Food Chain Combo

[grokh]

It's an interesting card to think about, but it seems that Mulldrifter is simply better in most cases... hm. The Gushability of returning and brainstorming away lands is fun, though.


A Mulldrifter will never allow you to :
- avoid a Wasteland on your duals
- draw in response to something

You can't have a Mulldrifter on board without Food chain, i just think it's dumb to pay :3: just to draw 2 cards and finally have nothing on my board. Fathom seer will cost you :3: too but stay on the board, able to defend, if he blocks a 2/2 creature you can morph it for him to become 1/3 and survive.

If no Food chain on board you'll use a Mulldrifter for trying to get a Food chain in your top 2 cards. You can use Fathom seer ability for plenty other situations i've just described, and if you do you still have a 1/3 for block !

A Mulldrifter is better in only one case : the case you got Food chain on board and you're comboing ftw. Otherwise, i always prefer having a 2/2 on the board and have drawn 2 cards rather than have nothing on board and have drawn 2 cards, don't you ?

Fathom seer has no Food chain-dependency, he's not a dead card without it

I don't think Fathom seer must replace Mulldrifter, he can't, he just can enter in our cantrip creatures package

[nevilshute]

I'm not sure what I would replace in order to put in Fathom Seer. I play six basics aswell and only 4 duals so I'm not overly fretting over Wastelands. Not that they can't mess me up something aweful. Flipping him during your opponents turn in order to emergency block seems disadvantageous as you can only use the islands you return for to cast instants and you will be behind with two land drops next turn.

Gush is a broken card but it's not a card that goes into to any deck and it isn't broken because you get to save your islands from Wastelands or even get one extra mana late in the game. It's broken when used as a combo piece and I can't see it fitting in to our particular combo engine. Therefor, a creature that is "Gush on a stick" seems like a stretch.

With that said, nothing really makes up for trial and error and I would love to hear how it plays Grokh :)

[grokh]

I'm not sure what I would replace in order to put in Fathom Seer. I play six basics aswell and only 4 duals so I'm not overly fretting over Wastelands. Not that they can't mess me up something aweful. Flipping him during your opponents turn in order to emergency block seems disadvantageous as you can only use the islands you return for to cast instants and you will be behind with two land drops next turn.

Gush is a broken card but it's not a card that goes into to any deck and it isn't broken because you get to save your islands from Wastelands or even get one extra mana late in the game. It's broken when used as a combo piece and I can't see it fitting in to our particular combo engine. Therefor, a creature that is "Gush on a stick" seems like a stretch.

With that said, nothing really makes up for trial and error and I would love to hear how it plays Grokh :)

You can use only instants but you can take :u: :u: in response to the ability, you can cast Spell pierce or Brainstorm in our decklists.

You'll be behind with 2 lands drops ? Not all the time, you got Birds of paradise and Noble hierarch in your list, they count as lands too.

And be aware you'll use it's ability in instant only if needed ! For example to counter a spell you really don't want to see, or protect a dual. If you use it for countering a counterspell on your Food chain and find a counterspell, you'll just have won !

[nevilshute]

So, yesterday I went to my local store's weekly legacy tournament to try and follow up on last weeks fantastic 5-1 result. There were only 22 players this week so we only played 5 rounds instead of 6. I'm happy to report that the Food Chain deck (as people in the store seem to have dubbed it) went 4-1.

Lessons learned: I had found space for 2 Vendilion Clique and they seemed awesome. Really happy with how they worked. Running 2 Carpet of Flowers in SB seems quite good (credit to Wildchild), especially against RUG delver.

Some people tend to not take our deck very seriously. They like to go on about how a 3-card combo deck can't continually perform. They are usually the same people that only ever go online to copy what ever deck is getting the most top-8s this month. I get where they're coming from, but I have had very good experiences lately with the decklist I'm running and I feel like one of the decks strenghts is that it can fall back on a decent non-combo strategy with exalted creatures that can't be Swords to Plowshares'd and now too with Vendilion Clique. Plus, Food Chain + any number of griffins = a very good board state for us so in that way it's almost a 2½-card combo :p I don't know, probably the critics are right that this deck will struggle to ever become mainstream but I love playing it.

The matches:

Vs. G/W Stoneforge deck (WON 2-0):
This was a little bit of a strange deck and didn't feel like a proper win tbh. His deck was without both duals and fetches and seemed very much like a budget deck that suffered from this. Went off quickly in both games.

Vs Shardless BUG (WON 2-1):
This was the same deck I had lost to 1-2 last week. And again it was a very close round. I won the first game going off in round 4 or 5 getting very nice top deck draws (Pondering into a Force of Will and a Food Chain while holding Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and a Misthollow Griffin with 4 mana on the board). Lost the second game after having mulled to 5. Won a very close third game without going off, but by having 3 griffins out against a very big goyf. Double Submerge got it for me in the end.

Vs UR delver (WON 2-1):
Combo'd off in game 1 no problem. Game 2 his clock was just too fast with guides and a lavamancer plus good counter magic securing him a win. Game 3 was closer than both previous games but I won in the end. This seems like a match up that really could go either way. Did not feel comfortable.

Vs Death & Taxes (LOST 1-2):
This, in general, is a tough match up due to a strong sideboard that can pack both Phyrexian Revoker and Ethersworn Canonist. This guy even ran Phyrexian Revoker in his mainboard. I felt really hard done by in game 1. I kept a hand with no counter magic. He won the coin toss. He goes: plains -> Mother of Runes and passes the turn. I go forest -> Noble Hierarch and pass the turn. He then goes, 2nd plains -> Phyrexian Revoker naming Food Chain... I was a little stunned. From my opening turn he would have had NO inclination what he was up against, but it is a small room and someone must have told him or he could have peaked over my shoulder during an earlier round. Hard to really feel like he did anything wrong, but still felt a little douchie. I lost that game and went on to win game 2 after he had mulled to 5. I went off during game 2. Game 3 I lost to him getting 2 Canonists on the board.

Vs RUG delver (WON 2-0):
This was a fun round. Especially because the guy (who is a really nice guy) was going on and on during game 2 about how embarrased he would be to lose to Food Chain!! In the end I won game 1 quickly by going off in round 4 or 5. Game 2 was a bit strange and he will be feeling hard done by. After 5 or 6 rounds he had 1 flipped delver on the board and was taking me down pretty quickly. I had a Food Chain on the board but no Griffin and no win card in hand. I passed the turn being at 10 or 11 life. He casts another Delver of Secrets and attacks. I, in turn, Submerge his flipped delver, ensuring that he won't flip the other on his next turn. Next turn he plays his 2nd Delver and swings for 1. For the next 5 or so turns he doesn't see a sorcery or instant. I see 3 lands and finally a Griffin. He was at 10 life and I had 2 hierarchs in play so my griffin could swing for 5. During his next 2 turns he continued to not see a sorcery or instant. Needless to say he wasn't very happy with his luck.

Decklist:

Creatures:
3x Misthollow Griffin
3x Noble Hierarch
2x Birds of Paradise
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Mulldrifter
2x Wall of Blossoms
2x Fierce Empath
1x Aethersnipe
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Griselbrand
1x Maga, traitor to Mortals

Enchantments:
4x Food Chain
2x Sylvan Library

Spells:
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
2x Spell Pierce
2x Manipulate Fate

Planeswalkers:
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Submerge
2x Carpet of Flowers
2x Pithing Needle
3x Moment's Peace
1x Krosan Grip
1x Xantid Swarm

[metamet]

Thanks for the writeup nevilshute! As I mentioned in my article, the hardest part of the deck seems to be convincing others it's actually viable. :) Fortunately, it's incredibly fun.

At GenCon's Legacy Champs (which I went 2-2-drop in, losing to consecutive T2 Show & Tells -> Omniscience, even when I had a Gris!, and a very good Maverick player), I sat next to someone who said "Oh! You're the Food Chain deck. Sweet." That made me feel pretty good, even if they found out about it through disgruntled murmurs of how bad it is... haha.

But it's really fun to play and can actually win games. It's the perfect level of fringe-pet.

Onto your deck. How do you like the Pierces main? I have been bouncing between them and Dazes and can't decide. Also -- what's up with the 3/2 split with Hierarch/Birds?

I still think you should drop the Maga. :) She feels really out of place... how many times did you use her? Maybe exchange for another Empath, Mulldrifter or Wall.

And congrats! I'll likely be playing Thursday and bringing it to the SCG Minneapolis event this weekend.

[nevilshute]

Thanks for the writeup nevilshute! As I mentioned in my article, the hardest part of the deck seems to be convincing others it's actually viable. :) Fortunately, it's incredibly fun.

At GenCon's Legacy Champs (which I went 2-2-drop in, losing to consecutive T2 Show & Tells -> Omniscience, even when I had a Gris!, and a very good Maverick player), I sat next to someone who said "Oh! You're the Food Chain deck. Sweet." That made me feel pretty good, even if they found out about it through disgruntled murmurs of how bad it is... haha.

But it's really fun to play and can actually win games. It's the perfect level of fringe-pet.

Onto your deck. How do you like the Pierces main? I have been bouncing between them and Dazes and can't decide. Also -- what's up with the 3/2 split with Hierarch/Birds?

I still think you should drop the Maga. :) She feels really out of place... how many times did you use her? Maybe exchange for another Empath, Mulldrifter or Wall.

And congrats! I'll likely be playing Thursday and bringing it to the SCG Minneapolis event this weekend.

Heya metamet. It's funny you should mention the Spell Pierces as they are the card in the deck I am least certain of. I prefer them to Daze though because a) running Daze I feel I need at least 3 to have a decent chance of getting one on my opening hand which is when you want them and b) because when testing with Daze I regularily found myself struggling by being set back a turn. With that said, I don't really feel the Spell Pierces fit in very well. I seldom feel like leaving 1 mana open during early turns due to mana dorks/Ponders. Not sure what to do to be honest. 4x Force of Will alone seems too little counter magic.

The 3/2 split between birds and hierarchs is simply due to me not owning the 4th hierarch. Once I get her, it will be 4/1.

Maga... meh... I think you're right. A third Empath might be the way to go. I will say this though: had Maga had CMC6< so that it was tutorable with empath it would be a guarenteed singleton alongside Emrakul.

Do you think this has a chance of becoming "a real deck" so to speak? :)

[Darkenslight]

Heya metamet. It's funny you should mention the Spell Pierces as they are the card in the deck I am least certain of. I prefer them to Daze though because a) running Daze I feel I need at least 3 to have a decent chance of getting one on my opening hand which is when you want them and b) because when testing with Daze I regularily found myself struggling by being set back a turn. With that said, I don't really feel the Spell Pierces fit in very well. I seldom feel like leaving 1 mana open during early turns due to mana dorks/Ponders. Not sure what to do to be honest. 4x Force of Will alone seems too little counter magic.

The 3/2 split between birds and hierarchs is simply due to me not owning the 4th hierarch. Once I get her, it will be 4/1.

Maga... meh... I think you're right. A third Empath might be the way to go. I will say this though: had Maga had CMC6< so that it was tutorable with empath it would be a guarenteed singleton alongside Emrakul.

Do you think this has a chance of becoming "a real deck" so to speak? :)

If you're struggling with the Pierces because you're facing creatures, then Daze is pretty much the only one that's relevant. If it's because you need to counter nonpermanent spells, then there's always Disrupt and Divert (the latter using the Misdirection trick).

[nevilshute]

If you're struggling with the Pierces because you're facing creatures, then Daze is pretty much the only one that's relevant. If it's because you need to counter nonpermanent spells, then there's always Disrupt and Divert (the latter using the Misdirection trick).

It's hard to really analyze though. Against Maverick that plays Pridemages and Thalia maindeck and can board in Canonist then Spell Pierce is really of no use, but Daze sucks there too for the most part because they can ramp into a lot of mana early on. Thought briefly about Spell Snare there but that seems to have just as many limitations in other match ups. Problem is, I don't feel like dedicating space in my SB for situational counter magic. I'm leaning towards either cutting counter spell 5 and 6 altogether or just sticking with pierces.

[metamet]

I think this is the list I am going to roll with next:

Creatures:
2x Misthollow Griffin
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Birds of Paradise
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Mulldrifter
2x Wall of Blossoms
3x Fierce Empath
1x Aethersnipe
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Griselbrand

Enchantments:
4x Food Chain
1x Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers:
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Spells:
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
3x Daze
3x Manipulate Fate


Sideboard:
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Submerge
2x Pithing Needle
3x Spell Pierce
2x Tarmogoyf
2x Carpet of Flowers
1x Krosan Grip

I realize that 3 Griffin vs 2 Griffin on board is a one turn clock difference, separated by a mere two points (likely mitigated by opponents' fetches):

6 vs 9
12 vs 18
18 vs 27
24 vs 36

Not sure if this is a good idea yet... I am going to go down to two Griffins and see how it goes, keeping the Manipulate Fates at 3. Might try 2 Fates and 3 Griffins, however.

[nevilshute]

I think this is the list I am going to roll with next:

Creatures:
2x Misthollow Griffin
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Birds of Paradise
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Mulldrifter
2x Wall of Blossoms
3x Fierce Empath
1x Aethersnipe
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Griselbrand

Enchantments:
4x Food Chain
1x Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers:
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Spells:
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
3x Daze
3x Manipulate Fate


Sideboard:
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Submerge
2x Pithing Needle
3x Spell Pierce
2x Tarmogoyf
2x Carpet of Flowers
1x Krosan Grip

I realize that 3 Griffin vs 2 Griffin on board is a one turn clock difference, separated by a mere two points (likely mitigated by opponents' fetches):

6 vs 9
12 vs 18
18 vs 27
24 vs 36

Not sure if this is a good idea yet... I am going to go down to two Griffins and see how it goes, keeping the Manipulate Fates at 3. Might try 2 Fates and 3 Griffins, however.

Will be very interested to hear how you do with 2x Griffin. I've had good experiences running a list very similar to yours but always with 2x fate 3x griffin. I'd be very hesitant to cut it down to 2 griffins myself, but like I said, looking forward to hearing how you do :)

[metamet]

Me: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_food_chain_with_tyle.html

[nevilshute]

Me: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_food_chain_with_tyle.html

That's awesome! How did you do at the tournament?

I've been trying to convince people that this is an actual deck but people refuse to believe it even after I've finished top-4 twice in a row at 30-man tournaments.

I heard you mention Qasali Pridemage as your main problem vs Maverick. And while it obviously is troublesome, how do you handle them siding in Ethersworn Canonists? That card kinda screws us over. It's even worse against Death & Taxes as they sometimes run them in their maindeck and can also side in Revokers.

[grokh]

Hi,

I just played the deck at a tournament with this list :


//Lands
2 Island
2 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Tropical Island
2 Ancient Tomb

//Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
3 Misthollow Griffin
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Mulldrifter
2 Raven Familiar
2 Fierce Empath
2 Vendilion Clique
1 AEthersnipe
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Griselbrand

//Combo
4 Food Chain

//Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

//Sorceries
2 Manipulate Fate

//Tutorization
2 Sylvan Library
2 Ancestral Knowledge

Sideboard

1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Shriekmaw
1 Gilded Drake
3 Spell Pierce
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
3 Moment's Peace


I finished 18th on 47 at 3-3
Won against Sneak Show, Tempo thresh, Hive mind.
Lost against Goblins, Bant and tempo thresh.

I badly missplayed against Goblins, i had a Forest on board + 1 Bird + 1 Hierarch.
I played my Food chain with Forest + Birds + Hierarch then tried to combo by playing a Mulldrifter (exiling Hierarch + Birds for :u: :u: :u: :u:), i saw only 2 non-creatures cards and fizzled ...
And like a dumb i had 2 Moment's peace in hand i could have played instead of this bad play :cry:

I really dislike Wall of blossoms, he's 0/4, can't attack, doesn't fly etc ...
That's why i think i'm gonna replace it by Baleful strix for the following resaons :
- he's 1/1 Flying Deathtouch, he can attack, flies and will crush a blocker
- he's blue, can pitch on Force of will/Misdirection if needed
- he's artifact, he can be a real threat for your opponent if exalted, so he'll maybe need targetting it with Qasali pridemage, letting you put a Food chain safely for the win !

I think the :b: mana won't be a big problem, as i pack 4 Birds of paradise, and Food chain can produce :b: mana too for the Strix. Maybe adding an Underground sea ?

I have fizzled sometimes by going in combo and drawing lands, non-creature cards and couldn't go on and win.
So i think i need to free some slots for putting in some creatures but i dunno where i can free slots. I think i can cut in Sylvan library/Ancestral knowledge but dunno how much i have to run ...

[metamet]

Hey guys,

It's been a busy week! Been moving and unpacking. A bunch of fun. :)

I ended 2-3 at the event. The rounds went like this:

Round 1: Nic Fit, won it in two games.

Round 2: UW Miracles, went to game three. He got game one off of a blind EE for 3 the turn before I would have gone off after I get greedy playing into a Pierce. I get game two. Game three we play top deck and he counters the Manipulate Fate I needed to win. I had to play around a pierce the entire game, which set me back.

Round 3: Feature match against RUG Delver. I win G1 with a T4 combo (I think?). He gets G2 after I keep a lackluster hand. I get G3 with Griffins in the air.

Round 4: RUG Delver. G1 he goes T1 Delver, flip. G2 he goes T1 Delver, flip. I lose.

Round 4: I play against a deck that goes T1 Mom, T2 Thalia. I end up winning on T3/T4. I side in Submerges. G2 I keep a 2 Submerge opener, turns out he is playing mono White... ugh. G3 he goes Jitte -> Crusader -> Armageddon. The turn before the Armageddon I could've won, as I EOT'd a Clique and had a Food Chain in hand that would've won me the game. Shucks.

So then I dropped and played cube. :)

Overall, the deck was a lot of fun. Beating a T1 flipped Delver is damn hard when he has counter backup.

I should have mulled with a 2 Submerge opener, but I felt that was good against Maverick and their hate bears. I suppose there's some merit to not winning in the first few turns. :P

A card I've been thinking about is Massacre Wurm. It solves our Hate Bears problem and can slow down Delver quite a bit. We can Empath for it, but it seems like it's only castable if we have a bunch of Birds of a Food Chain. This might be enough reason to start testing black as a third color...

What does black offer us for MD?

[metamet]

Also: Elesh Norn may be another answer, although a tad more expensive.

What does white have to offer? Enlightened Tutor seems real.

We could always side into the Omniscience combo. :)

[grokh]

Hey guys,
A card I've been thinking about is Massacre Wurm. It solves our Hate Bears problem and can slow down Delver quite a bit. We can Empath for it, but it seems like it's only castable if we have a bunch of Birds of a Food Chain. This might be enough reason to start testing black as a third color...

What does black offer us for MD?

Black offers you Baleful strix who is a very good body against all hate-bears due to Flying + Deathtouch. I just said why Strix is so GOOD in my previous post !
It can offer Spoils of the vault to tutor Food chain,combo with Misthollow griffin by the way ...

[metamet]

Hmmm. My one hesitation with Spoils is RFGing our Emrakul. :X

I tried Strix for a bit. I like it, but it's a bit mana intensive. I am leaning on white, since we have Hierarchs.

So far Enlightened Tutor is the other main reason to go white.

[millerd33]

metamet... What would you cut to fit the E. Tutors in?

[nevilshute]

Having tried, extensively, to splash white for Enlightened Tutor I finally reached the conclusion that it wasn't worth it.

Having the tutors definitely adds something to the deck, but the sacrifices made in regards to the mana (cutting 2 basics in favor of a Savannah and a Tundra) became painfully decisive at times. Getting back to just playing UG just feels so much smoother. That said I won't jump to any conclusions. Splashing white might still be a good call. As long as my deck (UG) keeps performing at the level it has been recently I won't consider it.

Splashing black on the other hand just seems like a bad idea to me. Splashing black would, effectively mean cutting Noble Hierarchs for Birds of Paradise. This would be a massive loss IMO. Having 4x exalted means you have a viable beatdown path to victory. This has made up for MANY wins for me. And, Baleful Strix aside what are the real reasons for splashing black? Spoils of the Vault seems too arbitrary in regards to how much life we can stand to lose and, as metamet pointed out, exiling Emrakuls is a bad idea. No, the only place where splashing black really stands to benefit our setup enough to warrant its inclusion, is from hand reveal/disruption like Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek etc. It's always nice to see your opponents' hands before going off and what black offers here is certainly better than the 'poor-man's options' we have in blue with Vendilion Cliques and Gitaxian Probes. Other than that, black has better creature removal but I'm happy to live without it. If Noble Hierarchs could produce black mana I would be very interested to try it out, but as it stands I'm very sceptical.

I won't be playing the deck for another week, but will then take it to another 35-45 person legacy tournament. Will post results and experiences :)

[metamet]

I found the video of the round I was on camera: http://blip.tv/scglive/scg-min-legacy-rd-3-tyler-tyssedal-vs-lenny-thao-6336418

[nevilshute]

I found the video of the round I was on camera: http://blip.tv/scglive/scg-min-legacy-rd-3-tyler-tyssedal-vs-lenny-thao-6336418

I watched it earlier today mate. Was awesome to see the deck in action and winning no less :)

Are you going to continue bringing it to tournaments, you think?

Also, how are you liking your SB? I heard the commentators mention the goyfs. I ask because it's quite different from my SB strategy which is less focused on improving a beatdown plan than it is about strengthening or defending the combo plan with stuff like Moment's Peace.

[metamet]

Thank you! I did notice a handful of things I would've done differently, such as countering that second goyf in game three. I did that because that second Daze was going to be pretty useless after turn three, and I didn't see him tapping out anytime soon.

They didn't like the Goyfs, but I have found them to be relatively stellar in the RUG matchup. They block and kill Mongeese, and I find myself really wanting to stabilize against RUG rather than push the combo through. But I could see an alternative approach being helpful. I bring out the cute stuff (Snipe into Gris) against RUG to make room for the removal, counterspells and the Goyfs.

Not to mention that the Goyfs turn into mana when I'm ready to combo off. I usually find that I need bodies already on the field to make the combo worth it, and the goyfs help with that where other spells wouldn't.

I spoke with Ryan Overturf about using the Goyfs and he thinks they're a fine strategy. He's a pretty solid RUG pilot, and the RUG mirror often comes down to a Goyf staring contest.

But I'm always open to other ideas. :)

Not sure about the other color splash yet... I feel like we need a board wipe against weenie hate bears, but I only see the BBB wurm and Elesh Norn as being viable answers. Hrm.

And I'll still be piloting this deck for a while. :) Definitely a pet of mine!

[nevilshute]

Thank you! I did notice a handful of things I would've done differently, such as countering that second goyf in game three. I did that because that second Daze was going to be pretty useless after turn three, and I didn't see him tapping out anytime soon.

They didn't like the Goyfs, but I have found them to be relatively stellar in the RUG matchup. They block and kill Mongeese, and I find myself really wanting to stabilize against RUG rather than push the combo through. But I could see an alternative approach being helpful. I bring out the cute stuff (Snipe into Gris) against RUG to make room for the removal, counterspells and the Goyfs.

Not to mention that the Goyfs turn into mana when I'm ready to combo off. I usually find that I need bodies already on the field to make the combo worth it, and the goyfs help with that where other spells wouldn't.

I spoke with Ryan Overturf about using the Goyfs and he thinks they're a fine strategy. He's a pretty solid RUG pilot, and the RUG mirror often comes down to a Goyf staring contest.

But I'm always open to other ideas. :)

Not sure about the other color splash yet... I feel like we need a board wipe against weenie hate bears, but I only see the BBB wurm and Elesh Norn as being viable answers. Hrm.

And I'll still be piloting this deck for a while. :) Definitely a pet of mine!

I thought they were a little too hard on you for playing that second Daze. I can see what they mean, but in the actual situation I probably would have done the same. A) you fear your Daze will end up just sitting in your hand to no use once he has more mana, and B) you get to counter his second, straight creature drop.

I've struggled immensely trying to devise a board sweeping plan, particularly, vs Maverick and Death&Taxes. I even ran an Elesh Norn in my sideboard for a while, when I was splashing white for E. Tutors anyway. It seemed clumsy and heavy handed to say the least. For a while I contemplated running 1 U.Sea and then 2x Massacre in the sideboard, but I think have my doubts as to how it will work. My best plan of action still seems to be Moment's Peace.

Splashing black allowing for Massacre is, come to think of it, quite a strong argument for running a third color. On that note I have a question about Baleful Strix: I run 2x 2cmc catrip creatures in 2x Wall of Blossoms. When I was splashing white I tried replacing them with 2x Coiling Oracle. Not even taking into account which card, once played, was best I struggled with the oracle being multi colored. It made it impossible to go turn 2: tap out for FC sacrifice Noble Hierarch cast oracle, sac oracle cast cmc3 creature. It's the same with the Strix which makes me think I wouldn't play it, even if I did splash black. Would you care to give me some insight into your experiences with Baleful Strix?

Black has a lot to offer, of course, with cards like Thoughtseize, but I will climb back up my usual tree here and argue that our mana base can't sustain it properly without replacing hierarchs with mana birds, something I really don't want to do.

It's great to hear that you're going to continue to pilot it. I would LOVE to see some more commentary matches :) Living where I do (Copenhagen, Denmark), I rarely get the chance to go to big tournaments so for the most part I only play in my local store's weekly legacy tournament. I go every week but for the sake of variety I have constructed another deck (Know & Tell) that I plan to bring on alternate weeks. The Food Chain deck is still my favorite though and I almost feel like I'm becoming somewhat of a cult-person at the store for being the only guy playing this weird deck. I even had some people cheering for me when, after about 4 weeks of poor-to-mediocre results, I started doing some business, finishing in the prizes in consecutive weeks :)

[grokh]

I thought they were a little too hard on you for playing that second Daze. I can see what they mean, but in the actual situation I probably would have done the same. A) you fear your Daze will end up just sitting in your hand to no use once he has more mana, and B) you get to counter his second, straight creature drop.

I've struggled immensely trying to devise a board sweeping plan, particularly, vs Maverick and Death&Taxes. I even ran an Elesh Norn in my sideboard for a while, when I was splashing white for E. Tutors anyway. It seemed clumsy and heavy handed to say the least. For a while I contemplated running 1 U.Sea and then 2x Massacre in the sideboard, but I think have my doubts as to how it will work. My best plan of action still seems to be Moment's Peace.

