).

The power threshold on utility lands is much lower than that on spells, since utility lands have the benefits of being uncounterable, free, and tapping for mana.

So yes.

I mean no one wants to pay one mana every turn to attack with a Grizzly Bear, or two to block with a Trained Armodon. Except if it's a land, why not? There's a lot to be gained from squeezing more function out of your manabase, if your deck can support it.

[matunos]

I'm just hoping White gets another Miracle and that it's Balance.

[death]

I'm just hoping black gets a Miracle too and that it's Yawgmoth's Will.

[matunos]

I'm just hoping black gets a Miracle too and that it's Yawgmoth's Will.

Except they already said black's not getting any miracles.

[Oiolosse]

Holy crap I just realised Skrillex 2nd ability is -4. I thought it was -1. Oh my gawd what a terrible walker. Worst ever printed IMO. What a waste of a mythic slot.

New looters land looks decent. Too slow for legacy probably. Busted in standard reanimator. Faithless looting on a land in a set of insane fatties? Standard seems interesting now. Legacy control has better colourless lands like mishra's/wastelands/dustbowl/riptide.

Dude, -1 would be fucking incredible.

[boneclub24]

Preordered a Lighthouse for my cube at $1.99. Was already placing an order, and I can't see it falling below that price. Why not, eh?

[Vacrix]

I'm just hoping black gets a Miracle too and that it's Yawgmoth's Will.
Honestly.. Jesus would come back to life and win a Grand Prix before that happens.

I thought black wasn't getting any miracles? If they do I think it will be a sweeper.

[Gheizen64]

A discard than draw looting would be so incredibly good for red. I'm guessing even in the form of random discarding then draw it would be worth it.

Wheel of flame 2R
Sorcery
Each player discard 3 cards at random, then draw 3.


:cool:

It would also work as a pseudo-disruption. Why red walker didn't have discard 1 at random: draw 1? That would have made him playable somewhere for sure.

[I am the brainwasher]

Wheel of flame 2R
Sorcery
Each player discard 3 cards at random, then draw 3.


:cool:

How cool is Burning Inquiry then for you?
Paying to generic mana for a itty bitty vice versa doesn't seem playable.

[Dissolution]

If you have zero cards in hand (which red often does), 'Wheel of Flame' reads:
2R, draw 3 cards. Which is very playable in a deck like Dragon Stompy.

[I am the brainwasher]

'Wheel of Flame' reads:
2R, draw 3 cards. Which is very playable in a deck like Dragon Stompy.

Sorry, forgot that this was even a real deck:tongue:.

[DragoFireheart]

The power threshold on utility lands is much lower than that on spells, since utility lands have the benefits of being uncounterable, free, and tapping for mana.

So yes.

I mean no one wants to pay one mana every turn to attack with a Grizzly Bear, or two to block with a Trained Armodon. Except if it's a land, why not? There's a lot to be gained from squeezing more function out of your manabase, if your deck can support it.


What sort of deck would Scrying Sheets see play in? You'll want lots of snow cards... so that means to make this work, you're going to want a lot of snow-lands. And snow-lands are basic lands, which means your deck is going to be a mono-colored deck most likely. Not impressed as mono-colored decks are not that great in Legacy.

The Lighthouse seems a lot more limited: it's going to want to see play in, as you said, a mid-range deck. The only good blue mid-range deck is Blade Control. I don't see the benefit of weakinng UWr BC mana base for this card. Maybe if if the effect was cheaper like UR or something I'd consider it. Maybe if I tested it I'd like it, but 4 mana just for a Merfolk Looter effect? I don't think it even reaches the low power level of lands with special abilities.

[Ignithas_]

Shucks. It's a good point you all are making about how awesome I am.



A lot of decks that don't win particularly fast and don't have a way to abuse Wasteland in particular just don't get that much utility out of it. In fact in decks that want to run out cards like Batterskull or Jace, throwing away a land for a land is rarely going to work out to a significant advantage.

Other utility lands offer you actual effect when you're grinding it out. Rather than try to react to what their utility lands are doing you can just get some free spell slots out of your manabase yourself. This card seems very potent in a mid-range deck because it lets you churn through all those worthless extra lands and, very likely, other graveyard-enabled cards in order to get more gas, without requiring you to run a spell slot.

There is a reason that Wasteland is one of the most played cards in Legacy. You underestimate the strengh of it. You don't have to sac Wasteland if you need Mana for a Jace, it's always an option. Wasteland is very strong with Batterskull, because you can play it with SFM on T3 and then start to disrupt the enemy. With a control suite it gets way more difficult to react to a resolving Batterskull, when you lose tempo. And then there are enemy utility lands, that can cause you probs. Wasteland can get rid of them.

[bruizar]

There is a reason that Wasteland is one of the most played cards in Legacy. You underestimate the strengh of it. You don't have to sac Wasteland if you need Mana for a Jace, it's always an option. Wasteland is very strong with Batterskull, because you can play it with SFM on T3 and then start to disrupt the enemy. With a control suite it gets way more difficult to react to a resolving Batterskull, when you lose tempo. And then there are enemy utility lands, that can cause you probs. Wasteland can get rid of them.

More importantly, wasteland takes care of Tower of the Magistrate.

[The Big Ragu]

Tibalt is preordering for $24.99. Rather ridiculous price for such a weak card.

[luckme10]

I'm really getting excited for Chalice of the Void and Miracle cards. Maybe with a stompy shell and Scroll Rack or Library or something....

Banishing Stroke with chalice at 1 seems like fun.

[joven]

Holy crap I just realised Skrillex 2nd ability is -4. I thought it was -1. Oh my gawd what a terrible walker. Worst ever printed IMO. What a waste of a mythic slot.


A waste of a mythic slot?? Isn't it good (for us players) when mythic rares aren't that good? Prizes of very good mythic rares usually go through the roof. Who actually likes that? Well, I don't like that. From the players point of view it is bad when good cards are mythic rare.

EDIT: Actually I'm glad that the 2cc walker is crap!

[hyperchord24]

Tibalt is preordering for $24.99. Rather ridiculous price for such a weak card.
Considering Sorin, Lord of Innistrad presold for $65, I'm not that surprised.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There is a reason that Wasteland is one of the most played cards in Legacy.

Causality dictates such. It just doesn't dictate that the reason (or reasons) boil down to, "Because it's entirely correct to run in the numbers it sees."


You underestimate the strengh of it.

I would say that I have a realistic appraisal of the strength of the card. One of the biggest problems in Magic deck design is the tendency of people to classify cards as simply either a binary "amazing" or "shit." In reality every card has both pros and cons attached to it, and these have to be weighed for comparative advantage when eating up deck slots.


You don't have to sac Wasteland if you need Mana for a Jace, it's always an option. Wasteland is very strong with Batterskull, because you can play it with SFM on T3 and then start to disrupt the enemy.

I'm going to stop you right there. If you are casting Jaces and needing to manipulate Batterskull, let alone also casting Snapcasters etc., you don't have a particular incentive to try and lose a land to hope you can screw over someone who's probably got less need for the mana than you do.


With a control suite it gets way more difficult to react to a resolving Batterskull, when you lose tempo.

This isn't a coherent thought as far as I can tell.


And then there are enemy utility lands, that can cause you probs. Wasteland can get rid of them.

Yeah, that's a good point, utility lands can cause people problems.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

More importantly, wasteland takes care of Tower of the Magistrate.

Alternately, Tower of the Magistrate takes care of Batterskull, which you're much more likely to see than an opposing Tower of the Magistrate.

[Basaka]

Reforge the Soul 3RR

Sorcery - Rare

Miracle 1R

Each player discards his/her hand and draws seven cards.

Possible wish target in Storm?

[heroicraptor]

Reforge the Soul 3RR

Sorcery - Rare

Miracle 1R

Each player discards his/her hand and draws seven cards.

Me gusta.

[whienot]

Reforge the Soul may actually be worth Personal Tutoring for. At least you get your cards back.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Reforge the Soul 3RR

Sorcery - Rare

Miracle 1R

Each player discards his/her hand and draws seven cards.

Possible wish target in Storm?

You know there's Wish target's that are basically one sided versions of this already and they don't cost 5.



Reforge the Soul may actually be worth Personal Tutoring for. At least you get your cards back.

For those games where you really want to spend 2 turns casting Wheel of Fortune.

[Whippoorwill]

Reforge the Soul 3RR

Sorcery - Rare

Miracle 1R

Each player discards his/her hand and draws seven cards.

Possible wish target in Storm?

Much better than I expected, I'm sure this will see play in Legacy since the normal cost isn't that bad.

I doubt it since Time Reversal didn't see any play. At best I could possibly see this main deck in a Past in Flames list


@The Big Ragu: He started at $17.49 but slowly went up since then.

[luckme10]

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/434/reforgethesoul.jpg

Sigh, unbelievable. Guess I may actually have to get those volcanic islands.

[Namida]

I doubt it since Time Reversal didn't see any play. At best I could possibly see this main deck in a Past in Flames list.

If discard decks were more relevant in the format, I could easily see this in the sideboards of some Combo decks. It's not a bad Wish target, and you can side it in against discard decks as a 2 mana Draw-7 for when they inevitably put you into topdeck mode.

[KevinTrudeau]

Ah, that's probably the card that the dude from Wizards was referring to when he said that they were afraid a non-blue card with Miracle might be too good to not be banned in Legacy. Seems pretty potentially potent; can't truly perceive at the moment just how swell it will be in combo decks, current or yet to be materialized.

Miracle is giving ICP and the Juggalo family a bad name.

[Vacrix]

Jesus.. some storm combo variants might even be able to run that in the maindeck. I like it. Its well costed at 3RR IMO. Didn't expect this though to be honest. Not after they reprinted a conditional Wheel of Fortune with suspend.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The five mana isn't even incredibly unreasonable for that effect, I think is the relevant thing here. Obviously setting it up for two mana is going to be really powerful.

[joemauer]

Reforge the Sould seems too situational to use in any current combo decks. Don't think a combo deck could build around this card.

I think it could find it's way into a U/R delver deck or MUD. Any deck that would want to empty it's hand quickly and could reasonably cast this wheel of fortune.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Also holy fuck the flavor is terrible in this set.

[Dark Ritual]

This + past in flames. Busted much? I know I'm going to try to break the fuck out of this card in legacy. WotC will regret the day they printed this card. 2 mana wheel of fortune? Sounds completely broken to me, nice job with the miracle mechanic WotC at first I thought it would be just another interesting mechanic but instead you just undercost the crap out of anything with miracle. I can't see how this miracle mechanic made it through testing, oh wait R&D doesn't test shit for legacy and they fail to see powerful interactions between old cards and new cards. I mean what R&D member doesn't know what the card brainstorm does? Everyone in R&D should know about the card brainstorm, as it was put on the best planeswalker in the game a couple of years ago.

Heck even at 5 mana wheel of fortune seems to be a spicy card, as drawing 7 cards is quite powerful especially when it interacts very favorably with past in flames.

[luckme10]

My first thought is I'm going to try to make this happen in Affinity.
Alas, problem solved.
+4 Personal Tutor
+2 Reforge the Soul


Ok this is just nasty. Personal Tutor is definitely playable now. The card disadvantage is negated by the potential for Reforge the Soul. Affinity is the aggro deck that wants to play this card the most. They have 6-8 mana accelerators in the form of springleaf and mox opal... By turn three they've usually emptied their hand anyways. Imagine what 4 Personal Tutors and a pair of Reforge the Souls. This is just insane. The card draw just makes me feel like I'm playing multiple games. I will go as far as to say that this combo breaks affinity. Here try it for yourself:

CREATURES
4 Ornithopter
4 Memnite
3 Signal Pest
3 Frogmite
2 Master of Etherium
2 Etched Champion

PLANESWALKER
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

SPELLS
4 Galvanic Blast
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
4 Personal Tutor
2 Reforge the Soul

ARTIFACTS
3 Mox Opal
3 Springleaf Drum

LANDS
4 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Great Furnace

[joemauer]

Also holy fuck the flavor is terrible in this set.

