[EDH] Griselbrand Combo

[apistat_commander]

General: Griselbrand

Creatures(10):
1 Leaden Myr
1 Blood Pet
1 Dark Confidant
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Nirkana Revenant
1 Overeager Apprentice
1 Palladium Myr
1 Priest of Gix
1 Skirge Familiar
1 Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed

Enchantments(3):
1 Dark Tutelage
1 Necropotence
1 Phyrexian Arena

Instants(10):
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Culling the Weak
1 Dark Ritual
1 Insidious Dreams
1 Rain of Filth
1 Sacrifice
1 Shred Memory
1 Tainted Pact
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries(15):
1 Ancient Craving
1 Ambition's Cost
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Bubbling Muck
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infernal Contract
1 Night's Whisper
1 Promise of Power
1 Sign in Blood
1 Sickening Dreams
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Words of Waste

Artifacts(23):
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Charcoal Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Defense Grid
1 Expedition Map
1 Grim Monolith
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Jet Medallion
1 Jeweled Amulet
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mind Stone
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Star Compass
1 Sol Ring
1 Voltaic Key

Lands(38):
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Crystal Vein
1 Deserted Temple
1 Ebon Stronghold
1 Lake of the Dead
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
24 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Scrying Sheets
1 Phyrexian Tower

My friend and I want to put together a mono-black multiplayer Storm combo deck with Griselbrand at the helm. Here is the first draft. It feels a bit rough right now. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[herbig]

I would start with this deck:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/commander/23076_Dear_Azami_The_Worst_Thing_You_Can_Still_Do_To_People.html

and swap generals and you're done.

[DragoFireheart]

Griselbrand is going to be stupid in EDH. 40 life, pay 7 to draw 7? LOL!

[Admiral_Arzar]

If you're going to play Tainted Pact at least split your basics between normal and snow-covered. I would cut most of the bad creatures and just play straight combo pieces/draw/mana/tutors and be done with it. Your goal is to reach 8 mana and resolve a protected Griselband as quickly as possible - once he resolves winning is academic.

[socialite]

Griselbrand is going to be stupid in EDH. 40 life, pay 7 to draw 7? LOL!

Everyone keeps crying about this; dude costs 8 mana. Even with the best ramp in mono Black if you cannot answer this guy on the board or stop it with a counter/tuck the pod/playgroup is incompetent and deserves to lose.

[kombatkiwi]

Everyone keeps crying about this; dude costs 8 mana. Even with the best ramp in mono Black if you cannot answer this guy on the board or stop it with a counter/tuck the pod/playgroup is incompetent and deserves to lose.

Once it resolves everybody is dead. It doesnt matter if you have swords or spin into myth or anything because griselbrand has already drawn a million cards...

[Kuma]

Once it resolves everybody is dead. It doesnt matter if you have swords or spin into myth or anything because griselbrand has already drawn a million cards...

Truth. You need to counterspell Griselbrand or you lose. Removing him post facto isn't enough. Or at least it hasn't been in my playgroup.

Cards that specifically must be counterspelled to be answered and that win you the game if they resolve need to be kept under close observation. Also his CMC is irrelevant if you're reanimating him. It's also not hard to have him out on turn four or so through artifact ramp and ritual effects.

[Bruedetour]

Everyone keeps crying about this; dude costs 8 mana. Even with the best ramp in mono Black if you cannot answer this guy on the board or stop it with a counter/tuck the pod/playgroup is incompetent and deserves to lose.

I hate to just jump in and re-iterate what everyone else is saying but with a good black deck the 8 mana is a non-issue. Incompetence is not really a factor when it comes to my playgroup we tested griselbrand in multiple decks and if you don't have counter you lose. The only other way to answer him is split second effects.

[kombatkiwi]

I hate to just jump in and re-iterate what everyone else is saying but with a good black deck the 8 mana is a non-issue. Incompetence is not really a factor when it comes to my playgroup we tested griselbrand in multiple decks and if you don't have counter you lose. The only other way to answer him is split second effects.


Wipe away doesnt help much either because you can just activate it 4 or 5 times without passing priority.

[herbig]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/commander/24016_Dear_Azami_The_Angels_Of_Asymmetrical_Warfare.html


I could've built a Griselbrand deck. Of course, I then realized I already have and took my much-hated "proof of concept" Maralen deck Ad Nauseam Tendrils deck out of the box, swapped out the crappy Commander that basically never actually gets you a Tutored-for Ad Nauseam, and swapped in Yawgmoth's Bargain. Since I got some more expensive cards since then, I added in Lion's Eye Diamond over Winding Canyons (I know! Sacrilege! I cut Winding Canyons from a deck of mine!) and Grim Tutor over Snow-Covered Swamp, and called it a ridiculous, ridiculous day.

