Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SIMMERING POT OF FECAL MATTER]

[SpikeyMikey]

Wow ... O_O;; If this is true, this is going to be a pretty sick card for burn. For combo even, I mean, why not right? Play all your stuff, put this on the stack, crack an LED or two in response, keep digging..

Meh. It'd have to be 3 and even then I'm not sure it'd see play. Night's Whisper doesn't see play anymore...

[DLifshitz]

Stifle is a reasonable answer against this card

Mana abilities can't be targeted.

[catmint]

Chalice is not strong because of countering mavericks one drops...its strong because it counters the best/most efficient non creature spells. Counterbalance is already unplayable because of Maverick, so I do not see a big change happening.

If Maverick can really adopt this MD, counterspells which were not strong versus Maverick so far just got a little worse. ... I like that, since it requires more intelligent deck design/meta gaming if the blue shell is challenged a little more.

[Gheizen64]

This + hatebear > a lot of legacy combo.

I don't even think the creature type thing is THAT important. U drop it, name what u want to cast, and cast it... One activation is enough to warrent its inclusion in some decks. I mean: even if you get just one activation, it still produceds colorless!

Most combo play removal or bounce against hatebear, it's not that good. It's better against control.

[Gheizen64]

Meh. It'd have to be 3 and even then I'm not sure it'd see play. Night's Whisper doesn't see play anymore...

Instant instead of sorcery is kind of a big deal.

[bruizar]

Mana abilities can't be targeted.

Crap, my bad! Take that back then.

[(nameless one)]

Resolves. Plow your duder.

I gain my 6 life I lost from Ancient Tomb :P

But seriously though, with that land, Chalice (Stompy) MUD can be run with Welder without the fear of Chalice countering Welder and getting them StPed.

[Gheizen64]

I gain my 6 life I lost from Ancient Tomb :P

But seriously though, with that land, Chalice (Stompy) MUD can be run with Welder without the fear of Chalice countering Welder and getting them StPed.

Nice, didn't think of that. With this you can somewhat solve the dilemma of CotV vs Welder.

[Tao]

I think the new Land is extremely shitty design. Just powercreeping the crap out of everything doesn't make anything awesome. If one player has a counterspell he should be able to use it. Uncounterability is shitty design, just like Hexproof is.

On another note, Entreat the Angels is bonkers. I don't know if you ever casted Broodmate Dragon, but this is a 4 Mana Broodmate Dragon. Or a 6 Mana DOUBLE Broodmate Dragon.

[Humphrey]

Im not sure about the awsomeness of this land. Sure it has its values, but it feels pretty overhyped. Not much counters are played anyways and they still can hit your supportspells.
It might have some interesting interactions with Chalice or NetherVoid though.
But with this in the format, can we have Mental Misstep back please?

About Reforge, it seems pretty broken in DragonStompy, might be the next big thing. The format is pretty soft to Chalice, Trinisphere and Mooneffects and the biggest problem was DS consistency. It puts his hand on the table and then hardcast Reforge pretty easily

[rufus]

About Reforge, it seems pretty broken in DragonStompy, might be the next big thing. The format is pretty soft to Chalice, Trinisphere and Mooneffects and the biggest problem was DS consistency. It puts his hand on the table and then hardcast Reforge pretty easily

AFAICT the mana cost fits Sneak attack decks better... between that and Griselbargain...

[Suneloon]

I think the new Land is extremely shitty design. Just powercreeping the crap out of everything doesn't make anything awesome. If one player has a counterspell he should be able to use it. Uncounterability is shitty design, just like Hexproof is.


I totally agree with this. Removing interaction does not make MTG a better game.

[Offler]

Tribal decks have strong improvement now with this land. And that its is not even legendary...

And it does not seem like a fake. At least not from picture I have seen.

Hmm. looking for blue creature destruction.

[SpikeyMikey]

I totally agree with this. Removing interaction does not make MTG a better game.

Thirded. I don't want Legacy to turn into Standard. There's a reason people jump the Standard ship for Legacy and it's not our collective shining personality. The format sucks, and it sucks because there's no decent countermagic available. If you were at a bar and Standard, Modern and Legacy were all sitting there, Legacy would be the hot chick, Modern would be the one you'll take home at 2am if nothing else is available and Standard would be the huge hose-beast that you wouldn't fuck even if she offered you a free bottle of Johnny Walker and all the bacon you could eat. Oh wait, I shouldn't have said that. It was sexist. Jackie Lee is going to turn up and scold me now.

Gheizen: When you're going off, you're doing so at sorcey speed because Tendrils is a sorcery. Much like Reforge, you could use it as a hedge against fizzles or running into a wall of countermagic or discard stripping your hand down, but those scenarios are rare and not worth diluting your deck for.

[I am the brainwasher]

Removing interaction does not make MTG a better game.
and also

Removing interaction does not make MTG a better game.
besides

Removing interaction does not make MTG a better game.

I am pretty pissed right now. Was it really necessary to give Maverick another 1-off land to make KotR and his friends even more absurd? As if the MU against Tempo and Control(-ish) decks, sadly also Combo since Thalia, was not good/fair enough.
This land is the shit-cherry on top of this already huge crap-cake named AVR.

[bruizar]

and also

besides


I am pretty pissed right now. Was it really necessary to give Maverick another 1-off land to make KotR and his friends even more absurd? As if the MU against Tempo and Control(-ish) decks, sadly also Combo since Thalia, was not good/fair enough.
This land is the shit-cherry on top of this already huge crap-cake named AVR.

It is a god-sent for mud. I'm pretty stoked about this card because it clearly makes my biggest pet deck >much< more viable. As far as Maverick goes, yes it's a brutal deck, but it too has holes.

[Greenpoe]

At least Mindbreak Trap interacts with un-counterable spells for 2UU.

[joemauer]

Guys relax about the new land. Blue decks don't need to counter spells when they can just chain a bunch of Temporal Masteries and win on their fifth extra turn.

[Humphrey]

If you were at a bar and Standard, Modern and Legacy were all sitting there, Legacy would be the hot chick, Modern would be the one you'll take home at 2am if nothing else is available and Standard would be the huge hose-beast that you wouldn't fuck even if she offered you a free bottle of Johnny Walker and all the bacon you could eat.

sig quote!!

[I am the brainwasher]

Guys relax about the new land. Blue decks don't need to counter spells when they can just chain a bunch of Temporal Masteries and win on their fifth extra turn.

I am pretty undecided if I should find this insaneley dumb or hilarious.
I'll stick to both, I guess?

[boneclub24]

I am pretty undecided if I should find this insaneley dumb or hilarious.
I'll stick to both, I guess?

Depends on if it pans out I guess.

[Nonex]

Removing interaction does not make MTG a better game.

Pretty much every instance of interaction is done to prevent the opponent from interacting with us in the first place.

Anyway, we could take a closer look at Progenitus, Emrakul, Thrun, Counterbalance, Enchantress, Belcher, and the Storm combo archetype. Perhaps Reanimator and Dredge, too.

[Kich867]

Meh. It'd have to be 3 and even then I'm not sure it'd see play. Night's Whisper doesn't see play anymore...

Night's Whisper isn't red and isn't instant. Black already has quite a few good draw options, this however opens up a lot of power to decks like UR Delver and burn.

[TorpidNinja]

Night's Whisper isn't red and isn't instant. Black already has quite a few good draw options, this however opens up a lot of power to decks like UR Delver and burn.

Does Delver usually keep so few cards in hand that this wouldn't be worse than, say, Tolarian Winds? Or are you saying the option would be for even more aggressive play?

[Darkenslight]

The UG one seems to have been spoiled:

:tap: Add :1: to your mana Pool.
:u::g:, :tap: nonland spells you own have flash until end of turn.

Maybe nice in Spring Tide, I guess.

[Tao]

I think Entreat the Angels doesn't get the feedback it deserves. The card seems completely broken to me.

[caiomarcos]

Pretty much every instance of interaction is done to prevent the opponent from interacting with us in the first place.

Anyway, we could take a closer look at Progenitus, Emrakul, Thrun, Counterbalance, Enchantress, Belcher, and the Storm combo archetype. Perhaps Reanimator and Dredge, too.

decks that are built to achieve uninteractiviness is one thing, single cards that are completely unintercative is another thing.

[Gheizen64]

Thirded. I don't want Legacy to turn into Standard. There's a reason people jump the Standard ship for Legacy and it's not our collective shining personality. The format sucks, and it sucks because there's no decent countermagic available. If you were at a bar and Standard, Modern and Legacy were all sitting there, Legacy would be the hot chick, Modern would be the one you'll take home at 2am if nothing else is available and Standard would be the huge hose-beast that you wouldn't fuck even if she offered you a free bottle of Johnny Walker and all the bacon you could eat. Oh wait, I shouldn't have said that. It was sexist. Jackie Lee is going to turn up and scold me now.

Gheizen: When you're going off, you're doing so at sorcey speed because Tendrils is a sorcery. Much like Reforge, you could use it as a hedge against fizzles or running into a wall of countermagic or discard stripping your hand down, but those scenarios are rare and not worth diluting your deck for.

I'm strictly talking of non-combo applications here, because in combo i'm pretty sure you wouldn't play tolarian wind either.

[DragoFireheart]

Something may or may not get banned, but I suspect that after the set comes out, there will be FAR more butthurt over some of these cards. I think it's reasonable to see a meta-shift in Legacy after this set comes out.

Any single card most likely would not shift the meta, but miracle time walks and wheels of fortunes? A demon that acts like Necropotence for Reanimator/Sneak Attack decks? Lands that make Tribal better? A new red creautre/burn card that could make aggro decks faster? I think the combination of ALL of the cards from the set are going to cause Legacy to change.

[Tombstalker]

Cavern of souls is fucking ridiculous. Out of all the cards spoiled so far this one has me the most concerned. So now hierarchs, moms, thalias and knights are all uncounterable? Unbelievable. What a fuck.

[nedleeds]

Mana abilities can't be targeted.

Then ... (drumroll) Stifle the comes into battlefield ability. They never choose a type and they have themselves a Blasted Landscape.

[Oiolosse]

I think Entreat the Angels doesn't get the feedback it deserves. The card seems completely broken to me.

I agree. I predict that it'll be wicked in UW Counterbalance. CMC 3 fits nicely into their counterbalance curve. End of turn spin top, draw make 2,3,4... flying 4/4s. Sucker. It will be great.

[Stall_19]

Any single card most likely would not shift the meta, but miracle time walks and wheels of fortunes? A demon that acts like Necropotence for Reanimator/Sneak Attack decks? Lands that make Tribal better? A new red creautre/burn card that could make aggro decks faster? I think the combination of ALL of the cards from the set are going to cause Legacy to change.

You leave Griselbrand out of this! Griselbrand is awesome! :D

Seriously, I am loving this set so far.

[bruizar]

The UG one seems to have been spoiled:

:tap: Add :1: to your mana Pool.
:u::g:, :tap: nonland spells you own have flash until end of turn.

Maybe nice in Spring Tide, I guess.

Man, this set is just awkward. This is probably too expensive to use but why the hell do we get such broken effects on lands?

Also, Entreat the Angels is hot yeah. Awesome variation of Decree of Justice. I want to be captain obvious and point out Personal Tutor again, but I'll resist the temptation. Brainstorm and Top are much more stable. You can cast Entreat the Angels during your opponents attack-step and block all his dudes by Sensei's Divining Top-ing this thing. I likes.

[DragoFireheart]

I agree. I predict that it'll be wicked in UW Counterbalance. CMC 3 fits nicely into their counterbalance curve. End of turn spin top, draw make 2,3,4... flying 4/4s. Sucker. It will be great.

Counterbalance will be ass against Maverick decks that can cast uncounterable Knights/Thalias/MoMs.

[TorpidNinja]

Then ... (drumroll) Stifle the comes into battlefield ability. They never choose a type and they have themselves a Blasted Landscape.

"As Cavern of Souls enters the battlefield, choose a creature type."

Don't think you can Stifle that either.

