Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SIMMERING POT OF FECAL MATTER]

[Tinefol]

If you think it through it's not even remotely scary.

They need to have emrakul in hand, food chain out, and this card. The deck has no other reliable means of winning. There have been easier 3 card combos that have been dismissed as unplayable.

I don't really consider Emrakul a part of combo, since food chain can easily run stuff like Fierce Empath to double on it and a shit load of digging creatures (Mulldrifter, Raven Familiar, Court Houssar, Coiling Oracle, Wall of Blossoms) to find anything it needs. And uhm, why wouldn't you run Show and Tell in such kind of deck, giving you another edge of attack with Emrakul? And Brainstorm to setup on early turns?

And even if you don't find Emrakul, dropping a bunch of flying 2/2s and 3/3s on table as early as on turn 2 isn't that bad, right?

There's also an Imperial Recruiter route, which can let you combo off of a single Recruiter. Or even something as shitty as Maga, Traitor to Mortals and god knows how many other possible kills.

[lordofthepit]

I imagine that a U/G Food Chain combo deck would run Coiling Oracle and Green Sun's Zenith, with probably a Fierce Empath to quickly assemble the combo.

[xfxf]

Well, blue has an instant Demonic tutor for 2U...

Can you guys include textual descriptions as well. Sometimes the images don't load.

[Vacrix]

No blue does not have a Instant Demonic tutor for 2U do you have any idea how good that would be...

He's referring to Long-Term Plans in combination with Miracle, which is still terrible. Lim-Dul's Vault is way better.

[bruizar]

Just bought out 4 foil food chains. Mercadian Masques+Rare+foil=ingredients for becoming expensive. was already a high potential card, and this exile bird at the very least will bring more attention to the card. I like it.

[Willoe]

I don't really consider Emrakul a part of combo, since food chain can easily run stuff like Fierce Empath to double on it and a shit load of digging creatures (Mulldrifter, Raven Familiar, Court Houssar). And uhm, why wouldn't you run Show and Tell in such kind of deck, giving you another edge of attack with Emrakul? And Brainstorm to setup on early turns?

Well, that is a point, but the Sphinx does not necessarily break the deck in half. Being able to create infinite mana is nothing when you don't have anything to spend that mana on. While I agree it is indeed nice to be able to ramp up to Emrakul or any other large creature by just using this, ramping up in Food Chain decks is not that hard anyway. The -real- advantage with using the Sphinx is that it is replayable when pitched to FoW, thus rendering it immune to discard afterwards since it is now exiled. Having FoW backup and this in hand when playing Food Chain seems like a strong play, but the problem with Food Chain has at some point always been that you have to pass a turn unless you already have a creature on the battlefield which in most cases you haven't because most opponents can figure out to kill your pre-Food Chain creatures since removal won't help them once Food Chain is on the battlefield.

Talking about Food Chain, I'd prefer to squeeze 1-2 Griselbrand into the deck rather than this unless of course it is possible to do both. Being able to draw 7-14 cards seems much more appealing than creating infinite mana, actually. Myojin of Seeing Winds was insane already, but that was much more expensive (although blue mana is easier to ramp up) and drew less cards.

EDIT: Well, it wasn't insane, guess it was mediocre :D. Griselbrand is a much stronger draw engine and a win condition (although shaky) itself.

[mrjumbo03]

No blue does not have a Instant Demonic tutor for 2U do you have any idea how good that would be...

He's referring to Long-Term Plans in combination with Miracle, which is still terrible. Lim-Dul's Vault is way better.

I think based on what he said prior to that, he meant Intuition.

[lavafrogg]

Has anyone considered Wind of Death as playable? Seems like it would be playable but I'm not sure if it is better than smother.

[bruizar]

With that UG Flash land, we could generate infinite mana during opponents turn. Cute, but most likely a useless interaction requiring way too much mana.



Has anyone considered Wind of Death as playable? Seems like it would be playable but I'm not sure if it is better than smother.

I think it's too mana intensive. Black has too many better alternatives. Darkblast, Ghastly Demise, Dismember, Frailty, Go for the Throat, Diabolic Edict, Tragic Slip, Smother, etc.

[Basaka]

I think based on what he said prior to that, he meant Intuition.

Yes, I mean intuition. Going to go pick up a few more this weekend methinks.

[Humphrey]

I wonder if theyre going to explore the exiled zone as a new resource any further? Maybe some kind of new wishes or reanimation?

To bad they changed the exiled/outside of game ruling, it would be hilarious if you could cast the bird out of the sideboard.

Food Chain combo: Never ever. If you want a bad combodeck with creaturs run Aluren.

[bruizar]

I wonder if theyre going to explore the exiled zone as a new resource any further? Maybe some kind of new wishes or reanimation?

To bad they changed the exiled/outside of game ruling, it would be hilarious if you could cast the bird out of the sideboard.

Food Chain combo: Never ever. If you want a bad combodeck with creaturs run Aluren.

Perhaps, but the fact is people will try (and possibly fail) to make this work. I recall there being an Elves adaptation with Food Chain and this just gives it more potential. I think it's a good card to speculate on and think it will atleast go from 10$ to 20$/30$ just like defense of the heart, eladamri's call and Pattern of Rebirth.

