"Little" Spells and EDH

[Davran]

I'm curious what everyone's opinion of "little" spells like Brainstorm, Ponder and Preordain in EDH is, particularly in non-combo decks.

I've been trying them out recently in my Intet, the Dreamer build, and so far the results have been pretty positive.

[Kuma]

If you're running a three-color deck with all the fetchlands and lots of tutors, you can probably run Brainstorm. I don't run Ponder or Preordain, because the nature of the format makes it too difficult to evaluate what a random card from your deck is worth.

[Davran]

If you're running a three-color deck with all the fetchlands and lots of tutors, you can probably run Brainstorm. I don't run Ponder or Preordain, because the nature of the format makes it too difficult to evaluate what a random card from your deck is worth.

A good point. Of the three, Brainstorm has been the most lack-luster for exactly the reason you describe. I find Ponder and Preordain to be better, especially in a deck where what's on top of your library matters like Intet. Sometimes a random card is better than another land, and I think it's those situations where they really shine.

[guilty party]

personally i find brainstorm and ponder to be slightly weak in this format and i prefer cards that stick around for card draw cards like carnage alter and skull clamp work great especially if you make a few tokens with your deck.

i agree with above that it becomes too hard to evaluate what one card will be worth unless it just happens to be that one card you need.

i find destruction to be a more useful way to go with cards like krosan grip, aura of silence, and dispeller's capsule at the top of my i wish i had this card in my hand list when i play.

brainstorm and ponder may get you one of those but with 100 cards odds are it won't

[Davran]

personally i find brainstorm and ponder to be slightly weak in this format and i prefer cards that stick around for card draw cards like carnage alter and skull clamp work great especially if you make a few tokens with your deck.

I agree with you, but I think you're missing my point. Anything that can be used more than once is especially wonderful in this format. I'm not considering replacing something like Rhystic Study with Ponder. Rather, I'm looking to use Ponder to potentially make my other draw spells more effective.

Consider the following scenario: It's turn 12 of a particularly long game. You have enough mana to cast any spell in your deck, but your board position is somewhat weak. You have your General in play, and a Sensei's Divining Top that you're hoping to use to find some action. You spin the top, and see two lands and a Ponder. In this situation, Ponder is exactly what you need. It allows you to shuffle away those lands and potentially find something much more relevant.


i agree with above that it becomes too hard to evaluate what one card will be worth unless it just happens to be that one card you need.

This is the best part of EDH for me - trying to anticipate what may be coming from the other three guys sitting down across from you. So sure, revealing a Krosan Grip and a land off of your Preordain when there are no artifacts on the field may not be the best, but I'd rather have the Grip in my hand than the land I would otherwise have drawn.


brainstorm and ponder may get you one of those but with 100 cards odds are it won't

Using cantrips to dig for answers is absolutely the wrong approach in this format. If you're hunting for a Krosan Grip, Mystical Tutor is your card. I think the best use of the cantrip spells is to smooth out your draws in the early or late game - make sure you hit your land drops early and make sure that you draw business instead of bricks late.

[Kuma]

Consider the following scenario: It's turn 12 of a particularly long game. You have enough mana to cast any spell in your deck, but your board position is somewhat weak. You have your General in play, and a Sensei's Divining Top that you're hoping to use to find some action. You spin the top, and see two lands and a Ponder. In this situation, Ponder is exactly what you need. It allows you to shuffle away those lands and potentially find something much more relevant.

It's worth noting that any tutor does the same thing here except that you get to pick the card you want instead of getting a random one. If you're going to run Ponder, you'd better have maxed out on tutors first.

[Aggro_zombies]

It's worth noting that any tutor does the same thing here except that you get to pick the card you want instead of getting a random one. If you're going to run Ponder, you'd better have maxed out on tutors first.
If you're not in tutor colors, Ponder is good enough. Most of the tutors outside of black suck unless you're a green-based creature deck, and UG/x Dudes.deck doesn't really need something like Ponder to generate card advantage (or increase card quality, however you want to look at it).

I would consider Ponder in, say, my UW deck because there aren't a lot of other options: you're either running a pricier "Draw [some number of] cards" spell, or Sensei's Divining Top and maybe Scroll Rack.

