[Premium Article] Breaking Temporal Mastery in Legacy -- SMIP Eternal Set Review

[Smmenen]

It's been a long while since I wrote a set review with Legacy in mind. This article is a joint Legacy and Vintage set review, although most of the cards reviewed are for Vintage, the vast majority of the key discussion is Legacy, largely, although not exclusively, on account of Temporal Mastery.

In this article I unveil the THREE Legacy Delver / Temporal Mastery decks I've designed and been testing.

I'm convinced that at least two of them are either broken or on the track to be broken. These are the most broken Legacy decks I've played since Hulk Flash (and I was one of the first to play that deck too!).

I learned alot from my initial lists, and I explain my testing results and findings within. Notice how my most broken versions abuse multiple printings from this set.

You'll also not want to miss the Legacy "Belcher" deck I designed around Reforge the Soul!

Check it out!

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2676

[Mr.C]

It's been a long while since I wrote a set review with Legacy in mind. This article is a joint Legacy and Vintage set review, although most of the cards reviewed are for Vintage, the vast majority of the key discussion is Legacy, largely, although not exclusively, on account of Temporal Mastery.

In this article I unveil the THREE Legacy Delver / Temporal Mastery decks I've designed and been testing.

I'm convinced that at least two of them are either broken or on the track to be broken. These are the most broken Legacy decks I've played since Hulk Flash (and I was one of the first to play that deck too!).

I learned alot from my initial lists, and I explain my testing results and findings within. Notice how my most broken versions abuse multiple printings from this set.

You'll also not want to miss the Legacy "Belcher" deck I designed around Reforge the Soul!

Check it out!

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2676

Most broken since Hulk Flash? That's surprising.

[lordofthepit]

Most broken since Hulk Flash? That's surprising.

Well, he did qualify that with most broken decks he's played.

[majikal]

There appears to be a mistake with your link. It says I have to pay money to see it.

[xfxf]

For only $2.99 you can also see the most broken Legacy decks since Hulk Flash, you can be broken too!

I thought advertisement was not allowed here.

[rxavage]

No offense, but your belcher deck has nothing on the combo deck I will be unleashing soon :)

[theillest]

I think this is a stupid test. Hint: if you see the more than the free excerpt, you failed. You'd be better off spending $3 on lotto tickets.

[Mr Miagi]

That's bad, m-kay

[Smmenen]

There have been alot of broken decks since Hulk Flash, but none that remotely reaches that level of absurdity (and I placed in the top 20 of Grand Prix Columbus with Hulk Flash). I am not claiming that this is in that league, but this is quite broken.

The synergies between the Delver creature arrays (including a new printing from Avacyn), and Temporal Mastery are truly devastating from a tempo perspective -- hence my builds in this article.

As for other truly broken decks, I don't even think the Survival and Reanimator decks that caused bannings were as broken as, say, Iggy Pop or Ad Nauseam in their original iterations. Remember, Wizards sent me all of the decks from GP Madrid when Ad Nauseam won.

I truly believe that the Delver decks I've published here will be tearing up SCG Open Top 8s very soon...

I know that may sound like hype, but the reality is that Delver decks are already top performers. Temporal Mastery -- at a minimum -- is a blue, cantrip Lightning Bolt with any one of these creatures in play. And these Delver decks often run Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning.

This strategy article attempts to explain why these decks are so broken, describes my findings and testing, and then reveals my suggested decklists.

[Smmenen]

No offense, but your belcher deck has nothing on the combo deck I will be unleashing soon :)

I should qualify that these "belcher" decks no longer have Belcher. Reforge the Soul means you can reliably just execute huge turn one and two Empties every game.

[Fuzzy]

Delver is close to be the next Hulk-Flash, Survival and Mystical-powered Reanimator/ANT wasn't thaaaaat good.

Yeah, makes perfect sense.

[DragoFireheart]

Delver is close to be the next Hulk-Flash, Survival and Mystical-powered Reanimator/ANT wasn't thaaaaat good.

Yeah, makes perfect sense.

Actually, Mystic powered Reanimator/ANT didn't take that many Top 8's IIRC. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Norm]

I should qualify that these "belcher" decks no longer have Belcher. Reforge the Soul means you can reliably just execute huge turn one and two Empties every game.

So it's now a combo deck that relies almost entirely upon the attack step after successfully fighting through storm hate? Where to put moneys? I must bai!

[Koby]

Actually, Mystic powered Reanimator/ANT didn't take that many Top 8's IIRC. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Just because LaPille played it in the MTGO Casual room doesn't make it a casual deck.

RE article
I didn't read the full article but just the preview long enough to see a fallacy. Your premise of Mastery being Zomg broken is based on a line of plays that is already stressing the limits of tempo. Adding a two mana, turn three tempo card isn't going to make that Line of play any better. Turn 1 delver, turn 2 flip and <Bolt/Daze/Fow/Stifle/Pierce> is more than enough to win games right now. Wasting Brainstorm to setup a Miracle is an abysmal use of the cant rip rather than using it to fix your draws and improve hand quality.

Legacy decks are attempting to streamline decks for consistency rather than cute tricks. Mastery is of the latter while at the same time reducing consistency (induce more mulligans). I don't agree with the premise that Temporal Mastery is the next coming of Hulk Flash.

[DragoFireheart]

Just because LaPille played it in the MTGO Casual room doesn't make it a casual deck.

I'm talking about actual tournament results, not what LaPille did in his free time. I'm pretty sure IBA had some data in this subject.

[Smmenen]

Delver is close to be the next Hulk-Flash, Survival and Mystical-powered Reanimator/ANT wasn't thaaaaat good.

Yeah, makes perfect sense.



The term "broken" is obviously and explicitly ambiguous. I never said Delver is the next Hulk-Flash. What I said is that it's the most broken deck I've played since.

Of course the Survival and Reanimator decks were good. I never said otherwise. Survival dominated the format as measured by Top 8 performance. What I was saying is that they weren't "broken" like Hulk Flash.

Temporal Mastery is broken because it's inherently unfair. I don't know whether Temporal Mastery decks -- or specifically the decks in my article -- will end up dominating the format long-term. But I can say, after testing, that they are broken, as I understand and use that term. They are unfair and unfun to play against.

It's more like a Vintage deck. Your opponent sits there while you play uninteractive games.

[DragoFireheart]

But I can say, after testing, that they are broken, as I understand and use that term. They are unfair and unfun to play against.

Demands for decklist/data in 3...2...1...

[Smmenen]

Just because LaPille played it in the MTGO Casual room doesn't make it a casual deck.

RE article
I didn't read the full article but just the preview long enough to see a fallacy. Your premise of Mastery being Zomg broken is based on a line of plays that is already stressing the limits of tempo. Adding a two mana, turn three tempo card isn't going to make that Line of play any better. Turn 1 delver, turn 2 flip and <Bolt/Daze/Fow/Stifle/Pierce> is more than enough to win games right now. Wasting Brainstorm to setup a Miracle is an abysmal use of the cant rip rather than using it to fix your draws and improve hand quality.

Legacy decks are attempting to streamline decks for consistency rather than cute tricks. Mastery is of the latter while at the same time reducing consistency (induce more mulligans). I don't agree with the premise that Temporal Mastery is the next coming of Hulk Flash.

Mastery does not induce more mulligans. As I said in the article, there wasn't a single game where I was upset to draw a Temporal mastery, and every time I pitched one to Force, it was reluctant.

Moreover, Temporal Mastery is a natural fit into the deck you described. It's a smooth and natural addition, according to my testing, which I describe in this article. If you run Lightning Bolt, which at least two of my Delver/Mastery decks do, Temporal Mastery is just better: it's a blue Lightning Bolt that cantrips and helps you do more Stifling, Spell Snare/Daze/Piercing, Bolting, etc. It also helps you get another land drop to use Snapcaster Mage, etc.

In other words, it fits with all the cards you cite, and supports them very well.

[Smmenen]

Demands for decklist/data in 3...2...1...

Why do you think I wrote this article? :p

[xfxf]

I don't want to be cruel but "financial gain and market manipulation" are the words which come to my mind. I listened to the set review podcast and you sounded to be skeptical about the card and halfway through changed your stance and started saying "yeah, I agree it's going to be very good..". I don't intend to claim that the card is bad but just that I don't find your claims honest and sincere.

[DragoFireheart]

Why do you think I wrote this article? :p

dontbiteitholmes and Co. will still say that their testing shows otherwise. Honestly, it's all moot regardless.

Let people play with Temporal Mastery. People will either be ok or people will bitch and moan about how some blue deck getting extra turns and winning the game and then our local Hydra will blame Force of Will for making Temporal Mastery too good. No amount of data or inductive reasoning from either party is going to convince the other side. Everyone entering this topic already has their mind set on what they think is the right answer. It's going to take a month or so before we actually see how potent Temporal Mastery is. I don't think anyone knew exactly how powerful Vengvial was until it started showing results. It's going to be the same for TM and the other miracle cards. Maybe they will be too powerful. Maybe the miracle drawback will keep them in check. Anyone that claims to know for sure beyond speculation doesn't know, no offense.

As a shift slightly of topic, will Temporal Mastery see play in Vintage? Considering that the argument many anti-TM people make is that Legacy can't use the extra turns as well as Vintage, that leads me to believe that TM will see some play in Vintage. Slash Panther sees play, so it's not that much of a stretch...

[Smmenen]

I don't want to be cruel but "financial gain and market manipulation" are the words which come to my mind. I listened to the set review podcast and you sounded to be skeptical about the card and halfway through changed your stance and started saying "yeah, I agree it's going to be very good..". I don't intend to claim that the card is bad but just that I don't find your claims honest and sincere.

You are mistaken. I never expressed skepticism about Temporal Mastery in the podcast. I repeatedly described how broken it was going to me. You must be confusing Temporal Mastery with some other card we discussed.

Remember, in the podcast, we took Pro or Con positions, and I was the Pro for Temporal Mastery. So it makes little sense that I would have been critical of a card I was pro on. You must be confusing Temporal Mastery with Griselbrand, which I was assigned "Con" on, despite the fact that I think it's amazing in Vintage.

Financial Disclosure: I don't own any Temporal Mastery, nor have I ordered any. So, I don't make any money on speculating on Temporal Mastery.

[Smmenen]

dontbiteitholmes and Co. will still say that their testing shows otherwise. Honestly, it's all moot regardless.

Let people play with Temporal Mastery. People will either be ok or people will bitch and moan about how some blue deck getting extra turns and winning the game and then our local Hydra will blame Force of Will for making Temporal Mastery too good. No amount of data or inductive reasoning from either party is going to convince the other side. Everyone entering this topic already has their mind set on what they think is the right answer. It's going to take a month or so before we actually see how potent Temporal Mastery is. I don't think anyone knew exactly how powerful Vengvial was until it started showing results. It's going to be the same for TM and the other miracle cards. Maybe they will be too powerful. Maybe the miracle drawback will keep them in check. Anyone that claims to know for sure beyond speculation doesn't know, no offense.

As a shift slightly of topic, will Temporal Mastery see play in Vintage? Considering that the argument many anti-TM people make is that Legacy can't use the extra turns as well as Vintage, that leads me to believe that TM will see some play in Vintage. Slash Panther sees play, so it's not that much of a stretch...

I agree with some of what you say, but it's not moot. I'm not trying to persuade skeptics.

The main motivation for me for writing this article for Legacy players was to be one of the first to propose and suggest how to build Temporal Mastery decks that would most abuse this card. I wanted to be a part of the conversation.

[DragoFireheart]

The main motivation for me for writing this article for Legacy players was to be one of the first to propose and suggest how to build Temporal Mastery decks that would most abuse this card. I wanted to be a part of the conversation.

Well I can't see your build and I have a personal rule to never spend money on MTG articles. I suggested to the SneakNShow topic to use Temporal Mastery but it got shot down quickly.

As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I've heard people shooting down TM for Reanimator, RuG, StoneBlade, and SneakNShow.

[Smmenen]

Well I can't see your build and I have a personal rule to never spend money on MTG articles. I suggested to the SneakNShow topic to use Temporal Mastery but it got shot down quickly.

As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I've heard people shooting down TM for Reanimator, RuG, StoneBlade, and SneakNShow.

There is a reason all of my Temporal Mastery lists are Delver decks...

I would shoot down those approaches as well. As always, I explain all in this article.

[xfxf]

Financial Disclosure: I don't own any Temporal Mastery, nor have I ordered any. So, I don't make any money on speculating on Temporal Mastery.

My comment about financial gain was directed at the article being premium.

I have to go back and listen to the podcast again but I know for a fact that I'm not confusing it with another card. The other guy (sorry, don't know his name) went back to TM when you started talking about Griselbrand beause he just couldn't get enough of it. That's when you started to agree with most of his points and before that I had you on the "good but not so broken really" side. I clearly thought that you changed your take on it just so that you could hush him up and go on with the rest of the cast.

[Smmenen]

My comment abaout financial gain was directed at the article being premium.

I have to go back and listen to the podcast again but I know for a fact that I'm not confusing it with another card. The other guy (sorry, don't know his name) went back to TM when you started talking about Griselbrand beause he just couldn't get enough of it. That's when you started to agree with most of his points and before that I had you on the "good but not so broken really" side. I clearly thought that you changed your take on it just so that you could hush him up and go on with the rest of the cast.

LOL you've actually confused me with Kevin. I was the guy who went back to TM when we started talking about the red Planeswalker.

You didn't confuse the cards, but you did confuse me with Kevin. I am "the other guy." LOL

[xfxf]

Ok, that clarifies it. Sorry for the confusion.

Edit: I think that's pretty funny :laugh:

[joemauer]

There is a reason all of my Temporal Mastery lists are Delver decks...

I would shoot down those approaches as well. As always, I explain all in this article.

Could you just copy and paste your article on these forums for us. That would make it easier on us.

[DragoFireheart]

Could you just copy and paste your article on these forums for us. That would make it easier on us.

He wants us to pay $3 for the article.

[Gui]

Honestly, it's taking too long for people to start testing TM in Canadian UGr. It's not even hard to come up with lists for that, just copy/paste winning Threshold UGr lists and remove 4 random for 4TM to test. They have all the manipulation and the aggressiveness for it to be useful already.

[wcm8]

Honestly, it's taking too long for people to start testing TM in Canadian UGr. It's not even hard to come up with lists for that, just copy/paste winning Threshold UGr lists and remove 4 random for 4TM to test. They have all the manipulation and the aggressiveness for it to be useful already.

I think BUG would actually be the better Thresh-style deck to fit TM into. BUG decks tend to be more proactively disruptive (Hymn to Tourach, 1CMC targeted discard) in comparison to RUG's reactive disruption (Stifle/Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, etc.). An utterly broken play I could imagine with TM would be back-to-back Hymn to Tourachs. Modern Team America builds also run Liliana and/or Jace TMS which would be another method of taking advantage of additional turns beyond the combat step.

[Einherjer]

What I can tell you from serious tests: TM is not broken in BUG Control! At the moment im trying it in BUG Midrange - and as you mentioned its quite powerful there - but Ill tell you all later once I finished testing!

[Finn]

Honestly, it's taking too long for people to start testing TM in Canadian UGr. It's not even hard to come up with lists for that, just copy/paste winning Threshold UGr lists and remove 4 random for 4TM to test. They have all the manipulation and the aggressiveness for it to be useful already.This is my biggest beef with the card, and frankly the Miracle mechanic. It does not stoke innovation or creativity. At best it gets the format meandering in a direction around the card. At worst, it totally stifles diversity. The decks that can use the card best already exist.

Stephen, I fully expected to see this article from you. Now that you have signed off on its brokenness, I consider it mostly a done deal. Does anyone know for sure if this is an intentional bid to rid us of Brainstorm? Or is the game's design run by dolts? If Miracle get brainstorm banned and people start playing Scroll Rack and Magma Jet in midrange decks, I would consider the mechanic a success. But the format is going to suck eggs until then.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think BUG would actually be the better Thresh-style deck to fit TM into. BUG decks tend to be more proactively disruptive (Hymn to Tourach, 1CMC targeted discard) in comparison to RUG's reactive disruption (Stifle/Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, etc.). An utterly broken play I could imagine with TM would be back-to-back Hymn to Tourachs. Modern Team America builds also run Liliana and/or Jace TMS which would be another method of taking advantage of additional turns beyond the combat step.
The problem with Temporal Mastery is that people are so enamored with the concept of Time Walk that they will stick it into decks for which an extra turn is really nothing special. I mean, if my opponent sets up a turn three Mastery and all he gets out of it on average are an unflipped Delver, maybe an extra land, and another attack step, the deck is not Hulk Flash v. 2.0.

Decks like Bant that want to actively tap out more than 10% of the time stand to benefit most from an extra turn or two. A deck like RUG doesn't really leverage the card well unless you radically rework it to be some sort of tapout RUG deck.

EDIT: If it wasn't clear, I'm mostly echoing wcm8 here, which is why I quoted him.

[Smmenen]

The first deck I designed and tested tried to split the difference between tempo and control, as is described and can be seen in the article. However, I quickly discovered -- and this was a key finding -- that the absolute best way to maximize value out of Temporal Mastery is the attack step. That's why I run Devil, Guide, etc, with Delver in my other lists in this article.

If you aren't using Temporal Mastery to gain additional attacks, you aren't maximizing the value of the card in my opinion. That's why I think it's so strong in the hyper tempo Delver decks that are already dominating Legacy. Hence, all of the conclusions I draw in this article.

[baghdadbob]

I heard battle of wits deck broke the format this guy obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

[dontbiteitholmes]

dontbiteitholmes and Co. will still say that their testing shows otherwise. Honestly, it's all moot regardless.

Let people play with Temporal Mastery. People will either be ok or people will bitch and moan about how some blue deck getting extra turns and winning the game and then our local Hydra will blame Force of Will for making Temporal Mastery too good. No amount of data or inductive reasoning from either party is going to convince the other side. Everyone entering this topic already has their mind set on what they think is the right answer. It's going to take a month or so before we actually see how potent Temporal Mastery is. I don't think anyone knew exactly how powerful Vengvial was until it started showing results. It's going to be the same for TM and the other miracle cards. Maybe they will be too powerful. Maybe the miracle drawback will keep them in check. Anyone that claims to know for sure beyond speculation doesn't know, no offense.

As a shift slightly of topic, will Temporal Mastery see play in Vintage? Considering that the argument many anti-TM people make is that Legacy can't use the extra turns as well as Vintage, that leads me to believe that TM will see some play in Vintage. Slash Panther sees play, so it's not that much of a stretch...

Mastery seems terrible in Vintage. Don't forget that there you only get one Brainstorm and you can tutor up real Time Walk fairly easily if you want.

As I've said before I'm skeptical about Mastery being broken, but I'm certainly open to the possibility. I believe I've also said before that if it does turn out to be good it will probably be in some kind of UR or RUG Delver list. I'm very curious about the decks in the article but not so much that I'm willing to pay for them, so I'll just wait and see like everyone else.