[Gheizen64]

Also combo nicely with Moorland Haunt

[Wanderlust]

Misthollow Griffin seems fun to tutor up with:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/in/60.jpg

I wish Manipulate Fate was an instant though.

[DragoFireheart]

Miracle mechanic is fucking stupid.

Also, that Owl plus Food Chain... lol. Can't even swords the owl to stop the combo.

[Humphrey]

Also combo nicely with Moorland Haunt

Yeah and Thought Lash

[Digital Devil]

If Misthollow Griffin dies you can also target it with Surgical Extraction to search your library for the remaining copies.

[bruizar]

If Misthollow Griffin dies you can also target it with Surgical Extraction to search your library for the remaining copies.

lol... Exile Hawks

[DrJones]

I think Mistfollow Griffin had no reason to be that aggressively costed unless WotC really intends tournament players to play it.

[Julian23]

I think Mistfollow Griffin had no reason to be that aggressively costed unless WotC really intends tournament players to play it.

What casting cost did it have when you submitted it?

[Teknique]

What casting cost did it have when you submitted it?

Hahahaha. It's too bad for my table that I was drinking when I read this.

[DragoFireheart]

What casting cost did it have when you submitted it?

Oh this is pure gold! I bet the CMC was 6 instead of 4. WotC is being edgy.

On a more serious note, what are some other cards we can abuse the owl with?

[Wereodile]

I think Mistfollow Griffin had no reason to be that aggressively costed unless WotC really intends tournament players to play it.

I think :u::u: 2 is reasonable for a 3/3 with that ability. Standard control decks get a way to keep putting pressure on and I cannot think of a Legacy deck that cannot handle this creature either through destroy effects, burn or counter.

As previously mentioned this may be the first properly designed "cool" card spoiled so far.

[DrJones]

What casting cost did it have when you submitted it?People have been designing that card in "You Make The Card" threads since Swords to Plowshares was in type 2. If it hadn't seen print before is probably more due to an exercise of self-restraining from part of the designers than any other explanation.

[Teknique]

On a more serious note, what are some other cards we can abuse the owl with?
It's likely too slow and mana intensive, but Selective Memory turns your griffins into Squadron Hawks with no hand size limitation.

[rufus]

Oh this is pure gold! I bet the CMC was 6 instead of 4. WotC is being edgy.

On a more serious note, what are some other cards we can abuse the owl with?

The Plunge into Darkness-type tutors and Doomsday should work pretty well.

[Finn]

This is an interesting conversation. I want to interject that there are plenty of cool ways to get copies into exile. While that is certainly the more entertaining part to think about, the real challenge is to figure out how to make a 4 mana creature that does not win the game playable. My guess is that it is not worth the effort of design space.

[TsumiBand]

^ This.

This is why I don't understand a lot of complaints about magic these days. People cry about powercreep but, shit, if the card isn't insanely broken it's the worst fucking thing on Earth. You do it to yourselves. Do I need to recap on the dozens people who legit said that R for 4 damage was mediocre at best? Or that a 1 mana 4/3 was just barely legacy playable?

Can you imagine if every card was this well designed and not just gross powercreep? Good cards that have subtle synergy with the decks they belong in, that fix and solve problems in an interesting way without being just horribly overpowered.

I would shit bricks if they went back to designing cards like this more often, but they don't, they just cram as much bullshit into each new set as they can because they think it's going to make each successive set feel that much more epic. But what they don't realize is that what made awesome, recognizable cards in the first place was their scarcity in a sea of mediocrity. And not that mediocrity is bad, but there was a point when cards were chosen because they were good, not because they were broken.

Agree. The Owl is clearly "just cool", if every card in the set went instantly broken there'd be no point in playing Legacy at all, we'd rotate as often as Standard, and based on what I've seen out of most Legacy players, they kind of prefer it when the format doesn't take a hard turn to the left and everyone needs to buy new staples. Imagine that.

No, the owl is just cool. I mean really just undeniably cool. I'm not sure why it's relevant that turn 4 Jace is a better play; Exile Owl is a means to negate the inherent card disadvantage of Force and other "exile a card" spells, and just because one *could* cast it immediately on turn 4 doesn't imply that it must be cast on turn 4. Instead of describing bad plays with new cards, maybe we might envision best possible plays with those cards instead. The Food Chain combo's been mentioned already, there's probably several more that we haven't touched on yet.

[Awaclus]

I admit that I'm not the best deck builder in the world, but a Food Chain list I came up with that took use of the Griffin got usually kills on turn 4 or 5 if I ran both FoW and Misdirection as protection and about a turn earlier if I didn't run protection at all. And that pretty much sucks for a combo deck.

[Philipp2293]

Keep in mind while building Griffin Chain combo decks that the Griffin is a perfect fine pitch for Chrome Mox ;)

[Tammit67]

I admit that I'm not the best deck builder in the world, but a Food Chain list I came up with that took use of the Griffin got usually kills on turn 4 or 5 if I ran both FoW and Misdirection as protection and about a turn earlier if I didn't run protection at all. And that pretty much sucks for a combo deck.

