[RANT] WTF Legacy players!?!?!?!

[(nameless one)]

What the fuck is wrong with all these idiots going "ban Brainstorm, ban Green Sun Zenith, ban Miracle Walk, ban Knight of the Reliquary..." The list just goes on an on and on.

What the fuck, are you all retarded or something? Go play it out. You can't beat Maverick, go suck it up sunshine. Is Canadian/RUG Tempo too much for you? Boo hoo little fella. Go call 911 or something and get the whambulance.

Also, I blame SCG and all you horders among other things for this. If an ounce of stacked up printed cardboard didn't cost more than an ounce of gold, a lot of these whiners won't be whining about cards being too fucking good because they would have a secondary option. Also, Personal Tutor going on price? Really? Fucking Really!?!?!

First world fucking problems, I blew my budget on this Stoneblade deck and it can barely beat Maverick. Now I am fucked, the DCI needs to ban whatever makes that deck work. Seriously, what the fuck!?!??

[tsabo_tavoc]

This belongs to the drunken thread, doesn't it?

[Fuzzy]

I agree. If you blame any strategy to be busted and you're not playing it, you're the stupid here. If it's so unfair, join the team.

[TheElvishPiper]

I know right?!?!??!

But seriously, this has been going on forever. Due to the SCG Opens, everyone likes to play 1 of the top 3 or 4 decks, and then complain about the others. No one tries to beat the top decks, they just play whatever placed first the previous week. Thats the problem with Legacy and Legacy players. Did anyone else notice that the top decks in Legacy are the same ones from the weeks following the banning of Mental Misstep? How about the fact that the only good decks in Legacy during the Mental Misstep era were NO Rug, Stoneblade, and Hive Mind?

I think that if Legacy players (namely North American ones) would try to beat the best deck(s), rather than playing the same old crap from week to week, maybe the format wouldnt be as stale and people wouldnt be whining about bannings.

End rant....

[honestabe]

In all seriousness, OP is about 100% correct.

[joemauer]

Thanks Nameless One for making my day.

[dschalter]

In a format where decks are extremely expensive, changing decks isn't necessarily an easy proposition. People like to talk about how legacy is "cheaper than standard once you account for the fact that your cards don't rotate," but the reality is that if you want to play the best or beat the best you have to add cards to your collection fairly frequently (unless you want to spend more than you would on many years worth of standard all at once).

[baghdadbob]

We should ban all cards except creatures.

Also America!

[joemauer]

We should ban all cards except creatures.

Also America!

Except gofy or stoneforge mystic. Those two could use a good banning.

Might as well ban delver and snapcaster while we are at it.

[Solaran_X]

Ban everything until Craw Wurm is good again. And then ban Craw Wurm.

Pretty much covers all the bases, right?

[dontbiteitholmes]

I agree 110%. Can we go back to the old days of the Source where crying about fair cards earned you a "shut the fuck up noob" and a locked thread? So tired of this shit, and it's the same every time. First some central card in a deck has a good weekend or 2 back to back, then one person starts complaining. Now everyone would rather jump on the banned-wagon then actually take the time to think about how they could be beating said deck. Remember when it was ban Show and Tell, because Hive Mind was on a tear for 3 weeks? Bunch of scrubs complaining it was unwinnable for StoneBlade, while the good players were busy adding Spellstutters to their decks. "Oh my God, ban Green Sun Zenith!!!" Are you serious? Does Swords or Wrath not answer pretty much every creature that could possibly be Zenithed now?

If you think anything needs to be banned in the current Legacy you are a scrub of the highest caliber. Legacy is absolutely fine as is.

Of course now we don't even wait for the card to be released before we cry for a ban. Shit we don't even wait to see the rest of the set. 114 people voted to preemptively ban the new Miracle Walk. How many of these people tested the card even once, and how many just read the card and read the shit storm in the forums and decided with absolutely zero evidence the card was broken. I have yet to see a single decklist where the card is even close to broken, in fact I think I've seen one list that wasn't complete garbage so far. So now we don't even have to test the card to whine about it, we just see people complaining and instantly jump on the ship.

[lavafrogg]

Isn't that how the internet works? It is pretty much the emperor's new clothes over and over again. The asshole is naked everyone and some cards are good. It is how a metagame works....fucking sheep I swear.

[Mr Miagi]

Totally agree with namless one.

Aditionally mods should use their powers more agressively and lock all those whinefest threads. Legacy was always known to take care of dtb and flavor of the month decks, mechanics, archetypes etc.. if ppl rather whine then trying to break those decks.. well then gtfo!

[boneclub24]

Sometimes I'm not sure if they are making it an ongoing joke and being sarcastic, or if they are serious.

[Julian23]

http://i.imgur.com/AvMd5.jpg

This thread served as inspiration.

[Infinitium]

Yes. How dare people have opinions differing from your own about what would constitute the better design of a collectible card game.

[death]

The whole point is this game has gotten so competitive that we've forgotten the reason why we started playing it in the first place: to have fun.

[dahcmai]

I find it funnier that most of the really scary good deck builders have gone quiet lately.

[azador]

The whole point is this game has gotten so competitive that we've forgotten the reason why we started playing it in the first place: to have fun.

This, this, a thousand times this. It makes me sick seeing how absurdly overpriced these little pieces of cardboard are. I'm not saying this due to personal lack of funds, as I've owned almost every deck at different points in time. I'm saying this because it makes people totally irrational, much as the OP said, break the bank on a deck you like? Can't beat anything two months later? Of course they're frustrated, I get that feeling. I believe 100% that if prices of cards where more reasonable the assinine banning discussions would fall off considerably.
The only way that will happen though is if people remember that we all started playing magic because it was a fun thing to do with our friends and stop treating mtg like an investment and start treating it like a game like it actually is.
I don't play much anymore outside of small locals twice a month, why? Nobody is having fun anymore, everyone (myself included) got way too serious. I regret that more than I can say. The game has been ruined for so many people due to hoarding and wannabe brokers and pros.

[Pinoy Goblin]

What the fuck is wrong with all these idiots going "ban Brainstorm, ban Green Sun Zenith, ban Miracle Walk, ban Knight of the Reliquary..." The list just goes on an on and on.

What the fuck, are you all retarded or something? Go play it out. You can't beat Maverick, go suck it up sunshine. Is Canadian/RUG Tempo too much for you? Boo hoo little fella. Go call 911 or something and get the whambulance.