I wanted to add LED to the deck even before swapping commanders because it's yet another way to profit with Ad Nauseam and that's what we're all about here, but realizing that you can actually use it to cast Griselbrand made me want to vomit all over myself rather messily as I envisioned hands with a Dark Ritual and a Lion's Eye Diamond that let me cast Griselbrand on turn 3, draw 35 cards, semi "go off" with a small Tendrils or Exsanguinate, then draw the rest of my deck and murder everyone to death.

[socialite]

I find it humorous how everyone of the aforementioned scenarios assume zero interaction, pre Griselbitch, from the other players in the pod. In a vacuum the card is obviously busted. I'd argue incompetence, whether it be in threat assessment or deck building, will have quite a bit to do with how decently Griselbrand plays out. I have a hard time seeing this guy having a major impact (excluding nut draws) in meta games where everyone isn't derping for the first 6 turns; which unfortunately seems to be most EDH groups on this board?

[Kuma]

I find it humorous how everyone of the aforementioned scenarios assume zero interaction, pre Griselbitch, from the other players in the pod. In a vacuum the card is obviously busted. I'd argue incompetence, whether it be in threat assessment or deck building, will have quite a bit to do with how decently Griselbrand plays out. I have a hard time seeing this guy having a major impact (excluding nut draws) in meta games where everyone isn't derping for the first 6 turns; which unfortunately seems to be most EDH groups on this board?

I was going to write a rebuttal, but I thought it would be more prudent to ask you if you've played even a single game of EDH with or against a competent player running a deck designed to abuse Griselbrand? I have, and it's miserable. It's not that Griselbrand decks can't lose, or even that they win too many games (I don't have enough data to determine that yet). It's that once he's out, and this is often turn three or four, it's herp, derp draw 28-35 cards, use free countermagic to stop you from stopping me and win with some combo on my turn. Every game except one I've played where a Griselbrand hit the table, the player who got him out won. The exception was one time he didn't draw any free countermagic in his 35 cards, and the next player had Basalt Monolith/Rings of Brighthearth/Sensei's Divining Top combo on his turn.

[kombatkiwi]

In my non optimised arcum list the average goldfish turn is about 5.
With a better decklist I can see this being reduced to 4 but I wouldnt expect it to go any lower - and that arcum deck is certainly on the ridiculous end of the scale. The potential for turn 3 kills with this is certainly interesting.

You can play it as mono B with him as the general , which probably makes it faster but weaker to countermagic. I can see a deck with griselbrand as a general getting seriously destroyed by something like a daze - once you've invested all these mana vaults and rituals into your 8-mana demon, if it gets countered once I dont think the deck will be able to recover.

If you compare this to arcum (or oona or another blue combo general)
-Slower goldfish
-More resilient to countermagic (based on resolving cheaper spells, plays own counterspells)

So depending on how blue your opponents are, playing griselbrand as a general may not necessarily be the correct call over the current combo decks.

Shoehorning griselbrand into a deck and going entomb-reanimate or sneak attacking it or whatever really isnt that much different to decks that exist already, so im not concerned. Time will tell I suppose.

On the flip side, it is yawgmoths bargain, which is banned already, and this is arguably easier to reliably put into play because it's a creature.

If you dont think this should be banned, should they unban bargain?

[socialite]

I was going to write a rebuttal, but I thought it would be more prudent to ask you if you've played even a single game of EDH with or against a competent player running a deck designed to abuse Griselbrand? I have, and it's miserable. It's not that Griselbrand decks can't lose, or even that they win too many games (I don't have enough data to determine that yet). It's that once he's out, and this is often turn three or four, it's herp, derp draw 28-35 cards, use free countermagic to stop you from stopping me and win with some combo on my turn. Every game except one I've played where a Griselbrand hit the table, the player who got him out won. The exception was one time he didn't draw any free countermagic in his 35 cards, and the next player had Basalt Monolith/Rings of Brighthearth/Sensei's Divining Top combo on his turn.

Free counters in Mono Black?

Honestly I wonder if you even play EDH; every other post you write is a variant on how busted X general is/the sky is falling, I cannot continue to take you seriously.

If you are talking about running him not as a general but in another shell (which is not what we have been focusing on) then see Kiwi's post because that's pretty much what I've been trying to say since the start of this thread.

Oh and my pod has been testing a version of the list posted by Mckowen and it's just as fragile as other non Blue combo decks. In fact I'd argue it gives you a lot less options then playing more colors and a General that doesn't drop games to Pithing Needle.

[Bruedetour]

Free counters in Mono Black?

Honestly I wonder if you even play EDH; every other post you write is a variant on how busted X general is/the sky is falling, I cannot continue to take you seriously.

