Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SIMMERING POT OF FECAL MATTER]

[SpikeyMikey]

And the first card has been spoiled, Avacyn herself.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129642&stc=1&d=1333415410

Seems like a card that will have little if any impact in Legacy. Reanimator already has better targets and she's still vulnerable to StP.

[GGoober]

Dies to StP, destroys aggro though if you don't have a exile effect.

[Aggro_zombies]

Oh man, I can't wait to have someone build the Avacyn + every Armageddon + Nev's Disk EDH deck and then bitch at me when I kill them with an infinite combo.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Sphinx also dies to StP and gets played. It's definitely a potential reanimator target, as non-white decks can't deal with it very effectively. Might not make the cut though.

Kind of boring design, though.

[The Big Ragu]

I really like the card, even though I don't plan on putting it in any of my decks. I already asked you guys how it would do in Reanimator, and I guess you were right in saying there are better reanimation targets.

Seems like a very strong casual(ish) general to me. And it will definitely be an auto include in all Kaalia decks.

[SpikeyMikey]

Sphinx also dies to StP and gets played. It's definitely a potential reanimator target, as non-white decks can't deal with it very effectively. Might not make the cut though.

Kind of boring design, though.

It's a potential, every fatty is a potential. But it's worse than a lot of other options. Sphinx is a great anti-aggro card. This? Not so much. The only decks where Reanimator is really worried about non-plow, non-edict type removal would be the midrange black decks that may run Vindicate or GftT/Doom Blade. Once you've got a reanimated fatty on the board, you're not concerned about people blowing up your lands and the only permanents you play are lands and fatties. It's definitely not going to replace Jin as your first target and I can't think of a situation where this could be better than the current suite of Timmy cards.

[Koby]

ZOMG ANGEL! INDESTRUCTIBLE! *jizz in pants*

Looks like a boring card tailored exactly for the EDHorde.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Kind of boring design, though.

I'm happy with this. I've had enough with the ludicrous power creep in fatties. Progenitus was bad enough, but then they printed Iona, Emrakul, Blightsteel, and Jin Whatshisname. It's annoying to have such stupid fat exist that can be dumped out turn 1-2 in decks that can pack Daze/Force to counter your removal. Balanced? Yeah. But not very fun. Phage and Hypnox came with clauses against reanimation for a reason.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

No, I mean it's just boringly designed. It's a big dumb fatty. With flying. And a minor self-protection ability. For something the set is named after it's pretty plain and uninspired.

[Aggro_zombies]

ZOMG ANGEL! INDESTRUCTIBLE! *jizz in pants*

Looks like a boring card tailored exactly for the EDHorde.
This card is a trap in EDH, though. If you build a deck around it, one of two things will happen: either (a) things will go as expected and the experience will be miserable for basically everyone but you, or (b) everyone else will realize you are the All-Wraths-And-Armageddons deck and prioritize killing you, which is probably not a very good experience for you. There's very little incentive to just play her fairly as a big dumb beatstick in the format.

Also, I take it you don't play EDH?

[morgan_coke]

How many "destroy" effects are there in Legacy anyways? Wasteland? Burn spells? Combat Damage? The bonus just doesn't seem very good in any deck that would actually use this. Still, way better than another stupid Emrakul/Progenitus piece of "i win" garbage.

[Koby]

Also, I take it you don't play EDH?

Correct, I don't play formats that have house rule against LD.

[Aggro_zombies]

Correct, I don't play formats that have house rule against LD.
Eh, there isn't such a thing around here, but I get your point.

[The Big Ragu]

House rules against land destruction in EDH are pretty weak. I get why they exist, but I still say they're weak sauce.

[Aggro_zombies]

House rules against land destruction in EDH are pretty weak. I get why they exist, but I still say they're weak sauce.
Targeted LD is fine. Mass LD is bearable if you have a fast clock. But if you're running mass LD with the intention of grinding people out, then fuck off: at least the combo player has the decency to make the games end quickly.

EDIT: I meant that "you" generally, not you specifically.

[bruizar]

I wouldn't brush of Avacyn so easily. It's a very big fatty with protection (although not against the most common spot removal spell) vigilance and evasion. Batterskull shows how strong vigilance is. It's perfect for racing your opponent. I could see Avacyn as a Loyal Retainers target over Elesh Norn in some maverick build utilizing that package, and perhaps in reanimator. I don't think it will go in dredge but who knows.

[Nihil Credo]

I see little practical difference between an explicit "no mass LD" rule and an implicit "let's not everyone bring a mono-U or U/B combo deck, k?" agreement.

And they both make sense to me, since EDH is pretty much pointless and dumb as a competitive format.

(this is a blatant derail, but it's not like there's much to say about Avacyn the card)

e:

I wouldn't brush of Avacyn so easily. It's a very big fatty with protection (although not against the most common spot removal spell) vigilance and evasion. Batterskull shows how strong vigilance is. It's perfect for racing your opponent. I could see Avacyn as a Loyal Retainers target over Elesh Norn in some maverick build utilizing that package, and perhaps in reanimator. I don't think it will go in dredge but who knows. Just use white Akroma if that's what you need. It's not quite as reliable in combat, but between haste and trample it's going to usually kill a turn faster which is considerably more important when you're trying to win with a non-shroud non-Iona creature. Avacyn is only really better at blocking Knight of the Reliquary (Tarmogoyf isn't that likely to get to 6/7 in this match), in which case you're certainly facing StP and probably Mother of Runes as well.

[Barook]

Batterskull shows how strong vigilance is. It's perfect for racing your opponent.
Batterskull has also lifelink which makes a huge difference in terms of racing.

She isn't a bad card, but I can't see her finding a place in Legacy, mainly because exile effects are among the common removal.

[lyracian]

No, I mean it's just boringly designed. It's a big dumb fatty. With flying. And a minor self-protection ability. For something the set is named after it's pretty plain and uninspired.I actually like her. As a card for Legacy it is mostly worthless but as a big leader who is going to protect all those little G/W Humans it is a nice ability.

You might be able to make a standard ramp deck to user her but I expect she will mostly see play in multi-player games like Emporer, Star Magic or some EDH.

[Sims]

No, I mean it's just boringly designed. It's a big dumb fatty. With flying. And a minor self-protection ability. For something the set is named after it's pretty plain and uninspired.

I expected her to be big, have flying, and have some form of protection or being indestructible due to the only way the demons of the plane could get rid of her was trapping her in the Helvault (i.e, exiled.) But I do agree that I was hoping for something a bit flashier to be the representative card of this set.

That said, she'll land a spot in my Aggro-Kaalia deck. Dropping a turn 2-3 Kaalia and turn 3-4 Geddon is good. Doing it after dropping Avacyn is even better.

It will cause some people to try for the "lock" similar to Disk + Forge + Lattice that Arcum players usually lock people out with, but I doubt that will be very successful as a strategy.

As far as house rules against LD- Casual playgroups don't particularly care for LD because it's deemed as un-fun as someone winning turn 2 in a multiplayer game. They don't want to play competitively and that's fine. But most of the playgroups I play with have realized 2 things- Green land ramp is powerful in an almost unbalanced way if LD isn't allowed in a group and becomes the go to deck type (ramp into whatever win you want), and that aggro decks cannot compete unless they have some form of disruption which usually involves mass LD and mass Hand-D. Both of those things, while not fun, are necessary to keep an "advanced" playgroup balanced.

[Nihil Credo]

I'll give Avacyn one thing: after almost ten years, it gives Worldslayer a purpose.

[TsumiBand]

Ultimately not that big a deal in Legacy. There's way more betterer things to Reanimate; any format which skirts destroy effects in favor of exile effects will just laff.

EDH is another story, it'll be just silly to poop this thing out with Kaalia and then blow up the planet. House rules aside, there's nothing implicit about "no LD", there's plenty of EDH decks that genuinely go broken in the first few turns, and honestly in my experience Kaalia.dec could use a hand when it comes to the resilience factor. There's a handful of big dumb Angels that already give target permanent indestructible, so for there to be one big blanket indestructible effect will add another layer of protection to that frail little 2/2 Kaalia, which I can dig.

[Malchar]

Lets hope that the big bad demon in this set has protection from white, which might actually make it playable.

[DragoFireheart]

Lets hope that the big bad demon in this set has protection from white, which might actually make it playable.

It will probably be a generic demon with some shitty drawback.

[jjjoness']

It will probably be a generic demon with some shitty drawback.

Expect something bigger with an even shittier drawback.

I really hate the design of Avacyn. In EDH its an extremely boring card, not really good but annyoing as fuck. Thus anyone playing it will be hated out and rightly so.

[DragoFireheart]

Expect something bigger with an even shittier drawback.


Generic Demon # 23
7BBBBBBB
Creature - Demon

Flying

During your Upkeep, burn your hand and throw your cards into the trash. Otherwise, * kicks you in the balls.

6/6

[Barook]

Generic Demon # 23
7BBBBBBB
Creature - Demon

Flying

During your Upkeep, burn your hand and throw your cards into the trash. Otherwise, * kicks you in the balls.

6/6
Sad, but true.

I wish there were more cheap, playable demons or at least some with a more manageable alternative costs like Tombstalker.

I'm also kinda puzzled that we haven't seen a single Demon Knight yet, which has so much potential to be awesome. Instead, we got several zombie knights.

[jjjoness']

Generic Demon # 23
7BBBBBBB
Creature - Demon

Flying

During your Upkeep, burn your hand and throw your cards into the trash. Otherwise, * kicks you in the balls.

6/6

Nah, it needs to be big. Like 13/13 or something. Impressive. Don't forget some impressively shitty ability. Like "whenever a player rants about how ridiculously bad ~'s design is put a creature token onto the battlefield that's a copy of ~. Slap that player in the face. Twice.

On a more serious note: I hope we get some cool cards in this set, that are not fatties.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm also kinda puzzled that we haven't seen a single Demon Knight yet, which has so much potential to be awesome. Instead, we got several zombie knights.

Demon Knights would make some of the kids go crazy over the "awesomeness" factor. A knight that is a demon. And is emo. And sparkles. And likes high school girls. And is part vampire.

[ESG]

Blah art. Looks like Taylor Momsen.

[rxavage]

Demon Knights would make some of the kids go crazy over the "awesomeness" factor. A knight that is a demon. And is emo. And sparkles. And likes high school girls. And is part vampire.

Sounds like the entire band KISS.

[DragoFireheart]

Blah art. Looks like Taylor Momsen.

The art is about as bland and uninspiring as you can get.

Oh look... another angel...

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/002326839/3948922623_1625756053_bored_xlarge_answer_2_xlarge.jpeg

[Elminister]

I'm still hoping for Scavenging Ooze in this set.

[DarthVicious]

Demon Knights would make some of the kids go crazy over the "awesomeness" factor. A knight that is a demon. And is emo. And sparkles. And likes high school girls. And is part vampire.

ROFLMFAO

REAL vampires don't F'n sparkle.

On that note, I would love to see a Demon Knight. Naturally.

[Tao]

What an insane amount of hating, flaming and whining in this thread over nothing really. I think it is a pretty cool card.

[eq.firemind]

I am pretty glad that Avacyn is monowhite pure holy angelic protector of innocent small people. It feels like returning home after a long trip filled with Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Chancellor of the Annex, Iona, Shield of Emeria and other not-so-white monstrosities. And Wizards could've spoil it all with :b::w: emo goth angel-demon shit, but they didn't.