Splashing black allowing for Massacre is, come to think of it, quite a strong argument for running a third color. On that note I have a question about Baleful Strix: I run 2x 2cmc catrip creatures in 2x Wall of Blossoms. When I was splashing white I tried replacing them with 2x Coiling Oracle. Not even taking into account which card, once played, was best I struggled with the oracle being multi colored. It made it impossible to go turn 2: tap out for FC sacrifice Noble Hierarch cast oracle, sac oracle cast cmc3 creature. It's the same with the Strix which makes me think I wouldn't play it, even if I did splash black. Would you care to give me some insight into your experiences with Baleful Strix?

Black has a lot to offer, of course, with cards like Thoughtseize, but I will climb back up my usual tree here and argue that our mana base can't sustain it properly without replacing hierarchs with mana birds, something I really don't want to do.

It's great to hear that you're going to continue to pilot it. I would LOVE to see some more commentary matches :) Living where I do (Copenhagen, Denmark), I rarely get the chance to go to big tournaments so for the most part I only play in my local store's weekly legacy tournament. I go every week but for the sake of variety I have constructed another deck (Know & Tell) that I plan to bring on alternate weeks. The Food Chain deck is still my favorite though and I almost feel like I'm becoming somewhat of a cult-person at the store for being the only guy playing this weird deck. I even had some people cheering for me when, after about 4 weeks of poor-to-mediocre results, I started doing some business, finishing in the prizes in consecutive weeks :)

Hi,

About Baleful strix.
Wall of blossom can't attack and that was the main problem for me ... I tried replace him by Coiling oracle too, it's sure better than Wall of blossoms because it's 1/1, he can attack but he can't block as well as a Wall of blossoms and it's multi colored.
And, they printed Baleful strix, he's stil 1/1 like Coiling oracle but he flies and he got Deathtouch so he can block as well if needed.
The only problem is that he's multicolored too.

But Baleful strix helps a lot against Delver.decks, when you got a 3/2 Fly on the board attacking each turn, the clock is real hard. And without Baleful strix, you can have access only to Mulldrifter who will never block cos you play it for its evoke cost or Raven familiar who will block but die without killing the Delver, the problem won't be solved though.
With a Baleful strix, you block Delver and you kill him too -> problem solved

For running Baleful strix, i got 4 Birds of paradise.

But i think if they print a mono-colored :g: or :u: creature which makes draw 1 for :2: manas, better than Wall of roots, i'll reconsider my choice

I think Moment's peace seems really better than Massacre or any other Wrath of god-like because it can be used 2 times, even if your opponent counters it, you can use it on next turn (or in the same turn if you got mana).

@Metamet
Hi Tyler,

I just saw the video of your match on SCG Minneapolis, you're just awesome man !
Just a question, is Wall of roots sometimes no good ?
I especially think to the fact that it's ability can produce only :g:
Why not run some Birds of paradise instead ?

And can you explain your SB plans please ?

Another question, they just spoiled this :
Bellmusic Sphinx
:4::u::u:
Creature - Sphinx
Flying
Discard 2 non-land cards of the same name: draw 4 cards
"Isperia. I have dreamt of the future. Danger is approaching. Heed my warning."
5/6

http://nsa30.casimages.com/img/2012/09/11/120911101301139994.jpg

Could it fit in our deck ?

Thx man

[nevilshute]

Hi,

About Baleful strix.
Wall of blossom can't attack and that was the main problem for me ... I tried replace him by Coiling oracle too, it's sure better than Wall of blossoms because it's 1/1, he can attack but he can't block as well as a Wall of blossoms and it's multi colored.
And, they printed Baleful strix, he's stil 1/1 like Coiling oracle but he flies and he got Deathtouch so he can block as well if needed.
The only problem is that he's multicolored too.

But Baleful strix helps a lot against Delver.decks, when you got a 3/2 Fly on the board attacking each turn, the clock is real hard. And without Baleful strix, you can have access only to Mulldrifter who will never block cos you play it for its evoke cost or Raven familiar who will block but die without killing the Delver, the problem won't be solved though.
With a Baleful strix, you block Delver and you kill him too -> problem solved

For running Baleful strix, i got 4 Birds of paradise.

But i think if they print a mono-colored :g: or :u: creature which makes draw 1 for :2: manas, better than Wall of roots, i'll reconsider my choice

I think Moment's peace seems really better than Massacre or any other Wrath of god-like because it can be used 2 times, even if your opponent counters it, you can use it on next turn (or in the same turn if you got mana).

@Metamet
Hi Tyler,

I just saw the video of your match on SCG Minneapolis, you're just awesome man !
Just a question, is Wall of roots sometimes no good ?
I especially think to the fact that it's ability can produce only :g:
Why not run some Birds of paradise instead ?

And can you explain your SB plans please ?

Thx man

Heya Grokh :)

Well there is always Elvish Visionary if you're looking for a cantrip creature that can attack too. It's not flying though and pretty unspectacular at 1/1 vanilla once in play.

I can totally see how Baleful Strix is nice when you're facing a flipped delver. Still, though, Wall of Blossoms blocks Nimble Mongoose both pre- and post threshold and can block Tarmogoyf. I don't know, I always felt like the 2cmc cantrip creature was one of those necessary evils in the deck and I've settled on WoB being the least frustrating one having tried both Coiling Oracle and Wall of Roots.

Just a question Grokh: have you tried replacing your Birds of Paradise with Noble Hierarchs?

Edit: I'm struggling to see how that new card would fit in unless I'm missing something blatant? We aren't a deck that particularly often sits with multiple copies of the same card in hand and I don't see a non-food chain way of getting it into play?

[grokh]

Heya Grokh :)

Well there is always Elvish Visionary if you're looking for a cantrip creature that can attack too. It's not flying though and pretty unspectacular at 1/1 vanilla once in play.

I can totally see how Baleful Strix is nice when you're facing a flipped delver. Still, though, Wall of Blossoms blocks Nimble Mongoose both pre- and post threshold and can block Tarmogoyf. I don't know, I always felt like the 2cmc cantrip creature was one of those necessary evils in the deck and I've settled on WoB being the least frustrating one having tried both Coiling Oracle and Wall of Roots.

Just a question Grokh: have you tried replacing your Birds of Paradise with Noble Hierarchs?

Edit: I'm struggling to see how that new card would fit in unless I'm missing something blatant? We aren't a deck that particularly often sits with multiple copies of the same card in hand and I don't see a non-food chain way of getting it into play?

Hi,

I actually run 4 Birds of paradise + 2 Noble hierarch (I have only 2 ...) and i've never missed the exaltation ability.

Case 1 : Kill in one turn with Emrakul, no need exaltation
Case 2 : Kill with Griffins, they are 3/3 fly, if i have 2 Griffins in play for example, i prefer attack for 6 rather than attack with one for 4 and keeping the other one in defense. In this case you never need defense, you just recast Griffins in second main phase.

Exaltation is good only
- on a flyer because our creatures are pretty weak, raven is 1/2, mulldrifter is 2/2 and empath is 1/1.
- and your flyer needs to beat your opponent 2 or 3 times if you're in this case, he needs to survive so exaltation should be good only on the griffin but i justified in the case 2 why it can be useless.

Here i come back on the strix, the exaltation could be very good on a Strix because he got Deathtouch, and attacking with a 3/3 or 4/4 Deathtouch flyer seems pretty sexy. Problem, the Noble hierarch can't give us :b: mana for Strix.

So i dunno, i could split for 4 Noble hierarch + 2 Birds of paradise but i would be afraid never having my :b: mana ...

For summarize :
Exaltation + Baleful strix = :cool: but maybe problems for finding :b: mana
Exaltation without Baleful strix = :eyebrow:

Dunno :confused:

For the new sphinx, i thought in cases you'll have 2 Food chain in hand during the combo for example.

But i think this new sphinx could maybe fit well with Eternal witness in the deck :
Ex : Discard 2 Mulldrifter, draw 4 then Eternal witness in play, 1 Mulldrifter back in hand then when you find another Eternal witness you get your second Mulldrifter.
Some plays like that ... No ?

[grokh]

After some tests, it appears than running with :
2 Birds of paradise
4 Noble hierarch
2 Baleful strix
1 Bayou

Works really fine !!!

[nevilshute]

Hey guys,

I just had a thought that I'd like to try out, but also get your opinion on (a little inspired by Grokh's suggestion):

Put 1x Consecrated Sphinx into the deck.

It gives us another Empath target and can be played on turn 3 (with a Food Chain played the turn before) with 3 lands and a mana dork in play and an Empath in hand. I don't know, maybe in that situation it is better to just wait a turn and cast Griselbrand, but I like how we can hard cast the Sphinx in longer games too. At 4/6 flying it's also nothing to scoff at.

It might be one of those ideas that looks better in my mind than once carried out, but I think I'm going to give it a try :) What do you think? Way out there? Or potentially something?

[grokh]

Hey guys,

I just had a thought that I'd like to try out, but also get your opinion on (a little inspired by Grokh's suggestion):

Put 1x Consecrated Sphinx into the deck.

It gives us another Empath target and can be played on turn 3 (with a Food Chain played the turn before) with 3 lands and a mana dork in play and an Empath in hand. I don't know, maybe in that situation it is better to just wait a turn and cast Griselbrand, but I like how we can hard cast the Sphinx in longer games too. At 4/6 flying it's also nothing to scoff at.

It might be one of those ideas that looks better in my mind than once carried out, but I think I'm going to give it a try :) What do you think? Way out there? Or potentially something?

3 Situations :
- you topdeck it, you'll need 6 manas to cast it
- you put Fierce empath into play, if you search for a Consecrated sphinx, it means you got minimum 2 manas left (2 manas + 4 manas by exiling the empath). If you got just 2 manas left, ok why not !
- you put Fierce empath into play, if you got 3 manas left, why not searching for AEthersnipe then bouncing Empath, Empath is back,searching for Griselbrand. Then exiling AEthersnipe for 7 manas + Empath for 4 manas, casting Griselbrand and draw 7 or 14 if you can

[nevilshute]

3 Situations :
- you topdeck it, you'll need 6 manas to cast it
- you put Fierce empath into play, if you search for a Consecrated sphinx, it means you got minimum 2 manas left (2 manas + 4 manas by exiling the empath). If you got just 2 manas left, ok why not !
- you put Fierce empath into play, if you got 3 manas left, why not searching for AEthersnipe then bouncing Empath, Empath is back,searching for Griselbrand. Then exiling AEthersnipe for 7 manas + Empath for 4 manas, casting Griselbrand and draw 7 or 14 if you can

Good points. To answer them:

-I top deck it (I assume you mean on my opening hand)... yes, that's not an ideal situation but the same could be said for Griselbrand or even Aethersnipe. At the same time, it doesn't have to be terrible. If we can drop a mana dork on turn 1 and a Food Chain on turn 2 then we're not that far away from just dropping this bad boy from our hand on turn 3 (with a Wall of Blossoms or a Mulldrifter).
-Sometimes that 1 extra mana is what decides the game. It means doing it 1 turn earlier. It also only removes 1 Fierce Empath and not an Aethersnipe as well.
-This is a good point and is of course connected to the point above. For the most part we'd always take a Griselbrand if we had the mana available. Exception would be if were at too little life to utalize his card draw ability. At the same time, however, if we have low life then his lifelink is great for us most of the time. This might just be the deciding factor and I'm prepared to aknowledge that, but I'd like to try it out anyway :)

One other slight plus for the Sphinx is that it pitches to Force of Will.

[metamet]

Seems like an interesting sideboard card against the likes of UW Miracles.

I will admit that I have Empathed for an AEthersnipe before so that I could pitch it to FOW when I needed to resolve my Food Chain. Sphinx being good for that is a plus. I'd say test it out and see if it's worth it, as I think you'd have a leg up against the grindier decks if you can build up card advantage... just don't let them miracle it to the bottom. -_-

I'm becoming reinterested in testing Living Wish again... but it seems slow, makes us susceptible to Snare and doesn't actually deal with any problems the deck consistently has. Hrm.

What we need is a good enchantment tutor to line out our current setup. Intuition in G1 (when there isn't GY hate) might be our best bet...

RE Wall of Roots: I tested Blossoms and was underwhelmed. Wall of Roots just feels more natural for me, and I always make use of the mana, especially when I need to bounce into my Food Chain or play around Daze. I found it more valuable than the cantrip of Blossoms.

[grokh]

Seems like an interesting sideboard card against the likes of
What we need is a good enchantment tutor to line out our current setup. Intuition in G1 (when there isn't GY hate) might be our best bet...


I'm running with 2 Ancestral knowledge for a while and it helps a lot finding our Food chain, it's very rare than your Food chain isn't in your top 10 cards and if it isn't you can exile lands from the top 10 cards for digging more ...

[millerd33]

Has anyone thought about playing some sort or Intuition/Living wish version?

Intuition can replace Manipulate Fate in the main deck not only fetching griffins but the foodchain as well. With living wish you can restart late game stalls if they counter your griffin's by getting ooze out of the board and removing the griffen's in yard from the game.

Wish also lets you play less copies of some of the creatures to open more room for protection.

Was thinking about picking this deck up and it looks like a lot of fun. What do you think about this as a possible way to go with the deck?

[nevilshute]

Has anyone thought about playing some sort or Intuition/Living wish version?

Intuition can replace Manipulate Fate in the main deck not only fetching griffins but the foodchain as well. With living wish you can restart late game stalls if they counter your griffin's by getting ooze out of the board and removing the griffen's in yard from the game.

Wish also lets you play less copies of some of the creatures to open more room for protection.

Was thinking about picking this deck up and it looks like a lot of fun. What do you think about this as a possible way to go with the deck?

I'd be extremely hesitant about dropping MF. I'll go so far as to say it is an absolute key card. Intuition would 9/10 times be used for Food Chain although we can also go get Emrakul and 2x Fierce Empath if we have the rest of our combo set up. My worry with Intuition is that it makes us very vulnurable if we aren't holding at least one counter card. If we intuition for 3x FC and they then either counter the one we try to cast or even worse cast a Surgical Extraction.

If I had any Intuitions lying around I'd be up for testing but I don't hehe.

[metamet]

I wouldn't cut Manipulate Fate, as the card far outperforms LW/Intuition as stand alone enablers.

As I mentioned in my last post, testing those two cards is something I'm interested in. I've always been a fan of Ooze as a way of reenabling our Griffins and having access to that maindeck would be nice.

My current list (from here: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_food_chain_with_tyle.html)

Maindeck:

Creatures
1 AEthersnipe
3 Fierce Empath
3 Misthollow Griffin
2 Mulldrifter
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Wall of Roots

Enchantments
4 Food Chain
1 Sylvan Library

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

Legendary Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Griselbrand
2 Vendilion Clique


Planeswalkers
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries
3 Manipulate Fate
3 Ponder

Basic Lands
2 Forest
2 Island

Lands
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:

2 Pithing Needle
2 Gilded Drake
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction


What and where and why to cut, though...

[nevilshute]

@metamet:

I was recently going over my sideboard and I started to wonder why I really needed my 2x Pithing Needles. I've reached the conclusion that what really hurts me are two cards in particular cards and another card on occasion:


Ethersworn Canonist
Phyrexian Revoker
Llawan, Cephalid Empress


Needle helps against none of them. Then I started thinking, what do I normally want to name with needle? Cards like Liliana of the Veil, Pernicious Deed and Aether Vial. While these cards can all be quite the nuisance they don't destroy us like the others I mentioned. I'm, of course, not saying it has to be one way or the other, but I have a hard time finding space for stuff. While there are obviously other good options to name (such as man-lands, Karakas and Mangara of Corondor but I ended up pulling out the needles.

My question to you is: Do you often side in Pithing Needles? And also, when you do, how often do you feel like they make a difference? :)

My SB:

2x Surgical Extraction
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Moment's Peace
2x Carpet of Flowers
2x Krosan Grip
2x Submerge
1x Gilded Drake
1x Wipe Away
1x Hurkyl's Recall

[metamet]

Hitting a Pridemage is one of the best things the Needle can get. I do, however, see your point regarding the other problem cards.

I tried the Carpet of Flowers and wasn't too crazy about it. I felt like I wanted to be doing other things against RUG Delver, but maybe that's not what it's there for. What do you usually bring it in against?

I'm also not yet convinced of Moment's Peace. While it's a two turn fog, it's a mana hog and doesn't seem like it can allow you to push ahead. Can you elaborate on how you've been using it?

[grokh]

Hi all,

Metamet, i agree with you, i definitely adopted my 3rd Fierce empath, it's more stable.

You're right, Qasali pridemage is a real threat for us, and the worth being it can be tutored with Green sun's zenith, so just for this reason, Pithing needle is needed.

I also use Pithing needle against S&T naming Sneak attack too !

@nevilshute
For other threats you mentionned : Ethersworn canonist and Phyrexian revoker, i'll underline 2 points :
1) Phyrexian revoker is never played in the SB tables, because Pithing needle has the same effect (players don't know a lot of dangerous activated mana abilities) and it's more safe because it's non-creature. The Phyrexian revoker can be out with a simple Swords to plowshare
2) If your opponent has an Ethersworn canonist on the board, if you cast a anti-creature/anti-artifact on it, he'll sure :
a) protect it with Mother of runes in response, your spell will fizzle
b) play a counterspell, as you're under canonist's effect, you can't respond, your spell is countered.
So, the only good solution is Krosan grip, he can't respond and there's no more Ethersworn canonist on the board !

I have to underline one very important point, i think you should replace your Daze/Spell pierce by some Misdirection
Why ?

Because Return to Ravnica has revealed Abrupt decay and it'll sure be played in Legacy. I may theorize it'll be play main deck in decks with the appropriate colors, because it can destroy lots lots of things in the format .
Our Food chain cost :3: so if targetted by an Abrupt decay, your counterspell will become dead cards and you'll just lose games dumbly.
With Misdirection, you can retarget the spell on one of his permanents (or one of yours non Food chain !) and if he counter the Misdirection you can counter his counterspell

[nevilshute]

Hitting a Pridemage is one of the best things the Needle can get. I do, however, see your point regarding the other problem cards.

I tried the Carpet of Flowers and wasn't too crazy about it. I felt like I wanted to be doing other things against RUG Delver, but maybe that's not what it's there for. What do you usually bring it in against?

I'm also not yet convinced of Moment's Peace. While it's a two turn fog, it's a mana hog and doesn't seem like it can allow you to push ahead. Can you elaborate on how you've been using it?

I'd forgotten about the Pridemage. Of course Needle is massive against this. That aside I'm still not too sure about the needle. Regarding Carpet of Flowers: I like it against RUG Delver. They are quite trigger happy when it comes to Noble Hierarchs so I like to side 2 out and replace them with 2 carpets. RUG also having Wastelands means that they can really mana screw us. But basically against anyone play blue I like siding them in. It's also neat that you can play it during your first main phase and then have the ability trigger during your second main phase of the same turn. Having said all of this, I've only played with them for one tournament (my latest). And while they seemed decent the jury might still be out.

Regarding Moment's Peace they are just awesome most of the time. I completely crushed a Dredge player with my 2 Moment's Peace: I had 1 Misthollow Griffin and 1 Noble Hierarch on the board as well as a Wall of Blossoms. He was getting more and more set up having around 3 or 4 Zombie Tokens and a Putrid Imp in a play and Ichorid in his GY. I had a MP in hand and cast it when he swung with everything. I was fairly low, like 7 or 8 life I think and he was a little higher. At maybe 11 or so. He looked at it, looked at his board and shrugged and passed the turn. I then drew a card (can't remember what), and attacked him for 4 taking him down to 7 and passed the turn. He had dredge some more and his army was now large enough to alpha strike me to death. He swung with everything again and I flashbacked the MP. Then he passed the turn and I could tell that he was feeling fairly confident. His EOT I Brainstormed and saw my second Moment's Peace. I drew, swung for 4 taking him down to 3 and passed the turn. He then proceeded to attack with his whole army. He had the imp to block my Griffin at least once but he was so overconfident that he attacked with that aswell. I MP'd him again and won the game.

Sorry for the long spiel. But that was just one (admittedly very favourable) example of what it can do. I also always side it in against Maverick. I find that Maverick decks usually end up being "the beatdown" against us and it can buy us additional rounds. That's what the card does best imo. It gives us extra draws to find our combo piece. And with that in mind I rarely find that its mana cost is a problem because when I'm staring down the barrel of a gun I don't usually need my mana for anything other than going off so I can keep 3 mana open during my opponents turn.


Hi all,

Metamet, i agree with you, i definitely adopted my 3rd Fierce empath, it's more stable.

You're right, Qasali pridemage is a real threat for us, and the worth being it can be tutored with Green sun's zenith, so just for this reason, Pithing needle is needed.

I also use Pithing needle against S&T naming Sneak attack too !

@nevilshute
For other threats you mentionned : Ethersworn canonist and Phyrexian revoker, i'll underline 2 points :
1) Phyrexian revoker is never played in the SB tables, because Pithing needle has the same effect (players don't know a lot of dangerous activated mana abilities) and it's more safe because it's non-creature. The Phyrexian revoker can be out with a simple Swords to plowshare
2) If your opponent has an Ethersworn canonist on the board, if you cast a anti-creature/anti-artifact on it, he'll sure :
a) protect it with Mother of runes in response, your spell will fizzle
b) play a counterspell, as you're under canonist's effect, you can't respond, your spell is countered.
So, the only good solution is Krosan grip, he can't respond and there's no more Ethersworn canonist on the board !

I have to underline one very important point, i think you should replace your Daze/Spell pierce by some Misdirection
Why ?

Because Return to Ravnica has revealed Abrupt decay and it'll sure be played in Legacy. I may theorize it'll be play main deck in decks with the appropriate colors, because it can destroy lots lots of things in the format .
Our Food chain cost :3: so if targetted by an Abrupt decay, your counterspell will become dead cards and you'll just lose games dumbly.
With Misdirection, you can retarget the spell on one of his permanents (or one of yours non Food chain !) and if he counter the Misdirection you can counter his counterspell

Death and Taxes frequently pack 3 Phyrexian Revokers in their main deck AND 3 Ethersword Canonists in their sideboard... we need to be able to answer that. I'm currently running 2x Krosan Grip and 1x Hurkyl's Recall (it gets rid of their Aether Vial too which is need in order for them to not just vial one of their creatures back down.

I think you're right about Misdirection becoming more of a card once Abrupt Decay hits. Still, I think I'll start by considering it for the sideboard. I've main decked Misdirection before and it has almost always been a let down. There are just too many decks where it's uses are too marginal.

[metamet]

What about white for Oblivion Ring? Helps our S&T matchup as well as being removal for problem creatures.

But Abrupt Decay may make this worse, but I don't imagine siding it in against Rock anyway. I can see Misdirection playing a bigger role in the future, too. For now I am hesitant to maindeck it as it's some card disadvantage.

[metamet]

Another route I've been thinking about taking this deck is with a SB of:

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

And maybe 1 Terastadon or so.

We'd side out our Food Chains and go further in on resolving an NO rather than playing around their Enchantment hate.

We have enough hatebears and we can still keep the Griffin beats side plan, but this sort of feels like Dredge siding into Painter Servant.

Thoughts?

-- Also, I haven't played in two weeks. Been moving and elsewise busy. Next week!

[metamet]

So I thought about the NO plan a bit more and I think it's pretty solid. I would like to test it, of course, but I see it being a good way to sidestep potential hate. It also eliminates us having to put together a puzzle, thus being able to run out a Manipulate Fate and expect a counter. And be okay with it.

Here's the current sideboard I am toying with. Mind you, I haven't any real testing with it yet, just theory:

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
2 Gilded Drake
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Scavenging Ooze


An easy sideboard plan against Food Chain hate (such as with Maverick or D&T), or even as a way of lessening the number of spells we need to resolve against UW Miracles:
+
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm

-
4 Food Chain
1 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul
2 Fierce Empath


Other cards worth considering with the NO sideboard would be Empyrial Archangel, Terastadon and that new 15/15, although I don't like how it's susceptible to Swords.

As always, I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts. I worry that we may not have enough mana dorks to allow the NO to be as strong as we'd like right away. Perhaps a Dryad Arbor would be worth it, although a little clunky (however FCable!) in G1.

[TerribleTim68]

Sure would love to run this, it certainly looks more fun than the "top tier" stuff. Problem is, I don't have the money for a Jace, The Mind Sculptor or Noble Heirarch. My thought was to just use Birds of Paradise for the Heirarchs and drop the Jace, the Wallet Drainer all together for something else. any thoughts on that? Does it totaly wreck the deck or can I still make a go of it?

My meta is the typical stuff, some RUG Delver, Elf-Combo, High Tide, Miracle-Whip, Omni-Tell, Maverick type stuff with the occasional Dredge, MUD deck thrown in just to keep your sideboard plans messed up. Pretty much everything you'd expect to see at a SCG Open.

[Awaclus]

Other cards worth considering with the NO sideboard would be Empyrial Archangel, Terastadon and that new 15/15, although I don't like how it's susceptible to Swords.
Most people will probably side Swords out. Griffins and Emrakuls aren't very good targets for it.

[nevilshute]

Another route I've been thinking about taking this deck is with a SB of:

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

And maybe 1 Terastadon or so.

We'd side out our Food Chains and go further in on resolving an NO rather than playing around their Enchantment hate.

We have enough hatebears and we can still keep the Griffin beats side plan, but this sort of feels like Dredge siding into Painter Servant.

Thoughts?

-- Also, I haven't played in two weeks. Been moving and elsewise busy. Next week!

That's sounds like a fun and interesting plan. I'd be very interested to hear how it pans out :) My one hesitation about radical plan b's like this would be that it seems like it will end up being a sort of a gamble between each game in a round, for both players. Let's say you run this SB plan at a tournament, it's safe to say that there's a very real possibility that after a few rounds people will learn what your SB plan is up to. At that point they can plan for it. Then you need to decide whether or not to play the NO plan or keep the Food Chains.

Also, what happens when you lose game1. Do you side in your NO plan now? Let's say you do and win game2. What then for game 3? Those might be a trivial concerns though. With that said though, I'm finding myself really like it. Sounds good :)


Sure would love to run this, it certainly looks more fun than the "top tier" stuff. Problem is, I don't have the money for a Jace, The Mind Sculptor or Noble Heirarch. My thought was to just use Birds of Paradise for the Heirarchs and drop the Jace, the Wallet Drainer all together for something else. any thoughts on that? Does it totaly wreck the deck or can I still make a go of it?

