Miracle Whip

[Cire]

“We're Not For Everyone!”

How true. This deck was designed as a joke after witnessing all the Miracle cards about to be released. So I sleeved up some random cards, had the spoiler in front of me and played against some decks.... and :eek:.

Noted, this deck can't beet combo, or dredge, or burn. But it win's against any deck that takes it to the mid game or late game. Basically any deck that uses creatures and doesn't win on the 3 turn... and this is not an optimized list. IBA already noted that it might be better to remove red, and throw in FOW.

But here is the original list.

- Miracle Cards
4 Banishing Stroke
4 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
4 Temporal Mastery
4 Devastating Tide
4 Fade Away
4 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Thunderous Wrath

-Cards to put Miracle cards from your hand back on top of your library.
4 Brainstorm
4 ScrollRack

-Lands
3 U/R Fetch
3 R/W Fetch
3 U/W Fetch
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Island

----

How does the deck work? Pretty obvious. You simply draw cards and immediately play them for their miracle cost. A lot of the Mircale cards are just really cheap removal, and by a lot, I mean

4 Banishing Stroke
4 Terminus
4 Devastating Tide
4 Fade Away
4 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Thunderous Wrath

24 cards, that simply slow your opponent down in various way.

Temporal mastery just gets you another turn, and if you already have token out, it's a random win. Bonfire and and Wrath also damage your opponent. Brainstorm and Scroll Rack are just their to get miracle cards in your hand, back into play so to speak. And Entreat the Angels is your win con. You simply wait long enough you keep digging with scroll rack and you'll get it eventually - till then you're keeping the opposing board clear of threats.

----

Again the deck is pretty fragile, and in a rough stage obviously, because the cards haven't even been released yet! But I think this is a completely viable way to use the miracle mechanic. Miracle is based in luck way to much, but when you fill the deck with Miracles, you're left with severely undercosted effects... turn after turn. More than half the deck is composed of miracles!


------

Current List designed by tombstalker (minor change of -1 flex spot +1 Noxious revival)

Plainswalkers 4
4 jace, the mind sculptor

Miracles 8
4 terminus
4 entreat the angels

Permission 8
4 force of will
4 spell pierce

Removal 4
4 swords to plowshares

Draw 14
4 brainstorm
3 portent*
3 senseis divining top
4 noxious revival

Lands 22
4 mishras factory
4 flooded strand
4 misty rainforest
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
3 island
1 plains

*italicized cards are flex spots

[(nameless one)]

If you're gonna run W/R, would you consider Miracle Decree (the one that puts Angels on the field)?

[tsabo_tavoc]

If you're gonna run W/R, would you consider Miracle Decree (the one that puts Angels on the field)?

There is a playset in his list.

Cutting red for 4 FOW and 4 Jace could work. You can squeeze in some Mishra's Factory for early defense.

[(nameless one)]

There is a playset in his list.

Cutting red for 4 FOW and 4 Jace could work. You can squeeze in some Mishra's Factory for early defense.

True. For some reason, the name slipped through me.

Which one is Devastating Tide and Fade Away?

[andrewlb]

Please name for me a deck that you would want to animate your factory against on turn two as a blocker

[(nameless one)]

Please name for me a deck that you would want to animate your factory against on turn two as a blocker

Landstill pilots used to do this to block a turn 1 Goblin Lackey. Though that is the last line of defense after FoW and StP.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Please name for me a deck that you would want to animate your factory against on turn two as a blocker

Goblins, RDW, what's your point? 'Early' means before your real win conditions (Angel, Jace) come down.


True. For some reason, the name slipped through me.

Which one is Devastating Tide and Fade Away?

http://mtgsalvation.com/avacyn-restored-spoiler.html

a bounce all at 1U and a bounce to library top at U.

[Koby]

Need more Whipflare and Whippoorwill.

[Cire]

There is not need to block early threats, because Devastating Tide, Terminus, and Bonfire of the Damned all act as mass removal (20% just to draw into it) and Wrath, Fade away, and Banishing Stroke act as targeted removal (20% just to draw into it). So to take care of early threats this deck has more than enough removal. The real issue this deck has is against decks that win before turn 3.

Removing Red for Fow seems nice, but playing with bonfire and wrath give you reach, and additional removal. The combo match up will never be favorable - ever. So i'm willing to just ignore it. What deck do we need FOW against otherwise? Decks with gaddock teeg? In that case STP type removal would be better than FOW

@Koby: Lol, but while the deck does look silly, I would appreciate actual critiques.....

[Koby]

Ok fine - is there a way to consistently draw cards during your opponent's turn? That would improve the number of Miracle triggers over the course of the game.

Mikokoro perhaps?

[tsabo_tavoc]

There is not need to block early threats, because Devastating Tide, Terminus, and Bonfire of the Damned all act as mass removal (20% just to draw into it) and Wrath, Fade away, and Banishing Stroke act as targeted removal (20% just to draw into it). So to take care of early threats this deck has more than enough removal. The real issue this deck has is against decks that win before turn 3.