[Rizso]

Guess they couldnt make the angel be a zealotry fascist extemist like Elesh Norn is. Thought I wonder if avacyn will persecute the vampires, werewolves and zombies now that she is free from the helvault.

[thefringthing]

You know how Maro sometimes mentions that not every card is designed for every player? We're Legacy players. We're looking for cheap, powerful effects (Brainstorm, Mongoose, etc.) and game-changers (Emrakul, Ad Nauseam, etc.). Obviously Avacyn is neither of these. She's intended to excited kitchen table players, and she's doing a good job of that. Let's just wait patiently for some cards that *are* for us. And remember that each set can only support a few Eternal-viable cards without upsetting Wizards' more popular and lucrative formats.

[Grollub]

I am pretty glad that Avacyn is monowhite pure holy angelic protector of innocent small people. It feels like returning home after a long trip filled with Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Chancellor of the Annex, Iona, Shield of Emeria and other not-so-white monstrosities. And Wizards could've spoil it all with :b::w: emo goth angel-demon shit, but they didn't.

Yeah, my thoughts too. I think she got great flavor and brilliant artwork. Ironically enough she'll probably only see play in decks (even in casual) that can cheat her out, which would mean black aka the color she was made by Sorin to defend humanity against. :-S

[TsumiBand]

I am pretty glad that Avacyn is monowhite pure holy angelic protector of innocent small people. It feels like returning home after a long trip filled with Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Chancellor of the Annex, Iona, Shield of Emeria and other not-so-white monstrosities. And Wizards could've spoil it all with :b::w: emo goth angel-demon shit, but they didn't.

Aside from Elesh Norn's -2/-2 being somewhat questionable (though fitting of the block it was printed in), I'm not sure what's 'not-so-white' about those dudes. If anything most white creatures get the short end of the stick by trying to just be combat-relevant; the ever-present 2/2 for WW with some ability are by and large just shitty copies of each other than are marginally useful as metagame cards at best. If anything there should be MORE dudes like Iona or Chancellor, just on a smaller scale. Like, you know, Thalia :/

At any rate, I like Avacyn in EDH as a Kaalia toy, but I don't see much else coming of it. +1 for Tao for correctly pointing out a disproportionate amount of nerd-rage for one spoiled card; looks like the set's ruined guys!

[Rizso]

Elesh Norn is however a very white card, she is a spiritual leader, however she is kinda of a extemist as well fascist / rasist against fleshlings. Wanting to turn everything into phyrexians. She isnt the first white colored badguy in the game so far. Dont know if its a she thought :P

[(nameless one)]

Elesh Norn is however a very white card, she is a spiritual leader, however she is kinda of a extemist as well fascist / rasist against fleshlings. Wanting to turn everything into phyrexians. She isnt the first white colored badguy in the game so far. Dont know if its a she thought :P

Of course Lady Gaga is a she.

[Rizso]

Or is she!? :P

[Gheizen64]

New cards:

Dumb Demon 2BB

Flying, Undying
As this enter into play, sac another creature or Exile it.
5/4


Silverblade Paladin - 1WW
2/2, Soulbond (You may pair this creature with another unpaired creature when either enters the battlefield. They remain paired as long as you control both of them). As long as Silverblade Paladin is paired with another creature, both creatures have double strike.

Restoration Angel - 3W,
Flash, Flying, 3/4, When Restoration Angel enters the battlefield, you may exile target non-angel creature you control then return that creature to the battlefield under your control.

(a new tool for D&T? Too expensive probably. Still, 3/4 Flying and flash for 3W is nice already).

EDIT:

Thunderous Wrath - 4RR, Instant, Thunderous Wrath deals 5 damage to target creature or player. Miracle R (You may cast this card for its Miracle cost when you draw it if it's the first card you drew this turn)

Lol wtf is this mechanic so retarded. Make library manipulation even stronger? ZZZz

And SIX mana cost? This card is unplayable outside of the topdeck mode. What a shitty design dear god.

Missed this:

Sigarda, Host of Herons - 2GWW - Flying, Hexproof, 5/5, spells and abilities your opponents control can't cause you to sacrifice permanents

This is actually decent. Hexproof and Flying are basically the best abilities in legacy right now.

EDIT2: it seems that the Demon doesn't have the "sacrifice another creature" text but the "sacrifice a creature" . If this is confirmed, card is basically a 6/5 flier for 2BB.

[Rizso]

Miracle cards with top is kinda crazy. Seting them up with brainstorm and Jace.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

It'll be a real miracle if that mechanic doesn't crank out some insanely broken interactions.

Also I hate that hexproof is being pushed more. What a terrible, un-interactive ability. And a 3/4 Flying, Flash angel with a good ability? Power creep much?

On the good side...Banding in a new form....AUGHHH YEAHHHHHHHH!

[lordofthepit]

EDIT2: it seems that the Demon doesn't have the "sacrifice another creature" text but the "sacrifice a creature" . If this is confirmed, card is basically a 6/5 flier for 2BB.

That's pretty broken (in non-Eternal formats).

[Aggro_zombies]

That's pretty broken (in non-Eternal formats).
No, it's a 6/5 flier that requires you to sacrifice a creature for 2BB. It re-enters the battlefield when it undies, causing it to trigger again.

Card is worse than Tombstalker in every format where both are legal.

EDIT: Also, ugh @ that legendary angel. Seriously? So the only ways to get rid of it are sweepers and -1/-1 counters? What's with Wizards printing all of these non-interactive cards lately?

EDIT 2: Miracle seems very cheat-friendly. I'm surprised it's not worded like this:

Miracle [cost] (If you would draw this card, and it's the first card you've drawn this turn, instead reveal it and cast it for its Miracle cost).

[Gheizen64]

No, it's a 6/5 flier that requires you to sacrifice a creature for 2BB. It re-enters the battlefield when it undies, causing it to trigger again.

Card is worse than Tombstalker in every format where both are legal.

EDIT: Also, ugh @ that legendary angel. Seriously? So the only ways to get rid of it are sweepers and -1/-1 counters? What's with Wizards printing all of these non-interactive cards lately?

Uuh missed that. Card just sucks. Seems that's a typo, else it wouldn't have the "exile it" clause.

[lordofthepit]

No, it's a 6/5 flier that requires you to sacrifice a creature for 2BB. It re-enters the battlefield when it undies, causing it to trigger again.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[Aggro_zombies]

Oh man, I hope there aren't any Legacy-playable Miracle cards.

Imagine:

It's your turn. You pass and your opponent casts EoT Brainstorm. Unbeknownst to you, he draws card, Miracle card, card. He puts them into his hand, shuffles his hand a couple of times, then puts two cards back. He now has priority to cast his Miracle card, which was not the first card he drew this turn, but how do you know? Nice cost-reducing mechanic.

In order to combat that, every Brainstorm (or other instant-speed card draw effect) that would draw your opponent his first card of the turn would need to be played out as follows to prevent cheating:

Draw a card, but place it face-down on the table in front of you.
Draw the rest of the cards. Do whatever with them.
Finish resolving your card drawing spell.
Only the face-down card can be cast for its Miracle cost.

What a pain in the ass.

[TsumiBand]

Ew, UB Delver Sligh is probably ridiculous with that card. Talk more shit about Magma Jet now. :/ While MJ alone will not make this card any good for monored Burn/Sligh strategies - since having it in your opening 7 is fucking stupid - anything that can stack its deck in a meaningful way will have a gay ol' time with the topdeckingest mechanic ever. Also be ready for the onslaught of ICP jokes re: miracles, how do they work, etc :/

Soulbond is cool but is probably worse than just playing a Lord, unless the pairings result in completely bonkers men. The example provided probably isn't that big a deal, even though doublestrike + equips is the goodest shit evar.

Demon of Assmouth seems like some good with all those retarded Black creatures that won't stay dead.

That angel will piss people right off in limited. Unbelievable, a 3/4 with flying and flash for 4, and a 'may' ability that can save guys from removal? I'm gonna call it borderline Constructed worthy; 4/4s for 4 with an ability are worth a look (Chameleon Colossus, Thrun) and one that trades +1 power for instant speed and flying, and can counter target removal spell? Definitely worth watching to see if it matters a damn.

[JDK]

And SIX mana cost? This card is unplayable outside of the topdeck mode. What a shitty design dear god.

UR Delver and Brainstorm say hello. ;)

[Gheizen64]

Oh man, I hope there aren't any Legacy-playable Miracle cards.

Imagine:

It's your turn. You pass and your opponent casts EoT Brainstorm. Unbeknownst to you, he draws card, Miracle card, card. He puts them into his hand, shuffles his hand a couple of times, then puts two cards back. He now has priority to cast his Miracle card, which was not the first card he drew this turn, but how do you know? Nice cost-reducing mechanic.

In order to combat that, every Brainstorm (or other instant-speed card draw effect) that would draw your opponent his first card of the turn would need to be played out as follows to prevent cheating:

Draw a card, but place it face-down on the table in front of you.
Draw the rest of the cards. Do whatever with them.
Finish resolving your card drawing spell.
Only the face-down card can be cast for its Miracle cost.

What a pain in the ass.

Off turn card-drawing spells need you to play in a way that reveal to your opponent that you're playing miracle cards in your decks and you can't bluff drawing 3 altogether because it would make you unable to cast the miracle.

What a shitty mechanic design. There were 1 billions better way to make this with the same flavor, like Hellbent or Fateful Hour mana cost reductions.
Or even more simply: as you draw this, you may reveal it. If you do, you mast cast it for X less.


UR Delver and Brainstorm say hello. ;)

With "topdeck mode" i meant the Miracle cost. I know the card is good with manipulation spells. What i meant is that the difference between the two cost make the card unplayable outside of the alternate cost. Force at 5 see scarce play with the main mana cost, and that's an hard counter that see play in control decks that strive to live until later. This is a burn spell that should be played in decks that will never ever hit 6 lands, and have to be played in a blue shell. A way more fair spell would this have been at 4 damage and a 1RR main cost or something.

Imagine the implications a really good miracle card would have on the format. I will lol if they print a U miracle ancestral with no main mana cost (sorta like ancestral vision).

[Nihil Credo]

In order to combat that, every Brainstorm (or other instant-speed card draw effect) that would draw your opponent his first card of the turn would need to be played out as follows to prevent cheating:

Draw a card, but place it face-down on the table in front of you.
Draw the rest of the cards. Do whatever with them.
Finish resolving your card drawing spell.
Only the face-down card can be cast for its Miracle cost.

What a pain in the ass.
No, I'm betting that you only need to play it this way if the first card you see is a Miracle card. You will still be able to play Brainstorm 'normal' style, but by doing so you forfeit the ability to play any Miracle cards drawn.

So, if you have Miracle cards in your deck Brainstorm becomes:

- Look at the top card of your library. Is it a miracle card?
- No, or Yes but I don't want to play it right now -> Brainstorm as usual;
- Yes and I want to play it -> slam it on the table, proceed to draw two and put back two, bin the Brainstorm and play the Miracle spell.

If you don't have Miracle spells in the deck, nothing changes. Even if you want to bluff having them, all you need to do is to put a half-second delay between seeing the first card of your Brainstorm and putting it in your hand.

My first reaction upon seeing this mechanic was "there's no way this won't cause a complete mess with the rules and with tournament play", but the more I think about it the more it seems to me that it ought to work just fine.