My meta is the typical stuff, some RUG Delver, Elf-Combo, High Tide, Miracle-Whip, Omni-Tell, Maverick type stuff with the occasional Dredge, MUD deck thrown in just to keep your sideboard plans messed up. Pretty much everything you'd expect to see at a SCG Open.

I'd say the deck can work just fine without Jace. The Noble Hierarchs are significantly better than Birds of Paradise and I fear you'd suffer with no nobles. I started this deck, like you, with only owning birds. And as I started buying the nobles I could really feel the power of exalted. They have quickly become one of my favorite legacy staples.

[metamet]

Sure would love to run this, it certainly looks more fun than the "top tier" stuff. Problem is, I don't have the money for a Jace, The Mind Sculptor or Noble Heirarch. My thought was to just use Birds of Paradise for the Heirarchs and drop the Jace, the Wallet Drainer all together for something else. any thoughts on that? Does it totaly wreck the deck or can I still make a go of it?

My meta is the typical stuff, some RUG Delver, Elf-Combo, High Tide, Miracle-Whip, Omni-Tell, Maverick type stuff with the occasional Dredge, MUD deck thrown in just to keep your sideboard plans messed up. Pretty much everything you'd expect to see at a SCG Open.

I'd say run it. Go:

-1 Jace
-4 Hierarch

+1 Sylvan Library
+4 Birds of Paradise

Then I'd work on replacing the Birds with Hierarchs, as they are a direct upgrade. They do make a difference, but I'd say the deck is operable without them. :)

I think Grokh is still running mostly Birds, slowly replacing them with Hierarchs. As nevilshute said, too, it's okay to start with them.

The deck is certainly worth playing, especially when you're looking to enjoy the game and the unique things you can do over playing Tier 1 lists. It does win games, and it's a blast to play! Sleeve it up and let is know your feedback.

nevilshute: I'll let you know how it goes. I certainly understand the goofiness of how and when to side them in... but it's an intriguing approach to keeping the surprises coming. I should be getting the NO's in the mail this week and hopefully I can play on Thursday.

Awaclus: You'd think so, but I've found that a lot of Maverick players leave them in and ping off my mana dorks. I agre that they're not worth keeping in, however. Hm.

[nevilshute]

@metamet:

I've been mulling your NO plan over since you wrote it and I'm liking it more and more. So much so that I'm in the process of aquiring a playset right now :)

My weekly tournament is tomorrow so I most likely will not have mine to play with by then so will have to wait till next week. Looking forward to hearing how you go on Thursday :)

Edit: Scratch that. Found out the guy I was buying the NOs from will be at the tournament tomorrow so I can get them in time to play with them. ChaCHING! :D

[Cybey]

Personally I really like the NO plan. One of the reasons why I'm not playing the Food Chain deck at the moment is because I would have to take my Protean Hulk deck apart for some of the cards. But now I will have another reason to do so, since I can still use my NOs :)

Just like TerribleTim, I don't currently own a Jace2, and didn't think it really would be a must-have for this deck. Fortunately I do own the Hierarchs.

What do you think I can use instead of Vendillion Cliques? I do not own those. Am watching them at the moment, but think it will be a while before I can get my hands on them.

I was also reading back a bit, where someone suggested to only play 2 Griffins instead of 3 and playing an extra Manipulate Fate. I was wondering if it would be an idea to play a Surgical Extraction mainboard, in case one of your griffins ends up in your graveyard for some reason.

[nevilshute]

Personally I really like the NO plan. One of the reasons why I'm not playing the Food Chain deck at the moment is because I would have to take my Protean Hulk deck apart for some of the cards. But now I will have another reason to do so, since I can still use my NOs :)

Just like TerribleTim, I don't currently own a Jace2, and didn't think it really would be a must-have for this deck. Fortunately I do own the Hierarchs.

What do you think I can use instead of Vendillion Cliques? I do not own those. Am watching them at the moment, but think it will be a while before I can get my hands on them.

I was also reading back a bit, where someone suggested to only play 2 Griffins instead of 3 and playing an extra Manipulate Fate. I was wondering if it would be an idea to play a Surgical Extraction mainboard, in case one of your griffins ends up in your graveyard for some reason.

I wouldn't like to go lower than 3 Griffins. Casting Manipulate Fate for 3 Griffins and then casting a Food Chain - with no win condition - is such an opressive play from your opponents perspective. Playing 2 is just on wrong side of underwhelming.

Surgical Extraction MB seems iffy. It's a dead card until one of your Griffins get countered - somthing you'll be playing around anyway - and you'll get tempted to extract some random card in your opponent's graveyard which a) is never as good as it seems and b) means you no longer have your extraction for your griffins.

I'd say try Gitaxian Probe until you get the cliques. It's obviously not as good although it being free is decidedly awesome. It means you can cast it for free on turn 2 before going off. It's a card I wish I could find room for but can't.

[metamet]

I am pretty ardant about a 3/3 split of Griffins and Manipulate Fates. I tested the two Griffins and didn't like it at all. Then I tested two Fates, and didn't like that either. I want a Manipulate Fate every single game, and drawing extras isn't a huge deal - pitch to FoW or just use it as a cantrip.

Sugrical Extraction is good in the side. I have saved a griffin from the GY before, but I wouldn't want it main.

Replacing Cliques... Hm. I'd say Probe is decent, but you really do want that extra body for Food Chain. I really like how Clique is flashable, so maybe something like Spellstutter Sprite? The problem is that you don't really care about a lot of 1CMC spells... What are some other flash creatures?

I'd say either that or another Mulldrifter and Wall of Roots.

Let us know how the NO plan works tonight nevilshute! I've been pretty pumped on it, as it looks like it'll solve the issues I had with the deck in some matchups. It single handedly solves our hatebears issue. :) Board wipes? PSH.

[Darkenslight]

If you need to replace the Cliques, how about Mystic Snake? It has flash, is a creature and has added utility for the deck.

[nevilshute]

I am pretty ardant about a 3/3 split of Griffins and Manipulate Fates. I tested the two Griffins and didn't like it at all. Then I tested two Fates, and didn't like that either. I want a Manipulate Fate every single game, and drawing extras isn't a huge deal - pitch to FoW or just use it as a cantrip.

Sugrical Extraction is good in the side. I have saved a griffin from the GY before, but I wouldn't want it main.

Replacing Cliques... Hm. I'd say Probe is decent, but you really do want that extra body for Food Chain. I really like how Clique is flashable, so maybe something like Spellstutter Sprite? The problem is that you don't really care about a lot of 1CMC spells... What are some other flash creatures?

I'd say either that or another Mulldrifter and Wall of Roots.

Let us know how the NO plan works tonight nevilshute! I've been pretty pumped on it, as it looks like it'll solve the issues I had with the deck in some matchups. It single handedly solves our hatebears issue. :) Board wipes? PSH.

Thanks metamet. The tournament isn't until tomorrow evening but will be sure to report how it went! If you can be bothered would you care to comment on my current SB then?

2x Surgical Extraction
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Submerge
2x Moment's Peace
1x Progenitus
1x Terastodon
1x Gilded Drake
4x Natural Order

I'm fairly happy with it except I don't have any artifact/enchantment removal. I started to think that won't be a problem except if my opponent drops an Ensnaring Bridge which I have yet to see live for more than 2½ months of weekly legacy.

[metamet]

Thanks metamet. The tournament isn't until tomorrow evening but will be sure to report how it went! If you can be bothered would you care to comment on my current SB then?

2x Surgical Extraction
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Submerge
2x Moment's Peace
1x Progenitus
1x Terastodon
1x Gilded Drake
4x Natural Order

I'm fairly happy with it except I don't have any artifact/enchantment removal. I started to think that won't be a problem except if my opponent drops an Ensnaring Bridge which I have yet to see live for more than 2½ months of weekly legacy.


You have Terry for the Ensnaring Bridges. :) I don't have any art/enchantment hate right now, and I'm not too terribly concerned... perhaps I'll be wrong, tho. KGrip is solid.

I would fit in 3 spell pierce/flusterstorm, as you want to bring in more counters when going all in on NO. I think you only need 3 pieces of gy hate depending on your meta, so maybe -1 relic, -2 Moment's Peace? Hrm... or maybe -1 Terry, but that card is pretty sweet, especially if you draw your other NO target.

Thoughts? I think we ought to get some more permission in there.

[metamet]

If you need to replace the Cliques, how about Mystic Snake? It has flash, is a creature and has added utility for the deck.


I like the Snake, but I worry 4CMC is just a little high on the curve. Hmm...

[nevilshute]

You have Terry for the Ensnaring Bridges. :) I don't have any art/enchantment hate right now, and I'm not too terribly concerned... perhaps I'll be wrong, tho. KGrip is solid.

I would fit in 3 spell pierce/flusterstorm, as you want to bring in more counters when going all in on NO. I think you only need 3 pieces of gy hate depending on your meta, so maybe -1 relic, -2 Moment's Peace? Hrm... or maybe -1 Terry, but that card is pretty sweet, especially if you draw your other NO target.

Thoughts? I think we ought to get some more permission in there.

Terry... took me a minute :p

Umm, I see what you mean about additional counter magic. How about Daze over Spell Pierce? With pierce we need 5 mana to attempt a NO... it seems to be a recurring dilemma for me. Daze or Spell Pierce :confused:

PS: Just pre-ordered the new 15/15 wurm. :)

[metamet]

Terry... took me a minute :p

Umm, I see what you mean about additional counter magic. How about Daze over Spell Pierce? With pierce we need 5 mana to attempt a NO... it seems to be a recurring dilemma for me. Daze or Spell Pierce :confused:

PS: Just pre-ordered the new 15/15 wurm. :)

What counterspells do you have main? I'm running 4 FoW and 3 Daze, been pretty happy with it.

Putting 3 Pierce in the side means that we're waiting that extra turn, but that extra turn typically doesn't matter much against control players, as they're durdling around and trying to get a good enough hand to match ours. We just have to outcounter them.

The 15/15 is sweet, if not for StP being out there... Grr. I am, however, thinking more and more about Empyrial Archangle. That card is bonkers against RUG and Burn, assuming we're able to land it.

And NO can't be hit by REB. Score.

[TerribleTim68]

So I also don't have any Vendilion Cliques but I do own 4x Mystic Snakes from back in the day. But I chose to replace the two Cliques with 2 Wall Of Blossoms to get another draw off of it. Goldfishing it doesn't seem too terrible but I'd be open to suggestions on something better. I know lots of times when I draw the Wall Of Blossoms I wish it was one fo the 2 Wall Of Roots. Not sure the Snake is the answer though, but I do have them and would love a chance to play them again.

What do yo udo when you draw a second or third Manipulate Fate? Obviously the first one strips the Misthollow Griffins out. But I often draw another one and have no idea what to do with it. I have been stripping the deck of fetches at that point to thin it. Is that the right play?

Some times the deck just seems to flop around until turn 4 or 5 and I worry that is too long. Then some times it's a turn 2 Grizz and Spaghetti Monster at the same time. :eyebrow: It's definately more fun, I just wonder if it's a 2-2 deck at best for my weekly tourney. I've been 3-1 and finishing 4th on tie-breakers for far too long. I need to get over that hump. :frown:

[metamet]

So I also don't have any Vendilion Cliques but I do own 4x Mystic Snakes from back in the day. But I chose to replace the two Cliques with 2 Wall Of Blossoms to get another draw off of it. Goldfishing it doesn't seem too terrible but I'd be open to suggestions on something better. I know lots of times when I draw the Wall Of Blossoms I wish it was one fo the 2 Wall Of Roots. Not sure the Snake is the answer though, but I do have them and would love a chance to play them again.

What do yo udo when you draw a second or third Manipulate Fate? Obviously the first one strips the Misthollow Griffins out. But I often draw another one and have no idea what to do with it. I have been stripping the deck of fetches at that point to thin it. Is that the right play?

Some times the deck just seems to flop around until turn 4 or 5 and I worry that is too long. Then some times it's a turn 2 Grizz and Spaghetti Monster at the same time. :eyebrow: It's definately more fun, I just wonder if it's a 2-2 deck at best for my weekly tourney. I've been 3-1 and finishing 4th on tie-breakers for far too long. I need to get over that hump. :frown:

I used to run 1 Wall of Roots and 1 Mulldrifter before I cut them for Cliques. Those used to work really well.

Extra Manipulate Fates hit the other Manipulate Fates and whatever cards aren't relevant. I typically hit green cards such as mana accell, as blue cards are good with FoW.

Although the deck can take a few turns to go off, it's important to be aggressive with the mulligans. I'm not too afraid to go to six, but five I get a little hesitant over. As we run so many cantrips, hands with a portion of our combo already in hand are easily rewarded later on.

Don't forget you can take the alt route of killing people with 3/3 flyers. We easily transform into a very mediocre UG midrange deck while waiting for the last piece of our combo.

I'd say goldfish it for a while. I've been playing the deck for too long to remember the key points to picking it up fresh, so maybe some others might have better feedback for starting with it.

One small bit of advice: if you have Griffins RFGs and both a Fierce Empath and a Food Chain in hand needing to be resolved, remember that people will kill the Empath if it's already in play in response to you casting the Chain, so lead cautiously.

[nevilshute]

What counterspells do you have main? I'm running 4 FoW and 3 Daze, been pretty happy with it.

Putting 3 Pierce in the side means that we're waiting that extra turn, but that extra turn typically doesn't matter much against control players, as they're durdling around and trying to get a good enough hand to match ours. We just have to outcounter them.

The 15/15 is sweet, if not for StP being out there... Grr. I am, however, thinking more and more about Empyrial Archangle. That card is bonkers against RUG and Burn, assuming we're able to land it.

And NO can't be hit by REB. Score.

Have been running 4 FoW and 2 Spell Pierce in my last 2 (very succesful) tournaments, but think I'm going to go back to Daze and up the count to 3 like you do.

Our lists are very similar. Where they differ (slightly) is that you run 3 Manipulate Fate whereas I only run 2. I'm happy with just 2 as it becomes dramatically less good after casting the first. That said, I can see the argument for running 3 as you would like to cast it every game. I also run Wall of Blossoms over Wall of Roots.

I really like Empyrial Archangel. It having Shroud really gives her the edge. I want a 2nd NO target. Just for redundancy's sake in case we start with Progenitus in hand and no Brainstorm. At the moment it is between: Terastodon, Worldspine Wurm and Empyrial Archangel. I'm tempted to take the easy way out and say that choice is meta dependant. Ideally we'd have a spot for 3 creatures in SB and could then side in the 2 most useful against any given match up. The Archangel is superb against RUG delver, Death & Taxes and other "fair" decks. But in some match ups, 5-power just isn't enough and won't end the game fast enough. Meh, if only the Worldspine Wurm would've had shroud! :)


So I also don't have any Vendilion Cliques but I do own 4x Mystic Snakes from back in the day. But I chose to replace the two Cliques with 2 Wall Of Blossoms to get another draw off of it. Goldfishing it doesn't seem too terrible but I'd be open to suggestions on something better. I know lots of times when I draw the Wall Of Blossoms I wish it was one fo the 2 Wall Of Roots. Not sure the Snake is the answer though, but I do have them and would love a chance to play them again.

What do yo udo when you draw a second or third Manipulate Fate? Obviously the first one strips the Misthollow Griffins out. But I often draw another one and have no idea what to do with it. I have been stripping the deck of fetches at that point to thin it. Is that the right play?

Some times the deck just seems to flop around until turn 4 or 5 and I worry that is too long. Then some times it's a turn 2 Grizz and Spaghetti Monster at the same time. :eyebrow: It's definately more fun, I just wonder if it's a 2-2 deck at best for my weekly tourney. I've been 3-1 and finishing 4th on tie-breakers for far too long. I need to get over that hump. :frown:

Some things I toiled with early on was stuff like getting the right amount of counter magic right. I tinkered with playing as many as 10, playing 4x Force of Will, 4x Daze and 2x Misdirection. That is ultimately too many and I wouldn't recommend running more than 6-7 counter cards MB.

I also found that running too many cantrip-creatures made the deck too unreliable as they were great when you had Food Chain in play but were decidedly sub-par when you didn't. That means that all of those mediocre-looking creatures you might see on some lists such as Raven Familiar, Court Hussar and Coiling Oracle really are quite mediocre and you should limit or completely avoid them. Instead load up on Ponders and 1 or 2 Sylvan Library. A Jace is also nice.

[grokh]

Hi,

I dunno why do you want à NO plan in sb, it's just worth than Emrakul
-NO can be countered, and if it is you have lost à creature
- having a Progenitus let 2 turns to your opponent to find a solution, if Emrakul you get an extra turn and then instant win cos your opponent has no board to cast a WoG

I think that 1 Maga, traitor to mortals in SB is enough as an alternate wincon when Emrakul isn't good enough, it's instant win too and can't be hated

[nevilshute]

Hi,

I dunno why do you want à NO plan in sb, it's just worth than Emrakul
-NO can be countered, and if it is you have lost à creature
- having a Progenitus let 2 turns to your opponent to find a solution, if Emrakul you get an extra turn and then instant win cos your opponent has no board to cast a WoG

I think that 1 Maga, traitor to mortals in SB is enough as an alternate wincon when Emrakul isn't good enough, it's instant win too and can't be hated

The NO plan lets you completely trick your opponent. For example:

You play against Maverick. You win game 1. They side in: 2x Krosan Grip, 2x Ethersworn Canonist and 2x Enlightened Tutor. You side out 4x Food Chain, 1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and side in 4x Natural Order and 1x Progenitus. They now have 6 dead cards and are completely un-prepared for your NO plan.

I think it can work. It is not a question of whether NO into Progenitus is better than Food Chain into Emrakul. It's a question of changing strategy to avoid SB hate :)

[grokh]

The NO plan lets you completely trick your opponent. For example:

You play against Maverick. You win game 1. They side in: 2x Krosan Grip, 2x Ethersworn Canonist and 2x Enlightened Tutor. You side out 4x Food Chain, 1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and side in 4x Natural Order and 1x Progenitus. They now have 6 dead cards and are completely un-prepared for your NO plan.

I think it can work. It is not a question of whether NO into Progenitus is better than Food Chain into Emrakul. It's a question of changing strategy to avoid SB hate :)
Lol, against Maverick 2-3 Krosan grip are enough in SB, no need NO plan

[nevilshute]

Lol, against Maverick 2-3 Krosan grip are enough in SB, no need NO plan

Not sure I completely agree with that. Krosan Grip doesn't counter Krosan Grip. It also doesn't deal with Quasali Pridemage.

Anyway, I have still to test it out tonight. Might not be as good as we hope, but I'm fairly optimistic. Will let you know this time tomorrow :)

[metamet]

Not sure I completely agree with that. Krosan Grip doesn't counter Krosan Grip. It also doesn't deal with Quasali Pridemage.

Anyway, I have still to test it out tonight. Might not be as good as we hope, but I'm fairly optimistic. Will let you know this time tomorrow :)

I'm with you nevilshute. Pridemage and opposing KGrips are issues we can't always efficiently get around. The NO plan effectively sidesteps needing to.

I have high hopes for it. Looking forward to hearing your results! I plan on playing with NO on Thursday, so I'll be sure to have some feedback by then as well.

[TerribleTim68]

I had also thought about the NO plan as well, mostly because I have them and wanted to do something with them. So this is sort of morphing into a two-for-one special for me. Something I was thinking about was running a single Dryad Arbor main deck and siding 2 Green Sun's Zenith. Couple reasons here, so hear me out. The main deck Arbor could be fetched in a pinch since it IS a Forest so it isn't totally dead. It also sacs to the Food Chain for a single mana which makes it less dead as well. And more importantly, post sideboard you can turn 1 GSZ into it to ramp a bit if you didn't hit a mana dork, then sac it to the NO as well.

Just a thought.

[metamet]

I had also thought about the NO plan as well, mostly because I have them and wanted to do something with them. So this is sort of morphing into a two-for-one special for me. Something I was thinking about was running a single Dryad Arbor main deck and siding 2 Green Sun's Zenith. Couple reasons here, so hear me out. The main deck Arbor could be fetched in a pinch since it IS a Forest so it isn't totally dead. It also sacs to the Food Chain for a single mana which makes it less dead as well. And more importantly, post sideboard you can turn 1 GSZ into it to ramp a bit if you didn't hit a mana dork, then sac it to the NO as well.

Just a thought.

I have been thinking about a one of Dryad Arbor as well, maybe nixing one of the fetches for it. Not sold on the GSZ, however, as the 75 is pretty cramped as it is.

I'd consider giving the Arbor a run.

[nevilshute]

Well I ended up going a decidedly avarage 3-3 last night:

vs BUG loam control - WON 2-0
vs Know and Tell - WON 2-0
vs Death and Taxes - LOST 0-2
vs Mono Red Burn - LOST 0-2
vs Maverick - WON 2-0
vs UB Delver control - LOST 1-2

The ones in bold are where I sided in our NO package. Against D&T I lost game 1 fairly clearly. Game 2 went much smoother and I was just waiting to hit a Natural Order having enough control over the board that it would win me the game (had 2x hierarchs and 1 bird so plenty of sacking targets and had a Clique swinging for 5). I even had a Sylvan Library which I shuffled twice with fetchlands and still didn't see a NO. 3 turns passed and he was at 5 but had by then established enough of a lead on the board to kill me and I just never got the NO. Against Maverick the NO package worked a treat. Caught him quite off guard and he just didn't have an answer for turn 4 Progenitus. Against UB Delver Control (which was played by a very good friend of mine) I won game 1, decided not to side in NO for game 2 and lost. Then sided it in for game 3 and lost that as well despite going off. It was stupid of me to bring in NO when I knew he was playing with Diabolic Edicts and no real sideboard plan for Food Chain anyway.

All in all I'm happy with the NO package and am going to keep it. I really liked Terastodon because twice it killed a Liliana of the Veil which would otherwise have seen me sacrifice Proggy.

I won't say the NO plan was a jaw dropping miracle cure for our deck but it definitely adds some flair against certain match ups such as Maverick and Death and Taxes. A thing to be aware of, however, is that it is far from a no brainer move between game 1 and 2. There are several match ups where it's certainly not an auto switch. In these cases it's better to not switch between g1 and g2 and instead wait and see if he has some answer in his SB for Food Chain that you weren't aware of.

Here's my list for reference:

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
3x Ponder
2x Manipulate Fate

3x Misthollow Griffin
3x Noble Hierarch
2x Birds of Paradise
2x Fierce Empath
2x Mulldrifter
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Wall of Blossoms
1x Aethersnipe
1x Griselbrand
1x Maga, Traitor to Mortals
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1x Sylvan Library
4x Food Chain

4x Tropical Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Windswept Heath
1x Flooded Strand
2x Ancient Tomb
3x Forest
3x Island

4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
1x Terastodon
2x Submerge
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Moment's Peace
2x Spell Pierce

So to sum up: All in all I'm happy with how the NO plan worked... and all in all I hate Death and Taxes - that deck seems so hard to beat it's silly. But even though it didn't pan out I felt like the NO plan gives us a big boost especially against D&T.

[metamet]

Thanks for the writeup! I can see how digging for one of four cards can catch you up, as it's happened to me with FC before as well.

Quick thoughts on that: what if we sided in the NO package in addition to FC? Say something like:

-2 Mulldrifter
-1 Misthollow Griffin
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Gris

+4 NO
+1 Progenitus

That way we have 8 cards to dig for. Thoughts?

And I can see how Terry would be perfect when our opponent has a Lily. Forgot she's a card. :)

And why are you still running Maga?! :P

[nevilshute]

Thanks for the writeup! I can see how digging for one of four cards can catch you up, as it's happened to me with FC before as well.

Quick thoughts on that: what if we sided in the NO package in addition to FC? Say something like:

-2 Mulldrifter
-1 Misthollow Griffin
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Gris

+4 NO
+1 Progenitus

That way we have 8 cards to dig for. Thoughts?

And I can see how Terry would be perfect when our opponent has a Lily. Forgot she's a card. :)

And why are you still running Maga?! :P

That's not a bad idea at all. I jus finished testing that SB strategy against a friend of mine (UB delver control) and it seemed smoother.

Think there are still match ups where it will work nicely to side out Food Chain altogether and just run the NO package with whatever else you might need for that match up. Think it will take some time for us to get the hang of when to do what but I'm really pleased with the flexibility the NO package offers us :)

And regarding Maga... well I've actually been thinking a lot about it and here's the thing:

you're running 3x Empath and 1 Emrakul, I run 2x Empath, 1x Emrakul and 1x Maga. If you take away that Empath can tutor for Grissy and Aethersnipe then we're basically left with 4 win condition draws each, if you follow. And I have to admit I like having the chance to get a win condition that instant kills and gets around stuff like Ensnaring Bridge or a board with 6-7 Bitterblossom faeries and 5-6 swamps and me on low life.

The argument that Maga can be countered whereas Emrakul can't is well and good. But Maga is there in place of a Fierce Empath and the Empath can be countered as well. Also, if you're sitting with Maga in hand and a Griffin RFG and a Food Chain on the board and you try to go off then what is going to get countered most of the time is your griffin, in my experience. If your Griffin resolves then 99% of the time it means they can't counter.

Anyway, Maga rant over :p

[metamet]

That's not a bad idea at all. I jus finished testing that SB strategy against a friend of mine (UB delver control) and it seemed smoother.

Think there are still match ups where it will work nicely to side out Food Chain altogether and just run the NO package with whatever else you might need for that match up. Think it will take some time for us to get the hang of when to do what but I'm really pleased with the flexibility the NO package offers us :)

And regarding Maga... well I've actually been thinking a lot about it and here's the thing:

you're running 3x Empath and 1 Emrakul, I run 2x Empath, 1x Emrakul and 1x Maga. If you take away that Empath can tutor for Grissy and Aethersnipe then we're basically left with 4 win condition draws each, if you follow. And I have to admit I like having the chance to get a win condition that instant kills and gets around stuff like Ensnaring Bridge or a board with 6-7 Bitterblossom faeries and 5-6 swamps and me on low life.

The argument that Maga can be countered whereas Emrakul can't is well and good. But Maga is there in place of a Fierce Empath and the Empath can be countered as well. Also, if you're sitting with Maga in hand and a Griffin RFG and a Food Chain on the board and you try to go off then what is going to get countered most of the time is your griffin, in my experience. If your Griffin resolves then 99% of the time it means they can't counter.