At least the art is nice.

[Malchar]

Hmm, now I can finally make my monored storm deck, which uses blood moon instead of losing to it.

[morgan_coke]

Yeah, that thing is totally going to have to be banned.

Ignore the miracle cost. It's irrelevant. ANT sees play at five mana, and it's not in the same color as Past in Flames.

Try this off the top of my head, and remember I don't play combo, like ever:

4x Reforge the Soul
4x Past in Flames
4x Rite of Flame
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Geosurge
4x Seething Song
4x Scattershot
4x Manamorphose
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Faithless Looting
16x Mountain

Hell, you could run 8x Moon effects and Price of Progress in that, and easily board into stuff like Deus of Calamity. And I'm sure a r/b version with Rituals, petals, LEDs, and Tutors would be even better. Ad Nauseum is marginally acceptable because it's suicidal and restricts your deck building choices. This thing doesn't, well, not aside from "use red ritual cards you were going to use anyways".

Memory Jar was an incredibly problematic draw 7 at five mana. This is too, given the million different ways combo decks can abuse it. In Legacy terms, the miracle cost is irrelevant, the color, combination with rituals and past in flames, and numerous ways it can lead to excessively consistent kills is the problem.

Kill options:

1. Storm
2. Megrim/Liliana's Caress
3. Burn spells + past in flames + draw + mana
4. something even more busted I'm not thinking of off the top of my head.

[lordofthepit]

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/434/reforgethesoul.jpg

Sigh, unbelievable. Guess I may actually have to get those volcanic islands.

:eek:

I need to start brewing.

[Basara]

seriously wtf with starcity price-cards speculation , the stupid 2mc planeswalker , one of the worst cards in the set for a mythic , is in 22 dls , now , the new wheel of fortune is at 3 dolars...

[DLifshitz]

This is too, given the million different ways combo decks can abuse it. In Legacy terms, the miracle cost is irrelevant, the color, combination with rituals and past in flames, and numerous ways it can lead to excessively consistent kills is the problem.

Honest question from someone who never played Storm combo: is that true? Is Wheel of Fortune broken at 5 mana?

@Starcitygames price: It's out of stock at $2.99. A few minutes ago I preordered a playset for $19. I am sure the price will temporarily climb up to $10+ .

[Humphrey]

Ok, this thing is teh shit.

Quick Brew: (Fuck Belcher)
3 Reforge the Soul
2 Past in Flames
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Faithless Looting
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
3 Land Grant
2 Taiga
1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 4 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Goblin War Strike
SB: 1 Grapeshot

[Vacrix]

How? You play 9 business spells 2 of which (Pif) only do something if you have another. Even Belcher plays 11. Thats pretty much the minimum business count for a glass house.

[Humphrey]

Its just a quick brew, as i said. And you need less killoptions mainboard because you are going to draw 14+ cards in the first turn(s) and grab everything you need with Tutor

Anyways its
2 pif
4 tutor
1 grapeshot
1 etw
3 reforge

[Vacrix]

I can see it being good in Belcher, I just question 9 business spells.

[Humphrey]

well you basically cylcle around your deck until you hit pif, tutor or reforge to cycle some more or draw 7. Finally you build enough storm to kill with grapeshot, build a bunch of token or tutor for warstrike to get the instant kill.

[Vacrix]

I think Faithless Looting would be better as more business.

[Deviruchi]

1. Burning Wish for Personal Tutor. Later Personal Tutor for Reforge the Soul. Upkeep Chant/Silence. Draw Miracle.

2. Burning Wish for Reforge the Soul. Later Brainstorm to setup your top of library. Upkeep Chant/Silence. Draw Miracle.

I'm not sure these lines of play are so good but they are decent enough to test a little bit. It's just 1 MB or 1 SB card in TES / DDFT.

[Vacrix]

I'm not sure TES can afford to play another 5cc and if it did, it would play Ad Nauseam +1. If personal Tutor were good, storm combo would already be playing it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Being able to cut Ad Nauseam might offer the deck a lot of benefits. It's a powerful card, but constrictive on the way the deck is built. This card seems much more flexible.

[morgan_coke]

Being able to cut Ad Nauseam might offer the deck a lot of benefits. It's a powerful card, but constrictive on the way the deck is built. This card seems much more flexible.

This. What I said earlier. RtS doesn't go into ANT, it replaces Ad Naus and then lets you run a bunch of past in flames too. plus other junk and you basically draw out your entire deck without the lifeloss. The combination of discard, mass flashback, mass draw, and rituals is toxic. plus you can stay in straight r/b thanks to looting, draw 7's, flashback and tutors etc. much easier manabase to maintain.

This card is a red sorcery memory jar, with flashback thanks to past in flames. BAD THINGS MAN. BAD THINGS.

[majikal]

So, does this mean the shitstorm is back on, or...?

[Infinitium]

I think it wored out most of it's strength in it's first passing. Maybe a stiff shitgale?

..Albeit, the wheel of fortune looks like it might indeed end up (more) busted (than the alternative engines) in storm, especially considering the interaction with artifact mana (and dark ritual in response).

[Gheizen64]

Interesting to say the least. MonoR combo?

3 SdT
4 PiF
4 Rite of flame
4 Pyretic ritual
4 Seething song
4 Desperate ritual
4 Ruby medallion
3 Reforge the soul
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
1 Empty the warrens
1 Grapeshot
3 Burning wish

etc...

Ruby Medallion seems sick in a monoR storm deck, with all the spell except rite of flame costing colorless.

[luckme10]

Although Temporal Mastery provided me with a more WTF inducing gut reaction than Reforge the Soul, the former card scares me far less than the latter. So much of legacy revolves around quick plays and decks that abuse such always have a tendency to run out of gas. Because of this, decks specifically designed to unload early will always be able to utilize early card draw. Printing Reforge the Soul was just a mistake. At the very least, I'll have to start dedicating more sideboard to anti combo and perhaps anti artifact (if my testing was proven to be true). I'll tell you guys this... If only one card is to get banned from this set, I can honestly say it won't be Temporal Mastery.

[I am the brainwasher]

Also holy fuck the flavor is terrible in this set.

Word. That whole set of Miracle-cards and the friggin Soratami are just so far away from the story-line or the general flavour of the set. Pretty much the same as the introduction of Planeswalkers in Lorwyn, which didn't even played a role within the whole story of Lorwyn and the block would have been way more interesting without those IMO. Is it so hard to throw these cards into core-sets?
Miracle cards are just completely unnecessary bullshit that does not even look like shit and complicates a whole lot of rules/cards, but also makes the most annoying factor that already exists even more unconvinient: Topdecking. Maybe it's just me but thats what I feel like.

[aaronm678]

Interesting to say the least. MonoR combo?

3 SdT
4 PiF
4 Rite of flame
4 Pyretic ritual
4 Seething song
4 Desperate ritual
4 Ruby medallion
3 Reforge the soul
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
1 Empty the warrens
1 Grapeshot
3 Burning Wish


Why would you go mono red with this card? There are so many things horrible about this list
-all the best rituals are black...you should play them. You run 8 artifact mana, there will not be problems w/ color
-You need to build a list with some sort of chant effects-your opponent is drawing 7 every time you cast this as well. I get that pif has flashback...but good luck getting the mana for that.

That said, I currently run a BUr ANT list, and I think this is at least worst testing out a slot...also...Time Walk is not an effect worth personal tutoring for, but this absolutely is, particularly since this easily can be a turn 2 play.

Does anyone know if the ruling on miracle lets you use LED to pay the cost? I haven't seen the technical rules on the mechanic yet.

I really do think the best list for this has black rituals (at the very least dark rit) and brainstorm...this card is very mediocre for non-miracle, for miracle it's obviously absurd, and I think is worth the setup it takes. This seems much scarier than the Time Walk...particularly since this is actually hard-castable.

[bruizar]

I'm just waiting for miracle balance now. That would make the shitstorm complete.

[Final Fortune]

Honest question from someone who never played Storm combo: is that true? Is Wheel of Fortune broken at 5 mana?

@Starcitygames price: It's out of stock at $2.99. A few minutes ago I preordered a playset for $19. I am sure the price will temporarily climb up to $10+ .

The difference between 3RR and 3UU is significant, because you can resolve your Draw 7 off either Lion's Eye Diamond OR red rituals, with the Wheel of Fortune effect instead of the Timetwister effect powering up Rite of Flames and Cabal Rituals from the graveyard (and it's immune to REB for what it's worth).

It may also just be completely fucking broken with Personal Tutor, a Storm deck with 4 Infernal Tutor, 1 Past in Flames and 4 Personal Tutor, 2 Reforge the Soul is seriously promising.

[klaus]

"Shitsunami" - Kudos to whoever came up with that word!

[bruizar]

Burn wants this I think

[Gheizen64]

Burn wants this I think

Sarcasm?

Burn can't cast this in its lifetime.

[(nameless one)]

Sarcasm?

Burn can't cast this in its lifetime.

They need to pull of a miracle to cast something that costs 5.

On the other hand, all this time I'm wishing Memory Jar was unbanned for MUD, I think this can be a good alternative.

Memory Jar:

Artifact that can be Welded back.
Colorless
Can be saved for later

Miracle Wheel:

'Legal' in Legacy
Also costs 5 and if you're lucky 2 (though double red could be too much)
Will do the same thing I want with Jar.

Also, molten boobies!

[bloodbrother]

Wow, they really reprinted the restricted cards. Now I'm waiting for Return to Ravnica to print lands that are in between the original and the shocklands. Maybe a miracle mechanic for lands called "PROGRESS"

Evolved Blood Crypt
Swamp Mountain
Evolved Blood Crypt enters the battlefield tapped unless you pay 2 life
PROGRESS: When Evolved Blood Crypt enters the battlefield, if this is your first land that enters the battlefield this turn you may gain 2 life.

Then they can reprint price of progress in RtR LOL.

[alderon666]

The new red miracle looks good on UR Delver.

Creature, creature, burn, burn, burn, refill hand?

5 mana is pretty steep for a "sligh-burn" deck, but Brainstorm can put it on top, Ponder can help you find it and Snapcaster can help you do that again. And after turn 3 or 4, this thing is just an awesome topdeck.


One aspect of using this card in a non-combo deck is being able to use the cards you draw faster than your opponents. So instead of drawing Batterskulls, lands, Jaces and equipaments, you want to be drawing stuff like Fireblast, Bolts and Forces. Just a thought.

[Greenpoe]

The new red miracle looks good on UR Delver.

Creature, creature, burn, burn, burn, refill hand?

5 mana is pretty steep for a "sligh-burn" deck, but Brainstorm can put it on top, Ponder can help you find it and Snapcaster can help you do that again. And after turn 3 or 4, this thing is just an awesome topdeck.


One aspect of using this card in a non-combo deck is being able to use the cards you draw faster than your opponents. So instead of drawing Batterskulls, lands, Jaces and equipaments, you want to be drawing stuff like Fireblast, Bolts and Forces. Just a thought.

In UR Delver, Personal Tutor actually makes sense with the red miracle, too-it'll just refill your hand!

[Kich867]

In UR Delver, Personal Tutor actually makes sense with the red miracle, too-it'll just refill your hand!

I'm wondering if it'd be legitimate to drop ponder for Personal Tutor. You either search up 5 damage or draw 7..which is all you'd ever be looking for anyways haha.

[alderon666]

I'm wondering if it'd be legitimate to drop ponder for Personal Tutor. You either search up 5 damage or draw 7..which is all you'd ever be looking for anyways haha.