My testing for Reforge the Souls also led to Belcher, but I don't think taking out Belchers is the answer. I'm probably more interested in this decklist. Reforge in my testing made Belcher much more consistent, but I think leaving in Belchers lets you still explode early more easily vs. blue decks without having to give them 7 more chances to draw into Force. Also I think Mindbreak Trap is going to see a lot more play if Belcher picks up Reforge and runs with it.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

anyone that claims to know for sure beyond speculation doesn't know, no offense.


tm lacks that. In fact, it's better than time walk as you can cast it on your opponents turn. The fact that you have to cast it the turn you draw it as your first draw is a minor drawback, what with brainstorm and jace being in the format.


lol

[Smmenen]

Mastery seems terrible in Vintage. Don't forget that there you only get one Brainstorm and you can tutor up real Time Walk fairly easily if you want.

As I've said before I'm skeptical about Mastery being broken, but I'm certainly open to the possibility. I believe I've also said before that if it does turn out to be good it will probably be in some kind of UR or RUG Delver list. I'm very curious about the decks in the article but not so much that I'm willing to pay for them, so I'll just wait and see like everyone else.

That's my conclusion as well. It's kinda funny how people were so resistant.

I'm confident that my lists, or something very close to them, will be putting up major Top 8 numbers soon. I just wanted to be one of the first to get good lists out there.




My testing for Reforge the Souls also led to Belcher, but I don't think taking out Belchers is the answer. I'm probably more interested in this decklist. Reforge in my testing made Belcher much more consistent, but I think leaving in Belchers lets you still explode early more easily vs. blue decks without having to give them 7 more chances to draw into Force. Also I think Mindbreak Trap is going to see a lot more play if Belcher picks up Reforge and runs with it.

By taking out Belcher, you get to add a few lands as well. My list actually has more than 2 lands!

You get plenty of answers to MBT with Gutteral Response, etc.

[Norm]

That's my conclusion as well. It's kinda funny how people were so resistant.

I'm confident that my lists, or something very close to them, will be putting up major Top 8 numbers soon. I just wanted to be one of the first to get good lists out there.


If this were true, you wouldn't be marketing your "premium" article here.

[Smmenen]

If this were true, you wouldn't be marketing your "premium" article here.

I'm not sure what you mean. I've always written premium, and I used to link them here all the time, going back to like 2005. My Hulk Flash articles were premium, my SCG open/ Grand Prix metagame reports were premium, my legacy deck primers, etc. etc.

[Norm]

I'm not sure what you mean. I've always written premium, and I used to link them here all the time, going back to like 2005. My Hulk Flash articles were premium, my SCG open metagame reports were premium, my legacy deck primers, etc. etc.

Just because you're consistent doesn't mean your previous statement is true. You want to capitalize on the large number of curious minds lurking in this forum. It bothered me that you attempted to Jedi your way around that by making a statement like "I just wanted to be one of the first to get a good list out there." which would imply that you're only trying to obtain recognition for your contributions to our community.

[Antonius]

haven't read the article but UB Tempo Thresh seems like it could be the best way to go with Temporal Mastery. You get decent removal, a much sturdier mana base, more dudes that fly, sorcery-speed disruption (hymns) that benefit from taking extra turns and a planes walker (liliana) that sits atop the Tempo Thresh curve.

Also, Fettergeist seems like a creature that could be playable in blue thresh/tempo archetypes. 3 mana for 3 flying power is a pretty good deal. And a 4-point ass that laughs at bolts and blocks delvers makes him even better. Could be good enough to open up more two-color tempo decks (UW or UB). I would play around with it, Delver and Tombstalker. Seems promising.

[DragoFireheart]

Just because you're consistent doesn't mean your previous statement is true. You want to capitalize on the large number of curious minds lurking in this forum. It bothered me that you attempted to Jedi your way around that by making a statement like "I just wanted to be one of the first to get a good list out there." which would imply that you're only trying to obtain recognition for your contributions to our community.

I agree. Smmenen appears to be marketing his article in this topic. Is marketing of any form allowed on The Source?

[Smmenen]

Just because you're consistent doesn't mean your previous statement is true. You want to capitalize on the large number of curious minds lurking in this forum. It bothered me that you attempted to Jedi your way around that by making a statement like "I just wanted to be one of the first to get a good list out there." which would imply that you're only trying to obtain recognition for your contributions to our community.

This is a premium strategy article, explaining my testing and describing the conclusions I've drawn.

I see nothing wrong with developing a decklist and writing about it for recognition. Why do you think I wrote about Hulk Flash or Iggy Pop for SCG Premium, all of which were linked here? If I wrote a tournament report, it would be the same thing.

If you don't want to buy a premium article, please don't feel compelled to do so. I wouldn't want you, for example, to feel like you had to buy one of Drew Levin's articles on SCG premium, or any other premium writer for any other website. This isn't a high pressure sale. If you are interested and want to spend 3 bucks, go for it. If not or can't afford it, don't. No biggie.

I'm happy to answer any questions about my testing or my findings, or any other point in this article.

[rxavage]

I should qualify that these "belcher" decks no longer have Belcher. Reforge the Soul means you can reliably just execute huge turn one and two Empties every game.


Ok my misunderstanding, and it sounds like we are both on the same page then.

[Smmenen]

haven't read the article but UB Tempo Thresh seems like it could be the best way to go with Temporal Mastery. You get decent removal, a much sturdier mana base, more dudes that fly, sorcery-speed disruption (hymns) that benefit from taking extra turns and a planes walker (liliana) that sits atop the Tempo Thresh curve.

Also, Fettergeist seems like a creature that could be playable in blue thresh/tempo archetypes. 3 mana for 3 flying power is a pretty good deal. And a 4-point ass that laughs at bolts and blocks delvers makes him even better. Could be good enough to open up more two-color tempo decks (UW or UB). I would play around with it, Delver and Tombstalker. Seems promising.

After testing various permutations, I'm firmly convinced red is necessary.

Not only does it give you Devil and Guide, but the burn suite as well, which is very strong with Snapcaster. Devil and Guide are devastating with Temporal Mastery.

[Norm]

This is a premium strategy article, explaining my testing and describing the conclusions I've drawn.

I see nothing wrong with developing a decklist and writing about it for recognition. Why do you think I wrote about Hulk Flash or Iggy Pop for SCG Premium, all of which were linked here? If I wrote a tournament report, it would be the same thing.

If you don't want to buy a premium article, please don't feel compelled to do so. I wouldn't want you, for example, to feel like you had to buy one of Drew Levin's articles on SCG premium, or any other premium writer for any other website. This isn't a high pressure sale. If you are interested and want to spend 3 bucks, go for it. If not or can't afford it, don't. No biggie.

I'm happy to answer any questions about my testing or my findings, or any other point in this article.

Drew Levin doesn't pop on to The Source and sell content to us. This website is great because of it's community, a group of players that share information so that we all become better as a result of intelligent discussion. If everyone were encouraged to horde their "new tech" and then market it around here, this website wouldn't be worth visiting.

[Finn]

Folks, the guy has been writing Legacy articles since the beginning. Before that he was a bigwig in vintage. He gets paid peanuts by SCG. Has it occurred to you that he just loves the game and loves to talk about it with other people who feel the same? He posts the links to get into conversations about a topic he likes.

I wish the articles were not premium, but they are. It is a badge of honor for him, and one he deserves many times over. Get past it.

[xfxf]

If you don't want to buy a premium article, please don't feel compelled to do so. I wouldn't want you, for example, to feel like you had to buy one of Drew Levin's articles on SCG premium, or any other premium writer for any other website. This isn't a high pressure sale. If you are interested and want to spend 3 bucks, go for it. If not or can't afford it, don't. No biggie.

I understand that since people are coming at you, you feel the need to strike back even if you try to make it in a subtle and elegant way but this is in fact funny. Most people here would and could just give out 3 bucks to someone just because they asked but they (and me) don't want to give 3 bucks just to read a single article about Magic even though it is from a well established Magic player. The idea is offensive you know. I'd rather give 3 bucks to someone just because they asked nicely :smile:

Plus Drew Levin (or the others) don't try to market their articles here. When you buy the SCG premium you are in for the whole package and anything can come out of it. With those guys you are not in for promises of undiscovered brokennes. I find this very sly and slightly disturbing to be honest.

[DragoFireheart]

Folks, the guy has been writing Legacy articles since the beginning. Before that he was a bigwig in vintage. He gets paid peanuts by SCG. Has it occurred to you that he just loves the game and loves to talk about it with other people who feel the same? He posts the links to get into conversations about a topic he likes.

I wish the articles were not premium, but they are. It is a badge of honor for him, and one he deserves many times over. Get past it.

Then I'll just wait for the information to be free and not discuss it until then.

[xfxf]

We do not entertain discussions on The Source about violating copyright laws.

[Star|Scream]

This card isn't good because you can cast Time walk on turn 3

This card is good because you can reliably cast Time Warp any time you choose after turn 2, even though your deck only runs 18 lands.

I don't know why people online all seem to believe Legacy games only last 3-4 turns. 2 "fair" decks usually have games that last many more turns.

Say you're at 12 life and your opponent is at 3. You've just swung and are tapped out. He has a 1/1 delver out. EOT Brainstorm, Untap, reveal TM, flip delver, cast TM, attack for 3, drop delver, next turn, reveal bolt, flip delver, attack for 6, bolt, gg.





It is a stupid, stupid card that only makes the current top blue decks better.

What I'd like to do is come up with tools to combat this until it (may?) gets banned.

Non blue decks have access to Teeg, but he will take a bolt to the face most of the time. Surgical extraction on an eot brainstorm (if they don't have a fetch out) isn't the worst play in the world.

playing silence or chant after a delver reveal seems funny, but it doesn't do anything to further your deck's game plan. It could save your life tho.

[Finn]

Yeah, but if our best method to combat this stuff is extracting Brainstorm and holding mana open for Chant against an aggro deck, the format is broken.

[Einherjer]

Do you really want to run TM in a deck with 18 lands? Have you ever played Canadian Threshold? It will take A LOT of turns to get you on 3 lands during your upkeep..

God...

[catmint]

I don't like that people think that everything from the internet has to be free... Whining about 3 dollars...lol...i give that as a tip to the guy who brings me lunch....the article contains a lot of information, has tons of innovative content based on testing and you get value out of it whether you a
gree or not.

[menace13]

I feel one of the better uses of TM is Cbalance/Jace decks, most likely in a Thopter shell.

[Star|Scream]

Do you really want to run TM in a deck with 18 lands? Have you ever played Canadian Threshold? It will take A LOT of turns to get you on 3 lands during your upkeep..

God...

That's the point. The deck should not be allowed to Time Warp if your deck is so dense.

You only need 2 lands to cast this.

You are supposed to have 2 lands on board and 1 in your hand.

[DrHealex]

I too am quite surprised. Especially, that the decklists havent been posted here either, at least with the article you can cry plagerism or something...
Truth be told, it is hard to have a useful discussions about restricted content since everyone isn't equally educated.

[wcm8]

I have some complaints about your decklists:

UGW:
-You're playing 3 Jace, TMS but only 19 lands and not even 1 Life from the Loam or any Noble Hierarchs. Jace is a fantastic late-game bomb, but I do not think this mana base can support 1-2 Jace, much less 3.
-You drop Wasteland in favor of Basics to help stabilize the mana-base. This would fine, except that you're still running tempo cards like Daze. Without Wasteland to back up these cards, they become incredibly weak outside of the first few turns, whereas other well-tuned tempo decks can leverage them for longer into the game.
-You also aren't comitting to one angle of attack with your counterspells, opting to go with a 2/2/2 split of the situational ones (Daze, Pierce, Snare). I think this is a weaker, less consistent approach than just going for a 4/2 or 3/3 split of the ones that are useful most often in this deck.

RUG:
-You drop Nimble Mongoose in favor of Vexing Devil. Do you even play this format?
-You mention that Snapcaster Mage may provide more tempo than Tarmogoyf. Hell no.
-You should be running 4 Volcanics and 3 Tropicals, not the other way around. Your only green card is Tarmogoyf, and you have far more red ones.

UR:
-This is probably the best decklist of the 3 you offered, but if you are only utilizing TM to get extra attack steps for another 3-6 damage, wouldn't Thunderous Wrath just be the better miracle card? Seems like it'd be more consistent in getting in for damage, but even here it seems weak.

I honestly doubt you did much serious testing. I am willing to suspend my disbelief, but the lists you put forth do not seem well-tuned or ready to take on the current Legacy tier 1. I think the current RUG decks would eat all of them alive since they simply have a higher density of removal and counterspells. Remember, TM can be Spell Pierce'd and the miracle trigger can be Stifled, and many RUG lists are already running some number of Thought Scour/Predict. Mulliganing with RUG is miserable enough as it is, do you really want to open yourself up to the possibility even more with 4 temporal masteries?

What decks did you test these lists against? Or did you just goldfish with them?

[Suneloon]

I don't like that people think that everything from the internet has to be free... Whining about 3 dollars...lol...i give that as a tip to the guy who brings me lunch....

Playa

[Smmenen]

I have some complaints about your decklists:

UGW:
-You're playing 3 Jace, TMS but only 19 lands and not even 1 Life from the Loam or any Noble Hierarchs. Jace is a fantastic late-game bomb, but I do not think this mana base can support 1-2 Jace, much less 3.


In testing, I rarely had trouble reaching the mana to play Jace, provided I survived that long, even against Wasteland decks. With 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder it was enough land.

As I said, I even had games where I could *hardcast* Temporal Mastery.




-You drop Wasteland in favor of Basics to help stabilize the mana-base. This would fine, except that you're still running tempo cards like Daze and Stifle. Without Wasteland to back up these cards, they become incredibly weak outside of the first few turns, whereas other well-tuned tempo decks can leverage them for longer into the game.
-You also aren't comitting to one angle of attack with your counterspells, opting to go with a 2/2/2 split of the situational ones. I think this is a weaker, less consistent approach than just going for a 4/2 or 3/3 split of the ones that are useful most often in this deck.



My UGW list doesn't have Stifle.




RUG:
-You drop Nimble Mongoose in favor of Vexing Devil. Do you even play this format?



Nimble Mongoose was not fast enough or large enough to take advantage of Temporal Mastery. That's why I included Vexing Devil. There were too many games where I played Temporal Mastery and swung for 1.




-You mention that Snapcaster Mage may provide more tempo than Tarmogoyf. Hell no.


I said "may," and I meant situationally, specifically in terms of abusing Temporal Mastery. Snapcaster helps clear blockers on your Temporal Mastery turn by Bolting or otherwise removing the blocker. Goyf is obviously amazing. One of my favorite creatures ever. Which is why I even tried a RUG list. Goyf is the reason to play green.




UR:
-This is probably the best decklist you offered,



That's why I said both of the previous lists were flawed, and this was the best.




but if you are only utilizing TM to get extra attack steps for another 3-6 damage, wouldn't Thunderous Wrath just be the better miracle card? Seems like it'd be more consistent in getting in for damage, but even here it seems weak.

No. As I said, when you combine Delver, Guide, and Devil, you are really maximizing the value of Temporal Mastery. The additional turn then allows you to Snapcast and Bolt to clear any blocker. It's not just 3-6 damage. It's 3-6 damage, an additional land drop, an additional draw, and an additional opportunity to play threats or Snapcast + Bolt. Thunderous Wrath doesn't do all those things.





I honestly doubt you did much serious testing. I am willing to suspend my disbelief, but the lists you put forth do not seem well-tuned or ready to take on the current Legacy tier 1. I think the current RUG decks would eat all of them alive since they simply have a higher density of removal and counterspells. Remember, TM can be Spell Pierce'd and the miracle trigger can be Stifled, and many RUG lists are already running some number of Thought Scour/Predict.

What decks did you test these lists against? Or did you just goldfish with them?

I tested against a range of matchups, largely focusing on decks that had won recent SCG Opens and Maverick. I won't claim that I ran a full gauntlet, nor will I claim that these decks beat everything or had favorable matchups against everything. But the point isn't that these decks will be dominant, but that Temporal Mastery is broken because it creates alot of unfair and unfun games.

With each successive decklist I was moving towards a better Temporal mastery list, meaning a list designed better to abuse it. I don't offer these decklists as the finished product, but as the foundation for further testing, based upon the testing I've already done.

I believe that the UR version has enough density of countermagic and removal to go more than toe to toe with RUG, especially with the right draw. Temporal Mastery is a very natural fit into these decks, and at least as good as a Chain Lightning (which they already all run), provided you have a creature on the board.


Mulliganing with RUG is miserable enough as it is, do you really want to open yourself up to the possibility even more with 4 temporal masteries?

After testing a bit with RUG, I quickly moved to UR for the reasons that are rightly obvious to you. And, I can report that Temporal Mastery did not negatively impact a single mulligan decision I had to confront in testing.

[joemauer]

A creature that typically only does four damage sounds horrible in a tempo deck. Most tempo decks ride one or two creatures to victory. Vexing Devil cannot do this. I am going to mirror Wcm8 here. Do you even play Legacy?

[Smmenen]

A creature that typically only does four damage sounds horrible in a tempo deck. Most tempo decks ride one or two creatures to victory. Vexing Devil cannot do this. I am going to mirror Wcm8 here. Do you even play Legacy?

Your confusion stems from the fact that you think Vexing Devil is replacing a creature here. It's not. If my opponent takes 4, then it's better than Chain Lightning at their head. If they let it resolve, then they will be punished with Temporal Mastery, since I will have an additional attack -- and more damage -- than they thought they would be taking at that time.

The question is: how do you maximize use of Temporal Mastery: Delver and Guide and Goyf are obvious ways to do this, but Vexing Devil is another. I wouldn't play it over one of those creatures, but in addition to it. I don't have a giant sample size, but so far it's been surprisingly good.

[keys]

Chain Lightning at your opponent's face on turn one is a horrible play. Devil does one additional point of damage. It's still horrible.

How do threads like these not fall into the Lack of Content category in the rules?

[JDK]

Your confusion stems from the fact that you think Vexing Devil is replacing a creature here. It's not. If my opponent takes 4, then it's better than Chain Lightning at their head. If they let it resolve, then they will be punished with Temporal Mastery, since I will have an additional attack -- and more damage -- than they thought they would be taking at that time.

The question is: how do you maximize use of Temporal Mastery: Delver and Guide and Goyf are obvious ways to do this, but Vexing Devil is another. I wouldn't play it over one of those creatures, but in addition to it. I don't have a giant sample size, but so far it's been surprisingly good.
You know most people will take 4 when they cannot handle the Devil, so you will definitely NOT attack with him. If they can handle him, go figure. I won't charge you for that knowledge.

Don't get me wrong, 4 for R is definitely fine, but it works against your claims to "abuse" Temporal Mastery and is nowhere near a Mongoose in RUG.

@Thunderous Wrath
It only costs R and gets in for 5 or rid off a blocker. In addition it's also good, if you don't have creatures on the board, where Mastery would be nothing more than an Explore.

[Smmenen]

Chain Lightning at your opponent's face on turn one is a horrible play. Devil does one additional point of damage. It's still horrible.


That's why I use Goblin Guide and Delver for one drops. I explained that.

[Smmenen]

You know most people will take 4 when they cannot handle the Devil, so you will definitely NOT attack with him.

Don't get me wrong, 4 for R is definitely fine, but it works against your claims to "abuse" Temporal Mastery and is nowhere near a Mongoose.

@Thunderous Wrath
It only costs R and gets in for 5 or rid off a blocker. In addition it's also good, if you don't have creatures on the board, where Mastery would be nothing more than an Explore.