Anyway, Maga rant over :p

Seems fair. We can chalk this one up to style points. :P

I will be playing it tonight and will hopefully have some feedback. Glad to hear your thoughts on the NO+ sideboard! Especially if the Food Chain gets countered and is just a decoy anyway. haha.

[Awaclus]

you're running 3x Empath and 1 Emrakul, I run 2x Empath, 1x Emrakul and 1x Maga. If you take away that Empath can tutor for Grissy and Aethersnipe then we're basically left with 4 win condition draws each, if you follow. And I have to admit I like having the chance to get a win condition that instant kills and gets around stuff like Ensnaring Bridge or a board with 6-7 Bitterblossom faeries and 5-6 swamps and me on low life.

The argument that Maga can be countered whereas Emrakul can't is well and good. But Maga is there in place of a Fierce Empath and the Empath can be countered as well. Also, if you're sitting with Maga in hand and a Griffin RFG and a Food Chain on the board and you try to go off then what is going to get countered most of the time is your griffin, in my experience. If your Griffin resolves then 99% of the time it means they can't counter.

Anyway, Maga rant over :p

I think you should be running 1x Fierce Empath, 1x Emrakul, 1x Maga and 1x Imperial Recruiter. Recruiter can search for Maga, but it can also search for Empath, which then can search for Emrakul.

I feel bad for your wallet though.

[metamet]

I think you should be running 1x Fierce Empath, 1x Emrakul, 1x Maga and 1x Imperial Recruiter. Recruiter can search for Maga, but it can also search for Empath, which then can search for Emrakul.

I feel bad for your wallet though.

The other Empath targets are AEthersnipe and Griselbrand, though. So you want a few more of those available. :)

Food Chain + Imperial Recruiter & Phantasmal Image is another neat combo that we haven't talked much about, but it's pretty big and expensive. :X

[nevilshute]

I think you should be running 1x Fierce Empath, 1x Emrakul, 1x Maga and 1x Imperial Recruiter. Recruiter can search for Maga, but it can also search for Empath, which then can search for Emrakul.

I feel bad for your wallet though.

Heya Awaclus,

Aside from the $300 shaped hole in my wallet that recruiter would leave behind I have reservations about using him in this deck simply due to him requiring red mana to cast. This point is obviously not very relevant if we have a Food Chain on the table and is ready to go off. But if that were the case and "all" we had in our hand was an Imperial Recruiter, and that recruiter had replaced, say, a Fierce Empath then we're left with practically the same situation. Recruiter can only tutor for Maga, Empath can only tutor for Emrakul.

I know that Recruiter can also search for Empath, but if it's an Empath it is replacing then it becomes a moot point.

Looking forward to hearing how you did with the NO plan metamet :)

[metamet]

Unfortunately I didn't have much of a chance to use the sideboard last night, as I lost my first two matches and readily won my remaining.

Match one was against TES, which he took the first game on. I had the Food Chain on the top of the deck and was prepared to go off (having all other pieces), but he Tendrils me for 16 while I sat at 15.

Game two he hits heavy with Inquisitions and Therapys, running both of my counterspells out of my hand. Eek! Not much else I could've done there.

Match two was against D&T. Game one was close, but he swings in with Flickerwisps and an active Mom. Game two was pretty bonkers, as I go Trop > Hierarch, he plays Waste, Gut Shot my Hierarch (I force), then he wastes my Trip.

I draw, play a land, pass. He plays a land, Gut Shots again, killing the Hierarch. I draw a Tomb and can't play the Natural order in my hand. Then I never draw another green source.

I played against UR Delver and win. I then play against Enchantress and Terastadon his lands in game two. I Food Chain > Empathed for it, even though I had the NO in hand. :)

Overall, I ran bad and don't feel I got enough in to really judge how good it is. I am sort of wondering if we should just maindeck the NO... as it's pretty dang good. I like having eight cards to dig for instead of just four.

Something to think about.

[TerribleTim68]

I don't know. Here's my opinion (which we all know what those are like):

Ultimately I moved away from the NO sideboard plan because if I was going to play NO why not just play NO-rug. there's a pretty good deck build based around that. Why try to recreate it? I think we may be slowing the deck down or dilluting it somehow by trying to take pieces out to make room for the NO pieces. Plus, we lose sideboard room to respond to different things by using those slots for the NO plan. I think I'd rather just board answers than a whole new question.

I really like the deck. Still, I have yet to play the deck against someone, so there's that. :tongue:

[Awaclus]

I know that Recruiter can also search for Empath, but if it's an Empath it is replacing then it becomes a moot point.

It doesn't. Because it can search for Empath, when you're going off it's at least as good as Empath and sometimes better. It's worse than Empath only when you don't have Food Chain, and in that situation you don't even need the Empath unless the opponent has Needle or other AEthersnipe targets.

[nevilshute]

Unfortunately I didn't have much of a chance to use the sideboard last night, as I lost my first two matches and readily won my remaining.

Match one was against TES, which he took the first game on. I had the Food Chain on the top of the deck and was prepared to go off (having all other pieces), but he Tendrils me for 16 while I sat at 15.

Game two he hits heavy with Inquisitions and Therapys, running both of my counterspells out of my hand. Eek! Not much else I could've done there.

Match two was against D&T. Game one was close, but he swings in with Flickerwisps and an active Mom. Game two was pretty bonkers, as I go Trop > Hierarch, he plays Waste, Gut Shot my Hierarch (I force), then he wastes my Trip.

I draw, play a land, pass. He plays a land, Gut Shots again, killing the Hierarch. I draw a Tomb and can't play the Natural order in my hand. Then I never draw another green source.

I played against UR Delver and win. I then play against Enchantress and Terastadon his lands in game two. I Food Chain > Empathed for it, even though I had the NO in hand. :)

Overall, I ran bad and don't feel I got enough in to really judge how good it is. I am sort of wondering if we should just maindeck the NO... as it's pretty dang good. I like having eight cards to dig for instead of just four.

Something to think about.

Sounds like you had some rough luck there mate. Think we'll need some more time to fully assess the NO package. However, I have to say that I'm not the biggest fan of running NO maindeck. I'm worried that it will be too taxing and that it will mean the "heart" of our deck will suffer as we will need to remove key components. I like siding in NO, though, without removing Food Chain against certain match ups :)


It doesn't. Because it can search for Empath, when you're going off it's at least as good as Empath and sometimes better. It's worse than Empath only when you don't have Food Chain, and in that situation you don't even need the Empath unless the opponent has Needle or other AEthersnipe targets.

I know what you mean, but it's such a small difference. And coupled with the fact that he requires red mana I don't think it's very advisable. At $300 I'll never find out, but I'm not too bothered tbh.

[nevilshute]

Does anyone have any news to report?

I've had some pretty bad runs my past 3 tournaments going 3-3 every time. I'm not sure exactly what's going wrong. The Natural Order plan is still something I like. I often side in 2 NO + Progenny, just to have the chance to do something unexpected. Only against decks that can side in revoker, canonist etc do I completely leave out Food Chain for game 2. I'm getting 2 Tarmogoyfs later next week so looking forward to trying them out in my SB since I've never had the chance to before.

[TerribleTim68]

Well, I do have some news to report but it isn't good. :cry:

I took the following list to my local weekly in an effort to actually play something that might be fun. The list (I think since my memory sucks and I don't have it in front of me right now):

Creatures: 19
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Griselbrand
3 Misthollow Griffin
3 Fierce Empath
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Wall of Roots
1 Aethersnipe
2 Mulldrifter

Spells: 18
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Ponder
3 Manipulate Fate

Enchantments: 5
4 Food Chain
1 Sylvan Library

Lands: 18
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Tropical Island
4 Island
3 Forest
3 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor

SB-
3 Misdirection
1 Daze
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Progenitus
1 Terastodon
1 Gilded Drake
1 Desolation Angel
2 Moment's Peace

Now for the report -

Round 1 vs Guy playing U/B Helm/Leyline thing:
Game 1 - He wins the roll (as always) and leads with a Ponder I think. I lead with Fetch into Tropical Island, Birds of Paradise. He plays some funky card that lets him remove 3 cards from my deck, which I let resolve. He then strips my Force of Wills for some odd reason. Next turn I go Food Chain into Wall of Roots into Misthollow Griffin into Fierce Empath into Griselbrand into Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and he stares at my board in disbelief and scoops 'em up. I'm pretty sure that's exactly how it's suppose to go down.

I think I sb'ed the other Daze and the Misdirections.

Game 2 - He leads with Leyline of the Void and I'm thinking "Ok, what ever". I durdle around a bit not finding anything I really need. He eventually strips my hand apart with Cabal Therapys and then drops Helm of Obedience. I stare at it in total shock having only heard legends about it but never seen anyone actually play it and then scoop 'em up.

Game 3 - I run out a turn 1 Birds of Paradise. He plays a Cabal Therapy naming Daze and is saddened to see me holding the FoW he really wanted. I scuplt a bit, eventually pitching a Griffin to a FoW so it's where I want it anyway and then combo out into Emmy, to which he scoops 'em up.

1-0

Round 2 vs Dude playing Fish:
Game 1 - I'm not at all jazzed to see him win the roll and lead with turn 1 Aether Vial with me not having a FoW in hand. It's pretty much all down hill from there as he drops a Cavern of Souls on top of the Vial. I lose this one in short order.

Game 2 - Pretty much the exact same deal, but at least I got to play first.

1-1

Round 3 vs Yet another Dude playing Fish:
Game 1 - This seemed exactly like the last match. Oh yea, because it was.

Game 2 - I feel like I'm in some sort of wierd "Groundhog Day" ordeal. :frown:

1-2

I then dropped because there was an odd number of players and I'm sure I'd have gotten a bye for the last round anyway. Plus, my wife showed up and we went to Hooters for wings! Yay! In the end, I think this means I won because a girl showed up to the Magic Tourney and I left with her. :tongue: :cool:

So my thoughts:
I'm sure you will all say my list was sub-par, and you're probably right. But the list itself couldn't have been that bad. I had a couple games where it all worked right. Outside of those couple games, it just flopped big time. Against top tier decks, I really think it had no chance. I set out to play something that might be fun and different. While it was different, it totally failed to be any fun sitting there durdling while my opponent crushed me game after game after game. It was good that I was able to put it together for next to nothing because I'm not sure I'll be continuing down this road. I would have killed for some sort of Artifact removal in my board because it was THAT important all night. A freaking Naturalize would have changed EVERYTHING!!!!

[metamet]

I didn't play last week, but I did play the week before, going 2-1-1.

If I remember correctly, I lost against Death and Taxes, which continues to be a rough matchup for me. All the hate bears in the world, every game. :)

I drew the last round of the night, making back my entry fee money.

I forget what I won against, however... I believe it was Enchantress and Nic Fit, though. Nothing terribly exciting to report there, except I sided in Terry against Enchantress and FC'd into it (I had both combos prepped to go off, choosing to Empath for Terry over NO'ing it), blowing up his lands and locking him out of the game.

I'm not sure what else we can do with the deck at the moment. I'd like to let the metagame resettle, as Abrupt Decay may not look good for us. I'd like to see how common it is in my local meta.

I've been wanting to play Baleful Stix recently, so I've been attempting to brew some lists with that. Caleb took over SCG this weekend, but his list makes me nervous... hah.

Unfortunately, RtR didn't offer this deck anything. :/

[grokh]

Hi all,

I'm still testing Baleful strix and it seems better each time i test. Going by the air with a 2/2 or 3/3 exalted (I'm running 4 Noble hierarch) Fly Deathtouch creature is just awesome.

It almost can be another way to kill and your opponent will sure crack his Qasali pridemage on it if he has one, letting you safe for Food chain

For the black mana i run 1 Bayou + 2 birds, FC can produce black for Strix too... Good ?

I've cut the Aethersnipe for a 3rd Strix.

Do i need a 4th one, I'd cut 1 Fierce empath I think ?

[gottfrid]

----- Warning, long post ahead ---------

Been tweaking this deck for the last two weeks for a tournament this weekend.
Yesterday I went 3-1 at the weekly tuesday tournament and went well in testing with friends. This is my list so far:

4 Food chain
3 Misthollow griffin
3 Fierce empath
3 Manipulate fate
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
1 wurmcoil engine

4 Deathrite shaman

4 Baleful strix
3 Shardless agent
1 Coiling oracle

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Force of will
3 Cabal therapy

1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground sea
1 Bayou
3 Tropical island
4 Polluted delta
3 Misty rainforest
4 Verdant catacombs

SB:
4 Abrupt decay
3 Relic of progenitus
2 Darkblast
2 Null rod
1 Cabal therapy
1 Spell pierce
2 Mindbreak trap

Observations:

The best cards in the deck are Deathrite shaman, Baleful strix and Abrupt decay. Particularly the shaman has proved to be sick. blocking lackeys, exiling stuff and regrowing griffins while never failing to play the role of a Birds of paradise. Also him over birds makes it so that Fire//ice and forked bolt are not blowouts against us.

Only 3 Therapy because we are looking to grind out games and multiple therapies can be really bad against agressive decks. 4th in the board. The deck needs one (exactly one) auxiliary target for the empaths. This card is very seldomly played by foodchain mana and should therefore be a 6-drop. I've liked Wurmcoil over Grave titan due to the fact that if wurmcoil resolves against rug (which it actually does) you literally can't lose. It's bad against swords but by the time you play it you should have saved a therapy flashback to clear that out of control players' hands. I've not tested against maverick yet so I'm not 100% on Wurmcoil yet.

Shardless agents are almost always good and increases the virtual density of sideboard solutions. Against RUG where you side in 4 decay and 3 relic, the agents really get you to a good lategame by cascading into SB cards or a strix.

Originally the list had Gitaxian probes instead of ponders. While good with therapy probe is so much worse than ponder that it's just not worth it. The lifeloss is really relevant too.

Stuff I need help with:

The 2 mindbreak traps in the board feel really random but I can't think of what else to put in there. Anyone who had some sideboard cards that worked out well in specific matchups?

The one-off coiling orcle is a bit lame. I like the idea of an eighth two-drop but there might be something better?

What do people usually exile with the second/third Manip fate ?

Other than that I'm pretty sure this is the way to go...

[metamet]

I like the BUG shell with Deathrite Shaman. I'm waiting for the rest of my playset to arrive in the mail, but I plan on playing around with them.


For excess Manipulate Fates, grab other Manipulate Fates or non-blue cards that won't pitch to FoW.
Vendilion Clique has been fantastic, as is Jace, the Mind Sculptor as an alt wincon if you want to go in that direction.
Misdirection is another solid SB card, especially when facing opposing Abrupt Decays.
Wall or Roots or Wall of Blossoms are stronger replacements for Coiling Oracle, especially given your mana base.


Keep us updated! I am not playing legacy this week, but Shardless Agent has been on my tinkering list recently, and I've had a lot of fun with it alongside Strix.

[grokh]

Hi metamet,

After having been testing Baleful strix on a 28-players tournament, i'm arrived to the conclusion than it doesn't justify a :b: splash.

This is a real good card, but it's better in other decks like Iron wings/UB Bridgewalkers.

Having only a Food chain plan has really been a weakness to me.

I'm know building on a Natural order B plan with 4 Natural order + 1 Progenitus and like you know I've always loved Skyshroud cutter, think i'm gonna include it for this reasons :
1) He can accelerate your Food chain plan, with :5: manas on turn 2
2) It's a free green creature, allows you to go on Natural order even without a green creature on board !

I'm on this list for now :

http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck.php?300374

// NAME : Food chain
// CREATOR : grokh (magic-ville.com)
// FORMAT : Legacy
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [UNH] Forest
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [UNH] Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [AVR] Griselbrand
1 [CFX] Progenitus
2 [M12] Birds of Paradise
2 [CMD] Mulldrifter
2 [NE] Skyshroud Cutter
3 [CMD] Fierce Empath
3 [AVR] Misthollow Griffin
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [MM] Food Chain
2 [MM] Misdirection
4 [CMD] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [IN] Manipulate Fate
3 [M12] Ponder
4 [PT] Natural Order

Still hesitating with 2 Mulldrifter / 2 Raven familiar / 1 Mulldrifter + 1 Raven familiar ... ?

Do you think there is enough :u: cards for Force of will, enough :g: creatures for Natural order ?

[gottfrid]

Thanks for the comment. I will swap the one coiling oracle I had in my list for either a wall of roots or sylvan library. I considered misdirection previously but with the UBg version you already have therapy which can sort of deal with decay.

I also found the card that I will run instead of wurmcoil: consecrated sphinx.
Playing only him and emrakul, as cards being dead on starting hand (and him sometimes even pitched to FoW) keeps the annoying unintended muligans to a minimum.

I will also probably run vendilion clique instead of the mindbreak traps I had in my board. I realize now that it's probably actually a better card against storm, while also being good against instants that answer food chain. Nice tip!

I'll let u know how I'll do this weekend (~50-11 ppl tournament for a mox)


Having read this entire thread now I almost feel like these are different decks. The UBg list i run usually wins after quite a lot of grinding, so that's where the focus lies with cards like strix and shaman. In fact I only win around half of the games with emrakul. the other half is through playing food-chain + 3 griffins or just winning without food chain (usually sitting behind strixes and disruption shooting the to death with shamen).

On the other hand this deck almost never gets the quick (t3-4) food chain wins that the UG version can do. As a combo player that makes me kinda sad =/

[gottfrid]

Played a tournament with a UBg version of this deck last weekend. 1st prize was a NM Mox sapphire so I was pretty excited to test this deck in a real tournament. fewer people than expected showed up though, so we only played 5r swiss.

R1 vs Merfolk

Island-> vial and I put him on merfolk. He has little gas other than a pair of 2/1s that I can actually block. He plays two standstill which I break but he doesn't find any lords. In short, his deck failed put enough pressure on and when I played food chain I could pay for the spell pierce he held.

In g2 he I did a neat play that is important in this deck. When facing wasteland you want to fetch basic swamp to cast your Deathrite shaman. Next turn you can sac a fetchland, respond by getting a blue mana and brainstorm in response to your own fetch. Lost the game eventually because he had both lord of atlantis and lord of pearl trident and I had island in play.

G3 I buy some time with abrupt decay and force the combo through with cabal therapy.

1-0

R2 UR nivmagus elemental aggro

I won the first game but it was close. His price of progress would've gotten there if I had fetched the wrong land.

In g2 I play a ponder as if it was a brainstorm. Cards intermixed with my hand so I recieved a gameloss. In game three i get a ton of time to do whatever I want. I Empath for consecrated sphinx and play it which is enough.

2-0

R3 Spiral tide

My opponent is a good player but I manage to win the round 2-1. I comboed out pretty quickly the first game paired with a force of will for disruption. G2 I was destroyed by 3 timespirals and 7 high tides. G3 he stumbled on landdrops for two turns at 2 lands. Spiral tide does not want to miss landdrops. Iwin.

R4 and R5 ID

Quarterfinals RUG

He starts on the play and puts a delver into play. After that he plays cautiously and keeps mana up for counterspell the whole game. After trading for his disruption I have a Shardless agent in play and four mana when I'm forced to try and play food chain. He has two dazes. I had exiled griffins and empath in hand to his 5 permanents =(

In the last game I was punished for the kinda greedy manabase. On r3 I had two fetches in play and I donät draw a third land. He has U up but I felt I had to play into his stifle since I held two strixes and a relic of progenitus. He stifles. I play relic and cycle it next turn. Meanwhile he has a delver beating me down. I find the mana and cantrip like crazy playing two strix and ponders. He has bolts for my strix and I dont draw a single abrupt decay which would've stopped his only threat.

I was pretty bummed out to have lost after going so smoothly through the swiss but I got to draft (side-event) so I soon forgot about the loss. Also the guy I lost to is a really good friend so it was ok.

I think this deck is good and without having tested the ug version I think the strix should be worth the splash. It takes a certain type of player to enjoy playing cards like cabal therapy so I understand that people prefer straight up UG version. At the end of the day I think abrupt decay is the card that pushes the black version over the edge. The card is really good as it can beat both t1 delver and t2 counterbalance.

I would not change the deck much but I would probably play at least three basics since I missed the forest in one match.

This threads needs more activity. Please post reports if you play this deck in tournaments. I think it might be really good

[metamet]

Thanks for the report! Mind posting your final decklist and sideboard?

How have you been liking Shardless Agent? I ran it for a little bit but found that I want the Daze/Pierce over the cascade, but Cabal Therapy changes the value there. Have you cascaded into Manipulate Fate yet?

I am definitely a proponent of at least three basics in this deck, especially if you're running three colors. This allows you work around a waste lock and still cast your Food Chain for the win.

Have you missed AEthersnipe as an Empath target? Its ramp and bounce ability has won me a fair number of games, which makes me hesitant to cut it.

I plan on playing this week, likely this deck. What turn have you been winning on lately?

[nevilshute]

Hey there,

I've been taking a break from the Food Chain deck but am delighted to see that others are still playing it. Recently I've started to tinker with the deck again however. Gottfrid: I love that you've brought on Consecrated Sphinx. I've wanted to do that for a while. How is it working out?

I've decided to bring in Progenitus and 2 Natural Order main deck which I'm liking so far. Yesterday I decided to splash white and bring some Swords to Plowshares in place of Daze to a tournament at my LGS. I had an absolutely rotten run of luck and got beaten thoroughly by Dredge, Reanimator, Bug Delver, Death and Taxes and BG Pox. I won't bother going into details on the defeats. Needless to say, I'm considering changing things up a bit and I like the splash for black. It will require switching Noble Hierarchs for Birds of Paradise which I've really struggled to come to terms with but have now accepted.

I'm curious to learn how important you find Baleful Strix? I personally don't like having my 2-drops being 2-colored as it hinders you going off on turn 2 (baring a Sol-land).

I'm looking to buy some Deathrite Shamans and Abrupt Decays. Will report back with more info.

[gottfrid]

The list I played (in the report).

4 Food Chain
3 Manipulate Fate
3 Misthollow Griffin
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Fierce Empath
1 Consecrated Sphinx

4 Baleful Strix
3 Shardless agent
1 Sylvan Library

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Force of Will
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant catacombs

SB was:
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Null Rod
2 Darkblast
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Spell Pierce

I would change one tropical for a basic forest and maybe increase the land count to 20 by cutting one shardless agent. The SB is also extremely meta dependent but I think abrupt decay should be in the SB if not in the main.

The sylvan Library was always good and will stay in.

On the Aethersnipe issue I have never encountered the situation where the combo (playing Emmy with inf mana) does not get there. I realize that cards like Ensnaring bridge nad phyrexian revoker naming Food Chain exist but I choose not to care.
In this list I have cut Griselbrand for Consecrated Sphinx as auxiliary empath target. That means that I have nothing to do with the ramp from an evoked aethersnipe anyway. I realize that griselbrand is much more powerful than Sphinx but I reason that if you are only going to play him with food chain mana anyway, why not just play the fourth empath or emrakul.

I play him because of two reasons. I want to actually cast him and win games (which happens, and he's pretty sick when not answered). And I want to tutor for a FoW-pitchable card when I have multiples of Empath, or when I have shaman action going and just want to stop whatever play my opponent has next.

On Shardless Agent: Yes, I have actually played Shardless with only Empath in hand, no foodchain or griffins. I cascaded into manipulate fate, exiled three griffins, shuffled and drew food chain. Usually though, he's just a way to provide card value in the form of redundant creatures that trade up / pitch to food Chain.

I totally agree on UG or UB costed creatures. They make you either choose the grindier route that plays strixes but is slower, or the quicker Sol-land powered version where these creatures do not fit due to the mana constraints. In those decks mulldrifter or raven familiar is probably better in the cantrip-creature slot.

Not sure which is the better way to go here.

The average winning turn is very very dependent on matchup. against RUG your average winning turn is definately after t10. When it's important to be as fast as possible (elves, burn etc) you usually goldfish turn 5 or so ( but you probably Fow and/or therapy at least once in the meantime).

[metamet]

How often did you use the flashback ability of Cabal Therapy? I am wondering if Thoughtseize is a stronger card, especially going in blind on protecting an upcoming combo.

[metamet]

Here is the list I ran last night. I went 3-0, split the final round for cash. I played against Mono-Blue (2-0), Bant (2-0), and Omni-Show (2-1).

Back in the day, the black splash was not worth it simply for Baleful Strix. However, now that we have Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman, I believe the splash is now justified. After playing with the new cards, I feel it performs about the same speed-wise. The UG version allowed for T2/T3 wins out of nowhere, which was pretty explosive, but most of my games went further in the round. BUG doesn't have the capability to go that far, but, due to Strix, you're able to run out cantrips and keep a full grip for the first handful of turns while setting up your board position to win.

I won two games off of Strix beats and Shaman chomping. The utility of the Shaman is quite astounding, as the life gain allows you to absorb a few turns of attacks without worry.

AEthersnipe still deserves main deck support. There was one game where I could have done the old Griselbrand trick with AEthersnipe, but I didn't have the Gris in the deck... I still won, but it took a few more turns. The Snipe, however, is really good against Show and Tell decks and can set back an aggressive deck a few turns, which is usually all we need. Not to mention how it is mana ramp if we have a Food Chain with an empty board.

The Shardless Agents were nice as cantripping creatures. Part of me wants them to be JTMS, as I think Jace is such a solid addition to this deck, but I'm committed to testing them for a bit longer, as every deck I've played sing UG Food Chain has had them in it. Only seems right to keep running with them...

Here's the list I ran:
MAIN:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Shardless Agent
3 Misthollow Griffin
3 Fierce Empath
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 AEthersnipe

1 Sylvan Library
4 Food Chain

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Manipulate Fate
3 Cabal Therapy

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant catacombs

SB:
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 ?

[metamet]

I played this Saturday at a Legacy tournament for duals. I lost on the win-and-in against RUG Delver. I had two Abrupt Decays game two, but I just couldn't keep up with how many creatures he pumped out.

I don't believe that Cabal Therapies have a maindeck spot, as they were too preemptive in a lot of matchups where I didn't care what the opponent had in hand. While they're great in some matchups, I would rather have them in the sideboard. I plan on replacing the three with 2 Cliques and 1 Gris (more to come). This turns all of our Shardless Agents into cantrips/Library, as we NEED to dig for the Food Chain. The maindeck Cliques are also great coming down end of opponent's turn, stripping them of their spell we'd want to hit with Cabal Therapy or cycling one of our cards, all while providing a body for the next turn's Food Chain.