[Wereodile]

I think Entreat the Angels doesn't get the feedback it deserves. The card seems completely broken to me.

The Miracle cost on it makes it very attractive and the non-miracle casting cost comes in under the cost of Decree of Justice. I am assuming whatever decks used to play Decree can handle the triple white so this does look quite good. Angel Stax anyone?

[DrJones]

Then ... (drumroll) Stifle the comes into battlefield ability. They never choose a type and they have themselves a Blasted Landscape.Doesn't work. It's a replacement effect, not a triggered ability. The card is stifle-proof on purpose.

[nedleeds]

It's real.
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/642/cavernadeanimas.jpg

Meet an old friend

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/lg/27.jpg

[DragoFireheart]

Meet an old friend

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/lg/27.jpg

Oh that is just fucking mean. R/B Goblins with that combination?

[nedleeds]

"As Cavern of Souls enters the battlefield, choose a creature type."

Don't think you can Stifle that either.

My bad. Was reading off GatheringMagic. Should have known better. Now I'm a prisoner to this pain.

"When Cavern of Souls enters the battlefield, choose a creature type."

[DLifshitz]

Then ... (drumroll) Stifle the comes into battlefield ability. They never choose a type and they have themselves a Blasted Landscape.

That doesn't work. Please refer to Iona and the following discussion (last post by Judge).

http://magiccards.info/zen/en/13.html

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=244160

Same goes for Cavern.

[nedleeds]

Oh that is just fucking mean. R/B Goblins with that combination?

I think maybe white black with humans and some resource denial. Wastelands, Thalia ... some nice black and white humans

- Mirran Crusader
- Bob
- Thalia
- Mom

... or run a bunch of angry Demons ... Abyssal Persecutor, Grinning Demon, Tombstalker

Edit: Get your Nether Voids now ... while they are only $96.00 ... 2 left on TCG player :)

[Lord Seth]

Cavern of Souls does seem a bit strong. Getting the option of colorless mana and mana of any color for tribal creatures seems decent enough, but adding the "can't be countered" seems to put it slightly over the edge.

Of course, maybe I just think that because it poses a real problem for my Patron Wizard deck. But I guess that's what my Wastelands are for. Heck, maybe they'll be worth sideboarding for facing against control decks.

As for whether it's Stifleable...I don't think we've seen an official English version (just the Spanish), but like in English, there's a difference between "when" and "as" in regards to whether it's a triggered ability. The phrase for "when" in Spanish (for triggered abilities) is "cuando." The phrase for "as" in Spanish is "en cuanto." This card uses "en cuanto" so unless there's a translation error, it translates to "as" and thus is unaffected by Stifle.

[Tombstalker]

So does cavern read 'when' or 'as'? Hoping for when..

[DragoFireheart]

So does cavern read 'when' or 'as'? Hoping for when..

It's going to be as.

[DragoFireheart]

I think maybe white black with humans and some resource denial. Wastelands, Thalia ... some nice black and white humans

- Mirran Crusader
- Bob
- Thalia
- Mom

... or run a bunch of angry Demons ... Abyssal Persecutor, Grinning Demon, Tombstalker

Edit: Get your Nether Voids now ... while they are only $96.00 ... 2 left on TCG player :)

You could easily go mono-black. Demons, maybe some mana accel so you can drop it early.

[Greenpoe]

Control decks might want to a few Scroll Rack to supplement their Tops in Temporal Mastery/miracle control decks. Scroll Rack goes great with shuffle effects, after all. Scroll Rack + Counterbalance = counter anything if you have the CMC in hand.

[SpikeyMikey]

decks that are built to achieve uninteractiviness is one thing, single cards that are completely unintercative is another thing.

Especially after all the bitching they got about Thrun in Standard. I agree with this statement. Something like Orim's Chant is one thing. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is another. You take interactivity away from a format, you lose midrange and true control. Lose true control and the only way you beat combo or ramp strategies is with aggressive hatebear decks like Maverick. Now I don't have anything against Maverick, but I don't want my format to boil down to linear strategies like burn or combo and hatebear.dec.

I like playing with fun, flexible decks. That's something that's not available in standard; midrange loses it's ass to Wolf Run. Before that it was Valakut. I don't feel like that sort of balance creates a healthy environment. Flexibility is what allows formats to shift, when you have a deck with unstoppable late game inevitability, you put an unecessary constraint on deck design that keeps the metagame from self-adjusting. Neuter counterspell strategies too much in Legacy and it will go the same way. Heavy control strategies can be easily countered and frankly, in the last 5 years have become increasingly obsolete.

The balance between aggressive and defensive strategies has shifted significantly in the last few years and it's not a good thing. Blue control has become increasingly tempo-based. While tempo decks have been viable since Labarre at PT Rome with the original Fish deck and actively good in almost any metagame since Odyssey and the printing of Nimble Mongoose and Mystic Enforcer, they've reached critical mass as of late and control, true control, simply isn't viable in the face of the aggressive threats that Wizards has been printing in every set.

This sounds great to the people like Dr. Jones who think that cutting the balls off counterspells will keep control from being the most powerful strategy, but even a cursory glance at T2 proves that this is not the case. While the format has been without decent counterspells since Invasions rotated out, control has always been the strongest strategy and blue has always been a dominating color. The number of counterspells has gone down but it has not made any of the shitty strategies casual players want more viable. All it does is increase the average curve of the format. This is because the natural predator of any given deck is the +1 deck, that is, the same deck (or, more broadly, strategy) only a little bit bigger and slower. Control serves as the cap, get too big and too slow and the control decks beat you. So you've got pressure in two different directions, modified slightly by the available card pool. Generally speaking, you need to be fast enough to beat control while remaining big enough to beat other aggressive strategies.

Counterspells are necessary for the health of the game and already, the need for situational counters is too heavy. What we need is a 1-mana Prohibit and/or a 2 mana counterspell that can counter spells that can't be countered ("exile target spell from the stack").

Sorry, I know the above has little to do with the spoiler, but I felt like it needed to be said.

[nedleeds]

You could easily go mono-black. Demons, maybe some mana accel so you can drop it early.

5 color evoke elementals .... with nether voids ... :confused:

[Richard Cheese]

Cavern is just going to push Treefolk over the top. Tier 1, here we come.

[I am the brainwasher]

Sorry, I know the above has little to do with the spoiler, but I felt like it needed to be said.

No need to excuse yourself, I definetly understand what you are trying to point out. Sadly, most of what you're saying is completely true and Standard is uninteresting as fukc since years.

"As far as what I miss - I feel like magic used to be a game of fighting for small advantages and building them up over time. Then they decided to make planeswalkers and huge creatures good in constructed and now someone can play a spell turn 3 or 4 that just wins the game if you cant deal with it, or 6 mana creatures that just totally swing things. Seems like it takes lots of the thought and nuance out of the game when everyone can just land haymakers left and right."

-Jon Finkel

[DragoFireheart]

Magic has never been solely about "building small advantages". It's always been a game of either doing something broken or stopping it since the days of Channel + Fireball.

[titus]

So... Cavern of Souls is pretty amazing and will clearly shake the eternal formats up. I mentioned this over on TMD, but I'll mention it here again as I figure it's probably more relevant:

Do you think this card paves the way for reprint of Force of Will?

Because surely, only a standard environment with a card like Cavern of Souls in would be able to stand up to FOW. I think it could be safe - so maybe we'll see it pop up in RTR or hell, why not M13?

[yadda]

No need to excuse yourself, I definetly understand what you are trying to point out. Sadly, most of what you're saying is completely true and Standard is uninteresting as fukc since years.

"As far as what I miss - I feel like magic used to be a game of fighting for small advantages and building them up over time. Then they decided to make planeswalkers and huge creatures good in constructed and now someone can play a spell turn 3 or 4 that just wins the game if you cant deal with it, or 6 mana creatures that just totally swing things. Seems like it takes lots of the thought and nuance out of the game when everyone can just land haymakers left and right."

-Jon Finkel

personally i think legacy is the only format available that still has those kinds of scrappy matches that are played at the margins.

also while i understand this is not a particularly popular position to hold i like when legacy has decks like UW stoneblade and URx delver. i find playing with and against those decks to be fun. in fact the only deck i dont like playing against right now is maverick, its just annoying most of the time.

[Kuma]

"As far as what I miss - I feel like magic used to be a game of fighting for small advantages and building them up over time. Then they decided to make planeswalkers and huge creatures good in constructed and now someone can play a spell turn 3 or 4 that just wins the game if you cant deal with it, or 6 mana creatures that just totally swing things. Seems like it takes lots of the thought and nuance out of the game when everyone can just land haymakers left and right."

-Jon Finkel

Pretty ironic coming from a guy who Tinkered for a Phyrexian Colossus to become world champion and who recently lost a huge tournament because of the incremental advantage lost from a seemingly minor blocking decision.

[CorpT]

Pretty ironic coming from a guy who Tinkered for a Phyrexian Colossus to become world champion and who recently lost a huge tournament because of the incremental advantage lost from a seemingly minor blocking decision.

That's what I was thinking. I think it's more mis-remembering the past than anything. The fact that creatures are powerful now vs spells before is the only real difference. What kind of incremental advantage was there in Windfalling on turn with Academy, etc...

[GGoober]

Fucking land is fucking stupid. Why would they even print something like this?? They really killed blue this time round. I guess they're fine with combo raping asses for awhile before they ban everything until everything is an aggro deck.

[Aggro_zombies]

Fucking land is fucking stupid. Why would they even print something like this?? They really killed blue this time round. I guess they're fine with combo raping asses for awhile before they ban everything until everything is an aggro deck.
I hope this is hyperbole. My e-sarcasm detector's been in the shop since near the beginning of this thread, you see.

Anyway, I think this land will be not unlike Aether Vial in terms of what it does, assuming it sees play. For starters, it's not fetchable, and that's pretty big considering fetches and duals are Legacy's bread and butter and that many decks already run unfetchable Wastelands. Merfolk was an experiment in how shitty you could make a mono-colored deck's manabase; I'm assuming this land will end up in a similar spot in semi-tribal or multicolor-tribal decks, wherein it can only be used to cast some spells well and ends up mucking up your mana for other creature types or non-creatures. It also doesn't make multiple mana, which means it doesn't stack up favorably against Aether Vial when you have multiple creatures you want to play.

So yeah, I'm a lot less sanguine about this land than some people. A land that either taps for colorless or taps to Boseiju only some of your guys just does not seem good enough to me. And if I'm wrong...well, maybe it's WotC's penance for Snapcaster and Delver.

[nedleeds]

Fucking land is fucking stupid. Why would they even print something like this?? They really killed blue this time round. I guess they're fine with combo raping asses for awhile before they ban everything until everything is an aggro deck.

i'm biting on this troll .... right because blue having 8 stp maindeck, along with force and 4 spell snare wasnt ridiculous. Hearing "fans of the island" complain after 6 months of snapcaster and delver, and having to end every legacy match with like 7 men in my exile zone and another 5 in my yard that got spell snared or forced is PRICELESS.

I cant wait to cast a Tidehollow Sculler off this thing with no fear of spell snare.

[DragoFireheart]

So yeah, I'm a lot less sanguine about this land than some people. A land that either taps for colorless or taps to Boseiju only some of your guys just does not seem good enough to me. And if I'm wrong...well, maybe it's WotC's penance for Snapcaster and Delver.

I think the cards intention was to make aggro decks (tribal specifically) better against control. Making aggro decks better than control decks is ok: the land does jack shit against decks that drop a giant tentacle monster on turn 1-3. Considering that half of the DTB has Force of Will and only one aggro deck is a DTB, I think that's a fair card. Hell, it might bring back some other tribal decks like Goblins! Format diversity is always good.

[Infinitium]

No real reason not to run this AND Aether Vial though, especially as the current tribal decks don't play colored non-creature spells (except for Glimpse, which needs creatures to be cast anyhow and Standstill, which doesn't see play). Somewhat overkill in that Tribal decks are already good versus decks playing counterspells, but should still be good enough despite the added vulnerability to wasteland.

