[SCD] Griselbrand

[TheG]

Hi everyone, besides the new Timewalk this new expansion brings to us another old-fashonated engine-card:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129833&d=1333944194

Griselbrand 4BBB

Legendary Creature - Demon
Flying, lifelink
Pay 7 life: Draw seven cards.

i really like this card 'cose it could be an excellent replacement to Jin for reanimator or (better imho) a strange draw-engine for a storm deck.

What's your opinion about it?

i wrote down a list for the storm combo "on the fly" when i see it:
-Engine
2 GriselBrand
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
2 Goryo's Vengeance
-Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
-Protection
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
-Closer
2 Tendrills of Agony
-Mana
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
+16 lands

very stright: Swamp>Ritual[1]>Entomb[2]>ShallowGrave(or Goryo's)[3]> -Reanimate Hasty GriselBrand- > -Swing for 7- > -Draw 21- > FINISH HIM

[(nameless one)]

If you're going to win right away and don't care about life, it can also be paired with Necrotic Ooze.

[rufus]

Does it really make sense to try to storm out with him? Once he hits the table, you get a grip of cards that you can use protect him with and go off again. You could play something like:

4 Griselbrand

4 Jin-Gitaxias
4 Shallow Grave
4 Goryo's Vengeance

4 Careful Study
4 Entomb

4 Duress
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
...


For chuckles, you can reanimated Jin on the opponent's EOT.

[Admiral_Arzar]

At worst, this thing makes an awesome EDH general, or just engine in B/x EDH combo.

[Oiolosse]

At worst, this thing makes an awesome EDH general, or just engine in B/x EDH combo.

Yes, at the least I'll shove him into most black EDH decks i have. I like the art too.

[Aggro_zombies]

Does it really make sense to try to storm out with him? Once he hits the table, you get a grip of cards that you can use protect him with and go off again.
I agree with this. Ad Nauseam is basically Griselly except with fewer vulnerabilities and the potential to draw more cards for the same amount of life.

[wcm8]

I was thinking that you could possibly use Soul Spike to chain multiple draws.

[Piceli89]

Griselbrand is also Stifle-able. This may end up being relevant once in a while, as double-drawing 7 can be a liability against some Stifle-Lightning Bolt seen lately (obviously, if the player is that bad to do it twice immediately or is forced to do so.)

[Kuma]

Griselbrand is not strictly better than Jin-Gitaxias, as he does not make your opponent discard. It also costs 15 life as opposed to 10 life to draw seven cards if you use Reanimate to get him out. That said, there are certainly situations where he's better than Jin-Gitaxias. I'd probably cut one Jin-Gitaxias for him in Reanimator. Griselbrand is worth it as an Entomb option.

[rufus]

I agree with this. Ad Nauseam is basically Griselly except with fewer vulnerabilities and the potential to draw more cards for the same amount of life.

OTOH: Grizzly Adams is easier to cheat into play, and is better with high cc cards.

[Aggro_zombies]

OTOH: Grizzly Adams is easier to cheat into play, and is better with high cc cards.
If I'm a storm deck, I don't want my draw engine to counterable via Stifle and StP.

I'm not sure what you mean about cheating him into play. Once you get him into play, subsequent Grisellies and reanimation cards become dead draws. If you cast him, it's infinitely more difficult to ramp to him than to 3BB.

I think it's Dredge, Reanimator, or bust for this guy.

[Vacrix]

I think I'm going to try him in a list that plays Culling the Weak and some Tallmen like Shield Sphere and Phyrexian Walker to stall Goblin Guides and the like. Then you have access to Cabal Therapy for protection and Diabolinc Intent for a set up piece. Belcher as an alternative kill.

Also, another pseudo Culling the Weak is Burnt Offering when playing in conjunction with Skyshroud Cutter. With 8 rituals that add BBBB, you can be sure that you'll be ramping to something dirty by turn 2 pretty consistently with the additional explosiveness of turn 1 kills from the sheer amount of acceleration.

But I'll be testing it as a casual, for fun deck. A serious application of Griselbrand probably involves Show and Tell and/or Sneak Attack.

[rufus]

...
I'm not sure what you mean about cheating him into play.
...
I think it's Dredge, Reanimator, or bust for this guy.

'Cheating' him into play - as in not paying the casting cost - so that stuff plus Sneak Attack, [card]Show and Tell[/cards], Dream Halls and maybe Kaalia of the Vast.

Hmm... come to think of it he could work pretty well with Food Chain too, though there may be better options.

[Whippoorwill]

He seems best in Dredge. Dread Return him to play and proceed to win.

[Vacrix]

Yeah but you need to run FKZ to win that turn.

[Aggro_zombies]

Yeah but you need to run FKZ to win that turn.
If you mill out your entire deck, it's pretty easy to Dread Return an FKZ. You will probably have at least one Narcomoeba, which you use to Therapy someone, and then you feed the resulting Zombies (or some of the zombies and any non-Zombie, non-Griselly guys you have left) into the second D Return. Et voila, giant army.