Removing Red for Fow seems nice, but playing with bonfire and wrath give you reach, and additional removal. The combo match up will never be favorable - ever. So i'm willing to just ignore it. What deck do we need FOW against otherwise? Decks with gaddock teeg? In that case STP type removal would be better than FOW.

If the opponent plays wise, he will counter your Brainstorm/Scroll Rack, or your lone win condition Angels. FOW helps your key spell to resolve. Jace offers topdeck manipulation and win condition in one card.

I only advocate manland in UW build, because the 8 red cards being cut are all removals.

[Greenpoe]

Dream Cache is worthy of consideration, especially when those Brainstorms and Scroll Racks become #1 targets for counters.



Please name for me a deck that you would want to animate your factory against on turn two as a blocker
Don't forget you can tap+pump Mishra to a 3/3 on the defense, or a 4/4 with two factories out, etc. A 3/3 on the defense is good vs. Goblin Guide, Confidant, etc.

[Cire]

Trying to increase percentage of miracle triggers is a good instinct but you have to understand how the deck works. The only card that really does any work in the 1st 3 turns is brainstorm. The deck for the rest of those turns (without brainstorm to set up anything), just hopes to mise into a miracle and hold off any initial rush. Then once scroll rack hits play, then you control the game in it's entirety. Your cards are too cheap and powerful. So by turn 4 you would have naturally drew into 2 miracles... not counting temporal mastery which just gives you an extra draw until you have angels out: this basically means you drew into 2 removal or mass removal spells. After turn 4 you use brainstorm or scroll rack to set up removal(or burn) and entreat the angels. And then win.

Basically what I'm trying to say is the deck really doesn't need any improvement after the third turn. Maybe personal tutor, for more specific effects or draw/library manipulation - but that's about it. The actual problematic time are those initial 3 turns. Mikokoro comes into play to late to help.... it comes out turn 3, ties up all your mana, and you won't have enough to miracle. Thus it only really helps during a part of the game this deck doesn't need much help in.

---

U/W is probably the right way to go, but I would much rather have Wrath than fade away, so maybe U/W/ splash for red? (You're right that Fow would be used for brainstorm/rack)

Additional consideration: Commandeer, FOW, Chrome Mox, for all the miracle cards that are dead in your hand?

----

Also I find the flavor text of Mise appropriate for Miracle:

mise 'miz v alter. of might as well (1997) 1: to win when you don't deserve to 2: to top-deck the "tings" you need 3: to be rewarded by an opponent's bad luck 4: to coin a phrase that spreads through the tournament scene like wildfire 5: to fling a monkey 6: to split firewood using a sharp instrument 7: To burn

[Greenpoe]

Thunderous Wrath would probably be just better off as Swords to Plowshares, since you won't be targeting your opponent all that often, it isn't dead in hand, you can choose when you want to cast it, etc.

[rufus]

Miracle costs notwithstanding, I'm not sure that paying X mana for X damage is viable outside of ramping combos in legacy.

The concept is pretty obvious, though I wanted to call this deck "Miracle Max" myself.

Some thoughts:

Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal and Simian Spirit Guide might fit well into a deck that really wants to have 2 mana to kick off those miracle cards. Odds to have something to feed the mox are also pretty good. (There is some negative synergy with Devastating Tide and Chome Mox, but such is life.)

Alternative deck stacking cards:
Portent - Draw a card at the beginning of the next turn's upkeep means you can set up miracles on the other player's turn. Normally Ponder would be better, but if the game plan is miracles. This can also help find early land drops.
Ponder - not sure how it compares to portent.
Sensei's Divining Top
Lim-Dul's Vault
Diabolic Vision
Proteus Staff if you're running a man-land plan this can set up stupid things.

Off-turn draw cards that can help maximise your miracle rate.
Abeyance
Manamorphose
Opt
Portent (mentioned above)
Fire//Ice
Predict
Remand
Street Wraith

Possible Stalling/Anti-combo cards:
Orim's Chant
Silence

Odds & Ends:
Isochron Scepter - utility instants with this can really improve your chance to miracle. It may also improve the payoff for hitting temporal mastery.

[Oiolosse]

Mana Severance as a two of or maybe three off seems worth the test.

[Koby]

oooooo Portent is a really cool idea. Nice find rufus.

[Cire]

Rufus you bring up a good point with Bonfire of the damned... it's only good if you draw it and have 3 mana out already and then its really a pyroclasm, that you can't take advantage of.