I do agree though that a single too-powerful Miracle spell might end up being the straw that moves Top from "man, remember the days when we thought it needed to be banned?" to "OH GOD BAN THIS FUCKER NOW"

[randomly.anonymous]

Definitely feel like this new "miracle" mechanic will push brainstorm over the top.
Getting in 5 damage for R, even if its during your draw step, seems way too good.

[wcm8]

The Mirage era tutors + Noxious Revival would be additional ways to abuse Miracle cards. We obviously don't know yet if any of these will be truly worthwhile, but it's a mechanic thats pretty easy to break in Legacy.

[Aggro_zombies]

Definitely feel like this new "miracle" mechanic will push brainstorm over the top.
Getting in 5 damage for R, even if its during your draw step, seems way too good.
The problem is when you don't Brainstorm this into 5 damage for R. Then it's 5 damage for 4RR, which is terrible.

Even when you use Brainstorm to make it good, you still need another card to enable your miracle card. Generally, cards that are only playable - never mind actually good - if they have an enabler have not been good enough for Legacy. Because of this, I think any playable Miracle cards are going to need to have both the Miracle and non-Miracle sides be castable in Legacy.

However, then you run into a different problem. If the card is relatively cheap to cast already, the miracle cost becomes less attractive because you're not saving that much. Imagine a 1/1 for 1 with affinity for artifacts: yes, you can cast it for free, but it's not that interesting to most players because the difference between 1 and 0 is not that great. That's not to say that Wizards won't push a card like this for constructed (where top players tend to care more about incremental advantages, even when those are small), but there probably won't be that many of those cards.

[randomly.anonymous]

The problem is when you don't Brainstorm this into 5 damage for R. Then it's 5 damage for 4RR, which is terrible.

Even when you use Brainstorm to make it good, you still need another card to enable your miracle card. Generally, cards that are only playable - never mind actually good - if they have an enabler have not been good enough for Legacy. Because of this, I think any playable Miracle cards are going to need to have both the Miracle and non-Miracle sides be castable in Legacy.

By no means is it a 4-of. It feels like cards like this increase the value of brainstorm even more.
Also, what do you mean "you need another card to enable [it]"?
I thought you could (for example), brainstorm EOT, put the miracle card just sitting uselessly in your hand back on top of your library along with another card beneath it. During your own draw phase, you draw it, and cast it for its miracle card, since its the first card you drew that turn.

EDIT:
Phyrexian Dreadought requires an enabler. Granted, dealing 5 damage isn't comparable to dropping a 12/12 trample. But at the same time, those 5 damages isn't going to be as "all-in" as the dreadought plan. You still get to brainstorm more or less normally (probably won't be able to shuffle), and you lose no card advantage.

[Tombstalker]

Im torn between screaming YES and hoping this isnt what finally gets brainstorm banned.

[Aggro_zombies]

Im torn between screaming YES and hoping this isnt what finally gets brainstorm banned.
Wait until you see what happens when you get to Top into a miracle every turn!

[Greenpoe]

LaPille leaves but Wizards is still giving us total garbage? First the flip mechanic and now this "miracle" mechanic? Are they are just trying to make mechanics to frustrate players? Flip and miracle sound like Unhinged mechanics which are awkward and so reminiscent of Booster Tutor. The 2BB Dumb Demon infringes on Abyssal Persecutor's territory, which is an extremely boring card replacing a very unique one.

[Malchar]

So you can just have a bunch of miracle cards in hand and then brainstrom them back on top of your library.

[JDK]

With "topdeck mode" i meant the Miracle cost. I know the card is good with manipulation spells. What i meant is that the difference between the two cost make the card unplayable outside of the alternate cost. Force at 5 see scarce play with the main mana cost, and that's an hard counter that see play in control decks that strive to live until later. This is a burn spell that should be played in decks that will never ever hit 6 lands, and have to be played in a blue shell. A way more fair spell would this have been at 4 damage and a 1RR main cost or something.

You pretty much have to play Brainstorm or Top to get the best value out of miracle. I think it's fine that way, to keep a balance and not completely breaking the format.
Despite the high CMC of the spell it will still see play in some UR builds.

[randomly.anonymous]

You pretty much have to play Brainstorm or Top to get the best value out of miracle. I think it's fine that way, to keep a balance and not completely breaking the format.
Despite the high CMC of the spell it will still see play in some UR builds.

Unlikely opening for UR:
T1: Delver
T2: Blind Flip, Brainstorm, Delver
T3: Reveal Thunderous Wrath, 5 you, drop Goblin Guide, attack for 7, fireblast herpderp

[JDK]

I already see the "u mad?" spam. xD

[Aggro_zombies]

Unlikely opening for UR:
T1: Delver
T2: Blind Flip, Brainstorm, Delver
T3: Reveal Thunderous Wrath, 5 you, drop Goblin Guide, attack for 7, fireblast herpderp
Oh man, god hands. It really is rumor season, isn't it?

That said, comparing Thunderous Wrath to Fireblast is interesting. The cards overlap quite a bit in the sense that they are both finishers that you are basically only ever casting for their alternate costs. Thunderous Wrath doesn't force you to feed it lands, but it has severe timing restrictions that likely kill its playability.

[Barook]

Wow - miracle is a pants-on-head retarded mechanic.

And the Paladin seems interesting. While the lack of protection (like Mirran Crusader) sucks, it's basically a 4 power creature for 3 mana that also pumps another, undercosted fatty.

Swinging with a double-striking Goyf on turn 3? Sounds like a plan.

[randomly.anonymous]

Oh man, god hands. It really is rumor season, isn't it?

That said, comparing Thunderous Wrath to Fireblast is interesting. The cards overlap quite a bit in the sense that they are both finishers that you are basically only ever casting for their alternate costs. Thunderous Wrath doesn't force you to feed it lands, but it has severe timing restrictions that likely kill its playability.

Truesay. If you're gonna have the miser's Tunderous Wrath (or two), it may as well as be Fireblast.

My original concern was that the mechanic overall is too easily abused with the already widespread Brainstorm and also commonly played cards like Top and Ponder.

[Aggro_zombies]

Truesay. If you're gonna have the miser's Tunderous Wrath (or two), it may as well as be Fireblast.

My original concern was that the mechanic overall is too easily abused with the already widespread Brainstorm and also commonly played cards like Top and Ponder.
The problem is, again, if you don't have Top, Ponder, or Brainstorm, the cards are kind of shitty. Who wants to pay 4RR for a mere five damage?

Sure, you can set up getting them for their Miracle costs with Top and Ponder, but then you have to cast them on your draw steps (I guess you could activate Top to draw on the opponent's turn). And that level of limiting makes the cards most likely a lot worse than similar cards that are cheap all the time.

EDIT: Although I would assume any miracle cards pushed for Constructed will have cheap costs on both ends to mitigate that effect somewhat. Those are the cards most likely to make the jump into Legacy, too.

[menace13]

Sigarda seems good. 5/5 Flyer, Hexproof and prevents sacrifice effects. Maverick, Rock or Bant are the only decks capable of playing it though. It may not see any play, but It passes Jace/StP/Karakas/Liliana.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129805&d=1333846293

[Nihil Credo]

4 mana for a 5/5 flier is meh, 4 mana for a 5/5 trollshroud flier can be quite interesting. But precisely for that reason I think Maverik won't play more than a 1-of at best: it already has Mother of Runes to make its guys pseudo-untargetable, and those four mana could buy it something more interesting like some real fat. Although, being able to fetch a tough flier with GSZ seems a nice bonus, which makes the 1-of possibility more likely.

The ability is neat but still decidedly secondary, I think - blocking Innocent Blood and Liliana is kinda nice vs. Nic Fit and the occasional Pox, blocking Annihilator is pointless as it usually won't save you from Emrakul, any other realistic sac effects in the format? Tabernacle isn't affected, Smokestack is off the radar, Gatekeeper of Malakir doesn't really have a deck...

On a separate note, fall set is confirmed as Return to Ravnica. I think they might have wanted another year or so before doing another multicolour block, but with the new design philosophy (and after the lesson of Alara Reborn) I'm pretty confident that the multicolour theme won't be the entire schtick of the block like it was for Ravnica and Shards.

[Gheizen64]

4 mana for a 5/5 flier is meh, 4 mana for a 5/5 trollshroud flier can be quite interesting. But precisely for that reason I think Maverik won't play more than a 1-of at best: it already has Mother of Runes to make its guys pseudo-untargetable, and those four mana could buy it something more interesting like some real fat. Although, being able to fetch a tough flier with GSZ seems a nice bonus, which makes the 1-of possibility more likely.

The ability is neat but still decidedly secondary, I think - blocking Innocent Blood and Liliana is kinda nice vs. Nic Fit and the occasional Pox, blocking Annihilator is pointless as it usually won't save you from Emrakul, any other realistic sac effects in the format? Tabernacle isn't affected, Smokestack is off the radar, Gatekeeper of Malakir doesn't really have a deck...

On a separate note, fall set is confirmed as Return to Ravnica. I think they might have wanted another year or so before doing another multicolour block, but with the new design philosophy (and after the lesson of Alara Reborn) I'm pretty confident that the multicolour theme won't be the entire schtick of the block like it was for Ravnica and Shards.

It's 5 mana. Funny how baneslayer was hated for being the emblem of modern power creep just what, 2 years ago? This is leagues better (for legacy).

[GGoober]

Am I the only one who thinks the Demon is a really really really well-designed card for its 2BB mana cost? I feel it fits the flavor of black really well, and is extremely powerful in the right deck (not just referring to Legacy).

Seems like if you were playing some BW deck with Lingering Souls or Bitterblossom + Stoneforge, he seems to be a more solid Tombstalker that is harder to deal with.

But I guess I'm in love with the well-balanced design of the card with relationship of its drawback, power+flying + undying bonus

[Antonius]

Am I the only one who thinks the Demon is a really really really well-designed card for its 2BB mana cost? I feel it fits the flavor of black really well, and is extremely powerful in the right deck (not just referring to Legacy).


seems like a good fit for veteran explorer deck.

[joemauer]

It will probably be a generic demon with some shitty drawback.

This sums up the new demon.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The new heron chick is both more interesting to me than Avacyn, from a design persepctive, and more playable. Still almost certainly not good enough for Legacy, but seems fantastic in EDH and Standard, maybe Modern.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oh man Miracle seems like the most obnoxious new ability since... well since transform I guess.

[Rizso]

The problem with the demon is that swords to plowshares pretty much counters the whole undying. The demon is pretty strong with some tokens or something that trigger when it dies. But legacy got swords so doubt it will be anything in legacy. Standard however it looks more interesting with Gravecrawer, Geralfen messenger and Skirsdag High Priest.

[CorpT]

The problem with the demon is that swords to plowshares pretty much counters the whole undying. The demon is pretty strong with some tokens or something that trigger when it dies. But legacy got swords so doubt it will be anything in legacy. Standard however it looks more interesting with Gravecrawer, Geralfen messenger and Skirsdag High Priest.

Sam Black solved that issue with Carrion Feeder. I don't know that it makes the Demon playable, but Swords is a solvable issue.

[dahcmai]

Compare that new Demon to Abyssal Persecutor and it seems pretty crappy all of a sudden.


Miracle cards are going to be annoying.

As for their ruling for brainstorm and such, you probably just have to reveal it and put the trigger on the stack if you plan to cast it, no biggie. It seems you have to cast them when you draw them so it's not that confusing. The drawback is just it being crappy timing when you want to cast them all the time.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Miracle is annoying from not only a rules standpoint, but to any competitive player.

Oh look what I top decked!