IDK, once you start playing cute combos like that, you open yourself to people playing Surgical Extraction on a random card to counter your tutor or something like that. If the whole tutor for Miracle thing catches on, people will just play Thought Scour or Predict...

I really don't like -CA aspect of it too. Any burn to the face is card disadvantage until they die, and adding more of that doesn't seem the way to go. Altough, I must admit, if tutor for the draw 7 resolves, it's just awesome.

[MirrorMask]

Does anyone has the feeling that all the new "reprints" of the old cards are something like a mediocre and first attempt to bypass/"cancel" the reserved list? They are by no means broken like their old counterparts but with the support cards that exist can have quite a similar effect on legacy. Wheel of fortune? Time Walk? FUCK YEAH! I was really wrong to call for a ban on time walk and now I would really like to see t in action.

P.s would it be much to ask for a "miraculous" black lotus??:rolleyes:

[Gheizen64]

Does anyone has the feeling that all the new "reprints" of the old cards are something like a mediocre and first attempt to bypass/"cancel" the reserved list? They are by no means broken like their old counterparts but with the support cards that exist can have quite a similar effect on legacy. Wheel of fortune? Time Walk? FUCK YEAH! I was really wrong to call for a ban on time walk and now I would really like to see t in action.

P.s would it be much to ask for a "miraculous" black lotus??:rolleyes:

Who care about "bypassing" the reserved list with cards that are nowhere as good as the old ones? You could say Underground river is also an attempt to "bypass" the reserved list. Those cards are simply throwbacks to the old power cards, like Ancestral Vision and Wheel of fate or Lotus bloom.

That's probably the stupidest thing i've heard today.

[MirrorMask]

Who care about "bypassing" the reserved list with cards that are nowhere as good as the old ones? You could say Underground river is also an attempt to "bypass" the reserved list. Those cards are simply throwbacks to the old power cards, like Ancestral Vision and Wheel of fate or Lotus bloom.

That's probably the stupidest thing i've heard today.

You can't possibly think that they are going to give legacy the stuff vintage has. Its only normal. They haven't done anything for many years. It might be a first step. It seems like they are attempting something here. As I said they are NOT as strong as the old ones and no underground river doesn't even have the effect of a dual land and you don't even know what you are talking about. Underground river also was made countless years ago (did the reserve list exist back then? When ice age was type 2?) The attempt to recreate duals was with the shocklands which of course failed as far as legacy is concerned. What makes you SO certain that the new cards will NOT have a similar effect that CAN be used this time?

[Gheizen64]

You can't possibly think that they are going to give legacy the stuff vintage has. Its only normal. They haven't done anything for many years. It might be a first step. It seems like they are attempting something here. As I said they are NOT as strong as the old ones and no underground river doesn't even have the effect of a dual land and you don't even know what you are talking about. Underground river also was made countless years ago (did the reserve list exist back then? When ice age was type 2?) The attempt to recreate duals was with the shocklands which of course failed as far as legacy is concerned. What makes you SO certain that the new cards will NOT have a similar effect that CAN be used this time?


What is this i can't even.

So let me clarify this. You're saying they're trying to "bypass" the reserved list, and the reasons you're saying this is because they've printed a 5UU conditional time walk and a 3RR conditional wheel? What's next? Jace ingenuity is a try to bypass the reserved list too? It has the same effect of ancestral after all.

The only thing i'd consider a try to "bypass" the reserved list is a functional reprint that isn't considered functional because it has some extremely minor difference that never matter (like a tribal type or a snow supertype). All the rest are just what they are, new cards that happen to have an effect that was already printed before because the game has seen what, 15k cards by now?

[MirrorMask]

You haven't told me WHAT makes you think that they WON'T work at least decently enough. They are not as random as you think. The new wheel of fortune for example can easily work in a burn/ur delver deck or even in something different and it will rarely be bad. Wheel of fortune was never bad and the new one can even be cheaper. I used a decade back and was a powerhouse in my red sligh. The new one has almost the same effect to these kind of decks at least.

P.s You know they are afraid to cancel the list. Why do you demand them to do it all at once? You didn't get what exactly i meant. I said they seem to be trying to do something otherwise we wouldn't see so many similar cards at once. I may be wrong though.

[TarmoX]

@Mirrormask

You really think Reforge the Soul could work in U/R list???

[MirrorMask]

probably yes but not as a playset

[majikal]

Okay. This shit is actually bonkers. Goldfished a rough Storm list, and Lion's Eye Diamond is now 100% Black Lotus and Past in Flames now might as well be Yawgmoth's Will. Brace yourselves boys, the sky really is falling this time.

[bloodbrother]

You haven't told me WHAT makes you think that they WON'T work at least decently enough. They are not as random as you think. The new wheel of fortune for example can easily work in a burn/ur delver deck or even in something different and it will rarely be bad. Wheel of fortune was never bad and the new one can even be cheaper. I used a decade back and was a powerhouse in my red sligh. The new one has almost the same effect to these kind of decks at least.

P.s You know they are afraid to cancel the list. Why do you demand them to do it all at once? You didn't get what exactly i meant. I said they seem to be trying to do something otherwise we wouldn't see so many similar cards at once. I may be wrong though.

Yup, I noticed this also. This is the closest to the original that I've seen so far. Their trying to create little brothers to the original reserved cards. Yawgmoth's Will > Past in Flames, Time Walk > Temporal Mastery, Wheel of Fortune > Reforge the Soul. I mean, they have to nerf the reprints in someway. Those are not in the restricted list in Vintage for nothing. In the case of past in flames, it has the same role of yawgmoths will in combo. In the case of the miracle cards, you can't strategically time the casting. But there are also times in vintage were you only need a top decked time walk to race your opponent, or a top decked wheel of fortune to to combo out. They did reprint the mox in mox opal, it has limited use unlike it's big brothers but its still a mox with built in restriction to 1 on the battlefield. In affinity or other artifact decks, its still a mox. Lion's Eye Diamond is still black lotus in the eyes of the combo player, I mean being a nerfed version of black lotus does not keep us from playing this in legacy decks. The key to these functional copies is that not all decks can benefit from them, unlike the original versions, which makes vintage decks 10-13 identical cards + others.

[MirrorMask]

Praise the lord!!! some guys with some logic in them! thank you guys i thought i was insane for a moment!:tongue:

[Malchar]

Does anyone has the feeling that all the new "reprints" of the old cards are something like a mediocre and first attempt to bypass/"cancel" the reserved list? They are by no means broken like their old counterparts but with the support cards that exist can have quite a similar effect on legacy. Wheel of fortune? Time Walk? FUCK YEAH! I was really wrong to call for a ban on time walk and now I would really like to see t in action.

P.s would it be much to ask for a "miraculous" black lotus??:rolleyes:

Woah guys look what I just found!
Restore Balance
Ancestral Vision
Wheel of Fate
Lotus Bloom
Do people not know that these exist? How come they aren't being used in legacy?!

[bloodbrother]

Praise the lord!!! some guys with some logic in them! thank you guys i thought i was insane for a moment!:tongue:

they already started with Time Spiral and keeps on improving. I mean Ancestral Visions is still the closest you can get to Ancestral Recall, unless there is already a miracle ancestral recall coming out.

[(nameless one)]

Woah guys look what I just found!
Restore Balance
Ancestral Vision
Wheel of Fate
Lotus Bloom
Do people not know that these exist? How come they aren't being used in legacy?!


While those cards are awesome, it prepares the opponent from the oncoming shitstorm it will create.

A topdecked (and casted) version that has an immediate effect will create more damage to the shitstorm.

Its like comparing Katrina vs. Irene hurricanes.

New Orleans wasn't 100% prepared when Katrina hit and it was literally shitstorm.

New York was so prepared with Irene that as if Irene didn't do much there.

Same idea goes with Suspended vs. Miracle. With suspend, you can actually have time to prepare for the worst whereas with miracle, the only thing you have left is to blame WotC.

Remember "George Bush doesn't care about black people"? Yes, kinda like that.

PS. I still don't think Miracle spells are that broken. They're just too good to be ignored not to be played

[Deviruchi]

Now I wait for Miracle-Geddon and something like:

U
Instant

You may put up to one card from your hand on top of your library.
You may draw up to one card.

And then Internet will explode.

It's interesting how this mechanic will survive in the sea of Stifle and S.Extraction.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There's nothing inherently busted about the Miracle mechanic. The interesting thing about Reforge is that it's raw cost is perfectly obtainable in a storm deck. I really think that, if it doesn't break the deck, this is going to push storm into tier 1. I think the biggest question is if you go black for more Rituals/Infernal Tutor/Tendrils, or if you go blue for Brainstorm/Ponder. Or both.

Meanwhile, if you can get away with paying only two mana for it after first dumping all your artifact mana/tops, well, that's going to be pretty insane.

[bloodbrother]

While those cards are awesome, it prepares the opponent from the oncoming shitstorm it will create.

A topdecked (and casted) version that has an immediate effect will create more damage to the shitstorm.

Its like comparing Katrina vs. Irene hurricanes.

New Orleans wasn't 100% prepared when Katrina hit and it was literally shitstorm.

New York was so prepared with Irene that as if Irene didn't do much there.

Same idea goes with Suspended vs. Miracle. With suspend, you can actually have time to prepare for the worst whereas with miracle, the only thing you have left is to blame WotC.

Remember "George Bush doesn't care about black people"? Yes, kinda like that.

yup, suspend gives away your intention pretty easily. now these miracle cards are the closest you can get to a top decked restricted card in vintage. imagine the opponent tinkered a blightsteel collosus, you having a 4/5 goyf and a 5/5 reliquary. opponent at 10 life. you chump block with goyf, then on your turn top decked a time walk and proceeded to kill your opponent. or you can also be on the other side top decking a time walk, tinker for blightsteel and cast time walk for GG.

you can't experience that kind of play in legacy/modern/standard right now. but now wizards is giving us a chance to experience that.

top decked temporal mastery(time walk) + show and tell(tinker) for blightsteel = GG
opponent at 5 life, empty board and tapped out due to sweeping the board. you have a goyf in hand which will be a 5/6, you top decked temporal mastery = GG.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm goldfishing this list atm, it seems pretty insane, although it obviously needs some more streamlining.

4 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
4 Land Grant
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Faithless Looting
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Reforge the Soul
4 Duress
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB:
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 Cabal Therapy
I dunno what else

[lolosoon]

top decked temporal mastery(time walk) + show and tell(tinker) for blightsteel = GG.
That, or cheat a Yawgmoth's Bargain(Griselbrand) into play and win thereafter.

But i'm pretty sure DeckBuilders here are working on a CB/Walk Control deck or a R/x Reforge Storm deck while others crave to play their MiracleBurn.dec or VexingDelver.dec as soon as possible.

Yup, seems like the Maverick era will be gone soon. Not a bad thing imho. Time to shake things up.

[rufus]

I'm wondering if it'd be legitimate to drop ponder for Personal Tutor. You either search up 5 damage or draw 7..which is all you'd ever be looking for anyways haha.

Thunderous Wrath is an instant, so you can't PT for it.

Reforge does look like it could be pretty strong in something like Aggro-loam.

I'm not sure how :u::u::2: (Diminishing Returns) compares with :r::r::3:

[joemauer]

Its like comparing Katrina vs. Irene hurricanes.

New Orleans wasn't 100% prepared when Katrina hit and it was literally shitstorm.

New York was so prepared with Irene that as if Irene didn't do much there.



I know this off subject, but New Orleans is below sea level. Katrina was a shit show because it was a mix of ignorant people, ignorant government, and lazy levee engineers. Combine that with the fact that a Catergory five hurricane (almost the size of the gulf of mexico) brought a massive tidal surge into a city that is literally bowl shaped. Also, New Orleans wasn't the only place devastated by the storm, the whole coastline from Louisiana to Alabama was devastated.