-4 Bonfire of the damned
+4 Portent (nice find btw)
(change mana base accordingly)

Additionally Greenpoe is right that Thunderous Wrath can easily be replaced, since our win condition is an army of angels, and the 5 damage to the dome, isn't all that helpful. But instead of replacing it with STP, ill replace it with FOW, which is basically removal, and blue miracles in the hand aren't terrible to pitch. Which brings me to Chrome mox, which increases our chance of hitting early miracles....

so U/W list so far:

- Miracle Cards
4 Banishing Stroke
4 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
4 Temporal Mastery
4 Devastating Tide
4 Fade Away

-Other
4 Brainstorm
4 ScrollRack
4 Chrome Mox
4 Force of Will
4 Portent

-Lands
4 U/W Fetch
4 Tundra
4 Plains
4 Island


Mana Severance as a two of or maybe three off seems worth the test.

interesting idea!

[Koby]

I woudl still consider Jace TMS in this deck. Being able to win outside the combat step might become relevant with all the sweepers you are running.

[Tombstalker]

Heres something ive been brewing and now maybe ill have to dust off those portents..

Creatures 4
4 snapcaster mage

Plainswalkers 4
3 jace the mindsculptor
1 elspeth knight errant

Miracles 12
4 temporal mastery
4 terminus
4 banishing stroke

Permission 4
4 force of will

Draw 14
4 brainstorm
4 careful study
4 noxious revival
2 senseis divining top

Lands 22
4 mishras factory
4 flooded strand
4 misty rainforest
4 tundra
4 island
2 plains

This one doesnt use angels as wincons and its just wip at this point. Any ideas?

[HPB_Eggo]

I'm fairly certain this deck would just fold to other control decks, assuming they're not based mostly on permanents, and all of these have better match-ups against your problematic match-ups.

At least IMO, you probably want to start with an old Countertop/Landstill shell and add in things like Terminus. Imagine Landstill running three copies of a one mana, slightly better version of WoG? It shores up all the problems with those lists, i.e. the fact that they lose to fast aggro or aggro-control.

Eh. Probably not a direction you want to go, but it seems like it would be an overall better deck.

[Nihil Credo]

Miracle isn't a tribal mechanic and "play a bunch of spells that have nothing in common besides being undercosted" isn't a strategic plan.

Tombstalker at least is moving in the right direction.

[Cire]

Miracle isn't a tribal mechanic and "play a bunch of spells that have nothing in common besides being undercosted" isn't a strategic plan.

Tombstalker at least is moving in the right direction.

Good to know we're moving in the right direction. That's what this sub forum is all about. The thing though in my original conception its not just that they were all undercosted....but that they were all virtually removal. Thus the initial conception was cheap removal control.

@Tombstalker: How could i forget about Noxious revival! And Top! Nilil credo was completely right in that i was so drawn up in the cool of Miracle i forgot about those cards.

Just some things. Why careful study? And why snapcaster mage? Snapcaster is more of a tempo card, I can see how it would be cool to get a terminus 3 turns in a row with noxious and snapcaster, but is it really needed in a control build?

@HPB_Eggo: U/W control? Sure. Countertop? I think is valueless in this deck and format especially with the cavern of souls. Standstill? Unlike other control decks this deck wants to control whats on top of its library not necessarily draw cards. Also unlike standstill, it can't wait around and wait for manlands...

Current list. (Devastating tide and fade away were not that good i'm afraid, didn't really slow them down all that much)

- Miracle Cards
4 Banishing Stroke
4 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
4 Temporal Mastery

-Other
4 Brainstorm
4 Chrome Mox
4 Force of Will
4 Portent
4 Noxious Revival
3 ScrollRack
3 Sensie's divining top
2 Jace, TMS

-Lands
4 U/W Fetch
4 Tundra
4 Plains
4 Island

[Tombstalker]

Just some things. Why careful study? And why snapcaster mage? Snapcaster is more of a tempo card, I can see how it would be cool to get a terminus 3 turns in a row with noxious and snapcaster, but is it really needed in a control build?

Careful study cycles miracles that might build up in hand and digs (makes the yard a virtual magical christmas land). Like you say snapcaster snaps back brainstorm/study/revival allowing for up to 8 of each miracle barring walk (exiled) or 'just' 8 brainstorms. Sure it may be overkill but why not wrath for W each turn vs creature decks? This decks wincons are plainswalkers and manlands.

Edit- list updated slightly..

[Cire]

Careful study cycles miracles that might build up in hand and digs (makes the yard a virtual magical christmas land). Like you say snapcaster snaps back brainstorm/study/revival allowing for up to 8 of each miracle barring walk (exiled) or 'just' 8 brainstorms. Sure it may be overkill but why not wrath for W each turn vs creature decks? This decks wincons are plainswalkers and manlands.

Edit- list updated slightly..

Sure, i gotcha, but i think you're underestimating Entreat the angles. Not only that running them allows you to run chrome mox without any real fear. I think they are much more effective than man lands.

