[SCD] Terminus

[HPB_Eggo]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130273&d=1334808088

The above card is confirmed for Avacyn Restored as of yesterday or so.

What does everyone think the impact of the card will be? The effect is obviously very powerful when coupled with Miracle, but is equally uncastable in Legacy for the actual CMC.

In my opinion, this card will have an incredibly large impact on straight control decks. The archetype already focuses heavily on deck manipulation, which translates into being able to reliably cast it for its Miracle cost. More importantly, the effect creates card advantage in many match-ups, i.e. any match-up looking to play out multiple creatures. This makes it perfect for a straight control deck, as opposed to Temporal Mastery, which I believe is better for tempo decks.

I honestly believe this card might make Landstill a playable deck again, but that remains to be seen. Imagine if you could play a better version of WoG for one mana reliably, and that's more or less what I'm seeing with this card.

So, yeah. Short-ways, it seems good in control decks or, optionally, prison decks, what does everyone think?

[DrJones]

I think the impact of this card in legacy can already be seen on that card's art. I would play it if just because my deck was struggling with Progenitus and this card sends it back to sleep for one mana and a bit of setup.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't even know what to think. I could possibly buy some arguments that cards like TM were not broken, but all of these miracle cards...

God, that thing is just... wow.

A variation of WoG for 1 white, Time Walk ala miracle, a Wheel of Fortune? Seriously Wizards?

Know what? Lets just wait and see. All I know is I'm going to try and test some of these miracle cards.

[Cynicath]

Currently brewing a Countertop list with Terminus and Entreat the Angels. No testing yet but it's theoretically awesome!

[(nameless one)]

All I can say is The Mighty Quinn.dec has a new plaything.

[HPB_Eggo]

I've actually been testing an old-ish UWB Landstill list with 2-3 Terminus maindeck. The possibility of losing to aggro is essentially nil.

The necessity of running 3-4 SDT to facilitate miracle also brought some amount of Counterbalance back to the deck. In addition, not having to worry so much about creatures means running Spell Pierce and ditching at least one copy of FoW.

I don't know how great the match-ups currently are against things like Blade Control, but the deck absolutely rapes Maverick and other creature-heavy lists. I'll post a list later, when I have access to it again.

[klaus]

This card has the potential to single-handedly "terminate" Swarm-Aggro.dec.
I actually consider it a threat to Legacy's diversity.
To me it looks banworthy on paper.

[TorpidNinja]

I've actually been testing an old-ish UWB Landstill list with 2-3 Terminus maindeck. The possibility of losing to aggro is essentially nil.

The necessity of running 3-4 SDT to facilitate miracle also brought some amount of Counterbalance back to the deck. In addition, not having to worry so much about creatures means running Spell Pierce and ditching at least one copy of FoW.

I don't know how great the match-ups currently are against things like Blade Control, but the deck absolutely rapes Maverick and other creature-heavy lists. I'll post a list later, when I have access to it again.

Looking forward to seeing this list. Anything which tests well and has "Landstill" in the title makes me happy.

[Justin]

I like how you can cast it on your opponent's turn via Brainstorm or Top. It's a pretty rude answer to Sneak Attack.

[Zinch]

I think this card (and some other in this set) will shake the format and transform it totaly...

If nothing is banned, true aggro decks (not tempo decks) will disapear and the format will be composed of "very tempo" decks (few creatures and a lot of counters), control decks and combo decks.

[death]

In a controll shell this card's effect is stronger than Miracle Walk. I'm guessing we'll see more controllish builds that aren't exactly CB splashing for just SDTs. I expect to see long drawn out games where winning the first game would be crucial. I expect to see an increase in the price of Tundra also, because fuck this card kills aggro.

[DragoFireheart]

I
The necessity of running 3-4 SDT to facilitate miracle also brought some amount of Counterbalance back to the deck.

Counterbalance doesn't play nice with the Miracle cards.

[Tao]

Of course this is only untested theory but it should be fairly obvious that the power level of Terminus/Entreat the Angels combined with Brainstorm and Senseis Top is too high. Imo the only deck in the Meta that would have a chance against a UW Control deck with 3-4 Terminus and Entreat the Angels would be RUG because it can criple the setup. But Terminus is still awesome against RUG because it is a way to deal with Nimble Mongoose.