People are getting fixated on Devil. I'm not even saying he's that great or even optimal. Again, I never claimed that my decks were optimal, but that they are offered for the reader to have something to work with based upon the testing I've done so far.

Feel free to play Thunderous Wrath, but there is no way it's better than Temporal Mastery.

[KevinTrudeau]

Weren't you the guy criticizing Doomsday players' 'trash' lists because they weren't playing Laboratory Maniac like in Vintage?

[luckme10]

Read the excerpt. It was fine. Then I saw a 2.99 add cart. So, since the cost of the article seems to warrant much complaining in the magic community, I want to talk about the opportunity cost of purchasing a 1000 word article vs what you can do with $2.99:

-Goodwill, 99 cents store, lotto tickets.
- 10 packs of ramen noodles
-Make a collect call to a long lost relative. Who probably won't accept anymore of your phone calls.
-Purchase brine shrimp eggs. Put in cup. Have mini-aquarium.
-Purchase Ice block on rainy day. Go sliding down the fairway at your local golf course. Damages may cost a little more...

-What do they say on those pro bono infomercials? Vitamins are about 10 cents a day for developing nations?
-3 dollars is the daily living costs of least developed nations for two days. Based on the value of 1 1989 dollar, adjusted for inflation.
-It is also the daily living costs of a lesser developing nation for a day. Based on the value of 2 1989 dollars, adjusted for inflation.

For those of you that don't find the need to life cheaply, or donate time/money. Fear not! Now there are ways to let you contribute to the environment and public good! Please support your Benefit Corporations:
-Purchase 2 arrowhead spring waters. Now their bottles use 20% less plastic! Help support our landfills by purchasing more product.
-Buy a gallon of gas? Maybe? In select areas? This helps support Chevron's increasing educational sponsorship of environmental classes.
-Support Wal-Mart. There's many things you can buy there for less than 3 dollars. By making purchases at Wal-Mart, you'll help fuel their venture capital in countries in dire need of financement. Like Mexico.

With all the other decisions to make with the 3 dollars cover charge... I'm just so overwhelmed by the opportunity costs. Stephen, I'm sure you make some fine points in your article, and if someone would be so kind as to outline those points, I'd love to see them.

[Smmenen]

As I update any of the lists in the article based upon any further testing, I will have the EC folks update those lists in the article, and I will post any updates here as well(indicating card changes to each list). FYI.

[wcm8]

I never claimed that my decks were optimal,

"My decks here, or variants of them, will be winning SCG Legacy Opens very soon." -page 6

edit: to be fair, you do say 'or variants of them'.

[Smmenen]

"My decks here, or variants of them, will be winning SCG Legacy Opens very soon." -page 6

Yes: "Variants of them" being key.

Let me be clear: I believe that Temporal Mastery Delver decks will be appearing in SCG Legacy Open Top 8s very soon.

[Koby]

This thread is worth the comedy IMO.

[JDK]

People are getting fixated on Devil. I'm not even saying he's that great or even optimal. Again, I never claimed that my decks were optimal, but that they are offered for the reader to have something to work with based upon the testing I've done so far.

Keep in mind what you said earlier:

If they let it resolve, then they will be punished with Temporal Mastery, since I will have an additional attack -- and more damage -- than they thought they would be taking at that time.

If your argument for Temporal Mastery's "another attack phase!" involves Vexing Devil, you should take a moment to think about it. Vexing Devil isn't abusing Temporal Mastery in any way. There was a reason why I posted my previous thoughts quoting this statement of yours.


Feel free to play Thunderous Wrath, but there is no way it's better than Temporal Mastery.
I never said it is better in general. The point is, that it only costs one R and is much much much much much much much less situational.

[DragoFireheart]

What exactly does your UR decklist look like?

[Koby]

What exactly does your UR decklist look like?

Extrapolating from the discussion:

Goblin Guide
Vexing Devil
Delver of Secrets

Brainstorm
Ponder
Daze
Stifle
Force of Will
Spell Pierce

Chain Lightning
Lightning Bolt

Temporal Mastery
~18-19 lands

[Rekk]

seems about right....
so really his breakthrough legacy deck was shoving tm into already established decks..

oh and of course one list with both dazes, jace, and a low land count

[KobeBryan]

Extrapolating from the discussion:

Goblin Guide
Vexing Devil
Delver of Secrets

Brainstorm
Ponder
Daze
Stifle
Force of Will
Spell Pierce

Chain Lightning
Lightning Bolt

Temporal Mastery
~18-19 lands

I could have sworn that Reforge is THE card for UR delver...not temporal mastery.

[JDK]

Extrapolating from the discussion:

Goblin Guide
Vexing Devil
Delver of Secrets

Brainstorm
Ponder
Daze
Stifle
Force of Will
Spell Pierce

Chain Lightning
Lightning Bolt

Temporal Mastery
~18-19 lands

I guess he includes Snapcaster too.

[xeraseth]

seems about right....
so really his breakthrough legacy deck was shoving tm into already established decks..

oh and of course one list with both dazes, jace, and a low land count
He also replaced Chain Lightning with Vexing Devil

[birds of paradise2]

i haven't read the article, but i'd love to see your old play-by-play reporting style being implemented on the new decklist. Those are the articles i've enjoyed the most in the past.

I can't belive the people complaining that it's premium content. No one is forcing you to buy it, and neither do we care about the endless possibilites about how you can spend $3.

[xfxf]

I'm not complaining it's premium content. I'm complaining he is trying to market his $3 Legacy breaking breakthrough here. TM subject was already heated enough on the boards I don't think we need additional hype-up just to sell premium content.

[JDK]

Still waiting for DragoFireheart to pay the $3 and post the list in the Avacyn Restored thread. :laugh:

[jrw1985]

It's been a long while since I wrote a set review with Legacy in mind. This article is a joint Legacy and Vintage set review, although most of the cards reviewed are for Vintage, the vast majority of the key discussion is Legacy, largely, although not exclusively, on account of Temporal Mastery.


I'm not a SCG member, so I can't speak directly to your list, but this is what I've gleamed thus far from reading this thread...

You think Temporal Mastery is superior to Thunderous Wrath in a UR build. I was thinking the same thing. They take the same setup (BS or Ponder topdeck manipulation), but one allows you to get an extra attack outta 2 creatures. Now my understanding of math is pretty limited, but it seems the average damage dealt by 2 attacking creatures in this deck will be higher than the 5 from Thunderous Wrath. When you also account for the extra card drawn it clearly gets pretty backbreaking pretty quickly. You used to have to keep your life total above 6 versus UR to avoid the Bolt>Bolt or Bolt>Snap>Bolt kill. With Temporal Mastery the limit is basically 8-10, since extra attacks = free damage.

TM also allows you to trump Mom, which has to be fun. And since you're winning in the red zone already you can basically clear out blockers with Devil and swing through an open board after the TM. That's what a lot of people haven't yet realized, I think. Activated abilities just got worse, blockers just got worse, and fast, dumb beaters just got better.

Man, I can't believe Wild Nacatl is already outdated...

Back on topic, TM is going to mess up understood and accepted math in a big way. How does SFM know what to fetch now? Or, more succinctly, how does a creature with a 1 turn lag compete with a card that turns that into a two turn lag?

I hope to see the full decklist you proposed soon (hint, hint, *cough* it's a free forum *cough*) because it seems like turning guys sideways is what TM really wants to enable.

And please, forgive the haters. They are, after all, gonna hate.

[xfxf]

And please, forgive the haters. They are, after all, gonna hate.

Why would we be haters? I read a lot of his articles previously, especially on Vintage and learned a lot. But since I became a member of this forum I don't agree with the intent of this thread and I'm voicing a perfectly legitimate objection, if you have a problem with that go check forum rules. I guess suck ups will be suck ups.

[DragoFireheart]

Still waiting for DragoFireheart to pay the $3 and post the list in the Avacyn Restored thread. :laugh:

Hmmm...

[JDK]

The only combination of creatures with a power greater than 5 consists of 2 flipped Delvers (Vexing Devil won't be attacking, as I explained in a previous post).

So how often do you get two flipped Delvers on the board? In most cases you will do less than five damage in your attack phase, which renders Wrath superior in the average case, unless you absolutely need the draw and land drop.

Of course, we can theory craft and jizz about perfect board-states, where Temporal Mastery would be so broken, but then again...let's keep it real.

@Drago
Weren't you the one praising Mastery's imbalance and talking about how easy it is to come up with a broken list?

[GGoober]

I was on the "Vexing Devil is ZOMG OP" train until I did some testing and having some good advice from a friend explaining why aside from hyper aggressive decks like burn, the Devil is a shitty card.

If you can open Devil turn 1 and he sticks as a creature, your opponent can deal with it or has a peabrain. If you open Devil turn 1 and your opponent takes 4 in the face, it's a strong bolt to the face BUT in this very situation where you're playing a deck that relies on creatures to win the game aka the combat phase, you have just lost 2 turns (losing your creature drop on turn 1 due to devil getting 'burned', and 2nd turn you are casting a creature without haste unless you're playing Guide turn 2, which now doesn't look as threatening, and lastly by turn 3, your opponents would have dug 2 more cards for a removal to deal with the Devil).

These are scenarios, but the most common scenario would be: If I don't have an answer for Devil, I'll take 4 to the face and you lose 2 turns of tempo. If I do have an answer for Devil, I can CHOOSE to cost you tempo or to deal with the Devil anyway depending on my gameplan.

I think Smmenen is a little caught up with the testing that he can easily stick a Devil/Delver in play into a Temporal Mastery and swinging for two times. It is true that if such a situation arises, it is ideal and amazing. However, I do agree that TM is only good in an aggro-control deck that plans on winning with creatures. TM/TW is all about maximizing what you can do with the extra turn. E.g. playing TM/TW just to draw a card and untap your lands and play a land drop is the worst thing you can do. If you have a few creatures in play with TM/TW, it is very certain a powerful play, but that is assuming that the format is incapable of adapting or dealing with creatures.

[Lord Seth]

At this point I've lost interest in all of the testing and arguments both ways. If it's broken, it'll be dominating top 8's before long in some form at SCG Opens. If it isn't, it'll just fall off and next time a card gets this much hype people will be pointing to this as an example of a card people thought was broken but wasn't. Only thing to really do is wait and see.

Annoying thing is that it's the SCG closest to me that'll probably be one of the prime candidates for testing out these decks, so if it is broken I'll be a victim.

[Smmenen]

I've asked the editors to update my article and cut Vexing Devil. I played four more hours of testing tonight and was consistently impressed with Lavamancer. Turn three Temporal Mastery + Lavamancer is a great play despite the fact that Mastery removes itself. Chain Lightning is obviously great. These decks are sick. My teammate Demars thinks that Stoneforge might be nuts with Mastery. UR Delver is Strongest I've tested. It's very strong and very annoying to play against.

[jrw1985]

I've asked the editors to update my article and cut Vexing Devil. I played four more hours of testing tonight and was consistently impressed with Lavamancer. Turn three Temporal Mastery + Lavamancer is a great play despite the fact that Mastery removes itself. Chain Lightning is obviously great. These decks are sick. My teammate Demars thinks that Stoneforge might be nuts with Mastery. UR Delver is Strongest I've tested. It's very strong and very annoying to play against.

So what made Lavamancer that much better?

[Zilla]

Why would we be haters? I read a lot of his articles previously, especially on Vintage and learned a lot. But since I became a member of this forum I don't agree with the intent of this thread and I'm voicing a perfectly legitimate objection, if you have a problem with that go check forum rules. I guess suck ups will be suck ups.
I want to comment on this. Stephen wrote a Legacy related article that he (rightly) thought would be of interest to members of this community. The fact that it happens to cost a couple bucks to read doesn't affect its relevance to the format or this site's interests in the slightest.

If Stephen's sole goal were advertisement, I suspect he'd have just left a link here and forgotten about it. Instead he's taken the time to have thoughtful, lengthy discussion with people here about the subject matter, despite the fact that most of them haven't even read the source material.

There's never been a rule against posting links to premium content here. Premium SCG articles have been linked on this site for years. So long as the articles are relevant to the format, and the author's goal is the furtherance of the format and its community, there's no reason whatsoever that they shouldn't be allowed them here.

If you choose not to pay for them, that's all well and good, but I don't think it hurts you in any way to know they exist.

[JDK]

If Stephen's sole goal were advertisement, I suspect he'd have just left a link here and forgotten about it. Instead he's taken the time to have thoughtful, lengthy discussion with people here about the subject matter, despite the fact that most of them haven't even read the source material.

Advertisement can be done the wrong way (just post a link) and the right way (make people believe it could be ground-breaking). I guess we don't need to discuss which way you'd choose, if you want to sell views.

I am not implying anything, but just pointing out the flaws behind this thought process.

[wcm8]

Steve, I *do* respect your opinions in regards to Vintage, and I do greatly enjoy your podcast. I really liked some of the premium content you've released in the past, such as the exhaustive coverage of Gush.

However, the decks you put forth as 'breaking Legacy' are really sub-par. I think the games that they are winning in testing are in spite of Temporal Mastery's inclusion, not because of it.

I have been dabbling with the card since it got spoiled, and while I haven't done hundreds of test runs, I think I've at least come to the solid conclusion that the card is not that great in RUG, especially as a 4-of. I could potentially see it being run in some number (perhaps 1 or 2 as a nice mid/late-game top deck), but not as a marquee card that is run in the full 4 copies.

I think the card does have some potential, but more likely as 2-3 copies in some sort of deck running Planeswalkers and/or pro-active disruption (such as Hymn to Tourach and other discard spells). I'm actually surprised that you didn't give a BUG build a chance, since the card could slot into a tempo Team America list somewhat easily. Swinging with Tombstalkers, Tarmogoyfs and Delvers multiple times is definitely something worth considering, even if it's not ultimately that good. Or perhaps just try developing a solid Bant list that runs Hierarchs, KotRs, and some number of Jace, possibly Elspeth, etc. Another potential direction would be to try running it in a mono-blue build that runs other stuff to hate on the format like maindeck Back to Basics.

The UGW list is just poorly constructed in general, regardless of whether or not TM is in the deck. Swords to Plowshares is one of the worst removal cards for an aggressive deck that is trying to win via combat damage -- why not take the Zoo approach and run Path to Exile instead? Or hell, even try running Vapor Snag and drop white entirely, since you're not utilizing the color otherwise (I don't think white opens up great SB options for tempo either). In that case, a straight UG build with a more stable manabase might be more capable of casting Jace on time, but I HIGHLY doubt that you had 'no trouble' resolving Jace against RUG.

Also, I don't think it would have required THAT much testing to figure out that Devil is not that great in RUG, and that Nimble Mongoose is an essential card for the archetype. The card is integral towards winning against opposing control decks, and cutting this slot for Vexing Devil (a card that's just.. bad in general, but especially against control) says to me that you haven't done serious testing.

UR is definitely a strong deck, but I don't think TM is the card that you're looking for to push the deck over the top. If you are looking to maximize damage output against the tier 1 of Legacy, I would consider just running Price of Progress or more burn here.

What matchups are getting so much significantly better with TM in the deck? RUG will disrupt your lines of resolving it, Maverick will mostly not care, and UWx isn't particularly hard for UR or RUG decks to beat even without additional attack phases. If it's not improving the matchup against the current tier 1, I really don't see why the card is worth running other than for the novelty factor. It seems to me like you assembled these decklists devoid of consideration for what's going on in the format right now.

Yes, there will be games where you just so happen to get a nut draw and can chain several TM's over the course of a few turns, but I've personally play-tested far more games where the card either did very little or was left stranded in hand. You aren't *really* drawing an 'extra card', since setting up TM for the Miracle cost is going to be your draw for that turn.

The reason you are getting flak for this article from people is because you posited the argument in such a hyperbolic, exaggerated way. You make claims like 'these decks will dominate SCG Open Top 8s', 'brainstorm might need to banned', etc and don't actually deliver any decklists that can come close to rivaling Flash's absurd power level (your comparison, not mine). You frame the article as containing 3 legacy decks that are broken/on their way to being broken, yet you even come to the conclusion within the article that the UGW and RUG builds are mediocre/bad and really only seem to be confident in the UR list. You say that TM is 'broken', but then admit that the decks don't have really favorable matchups across the board. I think that if TM *is broken* (something that seems very unlikely to me now), it will be in a deck that is very different from the lists you provided.

I think the article is still worthwhile for the REST of the content, which covers the new set and contains an updated Vintage checklist. The Griselbrand Oath deck looks sick! But as for the article's Legacy content, I think it's lacking in a huge way. Regardless, I still enjoyed it overall because you are an entertaining writer -- so please see these criticisms for what they are: attacks on your stance on TM, not personal attacks on you.

[Smmenen]

While I may not have framed this article as a set review for this forum, that is actually it's content and purpose. Yet, I did undertake testing for a number of cards in this review, not only in order to get a better sense of how they might be best abused, but also to have a more firm and confident impression of their utility and overall value.

Temporal Mastery was such a card. Initially, I undertook my testing with Temporal Mastery in a far more limited fashion: I simply wanted to scrutinize the criticisms that this card has received, especially on these boards. I wanted to measure the critiques of this card against actual experience: to see if this card would increase the difficulty or frequency of mulligan decision. I wanted to see if it would cause me to "waste" or underutilize Brainstorms. I wanted to see if Temporal Mastery would be a highly conditional or relatively easily executed play.

Having satisfied my initial curiosity, I decided to try to test a swath of possible homes. I began in several places, but dismissing other options, converged around Delver decks. I don't think my UGW Delver deck is as bad as you claim, since it's pretty much a Standard Goyf deck, and I"m being entirely sincere that I didn't have much trouble resolving Jace. The problem wasn't resolving Jace, it was often the relevance of Jace, or keeping it alive.

A good deal of testing with the UGW list quickly led to a RUG list, which only after a minimal amount of testing, gave way to UR Delver. The Vexing Devil change was made late in the testing, and did not get receive the full treatment, which I tested much more of today.

I appreciate the sincere, if not a bit strident, feedback. But I think that you will find that Temporal Mastery will indeed highlight the Legacy contributions not only from this set, but will be a star in the evolving metagame. I may have exaggerated in suggesting that there were "three decks" in this article, when actually those decks were merely an evolution of a testing regime in one direction or path -- but it is not an exaggeration when I say that I believe Temporal Mastery Delver decks will be lighting up SCG Open Top 8s.

Also, I should say that I have been running Price of Progress in my latest UR Delver list, on top of the four Temporal Mastery. It's not just that the UR Delver deck has performed very well, but that Temporal Mastery has contributed to broken game situations. As Temporal Mastery slowly takes hold in the format, I am confident that others will see what I've seen. In short, it's my view that Temporal Mastery basically makes extant decks less interactive, more abusive, and less fun. I've improved my UR Delver deck since I wrote this article (rest assured there is a lag between writing and publishing), and I made the mistake of makiing a late change by adding Devil -- but the core of my testing is -- I believe -- more than worth reading, if for no other reason than addressing the initial criticisms that were launched.

One need not agree with my ultimate conclusions that Temporal Mastery is broken to concur in my judgment that Temporal Mastery does not suffer from the limitations ascribed to it by its harsher critics. And, if I were to aspire more as a persuasive writer, I would just ask that the reader also agree that I've demonstrated that Temporal Mastery functions and synergizes well in these lists. I assure you Temporal Mastery is not a win more card. It's winning games.