If you are talking about running him not as a general but in another shell (which is not what we have been focusing on) then see Kiwi's post because that's pretty much what I've been trying to say since the start of this thread.

Oh and my pod has been testing a version of the list posted by Mckowen and it's just as fragile as other non Blue combo decks. In fact I'd argue it gives you a lot less options then playing more colors and a General that doesn't drop games to Pithing Needle.

In my group if you dont drop needle on griselbrand you lose to griselbrand. If you do drop said needle you lose to salvager bomb combo, hermit druid combo, or my personal favorite since he is my general of choice Arcum combo. It's all deciding what you want to lose to but all of the decks other than arcum run reanimate packages focusing on griselbrand. Tutor targets are almost allways the same 1.)entomb 2) Reanimate spell 3.)then you lose. I know this is a thread about how good Griselbrand is as a general which i agree is really fragile but as a card in general he is exactly what kombatkiwi said, Yawgmoths bargain. He is Yawg Bargain that is easier to get out with life link if griselbrand is not a problem then neither is yawg bargain while we're at it lets un ban tolarian acadamy and gifts ungiven. I mean you can wasteland tolarian acadamy does that mean its not too strong? You can counter gifts ungiven, you can naturalise or needle bargain but they are still banned for good reason.

[apistat_commander]

So it seems that the somewhat consensus of the thread is that Griselbrand is best in the 99 of a deck helmed by another general than as the centerpiece of a deck. I could definitely see that. I wonder if it is really worth putting any time into brewing with him if other's results indicate that he is OP and a likely candidate for banning.

[socialite]

So it seems that the somewhat consensus of the thread is that Griselbrand is best in the 99 of a deck helmed by another general than as the centerpiece of a deck. I could definitely see that. I wonder if it is really worth putting any time into brewing with him if other's results indicate that he is OP and a likely candidate for banning.

I'd imagine you have some time before any banning and I would agree that he is better suited as part of a U/B/x based build rather than the focus of a Mono Black build.

[Kuma]

Honestly I wonder if you even play EDH

I was wondering the same thing about you. I play anywhere from 5-15 games in an ultra-competitive playgroup per week.


every other post you write is a variant on how busted X general is/the sky is falling, I cannot continue to take you seriously.

Are you suggesting there aren't overpowered generals or cards that are significantly more powerful than all other strategies?


If you are talking about running him not as a general but in another shell (which is not what we have been focusing on) then see Kiwi's post because that's pretty much what I've been trying to say since the start of this thread.

Yeah, I'm talking about running him in a shell that can better protect him.

The relevant parts of kombatkiwi's post:


Shoehorning griselbrand into a deck and going entomb-reanimate or sneak attacking it or whatever really isnt that much different to decks that exist already, so im not concerned. Time will tell I suppose.

On the flip side, it is yawgmoths bargain, which is banned already, and this is arguably easier to reliably put into play because it's a creature.

If you dont think this should be banned, should they unban bargain?

How many two card combos are there that collectively cost three mana that say "you win" if they resolve? It's also a lot less vulnerable than most combos in EDH, as it can only be answered by countermagic, graveyard hate, or Pithing Needle effects.

Why don't you give me some examples of EDH-legal combos that are "similar" to reanimating Griselbrand?

Also, you should answer kombatkiwi's question. If Griselbrand shouldn't be banned, should they unban Yawgmoth's Bargain? You like to criticize people who say the banned list should be something other than what it currently is. Why don't you tell us what you think the banned list should be? It's easy to criticize other people's opinions without giving your own. What's the matter? Afraid you're going to look stupid?


Oh and my pod has been testing a version of the list posted by Mckowen and it's just as fragile as other non Blue combo decks. In fact I'd argue it gives you a lot less options then playing more colors and a General that doesn't drop games to Pithing Needle.

I won't argue this, because I haven't tested a mono-black Griselbrand deck. I think he might be a problem in blue decks that can protect him. It has sped up every blue deck we've put him in by around a turn while boosting consistency.

Even if he turns out not to be too powerful, Griselbrand makes the game about who can get him out first and protect him. If you think that's fun, more power to you, but I don't and I suspect most EDH players don't. I'm going to continue to test him, but that sounds like a recipe for a ban.

But I don't suppose you'll read the previous paragraphs and actually try to understand what I'm saying. You'll just keep ranting about how I have no skill and how I'm screaming that the sky is falling, even though I haven't said Griselbrand should be banned.

[Amon Amarth]

In regards to Bargain, it is significantly easier to cast, costing a whole BB less, and has more widespread applications. I would probably jam it into my 5 color Control deck pretty easily. Or any control deck sporting a Black commander. Bargain would be much more ubiquitous than GB.

