The Foundation

[HPB_Eggo]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130273&d=1334808088

This deck revolves around abusing a card from the upcoming expansion, Avacyn Restored. That card would be Terminus, what is essentially a 1-mana WoG. It is also the deck's namesake, for obvious reasons.

Anyways, the following is the core of the lists I have been testing. There are a number of important questions to be asked and answered, but first, the list:

The Foundation [Core Only]
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Terminus
3 Innocent Blood

4 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
2 Counterbalance

2 Standstill

4 Mishra's Factory

There is now room for 9-12 spells and 18-21 lands in the deck.

The deck's plan is to control the game heavily in the beginning of the game. Spell Pierce to deal with nasty spells, Terminus to wipe creatures. Your job is to wipe all threats and land a Standstill by turn three or four on an empty board, hopefully with a factory out. From there, you either draw a pile of cards and win with CA or you ping with factory and then win with CA.

Terminus is great, and is the namesake of the deck largely because playing even one for it's miracle cost early will translate into a win against the vast majority of aggro decks.

The most questionable cards in the core are Innocent Blood and Counterbalance.

Innocent Blood is good for several reasons. First, it and Terminus both go through any protection, important for many match-ups. Secondly, it still costs one mana. Literally the only case it is not good in, when combined with Terminus, is when Maverick lands Gaddok Teeg.

Counterbalance is amazing CA and wins several match-ups when it lands. The only card it does not play well with in the core is Terminus.

Now, some important questions, in no particular order...

We need another win condition, either creature-less or recurrable. I have had success with both Thopter Foundry and Entreat the Angels. Any other ideas are quite welcome.

Should we include FoW? What about other counterspells?

Cunning Wish and Enlightened Tutor have both been promising in testing. Which, if either, should be included?

How many Standstill should be run? Predicated on the inclusion of Enlightened Tutor, of course.

Are any creatures worth running? First on the list, is Snapcaster worthwhile?

Anyways. Critique as you please. If you can answer one of the important questions, that would be great. If I come up with more or further refine the list, I will simply update this post, rather than scattering everything throughout the thread.

[somethingdotdotdot]

I think innocent blood should be cut for stp's. Black should probably be removed just to stabilize the manabase so that you can run mishra's and wastelands. StP being an instant also allows you to do things like tundra and stp on their turn to set up standstill.

Crucible seems nice to stabilize your mana once you hit 3 (since you need land drops all the way up to till ~6 lands)

Another card that may warrant inclusion would be lingering souls. Even without stoneforge mystic->equipment it's a pretty powerful stall spell and game winner.

For the important questions:
As for the FOW, its a definite include in this deck. It can be drawn off of standstill to counter their spells in response and you have a good way to replace the card advantage lost by it. For other counterspells, i think you might want to just run good ol' counterspell. You're going for a long, slow game of attrition anyways. Might as well be able to counter their stuff once they hit their 10th mana.

I think enlightened tutor has better synergy with the list on a whole You could have a bunch of silver bullets (including standstill). Cunning wish just seems a bit too slow even with all of the control elements. You could probably main deck moat and humility so enlightened tutor can grab one of your lock pieces (or finish counterbalance/top or even grab a crucible in a pinch).

I'm not sure if standstill is good enough at the moment. But if it is, i think 3 would be a decent number. They can definitely sit dead in your hand while you wait for the removal spells. Or they could just flash in a snapcaster in response to your standstill and you're jsut sort of stuck.

Snapcaster may be worth running--I'm not really sure to be honest. But, if you're running 5 swords (4 stp, 1 path), 4 brainstorms, 1 intuition, x counterspells, x enlightened tutor; you only have about 15 spells to flashback at most. That doesn't seem like enough to warrant his inclusion, but that's a judgement call.

[HPB_Eggo]

StP does not warrant inclusion over Innocent Blood. The only reason to run it at all is for an out to Teeg. Terminus deals with literally all other aggro strategies. Not to mention it is great in the thresh match-up, which is one of the deck's poorer ones.

