Sharuum Commander Combo

[Zunam]

Somehow I have difficulties in understanding how the common Commander Sharuum Combo works.

For reference:
It involves having a Disciple of the Vault and a Sharuum the Hegemon in play.
Then the player uses a copy effect like Sculpting Steel (copy effect has to be an artifact itself) on Sharuum.
The legend rule will lead to both Sharuums going to the graveyard and therefore triggering the Disciple while using the "When Sharuum enters the battlefield" triggered ability to bring back the Sharuum which will bring back the Sculpting Steel copying the Sharuum and so on....

My understanding (and quite sure a false understanding, that's why I am asking here) is:
When Sculpting Steel enters the Battlefield and becomes a copy of "real" Sharuum, the copy will put it's triggered ability ("When Sharuum the Hegemon enters the battlefield, you may return target artifact card from your graveyard to the battlefield.") on the stack.
But for doing so it will need a legal target. At this point however no Sharuum is in the graveyard yet because the legendary rule is a state based effect which will only happen whenever a player gets priority (rule 704.3).
My understanding is that a player will only get priority after the triggered ability is already on the stack and therefore Sharuum is not in the graveyard yet. So that the triggered ability cannot target Sharuuum.

Obviously I am wrong because this is a quite established Combo and should definitely work somehow.
Please help me clarifying where my understanding of the rules is messed up?

Thanks in Advance

[Koby]

The trigger will not be put onto the stack until you've finished resolving "Legend rule" - at that time both Sharuum and Sculting Steel will be in the graveyard as valid targets for the copy of Sharuum's EtB trigger.

[Sims]

Somehow I have difficulties in understanding how the common Commander Sharuum Combo works.

For reference:
It involves having a Disciple of the Vault and a Sharuum the Hegemon in play.
Then the player uses a copy effect like Sculpting Steel (copy effect has to be an artifact itself) on Sharuum.
The legend rule will lead to both Sharuums going to the graveyard and therefore triggering the Disciple while using the "When Sharuum enters the battlefield" triggered ability to bring back the Sharuum which will bring back the Sculpting Steel copying the Sharuum and so on....

My understanding (and quite sure a false understanding, that's why I am asking here) is:
When Sculpting Steel enters the Battlefield and becomes a copy of "real" Sharuum, the copy will put it's triggered ability ("When Sharuum the Hegemon enters the battlefield, you may return target artifact card from your graveyard to the battlefield.") on the stack.
But for doing so it will need a legal target. At this point however no Sharuum is in the graveyard yet because the legendary rule is a state based effect which will only happen whenever a player gets priority (rule 704.3).
My understanding is that a player will only get priority after the triggered ability is already on the stack and therefore Sharuum is not in the graveyard yet. So that the triggered ability cannot target Sharuuum.

Obviously I am wrong because this is a quite established Combo and should definitely work somehow.
Please help me clarifying where my understanding of the rules is messed up?

Thanks in Advance

I probably shouldn't respond because I'm not entirely sure this is accurate, so sorry CDR if it isn't.

I believe the way it works is that when you cast Sculpting Steel copying Sharuum, the state based effect regarding the Legend rule delays the enters the battlefield trigger. Sharuum and the Steel die, and then the Steel's ability is allowed to be placed on the stack. At this time, Sharuum is in the yard and a legal target for said ability to begin looping.

[Zunam]

Thanks for the really fast answers.

But I am still having some problems understanding what is happing.

"The trigger will not be put onto the stack until you've finished resolving "Legend rule" - at that time both Sharuum and Sculting Steel will be in the graveyard as valid targets for the copy of Sharuum's EtB trigger"

Does this mean that a player already gets priority before the triggered ability is triggered and put on the stack, or maybe that it is even required that the active player gets priority to put the triggered ability on the stack?
Because that's what I would imply to be true because of rule "704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, “Timing and Priority”), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions,"

Sorry if that question sounds a bit stupid but like I said I have the feeling of having a kind of messed-up understanding of how triggers and state-based effects work and that this is the main reason why I am confused about this Combo. So I want to understand how it works in detail.

Basically it comes down to the question "Why or because of which rule are the state based effects checked before the trigger is put on the stack?"

[Koby]

Does this mean that a player already gets priority before the triggered ability is triggered and put on the stack, or maybe that it is even required that the active player gets priority to put the triggered ability on the stack?
Because that's what I would imply to be true because of rule "704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, “Timing and Priority”), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions,"

Sorry if that question sounds a bit stupid but like I said I have the feeling of having a kind of messed-up understanding of how triggers and state-based effects work and that this is the main reason why I am confused about this Combo. So I want to understand how it works in detail.

Rule 704.3 exists to clean up any battlefield or other zone conditions that require "cleanup", like killing any creatures with lethal damage, destroying duplicate legends, etc - these are also known as State-Based Effects.

Once the Sculpting Steel resolves and begins to enter play, it selects something to copy, then enters as a copy. In this case, it copies a Sharuum with an EtB trigger. Before its controller could resolve the targets for the trigger ("whenever a player would..."), the game checks for State-Based effects - and puts duplicate Legends into the Graveyard. Now, the Active Player can select targets for Sculpting Steel-Sharuum's EtB trigger and both Sharuum and the Sculpting Steel are legal targets since they are both in the Graveyard. Finally, priority is returned to the active player.

Hope that clarifies a bit better.

For reference, here is the full rule 704.3

704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, "Timing and Priority"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no state-based actions are performed as the result of the step's first check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.

Emphasis added.

[Zunam]

Thanks I think that was the information I was searching for.

In addition I found
"116.2a Triggered abilities can trigger at any time, including while a spell is being cast, an ability is being activated, or a spell or ability is resolving. (See rule 603, “Handling Triggered Abilities.”) However, nothing actually happens at the time an ability triggers. Each time a player would receive priority, each ability that has triggered but hasn’t yet been put on the stack is put on the stack. See rule 116.5"

That was basically also my problem because I thought that triggering actually means already putting something on the stack and announcing it's targets but now I found out that it really just means "triggering" and that the ability is put on the stack at the moment a player would get priority (and therefore the state base effects being checked before that).

(Please still correct me I am wrong :-))

[Koby]

Triggers are "delayed" until a spell/effect finishes resolving, then put on the stack. They also wait until State-based actions are performed first. This is what allows the loop to operate.

[Malchar]

This might help your understanding. These are the essential steps to any triggered ability. First, the ability will "trigger" whenever the game matches the condition. Second, you do all state-based actions. Third, you put all the abilities that have triggered on the stack. When you put them on the stack, you choose targets, modes, and other things like that. Finally, after all players pass in succession, the ability resolves.

The reason that the Sharuum combo works is because the legend rule (a state-based action) kills the two Sharuums before you choose the target for Sharuum's ability. By the time you choose the target, Sharuum is already in the graveyard, so you can pick her.

116.2a as quoted above is the relevant ruling for this situation. Do not confuse this with "delayed triggered abilities", which are something different.