[Deck] Green Stax

[frostmine]

[...dust...]

[Greenpoe]

High Market is bad. I get that it's meant to trigger Pattern, but you still need GG in a deck with only 10 forests and 2 other lands that tap for G. Those would be better off as just more forests or good old Wasteland.

[hyperchord24]

Then what else can trigger pattern? garruk relentless. Even phyrexian tower would give you mana which may be more relevant than 1 life. I think with all your tutors for big creatures, you might want to run more big creatures too.

[Obfuscate Freely]

How about using Wall of Mulch as a sacrifice outlet? I think this deck probably wants some copies of Wall of Roots, anyway, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to get a Wall "theme" going.

I would suggest a copy of Scavenging Ooze (or Loaming Shaman, if you prefer) in the sideboard. Give your Zeniths something to do against Reanimator and Dredge. I also like Relic of Progenitus over Ground Seal, both because the former is better against Dredge, and because Exhume doesn't target.

Have you thought about Sylvan Library at all?

[Vacrix]

Wall of Blossum seems inferior to Wall of Roots as they are both clearly blockers but one produces mana. I'm not sure the cantrip effect is really worth it when its not blocking very much after turn 4. At least Wall of Roots has the advantage of helping you accelerate. And you don't have to tap it to add mana like Vine Trellis or one of your mana dorks.

Also, Thrun, the Last Troll is a nice GSZ target. If you are planning on dealing with countermagic, they can save their Force for the game winning spell, either Pattern or NO. Without those 8 win cons, you're dead in the water.

What inspired Yaviyama Dryad? The Pattern activation? I think you should take another look at Smokestack. It might be slow but this deck is far from fast. All your games don't need to be 2nd or 3rd turn Natural Order wins. Those hands are great against aggro but when control starts countering your shit, you'd wish you were playing more threats.

I have to say though, Root Maze is a fucking killer against some decks. Its pretty funny when they have to wait til turn 3 just to use their first fetchland. At the same time, these cards are rather dead later on. I'd think you'd want to play some Library manipulation somewhere so you don't draw dead if the game drags on to mid or late game. Sensei's Divining Top comes to mind. And Sylvan Library if you don't want to sink mana and/or use your lifetotal as a resource.

Also, you might want to have a little section in the primer about the advantages to playing Green Stax over other builds of Stax.

[Nihil Credo]

Root Maze might be a Time Walk if you catch your opponent with a fistful of fetches, but I think that on average Beast Within will end up saving you more time.

And even though it probably won't work, I'd be sorely tempted to give Omnath, Locus of Mana a spin. The synergy with Tangle Wire(s) looks fairly ridiculous.

Awakening Zone seems tailor-made for the deck. Pity the spawns aren't green, but it could still easily replace Elder.

For a more general observation... you call this deck Stax, but it looks more like a (bad) combo deck to me. You've got 4 Mazes, 6 Spheres and 4 Tangle Wires, and that's where your "Stax" end; everything else is a bunch of random dudes + 8 Natural Order effects. That doesn't strike me as a winning combination: not enough lock pieces to do more than slow down your opponent, not enough pressure to reliably kill an opponent that has simply been slowed down.

[Freggle]

I like Root Maze but it's a very swingy card. So much so I'd likely cut it unless you ran Noble Hierarch along side your Birds of Paradise for quality hate like Back to Basics while only running basic forests.

Have you thought about running just quality beatz instead of a combo-ish kill? ...like Dungrove Elder & Thrun, The last Troll.

I'd think you'd win more soundly / consistently. Then you could fill your NO / Prog slots with Thalia, Suppression Field and and more Stax-y stuff.

...but if you love killing with big dudes (which I get) have you considered fading cards like Skyshroud Ridgeback (too bad Blastoderm isn't hexproof) in your Yavimya slot?

It's GSZ-able, it will auto trigger Pattern, and hit hard in the interim. ...this way you could loose the underwhelming High Market and it's activated abilities.