Yeah but it is a combo deck that

a) Has protection
b) Has a beatdown backup plan

So you know, actually doesn't suck that bad

[Awaclus]

Keep in mind while building Griffin Chain combo decks that the Griffin is a perfect fine pitch for Chrome Mox ;)
I already took notice of that.

[TsumiBand]

Yeah but it is a combo deck that

a) Has protection
b) Has a beatdown backup plan

So you know, actually doesn't suck that bad

See, this doesn't sound shitty at all. It's probably only a Tier 2 strategy at best, but it sounds solid. "Oh, you pwned my combo in an unexpected way? I guess I'll just beat you down with these Owls that I've been countering your shit with." In a weird way it draws comparison to Squadron Hawk in this way; Force this, MisD that, then come at you with a couple of owls in the mid-to-late game. Seems neat. I won't say OP or unfair, just neat. It might actually lead to the first somewhat-playable aggro-control-combo deck. Just play Tangle Wire and it's EVERY ARCHETYPE EVAR

[Barook]

I admit that I'm not the best deck builder in the world, but a Food Chain list I came up with that took use of the Griffin got usually kills on turn 4 or 5 if I ran both FoW and Misdirection as protection and about a turn earlier if I didn't run protection at all. And that pretty much sucks for a combo deck.
Do you mind posting a list?

[TsumiBand]

Keep in mind while building Griffin Chain combo decks that the Griffin is a perfect fine pitch for Chrome Mox ;)

As a side note, Chrome Mox quits producing mana if the exiled card is no longer exiled. Depending on the application, this may be no better than Lotus Petal (except it puts your Owl in exile for you)

[joemauer]

If you guys want to abuse the griffen, I would put him in a planar void U/B control deck.

I don't think planar void sucks on it's own. Making tarmogofy,oozes, and knights of reliquary laughable. Invalidates decks like dredge and reanimator. Stops loam engines. Gives esperblade the finger. Keeps nimble mongoose, nimble.

All the while you get a 3/3 flier that keeps coming back no matter what. Unless people start using the one mana mega wrath of god.

[AndyTron]

Speaking of ooze, he works really well with the owl too.

[bruizar]

Meanwhile, I'm pretty excited about Grislebrand's Scroll. Another 1CC artifact adding new utility to Artificer's Intuition. Not long before that card is so powercreeped that it becomes a deck.

[Barook]

Meanwhile, I'm pretty excited about Grislebrand's Scroll. Another 1CC artifact adding new utility to Artificer's Intuition. Not long before that card is so powercreeped that it becomes a deck.
How is that better than exisitng :1: discard artifacts?

You're unlikely to run demons in such kind of deck.

Edit:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130312&d=1334864178

Any ways to abuse this?

[bruizar]

In such kind of deck, you'd play mutavault over mishra's factory and reuse Grislebrand until you win, either by slow rolling or by going infinite. Basically, you have your win-condition wrapped up in a tutorable reusable discard effect

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

How is that better than exisitng :1: discard artifacts?

You're unlikely to run demons in such kind of deck.

Edit:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130312&d=1334864178

Any ways to abuse this?

No.

[John Cox]

Goblin Recruiter

[I am the brainwasher]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130312&d=1334864178

Any ways to abuse this?

Since Elves could just cast Biorhythm when they start to fart out mana (which they also won't anyway), I think this is quite unplayable, in both Legacy and every other format.
Big-ass Genesis Wave here is not the most horrible design I've seen so far in this set though.

[frogczar]

How is that better than exisitng :1: discard artifacts?

You're unlikely to run demons in such kind of deck.

Edit:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130312&d=1334864178

Any ways to abuse this?

Elves. Easily get to the mana and then dump nearly your entire deck without needing tricks? Seems decent.

[Kich867]

Elves. Easily get to the mana and then dump nearly your entire deck without needing tricks? Seems decent.

Except 1/5th of their deck aren't permanents (GSZ, Pact, Glimpse) and the likelihood of it doing useful things is slim.

Genesis Wave for that casting cost would likely be better.

[Tao]

I am interested to see if Brainstorm will survive the Miracle mechanic. I honestly think this topic deserves its own thread but I am not sure if the Mods would survive that.

LSV argued that Brainstorm will probably get banned, and in my opinion a UW deck based on Brainstorm + a few Scroll Racks to support the new Wrath, Time Walk and Entreat the Angels (all in numbers from 0-4 since I don't want to argue on how good they are) seems awfully strong.

[Freggle]

How is that better than exisitng :1: discard artifacts?

You're unlikely to run demons in such kind of deck.

Edit:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130312&d=1334864178

Any ways to abuse this?

Enchantress

[I am the brainwasher]

Enchantress

When you have the luxury to reach that much mana you are either winning already, or if this is topdecked, you could also cast Replenish, which would have basically the same effect against decks were you rely heavily on the strength of a single situational card, which sems much more doable than trying to get primal.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I am interested to see if Brainstorm will survive the Miracle mechanic. I honestly think this topic deserves its own thread but I am not sure if the Mods would survive that.