I also think that our old AEthersnipe > Gris trick is still work preserving, as I don't like relying on infinite mana to win. The fact that we have a two card combo in the form of Food Chain and Fierce Empath when we have Snipe and Gris in the deck is worth the slot. There were a few occasions where I durdled around and didn't have anything to explode into, as this old trick would've been the solution.

As such, here is my new list:

MAIN:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Shardless Agent
3 Misthollow Griffin
3 Fierce Empath
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 AEthersnipe
1 Griselbrand
2 Vendilion Clique

1 Sylvan Library
4 Food Chain

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Manipulate Fate

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant catacombs

SB:
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Cabal Therapy

[metamet]

So I think the maindeck needs a couple more two drops, preferrable of the same color. I am leaning toward another cantrip, but Roots still wants to find its way in. Off the top of my head, the following are worth considering (albeit most of them wouldn't be worth running):

Wall of Roots
Wall of Blossoms
Spellstutter Sprite
Tarmogoyf
Cloud of Fairies

Any one have any other ideas? Now that we're playing with black, maybe there are some two drops there.

I'd consider cutting a Manipulate Fate and a land for this slot. We need more bodies on board once the Food Chain hits.

[nevilshute]

So I think the maindeck needs a couple more two drops, preferrable of the same color. I am leaning toward another cantrip, but Roots still wants to find its way in. Off the top of my head, the following are worth considering (albeit most of them wouldn't be worth running):

Wall of Roots
Wall of Blossoms
Spellstutter Sprite
Tarmogoyf
Cloud of Fairies

Any one have any other ideas? Now that we're playing with black, maybe there are some two drops there.

I'd consider cutting a Manipulate Fate and a land for this slot. We need more bodies on board once the Food Chain hits.

I'm running a 2/2 split of Baleful Strix and Wall of Blossoms. I personally think those two are the best two-drops. I'm still running two Mulldrifter so I'm not really looking for more than four two-drops. Wall of Roots is decent, but I prefer cantripping myself. An alternative to WoR I found is: Devoted Druid.

A couple of other potential two-drops I've come upon are: Augury Owl, Arctic Merfolk (to bounce a Cantrip creature) or perhaps even Bramblesnap as an alternative win-con though that seems too cute.

Edit: a couple of other ones I've come across: Quirion Sentinel and Ingenious Thief

[metamet]

Thanks for the ideas nevilshute!

Upon further consideration and testing, we're going to add two Wall of Blossoms to the list. Here's what I'm currently running:

MAIN:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Shardless Agent
3 Misthollow Griffin
3 Fierce Empath
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 AEthersnipe
1 Griselbrand
2 Vendilion Clique

1 Sylvan Library
4 Food Chain

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Manipulate Fate

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant catacombs

SB:
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Cabal Therapy


Anyone out there actively playing this deck right now? I took a break from it, but I think the currently list is pretty tuned and I'd like to have more hands on deck. :)

[grokh]

Hi,

I'm playing this deck since a long time and I think it's necessary to have a 2nd NO plan.

But, contrarly to metamet, I want to have this other plan maindeck

Why ?

If you got only 4 Food chain main deck, you'll need 4 cards to win.

If you have a transformal Natural order SB plan, after SB you'll still need 4 cards to win.

That's why we need to combine the 2 plans and be up to 8 cards to win.

Here's the list I made :

MAIN
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs

4 Food Chain
4 Natural Order
2 Ancestral Knowledge

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Maelstrom Wanderer
1 Progenitus
1 Worldspine Wurm

1 Æthersnipe
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Fierce Empath
2 Mulldrifter
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Shardless Agent
2 Wall of Blossoms
3 Misthollow Griffin

2 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Manipulate Fate

SB
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
3 Spell Pierce
3 Moment's Peace
1 Gilded Drake
1 Shriekmaw

I'm gonna explain some of my choices now.

Why have I put Maelstrom wanderer and Worldspine wurm and not just 1 Progenitus ?

Because, with only 1 Progenitus as NO-target, the following situation happened often : got Natural order + Progenitus in hand. And the only card for putting Progenitus from hand to library is Brainstorm.

Having more than 1 NO-target seemed necessary

Maelstrom wanderer : it's a 7/5 Cascade Cascade Haste body, this is just a 3 spells-in-one because when you cast it you'll get 2 other spells free ! The bonus of giving haste to everybody (himslef too !) is just really good too. It allows you when you cast it with infinite mana to block AND attack each turn, cos your Misthollow griffin will now have haste :
1) your turn : attack with griffins, remove em put em back
2) opponent's turn : block with griffins, remove em during damage phase
3) your turn : play griffin then back to 1)

Shardless agent : it's just one of the best Planechase 2012 addings, it's a 2/2 and it'll Cascade, so 2 spells-in-one

Worldspine wurm : a big 15/15 Trample body. He got no protections but even if your opponent comes to get rid of it, it'll be certtainly with Swords to plowshares and you'll have get 15 life. He's a good NO-target and NO-enabler too.
Because you can do the following :
- cast NO, sacrifice Worldspine wurm, you'll get 3 5/5 Trample Wurm tokens and Worldspine wurm 2nd ability will trigger and he's back in your library. NO resolves, Worldspine wurm back on the board ! For :g::g::2:, 3 5/5 Trample + 1 15/15 Trample
- cast NO, sacrifice Worldspine wurm, you'll get 3 5/5 Trample Wurm tokens. NO resolves, search for a Maelstrom wanderer, you got 3 5/5 Trample Haste + 1 7/5 Haste and go for a 22 damages strike !

AEthersnipe : he's here to help if you haven't infinite mana from the Food chain + Misthollow griffin combo.
He can be cascaded by Maelstrom wanderer too, bouncing it for 2 more Cascades !

Deathrite shaman : played for its :g: ability, if your Misthollow griffin get countered, just exile it and he'll be back !

Ancestral knowledge : it's initially here to find a Food chain and exile Misthollow griffin from top 10 cards of your library if needed but it can now serve to prepare your top 10 cards for the Cascade Cascade of the Maelstrom wanderer too !

PS : My SB is not up to date.

[.Ix]

From this site
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9556&iddeck=69728


Creatures [33]
1 Aethersnipe
1 Angel of Serenity
1 Elderscale Wurm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Isperia, Supreme Judge
1 Progenitus
1 Thragtusk
1 Worldspine Wurm
1 Worldspine Wurm
2 Mulldrifter
2 Wall of Omens
3 Fierce Empath
3 Misthollow Griffin
3 Raven Familiar
3 Wall of Blossoms
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch


Instants [2]
2 Enlightened Tutor

Enchantments [6]
3 Dream Halls
3 Food Chain

Lands [19]
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Savannah
2 Tundra
2 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island


First place out of 74, best placing this deck has had so far, I believe! So it uses Dream Halls as a secondary engine to cheat, and 8 mana dorks to ramp. I'm pretty sure the fatties can be easily replaced. I don't want to spend for premium standard cards like Thragtusk, haha... Also, I have no idea what the second Worldspine Wurm is supposed to be. It could be the card that allows the infinite mana instant kill.

[metamet]

Congrats on the win! I top 4'd a 30 man a week ago with my last list (+1 more Tropical Island main, making 61 cards).

Your build seems less controllsh than the black splash, or even a list with counterspells. What does your typical game look like? And how to you like Dream Halls?

And I like the Angel of Serenity. It's something I've thought about but haven't played with yet, as I haven't tracked how often I have creatures in my GY worth salvaging, or how often my opponent has creatures on board I need to remove. This would be a pretty stellar answer to Maverick, however...

[.Ix]

This isn't my deck, I just saw it on The Council and thought I'd post it here. I have never tested the deck so I can't say anything about Dream Halls, unfortunately, but it looks like it worked very well for him!

[metamet]

I've been placing well with my last build, top fouring the last three tournaments I've played in (16-36 players each).

I've included a Wurmcoil Engine in the sideboard against Burn, Goblins and other aggro decks.

Not quite sure what else there is to tweak, as it's been performing sublimely. I have considered writing another article on it, but I haven't gotten around to it yet since we recently launched some new software over at QS. It's a pricing sell/buylist aggregator - there's a free side, but Insiders have access to other aspects of it. This is the url: http://mtg.gg

Anywho, here's my current list. I think it's a big step above the UG version I was rocking for a long while, as Strix and Deathrite are phenomenal.

MAIN:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Shardless Agent
3 Misthollow Griffin
3 Fierce Empath
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 AEthersnipe
1 Griselbrand
2 Vendilion Clique

1 Sylvan Library
4 Food Chain

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Manipulate Fate

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant catacombs

SB:
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Wurmcoil Engine

[Koby]

With both Cabal Therapy and cantrips in the deck, do you think Gitaxian Probe would a useful inclusion? Similarly, since this deck looking for specific combo cards rather than fixing a hand -- Ponder is better for combo decks rather than Brainstorm. I am not saying to play less than 4 Brainstorm, but maximizing Ponders would likely help too.

[metamet]

All interesting points.

I think Git Probe would work well, but the one drawback that this deck has compared to other combo decks is that it requires bodies to be on the field in order to go off. I currently run Vendilion Clique as a semi-replacement to Git Probe, as it not only enables a clear path and shows me my opponent's hand, but it also doubles as a body that can Chain into Misthollow Griffin immediately.

I run Therapies in the side as I didn't find them very helpful main. If we found room for main Git Probes, it'd make our sideboard Therapies even more appealing. But what would cut? Hm.

And you also bring up more Ponders, which Git Probe would be fighting for slots with. The number of Ponders is also anchored by the fact that we need bodies, and Shardless Agent is as close as we can get to having a Ponder on a stick. :)

Thoughts?

[grokh]

Hi metamet,

I saw you run Ponder, i think it's for finding your Food chain ?

I found a good tutor for the Food chain (or anything else too) : Lim-dul's vault !

As, you play UB, it sure won't be a problem for you, and you'll never lose too much life.

I run 4 Force of will + 2 Misdirection, how can i know if i'm not running too much counterspells ? How to know if 4 Force of will would be enough ?

I'm running 4 Deathrite shaman + 4 Birds of paradise, how to know if i'm not running too much mana dorks ?

Thx for explanations

Grokh

[metamet]

Ah yes, Lim-Duls Vault! I bought a bunch of these when they were $.40 and Mystical Tutor got banned... then sold most of them for $5. I wonder if I still have a few around, because this card would fit the bill quite well. I'll play around with it.

I found that having the threat of counterspells is enough to change the way some people play against you. I have been happy with four FoW maindeck as my primary countersuite, with some Cliques as a way of ensuring the path is clear. I bring in the Cabal Therapies in replacement for the FoWs some matchups, as people are still afraid of the threat of a FoW.

For mana dorks, it's important to make sure you aren't hitting too many lategame dead cards. BoP gets worse the later you draw it, whereas Shaman is almost always good. Are you still running the MD Natural Order package? If so, your build is a little bit different than mine, but I feel like I have a good amount of mid and lategame draws with the way things currently are. It eliminates explosiveness a bit, but it allows for consistency.

[grokh]

Ah yes, Lim-Duls Vault! I bought a bunch of these when they were $.40 and Mystical Tutor got banned... then sold most of them for $5. I wonder if I still have a few around, because this card would fit the bill quite well. I'll play around with it.

I found that having the threat of counterspells is enough to change the way some people play against you. I have been happy with four FoW maindeck as my primary countersuite, with some Cliques as a way of ensuring the path is clear. I bring in the Cabal Therapies in replacement for the FoWs some matchups, as people are still afraid of the threat of a FoW.

For mana dorks, it's important to make sure you aren't hitting too many lategame dead cards. BoP gets worse the later you draw it, whereas Shaman is almost always good. Are you still running the MD Natural Order package? If so, your build is a little bit different than mine, but I feel like I have a good amount of mid and lategame draws with the way things currently are. It eliminates explosiveness a bit, but it allows for consistency.

Hi,

Concerning Birds of paradise, it's because they can produce :b: mana, useful to cast Baleful strix

Deathrite shaman can be a dead card, without fetchland in gy. It is a dead card when you've no :b: mana open, cos our creatures are often exiled, never in a gy and we rarely kill/counter opponent's creature for its green ability.
So, the ability I use the most is the :b: one and as i need :b: mana for it, Birds of paradise provide it.

For the Natural order package, I don't run it MD anymore because I think we cannot make our opponent believe our deck is a NO RUG one. With Wall of blossoms/Baleful strix it can't be a NO RUG deck, your opponent won't never believe it ...
Another reason, i've noticed there some amount of creatures we must'nt slow down for the Food chain plan stability, i think it's around 20 creatures maybe. And packing NO reduces this amount so the Food chain plan is less stable with it...

BUT I keep my NO plan as a transformal SB plan, cos your opponent never expect you to use NO in G2 and it becomes pretty strong. I generally remove 4 FoW + 2 Misdirection against non-combo decks for 3 NO + 1 Progenitus + 1 Worldspine wurm + 1 SB card against the MU

But i'm still not sure about NO plan having to be MD or in transformal SB ...

Concerning Lim-dul's vault, it's always been a must-have when no Food chain in starting hand cos it's an ABSOLUTE tutor, it can't fizzle, you're ensured at 100% to find what you're searching for. We calculated the general life loss for finding a Food chain and it's around 1 or 2 life, rarely more !

I wonder if i'd play Shardless agent, i feel it too much random ... But it's sure that with Lim-dul's vault, you can Cascade really awesome !

Here's my current list :
// NAME : Food chain NO v2
// CREATOR : grokh (magic-ville.com)
// FORMAT : Legacy

Main
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs

4 Food Chain
2 Lim-Dûl's Vault

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Griselbrand
1 Æthersnipe
2 Baleful Strix
2 Fierce Empath
2 Mulldrifter
3 Misthollow Griffin
4 Wall of Blossoms

2 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Manipulate Fate

Sideboard
SB: 1 Terastodon
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 1 Worldspine wurm
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Moment's Peace
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Natural Order

[metamet]

+2 Baleful Strix, -2 Wall of Blossoms (or Mulldrifters).

Strix is absurdly good and I would play 10 of them if I could. It's the only form of removal the deck has and it fits with our plan of Food Chaining up. Although it requires two colors, that limitation hardly offsets its benefits.

I'll be testing LDV this week.

[gottfrid]

Ok, so I'm rocking this on MTGO right now. I quite desperately need sideboard suggestions though, as I just can't think of what to put in there. It seems to me that we either have answers in the deck already (since I maindeck the decays).. cards that are bomby enough to turn common matchups around on their own is what I'm looking for.

For reference my current list is:

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 inquisition of kozilek
3 manipulate fate
3 abrupt decay
4 force of will

4 baleful strix
4 deathrite shaman
3 misthollow grffin
3 fierce empath
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
1 consecrated sphinx

4 food chain
1 sylvan library

3 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou
1 island
1 swamp
1 forest
4 polluted delta
3 misty rainforest
3 verdant catacombs

SB:
1 abrupt decay
1 sylvan library
2 jace beleren
2 spell pierce
1 trinket mage
1 meekstone
1 relic of progenitus
1 grafdigger's cage
1 pithing needle
2 ravenous trap
1 repeal
1 inquisition of kozilek

A you can see, the SB is random and quite bad... I would also like to know what peoples take on the aethersnipe / griselbrand is.. I would like to try it own but grizzly is a little too expensive but mana and $$$ wise I think. Does he win you guys a lot of games?

[grokh]

+2 Baleful Strix, -2 Wall of Blossoms (or Mulldrifters).

Strix is absurdly good and I would play 10 of them if I could. It's the only form of removal the deck has and it fits with our plan of Food Chaining up. Although it requires two colors, that limitation hardly offsets its benefits.

I'll be testing LDV this week.

I just did a tournament yesterday with my list and i never needed my 2 Misdirection, 4 Force of will have most of the time been enough ! So I think i'm gonna free 2 slots, for 2 Coiling oracle because of the free land drop possibility.

It's sure 4 Birds of paradise + 4 Deathrite shaman is too much too, i was so bored when i drew a Birds of paradise during combo ...

I'll sure do 4 Birds + 2 Shaman/4 Shaman + 2 Birds dunno yet ..., that will allow me to put more Baleful strix

Wall of blossoms saved me games, when i had 4 Wall of blossoms and my opponent a 3/4 Tarmogoyf + a 4/4 Thrun, the last troll !!

And it was the evening, I was tired and haven't seen i had Griffins in exile for block and lost some games :cry:

[Obould]

Hi,

This is my first post to this forum so please be kind to me =)

Here is my UG-list:

// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest
3 Island

// Creatures
3 Misthollow Griffin
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Fierce Empath
1 AEthersnipe
2 Mulldrifter
2 Wall of Roots
1 Griselbrand
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Deathrite Shaman

// Spells
4 Food Chain
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Manipulate Fate
1 Sylvan Library
2 Misdirection

// Sideboard
1 Tarmogoyf
2 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Dismember
3 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle

This list has worked quite well in my small local tournaments. 2 Misdirections have been great because there is a lot of BGx lists with abrupt decays and misdirection is the best answer to them. Also it is nice to make them discard a card from thoughtseize or IOK especially if you have a griffin to pitch. This deck also has a plan b, if they hates the combo for example discard/counter food chain + surgical/extirpate it. I have won many games beating opponent with tarmos, mulldrifters and griffins, and jittes from side. Deathrite shaman has been an all star, so I think I add some more and cut few noble hierarchs (I won a match couple of days ago in a long game when I managed to return a griffin to block opponent's tarmos and attack with another griffin). I could also add black to get full use from shamans and if your tests with lim duls vault are promising, I'll test them also.

Wall of Roots is sometimes nice, but sometimes kinda meh. The last match I played I won because of wall of roots from top deck and I managed to combo off just before opponent could kill me. Krosan grips are in side just because my meta has Nic Fit with humility and MUD (against those naturalize could work, but it is nice to have split second sometimes).

[metamet]

I'll be testing the LDVs tonight. I cut two Ponders (down to one now) in order to squeeze them in, but the cut makes sense when I find myself saving the Ponders for late game digging anyway. I've top foured the last three tournaments I've played with my current list (sans the LDVs), so, assuming I don't have a string of bad luck tonight, I should be have a decent idea of how I feel about em.

I will tell you, though, that I am excited about the card. :) There's something fun about playing a card people have to read (Manipulate Fate, Griffin, LDV)

Obould,

Definitely consider the black splash. Deathrite Shamans and Baleful Strix are just too good to not play, especially since both of them work so well with our strategy.

I played Goyfs in the side for a while, but I decided against that strategy for the time being. It's completely possible to beat down with Griffins and friends (and Deathrite's ability) if the FC plan doesn't work, and while the Goyfs were nice to have for a body, they proved to be a bit too "all in" for my tastes, changing the gameplan as soon as it was in your hand.


grokh,

Definitely go 4 Shaman, 2 Birds. Not sold on the Birds yet, but they definitely have a utility. And make sure to cut room for the Strixes. I agree that the Misdirections main a little too much, like you said, but I don't know how I feel about Coiling Oracle. I've played the card and never liked it... but your mileage may vary. You could also cut any number of Wall of Roots for some Ponders or Sylvan Library, as four is pretty heavy. I run two, but I could see running three paying off, as it's never a *bad* card, especially when prepping time and bodies for the


gottfrid,

I don't know much about the MTGO metagame, but this deck seems just fine to run without Forces. :)

For your sideboard, consider some of my favorites:

Cabal Therapy
Wurmcoil Engine (fetch with Empath)
Maelstrom Pulse (for Jaces)

Re: Grissly and AEthersnipe - I love it. Sometimes I want to cut it for slots, but then I somehow win a game off of casting a turn two Food Chain, turn 3 Empath -> AEtherniping the Empath -> Empath -> Gris, win... without ever having any infinite mana a la Griffins. It's nice to have a two card + mana dork combo that can come out of the gates when the other piece isn't there. And Snipe is such a good card to grab with Empath because it bounces cards that can lock you out.

And I haven't been the biggest fan of Consecrated Sphinx in testing, as I like to resolve my fatty and win. :) If you get the Gris, I'd say cut the Sphinx and something else (maybe a Man-Fate? Hrm) to make room for the two piecer. Definitely worth it for an edge and fun trick, but it's not necessarily worth taking out a second mortgage. What's it going for on MODO right now?

[grokh]

I'll be testing the LDVs tonight. I cut two Ponders (down to one now) in order to squeeze them in, but the cut makes sense when I find myself saving the Ponders for late game digging anyway. I've top foured the last three tournaments I've played with my current list (sans the LDVs), so, assuming I don't have a string of bad luck tonight, I should be have a decent idea of how I feel about em.

I will tell you, though, that I am excited about the card. :) There's something fun about playing a card people have to read (Manipulate Fate, Griffin, LDV)

grokh,

Definitely go 4 Shaman, 2 Birds. Not sold on the Birds yet, but they definitely have a utility. And make sure to cut room for the Strixes. I agree that the Misdirections main a little too much, like you said, but I don't know how I feel about Coiling Oracle. I've played the card and never liked it... but your mileage may vary. You could also cut any number of Wall of Roots for some Ponders or Sylvan Library, as four is pretty heavy. I run two, but I could see running three paying off, as it's never a *bad* card, especially when prepping time and bodies for the


Hi,

I think i'll definitely go 4 Deathrite shaman + 2 Birds of paradise as you said. I'll cut the 2 Misdirection too. I'll sure cut 1 Wall of blossoms if you think 4 is really too much.

So i've got 5 free slots.

2 Shardless agent cos it seems very exciting with Lim-dul's vault for its cascades. (Can't wait for your tests results with LDV :rolleyes:)
2 Baleful strix as you suggested !
And for the 5th slot, I thought to 1 Thragtusk for resisting better to aggro, it's a 5/3 Body, he can attack and block easily, you'll have 5 more life + a 3/3 Beast token even if you exile it with Food chain. Only bad point, he's CCM :5: only and not :6: for being tutored by Fierce empath :frown:

When I look at all different lists i see you're almost all playing only 4 mana dorks (for acceleration/ramp) and I play 6 or 8, do I need to cut 2 more mana dorks ?

And I can't understand why just 1 Sylvan library, in just 1 slot, your chances to get it are very small so dunno if you couldn't free 1 slot ?

[Obould]

I use only 4 mana dorks just because filtering is more important than acceleration. You don't need any acceleration if you don't have any combo cards in hand ;) Also it is better to draw a filtercard in late game than a mana dork so you would get a better change to get a card you need in that situation. In my list I have 8 turn one plays: mana dorks and ponders, but I could cut two ponders for LDV if the tests are promising. If you are using natural order in main or side it is reasonable to have more manadorks to get it online as fast as possible.

Edit: Sylvan library helps a lot in a long game and it is nice to draw almost every time. But if you draw more than one of them it is useless, so a one-off is quite good (at least it works for me). And with ponders and braisntorms it is not so rare to "find".

[grokh]

I use only 4 mana dorks just because filtering is more important than acceleration. You don't need any acceleration if you don't have any combo cards in hand ;) Also it is better to draw a filtercard in late game than a mana dork so you would get a better change to get a card you need in that situation. In my list I have 8 turn one plays: mana dorks and ponders, but I could cut two ponders for LDV if the tests are promising. If you are using natural order in main or side it is reasonable to have more manadorks to get it online as fast as possible.

Edit: Sylvan library helps a lot in a long game and it is nice to draw almost every time. But if you draw more than one of them it is useless, so a one-off is quite good (at least it works for me). And with ponders and braisntorms it is not so rare to "find".

You're using 6 mana dorks too, i count your 2 Wall of roots as a mana dork/acceleration, don't you ?

[Obould]

You're using 6 mana dorks too, i count your 2 Wall of roots as a mana dork/acceleration, don't you ?

They are defensive "enablers/acceleration" :P Usually they don't make this deck any faster but helps me be alive and are dudes to get enough mana from food chain for example mulldrifter and so on. A few times the acceleration have been nice, but usually they are only 5 thoughness defenders. Also they have been some times bad and sometimes good so I think I'll cut them for a better cards like strix, wall of blossoms or something. I count one mana little dudes that gives mana as a mana dork.

[grokh]

Hi metamet,

Some returns about my tests this afternoon :
1) 4 Deathrite shaman seems too much for me, he's too conditionnal, when I draw a non-fetch land I can't have mana, I think I'm gonna split 4 Birds of paradise + 2 Deathrite shaman.

2) The :u::b: cost of Baleful strix seems problematic to me because Food chain produces X mana of any ONE color so without infinite mana I often need to exile 2 creatures for having X :u: manas + Y :b: manas for casting the Baleful strix.

But maybe the 2) is very linked to the 1), I don't know yet.

It would be easier if we were playing mono-colored creatures I think.

[metamet]

Went 3-0 then submitted to a friend for the last round (who was 2-1) instead of playing so we could both cash out. I ended up being the only 3-0 going into round four, which I thought was odd with a 12 man tourney. Anywho!

Played Storm the first round. Nothing terribly exciting happened. The Cabal Therapies were all stars post board, blind hitting Dark Rit one game and LED the other, then flashing back to nail a tutor.

Round two I played against UB Tezzeret. His The Abyss was annoying, but Strix gets there. Brought in Abrupt Decays and Maelstrom Pulse from the side and took out a Chalice on two with the Decay. :) I then ended up pinging him with a Strix or two under an Ensnaring Bridge. Note from this: if you're playing against an opponent who has FoW and Ensnaring Bridge and they pass keeping a card in their hand, it likely means it's a counter... so don't play anything (at least pre combat). :)

Round three I played WG hatebears. Got game one with redundancy. He hates me game two. I get there game three with beats and Wall of Blossoms on the ground.

I was able to cast LDV twice last night, simply because I only drew it twice... and I liked it. But I don't have any definitive evidence to say it's better, but it was certainly nice to get exactly what I needed end of my opponent's turn.

grokh,

Are you testing with other players? I have rarely found Shaman's requirement for a land in the GY to be a hindrance, especially when my opponent plays fetches too. The life gain and shocking it can do it phenomenal when you can't just outright win.

And don't worry about ramping through the Strix. You typically want to play it before you combo off, and if you need to cast it while chaining creatures, just leave a little excess mana open. :) Since we aren't playing Glimpse, there's rarely a shot when we just chain through without having a plan... unless we were playing Soul of the Harvest. :P (Which I don't think is worth it).

And I'd recommend Wurmcoil Engine over Thragtusk. Phenomenal card.

[grokh]

grokh,

Are you testing with other players? I have rarely found Shaman's requirement for a land in the GY to be a hindrance, especially when my opponent plays fetches too. The life gain and shocking it can do it phenomenal when you can't just outright win.