[Antonius]

the reality of "miracle":

DAMN LOOK WHAT I RIPPED !! (cue fart noises)

[Bruticus]

It'll be a real miracle if that mechanic doesn't crank out some insanely broken interactions.

Also I hate that hexproof is being pushed more. What a terrible, un-interactive ability. And a 3/4 Flying, Flash angel with a good ability? Power creep much?

On the good side...Banding in a new form....AUGHHH YEAHHHHHHHH!

You can "interact" with Hexproof creatures just fine by having a creature on the board...

[Tammit67]

You can "interact" with Hexproof creatures just fine by having a creature on the board...

Oh look, removal based strategies are total shit! Now I just need to have the biggest creature!

[joemauer]

Oh look, removal based strategies are total shit! Now I just need to have the biggest creature!

Or kill them with delvers and some bolts before your opponent gets that guy out.

[KevinTrudeau]

Set looks absolutely atrocious six cards in, like, the worst post-1995 set I've ever seen actually. Four mana 3/4 flying flash with a really good CIP ability (obviously a Legacy unplayable, but from a Limited and Standard perspective)? Miracle at face value (there might be some other mechanics in Avacyn Restored that make Miracle not completely horrible, but I'm not holding my breath)?

[TsumiBand]

Set looks absolutely atrocious six cards in, like, the worst post-1995 set I've ever seen actually. Four mana 3/4 flying flash with a really good CIP ability (obviously a Legacy unplayable, but from a Limited and Standard perspective)? Miracle at face value (there might be some other mechanics in Avacyn Restored that make Miracle not completely horrible, but I'm not holding my breath)?

Actually, I'm betting that the Angel at least gets tried out in a deck that tries to do cute things like D&T. Something something, Vial in Leonin Relic-Warder/Fiend Hunter, stack its ability and then pay 3W for the Angel, resolve the critter's leaves-play ability, then put another ETB ability on the stack and grab something, then resolve the first ETB trigger. One permanent is exiled forever, another one is under his butt, and now you have a flyer to put equipment on. *\o/*

Really if it is in fact spoiled correctly, it says something like, "Replay target ETB ability. Put a 3/4 penis in target opponent's ear." Shit, I mean, recast SFM's ability? Flip a face-down guy in response to removal? Put Tidehollow Sculler's ability on the stack? Some of these are worth paying 3W for, especially if you're also making a dude. It's a little hefty on the casting cost but it seems super D&T-ish. It'd be a shame not to try it out.

[lavafrogg]

The cc is too high to be legacy playable. For 4 mana you should be winning the game and not doing a cute combat trick.

[Deviruchi]

Fingers crossed for not having even 1 more playable Miracle card. Don't like the mechanic at all. When I saw that card I thought about Dark Withering with different mechanic. Lame design?

[from Cairo]

Also, what do you mean "you need another card to enable [it]"?
I thought you could (for example), brainstorm EOT, put the miracle card just sitting uselessly in your hand back on top of your library along with another card beneath it. During your own draw phase, you draw it, and cast it for its miracle card, since its the first card you drew that turn.

You can. Brainstorm provides an attempt at the miracle with the initial blind first-draw on the opponent's turn, and it allows you to put any miracles in hand back to the top-card to trigger the following draw step. I think the miracle approach would probably promote Ponder's value to UR Delver - don't know if it's already universally run, but seems like you'd definitely want 4 in a miracle build.

[Occam]

With there being talk of one miracle card (non-blue, I hope/believe) that could be broken in legacy, anyone else believe these could have been part of the reason for MT's demise?

[Vacrix]

Wow. Love the Miracle mechanic. Top is going to be nuts once this set comes out. Depending on what they print with Miracle could we see a Counterbalance resurgence? Its great against quite a few decks in DTB right now so if they print something decent like a board sweeper with Miracle, I can see Counterbalance doing well with all their cantrips and Tops. Especially with everyone playing Burn and Maverick.

I really hope they print a new ritual to replace Cabal Ritual. Doomsday, ANT, and TES would go nuts with it and their cantrips. This new Fireblast is going to be DOPE in Hanni's WUR Quickdraw list as it plays 4 Brainstorm and 3 Magma Jet in the maindeck.


You can "interact" with Hexproof creatures just fine by having a creature on the board...
And there's always Innocent Blood and Liliana. Go BUG Control.

EDIT:
Question about Miracle. If you draw it and you want to cast it for its Miracle cost, then does that mean you must play it in the draw step? If so their is no way they can print a ritual with it because you would have to spend the mana in your drawstep.

[Whippoorwill]

And there's always Innocent Blood and Liliana. Go BUG Control.

EDIT:
Question about Miracle. If you draw it and you want to cast it for its Miracle cost, then does that mean you must play it in the draw step? If so their is no way they can print a ritual with it because you would have to spend the mana in your drawstep.

Those don't work on Sigarda:

Sigarda, Host of Herons 2GWW
Flying, Hexproof
Spells and abilities your opponents control can't cause you to sacrifice permanents
5/5



Miracle: Yes unless you have a way to skip your draw step and draw later in the turn or on your opponent's turn.

[Fatal]

Deed and cya,

anyway Miracle cards is next Mental Missteps - it will screams for Ban - Brainstorm/SDT or them.. I like Brainstorm not new broken mechanics..

[UseLess]

Funny how everybody is always saying cards are too expensive (CMC) for legacy to be playable. This was the exact same discussion as for Batterskull. And indeed, that card sees no play at all!..

I figure this card will be great in Nic Fit (at least in my friends'). That deck was always lacking a very solid 5-drop as GSZ target. Now they can have access to a 5/5 flyer which is almost impossible to get rid of. Ima so sad :(.

Miracle looks kinda strange though. We'll have to see what else the set brings us of this mechanic. Flipcards gave us Delver which sees much play, so I'm not already shouting it is worthless and sucks.

[Elminister]

Either Thunderous Wrath gets axed (like Mental Misstep) or DCI decides to ban Brainstorm. It's going to be crazy powerful in Legacy.

[Barook]

Either Thunderous Wrath gets axed (like Mental Misstep) or DCI decides to ban Brainstorm. It's going to be crazy powerful in Legacy.
A free counter that is playable by all decks and a 5 damage burn spell for :r: that requires a certain setup most of the time are leagues apart in terms of power.


On a separate note, fall set is confirmed as Return to Ravnica.

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lr52nnnew21qcu14xo1_400.png

[morgan_coke]

Everyone who says Thunderous Wrath requires setup is missing the point. If you want to do 5 damage to your opponent's face, then it just requires paying R during your draw step, which literally any burn deck can do. This thing only requires setup if you unluckily get it in your opening hand. I suspect that most of the "Miracle" cards will lean towards the "usable anytime" side of the spectrum. In turn, this leads me to think they'll either all be around the power level of Thunderous Wrath, and the mechanic is stupid busted and we'll all be yelling for stuff to get banned soon.

OR the super bolt is the best of the lot and we can largely ignore these things.

[RainbowPenguin]

Im torn between screaming YES and hoping this isnt what finally gets brainstorm banned.

+1.

I'm looking forward to an explanation of how exactly to handle Miracle cards.

About the rest of them, I don't think they are particularly threatening. Restoration Angel is good in limited, but I'm not even sure it will be matter in standard. Sigarda (GW angel) can be countered, removed by sweepers, outclassed by bigger creatures or legend ruled to death by clone effects, and those are abundant in standard. In legacy, Sigarda most likely just isn't effective enough for that cost.

[rufus]

You pretty much have to play Brainstorm or Top to get the best value out of miracle. I think it's fine that way, to keep a balance and not completely breaking the format.
Despite the high CMC of the spell it will still see play in some UR builds.

That, or only rarely draw more than one card per turn. I think dealing with it being in the initial 7 is really what you'd want Brainstorm and the like for.

[Nihil Credo]

By the by, anybody who isn't playing 4 Flickerwisps right now shouldn't bother much with the flash angel. Going from 3 mana to 4 in exchange for going from 1 to 4 toughness isn't a terribly exciting deal, and Flickerwisp's ability to target any permanent on the battlefield is going to be far more useful on average than the angel's Flash, doubly so in decks with Aether Vial.

Also, anyone who spouts opinions about a whole set from six fucking rares previewed at a convention deserves a career in journalism.

[DLifshitz]

Compare that new Demon to Abyssal Persecutor and it seems pretty crappy all of a sudden.

The enters the battlefield trigger interacts very badly with Undying. It's a bad card, really.

[DragoFireheart]

Thunderous Wrath could be really good for burn. Top decking it is really good for burn, but having it in your starting hand is ass.

Miracle is going to get broken somehow with Brainstorm and Top.

I have a funny feeling we are going to see a new creature that might shift the format.

[KevinTrudeau]

Some dude posted this on Salvation:


Also curious to see what this next revealed Miracle will be. One of the Wizards guys was chatting afterwards and let slip that there was a potentially crazy one (he thought it would be banned in Legacy almost right away). And surprise, it isn't blue. Wonder what is is, maybe a super cheap white Wrath effect? I could see that being too crazy to exist in Legacy without being broken in standard.

Should be interesting. Speaking of Salvation, Miracle reeks of Salvation game design.

[Barook]

Also curious to see what this next revealed Miracle will be. One of the Wizards guys was chatting afterwards and let slip that there was a potentially crazy one (he thought it would be banned in Legacy almost right away). And surprise, it isn't blue. Wonder what is is, maybe a super cheap white Wrath effect? I could see that being too crazy to exist in Legacy without being broken in standard.
Considering it isn't blue, then card draw is out of the window. And no, Wrath effects are not broken.

Most likely something black - either a powerful Ritual effect (unlikely to be ban-worthy broken) or some kind of tutor effect.

I'll probably stick to tutor effect, as a cheap top-deck tutor does sound pretty broken if done right.

[Deviruchi]

Not black for sure. They said that black will have 0 Miracle cards.

[Barook]

Not black for sure. They said that black will have 0 Miracle cards.
Interesting. So we're down to white, red and green?

Not exactly the colors to expect brokeness.

Green: Some kind of creature-tutor effect, Oath-style?
Red: Wheel of Fortune? :really:
White: Land Tax effect! Just kidding.

[Malchar]

I'm not surprised that Wizards doesn't think that the blue miracle will be good in legacy. It's probably only an ancestral recall, which would seem par by their standards.

[JDK]

The enters the battlefield trigger interacts very badly with Undying. It's a bad card, really.
And yet it could see play in those Messenger/Gravecrawler decks.

[Gheizen64]

Interesting. So we're down to white, red and green?

Not exactly the colors to expect brokeness.

Green: Some kind of creature-tutor effect, Oath-style?
Red: Wheel of Fortune? :really:
White: Land Tax effect! Just kidding.

Sneak attack effect? My bet is on a Wheel of Fortune Miracle

Wheel of Miracles 5RR
Sorcery
Each player discard their hand and draw 7 cards
Miracle 2R

White seems strange. What could white have so broken? A miracle wrath wouldn't be broken unless it costed something like 2WW and miracle W. White tutor seems unlikely. The only things that come to me as potentially broken are put-into play effects, red or green.

[JDK]

Another GSZ effect for Maverick, but with the ability to tutor for white creatures as well.

:rolleyes:

[Vacrix]

Those don't work on Sigarda:

Sigarda, Host of Herons 2GWW
Flying, Hexproof
Spells and abilities your opponents control can't cause you to sacrifice permanents
5/5
Obviously. The quote I was referring to mentioned Hexproof Creatures, NOT that one in particular. Thats why its second ability is so good. Unless your opponent gets Deed up to 5, its not going anywhere.