Then again, it isn't Tribal decks that'll end up playing this, it's midrange creature decks and Stompy. Tapping for colorless already puts it on par as far as utility lands are concerned, and not losing your 3+ mana creature (and entire turn) to Daze or Force is significant.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think the cards intention was to make aggro decks (tribal specifically) better against control. Making aggro decks better than control decks is ok: the land does jack shit against decks that drop a giant tentacle monster on turn 1-3. Considering that half of the DTB has Force of Will and only one aggro deck is a DTB, I think that's a fair card. Hell, it might bring back some other tribal decks like Goblins! Format diversity is always good.
Tribal decks' problems run deeper than being soft to counters, though. Synergy counts less in modern Legacy than raw power, and tribal decks typically don't have that. I mean, Elves is the closest, and that's largely because it plays like a very slow-burning storm deck. A Goblin or Merfolk deck's creatures may synergize to get big and do stuff, but Knight is big and does stuff all on its own.

And, of course, these decks are still soft to removal.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That's what I was thinking. I think it's more mis-remembering the past than anything. The fact that creatures are powerful now vs spells before is the only real difference. What kind of incremental advantage was there in Windfalling on turn with Academy, etc...

This is specious. No one argues that Urza's block was good design; I think Finkel is simply referring here to earlier Magic, including the first half of the aughts and Masques through Time Spiral.

[CorpT]

This is specious. No one argues that Urza's block was good design; I think Finkel is simply referring here to earlier Magic, including the first half of the aughts and Masques through Time Spiral.

I guess it depends on his definition of "used to". AFAIK, he wasn't playing much through a lot of what most people consider good sets (Ravnica, Time Spiral, etc...)

[frogczar]

i'm biting on this troll .... right because blue having 8 stp maindeck, along with force and 4 spell snare wasnt ridiculous. Hearing "fans of the island" complain after 6 months of snapcaster and delver, and having to end every legacy match with like 7 men in my exile zone and another 5 in my yard that got spell snared or forced is PRICELESS.

I cant wait to cast a Tidehollow Sculler off this thing with no fear of spell snare.

This.

[joven]

At least Mindbreak Trap interacts with un-counterable spells for 2UU.

Yeah, how about a new generation of counterspells which do it like Mindbreak Trap and exile the spells right off the stack?
Or how about a land that makes uncounterable spells counterable again? :D

[DrJones]

You can start sideboarding Pithing Needle against this land. Oh, wait! It doesn't work either! Silly me. :cool:

I guess it's time to take the dust off good ol' Encroach.

[caiomarcos]

You can start sideboarding Pithing Needle against this land. Oh, wait! It doesn't work either! Silly me. :cool:

I guess it's time to take the dust off good ol' Encroach.

Or maybe a little obscure uncommon land from Tempest, Wasteland I think it's called.

[nedleeds]

You can start sideboarding Pithing Needle against this land. Oh, wait! It doesn't work either! Silly me. :cool:

I guess it's time to take the dust off good ol' Encroach.

I hear they might unban wasteland in legacy as well. I heard.

[DrJones]

By the time you can activate Wasteland, the opponent will have already activated the land once.

Unless you plan to play Kismet/Root Maze.

[caiomarcos]

-
By the time you can activate Wasteland, the opponent will have already activated the land once.


So? Is that really broken? Having a creature in play? Like blue mages never faced an oposing creature before. If your deck can't deal with a successfully played creature, it deserves to lose.

How bad is weakening the mana base to play a soon-to-be-destroyed land, only to stick whatever creature you have in hand?

If this land is OMG BROKEN SO AWESOME, Boseiju, although worse, would see at least some limited play.

[Awaclus]

By the time you can activate Wasteland, the opponent will have already activated the land once.

Unless you plan to play Kismet/Root Maze.
They get to resolve a whole one creature. They get to decide, which one it is (which they usually get to decide anyway, if they're skilled players), but even without this land, a tribal deck resolves at least one creature per game unless they get really unlucky. The advantage gained from the land is there, but it's very little.

Unless Faeries somehow manages to take a huge advantage out of this land, it's not going to warp the format. If Fae does, it might become a deck again though.

[Infinitium]

If this land is OMG BROKEN SO AWESOME, Boseiju, although worse, would see at least some limited play.

Of course, "although worse" in this context means that it is legendary, enters the battlefield tapped, produces colorless mana, shocks you ever time you use it and is generally used for a less powerful standalone effect (in aggressive decks).

[Vacrix]

No need to excuse yourself, I definetly understand what you are trying to point out. Sadly, most of what you're saying is completely true and Standard is uninteresting as fukc since years.

"As far as what I miss - I feel like magic used to be a game of fighting for small advantages and building them up over time. Then they decided to make planeswalkers and huge creatures good in constructed and now someone can play a spell turn 3 or 4 that just wins the game if you cant deal with it, or 6 mana creatures that just totally swing things. Seems like it takes lots of the thought and nuance out of the game when everyone can just land haymakers left and right."

-Jon Finkel
Eh... I understand what he's saying but I completely disagree. Thats like kinda like saying, "I used to enjoy a good battle when all we were using was crossbows. Then they invented guns and I threw up my hands in disgust."

I really like that land. I wonder if storm combo will play. End of turn LED lines of play sounds fairly ridiculous.

[Ignithas_]

So... Cavern of Souls is pretty amazing and will clearly shake the eternal formats up. I mentioned this over on TMD, but I'll mention it here again as I figure it's probably more relevant:

Do you think this card paves the way for reprint of Force of Will?

Because surely, only a standard environment with a card like Cavern of Souls in would be able to stand up to FOW. I think it could be safe - so maybe we'll see it pop up in RTR or hell, why not M13?
FoW would hurt Modern, so I don't think it would be reprinted in the near future. Plus FoW wouldn't do anything against Cavern of Souls and free cards aren't that great in Standard than in eternal formats.

[TsumiBand]

-

So? Is that really broken? Having a creature in play? Like blue mages never faced an oposing creature before. If your deck can't deal with a successfully played creature, it deserves to lose.

How bad is weakening the mana base to play a soon-to-be-destroyed land, only to stick whatever creature you have in hand?

If this land is OMG BROKEN SO AWESOME, Boseiju, although worse, would see at least some limited play.

Yeah it's like everyone forgot how to cast Perish or some junk. Sorry that Mutilate starts looking better than counterspells, it's not like control wasn't already packing StP or Dismember. For all the hype spells like fucking Firespout get, you'd think someone would have gone, "Oh wait what about that card from 7th Edition, Wrath of God"

Besides, combo decks.

Also quit forgetting that this card has a tribal requirement, so it isn't like every rando-aggro-control deck gets to just toss these in and hope for the best. Goblins will probably try to come back for a minute, maybe Counterslivers if they can deal with not using the new land to pay for Daze or whatever.

If this set ruins Magic it'll be because no one will shut up about it, haha

[nedleeds]

By the time you can activate Wasteland, the opponent will have already activated the land once.

Unless you plan to play Kismet/Root Maze.

Hmmm well I guess they'll have to unban Swords to Plowshares or maybe allow blocking again. That'll shake up the format ... maybe Brainstorm, Snapcaster and Force can come off as well that way everyone and his mother can play

4 x force
4 x stp
4 x snapcaster
4 x brainstorm

we'll call them the 16 amigos.

[Tombstalker]

we'll call them the 16 amigos.
Nice

I think the main concern (at least mine) is that this just plugs right into maverick like everything else lately. 15+ spells that are uncounterable is nothing to sneeze at when they are knights and thalias, hell even moms. The other issue is that most of mavericks other creatures and spells could care less if it produces colorless. Really only pridemage and teeg. 4 cards.

[joemauer]

I think some sort of stompy deck will be able to utilize this land the best. The creatures are more beastly and a bigger deal when they resolve. Lodestone Golem for instance would love this land. Angel Stompy with one of the new Hexproof Angels.

As for tribal decks, I am not too sure this will make them come back to top tier.
Elves doesn't care too much about counterspells and enjoys using all basics.
Removal spells/creatures were always merfolks problem.
Could help goblins resolve a key ringleader or lackey. Out of the tribal decks I think it helps this one the most since Goblins don't need colored mana very often, outside of their creatures.
Slivers would be cute to use this land in, but that deck is very color intensive and likes spells like Daze and StP. This land would hinder being able to cast those.

Deadguy Ale might use this over Aether Vial. Don't see this deck cutting lands because of it's dependence on Hymn, StP, and Wasteland. Tough to say if that would help this deck much.

I think this card will be playable, but not broken. I mean unless you are casting Emmy with this land then impact won't be too great.

Finally, what does this land do against Maverick? Weaken your mana base. That is all.

[joemauer]

Nice

I think the main concern (at least mine) is that this just plugs right into maverick like everything else lately. 15+ spells that are uncounterable is nothing to sneeze at when they are knights and thalias, hell even moms. The other issue is that most of mavericks other creatures and spells could care less if it produces colorless. Really only pridemage and teeg. 4 cards.

One of Maverick's strengths is their mana base.

Maverick's weakness is mass removal.

This lands weakens their strength and does nothing for it's weakness.

[Infinitium]

It also answers both Counterbalance and Chalice (or at the very least makes ramping mana to actually answer them much less of a bother) in Elves, and it isn't like Wasteland lacks targets as is (Cradle, Arbor, Pendelhaven). Weakening Quirion Ranger might be an issue, but at the very least this warrants testing.

[TsumiBand]

Lots of Mexican spoilers rolling in.

"Apuesta peligrosa" – 1R Common
Instant
Discard your hand, then draw two cards.

I think I like this. It's no Tolarian Winds, but I guess that keeps it from being an auto-include in Dredge and makes it worth considering in RDW, at least, moreso than Faithless Looting.

[matunos]

I don't see this benefiting Maverick much. They usually GSZ their guys into play (excpt for Thalia) anyway. There's what, 3 guys who make Spell Snare targets if cast directly (Thalia, Pridemage, Teeg; plus Stoneforge if they're playing her; but none of those fourt share a creature type)?

[DragoFireheart]

I think this card will be playable, but not broken. I mean unless you are casting Emmy with this land then impact won't be too great.



Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

[TsumiBand]

Originally Posted by joemauer
I think this card will be playable, but not broken. I mean unless you are casting Emmy with this land then impact won't be too great.

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

I think he meant Ember Beast.

[DragoFireheart]

I think he meant Ember Beast.

That's some secret fucking tech.

[trivial_matters]

I dunno, Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void are hardly seeing any play lately.

I think time will tell whether the fact that it helps in the combo matchup in making your hatebears uncounterable is important. Which combo decks with counters are popular at the moment? Hive Mind, Sneak-Show, Spiral Tide, Reanimator? It doesn't do anything against Storm combo like TES.

EDIT: In Maverick, the problem with the uncounterable hatebear strategy and perhaps with the land in general is that you need to play 3-4 to be able to put them into play naturally, which forces you to cut stuff like Horizon Canopy (which, in contrast, is useful even played as a singleton) and other utility lands like Maze of Ith, Karakas etc. (I don't think anyone would cut Wasteland) which limits your ability to search for specific answers with Knight of the Reliquary. Playing a singleton Cavern on the other hand, so as to fetch it with KotR, doesn't sound so appealing because a) you probably won't want to tutor it up when you already have a Knight in play and b) this method is probably too slow to protect your hatebears against combo.

[Malchar]

The land is alright, but it doesn't hose blue that badly. I really wish it had this ability instead:

T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast creature spells of the chosen creature type. If this mana is spent on a spell, opponents can't take extra turns until the beginning of your next upkeep.

[DragoFireheart]

The land is alright, but it doesn't hose blue that badly. I really wish it had this ability instead:

T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast creature spells of the chosen creature type. If this mana is spent on a spell, opponents can't take extra turns until the beginning of your next upkeep.

This is MUCH worse than the original land.

[(nameless one)]

I dunno, Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void are hardly seeing any play lately.