[Smmenen]

Yes, there will be games where you just so happen to get a nut draw and can chain several TM's over the course of a few turns, but I've personally play-tested far more games where the card either did very little or was left stranded in hand. You aren't *really* drawing an 'extra card', since setting up TM for the Miracle cost is going to be your draw for that turn.


This paragraph embodies what I believe are a number of misconceptions, although mostly well-founded, understandable ones, regarding not just TM's brokenness, but potential.

First of all, the reason TM is broken isn't because you can chain 3-4 TM's together -- which, btw, you can do -- but because, you take, on average, 1-2 turns more per game than your opponent. This advantage is very difficult to overcome in general, and almost (although not entirely) impossible to overcome if you have a clearly superior board state.

Second, of course you don't draw another card in the draw step that turn, but you do draw a card on the Temporal Mastery (Time Walk) turn. That makes this a bona fide cantrip.

The brokenness of the card is a function of both the fact that it leads to uninteractive or blow out games, but also because it's so easy and simple to set up for such a huge advantage.

It's easy to blithely dismiss the card as "simply giving you another attack step," yet when such a card offers such tactical flexibility (i.e. late game advantages, setting up summoning sick activations, double Planeswalker activations, blow out spells like Hymn in succession, etc), on top of being a blue cantrip, that, on average, deals at least 3 damage (sometimes alot more, and sometimes 0 -- hence the 'average'), I think that safely qualifies as "broken."

Imagine Wizards printed a blue Lightning Bolt that cantripped -- such a card might seem innocuous, yet it would be obviously broken in tournament settings. Temporal Mastery does much more, and is far more flexibly abused. If it helps to view Temporal Mastery that way, please do so. The card is broken in any format where you can run 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder. But in a format like Legacy, where Delver decks are already dominant, this card is more than simply another useful tactic. It's abusive.

[ivanpei]

Ok, I won' t lie, I do speculate on cards. IE snapping up foil preorder Snapcasters because they were clearly good. In Temporal Mastery case, the card is clearly very good to bonkers. The card is clearly good in most blue control decks but inherently broken in delver. It is so good, I have put off buying them until the SCG results gets flooded with TM and the June banlist addresses it by either banning Brainstorm-esque cards or TM itself. I got burned on Mental Misstep (Jap foil Missteps :( Cry!) so I'm going to wait this time.

It will be in every interactive Blue decks ala Misstep and push non-blue decks out of the format. Sure Mav got the counterspell hosing land, but blue just got a tremendous boost as well. IMO the format will degenerate into a UW Control vs RUG again, this time Stoneblade vs Delver (rather than NO).

What makes the card so good in Delver is because the deck has plenty of early drops that can fully utilize the time walk. In slower blue decks like UW, it is the most an explore early and pretty bomby late with multiple Jace activations/Stoneforge + Batterskull. However, that assumes you get a SFM/Jace to stick, which makes it a parity breaker or win more card. It also dilutes threat density/answers in UW control so I'm not too sure how TM is good there.

In RUG, it is a 0 mana cantrip which gives you an extra attack phase and an explore. RUG abuses this the most because the deck has the best 1 mana bombs to take advantage of TM's walk. It has multiple ways of getting down a T1 delver/mongoose. Or if you are behind, you can drop a Creature + TM on the same turn to get a free hit in etc. Decks like UW want TM towards Turns 3++ especially after they stick a bomb, which is win more. RUG can stick an early creature easily and ride multiple TMs FTW. The chaining thing is what makes TM such a scary card and you can do it rather easily.

At worst, it cantrips, giving you more mana/ramp to fill up the yard for mongoose.

Even then, I still can't condone charging for an article and advertising it here.

[TkDodo]

In slower blue decks like UW, it is the most an explore early and pretty bomby late with multiple Jace activations/Stoneforge + Batterskull. However, that assumes you get a SFM/Jace to stick, which makes it a parity breaker or win more card. It also dilutes threat density/answers in UW control so I'm not too sure how TM is good there.


As a Stoneblade Player, I want to assure you that most of the time, at least against other blue decks, I would not be happy to see TM in the early to mid game. Everybody taking about it being a free explore in the early game misses the point that you actually have to pay 2 mana and resolve the spell to get that effect. As a control player, you would look pretty stupid to pay 2 mana in your draw step on turn 3 or 4, just to get it Spell Pierced or Counterspelled, now being (almost) tapped out passing the turn to your opponent. Especially in control mirrors, that would be a horrible play. Even more so if you "wasted" a Brainstorm EOT just to set up that brilliant move.
Things might start to get interesting once you put SD.Top in the mix. Being able to play it on your opponent's endstep is indefinitely better than during your own turn.

[DrJones]

Even then, I still can't condone charging for an article and advertising it here.The article becomes free after some time passes, and then Smmenem posts on the thread to make people aware of this fact so they can read it.

Second, let's address this issue

People will either be ok or people will bitch and moan about how some blue deck getting extra turns and winning the game and then our local Hydra will blame Force of Will for making Temporal Mastery too good.I've already stated that Temporal Mastery is ridiculous on this post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14662-All-B-R-update-speculation.&p=636311&viewfull=1#post636311) (note that I specifically mention blue TEMPO and U/R Delver), and also have stated that Temporal Mastery is going to be broken because it adds more gas to a problematic fire (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14662-All-B-R-update-speculation.&p=636319&viewfull=1#post636319).

Temporal Mastery is wrong because it's a "design landmine", it breaks one of the design restrictions that makes a strategy fair. Just by knowing that fact alone you can predict with almost perfect accuracy the card is going to cause problems to tournament play. That doesn't assure WotC is going to ban it, because they already believe Legacy is a format defined by mistakes and could perfectly let it ruin an already (on their eyes) broken format.

4 FoW (in a Tempo deck) + 4 Daze + 3 Temporal Mastery = 11 Time walks. In my experience 2 resolved Time Walks in a Tempo deck are enough to beat anybody on this format, which is why Mental Misstep broke blue in Legacy and Modern even though nonblue decks could also play it. The reason is redundancy. 11 Timewalks mean you'll almost surely get to see 2 in every game, moreso in a deck that also plays 4 brainstorms to find them sooner. Next time you play magic, count the number of times each player "timewalks" someone (counters their turn's play, casts Temporal Mastery, etc), and also note who wins that game. There should be a pretty strong correlation.

[Julian23]

....unless Maverick is involved.

[bruizar]

Temporal Mastery is wrong because it's a "design landmine", it breaks one of the design restrictions that makes a strategy fair.

Never enter a fair fight. Read more sun tzu

[DrJones]

Never enter a fair fight. Read more sun tzuNever enter a fight you can't win. Which I guess becomes reflected on the tournament attendance, just take a look at Standard during the Caw-Blade and Affinity eras, when stores stopped sending WotC FNM results because there were not enough people interested to play tournaments.

[DragoFireheart]

@Drago
Weren't you the one praising Mastery's imbalance and talking about how easy it is to come up with a broken list?

I was, but I conceded that I could be wrong and that I was expressing my opinion. If I knew as a matter of fact, I'd already post data showing so.

[ajfennewald]

You think Temporal Mastery is superior to Thunderous Wrath in a UR build. I was thinking the same thing. They take the same setup (BS or Ponder topdeck manipulation), but one allows you to get an extra attack outta 2 creatures. Now my understanding of math is pretty limited, but it seems the average damage dealt by 2 attacking creatures in this deck will be higher than the 5 from Thunderous Wrath. When you also account for the extra card drawn it clearly gets pretty backbreaking pretty quickly. You used to have to keep your life total above 6 versus UR to avoid the Bolt>Bolt or Bolt>Snap>Bolt kill. With Temporal Mastery the limit is basically 8-10, since extra attacks = free damage.


When you play burn based aggro with all small dudes there is often a point where your creatures have been neutralized and you are looking to burn them out. At that point thunderous wrath is better. Temporal mastery si better in the early game though.

[Ignithas_]

When you play burn based aggro with all small dudes there is often a point where your creatures have been neutralized and you are looking to burn them out. At that point thunderous wrath is better. Temporal mastery si better in the early game though.
That doesn't make any sense. In what early game should Temporal Mastery be better, when it can only be cast on T3 without accelleration. Burn based strategys win on T3-5. In the unlikely case, that you haven't any creature out (I remind you, that UR has countermagic) then Thunderous Wrath could be better. But the non-synergy with FoW and the fact, that it's only a bolt that needs setup, when you shoot a creature with 3 or less toughness are too much of a drawback.

[ajfennewald]

Burn based strategies goldfish on turn 3-5 not won on those turns. In my experience usually at some point your creatures have been taken care of in some way and your opponent is a 5-10 life and you are trying to burn them out. I this spot temporal mastery does not do a ton where as thunderous wrath buts you closer to wining the game. As far as the FOW issue I do not play that in the main deck of my U/R/x burn based decks.

[nedleeds]

4 FoW (in a Tempo deck) + 4 Daze + 3 Temporal Mastery = 11 Time walks.

... only somebody who has never actually played actual time walk would make absurd statements like this ....

[Ignithas_]

Burn based strategies goldfish on turn 3-5 not won on those turns. In my experience usually at some point your creatures have been taken care of in some way and your opponent is a 5-10 life and you are trying to burn them out. I this spot temporal mastery does not do a ton where as thunderous wrath buts you closer to wining the game. As far as the FOW issue I do not play that in the main deck of my U/R/x burn based decks.
Please link the list, otherwise it doesn't make much sense to argue with you. Generally the reasoning to splash U is the better MU against all variances of Combo decks. And the best combo hoser is FoW.


... only somebody who has never actually played actual time walk would make absurd statements like this ....
He refers to the tempo loss, that can occur when all your early playd cards get countered with the so called free counters and then they can get an actual time walk while a delver is beating you from the first turn. When UR or RUG Delver has a very strong hand it's possible, that you can't utilize any card till T4 while your oponent just plays a thread after another. This feels just you got time warped.

[JDK]

I was, but I conceded that I could be wrong and that I was expressing my opinion. If I knew as a matter of fact, I'd already post data showing so.

Okay, but expressing your opinion doesn't mean making false claims without backup or arguments. You can express your opinion and still come up with a broken list, if it would be that easy. Never mind though. :tongue:

[allek]

After reading this stupid thread I bought the article and just by glancing at it I can tell it's 3 bucks well spent. I'm looking forward to reading through it, muse over the contents and throw together some decklists. This article may or may not contain anything fantastic, groundbreaking och worldchanging but hey, it's only $3 and the guy is an eternal-legend.

Buying him a coffee (~$3) seems like a fair price to hear his thoughts on the new cards. Thanks Stephen!

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Next time you play magic, count the number of times each player "timewalks" someone (counters their turn's play, casts Temporal Mastery, etc), and also note who wins that game. There should be a pretty strong correlation.

I'm only going to answer to this part as I've tested with Temporal Manipulation and don't feel like we should worry too much about it. Here, though, you misapply Magic theory to further your argument.
If you look at the counters as Time Walks, you should also count anything that neutralizes their play for a similar cost to those counters (especially mana that would otherwise have went unspent) as you're applying here: basically up to 1C (a colorless and one colored - TM's cost). That includes Bolt, StPs, any blockers that are bigger than what the opponent has as well as just about any interactive card that sees play in this format. Heck, by your definition Wall of Omens and Wall of Blossoms are Time Walks because they blank a guy while drawing a card. Essentially what you described is advantageous interaction taking place.
Just because you can describe how a card plays out as a Time Walk doesn't mean every single card you could describe that way is broken. Actually, you can describe most cards as Time Walks if you put your mind to it (http://members.fortunecity.com/dlanod/magic/theories/timewalk.html).

[Vacrix]

I've been playing against various Temporal Mastery builds on Cockatrice. I haven't lost to one yet. The best thing my opponent ever did with TM was play it turn 3 with a flipped Delver into an extra land drop and dropped Moat when I had made like 10 goblins with EtW in PSI (postboard). He still lost. In almost every case that UW control has resolved TM against me, Terminus would have been better. Against UR Delver, the extra attack phase was pretty cool but it dealt no more than 3 damage with a flipped Delver. So far... TM is underwhelming, as expected.

[Ignithas_]

I'm only going to answer to this part as I've tested with Temporal Manipulation and don't feel like we should worry too much about it. Here, though, you misapply Magic theory to further your argument.
If you look at the counters as Time Walks, you should also count anything that neutralizes their play for a similar cost to those counters (especially mana that would otherwise have went unspent) as you're applying here: basically up to 1C (a colorless and one colored - TM's cost). That includes Bolt, StPs, any blockers that are bigger than what the opponent has as well as just about any interactive card that sees play in this format. Heck, by your definition Wall of Omens and Wall of Blossoms are Time Walks because they blank a guy while drawing a card. Essentially what you described is advantageous interaction taking place.
Just because you can describe how a card plays out as a Time Walk doesn't mean every single card you could describe that way is broken. Actually, you can describe most cards as Time Walks if you put your mind to it (http://members.fortunecity.com/dlanod/magic/theories/timewalk.html).
But the problem is, that with all this advantageous interactions, that U can easily offer to a tempo deck (especially with cantrips) and now TM, this tempo shell has so many ways to get an advantage out of their cards. And I see another problem. It's very hard to interact with Instant cards, especially when you don't play U. And this leads to my last complain. I don't like the way the Legacy metagame is heading right now:
Do you have a problem with Combo? Try the U counter suite.
Do you have a problem with Control? Well... try the U counter suite.
Do you have a problem with Aggro? Try a U counter suite, that includes Terminus.
Do you have a problem with fighting Miracles? ... I heard a U conter suite could help.

[DrJones]

I'm only going to answer to this part as I've tested with Temporal Manipulation and don't feel like we should worry too much about it. Here, though, you misapply Magic theory to further your argument.
If you look at the counters as Time Walks, you should also count anything that neutralizes their play for a similar cost to those counters (especially mana that would otherwise have went unspent) as you're applying here: basically up to 1C (a colorless and one colored - TM's cost). That includes Bolt, StPs, any blockers that are bigger than what the opponent has as well as just about any interactive card that sees play in this format. Heck, by your definition Wall of Omens and Wall of Blossoms are Time Walks because they blank a guy while drawing a card. Essentially what you described is advantageous interaction taking place.
Just because you can describe how a card plays out as a Time Walk doesn't mean every single card you could describe that way is broken. Actually, you can describe most cards as Time Walks if you put your mind to it (http://members.fortunecity.com/dlanod/magic/theories/timewalk.html).My criteria has a few more restrictions: it doesn't have a mana commitment, so you have ALL your resources available to develop your strategy during your turn, and it has to negate an opponent's entire play for their turn.
For example, Karakas counts as a time walk if it returns a legend to the opponent's hand because it's free and it effectively undoes an opponent's development for their turn, and Snuff Out also qualifies, though these cards are restricted in the scenarios they act as 'free timewalks' compared with aberrations as Force of Will and Daze that are so universal I consider them "straight time walks" for deckbuilding purposes. Simmilarly, Wasteland and Strip Mine acts as 'free timewalks' if the opponent is unable to cast any spell in the time frame between playing the land and getting it destroyed. Submerge requires the opponent to have a forest and follow a creature strategy in order to act as a "free timewalk". Counterspell, however, isn't a "time walk" because it requires you to avoid committing resources on your turn (-1 turn) in order to recover it on your opponent's turn (+1 turn). The only wall that can "time walk" an opponent is Shield Sphere because it's free. Notice that Shield Sphere indeed saw play in a few competitive combo decks for this sole reason.

[Julian23]

The more I realize what DrJones really dislikes about Legacy, the more I'm fine with it. Not everyone likes playing against Tempo.

However, once you start arguing that tempo (as a strategy) is imbalanced, I disagree. What you describe as "free time walks" I consider fine in the grand scheme of the metagame. Playing Tempo is making a bet: you try to win with "free time walks" before you run out of cards.

[jam3sbob]

The article becomes free after some time passes, and then Smmenem posts on the thread to make people aware of this fact so they can read it.


The articles Smmenen used to write for SCG became free after 2-3 months, I don't think the ones on eternal central ever become free. I think they cost less after some time though.

[DragoFireheart]

Okay, but expressing your opinion doesn't mean making false claims without backup or arguments. You can express your opinion and still come up with a broken list, if it would be that easy. Never mind though. :tongue:

I actually did come up with a broken list in the B/R topic. I don't remember making "false" claims. Highly opinionated ideas? Yes.

Ah well, it's all good. :cool:

[DragoFireheart]

After reading this stupid thread I bought the article and just by glancing at it I can tell it's 3 bucks well spent. I'm looking forward to reading through it, muse over the contents and throw together some decklists. This article may or may not contain anything fantastic, groundbreaking och worldchanging but hey, it's only $3 and the guy is an eternal-legend.

Buying him a coffee (~$3) seems like a fair price to hear his thoughts on the new cards. Thanks Stephen!

I'd rather talk to him in person and give him $3.



I've been playing against various Temporal Mastery builds on Cockatrice. I haven't lost to one yet. The best thing my opponent ever did with TM was play it turn 3 with a flipped Delver into an extra land drop and dropped Moat when I had made like 10 goblins with EtW in PSI (postboard). He still lost. In almost every case that UW control has resolved TM against me, Terminus would have been better. Against UR Delver, the extra attack phase was pretty cool but it dealt no more than 3 damage with a flipped Delver. So far... TM is underwhelming, as expected.

I honestly believe we haven't found the correct deck for TM yet. Just because X card is bad in current Tier 1 decks doesn't mean it's a bad card.

[alderon666]

My opinion is that everybody keeps discussing the best scenarios (cast TM at EOT with Jace, Delver and Geist in play) and the worst case scenarios (just and Explore) and forget about the horrible scenarios. That's when you draw your 7 and there's 2 TM there, or when you draw it but actually don't wanna cast it, because it is just gonna get Dazed or Spell Pierced and you need to deal with a Delver or leave mana up for Counterspell.

I just keep imagining blowouts like someone keeping a hand with 2x TM and Brainstorm, going for the double timewalk turn 3 or 4. Then getting Gitaxian Probed and his Brainstorm Forced or Red Blasted...

[JACO]

I thought I would jump in a mention a couple of things related to this thread.

1) Downloadable Content on Eternal Central is always deemed Premium, and just like SCG, you generally get what you pay for. If you want to read good content, often times there is a cost associated with it. Sometimes you can pay a monthly fee, sometimes you can buy a single article. I've been a paying member of SCG for quite a while and have rarely read any Eternal articles that are close to the caliber of an average article by Menendian. When he left SCG I was pushing hard to land him on Eternal Central, because I think he simply writes the best and most consistently thorough content. Like any other service or good, you're free to purchase it or not, but it's honestly just a waste of everybody's time to make every 'Premium' content thread turn into a bitchfest about the fact that sometimes products cost money.

2) The main thing I took from the Legacy portion of this article was not the exact decklists for the Temporal Mastery shells, but the illustrative examples of why Temporal Mastery is actually ridiculous in Legacy. I'm not as sold on the applications as much in Vintage, but like Stephen, I also think it will be broken in Legacy. These lists and discussion are just a starting point. If people are doing their due dilligence Temporal Mastery will be in multiple decks in the next Legacy GP Top 8.