Also, I blame SCG and all you horders among other things for this. If an ounce of stacked up printed cardboard didn't cost more than an ounce of gold, a lot of these whiners won't be whining about cards being too fucking good because they would have a secondary option. Also, Personal Tutor going on price? Really? Fucking Really!?!?!

First world fucking problems, I blew my budget on this Stoneblade deck and it can barely beat Maverick. Now I am fucked, the DCI needs to ban whatever makes that deck work. Seriously, what the fuck!?!??

If you can't beat them amigo join THEM or just play CRAW WURM? WTF!!!

[the Thin White Duke]

I think what needs banning is the internet. If people couldn't net deck and couldn't check prices on Ebay or Star City, then we'd see a change. There wouldn't be rushes to get the next big card which jack up prices. People would have to come up with strategies of their own. People would come up with reasonable prices for cards based on their region. There would be no spoilers for new sets...
That actually sounds like how things were back in '93... (oh the memories)
So instead of banning the cards, let's just ban the internet!

[sdematt]

Julian23

http://i.imgur.com/AvMd5.jpg

This thread served as inspiration.



Seems too good, ban it.

-Matt

[Oiolosse]

i think what needs banning is the internet. If people couldn't net deck and couldn't check prices on ebay or star city, then we'd see a change. There wouldn't be rushes to get the next big card which jack up prices. People would have to come up with strategies of their own. People would come up with reasonable prices for cards based on their region. There would be no spoilers for new sets...
That actually sounds like how things were back in '93... (oh the memories)
so instead of banning the cards, let's just ban the internet!

I also love North Korea!

[dontbiteitholmes]

Yes. How dare people have opinions differing from your own about what would constitute the better design of a collectible card game.

Differing opinions would be one thing. As it stands 99% of the time people have complained about a card needing to be banned it was solved shortly thereafter by a metagame adjustment. There is an official thread for banning discussions yet EVERY TIME it spills out into a new thread. Even worse this "discussion" spills into threads that have nothing to do with the B&R list. Back in the day discussions about what to ban or unban were prohibited. If you started talking about it the thread would end up locked as soon as that discussion overshadowed whatever the thread was supposed to be about. Now it pretty much spills into every discussion at one time or another.

I'm fine with people talking about what they feel should be banned or unbanned, but it needs to be reigned in as...
#1- it's an ultimately useless discussion to have, no one here makes those choices and if the DCI listened to people complaining in these forums they would have ruined the format long ago.
#2- It's distracting from threads where there should be legitimate discussion. Any thread about a deck on a hot streak should be full of people discussing ways to beat the deck, what makes the deck good, what SB options should be considered vs. it, what it means to the metagame, ect. Instead every thread like this quickly turns into a ban this/ban that discussion which completely distracts from what should be a constructive discussion.

Talking about what should be banned / unbanned is fine, but keep it in the THREAD ABOUT B&R discussion where it belongs. Take the Bitching about the price of card thread as an example. If every time someone talked about Wasteland/Force/Candelabra/Moat in a thread we started complaining about the price of cards this forum would be worthless. If we started a thread everytime a card jumped in value the forum would be polluted with...
THREAD: Personal Tutor is Expensive now!!!
THREAD: OMG Temporal Mastery $35 preorder!!!
THREAD: New Red PW $25 WTF?

Do everyone a favor mods. Direct people to the B&R discussion thread when they start spitting that garbage elsewhere. The "Maverick in the metagame" thread officially has more people complaining about GSZ than people discussing how to beat Maverick.

[Julian23]

I wish this forum would return to a bit more of a elitist/professional attitude. Kind of the Team Liquid of Legacy. Complaining about balance, whining and all that kind of stuff is punished more harshly there. There's still lots of mish/mash stuff, but the Strategy forums are actually moderated pretty well. Not because mods there would be better, but because they enforce a more elitist policy.

I mean, when someone starts arguing about stuff like Force of Will without brining up new arguments, moderators should feel comfortable handing out warnings or temp bans.

[Arianrhod]

http://mtggiftsgiven.blogspot.com/2012/04/on-death-of-legacy.html

This sums up my thoughts on the matter.

[luckme10]

I wonder if it has anything to do with the rising costs of legacy and people feeling squeamish about having to reinvest when a new set comes out.

Anyways, here are my thoughts: Picture links to video
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/3931/picture1ab.png (http://uploadvideos.tv/player/embed_player.php?vid=1996)

[ESG]

I wonder if it has anything to do with the rising costs of legacy and people feeling squimish about having to reinvest when a new set comes out.

Reinvest? You mean buy one or two new cards instead of overhauling entire decks, as in Standard and maybe Modern?

[frogczar]

See, the OP and all this blowing of each other's blue members sounds like the real whining to me. "Right on Bro! Lets have a big, blue-colored group hug and throw a party for Brainstorm! Long live overpowered cards! We'll even invite a clown to play Jace the Mindsculptor! Hurray!"

Boo hoo, someone once pointed out that Brainstorm is too good and now you're going to cry about the discussion that it might get banned someday?

Get over it, Blue IS too good and has been for a long time.

The irony is that I actually agree with the statement that people need to be more creative about beating the top decks before they start complaining and asking for bans. The success of decks like Maverick means that the format is healthy and there really don't need to be any cards banned anytime soon.

That being said... all you Brainstorm-junkies need to chill out. Go play with some other colors for a change and see things from other people's perspectives.

[frogczar]

http://mtggiftsgiven.blogspot.com/2012/04/on-death-of-legacy.html

This sums up my thoughts on the matter.

Great summary. This is how I feel as well.

[nedleeds]

I agree. If you blame any strategy to be busted and you're not playing it, you're the stupid here. If it's so unfair, join the team.

Yes then everyone can play the same deck, we'll call the game 'Go Fish'.

[Julian23]

Yes then everyone can play the same deck, we'll call the game 'Go Fish'.

You're overestimating the human brain by a lot. Even during the era of Flash, people were still playing a lot of other decks. And to be fair, Legacy is as far from such a dominant strategy as it has ever been.

The goal ist not to make every matchup as close to 50/50 as possible. Actually, a format in which this was the case would be something I'd not take a lot of joy playing in. Instead what is considered healthy is a format that can be considered well-rounded with various archetypes holding each other in check.

That format is Legacy.

[herbig]

What the fuck is wrong with all these idiots going "ban Brainstorm, ban Green Sun Zenith, ban Miracle Walk, ban Knight of the Reliquary..." The list just goes on an on and on.

What the fuck, are you all retarded or something? Go play it out. You can't beat Maverick, go suck it up sunshine. Is Canadian/RUG Tempo too much for you? Boo hoo little fella. Go call 911 or something and get the whambulance.