I think after AVR, that might change. I mean Miracle Wheel (in Dragon Stompy and Welder MUD) and the new Tribal Land (Chalice at one with Welder back up!).

Start boarding in Shattering Spree!

[Snap_Keep]

That land is an abortion. Can't wait until they print all permanents you control have hexproof and all spells you own have split second.

WotC actually works really hard to make me hate them, honestly, first they killed reanimtor with cage / surgical and now they don't want counterspells to counter monsters. "We don't like when you guise use ur blue counterspells to stop monsters were gonna make this land that makes counterspells not work anymore lolol"

This shit shakes my confidence in owning all these cards because every block WotC trashes another archetype by printing some retard strength OP hoser card.

[jrw1985]

Cavern of Souls will be ridiculous in Goblins.

Yes, I think I will run 4 lands that blank 10 cards in the Stoneblade MU.

A Lackey off of Cavern means the opponent NEEDS spot removal, which means they need to actually spend mana, which stops them from gaining Tempo.

[Kuma]

Finally, what does this land do against Maverick? Weaken your mana base. That is all.

Yeah, it totally doesn't make most of your best creatures uncounterable. Even if it did, why would you want uncounterable Knights of the Reliquary and Mothers of Runes? It just makes it harder to cast Swords to Plowshares. :rolleyes:

[joemauer]

Cavern of Souls will be ridiculous in Goblins.

Yes, I think I will run 4 lands that blank 10 cards in the Stoneblade MU.

A Lackey off of Cavern means the opponent NEEDS spot removal, which means they need to actually spend mana, which stops them from gaining Tempo.

Or a bigger creature to block the lackey, like a Tarmogofy.


For the record Emmy did mean Ember Beast. Land will be broken!!

[DragoFireheart]

So, from what I have seen from topics:

- Free turns is bad tempo if you can't cast it at ANY TIME YOU WANT EVEN WHEN TAKING A SHOWER.

- Uncounterable creatures is bad and stupid.

- CMC 1 for 4 damage or for a 4/3 is bad.

- Emmy means a unplayable Legacy beast, not a giant Tentacle monster.

Thanks MTG the Source!

[ScatmanX]

Cavern of Souls will be ridiculous in Goblins.

Yes, I think I will run 4 lands that blank 10 cards in the Stoneblade MU.

A Lackey off of Cavern means the opponent NEEDS spot removal, which means they need to actually spend mana, which stops them from gaining Tempo.
Now we need a Goblin combo hoser!

[DragoFireheart]

Now we need a Goblin combo hoser!

How about a goblin version of Thaila?

[joemauer]

Yeah, it totally doesn't make most of your best creatures uncounterable. Even if it did, why would you want uncounterable Knights of the Reliquary and Mothers of Runes? It just makes it harder to cast Swords to Plowshares. :rolleyes:

I think you misunderstood that quote of mine. When playing against Maverick, one of the top decks to beat, how does having this land help you? It does not help you. It limits the spells you can cast and gives Maverick players more wasteland targets.

However, I don't see how playing this land will help Maverick. I was under the impression Maverick>blue decks.

[DragoFireheart]

I was under the impression Maverick>blue decks.

Maverick is > blue decks.

However, it's possible with this land Maverick is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blue decks. This allows you to devote your sideboard solely to your bad matches.

[Kuma]

I think you misunderstood that quote of mine. When playing against Maverick, one of the top decks to beat, how does having this land help you? It does not help you. It limits the spells you can cast and gives Maverick players more wasteland targets.

However, I don't see how playing this land will help Maverick. I was under the impression Maverick>blue decks.

Yeah, sorry, I read that wrong.

Just because Maverick > blue decks doesn't mean it can't benefit from being even better against blue decks, especially when the opportunity cost is miniscule.

[joemauer]

What's the point of being 5x better than blue decks or 50x better than blue decks?

I don't think I would want to be 50x better than blue decks just to make the mirror match worse.

[DragoFireheart]

What's the point of being 5x better than blue decks or 50x better than blue decks?


There comes a point where you become so anti-X deck that you don't even need to consider sideboard space for them. This in effect lets you save sideboard space for your bad matchups. This makes your deck better against the overall field.

[Kuma]

What's the point of being 5x better than blue decks or 50x better than blue decks?

Seriously?


I don't think I would want to be 50x better than blue decks just to make the mirror match worse.

Assuming we cut a basic land, how much worse do you think you're making the mirror match by adding one more Waste-able land? I'll bet it's not anywhere near 50x worse. It's probably like .0005% worse.

Also, in Maverick mirrors, it's almost always better to Waste their utility lands like Maze of Ith, Gaea's Cradle, and Tower of the Magistrate than to try to screw them by Wasting Savannahs.

[joemauer]

Seriously?



Assuming we cut a basic land, how much worse do you think you're making the mirror match by adding one more Waste-able land? I'll bet it's not anywhere near 50x worse. It's probably like .0005% worse.

Also, in Maverick mirrors, it's almost always better to Waste their utility lands like Maze of Ith, Gaea's Cradle, and Tower of the Magistrate than to try to screw them by Wasting Savannahs.

Oh, I was under the impression you guys were trying to fit 3-4 of these new caverns into Maverick. Not just one.

You guys are right, this singleton land will make Maverick>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>blue decks. I was wrong.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Seriously?



Assuming we cut a basic land, how much worse do you think you're making the mirror match by adding one more Waste-able land? I'll bet it's not anywhere near 50x worse. It's probably like .0005% worse.

Also, in Maverick mirrors, it's almost always better to Waste their utility lands like Maze of Ith, Gaea's Cradle, and Tower of the Magistrate than to try to screw them by Wasting Savannahs.

So you want to add this land as a one of for knight? But if you have a knight in play why do you care if some of your creatures are uncountable.

[Kuma]

So you want to add this land as a one of for knight? But if you have a knight in play why do you care if some of your creatures are uncountable.

I don't want to add it as a one-of "for Knight." I want to add it as a one-of because drawing two is bad in Maverick, and once in a while getting uncounterable Noble Hierarchs, Mothers of Runes, Thalias, and Knights of the Reliquary is nicer than the negligible opportunity cost is bad.

[Barook]

Cavern of Souls will mark the glorious return of Thunder Bluff.

Just wait for it.

[bruizar]

I thought Fauna Shaman into Loyal retainers / Elesh-Norn was supposed to ramp up the mirror match. I think you really need a good reason to run wasteland with all those options. Cavern of Souls is still a multicolor mana producing land in Maverick. Who cares if they waste you? As long as you run enough mana, you are running on par with your opponent. I'd much rather run the utility, and more stable mana base due to more colored sources, with Cavern of Souls, then doodling around with Wasteland. If you really want to 'wastelock' someone with KOTR, splash a Dust Bowl.

As an aside, Maverick wasn't good enough to crush the Esperblade deck that took the first place at Indianapolis, so I don't think Maverick is 5 times as good as blue yet.



Oh, I was under the impression you guys were trying to fit 3-4 of these new caverns into Maverick. Not just one.

You guys are right, this singleton land will make Maverick>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>blue decks. I was wrong.

3-4 is the right number. Cut Wasteland, it's outdated.

[jrw1985]

Anyone else worried that Cavern of Souls' flavor text on the mtgsalvation page is "Awesome land is awesome"?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Not seeing a huge deal with this land.
It seems really good, but not particularly overpowered.

Rug still runs bolts and Wastelands. Running this means more Wasteland targets in your deck and Bolt still kills most creatures. Submerge out the board is still pretty hot here.

UW or UWx can adjust. When Maverick is your worst matchup on average and a very popular deck it might finally make sense to bring those Wraths in your SB into the MD. Then you still have your Swords + Snapcaster package.

On a related note Engineered Plague or Night of Souls Betrayal seem pretty decent if you are going a control route.

Card is good and it might change the format, but I'm pretty sure if it does decks will be able to adjust.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

I don't want to add it as a one-of "for Knight." I want to add it as a one-of because drawing two is bad in Maverick, and once in a while getting uncounterable Noble Hierarchs, Mothers of Runes, Thalias, and Knights of the Reliquary is nicer than the negligible opportunity cost is bad.

That sounds awful.

[Tombstalker]

Cavern is very good maybe the most auto include spoiled so far. This thing is like boseiju on crack. It doesnt hurt mavericks plan at all and just strengthens its matchup against control and combo while actually making the manabase better for half of their creatures.
Also am I the only one who leaves in some number of FoW and snare against maverick?

[Cire]

Lanzamiento doble – 1R Rare
Enchantment – Aura
Enchant creature.
Enchanted creature has “R,T: copy target instant or sorcery you control. You may choose new targets for the copy”

Seems pretty good... Get it on a creature turn 2, turn 3, start doing silly things.... (double your hymn :smile:, then keep on doubling your discard and creature kill)

[nedleeds]

Nice

I think the main concern (at least mine) is that this just plugs right into maverick like everything else lately. 15+ spells that are uncounterable is nothing to sneeze at when they are knights and thalias, hell even moms. The other issue is that most of mavericks other creatures and spells could care less if it produces colorless. Really only pridemage and teeg. 4 cards.

I mean, we are saying casting creatures without having to duress a spell snare or have a force or daze yourself is a valid legacy strategy. This land can't even make mana for non-creature spells. It can be wastelanded. What lands are you taking out of your 19-22 lands to put this in? It doesn't protect the man you create with it. It's good but not even on the same plane as some of the cards that are currently not banned in Legacy, like fucking Brainstorm.

I mean the control decks might actually play this land ... and name Wizard. Then they are off to the races with

4 x Spellstutter Sprite
2 x Vendillion Clique
4 x Snapcaster Mage
4 x Dark Confidant

DERP!

[TsumiBand]

Anyone else worried that Cavern of Souls' flavor text on the mtgsalvation page is "Awesome land is awesome"?

They do that all the time, because people leech their page or some junk. At any rate the actual Spanish card is posted right next to it.

[nedleeds]

The land is alright, but it doesn't hose blue that badly. I really wish it had this ability instead:

T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast creature spells of the chosen creature type. If this mana is spent on a spell, opponents can't take extra turns until the beginning of your next upkeep.

You have Stranglehold for that.

[Koby]

I thought Fauna Shaman into Loyal retainers / Elesh-Norn was supposed to ramp up the mirror match. I think you really need a good reason to run wasteland with all those options. Cavern of Souls is still a multicolor mana producing land in Maverick. Who cares if they waste you? As long as you run enough mana, you are running on par with your opponent. I'd much rather run the utility, and more stable mana base due to more colored sources, with Cavern of Souls, then doodling around with Wasteland. If you really want to 'wastelock' someone with KOTR, splash a Dust Bowl.

As an aside, Maverick wasn't good enough to crush the Esperblade deck that took the first place at Indianapolis, so I don't think Maverick is 5 times as good as blue yet.

3-4 is the right number. Cut Wasteland, it's outdated.

You're 1000% correct - Maverick can't beat Tom Martell topdeck city Esperblade. Therefore, my casual outsider observation must be confirming my deep seated, untested opinion. Everyone is wrong but I.

I CAN HAZ HYPERBOLE!

Actual content - this land is junk. Great, you're casting uncouunterable Mother of Runes/Nobles/Knights/Ham&Cheese on Rye. If Stoneblade is going to adapt, it's going to be adapting by overloading on creature removal.

I can't actually see the land being used more than a 1-of, and only in the first 3 weeks of the new set's release, until people realize this land is a piece of garbage for Maverick.

That awkward moment you realize that Cavern of Souls can only cast one of three hatebears in your hand against Combo. (Gaddock Teeg - Advisor Kithkin; Thalia - Human Soldier; Ethersworn Canonist - Human Cleric; Qasali Pridemage - Cat Wizard)

[rufus]

Lanzamiento doble – 1R Rare
Enchantment – Aura
Enchant creature.
Enchanted creature has “R,T: copy target instant or sorcery you control. You may choose new targets for the copy”

Seems pretty good... Get it on a creature turn 2, turn 3, start doing silly things.... (double your hymn :smile:, then keep on doubling your discard and creature kill)

Fun, but it seems like a casual/limited card by virtue of being an aura.