But Ponder and its ilk are usually pretty mediocre outside of some sort of storm deck.

And like I said in the reddit thread, one-for-ones that exile are usually good because of how much recursion there is.

[kombatkiwi]

It depebds on your mana curve
If you dont have much do to in the early turns of the game you can rectify that by cutting some expensive spells for these cantrips

I would never cut something like rhystic study for it though because its just too powerful of a card

It also depends how reliably your deck can access shuffle effects, how important tthe top card of your library is, and the opportunity cost of cutting the other card (eg in decks with genesis wave, warp eorld, survival, a high density of the correct card type must be maintained for these cards to be effective.)

[Scordata]

I prefer frantic search and friends as filter cards. But then again, I'm in UB.

[Offler]

There are three basic usages of those little cards. Opening on first turn, checking top of library after tutoring or accelerating card draw. Ponder also allows to shuffle when the incoming cards are too bad.

I have decided to replace Ponder with Cephalid coliseum and I recommend people to play also Attunement. Draw and discard is underestimated because people use to drop too many cards into play at once.

Careful study for example is almost unknown.

The trick with those cards is similar as with Brainstorm. If you have a lot of cards on hand your decision for discarding is then easier.

[kombatkiwi]

There are three basic usages of those little cards. Opening on first turn, checking top of library after tutoring or accelerating card draw. Ponder also allows to shuffle when the incoming cards are too bad.

I have decided to replace Ponder with Cephalid coliseum and I recommend people to play also Attunement. Draw and discard is underestimated because people use to drop too many cards into play at once.

Careful study for example is almost unknown.

The trick with those cards is similar as with Brainstorm. If you have a lot of cards on hand your decision for discarding is then easier.

Attunement is garbage imo
3 mana minus 1? No thanks. Compare it to frantic search, faithless looting etc
Careful study is good though if youre packing graveyard interactions

[kicks_422]

There are no little spells, only little players.

Sorry, had to say it.

[Offler]

Attunement is garbage imo
3 mana minus 1? No thanks. Compare it to frantic search, faithless looting etc
Careful study is good though if youre packing graveyard interactions

Easy as that.

Frantic search 2U
Draw two cards, then discard two cards. Untap up to three lands.

0 mana if resolves, 3 if countered. -1 card on hand also since Frantic search is instant.

Attunement will bounce itself as a part of its effect. so its
Draw three cards, then discard four cards.

Frantic search cost you 3 mana (later untapped) and 1 card to cast since its instant.
Attumenent cost you 3 mana, and 0 card to cast (since its bounced back).


In both cases you have -1 card on hand when effect resolves. People just read "draw two, discard two" on instant spell and "draw three, discard four" on selfbouncing enchantment. And thats exactly the trick about attunement.

[kombatkiwi]

Im assuming my shitty draw spell will resolve I dont know anybody who would counter any of these so:

Frantic Search
Pay 3 mana, get 2 cards, lose 2 cards, lose the frantic search, get 3 mana (or even more mana if you have ancient tomb or something.) So it's minus 1 card and minus 0 mana.

Attunement
Pay 3 mana. Get 3 cards, lose 4 cards. Its still a minus 1 even though you dont lose the attunement. The fact that it returns to your hand is irrelevant because why on earth would you want to keep casting 3 mana careful studies - a good deck should really be making much more efficient use of its mana.

Remeber the forecast mechanic from ravnica block? If there was a card with forecast 2U, draw 3 discard 4, it wouldnt be very giod either, and its basically the same thing

[Offler]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+[forecast]

I just know that Skyscribing can cause each player to draw a a card. There is no such effect on forecast...

Combo decks or self milling decks will like to do this action even for 3 mana. This is a good choice when you have parts of combo already on table, but one piece is missing. In EDH when you have a lots of mana, a repeatable spell which gives you 3 new cards for 3 mana is still good deal if you have full hand.

For me Attunement is also catalyst which might help to ignite combo centered around Mind over Matter. Of course cards like Bazaar of Baghdad or Magus of the Bazaar do similar action at virtually no mana cost, but repeatability is not as easy.