Also, I blame SCG and all you horders among other things for this. If an ounce of stacked up printed cardboard didn't cost more than an ounce of gold, a lot of these whiners won't be whining about cards being too fucking good because they would have a secondary option. Also, Personal Tutor going on price? Really? Fucking Really!?!?!

First world fucking problems, I blew my budget on this Stoneblade deck and it can barely beat Maverick. Now I am fucked, the DCI needs to ban whatever makes that deck work. Seriously, what the fuck!?!??

This post was much too long. I did not read it.

[Richard Cheese]

I wish this forum would return to a bit more of a elitist/professional attitude. Kind of the Team Liquid of Legacy. Complaining about balance, whining and all that kind of stuff is punished more harshly there. There's still lots of mish/mash stuff, but the Strategy forums are actually moderated pretty well. Not because mods there would be better, but because they enforce a more elitist policy.

I mean, when someone starts arguing about stuff like Force of Will without brining up new arguments, moderators should feel comfortable handing out warnings or temp bans.

Or people could just stop responding when they see the same old bullshit surface over and over again.

[Julian23]

Or people could just stop responding when they see the same old bullshit surface over and over again.

Not gonna happen.

http://i.imgur.com/VoR6M.png

[Wombo Combo]

http://i.imgur.com/jIqHE.gif

[dontbiteitholmes]

See, the OP and all this blowing of each other's blue members sounds like the real whining to me. "Right on Bro! Lets have a big, blue-colored group hug and throw a party for Brainstorm! Long live overpowered cards! We'll even invite a clown to play Jace the Mindsculptor! Hurray!"

Boo hoo, someone once pointed out that Brainstorm is too good and now you're going to cry about the discussion that it might get banned someday?

Get over it, Blue IS too good and has been for a long time.

The irony is that I actually agree with the statement that people need to be more creative about beating the top decks before they start complaining and asking for bans. The success of decks like Maverick means that the format is healthy and there really don't need to be any cards banned anytime soon.

That being said... all you Brainstorm-junkies need to chill out. Go play with some other colors for a change and see things from other people's perspectives.

#1 - You have 11 posts, you weren't have for ban this card versions rounds 1 - 5000. Take a look at the B&R speculation thread if you want some idea of how horrid this format would be if WotC listened to these people.
#2 - It would be one thing if it was only Brainstorm, but it's been Top, Goyf, Lackey, Coralhelm, Show&Tell, Ad Nauseum, GSZ, Mystic, Order, pretty much and card that's top 8'd more than once in a 3 week period, which is apparently a bannable offense.
#3 - Even that wouldn't be that big of a deal if it stayed in the B&R thread. That's the place for complaining or ranting about whatever card you feel is unfair. Instead it commonly derails what could be useful discussion. Talking about what should be banned/unbanned is the most useless conversation we could have. Sometimes it's a nice diversion to hear what other people think about the subject but in the end nothing is going to get banned / unbanned because someone complained about it on the source. So just keep it in it's thread and out of all the others.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

See, the OP and all this blowing of each other's blue members sounds like the real whining to me. "Right on Bro! Lets have a big, blue-colored group hug and throw a party for Brainstorm! Long live overpowered cards! We'll even invite a clown to play Jace the Mindsculptor! Hurray!"

Boo hoo, someone once pointed out that Brainstorm is too good and now you're going to cry about the discussion that it might get banned someday?

Get over it, Blue IS too good and has been for a long time.

The irony is that I actually agree with the statement that people need to be more creative about beating the top decks before they start complaining and asking for bans. The success of decks like Maverick means that the format is healthy and there really don't need to be any cards banned anytime soon.

That being said... all you Brainstorm-junkies need to chill out. Go play with some other colors for a change and see things from other people's perspectives.

If blue IS too good and has been for a long time, why the fuck is anyone playing anything other than blue? Is everyone not playing blue just stupid?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Well looks like this thread actually accomplished something.

[dahcmai]

The pics alone were full of win.

[caiomarcos]

Great summary. This is how I feel as well.

Summary? fucking thing is 20000000000000 words long. TL, DR

[Picc]

Summary? fucking thing is 20000000000000 words long. TL, DR

Just imagine if you had to read the entire dissertation XD

[DrJones]

If blue IS too good and has been for a long time, why the fuck is anyone playing anything other than blue? Is everyone not playing blue just stupid?In the opinion of the game designers (http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/s6iw9/ama_with_mark_rosewater_head_designer_of_magic/c4bzklw), yes.

[Julian23]

Blue has one thing going for it that all the other colors are far behind in: consistency. Therefor, when it comes to long, drawn out tournament settings, traditional blue design will have a higher chance of performing better than e.g. a color like red that is traditionally built around chaos and unreliability.

If you really want to weaken blue, print cards to promote consistency in other colors. And, if you still care about flavor, try not to violate the color wheel while doing so.

[DrJones]

I have a fine-tuned eye for game balance, and I would say that the problem with blue is merely that it has broken cards, that more of them are printed in every set, and that no proper hoser for these cards are printed outside of blue.

Every time a set is spoiled, I rate the entire set using R&D's metric to know which color I should play at the prerelease. In every set, blue is filled with plenty of mediocre cards, and then some bathshit insasely crazy rare cards that are either 4.0, 4.5 and 5.0 in the scale and which are the ones that break constructed. The worst color is usually black (though many times it is green), and you will be hard pressed to see a playable black deck in modern, extended, or standard. Even in legacy black is non-existent outside combo decks that rely on old cards from Mirage/Tempest/Urza's Saga era.

[honestabe]

Blue is the most popular color. WoTC is a business that wants to sell packs. They know that tournament players are more likely to draft and buy packs if they're getting cards they want.

Does blue get a little more love than other colors? Sure, but it's not as bad as all the whiners and complainers who swear brainstorm raped their first born would like to think.

[DrJones]

Blue is the most popular color. WoTC is a business that wants to sell packs. They know that tournament players are more likely to draft and buy packs if they're getting cards they want.

Does blue get a little more love than other colors? Sure, but it's not as bad as all the whiners and complainers who swear brainstorm raped their first born would like to think.I wouldn't say a "little more love". I would say blue is the spoiled child by a shot so long it bypasses the Earth's curvature, and I would still be too generous. Most of the problems we have with power escalation is because WotC is trying to make all the other colors as good as blue, while the game would be a lot better if blue was just toned down of its most broken cards. :rolleyes:

[Snap_Keep]

Maverick is the DTB right now and it doesn't play blue.