Wow so black isn't getting any Miracle Love? Thats just wrong. Black always gets Miracle Love. In porn at least.

I wonder. The green Miracle might be like 1G for a sylvan scrying, but you can pay it for G or 0 for the Miracle cost. Could be legit in TurboEldrazi. The blue, likely some kind of draw spell. The white, I hope its something like an O-Ring with Miracle for W.

[The Big Ragu]

The new heron chick is both more interesting to me than Avacyn, from a design persepctive, and more playable. Still almost certainly not good enough for Legacy, but seems fantastic in EDH and Standard, maybe Modern.

Unless your meta is heavy in edict effects and/or you see Thraximundar a lot, I can't see her having too many advantages over Uril.

[Cire]

I like the Soulbond mechanic


Silverblade Paladin 1ww
Creature - Human Knight
Soulbond (You may pair this creature with another unpaired creature when either enters the battlefield. They remain paired for as long as you control both of them.)
As long as Silverblade Paladin is paired with another creature, both creatures have double strike.
2/2

3rd turn place down this 2/2 Double striker and attack with your 4/5 Double Striking Goyf, who's getting +1/+1 from NH's exalted.

[Vacrix]

Soulbond is going to be a fun mechanic to play in Standard. I see it being harder to play in Legacy where the opponent will usually have a removal spell for one of the creatures. Mother of Runes will help in white. The good thing is that this creature and another both contribute to a pretty solid clock. Keep in mind that without Soulbond, this creature is a 2/2 body for 1WW. Some people have mentioned Goyf and some other stuff. I don't see this getting played in anything but DnT where you can Flickerwisp it to make it good again. Likely, they will kill the other creature though leaving this one to be Flickerwisp'd because its relatively useless by itself. Then you can swing in with Wisp for 6 flying and the first strike is even good when you need to block Delvers.

[Vacrix]

I wonder. If the Miracle mechanic winds up turning out some broken cards, will Thought Scour see more play in Legacy?

[Sloshthedark]

Miracle seems nice in general, Top will be better but awkward situations will arise - you keep the 1st drawn separately, mark it somehow (like in 90 angle on top of the library), reveal it or what? brainstorm? Sylvan Library? bluffing? elegant solution would be a miracle...

soulbound seems plain stupid, could have been universal, more intricate "new" and better banding; and I really don't like it doesn't care about summoning sickness

[JDK]

I wonder. If the Miracle mechanic winds up turning out some broken cards, will Thought Scour see more play in Legacy?

I don't think so. It'll still be a card pretty much only playable as a 0 to 3-of in Threshold.

[UnderwaterGuy]

I wonder. If the Miracle mechanic winds up turning out some broken cards, will Thought Scour see more play in Legacy?

What do you mean by this?

Thought Scour will see exactly the same amount of play in 1.5 as Mental Note did.

[Teknique]

I wonder. If the Miracle mechanic winds up turning out some broken cards, will Thought Scour see more play in Legacy?


What do you mean by this?

Thought Scour will see exactly the same amount of play in 1.5 as Mental Note did.

I'm assuming he's implying it would be good for milling your opponent's miracle cards after they stack them (top/bs).

[Nihil Credo]

Sneak attack effect? My bet is on a Wheel of Fortune MiracleWanker thought of the moment: a reprint of Wheel of Fortune but with a mana cost of RRR would probably be a good addition to Legacy. BRR or RRW, even better.

[Aggro_zombies]

Wanker thought of the moment: a reprint of Wheel of Fortune but with a mana cost of RRR would probably be a good addition to Legacy. BRR or RRW, even better.
Tribal Sorcery - Goblin

[Erdvermampfa]

Ban Brainstorm.

[Vacrix]

A tutor with Miracle would be tight. Maybe the blue one is something like..

Lol Miracles 3U
Instant
Search your library for a blue instant or sorcery card and put it into your hand.
Miracle U
"Jesus! I has a Miracles! Now your ass is mine."


Did anyone else notice that they pulled this keyword from fucking Go Fish? "Fished my wish bitch!" I might like this one but god damn they are running out of ideas. Soon we'll be like 'End of turn, Uno! I reveal my hand, take an extra turn. Oh what do you know! Miracle this shit. Then I activate my trap card and get out of jail free."

[Nihil Credo]

Assuming that a given idea is fun and balanced as a Magic mechanic, it would be very stupid to refuse to use it just because a different game did it first.

[DragoFireheart]

Ban Brainstorm.

Here we go again!

[Barook]

I don't see this getting played in anything but DnT where you can Flickerwisp it to make it good again. Likely, they will kill the other creature though leaving this one to be Flickerwisp'd because its relatively useless by itself. Then you can swing in with Wisp for 6 flying and the first strike is even good when you need to block Delvers.

After re-reading the wording of Soulbound, doesn't the ability imply that you can reuse it as often as you like?

Let's say:
Paladin enters the battlefield, you Soulbound it with Goyf.
Goyf attacks, eats a StP. Now Paladin is unpaired again.
Play another Goyf, Soulbound triggers again as Goyf enters the battlefield. You can now pair them again.

That's the way I'm reading it. And it actually sounds good if it's reuseable like that.

[Vacrix]

A good point. I actually missed that in the wording. 'Either' is crucial. That makes him way better.

[Zinch]

After re-reading the wording of Soulbound, doesn't the ability imply that you can reuse it as often as you like?

Let's say:
Paladin enters the battlefield, you Soulbound it with Goyf.
Goyf attacks, eats a StP. Now Paladin is unpaired again.
Play another Goyf, Soulbound triggers again as Goyf enters the battlefield. You can now pair them again.

That's the way I'm reading it. And it actually sounds good if it's reuseable like that.

Yeah, that is how it works.

In fact (until they release the comprehensive rules for this set, I guess) you can pair this creature with any number of creatures, because the only one that needs to be unpaired is the one entering the battlefield...

[Barook]

In fact (until they release the comprehensive rules for this set, I guess) you can pair this creature with any number of creatures, because the only one that needs to be unpaired is the one entering the battlefield...
The wording might make it possible, although I doubt that's the way it's intended.

With repairing Soulbound new tokens, it also makes a good partner for Batterskull.

Ball Lightning creatures are also an interesting way to use the Paladin.

[majikal]

I am highly amused by this soulbound mechanic. Am I the only one looking forward to slamming down a Scavenging Ooze with this guy on the table and saying, "They're married now?"

[Gheizen64]

The miracle card development was scared of it's a white removal spell, and it has Miracle 0. Seriously? Probably this:

Exile this, exile that 1WW
Instant
Exile target creature
Miracle 0

I think this is the most they could push it at. Or maybe, judging from the art that punish a vampire it has a non-white condition:

Terror light WW
Istant
Exile target non-white creature
Miracle 0

Far less likely, but it could even be an hoser :

BRos gettin' Hose W
Instant
Exile target black or red creature
Miracle 0

EDIT: thinking about it, a miracle 0 removal spell isn't even that good. Removal is good when you can hold on it and play it when you need it etc... 0 mana spells are good when you can play them even tapped out, gaining lots of tempo etc... A miracle alternate cost of 0 seems incredibly bland compared to any other way to play spells at 0 cmc like Daze or Fireblast. A Swords to plowshare that costed 0 but could only be played off topdeck wouldn't probably even be played.

[Vacrix]

What about something slightly more OP?

Uno! 5UUU
Sorcery
Take an extra turn after this one.
Miracle 1U

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Yeah, that is how it works.

In fact (until they release the comprehensive rules for this set, I guess) you can pair this creature with any number of creatures, because the only one that needs to be unpaired is the one entering the battlefield...

I think the "another unpaired creature" instead on "an unpaired creature" is supposed to imply that the Paladin also has to be unpaired. Everything else would make the design kind of pointless flavorwise.

Also Vacrix, I definitely want to play that Uno! card with Noxious Revival :p

[Vacrix]

Ha good point.

Noxious Revival actually looks pretty dope with these Miracle cards. Good thing I have a playset.

[JDK]

Looting/Careful Study, Noxious Revival...Miracles will happen. :laugh:

[Nihil Credo]

Screw Noxious Revival, if there's multiple interesting miracles Scroll Rack has a shot at relevancy.

(Though the cynic in me responds that more likely we would just see 32 Brainstorms become the norm in all top 8s, and quite possibly 20-30 Jaces too.)

[Barook]

Screw Noxious Revival, if there's multiple interesting miracles Scroll Rack has a shot at relevancy.

(Though the cynic in me responds that more likely we would just see 32 Brainstorms become the norm in all top 8s, and quite possibly 20-30 Jaces too.)
SDT is pretty strong with the miracle mechanic as well. They're most likely all instants (otherwise, it wouldn't make sense to cast a sorcery during your draw step). You can easily setup another miracle card during your opponent's turn and use the SDT draw to trigger it, as it isn't limited to your turn.


Everything else would make the design kind of pointless flavorwise.
Maybe he has a dark swinger side.

[TsumiBand]

Looks like all those Burn decks that are taking over Legacy will have to start maindecking Soldier of Fortune so the opponent's Burn deck doesn't just turn 3 a win. roffle roffle

[Mark Sun]

And... a Time Walk for 5UU. Oh, it has a Miracle Cost of 1U.

Starting to be a little nervous for SDT/Brainstorm.

[dschalter]

What about something slightly more OP?

Uno! 5UUU
Sorcery
Take an extra turn after this one.
Miracle 1U

not bad!

[Aggro_zombies]

And... a Time Walk for 5UU. Oh, it has a Miracle Cost of 1U.

Starting to be a little nervous for SDT/Brainstorm.
...was that really necessary, Wizards?

[Barook]

What about something slightly more OP?

Uno! 5UUU
Sorcery
Take an extra turn after this one.
Miracle 1U
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129834&d=1333944194
Almost nailed it. Except one :u: cheaper and getting exiled.

Still retarded powerful.

Edit:
Demonic Taskmaster :2::b:
Creature - Demon
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice a creature other than Demonic Taskmaster.
4/3
Not too shabby.

Also, another overcosted demon with a ridiculous effect:
Griselbrand 4bbbb
Legendary Creature - Demon
Flying, lifelink
Pay 7 life: Draw seven cards.
7/7

[TheArchitect]

Wlep. I guess we can say bye to brainstorm. I suppose I should start selling all my legacy stuff now.

[betterthenandrew]

Is Personal Tutor for new time walk a real thing? In addition to the obvious Brainstorm/SDT/Noxious Revival (if you want to go that deep) shenanigans.

[boneclub24]

I give up.

[Barook]

Is Personal Tutor for new time walk a real thing? In addition to the obvious Brainstorm/SDT/Noxious Revival (if you want to go that deep) shenanigans.
Revival doesn't work, it gets exiled (as if that would prevent abuse).

And the Personal Tutor thing sounds scary. Very scary.

I can't see Temporal Mastery staying unbanned for a long time.

[Stall_19]

How does Griselbrand compare to Jin in reanimator?

[Rizso]

Temporal Mastery sigh! I hoped they wouldnt print such absurd miracle cards. Barook the revival works when when combined with some kind of selfmill or discard like forbidden alchemy or Thirst for Knowledge.

[Antonius]

How does Griselbrand compare to Jin in reanimator?

wow.

as if this fucking time walk wasn't stupid enough they also made a Jin that can beat face on his own.

seriously, wotc, fucking stop. I feel like we should just form a league independent of the DCI with house rules banning retarded new sets. And bringing the combat stack back.