I am sorry but try not to compare something like Hurricane Katrina to anything unless you have seen it first hand.

Comparing the two storms are like comparing that one time you got into a fight at school to the Columbine Shooting.

[joven]

Reforge the Soul

first reaction: "Oh shit! Oh no, they did it ... at 2cc!"

first thoughts:
- ridiculously broken: Wheel of Fortune at 2cc, why didn't they make the miracle cost 2R like the original (banned) Wheel of Fortune? Even the normal cost at 5cc seems playable. And it doesn't remove itself like Temporal Mastery does!
- It is perfect for Burn: Why would anybody now play something different than Burn? Burn got a lot of really strong spells with Avacyn Restored (Devil, Wrath, Reforge).
- I'm almost certain that it will be banned very soon. If even Mark Rosewater said that it might happen ...!

[Barook]

If it's played outside anything that doesn't kill on the same turn, Dredge on the other side of the table might have a field day since it's enabler + 7 dredge possibilities.

Too bad it doesn't seem playable in Dredge itself - or is it?

[Infinitium]

I find it highly unlikely that this card will se play in anything but storm (or Belcher). Unless you kill the opponent on the same turn there's just no justifying the tempo spent on it, especially considering that the opponent gets to draw into a fresh hand as well for free.

[Malchar]

If it's played outside anything that doesn't kill on the same turn, Dredge on the other side of the table might have a field day since it's enabler + 7 dredge possibilities.

Too bad it doesn't seem playable in Dredge itself - or is it?

I haven't played dredge much, so this might be totally wrong, but I think that it costing 2 is a little too costly. It does a lot, but at a pretty high price. One benefit is that it means you might be able to build dredge without using blue mana at all, since they typically only need blue for the draw/discard. Of course, without blue it's a lot harder to miracle.

[Nihil Credo]

If it's played outside anything that doesn't kill on the same turn, Dredge on the other side of the table might have a field day since it's enabler + 7 dredge possibilities.

Too bad it doesn't seem playable in Dredge itself - or is it?
Pretty sure it isn't, but this reminds me that there is an interesting interaction between Miracle and Dredge: dredging a card does not count as a draw, so if you dredge-replace all your draws, dumping a bunch of cards in your graveyard including some Miracle ones, if you then put the Miracle card on top of your library(with Noxious Revival or something) and play a cantrip, you can play it for the Miracle cost.

Dredge can't do these shenanigans, but Loam decks might (assuming there's a more interesting card for them than Reforge the Soul). LftL provides the dredge, cycling lands provide the draw, the remaining issue is reclaiming the Miracle card without playing complete shit to do it. Academy Ruins / Volrath's Stronghold would fit effortlessly, but it seems as if Miracles will stick to instant or sorceries.

[Final Fortune]

I find it highly unlikely that this card will se play in anything but storm (or Belcher). Unless you kill the opponent on the same turn there's just no justifying the tempo spent on it, especially considering that the opponent gets to draw into a fresh hand as well for free.

It's busted as fuck in Storm, it doesn't take long to come up with a list that'll send Personal Tutor on the fast track to the banned list IMO, and it's probably even more degenerate than Mystical Tutor and Lion's Eye Diamond were before the ban and rules change because Brainstorm is absolutely ridiculous when you can run as many copies of this thing as you want without kiling yourself ala Ad Nauseam.

Top decking this thing in Storm is so fucking unfair, I have no idea what R&D was smoking when they changed the CC to 1R.

[joemauer]

It's busted as fuck in Storm, it doesn't take long to come up with a list that'll send Personal Tutor on the fast track to the banned list IMO, and it's probably even more degenerate than Mystical Tutor and Lion's Eye Diamond were before the ban and rules change because Brainstorm is absolutely ridiculous when you can run as many copies of this thing as you want without kiling yourself ala Ad Nauseam.

Top decking this thing in Storm is so fucking unfair, I have no idea what R&D was smoking when they changed the CC to 1R.

Please elaborate on how this will make storm decks broken. So far I have only seen bad belcher lists being thrown around.

[Oiolosse]

I have no experience playing with Timewalk but Wheel of Fortune is a favorite of mine and I know how busted it is. To me draw 7 > extra turn. I know they're different. Timewalk (at least in Legacy) seems like it would fit aggro/control better and WoF is very combo. But still, if one of the two is broken I put my money on Reforge the Soul.

[Final Fortune]

Please elaborate on how this will make storm decks broken. So far I have only seen bad belcher lists being thrown around.

When Brainstorm and Personal Tutor become "accelerants" for "Wheel of Fortune" and you have ~4 "oops, I win" top decks it's pretty unfair, you can do some pretty ridiculous things like Brainstorm, put Reforge the Soul two cards down, draw and try to go off with Infernal Tutor and Lions Eye Diamond, get countered/Mind Twisted and then top deck Reforge the Soul and try to go off again etc.

I don't have the manabase, disruption and number of Reforge the Soul and Empty the Warrens quite right, but the lines of play are pretty disgusting and I think Reforge the Soul is going to surplant Ad Nauseam as the "go to" Storm engine because it's not nearly as restrictive in terms of the number of the non-tutor threats, Simian Spirit Guides and win/kill conditions (i.e Tendrils of Agony Empty the Warrens) you can run and you're no longer hindered by your life total.

I don't think you should bother with Burning Wish or Ponder from what I've gathered so far, but I may be off.

[Namida]

Please elaborate on how this will make storm decks broken. So far I have only seen bad belcher lists being thrown around.

You're only seeing bad belcher lists because it's foolish to assume that optimized decks are going to appear out of thin air in a day--give it time. I personally think Reforge the Soul is as powerful as Ad Nauseam without imposing the deck constraints that Ad Nauseam does and Reforge the Soul + Past in Flames is cuckoo-bonkers to a level that makes me confident that it must be possible to build a strong Storm deck utilizing the two of them.

[morgan_coke]

Pretty sure it isn't, but this reminds me that there is an interesting interaction between Miracle and Dredge: dredging a card does not count as a draw, so if you dredge-replace all your draws, dumping a bunch of cards in your graveyard including some Miracle ones, if you then put the Miracle card on top of your library(with Noxious Revival or something) and play a cantrip, you can play it for the Miracle cost.

Dredge can't do these shenanigans, but Loam decks might (assuming there's a more interesting card for them than Reforge the Soul). LftL provides the dredge, cycling lands provide the draw, the remaining issue is reclaiming the Miracle card without playing complete shit to do it. Academy Ruins / Volrath's Stronghold would fit effortlessly, but it seems as if Miracles will stick to instant or sorceries.

Hag Hedge-Mage
+Astral Slide
+Various Miracles
+Cycling Lands
---------------------------------
Two Miracles per turn. (one on your turn, one on your opponents)

Only really works with the White and Red ones out of what's been revealed so far, but there's a lot of potential there if some more good stuff gets spoiled. Temporal Mastery would be perfect, but the "exile clause" kinda ruins it.

[joemauer]

You're only seeing bad belcher lists because it's foolish to assume that optimized decks are going to appear out of thin air in a day--give it time. I personally think Reforge the Soul is as powerful as Ad Nauseam without imposing the deck constraints that Ad Nauseam does and Reforge the Soul + Past in Flames is cuckoo-bonkers to a level that makes me confident that it must be possible to build a strong Storm deck utilizing the two of them.

I thought I was seeing bad belcher decklists posted with reforge the soul added because everyone was blinded by hype.

[Namida]

I thought I was seeing bad belcher decklists posted with reforge the soul added because everyone was blinded by hype.

There may be *some* truth in those words, but the only point you can genuinely make is that people make bad decks when a card is first revealed.

[SpikeyMikey]

Reforge the Soul

first reaction: "Oh shit! Oh no, they did it ... at 2cc!"

first thoughts:
- ridiculously broken: Wheel of Fortune at 2cc, why didn't they make the miracle cost 2R like the original (banned) Wheel of Fortune? Even the normal cost at 5cc seems playable. And it doesn't remove itself like Temporal Mastery does!
- It is perfect for Burn: Why would anybody now play something different than Burn? Burn got a lot of really strong spells with Avacyn Restored (Devil, Wrath, Reforge).
- I'm almost certain that it will be banned very soon. If even Mark Rosewater said that it might happen ...!

It's terrible in burn. Every miracle card is terrible in burn. If you play with a miracle card in burn, you deserve all the losses you'll get.

Burn's game plan is to win no later than turn 4. You'll have 7 cards in your opening hand and draw 3.5 cards over that time period (between play and draw). That means 66% of the miracle cards you see will be in your opening hand where they will force mulligans. Now Vexing Devil, that's another story. That you WANT in your opening hand. But Reforge is shit in burn and in RUG Delver as well (why? You don't have enough burn to use it as super reach and your "A" gameplan, tempo them out, is hampered when you spend 2 turns wasting and stifling only to then HAND them more land). It's potentially playable in U/R Delver. It's probably really good in storm and it may make Welder Stax viable again. But as far as existing archetypes go, there isn't a single deck out there that's a real deck right now that wants the card.

That having been said, I won't be surprised at all to see new decks pop up that cause problems in the format.

[ScatmanX]

Hag Hedge-Mage
+Astral Slide
+Various Miracles
+Cycling Lands
---------------------------------

PLEASE post a decklist that uses this.
This seems fun as hell.

[(nameless one)]

I know this off subject, but New Orleans is below sea level. Katrina was a shit show because it was a mix of ignorant people, ignorant government, and lazy levee engineers. Combine that with the fact that a Catergory five hurricane (almost the size of the gulf of mexico) brought a massive tidal surge into a city that is literally bowl shaped. Also, New Orleans wasn't the only place devastated by the storm, the whole coastline from Louisiana to Alabama was devastated.

I am sorry but try not to compare something like Hurricane Katrina to anything unless you have seen it first hand.

Comparing the two storms are like comparing that one time you got into a fight at school to the Columbine Shooting.


That was my point. It's essentially Wheel of Fate (the one that barely sees play) vs Reforge the Soul (the one that will brew the shitstorm)

[dontbiteitholmes]

Miracle Wheel is legit after testing. I don't know if it's broken, but it certainly is playable at worst and potentially nuts.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Odds that Miracle Wheel will be banned inside of six-nine months: 50%, imo.

Or that it'll cause something else in a deck with it to get banned; LED, B. Wish, Past in Flames, Tendrils, etc..

[SpikeyMikey]

Odds that Miracle Wheel will be banned inside of six-nine months: 50%, imo.

Or that it'll cause something else in a deck with it to get banned; LED, B. Wish, Past in Flames, Tendrils, etc..

I'm no storm guru, but I'm having one hell of a time trying to put together a good storm listing using this card. Not that I think it's not good, but RUW isn't getting there. The tension between the artifact sources you want to run to give you some mobility out of wheel (so you don't necessarily have to get to 7 mana before you can use it) and the sorceries that are nuts with PiF is very difficult to control. There's just not enough room to run enough dig, enough acceleration and enough disruption. Don't get me wrong, Reforge is amazing and once my version gathers steam, it's unstoppable. You can draw your entire deck and storm for 60+, but it's significantly slower to goldfish than ANT or even High Tide. I was hoping for something that could consistently go off turn 2, and this isn't it. Maybe WBR or UBR would be better, but I like having the heavy red rituals to support PiF and Reforge.

Does anyone have a *good* storm list using RtS? C'mon storm players, this is your cup of tea, you should be on this...

[Namida]

Does anyone have a *good* storm list using RtS? C'mon storm players, this is your cup of tea, you should be on this...