Even if blue is the best color why should we sacrifice much of the formats enjoyability (casting Brainstorm namely) just so that all the colors are equally good? It's not like blue is breaking the format, it's as diverse as ever.

[DrJones]

Maverick is the DTB right now and it doesn't play blue.

Even if blue is the best color why should we sacrifice much of the formats enjoyability (casting Brainstorm namely) just so that all the colors are equally good? It's not like blue is breaking the format, it's as diverse as ever.Maverick seems DTB because there are a lot of different deck names for what's basically the same Blue Tempo strategy. Blue tempo decks outnumber Maverick's results by 3:1.

Moreover, blue tempo decks would beat Maverick if they weren't so busy trying to beat each other, because there are plenty of tools to crush Maverick.

[Julian23]

Moreover, blue tempo decks would beat Maverick if they weren't so busy trying to beat each other, because there are plenty of tools to crush Maverick.

There are plenty of tools to beat anything in Legacy, lol. If you want to beat Brainstorm play Chains of Mephistopheles. If you want to beat Tempo, play more lands. The later will result in your losing in long-drawn out games. That's the way it is and it's pretty good that way.

[Koby]

Maverick is the DTB right now and it doesn't play blue.

Even if blue is the best color why should we sacrifice much of the formats enjoyability (casting Brainstorm namely) just so that all the colors are equally good? It's not like blue is breaking the format, it's as diverse as ever.

No one said anything about removing (ban) Brainstorm. Is the format really diverse when we can essentially boil the format down to Blue tempo (UG/r Tempo, UW/x Stoneblade) and anti-Blue (Burn, Maverick)? (hurpy-derps need not apply - Dredge/Show and Tell)

[Snap_Keep]

What about combo (show and tell, tes/ant), Lands and Zenith/Explorer Rock?

I think there is diversity, but there will always be best decks. If g/w and u/w and rug weren't the best other decks would be.

EDIT - your ninja edit made me look foolish! Curse you!

[DrJones]

There are plenty of tools to beat anything in Legacy, lol. If you want to beat Brainstorm play Chains of Mephistopheles. If you want to beat Tempo, play more lands. The later will result in your losing in long-drawn out games. That's the way it is and it's pretty good that way.There aren't any tools to beat blue tempo. That's why it has been the best deck for so long. People have to settle with attacking the other parts of the deck which aren't the blue shell.

In fact, Cavern of Souls is 120$ a playset on ebay right now because it's the first playable card that truly hoses blue tempo's strategy, even if Drew Levin has written that article saying it's not so hot (hint: Drew Levin is wrong).

I'm going to buy a box of Avacyn Restored soon because I know that after the first printing of the set, the most expensive cards will become almost impossible to get from boosters. It happened with Living Death, it happened with Tarmogoyf, and it happened with Jace, The mind sculptor.

[oRen]

That's why it has been the best deck for so long.
How long does Delver exist?

Canadian got COMPLETELY outclassed by nearly every Survival variant and was mediocre to good and ridiculously hard to play in between the banning of Survival and the printing of Delver.

[DrJones]

How long does Delver exist?

Canadian got COMPLETELY outclassed by nearly every Survival variant and was mediocre to good and ridiculously hard to play in between the banning of Survival and the printing of Delver.Canadian got outclassed by other blue tempo and blue combo decks.

[Julian23]

Canadian ain't that hot against decks playing enough lands and big dudes, lol. You're so fixated on free counters being evil, it's not even funny. Still I lol. lol.

[Snap_Keep]

Did you play during Vengevine Survival? The top decks were not blue....

[DrJones]

Did you play during Vengevine Survival? The top decks were not blue....Yes I did. In fact, I probably have been playing this game for a longer time than you.

[Aggro_zombies]

No one said anything about removing (ban) Brainstorm. Is the format really diverse when we can essentially boil the format down to Blue tempo (UG/r Tempo, UW/x Stoneblade) and anti-Blue (Burn, Maverick)? (hurpy-derps need not apply - Dredge/Show and Tell)
To be fair, there have been very few periods during Legacy's history (since the lists were split, anyway) when the format wasn't reducible to best deck X, hate decks for deck X, and combo outliers. Most of Legacy's much-touted diversity lies in Tier Two decks with slim chances of winning large tournaments or relic decks that were obsoleted years ago but which people continue to play because they can't afford to stay abreast of price increases.

[oRen]

In fact, I probably have been playing this game for a longer time than you.
And yet your posts on this page of the thread are full of sh*t so none should care about that in this argumentation ... at least I do not.

Canadian losing to other tempo decks and to combo decks? The heck are you talking about? Resolved Survival on an even board was gg 90+% of the time for the Canadian player. Generally before Delver the lower thread density (9 creatures) made the deck easy to hate, easy to outclass with bigger dudes and therefore very hard to play PROPERLY. After the banning of Survival the position in the metagame of the deck got better but was always incredibly far from todays popularity/strength/whatever.

[Koby]

Did you play during Vengevine Survival? The top decks were not blue....

That's extremely humorous. The best performing VV Survival was infact, UG Survival.

[DrJones]

Everyone has its own interpretation of the data. Of course, some interpretations are more useful than others. I tend to study the data a lot because I want this game to be the best one and want all people to have fun, and I tend to write long and reasonable feedback messages to WotC with suggestions to improve Magic. And they tend to listen to it.

In fact, I remember I made a suggestion once telling them to reduce the number of playable counterspells in Standard so that draw 'n go style decks were no longer an option. You can blame me for that one. But hey! I told them that Counterspell was fair at UU. The main reason they went for 1UU was that at 2cc they had no room to print conditional countermagic.

So basically, Counterspell at UU means you get no other countermagic in standard.

[I am the brainwasher]

How long does Delver exist?

Canadian got COMPLETELY outclassed by nearly every Survival variant and was mediocre to good and ridiculously hard to play in between the banning of Survival and the printing of Delver.

This is so true.
I was damn happy to finally beeing able to play the deck after months of admiration during the Survival-aera and then that little fugger
http://static.manatalks.com/www/images/posts/it-really-was-a-mental-misstep-new-br-announcement-thumbnail.jpg
saw the break of day, I was not pleased.
Well, I guess Delver is some sort of Karma.

[Snap_Keep]

Yes I did. In fact, I probably have been playing this game for a longer time than you.

I had to think about whether or not I should reply to this or not. It certainly will not add to the discussion, but this doesn't feel like an especially serious, content heavy thread so I think it's ok.