[dragonwisdom]

This is the most broken set, since Urza's Saga.

The miracle mechanic is just bonkers. I mean it might be just behind the storm mechanic. It's not hype. It's common sense. I remember when delver was just spoiled. All the legacy players in my play group could not believe a how a flying blue wild nacatyl got printed. They thought it was very strong. half a year later and Delver is now dominating. ditto with Snappy. Many of the people on this site could not see delver, Sappy coming. Arguing "lets just see how this plays out, it's just hype" Your really not sure?????????? Are you that unsure of yourselves and your abilities that you can't see this coming. At least Wizards finally printed some powerful red cards. Bravo for that. Vexing devil and thunderous wrath. Do you need to play test this to see how powerful they are????????

I love this set compared to the Dark ascension which only really added a few eh cards. This set will change legacy as we know it, much like delver, snappy and well misstep, which is now banned.

[CorpT]

This was a better article than I expected. I paid the $3 and felt that it was well spent.

[thefringthing]

Your really not sure??????????I was on the fence, but your dozens of question marks and misspelling of "you're" convinced me. Miracle is broken.

[matunos]

I've been playing against various Temporal Mastery builds on Cockatrice. I haven't lost to one yet. The best thing my opponent ever did with TM was play it turn 3 with a flipped Delver into an extra land drop and dropped Moat when I had made like 10 goblins with EtW in PSI (postboard). He still lost. In almost every case that UW control has resolved TM against me, Terminus would have been better. Against UR Delver, the extra attack phase was pretty cool but it dealt no more than 3 damage with a flipped Delver. So far... TM is underwhelming, as expected.

What deck plays both Delver and Moat?

[Einherjer]

What deck plays both Delver and Moat?

Maybe some new UW TemporalControl-Deck?

[Vacrix]

What deck plays both Delver and Moat?
It was certainly an odd build. Some kind of UW variant trying to take advantage of Delvers for an attack phase and a few other things like Jace, Squadron Hawk, Terminus, SDT, Brainstorm.. can't remember the rest. I wouldn't call it tier but that was the best play anyone made with the card. Otherwise it was quite literally an explore, perhaps with a cantrip tacked on to that.

[bruizar]

I'm much more interested in Cavern of Souls. Temporal Mastery and Terminus both seem like solid cards, but Cavern of Souls is the real evergreen card of the set imo. What I'm mostly interested in is how the price of the card will develop (foil version). That, and the price of foil Temporal Mastery and foil Terminus.

[birds of paradise2]

JACO, would you consider to make premium-content free after like a 3 month period like the SCG used to (now its down to 1 month)?

[Suneloon]

I was on the fence, but your dozens of question marks and misspelling of "you're" convinced me. Miracle is broken.

I lol'ed :tongue:

[ivanpei]

On second thought, Miracle cards are in fact pretty easy to deal with. For example, Spell Pierce, Clique are very commonly played cards. Also, cards such as Flusterstorm and Predict may pick up in popularity due to TM as well.

I have adjusted by playing more MD Spell Pierces and Cliques. These 2 cards really give the TM player fits. COUNTER the Brainstorm. If you successfully do so, not only do you screw his ability to fix his hand, you also strand the useless TM's in the opponents hand. Also, save your Cliques when he EOT Brainstorms to set up the TM. Clique after Brainstorm to strip a key card and force a blank TM into your opponent's hand.

If you can't counter the Brainstorm, counter the TM. Say he Brainstorms with 2 mana up on T3, during his next upkeep, he has to pay 2, leaving only 1 open, counter it then. You out-tempo him greatly by paying 1 mana to screw up a 3 mana play. Also, since he goes to so much effort to set it up, he also screwed up his own potential hand fixing Brainstorm.

If you are playing a heavy manipulation deck ALA counter-top etc, Predict is also a great card at screwing with TM. Flusterstorm is a very good all-rounder uncounterable screw piece. They can't counter all copies of Flusterstorm to force through the Brainstorm, it's pretty awesome.

Come to think of it, if you are goldfishing with TM, the card seems pretty busted. Also against the current field, the card is extremely good. But once decks start adapting, you'll meet problems. Expect to see more Cliques an Pierces, then we'll see how robust TM decks really are. Is it really worth the risk of having your brainstorms countered/inefficient brainstorms and having bricks (TM) in hand? Getting TM countered by a 1cc spell is also very painful especially since you wasted one of the best cards in your deck (brainstorm) to set it up instead of fixing your hand.

I'm not too sure how great TM is now that I've playtested it more. Time will tell.

[DrJones]

I feel like I fell onto an alternate world were complaining that a magic card isn't good because it can be countered is a valid and accepted argument.

[DragoFireheart]

On second thought, Miracle cards are in fact pretty easy to deal with. For example, Spell Pierce, Clique are very commonly played cards. Also, cards such as Flusterstorm and Predict may pick up in popularity due to TM as well.

I have adjusted by playing more MD Spell Pierces and Cliques. These 2 cards really give the TM player fits. COUNTER the Brainstorm. If you successfully do so, not only do you screw his ability to fix his hand, you also strand the useless TM's in the opponents hand. Also, save your Cliques when he EOT Brainstorms to set up the TM. Clique after Brainstorm to strip a key card and force a blank TM into your opponent's hand.

If you can't counter the Brainstorm, counter the TM. Say he Brainstorms with 2 mana up on T3, during his next upkeep, he has to pay 2, leaving only 1 open, counter it then. You out-tempo him greatly by paying 1 mana to screw up a 3 mana play. Also, since he goes to so much effort to set it up, he also screwed up his own potential hand fixing Brainstorm.

If you are playing a heavy manipulation deck ALA counter-top etc, Predict is also a great card at screwing with TM. Flusterstorm is a very good all-rounder uncounterable screw piece. They can't counter all copies of Flusterstorm to force through the Brainstorm, it's pretty awesome.

Come to think of it, if you are goldfishing with TM, the card seems pretty busted. Also against the current field, the card is extremely good. But once decks start adapting, you'll meet problems. Expect to see more Cliques an Pierces, then we'll see how robust TM decks really are. Is it really worth the risk of having your brainstorms countered/inefficient brainstorms and having bricks (TM) in hand? Getting TM countered by a 1cc spell is also very painful especially since you wasted one of the best cards in your deck (brainstorm) to set it up instead of fixing your hand.

I'm not too sure how great TM is now that I've playtested it more. Time will tell.

So basically to fight miracle cards, play blue.

Does anyone see a problem with this post?



I feel like I fell onto an alternate world were complaining that a magic card isn't good because it can be countered is a valid and accepted argument.

For once I agree with DrJones.

[NukeMoose]

I feel like I fell onto an alternate world were complaining that a magic card isn't good because it can be countered is a valid and accepted argument.

The miracle mechanic makes this fundamentally different than discussing how other spells are bad because they can get countered/removed.

Unless you plan on lucksacking your miracles or hardcasting TM, you are spending resources setting miracle up. If BS gets countered/discarded in today's game it's a 1 for 1. If it gets revmoed while you have a TM in hand, it's very close to a 2 for 1. This is why people are skeptical of the power this card will have, because the stakes are higher than just casting Delvers, Goblins or Goyfs.

[Vacrix]

This is the most broken set, since Urza's Saga.

The miracle mechanic is just bonkers. I mean it might be just behind the storm mechanic. It's not hype. It's common sense..... Arguing "lets just see how this plays out, it's just hype" Your really not sure?????????? Are you that unsure of yourselves and your abilities that you can't see this coming. Do you need to play test this to see how powerful they are????????
This set is nowhere near the power level of Urza's Saga.

You must always test to determine the power level of something. Otherwise you're just hypothesizing on paper. I think Terminus and Entreat the Angels will see play, likely in the same shell. Vanishment looks like it could be good. Making them waste a turn drawing what was already in play and then playing it again is often going to be just as a good as TM in terms of tempo, and it can actually get rid of a permanent thats giving you a headache. TM won't see much play at all. Reforge will be played in Belcher. Thunderous Wrath will probably get played in Burn but not as more than a 2 of' since having it in your hand really sucks in Burn. THAT is all speculation. It doesn't mean shit though. You have to play with the cards to know.

[dragonwisdom]

sorry for the grammer.


Did you need to play test delver, misstep or
snapcaster to see how great they were when they were spoiled? I just don't see how some of you don't see this right away without testing. Do you need see evidence for everything, before you call it good. I mean anyone can do that. Let's see apple is a good company. Maybe I will only buy the stock after it hits 600 dollars a share. Use your imagination/common sense.
You realize they just reprinted the most powerful cards/banned cards in Magic with a minimal drawback in Legacy. Both vexing devil and Thunderous wrath are awesome. Cavern of souls will be defining as well.


This set won't be as good as the Saga block in terms of standard. But it's impact in Legacy will be defining. It's ludicrous that you have to play test to see this.

[ivanpei]

The miracle mechanic makes this fundamentally different than discussing how other spells are bad because they can get countered/removed.

Unless you plan on lucksacking your miracles or hardcasting TM, you are spending resources setting miracle up. If BS gets countered/discarded in today's game it's a 1 for 1. If it gets revmoed while you have a TM in hand, it's very close to a 2 for 1. This is why people are skeptical of the power this card will have, because the stakes are higher than just casting Delvers, Goblins or Goyfs.

Exactly, getting 2 for 1ed by a 1 mana spell pierce seems pretty good. TM requires setting up, which is different from Delver, snapcaster etc which were obviously broken. TM on the other hand is terribad when stuck in hand.

I agree with drago that it's bad for the format that the best answer to miracles are also blue. I've been playing the standard uw miracleless Stoneblade with md pierces and cliques. I think a uw miracle control deck needs to built from the ground up.

[dontbiteitholmes]

JACO, would you consider to make premium-content free after like a 3 month period like the SCG used to (now its down to 1 month)?

Not that I particularly care about MTG articles free or premium, but I just want to clarify why this is a good idea.

1: Most articles are obsolete after 3 months. We have new sets in that time frame and all metagames are constantly shifting. Unless the article is about overall strategy it's pretty ancient after about the 30-60 day mark.

2: From point #1 it would suck for someone to pay for an article about a deck or strategy that is now obsolete.

3: It allows people to see what premium content looks like so they can decide if paying for newer articles is worth the investment.

[Vacrix]

sorry for the grammer.


Did you need to play test delver, misstep or
snapcaster to see how great they were when they were spoiled? I just don't see how some of you don't see this right away without testing. Do you need see evidence for everything, before you call it good. I mean anyone can do that. Let's see apple is a good company. Maybe I will only buy the stock after it hits 600 dollars a share. Use your imagination/common sense.
You realize they just reprinted the most powerful cards/banned cards in Magic with a minimal drawback in Legacy. Both vexing devil and Thunderous wrath are awesome. Cavern of souls will be defining as well.


This set won't be as good as the Saga block in terms of standard. But it's impact in Legacy will be defining. It's ludicrous that you have to play test to see this.
Again, nothing is 'broken' until it proves itself.

When the TM first hit the spoilers, everyone was raving about how retarded it was. AggroZombies brought up an excellent comparison to Lorescale Coatl, which everyone thought was going to be pretty OP in a format with Brainstorm. It sees no play at all.

Honestly, as good as Cavern of Souls is, Aether Vial has been great and dangerous for quite a long time. Its not introducing anything that the format didn't already have, rather another version of it. Also, Cavern is still being played in a format rampant with Wastelands. Vial is arguably harder to remove. I don't see Cavern being format defining.

I doubt that Thunderous Wrath will get played as more than a 2'of in Burn/Delver as you don't want to draw too many and get stuck with dead cards in hand, especially something like Wrath that you cannot pitch to FoW. Vexing Devil is certainly awesome but it has yet to prove its worth. Some people playing it in Sligh have said that they don't like it.

Also, can we all stop pretending that having the card as your topcard is a minimal drawback.. It requires setup. Miracles just make Brainstorm and SDT juicier targets for countermagic.


EDIT:
Also, I agree with don'tbiteitholmes about the 3 month rule on articles. His logic is solid.

[Elminister]

On second thought, Miracle cards are in fact pretty easy to deal with. For example, Spell Pierce, Clique are very commonly played cards. Also, cards such as Flusterstorm and Predict may pick up in popularity due to TM as well.

I have adjusted by playing more MD Spell Pierces and Cliques. These 2 cards really give the TM player fits. COUNTER the Brainstorm. If you successfully do so, not only do you screw his ability to fix his hand, you also strand the useless TM's in the opponents hand. Also, save your Cliques when he EOT Brainstorms to set up the TM. Clique after Brainstorm to strip a key card and force a blank TM into your opponent's hand.

If you can't counter the Brainstorm, counter the TM. Say he Brainstorms with 2 mana up on T3, during his next upkeep, he has to pay 2, leaving only 1 open, counter it then. You out-tempo him greatly by paying 1 mana to screw up a 3 mana play. Also, since he goes to so much effort to set it up, he also screwed up his own potential hand fixing Brainstorm.

If you are playing a heavy manipulation deck ALA counter-top etc, Predict is also a great card at screwing with TM. Flusterstorm is a very good all-rounder uncounterable screw piece. They can't counter all copies of Flusterstorm to force through the Brainstorm, it's pretty awesome.

Come to think of it, if you are goldfishing with TM, the card seems pretty busted. Also against the current field, the card is extremely good. But once decks start adapting, you'll meet problems. Expect to see more Cliques an Pierces, then we'll see how robust TM decks really are. Is it really worth the risk of having your brainstorms countered/inefficient brainstorms and having bricks (TM) in hand? Getting TM countered by a 1cc spell is also very painful especially since you wasted one of the best cards in your deck (brainstorm) to set it up instead of fixing your hand.

I'm not too sure how great TM is now that I've playtested it more. Time will tell.

So, you need to play Blue to deal with Blue? Great solution. Meanwhile, mid range decks will get drowned in advantage that Temporal Mastery provides.

[SpikeyMikey]

Again, nothing is 'broken' until it proves itself.

When the TM first hit the spoilers, everyone was raving about how retarded it was. AggroZombies brought up an excellent comparison to Lorescale Coatl, which everyone thought was going to be pretty OP in a format with Brainstorm. It sees no play at all.


That's because most people don't understand metastrategy and are therefore terrible at evaluating cards. I've said it before, but TM isn't broken the way Flash is broken. It's not broken the way that Tinker is broken or Time Vault is broken. It's not the card that ruins your shit each and every time your opponent draws it. But it's significantly above the curve, enough that it will change the shape of the format. Yes it requires set up. It requires you to configure your deck with it in mind. You know what else requires special configuration and set up? Every other good card ever.

As for Thunderous Wrath, anyone running it in burn deserves to lose. It's the Powerball of AVR, the tax on people that are bad at math. Burn means to finish the game within the first 4 turns, preferablly in the first 3 turns. That means that you're talking of an average of 3 draws outside of your opening hand each game. That means as a 4-of, you have a 39.95% chance of seeing it in your opening grip and a 21.35% chance of topdecking one, *if* you didn't see one in your opening. If you did, you're looking at a 16.33% chance of topdecking one. Running it as a 1, a 2 or a 3 of doesn't change the ratios, it simply lowers the odds of seeing it period. A 2-of, for instance, will show up in your opening 22.15% of the time and off the top, assuming none in the opening, 11.1% of the time. Saw one in your opening? The chance to draw your other one drops to a depressing 5.66%.

In order for you to get to a 50/50 shot of draw v. topdeck, you need the game to go on for 7 turns on the draw or 8 turns on the play. That's WAY too late for burn to get a card that says "R: deal 2.5 damage to target creature or player". As a 4 of, assuming an average of 3 draws per game, your average damage output from Thunderous Wrath is .97 damage. Death Spark is more damage, on average, than Thunderous Wrath.


The math, for those of you interested.

You've got a 60% chance of seeing 0 of a 4-of in your opening hand, a 34% chance of seeing 1 and a 6% chance of seeing 2. The chance of seeing 3 or 4 is negligible (0.4% for 3, 0.007% for 4). For simplification of the math, we're going to consider 2, 3 and 4 the same as 1, as it's not going to throw our end calculations off enough to matter.

So roughly a 60% chance of not seeing a Wrath in the opening and a 40% chance of seeing 1. But P/D matters here, since drawing one in your first draw on the play is the same as drawing it in your opening 7 (after all, you can't cast it unless you happen to have a Simian Spirit Guide in your hand and if you're running SSG in burn, you have worse problems than being bad at math). So on the draw, your first draw is dead. That increases your drawn percentage to 44% in the "opening" (so 56% to not see 1). Since you have a 50% chance of P/D, we'll split the difference and call it a 42% chance to draw it in your opening. Again, average of P/D, you've got a 21.5% chance of drawing 1 or more in your next 3 draws. Now, your chance of drawing 1 is 20.25%; your chance of drawing 2 or 3 accounts for ~1.3% (I know those don't add up exactly, that's the magic of rounding). So again, we're going to ignore the possibility of 2 or 3, since the chance of it happening is so low.

So if you don't see 1 in your opening hand, we're calling it a 21.5% chance to draw one by turn 4. But what if you do see 1 in your opening? That does happen 42% of the time. Well then your average chance to draw one by turn 4 drops to 16.5%. So if you have a 21.5% chance of drawing it out of 58% of your openings and a 16.5% chance of drawing it out of the other 42%, you're talking a 19.5% chance of drawing one turns 2, 3 or 4 for all openings. That means you're getting 5 damage 19.5% of the time and 0 damage the other 80.5%. That's less than 1 damage, on average. Since the standard for burn is that each card is ~3 damage, this is decidedly below the curve.

[JDK]

You have to take Cantrips into account as well (in terms of seeing cards and making miracle-cards in your opening hand useful).

[DragoFireheart]

Also, can we all stop pretending that having the card as your topcard is a minimal drawback.. It requires setup. Miracles just make Brainstorm and SDT juicier targets for countermagic.


- Is everyone ignoring the Elephant in the room? The logic that "oh, X card is fine because I can counter it or Y card" is bad logic.

Emrakul is bad because I can counter Sneak Attack / Show n Tell.
Entomb is bad because I can counter Reanimate / Exhume / Animate Dead
Tendrils of Agony is bad because I can counter Burning Wish / other storm spells.



You have to take Cantrips into account as well (in terms of seeing cards and making miracle-cards in your opening hand useful).

- I think he's talking about Burn and not U/R Delver.

[Justin]

This is an excellent point.

Also, if by running Temporal Mastery you're are encouraging opponents to counter your cantrips, then you are helping your cause. If opponents use their force of wills and such on your brainstorm because they fear you time walking them, then that's one less counterspell that they will have for the other business spells in your deck.

[JDK]

- I think he's talking about Burn and not U/R Delver.

Just read the "burn". ^^

As for your examples (Card X is bad because I can counter its enabler), you should switch the place of Entomb and the Reanimation spells.

[SpikeyMikey]

I was talking about burn. U/R Delver is too difficult to model. You start throwing Brainstorm and fetches into the equation and the calculations become too unwieldy. That's to say nothing of Ponder, which is not only a Brainstorm with a built-in shuffle for the purposes of calculating the likelihood of seeing a card but is also dependent on game state and what other cards are in the top 3. I could still come up with a reasonable accurate approximation, but I'd have to spend the whole day doing it and I'm not doing that kind of work unless I'm getting paid for it!