As for Standstill, it further increases the usefulness of Terminus. Being able to EOT Terminus during the opponent's turn right into Standstill is incredibly strong.

Lingering Souls is certainly an option I have toyed with during testing, but it never seemed to recur well enough with the consistent early board wipe, and it is not inevitable enough to simply ride to victory when it is played. It's also not all that great without Intuition, and slots are already hard enough to justify when it is just the one card.

E Tutor definitely has more synergy, but Wish is more broad in its application, and is definitely not too slow in this deck. I am mostly leaning towards E Tutor at the moment, but Wish is definitely not out of the question.

As for FoW, I am actually leaning mostly towards cutting it entirely. With the exception of combine, which is only won by CBTop in the first game, it has Provence mostly sub-par in testing.

I guess the main extra question your post brings up is how important a reliable MD out to Trey is. Will need to test Maverick more to find out.

[Aggro_zombies]

So maybe it's just me, but putting all the opponent's dudes on the bottom his library seems kind of suspect in a format with Green Sun's Zenith and fetchlands. Wouldn't Wrath of God just be better in a deck not looking to cast its own guy post-Terminus?

[Vacrix]

So maybe it's just me, but putting all the opponent's dudes on the bottom his library seems kind of suspect in a format with Green Sun's Zenith and fetchlands. Wouldn't Wrath of God just be better in a deck not looking to cast its own guy post-Terminus?
Perhaps, but it could also potentially buy you enough time to land Jace, Counterbalance, or Standstill.

[HPB_Eggo]

That they can draw the creatures again is not particularly bad for this deck, as you generally soft lock with CBTop before it becomes a real issue.

What is a real issue is GSZ and Entomb. For those, 4 Surgical Extraction has been in virtually every SB I have tested, and you always have Innocent Blood for Reanimator.

Also, I will say for a fact that Terminus is much, much better than WoG for this deck, and probably for many like it. Instant speed and coming in two turns faster is huge in general, and only gets better with Standstill.

[Vacrix]

In fact, Standstill can break on your opponents turn, and if you are keeping a Terminus on top with SDT, you can play its Miracle for W as the first card you draw.

[HPB_Eggo]

Exactly so, although there aren't many cases where you want to Terminus immediately after Standstill breaks. I was mostly referring to breaking aggro decks with turn two or three EOT WoG followed by Standstill.

[Aggro_zombies]

Perhaps, but it could also potentially buy you enough time to land Jace, Counterbalance, or Standstill.
How do you figure?

I have a couple of objections to this card: first, you're not really good at exploiting the cost savings over Wrath in this deck, and second, you give the opponent all his guys back when the best aggressive deck often runs some combination of Sylvan Library, fetchlands, and GSZ. I'll cover them separately:

1) You don't really exploit the savings well. The best play I can see with Terminus is to miracle it and then cast Jace, which has a couple of problems. First, it's five mana, which makes it not substantially different in terms of time from Wrath on turn four and Jace on turn five (or the reverse). The biggest difference I see is that Terminus stacks up better than Wrath against Spell Pierce and Daze, which suggests Canadian Threshold as the opponent - and barring multiple flipped Delvers, they are really not putting you under that much pressure. Isn't a package of EE, StP, and Innocent Blood better? Second, unlike Wrath, you will need to expend some effort (and therefore mana) to keep Terminus on top of your library; this is especially true if you don't need to Wrath right away, since at six mana Terminus is pretty damn expensive to cast at retail. That makes the cost savings less attractive since it's really just a distributed cost...but then again, you're Landstill, so it's not like you've got anything better to do with your mana.

On the other hand, you're Landstill, and you don't have anything better to do with your mana: why is saving on Terminus better than Wrathing?

2) You give your opponent his dudes back. With Wrath, the opponent doesn't get his creatures back, which is relevant. Canadian can crack a fetch to shuffle and then Brainstorm or Ponder its way back into guys; Maverick can crack a fetch or GSZ to shuffle and then Sylvan Library more guys to the top; even Stoneblade has Brainstorm and fetches to wrangle up the guys you've so kindly returned to him (or, you know, Lingering Souls to just make more guys).