Why do you think you have played magic longer than me? Would that make you better? I was being genuine and not taking in a shot at you in asking if you had played during Survival. I guess I'm just remembering when Goblins and Landstill were at the top of the heap.

[DrJones]

I had to think about whether or not I should reply to this or not. It certainly will not add to the discussion, but this doesn't feel like an especially serious, content heavy thread so I think it's ok.

Why do you think you have played magic longer than me? Would that make you better? I was being genuine and not taking in a shot at you in asking if you had played during Survival. I guess I'm just remembering when Goblins and Landstill were at the top of the heap.I just looked at my joining date and your joining date.

[Julian23]

Oh c'mon, join dates? I've been playing Magic for like almost 10 years longer than my join date. What kind of bullshit is this? Scrolling up, I realize you brought up this whole non-sense as a reply to a contentual argument. Should have better replied to that instead of talking shit about join dates. What's next? Post count? Avatar? Signature?

[Phoenix Ignition]

Oh c'mon, join dates? I've been playing Magic for like almost 10 years longer than my join date. What kind of bullshit is this? Scrolling up, I realize you brought up this whole non-sense as a reply to a contentual argument. Should have better replied to that instead of talking shit about join dates. What's next? Post count? Avatar? Signature?

Also, you beat him by one month. This means you are obviously more knowledgable about magic, better at playing it, and almost definitely better looking.

Playing magic longer is pretty much the only criteria I look at when determining how much I should listen to people.

[DrJones]

Now I feel terribly bad for having exhasperated you with my comment about joining dates. I'm very much sorry about it and I promise I won't make it again.

[Nihil Credo]

At least post counts are still a perfectly reliable metric.

[DragoFireheart]

The only reason I've been so vehemently supporting banning TM before it is because I think the current meta is fine. Could I be wrong? Of course I could be.

I don't think anything else should be banned. Things have been fine since Mental Misstep got banned. Maybe I'd like to see more non-blue decks as DTBs, but I think there's room for other decks to thrive and grow. FFS, Burn was a DTB!

[DrJones]

At least post counts are still a perfectly reliable metric.Heh. Now I feel like the weekly monster in the power rangers. :laugh:

[DragoFireheart]

Heh. Now I feel like the weekly monster in the power rangers. :laugh:

You are a Hydra.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Everyone has its own interpretation of the data. Of course, some interpretations are more useful than others. I tend to study the data a lot because I want this game to be the best one and want all people to have fun, and I tend to write long and reasonable feedback messages to WotC with suggestions to improve Magic. And they tend to listen to it.

In fact, I remember I made a suggestion once telling them to reduce the number of playable counterspells in Standard so that draw 'n go style decks were no longer an option. You can blame me for that one. But hey! I told them that Counterspell was fair at UU. The main reason they went for 1UU was that at 2cc they had no room to print conditional countermagic.

So basically, Counterspell at UU means you get no other countermagic in standard.

HAHAHAHAHA, thanks a lot you litterally just made me laugh out loud in the middle of a lecture.

Don't pat yourself on the back too hard. Standard is currently filled to the brim with playable counterspells and your long letters to WotC probably aren't rushed directly to R&D. It's cute that you think a team of professional game designers working on the most popular non-video-game in the world are taking your advice to heart and using it to shape the future of a multi-million enterprise run by an multinational corporation though. I bet Santa reads your letters too all the way in the North Pole. As someone who actually goes to school for software engineering hoping to one day be a game designer I don't know whether to find this humorous or insulting.

You should probably listen to me, I've been on this site since before Legacy was a format.

[DrJones]

You should probably listen to me, I've been on this site since before Legacy was a format.You don't know how much I wish you were already a game designer or a software engineer. Then you would be like me.

[Aggro_zombies]

You don't know how much I wish you were already a game designer or a software engineer. Then you would be like me.
You have a huge post count. You are therefore probably correct.

[DrJones]

I would have an even higher post count, but I prioritize quality over quantity.

[Kich867]

I would have an even higher post count, but I prioritize quality over quantity.

Clearly not.

[trivial_matters]

At least post counts are still a perfectly reliable metric.

Nicely done. >_>

[dontbiteitholmes]

You don't know how much I wish you were already a game designer or a software engineer. Then you would be like me.

Except that I already am designing a game, I'm just not doing it for money yet. Engineering school with a game design application domain = win. I'm coding my prototype demo right now for a final project, it's due in 5 weeks. Oh and I still don't like you.

I find your arrogance insulting. Way to take credit for the current Standard environment and the new Caverns land. Meanwhile you have an average of almost 60 posts a day for the past 5 years and I can't think of a single one I liked or agreed with in any way.

At this point I'm realizing you post 60 times a day here, and write long letter to WotC, and take credit for things that you most likely had nothing to do with. All the pieces to the puzzle just came together and it's all starting to make sense now.

[trivial_matters]

Except that I already am designing a game, I'm just not doing it for money yet. Engineering school with a game design application domain = win. I'm coding my prototype demo right now for a final project, it's due in 5 weeks. Oh and I still don't like you.

I find your arrogance insulting. Way to take credit for the current Standard environment and the new Caverns land. Meanwhile you have an average of almost 60 posts a day for the past 5 years and I can't think of a single one I liked or agreed with in any way.

At this point I'm realizing you post 60 times a day here, and write long letter to WotC, and take credit for things that you most likely had nothing to do with. All the pieces to the puzzle just came together and it's all starting to make sense now.

No, seriously?

This thread is getting better and better.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I'm convinced you were joking.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Is it Christmas already?

Fresh PM from Dr. Jones



Hasbro might be a multinational, but WotC listens to its player base
It's fine if you don't believe that I have influenced Mtg, but the truth is that R&D, Mark Gottlieb and Mark Rosewater actually do listen to player's feedback that you write at the end of the article.

Here are some of the actions they've taken after my feedback:

0. Dancing Scimitar and Serra Angel at uncommon.
1. Fight and Reach keywords.
2. Core sets no longer just reprints.
3. Boomerang effects no longer affect lands.
4. Limited number of counterspells per set.
5. Treefolk as the Green race in Lorwyn.
6. "doesn't untap" as the snake green mechanic in Kamigawa.
7. Shuffling opponent's deck no longer required if it was already shuffled, and it now counts as stalling in the tournament floor rules.
8. Commander as a supported format by WotC.
9. At the end of the Great Designer Search 2, they asked for the one person they should hire on twitter, I suggested THREE, and they hired exactly those three (it has a lot of merit, because I suggested people that weren't even finalists)
10. Several cards like "Harm's Way", "Hornet Queen", and the more recent "Cavern of Souls".