LSV argued that Brainstorm will probably get banned, and in my opinion a UW deck based on Brainstorm + a few Scroll Racks to support the new Wrath, Time Walk and Entreat the Angels (all in numbers from 0-4 since I don't want to argue on how good they are) seems awfully strong.

I think we should operate on the assumption that this is a direct assault on Brainstorm and likely Top. The costing of Miracle cards that we've seen only makes remote sense if there's not a cheap and easy way to manipulate the top of your deck, and certainly not to swap them back. If it had just been Temporal Mastery I don't think it would be a problem, but there's rapidly becoming a critical mass of these spells. UW certainly seems ridiculous with these cards. I was also shocked at how much Flores missed the boat with why a single mana Wrath is so strong. It's not that you want to cast it turn two; it's that when you do cast it, you can then also be the first to take a move, and/or keep counter magic open for their next drop. Going Wrath, Jace in the same turn just became perfectly feasible.

And it's not like any single card in this setup being banned would necessarily solve the problem (although Terminus is probably the most powerful of the Miracle cards, the others in conjunction still represent a serious threat.)

I'm revising my previous estimate. Previously I estimated a 1% chance that either Brainstorm and/or Top would be banned as fallout from TM. As fallout from all these Miracle cards? I put it at 70%.

On the plus side, these cards make Judge Unworthy totes playable.

[Leftconsin]

I'd still much rather play Genesis Wave over that in Elves. Genesis Wave for 5 is usually going to put you far enough ahead for you to win. And then you aren't running into problems with flipping something you really don't want to see like a redundant Cradle, a Green Sun's Zenith, another one of the spell you're resolving, or any utility spells you have. Primal Surge demands you build around it far too much to profit from it, and I don't want to build around a 10 mana sorcery.

[I am the brainwasher]

When that finally happens, I am jumping around between all different kinds of band-wagons of "WotC tries to kill off Legacy".
Banning Brainstorm is like pushing the red button.

[Nihil Credo]

Just to finish the pileup: anything Primal Surge can do is unlikely to compare favourably to what Tooth and Nail can do (win the game on the spot, with the extra flexibility to handle most potential roadblocks), and the former brings significantly more deckbuilding constraints.


On the plus side, these cards make Judge Unworthy totes playable.

:brofist: I always loved that card, and Riddle of Lightning even more although that one's a tad expensive.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oh man, I so wish Riddle was playable though.

[morgan_coke]

If you re-arrange the letters in Riddle of Lightning they spell "Voldemort runs WOTC"

[DrJones]

At this point, I guess that expecting Brainstorm not to be banned after these miracle previews is like expecting Tinker not to be banned shortly after Mirrodin's release. Gentleman's agreement notwithstanding.

[Zinch]

On the plus side, these cards make Judge Unworthy totes playable.

Wow... good call on Judge Unworthy! It is a real combo with miracle cards because they have a ver high CMC...

[Barook]

Brainstorm and maybe Top have a good chance of getting the axe now. Stuff like the :w: Wrath are retarded, but not ban-worthy.

Personal Tutor is probably going to be banned as well.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I doubt Personal Tutor will be banned. The thing with Brainstorm and Top is that Brainstorm was already the best card in Legacy, and Top probably in the top five. They did not need any help being amazingly solid cards. And yet they follow up Delver with this shit.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

If they ban Brainstorm (and as much as I'm not a big fan of Blue dominance, I wouldn't want to see it go), I hope they have the balls to reprint it except color-shifted to Red. That way at least the effect still stays, just in what is arguably the weakest color. Or they could just axe all the miracles, because fucking miracles, how do they work?

[(nameless one)]

If they ban Brainstorm (and as much as I'm not a big fan of Blue dominance, I wouldn't want to see it go), I hope they have the balls to reprint it except color-shifted to Red. That way at least the effect still stays, just in what is arguably the weakest color. Or they could just axe all the miracles, because fucking miracles, how do they work?

Highly unlikely. They did banned Preordain and Ponder in Modern.

If they do print a red Brainstorm, mono-red storm might be viable in Modern.

[Nihil Credo]

I am interested to see if Brainstorm will survive the Miracle mechanic. I honestly think this topic deserves its own thread but I am not sure if the Mods would survive that.
You are Enlightened.

No talk of banning until there are actual Miracle lists out there that people actually agree are at least as good as the non-Miracle versions.

[Tao]

Well, I am too lazy to build or test UW Miracle if Brainstorm gets banned anyway, but you could basically start the thread about it in the DtB forum.

[Cire]

Well, I am too lazy to build or test UW Miracle if Brainstorm gets banned anyway, but you could basically start the thread about it in the DtB forum.

Well no agreed upon build right now, but i started a thread in the new and development section. Miracle Whip! #lamenameftw

[majikal]

How is that better than exisitng :1: discard artifacts?

You're unlikely to run demons in such kind of deck.

Edit:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130312&d=1334864178

Any ways to abuse this?
My Azusa EDH deck wants this so badly!

[Mr. Safety]

Will Primal Surge get played in Elves Combo potentially? It seems like a half-decent Glimpse #5 if you can ramp into it.