[boneclub24]

How does Griselbrand compare to Jin in reanimator?

Probably doesn't. Making the opponent have no hand is very oppressive.

[wolfstorm]

So can you miracle a sorcery on an opponents turn via a cantrip like brainstorm?

[Rizso]

yes! if they are printing time walks for 2 mana in miracle cost wonder what other mythic miracles will do then.. Balance? Wheel of Furtune? green miracle that cheats to large creatures into play?

[heroicraptor]

Presumably it works just like Suspend, where the ability tells you to cast the card even if you normally couldn't.

[Surging Chaos]

Brainstorm aside, this card pretty much guarantees that Mystical Tutor is never coming back.

[Stall_19]

Probably doesn't. Making the opponent have no hand is very oppressive.

Well I'm not exactly sure, which is why I asked.

But for Jin to have the other player empty their hand it needs to survive for a full turn. Lets say Griselbrand survives for a turn, that means you get to attack with a 7/7 flying lifelinker with a full hand and able to draw 7 more any time. How many decks can reasonably come back from that?

[Aggro_zombies]

Huh.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/avacynrestored/world

The art on the far right looks remarkably like a Soratami. But how would a being native to Kamigawa get to Innistrad?

Perhaps this is one of the planeswalkers? She'd like be U/x (or at least, the face looks feminine, but Meloku was male, so...).

[Mark Sun]

yes! if they are printing time walks for 2 mana in miracle cost wonder what other mythic miracles will do then.. Balance? Wheel of Furtune? green miracle that cheats to large creatures into play?

From Mark Rosewater's Tweets, it looks like the Time Walk was the card that they were most on the border about printing. I don't think any other cards will have a similar power level. Still, fuck.

[boneclub24]

Well I'm not exactly sure, which is why I asked.

But for Jin to have the other player empty their hand it needs to survive for a full turn. Lets say Griselbrand survives for a turn, that means you get to attack with a 7/7 flying lifelinker with a full hand and able to draw 7 more any time. How many decks can reasonably come back from that?

Well, the other issue is that if you Reanimate it, you won't have much life left to be drawing cards with.

Just what I predict. Purely speculative and may prove to be completely wrong.

[GradStudentGuy]

This card is highly abuseable. I give this card 50/50 on being on the next legacy ban list. Honestly wizards is not even trying any more about being mindful about eternal formats. This is very dangourly close to a power 9 card in the legacy format. This thing is going to feed turn 3 jaces and other silly plays. Just imaging chaining these with an active jace with snap casters noxious revivals and brainstorms.

[boneclub24]

This card is highly abuseable. I give this card 50/50 on being on the next legacy ban list. Honestly wizards is not even trying any more about being mindful about eternal formats. This is very dangourly close to a power 9 card in the legacy format. This thing is going to feed turn 3 jaces and other silly plays. Just imaging chaining these with an active jace with snap casters noxious revivals and brainstorms.

It exiles. Can't Revival it.

->
Still, fuck.

[Antonius]

Well, the other issue is that if you Reanimate it, you won't have much life left to be drawing cards with.

Just what I predict. Purely speculative and may prove to be completely wrong.

The flipside is the INSANE synergy with Exhume and Animate Dead. Exhume this demon fucker and you'll probably be up at 18 maybe 17 life. You can draw fourteen cards 0_0. What's better, causing your opponent to flush 4-5 cards or drawing an extra seven?

Also, 7/7 flying lifelink is going to dominate the board. If your opponent attacks into it...you get to draw seven more cards. Untap, fly over attack, draw seven more. Exhume or Animate a sphinx of the steel wind for more life gain...

Straight retarded.

[Namida]

Well, the other issue is that if you Reanimate it, you won't have much life left to be drawing cards with.

I think losing 15 life is worth basically outright winning the game most of the time--and the guy does have Lifelink, so you don't even need to draw the cards until you need them or are otherwise out of Harm's Way. But I'm not a reanimator player, so I can't say I'm an authority on the right cards for the deck.

[Rizso]

Also you get 7 lives of it when they sword to plowshares it.

[Stall_19]

Well, the other issue is that if you Reanimate it, you won't have much life left to be drawing cards with.

Just what I predict. Purely speculative and may prove to be completely wrong.

That is the biggest issue, though the good thing is the drawing is completely optional. If it doesn't die then you can attack and gain 7 life and if they have removal then Jin would have died just as well, so no harm no foul but the option to draw right away is a pretty big plus.

I haven't played enough Legacy to know if it's better than Jin.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Huh.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/avacynrestored/world

The art on the far right looks remarkably like a Soratami. But how would a being native to Kamigawa get to Innistrad?

Perhaps this is one of the planeswalkers? She'd like be U/x (or at least, the face looks feminine, but Meloku was male, so...).

I think it's a totally new planewalker.

[Mark Sun]

And... Personal Tutors are flying off the shelves. I have no money at the moment, so I just picked up some foil Noxious Revivals instead. If you can get Personal Tutors cheap, do it.

Oh, and...


http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/18134973.jpg

[Aggro_zombies]

might just be an angel but maybe it's that merfolk planeswalker?
We have an art for her though. I think her name was Koira?

Anyway, "soratami" was the first thing that came to mind because they had white skin (like, bone-white), white hair, and big floppy ear things that came out of their foreheads and usually arced back over their heads. That art appears to have something similar, anyway, but it's hard to tell because of how it's cropped.

[Rizso]

hmm Demonic Taskmaster doenst say you have to sacrifice it if its the only creature.

4/3 for 2b flying without a drawback as long as you dont have any other creatures.

Ritual aggro maybe!

[majikal]

Is it just me or does this new Time Walk make Doomsday/Laboratory Maniac a real deck?

[Antonius]

hmm Demonic Taskmaster doenst say you have to sacrifice it if its the only creature.

4/3 for 2b flying without a drawback as long as you dont have any other creatures.

Ritual aggro maybe!

Black Chalice aggro, more like.

[GradStudentGuy]

hmm Demonic Taskmaster doenst say you have to sacrifice it if its the only creature.

4/3 for 2b flying without a drawback as long as you dont have any other creatures.

Ritual aggro maybe!

Eva Green would love such a card. Its almost on par with a turn one Phyrexian Negator.

[Rune]

I guess the real question is if this brainfart of a card will be preemptively banned, or if it will make the format a complete joke for a short amount of time.

[boneclub24]

I guess the real question is if this brainfart of a card will be preemptively banned, or if it will make the format a complete joke for a short amount of time.

I'd sort of like to see it become a joke, just so wizards know how badly they fucked up.

[luckme10]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/190

Here's the preview article. He really doesn't say much.

[Occam]

Completely stupid. I'm sitting on a crapload of Personal Tutors and just ate a bunch of playsets once the card spoiled. Going to profit from this, but this card still pisses me off.

[Aggro_zombies]

I guess the real question is if this brainfart of a card will be preemptively banned, or if it will make the format a complete joke for a short amount of time.
They let Flash destroy the format for a GP despite getting plenty of warning that it would do so.

They also let Mental Misstep ravage the format for several months, though they apparently completely missed how that one would be used.

So who knows. But my money would be on Legacy being shitty for several months until they ban some combination of Brainstorm, Top, and/or Personal Tutor.

[GradStudentGuy]

I'd sort of like to see it become a joke, just so wizards know how badly they fucked up.

Agreed after mental misstep wizards just does not seem to care anymore about eternal formats. At least let them suffer through GP Time-walk in Atalanta .

[Barook]

Black Chalice aggro, more like.
Maybe. Demon Stompy does need more :2::b: threats.

It's more questionable what else it could play to complement it.

[Stall_19]

Also you get 7 lives of it when they sword to plowshares it.

That is a valid point that I didn't think about. The most common way to get rid of a creature that size also gives you back the investment payed for the 7 cards.

Swords is played a lot more than Path in legacy right?

[Aggro_zombies]

That is a valid point that I didn't think about. The most common way to get rid of a creature that size also gives you back the investment payed for the 7 cards.

Swords is played a lot more than Path in legacy right?
Path would come in out of the sideboard. And Karakasing Griselbrand after you pay 7 to draw seven seems like a lulzy way to set up an alpha strike.

[ivanpei]

They can't be that stupid. The new time walk has to get the ban hammer. It will be played in anything blue and drastically change the Legacy format. High tide will be the number 1 deck IMO because it abuses it the most. High tide is a turn 4 deck. With this card, it will be a consistent turn 3 deck. With brainstorm, preordain and ponder, it is extremely easy to set up the turn 3 walk into turn 4 combo. This puts high tide firmly into the Tier 1.

Delver aggro will eat this shit up. You can use it to get multiple attacks in when you chain the walks. It's an extremely powerful card which can turn aggro control into the undisputed tier 1. You can race other decks by simply having free walks while a Delver/green dude pecks at their life total.

Control will have to play it. I can see 4 Brainstorm, 4 Sensei, 3 Jace decks returning. Welcome back. Counterbalance. You use it to rig early walks and you basically get a bunch of free rampant growths. Late game you can use it in conjunction with Jace to totally out the game out of reach.

Card must be banned. This shit is retarded.

[Antonius]

They can't be that stupid. The new time walk has to get the ban hammer. It will be played in anything blue and drastically change the Legacy format. High tide will be the number 1 deck IMO because it abuses it the most. High tide is a turn 4 deck. With this card, it will be a consistent turn 3 deck. With brainstorm, preordain and ponder, it is extremely easy to set up the turn 3 walk into turn 4 combo. This puts high tide firmly into the Tier 1.

Delver aggro will eat this shit up. You can use it to get multiple attacks in when you chain the walks. It's an extremely powerful card which can turn aggro control into the undisputed tier 1. You can race other decks by simply having free walks while a Delver/green dude pecks at their life total.

Control will have to play it. I can see 4 Brainstorm, 4 Sensei, 3 Jace decks returning. Welcome back. Counterbalance. You use it to rig early walks and you basically get a bunch of free rampant growths. Late game you can use it in conjunction with Jace to totally out the game out of reach.

Card must be banned. This shit is retarded.

What's sad is that they really are that stupid. The DCI'll probably come to this same conclusion but do the opposite and ban all those cards that you just listed because they're "enablers" for this degenerate time-walk strategy

and in the process, they ban most of the "enablers" of fun in this format too. Baby with bathwater. Gone.

[Aggro_zombies]

They can't be that stupid. The new time walk has to get the ban hammer. It will be played in anything blue and drastically change the Legacy format. High tide will be the number 1 deck IMO because it abuses it the most. High tide is a turn 4 deck. With this card, it will be a consistent turn 3 deck. With brainstorm, preordain and ponder, it is extremely easy to set up the turn 3 walk into turn 4 combo. This puts high tide firmly into the Tier 1.

Delver aggro will eat this shit up. You can use it to get multiple attacks in when you chain the walks. It's an extremely powerful card which can turn aggro control into the undisputed tier 1. You can race other decks by simply having free walks while a Delver/green dude pecks at their life total.

Control will have to play it. I can see 4 Brainstorm, 4 Sensei, 3 Jace decks returning. Welcome back. Counterbalance. You use it to rig early walks and you basically get a bunch of free rampant growths. Late game you can use it in conjunction with Jace to totally out the game out of reach.