This kind of UW will rarely lose to Maverick or other swarm based Aggro and I don't see a solution for those decks. Wrath and Jace in the same turn is just too much to recover from and Teeg alone won't cut it. This also means that they get to play with Counterbalance because CB is worst against Maverick but very good against Combo and Burn. And for the Control Mirror, what could you possibly do that even comes close to Entreat the Angels? Nothing!

Miracle basically calls for a preemptive ban. Something has to go and I think it will happen and it will be Brainstorm, maybe even Sensei's Top too.

[wizard_of_gore]

Card is very good, but needs other support cards to set it up to be efficient, otherwise it's still conditional with 6 mana to hardcast. Of corse it's not problem in legacy, but I think that would be best to combine it with WOGs - it's still unconditional removal sweeper for reasonable mana cost. Controll shells with 2 wogs and 2 terminus (with stp, counterspells....) now have a good chance to stand against hyper aggro decks.
Also, with all that hype around miracle cards - aggro/creature decks are going to disappear from format - maybe not beacuse of new cards, but beacuse of mainstream.

[DragoFireheart]

I think some people have been overestimating how much of a drawback the miracle cards are for a blue deck. Between BS, Jace, and Top, it won't be hard to get them out of your hand. And drawing them as normal is also amazing.

[Awaclus]

I think some people have been overestimating how much of a drawback the miracle cards are for a blue deck. Between BS, Jace, and Top, it won't be hard to get them out of your hand. And drawing them as normal is also amazing.
How does Top get them out of your hand?

[HPB_Eggo]

Looking forward to seeing this list. Anything which tests well and has "Landstill" in the title makes me happy.

Everything has yet to be fleshed out, but the core of what I'm running looks like this...

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Terminus
3 Swords to Plowshares

2 Counterbalance
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

2 Entreat the Angels

2-3 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish (Toolbox + Noxious Revival for additional Terminus)

4 Mishra's Factory

There is a lot of variation outside of this list, including additional copies of some of the cards in it, but initial testing indicates it is very strong. Terminus into Standstill with a Factory down on turn three or four is completely doable and very strong. I'm still not entirely sold on playing Entreat the Angels because of the WW cost, but it's been testing well so far.

Also, yes, I have in fact been testing lists without FoW, and they have been performing well in many match-ups. I'm honestly debating it being a SB card only, but we will see what happens.


Counterbalance doesn't play nice with the Miracle cards.

It plays well enough with Entreat the Angels, Terminus is only three cards in the deck, I don't run any other Miracle cards, and it helps with the fairly poor/difficult combo match-up in the first game. I see very little reason NOT to run at least two.

My opinion only, of course, but it's been running pretty well for the moment.

[Tombstalker]

HPB_Eggo- I like your list, especially the inclusion of standstill and counterbalance. At first glance it didnt look doable but a second look shows it may have some potential. The main problem ive been having in testing is the very slow nature of the deck, limited win conditions and bullets like teeg shutting all the wincons down. Looking over your list it appears yours has these same issues inherent as well. Im interested in your experiences so far.

[Nihil Credo]

This card has the potential to single-handedly "terminate" Swarm-Aggro.dec.
I actually consider it a threat to Legacy's diversity.
To me it looks banworthy on paper.

Devil's advocate:

This card also has the potential to single-handedly bring Board-Control.dec back from the dead.

[HPB_Eggo]

Looking over your list it appears yours has these same issues inherent as well. Im interested in your experiences so far.

The deck has a few very good match-ups and a few fairly bad ones.

It does well against Maverick. Teeg is the only card in the deck you care about. If he sticks, you lose. If he doesn't, you win. The match only gets better with the black splash, as Cunning Wish into Surgical Extraction on GSZ is excellent.

(On a side note, the inclusion of Cunning Wish is almost entirely for a few zero or one cost instants and the old-school Pulse of the Fields. It can probably be removed in the majority of cases, but I've liked the added flexibility.)

It folds to Blade Control. They have a faster clock and similar permission. You will win if you get to Terminus 2-3 times, or if they allow you to land Standstill right after Terminus.