[Tombstalker]

I think your right I just havent found the right wincon that allows for terminus whenever we feel like it. Maybe entreat is ok even with the full compliment of terminus? idk. Also any combination of SCM, revival and brainstorm lets us cast miracles from the yard during opponents turn. This deck really needs to be called magical christmas land.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Here's my list;

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Halimar Depths
4 Mishra's Factory

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Condescend

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Judge Unworthy

4 ~Fade Away
4 Terminus
3 Entreat the Angels

I think this is a lot less greedy than the OP, but at the same time it's a solid UW control list of days past with about half a gallon of diesel directly injected into its veins. Nothing too cute or fancy, just solid and undercosted cards mixed with a stream of Miracle enablers and powerful Miracle effects.

It also has answer to Gaddock Teeg or God forbid Maralen of the Mornsong.

[Cire]

Yeah i was being greedy with the OP, ill put up a U/W proper list as soon as well settle on a decent one. You can't fault me for falling in love with the Miracles.

@IBA: Halimar Depths is a great find!

Judge unworthy,Condenscend is cool, but i think that is being cutsey (yeah I know i'm not one to talk, but I have my serious hat on) I would in your list replace both of them with Noxious revival. Fade away in my minimal testing was great, but in no way justifying running 4 of them over Terminus!

Also whats this fascination with manlands in UW control? I would rather play more draw/library manipulation for my miracles...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The manlands are just there to be a compact kill condition. The list is tight with utility/Miracle enablers/Miracle bombs, so you want to get dual use out of cards if able. Hence Halimar Depths and Factory, as well as Condescend and Judge Unworthy.

[Cire]

are the dual purposes of Judge Unworthy/Condenscend/Manlands really worth having more miracles or snap casters of Scroll rack or even portent? I think not. At least consider Noxious revival.

Did you run the list and decide against temporal mastery? IMO it has never been a bad card for me, at no time did i have it did i wish it was another non-miracle card...did i ever wish it was another miracle card? Yes. All the time..

[Tombstalker]

IBA- cant believe i didnt consider teeg. Maybe stp needs to be a full set. I think entreat the angels would be good in my build as a 2-of since revival + SCM can recur any of the wincons. Ive always wanted to play halimar depths, maybe this is the time.

Also what do you guys think of calling this magical christmas land? Lol. Its brazen but pretty accurate if the deck actually turns into something good.

[Cire]

IBA- cant believe i didnt consider teeg. Maybe stp needs to be a full set. I think entreat the angels would be good in my build as a 2-of since revival + SCM can recur any of the wincons. Ive always wanted to play halimar depths, maybe this is the time.

Also what do you guys think of calling this magical christmas land? Lol. Its brazen but pretty accurate if the deck actually turns into something good.

But I like Miracle Whip :cry:

And im trying to reconcile Iba's and Tombstalkers lists...

here is what I have


Miracle Whip

Miracles - 14
4 Terminus
4 banishing stroke
4 Fade Away
2 Entreat the Angels

Other - 24
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 STP
3 jace the mindsculptor
3 senseis divining top
3 snapcaster mage
3 noxious revival

Lands 22
4 flooded strand
4 misty rainforest
4 tundra
4 island
4 Halimar Depths
2 plains

-- just realized i didn't so much reconcile the lists as much as just update Tombstalkers.... sorry IBA... I need to test the random utility scry effects

[Tombstalker]

Miracle whip is cool. I noticed you guys arent including timewalk 2.0 what gives? Swinging twice with angel tokens could be game over real quick. Also i was thinking horizon canopy might be good.

[Cire]

Temporal mastery was really over hyped. Here is why... In this deck it's simply a free draw, and another chance to hopefully draw into a miracle. Good? Yes! But not good enough. THe only time it wins games is when you already have angels out or Jace. And when that's happening... you're winning already. It's a win-more card.

As I said: IMO it has never been a bad card for me, at no time did i have it did i wish it was another non-miracle card...did i ever wish it was another miracle card? Yes. All the time... So the question you ask is not what miracle cards to replace but which non-miricle cards.... and right now i don't know..

[Tombstalker]

OK after further thought heres my last revision until I get off my ass and proxy this thing.

Creatures
4 snapcaster mage

Miracles
4 terminus
3 entreat the angels
2 temporal mastery

Spells
3 jace the mindsculptor
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
4 careful study
3 noxious revival
3 senseis divining top

Lands 22
4 mishras factory
4 flooded strand
4 misty rainforest
4 tundra
4 island
2 plains

Factories need to stay to deal with PWs and what IBA said (TIBA? haha). Mastery still makes the cut IMO as a 2-of because in this build it can be pitched to the grave until its needed as an 'I win' button. Everything in the deck can either be snapped back or revival'd back which is pretty sick making the grave a miracleyard. Because of this I wonder if entreat and jace can drop to 2 each to make room for more..stuff? IDK but im gonna sleeve it up shortly.

Edit- check this random scenario...sneak show drops emrakul t2 otd. Terminus in the grave from study, on 2 lands revivals terminus brainstorms it wipes emrakul. On 2 lands. During their turn.

[Cire]

Ok when you sleeve up though try to pay attention to what other miracle cards you'd rather have mastery be.

[Tombstalker]

I definately will. In a control shell mastery seems the more powerful option, in theory but it could become fade away instead.