Landstill in particular wins at the speed of glacially slow, so it naturally gives its opponents way more opportunities to draw back into the game. If you had a quick clock, you could mitigate Terminus's drawback, but you don't, so your opponent has more time to shuffle his library and then cast dudes again.

---

Those two issues in combination with each other makes me think Landstill is not the right shell for Terminus. If you wanted to tap out a lot on your own turns, Terminus would be the right Wrath for the job, but Landstill doesn't usually want to tap out ever. I could see Terminus in a token deck wherein you want to curtail your opponent's ability to stave off your crappy 1/1s; Terminus gets rid of his guys and then you cast a Lingering Souls or Spectral Procession or Gather the Townsfolk and you're off to the races again.

EDIT: Turn two-three WoG seems terrible except in the case of Standstill. Your opponent will have virtually no pressure at that point, so unless you intend to make him draw you three cards, the earlier casting time does nothing. The OP build has two Standstills, so...

[HPB_Eggo]

A core list provides MINIMUM numbers of cards for the deck, not set numbers. Your complaint about the number of Standstill is actually valid outside of the builds that run Enlightened Tutor.

As for the rest of your complaints, it is kind of silly that you cannot see that one as opposed to four mans is important. Being able to cast it EOT is a huge improvement.

Also, the real card to compare it to is StP, not WoG. It just sound more impressive when you call it a 1 mana WoG.

[hyperchord24]

I see Terminus going in a deck with scrying sheets, snow covered plains and sensei's divining top.

[Aggro_zombies]

A core list provides MINIMUM numbers of cards for the deck, not set numbers. Your complaint about the number of Standstill is actually valid outside of the builds that run Enlightened Tutor.

As for the rest of your complaints, it is kind of silly that you cannot see that one as opposed to four mans is important. Being able to cast it EOT is a huge improvement.

Also, the real card to compare it to is StP, not WoG. It just sound more impressive when you call it a 1 mana WoG.
Yeah, sure, it costs less. But if you don't capitalize on the savings, does it matter? Wrath EoT followed by untap, land, go doesn't exactly blow me away here.

[HPB_Eggo]

Yeah, sure, it costs less. But if you don't capitalize on the savings, does it matter? Wrath EoT followed by untap, land, go doesn't exactly blow me away here.

That isn't what the deck is designed to do, and why I believe it is different from Landstill. Even with just the core list, you are nearly always casting Counterbalance, Standstill, or Jace right after Terminus.

The most successful lists I have been testing also run either Entreat the Angels, Thopter Foundry, and/or some additional artifact or enchantment lock pieces.

Now, if you have more complaints that are answered by a thorough reading of my first post, I advise you take them elsewhere.

[Aggro_zombies]

That isn't what the deck is designed to do, and why I believe it is different from Landstill. Even with just the core list, you are nearly always casting Counterbalance, Standstill, or Jace right after Terminus.

The most successful lists I have been testing also run either Entreat the Angels, Thopter Foundry, and/or some additional artifact or enchantment lock pieces.

Now, if you have more complaints that are answered by a thorough reading of my first post, I advise you take them elsewhere.
I read the OP, thanks. Standstill seems like something of a nonbo with Miracles unless you have Top or JTMS to ensure you don't draw them while you take forever to win with Factory, and an opponent with instants in his deck can just do something on your turn to force you to draw all the miracles you now can't cast for their miracle costs.

Also, because miracles are expensive, your Counterbalance curve seems kind of shitty unless you really shave back on how many you run (a couple Terminus, an Entreat the Angels or maybe two, and no Forces) and keep the land count low. I mean, it seems like it would be hilarious to spin a Top with a Counterbalance out and see cmc 1, cmc 2, miracle and then have to decide between drawing your miracle for little value to keep your lock up or breaking your lock to keep your miracle ready.

Also, I would question how often you want to Wrath, then try to set up a lock versus set up the lock and then Wrath. There doesn't seem to be that much difference to me unless the game is very, very close - again, implying Canadian here because Maverick doesn't apply loads of pressure early.