Thresh is different. This is what I'm mostly focusing on improving in testing, as the match-up seems to swing drastically based largely on cards outside of the core. Don't have a whole lot to say about it, yet.

Overall, it plays very similar to old Landstill. It will fold to very fast decks and faster decks with similar permission, i.e. Blade Control, Merfolk, etc. It also usually has 1-2 fewer outs to non-creature strategies before boarding, which can be problematic.

Still, it's been doing fairly well. The only DTB that it has a truly poor match-up against is Blade Control, especially with the black splash for MD/SB graveyard hate.

Countertop is actually essential in several matches, as resolving it will, for instance, basically win you the game against Thresh or ANT.

The main reason this list is better than old Landstill lists is the ability to go Terminus into Standstill consistently on turn three or four, with a Mishra's Factory out. For testing I'm basically running through trying out all the cards from the best older Landstill lists. Maybe that's not the best strategy, but it's what I'm starting with for the moment. Suggestions on other cards are most welcome.

Sorry as well about the sporadic nature of the comments, I'm kind of tired at the moment... :tongue:


Devil's advocate:

This card also has the potential to single-handedly bring Board-Control.dec back from the dead.

I see no problems here. Board-Control.dec has always been my favorite archetype. Just need to get it back to working again.

[Malakai]

I think that at the very least it will be a strong sideboard card against midrange aggro, e.g. Maverick.

[HPB_Eggo]

I think that at the very least it will be a strong sideboard card against midrange aggro, e.g. Maverick.

This is definitely the best current deck it is a strong counter too, but it is my opinion that this and a few other cards from the next expansion are going to fundamentally alter the Legacy meta.

[Stan]

People who are talking about how good miracle cards are on account of Jace, Brainstorm and Top forget another useful tool to make these things work: Scroll Rack. That card will rise in prise.

[alderon666]

People who are talking about how good miracle cards are on account of Jace, Brainstorm and Top forget another useful tool to make these things work: Scroll Rack. That card will rise in prise.

I don't like Scroll Rack. With Top you can cash in the Top at any time to get a card. With the Scroll Rack you just lose a card. Also it doesn't allow you to cast miracles on your opponents turn because it doesn't draw cards.

[luckme10]

Of course this is only untested theory but it should be fairly obvious that the power level of Terminus/Entreat the Angels combined with Brainstorm and Senseis Top is too high. Imo the only deck in the Meta that would have a chance against a UW Control deck with 3-4 Terminus and Entreat the Angels would be RUG because it can criple the setup. But Terminus is still awesome against RUG because it is a way to deal with Nimble Mongoose.

This kind of UW will rarely lose to Maverick or other swarm based Aggro and I don't see a solution for those decks. Wrath and Jace in the same turn is just too much to recover from and Teeg alone won't cut it. This also means that they get to play with Counterbalance because CB is worst against Maverick but very good against Combo and Burn. And for the Control Mirror, what could you possibly do that even comes close to Entreat the Angels? Nothing!

Miracle basically calls for a preemptive ban. Something has to go and I think it will happen and it will be Brainstorm, maybe even Sensei's Top too.

Better take Mirri's Guile with that too. It's functionally a free SDT that doesn't protect itself and doesn't let you cast on your opponents turn... seems good enough.

[DrJones]

Mirri's Guile doesn't have activation cost, but it's card disadvantage compared with Sensei's Divining Top, given that you can draw a card out of the latter and then shuffle your library with a fetchland. Also, SDT is faster if you have mana to activate.
That's why people play SDT and Sylvan Library over Mirri's Guile. Better than compare it with SDT, you should compare it with a permanent Natural Selection restricted to yourself, and unable to shuffle your library.

Will you also call for a ban for Natural Selection?

Please, don't start suggesting Natural Selection and Visions as answers against the opponent's miracles.

[Stan]

I don't like Scroll Rack. With Top you can cash in the Top at any time to get a card. With the Scroll Rack you just lose a card. Also it doesn't allow you to cast miracles on your opponents turn because it doesn't draw cards.

True, but unlike Top, it allows you to get a miracle that you got in your opening hand back in the library. It's a card that works best with Life from the Loam, but it's quite good with miracle too.