I can see this card going into a deck that plays all creatures and Concordant Crossroads. Ramp to 10 mana (not really that hard in green with 12-post) and then play your whole deck, except for the other 3 copies of Primal Surge. Chances are good that you'll get a crap-ton of fat creatures and then swing with them hasted FTW. Kitchen table awesome? Yep. Legacy playable? Meh, probably not...

[DrJones]

Elves combo would rather play Recycle than this card. In fact, they would probably play Primordial Sage instead of Recycle. So it won't see play in that deck.

EDIT: I just noticed you didn't read the card properly, it's much worse than what you imagine.

[Mr. Safety]

So you only repeat the process once? I figured if you put a permanent onto the battlefield you repeated the process indefinately until you exile a non-permanent card.

Bummer...that would have been pretty good.

[Humphrey]

Generic UW Miracle
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23637-UW-Miracle

[Tao]

Generic UW Miracle
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23637-UW-Miracle

It really needs the Miracle Decree. The card is insane, except for not being pitchable for FoW (even) better than the Time Walk.

[Greenpoe]

So you only repeat the process once? I figured if you put a permanent onto the battlefield you repeated the process indefinately until you exile a non-permanent card.

Bummer...that would have been pretty good.

The problem is it's a sorcery. If you run any more than 1x Primal Surge, you're going to run into the other Primal Surges, which makes inconsistency an issue - and at 10 mana, that is not good.

[Nonex]

I figured if you put a permanent onto the battlefield you repeated the process indefinately until you exile a non-permanent card.

That's how it works. If it was to be repeated only once, it could as well read "Exile the top two cards of your library. You may put any number of permanent cards exiled this way onto the battlefield".

[matunos]

That's how it works. If it was to be repeated only once, it could as well read "Exile the top two cards of your library. You may put any number of permanent cards exiled this way onto the battlefield".

Technically, that wording would produce a different result if the first card is not a permanent.

[Nonex]

True, in that case you can go the Contagion Engine's way: exile the top card, if it's a permanent you may put it onto the battlefield, if you do, exile the top card and if it's a permanent you may put it onto the battlefield. Something like that.

[matunos]

True, in that case you can go the Contagion Engine's way: exile the top card, if it's a permanent you may put it onto the battlefield, if you do, exile the top card and if it's a permanent you may put it onto the battlefield. Something like that.

Or just "Then do it again." :cool:

[B.C.]

They already printed that card.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=9788&type=card

[bowvamp]

Ok, I missed out on the spoiling of some of the most recent cards, but here's my initial impressions:
Remand. Well, that's fairly mandatory now.
White. The new blue?

It's funny how good (useful) discard effects are going to be. I mean, everyone is thinking of ways to put these miracles back on top, why not just discard them for some profit?

[edgarps22]

Noxious Revival + Snapcaster Mage makes the discard strategy not so great depending on which miracles they are using. I don't see a lot of heavy discard working too well vs the tempo miracle decks, though probably would fair better against the controlling versions.

[bruizar]

gaddock teeg is gonna be some maindeck stuff for all decks that can support him if miracle cards take off.

[Lemnear]

Isn't it funny that Black is the only color without miracles? At least it get some crappy 5cc enchantments instead lol.

[Vacrix]

I think they had a feeling that Doomsday would go nuts with a good Miracle card, given that they play tons of cantrips and Top.

[Lejay]

Wotc designers are probably completely unaware of DDFT and only think about it as a way to cast Emrakul with shelldock or win with laboratory maniac.

[Leto]

or they simply do it by the flavor ;)

Avacyns return enabled the Miracles, so why should Griselbrands buddies get the good stuff

[atropos]

Isn't it funny that Black is the only color without miracles? At least it get some crappy 5cc enchantments instead lol.

I was thinking about that too but flavor-wise black doesn't seem conducive to miracles. I can see how all the other colors would have miracles but a black rotting pestilential miracle seems unlikely.

[Cthuloo]

I was thinking about that too but flavor-wise black doesn't seem conducive to miracles. I can see how all the other colors would have miracles but a black rotting pestilential miracle seems awesome.

Fixed that for you.

[hyperchord24]

I'm really not feeling the miracle mechanic. Yeah, it's sick to draw one of these things, but it sucks if it's in your opening hand. If I'm in topdeck mode, I would most asuredly take a Wrath of God or the miracle Wrath of God. It reminds me of Street Wraith. Everyone said it'd be a 4-of in every deck, but it wasn't. Still too conditional.

[xfxf]

I don't like the Miracle mechanic in general either. If it sees wide play it will make discard somehow worse due to the fact that topdecks becoming more important than before. You strip their hand, oops then he topdecks an overpowered card.

Plus the randomness and swinginess factor takes away the strategic aspect of the game to a degree. Yes there is always some randomness associated with the game but this doesn't click with me in a way that I can't express with concrete examples.

Third, about Brainstorm and the future of the format. I don't know if it will get banned or not and don't want to discuss it. If it doesn't get banned the two points above will be valid for me. If it gets banned than Legacy will lose a very important strategic component AND will be introduced a very game altering swingy mechanic which will completely change the face of the game. Think of a format where you don't have the skill intensive strategic Brainstorm casts, and now add to it cards where you topdeck and win games. It would be like overpowered standard.