[jrw1985]

I mean, we are saying casting creatures without having to duress a spell snare or have a force or daze yourself is a valid legacy strategy. This land can't even make mana for non-creature spells. It can be wastelanded. What lands are you taking out of your 19-22 lands to put this in? It doesn't protect the man you create with it. It's good but not even on the same plane as some of the cards that are currently not banned in Legacy, like fucking Brainstorm.

I mean the control decks might actually play this land ... and name Wizard. Then they are off to the races with

4 x Spellstutter Sprite
2 x Vendillion Clique
4 x Snapcaster Mage
4 x Dark Confidant

DERP!

Yes it can. It adds 1 colorless with no restriction.

On using Cavern in Maverick, making Humans uncounterable seems good, but you need to play fewer forests/fetches to do so. Cavern can't be sacked to Knight, bounced with Scryb Ranger, or used to activate Ooze. You can't cast GSZ for 0 T1 with it. You can't cast StP with it. These are all relatively minor by themselves, but considering Maverick already runs as many non-basics as it can Caverns will become cumbersome. So, it has definite downsides.

[Cire]

Fun, but it seems like a casual/limited card by virtue of being an aura.

Yeah, but it's a GREAT aura lol.

I can dream but.... turn 1, creature, turn 2, fork Aura, turn 3, double discard + creature kill, turn 4, double vidicate.... Back that up with counters.... sigh.... a man can dream...

[nedleeds]

Yeah, but it's a GREAT aura lol.

I can dream but.... turn 1, creature, turn 2, fork Aura, turn 3, double discard + creature kill, turn 4, double vidicate.... Back that up with counters.... sigh.... a man can dream...

Put it on a Slippery Bogle ...

[Norm]

Put it on a Slippery Bogle ...

Yeah, but then your deck has Bogles in it...

[wcm8]

This got spoiled:

Dangerous Bet 1R
Instant
Discard your hand then draw two cards.

[Cire]

No counter back up but rough list.......

BWR Human Fork Aura Control?

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Student Of Warfare

4 Fork Aura

4 Vindicate
4 Hymn
4 Duress
4 STP
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Diabolic Edict

16 Lands
4 Cavern of souls

[dontbiteitholmes]

I mean, we are saying casting creatures without having to duress a spell snare or have a force or daze yourself is a valid legacy strategy. This land can't even make mana for non-creature spells. It can be wastelanded. What lands are you taking out of your 19-22 lands to put this in? It doesn't protect the man you create with it. It's good but not even on the same plane as some of the cards that are currently not banned in Legacy, like fucking Brainstorm.

I mean the control decks might actually play this land ... and name Wizard. Then they are off to the races with

4 x Spellstutter Sprite
2 x Vendillion Clique
4 x Snapcaster Mage
4 x Dark Confidant

DERP!

Yeah, counterpoint though it doesn't cast Brainstorm, Swords, or whatever other one drop you are running and it cuts into land base leaving less spots for Wastelands, Factories, and utility lands. You still need to run enough real color lands to be able to cast bombs like Planeswalkers or board wipes ASAP. Also control doesn't usually want Confidant for obvious reasons. It's a strong card, but I don't think it's an auto-include in anything except maybe meathooks. It will probably end up in other decks, especially tribal, but counters are already the weakest link vs. those decks.

[Barook]

No counter back up but rough list.......

BWR Human Fork Aura Control?

4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Student Of Warfare

4 Fork Aura

4 Vindicate
4 Hymn
4 Duress
4 STP
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Diabolic Edict

16 Lands
4 Cavern of souls
Seems slow. Needs better and faster threats.

On a different note:

Naming Spirits with Caverns might be pretty good with Tallowisp + Phantoms, considering Drogskol Captain and Ghost of Saint Traft are playable with it.

Swining with indestructible, hexproof, uncounterable guys sounds like a plan.

[rufus]

No counter back up but rough list.......

BWR Human Fork Aura Control?
...


No Izzet Guildmage?

Maybe combo with To Arms/Roar of the Kha, Fork Aura and some mana dudes?

[Cire]

Idk about combo.... but Noxious revival and maybe other phyrxian spells seem good with it.... hmmm

-----

@ Barook, yeah it's slow, but it would have really obnoxious plays like

End of turn, Revival for 0, copy it for R, dont pay life for the copy, return vindicate and surgical extraction to your library. Your turn, Double Vindicate for 1WRB. Then follow it up with the surgery.

Btw can you cast the Revival for a Vindicate, Copy it, Return the Revival? A very slow but Hilarious vindicate wall will ensue.....

[Ziveeman]

Yeah, but then your deck has Bogles in it...

I fail to see the problem

[Teknique]

Btw can you cast the Revival for a Vindicate, Copy it, Return the Revival? A very slow but Hilarious vindicate wall will ensue.....

I don't believe that would work. The copy would go on the stack above the revival which hasn't resolved yet. So when the copy resolves first, the revival is still sitting on the stack rather than in the graveyard, and isn't targetable.

[nedleeds]

Yeah, but then your deck has Bogles in it...

He's part of the Beast tribe. You could actually cast him using 'Land of Awesomeness' ... after naming 'Beast'. Then cast Aura of Timmy on him.

Beast mode.

[matunos]

Maverick is > blue decks.

However, it's possible with this land Maverick is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blue decks. This allows you to devote your sideboard solely to your bad matches.

Damn straight. If playing this land convinces Maverick players to take Choke out of their sideboards, then this land is completely broken and every Maverick deck should have 4. I suggest you remove Grove of the Burnwillows and Maze of Ith.

[joven]

Yipiih! I finally get my zombie with Undying and a casting cost of less than or equal 2. :D

~Butcher Ghoul
1B
Creature - Zombie
Undying
1/1

... of course just for my casual zombie deck! :P

[joven]

That land is an abortion.

You meant abomination, right? :D

[joven]

Lanzamiento doble – 1R Rare
Enchantment – Aura
Enchant creature.
Enchanted creature has “R,T: copy target instant or sorcery you control. You may choose new targets for the copy”

Seems pretty good... Get it on a creature turn 2, turn 3, start doing silly things.... (double your hymn :smile:, then keep on doubling your discard and creature kill)

~Double Throw
1R
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature.
Enchanted creature has “R,T: copy target instant or sorcery you control. You may choose new targets for the copy”

If it was a 1/1 creature, it would be interesting.

When will WotC finally fix auras? Maybe with a mechanic similar to this pairing of Soulbond? Something like the Aura is paired to a creature and when the creature is gone it may be re-paired to another creature, maybe when a new creature is put onto battlefield.

[matunos]

I don't want to add it as a one-of "for Knight." I want to add it as a one-of because drawing two is bad in Maverick, and once in a while getting uncounterable Noble Hierarchs, Mothers of Runes, Thalias, and Knights of the Reliquary is nicer than the negligible opportunity cost is bad.

Just curious here... when's the last time you got Noble Hierarch or Mother of Runes countered? The occasional FoW on Mom, I'm guessing.

Again, the current top control deck, Esperblade, has removed much of its counter suite. Post-board, FoW is pretty much reserved for Choke.

Oh, Mother of Runes, how can I remove thee? Let me count the ways...
Swords to Plowshares, Umezawa's Jitte, Darkblast, Zealous Persecution, Engineered Explosives, Wrath of God, Dread of Night, Sulfur Elemental...

(Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Mom is a pushover, but it's not like control players don't have removal plans for her.)

[matunos]

~Double Throw
1R
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature.
Enchanted creature has “R,T: copy target instant or sorcery you control. You may choose new targets for the copy”

If it was a 1/1 creature, it would be interesting.

When will WotC finally fix auras? Maybe with a mechanic similar to this pairing of Soulbond? Something like the Aura is paired to a creature and when the creature is gone it may be re-paired to another creature, maybe when a new creature is put onto battlefield.

I believe that's called Equipment.

[JDK]

Maverick > Blue Decks?

Spiral Tide begs to differ.

[joven]

I believe that's called Equipment.

Not quite. Equipments are nasty artifacts. They are rarely of colors as Auras usually are. Also most Equipments have an equip cost, which is often way to high. Well, it is not the same as that what I meant.
The few playable equipments are ridiculously strong (Jitte, Swords), not to mention the crazy WoTC idea of Livinig Weapons that brought up abominations like Batterskull, Bonehoard and Lashwrithe.

[TsumiBand]

Not quite. Equipments are nasty artifacts. They are rarely of colors as Auras usually are. Also most Equipments have an equip cost, which is often way to high. Well, it is not the same as that what I meant.
The few playable equipments are ridiculously strong (Jitte, Swords), not to mention the crazy WoTC idea of Livinig Weapons that brought up abominations like Batterskull, Bonehoard and Lashwrithe.

Sounds like someone needs a little more Hexproof in his daily intake.

Have we all forgotten about "Blouses" so soon? The rogue deck that shitstormed that one place that one time, featuring such OP cards as Geist of Saint Traft, Troll Ascetic and Unstable Mutation? Hexproof is fixing your Aura problem for you. Not kidding.

[morgan_coke]

Green Fight Guy
G
Rare
1G,T: target creature you control fights another target creature.

Yes, that means GSZ can now tutor up repeatable removal. This is unbelievable sick in Maverick. Combined with Mom, your dude will never lose. Also, again, it's tutorable, repeatable removal in green.

The closest thing I can come up with is a better contested cliffs that doesn't limit itself to beasts. Fcking amazing. Either kill this guy on sight or watch your entire board die to KotR/Goyf.

[RJM]

Green Fight Guy
G
Rare
1G,T: target creature you control fights another target creature.

Yes, that means GSZ can now tutor up repeatable removal. This is unbelievable sick in Maverick. Combined with Mom, your dude will never lose. Also, again, it's tutorable, repeatable removal in green.

The closest thing I can come up with is a better contested cliffs that doesn't limit itself to beasts. Fcking amazing. Either kill this guy on sight or watch your entire board die to KotR/Goyf.

Oh snap, that's a pretty cool duder.

[Greenpoe]

The uncounterable land could make tribal Wizards quite strong. Wizards as a creature type give you a lot of the strongest creatures in the format: Vendillion Clique, Delver of Secrets, Grim Lavamancer, Snapcaster Mage, Qasali Pridemage and of course, Dark Confidant. Somehow these are all Wizards. :eyebrow: Other decent Wizards are Trinket Mage, Spellstutter Sprite, Patron Wizard, Sower of Temptation, Shadowmage Infiltrator, Meddling Mage, Aven Mindcensor and Mangara of Corondor. Aven Mimeomancer seems decent, too. Surely some combination of colors and cards could make Wizards playable. Actually, with Vendillion Clique, Delver, Lavamancer, Snapcaster and Confidant, Ubr Wizards tempo may replace RUG tempo.

[TsumiBand]

Green Fight Guy
G
Rare
1G,T: target creature you control fights another target creature.

Yes, that means GSZ can now tutor up repeatable removal. This is unbelievable sick in Maverick. Combined with Mom, your dude will never lose. Also, again, it's tutorable, repeatable removal in green.

The closest thing I can come up with is a better contested cliffs that doesn't limit itself to beasts. Fcking amazing. Either kill this guy on sight or watch your entire board die to KotR/Goyf.

Immediately comparable to Grim Lavamancer, only significantly more dependent on controlling a large dude (or as pointed out, large man + MoR). Honestly, I feel like it's win-more, and I say that because controlling a creature that's so much bigger than your opponent's guys that you can risk Fighting all their creatures and not worry about removal, either damage-based or spot, feels like you're already in a position to be winning.

Keep in mind that the aforementioned situation with Mother of Runes, KotR and Green Fight Guy is a creature-based, 3-card combo that only deals damage to creatures. I'm not saying it doesn't have the capacity to Do Good Things, but it seems like it's worth pointing out.

[joven]

Sounds like someone needs a little more Hexproof in his daily intake.

[...]
Hexproof is fixing your Aura problem for you. Not kidding.