[Tombstalker]

Sorry for the double post. So I gold fished some hands with above list. Downside us the deck is slow and needs more threats, but I'm not a control player so maybe this is normal idk. Upside is it simply will crush any creature based strategy. Also I have to say revival is nuts, why isn't stoneblade maindecking this? Card disadvantage doesn't even matter. Its pretty much a free scm effect. Fuck durdling with top deck miracles just put what u want in the yard and get it whenever you want. Seriously revival and scm + mill effect is insane here bringing back lands, jace, terminus, timewalk whatever. Feels like my build will auto lose to combo though.
Dropped 1 scm for 4th revival.

[Cire]

Sorry for the double post. So I gold fished some hands with above list. Downside us the deck is slow and needs more threats, but I'm not a control player so maybe this is normal idk. Upside is it simply will crush any creature based strategy. Also I have to say revival is nuts, why isn't stoneblade maindecking this? Card disadvantage doesn't even matter. Its pretty much a free scm effect. Fuck durdling with top deck miracles just put what u want in the yard and get it whenever you want. Seriously revival and scm + mill effect is insane here bringing back lands, jace, terminus, timewalk whatever. Feels like my build will auto lose to combo though.
Dropped 1 scm for 4th revival.

Yeah this deck loses to combo, dredge, burn but i thought i mentioned that early on. And even the original list beats mid range creature based decks the U/W ones are just more consistent.

Concerning my list, I decided to put in man lands and follow your general advice, but i don't know what to take out. I feel like this deck needs around 20 lands to operate: I will treat chrome mox, manlands, and Halimar depths as 1/2 a mana source...

So in my list

+4 Mishra's factory
+2 Chrome mox
-2 Fade Away
-2 Halimar Depths
-1 Island
-1 JTMS

Also I agree

+1 Noxious revival
-1 Snapcaster mage

The reason i added chrome mox, is too speed up the deck - which you must admit is too slow for the initial rush. This way your mana won't be tied up to just miracle all day long - you can actually lay down your other cards and brainstorm/top/etc

[Mystical_Jackass]

Reforge the Soul should be in the list. :1::r:--Wheel of Fortune sounds too good to pass up, play out your hand and counter everything, replenish your hand and worst case scenario ou have snapcaster target to discard.

[Tombstalker]

I agree it could use either some sort of acceleration or earlier threats. Also after playtesting it I dropped mastery. It could be considered acceleration so maybe this is wrong idk. I do know that this deck can easily cast 6+ wraths a game, basically every turn if it feels like it and entreat the angels is insane. If we ever get this list dialed in its gonna be bonkers! I feel manlands are absolutely necessary for their utility including killing plainswalkers, protecting jace and dodging our wraths. Man im loving doing things like eot revival into top activation into terminus, untap drop jace.

The downside is tempo thresh is rough and teeg wrecks the entire deck. Also ooze is very problematic and terminus does nothing to stop them from continuously gsz for it. Other things ive noticed is revival is amazing and protects the yard while setting up miracles and it stops opposing miracles for a turn.

Heres what ive been testing. It has plenty of library manipulation but the things im not sure of are in bold the rest seems really good. The main problem ive found speed. The deck is very slow, slower then UW stoneblade without early threats like sfm+ jitte and souls to establish some form of board presence. It doesnt fear any form of creature based strategy though, barring silver bullets.

Creatures 3
3 snapcaster mage

Plainswalkers 3
3 jace the mindsculptor

Miracles 7
4 terminus
3 entreat the angels

Permission 6
4 force of will
2 spell pierce

Removal 4
4 swords to plowshares

Draw 15
4 brainstorm
4 careful study
4 noxious revival
3 senseis divining top

Lands 22
4 mishras factory
4 flooded strand
4 misty rainforest
4 tundra
4 island
2 plains

It feels like it needs more countermagic more shuffle effects and more threats that dont get wrathed away. Any ideas?
Careful study seems strange but its been really good at dumping miracles and wincons for instant speed use and recursion via revival and snapcaster+revival. Without it im afraid the deck would start to clog with miracles. The other option could be loam but thats a whole different engine.



Reforge the Soul should be in the list. --Wheel of Fortune sounds too good to pass up, play out your hand and counter everything, replenish your hand and worst case scenario ou have snapcaster target to discard.
Im not so sure. It looks tasty but this deck will benefit less than most of its opponents from draw 7. Also the deck really wants to hit 4+ mana asap and a 3rd color would hurt that plan. Damnit but it does put miracles in the yard...hmmm

[Tombstalker]

OK ive been testing this all. Day. Long. This is what ive come up with, its simple but so relentless its scary.


Plainswalkers 4
4 jace, the mind sculptor

Miracles 8
4 terminus
4 entreat the angels

Permission 8
4 force of will
4 spell pierce

Removal 4
4 swords to plowshares

Draw 14
4 brainstorm
4 portent
3 senseis divining top
3 noxious revival

Lands 22
4 mishras factory
4 flooded strand
4 misty rainforest
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
3 island
1 plains

[Cire]

OK ive been testing this all. Day. Long. This is what ive come up with, its simple but so relentless its scary.