And don't worry about ramping through the Strix. You typically want to play it before you combo off, and if you need to cast it while chaining creatures, just leave a little excess mana open. :) Since we aren't playing Glimpse, there's rarely a shot when we just chain through without having a plan... unless we were playing Soul of the Harvest. :P (Which I don't think is worth it).

And I'd recommend Wurmcoil Engine over Thragtusk. Phenomenal card.

Hi,

Yep, I'm testing with other players, maybe do i often forgot I can exile their fetches too, dunno ...

Keeping mana for Baleful strix ? You mean exile some creatures for having :b: mana ?

Why not, but lots of my creatures are :g: or :u:, if i don't draw Strix, it's some wasted mana ... :cry:

And I often combo off full tap with my lands :laugh:

Comparing Thragtusk and Wurmcoil engine, I think Thragtusk is better, why ?
Assuming they come into play, not countered.

1) Assuming the most played removal in Legacy is Swords to plowshare :
If Thragtusk takes STP, you've already won 5 life (Come into play effect), you win 5 more life from STP and get a 3/3 Beast token => 10 life + 3/3 token
If Wurmcoil engine takes STP you win 6 life from STP, and you get nothing on board => 6 life

2) Assuming the 2nd most played removal in Legacy is Lightning bolt :
If Thragtusk takes Bolt, you've already won 5 life (Come into play effect), and you get a 3/3 Beast token => 5 life + 3/3 token
If Wurmcoil engine takes Bolt, nothing happens. => Nothing

3) 3rd possibility, sacrifice effect, like Liliana of the veil for example :
If Thragtusk get sacrificied, you've already won 5 life (Come into play effect), and you get a 3/3 Beast token => 5 life + 3/3 Token
If Wurmcoil engine get sacrificied, you'll get a 3/3 Deathtouch + a 3/3 Lifelink => 3/3 Deathtouch + 3/3 Lifelink

To resume, whatever how Thragtusk is removed, you 100% sure get 5 life + 3/3 Beast token, and on Wurmcoil engine, he needs to be killed for having its effect. That's why the "leaves play" condition makes Thragtusk better than Wurmcoil engine : "Leaves play" >> "Dies", most in Legacy !

Do you agree, metamet ?

PLus, but it's specific to my list, Thragtusk is a very good Natural order-target AND Natural order-sacrifice for the cost too !

I wonder why do you really want to play Baleful strix, if it's because it's a good blocker (Fly + Deathtouch), I'll answer you, there's no need to destroy the blocked creature, if you block it every turn with a Wall of blossoms, it's enough cos you play combo, you just need to buy some turns against aggro.
But that's right that Baleful strix is good for blocking Flying creatures !

Anyway, would you test on Cockatrice ? I can't find you there !

[metamet]

Unfortunately I don't play on Cockatrice (or online, for that matter... my MTGO name is being used by a few other friends, hah) due to not really having the free time/ambition to sit down at a computer in my free time. :/

I see your argument about Thragtusk and it makes sense, but I wonder how much more valuable it would be to have a Empathable lifegainer over one that you have to natural draw into?

And Strix's ability to not only block creatures but also kill them becomes very valuable when you face off against any form of Delver, Goyf (which can kill Walls a lot of the time), Ooze, Knight or hatebears. Might be a case where a 3/3 split (like Birds and Shaman) would work best for you.

I haven't had any issues with Strix's mana yet, but I have been using him as the start of a chain or waiting until I untap with the proper mana.

[Darkenslight]

I see your argument about Thragtusk and it makes sense, but I wonder how much more valuable it would be to have a Empathable lifegainer over one that you have to natural draw into?

The two that spring to mind are Platinum Angel and Celestial Force. The main problems are that one doesn't actually gain you life, and the other one doesn't until the next turn.

[grokh]

I see your argument about Thragtusk and it makes sense, but I wonder how much more valuable it would be to have a Empathable lifegainer over one that you have to natural draw into?


What you said just gave me an idea. Have to natural draw into it ?
You forgot something, Thragtusk is :g: creature so it could justify to play Natural order MD :
1) Alternate win-con MD
2) Tutor for the Thragtusk solution against aggro, Thragtusk is a blocker (5/3), gives you instantly 5 life and give another 3/3 blocker if removed. Plus, exiling him with Food chain will give you one additionnal mana, just exile the token !

Or maybe playing 2 or 3 Thragtusk is another solution ... ?

What do you think of it ?

[nevilshute]

Nice to see you guys are still working on this deck. After taking an extended break from it, I'm now back playing. Having been inspired by the recent lists I've seen in this thread I've made a few minor tweaks and am now playing:

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
2x Manipulate Fate
1x Misdirection
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Sylvan Library
4x Food Chain

4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Misthollow Griffin
3x Baleful Strix
2x Wall of Blossoms
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Fierce Empath
2x Shardless Agent
1x Aethersnipe
1x Griselbrand
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Lands
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Spell Pierce
1x Flusterstorm
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Thragtusk
1x Massacre Wurm

Biggest difference, I think, is the choice to run a singleton JtMS. I just really like the possibilities it lends us. Other than that I have chosen to include a Massacre Wurm in the SB as an Empath target that answers Goblins and other decks that swarm the board. Alternatives would be Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite for instance. But I like that the wurm is a mana cheaper. Will be bringing the deck to one of the new year's first weekly tournaments at my LGS :)

[grokh]

Hi,

I just saw this card from Gatecrash :
http://s3.gatheringmagic.com.s3.amazonaws.com/images/sets/GTC/Fathom_Mage.jpg

It could be a big draw engine for the deck in a build with Wall of blossoms and Wall of roots because Evolve ability checks power OR toughness so a 0/5 or 0/4 creature will trigger Evolve and make us draw 1 card.

Wall of blossoms will make us draw 2 cards, and Wall of roots draw 1 card !

And, the Fathom mage will become a body for blocking creatures after !

Interesting ?

[nevilshute]

I worry that it'll be too expensive a cmc. At 4cmc we'd rather cast a griffin I think. Also, at 1/1 it dies pretty easily for a 4cmc. Seems like a really cool mechanic though :)


Hi,

I just saw this card from Gatecrash :
http://s3.gatheringmagic.com.s3.amazonaws.com/images/sets/GTC/Fathom_Mage.jpg

It could be a big draw engine for the deck in a build with Wall of blossoms and Wall of roots because Evolve ability checks power OR toughness so a 0/5 or 0/4 creature will trigger Evolve and make us draw 1 card.

Wall of blossoms will make us draw 2 cards, and Wall of roots draw 1 card !

And, the Fathom mage will become a body for blocking creatures after !

Interesting ?

[metamet]

I like the board wipe options. Massacre Wurm and Elesh Norn are both great options there. Wurm is actually hard castable, which is neat.

Haven't been impressed with any spoilers yet, although I've been trying to wrap my mind around the possibilities.

I like the Jace, as I used to run two in UG. I haven't tried him in BUG, but I could definitely see the utility and use from landing him, especially with our ability to get him on board turn three if we so like. I'll tinker around with him a bit.

Didn't play last week, per the holidays, but I anticipate playing this week a bit. No new additions or tech, but I'd love to hear what others are doing and what's working out. I think the neat thing about this deck is how customizable it is, even though we have a very sound core and base to work around.

I bet there are still some black gems we haven't considered...

I also wish we could storm combo off with Tendrils of Agony. Are there any creatures (CMC>6?) that fetch Sorceries? It just seems a little too clunky when we have Emmy instead, but it's still fun to think about.

[Koby]

I also wish we could storm combo off with Tendrils of Agony. Are there any creatures (CMC>6?) that fetch Sorceries? It just seems a little too clunky when we have Emmy instead, but it's still fun to think about.

Yes! There is!
Rune-scarred Demon

[metamet]

Yes! There is!
Rune-scarred Demon

I forgot about that guy! :D

Now the only issue we have is having enough mana to cast Tendrils... if only there were a way to translate the creature mana into sorcery enabled mana.

Demon is interesting when compared to Griselbrand. The AEthersnipe, Gris trick works the same way with Rune-scarred, except we net one more mana and don't get to draw a bunch, but rather get to find that bullet. But I don't think it'd be worth it... hm.

Interesting tool to think about, though.

[civet five]

The two that spring to mind are Platinum Angel and Celestial Force. The main problems are that one doesn't actually gain you life, and the other one doesn't until the next turn.

Ancestor's Chosen, Elderscale Wurm and Pelakka Wurm are also options, and probably all much better than Celestial Force.

[Darkenslight]

I forgot about that guy! :D

Now the only issue we have is having enough mana to cast Tendrils... if only there were a way to translate the creature mana into sorcery enabled mana.

Demon is interesting when compared to Griselbrand. The AEthersnipe, Gris trick works the same way with Rune-scarred, except we net one more mana and don't get to draw a bunch, but rather get to find that bullet. But I don't think it'd be worth it... hm.

Interesting tool to think about, though.

Priest of Gix springs to mind...

[leegoo]

Priest of Gix springs to mind...

You could possibly use one of the "free" creatures to make the mana for tendrils (palinchron / great whale)

but wouldn't you just be better off tutoring maga with demon though?

[grokh]

Hi,

I just saw this card from Gatecrash spoiler :
http://nsa32.casimages.com/img/2013/01/01/130101072030903185.jpg

I think it could really fit in our decks, it's a free creature and the :r: mana provided could be use for evoking a Ingot chewer for ramping much more !

But, I'm not sure on free creatures like that, cos if you draw em and no need mana, you'll be temptated by keeping it in hand for the good moment.

I think Wall of roots is maybe better cos he provides mana AND block lots of creatures by it's 0/5 body !

[nevilshute]

If we wanted to have the opportunity to storm for the win then why not choose a cheaper option than Tendrils seeing as we're going to have infinite storm counters anyway? Thinking Brain Freeze or even Grapeshot although that would be sub-optimal due to the red mana.

I don't really like having to depend on non-Food Chain mana in order to win so I think I'll steer clear of any storm shenanigans. Alternatively there's always my old friend Maga, Traitor to Mortals if you want to one-shot for the win ;)

[metamet]

Not a fan of Burning-Tree Emissary, as it's basically a worse Cloud of Fairies. :)

I suppose the thought of Storming out is more novel than it is actually a good idea, since Emmy is just better all around.

[grokh]

Hi,

I had some new ideas
1) Baleful strix

For me, the main utility of Baleful strix is to block flying creatures like Delver of secrets/Vendilion clique and kill em, isn't it ?

BUT, i just found out a new creature which fits much in our deck and without needing a :b: splash ...

Here's the discovery : Cloudthresher.

Why is it awesome against flying threats ?
- It has Flash, you can surprize your opponent with it
- It has Evoke, if you need some mana advantage with the Food chain : -:4: manas (Evoke) +:7: manas (FC) -> +:3: manas ramp ! (the same than a Mulldrifter : -:3: manas (Evoke) +:6: manas (FC) -> +:3: manas ramp too)
- It's a 7/7 Reach body, that's really not a weak creature, so it's like a Deathtouch for blocking a Tarmogoyf (You spoke about deahtouch quality against Tarmogoyf/Knight of the reliquary), if not evoked he'll block all eventual following flyers without dying
- It'll deal 2 damage to each flying creature, enough to instant kill all flying in Legacy (Delver/Clique ...)
- It costs :6: manas, can be tutored by Fierce empath
- It can be tutored by Natural order too
- It deals damage to your opponent too when entering

2) the second idea comes from the 1st, why not building around a Natural order + Fierce empath toolbox ?
We could have Terastodon (artifacts, enchantments etc ...), Cloudthresher (flying threats), Pelakka wurm (for low life situations) and we could imagine much more.

Plus, Natural order could bring us more kill solutions, by Worldspine wurm in my build for example.
So we pass from 4 Food chain to 4 Food chain + X Natural order as win-cons (in my case X=3)

Thoughts ?

[nevilshute]

Finally brought this deck to a tournament again and it was an over all positive experience. It was a 40-man tournament at my LGS with a Swiss, six-round tournament structure. I ended up going 4-2 and missing out on prizes.

Rnd 1: vs Death and Taxes: Won 2-0
This was against one of the best players at my LGS and the best Death and Taxes pilot I've ever met (Thomas Enevoldsen, in case you're a Death and Taxes enthusiast) so I was quite nervous to be drawn against him. Game 1: while we were shuffling he asked why I wasn't playing Food Chain anymore. I didn't want to give away that I actually was and it would prove important as he played a Phyrexian Revoker on turn 2 and, having only seen a couple of blue duals and a Deathrite Shaman on my side of the table, he named Jace, the Mind Sculptor. He wasn't able to apply much pressure for about 3 more turns and I comboed off. Game 2: Abrupt Decay took care of an Ethersworn and I was able to combo off again through Thalia.

Rnd 2: vs Birthing Pod: Lost 1-2
This was a little odd. I was paired against a guy playing a Modern deck. There's a Modern PTQ this week and the guy - who was a very skillful player - was there to practice. I narrowly took game 1 getting Griselbrand and three Griffins down. Game 2 I end up losing after a costly error in judgement early on: I have an Abrupt Decay in hand as well as 1 Force of Will and a blue cards and Food Chain and Manipulate Fate. Turn 2 he plays an Ethersworn Canonist. Almost instinctively I Force it. Almost as soon as I've announced it, I look at my Abrupt Decay and regret wasting my Force. Three turns later I have four lands, a Baleful Strix on the board and 3 griffins exiled and a Food Chain, Vendilion Clique, Fierce Empath and... my Abrupt Decay in hand. I play Food Chain tapping 3 of my 4 lands. In response he Path to Exiles my strix. If I had kept my Force for the PtE I would have gone off then and there. Instead I'm forced to pass the turn and he Harmonic Slivers my Food Chain away. A couple of turns later he combos off. Game 3 I lose, again from a mistake as I Vendilion Clique and fail to spot that he has both Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Deceiver Exarch in hand. Instead I choose his Harmonic Sliver and I lose when he untaps. This was the 3rd turn of time. I was of course upset with my misplay and it was more or less down to unfamiliarity with the cards I was up against and feeling stressed out a bit as we were in time. But take nothing away from my opponent who played his deck expertly.

Rnd 3: vs. GW Modern deck: Won 2-0
Another guy there to prep for modern ptq. Unlike my previous opponent this guy's deck was severely underpowered to fight a legacy deck and I took both games relatively painlessly.

Rnd 4: vs. Dredge: Lost 1-2
This was the make-or-break game and, unfortunately I lost. I'm not terribly familiar playing against Dredge and the pilot is quite skillful. I lost game 1 without much of a fight. Game 2 I won, hosing him with 1x Relic of Progenitus, 2x Surgical Extractions as well as dropping 2x Deathrite Shamans. Game 3 I mulled to six and kept a questionable hand of 2x DRShaman, 1x Ponder and 3 fetchlands on the draw. My opponent goes City of Brass into Cabal Therapy naming... Deathrite Shaman. I never recovered and he took it.

Rnd 5: vs. Maverick: Won 2-1
Game 1 I mulled to 4 on the play and saw: Force of Will, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Manipulate Fate. Not wanting to go down further and feeling quite deflated I kept and said 'go'. He plays land -> Noble Hierarch, go. I draw: Force of Will. Go. He plays land and tries to resolve Thalia. I Force, pitching one of my Brainstorms. He says go. I draw, still no land, but a Misthollow Griffin. Go. He plays a Qasali PM and I force pitching my griffin. Next turn I actually get a land - basic island. I pass and he doesn't get anything, attacking me down to 18 with his hierarch. I draw, brainstorm and I actually recover from here to take the game. I lose game 2 and we get into an epic game 3 that I was certain I would lose at one point but double Dread of Night eventually gets me there.

Rnd. 6: vs RUG Delver: Won 2-1
Playing against a friend of mine I mulled to 5 and lost game 1. Post board I was in much better shape going - 1x force, 1x misdirection, 1x Aethersnipe and 1x Griselbrand; + 3x Abrupt Decay and 1x Relic of Progenitus. My 3x Baleful Strix and 2 Wall of Blossoms really are awesome against RUG and comboed off in both game 2 and 3 (though in one of the games I had reached my "critical mass" turn where I had to go off or I'd die to goyf + flipped delver).

All in all: Deathrite Shaman is down right great for us, and having black means access to some great sideboard options. Abrupt Decay really means that the worst hosers against us historically (Revoker, Canonist) are just not that scary anymore. One thing I'd like to think about is to roll with some Ancient Tombs again. Rarely was I able to go off until turn 4 or 5 and that feels slow, especially against other combo decks.

Here's the list I ran:

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
2x Manipulate Fate
1x Misdirection

4x Food Chain
1x Sylvan Library
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Misthollow Griffin
3x Baleful Strix
2x Wall of Blossoms
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Shardless Agent
2x Fierce Empath
1x Aethersnipe
1x Griselbrand
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Forest
1x Island
1x Swamp

Sideboard:
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Dread of Night
2x Spell Pierce
1x Flusterstorm
1x Thragtursk
1x Massacre Wurm

[StoneColdEffy]

This list came 5th in a 52 man event in Japan.

http://www.happymtg.com/decks/view/D040574

[metamet]

This list came 5th in a 52 man event in Japan.

http://www.happymtg.com/decks/view/D040574
Here's the list, for reference:


Main Deck Sideboard
4 "霧深い雨林/ Misty Rainforest"
7 "冠雪の島/ Snow-Covered Island"
7 "冠雪の森/ Snow-Covered Forest"
18 Lands

2 "极楽鸟/ Birds of Paradise"
4 "貴族の教主/ Noble Hierarch"
4 "花の壁/ Wall of Blossoms"
2 "ヴェンディリオン三人衆/ Vendilion Clique"
3 "激情の共感者/ Fierce Empath"
4 "霧虚ろのグリフィン/ Misthollow Griffin"
4 "熟考漂い/ Mulldrifter"
2 "誘惑蒔き/ Sower of Temptation"
2 "死儀礼のシャーマン/ Deathrite Shaman"
1 "収穫の魂/ Soul of the Harvest"
1 "霊気撃ち/ AEthersnipe"
1 "グリセルブランド/ Griselbrand"
1 "引き裂かれし永劫,エムラクール/ Emrakul, the Aeons Torn"
1 "聖別されたスフィンクス/ Consecrated Sphinx"
32 Creatures

4 "Force of Will"
2 "誤った指図/ Misdirection"
4 "食物连锁/ Food Chain"
10 Spells


60 Mainbord Cards

3 "大祖始の遺産/ Relic of Progenitus"
1 "墓掘りの檻/ Grafdigger's Cage"
1 "トーモッドの墓所/ Tormod's Crypt"
2 "狼狽の嵐/ Flusterstorm"
2 "クローサの掌握/ Krosan Grip"
2 "三なる宝球/ Trinisphere"
2 "花の絨毯/ Carpet of Flowers"
2 "仕組まれた爆薬/ Engineered Explosives"
15 Sideboard Cards


Interesting return to the UG shell. Curious as to the lack of cantrips, but I'd like to see how it runs. Soul of the Harvest was a curiosity before, but it felt like you need Food Chain online already for it to be worthwhile.

[metamet]

And Simic Charm might have home in a UG shell, as the Unsummon and Hexproof are both valuable modes we sometimes need:



http://i.imgur.com/LeV06.jpg
Choose one - Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn; permanents you control gain hexproof until end of turn; or return target creature to its owner's hand.

[StoneColdEffy]

So I'm interested in this deck. Wondering what are the merits/disadvantages of the UG, BUG and Recruiter versions? Also what are the deck's good MUs and bad MUs? And does this deck actually have a chance of winning if you don't draw Food Chain?

[Koby]

So I'm interested in this deck. Wondering what are the merits/disadvantages of the UG, BUG and Recruiter versions? Also what are the deck's good MUs and bad MUs? And does this deck actually have a chance of winning if you don't draw Food Chain?

Complexity, consistency, and card availability.

The first is governed by how many "alternate" paths the deck can take to win.
The second is governed by how the deck digs through its important pieces. Imperial Recruiter, cantrips, and cantrip creatures (i.e., Elvish Visionary / Soul of the Harvest) achieve.
The third is obviously dependent on your collection.

[metamet]

So I'm interested in this deck. Wondering what are the merits/disadvantages of the UG, BUG and Recruiter versions? Also what are the deck's good MUs and bad MUs? And does this deck actually have a chance of winning if you don't draw Food Chain?

I firmly believe that the BUG list is the most dynamic and consistent list available. It relies less on Food Chain's resolution for a win than the others do and gives us access to the likes of Abrupt Decay.

You can win with Deathrites and Griffins, which most people don't actually expect with constant guard against FC. It also offers the ability to win out of nowhere (with style) without requiring Show and Tell.

Sleeve it up and do some gold fishing. Its one of my favorite decks to pilot and allows for tweaking and experimenting with new cards. Although I'm convinced some aren't worth running, you still can tweak to your liking. :)

[StoneColdEffy]

I firmly believe that the BUG list is the most dynamic and consistent list available. It relies less on Food Chain's resolution for a win than the others do and gives us access to the likes of Abrupt Decay.

You can win with Deathrites and Griffins, which most people don't actually expect with constant guard against FC. It also offers the ability to win out of nowhere (with style) without requiring Show and Tell.

Sleeve it up and do some gold fishing. Its one of my favorite decks to pilot and allows for tweaking and experimenting with new cards. Although I'm convinced some aren't worth running, you still can tweak to your liking. :)

What's your most updated list? And how do you feel about inclusion of Natural Order and/or Dream Halls for more ways to go off?

EDIT: Card avaiability isn't a problem. My main issue is I want to know how this fairs against other decks and what its merits are over say, other combo decks.

[nevilshute]

What's your most updated list? And how do you feel about inclusion of Natural Order and/or Dream Halls for more ways to go off?

EDIT: Card avaiability isn't a problem. My main issue is I want to know how this fairs against other decks and what its merits are over say, other combo decks.

I've played extensively with Natural Order, both in the main deck and as a sideboard plan in this deck but never with Dream Halls. NO gives the deck more explosiveness but lessens consistency imo and I eventually opted to drop it. You can check my most recent list further up on this page.

When I played this deck originally just as UG it was quite vulnerable to decks that put a fast clock on you, such as burn decks, RUG/BUG Delver decks and Maverick. It would also in general be quite vulnerable to sideboard hosing such as from Ethersworn Canonist and Phyrexian Revoker. But with the inclusion of black and cards such as Baleful Strix and Deathrite Shaman we have a much better way to prolong the game versus a flipped delver or a Knight of the Reliquary, and Abrupt Decay gives us a multi tool versus hosers.

[metamet]

What's your most updated list? And how do you feel about inclusion of Natural Order and/or Dream Halls for more ways to go off?

EDIT: Card avaiability isn't a problem. My main issue is I want to know how this fairs against other decks and what its merits are over say, other combo decks.

My currently list:

MAIN:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Shardless Agent
3 Misthollow Griffin
3 Fierce Empath
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 AEthersnipe
1 Griselbrand
2 Vendilion Clique

1 Sylvan Library
4 Food Chain

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Lim-Duls Vault
2 Manipulate Fate

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant catacombs

SB:
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Wurmcoil Engine



The LDVs are still up for testing, but I have liked them when I've had them. No conclusions there.

For the NO plan, I used to run it in the sideboard when I played UG. It could fit in the current SB depending on your meta, but I haven't missed it all that much lately. The Wurmcoil is in there as an Empath target against aggro, Gobbies and even Burn, and I've been a big fan of it.

[metamet]

Just thought of another alt win that's fetchable by Fierce Empath:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090205184203/mtg/images/f/fe/Extractordemon.jpg

I wouldn't jump on this as actually being good, but with Food Chain and Griffin, we could get past the likes of Ensnaring Bridge.

Any other enters/leaves the battlefield effects on a stick we could play with?

[MaximumC]

I ran this list in my local sanctioned Vintage scene for awhile, the only big change being that I ran Omnath as my secondary win condition. He was great because he came down early and could beat better than Tarmagoyf if I was digging, and he swings for infinite once you get Griffin going. The big problem, of course, is that he gets chump blocked.

For reference, my win package was something like this:

3x Fierce Empath
1x Aethersnipe
1x Grislebrand
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2x Omnath, Lord of Mana

I like the Extractor Demon plan. Particularly because he is good exactly when Omnath is not. Omnath is great against an empty board, such as you might encounter against Show and Tell. Extractor wins regardless of the enemy, but loses if the enemy deck contains Eldrazi, such as Show and Tell.

Interesting.



Any other enters/leaves the battlefield effects on a stick we could play with?

Your options are:

1) Lifegain.
Soul Sisters (Soul Warden, Healer of the Pride, etc) and, Angelic Chorus (infinite life, but its either a useless white weenie or a pricey enchantment that doesnt fit in this deck. The green Warden is interesting I guess.)

2) Pump.
Champion of Lambholt, now that I look at it, looks potentially even better than Omnath as a 3cc win condition. It goes infinite like Omnath, but it doesn't get blocked like him. Of course, it's also worse in isolation.
Cathat's Crusade is another expensive useless enchantment here.
Goldknight Commander, Herd Gnarr, Hamletback Goliath, Juniper Order Ranger are trash AND super expensive!

3) Creatures
Genesis Chamber makes infinite Myr. So I guess you can win after passing the turn. Hooray...?
Minion Reflector is better, makes infinite hasty Griffins. But costs 5 mana and is not a creature.

4) Damage
Warstorm Surge, Pandemonium - Wins, but is not a creature and is pricey.

5) Comedy Option
Tainted Aether- Sacrifice your whole board other than Griffin and Food Chain yaaaay

[metamet]

He also needs to be countered twice to stop, but that likely wont be an edge considering we need Food Chain to land beforehand anyway. :)

How did you adapt the list for Vintage? That's really cool!

[MaximumC]

He also needs to be countered twice to stop, but that likely wont be an edge considering we need Food Chain to land beforehand anyway. :)

How did you adapt the list for Vintage? That's really cool!

Here's a thread about it over at the mana drain: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44356.0

The biggest difference is what you are worried about in the two formats. The decks to beat in Vintage consist mainly of "Big Blue" decks that try to combo out with Tinker->Blightsteel / Vault->Key / Jace / Tendrils of Agony and protect themsleves with countermagic and duress effects; Oath decks which combo out a fattie quickly while protecting themselves the same way; Shops, which lock you out with sphere effects immediately; Dredge, which wins from the yard terrifyingly fast, and various hatebear decks like Dark Times or White Trash.