Sorry, not good enough for me. :P :D
Just being able to use auras savely only on hexproof creatures is quite limiting.

[Aggro_zombies]

Immediately comparable to Grim Lavamancer, only significantly more dependent on controlling a large dude (or as pointed out, large man + MoR). Honestly, I feel like it's win-more, and I say that because controlling a creature that's so much bigger than your opponent's guys that you can risk Fighting all their creatures and not worry about removal, either damage-based or spot, feels like you're already in a position to be winning.

Keep in mind that the aforementioned situation with Mother of Runes, KotR and Green Fight Guy is a creature-based, 3-card combo that only deals damage to creatures. I'm not saying it doesn't have the capacity to Do Good Things, but it seems like it's worth pointing out.
It's also worth pointing out that creature-based matchups tend to be won by either going big or overloading on removal. Green Fight Guy vaguely rewards going big, but he's not really good removal compared to, say, Punishing Fire, which works regardless of your board state. I feel like StP and Fire are better at breaking open mirrors than this guy will be. He's kind of embarrassing as removal vs. an active Jitte (a time where you really want removal, for example), and paying two mana to have your Pridemage pick off little guys one at a time just does not seem good enough. I guess he's a legitimate 1-of if you don't want to splash red, but then again, something like Baneslayer or the green/white hexproof angel (Buttercup is the only name I'm dredging up right now) gives you a trump in the mirror that works regardless of what the rest of your crew looks like.

The fact that Green Fight Guy is a 1/1 and costs two to activate probably seals the deal. If he was just tap to activate, he'd be much more interesting.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/9029/img00416201204172255.jpg

3UU
Sorcery
Return all non-land permanents to their owner's hand.
Miracle 1U

Cool, but probably useless. Tog isn't good anymore, and this doesn't even have the best part of Upheaval. Still, wonder if someone could do something with this...

[dontbiteitholmes]

Immediately comparable to Grim Lavamancer, only significantly more dependent on controlling a large dude (or as pointed out, large man + MoR). Honestly, I feel like it's win-more, and I say that because controlling a creature that's so much bigger than your opponent's guys that you can risk Fighting all their creatures and not worry about removal, either damage-based or spot, feels like you're already in a position to be winning.

Keep in mind that the aforementioned situation with Mother of Runes, KotR and Green Fight Guy is a creature-based, 3-card combo that only deals damage to creatures. I'm not saying it doesn't have the capacity to Do Good Things, but it seems like it's worth pointing out.

This guy could be worth it. His ability to clear out a chump blocker to get your big guys in or to act as ghetto removal seems strong enough to at least include him as a one of to tutor up.

[RJM]

Another part of what appears to be an UC cycle of "loner" creatures:

Cursed Geist 2U
Creature - Spirit (U)

Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice this unless you pay 1 for each other creature you control.

3/4

So, I'll probably play this is something. Because Sea Drake and Serendib Efreet are cool.

Really wish that the new miracle Upheaval was an instant too. Then I'd consider it borderline for something.

[heroicraptor]

That dude costs 2U and the trigger is 1 for each other creature you control.

[RJM]

That dude costs 2U and the trigger is 1 for each other creature you control.

Ugh, yeah. Copy/paste formatting error. Fixed.

[Malakai]

Oh snap, that's a pretty cool duder.

This card does not seem to exist.

[Mr. Safety]

Anyone else digging Risky Bet?

1R
Instant

Discard your hand and then draw 2 cards.

[Kich867]

Anyone else digging Risky Bet?

1R
Instant

Discard your hand and then draw 2 cards.

Kinda wish it was draw 3, but still very good. May find a place in burn to keep things rolling. I like it though.

AVR feels like the "Let's give Red some cool shit" set haha.

[matunos]

Not quite. Equipments are nasty artifacts. They are rarely of colors as Auras usually are. Also most Equipments have an equip cost, which is often way to high. Well, it is not the same as that what I meant.
The few playable equipments are ridiculously strong (Jitte, Swords), not to mention the crazy WoTC idea of Livinig Weapons that brought up abominations like Batterskull, Bonehoard and Lashwrithe.

These are cosmetic differences. What you're asking for is basically an equipment subtype for Auras. There are some auras that you can move or return to hand once their attached permanent dies, but if that became a subtype, I would expect there is going to be some cost involved in most of them (remember there are some equipment that cost 0 to equip too, and some that can be re-equipped at instant speed via a separate ability), and limitations over when you can do it, otherwise we'd just have a broken version of equipment, which can't be destroyed by effects that target artifacts. There's no reason that an equipment can't have a colored casting cost, either.

In general, I think if you're looking to give an aura boon to a permanent, then you should have to take the risk of being 2-for-1'd. If you want a re-usable boon, then look for the ability in an equipment (or fortification, if they ever get around to printing a usable one), and take the risk of artifact hate, the additional equip cost, and the timing restrictions. I think it's good that the two card types maintain some distinction.

[ivanpei]

Don't see how this is that good in maverick. It seems like an auto 4 of in goblins. Goblins primary weakness is getting a late game heavy drop ala matron/ringleader/siege gang countered, thus wasting a whole turn. The card makes late game bombers much safer.

Also does it work with tribal cards like warren weirding? Can I use it to pay cycling for gempalm? I don't think so but it's worth asking. It seems insanely broken when you can power our an uncountable t1 lackey. :)

[Vacrix]

I like that card. 1U is nice for that effect. The problem with speculation though is that we still have no idea just how good deck manipulation will really be with the Miracle cards.

[matunos]

Green Fight Guy
G
Rare
1G,T: target creature you control fights another target creature.

Yes, that means GSZ can now tutor up repeatable removal. This is unbelievable sick in Maverick. Combined with Mom, your dude will never lose. Also, again, it's tutorable, repeatable removal in green.

The closest thing I can come up with is a better contested cliffs that doesn't limit itself to beasts. Fcking amazing. Either kill this guy on sight or watch your entire board die to KotR/Goyf.

Seems like a fun thing to do in the middle of combat, perhaps before blockers are declared.

[matunos]

I don't know if it's playable, but Devastating Tide (or whatever it's English name will be) is the first card whose effect actually feels something like a miracle.

If it was an instant, it might even be worth the regular casting cost, for some end-step festivities.

[Vacrix]

Its application in High Tide combo is actually an interesting idea. Its great as a potential delay spell to give you 2-3 extra turns. Also.. it has the advantage mid combo of bouncing your Candelabra's, though 3UU is a bit taxing.

[Greenpoe]

The 1U upheaval definitely seems nifty with the existence of Snapcaster, plus he's good for things like forcing them to re-flip their Delver, and it gives you a solid chance to counter the spells that you missed all over again.

[TheArchitect]

It would be legacy playable only if lightning bolt didn't make it useless :rolleyes:

But regardless probably one of the coolest designed cards I have seen in a while and the blackest card they have printed since Dark Confidant.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130212&d=1334722015

[Barook]

Pit-Dweller seems to be pretty cool.

Combines well with GY hate. And for once, StP being the primary removal of Legacy is an advantage instead of a disadvantage for that guy.

The drawback still seems pretty harsh, though.

[Vacrix]

I agree design is really tight. Also, can't you Stifle the trigger when it comes into play from the yard? This guy seems perfect for Torpor Orb, Phyrexian Dreadnought, and Hunted Horror.

[bruizar]

rather play goyf for 2 mana

[TkDodo]

Also does it work with tribal cards like warren weirding? Can I use it to pay cycling for gempalm? I don't think so but it's worth asking. It seems insanely broken when you can power our an uncountable t1 lackey. :)

No, it doesn't. It says "Spend this mana only to cast creature spells of the chosen creature type". So you have to cast a creature spell. Not cycle it, and not cast a non-creature spell. Otherwise, it would be absurd in Faeries...Uncounterable Bitterblossom? Yes, please!

[Vacrix]

Perhaps. But Torpor Orb is damn good right now. There are a lot of heavily played creatures with good or even game breaking CIP effects, SFM and Snapcaster being the most notable.

I wonder if this card makes Brand more playable. Stuff like Sleeper Agent, Gilded Drake, Hunted Horror, etc.

[TkDodo]

I wonder if this card makes Brand more playable. Stuff like Sleeper Agent, Gilded Drake, Hunted Horror, etc.

Brand doesn't work with Hunted Horror, as of the M2010 rule changes, the owner of a token is the person who controlled them when they entered the battlefield (which would be your opponent), not the person who owned the spell which produced them (which would be you).

EDIT: See rule 110.5a: A token is both owned and controlled by the player under whose control it entered the battlefield.

[matunos]

Perhaps. But Torpor Orb is damn good right now. There are a lot of heavily played creatures with good or even game breaking CIP effects, SFM and Snapcaster being the most notable.

I wonder if this card makes Brand more playable. Stuff like Sleeper Agent, Gilded Drake, Hunted Horror, etc.

How long before Stoneblade vs Maverick becomes Cursed Totem vs Torpor Orb?

[(nameless one)]

It would be legacy playable only if lightning bolt didn't make it useless :rolleyes:

But regardless probably one of the coolest designed cards I have seen in a while and the blackest card they have printed since Dark Confidant.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130212&d=1334722015


Since this thread is already talking about overhyped lands, let me reintroduce Homeward Path

[DragoFireheart]

Also does it work with tribal cards like warren weirding? Can I use it to pay cycling for gempalm? I don't think so but it's worth asking. It seems insanely broken when you can power our an uncountable t1 lackey. :)



Edit: Nevermind, creatures only.

Uncounterable lackeys... what is this, answer lackey or die format again?

[Einherjer]

T1: uncounterable Lackey - fine --> pass
My T1: City of Traitors, Petal - Show and Tell into Grislebrand --> gf?

Greetings

[ScatmanX]

T1: uncounterable Lackey - fine --> pass
My T1: City of Traitors, Petal - Show and Tell into Grislebrand --> gf?

Greetings
Uncounterable Stingscourge into SGC. If you payed 7 life to draw cards, good luck staying alive after saccing that shitty City of Traitors.
Edit: yeah, dreamland for both players.

[DragoFireheart]

T1: uncounterable Lackey - fine --> pass
My T1: City of Traitors, Petal - Show and Tell into Grislebrand --> gf?

Greetings

T2: Stingscourger, lackey hits you, drop SGC.

sup?

Edit: Damn, got beaten.

[ScatmanX]

T2: Stingscourger, lackey hits you, drop SGC.

sup?

Edit: Damn, got beaten.
We forgot that with SnT we could have cheated Sting/SGC/Matron for Sting/anything else.

[DragoFireheart]

We forgot that with SnT we could have cheated Sting/SGC/Matron for Sting/anything else.

Yeah that's true. We could have Sting in hand and drop something else, or drop matron and go get a sting, or drop a ringleader if desperate and hope to draw into a sting.

I think the point here is that there is a very real chance of Goblins coming back. Ironically, this probably kills Merfolk for good.

[I am the brainwasher]

I think the point here is that there is a very real chance of Goblins coming back.
I think so too. When people start to realize how awesome Bolt is in this deck and that the new land spoiled is an instant 4-off, then the chances might not be that bad. Esper-Blade and everything with Punishing Fire is still an uphill battle though.


Ironically, this probably kills Merfolk for good.
...which wasn't dead yet?

[rufus]

If Melira weren't so much better, Cathars' Crusade could be fun with persist.

Dual Cast could be interesting with self-untappers like Pili-pala,Puresight Merrow, or Horseshoe Crab.

Am I reading Ghostly Flicker right in that it can exile and return up to 6 cards?

[DragoFireheart]

...which wasn't dead yet?

I think if Merfolk had any chance of coming back, this card killed them. Frankly, I'm glad Merfolk and CounterTop died and I won't miss them.

[rufus]

If Melira weren't so much better, Cathars' Crusade could be fun with persist.

Dual Cast could be interesting with self-untappers like Pala-Pili,Puresight Merrow, or Horseshoe Crab.

Am I reading Ghostly Flicker right in that it can exile and return up to 6 cards?

[TsumiBand]

If Melira weren't so much better, Cathars' Crusade could be fun with persist.