[Vacrix]

Sure you can accelerate into a win a bit faster, as early as turn 2. That has it's advantages against some decks; however, its good to know you can out last control with threats. As long as you can sneak through 3sphere, you turn off their countermagic. As long as you sneak through Smoke Stack, you're going to beat control in the mid-game to late game. Crucible and Smoke Stack are pretty much classic stacks. Wasteland wouldn't be bad in this. Combined with Rootmaze, you can keep them slowed down. Say they play a fetchland, fetch a non-basic. You destroy it. They've waited 3 turns to get a land they can't even use more than once. If you can make them keep dropping lands, they are pretty fucked. Also, Rootmaze + Wasteland + Crucible is practically a hard lock because you can destroy fetchs before they can get basics and you can destroy nonbasics. Give it a go.

[mordraid]

Hello there fellow green stax lover. I've been piloting an home-brew version on a green control deck with some success. I don't want to be mean or rude, but your list isn't that great. Some key cards are missing. With the synergy between tangle wire and winter orb you should include cards like undiscovered paradise and quirion ranger. Both there cards help nagate the winter orb effect on our side. Even if you play mono-colored deck, undiscovered wll ensure that you'll always have a minimum of 2 mana open.

Here's the list i've been testing so far:

Creatures:
4x llanowar elves
4x fyndhorn elves
4x quirion ranger
4x strangleroot geist
3x myr superion
2x phyrexian revoker
4x ezuri's brigade

Lock pieces:
4x tangle wire
4x winter orb

other spells:
4x aether vial
3x cursed scroll

lands:
3x undiscovered paradise
2x rishadan port
4x tree of tales
1x gaea's craddle
10x forest

Phyrexian revoker and cursed scroll are currently in testing and are usyally flex slots. They should be artifacts to enable easy metalcraft for ezuri's brigade to be devastating.

Tangle wire and winter orb are deadly if unprepared. aether vial, undiscovered paradise, quirion ranger and mana dorks really shines in this deck. Giving you the opportunity to operate the deck as if there were no lock pieces in play. Myr superion and ezuri's brigade is enough beatdown to go all the way. Besides removal, there is no real creatures that can rivalize an 8/8 trampler on turn 3, most of the time.

[mordraid]

The problem i see with your deck is that you don't have any creature that you can cast to win the game. You must cheat them into play. A control player will have quite an easy game countering the natural order.

[nedleeds]

Pretty sure Mirri's Guile or Sylvan Library have surpassed the glory that is Natural Selection.

[Viridia]

Why Wall of Mulch over Wall of Blossoms?

[bowvamp]

Given that you're aiming to sacrifice creatures anyway, have you tried Veteran Explorer? Also the 1 life is definitely not > getting 1 mana.

[Aernil]

I'd do something like:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Root Maze
3 Sylvan Library
4 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
3 Winter Orb
4 Tangle wire
4 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal
4 Wall of Blossoms

3 Maze of Ith
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
8 Forest


Winter orb is now significantly better with Maze due to working if tapped.
Everything else should be pretty clear.
As Planeswalkers are the most solid wincon staxx can play, Garruk 2.0 seems like the best choice.

[hofzge]

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
4 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
3 Winter Orb
2 Crop Rotation
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
10 Forest
4 Mishra's Factory
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland
4 Root Maze
2 Sylvan Library
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 3 Smokestack
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Crop Rotation
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 4 Elephant Grass


Here is my version: Without any creatures, with less non-mana producing lands and with Garruk Wildspeaker, as I think untapping Lands is worth a lot with the Tangle Wires and Winter Orbs.

Problems are the number of green sources and the win conditions.

[bruizar]

I used to brew with mono green and GW-stax builds, so for what it's worth, here are some of my finds.

Kudzu+Rishadan Port+Crucible of Worlds - Smokestack is better, but Kudzu is still awesome and green.

[QUOTE=frostmine;630637]Yes I think so. What else has synergy with Smokestack? Like when Yavimaya Elder hits the graveyard it sets off a land-grab. Traditional Stax has Crucible of Worlds to make it that much better to sacrifice lands with.