[DragoFireheart]

I doubt WotC even has Legacy on their minds when they make new sets, ignoring exceptions like Mental Misstep.

[I am the brainwasher]

I doubt WotC even has Legacy on their minds when they make new sets, ignoring exceptions like Mental Misstep.

Even worse, they try to force a player-base into other formats to get more money outta it if you ask me.
Besides that, yes, Legacy is the scapegoat of design-mistakes.
This is easily the case because in Vintage, every card that gets or will be printed, is just borderline playable from their powerlevel in comparison to the possibilities the format already offers and it can be highly ignored due to the (more or less wrong) common sense that this the OMGholycrapbrokenturn2killeverytime-format as a justification.
Legacy is a completely different story. The format is not broken enough, nor are the number of players who enjoy the format (still) low enough to treat it the exact same way, to ignore the awful power-creep that WotC has written on their flag. So existing cards/strategies that are totally balanced in terms of powerlevel become unplayable or so much over the top that a banning must reassemble a healthy meta-game as a result.
I don't think that they are not smart enough to have several testing-groups for each format, but honestly, what do you think which group is favoured when it comes down to decide if a card should be printed or not? Legacy? Hell no!
I can't really blame anyone for that, since this procedure ensures that they won't run out of money fairly soon. Packs get selled, MtG is more popular than ever and some part of the player-base has to bite in the sour apple I guess.
I would be pretty pissed if this would come down to me personally, but as long as you decide to play this format, you better start to get used to be pushed around by the games design-team.
Sad but true.

[baghdadbob]

Holy cow that white miracle is a good card! I'm going to have to buy a few boxes of this product. :eek:

[I am the brainwasher]

The format is not broken enough, nor are the number of players who enjoy the format (still) low enough to treat it the exact same way, to ignore the awful power-creep that WotC has written on their flag.


Holy cow that white miracle is a good card! I'm going to have to buy a few boxes of this product. :eek:


Packs get selled, MtG is more popular than ever (...).
Sad but true.

See what I did there?
Oh, the irony... .

[Smea.gol.lum]

While the new miracle mechanic is somehow retarded because it doesn't award tight play and makes the skill-format shift into a 'Ooops, look what i've just topdecked'-format, it still provides an awful lot of options for new decks.

Here's my new untested idea :) :
4 Demonic Dread
4 Violent Outburst
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Fireblast
4 Erratic Explosion
2 Wheel of Fate
4 Seething Song
4 Terminus
4 Reforge the Soul
4 Rift Bolt
4 Runeflare Trap
15 lands

[baghdadbob]

I don't get it... So what are you protesting?

[TorpidNinja]

I don't get it... So what are you protesting?

Clearly that mock-up Reforge decks aren't playing enough Runeflare Trap.

[Lord Seth]

Noxious Revival + Snapcaster Mage makes the discard strategy not so great depending on which miracles they are using. I don't see a lot of heavy discard working too well vs the tempo miracle decks, though probably would fair better against the controlling versions.I think Bowvamp was trying to say that the Miracle cards might work well in a deck that requires you to discard things as you have fodder for it if they end up in your hand, not that discard decks would be effective against miracle decks.

[joven]

Elves combo would rather play Recycle than this card. In fact, they would probably play Primordial Sage instead of Recycle. So it won't see play in that deck.

EDIT: I just noticed you didn't read the card properly, it's much worse than what you imagine.

Soul of the Harvest seems to be a new and better version of Primordial Sage.

[matunos]

Noxious Revival + Snapcaster Mage makes the discard strategy not so great depending on which miracles they are using. I don't see a lot of heavy discard working too well vs the tempo miracle decks, though probably would fair better against the controlling versions.

Except for random discard, the solution is to not make them discard the miracle if you can see that gives them a path to casting it. Unless the miracle isn't all that great and you're happy to let them waste their time on it. Otherwise, take the Snapcaster.

Vendilion Clique still does the job though, and at instant speed.

[Vacrix]

4 Erratic Explosion
Seriously... why hasn't someone put this into a deck with SnT and Emrakul. Its like Draco Explosion all over again except you can actually win with Draco (now Emrakul). Love this card.

[joven]

Seriously... why hasn't someone put this into a deck with SnT and Emrakul. Its like Draco Explosion all over again except you can actually win with Draco (now Emrakul). Love this card.

Erratic Explosion with Emrakul in deck seems pretty random unless you manipulate your library first.

[Vacrix]

Thats the idea. Thats the entire idea behind Draco Explosion. You find Draco, put it ontop, likely with Lim-Dul's Vault, and then kill them with Flame Rift and Erratic Explosion. Hilarious, but it worked. I wouldn't say it was ever a particularly competitive deck but with Emrakul and SnT you have an option that is 2 mana cheaper than Sneak Attack. You could run burn as reach spells and potentially as removal to slow down really aggressive aggro decks.

[Oiolosse]

Damn, had they had the fucking balls to cost the Mad Prophet at 1R, analogous to Looter, we'd have another fun card in red.

EDIT:


Thats the idea. Thats the entire idea behind Draco Explosion. You find Draco, put it ontop, likely with Lim-Dul's Vault, and then kill them with Flame Rift and Erratic Explosion. Hilarious, but it worked. I wouldn't say it was ever a particularly competitive deck but with Emrakul and SnT you have an option that is 2 mana cheaper than Sneak Attack. You could run burn as reach spells and potentially as removal to slow down really aggressive aggro decks.