So, yes, they do listen to the players' feedback, and not just me, I know a lot of people that suggested something to wizards and they listened to them. WotC has even released cards aimed for a single person like Timbermare, which was an homage to the wife of a Magic columnist who had recently died. You are an ignorant if you think WotC desn't listen to their player base just because they were bought by a multinational, even more if what they suggest actually improves their game.

By the way, I've also suggested them a change to the legendary rule. I'm waiting for the next legendary set to know if they'll implement the idea or not. It's just a small tweak that solves many of the problems with the mechanic. I don't know if they'll do it, but if they do, I promise many people will like the change.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v679/Chill02/incredibly.jpg

[SpikeyMikey]

I have a fine-tuned eye for game balance

I had to stop reading right there while I choked damn near to death on incredulity so thick it was tangible. Your eye is about as finely-tuned as Cavius the Great's. The problem is that your understanding of the metagame of Magic is flawed. And by metagame, I don't mean the general field of decks, I mean the actual overarching strategy of the game as a whole.

Magic is like an arms race. If the other guy has swords, you bring a gun. If the other guy has guns, you bring tanks. If the other guy has tanks, you bring artillery. If they have artillery, you bring bombs. But bombs aren't that effective against a guy with a sword. He's a small target, he's hard to hit, and once he closes range, your bombs are useless. If you dump all your military budget into bombs and neglect some sort of defense against antique weaponry, your base is going to be overrun and you're going to lose the war. Control decks in Magic, because they go to the late game every time, run the biggest bombs they can manage, to make sure they've always got the bigger weapon in a firefight. But counterspells bridge the gap between small arms and bombs and act as a trump to opposing bombs. Because of this, counterspells are a necessity to any control deck in a format with a wide range of threats (which Legacy is and always will be). Otherwise, small aggro decks become bigger aggro decks as they seek to beat the other small aggro decks. Those decks turn into ramp decks as they seek to beat the bigger aggro decks in a manner fast enough to survive the small aggro decks. Combo decks, which are the ultimate ramp decks (again, in terms of overarching strategy, not in terms of normal classification), move to win as fast as possible, before any countermeasures can be brought against them. In short, all nuance is taken out of the format and you're left with a game where variance is the biggest factor in who wins.

You don't get all that, however. You see Force of Will as an oppressive card that stops you from playing whatever stupid bullshit it is that you want to play, not realizing that in a format this fast, control decks *have* to be able to tap out in order to deal with the raw power level of the format and that taking that from them will push the format to new, more aggressive heights. And whatever stupid bullshit it was that you wanted to play in the first place will be completely useless, because you're getting smoked by Belcher.

A game designer like you would be a very broke game designer, because you have no concept of how to balance effects.

[DrJones]

I don't understand why that pm makes the thread awesome. Unless you really don't believe that the "submit feedback button" at the bottom of the article in the main site it's absolutely useless. :really:

You know, there are certain creatures in the game, including frogmite that became frogs just because this one user named "the werefrog" asked for the return of the "frog" type to magic.

I'm friend with judges that have suggested changes to some cards so that they worked better with the rules, heck, Bounty of the Hunt puts +1/+1 counters again because I pointed out the original (and printed wording) had a combo with Triskelion the designers had overseen.

Some people started a campaign so that Sorrow's Path could be again a combo if you donated it to the opponent and tapped it repeatedly with Icy Manipulator.

You don't always get away with all the suggestions you make to WotC, but they do indeed read every mail you write to them.

[xfxf]

EDIT: Come to think of it, I'm convinced you were joking.

I don't want to take part in the duel in any way, just wanted to say I did the math as well and yes, it does come to something like 60 posts per day for the last 5 years. If he was joking, hell, he should better quit computer science and apply for Merrill Lynch right away. What an eye :laugh:

[dontbiteitholmes]

I had to stop reading right there while I choked damn near to death on incredulity so thick it was tangible. Your eye is about as finely-tuned as Cavius the Great's.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees that parallel.

[mini1337s]

Here are some of the actions they've taken after my feedback:
...
8. Commander as a supported format by WotC.
...
10. Several cards like "Harm's Way", "Hornet Queen", and the more recent "Cavern of Souls".
I'm actually dying right now.
PM of the year. All years.

[DrJones]

Spikemike, I invite you to ask Mark Rosewater what's his opinion on free countermagic. He has stated it several times on his columns. Go ahead and read them. I mean, I'm sure you'll think Mark Rosewater is a much better designer than me, you'll at least agree with whatever he says about the matter of counterspells that happen to be free. I won't stop you, I'm pretty sure he'll agree with you if you are right. He's reasonable and a pretty cool guy.

EDIT: Search also for what Mark Rosewater has to say about the importance of "shields down moments" and the need for all cards to have a countercard. Though I believe the main site will talk about them soon will all the hype around Cavern of Souls.

[Koby]

http://www.christycat.com/Superman/Derailed.gif

[Snap_Keep]

Well, I didn't start playing magic the day I joined this forum. I've been playing magic for more than a few weeks, and I'll leave it at that.

Is the assertion that people are making, about you being unhappy with Force of Will in legacy, well, accurate? If you don't think Force has a place in legacy then I'm a little sceptical of your experience and skill in the format, without putting too fine of a point on it.

Force of Will is very important in combating combo decks. It itself isn't an oppressive card, quite the opposite, it keeps us from being oppressed by powerful combo decks. If you want to ban Force, sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, I haven't actually seen you say this, then you would likely have to ban LED. At that point I think many players would be upset by not being able to play a huge combo archetype or be being able to play with Force of Will. I don't imagine I'm making a very good first impression by getting into this sort of argument so soon after joining, so I apologize for the faux pas.

I really like the analogy of legacy as an arms race.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Spikemike, I invite you to ask Mark Rosewater what's his opinion on free countermagic. He has stated it several times on his columns. Go ahead and read them. I mean, I'm sure you'll think Mark Rosewater is a much better designer than me, you'll at least agree with whatever he says about the matter of counterspells that happen to be free. I won't stop you, I'm pretty sure he'll agree with you if you are right. He's reasonable and a pretty cool guy.

I'll save you the time, he is against free counterspells that can be used by any color not the overall idea of counterspells that don't cost mana.

[SpikeyMikey]

Spikemike, I invite you to ask Mark Rosewater what's his opinion on free countermagic. He has stated it several times on his columns. Go ahead and read them. I mean, I'm sure you'll think Mark Rosewater is a much better designer than me, you'll at least agree with whatever he says about the matter of counterspells that happen to be free. I won't stop you, I'm pretty sure he'll agree with you if you are right. He's reasonable and a pretty cool guy.