[HPB_Eggo]

If you read my post, I am honestly not sure why you keep making arguments with no bearing on the deck I described.

As for wiping before locking, it is almost always better, both in theory and in ptactice. Jace works best on an empty board, as does Standstill and Counterbalance.

Anyways. Moving on to things of relevance...

My testing has generally shown that a combination of Enlightened Tutor and Thopter Foundry is the deck's strongest variant. Anyone else testing find this to be or not to be the case? Any other win conditions that should be considered?

Also in testing, Trey has not been a huge problem for that particular list. Early EE for two and sit or O Ring tends to be enough to deal with him. Anyone else having or not having huge problems with Test? If so, why?

[yadda]

Maverick doesn't apply loads of pressure early.

Um last i checked Maverick is capable of making very aggressive plays in the early game, whenever they open on noble hierarch you can almost guarantee that you will be on 10 by the end of their 4th turn with lethal on board if you don't interfere in a substantial way.

also your earlier complaint about giving them guys back doesn't seem to matter at all in a deck with such devastating inevitability.

in reference to win conditions for this deck entreat is not very good against blue decks

i would suggest playing either elspeth (gets around moat) or perhaps something really off like eternal dragon(recurrable) or just tarmogoyf (best wall in the format, also attacks for profit, also then you have green in your manabase for a maindeck deed to tutor for before you set up CBtop lock.)

[Erdvermampfa]

As I've replied in the other thread: I think that Snapcaster Mage is really good with all those low costed 1 mana counters and swords, although you'll have a struggle to fit him in there. He also provides some kind of board presence that can be advantagerous against Maverick if your opponent attacks with Gaddock Teeg.

Concerning the Win Condition issue: I'm really impressed how Entreat the Angels has been performing. It solves the problem that our usual Win Conditions ( Jace, Elspeth, Factories ) are kind of slow. when you've dropped enough lands (4-5) it can turn the board position immediatly while finishing the game within about 2-3 turns. The downside is that you can only run about 2 because it clogs up your hand bad.

As for FoW I think that not including it has never been for question, especially since you can refill your hand with Standstill and Jace so quickly.

Furthermore it bothers me which card should be included to handle noncreature permanents, e.g. Equipment, Batterskull and Sylvan Library. I've had EE for this purpose so far but it tends to weaken the manabase too much, since you have to go 3colored and that is awkward considering we usually already have 6 colorless lands (4 Mishras, 2 Wasteland). Cunning Wish might be a valid choice but its kind of slow and doesn't help to stabilize the board.


Edit: Don't think of adding Time Walk. that card sucks because we can't capitalize on the additional attack phase.

[HPB_Eggo]

When it comes to recurrable win conditions, I do believe Thopter is the strongest, and also does not REQUIRE splashing even a third colour.

As for splashing a fourth colour, that really is not much of an option with so much Stifle/ Wasteland floating around. Three colour has even been questionable in testing. Add that to the fact that Deed is basically just Terminus against the current DTB list and green is certainly not worth splashing.

Entreat has been great against every virtually every non-blue deck. Problem is, many of the best decks in the format run blue, and Terminus already hoses Maverick pretty hard. Running 1 might work, but is not necessarily a great idea.

Force is an excellent card, but I continue to test without it and be fine. Pierce and Terminus keep the board clear early. The only match-ups where I miss it are the combo ones, and we can always beat them games two/three with the SB.

And, finally, Temporal Mastery is just plain bad in this deck. Tested it, and it did nothing but slightly accelerate wins in match-ups we are already Tagore's in.

Another question, now: with serious consideration to switching back to two colours, does anyone know of an easy way to deal with a fast Nimble Mongoose? Innocent blood was exceptional at this, but I cannot think of a similar plan in U/W.

[klaus]

STP>>Innocent Blood in any deck that has access to white.
Just my two pence.