Thanks, sounds fun to brew.

[luckme10]

Look, I'm pretty shell shocked from this set. But what do you guys think will be the implications of this card?


http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1040/cavernofsoulsavacynrest.jpg

Between this and Terminus, it's not very often we get the unstoppable force and the immovable object in one set. Do you think some human/maverick deck can capitalize on such a thing? What about classic tribes like merfolk and goblins?

[DragoFireheart]

Between those two cards, the new meta will be:

U/W Miracle
Goblins
Dredge
Storm
Sneak Attack

[lordofthepit]

Look, I'm pretty shell shocked from this set. But what do you guys think will be the implications of this card?


http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1040/cavernofsoulsavacynrest.jpg

Between this and Terminus, it's not very often we get the unstoppable force and the immovable object in one set. Do you think some human/maverick deck can capitalize on such a thing? What about classic tribes like merfolk and goblins?

Terminus will help control decks more than Cavern of Souls helps aggro decks. The decks that benefit most strongly from Cavern of Souls are those that saw minimal play to begin with (e.g. Slivers), although Goblins is a Tier 2/3 deck that might get stronger.

Edit: I should clarify that I don't think creature-based decks like Maverick, Merfolk, and Elves don't benefit much from Cavern at all.

Also, Terminus isn't super exciting as a Miracle card. In most cases, when you need a sweeper effect, you don't care if it costs 4 mana vs. 1 mana, but 6 mana might be too much, so I'd prefer to have Wrath of God as the more consistent effect. Still, Terminus is pretty decent.

[(nameless one)]

Is Cavern of Souls really going to propel Goblins to DtB again?

Think about it, Goblins didn't get pushed down because of permission, it got pushed down because of power creep in creatures.

Tarmogoyf was the start. Now we have a plethora of creatures that even outclasses Tarmogoyf. Not to mention Batterskull.

I mean with that logic, shouldn't Goblins ripping the current meta a new hole that blue sees minimal play and Storm combo is at all time low?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Is Cavern of Souls really going to propel Goblins to DtB again?

Think about it, Goblins didn't get pushed down because of permission, it got pushed down because of power creep in creatures.

Tarmogoyf was the start. Now we have a plethora of creatures that even outclasses Tarmogoyf. Not to mention Batterskull.

I mean with that logic, shouldn't Goblins ripping the current meta a new hole that blue sees minimal play and Storm combo is at all time low?

I don't see Goblins being top tier, but at the same time every blue deck now has 4 less answers for turn 1 Lackey or turn 4 Ringleader, so I wouldn't be completely shocked if Goblins went up to at least tier 1.5.

[Vacrix]

Cavern seems really good with Piledriver and Matron in particular. Perhaps we'll see goblin list with more Piledrivers? Especially with UR Delver getting Vexing Devil, I'd expect it to be heavily played.

[matunos]

Cavern seems really good with Piledriver and Matron in particular. Perhaps we'll see goblin list with more Piledrivers? Especially with UR Delver getting Vexing Devil, I'd expect it to be heavily played.

I don't see Vexing Devil getting into U/R Delver, FWIW. Or, if it does, I don't see it being that fantastic.

[Vacrix]

I see it being a staple. Its often going to be 4 to the dome because you have countermagic to protect it from removal. Why wouldn't they play it? UR Delver is a burn deck that plays blue for a countersuite; its not really a control deck.

[dahcmai]

Seriously... why hasn't someone put this into a deck with SnT and Emrakul. Its like Draco Explosion all over again except you can actually win with Draco (now Emrakul). Love this card.


I did. There's a list in the old Aeon Bridge thread. It was an interesting deck, but I abandoned it after running into a few odd problems with it. It was a little slower than you would think and got ate up by combo.

[Que]

~Outwit U
Instant Uncommon
Counter target spell that targets a player.

Would that see play? sb etc

Its another form of Dispel and Spell Pierce. Its undercosted so thats always good. meh idk.

[Aggro_zombies]

Would that see play? sb etc

Its another form of Dispel and Spell Pierce. Its undercosted so thats always good. meh idk.
Not over Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm.

[matunos]

I see it being a staple. Its often going to be 4 to the dome because you have countermagic to protect it from removal. Why wouldn't they play it? UR Delver is a burn deck that plays blue for a countersuite; its not really a control deck.

Let me say first that I don't think the card is bad per se. The problem, as many other have said on here already, is that it's four to the head when you want an early beater and its a creature that can be blocked/removed when you want 4 to head to finish your opponent off.

My feeling is not that that's so terrible that you wouldn't want to play it in a vacuum... the question is: is it better than what a given deck would have to take out? It may be better than Figure of Destiny in a burn deck, but I'm not sure what else.

[xfxf]

Ilvenwald Tracker (http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/ulvenwald-tracker/) A good card to break ground stalls, a new GSZ target maybe?

[Peter_Rotten]

Ilvenwald Tracker (http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/ulvenwald-tracker/) A good card to break ground stalls, a new GSZ target maybe?