You're choosing the wrong figurehead for backing. The guy's an idiot. It's a tough call as to who has done more harm to the game over the years, him or Tom LaPille. On one hand, LaPille banned MT based on a handful of games played in the MTGO tournament practice room and proclaimed Great Sable Stag the answer to blue. On the other, Maro was design and development for Urza's and lead design for Mirrodin, showing that his eye for card power levels is almos as keen as yours. He's also the one who feels that flavor is as important as gameplay, which has lead to such scintillating examples of positive change as "Defender" instead of "Wall" and the temporary moratorium on Merfolk as a creature type (obviously they've started printing them again, but they stopped printing new fish for a while because it didn't make any "sense" as to how they could attack players on land...). Oh yes, he's also the genius behind flip cards, because that mechanic has added so much to the game. Honestly, I'm sure if I wanted to dig, I could find a few hundred other examples of why he's a drooling moron, but frankly, it's not worth the effort.

Edit: Oh, and Snap, welcome to the forums. I'm not usually this much of an asshole (I let IBA cover that), but I'm in a particularly cranky mood tonight.

DrJones has been on a crusade to get Force banned for years. That quote he's got sigged? That sums up his views on the subject. He has a slightly inflated sense of self-importance, but then again, this IS a MtG forums, I think everyone here (minus the lurkers!), myself included, has that same problem.

[mini1337s]

You're choosing the wrong figurehead for backing. The guy's an idiot. It's a tough call as to who has done more harm to the game over the years, him or Tom LaPille. On one hand, LaPille banned MT based on a handful of games played in the MTGO tournament practice room and proclaimed Great Sable Stag the answer to blue. On the other, Maro was design and development for Urza's and lead design for Mirrodin, showing that his eye for card power levels is almos as keen as yours. He's also the one who feels that flavor is as important as gameplay, which has lead to such scintillating examples of positive change as "Defender" instead of "Wall" and the temporary moratorium on Merfolk as a creature type (obviously they've started printing them again, but they stopped printing new fish for a while because it didn't make any "sense" as to how they could attack players on land...). Oh yes, he's also the genius behind flip cards, because that mechanic has added so much to the game. Honestly, I'm sure if I wanted to dig, I could find a few hundred other examples of why he's a drooling moron, but frankly, it's not worth the effort.

Didn't Lapille also suggest Overgrown Battlement was the card between Infect being unplayable and a Tier 1 deck?

[DrJones]

Well, I didn't start playing magic the day I joined this forum. I've been playing magic for more than a few weeks, and I'll leave it at that.

Is the assertion that people are making, about you being unhappy with Force of Will in legacy, well, accurate? If you don't think Force has a place in legacy then I'm a little sceptical of your experience and skill in the format, without putting too fine of a point on it.

Force of Will is very important in combating combo decks. It itself isn't an oppressive card, quite the opposite, it keeps us from being oppressed by powerful combo decks. If you want to ban Force, sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, I haven't actually seen you say this, then you would likely have to ban LED. At that point I think many players would be upset by not being able to play a huge combo archetype or be being able to play with Force of Will. I don't imagine I'm making a very good first impression by getting into this sort of argument so soon after joining, so I apologize for the faux pas.Yes, I believe Magic as a whole is better without FoW, and I've also said that it probably means LED would need to go. But I've also said plenty of times that just looking at the times WotC has banned a card in magic, 90% of the time was from a combo deck packing FoW itself to make the combo too difficult to stop for blue decks, and outright impossible to counter for nonblue decks. The only combo decks FoW stops is storm, and then you find R&D actually wants storm to be playable to be the nemesis of the blue FoW decks.

Actually, what it happens at that point is that people agree with what I say, but then conclude that banning FoW or brainstorm would make the format unfun and they would no longer want to play legacy. I disagree because people don't play FoW in Magic Online Classic and the format is healthier than this meta (then again, they don't play LED either, both cards are pretty expensive for most players to own) and not as blue centric as Paper Legacy.

[SpikeyMikey]

Didn't Lapille also suggest Overgrown Battlement was the card between Infect being unplayable and a Tier 1 deck?

I do remember him saying that infect was a tier 1 deck in the FFL testing. Honestly, the number of dumb things the man said was legion. Thank god that spot opened up in D&D and he jumped ship.

[rxavage]

Reserved for future delusional and self validating post.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Yes, I believe Magic as a whole is better without FoW, and I've also said that it probably means LED would need to go. But I've also said plenty of times that just looking at the times WotC has banned a card in magic, 90% of the time was from a combo deck packing FoW itself to make the combo too difficult to stop for blue decks, and outright impossible to counter for nonblue decks. The only combo decks FoW stops is storm, and then you find R&D actually wants storm to be playable to be the nemesis of the blue FoW decks.

Actually, what it happens at that point is that people agree with this point, but then say that banning FoW or brainstorm would make the format unfun and people will no longer play legacy. I disagree because people don't play FoW in Magic Online Classic and the format is healthier than this meta (then again, they don't play LED either, both cards are pretty expensive for most players to own) and not as blue centric as Paper Legacy.

Who agrees with that point? 90% of the cards are not banned because they were broke with Force of Will backup, that's just a made up statistic. You continue to impress me with your lack of knowledge across multiple areas of the game of Magic. If that was true at all we would currently all be getting destroyed by combo decks with Pact of Negation, which is a free Force of Will against blue decks that only Combo decks can play reliably with less of a drawback.

Also LOL at MTGO Classic. Yeah, it blew my mind when I heard you say no one plays Force of Will in Classic. How could that be true I thought? What about combo, they would just get destroyed? So I googled MTGO Classic decks to look into that claim. First webpage I found...

Card Usage - 2012 Season
1. Force of Will
2. Leyline of the Void

You are delusional and I'm pretty sure no one agrees with you.

[Snap_Keep]

Edit: Oh, and Snap, welcome to the forums. I'm not usually this much of an asshole (I let IBA cover that), but I'm in a particularly cranky mood tonight.

DrJones has been on a crusade to get Force banned for years. That quote he's got sigged? That sums up his views on the subject. He has a slightly inflated sense of self-importance, but then again, this IS a MtG forums, I think everyone here (minus the lurkers!), myself included, has that same problem.