Like I said, Rome wasn't built in a day--which is literally the amount of time that this card has been known to us. Look at the first decklists playing Ad Nauseam, and you'll see what I mean.

[SpikeyMikey]

I feel like you have to be playing white. There's no way to run enough disruption when you're using discard or counters in a deck with draw-7's, I learned that a dozen years ago playing Underworld Dreams. And you need more than just Wheel 2.0 for dig. I'm running 4 Reforge the Soul, 3 Faithless Looting, 2 Ponder and 2 Personal Tutors, plus 3 Gitaxian Probe and 4 Manamorphose. But then you throw in 4 Rites, 4 Seething Song and 7 Rits (I cut a Pyretic), 3 PiF and 5 Chant effects and suddenly you've only got 19 slots for win conditions and initial mana sources. That's really sketchy, especially if you have to Tutor to set up a Wheel (so you need 4 mana, 2 for Wheel and 2 to get started Ritualing again afterwards).

I thought about trying to set up a Megrim/Dreams win condition, which should cut down on the amount of acceleration you need, but you don't gain anything since you're just replacing accel slots with additonal win-con slots. If you build it glass cannon with no protection, you can get significantly more initial mana sources, but than you're just playing a worse version of Belcher/SI.

[Greenpoe]

Like I said, Rome wasn't built in a day--which is literally the amount of time that this card has been known to us. Look at the first decklists playing Ad Nauseam, and you'll see what I mean.

That's good considering how eager Wizards have been to ban stuff lately- Mystical, Survival, Misstep. Hopefully people will build not-broken storm builds for a while so Wizards thinks the card is fine and not ban it. Or, at least if it does prove to be busted, let's hope that Temporal Mastery gives a sufficient boost to control to balance everything out so the meta will adapt just fine and nothing gets banned.

[Humphrey]

Actually how can you guys say this card is bad in a belcher shell? True the lists still doesnt run protection, but so does Belcher and it wins tournaments. But adding Reforge and Pif instead of Belcher it increases the chances not to fizzle and if you do just try again next turn. Actually replace some of the cyclers with discard or Blasts and your good to go.

[Cire]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130083&d=1334548940

Lol.... with some mana elves.... I know its too expensive but a 5 mana 8/8 that makes one of your mana dorks a 5/5 is not that bad....

[dahcmai]

He's cute, but without evasion or trample, I wouldn't even think about it. Fatties just ask to get chumped in this format too much and raced by something you can't block back well with.

Anyway, back on wheel.

I can barely see using it as a 2 of in TES at the most and even then I really don't like it. It's a crappy wish target so Diminishing Returns would stay in the SB as the normal back up. The biggest problem with it is the timing of when you'd cast something like this out of that deck.

You don't want to cast it during your draw step as a top deck since you can't drop your artifact mana before then. You're even limited on how much ritual red mana you can gain before then also. Even trying to set it up at EOT so you are a little prepped into it leaves you open to a counter and stuck in top deck mode if it's countered.

As for TES, it's only good as a top deck for when you fail to punch through a counter wall. If you already failed to punch through it's probably not going to help unless you get lucky.

The only time it's decent is casting for the 5 cc alternative. It's not so bad in that case. Dump hand, use mana to cast it, etc... Might as well play Ad Nauseum at that point. It's better at getting 7 cards when you can choose to get more. I guess it might have a spot if your curve is heavy for some reason.

Past In Flames or something like a Belcher Shell seems like the only way you are going to efficiently use it.

By the way, Defense Grid is looking better and better all of a sudden with these Miracles. I went and picked me up a few just in case new Wheel has a spot somewhere. The old Draw 7 decks of Vintage used it to keep people from Force of Willing things while you showed them all your artifact mana. Safe to say that practice might be back, especially with the way you guys were talking about wanting white for disruption. This one is colorless and easy to cast out of a Belcher Shell.

[Namida]

I think that trying to shoehorn Reforge the Soul into currently established decks is a recipe for failure, so hell yes it's going to be shitty in TES. The card is comparable to Ad Nauseam, but not inferior because you can play four of them in your deck with no fear and you're allowed to play cards like extra copies of Tendrils or Past in Flames for redundancy. The card easily facilitates multiple attempts at going off too because you can just blow your whole hand into disruption and just topdeck this card to be right back into the game. I can't say that I'm a champion deckbuilder so I can't just spit a decklist out to substantiate my claim, but I think it's definitely shortsighted to assume that the only way you can use this card is to play it in something you could equate to Belcher.

[Lord Seth]

Reforge the Soul

first reaction: "Oh shit! Oh no, they did it ... at 2cc!"

first thoughts:
- ridiculously broken: Wheel of Fortune at 2cc, why didn't they make the miracle cost 2R like the original (banned) Wheel of Fortune?Wheel of Fate had its cost be 1R and was fine. Its downside (the wait) counteracted the lower mana cost and we ended up with a card that was absolutely not broken.

Now to be fair, I believe Wheel of Fate's drawback was more hampering than this card's drawback. Still, you can't just point to the cost by itself and declare it broken.
Even the normal cost at 5cc seems playable.Wheel of Fortune at 5 mana likely isn't broken.
And it doesn't remove itself like Temporal Mastery does!This is open to nowhere near as much abuse as Temporal Mastery would have been had it gone to the graveyard.

- It is perfect for Burn: Why would anybody now play something different than Burn? Burn got a lot of really strong spells with Avacyn Restored (Devil, Wrath, Reforge).It looks awful for burn. By the time drawing the card would be useful, you want to have won already, which is hampered if you draw the card before that point.

I do think the card will see play, but I doubt it'll be in burn.


- I'm almost certain that it will be banned very soon. If even Mark Rosewater said that it might happen ...!When and where did he say this again?

[KobeBryan]

Wheel of Fate had its cost be 1R and was fine. Its downside (the wait) counteracted the lower mana cost and we ended up with a card that was absolutely not broken.

Now to be fair, I believe Wheel of Fate's drawback was more hampering than this card's drawback. Still, you can't just point to the cost by itself and declare it broken.Wheel of Fortune at 5 mana likely isn't broken.This is open to nowhere near as much abuse as Temporal Mastery would have been had it gone to the graveyard.
It looks awful for burn. By the time drawing the card would be useful, you want to have won already, which is hampered if you draw the card before that point.

I do think the card will see play, but I doubt it'll be in burn.

When and where did he say this again?


Thats crazy. Burn decks biggest problem is when the deck topdecks. I don't know how many times you aren't able to draw business. Being able to just refill your hand for 2 mana would be enough to push the deck through for the finish.

[ivanpei]

I think we have to go UR or URB with the new wheel of fortune. Card has the potential to be busted especially with past in flames. The only problem with the miracle cost is that you can only play it during your draw step which is good for refilling your hand after fizzing but not too great otherwise. @ 5 mana, I don't see it being too great. Even diminishing returns with 3 mana floating ends up bricking at times.

Btw I'm guessing with can't float mana from upkeep to draw step to do something bonkers with the miracle wheel? Man I miss those led-mystical-ad nauseum days when you could float mana to draw step and go crazy.

The deck needs blue for cantrip and needs black for protection/extra rituals. I'm not sure if chant can be fitted in due to the intense colour requirements.

What about UR straight ledless? LED was busted with infernal and burning wish. Adnauseun also limited the amount of high cc cards the deck could play. Now that you can run 4 wheel 2.0 and personal tutor to find wheel, why play LED-wish-infernal? You can also play pact of negation now! LED/petals are also bad with past in flame.

4 rite of flame
4 desperate ritual
4 pyretic ritual
4 seething song
4 lotus petal
4 simian spirit guide
4 manamorphose

4 wheel 2.0
2 Personal tutor
1 past in flame
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
1 grapeshot
4 pact of negation

16 lands

[dontbiteitholmes]

Odds that Miracle Wheel will be banned inside of six-nine months: 50%, imo.

Or that it'll cause something else in a deck with it to get banned; LED, B. Wish, Past in Flames, Tendrils, etc..

The main problem with relying on Wheel is that Surgical Extraction is heavily played. If you Personal Tutor for it Extraction ruins that plan, if you Wheel and put a card you need in the yard you just let them draw 7 cards that are potentially Force, Flusterstorm, Pierce, Mindbreak Trap, Surgical, ect. all of which potentially could ruin your day.

[Suneloon]

Personal Tutor will off course see a lot in Legacy right after Avacyn Restored comes out, but I don't think it will not become a staple. It is simply to easely disrupted (Surgical Extraction, Thought Scour, Predict etc.) It is NOT Mysical Tutor!

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The main problem with relying on Wheel is that Surgical Extraction is heavily played. If you Personal Tutor for it Extraction ruins that plan, if you Wheel and put a card you need in the yard you just let them draw 7 cards that are potentially Force, Flusterstorm, Pierce, Mindbreak Trap, Surgical, ect. all of which potentially could ruin your day.

To be clear, I don't think the deck will be the return of Hulk-Flash, but it doesn't really have to be. Wizards has stepped in to nerf combo for much less dominance (see; Mystical Tutor.)

If the format is blue vs. combo, I think they'll step in.

[dontbiteitholmes]

In most cases Wheel seems to just return Combo to it's previous role of completely curb-stomping decks that don't play blue. Whether or not it's worth it depends of how good it is vs. blue decks, and that variable is a little bit past what I can reasonably test by myself. We'll just have to see what happens, but this card seems capable of undoing all the work done by hatebears in evening up the combo matchup for non-blue decks. Worst case scenario I could see this being banned, but given all the tools we have as Legacy players I think seeing play after the 5th is the best way to determine whether it's broken or not.



EDIT: Posted right after IBA, didn't see his post. I pretty much agree. I don't think the card is going to break combo wide open, but it could make it near impossible for decks like Maverick to exist. For that reason I doubt it will last forever. In the mean time Mindbreak Trap seems a lot more playable.

[Offler]

In terms of EDH and german Highlander I see many cards to be autoincluded in Kaalia decks just because they are good for such format (high mana cost).

What really impresses me is Tamyio - new blue planeswalker. At CMC 5 its +1 ability works as Icy Manipulator, its -2 as some kind of sorcery for drawing, and -8 can be misused for any blue combo deck.

None of previous blue planeswalkers fit into blue as much. Good effects which need brain.

The red planeswalker is also surprise to me. Chaotic, low costed, but cannot be taken lightly.

[Suneloon]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130096&d=1334558088

For some sort of black stax?

Edit: yea well maybe not... When stax works, ur opp usually has a full grip, so being able to choose to discard to save permanents, is an option you DON'T want him to have...

[blaat]

BRAINSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Appetite-for-Brains-Avacyn-Restored-Spoiler.jpg

Very nice card with the exile effect.
No past if flames for you, my friend.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130096&d=1334558088

For some sort of black stax?

Edit: yea well maybe not... When stax works, ur opp usually has a full grip, so being able to choose to discard to save permanents, is an option you DON'T want him to have...

Not to mention the part where exiling prevents you from doing Crucible tricks.

Can't think of a use for this card. Since you already run Chalice in Stax, Braids would still be better if you just want more Smokestacks.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Not to mention the part where exiling prevents you from doing Crucible tricks.

Can't think of a use for this card. Since you already run Chalice in Stax, Braids would still be better if you just want more Smokestacks.

Worm Harvest for casual maybe, but yeah no "real" uses.

[lordofthepit]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130096&d=1334558088

For some sort of black stax?

Edit: yea well maybe not... When stax works, ur opp usually has a full grip, so being able to choose to discard to save permanents, is an option you DON'T want him to have...

Combos with Stasis to cause your opponent to rage.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

AND it's not optional AND it stacks them in the detrimental order. Yeah, this ain't no good.