Card must be banned. This shit is retarded.
Precedent suggests that enablers get banned over the cards that are being immediately oppressive: see Mystical Tutor and Survival over Vengevine. MMS was a bit of a special case because it was just generally good, but this new Time Walk is going to need Top, Brainstorm, and/or Personal Tutor to be worth it. Any and all of those could see the banhammer if they mean miracles, and miracle-like mechanics, are safe in the future.

[rufus]

Recurring Temporal Mastery with stuff like False Mourning/Noxious Revival/Reclaim - salted with a little dredge for luck - is pretty stupid too. Though it does have issues with grave hate.

Hmm...maybe some Doomsday piles?

FWIW Grieselbrand is a pretty juicy reanimation/Necrotic Ooze/Sneak Attack option.

[CorpT]

Recurring Temporal Mastery with stuff like False Mourning/Noxious Revival/Reclaim - salted with a little dredge for luck - is pretty stupid too. Though it does have issues with grave hate.

Hmm...maybe some Doomsday piles?

FWIW Grieselbrand is a pretty juicy reanimation/Necrotic Ooze/Sneak Attack option.

It exiles itself when cast.

[Antonius]

I don't even have anything more to say at this point but I'm about to go to sleep for the night and I wanted to take a moment to once again underscore how furious I am that they did this bullshit. This is so god damned stupid.

[Namida]

Brainstorm aside, this card pretty much guarantees that Mystical Tutor is never coming back.

That alone is enough to make me just completely dislike this set.

I'm having a conniption fit because Temporal Mastery is a Time Walk a good percent of the time in any deck playing Brainstorm and Ponder/Top...I'm playing a deck that plays all three and I don't think I can justify shoehorning Temporal Mastery into it...and the card put the final nail in the coffin that was my hopes and dreams of ever playing something like NLS. Sweet.

[Surging Chaos]

Precedent suggests that enablers get banned over the cards that are being immediately oppressive: see Mystical Tutor and Survival over Vengevine. MMS was a bit of a special case because it was just generally good, but this new Time Walk is going to need Top, Brainstorm, and/or Personal Tutor to be worth it. Any and all of those could see the banhammer if they mean miracles, and miracle-like mechanics, are safe in the future.

Pretty much this. The DCI learned the hard way what happens when you don't ban enablers and instead ban the cards that piggyback off the enabler back when Necropotence was tearing up old Extended. I mean, seriously, that was the same format where Enduring Renewal was banned instead of Necro. People can throw a tantrum all they want about banning enablers like Survival because they're "fun" cards to play with, but I don't want to see another Necro fiasco where powerful enablers just find new friends to cause the same problems all over again.

[Nihil Credo]

There's too many ways to fix your top card to realistically ban them all. If Miracle Time Walk is good enough to become a regular 4-of, it will have to be banned itself. Plus, I think R&D hates decks that take a lot of extra turns only slightly less than they hate Dredge.

Also:

http://i.imgur.com/vAeRd.png

[Aggro_zombies]

Also:

http://i.imgur.com/vAeRd.png
The slightly paranoid cynic in me wants to interpret this as, "We're printing a card we know will be chase, putting it at the highest rarity, and then making bank while it wrecks formats. We'll then ban it because we knew it was OP and then all the people who spent tons of money, and the stores who opened tons of packs, trying to get this card will feel like idiots."

But that would just be silly.

[heroicraptor]

You know you're in trouble when the head of Development says a just-released card is broken.

[dschalter]

The slightly paranoid cynic in me wants to interpret this as, "We're printing a card we know will be chase, putting it at the highest rarity, and then making bank while it wrecks formats. We'll then ban it because we knew it was OP and then all the people who spent tons of money, and the stores who opened tons of packs, trying to get this card will feel like idiots."

But that would just be silly.

They're not going to print a card that they think would have to be banned in Standard, Jace helped sell a lot of packs of Worldwake, but it had many negative effects later on that were not good for their bottom line.

As for Eternal formats, well, not much to say there really.

[rufus]

It exiles itself when cast.

Guess my mind assploded before I got that far.

[Vacrix]

God DAMN did I call that shit or what?! One U off.

Counterbalance and High Tide are going to be the shit. Picking up a play set of Personal Tutors ASAP just to make some monies.

That demon is also nice. Drawing 7 cards is huge. Drawing 14 is even better. So its basically Yawgmoth's Bargain and a creature that gets shit done all on its own. I'll take 4 and see where I can stick it. Hitting 8 is possible for decks like Belcher and SI. Might we see a new storm engine here? Culling the Weak. That is all. Pretty funny though. They finally figured out how much Necropotence was supposed to cost. 4BBBB.

I don't think they will ban Brainstorm. I think they are going to print a few other cards to balance things out, if thats even possible.

[ivanpei]

If wizards does that money grab + banned bullshit... I think they'll lose alot of us as players. They cannot ban the enablers because they are too many. They gonna ban sleigh of hand/portent/serum visions too?

And gristleband just made sneak attack even stronger, wow. Just sneak it into play, draw 14. Drop a petal, drop emmy. Bash, win. Even if they deal with gristleband. Oh hi, I have a full grip of forces and goodies, gg.

[Kich867]

I genuinely don't even want to see this in the format. I don't even want to see this in standard. I don't want to see this anywhere.

I would have much preferred to see something like:

Miracle, U: Counter the next spell your opponent plays.

or 1U: Draw 3 cards.

or U: Tap all of your opponent's creatures.

or U, Choose and discard X cards: Draw X cards.

Or anything but fucking time walk.

[Surging Chaos]

They cannot ban the enablers because they are too many. They gonna ban sleigh of hand/portent/serum visions too?

This is true, although knowing R&D they'll just print another card that breaks library manipulation again later in the future.

I'll be sleeping on it for now. I still can't believe Wizards printed this card, but I guess we'll have a few months before June 20th to see where everything stands.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

It's getting the Memory Jar treatment. If it doesn't, Wizards has truly given up on Legacy and it's time to sell your staples. Let's hope that isn't the case.

[bondfan]

Spell Snare doesn't even hit it lol...

[ivanpei]

I agree that it has to get the memory jar treatment or legacy will turn into gush vintage. Basically everybody plays gush bond / temporal-brainstorm or a hate deck. The challenge is to craft the deck that best abuses temporal mastery. That definitely is not healthy.

[boneclub24]

Get fast Jace. Take millions of turns in a row while getting millions of +1s. Seems good.

-.-

[ivanpei]

Get fast Jace. Take millions of turns in a row while getting millions of +1s. Seems good.

-.-

This will be the defining play of temporal mastery legacy. It ramps you into jace, then combos with Jace for a billion activations. Crazy nuts. Use the extra lands, turns to drop the counterbalance lock or build up your manabase for punishing fire to take over.

[dahcmai]

It does exile itself to stop most stupidness. Unfortunately, that's not by far enough to keep new Time Walk from being busted as fuck. High Tide seems like the natural fit, though entire decks will get built around that one. Entirely too good.


What's funny is your splash color is probably going to have whatever Miracle card is in that color too since they all seem pretty damn stupid.



As for that demon, he's flat better than Jin. I'll gladly pay 14 life right off the bat to turn the game into a blow out. Sucks too, I just got my last foil Jin. I might even consider making my reanimator into a combo deck of a sort considering how good that guy actually is.

[Kich867]

On the reals, if this doesn't get banned that -might- be grounds for me to just stop playing legacy. I'll sell all my shit and play modern or something.

Fuck.

Where's that Keanu meme??

"What if wizard printed time walk in legacy...

To get us all to switch to modern!?"

[Deviruchi]

So... new DCI Banned & Restricted List Announcement will be in June ? This is just stupid card, and obv Mythic for $ set value.

[Kich867]

Has the white miracle been discussed yet? W: Put target whatever you want (basically) on the bottom of it's owner's library.

[boneclub24]

http://troll.me/images/conspiracy-keanu/what-if-wizards-printed-time-walk-in-legacy-to-get-us-to-all-play-modern.jpg

[Kich867]

http://troll.me/images/conspiracy-keanu/what-if-wizards-printed-time-walk-in-legacy-to-get-us-to-all-play-modern.jpg

Hahaha, thank you, I appreciate it. :laugh:

[boneclub24]

Anyway, this is what I'm looking at for Demon Stompy:

Creatures:
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Demonic Taskmaster
4 Abyssal Persecutor

Mana:
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

Disruption:
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

Maybe Contamination?

[lordofthepit]

I don't think the new Time Walk is going to break the format because of consistency issues, but this is a piece of terrible design.

If you naturally topdeck for the Miracle ability, you can obviously blow your opponent out by simply hitting more land drops or getting another attack step, depending on what kind of deck you are. Conversely, it can simply get stuck in your hand, or you can rip it late in topdeck mode where it's often just a free cycle. Obviously, you can set up the Miracles with cantrips and such.

The thing that pisses me off about the card is that it makes games that much more swingy. I got tired of Mental Misstep Legacy after 3 months because it came down to who could draw their Mental Missteps at the right time (i.e. almost always at the beginning of the game). This is even worse since the timing is more important and the effect is swingier.

[Kich867]

I don't think the new Time Walk is going to break the format because of consistency issues, but this is a piece of terrible design.

If you naturally topdeck for the Miracle ability, you can obviously blow your opponent out by simply hitting more land drops or getting another attack step, depending on what kind of deck you are. Conversely, it can simply get stuck in your hand, or you can rip it late in topdeck mode where it's often just a free cycle. Obviously, you can set up the Miracles with cantrips and such.

The thing that pisses me off about the card is that it makes games that much more swingy. I got tired of Mental Misstep Legacy after 3 months because it came down to who could draw their Mental Missteps at the right time (i.e. almost always at the beginning of the game). This is even worse since the timing is more important and the effect is swingier.

Except you're giving time walk to a deck that doesn't really need it. UW Stoneblade will resolve Jace, and when Jace resolves, you're going to be staring a timewalk in the face every time they see one. I mean, why not run it? They have 4 brainstorm and 3-4 jaces, which can brainstorm at will.

For the decks that want it, there won't be consistency issues with this card.

Hell it might push MUC to being a playable deck again..

[ivanpei]

Nice meme. Now my turn:

http://m.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-g.ak/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/580888_10150805082701834_512416833_11478441_1361057133_n.jpg

[RJM]

April Fool's was last week? :rolleyes:

[keys]

Griselbrand is pretty gross as a Dread Return target. You can dredge your entire deck before your attack step if you don't whiff. And it feeds Ichorid.

[Koby]

Griselbrand is pretty gross as a Dread Return target. You can dredge your entire deck before your attack step if you don't whiff. And it feeds Ichorid.

This makes Sneak Show that much better too. #FattiesRuiningEternal

[Gheizen64]

What about something slightly more OP?

Uno! 5UUU
Sorcery
Take an extra turn after this one.
Miracle 1U

Man how could i got fooled by maro once again, the broken spell was of course blue, well played mr. Vacrix :laugh:

[Kich867]

Man how could i got fooled by maro once again, the broken spell was of course blue, well played mr. Vacrix :laugh:

I think it's most frightening that it's actually cheaper to cast than what someone hypothetically made up, intending for it to be absurdly broken.

[Machahiko]

For so long I've had this bad feeling about how Wizards doesn't give a single thought about Legacy and all they want seems to be profit. Fuck balance, fuck fun cards, baby needs a new pair of shoes.

Printing cards that would be played in Legacy is cool and fun, but if this turns out the bad way it won't be pretty. The card is mythic so there won't be so many of these out. Modern decks want this, standard decks wants this, legacy wants this and... pretty much every format wants this card. This set will sell so much and fly so fast out of the shelves that they'll think that they did good job with this.