Dual Cast could be interesting with self-untappers like Pala-Pili,Puresight Merrow, or Horseshoe Crab.

Am I reading Ghostly Flicker right in that it can exile and return up to 6 cards?

Pretty sure it's two targets, and those targets can be any mix or artifact, creature or land. Otherwise that card would be insane in any Tide deck and instantly desirable over Turnabout whenever you're using it to go off.

[rufus]

Pretty sure it's two targets, and those targets can be any mix or artifact, creature or land. Otherwise that card would be insane in any Tide deck and instantly desirable over Turnabout whenever you're using it to go off.

I guess you're right though Wot:C does play fast and loose with "and/or" - for example in the "choose one or both" cards you can clearly choose both. (FWIW the 2-6 targets version would probably not have been that strong in high tide decks since those don't play that many creatures or artifacts.)

[TsumiBand]

I guess you're right though Wot:C does play fast and loose with "and/or" - for example in the "choose one or both" cards you can clearly choose both. (FWIW the 2-6 targets version would probably not have been that strong in high tide decks since those don't play that many creatures or artifacts.)

I have to disagree, on the basis that both the Sorcery speed variants and the Reset-based variants can rock Candelabra of Tawnos. And the Sorcery speed version could flicker all kinds of shenanigatory creatures, like Cloud of Fairies and potentially Snapcaster Mage. Being able to just untap that many lands via Candelabra and/or replay those ETB trigger on Fairies and Snapcasters would open it up to generate so much mana really early in their attempt to go off.

[Malakai]

I think if Merfolk had any chance of coming back, this card killed them. Frankly, I'm glad Merfolk and CounterTop died and I won't miss them.

11-2-1 across my last three local tournaments with CounterTop. :D

[Aggro_zombies]

I think if Merfolk had any chance of coming back, this card killed them. Frankly, I'm glad Merfolk and CounterTop died and I won't miss them.
This is Legacy. People will continue to play outdated decks for years.

[DragoFireheart]

This is Legacy. People will continue to play outdated decks for years.

- You know what I mean. :smile:

As fun decks that they enjoy? Yeah, they'll stick around forever.

As tier-1 decks? Nah, they've had their time to shine but are dated in the current meta.

Could they come back? Yeah, but not likely any time soon.

[morgan_coke]

Pretty sure Maverick is really the new Merfolk - the deck that beats the blue decks and does ok vs. combo.

[Basara]

Pretty sure Maverick is really the new Merfolk - the deck that beats the blue decks and does ok vs. combo.

thats because combo players are playing silly and slow combos like ant,hightide,showandtell... they need to switch to ultraggressive combo decks like belcher or spanish inquisition...what can maverick do to them?.

Use capitalization please. Thanks. -zilla

[DragoFireheart]

thats because combo players are playing silly and slow combos like ant,hightide,showandtell... they need to switch to ultraggressive combo decks like belcher or spanish inquisition...what can maverick do to them?.

Let the blue decks beat them and then crush the blue decks in the later rounds...?

Edit: Why in the world would I play Belcher when FoW exists? Doesn't it still fold to a single counter spell?

[Koby]

Let the blue decks beat them and then crush the blue decks in the later rounds...?

Rule #35 of Maverick - If someone else can do your dirty work, beat up on those decks.

[DragoFireheart]

Rule #35 of Maverick - If someone else can do your dirty work, beat up on those decks.

Sounds Maverick is the Mafia and Blade Control decks are oppressed Italian immigrants while Combo decks are the U.S government.

[KobeBryan]

Rule #35 of Maverick - If someone else can do your dirty work, beat up on those decks.

What happens if you match up against them in the first two rounds...

[DrJones]

What happens if you match up against them in the first two rounds...You try to get three byes to avoid playing the random rounds, like every pro does. Then, you only have to play against the decks you know you can beat.

[Koby]

What happens if you match up against them in the first two rounds...

That's when you start looking for bars open at 11 AM.

[matunos]

If Cavern of Souls is so fantastic, shouldn't the decks that would want 4 of them already be playing Leyline of Lifeforce? I know it doesn't produce mana, but still.

[rxavage]

That's when you start looking for bars open at 11 AM.

The real classy ones open at 6 am.

[I am the brainwasher]

That's when you start looking for bars open at 11 AM.
:laugh:
Sadly, I am not that ballsy and still try to fight myself outta the Dredge MU with these 3 misely pisely sb-slots every time instead of ignoring those completely, which seems to have the exact same effect... .

[DragoFireheart]

If Cavern of Souls is so fantastic, shouldn't the decks that would want 4 of them already be playing Leyline of Lifeforce? I know it doesn't produce mana, but still.

LoL is lol. It's a bad card, while CoS can still cast things like Aether Vial and land a turn-one Lackey without filling our deck with bad cards.

[DrJones]

If Cavern of Souls is so fantastic, shouldn't the decks that would want 4 of them already be playing Leyline of Lifeforce? I know it doesn't produce mana, but still.That's a good question. Here's the problem with Leyline of Lifeforce.

1. You need to have 4 in your deck but they are dead cards in multiples.
2. It isn't uncounterable, and if you don't have it in your initial hand, you have to cast it. It's stupid to play a card against counters that it's itself vulnerable to counters.
3. Regardless of what the manual says about blue having troubles with permanents, blue can easily deal with creatures and enchantments.
4. It doesn't impact the board. You have to make your deck worse in order to partially protect against counterspells.

The second and third points are the reasons why Gaea's Herald doesn't see play either. The only card that almost makes the cut is Xanthid Swarm, but it's again counterable, and a very weak creature that not only dies to removal, but to any flying creature.

[Greenpoe]

Insidious Dreams + any number of Miracles is a neat combo (and it's an instant!). Getting 4 extra turns on turn 5 sounds pretty cool.

[Koby]

Getting 4 extra turns on turn 5 sounds pretty cool.

I'm sold. Temporal mastery is the real deal. Turn 5 auto-win!*

*Oh wait, I need to discard 4 cards? and tie up :7::b::u::u::u::u: over 5 turns? And resolve all five of these? What could possibly go wrong?

[Barook]

Insidious Dreams + any number of Miracles is a neat combo (and it's an instant!). Getting 4 extra turns on turn 5 sounds pretty cool.
Too bad you go -5 CA.

[Kich867]

I'm sold. Temporal mastery is the real deal. Turn 5 auto-win!*

*Oh wait, I need to discard 4 cards? and tie up :7::b::u::u::u::u: over 5 turns? And resolve all five of these? What could possibly go wrong?

Well, when you resolve the first one you inherently resolve the rest unless they're actually sandbagging that force for your fourth extra turn--but that sounds suboptimal and mind games can only really go so far.

Aside from that though it's a terrible play. You lose out on 4 draw steps and unless you have something to beat them to death with I don't see the extra turns doing anything.

[Vacrix]

Honestly, I'd rather Insidious Dreams for Reforge the Soul, and then go nuts.

[xfxf]

I'd rather be a very good TES player and kill you on Turn 2. (not you in particular to the above poster, you in general)

[SpikeyMikey]

I don't think Insidious Dreams is where you want to be. However, while I, personally, am not willing to put the time in, I would not dismiss the idea that there might be a playable Doomsday aggro deck with this. I've been playing with Temporal Mastery in a New Horizons (Eternal Horizons, note the name now, bitches!) shell and what I've found is this:

The biggest complaint I see, and it was outlined in Ari Lax's article on the card today, boils down to "it's a win more card". Play something with impact, they say. But I've had a number of games that have been won on the back of setting up a Time Walk. I'm playing against burn. I'm at 5 life and he's tapped out with 3 cards in hand. He's at 18. I have a Hierarch and a 2/2 Terravore. I EoT set up Mastery with Brainstorm. Untap, Walk, drop KotR, Waste one of my duals, swing in for 5, putting him to 12. Take my second turn. Waste a second dual, swing in for 13 and win the game. If Temporal Mastery is a counterspell there, I probably lose that game. He's got 3 cards in hand and will draw a 4th and 5th one before I can close it out. Two burn spells will kill me. Possibly 1, if it's a PoP. I can counter 1 thing. Plow is about as good as a counterspell there.

Of course, we can walk through scenarios where the card has been good or bad all day long. So here's the point. It's a card that, if you're slightly behind, can buy you the breathing room to catch up. If you've got an advantage on board, it can win you the game, right now. This is a swingy format. Having an advantage is not the same as being able to keep the advantage. Temporal Mastery is scary for the same reason that Psychatog was scary. It's a time bomb. Psychatog on turn 3, not that amazing. Mediocre on defense. But you have to play around it, turn in and turn out, because the moment your guard is down, they're Cunning Wishing for a Berserk and just like that, you've lost. All the incremental jockeying meant nothing. Sometimes, it's just an Explore. Sometimes, it's just an Evermind. But the same could've been said for Decree of Justice back in the day. Sometimes, you're just going to cycle it hoping to draw into a card that's relevant. And sometimes, you're going to crack it under Standstill for 6 duders and you're going to give people fits.

Is its power level situational? Of course. But so is the power level of cards like Lion's Eye Diamond, Wasteland, Force of Will, Swords to Plowshares, Hymn to Tourach, etc. Will the power level be above the curve often enough to make it worth running? I say for a lot of decks, yes, it will. I think it's a high impact card. Not a 'break the format in half' card, but an impact card, like Green Sun's Zenith. Think about how much Zenith has changed the format without ever hitting anyone's radar as "broken". Temporal Mastery will be like that.

[Mr. Safety]

I always appreciate your comments, SpikeyMikey. I was thinking that Temporal Mastery would fit best in BantAggro/New Horizons myself. Not as a 4-shot, but definately 2-3 to be enabled by Brainstorms and Horizon Canopy's.

I am more keen to see the impact of Reforge the Soul than Temporal Mastery, but both are going to shake up the format for sure.

[matunos]

3. Regardless of what the manual says about blue having troubles with permanents, blue can easily deal with creatures and enchantments.

That's really what keeps this land from being such awesomesauce in legacy. Control decks usually focus on creature removal over creature counters. Sure, if you can counter a SFM, Tarmogoyf, or a Dark Confidant (all reachable with Spell Snare), you typically do, but legacy's current tier 1 control barely runs counters and rarely uses them on creatures unless the timing is just right. Otherwise, what are those 4 Swords to Plowshares for?

So, it may be good if you run a lot of creatures susceptible to Spell Snare or don't want to have to play around Daze, but other than that, your creatures probably weren't getting countered all that much anyway (they might be getting Inquisitioned and Thought-seized, though), and now you have a land that can only be used to produce colored mana for a subset of them (unless you're playing a tribal deck).

Is it terrible? Probably not. Does it make Maverick 10 times better off against Stoneblade than it was before? Probably not. Anyway, we can still counter GSZ.

[Wanderlust]

Something that actually seems worth tutoring up with Personal Tutor.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/avr/a40w6ujz9w_en.jpg

[Cire]

I know i spoke of this before....but i think this is a viable direction for a miracle deck

4 Banishing Stroke
4 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
4 Temporal Mastery
4 Devastating Tide
4 Fade Away
4 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Thunderous Wrath
4 Brainstorm
4 ScrollRack
20 lands

Yes it's extremely dumb...but hear me out.. You are guaranteed to draw into a miracle card 1/2 the time...and you get a broken effect for the cost... removal, mass removal, time walk, massive amount of tokens, etc.... If you draw into Scroll rack/Brainstorm, you can now set up any amount of broken plays, or keep your opponents board clear of creatures and permanents. Will it beat combo? No. Does it seem like a hilarious use of miracle? Hell Yeah!

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Something that actually seems worth tutoring up with Personal Tutor.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/avr/a40w6ujz9w_en.jpg

That's... insanely good. Terribly ironically superior in pretty much every way except pitching to Force of Will to Temporal Mastery in Blade Control decks.

[Oiolosse]

One of my favorite cards, Ancestral Knowledge, will get tested yet again. It'll take a miracle (or tw0), so we'll see!