[Bruedetour]

In regards to Bargain, it is significantly easier to cast, costing a whole BB less, and has more widespread applications. I would probably jam it into my 5 color Control deck pretty easily. Or any control deck sporting a Black commander. Bargain would be much more ubiquitous than GB.

again you assume you have to pay the mana. In most shells Griselbrand doesnt get cast he gets cheated in you cant cheat bargain in as easily. Also give bargain a once per turn you can gain 7 life clause and it would be alot more busted.

[Amon Amarth]

again you assume you have to pay the mana. In most shells Griselbrand doesnt get cast he gets cheated in you cant cheat bargain in as easily. Also give bargain a once per turn you can gain 7 life clause and it would be alot more busted.

You can reanimate him but then you also open yourself up to GY hate being another hoop to jump through. Plus, GB isn't going to have a long life span since creatures are much easier to remove. I don't imagine he will get to attack very often, rendering his lifelink ability moot. It doesn't really matter that Bargain costs six since it is a perfectly reasonable casting cost in this format, especially for that effect.

[TsumiBand]

Are you suggesting there aren't overpowered generals or cards that are significantly more powerful than all other strategies?



Yeah, I'm talking about running him in a shell that can better protect him.

The relevant parts of kombatkiwi's post:



How many two card combos are there that collectively cost three mana that say "you win" if they resolve? It's also a lot less vulnerable than most combos in EDH, as it can only be answered by countermagic, graveyard hate, or Pithing Needle effects.

Why don't you give me some examples of EDH-legal combos that are "similar" to reanimating Griselbrand?

Also, you should answer kombatkiwi's question. If Griselbrand shouldn't be banned, should they unban Yawgmoth's Bargain? You like to criticize people who say the banned list should be something other than what it currently is. Why don't you tell us what you think the banned list should be? It's easy to criticize other people's opinions without giving your own. What's the matter? Afraid you're going to look stupid?



I won't argue this, because I haven't tested a mono-black Griselbrand deck. I think he might be a problem in blue decks that can protect him. It has sped up every blue deck we've put him in by around a turn while boosting consistency.

Even if he turns out not to be too powerful, Griselbrand makes the game about who can get him out first and protect him. If you think that's fun, more power to you, but I don't and I suspect most EDH players don't. I'm going to continue to test him, but that sounds like a recipe for a ban.

But I don't suppose you'll read the previous paragraphs and actually try to understand what I'm saying. You'll just keep ranting about how I have no skill and how I'm screaming that the sky is falling, even though I haven't said Griselbrand should be banned.

Comparing him to Bargain is entirely relevant and as a community most of us have been doing that since the day it was spoiled. I also agree that he's worse as a General than he is as just another card in the deck; cheating him into play just changes the entire dynamic of the game into "who controls Griselbrand proceeds to win", and that's been the tipping point in EDH banned lists for guys like Emrakul.

[Tacosnape]

Griselbrand's only a little better than Necropotence, anyway. Necro's costing three covers the drawbacks of not being able to draw with it normally, not having the lifelink, and not being a general.

Not advocating that it shouldn't be banned. It should. Commander where I play is all about who gets the 1 life per card effect. Which kills the format. Both of them should get the axe.

As to how to stop it, I'm right now a firm believer that everybody not actually playing black should be playing a Pithing Needle. It's hard to countertuck Griselbrand because most of the builds I play with manage to just tutor up Cavern of Souls. But if everybody's got a Needle handy, stopping Griselbrand/Necropotence is at least plausible. Among other ways to do it include Suppression Field, Cursed Totem, Damping Matrix, Phyrexian Revoker, and Linvala, Keeper of Silence. Play these cards.

[JonBarber]

Complaining about "broken" in a place that's supposed to be a competitive forum is dumb. If your play group doesn't like it or can't handle it, ban it within your group or don't play against it. In the mean time, lets focus on making it the best it can.

Working off the scg list here: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/commander/23076_Dear_Azami_The_Worst_Thing_You_Can_Still_Do_To_People.html

I made the following changes:
-3 Snow Covered Swamp - 29 felt a little heavy to me, you really only need 1 or 2 swamps
-1 Rishadan Port - I'd rather be winning than spending my time porting them
-1 Winding Canyons - Only good at casting Griselbrand instant speed, which is meh
-1 Mind Twist - I don't like dumping my mana into this when I can just win the game

+1 Lion's Eye Diamond (OP talked about adding it)
+1 Imperial Seal (OP talked about adding it)
+1 Grim Tutor (OP talked about adding it)
+1 Dark Confidant - Card is insane on turn 2 or when you're behind. Great when you need to play slowly
+1 Ancient Tomb - Untapped land that adds 2? Should have been an obvious inclusion
+1 Thoughtsieze - I cut mindtwist for this. It's rare that you need to pluck more than 1 card from their hand

[JonBarber]

Welp, GG, Griselbanned