[Piceli89]

Terminus is the strongest evidence that a card designed with little or nothing attention for its impact on Legacy- as some of the Miracle cards are- will likely drive the format into one-way dominion by few archetypes (namely UW control) in the next 3 months, with some of the current tiers (Maverick) being pushed out badly. The card is excessively retarded and it being narrow isn't really a justification for the tremendous impact on a game for a single white mana. Tao in the first page said everything right, unfortunately.

This will eventually lead to an urgency-ban for Brainstorm, which is probably where they wanted to get. I predict this will happen in the very next B&R announcement, because 3 months are plenty of time to demonstrate how the format has been badly butchered.

Instead of talking shit about horrible cards to make it work or to fight it, try to look further and begin to evaluate how to revamp your decks without Brainstorm.
And, in case you weren't play it (and maybe you'd be even actually happy without it around), try to anticipate what will surge and how to modify your deck accordingly. Beware decks like Belcher or Pox.

[SilverGreen]

Tarmogoyf is so insane. Best have it banned!

Stoneforge Mystic is absurd. Let's ban it!

Snapcaster Mage should never been printed. It's so damn good! Ban it!

Miracle cards will change the environment. What a sacrilege! They deserve a preemptive ban so banworthy they are! Ban them right now, ban ban ban!

Oh, the Legacy community. So attached to their Tundras and Underground Seas, that they'll always refuse to leave 1994.

[Piceli89]

Tarmogoyf is so insane. Best have it banned!

Stoneforge Mystic is absurd. Let's ban it!

Snapcaster Mage should never been printed. It's so damn good! Ban it!

Miracle cards will change the environment. What a sacrilege! They deserve a preemptive ban so banworthy they are! Ban them right now, ban ban ban!

Oh, the Legacy community. So attached to their Tundras and Underground Seas, that they'll always refuse to leave 1994.

Clearly you have little to no lungimirance to understand the difference between a powerful 2-drop and a card like Terminus, especially for what it could imply for a healthy, diverse metagame where midrange and aggro can still perform decently (as now they are). I wish, ironically, that your deck of first choice is Maverick, or Elves, Goblins ("nice Cavern Soul, btw! Look, instead of countering them, I'll wipe your threats") or even Reanimator, for that's worth.
None of this is mine, but I'm still enough sensed to point out when a card is undoubtedly excessive.
None of the cards you mentioned is, because they can't provide tremendous advantages for a single instant-speed mana that doesn't fall under any played disruption, saved Fow and Stifle (which the aforementioned archetypes, baring Reanimator, do NOT play).

Save your taste for blatantly flaming on stereotypical basis for another topic, thanks.

[kiblast]

Terminus is the strongest evidence that a card designed with little or nothing attention for its impact on Legacy- as some of the Miracle cards are- will likely drive the format into one-way dominion by few archetypes (namely UW control) in the next 3 months, with some of the current tiers (Maverick) being pushed out badly. The card is excessively retarded and it being narrow isn't really a justification for the tremendous impact on a game for a single white mana. Tao in the first page said everything right, unfortunately.

This will eventually lead to an urgency-ban for Brainstorm, which is probably where they wanted to get. I predict this will happen in the very next B&R announcement, because 3 months are plenty of time to demonstrate how the format has been badly butchered.


Word up.
Even if I don't really think they printed Miracle mechanic in order to ban Brainstorm. It will just be a natural consequence of Terminus (and to a lesser extent) Walk 2.0 being printed.

[fallenphoenix]

No people go nuts about Wrath of God? A six mana variant even?
I mean, miracle's cute and all, but I highly doubt we will be seeing these cards implemeted in many archetypes, as the variance on them is really high, even in jace.deck.

I feel like this is the Extirpate discussion all over again.

[SilverGreen]

Clearly you have little to no lungimirance to understand the difference between a powerful 2-drop and a card like Terminus, especially for what it could imply for a healthy, diverse metagame where midrange and aggro can still perform decently (as now they are). I wish, ironically, that your deck of first choice is Maverick, or Elves, Goblins ("nice Cavern Soul, btw! Look, instead of countering them, I'll wipe your threats") or even Reanimator, for that's worth.
None of this is mine, but I'm still enough sensed to point out when a card is undoubtedly excessive.
None of the cards you mentioned is, because they can't provide tremendous advantages for a single instant-speed mana that doesn't fall under any played disruption, saved Fow and Stifle (which the aforementioned archetypes, baring Reanimator, do NOT play).