Khalni Garden

Some other considerations:
Mox Diamond
Riftstone Portal
Crop Rotation
Knight of the Reliquary
Defense of the Heart/Forbidden Orchard/Beast Within
If white: Splash all the white goodness aka humility/moat/Solitary Confinement/oblivion ring/enlightened tutor/swords to plowshares/etc etc


Also, I think, if you're playing with Green you should have a really good reason not to run Green Sun's Zenith.

[MightyPenguin007]

Here's a really rough first draft:

4 x Smokestack
4 x Chalice of the Void
3 x Tangle Wire
3 x Trinisphere
2 x Ensnaring Bridge
2 x Sundial of the Infinite

4 x Veteran Explorer
4 x Elvish Spirit Guide

4 x Green Sun's Zenith
4 x Root Maze
2 x Sylvan Library

3 x Garruk Wildspeaker

9 x Forest
4 x Wasteland
4 x Mishra's Factory
4 x Dryad Arbor

I haven't even started on a sideboard yet. That's going to be dependent on what's being played where you play locally. This is a starting point, definitely not a finished product. I'm not totally sold on Veteran Explorer in this kind of build, but it seems like a decent target for GSZ and provides some fodder for Smokestack if need be. I considered Explore too. That seems okay I guess. Crucible of Worlds would be fine here too I suppose. It's a staple in white builds. Obviously this needs polishing. Help?

[frogger42]

Here's a really rough first draft:

4 x Smokestack
4 x Chalice of the Void
3 x Tangle Wire
3 x Trinisphere
2 x Ensnaring Bridge
2 x Sundial of the Infinite

4 x Veteran Explorer
4 x Elvish Spirit Guide

4 x Green Sun's Zenith
4 x Root Maze
2 x Sylvan Library

3 x Garruk Wildspeaker

9 x Forest
4 x Wasteland
4 x Mishra's Factory
4 x Dryad Arbor

Hi Mightypenguin! I've been running all kinds of Stax-builds, and I think the problem I come up with in the color Green is a lack of really quality Planeswalkers. Blue has Jace, White has Elspeth (actually, red kinda stinks too, just Koth), and Garruk Wildspeaker on his own I don't feel is strong enough to run in Legacy. Relentless is pretty decent, and maybe Primal Hunter here would just be better - but at 5 mana, you really need another 4-8 CMC-4 win cons here. (Mishra's Factory is okay, but it's just soooo slooooow!)

So: I don't think Veteran Explorer + Smokestack is the way to go. You just give too many outs there; I'd try to decide on one or the other. I also have never been able to run Sylvan Library in my own Stax builds because there just aren't enough shuffle effects. Think about it: UWx can run 8+ fetches, Stoneforge Mystic, and even Ponders to bring the count well over 12. You've got GSZ, and that's if it doesn't get countered; Veteran Explorer if you don't have CotV on table. I think something has to give.
I always wanted to run Root Maze with this card from Invasion I think, where lands with abilities other than mana abilities don't untap. It would shut down your own Factories, and with Root Maze, it would also shut down opposing Fetchlands completely. It's an artifact for 2 mana, PLUS it cantrips (!!!), and I think if you're clever enough it wouldn't hurt you too much.
Also, if you're running all those 2-3-4 artifacts (Chalice, Trinisphere, Smokestack), you really want to build a manabase that runs City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb to the max. That would probably be my first suggestion, that you get a rough sense of what you want to do, then build a hearty manabase. That's what's going to allow you to run heavy spells - otherwise you're stuck on a normal curve, which dictates you run a tonna 1-drops, 2-drops, and a handful of 3 and 4. Otherwise you're just going to be left in the dust by conventional legacy decks, which are made to hit hard turns 1 and 2; you can only do that with Tombs and Cities.

And look at other lists, too. You can definitely fit in one more color here, though that would necessitate dropping the Factories or Wastes. I think you might have to, and maybe consider Jace/Elspeth as another win-con.