My list:

Combo Package (13)
4x Food Chain
4x Misthollow Griffin
2x Fierce Empath
1x Grislebrand
1x Aethersnipe
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Mana Dorks (9)
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Birds of Paradise
2x Wall of Roots

Other Accell (2)
1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Emerald

Lands (18)
3x Ancient Tomb
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
2x Forest
2x Island

Dig (5)
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
1x Intuiton
1x Demonic Consultation
1x Skeletal Scrying

Countermagic (9)
4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
4x Spell Pierce

Aggro Option (4)
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Omnath, Locus of Mana

SIDEBOARD

2x Sower of Temptation
3x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Steel Sabotge
3x Nature’s Claim
2x Trygon Predator
4x Null Rod

I wasn't running Deathrite Shaman because it didn't exist yet, but I think that replaces some of the mana dorks and the Oozes. I also was not running Manipulate Fate at the time.

EDIT: Post Return to Ravnica, I think I'd try something like this:

Combo Package (13)
4x Food Chain
4x Misthollow Griffin
2x Fierce Empath
1x Grislebrand
1x Aethersnipe
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Mana Dorks (8)
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Birds of Paradise
2x Wall of Roots

Other Accell (2)
1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Emerald

Lands (18)
3x Ancient Tomb
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
2x Forest
2x Island

Dig (5)
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
2x Manipulate Fate
1x Skeletal Scrying

Disruption (11)
4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
4x Spell Pierce
2x Abrupt Decay

Aggro Option (4)
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Omnath, Locus of Mana

SIDEBOARD

2x Ylixid Jailer
3x Leyline of the Void
1x Steel Sabotge
3x Nature’s Claim
2x Trygon Predator
4x Null Rod

In fact, maybe I'll give this a spin tomorrow night. You've inspired me :)

[Darkenslight]

What about Vela, the Night-Clad? Infinite life loss with Griffin and Food Chain out. The issue is obtaining the black when you're comboing out.

[StoneColdEffy]

Ok well I proxied up metamet's list but -1 Shardless Agent since I'm not a fan of 61 card lists and the Agent seemed like the easiest cut. I'll be flying to Sydney for a big legacy event this weekend (playing another deck there) but hopefully will be able to test some games with good players with this deck. I did some goldfishing right now and I like the feel of it, and Sylvan Library seems very good but I guess the life loss on it is pretty big.

[metamet]

What about Vela, the Night-Clad? Infinite life loss with Griffin and Food Chain out. The issue is obtaining the black when you're comboing out.

Could work! Black shouldn't be a problem because Griffins gives us infinite every color forever. Plus, BUG plays black. :)


Ok well I proxied up metamet's list but -1 Shardless Agent since I'm not a fan of 61 card lists and the Agent seemed like the easiest cut. I'll be flying to Sydney for a big legacy event this weekend (playing another deck there) but hopefully will be able to test some games with good players with this deck. I did some goldfishing right now and I like the feel of it, and Sylvan Library seems very good but I guess the life loss on it is pretty big.

I've taken plenty of Sylvan damage, but typically only when it wins me the game that turn. And glad to hear you've sleeved it up! Let us know what you discover in playing it!

[grokh]

Could work! Black shouldn't be a problem because Griffins gives us infinite every color forever. Plus, BUG plays black. :)

And Vela the Night-Clad is better than Maga, traitor to mortals in the infinite life loss alternate kill because it has a CCM :6: and it's fetchable by Fierce empath

And you don't always need infinite mana for Vela the Night-Clad, you can deal some point of damages to your opponent during the combo.

[metamet]

Vela and Extractor Demon seem like interesting alternative wincons, both through unconventional means. We should keep those in our back pocket for once the meta shifts toward making Emmy not simply win. :)

I won't be getting much Legacy in for a little while, likely once a month for the time being. Reason is that my girlfriend and I have been doing Muay Thai throughout the week and the class goes until 7:30 on Thursdays. Legacy starts at 7... but I still might show up and play three rounds, forfeiting the first to whoever got the bye. Who knows!

Good news is that I haven't seen much from Gatecrash that'll impact Legacy, so I don't think I'll have to prep for a big meta shift in the meantime... we'll probably go from Tues-Thurs to Mon-Wed in a few months, which will then open up my Legacy night again. :)

In the meantime, this is still my favorite pet deck and I want to keep tweaking it as much as possible, even though I won't be able to get in weekly tournaments.

[grokh]

Hi,

I just learned there was another version of Food chain decks : Food chain Elves, mono :g:

I found this decklist : http://deckbox.org/sets/207149

What do you think of it ?

[nevilshute]

Hi,

I just learned there was another version of Food chain decks : Food chain Elves, mono :g:

I found this decklist : http://deckbox.org/sets/207149

What do you think of it ?

Hiya Grokh. I knew there had been an elf/food chain deck in the past but have never read anything about it or seen deck lists. Was cool to see the list. Don't know how good it is compared to other types of elf combo decks. It's also very much a different thing than "our" food chain deck. I mean completely different.

Would be fun to try one day I guess :)

[Opaco]

Hiya Grokh. I knew there had been an elf/food chain deck in the past but have never read anything about it or seen deck lists. Was cool to see the list. Don't know how good it is compared to other types of elf combo decks. It's also very much a different thing than "our" food chain deck. I mean completely different.

Would be fun to try one day I guess :)

If you are ineterested there was an old thread for Food Chain elves, called Army of Ancients (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18445-Deck-Army-of-Ancients-aka-ElfDrazi&highlight=ancients). It played as completly a different deck, its main advantage was its ability to recover failed combo attemps and plow through the deck when it didn't have food chain as half of the deck has etb card advantage attached: Elvish Visionary, Multani's Acolyte, Sylvan Messenger, Llanowar Empath, Fierce Empath-> Brass Herald; and if the combo plan wasn'y feasible you can throw some elf lords from the sideboard and become a tribal aggro deck. However, UGx Food Chain and Elfball had superseeded it in terms of being a combo deck while the aggro plan usually didn't compensate for this.

[grokh]

Hi all,

I had a new idea for the UG builds recently !

Why not running some Lorescale coatl for benefit of all draws the deck can generate ? It provides us a body for blocking/attacking, maybe an aggro-theme

Nope ?

[grokh]

Hi,

I'm actually testing Gyre sage in the deck, with 4 Wall of blossoms and 2 Carven caryatid for helping the Evolve.

It seems really nice cos it plays the same role as Wall of roots in some lists but it allows us an aggro plan cos he often becomes 4/5 body

Thoughts ?

[nokto]

Hi,

I'm actually testing Gyre sage in the deck, with 4 Wall of blossoms and 2 Carven caryatid for helping the Evolve.

It seems really nice cos it plays the same role as Wall of roots in some lists but it allows us an aggro plan cos he often becomes 4/5 body

Thoughts ?

The big problem I usually find when playing against competitive decks is that I need consistent acceleration on turn one. I would personally never play a situational 2 drop acceleration.

I have been toying with a standard UG list with 4 Summoner's Trap (2 MD/2 SB) in order to make one sided show and tells. My list looks like the following

3 Birds of paradise
3 Deathrite Shaman

4 Wall of blossom
1 Elvish Visionary

3 Mulldrifter
3 Raven's Familiar
2 Fierce Empath

2 Summoner's Trap
4 Food Chain
3 Misthollow Griffin
2 Emrakul
1 Soul of the Harvest

4 Force of will
2 Missdirection

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

3 Mistyrainy Forest
3 Wooded Foothills
1 UR Fetchland
3 Forest
2 Island
4 Tropical Island
1 Taiga

sb

3 pyroclasm
1 AEthersnipe
3 Surgical extraction
2 Summoner's Trap
3 Nature's Claim
2 Carpet of flowers

I've won a couple of local events (15-25 people) with a similar list. 17 lands look enough for me. Thoughts?

[grokh]

The big problem I usually find when playing against competitive decks is that I need consistent acceleration on turn one. I would personally never play a situational 2 drop acceleration.

I have been toying with a standard UG list with 4 Summoner's Trap (2 MD/2 SB) in order to make one sided show and tells. My list looks like the following

3 Birds of paradise
3 Deathrite Shaman

4 Wall of blossom
2 Elvish Visionary

3 Mulldrifter
3 Raven's Familiar
2 Fierce Empath

2 Summoner's Trap
4 Food Chain
3 Sphinx
2 Emrakul

4 Force of will
2 Missdirection

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

3 Mistyrainy Forest
3 Wooded Foothills
1 UR Fetchland
3 Forest
2 Island
4 Tropical Island
1 Taiga

sb

3 pyroclasm
1 AEthersnipe
3 Surgical extraction
2 Summoner's Trap
3 Nature's Claim
2 Carpet of flowers

I've won a couple of local events (15-25 people) with a similar list. 17 lands look enough for me. Thoughts?

Why do you call Gyre sage a situational 2 drop acceleration ? If you build around it, it won't be situational, with 4 Wall of blossoms and 2 Carven caryatid, i often have a 3/4-4/5 Gyre sage. I have to point out that i'm playing with 3 Birds of paradise + 3 Gyre sage for the moment !

Gyre sage is just a better Wall of roots cos he'll often be able to produce :g::g: without disadvantage. He'll become a body too, for blocking/attacking ! He seems very useful to me cos i'm running a Natural order plan B and he helps a lot having :g::g: or making more mana under Food chain for casting the Misthollow griffin.

For your list, why don't you run more Misdirection ? With Abrupt decay in the format, it seems needed ...

Summoning trap is another technique, got to test, seems nice too, but in general, your opponent want to counter the Food chain, in my case.

What's the Sphinx, you play, you've not given the entire name ? Sphinx of Lost Truths ? Consecrated sphinx ? Another one ?

I just saw another beast for the deck, maybe today : Bringer of the Blue Dawn, dunno maybe ... ?

[nokto]

Why do you call Gyre sage a situational 2 drop acceleration ? If you build around it, it won't be situational, with 4 Wall of blossoms and 2 Carven caryatid, i often have a 3/4-4/5 Gyre sage. I have to point out that i'm playing with 3 Birds of paradise + 3 Gyre sage for the moment !

Gyre sage is just a better Wall of roots cos he'll often be able to produce :g::g: without disadvantage. He'll become a body too, for blocking/attacking ! He seems very useful to me cos i'm running a Natural order plan B and he helps a lot having :g::g: or making more mana under Food chain for casting the Misthollow griffin.

For your list, why don't you run more Misdirection ? With Abrupt decay in the format, it seems needed ...

Summoning trap is another technique, got to test, seems nice too, but in general, your opponent want to counter the Food chain, in my case.

What's the Sphinx, you play, you've not given the entire name ? Sphinx of Lost Truths ? Consecrated sphinx ? Another one ?

I just saw another beast for the deck, maybe today : Bringer of the Blue Dawn, dunno maybe ... ?

Well, it's also true that I would need to see your list in order to correctly judge Gyre Sage, but imho every creature in the deck should be good enough, or at least do something, on it's own. Gyre Sage gives 0 mana when you cast it: you already need to cast another creature and make it through counter walls to start making it useful. Is your meta too much counterspell-heavy? Maybe, as you say, Natural Order is a good reason to run it. In my case, I really feel the need of landing a T1 acceleration, and 4 Birds of Paradise weren't enough for me.

My bad, I wanted to write Griffin and my fingers typed Sphinx instead. It's already corrected in the original post, and of course I was talking about Misthollow Griffin.

Misdirection: As you mentioned, Abrupt Decay is the main reason to run this card. It's also useful against other counterspells and stuff like Hymn to Tourach. There's no real reason to have the 4 FoW 2 Misdirection configuration besides of being the standard one. It works well for me.

Summoning trap: It's actually quite easy to cast it also, so it's not a dead card if they counter Food Chain. Also, you could find yourself in a situation of T1 birds, T2 Food Chain, T3 start comboing and they try to counter your key creature. It has happened to me a couple of times. This is the most recent addition and I still have to test it seriously.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention that I run 1 Soul of the Harvest. It boosts the combo unexpectedly and it's almost a gg-creature.

[grokh]

Here's the list i'm currently running :
//Lands
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs

//Combo
4 Food Chain
4 Misthollow Griffin
2 Natural Order
1 Manipulate Fate

//Mana acceleration
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Gyre Sage

//Cantrip creatures
4 Wall of Blossoms
2 Mulldrifter
2 Carven Caryatid
2 Fierce Empath
1 Griselbrand
1 AEthersnipe

//Kills
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Progenitus
1 Vela the Night-Clad

//Protection
2 Force of Will
4 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm

SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 4 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 City of Solitude
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Force of Will

I have 4 Misdirection + 2 Force of will because of Abrupt decay but maybe should i split 4 FoW + 2 Misdi ... ?

I have 4 Misthollow griffin + 1 Manipulate fate, dunno if i can cut the Manipulate fate ?

Kills : Plan A : Emrakul OR Vela : infinite damages with Griffin or Plan B : Natural order + Progenitus

Gyre sage is useful for :
1) providing extra mana on Food chain : exile Gyre sage + take mana in response, can allow to go fast for a Griffin
2) providing :g::g: for casting Natural order
3) can be a body, because Evolve, he's often 3/4 or 4/5 to block if needed

[metamet]

Not a fan of Gyre Sage. You'll need to cast a creature after it resolves in order for it to be good enough... which seems a bit too conditional.

Took my recent BUG list to a big Legacy event this Saturday. I suppose it was 20-30 people. I top 8'd, then lost to High Tide. *sigh*

Deck still runs well. Don't think I have any updates on it aside from new foils, however. :)

[nevilshute]

Not a fan of Gyre Sage. You'll need to cast a creature after it resolves in order for it to be good enough... which seems a bit too conditional.

Took my recent BUG list to a big Legacy event this Saturday. I suppose it was 20-30 people. I top 8'd, then lost to High Tide. *sigh*

Deck still runs well. Don't think I have any updates on it aside from new foils, however. :)

Hey meta. What are you foiling? I currently have plans to get 4 foil Food Chains, but they are a little ways away. Got Japanese foil Griffins though :)

I also don't see Gyre Sage, or any other Gatecrash cards, adding to our current BUG shell.

[grokh]

Hey meta. What are you foiling? I currently have plans to get 4 foil Food Chains, but they are a little ways away. Got Japanese foil Griffins though :)

I also don't see Gyre Sage, or any other Gatecrash cards, adding to our current BUG shell.

In your shell there is no interest. I think Gyre sage is interesting in my shell with Natural order, cos he'll provide :g::g: or :g::g::g:

I don't think it's so "conditionnal" as you say, Food chain decks are often composed with at least 70-80% creatures cards so trigger Evolve should be really easy. We are a creature-based deck, it'd be really unlucky that not touch a creature for making him evolve

[grokh]

I dunno if the idea seems good or not but i just saw Cadaverous bloom.

It could be interesting in your BUG shells, as another way to exile Misthollow griffin, it would allow to throw out your lands in hand for some mana.

Nope ?

[Wincheee]

Hey guys! last saturday i play with my team a Legacy Open here,in Buenos Aires,Argentina,i play Nic fit Scapewish,and one friend played my for-the-lulz- Food chain,well...both of us made top 8! xD i dont remember the entire decklist,but i promise to u i go to post it in a couple of days.

By the way,sorry for my English,i know im sooo bad with this language xD

[Wincheee]

Here is the top 8,i played Nic fit,and my friend Food chain, decklist here:

http://www.mtgmulligan.net/2013/02/top8-decklists-metagame-legacy-y.html

[metamet]

Looks like a fun All-In-With-Creatures Food Chain list. :) Congrats to your friend!

I've always been interested in a little Enlightened Tutor, but I haven't been able to fully justify the white splash for it -- especially when I've been liking the black splash so much. Plus I like to play Force of Will, which makes it hard to go deep on creatures main. But I like it.

@nevilshute

I'm mostly foiling the combo pieces, as they're the least expensive... hah. I have Fierce Empath, Manipulate Fate, Misthollow Griffin, Wall of Blossoms and Aethersnipe in foil. I have one Food Chain, needing the other three, and I'm also in need of a foil Griselbrand. How bout yourself?

[nevilshute]

Well, as I said I've gotten some Japanese foil Griffins. Got those right when I started playing the deck. Have since then only really gotten around to getting the Manipulate Fates foiled as well as my single Aethersnipe. Am currently in the process of acquiring the Food Chains but not wanting to pay through the nose I'm preparing for a long wait for those. Will probably be looking at getting stuff like the Empaths and Blossoms along the way. Griselbrand and Emrakul... well I'm currently too cheap hehe.

On another note metamet: have you ever considered Intuition as a tutor for Food Chain? I recently got my hands on 2 Intuitions for another deck and just started thinking "maybe for Food Chain". I'm leaning towards no, as I think the deck is currently quite well poised as it is and I rarely feel like I can't find the Chains through cantrips. If we didn't have Manipulate Fate which is just a FAR superior tutor for Griffins, then maybe... anyway. Do you have any experience playing Intuitions in this deck? :)

[nokto]

Well, as I said I've gotten some Japanese foil Griffins. Got those right when I started playing the deck. Have since then only really gotten around to getting the Manipulate Fates foiled as well as my single Aethersnipe. Am currently in the process of acquiring the Food Chains but not wanting to pay through the nose I'm preparing for a long wait for those. Will probably be looking at getting stuff like the Empaths and Blossoms along the way. Griselbrand and Emrakul... well I'm currently too cheap hehe.

On another note metamet: have you ever considered Intuition as a tutor for Food Chain? I recently got my hands on 2 Intuitions for another deck and just started thinking "maybe for Food Chain". I'm leaning towards no, as I think the deck is currently quite well poised as it is and I rarely feel like I can't find the Chains through cantrips. If we didn't have Manipulate Fate which is just a FAR superior tutor for Griffins, then maybe... anyway. Do you have any experience playing Intuitions in this deck? :)

I already considered that too. My first impression is that, either you do it when you have 6 mana available in you main phase or a Surgical Extraction effect will ruin your day badly. It's not that bad if you consider it for tutoring Misthollow Griffins...

[metamet]

I've considered Intuitions, but, as mentioned, I'd be afraid of a well timed Surgical Extraction ruining our day, although not many should/would bring them in against us. If the Intuition target gets countered, we'd also be down two chances of resolving the necessary spell. :/

I have been thinking about Ancient Tombs again, though. I took them out once I went BUG, but I've been really wanting the acceleration again. Not quite sure how it'd work and which land I'd trim, but it's been on my mind.

[nevilshute]

I've considered Intuitions, but, as mentioned, I'd be afraid of a well timed Surgical Extraction ruining our day, although not many should/would bring them in against us. If the Intuition target gets countered, we'd also be down two chances of resolving the necessary spell. :/

I have been thinking about Ancient Tombs again, though. I took them out once I went BUG, but I've been really wanting the acceleration again. Not quite sure how it'd work and which land I'd trim, but it's been on my mind.

Funny you should mention Ancient Tombs as I've been feeling the same way and have just decided to re-introduce them. I'm currently running:

2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp
2x Ancient Tomb
9x Fetch

Still need to test. But have been missing the acceleration, especially against other combo decks.

[gottfrid]

Has anyone been trying glimpse of nature as a wincon, instead of empaths and 6-15 drops that do nthing pre-food chain.

It should draw at least one card early game, sometimes two. It works fine with gaea's cradle, and drawing the deck should make any dedicated wincons unnecessary.

The only real drawbacks I can see is the requirement for one more mana on the going-off turn, and opening up to cards ike spell pierce. They would've probably spent that on food chain though..

Shouldn't 3 glimpse and 2 snapcasters be just better than 3 empaths and 2 fatties?

[nevilshute]

Has anyone been trying glimpse of nature as a wincon, instead of empaths and 6-15 drops that do nthing pre-food chain.

It should draw at least one card early game, sometimes two. It works fine with gaea's cradle, and drawing the deck should make any dedicated wincons unnecessary.

The only real drawbacks I can see is the requirement for one more mana on the going-off turn, and opening up to cards ike spell pierce. They would've probably spent that on food chain though..

Shouldn't 3 glimpse and 2 snapcasters be just better than 3 empaths and 2 fatties?

Glimpse is an interesting idea. I don't like that the effect isn't optional as it could lead to awkward situations in late game scenarios. However those would probably be few and far between. I think I'll give it a go with 3 or 4 Glimpses. Don't think I'll be running the Snapcasters as I don't see enough targets and can't justify them solely for the Glimpses.

Going to try and test it out one of these days. I'm thinking I'll axe my one Jace and sylvan library for a Glimpse each. Will need to find a last card to cut though :)

[bernson]

I've been playing this deck for a while, and following this Thread for tech and development.
I just have a quick question. Once you have Food chain in play with a griffen, I sac the griffen to combo out making five mana,
in respose my opponent cast abrupt decay on food chain. Will I be able to loop infinite mana or will i just be stuck on 5?
Thanks in advance

[nevilshute]

I've been playing this deck for a while, and following this Thread for tech and development.
I just have a quick question. Once you have Food chain in play with a griffen, I sac the griffen to combo out making five mana,
in respose my opponent cast abrupt decay on food chain. Will I be able to loop infinite mana or will i just be stuck on 5?
Thanks in advance

If that happens you won't be able to create "infinite" mana. At most you'll be able to activate your Food Chain in response to the Abrupt Decay to exile any number of creatures you currently have on the battlefield.

If the Misthollow Griffin had flash, you'd be able to make infi mana in response to the Abrupt Decay being put on the stack. But seeing as it doesn't you'll need to wait until the stack is empty before you can re-cast it, meaning that the Abrupt Decay will resolve, destroying your Food Chain before you are able to cast a non-flash creature again.

[metamet]

Which is why I like EOTing Clique and using Therapies against Decay. :-)

Also been testing Spellskite in the board, especially if we're running Sol lands.

[grokh]

Hi metamet and all others Food chain players, i'm proud to show you my last acquisition, i've asked an alterator to make my Food chain altered each for a different season.

Here are my 4 seasons Food chain, painted by Morgege, a french artist !

http://nsa33.casimages.com/img/2013/03/05/130305061731181707.jpg

You can ask me more informations on the alterator if you want !

Morgege Facebook : Morgege art
Morgege website :http://www.coupdpinceau.com/morgege_art_mtg.php

Enjoy !

[metamet]

Wow. Those are beautiful.

Incredibly jealous now, especially since I started foiling my deck out and am partway through a foil Food Chain set. Yours are brilliant. :) Who did them?

[grokh]

Wow. Those are beautiful.

Incredibly jealous now, especially since I started foiling my deck out and am partway through a foil Food Chain set. Yours are brilliant. :) Who did them?

It's Morgege, a very talented french artist i personnaly know, i just edited my post.

If you play Food chain on Grand Prix Strasbourg or Bazaar of Moxen and you're in top 8, i'll lend the playset to you for your top 8 if you want !

[TerribleTim68]

I can't tell you enough how awesome I think those alters are. I would love to have some cards like that, but so far I have not been able to afford the cost on stuff like that. I love those, they look amazing. I also want to alter my playset of Hive Minds so they look like Star Trek Borg. But again, cost is out of my reach. :cry:

[grokh]

I can't tell you enough how awesome I think those alters are. I would love to have some cards like that, but so far I have not been able to afford the cost on stuff like that. I love those, they look amazing. I also want to alter my playset of Hive Minds so they look like Star Trek Borg. But again, cost is out of my reach. :cry:

Try contacting Morgege, she'll tell you her price, she's not very expensive in general, you know !

[nevilshute]

Wow! Unbelievably well done, those are :) If I hadn't just purchased my four foil Food Chains I'd consider heavily getting mine altered too.

[grokh]

I just found maybe an interesting card, by looking into a trade book of a friend :

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/5dn/26.jpg

It allows us to draw 3 cards each turn, without having to find a cantrip-creature.
Advantages :
- It's a 5/5 Trample
- you can pay :w::u::b::r::g: instead of it's mana cost then exiling it with Food chain if you need mana !
- it's unconditionnal draw
- it's blue for Force of will and Misdirection if needed

Flaw :
- Its effect begins only next turn

I looked at other Bringers, and the red one seemed interesting too :

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/5dn/62.jpg

Against aggro, you can take one of his creatures every turn, attacking with it and exiling the creature before end of your turn with Food chain
He gost the same advantages than the other one, he's 5/5 Trample, payable in pentacolors too !

Thoughts ?

[nevilshute]

As these aren't win conditions on their own such as Emrakul is I'm guessing these are for those instances where we have a Food Chain in play but no Griffin to go infinite. My thoughts, in short, are therefore: why play these over Griselbrand? We won't be playing them 'naturally', only with Food Chain and if that's the case then I'd rather be paying a mana less and getting Griselbrand (meaning we can get him down with just Fierce Empath and Aethersnipe. I know you can theoretically play them for 5 mana, but this would require a Griffin most of the time as the requirement is one of each colour and then again we're back at: why not just play Griselbrand instead.

This is an overall assessment of course. There might well be fringe examples where either of the Bringers trump Grisel, but all in all I think he wins out.

[grokh]

As these aren't win conditions on their own such as Emrakul is I'm guessing these are for those instances where we have a Food Chain in play but no Griffin to go infinite. My thoughts, in short, are therefore: why play these over Griselbrand? We won't be playing them 'naturally', only with Food Chain and if that's the case then I'd rather be paying a mana less and getting Griselbrand (meaning we can get him down with just Fierce Empath and Aethersnipe. I know you can theoretically play them for 5 mana, but this would require a Griffin most of the time as the requirement is one of each colour and then again we're back at: why not just play Griselbrand instead.

This is an overall assessment of course. There might well be fringe examples where either of the Bringers trump Grisel, but all in all I think he wins out.

I dunno, i've still not tested em.

In my list, i run 4 Birds of paradise and i'm :g::u:, so it seems easy to have :g::u: from your lands then :w: from a Birds of paradise exiled for :r::r:. Then you just need to exile another creature to get :b::b: and you got your pentacolors.

Why playing these over Griselbrand ?
In the case of the :u: one .
I thought to it in the case i can't get a Fierce empath for digging the deck more and finding a solution faster. The point wasn't to replace Griselbrand but :
- you'll get 3 cards each turn without having to pay 7 life
- Griselbrand is black, he forces you to produce black mana just for him too
- Griselbrand can be neutralized by Pithing needle, the Bringer's ability is a triggered one

In the case of the :r: one.
I thought to it as a SB option against Show and tell combo decks and maybe aggro decks too :
- you can get rid off your opponent's threats by taking em, attacking then exiling it with Food chain
- it must be amazing in S&T MU, when your opponent Show and tell into Emrakul, the Aeons torn and you put Bringer of the red dawn into play. Then next turn, attack for 20 with Emrakul + Bringer

I dunno if these are good reasons, but the point wasn't to play these ones over Griselbrand

[nevilshute]

Hey guys,

So I'm heavily considering bringing Infinnigriffins to a big(ish) tournament in a few weeks (should be around 70 people which is the most I've tried).