In U/R or RUG Delver, I would guess that your average damage is still going to be less than 3. However, I can understand people playing it over Chain Lightning anyway since you trade a little raw damage for the utility of being able to use it to kill Tarmogoyfs or KotRs that would normally be outside of your burn range.

Vexing Devil belongs in every fast red deck, whether it's burn, Cat Sligh or U/R Delver. Devil is above the curve. It has been my experience that it is always correct to pay the 4 life, even if you have the spot removal for it. Every time I've blown an StP on a Devil, I find myself getting smacked with a Hellspark Elemental afterwards or not having the removal spell for the Confidant that comes down the next turn. As a bigger Lava Spike, it's a good call for anything looking for a fast kill.

[dontbiteitholmes]

/snip

Yeah burn miracle is janky, I'm not even playing it in my Standard burn deck I don't see why anyone would consider it in Legacy.

Reforge, Terminus, and Mastery seem like the three most likely to have any impact in Legacy and in that order IMO. I really only expect to see Reforge make any immediate impact. I think Mastery is getting blown out of proportion. If Control has Jace out they should be winning anyways. If Delver has Delver out they are probably better off playing spells to protect threats. There might be a deck somewhere but we'll see.

The red RX one is going to ruin Standard for anyone would is tired of Prime Time. Just what Ramp needed, a conditionally better Slagstorm that can also end the game while clearing blockers for Titan.

[KobeBryan]

Yea. I agree. Reforge will blow the format out of the water the first few months. Then mastery will come in months later after much more testing.

Reforge seems like it can go in any deck, tempo related and burn related.

[Syaoran]

I'm sorry, but I can't believe your hype, since you're making money off of it.

"Hey everyone, look, I've made the most broken, dominate deck since flash-hulk, it'll win everything. Just give me a few dollars and I'll show it to you!"


Can you see how that causes someone to wonder if you're just trying to make money, as opposed to actually trying to show us good stuff with temporal mastery?


Try this instead: Post the list, and have people pay for the full interaction list/ideas/combos/sideboard works

[SpikeyMikey]

I'm sorry, but I can't believe your hype, since you're making money off of it.

"Hey everyone, look, I've made the most broken, dominate deck since flash-hulk, it'll win everything. Just give me a few dollars and I'll show it to you!"


Can you see how that causes someone to wonder if you're just trying to make money, as opposed to actually trying to show us good stuff with temporal mastery?


Try this instead: Post the list, and have people pay for the full interaction list/ideas/combos/sideboard works

Look, I'm not paying for it either. That's not because I have anything against paying for it, just because I play serious Legacy maybe half a dozen times a year. But seriously people, get off this trip. It's $3 for the premium. $3. You're Magic players. You spend more than that on pretty much every fucking card you buy. And it's not like the model is unheard of. There's this site by the name of Starcity, I hear that 1/2 their articles require a premium membership. Web sites cost money. Stephen's time is worth money. Spoiling a deck that he's probably going to take to the next tournament is worth money. You want to piss and moan over less than the cost of a gallon of gas, fine, piss and moan, but do it somewhere fucking else.

[DragoFireheart]

Look, I'm not paying for it either. That's not because I have anything against paying for it, just because I play serious Legacy maybe half a dozen times a year. But seriously people, get off this trip. It's $3 for the premium. $3. You're Magic players. You spend more than that on pretty much every fucking card you buy. And it's not like the model is unheard of. There's this site by the name of Starcity, I hear that 1/2 their articles require a premium membership. Web sites cost money. Stephen's time is worth money. Spoiling a deck that he's probably going to take to the next tournament is worth money. You want to piss and moan over less than the cost of a gallon of gas, fine, piss and moan, but do it somewhere fucking else.

-Ignoring the fact that your logic is highly flawed, I think you put a bit too much thought into that post.

[Syaoran]

It's not the price I'm complaining about, but the conflict of interest in writing the article and charging for it. If he gets people excited enough in the article, they'll pay money, as opposed to "eh, I've got a decent deck idea that'll probably work". My point is, since he's making money off of it, it's in his interest to make it sound as exciting and as good as possible, instead of an unbiased view of it. Conflict of interest.

[Julian23]

Blablabla. That's all I hear. Fact is, we don't know whether Stephen is biased or not. Stating that you do actually know because of this "conflict of interests" bullshit is polemic.

Buy it if you want it. But don't accuse the author for advertising his article in the first place. A case can be made for allowing a thread for it on The Source, but we've had these kind of threads for nearly all relevant SCG premium articles, so don't act as if this was something unheared of.

[JACO]

I'm sorry, but I can't believe your hype, since you're making money off of it.

"Hey everyone, look, I've made the most broken, dominate deck since flash-hulk, it'll win everything. Just give me a few dollars and I'll show it to you!"


Can you see how that causes someone to wonder if you're just trying to make money, as opposed to actually trying to show us good stuff with temporal mastery?


Try this instead: Post the list, and have people pay for the full interaction list/ideas/combos/sideboard worksDo you do this every time someone posts a premium article? It does nothing productive in a thread that's, you know, here so you can discuss the contents of the article. If you have a problem with anyone charging for anything perhaps you can join the thoughtless Occupy movement, and take your talents elsewhere.


Yea. I agree. Reforge will blow the format out of the water the first few months. Then mastery will come in months later after much more testing.

Reforge seems like it can go in any deck, tempo related and burn related.I don't know that Reforge can go in any deck, but I don't see nearly enough talk of it in combo in Legacy. It's a draw 7 for five mana that is conditionally bonkers, and at the very least you can Burning Wish or Infernal Tutor into it for the exact same cost as Memory Jar or Ad Nauseam. You can Personal Tutor for it (or Tendrils of Agony, or Ill-Gotten Gains, or Past in Flames, or Empty the Warrens, all of which can potentially go in the same deck).

[Koby]

I don't know that Reforge can go in any deck, but I don't see nearly enough talk of it in combo in Legacy. It's a draw 7 for five mana that is conditionally bonkers, and at the very least you can Burning Wish or Infernal Tutor into it for the exact same cost as Memory Jar or Ad Nauseam. You can Personal Tutor for it (or Tendrils of Agony, or Ill-Gotten Gains, or Past in Flames, or Empty the Warrens, all of which can potentially go in the same deck).

I don't think anyone doubted it would not be played in Storm decks. There's only so much strategy to discuss before the unanimous decision that a card is a perfect fit for degenerate combos. Shall we discuss how bonkers Memory Jar is in the scope of Saga block Standard too?

[Michael Keller]

Blablabla. That's all I hear.

Pretty much what he said.

[Vacrix]

Why have so many people jumped on the band wagon of 'if it looks good on paper its broken'?


Personal Tutor? Really? Into Reforge the Soul... So you're going to play Diminishing Returns for 1R on turn 3? Good job. There are better storm engines. It will get played in Belcher and maybe a glass house but I've tested it quite a lot and its NOT breaking open the format. You can't throw it into any deck just because its well costed at a conditional 1R. Burn doesn't want to play it at 3RR because they should already be winning. And again... at 1R, when are you doing that... turn 3? When you win on turn 4? This doesn't help any of the matches that Burn is losing.. to shit like COP Red, Chill, and Warmth.

Hell fucking Glimpse Kobolds looks really cool on paper but try playing it and see what happens.

Test your fucking shit, then complain about how the format is going to take a nose dive. Otherwise, I must say I'm enjoying everyone's unfounded panic attacks. Facepalm of approval.

[Zilla]

It's not the price I'm complaining about, but the conflict of interest in writing the article and charging for it. If he gets people excited enough in the article, they'll pay money, as opposed to "eh, I've got a decent deck idea that'll probably work". My point is, since he's making money off of it, it's in his interest to make it sound as exciting and as good as possible, instead of an unbiased view of it. Conflict of interest.
It's a conflict of interest to want people to get excited about something you put a ton of thought and effort into? Give me a fucking break.

Let me make this super clear: there's nothing wrong with posting links to premium content on these boards, so long as it's relevant to Legacy and the author is interested in discussing its contents with this community.

In the future, complaints about premium content will be moderated with extreme prejudice. And no, it's not because we're on the take or some other bullshit conspiracy theory; it's because it's incredibly distracting to the actual discussion. Thanks in advance for your understanding and compliance.

[JACO]

Why have so many people jumped on the band wagon of 'if it looks good on paper its broken'?


Personal Tutor? Really? Into Reforge the Soul... So you're going to play Diminishing Returns for 1R on turn 3? Good job. There are better storm engines. It will get played in Belcher and maybe a glass house but I've tested it quite a lot and its NOT breaking open the format. You can't throw it into any deck just because its well costed at a conditional 1R. Burn doesn't want to play it at 3RR because they should already be winning. And again... at 1R, when are you doing that... turn 3? When you win on turn 4? This doesn't help any of the matches that Burn is losing.. to shit like COP Red, Chill, and Warmth.

Hell fucking Glimpse Kobolds looks really cool on paper but try playing it and see what happens.

Test your fucking shit, then complain about how the format is going to take a nose dive. Otherwise, I must say I'm enjoying everyone's unfounded panic attacks. Facepalm of approval.I have not mentioned anything about how broken a specific card is or isn't, nor am I panicked about Reforge the Souls or Temporal Mastery. What I said was it's not getting nearly enough attention for how powerful the effect is, especially with how it's costed. Diminishing Returns is not even close to the power level of Reforge the Soul, and the drawback of Diminishing Returns is terrible which is why it is rarely played.

Personal Tutor is merely an option, and a cheap one at that. One Blue mana for a tutor at Instant speed was deemed too good for the format, and while Personal is no Mystical, it's actually not that bad when it allows you to fetch:
1) a draw 7, that can potentially be cast for 2 mana
2) a win condition
3) other utility or removal

Aggressively costed tutors have proven playable in Legacy time and time again, even when they have limiting factors (Merchant Scroll, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Grim Tutor, etc.).

I don't think Reforge the Soul is relevant in Burn, but I do think it will be a key tool in combo decks in the very near future. I've already begun testing a couple of lists right now and if any of them have merit there will be some free content about them on EC in the near future. ;)

[Vacrix]

That comment was directed at the thread.


Personal Tutor isn't Mystical because the opponent knows its coming, and if your opponent hasn't put you on a deck yet, they certainly can after seeing you put a Reforge on top. That lets them more effectively play cantrips on their turn and make the right call to respond. Mystical Tutor was an EoT, oh shit I'm fucked cause he just found Ad Nauseam, Entomb, Reanimate, protection, etc. Also, Mystical allowed you to hide your business on top in response to Duress, something Personal Tutor cannot do at Sorcery speed. Also, it can only find Sorceries, which cuts you out of a lot of really good options that made Mystical Tutor so broken, shit like Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, Force of Will, Dark Ritual, and most of the red rituals, namely Seething Song.

It could get played for all I know, but its really not worthy of Mystical Tutor stasis, even with something as Brutal as a 1R Wheel of Fortune line of play.

Also, the drawback of Diminishing Returns has nothing to do with removing 10 cards from the game.. or Demonic Consultation wouldn't be so unbelievably broken, and Belcher and TES wouldn't have played it in the wishboard for so long. The drawback is that it costs UU and there is no way to effectively accelerate to it except in decks like High Tide, which have far better options anyway. Reforge is a great card because it costs RR, not UU. The Miracle cost is something extra, which is going to be largely irrelevant most of the time unless you build around it, which you shouldn't... because its amazing in Belcher. Hitting 3RR is no problem; Seething Song.

[majikal]

Also, the drawback of Diminishing Returns has nothing to do with removing 10 cards from the game.. or Demonic Consultation wouldn't be so unbelievably broken, and Belcher and TES wouldn't have played it in the wishboard for so long. The drawback is that it costs UU and there is no way to effectively accelerate to it except in decks like High Tide, which have far better options anyway. Reforge is a great card because it costs RR, not UU. The Miracle cost is something extra, which is going to be largely irrelevant most of the time unless you build around it, which you shouldn't... because its amazing in Belcher. Hitting 3RR is no problem; Seething Song.
No, the drawback is that it takes your graveyard with it, so you can't abuse all the rituals you dumped in there before casting Diminishing Returns.

[Smmenen]

No, the drawback is that it takes your graveyard with it, so you can't abuse all the rituals you dumped in there before casting Diminishing Returns.

It's both. The fact that Diminishing Returns shuffles your library, costs UU, and exiles 10 cards all matter.

The UU is much less castable than RR or BB because of the presence of both red and black rituals.

The Exiling actually does matter in Legacy because some Legacy combo decks would only run 1 Tendrils, which it hopes to find with Infernal tutor.

The Reforge the Soul deck I publish in this article I think is a great start to breaking the card.

[Final Ritual]

Blue mana in ritual based storm decks is the most color intensive to produce, UU being very difficult without jewelry or mana rocks. RTS being red makes it infinitely easier to cast.

[lordofthepit]

Caleb Durward posted a Dream Halls list running Temporal Mastery, which is the first such Legacy decklist I've seen that doesn't suck (I haven't seen Stephen's), in no small part because being a blue card to pitch to Dream Halls is also relevant. It also goes without saying that Dream Halls can actually use the extra turn unlike many other combo lists (an absolute non-bo with Meditate and Pact of Negation, for instance).

[dontbiteitholmes]

It's both. The fact that Diminishing Returns shuffles your library, costs UU, and exiles 10 cards all matter.

The UU is much less castable than RR or BB because of the presence of both red and black rituals.

The Exiling actually does matter in Legacy because some Legacy combo decks would only run 1 Tendrils, which it hopes to find with Infernal tutor.

The Reforge the Soul deck I publish in this article I think is a great start to breaking the card.

So curiosity got the best of me today and I ponied up the $3, mostly because I wanted to see the Reforge the Souls list as I am working on breaking the card myself.

Let me be the first to tell you you are doing Reforge wrong. In your deck it basically just replaces Charbelcher. So you run a few extra lands like you said and some protection, but in most cases where you resolve Reforge you could more or less just win the game with Charbelcher instead. The other lists are interesting, I don't think you've truly broken Mastery, but i didn't test too much as I am working on my own lists and your lists at least provide a solid starting point for people to explore.

For anyone else curious the article is absolutely huge as he pretty much goes over every card he thinks is playable in Eternal from the new set and there are several more decklists than I expected. There is a lot of information in there, to be honest it's so much I'll probably never read it all. In the end even though i didn't learn anything about Reforge I didn't already know (as I've been testing it quite a bit). Though skimming the article inspired me to work on my version of Reforge.dec and I have to say I think I officially broke it, so in the end $3 well spent.

If my recent testing is any indication I see Reforge getting banned pretty quickly. I would post my list at this point, but after my grind session tonight I'm 99% sure I'm going to be playing this in Madison at the SCG next weekend so I will post my list as soon as that's over. I'm actually feeling so good about this build I feel like I need to keep it in house until I get to use it.

[rxavage]

So curiosity got the best of me today and I ponied up the $3, mostly because I wanted to see the Reforge the Souls list as I am working on breaking the card myself.

Let me be the first to tell you you are doing Reforge wrong. In your deck it basically just replaces Charbelcher. So you run a few extra lands like you said and some protection, but in most cases where you resolve Reforge you could more or less just win the game with Charbelcher instead. The other lists are interesting, I don't think you've truly broken Mastery, but i didn't test too much as I am working on my own lists and your lists at least provide a solid starting point for people to explore.

For anyone else curious the article is absolutely huge as he pretty much goes over every card he thinks is playable in Eternal from the new set and there are several more decklists than I expected. There is a lot of information in there, to be honest it's so much I'll probably never read it all. In the end even though i didn't learn anything about Reforge I didn't already know (as I've been testing it quite a bit). Though skimming the article inspired me to work on my version of Reforge.dec and I have to say I think I officially broke it, so in the end $3 well spent.

If my recent testing is any indication I see Reforge getting banned pretty quickly. I would post my list at this point, but after my grind session tonight I'm 99% sure I'm going to be playing this in Madison at the SCG next weekend so I will post my list as soon as that's over. I'm actually feeling so good about this build I feel like I need to keep it in house until I get to use it.



Lol, I feel the same way about the reforge list I've been working on and plan on taking to scg Prov this weekend.

[Smmenen]

So curiosity got the best of me today and I ponied up the $3, mostly because I wanted to see the Reforge the Souls list as I am working on breaking the card myself.

Let me be the first to tell you you are doing Reforge wrong. In your deck it basically just replaces Charbelcher. So you run a few extra lands like you said and some protection, but in most cases where you resolve Reforge you could more or less just win the game with Charbelcher instead. The other lists are interesting, I don't think you've truly broken Mastery, but i didn't test too much as I am working on my own lists and your lists at least provide a solid starting point for people to explore.

For anyone else curious the article is absolutely huge as he pretty much goes over every card he thinks is playable in Eternal from the new set and there are several more decklists than I expected. There is a lot of information in there, to be honest it's so much I'll probably never read it all. In the end even though i didn't learn anything about Reforge I didn't already know (as I've been testing it quite a bit). Though skimming the article inspired me to work on my version of Reforge.dec and I have to say I think I officially broke it, so in the end $3 well spent.

If my recent testing is any indication I see Reforge getting banned pretty quickly. I would post my list at this point, but after my grind session tonight I'm 99% sure I'm going to be playing this in Madison at the SCG next weekend so I will post my list as soon as that's over. I'm actually feeling so good about this build I feel like I need to keep it in house until I get to use it.

I appreciate both the positive feedback and the constructive criticism. I'm glad my work has inspired further investigation and work on your part. If my article inspired you or others to break the format, it was worthwhile.
I think there are some broken things here.

My frame of reference for Belcher does originate in Vintage, though -- where Memory Jar is and has always been broken in that that deck. That's why I use it mostly in that vein. I'm not convinced that Past in Flames is going to be the most broken shell (although note I use that as a B. Wish target), and I hope that's not what you are doing...

[Final Fortune]

Honestly I don't think you need Personal Tutor or Brainstorm to make Reforge the Soul any good, just the 3RR casting cost and the occassional "luck-sack" top deck is perfectly fine, because the format isn't really prepared for the 4xEmpty the Warrens that comes with it.

I wouldn't cut Belcher for Reforge the Souls, I'd cut Burning Wish and Lion's Eye Diamond because the difference between 5cc and 6cc in that deck is huge for a threat, altho' it'd open up the deck to counter spells even more so bleh.

[Dark Ritual]

Honestly I don't think you need Personal Tutor or Brainstorm to make Reforge the Soul any good, just the 3RR casting cost and the occassional "luck-sack" top deck is perfectly fine, because the format isn't really prepared for the 4xEmpty the Warrens that comes with it.

I wouldn't cut Belcher for Reforge the Souls, I'd cut Burning Wish and Lion's Eye Diamond because the difference between 5cc and 6cc in that deck is huge for a threat, altho' it'd open up the deck to counter spells even more so bleh.

Good luck playing without black lotus. I automatically put 4 LED's in every list of storm I play, as it is easily the most broken card in the deck. I can't imagine running without a full set.

On reforge, the card is absolutely broken. So you raised the cost 1R from wheel of fortune. That 2 mana doesn't make that big a difference, and it's on the power level of memory jar although it's a little behind because jar is an artifact that can be recurred quite easily.