Thank you for the welcome. I'm very much the same way, I have to catch myself before I say something arrogant or make myself look foolish. It's a 24 hour job haha


Yes, I believe Magic as a whole is better without FoW, and I've also said that it probably means LED would need to go. But I've also said plenty of times that just looking at the times WotC has banned a card in magic, 90% of the time was from a combo deck packing FoW itself to make the combo too difficult to stop for blue decks, and outright impossible to counter for nonblue decks. The only combo decks FoW stops is storm, and then you find R&D actually wants storm to be playable to be the nemesis of the blue FoW decks.

Actually, what it happens at that point is that people agree with this point, but then say that banning FoW or brainstorm would make the format unfun and people will no longer play legacy. I disagree because people don't play FoW in Magic Online Classic and the format is healthier than this meta (then again, they don't play LED either, both cards are pretty expensive for most players to own) and not as blue centric as Paper Legacy.

Well, I'd like to continue this discussion, but maybe this would be more appropriate in the B&R thread? I'm not sure... but I had lurked for a bit before joining, and noticed there is active moderation, which is part of what attracted to me to this community. I think your suggestion that legacy online is quite different from paper legacy is interesting, I have no exposure to, or experience with legacy on modo. What are the top decks on modo for legacy? I guess what the argument boils down to is would the meta be healthier without LED driven combo and Force of Will? I guess it's important to define our terms and decide what "healthy" means here. I would suggest a healthy meta entails all 3 main archetypes are represented and that all colors see at least some play. This is my shoot from the hip definition and should likely be added to and refined. Blue has always had an important place in eternal formats, it hasn't always been the best, but it's always been at least good. Part of what attracts people to legacy, I think is that you get to play with powerful, older blue cards. I'm also not sure that banning LED along with FoW would be enough to keep use from being overwrought with combo decks, though. I feel like Show and Tell based combo and Past in Flames / Rituals based combo would become much stronger without Force / LED in the format.

[Aggro_zombies]

I do remember him saying that infect was a tier 1 deck in the FFL testing. Honestly, the number of dumb things the man said was legion. Thank god that spot opened up in D&D and he jumped ship.
To be fair, they admitted to completely missing Valakut in FFL testing, so maybe infect was tier one.

[DrJones]

Snap_keep, I'm sorry because you really are well-meaning and looking for intelligent discussion, but this thread is simply not the right place for it, at least at this moment. Plus, I have had this discussion at least ten times already on the forums and it always ends in a flame-fest. Some users intentionally bring the FoW point up to pick a fight with me. Probably because I'm hurting some belief that is very important for them. I've noticed that the more reasons I give and the more polite I am, the worse the reaction becomes. So I actually prefer them not to take me seriously and mock me, which is why I created this signature. That way, I'm the crazy one that nobody should listen to about magic theory, and they can feel better. :laugh:

I suggest never to bring up any of the points on Julian's signature, because otherwise you'll create the kind of hysteria that I brought to this thread and it will follow you for years to come. It doesn't mean they are right, but they are very vocal about their opinions.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Snap_keep, I'm sorry because you really are well-meaning and looking for intelligent discussion, but this thread is simply not the right place for it, at least at this moment. Plus, I have had this discussion at least ten times already on the forums and it always ends in a flame-fest. Some users intentionally bring the FoW point up to pick a fight with me. Probably because I'm hurting some belief that is very important for them. I've noticed that the more reasons I give and the more polite I am, the worse the reaction becomes. So I actually prefer them not to take me seriously and mock me, which is why I created this signature. That way, I'm the crazy one that nobody should listen to about magic theory, and they can feel better. :laugh:

I suggest never to bring up any of the points on Julian's signature, because otherwise you'll create the kind of hysteria that I brought to this thread and it will follow you for years to come. It doesn't mean they are right, but they are very vocal about their opinions.

There is no intelligent discussion to be had in terms of banning FoW. I'll leave it to everyone to determine who has a firmer grasp on reality, Dr. Jones or everyone else on these boards who disagrees with him. This is the typical end of these discussions. Dr. Jones attempts to debate reasons why Force of Will needs to be banned using a bunch of made up arguments. Someone disproves every statement he makes like I did here, then instead of addressing how every point he just tried to make just got completely exposed as false, then he goes into smug satisfaction mode, because obviously he is smart enough to see that Force of Will is broken even when literally everyone else I've ever met who plays Legacy disagrees.

Also who is very vocal about their opinions. You have 10 times as many posts as everyone else here put together...

[Phoenix Ignition]

Dammit internet forums. I get all excited that someone is definitively proven wrong and the person just completely ignores it and keeps spewing garbage.


I disagree because people don't play FoW in Magic Online Classic and the format is healthier than this meta (then again, they don't play LED either, both cards are pretty expensive for most players to own) and not as blue centric as Paper Legacy.




Card Usage - 2012 Season
1. Force of Will
2. Leyline of the Void
*sigh*

[(nameless one)]

I was right...


WTF Legacy Players?!?!,!


SERIOUSLY, WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT?!?!

Are you all retarded.

I'm sorry mods... This is an evidence that you guys are leaking stupid and smearing it all over the format. Can anyone lock this?!?!?

And pin it as a reminder of how stupid this has become.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I was right...


WTF Legacy Players?!?!,!


SERIOUSLY, WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT?!?!

It's basically this:

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/8/13/4ce62a6f-0307-426b-a467-47ffc9928a43.gif

[dontbiteitholmes]

I was right...


WTF Legacy Players?!?!,!


SERIOUSLY, WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT?!?!

Are you all retarded.

I'm sorry mods... This is an evidence that you guys are leaking stupid and smearing it all over the format. Can anyone lock this?!?!?

And pin it as a reminder of how stupid this has become.

Haha, this thread started out stupid, we just took it to it's logical conclusion. I had fun I don't know about everyone else. I think this thread led the mods to lock the multiple threads all complaining about Mastery and confine it to the B&R thread so mission accomplished anyways. I don't feel bad derailing a thread that basically started out off topic, it's just when bullshit spills into the real threads and derails real format discussion that it gets annoying.

[joemauer]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v679/Chill02/incredibly.jpg

Skimming along this is the only response I actually read.

Well worth my time. Thank you dontbiteitholmes.

[KevinTrudeau]

How the fuck does DrJones have 107,410 posts?

[azador]

One of the mods probably changed it to troll everyone.

[Nihil Credo]

How the fuck does DrJones have 107,410 posts?He posts a lot.

--------------------

Despite having provided a good deal of amusement, and by doing so having been allowed to live wayyyy longer than something with a fucking [RANT] tag in the title deserved, the time has come to pull the plug on this thread.

Go home and be productive or whatever other disgusting fetishes you guys have.