Save your taste for blatantly flaming on stereotypical basis for another topic, thanks.
Please. Don't. You understood the post.

[Nihil Credo]

*coughs nonchalantly*

[HPB_Eggo]

At least in my opinion, Terminus is going to warp the format.

Temporal Mastery will not, as the usefulness of trading a top-decked, i.e. a draw, for an extra turn is not that great outside of temp decks. It will be great in Delver and a few other decks and basically no others.

Terminus, on the other hand, is a little different. It's actually MORE limited than Temporal Mastery, in that there is little reason to run it in a deck that runs creatures with the intent to swing with them. What makes it bad for the format is that, at least in those decks that run it, the card acts as a 1CMC, instant-speed Wrath of God.

Whether or not this will lead to Brainstorm or Top being banned, or simply to Terminus being banned, I don't know. At least IMO, the only Miracle card truly over the top that is currently widely known is Terminus, so banning that makes the most sense to me.

We'll wait and see exactly what Wizards does, but it's my guess that they will HAVE to do something.

[Tombstalker]

After testing terminus non stop for the last few days in a control shell I'm inclined to agree with eggo. Even in this early stage of deck development I was casting terminus nearly every turn I felt like it as early as t2, often at instant speed, while dropping game ending threats. One game I cast it upwards of 8 times. Because I could. Maverick will literally need to run a full set of teeg just to have a chance. Even thresh was folding to this thing although thresh probably has one of the better matchups against it. Burn, blue sligh, fast combo (non creature variety) and maybe tempo are all that will remain in the wake of terminus.
I don't want a ban to happen until we see if its necessary but if so then it should be terminus, not brainstorm and friends that gets the hammer.

[fallenphoenix]

One game I cast it upwards of 8 times.

Is this some kind of joke? Either you are trying to imply that you have been flashing it back via Snapcaster, then cast runic Repetition to do it all over again, which is fairly amusing.
Or you're misunderstanding how "casting spells" works. Hint: They don't remain in your hand.


€dit: The more I contemplate on it, the more I think some people don't understand how "Miracle" works.
In the "Avacyn Restored"-thread someone ranted how you'd "timewalk every turn with Jace out".
Dear folks, when "Miracle" let's you cast the card, it goes to the stack, then its goes to the graveyard (or in case of Temporal Mastery: the exile). These cards are not a giant free-roll with Buyback: Zero.

[Humphrey]

Obnoxious Revival + Snapcaster + Miracle

[fallenphoenix]

Really?
I'd love to play against any deck packing a bunch of Noxious Revival for whatever reason.

I'm really looking forward to crushing people, who put on their new fancy miracle-pants.

[Tao]

Noxious Revival is a decent card and you underestimate the Miracle mechanic.

[Rizso]

2 Card combos used to kill all creatures! Is it gonna end legacy? Doubt it. Guess predict is gonna be a much better card if miracles actually is gonna be worth playing and if its worth the time to set them up.

[GGoober]

Rizso, it's true it's a 2-card combo to be anywhere playable, but in a control list naturally packing the cantrip/Tops to support Terminus, and the luck of draws into a first-drawn terminus, this card unlike other Miracle card has one thing going for it that other miracle cards don't i.e. it is a control sweeper miracle card that fits naturally with Brainstorms + Top. Every other Miracle card only works with a package of 4 Brainstorm, and to fit another 4 Top or enablers will cost the card space in those decks, but with Terminus since it fits naturally into the 4 Brainstorm + 4 Top package, it is not as hard to support or fit them in a given control deck.


Noxious Revival is a decent card and you underestimate the Miracle mechanic.

Yupp, Noxious Revival is playable to some extent but with Miracle mechanic it is arguably very playable now. With Terminus, it's not really Noxious Revival into Terminus to kill one creature, you revival that Terminus to SWEEP a board once again. If you can hallowed burial just two creatures with the miracle cost with Noxious Revival + Hallowed Burial, that's already pretty sick.