[Final Fortune]

I feel like you have to be playing white. There's no way to run enough disruption when you're using discard or counters in a deck with draw-7's, I learned that a dozen years ago playing Underworld Dreams. And you need more than just Wheel 2.0 for dig. I'm running 4 Reforge the Soul, 3 Faithless Looting, 2 Ponder and 2 Personal Tutors, plus 3 Gitaxian Probe and 4 Manamorphose. But then you throw in 4 Rites, 4 Seething Song and 7 Rits (I cut a Pyretic), 3 PiF and 5 Chant effects and suddenly you've only got 19 slots for win conditions and initial mana sources. That's really sketchy, especially if you have to Tutor to set up a Wheel (so you need 4 mana, 2 for Wheel and 2 to get started Ritualing again afterwards).

I thought about trying to set up a Megrim/Dreams win condition, which should cut down on the amount of acceleration you need, but you don't gain anything since you're just replacing accel slots with additonal win-con slots. If you build it glass cannon with no protection, you can get significantly more initial mana sources, but than you're just playing a worse version of Belcher/SI.

You're doing it wrong; Seething Song and Red Cabal Rituals are unplayable, Orim's Chant and Silence are unsupportable, Manamorphose to convert red mana into black mana is completely unnecessary compared to Dark Ritual, Gitaxian Probe serves absolutely no purpose when you're not playing Cabal Therapy, Cabal Ritual or Doomsday, Faithless Looting as a cantrip in a deck that's trying to manipulate its top decks is totally retarded.

Edit: I'm also not certain 4xing this thing is the right idea, the synergy with Brainstorm has been more of an ancillary benefit and space is quite tight.
I'm not certain whether or not Infernal Tutor and Lion's Eye Diamond should be cut, but cutting them does give you more flexibility in your acceleration and disruption if you want to play Cabal Ritual and Red Elemental Blast/Pyro Blast. So far I've just tried URB with Infernal Tutor and Lion's Eye Diamond and Duress and Defense Grid and it seems to be working out ok. I'm really digging how awesome it is to be able to play with Simian Spirit Guide again

[Sloshthedark]

you have to roll over him when you D7, that means Tutors, more PiF more Tendrils
D7 is something you want to play only once

red rituals are bad playing 3 colors, you need just R or RR which LED provides cutting it seems stupid, 7-10 rituals are enough, playing Burning wish that would be a problem

I'd imagine traditional UBr Storm -Ad Nauseam - 2(3,4) preordain -2(1)Grim Tutor +Miracle +PiF +Tendrils +2 Personal Tutor. maybe -1 discard +Warrens and -1 petal +something or better deck like Grinding Station +Tops as a starting point

I don't think this would be faster or strictly better, D7 adds element of randomness same as Ad Nauseam maybe even more, though life independent it's a risk PiF Ant likes to avoid... maybe some 4C like Doomsday will adopt it, the cantrips and protection shell supports it best but I dunno the deck really needs it, more likely resulting into Personal Tutor toolbox including Doomsday

[catmint]

EDIT: Posted right after IBA, didn't see his post. I pretty much agree. I don't think the card is going to break combo wide open, but it could make it near impossible for decks like Maverick to exist. For that reason I doubt it will last forever. In the mean time Mindbreak Trap seems a lot more playable.

I disagree. If combo wins versus decks playing discard & counterspells or counter/top then the format is broken. If not, these decks beating combo will become more popular and eventually reduce combos success. Since Maverick has an edge over the "combo-beaters" I cannot see it dying.

[Tao]

meanwhile, in Green

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130088&stc=1&d=1334549290

[SpikeyMikey]

You're doing it wrong; Seething Song and Red Cabal Rituals are unplayable, Orim's Chant and Silence are unsupportable, Manamorphose to convert red mana into black mana is completely unnecessary compared to Dark Ritual, Gitaxian Probe serves absolutely no purpose when you're not playing Cabal Therapy, Cabal Ritual or Doomsday, Faithless Looting as a cantrip in a deck that's trying to manipulate its top decks is totally retarded.

Edit: I'm also not certain 4xing this thing is the right idea, the synergy with Brainstorm has been more of an ancillary benefit and space is quite tight.
I'm not certain whether or not Infernal Tutor and Lion's Eye Diamond should be cut, but cutting them does give you more flexibility in your acceleration and disruption if you want to play Cabal Ritual and Red Elemental Blast/Pyro Blast. So far I've just tried URB with Infernal Tutor and Lion's Eye Diamond and Duress and Defense Grid and it seems to be working out ok. I'm really digging how awesome it is to be able to play with Simian Spirit Guide again

Wasn't running black. RUw. The thing with Manamorphose really isn't the color filtering, it's the fact that it draws 2 cards in a PiF deck at 0 mana cost. Ditto Gitpro.

[Gui]

meanwhile, in Green

There should be a format: "Play only green cards" -> Fairest format ever!

[dontbiteitholmes]

I disagree. If combo wins versus decks playing discard & counterspells or counter/top then the format is broken. If not, these decks beating combo will become more popular and eventually reduce combos success. Since Maverick has an edge over the "combo-beaters" I cannot see it dying.

Yeah, I'm willing to let this one play out and see what happens. In my testing the card seems very good, it will probably take everyone a while to figure out exactly what to do with it. I have a list I may try out at SCG Madison depending what else is in the set. I'm completely fine with combo getting a strong card, but there is a line between great and completely broken. I just hope if this ends up being a mistake they pull the plug instead of using it as an excuse to ban LED. In the end we won't know until at least a month after release.

[I am the brainwasher]

There should be a format: "Play only green cards" -> Fairest format ever!

If the banned list contains the following: Forest
then, yes.
Not that it would stop anyone from wanting Brainstorm to get banned in this format too though... .

[Barook]

meanwhile, in Green
I like it, especially as a potential GSZ target due to making ALL of your creatures unblockable, even your big beaters like KotR.

Should work very well with Swords of X and Y and other pump spells.

[rufus]

I like [Champion of Lambholt], especially as a potential GSZ target due to making ALL of your creatures unblockable, even your big beaters like KotR.

Should work very well with Swords of X and Y and other pump spells.

Could also be interesting with creature producing combos like Food Chain or Aluren.

[Tao]

Hmm, I dont think it is playble outside of Limited. I was just trying to be a bit sarcastic about how Green just doesn't get anything useful.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

There should be a format: "Play only green cards" -> Fairest format ever!

Sigged.

[DragoFireheart]

There should be a format: "Play only green cards" -> Fairest format ever!

Everyone playing elves or infect stompy sounds worse than Modern.

[xfxf]

T1: Forest, GSZ -> Arbor
T2: Land, ESG, Sac Arbor into Natural Order -> Prog

Or maybe Survival?

I'd say white is the fairest color.

[joven]

Just wondered: Is Ghostly Flicker on High Tided Islands any good??
Untapping two Islands for 2U at instant speed and increasing the storm count by 1.

[xfxf]

Could double as Turnabout I guess but then you lose the utility of Turnabout to tap opponents lands and creatures plus it's only 2 lands as opposed to the 3-4 lands from Turnabout.

[JDK]

I disagree. If combo wins versus decks playing discard & counterspells or counter/top then the format is broken. If not, these decks beating combo will become more popular and eventually reduce combos success. Since Maverick has an edge over the "combo-beaters" I cannot see it dying.
Fuck, I broke the format this saturday by beating CounterTop 2:0 with Spiral Tide.


Just wondered: Is Ghostly Flicker on High Tided Islands any good??
Untapping two Islands for 2U at instant speed and increasing the storm count by 1.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20172-PRIMER-Spiral-Tide&p=634125&viewfull=1#post634125

Plus, untapping 2 for 3 mana is not good enough. 2 for 2 would be something I'd test.

[Infinitium]

Ghostly Flicker on Islands is definetly not good. Ghostly Flicker on Cloud of Faeries and/or Snapcaster Mage is probably not good.

Or it might just revitalize Spring Tide.

[Gheizen64]

The WR land doesn't look bad. It's probably pretty good outside Legacy. In legacy, dunno. Still, the ability to turn any topdeck in an hasted +2+0 creature is pretty useful for weenie decks. Wolfrun was better as a lategame bomb, but the haste is incredibly relevant since you don't give your opponent a turn to respond (important against PWs), and the ability is less mana intensive.

http://www.rebellion.es/img/mr/rumormill/avacynrestored/fortaleza.jpg

[Barook]

It's a reuseable, mini flashbacked Reckless Charge that also grants you vigilance.

That's pretty decent, especially with Vial.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I'm going to be surprised at this rate if Boros doesn't end up as a DTB in Modern.

[GGoober]

Chant into Wheel of Fortune x4 GG?

Seems incredibly retarded with Past in Flame as well. If it doesn't fit into TES, I'm sure some form of combo will be based on RtS

[TsumiBand]

It's a reuseable, mini flashbacked Reckless Charge that also grants you vigilance.

That's pretty decent, especially with Vial.

If you're using Vial, shouldn't your guys already have been in play since your upkeep, though? (ideally anyway)

Reckless Charge is probably better than this. Its actual casting cost lets it be aggressive and its flashback may as well cost the same as this land's activation cost (RW and tap may as well be 3 mana, right?), the only advantage here is that it can't be countered outside of Stifle effects. Looks cute though.

[ThomasDowd]

a draw 7 that costs 5 is pretty good, but needs to be built around, the amount of times you can abuse the discount will be few and far between and are only good if have literally nothing and need to refill. it is a good reload for a deck that empties it's hand quickly in miracle mode. otherwise I'd almost rather play D returns or just AN in a storm shell. the fact that it draws your opponent a fresh seven as well is a little annoying. and the fact that it only draws seven. not relying on life total is pretty great though.

I guess people forget that you can play a draw seven in a mono blue shell with a bunch of counter back up that is pretty much free at 6 mana, and often gains you mana. but hey. whatever.

[hi-val]

Reckless Charge also takes up spell slots, where this takes up land slots. You can get a little more out of something you have to play already. It makes me think of this article:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/15432_Arcane_Teachings_Lands_Are_Awesome.html

[Nihil Credo]

That RW land looks really, really good. +2/+0 vigilance haste is a powerful buff in pretty much any situation, but there are going to be some decks that get exceptional benefits: for example, Thalia as a first striker benefits a lot more from the extra power, Knight of the Reliquary loves vigilance, and I wonder if Show and Tell decks might even end up splashing for it just so they can Haste up Emrakul (how often do they have three leftover mana? genuine question).

[dontbiteitholmes]

That RW land looks really, really good. +2/+0 vigilance haste is a powerful buff in pretty much any situation, but there are going to be some decks that get exceptional benefits: for example, Thalia as a first striker benefits a lot more from the extra power, Knight of the Reliquary loves vigilance, and I wonder if Show and Tell decks might even end up splashing for it just so they can Haste up Emrakul (how often do they have three leftover mana? genuine question).

Almost never

[Barook]

If you're using Vial, shouldn't your guys already have been in play since your upkeep, though? (ideally anyway)

Reckless Charge is probably better than this. Its actual casting cost lets it be aggressive and its flashback may as well cost the same as this land's activation cost (RW and tap may as well be 3 mana, right?), the only advantage here is that it can't be countered outside of Stifle effects. Looks cute though.
Aside from taking a land spot instead of a spell slot, don't forget that Reckless Charge is always card disadvantage, no matter how you look at it.

As much as I love Reckless Charge, it's terrible in a format like Legacy with lots of creatures and cheap removal.

About the haste thing: What about topdecked dudes? You can strike right now instead of next turn due to pseudo-haste.

The more I think about it, the more I like this land. Turning excess mana into extra damage while keeping your defense up is pretty good.

At the very least, it might become a KotR target for decks that also run red.