[TsumiBand]

I know i spoke of this before....but i think this is a viable direction for a miracle deck

4 Banishing Stroke
4 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
4 Temporal Mastery
4 Devastating Tide
4 Fade Away
4 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Thunderous Wrath
4 Brainstorm
4 ScrollRack
20 lands

Yes it's extremely dumb...but hear me out.. You are guaranteed to draw into a miracle card 1/2 the time...and you get a broken effect for the cost... removal, mass removal, time walk, massive amount of tokens, etc.... If you draw into Scroll rack/Brainstorm, you can now set up any amount of broken plays, or keep your opponents board clear of creatures and permanents. Will it beat combo? No. Does it seem like a hilarious use of miracle? Hell Yeah!

To be fair, Entreat the Angels does look pretty fucking good. 2WW for 8 power in the air? Sweet Jesus.

Terminus is probably going to make a lot of EDH players very sad.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm not sure if Scroll Rack is going to make the cut, but if they're going to print such a critical mass of incredibly powerful Miracle effects, it's certainly worth considering if completely building around that engine is worthwhile. Although it's probably worth not over-committing. The following seems reasonable to me;

Manabase; 23 lands (15 fetchlands/duals, 4 Halimar Depths, 4 Mishra's Factory?)

Enablers: 4 Brainstorm, 3 Sensei's Divining Top, 3 JtMS, ... 2 Condescend?

Independently undercosted cards: 4 Force, 4 StP

Miracle Cards: 3 Banishing Stroke, 4 Fade Away, 3 Terminus, 3 Entreat the Angels, 4 Temporal Mastery

I'm not sure about bannings, but it seems to have the seeds of greatness. It's probably going to be completely incorrect to not maindeck Gaddock Teeg in Maverick for a while.

Also;


4 Fade Away


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt_zum97kjE

[morgan_coke]

Ok, so does this make Long-Term Plans a real thing now? Or is it still junk?

Cause, I mean with top, you can tutor and then cast a miracle during your opponents' end step with this thing. Or with brainstorm you can set it up for your draw phase.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Still junk. It does mean that Mystical Tutor will probably never be unbanned.

[majikal]

The part of me that flies into a murderous rage when people topdeck their outs wants someone to bleed because of this set. I will likely not play Standard until this block rotates and god only knows what I'll do if this bullshit becomes widespread in Legacy.

[matunos]

The part of me that flies into a murderous rage when people topdeck their outs wants someone to bleed because of this set. I will likely not play Standard until this block rotates and god only knows what I'll do if this bullshit becomes widespread in Legacy.

In Legacy, you make your own topdecks.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Miracle Wrath seems really fucking dumb in standard.
Yay conditional 1 cmc Day of Judgement, but better because it doesn't activate Undying, allow recursion, or trigger dying, and Troll can't regenerate. Miracle should be called Lucksac, because that's what a lot of games are going to come down to when you can randomly draw into a 1 cmc board wipe then have all your other mana to drop a bomb. Can't wait to see what Standard looks like after all this. There's just no way something from this set isn't going to make it just awful though. Oh well.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I can just imagine Mark Rosewater and Tom LaPille sitting around; "Okay, now how can we make Standard more swingy?"

[dontbiteitholmes]

What do the players want hmmm....
Oh I know, they want more games to be decided by random top decks!

[majikal]

This is obviously a growth by destruction move. The game's economy is in danger of collapsing under its own weight, so they need to cull some of the players to make it more sustainable.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This is obviously a growth by destruction move. The game's economy is in danger of collapsing under its own weight, so they need to cull some of the players to make it more sustainable.

If we don't kill them, they'll die.

[Kich867]

What do the players want hmmm....
Oh I know, they want more games to be decided by random top decks!

Isn't that what the game is decided by already? I mean there's your opening 7 or whatever which kind of dictate how the game may start but the rest of it is just random top decks that you hope aren't totally shit against whatever you're playing.

Even the initial 7 are just random top decks.. The only way around that would be if magic up and decided to let players choose their opening 7 cards, which is an interesting prospect.

[Humphrey]

Every time I hear Miracle, this sound starts in my head.
Dont listen to it ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DaY8-Mui0I

[Leftconsin]

I can just imagine Mark Rosewater and Tom LaPille sitting around; "Okay, now how can we make Standard more swingy?"

After watching an interview of Rosewater at the last PT I'm absolutely certain that's true.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

One mana super-wrath? Are you kidding me? I don't really know if it's broken, but this Miracle mechanic is going to cause some serious rage. Tables will be flipped, hulkouts will occur, etc.

[bruizar]

So, how conditional are miracle cards when you run a whole deck of them? Sure your opener sucks, but each consecutive card you draw is heavily undercosted/splashy. I don't think I would play a deck like that, but it makes me wonder.

[lordofthepit]

Something that actually seems worth tutoring up with Personal Tutor.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/avr/a40w6ujz9w_en.jpg

I'm guessing that this is the Miracle card that will see the most play in Legacy. (Reforge the Soul being the most powerful in a vacuum.)

[majikal]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130279&stc=1&d=1334817311

Uhh... Take that, Swords to Plowshares?

Also holy shit this guy is good. Pitch to FoW early in the game and then fucking cast it when you need to close the deal. Nice.

[phonics]

What the fuck, I dont understand how these cards are supposed to make the game better (more fun, more skill intensive, whatever), or even remain at parity. The other cards could be argued either way, but I think Hollowed Burial for W is just stupid.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Isn't that what the game is decided by already? I mean there's your opening 7 or whatever which kind of dictate how the game may start but the rest of it is just random top decks that you hope aren't totally shit against whatever you're playing.

Even the initial 7 are just random top decks.. The only way around that would be if magic up and decided to let players choose their opening 7 cards, which is an interesting prospect.

Most games are decided by drawing cards then using your best judgement on when to play them for the maximum effect, not wheeling off your top card and playing it instantly with zero thought because it is now extremely undercosted. If I wanted to do that I'd play poker or war. I want to think about how to play the cards at the right time and in the right order and let strategy decide the game as much as possible. Randomness is already a part of the game, I don't think anyone was particularly asking for more games to be decided by some random variable instead of play skill.

[Koby]

I'm going into hibernation. Wake me up with Ravnica Returns.

[Leftconsin]

So, "Activate Relic of Progenitus. Target myself" is a thing now.

[Kich867]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130279&stc=1&d=1334817311

Uhh... Take that, Swords to Plowshares?

Also holy shit this guy is good. Pitch to FoW early in the game and then fucking cast it when you need to close the deal. Nice.

This is probably the most well designed card I've seen so far from the set. It's not impractically broken, it's just very, very cool. This gives Mono Blue Control a late-game beater that they pretty badly need, on top of making force pitches a bit easier--who cares about pitching it to force, it's basically still in your hand anyways.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Am I the only one who noticed its a 3/3 for :2::u::u: whose ability isn't even necessarily useful? Lightning bolt is a thing. Sure you can pitch it to force, but if that is the best use for this card I don't see it even being good in niche decks.

[Aggro_zombies]

Am I the only one who noticed its a 3/3 for :2::u::u: whose ability isn't even necessarily useful? Lightning bolt is a thing. Sure you can pitch it to force, but if that is the best use for this card I don't see it even being good in niche decks.
This. "Pitch it to Force, spend a million mana to get a 3/3 that dies to my opponent's 3/2 that he flipped on turn two" does not seem like the best thing ever.

I mean, on turn four in blue, you can tap out for Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Why in God's name would you ever want to tap out for a 3/3 flying? Or wait until you can cast a 3/3 flying with mana up? That seems terrible in every way. The marginal extra value you get from Force won't matter when you're still required to pay retail to actually get it.

[majikal]

This. "Pitch it to Force, spend a million mana to get a 3/3 that dies to my opponent's 3/2 that he flipped on turn two" does not seem like the best thing ever.

I mean, on turn four in blue, you can tap out for Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Why in God's name would you ever want to tap out for a 3/3 flying? Or wait until you can cast a 3/3 flying with mana up? That seems terrible in every way. The marginal extra value you get from Force won't matter when you're still required to pay retail to actually get it.

Who said anything about maindecking it? It seems like it breaks Stoneblade mirrors wide open and probably has some applications against a few other grindy decks.

MUC might want it. It's just a good card. It's well-designed.

[Suneloon]

This. "Pitch it to Force, spend a million mana to get a 3/3 that dies to my opponent's 3/2 that he flipped on turn two" does not seem like the best thing ever.

I mean, on turn four in blue, you can tap out for Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Why in God's name would you ever want to tap out for a 3/3 flying? Or wait until you can cast a 3/3 flying with mana up? That seems terrible in every way. The marginal extra value you get from Force won't matter when you're still required to pay retail to actually get it.

I generally agree with what you say. But is it not possible that a blue creature that just keeps comming back (paired with something like the already mentioned relic of prog), has a place in legacy? Maybe in MUC?

Edit: Dang, beaten to it!

[allek]

Misthollow Griffin = inf mana with Food Chain, right?

Great design for a mythic card, just wish they would stop with the CGI-artwork.

[majikal]

Misthollow Griffin = inf mana with Food Chain, right?

Well that didn't take long.

[Gheizen64]

This. "Pitch it to Force, spend a million mana to get a 3/3 that dies to my opponent's 3/2 that he flipped on turn two" does not seem like the best thing ever.

I mean, on turn four in blue, you can tap out for Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Why in God's name would you ever want to tap out for a 3/3 flying? Or wait until you can cast a 3/3 flying with mana up? That seems terrible in every way. The marginal extra value you get from Force won't matter when you're still required to pay retail to actually get it.

I agree, seems more cute than actually good, and sadly JTMS trump everything in blue at 2UU. However, it's really really cute. Force with no card disadvantage? Misdirection for 0? Relic of progenitus for infinite recursion?? Relic is already borderline maindeckable anyway.

[Kich867]

Who said anything about maindecking it? It seems like it breaks Stoneblade mirrors wide open and probably has some applications against a few other grindy decks.

MUC might want it. It's just a good card. It's well-designed.

^ This.

This is why I don't understand a lot of complaints about magic these days. People cry about powercreep but, shit, if the card isn't insanely broken it's the worst fucking thing on Earth. You do it to yourselves. Do I need to recap on the dozens people who legit said that R for 4 damage was mediocre at best? Or that a 1 mana 4/3 was just barely legacy playable?

Can you imagine if every card was this well designed and not just gross powercreep? Good cards that have subtle synergy with the decks they belong in, that fix and solve problems in an interesting way without being just horribly overpowered.

I would shit bricks if they went back to designing cards like this more often, but they don't, they just cram as much bullshit into each new set as they can because they think it's going to make each successive set feel that much more epic. But what they don't realize is that what made awesome, recognizable cards in the first place was their scarcity in a sea of mediocrity. And not that mediocrity is bad, but there was a point when cards were chosen because they were good, not because they were broken.

[DLifshitz]

Something that actually seems worth tutoring up with Personal Tutor.

Looks like Maverick has a problem, for the next couple of months at least.

On an unrelated note, I'm selling my playset of Korean FNM Brainstorms altered by H. R. Giger and ceremonially sanctified by Cardinal Ratzinger.

[Basaka]

Misthollow Griffin = inf mana with Food Chain, right?

I want to build this now. lmao

8 mana dorks
4 food chains
4 bird
3 Emrakul
4 intuition...

[Tinefol]

I don't like this shit with Food Chain, really. You get an added bonus of free Force of Wills for a combo deck? A permanent, which is hard to hate on? Please, no.

[Kich867]

I don't like this shit with Food Chain, really. You get an added bonus of free Force of Wills for a combo deck? A permanent, which is hard to hate on? Please, no.

If you think it through it's not even remotely scary.

They need to have emrakul in hand, food chain out, and this card. The deck has no other reliable means of winning. There have been easier 3 card combos that have been dismissed as unplayable.

[Basaka]

Well, blue has an instant Demonic tutor for 2U...

[Vacrix]

Noxious Revival is looking better and better as they spoil more Miracles. It looks DOPE with Terminus.