Good luck with the deck!
-Frogger

[MightyPenguin007]

Hi Mightypenguin! I've been running all kinds of Stax-builds, and I think the problem I come up with in the color Green is a lack of really quality Planeswalkers. Blue has Jace, White has Elspeth (actually, red kinda stinks too, just Koth), and Garruk Wildspeaker on his own I don't feel is strong enough to run in Legacy. Relentless is pretty decent, and maybe Primal Hunter here would just be better - but at 5 mana, you really need another 4-8 CMC-4 win cons here. (Mishra's Factory is okay, but it's just soooo slooooow!)

So: I don't think Veteran Explorer + Smokestack is the way to go. You just give too many outs there; I'd try to decide on one or the other. I also have never been able to run Sylvan Library in my own Stax builds because there just aren't enough shuffle effects. Think about it: UWx can run 8+ fetches, Stoneforge Mystic, and even Ponders to bring the count well over 12. You've got GSZ, and that's if it doesn't get countered; Veteran Explorer if you don't have CotV on table. I think something has to give.
I always wanted to run Root Maze with this card from Invasion I think, where lands with abilities other than mana abilities don't untap. It would shut down your own Factories, and with Root Maze, it would also shut down opposing Fetchlands completely. It's an artifact for 2 mana, PLUS it cantrips (!!!), and I think if you're clever enough it wouldn't hurt you too much.
Also, if you're running all those 2-3-4 artifacts (Chalice, Trinisphere, Smokestack), you really want to build a manabase that runs City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb to the max. That would probably be my first suggestion, that you get a rough sense of what you want to do, then build a hearty manabase. That's what's going to allow you to run heavy spells - otherwise you're stuck on a normal curve, which dictates you run a tonna 1-drops, 2-drops, and a handful of 3 and 4. Otherwise you're just going to be left in the dust by conventional legacy decks, which are made to hit hard turns 1 and 2; you can only do that with Tombs and Cities.

And look at other lists, too. You can definitely fit in one more color here, though that would necessitate dropping the Factories or Wastes. I think you might have to, and maybe consider Jace/Elspeth as another win-con.

Good luck with the deck!
-Frogger


Frogger,

Thanks for your reply and insight on this list! I appreciate all your input, and I was kind of leaning toward some of what you were getting at in your post as well. It's a VERY rough list to start with, but the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step, and I had to start somewhere.

I never really liked having the Veteran Explorers in this list. Providing outs is really bad in this style of deck. I will be cutting them completely from the list. I had considered going a route with some fetch of some kind, such as a Rampant Growth/Nature's Lore/Search for Tomorrow/Explore-kind of card. I know it's a turn later, but I had also considered dropping in some Lotus Petal alongside the Elvish Spirit Guides in order to provide additional speed. This with the GSZ and a couple of decent creatures as additional finishers seems somewhat solid anyhow.

Also, the card you were referring to is Tsabo's Web. I knew this card existed but couldn't remember much more than that about it. These are amazingly cheap and I will be picking up a stack - if for nothing more than nostalgia. At a quarter apiece they can't be beat!

Moving right along, what are your thoughts on the following:

- Uba Mask
- Freyalise's Winds
- Bottled Cloister
- Lodestone Golem
- Stunted Growth
- Plow Under

I also tend to agree with you about the planeswalker situation. It's a rough decision. Maybe something like Helix Pinnacle would even be a considerable inclusion? But I dunno, that may just be crazy talk.

I look forward to your reply.

[frogger42]

Frogger,

Thanks for your reply and insight on this list! I appreciate all your input, and I was kind of leaning toward some of what you were getting at in your post as well. It's a VERY rough list to start with, but the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step, and I had to start somewhere.

Moving right along, what are your thoughts on the following:

- Uba Mask
- Freyalise's Winds
- Bottled Cloister
- Lodestone Golem
- Stunted Growth
- Plow Under

I also tend to agree with you about the planeswalker situation. It's a rough decision. Maybe something like Helix Pinnacle would even be a considerable inclusion? But I dunno, that may just be crazy talk.

I look forward to your reply.