[Lord Seth]

Thats crazy. Burn decks biggest problem is when the deck topdecks. I don't know how many times you aren't able to draw business. Being able to just refill your hand for 2 mana would be enough to push the deck through for the finish.The problem is, as I pointed out, if you don't draw it at just the right time it sits in your hand useless instead of having a card there that could potentially deliver the final blow. I'm very dubious about whether a card that's useful only if drawn later in the game (a phase Burn wants to avoid in the first place) would be superior to just having another Burn spell that would bring you closer to winning the game in the first place and would work whether drawn at the start or later.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The WR land doesn't look bad. It's probably pretty good outside Legacy. In legacy, dunno. Still, the ability to turn any topdeck in an hasted +2+0 creature is pretty useful for weenie decks. Wolfrun was better as a lategame bomb, but the haste is incredibly relevant since you don't give your opponent a turn to respond (important against PWs), and the ability is less mana intensive.

http://www.rebellion.es/img/mr/rumormill/avacynrestored/fortaleza.jpg

Holy fuck. They must've moved all the power from the DA utili-lands over to AVR. Both of the ones we've seen so far are completely Legacy playable.

[trivial_matters]

I'm thinking the +2/0, hast and vigilance land might be good in Zoo, perhaps in Big Zoo.

EDIT: I'm not sure if it'd be better than Kessig Wolf Run in Big Zoo though. And there are only some many utility lands you can cram in a deck.

[Ignithas_]

Aside from taking a land spot instead of a spell slot, don't forget that Reckless Charge is always card disadvantage, no matter how you look at it.

As much as I love Reckless Charge, it's terrible in a format like Legacy with lots of creatures and cheap removal.

About the haste thing: What about topdecked dudes? You can strike right now instead of next turn due to pseudo-haste.

The more I think about it, the more I like this land. Turning excess mana into extra damage while keeping your defense up is pretty good.

At the very least, it might become a KotR target for decks that also run red.
You have to consider, that you will weaken your Landbase with this card. So you have to ask yourself the following question: Is it worth it? Can another utility land provide you with more bang for your bucks? And there are many utility lands, that are strong in Legacy.

[TsumiBand]

Well even more than wondering if another land can do this, just thinking of it as a re-usable effect seems like the wrong way to look at it. Card advantage/disadvantage, IMO, is tantamount to asking yourself "what else could I have done with 1RW"? We're either looking at dropping something you topdeck via Vial and then giving it haste/vigilance for 1RW, or topdecking something and casting it and THEN giving it haste for 1RW. If it didn't tap for colorless maybe it wouldn't present a potential stumbling block in a deck whose colors are already going for an aggressive fast win; that's primarily why I think Reckless Charge does more, sooner. It sure looks cute, but eh.

[Suneloon]

You have to consider, that you will weaken your Landbase with this card. So you have to ask yourself the following question: Is it worth it? Can another utility land provide you with more bang for your bucks? And there are many utility lands, that are strong in Legacy.

I agree. Theese new lands are indeed very cool, but Legacy simply offers better options. You could pull off some cool combat tricks with this thing. But would't you rather simply have a Mishra's Factory or even a Horizon Canopy?

[TorpidNinja]

I agree. Theese new lands are indeed very cool, but Legacy simply offers better options. You could pull off some cool combat tricks with this thing. But would't you rather simply have a Mishra's Factory or even a Horizon Canopy?

I'd love to live the dream and haste up a Factory, attack without tapping, and then tap the Factory to pump it further.

[matunos]

If you're using Vial, shouldn't your guys already have been in play since your upkeep, though? (ideally anyway)


Not with Birthing Pod, though (for Standard).

[Mr. Safety]

Just throwing this out there:

R/u Storm:

3x Past in Flames
3x Reforge the Soul
4x Burning Wish
3x Overmaster
4x Rite of Flame
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Seething Song
4x Manamorphose
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Brain Freeze
4x Lotus Petal
3x Volcanic Island
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Island
2x Mountain


Set up miracle draw 7's like a champ with Brainstorm, Ponder, and Manamorphose. Graveyard fodder feeds Past in Flames. I hope I can get 3-4 of these Reforge the Soul...

[Gheizen64]

I'd love to live the dream and haste up a Factory, attack without tapping, and then tap the Factory to pump it further.

Living the good dream.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm thinking the +2/0, hast and vigilance land might be good in Zoo, perhaps in Big Zoo.

EDIT: I'm not sure if it'd be better than Kessig Wolf Run in Big Zoo though. And there are only some many utility lands you can cram in a deck.

Top deck Wild Nacatl, swing for 5. Top deck Qasali Pridemage, swing for 5. Top deck Goyf, swing for 6-8. Nice. I like it as a 1-of in a zoo deck that packs a healthy amount of Sylvan Library's (2-3.)

[Infinitium]

..Shouldn't you be more concerned about pumping Nacatl and be able to cast Pridemage in the first 2 turns rather than being tricky on turn 5?

Sure the opportunity cost of playing a colorless land isn't all that great, but neither are the gains of either card in the cycle spoiled this far. There are only so many colorless lands fitting in a manabase, and neither of those would be consistently better than Waste/Factory/Ruins/Tower imo. Maybe the second can get a spot in GWr Maverick for KotR shenanigans but that's the only non-corner case use I can see really.

[Mr. Safety]

It's not about being tricky...it's about getting decent mileage out of late-game top decks that would normally be 'meh'.

[hi-val]

You have to consider, that you will weaken your Landbase with this card. So you have to ask yourself the following question: Is it worth it? Can another utility land provide you with more bang for your bucks? And there are many utility lands, that are strong in Legacy.

I'll also note that it's a legitimate play to run lands in spell slots. If you normally run 23 land in a bigger Zoo deck, you can run 25 and support these.

[DrJones]

Back when blue was the only winning color in legacy and there wasn't any way to stop blue tempo decks to free timewalking you (I said back then but it's still true), I had one idea to balance Legacy. I thought it was good to have blue tempo ravage combo decks and some other decks in the meta, as long as at least one archtype in the meta was impervious to counterspells, forcing those decks to pack other forms of disruption instead of just a bunch of free counters.

I contacted MtgAaron on twitter and passed him a card idea via the WotC wiki (http://community.wizards.com/magicthegathering/wiki/Labs:Gds/gds2/DrJones/Card_Suggestions_for_Legacy). Any card on the WotC wiki automatically belongs to WotC, so they can actually see if the idea has merit and can be used by them. That was the card I suggested:


***CLARIFICATION: CARD I ORIGINALLY SUGGESTED. NOT ACTUALLY PRINTED ON AVACYN RESTORED***
Artifact-deck enabler
Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool. If that mana is spent on an artifact spell, that spell can't be countered by spells or abilities.
Sacrifice THIS: Add 1 to your mana pool.
***CLARIFICATION: CARD I ORIGINALLY SUGGESTED. NOT ACTUALLY PRINTED ON AVACYN RESTORED***

The idea was giving aggro chalice/trinisphere decks a tool against blue tempo that couldn't be abused by belcher, the only fast combo deck that relies on casting an artifact to win. I chose artifacts because white, green and red had plenty of tools to deal with artifacts, so making blue weak against artifacts decks felt fair. It couldn't enter the battlefield tapped, and I added the sacrifice clause so that it could replace one of the 2-mana lands as aggro chalice/trinisphere decks couldn't add yet another colorless land to their build.

Inalienable Key aspects: Being a LAND. Being a MANA ABILITY. That means it can't be countered, it can't be stifled, and it can't protect 0 mana artifacts.

I felt pushed to come here and write this long explanation after I've found the following rumored card from Avacyn's Restored on the rumor mill (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=408979):

***THIS IS THE ONE THAT YOU'LL FIND IN BOOSTERS***
Awesome Land
Land
As CARDNAME enters the battlefield, choose a creature type.
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spent this mana only to play a creature of the chosen type. That creature cannot be countered.

This card basically does all the things I asked WotC to do, and it's actually more fair than the one I suggested. I'm confident now that thanks to this card legacy will stop being the bluefest it has been since forever. I'm a happy man now! :cool:

[joemauer]

You are finally getting your wish DrJones, a way to circumvent Force of Will!

It would be funny if rumored land just makes Snapcaster Mage more powerful.

Edit: Assuming the rumored land is for real, this set may have the biggest impact on Legacy in most rececnt years.

[Vacrix]

Are you kidding? I'd find a way to play that in Belcher dude. Think about post-board. You could board those in. As long as you can land Belcher, blue usually loses unless they board in Pithing Needle. Misfires are irrelevant if you can Belch again. Trust me, thats my post-board plan in PSI and it works like a fucking charm. I board IN 2 lands.

[Zinch]

Are you kidding? I'd find a way to play that in Belcher dude. Think about post-board. You could board those in. As long as you can land Belcher, blue usually loses unless they board in Pithing Needle. Misfires are irrelevant if you can Belch again. Trust me, thats my post-board plan in PSI and it works like a fucking charm. I board IN 2 lands.

I think you missunderstood DrJones... the rumored land is the second one

I saw the land in mtgsalvation and thought in my (long forgotten in the shelf) goblin deck... may this land be enough to make it playable again?

[Humphrey]

Goblins is playable since MM ban.

[JDK]

I saw the land in mtgsalvation and thought in my (long forgotten in the shelf) goblin deck... may this land be enough to make it playable again?

Thought exactly the same.

[(nameless one)]

Are you kidding me? I'm running that land on MUD. Can't counter my Wurmcoil bitches! Take that blue-base tempo!

[morgan_coke]

Pretty positive that's not a real land.

[markbris]

Pretty positive that's not a real land.

It can't be the way he has it written. They are figuring its either completely fake or he's leaving something out like legendary, CIPT, no colorless mana, somethin lke that. Prolly CIPT if anything i bet.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Delver and Snapcaster are both Humans.

[Freggle]

Avacyn Restored is the most exciting set for Magic the Gathering since Future Sight, and possibly ever.

If the above land is real this set is re-donk.

[majikal]

I have no reason to believe the land is fake. The guy that posted it was cracking packs and posting pictures of some of the cards.

[Vacrix]

I think you missunderstood DrJones... the rumored land is the second one

I saw the land in mtgsalvation and thought in my (long forgotten in the shelf) goblin deck... may this land be enough to make it playable again?
No I certainly didn't misunderstand him. I don't take issue with it being real or not, that wasn't the point. He said it would be a land that Belcher cannot abuse.. because its a land.. so only MUD and such would play it. But Belcher could easily abuse it post-board because if they land Belcher they win eventually. The deck has over 40 mana so if you land it, your opponent needs to put a really good clock on you if they want to live. Its an uncounterable protection spell for Belcher. Every Belcher deck would play 4 in the board.

EDIT:
This was also spoiled.. but the source is hard to confirm because the card is faded and in a different language.. but:
1R
Instant
Discard your hand, then draw (2 or 3, can't remember) cards.
Common

If its draw 3, I can see Burn running that to refill their hand.

[Kich867]

No I certainly didn't misunderstand him. I don't take issue with it being real or not, that wasn't the point. He said it would be a land that Belcher cannot abuse.. because its a land.. so only MUD and such would play it. But Belcher could easily abuse it post-board because if they land Belcher they win eventually. The deck has over 40 mana so if you land it, your opponent needs to put a really good clock on you if they want to live. Its an uncounterable protection spell for Belcher. Every Belcher deck would play 4 in the board.

EDIT:
This was also spoiled.. but the source is hard to confirm because the card is faded and in a different language.. but:
1R
Instant
Discard your hand, then draw (2 or 3, can't remember) cards.
Common

If its draw 3, I can see Burn running that to refill their hand.

Wow ... O_O;; If this is true, this is going to be a pretty sick card for burn. For combo even, I mean, why not right? Play all your stuff, put this on the stack, crack an LED or two in response, keep digging..

[Greenpoe]

Pretty positive that's not a real land.