@DBIH: Can't wait to see the list you're talking about in action, hope you take down Madison as I'm unsure if I'm going yet.

[Final Fortune]

There's a difference between a card that either offsets the cost of tutors and generates mana in a deck like TES and a card that doesn't actually do anything to help you cast your threats in a deck like Belcher, it's no where near Black Lotus good.

On the power level of Memory Jar is quite an over statement, the Miracle cost is actually something of a Red Herring.

[dontbiteitholmes]

There's a difference between a card that either offsets the cost of tutors and generates mana in a deck like TES and a card that doesn't actually do anything to help you cast your threats in a deck like Belcher, it's no where near Black Lotus good.

On the power level of Memory Jar is quite an over statement, the Miracle cost is actually something of a Red Herring.

It activates Charbelcher and lets you cast stuff off Burning Wish you would have no business casting otherwise. Also if you run Reforge it is crazy good to break one in resp to Reforge as you pretty much always win the game if it resolves.

[ivanpei]

Miracles are a dud at the latest SCG. More thunderous wrath than temporal in the top 32. Ok miracle panic is officially over. The funny thing is, those playing the miracles were at the bottom rungs of the top 32. Temporal price is gonna tank.

[KobeBryan]

Miracles are a dud at the latest SCG. More thunderous wrath than temporal in the top 32. Ok miracle panic is officially over. The funny thing is, those playing the miracles were at the bottom rungs of the top 32. Temporal price is gonna tank.

wow based on one event???

I always said temporal was not good as a 4 of. but as a 2 of in a mid range deck is perfect.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Miracles are a dud at the latest SCG. More thunderous wrath than temporal in the top 32. Ok miracle panic is officially over. The funny thing is, those playing the miracles were at the bottom rungs of the top 32. Temporal price is gonna tank.

Still too early to call it. I think the fact that several Masteries showed up in the top 32 shows that the card is at least playable. Still the fact the top 32 only had 2 decks running it means it's probably not going to ruin the format. I wonder how many copies were played in the event as a whole? If the bottom tables were all full of Mastery decks that seems to say a lot but we probably won't have an answer to that for a while. No blue in the top 4 at this SCG and a lot of rogue decks in the top 32 seems to imply that maybe blue players got a little too greedy with the "Time Walks" and scrubbed out early. We'll see what happens in Madison.

[Pippin]

More hype and "the sky is falling!!!!1" mentality next time please. Will be funnier to watch than this where some people were actually rational about miracle cards.

[dontbiteitholmes]

More hype and "the sky is falling!!!!1" mentality next time please. Will be funnier to watch than this where some people were actually rational about miracle cards.

I've said from the start Mastery was probably not going to break anything and we were all probably right on that. I still have concerns about Reforge though, the more I test it the better it seems but only playing it against good opponents will let me know for sure. Still I don't think everyone is going to throw Mastery in the garbage and give up quite yet. I wouldn't be surprised to see more than 4 in the next top 32 but I still don't think it will leave a deep impact. I still think that 5/5 hexproof Angel is the sleeper card in this set.

Ironically I think the reason I hate miracles the most is that they are going to lead to millions of FNM blowouts vs. noobs. I've already had some kid rip a Terminus and put a Stromkirk Noble and 2 Stormblood Berserkers on the bottom of my library on his turn 3. Top deck blowout is stupid.

[Gui]

Interesting to see Thunderous Wrath, a card that is -way- less playable than Temporal Mastery because it cannot be 'fixed' by having a FoW, being played as much as 4-of.

Anyone got data on how many Temporal Masteries were played @scg? I think people got skeptical about using it, and not many lists featured it at all...

[kombatkiwi]

I've said from the start Mastery was probably not going to break anything and we were all probably right on that. I still have concerns about Reforge though, the more I test it the better it seems but only playing it against good opponents will let me know for sure. Still I don't think everyone is going to throw Mastery in the garbage and give up quite yet. I wouldn't be surprised to see more than 4 in the next top 32 but I still don't think it will leave a deep impact. I still think that 5/5 hexproof Angel is the sleeper card in this set.

Ironically I think the reason I hate miracles the most is that they are going to lead to millions of FNM blowouts vs. noobs. I've already had some kid rip a Terminus and put a Stromkirk Noble and 2 Stormblood Berserkers on the bottom of my library on his turn 3. Top deck blowout is stupid.

We had a $1000 standard event last weekend and a WUR Miracle deck was playing against UB Zombies: The Miracle player Think Twiced in his opponent's declare attackers step and hit a Terminus. In the same game I think he miracled another Terminus in his draw step a few turns later haha. Zombies man was not happy.

It does seem a bit silly though because it's not like you can really play around it.

[dontbiteitholmes]

We had a $1000 standard event last weekend and a WUR Miracle deck was playing against UB Zombies: The Miracle player Think Twiced in his opponent's declare attackers step and hit a Terminus. In the same game I think he miracled another Terminus in his draw step a few turns later haha. Zombies man was not happy.

It does seem a bit silly though because it's not like you can really play around it.

Yeah I mean I don't expect it to happen often but I know I'll be at an FNM or something and some random will have like 1 or 2 MD miracles and just randomly miracle into it at the exact perfect moment to blow me out. I'm really not a fan of that. I still ended up beating the kid who Yugioh'd up the Terminus 2-1. He got that game barely, of course he also topdecked into that return all non-land cards miracle the turn before I killed him with a Shrine that same game. So fun to lose to random draws.

[dahcmai]

Most people default to what they are used to. I know I wouldn't go to a larger event with anything less than the deck I expect to do the best with. That sure as hell wouldn't be a prototype deck I haven't had a chance to test much against the entire gauntlet.

I have a Doomsday deck I have been playing around with Temporal Mastery in, but it's not like it's easy to see how good the card is in that deck without a ton of games and I only just packed some Masterys to play around with a few days ago.

That seems a likelier reason for the first SCG having Miracles absent. It's not like they are uber bad squire worthy cards.

[Lord Seth]

Well I think a problem with trying to judge the results of the SCG on the viability of miracles (or Avacyn Restored in general) in Legacy is the fact that the Legacy Open occurred only two days after the set came out, and some people who might have wanted to play with the cards might not have even had them yet. I think this week's tournament might give us a better idea, as people have had a week to get their hands on the cards now.

[John Cox]

Yeah I preordered a playset of temporal mastery and they haven't come yet. I think when they become more available we'll see different results.

[SpikeyMikey]

The same thing happened with Green Sun's Zenith. First SCG Indy last year, no one was playing the card, but again, you're talking a day after release. The next week is when it started popping up. I expect Madison will see a heavier use of AVR cards. I'll be really interested to see how Tamiyo fits into the format. I've been messing around with her a bit and she's as good as Jace, if a bit more expensive. I think she's going to explode in Standard and will probably see at least some fringe Legacy play. I plan on trying to have someone trade for some for me this weekend :P

[luckme10]

The card itself also offers another line of complexity when playing in decks, especially with SDT. There are many decisions like should I expend the mana I have now to set it up? Is it better to cast the turn 2 brainstorm to do so? Perhaps I should tuck it away behind one card so that I can leave my mana open that turn to take two open landed consecutive turns. And worst of all, it often forces you to rethink shuffling effects such as when to crack fetchlands or play Stoneforge. Basically, it'll take some time to get used to, like figuring out when to actually want to set it up or just play down other cards, let alone finding the optimum deck to use it in.

[dontbiteitholmes]

The same thing happened with Green Sun's Zenith. First SCG Indy last year, no one was playing the card, but again, you're talking a day after release. The next week is when it started popping up. I expect Madison will see a heavier use of AVR cards. I'll be really interested to see how Tamiyo fits into the format. I've been messing around with her a bit and she's as good as Jace, if a bit more expensive. I think she's going to explode in Standard and will probably see at least some fringe Legacy play. I plan on trying to have someone trade for some for me this weekend :P

I was at that SCG there was Green Sun's Zenith all over the place in Legacy and Standard. I played 1x in my Enchantress list that day as well. At the same time though GSZ is a rare and Mastery was a $35 mythic (is now ~$20 mythic).

[ivanpei]

After testing temporal abit, I've found out that the major problem with it is that brainstorm is used to set up the walk instead of fixing your hand. Brainstorm is usually the best card in a blue deck. It turns what is a shit hand into an ok one with the help of a fetchland. Most times, + 2 card quality (from the fetch shuffle) is often better than un-dudding a temporal in hand.

I guess it'll take a while to sink in. Temporal is not walk 2.0. It needs you to use the best card in your deck to set it up instead of doing what brainstorm does best, shoving dead lands/crap cards back into the deck. So is the walk worth it? In delver I'd say yes, assuming you get your creatures to stick early. Otherwise, it's a cantrip that screws up your brainstorm.

[rxavage]

After testing temporal abit, I've found out that the major problem with it is that brainstorm is used to set up the walk instead of fixing your hand. Brainstorm is usually the best card in a blue deck. It turns what is a shit hand into an ok one with the help of a fetchland. Most times, + 2 card quality (from the fetch shuffle) is often better than un-dudding a temporal in hand.

I guess it'll take a while to sink in. Temporal is not walk 2.0. It needs you to use the best card in your deck to set it up instead of doing what brainstorm does best, shoving dead lands/crap cards back into the deck. So is the walk worth it? In delver I'd say yes, assuming you get your creatures to stick early. Otherwise, it's a cantrip that screws up your brainstorm.


Temporal Mastery is just a better, situationally, Temporal Manipulation.

[CorpT]

After testing temporal abit, I've found out that the major problem with it is that brainstorm is used to set up the walk instead of fixing your hand. Brainstorm is usually the best card in a blue deck. It turns what is a shit hand into an ok one with the help of a fetchland. Most times, + 2 card quality (from the fetch shuffle) is often better than un-dudding a temporal in hand.

I guess it'll take a while to sink in. Temporal is not walk 2.0. It needs you to use the best card in your deck to set it up instead of doing what brainstorm does best, shoving dead lands/crap cards back into the deck. So is the walk worth it? In delver I'd say yes, assuming you get your creatures to stick early. Otherwise, it's a cantrip that screws up your brainstorm.

This is 100% right. I realized a similar thing. We're used to Brainstorm = Ancestral because we get to throw two bad cards back and keep three. With TM, that's not the case. You put one good card (TM) back and one other, then draw the TM to cast it and next turn you'll either have to fetch away the bad card, or draw it. Not exactly the best use of TM.

Maybe Jace is the way to use it. I'm not sure.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

After testing temporal abit, I've found out that the major problem with it is that brainstorm is used to set up the walk instead of fixing your hand. Brainstorm is usually the best card in a blue deck. It turns what is a shit hand into an ok one with the help of a fetchland. Most times, + 2 card quality (from the fetch shuffle) is often better than un-dudding a temporal in hand.

I guess it'll take a while to sink in. Temporal is not walk 2.0. It needs you to use the best card in your deck to set it up instead of doing what brainstorm does best, shoving dead lands/crap cards back into the deck. So is the walk worth it? In delver I'd say yes, assuming you get your creatures to stick early. Otherwise, it's a cantrip that screws up your brainstorm.

This is what I have been saying since the card was spoiled.

[Koby]

This is what I have been saying since the card was spoiled.

Ditto, and also earlier in the discussion:



Turn 1 delver, turn 2 flip and <Bolt/Daze/Fow/Stifle/Pierce> is more than enough to win games right now. Wasting Brainstorm to setup a Miracle is an abysmal use of the cant rip rather than using it to fix your draws and improve hand quality.

[DragoFireheart]

After testing temporal abit, I've found out that the major problem with it is that brainstorm is used to set up the walk instead of fixing your hand. Brainstorm is usually the best card in a blue deck. It turns what is a shit hand into an ok one with the help of a fetchland. Most times, + 2 card quality (from the fetch shuffle) is often better than un-dudding a temporal in hand.

I guess it'll take a while to sink in. Temporal is not walk 2.0. It needs you to use the best card in your deck to set it up instead of doing what brainstorm does best, shoving dead lands/crap cards back into the deck. So is the walk worth it? In delver I'd say yes, assuming you get your creatures to stick early. Otherwise, it's a cantrip that screws up your brainstorm.

How about late game? I can see it causing issues early game, but what about after the round has been dragging out?

[ivanpei]

I can't say too much about other decks, but in RUG Delver, a well timed temporal can win a damage rest handily. This assumes you have evasive guys or an open board, because it doesn't help any if your goose and goyfs are staring at blockers.

It's good, but simply situational. Playing more than 2 is unwise. I'd treat it as a top of the curve reach spell, which is pretty much what it is. In jace decks, if you can get jace to stick and brainstorm, I can safely say you're pretty much ahead and temporal is win more. However I'd say the real winner winner chicken dinner of miracle cards is the red one in terms of reach. It finishes the game even if you have no dudes on the table or if you are behind on board position by frying an opposing big.

And this is reflected in the SCG t32 where they were more thunderous wraths than temporals. The main thing to consider when playing miracles is: is it worth -1/2 card quality from brainstorm to set it up? Of course if you lucksacking draw it, then all the more power to you.

[luckme10]

The real trick to playing temporal mastery well is to play it like you don't have it. When you have brainstorm and Temporal Mastery, resist the urge to tuck it away. There's no reason why one can't delay tucking away Temporal Mastery, in order to cast the brainstorm as it becomes necessary. When you are using brainstorm to guard against discard, or to tuck a counterspell away, or to set up sensei's divining, an extra turn is never going to be bad, regardless what turn it's cast on. So I think the better players wouldn't even consider wasting their brainstorms just to set it up. Likewise, despite having a temporal in hand, there's no reason why you shouldn't continue to use brainstorm the traditional way, like before cracking a fetch, in situations where you need to dig for quality cards. If you have enough brainstorm like effects and shuffle cards, there will be another chance later to tuck it away. It is in this sense that Temporal Mastery requires very little to set up, but patience to use properly.

[Oiolosse]

The real trick to playing temporal mastery well is to play it like you don't have it. If you resist the urge to shuffle it back into your hand, even when you have a brainstorm, there's no reason why you can't delay tucking away Temporal Mastery, just as effectively, when you actually need to cast the brainstorm. When you are using brainstorm to guard against discard, or to tuck a counterspell away, or to set up sensei's divining, an extra turn is never going to be bad, regardless what turn it's cast on. So you shouldn't even be worrying about wasting your brainstorms just to set it up. Likewise, despite having a temporal in hand, there's no reason why you shouldn't continue to use brainstorm the traditional way, like before cracking a fetch, in situations where you need to dig for quality cards. If you have enough brainstorm like effects and shuffle cards, there will be another chance to tuck it away. It is in this sense that Temporal Mastery requires very little to set up, but patience to use properly.

Well put. It will serve better mid-late game when you've stuck jace or rip brainstorm. Playing well with this card will require patience.

[KobeBryan]

How about late game? I can see it causing issues early game, but what about after the round has been dragging out?

The key to temporal is to not build around it. If you draw it great..use it. Don't waste your brainstorm on setting it up.

If you happen to brainstorm, you throw it away at that time.

You don't need more than 2 in the deck.

[bruizar]

I find it interesting that Personal Tutor has not really gotten any testing, only theory crafting. I think that Personal Tutor can still be very powerful with the Miracle mechanic (Termporal Mastery to ramp mana into jace or double jace activations/Terminus/Entreat the Angel).

[nedleeds]

If you are playing it late game just play Time Warp ... at least that one stays in your yard for Snapcaster stupidity

[Lord Seth]

I find it interesting that Personal Tutor has not really gotten any testing, only theory crafting. I think that Personal Tutor can still be very powerful with the Miracle mechanic (Termporal Mastery to ramp mana into jace or double jace activations/Terminus/Entreat the Angel).It is quite probable that a number of decks at the SCG did have Personal Tutor, but none made it into the top 32 and thus weren't published to the public. If so, I'd have to say I think the fact none of them got into the top 32 speaks a little for itself.

[lordofthepit]

I find it interesting that Personal Tutor has not really gotten any testing, only theory crafting. I think that Personal Tutor can still be very powerful with the Miracle mechanic (Termporal Mastery to ramp mana into jace or double jace activations/Terminus/Entreat the Angel).

Personal Tutor for Temporal Mastery is basically giving your opponent a free Time Walk. Not sure about grabbing Terminus or Entreat, but I don't think those are strong plays either.

If Personal Tutor does not get played in a combo deck, especially with the new printing of Reforge the Soul (for which the inclusion of Personal Tutor may be justifiable), I don't think it belongs in Legacy.

[SpikeyMikey]

I was at that SCG there was Green Sun's Zenith all over the place in Legacy and Standard. I played 1x in my Enchantress list that day as well. At the same time though GSZ is a rare and Mastery was a $35 mythic (is now ~$20 mythic).

I didn't play in the Standard. But the Legacy had 0 GSZ in the top 8 and only 5 in the top 16 (4 in a Zoo list, 1 in a Bant list). I didn't see a single one all day. I had considered adding it to my list, but I didn't feel it was worth spending the money on a card I wasn't sure about. Wish I had. As per usual for me, the wheels fell off when I was 1 win out of money. Started the day 5-1 and finished 5-4... :(

[Smmenen]

In terms of the skepticism regarding Temporal Mastery based upon tournament results so far: be patient.

Eternal players are slow adopters, and take their cue from previous results. Once Temporal Mastery and Thunderous Wrath start appearing in Top 8s, it will happen alot more frequently, and it will happen.

All of the Temporal Mastery skeptics will be proven wrong in time.

[Koby]

I am going to bookmark your post Stephen. It will be added the annals of "Epic Source Quotes" in 3 months.

Do you think within 3 months time (say, by M13 or even the fall set) would be enough time to show the card make a splash?

[DragoFireheart]

I am going to bookmark your post Stephen. It will be added the annals of "Epic Source Quotes" in 3 months.

Do you think within 3 months time (say, by M13 or even the fall set) would be enough time to show the card make a splash?

How long did it take for MMS to make an impact? 3 months? 5?

That same length of time should be sufficient to determine whether TM is good or not.

[Koby]

How long did it take for MMS to make an impact? 3 months? 5?

That same length of time should be sufficient to determine whether TM is good or not.

No more than 3 weeks.

Clicky the linky to GP Providence (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6208)

25 copies between 7 decks, only deck not playing it was Zoo.

Or even BOM 5, within 1 DAY. (15 copies in Top 8, 4 decks playing)

MM is a bad comparison.

[KobeBryan]

Would you guys call me a noob if i said i like temporal mastery as a 2 of in a blue controlish deck?

[xfxf]

I am going to bookmark your post Stephen. It will be added the annals of "Epic Source Quotes" in 3 months.

Do you think within 3 months time (say, by M13 or even the fall set) would be enough time to show the card make a splash?

This man has reason as always. Go win something big and start writing articles.

Edit: I took this comment as cynical but if not this guy doesn't know what he is talking about :D

[Aggro_zombies]

No more than 3 weeks.

Clicky the linky to GP Providence (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6208)

25 copies between 7 decks, only deck not playing it was Zoo.

Or even BOM 5, within 1 DAY. (15 copies in Top 8, 4 decks playing)

MM is a bad comparison.
It's not.

MM was hyped to the moon shortly after the entire set got leaked. People knew it was powerful and knew it would get played and most of the debate at the time was about how ubiquitous its presence would be, with a number of people arguing it would be played in almost every deck. That turned out to be wrong, but there were not very many people doubting its general playability before it became legal.