Excellent card. Now you can end Goyf-offs.

[Aggro_zombies]

Excellent card. Now you can end Goyf-offs.
Seems unlikely. He requires a strong board position to be good. A weak board position means you have fewer things with which to fight, and if you lose a guy in the exchange it hurts you much more than it hurts your opponent since you are probably still behind. Pretty much anything will be good when you're ahead, including Mother of Runes (unblockability), Silhana Ledgewalker (equipment carrier), Terravore (fat, trampling beats), a proper removal spell (removal), and so on.

This guy does not seem particularly damaging unless you have a huge Knight and your opponent is down to one creature.

[joemauer]

Excellent card. Now you can end Goyf-offs.

No no no. You misunderstand the card peter rotten.

You are supposed to use this new arena elf in conduction with something big, let's say knight of reliquary. Then, you can take out something small making a knight fight something like your opponents pridemage. With the pridemage gone, now knight can swing in for the kill! Stalemate solved!

[Vacrix]

Is anyone else thinking that Predict is going to be really good once all these Miracles see play? I just realized the other day that its also excellent with Goblin Guide. You can reveal their top card every time you attack. If its not a land, you can Predict away cards you don't want to see AND draw 2 cards for 1U.

[Aggro_zombies]

Is anyone else thinking that Predict is going to be really good once all these Miracles see play? I just realized the other day that its also excellent with Goblin Guide. You can reveal their top card every time you attack. If its not a land, you can Predict away cards you don't want to see AND draw 2 cards for 1U.
Or you could just Thought Scour them for less mana and Spell Snare immunity.

[matunos]

The problem is only one deck plays Thought Scour (sometimes): Canadian Thresh (aka RUG Delver). If you're putting Thought Scour into another deck just to counteract miracles, then you're doing it wrong. (And Canadian Thresh doesn't play Goblin Guide, burn and sometimes U/R Ddo.)

And what's the best you can hope from it? I Brainstorm, you Thought Scour and nab a miracle, and another card I didn't want. Okay, you kept me from getting a miracle, and now you can't Thought Scour yourself after your Ponder/Brainstorm. The cosmic ballet goes on. Either way, I got the miracle out of my hand, hopefully in exchange for a relevant card. Or maybe I have another Brainstorm and I bluffed you. Are you gonna Thought Scour each of my Brainstorms?

I don't know about Thresh, but I think a burn deck would rather just run some of the miracles (*cough* Thunderous Wrath *cough*) itself.

If miracles become so powerful that every deck has to start playing hate specifically against them, then they'll be banned. See Mental Misstep. I don't think they are that format warping, but only time will tell.

[Vacrix]

I think that Predict is much better than Thoughtscour. The point is to draw 2 cards for 1U. I don't think that Spell Snare is a good enough reason to run Thoughtscour instead. Its rather underwhelming. If I recall, Predict was good enough to see some play as a Standstill replacement.

I'd think that in counterburn like UR Delver, 1U Draw 2 would be sick. You can combo with Ponders, Goblin Guide (against opponent), and Brainstorm. If they Spell Snare this, than they aren't going to have a Snare for PoP.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I think that Predict is much better than Thoughtscour. The point is to draw 2 cards for 1U. I don't think that Spell Snare is a good enough reason to run Thoughtscour instead. Its rather underwhelming. If I recall, Predict was good enough to see some play as a Standstill replacement.

I'd think that in counterburn like UR Delver, 1U Draw 2 would be sick. You can combo with Ponders, Goblin Guide (against opponent), and Brainstorm. If they Spell Snare this, than they aren't going to have a Snare for PoP.

Last time Predict was any good I got killed by a Werebear. The only way I see it being worth it is if Miracles + Personal Tutor are heavily played and I wouldn't hold my breath for that.

[wcm8]

Last time Predict was any good I got killed by a Werebear. The only way I see it being worth it is if Miracles + Personal Tutor are heavily played and I wouldn't hold my breath for that.

Predict is decent as a one or two-of in RUG. It functions similarly to Thought Scour by accelerating the deck to threshold or screwing up an opponent's topdeck, but it also provides a real source of card advantage. RUG has one or two slots that it can use for Thought Scour, Predict, Sylvan Library, Life from the Loam, or additional removal/counterspells. The card is definitely niche, but I wouldn't say it's terrible either.

[lolosoon]

I'd think that in counterburn like UR Delver, 1U Draw 2 would be sick. You can combo with Ponders, Goblin Guide (against opponent), and Brainstorm.
You forgot the cornerstone of the deck : Delver itself.
The thing is, with Delver, you have to do it during your turn, cutting you of 2 useful mana.

Still, Predict has 14-16 enablers in UR Delver. That, and the cards revealed from opponent's Delvers, it a mere guaranteed draw2 for U1. huh ?

Seems good, but if it really is, why nobody plays it in the current winning lists (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2012-04-22&end_date=2012-04-22&event_ID=20&city=Birmingham) ?!

There is simply no rooms for it in those stock lists.

With Vexing Demon and a more burn-focused list, why not ? But drawing a Thunderous Wrath from Predict is like to shoot yourself in the foot.