Plainswalkers 4
4 jace, the mind sculptor

Miracles 8
4 terminus
4 entreat the angels

Permission 8
4 force of will
4 spell pierce

Removal 4
4 swords to plowshares

Draw 14
4 brainstorm
4 portent
3 senseis divining top
3 noxious revival

Lands 22
4 mishras factory
4 flooded strand
4 misty rainforest
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
3 island
1 plains


I tested this list (probably not as much as you and this is what I found.

1)

4 Entreat the angels it simply way to much. You dont want to draw into it too early, nor do you really want to have it in your hand that early, where it simply waits for you to have enough mana (4) after a terminus. I would replace one, for one more noxious revival - which i think you noticed is an absolute beast.

2)

portent is pointless. I've only been using it for library manipulation and cantrip-ing. At no point was drawing a miracle on my opponents turn a huge benefit. When we ran other miracle cards - sure, it was good. But now, portent would only draw us a terminus after a terminus, which is pointless - or an entreat the angels after a terminus which is cool, but it would be entreat the angles for 2 less mana than it would usually be; 1 for terminus and 1 for portent - so playing portent is only worth it when you set up a terminus followed up by a ETA on top of your library and then play portent, when you have 6 mana open... not really worth it.

So for now i am going to use your list, replacing 1 ETA for 1 Noxious revival, and i'm going to treat the portent spots as open slots and test a variety of different things in them.

[Tombstalker]

I agree portent is a flex/undetermined spot at this point. Revival is add good add you say and even works as a main deck extraction vs reanimator. The only thing I disagree with is dropping one ETA. This deck only has 8 Wincons and droping to 7 will make it difficult to close out games. I was originally running 6, then 7 now 8. Also ETA for 1ww is still a 4/4 undercosted flyer, like a white tombstalker. By all means test your suggestions, this is just what I determined through limited testing.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

I recommend trying 2 Ponder/2 Snapcaster in Place of Portent or adding additional counters, but Snap effectively ups the cantrip count and might flashback a Noxious from time to time.

I will post some closer results/impressions on Monday/Tuesday.

[Cire]

I agree portent is a flex/undetermined spot at this point. Revival is add good add you say and even works as a main deck extraction vs reanimator. The only thing I disagree with is dropping one ETA. This deck only has 8 Wincons and droping to 7 will make it difficult to close out games. I was originally running 6, then 7 now 8. Also ETA for 1ww is still a 4/4 undercosted flyer, like a white tombstalker. By all means test your suggestions, this is just what I determined through limited testing.

I don't feel that a 1WW angle is worth it frankly. When you Terminus you slow them down, briefly, you still don't have inevitability on the board. At the very least I got used to Noxious and Snapcaster to keep on getting those 1WW angles into play after they keep getting removed.

I would at least suggest -4 portent for +1 Noxious and +3 Snap caster.

---

On another note; lets be honest - we can't beat the following decks: Dredge, Non-creature combo, Burn, Zoo. Dredge and storm are IMO lost causes. We don't have a fast enough clock to effectively control them in the time allotted. any less than a ful 15 card suit of grave hate wont be enough for dredge. So I want to only concentrate on Burn and Zoo. I just have no clue what we would want to add in place of 3 snap caster and 1 ETA (assuming your list with the minor changes i placed above). Or what to add in the SB?

Counter may prove ineffective against Zoo due to cavern of souls? Do you think Zoo would play it? Probably not ... but it might evolve into a more Canadian/delver/thresh build... ehh...i have no idea. Any Fast aggro player out there want to give us input on how to counter your projected improvements :tongue:?

[Tombstalker]

Terminus will own zoo and aggro in general, its burn and sligh that will be problematic. It does need more threats just not sure what either. There's always super friends build.

[Cire]

Terminus will own zoo and aggro in general, its burn and sligh that will be problematic. It does need more threats just not sure what either. There's always super friends build.

Zoo's problematic because it can goldfish by turn 3/4 and while we can terminus before then, it's not always so clear cut. We totally control the board by turn 4 granted. But any deck that can race us down to 0 by turn 3 is still a threat that we need to figure out. (includes sneak attack decks)

[Humphrey]

Pulse of the Fields

[Sanity_Cleaver]

Personal Tutor suddenly looks like massive fun...

[dontgetcaught]

This is a deck list I've been working on:

Countdown by dontgetcaught

4x Delver of Secrets
3x Vendillion Clique

4x Temporal Mastery
4x Personal Tutor
2x Ancestral Visions

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Spell Snare
4x Brainstorm

1x Vendalken Shackles
2x Threads of Disloyalty
1x Crucible of Worlds

3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4x Mishra's Factory
6x Fetchland
8x Island
3x Wasteland

[jares]

I was wondering why Scroll Rack isn't generally considered to be an auto-include in this deck, given that the main weakness of the Miracle cards is drawing into them at the wrong time. Sensei's Divining Top surely looks like a good fit, especially given that you can use its draw ability to activate Miracles during your opponent's turn for emergencies.