I have a feeling they're really trying to ban brainstorm with the excuse that these Miracle cards don't impact Legacy but the culprit is BS. We'll see. I personally feel all the MIracle cards actually WON'T impact Legacy as much because the specific cards really don't impact a healthy (currently aggro based format). But Terminus with 4 Tops and 4 Brainstorm is a little too consistent and fits too naturally in a control shell. I don't have issues with that because classic control decks have been underwhelmed as of lately, but even I think this power level and impact on the format is going to be shakingly scary.

Not sure if Scroll Rack needs to be picked up fast at this rate. I have a monoW Quinn-ish list being brewed up in my mind right now. 4 Top + 4 Scroll Rack + 4 Scrying Sheets and the regular Quinn package seems good. Might have a chance against combo with Chants and Abeyance/Leylines.

[HPB_Eggo]

Running one in the SB with a Cunning Wish toolbox is actually really strong with Terminus in.

Just sayin'.

(Yes, Cunning Wish is no longer too slow with Terminus, and the flexibility it adds is great for the list I posted.)

EDIT: By one, I mean Noxious Revival. And it IS important that you don't have to play it in the MD to get the effect when you need it for many lists.

[Bruticus]

Noxious Revival just got about 10x better in any deck with decent card draw. I wonder if foils will hit $40 like Misstep did.

Are people still going to cry themselves to sleep about Hexproof creatures (as if sticking something to the board isn't a legitimate part of the game, my petdeck shouldn't have to play sweepers) with Terminus so easily splashable? I can't imagine playing anything other than utility creatures and bombs in miracle.format

[fallenphoenix]

Noxious Revival is a decent card and you underestimate the Miracle mechanic.

I'm willing to take the risk of underestimating Miracle.
Terminus might even be a decent card for some decks, but why wouldn't these decks rather play Wrath? You're assuming that you have excess Brainstorms all the time to play this for the Miracle cost? I can't tell you how often I wished for Brainstorm in any deck, even without a 6-drop that needs BS as setup.
Making you dependable on your best card isn't really a good deckbuilding strategy, I'd rather include a bunch of cards that are decent in any given hand instead of cards, that do nothing if drawn in some sitiuations.

Also this card does NOT combo well with Jace (you set up a Wrath for the Turn after you play Jace... nicely timed).

I can say that I have not included WoG in many decks lately for a reason - it's a pretty horrible card against 60% of the decks. Against Maverick it's really good (but so is EE), against Elves/RUG-Delver it's too slow and EE is just much better, against everything else you don't need it/don't want it.
So, tell me again, why is a new WoG-variant meta-warping?

Oh one more thing:
Noxious Revival is a terrible, terrible card. Nothing you could say would convince me otherwise.
...
Oh, what am I saying, Noxious Revival is a GREAT card, please, dear Legacy players, play more Noxious Revival. You can do awesome stuff with it, such as putting Brainstorm on top, then Brainstorm into your Brainstorm and more Noxiuos Revival, putting Brainstorm back on top.

[Tombstalker]

Trollingphoenix- its obvious you haven't tested with these miracles at all. Terminus plays perfectly with jtms and revival is sick and fights opposing miracles and reanimator. Brainstorm is arguably the best card in legacy, this deck feels like its playing with 3 sets. Think about this for a second, full sets of brainstorm, jace, top and revival plus scm mean you can find and play ANYTHING you want WHENEVER you want. You can literally brainstorm and wrath every turn often on their turn then drop jace and set up entreat or terminus. Card disadvantage of revival doesn't matter because full sets of jace, terminus and entreat completely negate any disadvantage you could create and generate massive advantage. We've all either countered or killed jace and felt like we dodged a huge bullet. Once this deck reaches 4 lands it will drop jace every turn until it sticks.
Ya the deck will have weaknesses but it won't be creatures.
I guess my point is the deck I am testing doesn't play 8+ terminus but it CAN. It plays 8+ of whatever is best against its opponent.

[lolosoon]

Oh, what am I saying, Noxious Revival is a GREAT card, please, dear Legacy players, play more Noxious Revival. You can do awesome stuff with it, such as putting Brainstorm on top, then Brainstorm into your Brainstorm and more Noxiuos Revival, putting Brainstorm back on top.
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/19182570.jpg