You're very much welcome! I can mostly speak to Lodestone Golem here, as I used to run 4x of him, and tbh, I don't think he's really strong enough to make it in the Legacy Meta. The fact that Stoneforge + Batterskull exists is absolutely brutal to the guy; if he were a 3/5, that might make him better, quite frankly. I've had to throw him in front of Batterskull time and time again, and it's really frustrating to see such a powerful card take out a token - bleh. I think he works only in Shops decks because he doesn't slow anything down - not your own spells, PW'ers, what have you. Even then... he really belongs in Type 1.

I have Uba Mask and was close to running it, but it's just too narrow. It only stops counterspells, really, and dropping another bomb will do the same thing. You have most of your prison pieces locked up, and with this kind of deck, you really have to struggle to find the 8-10 best win cons, the kind that could get there when your prison pieces fail.
Freyalise's Winds - I feel Static Orb is more powerful, and you'd have to make a good reason to run that.
Stunted Growth/ Plow Under - these are powerful cards, but I suspect they come down too late. And they don't remove actual threats, like creatures and stuff. Like I said, these slots should probably be win cons.
Bottled Cloister - This is an interesting one nowadays. Everyone and their mom runs Abrupt Decay, and roughly one Maelstrom Pulse, so the only real threat of losing your hand comes from Echoing Truth out of various Storm combo decks. It combos great with Ensnaring Bridge, but you'd also have to find a win con that gets around your own Bridge.
Helix Pinnacle - I probably wouldn't, as CMC 1 goes into your own Chalice. Darksteel Reactor is probably a better choice, but I think both are pretty slow.

I looked through my binder, and a few cards stuck out:
Viridian Emissary
Arboria
Awakening Zone
Eternal Witness

Emissary is a mini-Explorer that works with your Smokestack. Arboria is okay, just doesn't protect your PW'ers. Awakening Zone also works with Smokestack, and Witness seems too good to pass up in a heavy-green deck. Oh yeah, and if you want a fattie, Tarmogoyf's your man.
I think what I'd do first is figure out how you're going to win with a deck like this - PW'ers, Creatures, what have you - and try to build around that a bit. It's a bit of give and take with building, especially if you consider something like Arboria. I'm honestly not sure which direction you want to take it, because the best control card in Green is probably Witness, and after that... yeah. It might not even be possible to do a tier 1.5 Stax deck with green given the current card pool.
The last thing I'd consider is dropping the Spirit Guides and Lotus Petals for mana ramp that's more permanent. You generally want something like Mox Diamond or Chrome Mox, something that sticks around turn after turn, so you can get 4-5 uses out of it instead of one. So good luck finding a few win cons (with Ensnaring Bridge, I'd probably make one of them Jace) and hope the deck works out for you!

[MightyPenguin007]

@Frogger

Good suggestions. Looking back though, I wonder if the Sundial + Smokestack plan wouldn't just win on its own. I mean, once you tick up Smokestack and end the turn you don't draw, so you basically can win by decking. I know that's kind of fragile, but it's got some merit at least - better than Helix Pinnacle or Darksteel Reactor arguably.

I think I may need to find room for Life from the Loam, perhaps as a 2-of just to cycle Wasteland and slow them down until I assemble the pieces. Speaking of which, you don't think that Chalice gets in the way of Viridian Emissary too much? With it set on 0, 1, or 2 I contain a lot of problematic pieces from my opponents but still get in the way of some of my own. That being said, if the verdict is yes, then I should rethink my Life from the Loam plan. That also nullifies playing Tsabo's Web, which was a very interesting card to say the least.

Do you think it's worth the main deck slots to play Dismember or something like it (e.g., Gut Shot for Delvers, etc.)? It may not be depending on the Trinisphere situation.

The most difficult part about this deck is not finding the cards I want to play, but being sure that the deck doesn't get in its own way. Trinisphere and Chalice go a long way to slow the game to a reasonable pace, but I don't want to stop myself from winning in the process. I'll be looking over the card pool some more.

I've also been checking out threads dealing with an all-out aggro plan too. This seems kind of neat. Like I said awhile back, Legacy is about fun for me, so either path is fine. I just think this strategy is interesting and underplayed.