[Dark Ritual]

Either FKZ or lab maniac work in dredge for this guy to instantly win. The only advantage of maniac over FKZ is that he doesn't use the attack step, however he's vulnerable to removal, which is pretty bad while FKZ usually just face stomps the opponent.

In storm combo, I'd rather be running ad nauseam. The only thing going for this guy is the show and tell into play, but even that seems weak as drawing only 14 cards isn't a guaranteed kill and ad nauseam can draw more cards assuming you don't flip other high CMC cards.

I do like this guy in sneak and show though, this idea has potential in legacy I think. I'd love to sneak attack this guy in, swing, gain 7, then proceed to draw 7 or 14 cards.

[Aggro_zombies]

Either FKZ or lab maniac work in dredge for this guy to instantly win. The only advantage of maniac over FKZ is that he doesn't use the attack step, however he's vulnerable to removal, which is pretty bad while FKZ usually just face stomps the opponent.

In storm combo, I'd rather be running ad nauseam. The only thing going for this guy is the show and tell into play, but even that seems weak as drawing only 14 cards isn't a guaranteed kill and ad nauseam can draw more cards assuming you don't flip other high CMC cards.

I do like this guy in sneak and show though, this idea has potential in legacy I think. I'd love to sneak attack this guy in, swing, gain 7, then proceed to draw 7 or 14 cards.
He's still your worst Sneak Attack guy, though. Emrakul basically wins when you attack, and while Progenitus doesn't, he's also immune to removal. Griselly does none of these things, although I guess you can pay seven in response to an StP in hopes of finding a counter.

[Vacrix]

He's still your worst Sneak Attack guy, though. Emrakul basically wins when you attack, and while Progenitus doesn't, he's also immune to removal. Griselly does none of these things, although I guess you can pay seven in response to an StP in hopes of finding a counter.
Actually that depends. If you've dropped Sneak Attack the turn before you go off then when you drop Griselband for R and draw 14, you can then drop Emrakul anyway and swing with both for GG. And if not, you get to draw 7 more cards with Griselband due to life link or just draw 7 to play around Fireblast or some shit and then draw 7 more after the life link. I'd say he's actually the preferable drop because he pretty much ensures that you draw Emrakul anyway as well as protection spells for whatever the opponent might try to pull out of their ass.

[majikal]

I think the more serious question is: Do we call him Grizzly Adams or Russel Brand?

[Vacrix]

I was thinking Grizzlebang. Sounds so dirty.

[whienot]

Griselbargain, all the way.

[catmint]

He's still your worst Sneak Attack guy, though. Emrakul basically wins when you attack, and while Progenitus doesn't, he's also immune to removal. Griselly does none of these things, although I guess you can pay seven in response to an StP in hopes of finding a counter.

I totally disagree. Sneak Attack for 10 damage has no value at all except if you have another Emrakul and Progenitus. With a safe life total you can draw 7-14 get another red source + emmy and end it in the same turn. Under pressure you attack first then draw 7 and try to win the next turn. Shouldnt be too difficult.

Progenitus is better as a show&tell target against some decks, but the demons won't be far behind.

[ESG]

Griselbargain, all the way.

We have a winner.

This card is Bargain with wings (and lifelink!). The only challenge will be cheating it into play. I don't foresee that being too hard.

[Kich867]

I think the more serious question is: Do we call him Grizzly Adams or Russel Brand?

Grizzlebees?

Reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV8Jkb8M3Zc&feature=relmfu

[Erdvermampfa]

I support catmint's suggestion to replace Progenitus with Griselbrand in Sneak Attack. However the only concern regarding this is that it lowers the blue count for Force of Will (although Sneak Attack runs enough blue cards even without Progenitus) and that it might become a bit too much lifeloss considering that the deck usually runs Ancient Tomb and Force.

[Kich867]

I support catmint's suggestion to replace Progenitus with Griselbrand in Sneak Attack. However the only concern regarding this is that it lowers the blue count for Force of Will (although Sneak Attack runs enough blue cards even without Progenitus) and that it might become a bit too much lifeloss considering that the deck usually runs Ancient Tomb and Force.

In my experience playing against Sneak and Show type decks is that they just take too much damage for his draw 7 to not be exceedingly dangerous. Furthermore, if he's removed, what purpose did he just serve. For sure, progenitus can die to some things as well, but far fewer and it puts the opponent on a 2 turn clock. Drawing 7 cards isn't really required of the deck and he's much too easily removed for all the setup / self damage he produces.

[ivanpei]

I don't understand why people don't think he is better than Proggy in sneaky show. He's great with snt and he is great with sneak attack. He is by far the 2nd best monster. The only downside is that he doesn't pitch to force.

Also if you are so behind, a showed Proggy does that help much when you get alpha striked. Gristlebrand is great at holding the fort because of his lifelink. Opponents cannot just swing into him. He then draws you cards and next turn, you can go crazy with sneak attack emmy.