It's not even that good. Vial already makes creatures un-counterable, plus it accelerates.

[Oiolosse]

No way that would be instant. Too powerful. It would need to be sorcery or at least 2R.

Entreat the Angles looks awesome in UW Control.

[joemauer]

It's not even that good. Vial already makes creatures un-counterable, plus it accelerates.

Actually, more often than not, vial decelerates your creature output.

Also, this [hypothetical]land makes mana. Vial does not.

[majikal]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130146&d=1334637018

Well here's an answer to Delver, Lavamancer, Snapcaster Mage, almost all of Maverick, Dark Confidant, etc.

I hope we see a white one for W that says "Exile target nonhuman creature."

[dontbiteitholmes]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130146&d=1334637018

Well here's an answer to Delver, Lavamancer, almost all of Maverick, Dark Confidant, etc.

I like this card. Probably a better use of SB space to be found w/o it but still interesting option.

[morgan_coke]

Stoneforge Mystic isn't human. It's Kor.

[Vacrix]

Looks sick, but I accidentally read it in an asian voice; 'Human Fratality'. Almost thought WotC went all Engrish on us.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Looks sick, but I accidentally read it in an asian voice; 'Human Fratality'. Almost thought WotC went all Engrish on us.

I took the gf to a sushi place one time we walk in and an asian lady walks up and ask, "You want to sit at Hibachi Bar or Shushee," and without even thinking about if the gf replies "Shushee."

[majikal]

Doh, you're right. SFM isn't human at all. Fixed.

[Vacrix]

Too bad you can't destroy your opponent with it.

[Vacrix]

Currently tweaking Reforge the Nuts.dec

This shit is savagely fast.

[heroicraptor]

I can see the headline now: "Teen murders friend; claims card game told him to"

[Vacrix]

Lol. Your opponent sets down his deck, his playmat, his dice, and his gun.

[majikal]

Destroy target nonblack playa.

[caiomarcos]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130146&d=1334637018

Well here's an answer to Delver, Lavamancer, Snapcaster Mage, almost all of Maverick, Dark Confidant, etc.

I hope we see a white one for W that says "Exile target nonhuman creature."

holy shit look at that art! that name! badass card is badass, love it already. had the flavor been less specific about the setting it would become one of my favorite cards. hoping for a reprint with real world flavor.

[RJM]

Anyone see this one yet?


Monster Cave
Land (R)

When Monster Cave enters the battlefield, choose a creature type.
: Add 1 to your mana pool.
: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to play a creature of the chosen type. That creature cannot be countered.

NOTE: Name is unconfirmed.

[Kich867]

Anyone see this one yet?

There's discussion about it within the last page :eyebrow:..

[Koby]

Are you kidding me? I'm running that land on MUD. Can't counter my Wurmcoil bitches! Take that blue-base tempo!

Resolves. Plow your duder.

[Aggro_zombies]

I cannot see a land that only makes one theoretical mana at a time being good.

In fact, I don't think any of the lands they've shown so far have been good. The looting land is closest to being good, but the decks that exist in those colors do not want that effect on a land. It seems like you'd be better off with Jace if you're in blue.

As for Miracle Wheel, meh. Ad Nauseam exists in a better color for storm, will likely fizzle less, and doesn't require you to Chant your opponent first.

[bruizar]

That land is friggin crazy. No more daze fow and counterspell for MUD!

[Gheizen64]

Two new cards that will probably see play



Instant
Discard your hand, then draw (2 or 3, can't remember) cards.
Common


and


Land of Awesome
Land
When Land of Awesome enters the battlefield, choose a creature type.
: Add to your mana pool.
: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spent this mana only to play a creature of the chosen type. That creature cannot be countered.


If the first card say draw three, it's really, really good. Gonna play it somewhere for sure. If it say draw two, it's just good, and will still see play imho. Instant draw 2 for 1R is bonkers.


Human frailty seems slightly worse than Deathmark. Hit delver and mancer but don't hit Goyf, SFM, Dryad arbor.

[Gheizen64]

That land is friggin crazy. No more daze fow and counterspell for MUD!

Wurmcoil - Wurm
Metalworker - Construct
Lodestone - Golem
Duplicant and Phyrexian - Shapeshifter

Dunno what else?

[Hof]

If that land is real, and if it is rare, it is going to cost a lot more than Snapcaster Mage did at its peak. Everyone and their mother are going to want at least four. I don't know what to think about that.

[Quark.Nova]

Looks like its more interesting for Tribal. Goblins or combo elves may take advantage of this.

[Stall_19]

If that land is real, and if it is rare, it is going to cost a lot more than Snapcaster Mage did at its peak. Everyone and their mother are going to want at least four. I don't know what to think about that.

It's real.
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/642/cavernadeanimas.jpg

[lordofthepit]

It's real.
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/642/cavernadeanimas.jpg

Awesome.

Although I'd say the problem for Tribal decks right now isn't getting your creatures countered. It's that spot removal and sweeping removal are too efficient.

Time to brew a Slivers deck again! :laugh:

[bruizar]

Wurmcoil - Wurm
Metalworker - Construct
Lodestone - Golem
Duplicant and Phyrexian - Shapeshifter

Dunno what else?

I fail to understand your point.

[matunos]

And the nice thing is it doesn't come into play tapped, so you can hold onto it until you actually know what you want to cast.

Oh, you mean now my Geist is uncounterable too? Sorry, Pyroblast, you're gonna have to sit this one out.

Also, combos with Ghostly Flicker, I guess.

[Gheizen64]

I fail to understand your point.

U have to choose one. Dunno what's your point too.

[lordofthepit]

Question for people who still play Tribal decks.

How often do you lose because your creature actually got countered? Versus how often do you lose because your opponent had Swords/Snapcaster, Stoneforge/Jitte, Perish, Wrath, Deed, etc.?

[feline]

I can say playing one of the 3 tribal decks (Being that of goblins) I already have Vexing Shusher in the sideboard, and it's really awesome to Vial in a shusher, then force through anything I want, including pyroblasts and red elemental blasts >^,^<

In either case, I thought earlier on another post someone commenting on this land, I wasn't sure if it was true and I thought it was one of those rumors, but now that it's actually real, I can see this being pushed in a few areas, not just people trying to abuse it in type 1.5.

As for the tribes in legacy that perform, being that of elves, merfolk, and goblins, will see how things play out, but I remember reading earlier after the temporal mastery posts that someone commented they heard someone from wizards saying they released a broken card, and i wondered if it wasn't temporal mastery they were refering to, but something else, like maybe the new wheel of fortune (with conditions of course) but if they were saying that because everyone would want one of the new cards coming out, not just legacy players, then maybe they were possibly referring to this land, if not, then there could be something even more interesting yet to be revealed.

~And yes, when I play goblins, It's them getting killed that's more annoying, not so much being countered, with exceptions like forcing a turn 1 lackey or vial, which obviously slows ya down, and that card doesn't help with either of those anyhow.

[lolosoon]

At least, ElfCombo player can't cast Glimpse out of this land... oO;

Why did they make it NOT Legendary, nor whith CIPT effect ?!?

[bruizar]

U have to choose one. Dunno what's your point too.

My point is that this land is seriously awesome. This will compete with wasteland in a lot of decks. The variation of different creature types really doesn't significantly hurt this card in MUD.

[bruizar]

Question for people who still play Tribal decks.

That's where you go wrong. This card isn't a tribal exclusive. Use this card to cast Knight of the Reliquary or Delver of Secrets instead.

[lordofthepit]

That's where you go wrong. This card isn't a tribal exclusive. Use this card to cast Knight of the Reliquary or Delver of Secrets instead.

I've played with Knight of the Reliquary more than I've played with any other creature, and counterspells have never been my problem; removal has.

I'm certainly not running this in a non-tribal deck. I'm not going to play a tribal deck until the metagame shifts or better Goblins/Elves/Merfolk get printed. But I do think this has potential in something like MUD, since there's essentially no drawback. And maybe Slivers as a longshot because so many decks can't deal with an uncounterable Crystalline Sliver.

[bruizar]

I've played with Knight of the Reliquary more than I've played with any other creature, and counterspells have never been my problem; removal has.

I'm certainly not running this in a non-tribal deck. I'm not going to play a tribal deck until the metagame shifts or better Goblins/Elves/Merfolk get printed. But I do think this has potential in something like MUD, since there's essentially no drawback. And maybe Slivers as a longshot because so many decks can't deal with an uncounterable Crystalline Sliver.

It's very good in MUD, because a big problem with MUD is the high mana investments getting countered for 0, 1 or 2 mana. This card solves that problem.

KOTR, Grim Lavamancer, Noble Hierarch, Eternal Witness, Sylvan Safekeeper, Weathered Wayfarer, Mother of Runes, Thalia, Loyal Retainers are all human (depending on the build ofcourse).

Of those, Mom, Kotr and Hierarch are core. I think that's a lot of value you can get out of just 1 active Cavern of Souls.

You can protect your 2 drops like Stoneforge Mystics, Scryb Ranger and Thalia from Spell Snare or even protect Scavenging Ooze from Spell Snare if you are not GSZ'ing for it.

In case you have 1 of these on human, and you draw a non-human, you can usually just use the colorless mana anyway. You can still use colorless mana to cast GSZ or to cast Stoneforge Mystic, Thrun, Scavenging Ooze, Aven Mindcensor or an equipment card. The only thing you can't really cast is the 1-off Birds of Paradise, gaddock teeg or Qasali Pridemage (which you can still cast if you just name creature type correctly)

1st land -> Human
2nd land -> Kor or Wizard (Aven Mindcensor + Qasali Pridemage + Grim Lavamancer)
3rd land -> Whatever is left

[Suneloon]

This + hatebear > a lot of legacy combo.

I don't even think the creature type thing is THAT important. U drop it, name what u want to cast, and cast it... One activation is enough to warrent its inclusion in some decks. I mean: even if you get just one activation, it still produceds colorless!

[Basaka]

T1 - MoR (Human Cleric)
T2 - Thalia (Human soldier)
T3 - KotR (Human Knight)

I can totally see this happening...

EDIT: Noble Hierarch is also a human.

[Suneloon]

T1 - MoM (Human Cleric)
T2 - Thalia (Human soldier)
T3 - KotR (Human Knight)

I can totally see this happening...

... and a lot of decks scooping too it...

[Lemnear]

I can't see why people consider this a card FOR MUD. Consider this:

MUD: "andient tomb, chalice of the void @ 1! Hahahaha"
Maverick/Elves/goblins/whatever: "cavern of souls, Hierarch/goblin lackey/MoR/Llanowar/whatever"
MUD: "Wtf?!"

This Card makes chalice and counterbalance unplayable

[Hopo]

This Card makes chalice and counterbalance unplayable

You must be talking of Green Sun's Zenith?

Chalice is actually super good when masses are playing burn and RUG. Chalice and Counterbalance haven't been good against aggro decks in ages, if ever.

[bruizar]

I can't see why people consider this a card FOR MUD. Consider this:

MUD: "andient tomb, chalice of the void @ 1! Hahahaha"
Maverick/Elves/goblins/whatever: "cavern of souls, Hierarch/goblin lackey/MoR/Llanowar/whatever"
MUD: "Wtf?!"

This Card makes chalice and counterbalance unplayable

Playing this card means you need to make space in your deck, which will often mean cutting Wasteland. The big question is, in what numbers will Cavern of Souls be played in non-tribal decks? The options are 4/0, 3/1, 2/2, 1/3, 0/4 split with Wasteland.

This card doesn't make chalice of the void unplayable though. Chalice is mainly used for taking out Brainstorm and Swords to Plowshares, the 2 best cards in legacy, which it still does even with Cavern of Souls around. Counterbalance doesn't like Cavern of Souls at all.