For all the hype, all the "I put together Deck X with Temporal Masteries and I'm wrecking face!" posts, and for all the "It has to be preemptively banned, it will ruin the format!" posts, the card has been awfully quiet so far. Whether that's because there are more preconditions on its successful use that need to be solved than there were for MM or because the card is not actually as good as people thought will play out over the next few months.

[Koby]

It's not.

MM was hyped to the moon shortly after the entire set got leaked. People knew it was powerful and knew it would get played and most of the debate at the time was about how ubiquitous its presence would be, with a number of people arguing it would be played in almost every deck. That turned out to be wrong, but there were not very many people doubting its general playability before it became legal.

For all the hype, all the "I put together Deck X with Temporal Masteries and I'm wrecking face!" posts, and for all the "It has to be preemptively banned, it will ruin the format!" posts, the card has been awfully quiet so far. Whether that's because there are more preconditions on its successful use that need to be solved than there were for MM or because the card is not actually as good as people thought will play out over the next few months.

It's exactly as you state - MM does not have dependency on requiring filtering. For this reason it was included in many non-blue decks. Furthermore, it does not require blue mana to cast, and thus has the opportunity to become ubiquitous (and did so easily). Mastery has strict pre-conditions, and also requires filtering to make good use. FWIW, I never stated either claim and merely attempting to point out that MM cannot be compared to TM in any reasonable faculty.

I still believe that hype surrounding TM is due to its game text (take an extra turn) rather than its ease of use. Compared to Time Reversal, it has a similar effect but prohibitive costs. MM does not share these costs.

[Aggro_zombies]

It's exactly as you state - MM does not have dependency on requiring filtering. For this reason it was included in many non-blue decks. Furthermore, it does not require blue mana to cast, and thus has the opportunity to become ubiquitous (and did so easily). Mastery has strict pre-conditions, and also requires filtering to make good use. FWIW, I never stated either claim and merely attempting to point out that MM cannot be compared to TM in any reasonable faculty.

I still believe that hype surrounding TM is due to its game text (take an extra turn) rather than its ease of use. Compared to Time Reversal, it has a similar effect but prohibitive costs. MM does not share these costs.
I thought you were talking about it in terms of hype and rate of adoption, not in terms of actual game play. But yes, you are correct, TM is contextually powerful whereas MM was more generally powerful.

[Lord Seth]

I was surprised to see just how quickly Mental Misstep became dominant. Besides the already-given examples, in the first Legacy Open (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2011-05-15&end_date=2011-05-15&event_ID=20) at SCG after New Phyrexia came out (two days after the set was released), it was in 7 of the top 8 decks. Has anything else taken over tournaments that quickly?

[Julian23]

Has anything else taken over tournaments that quickly?

Memory Jar. It took over tournaments before it became legal to play. Talk about Super-Haste!

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I was surprised to see just how quickly Mental Misstep became dominant. Besides the already-given examples, in the first Legacy Open (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2011-05-15&end_date=2011-05-15&event_ID=20) at SCG after New Phyrexia came out (two days after the set was released), it was in 7 of the top 8 decks. Has anything else taken over tournaments that quickly?

Flash? (Not immediately after its printing, obviously, but still.)

[lordofthepit]

How long did it take for MMS to make an impact? 3 months? 5?

That same length of time should be sufficient to determine whether TM is good or not.

Mental Misstep made a huge impact within days of printing, and it became the most dominant card in the format within weeks. There are probably examples of cards that took a while to realize their potential in Legacy, but Mental Misstep is the wrong one.

Flash quickly became dominant as soon as the power-level errata was removed. Hopefully, no one expects a similar trajectory for Temporal Mastery.

[DragoFireheart]

Hopefully, no one expects a similar trajectory for Temporal Mastery.

Oh no, I don't think TM is as degenerate as MM/Flash/Memory Jar. I think it's going to be harder to break but will still be broken in some way. Just because it didn't happen NOW doesn't mean it can't in the future. I'm predicting it'll be more like SotF: good at first, but after another card is found/printed, will push it over the top.

[lordofthepit]

Oh no, I don't think TM is as degenerate as MM/Flash/Memory Jar. I think it's going to be harder to break but will still be broken in some way. Just because it didn't happen NOW doesn't mean it can't in the future. I'm predicting it'll be more like SotF: good at first, but after another card is found/printed, will push it over the top.

It's possible that there are cards out there that will break Temporal Mastery. That's what Stephen is claiming, but so far, no one players who have taken Temporal Mastery to any tournaments have had any measurable success. (I haven't read his article, so I certainly can't speculate on whether he's right or wrong.) It's certainly possible that no one has really done the necessary experimentation and testing to take a deck to the tournament (to the extent that Stephen has). I'm not ruling that out as a possibility, although I find it unlikely (even more so with each passing tournament).

However, I don't think we're likely to see a new printing that will break Temporal Mastery. The difference between Temporal Mastery and Survival of the Fittest was the latter was a fundamentally broken enabler that got stronger with each creature printed (and obviously, Wizards has been ramping up the power level of new creatures). Eventually, Vengevine got printed, a few people tested it to achieve successful results, Caleb did really well at a high-profile event, and it just took off from there.

Temporal Mastery isn't the enabler. Brainstorm, Sensei's Divining Top, Mystical Tutor, etc. are the enablers. However, I find it exceedingly unlikely that Wizards will print better enablers than those cards. If anything, they've been banning these types of cards and ramping down the power level of new versions. I wouldn't count on anything new to put TM over the top. I think if it's going to be broken, it will be with the tools we currently have, and someone creative and persistent is going to have to come up with a decklist.

[dragonwisdom]

reforge the soul is the most powerful of the miracle cards, since 5 mana for 7 cards is not bad at all.

still vexing devil, cavern of souls, temporal mastery, thunderous wrath, griselbrand, entreat the angels and terminus etc.. will all be good. They might take some time to break, but they will break.

Post Urza block and perhaps mirridon, In legacy this is the most powerful set we have seen in a long time (IMO).

[hi-val]

Mental Misstep made a huge impact within days of printing, and it became the most dominant card in the format within weeks. There are probably examples of cards that took a while to realize their potential in Legacy, but Mental Misstep is the wrong one.

Flash quickly became dominant as soon as the power-level errata was removed. Hopefully, no one expects a similar trajectory for Temporal Mastery.

Mental Misstep was also so easy to find at prereleases that players could get it in the week before the events. Even preorders don't ship quickly. I'm going to add in the fact that a lot of people are simply waiting for release prices to come down and say you might not see people even picking up Mastery until the end of the month.

Simple physical supply can constrain a lot of this.

[evanmartyr]

I think it's kind of a fatuous comparison. Certainly Temporal Mastery has an immensely powerful effect for an absurdly low price (some of the time), but there are some very significant differences.

Without a more aggressive or evasive start than your opponent, it is an Explore. In control decks, as seen during the top 8 of GP whatever-the-hell-one-just-happened, it's an occasional blowout, but usually it's just a Time Warp + 2 mana.

Mental Misstep was a hate card aimed directly at the heart of Legacy. It had no color requirements, no support (in terms of deck construction) requirements, and no board requirements (it scaled in effectiveness based simply on the mana cost of opponents' spells, not your board position, so it's quality was determined before the game even started).

It was *very* easy to see that MMS would be ubiquitous. It would be stifling. It would slow the format down and give Control a huge advantage. It would prompt an arms race of decks playing 2, then 3, then 4 copies even when they couldn't support the "optional" mana cost, simply because there are TOO MANY TARGETS NOT TO. The only decks that didn't seriously consider playing it were things like Burn (where one spell that forces through 3 damage is much the same as the next spell that just does 3 damage) and hyper-focused combo where drawing it in their opening hand probably meant that they'd not be able to go off (Belcher).

Temporal Mastery is one of those cards that will get better as the card pool increases, it'll get better with testing and familiarity as people will figure out ideal numbers of library manipulators, and it'll get better as long as cheap, aggressive creatures with evasion get better. I'm not sure it's as amazing right now as Smennen was proclaiming, since the catch-22 of tempo decks is that you have a line of plays that go off in sequence in order to win the game. Temporal Mastery (when it works) makes it easier to leap ahead in that sequence, but it's also dependent on a lot of factors and waters down the rest of the deck with enablers. So instead of enabling your goal (cheap creature, removal and countermagic to win), you're enabling your enabler to hit your goal, which is just inherently less consistent.

[Lord Seth]

In control decks, as seen during the top 8 of GP whatever-the-hell-one-just-happened, it's an occasional blowout, but usually it's just a Time Warp + 2 mana.Are you referring to the Pro Tour? Because there haven't yet been a Grand Prix in which Avacyn Restored is legal.

Though the Pro Tour was Standard, so it being a 4-of in the champion's deck doesn't mean that much for Legacy...

[XcaliberZ]

Hell, it wasn't even standard, it was block constructed. That miracle deck might not port well until rotation.

[evanmartyr]

Yeah, the Block Constructed thing. This weekend. Whatever it was. Dude's deck was like "well, I'll play lands from my opening hand, and maybe do something relevant and then MIRACLE MIRACLE MIRACLE MIRACLE flashback Think Twice MIRACLE".

It was some kind of stupid, but I think that's more a critical mass of stupid rather than a particular card being stupid on it's own.

[Lord Seth]

Hell, it wasn't even standard, it was block constructed.You're right, my goof. I think I was mixing it up with either the previous Pro Tour (which was Standard) or the current Standard PTQs. This probably actually just makes my point stronger, though.

[Smmenen]

It was hard not to be impressed by what Alexander Hayne did. It reinforces my view about not only the viability of Miracles in both Legacy and Vintage, but that some of them are broken. It just sometimes takes Pro Tours for people to realize this. I hate to say it, but if there was a Legacy GP this weekend, you better believe that a host of Pros would be playing Miracle cards. That's my belief, anyway.

[Philipp2293]

Well, we have Bazaar of Moxen this weekend, which is pretty much the biggest non GP Legacy event. Let's see if some TMs appear.

[AndyTron]

The results from both the Bazaar of Moxen and the most recent SSG Open are in. Neither top 8 had a single copy of TM. Both had copies of Terminus (miracle) and Grizzlebrand (Mythic Rare) which suggests that the card availability and inherent limitations of the miracle mechanic excuses are just that. I seriously can't understand how people are still arguing that this card will be broken in Legacy.

[Pippin]

I seriously can't understand how people are still arguing that this card will be broken in Legacy.

Stubborn is as stubborn does.

:smile:

[xfxf]

I just want to remind that half the people didn't believe it was actually broken as well when they were defending it. They already cashed out and don't need to argue with anyone anymore. Pure hype up.

Half of the remaining half is just trying to keep up appereances. Only the remaining quarter is still trying to break the card but doing it without making a fuss about it.

[AndyTron]

Fair Enough.

Actually, when I said "people" I was mostly just referring to Steve. :wink:

[Smmenen]

The results from both the Bazaar of Moxen and the most recent SSG Open are in. Neither top 8 had a single copy of TM. Both had copies of Terminus (miracle) and Grizzlebrand (Mythic Rare) which suggests that the card availability and inherent limitations of the miracle mechanic excuses are just that. I seriously can't understand how people are still arguing that this card will be broken in Legacy.

Terminus is just beginning its ascent -- demonstrating that miracle cards are Eternal playable. It's going to be big in the long run (as long as B-storm is legal). I would urge further patience with T. Mastery.

Did you see Yurchick's article last week?

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10481

I think multiple Miracles are Legacy playable, including one's not even discussed much.

[Hanni]

The Miracle cards are strong and Legacy playable for sure. Each requiring the right deck or decks to get the most out of them, obviously. I don't like the way the term "broken" is being thrown around though, cause they're not. Really good, yes. Broken? Not so much.

[lordofthepit]

Terminus is just beginning its ascent -- demonstrating that miracle cards are Eternal playable. It's going to be big in the long run (as long as B-storm is legal). I would urge further patience with T. Mastery.

Did you see Yurchick's article last week?

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10481

I think multiple Miracles are Legacy playable, including one's not even discussed much.

I like Terminus much more than Temporal Mastery.

Wrath of God effects at 4 mana are infinitely more playable than Time Warp effects at 5 mana, so it isn't unreasonable to conclude Terminus has an advantage being one mana cheaper than Temporal Mastery (retail or miracle cost).

Moreover, both cards require some setup to reduce variance. By durdling around with cantrips and other setup spells, you lose a large chunk whatever tempo advantage you hoped to gain with Temporal Mastery, but on the other hand, a sweeper effect like Terminus completely resets the board (creatures anyway) regardless of what your opponent did in the previous turns while you were setting things up.

Moreover, in a properly constructed deck, Terminus has other advantages over TM:
- More useful in a position in which you're behind, while TM is better when you're already far ahead.
- Benefits more from being usable at instant speed.
- Fits better in a deck that wants to play a longer game, meaning more opportunities to set up Miracle or to draw it naturally.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Terminus replacing Wrath of God in decks designed to take advantage. I see more of a challenge for Temporal Mastery becoming accepted.

Stephen, when do you think Temporal Mastery will become the powerhouse you predict? In a few weeks, when card availability should completely cease to become a problem (if it hasn't been already)? In a month, when people finally unveil their creations at GP Atlanta? Longer, at which point you will break the card at some event? Or in the indefinite future, when some hypothetical ridiculous Miracle enabler is enough to put Temporal Mastery undeniably over the top?

[xfxf]

On a lazy Sunday afternoon, this song somehow reminded me of this thread :smile:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R6S5CJWlco

[DragoFireheart]

Looks like I was wrong. Oh well, it happens.

[menace13]

12th place list from SCGs Nash has 4 Temporal.

[xfxf]

And top 8 has 3 Sneak&Show decks (11 Griselbrands). What's your point?

[menace13]

And top 8 has 3 Sneak&Show decks. What's your point?

That this is probably the first time TM made a decent showing.

[Greenpoe]

12th place list from SCGs Nash has 4 Temporal.

He placed with zero counters main in a UW Stoneforge deck? A set of Force and Spell Pierce in the SB and a bunch of tiny creatures (1/2, 2/1, 3/1 and 2/2's)...and he ran Chrome Mox. Oh, and only one of those weak creatures has evasion (Clique). And he has only 4 removal spells to actually connect with those creatures.

[Hanni]

Temporal Mastery is rediculous. Any deck playing blue should run 4. The card is so overpowered broken that it will not survive the next B&R update. srsly

[Einherjer]

Temporal Mastery is rediculous. Any deck playing blue should run 4. The card is so overpowered broken that it will not survive the next B&R update. srsly

No,not 4, its so fucking broken we all should run 5!

[dahcmai]

It is still pretty damned amazing. Anyone who thinks it won't pop up eventually is dead wrong about it. It's very, very hard to get a deck to work it in and not be trying to rely on Brainstorms to make it work. It takes some tuning to not have it be a stepping stone. I'm still fighting with it in the obvious deck it should go in and it's awkward, but strong enough to easily make the cut. Doomsday does make really good use out of it though since that deck always did hate saying go after a Doomsday and can really abuse the crap out of an extra untap step.

I still expect some control decks to put it to use for that land drop. That's what most decks I've seen use it are wanting out of it. It's funny not many of them use it for the attack step.

[JeroenC]

How do you Temporal Mastery with DD? Usually, you've already drawn your first card after you cast DD. And casting it with a cantrip in their turn doesn't take away their turn, so it should be pretty win-more at that point.
And if you want to play 4 to get it with BS before you DD, you're doing a number of things wrong. You're stuffing 4 essentially dead cards into a deck that already struggles to stay down at 60. You're forcing your comboturn to cost 2 more mana before DD- and any storm you generate to get to that mana does not carry over to the actual comboturn. Also, you're removing the option to run one miser Ad Nauseam which can sometimes just allow you to explode into your opponent's face, ANT-style.

[Hopo]

How do you Temporal Mastery with DD?

I believe it would be for the situations where you have a Sensei's Divining Top out. Doomsday likes Top in any case. Still, I don't see it doing much to combo decks. I believe the potential lies in control decks or aggro-Brainstorm decks. And then there's also the possibility of Temporal Mastery just not being good enough to be staple material in legacy. I thought it would be something in UR delver or even Canadian thresh as a 1-of but so far no one has had any convincing results proving that.

[anwei]

He placed with zero counters main in a UW Stoneforge deck? A set of Force and Spell Pierce in the SB and a bunch of tiny creatures (1/2, 2/1, 3/1 and 2/2's)...and he ran Chrome Mox. Oh, and only one of those weak creatures has evasion (Clique). And he has only 4 removal spells to actually connect with those creatures.

It's the deck Drew Levin advocated in his article last week.

I don't like many things about it, but I think Chrome Mox might be a good call for getting value out of opening-hand miracles in a deck like that one, especially if getting value from fast dudes and extra attacks is the plan.

[GradStudentGuy]

I do not think Temporal Mastery has a role in legacy other than a doomsday deck. To get full value out of that card you need to be playing an aggro deck for the extra attack step. However, the card is something you want to set up to make the best use out of your extra turn. Most decks do not have room to fit in mastery and the setup cards required. The lack of counter magic in those list hint at that. It turns stone blade into a bad aggro deck that loses to combo. Maybe some sort of next level Thresh deck that runs top may get better use of that but then again your adding a lot of cards to your deck just to support time walk.

Those who say brainstorm and snap-caster are enough to support it I think are incorrect. You need some sort of constant filtering mechanism (top or library) to get the best use out of miracle cards. Otherwise, they are going to be clogging up your hand wasting brainstorms. It will give you the illusion that you are making the right move when in reality you are just trying to cast an otherwise dead card. Miracle cards are like stifle. When they are good, they are really good and when they are bad, you just wish they were not in your hand. Ironically, stifle counters the miracle trigger.

[menace13]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?start_date=2012-06-03&end_date=2012-06-03&event_ID=20

Top 8 has UW Miracle at 3rd place after swiss. Banishing Stroke, Temporal, Entreat, Terminus all in there. Miraculously, He ported over his Std deck that he won with.

[dahcmai]

I'm only using TM as a 2 of in DD. It is convenient to cast on the opponents turn most of the time since DD has a large amount of library manipulation. I've also been testing it out with Portent so I can stack the top, then draw it on the opponent's turn. It's actually fairly good. I might even use that trick in a couple of other decks to gain land drops. Portent isn't horrible anyway.

DD can use the land drop, but it's not a great use. Half the time, you don't care about that. It's way more useful for stacking up 2 turns to cast DD, then go into the next turn so you don't need a cantrip. It can be useful if you pull in the Shelldock win con also without using up a slot to Cloud of Faeries or something kind of useless outside of a combo.

I'd probably drop the number of TM to 1 if I had a better way to search it up. It's great as a one of, but comes in really handy for quick ways to go off. It's too bad Burning Wish does you no good to get a TM.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Okay so if you'll remember back several pages I had a Reforge the Souls deck I was working on. Been testing it and I feel like now it's proven good enough to release into the wild. Discussion can be found here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23935-Flames-Belcher

[Smmenen]

Third place deck: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46650

Temporal Mastery is appearing in Legacy Top 8s!

[Koby]

I'm not convinced. He wasn't playing four. How broken could it be if it isn't playing the max allotted?