[catmint]

In my experience playing against Sneak and Show type decks is that they just take too much damage for his draw 7 to not be exceedingly dangerous. Furthermore, if he's removed, what purpose did he just serve. For sure, progenitus can die to some things as well, but far fewer and it puts the opponent on a 2 turn clock. Drawing 7 cards isn't really required of the deck and he's much too easily removed for all the setup / self damage he produces.

you are talking about show&tell: Yes Progenitus is usually better of a show&tell except for decks with sac effects or in the late game where he is outraced. The problem is sneak attack: A single Progenitus does not do anything whereas Griselbrand outright wins the game in 95% of the time!

So in the show&tell case:
How is a 7/7 easily removed? It has to be a STP which makes the card draw life neutral. And if he is targeted with STP AND you cannot counter after drawing 7 you basically traded: - 1 show and tell -1 Griselbrand +7 cards versus -1 STP. Giving you a card advantage of 6 cards IN THE WORST CASE.

Also Ancient Tomb as a 3 of is only activated for Show&Tell, Sneak attack, Intuition or Jace and not for any cantrips or counterspells. So the self inflicted damage is not as high as in a stompy or staxx deck making it easily possible to draw 7-14.


I don't understand why people don't think he is better than Proggy in sneaky show. He's great with snt and he is great with sneak attack. He is by far the 2nd best monster. The only downside is that he doesn't pitch to force. ....
Not sure... in a deck with ~25 blue cards I rather have him beeing immune to Redblast

[Admiral_Arzar]

I think the more serious question is: Do we call him Grizzly Adams or Russel Brand?

How about the unholy love child of both - GRIZZLYBRAND.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah but you need to run FKZ to win that turn.

Or Flayer of the Hatebound

[Vacrix]

Yes but Flayer isn't as sure of a win as decking yourself. If they have STP for Flayer or something then you aren't going to deal quite as much damage as you'd think with undying and such. Grizzlybang most certainly is a kill if you are playing FKZ.

[Infinitium]

Assuming the Grease enters play, you're going to therapy the opponent x4 and have a 7/7 lifelink in play in addition to your Zombie army, x4 Bridge protection versus topdecked mass removal and Ichorids. Not actually winning that turn is academic.

[ddt15]

I was thinking something like this:

4 Angel's Grace
4 Bargainboy

4 Show and Tell
4 LDV

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

4 Duress
4 Force of Will

1 Kill card (Tendrils?)
1 Echoing Truth

18 Land

Plan A: Drop Bargainboy, bargain into Angel's Grace, cast. Draw your whole deck, win.

Plan B: Drop Bargainboy or Emra (from sb?), Duress, Force, beatdown win.

This way it has built-in protection from stuff like burn/combo as well.

[Dreg]

Plan A: Drop Bargainboy, bargain into Angel's Grace, cast. Draw your whole deck, win.

No, no you can't. Assuming you drop your life til 6 (2 activations of Griselbrand) you won't have enough life to pay as a cost for the actiated to go off once more. So no, angel's grace does not work.

[ddt15]

No, no you can't. Assuming you drop your life til 6 (2 activations of Griselbrand) you won't have enough life to pay as a cost for the actiated to go off once more. So no, angel's grace does not work.

Why? Is there a rule that says you can't go to negative life?

[ZeinVoncy]

Why? Is there a rule that says you can't go to negative life?

Can't pay life when there is no life to pay, the loss of life is different then taking damage. If you are at one, you cannot afford to pay the Phyrexian mana cost since it requires two life.

[ddt15]

Can't pay life when there is no life to pay, the loss of life is different then taking damage. If you are at one, you cannot afford to pay the Phyrexian mana cost since it requires two life.
Ahh, too bad. Would've been an awesome combo. Back to brainstorming then.

[Mr. Safety]

Yes but Flayer isn't as sure of a win as decking yourself. If they have STP for Flayer or something then you aren't going to deal quite as much damage as you'd think with undying and such. Grizzlybang most certainly is a kill if you are playing FKZ.

Fair enough...it was just another option, but I agree that FKZ is definately superior. It just needs to hit the battlefield to do it's job by providing haste, whereas Flayer needs to stick around through each activation.

On a different note (and I saw someone post something about Angel's Grace) Griselbrand will become Ad Nauseam #5 in my jank combo deck which also uses 2x Phyrexian Unlife for the same benefit.

Angel's Grace + Ad Nauseam = draw your whole deck FTW.

[Einherjer]

Why do you all want to bring Griselbrand in a Stormcombo deck, I think he is way stronger in SneakAttack!.

[dahcmai]

I kind of like him in the Ooze combo deck we had a while back. Copying Griselbargain is pretty good at 4 mana I hear. Trying to figure out a good mix for it since it's easier to ditch one critter than 3, but Buried alive is still a powerhouse in that.