Edit:
Secret hint: let others terminate swarm aggro with their Terminuts and play 6-7 spot removals instead, making sure your UR/RUG MUs remain favorable ;-)

[HPB_Eggo]

Under a great number of circumstances, I definitely agree. However, it being excellent against Thesh's mongeese is very relevant.

Considering how cheap our board sweep is and how bad the Thresh match-up is without it, I would say it works better here. StP is obviously better than Blood against large numbers of creatures, but Terminus deals with these in every situation that doesn't involve Teeg.

I think if you do the testing you will agree with me that Swords is good in an already good match-up, i.e. Maverick, whip Blood is excellent in some bad match-ups, i.e. Thresh. As for Blade Control, both are of equal relevance before they land some equipment, and after that creature removal is not the greatest of our worries.

[klaus]

Under a great number of circumstances, I definitely agree. However, it being excellent against Thesh's mongeese is very relevant.

Considering how cheap our board sweep is and how bad the Thresh match-up is without it, I would say it works better here. StP is obviously better than Blood against large numbers of creatures, but Terminus deals with these in every situation that doesn't involve Teeg.

I think if you do the testing you will agree with me that Swords is good in an already good match-up, i.e. Maverick, whip Blood is excellent in some bad match-ups, i.e. Thresh. As for Blade Control, both are of equal relevance before they land some equipment, and after that creature removal is not the greatest of our worries.

...I don't see your point: Terminus already deals with Mongeese nicely.

[HPB_Eggo]

It also requires set-up and can be Stifled when played with the Miracle trigger.

Trust me. When testing that match-up, Terminus was simply not enough to consistently deal with Mongoose, especially if they knew what they were doing and saved some Stifles.

[Sanity_Cleaver]

Entreat the Angels for a finisher? You could very well use it here.

Standstill has already been mentioned.

And Personal Tutor for LoLz (can't remember for sure but I don't think it's banned)

[HPB_Eggo]

Personal Tutor is slow and is card disadvantage that can't really be worked around in most match-ups. When you're looking at only really tutoring up Terminus, there's not a whole lot of point to adding it.

Entreat the Angels is solid, but I'm still on the fence between that and Thopter Foundry as win conditions. Both are very good, but in different situations. Add that to definitely not having room in the SB and a choice has to be made.

Anyone else testing similar lists have anything to say about win conditions? Once that's set, it's much easier to make a more complete decklist.

[Kich867]

Entreat the Angels for a finisher? You could very well use it here.

Standstill has already been mentioned.

And Personal Tutor for LoLz (can't remember for sure but I don't think it's banned)

Entreat the Angels feels like the most underrated miracle thus far. There are some that are bad, for sure, but with 5 mana you're putting someone on a 2 turn clock.

[HPB_Eggo]

So, I've been testing this rather off-and-on, and I believe I've found a way to make the deck work out quite well...

The Foundation
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus

3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Entreat the Angels

2 Standstill
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Moat
1 Humility

1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
5 Plains
2 Tundra
1 Polluted Delta

SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flusterstorm
2 Path to Exile
1 Back to Basics
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Grafdigger's Cage


The deck largely revolves around the interaction between Snapcaster, Enlightened Tutor, and the other cards in the deck.

For instance. With Counterbalance on the table, Enlightened Tutor is a hard counter for one mana, and incredibly easy to flashback with Snapcaster. Similarly, Brainstorm with Snapcaster means never having to sit with a Terminus or Entreat the Angels in your hand, and is also often a hard counter for one mana with Counterbalance, even without needing to have top out.

Overall, Snapcaster really makes the deck run very well. Every instant and sorcery I run, with the exception of Terminus, is very easy to flashback in a control shell with little else to do with the mana. Even running Terminus as a sweeper is not particularly problematic, as it simply puts them back in the deck so you can draw and use them later.

The one and only drawback to Snapcaster Mage is that he doesn't work well with Humility, but that is nearly never a problem. In matches where you want to see it, it is always more important than the Snapcaster.

Anyways. That's all I've got to say for the moment. The deck is running very smoothly, it wins almost 100% of the time against Maverick, and it is fun to be able to fairly consistently use Snapcaster as a hard counter.