On the other hand, Griselbrand seems pretty cool and all, other cards have been boring as hell. I'm also hopeful that Temporal Mastery won't be as broken as you guys think it will be. Or maybe not, I'm just disappointed and I have never thought that getting extra turns is a fun or wise mechanic. Still it won't be a great draw from time to time and if you don't have brainstorm you can't even put it to the top of your deck. Maybe this card will be worse in standard, but in legacy.. pfft.

[Gheizen64]

Man this has to be banned like yesterday. Everyone is going to play 4 of it + 4 brainstorms +4 Jaces +4 Ponder.

Legacy fucked up for two months i'd guess.

Griselbrand is basically reanimable Bargain. My prediction? Card will be good, but not broken, and we'll see Bargain back in the format. Bargain is arguably worse than this as this is easier to reanimate and/or Sneak attack in.

The loner Demon is nice. Make me want to play it in some aggressive suicide deck, 4/3 flier for 3 mmh...

The exile spell sucks donkey *****

EDIT: i just realized how broken this is with Jace. Play jace, put spell on top. Next turn, timewalk, activate Jace once, then next turn, activate Jace again... lol. They can't ban brainstorm for this, they'd have to ban Jace and Ponder and SDT too. Just too clunky. Ban this once and for all.

[Elminister]

Wlep. I guess we can say bye to brainstorm. I suppose I should start selling all my legacy stuff now.

Yup, these Miracle cards' purpose can only be to drive people away from Legacy. I feel even the red one is broken, but Time Walk for 2 mana is just stupid. Hell, I reckon this mechanic is going to ruin Standard, too.

[randomly.anonymous]

Omg they didn't actually just print Time Walk again did they....??????

[Philipp2293]

Honestly, I'm pretty shocked. If this stays, I could see taking a hiatus from legacy. Hope this gets banned and not brainstorm, format was really fine lately.

Being also a casual multiplayer addict this set is gonna cost me a lot of money.

[Amon Amarth]

I'm absolutely 110% disappointed that this card is being printed. Did we really need to return to the days where Blue gets all the best cards? Like, why? It's not as if cards like Jace, Top, BS, or whatever are under the radar in Legacy, is ripping Time Walks off the top of your library in Standard really that fun/skillful?

Fuck this so very much.

[keys]

Is Miracle a triggered ability? (i.e. can I stifle it?)

[JBlaze]

Memory Jar was emergency banned they can do it with this also. I mean if were smashing people with overpowered cards and time walking them out of the fucking game I am the first guy in line but this is to much If broken shit is going down you better believe I am going to be the one doing it but I won't be happy about it I will be mad as hell if I have to pick up a play set of ridiculously expensive mythic rares that I know are just going to get banned

[menace13]

Hahahahahah!!!

[Zlatzman]

Seeing that Wizard's allowed for GP Flash to happen I don't believe Temporal Mastery is going to be emergency banned. In addition the first Legacy GP is GP Atlanta on the 30th of June, i.e. after scheduled bannings.

As for Banishing Stroke I wouldn't be surprised to see it replace Path to Exile in control decks already running Temporal Mastery, especially since it also answers artifacts and enchantments.

[luckme10]

The best part about good removal is one's ability to hold on to it for just the right time. Without SDT or something, I foresee its usefulness diminished because you have to play the card upon drawing it. Time walk, on the other hand, is good anytime.

[matunos]

I genuinely don't even want to see this in the format. I don't even want to see this in standard. I don't want to see this anywhere.

I would have much preferred to see something like:

Miracle, U: Counter the next spell your opponent plays.

or 1U: Draw 3 cards.

or U: Tap all of your opponent's creatures.

or U, Choose and discard X cards: Draw X cards.

Or anything but fucking time walk.

Really? You'd rather see Ancestral Recall than Time Walk?

I'd rather play Ancestral Recall than Time Walk. Profiting by an extra turn is situational, and miracle walk doesn't give you control over timing without a supporting card like Top.

On the other hand, I could almost always use 3 more cards.

[Barook]

Is Miracle a triggered ability? (i.e. can I stifle it?)
I don't think so.

If you really want to stop the bullshit (including Jace), then Gaddock Teeg (+GSZ, despite anti-synergy) will be your man.

[I am the brainwasher]

Another possibility is that you are only allowed to play a single copy of each Miracle-card in your 75, which would somewhat balance the incredible stupidity of these cards.
I was thinking about such things for quite some time, that extremely powerful spells will be printed at some point, but that they would be balanced by an own restriction rule, which would have a ton of flavour (epic moments/deeds/events that are happening or happened in the world of the set) and would make sense due to a historical point of view, just like Legendary Creatures.
Sadly, those cards seem to have none of that. No flavour, no feeling, just incredibly dumb power-creep that just doesn't belong to this game and are indeed just printed to get the cash. I am truly disappointed, but MaRo will bounce this off quite casually I think. Big fat boo to that on my part.
Hopefully there is something that no one's knowing about that doesn't make this a complete mess, but I don't have very high hopes.
Presumably, Legacy will be fukced for quite some time... .
:cry:

[Finn]

Miracle: the mechanic that finally got a brainstorm banned.

[catmint]

I personally like exciting times in legacy. New playables/innovations or even stuff completely changing the format (for a while). What sucks is that it will be expensive.. not like mental misstep.

Hope the time walk won't make things too stupid.

[hyperchord24]

How can you ban enablers when there are just so many of them? I really don't want to be that guy who says the sky is falling, but what are the chances they ban this card? I also don't like conspiracy theories, but are they trying to destroy legacy?

[Honorik]

I am sure Temporal Mastery will be banned before the new set become legal.
They are not so stupid to leave this legal and to ruin all the Legacy tournamets even for 2 weeks.

[luckme10]

Anyone actually goldfish with this thing? For stonebant, between brainstorm and jace, that's 7 outs, 4 more chances to chuck to force, and a rare unfiltered top deck. Fetchlands and Stoneforge mystic is around 10-12 shuffles. So yeah, using this card is a regular occurance whether initally drawn or not.

Chaining multiple time walks feels like diminishing returns - due to often not being able to make use of the land drops, it being too early to have established board position, or just having to draw another timewalk to chain. The period of time when you're casting the cards generally are setting up board position because that's when you have the fuel to filter cards. And in the process of filtering these cards, you're blowing brainstorms when you don't want to, or shuffling when you otherwise wouldn't. I feel like blue aggro type decks benefit much more highly than controlling decks.

Surprisingly, I actually don't think this is a card that will just be thrown into every blue deck. Throwing this card into blue decks probably means removing some of your counterspells too. My initial reaction to seeing this card was WTF like everyone else. But you know, now I'm actually not sure it'll have the same ubiquitous effect that mental misstep did. It's rather difficult to utilize brainstorm effectively if you're also trying to plant another topdeck. This card requires some building around as well as playing around.

[Einherjer]

Poll whether TimeWalk 2.0 should be banned right away or not:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23527-TimeWalk-2.0-Stillbirth

[zmattk]

Anyone actually goldfish with this thing? For stonebant, between brainstorm and jace, that's 7 outs, 4 more chances to chuck to force, and a rare unfiltered top deck. Fetchlands and Stoneforge mystic is around 10-12 shuffles. So yeah, using this card is a regular occurance whether initally drawn or not.

Chaining multiple time walks feels like diminishing returns - due to often not being able to make use of the land drops, it being too early to have established board position, or just having to draw another timewalk to chain. The period of time when you're casting the cards generally are setting up board position because that's when you have the fuel to filter cards. And in the process of filtering these cards, you're blowing brainstorms when you don't want to, or shuffling when you otherwise wouldn't. I feel like blue aggro type decks benefit much more highly than controlling decks.

Surprisingly, I actually don't think this is a card that will just be thrown into every blue deck. Throwing this card into blue decks probably means removing some of your counterspells too. My initial reaction to seeing this card was WTF like everyone else. But you know, now I'm actually not sure it'll have the same ubiquitous effect that mental misstep did. It's rather difficult to utilize brainstorm effectively if you're also trying to plant another topdeck. This card requires some building around as well as playing around.


I've thought this over a little bit as well, but it came down to one thing for me. If there is one single deck that can play this and utilize it properly, the effect on the game will be so huge and format warping there will be nothing that could be done except for banning any number of cards. Right now I bet everyone is just thinking about putting it into existing decks in place of one card and have it function to its full potential but that probably won't be the case. Any number of new decks can emerge from this not to mention the existing decks adapting to play it. Not to mention the fact that if it does make it to the format it will most definitely have the "Snapcaster" effect where everyone will be itching to play it. Then everyone who dominates with it will just say that it's the flavor of the week since it's new and it will be months until everyone realizes what a problem it is and something gets banned. I personally think it would just be safest to ban it before it can do anyone harm.

[Barook]

Would Temporal Mastery cost :2::u: or :4::u: to cast under Trinisphere?

[JDK]

Counterbalance and High Tide are going to be the shit. Picking up a play set of Personal Tutors ASAP just to make some monies.

High Tide is pretty tight and I don't think it has any space for other cards just for maybe being one turn faster.

[wcm8]

I wonder if an entire deck could be built around Griselbrand -- something kind of like the Bargain decks in Classic that used Soul Spike as a way to chain draws together and finish off the opponent. It'd obviously have to be cheated in with Show and Tell/Reanimation.

[mojoiskewl]

goodbye brainstorm :(

[SpikeyMikey]

Holy crap. As soon as that was spoiled, I went to SCG and bought a playset of NM Personal Tutors. That was approximately 10 hours ago. I started regretting only getting 1 playset last night, but I spent the night at this girl's place, so I was like fuck it, I'll buy another in the morning. They had something like 68 NM ones, 6 MP ones and like 30 or 40 M ones. They are currently sold out. No more Tutors for me :(

[SpikeyMikey]

Would Temporal Mastery cost :2::u: or :4::u: to cast under Trinisphere?

2U. The same as an alt-casted FoW costs 3. Miracle is just an alternative casting cost with special conditions, no different from say Massacre, Pulverize or the aforementioned Force of Will.

[randomly.anonymous]

Would Temporal Mastery cost :2::u: or :4::u: to cast under Trinisphere?

It would cost :2::u:

[Antonius]

Here we go --

Avacyn_Retarded

4 Underground Sea
3 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 City of Traitors

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Predict
4 Force of Will

4 Thoughtseize
4 Temporal Mastery
4 Show and Tell

4 Gristlebrand
3 Snapcaster Mage

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


I never thought I'd see the day when you could play Timewalk and Necropotence in the same deck. In legacy.

also, how is Temporal Mastery not an auto 4-of in like every blue/power-based Vintage deck? I mean, shit, even if you get stuck with one in hand and don't see your brainstorm or any of your four jaces you have the mana to just go Tap academy derp time walk. Between that, actual time walk and Yawg's will giving you another time walk some kind of Turbofog deck with 4 jace will be real crazy.

[socialite]

Let's all flip out over a bunch of bad cards.

Let's compare something that costs 20 CC to Necropotence.

Let's post a bunch of terrible deck lists and scream for a ban!

[Gui]

Why is people saying Brainstorm will be banned? TW 2.0 doesn't even need Brainstorm for it to work amazingly. Of course it helps, but clearly the strong effect is TW 2.0's, not Brainstorm. One could use, I dunno, something like Lat-Nam's Legacy to put the fatso back if needed.