I also like the potential use of Careful Study, especially in its interaction with Noxious Revival. I don't feel that a full set of Noxious Revival should be included in the main deck though, as its use would still be fairly conditional. The same goes for Snapcaster Mage

I look forward to exploring this deck further.

Cheers,
jares

[Raider Bob]

I tested Scroll rack for awhile, the problem with scroll rack is it is mana intensive in a fairly mana intensive deck. It is a beast late game but early game it is better off being a cantrip as it doe not draw you a card. I was wondering if anyone has play tested proteus staff. I remember the type 2 days where deck stacking was a beast, if you played 2 Snap caster Mage cycling into a Mage would be pretty cool I imagine.

[jares]

I tested Scroll rack for awhile, the problem with scroll rack is it is mana intensive in a fairly mana intensive deck. It is a beast late game but early game it is better off being a cantrip as it doe not draw you a card. I was wondering if anyone has play tested proteus staff. I remember the type 2 days where deck stacking was a beast, if you played 2 Snap caster Mage cycling into a Mage would be pretty cool I imagine.
I was also thinking that Proteus Staff's ability would also allow you to reorder you entire deck such that you could "chain" into several Miracles (Temporal Mastery!) turn after turn. The problem would probably be that you would only be able to do this if you had your own creature to target, and this deck doesn't have too many creatures. Maybe creature tokens would suffice? At this point, the idea might just be something amusing, as it would seem to require a lot of setting-up.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Raider Bob]

In my play testing running cards as a two of for deck space has been very strong. Temporal Mastery is a Three of in the deck for sure. I have been running 4 portent, 4 Brainstorm, 2 Jace, The Mind Sculpter and two Tops. The library manipulation sets up the miricle cards well.

Terminus flashed off a top in response to a sneak attack or just a declared combat step is stronger than a Temporal Mastery. It is also an amazing control answer to Emerkyl or Progenitus.

My major concerns with the deck is its Mana Hungry. Mana ramping in Blue is not a simple task. Chrome Mox isn't really an answer due to your need for cards losing card parody turn one or two hasn't been worth the trade off.

Noxious Revival as a four of is overkill, dropping it to a two of makes its value on turn four+ a lot more important. Has never been an early card I want to play.

Ponder vs Portent: Drawing now is still better then drawing next turn. Sure setting up a miricle next turn is cute but when you really just need an extra land or you want to drop a bomb that you now need to wait an extra turn Portants slow trip becomes a liability.

[Pelikanudo]

Hello, Me and my team are setting a Deck around Miracle
We need to set the Keys:

4 Jace = because it is a brainstorm effect and is the most versatile card in the deck
4 Brainstorm = we NEED this for miracle effects
4 Senseis D.Top = Same as Above
2 Entreat the angels = 2 is the correct number, no more than 2 is needed, this card can finish a game in 1 turn and only having 6 lands!!
4 C.Balance = I find this card ok and a excuse to play C.B. is the Miracle Cards, I really do not conceive a deck with 4 senseis in which you do not use C.B. also it helps vs combo and control match ups, but keep in mind we do not have 3 Costs!!
4 snapcaseter = means 4 brainstorm more which is really neccessary
3 Terminus = 3 or 4 not sure. but you do not want 2 in your opening.
4 Swords to plowsares
3 The card that by 1 white takes out enchantment,creature or artifact not sure if 2 or 3
1 Scroll Rack (maybe 0)
4 spell pierce = yes I've chosen this counter because: we do not need to deal with creatures becuase of all the miracle stuff and is powered by the wateland effects.

23 lands more basics and 4 wastelands between them as wasteland takes the land that is beeing countered and makes S.Pierce better. (thinking in Dust Bowl...)

This is the idea we've been thinking on, the C.B. we are not sure yet, as we don't have too many 2 costs...

[ImpinAintEasy]

So I played against a version of this deck last night on MTGO. The pilot was BOAB, so I found the match to be very relevant. I was playing a version of RUG Delver.

His build contained, 4 Terminus, 3 Mastery, Top, 2 Entreat the Angels, 4 Swords, snappy and the other normal stuff like BS and Jace.

Game 1 - I got an early start with Delver and Nimble only to find out how good Terminus really is. He finally finished me off on the back of Jace and Mastery tricks.

Game 2 - I side in some REB, pretty sure that was it. We went an epic 35 turn battle, ending in him scooping at 2 life and 8 cards in his library. One thing I learned in this match was that his deck seemed to be lacking counters. I never countered terminus, played patiently and kept counters for the threats like Entreat and Jace. Snappy wasn't an issue due to bolt and forked bolt.

Game 3 - We start with his clock at around 3 mins and eventually the clock seals the deal.

It appeared to me that his version needed another counter or two, but all in all the deck operates pretty sick. I wonder how taxing playing the deck in a long tournament would be. Lots of triggers and I can say I felt almost as bored playing against it as I do against high tide. Maybe that's cause I was catching up on past Grimm episodes.

I did watch him roll another player who was playing dream halls and the interactions of the deck are interesting to say the least. Top into entreat on opps turn is pretty sick as well.

While watching the deck in both matches it just felt like the deck is missing a wow factor. Entreat can't be the only answer, otherwise Echoing truth becomes the new sb tech. Mishra's seems like a good idea, but maybe elspeth gets some love as well.

It's nice to see a new deck for a change. I've been getting tired of playing against RDW and Dredge online!

[Johanovich]

On another note; lets be honest - we can't beat the following decks: Dredge, Non-creature combo, Burn, Zoo. Dredge and storm are IMO lost causes. We don't have a fast enough clock to effectively control them in the time allotted. any less than a ful 15 card suit of grave hate wont be enough for dredge. So I want to only concentrate on Burn and Zoo. I just have no clue what we would want to add in place of 3 snap caster and 1 ETA (assuming your list with the minor changes i placed above). Or what to add in the SB?

Reanimator and sneaky show can be though too since they run more permission than you do. And iona on white is game except if you can get a jace 2.0 through, and a smart opponent will keep all of his counters for jtms if he knows you play miracle whip.

[Raider Bob]

Board options

3 Grafdiggers Cage
3 Leylines of Singularity
4 Orim's Chant

Have been good for me against the problem decks.

Delver Burn with Thunderous Wrath is harsh I am sure Zoo gives the same issue.

[ScatmanX]

Just a hint: If you guys cut Snapcaster Mage from the lists that run them, you get imune to Spell Snare.

[Raider Bob]

Just a hint: If you guys cut Snapcaster Mage from the lists that run them, you get imune to Spell Snare.

This seems to be a viable sideboarding option. Snapcasters make up an odd dynamic in the deck 8x Brainstorms and 8x Ponders/swords can be a big deal. In one game I drew into 9 SnapCasters, More than 4 Snapcasters makes your 1mana craziness deck a lot more productive.

The interaction with Terminus and the crazy sifting makes Snapcasters hard to cut.

[jares]

Hello, Me and my team are setting a Deck around Miracle
We need to set the Keys:

4 Jace = because it is a brainstorm effect and is the most versatile card in the deck
4 Brainstorm = we NEED this for miracle effects
4 Senseis D.Top = Same as Above
2 Entreat the angels = 2 is the correct number, no more than 2 is needed, this card can finish a game in 1 turn and only having 6 lands!!
4 C.Balance = I find this card ok and a excuse to play C.B. is the Miracle Cards, I really do not conceive a deck with 4 senseis in which you do not use C.B. also it helps vs combo and control match ups, but keep in mind we do not have 3 Costs!!
4 snapcaseter = means 4 brainstorm more which is really neccessary
3 Terminus = 3 or 4 not sure. but you do not want 2 in your opening.
4 Swords to plowsares
3 The card that by 1 white takes out enchantment,creature or artifact not sure if 2 or 3
1 Scroll Rack (maybe 0)
4 spell pierce = yes I've chosen this counter because: we do not need to deal with creatures becuase of all the miracle stuff and is powered by the wateland effects.

23 lands more basics and 4 wastelands between them as wasteland takes the land that is beeing countered and makes S.Pierce better. (thinking in Dust Bowl...)

This is the idea we've been thinking on, the C.B. we are not sure yet, as we don't have too many 2 costs...
I believe that someone already suggested Personal Tutor as a possible inclusion, and I believe that this will work very well in saving space in the main deck. I also think that, as much as it's often a good card alongside Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance might not be a good fit for the deck given its general CMC; you might probably be better off with just using Force of Will.

Also, I'm not sure of what card you're referring to that "takes out enchantment,creature or artifact" - this sounds like a very good deal for :w:.

Kind Regards,
jares

[(nameless one)]

I think they're referring to Banishing Stroke

[jares]

I think they're referring to Banishing Stroke
Ah, yes. Not too many have been using the card though - either that or I haven't been paying attention. Because of it's versatility, it might arguably be worth including as a full set. Of course, it's a Miracle card, so there's always

Have there been any builds that have successfully cracked the upper ranks of any of the recent major tournaments?

Cheers,
jares

[Raider Bob]

why is noxious revival in your deck? You do know when you cast a miracle spell for its miracle cost its removed from the game.

You only remove Temporal Mastery from the game as part of its resolution. No other Miracle cards do this. Thunderous Wrath in Tempo based decks already has seen this used with crazy goodness.

[gkraigher]

yeah i noticed that and quickly deleted my post. you're right, its a great inclusion in the deck. its also a great card maindeck against reanimater and dredge.