I've played it only on a few occasions in the last month or so. I have been running the same list pretty much since RtR came out and, generally, I've really liked it. However I feel that lately, it's a little too fragile against two things:

1) the slew of fast(er) combo decks that have become very popular lately (Tin Fins aside there are a lot of ANT and Sneak&Show in my meta).

2) the influx of permission which I expect to face due to all the combo decks just mentioned.

So, here's the list I've been running:

Creatures:
3x Misthollow Griffins
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Baleful Strix
2x Wall of Blossoms
2x Vendilion Cllique
2x Shardless Agent
2x Fierce Empath
1x Aethersnipe
1x Griselbrand
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells:
4x Food Chain
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Ponder
2x Manipulate Fate
1x Misdirection
1x Sylvan Library
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands:
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Verdant Catacombs
2x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Forest
2x Ancient Tomb

Sideboard:
2x Dread of Night
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Flusterstorm

Currently I'm seriously considering dropping the Shardless Agents. They are great value when you're planning longer games versus grindier opponents. However they feel horribly slow and clonky versus a combo opponent. Especially because they will mostly cascade into another creature, which, again, versus slower opposition is usually great, but against combo is mostly meh.

I'm also considering dropping either the singleton Jace or Sylvan Library. I find myself siding Jace out frequently against a range of opposition. I'm tempted to say he should either be at least a two-off or not be played at all. The singleton Sylvan I'm leaning towards keeping. It's great to have permanent library manipulation.

At the moment I'm considering two possible roads:

1) hand disruption

2) (more) permission

Now, I'm at most considering 3-4 slots change so bear that in mind. Ideally I'd like to either fit in 3-4 Spell Pierce or 3-4 Thoughtseize/Duress.

Where do you guys see this going most profitably? I'm leaning towards the more permission and then keeping the 4 Cabal Therpies in the SB.

It takes us closer to Sneak&Show I think, which I'm not sure is optimal. Would love to hear some thoughts :)

[metamet]

Good luck!

I can see dropping the Agents, as they're best served as fodder for the Griffins.

I could see fitting in some hand disruption. We already have Clique, and some Thoughtsiezes would be solid.

Jace is expensive. Maybe a better sideboard option? And how do you feel about the MD Misdirection?

[nevilshute]

Danish Legacy Masters yesterday. 85 players. To my shock and delight TWO other people had brought Food Chain which meant there were three of us. I did extremely poorly myself but I am absolutely thrilled to report that one guy made it to a top4 finish:

http://mtgpulse.com/event/12649#177066 (http://http://mtgpulse.com/event/12649#177066)

Hoping Gottfried will post his matches at some stage :) Well done sir!

[metamet]

Wow, that's awesome! Food Chain represent!

No Gris or Aethersnipe, but I can't actually recall the last time I did the Gris/Snipe trick in a game... but I am not sure if Sphinx is actually better than Gris, but I assume Sphinx gets hard cast a lot more often than Gris would.

And MD Decays and discard. I'd be interested to see how helpful that was!

[metamet]

So, this is interesting, but might be too slow (and is similar to Spoils of the Vault, drawback wise): Desperate Research

[gottfrid]

Wrote a long report from the danish legacy masters tourney for a swedish website but I lost it due to a misclick in posting.

Short version follows:

List was:
4 food chain
3 misthollow griffin
3 manipulate fate
3 fierce empath
1 emrakul
1 consecrated sphinx
4 baleful strix
4 deathrite shaman
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 abrupt decay
3 inquisition of kozilek
4 force of will

4 polluted delta
3 misty rainforest
3 verdant catacombs
2 underground sea
3 tropical island
2 bayou
1 island
1 swamp

SB was
3 spell pierce
1 misdirection
2 obstinate baloth
3 golgari charm
3 relic of progenitus
1 abrupt decay
1 duress
1 cabal theray

R1 Lost to infect. In g3 he had 2 inkmoths in play and played the +6/+6 lure miracle pump on one of them. He has one more card. I'm at eight poison with foodchain 3 griffins and deathrite in play and fow+misdirection in hand. No spell in his game makes it worth countering there since I can regrow my griffins and I actually lose the race if I counter and his last card is the unblockable infect creature. I let it resolve only to see the last crad in his hand is pendelhaven which kills me with active fow in hand.

R2 was vs esper blade. I lost game 1, but turned the match around. jaces were grinded down by hardcast griffins. I won the last game comboing out but he was already lw eough that it would not have been necessary.

R3 was vs black white stoneforge deck. Don't remember much here except I won 2-1. He had mother of runes bob etc I believe. Non-batterskull equipment are actually quite good against us, so I got a little lucky here. Decay on equipment vs stoneforge decks is a huge tempo investment from their side which is what we need to get the cardmachine rolling.

R4 was vs a friend of mine with Maverick. G1 I had double fow backing up a t3 combo win. I needed both forces too =)
G2 was pretty much the same. I forced a knight of the reliquary that would attack my mana. On the turn that I comboed off which was pretty quickly, (t4-5) he had a knight and a pridemage in play but was tapped out. I dropped foodchain and when he went to get an untapped land for the pridemage I decayed it and won.

R5 was agains rug delver. This game was won pretty handliy 2-0. Rug is an ok matchup but it is important to protect the mana. dacay is important, as well as the relics and extra dacay from the board. Any deck can lose against rug, but I think this deck actually has somewhat positive percentages against it. the longer the game goes the better for us obviously.

It was 7 rounds so Ive forgotten one round. The last round I was forced to play because I was paiered against the X-1 in 9th place. (I was eigth). She was on dredge. I offered the draw and told her to tell me if she changed her mind during the game. One person at X-1-1 could steal her top8slot if he won.

In our match she handily crushed me in g1. I forced a putrid imp and played a manipulate fate. She played dread return for iona on blue .. gg. g2 I landed relic and then deathrite. She had out sfor a turn or two but within 2 rounds I was sure to win. At that moment the X-1-1 guy lost and we drew for top8.

In the semi I played a friend of mine on esper blade. I won quite easily due to him muliganing both games. I ended up with a sphinx in play when he had no more swords for it.

In the semis I played rug. I lost the first game fair and square to a t1 delver backed by counteragic. I saw no decay. G2 was absurdly long and I kept running spells into his counters while he found no gas of his own. I made at least two misplays. One being usng a force of will (pitching griffin) on a goyf instead of one of the three decays in my hand. I had not seen a nimble mongoose and I was going to play the griffin next turn anyway. He bolted the griffin and brainstormed into two mongeese that killed me.

All in all I went 6-2-1 winning two bayous and two scrublands... About the sideboard I never used the baloths which are there for burn and jund/team america (bad matchups that I dodged). The golgari charms are against decks like elves maverich belcher enchanterss etc.. I rarely side these and will switch them for a better card. other than that the sb is fine Relic is a bit slow vs dredge and reanimator/tinfins but it's so good vs rug that I feel they are the graveyard hate of choice.

Any tip on what to put in the board over g-charms would be much appreciated. I dont really feel like we need more against maverick or belcher, and no one seems to play elves anymore.

C-ya.. dont let this thread die out completely. Glad to see 'shute and metamet at least still working on this

[gottfrid]

Daaaaiiiimmn that desperate research card is pretty cool.

If it get you what you want and exiles a griffin it's nuts. Depends on how often it will miss though. Will have to test that!

[nevilshute]

Thanks for the report Gottfried :)

I've decided to tweek my list to resemble yours quite a bit. My only differences are:

- 3x Inquisition + 2x Thoughtseize/1x Duress
- 1x Fierce Empath + 1x Griselbrand
- 1x Consecrated Sphinx +??? (so far I'm at +1 Wall of Blossoms, but it could be something else entirely, like Sylvan Library for instance).

On these points I'd like to ask you about your arguments for bringing the Sphinx to begin with? And also how well you'd say it performs all in all. I mean it's a brutal effect, once it gets to trigger, but it just does nothing when facing a Swords to Plowshares or other instant speed removal and then it just feels like a wasted 6cmc.

I'm thinking that if it's because we want another big/devastating creature that might not win on the spot like Emrakul, but will effectively end the game in a few turns and can be hard cast then isn't Griselbrand really what we'd like? He doesn't pitch to Force and is 2 mana more expensive, but he is just so much better once resolved.

If it's because we'd like to up our blue count and want a spoiler card at a reasonable mana cost that will sway the game in our favour then is Sphinx preferable over running, say, a singleton Jace?

I'd love to hear your thoughts and experiences. The Sphinx is quite rediculously good if they can't answer it before drawing their next card :)

And I wholeheartedly agree that we need to keep this thread going. I won't be playing Food Chain for the next couple of weeks (at least not in any tournaments) but will report back once I do.

@metamet: Desperate Research seems familiar to Ancestral Knowledge which I tested for a while. Looking at the top seven (it is 10 in the case of AK) won't reveal a Food Chain nearly as often as we'd like it to in my experience. If you decide to test it I'd be very interesting in hearing your findings though :)

[metamet]

Thanks for the report gottfrid! Good stuff there. :)

I like the idea of maindeck discard, and I was *sort of* achieving that with two Cliques, but I think the discard sorcery spells might have a home there. How often did they feel like they were pivotal?

And I agree with nevilshute on the Sphinx completely. While a nice card to land, it doesn't change the field once it hits (like Gris and Emmy do). Although it's easier to hardcast, is the effect worth the gamble?

I still love this deck, but I haven't been getting much Legacy in lately due to doing Muay Thai on Legacy nights. I had to sacrifice something in order to kick my girlfriend, and my weekly Legacy tournament happened to be it. :X But I still try to play a tourny a couple times a month, and I do play with friends pretty regularly.

I'm excited for spoiler season, as any 6 drop on color piques my interests. Wish they would bring back Evoke... :laugh:

[laststepdown]

As for 6 drops, I've been using Prime Speaker Zegana instead of Griselbrand, and I still run 1 Emrakul. I'm also running Tarmogoyf though-I only own 2 Baleful Strix-and personally don't like more than 2 Manipulate Fate. Goyf has actually been amazing as an alternate win by itself. As it does. Regarding Clique, I think it's probably one of the better interaction cards we have, barring FoW and Thoughtseize.

[grokh]

Hi all, metamet, shute !

Just last week, I won a tournament with my decklist !

It was at a 9-players tournament and i ended 1st with 4-0, I only won by 2-0 each time !

What's the secret ? Lots of cantrip creatures, and big drawers.

Here's the list :

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// NAME : New Food chain
// CREATOR : grokh (magic-ville.com)
// FORMAT : Legacy
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [R] Savannah
2 [UNH] Island
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [AVR] Griselbrand
1 [CHK] Myojin of Seeing Winds
1 [CMD] Æthersnipe
3 [CMD] Fierce Empath
4 [M12] Birds of Paradise
4 [AVR] Misthollow Griffin
4 [CMD] Mulldrifter
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
4 [CMD] Wall of Omens
4 [MM] Food Chain
2 [MM] Misdirection
4 [CMD] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [IN] Manipulate Fate
SB: 1 [] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [CFX] Progenitus
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [7E] Compost
SB: 1 [VI] City of Solitude
SB: 1 [M13] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [PT] Natural Order

I run 4 Mulldrifter, and 8 pseudo-Wall of blossoms. It was almost impossible to fizzle cos i have Myojin of seeing winds, allowing me to draw a lot even if i haven't enough life for a Griselbrand

R1 vs Bant : i just combo-off too fast, crushing him 2 times !

R2 vs Esperblade :
G1, he manage to put Batterskull on board, but i combo and crush him.
G2, he discards me 3 times during the 3 fisrt turns but i land a pseudo-Wall of blossoms each turn. He finally puts Jace, the mind sculptor on play, begins to control my topdecks but i had all i needed for combo in hand and combo next turn. I killed him with Emrakul, the aeons torn + Griselbrand

R3 vs Poison mono-G :
G1, he begins hitting me just to 4 poison counters but i combo in one turn and kill him
G2, he has only 2 Inkmoth nexus during a long time attacking me for 1 poison counter each turn and i kill him by combo in one turn/

R4 vs ANT :
G1, he begins to storm, but he misses one colored mana, so storm at 6, i take 12 damage, but i had a Misthollow griffin on board achieving him for 3 damages per turn
G2, he tries to discard but the discard is highly counterbalanced by the CA i generate each turn with a pseudo-Wall of blossoms. I can see him very sad when i land a Myojin of seeing winds and draw 10 for 0, then combo with all my kills on board !

My thoughts :
- Myojin of seeing winds is REAL REAL powerful, he saved me from fizzle a lot of times !
- having 3 Fierce empath is needed, cos he'll enable the combo each time
1) if no infinite but < 7 life, go AEthersnipe, then re-Fierce empath then Myojin of seeing winds FTW
2) if no infinite but > 7 life, go AEthersnipe, then re-Fierce empath then Griselbrand FTW
3) if infinite, go Emrakul, the aeons torn FTW

It's just 3 cards in the list but you'll never be able to fizzle with it, always ensure to win in the turn.

I've really loved my SB toolbox with Enlightened tutor, cos i can face against almost any deck with it !

Thoughts ?

[gottfrid]

The reqasoning behind sphinx is based on the following observations made when testing with this deck:

A. I observed that I wanted a hardcastable card that could be fetched with empaths in addition to emrakul.
When I only had emrakul as empath target it happened a lot that I either could've cast a sixdrop, or that I already had emrakul in hand and couldn't even get a card from the empath.

B. The secondary empath target needs to cost six. It is difficult enough to resolve anyway and for seven or more mana you would almost always need food chan to cast it anyway, at which point emrakul would only be better. I believe that griselbrand is very bad in this deck, and I don't understand why it's in a lot of lists tbh.

C. The secondary empath target needs to be blue. I has been very important , winning me many games, to be able to convert an empath into fow fodder. With this creature blue, FoW is really, really good in the deck.

These observations, taken together, result in one copy of sphinx in the deck. He's simply the best blue sixdrop in magic.

[laststepdown]

I'm pretty sure Vela the Night-Clad wins on the spot as a blue secondary win empath 6 cmc target as compared to Sphinx or anything else.

[Darkenslight]

I'm pretty sure Vela the Night-Clad wins on the spot as a blue secondary win empath 6 cmc target as compared to Sphinx or anything else.

Yes, yes it does.

[gottfrid]

Again, we are not looking for a creature that wins the game when we have food chian + griffin(s) going.

Emrakul does that, so in that case you'd go get him.

We are looking for a card that best makes use of an empath in a late game where we have traded resources but we don't have food chain.

That said, vela is interesting. It's a shame she dies to a single removal, otherwise emrakul could have been substituted for her, since she's also blue. Swords vulnerability makes that idea less good, though Emrakul also protects against painter and is really crucial part f our strategy against show and tell decks, so ... emmy is the best primary empath target.

[nevilshute]

Long time, no Food Chain news. I've been playing all sorts of other decks this past month and a half, everything from Maverick to ANT, but the other night I got that itching in my fingers... sometimes you just have to summon some griffins!

So I re-assembled the deck and went to a new LGS close to where I live that have started running a weekly legacy tournament. It was a relatively small turnout of 16 players. We played five rounds with a top four play off. I ended up getting into the top four where I lost my semi-final against ANT. All in all I was very pleased with how things went and how the deck performed.

Rnd 1: Against UB Tezzeret: won 2-0. Decent match-up. They're big combo hate is their MD chalice which doesn't hurt us that badly. We also have Abrupt Decay MD to answer it if need be.

Rnd 2: Against Jund: lost 1-2 (really annoyed as I had beat this player four times prior to the tournament where we were just playing for kicks). It seems like a good match-up for us. Abrupt Decay is annoying, but it seems that they're too slow killing us and we should be favored.

Rnd 3: Dead Guy Ale: won 2-0. Again, not a bad match-up. He had very little interaction and I comboed off easily in both games.

Rnd 4: Combo Elves: won 2-1. Slow combo deck against a slower combo deck. Feels like we have the upper hand.

Rnd 5: ANT: ID 1-1. We played anyway and I won 2-1. Tough match-up imo.

Semi-final: ANT (same player): lost 1-2. Like I said, tough match-up. I feel I have a decent sideboard to fight them, but it's still an uphill battle.

I ran a list very, very similar to the one Gottfried top-4'd with at the DLM:

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Misthollow Griffin
3x Manipulate Fate
1x Consecrated Sphinx

4x Food Chain
3x Fierce Empath

2x Thoughtseize
1x Duress

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Baleful Strix
3x Abrupt Decay

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
3x Spell Pierce
1x Misdirection
3x Relic of Progenitus
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Abrupt Decay
3x Golgari Charm
1x Karakas

My biggest issues were probably down to not having played the deck for a long time. I made a couple of silly mulligan decisions (or rather failure to) during the game. One of which I'm fairly certain cost me game against the Elves player. I also find it difficult finding what to side out. The list feels quite tight.

[Water_Wizard]

@gottfrid and everyone else - why Inquisition of Kozilek over Thoughtseize or Duress? It seems like Thoughtseize is superior due to its ability to grab Force.

[grokh]

Hi,

I just played the deck on a 18 player tournament, finished 4th.

I lost agaisnt Burn cos when i had my Griselbrand, i was at 7 life so couldn't activate it, obliged to declare end of turn, then he finished me during his turn.

Have you ever considered Drogskol reaver as a SB option against Burn or all decks agressing our life too much ?

It has double strike, is blue for Force of will/Misdirection and it'll make you draw and gain life, and it's CCM :7: for being tutored with Fierce empath

Thoughts ?

[nevilshute]

Hi,

I just played the deck on a 18 player tournament, finished 4th.

I lost agaisnt Burn cos when i had my Griselbrand, i was at 7 life so couldn't activate it, obliged to declare end of turn, then he finished me during his turn.

Have you ever considered Drogskol reaver as a SB option against Burn or all decks agressing our life too much ?

It has double strike, is blue for Force of will/Misdirection and it'll make you draw and gain life, and it's CCM :7: for being tutored with Fierce empath

Thoughts ?

I'd certainly be interested to hear how Drogskol Reaver plays. I haven't faced off against burn for a long time, but it's a notoriously hard match up for us judged on my experiences.

I'm going to be trying out 2x Spellskite in my sideboard for any Jund/bug deck packing Abrupt Decays.

When I played last week Abrupt Decay was quite annoying and Spellskite seems like a really good weapon against it :) I'd be interested in hearing if anyone has any experience using them. In either case I'll report back with my own findings.

On another note:

I think this primer could really use a brush up. It doesn't mention running the deck in a BUG shell and nobody plays Maga anymore.

I'm not overly familiar with this sort of thing, but is there anyway around creating a whole new thread? Not sure if the person who started this thread is active anymore, but I don't think so.

[grokh]

I'd certainly be interested to hear how Drogskol Reaver plays. I haven't faced off against burn for a long time, but it's a notoriously hard match up for us judged on my experiences.

I'm going to be trying out 2x Spellskite in my sideboard for any Jund/bug deck packing Abrupt Decays.

When I played last week Abrupt Decay was quite annoying and Spellskite seems like a really good weapon against it :) I'd be interested in hearing if anyone has any experience using them. In either case I'll report back with my own findings.

On another note:

I think this primer could really use a brush up. It doesn't mention running the deck in a BUG shell and nobody plays Maga anymore.

I'm not overly familiar with this sort of thing, but is there anyway around creating a whole new thread? Not sure if the person who started this thread is active anymore, but I don't think so.

Oh you know, i've never played the BUG shell, i'm playing on a UGw shell full combo since a long time and i did 6-3 at Bazaar of Moxen Day 1 this year (708 people tournament in France)

Spellskite seems to be a good idea against Burn too, cos you can redirect a burn spell from you on him maybe ...

[metamet]

I'd be happy to write the primer. I can post a cross article over at Quiet Speculation around the same time.

In prep for the primer, what're everyone's current lists?

And on Drogskoll -- it seems that Gris is simply a better option, as they both have lifelink and neither has haste. They take a turn to swing, Gris gains +7 and Drog only gains +6. Gris's butt is a few points bigger too.

For Burn and other aggro decks, I like to bring in one Wurmcoil Engine.

[nevilshute]

metamet! You'd be the perfect choice to write the primer.

My current list is as follows:

Creatures:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Baleful Strix
3x Misthollow Griffin
3x Fierce Empath
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Consecrated Sphinx

Spells:
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Food Chain
3x Manipulate Fate
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Thoughtseize
1x Duress

Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Forest

Sideboard:
3x Golgari Charm
3x Spell Pierce
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Spellskite
1x Misdirection

Feel free to post for assistance/questions for writing the primer. Looking forward to it! :)

[Obould]

Hi,

my current list is this:

Lands:
4x Misty rainforest
4x Wooded foothills
1x verdant catacombs
3x Tropical island
2x Bayou
2x forest
2x island
1x swamp

Creatures:
1x Emrakul
3x Misthollow Griffin
3x Fierce Empath
1x Aethersnipe
1x Griselbrand
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Tarmogoyf
2x Wall of blossoms (baleful strix would be better)
2x Mulldrifter (same as above)

Spells:
4x Food chain
4x Force of Will
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
2x Manipulate fate
1x Sylvan library
2x Misdirection

Sideboard:
1x Tarmogoyf
2x Spell pierce
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Umezawa's jitte
3x Pithing needle
4x Abrupt Decay

I think I can change main misdirections and sylvan library for discard. Though Misdirection has been great in my meta full of abrupt decays. Aggro MU's hasn't been an issue with my list thanks to tarmogoyfs and wall of blossoms. My list have a plan B with beatdown and I have won quite many games without comboing beating with tarmos and shooting with shamans.

[nevilshute]

@Obould:

I think we can all relate to what you're saying about the beatdown plan. I think, in an askew sort of way, that that is what the deck has going for it: it's midrange combo deck. I'd estimate that, of the games I win, probably a quarter of them are from griffin beatdown + DRShaman pinging. The Baleful Strix (and in your case, Tarmogoyf to an extent) buys us time against the fair midrange decks such as Jund, BUG and the likes.

Can I ask you, how are the goyfs working out for you? I know metamet were running them as a sideboard plan for a long time but (I think?) has since then dropped that plan.

I've never tried them, mainly due to not owning any goyfs, but also because they've always seemed a bit underwhelming due to not having an EtB ability.

[Obould]

Tarmogoyfs have been great and almost every time I'm happy to draw them if the board position doesn't need immediately an answer to something or combo to get the win home. Although they don't have EtB-abilities, they are big and can kill quite fast. Opponent have to think if they kill your tarmo or save the decay for your food chain. And importantly your tarmos block your opponent's tarmos. And if you have jitte in sideboard they are quite nasty against creature based decks (usually I side out a little bit of combo for example aethersnipe and griselbrand or manipulate fate). Then you still have the combo and you can survive from the swarm.

I'm also glad to have more threats if your food chain gets extirpated or surgical extractioned (happened couple of times on the draw if you have food chain in opening hand: discard + surgical). Also atleast one person has a couple of slaughter games in his nic fit-deck in our meta :/ Then you don't have to rely griffins plus couple of pingers. Maybe tarmogoyfs can be in sideboard and main would be more combo-oriented... hmmm hard decisions :D

[grokh]

Here's my list :

/ Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// NAME : New Food chain
// CREATOR : grokh (magic-ville.com)
// FORMAT : Legacy

// Lands
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Island
1 [R] Bayou
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [R] Savannah
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
1 [M12] Birds of Paradise
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [AVR] Griselbrand
1 [CMD] Æthersnipe
3 [CMD] Court Hussar
3 [CMD] Fierce Empath
3 [AVR] Misthollow Griffin
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [CMD] Mulldrifter
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms

// Combo
4 [MM] Food Chain

// Instants
4 [CMD] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
2 [MM] Misdirection

// Sorceries
1 [IN] Manipulate Fate

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [CFX] Progenitus
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
SB: 1 [M13] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [PT] Natural Order
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm

With a :w: touch for Enlightened tutor, and enchantments/artifacts SB-options, allow to profit a maximum of Court hussar too, as a finder for the chain

[germain]

This list has been testing pretty well. The card I am most sketchy on is sylvan library. Can't really afford life loss and seems too slow.

// Lands
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [AVR] Island (3)
2 [ALA] Forest (3)

// Creatures
4 [AVR] Misthollow Griffin
2 [SC] Fierce Empath
2 [RAV] Drift of Phantasms
1 [LRW] AEthersnipe
4 [LRW] Mulldrifter
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [AVR] Griselbrand
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman

// Spells
2 [IN] Manipulate Fate
4 [MM] Food Chain
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [NE] Daze
2 [LG] Sylvan Library

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [SOK] Maga, Traitor to Mortals

[germain]

I have gotten rid of sylvan library to max out on ponders. The deck runs much smoother. I have also pulled one drift of phantasms for the third empath. I have liked that change as well.

I feel like the maindeck is optimized.

The single drift of phantasms is nice because in the late game it can get what you need to win (food chain or fierce empath). You can always pitch it to force if you don't need it. Jace is such a powerful card in the abstract, it could be worth testing. However, I really like having a "fifth food chain".

I like 4 griffin and 2 manipulate fate over 3 of each because griffin combos so nicely with force. It basically makes force read "play this card for free if you lose one life". Drawing multiple fates is not great. Having for griffins lets you tutor for three with fate, even if you already drew one.

Running griselbrand has been relevant in a few games where I would not have gone off with out it (the empath for snipe, then bounce empath and play it for griselbrand trick).

The 8 dig spells are awesome. The mana creatures are perfect.

I like 2 daze because people have to play around it, but you don't draw multiples.

Mulldrifter is great to dig, pitch, or accelerate with food chain. Does a lot of work in this deck.

In the sideboard, I removed Maga and faerie macabres because I now only have one drift to tutor with. I have added 3 spellskites to deal with abrupt decay. They are also nice vs aggressive decks, especially ones with qasali pridemage.

My board is now...
3 pithing needle (planeswalkers, pridemage, belcher, random stuff)
3 spellskite (abrupt decay, burn, aggressive decks with pridemage)
3 spell pierce (show and tell, combo)
4 surgical extraction (dredge, loam, reanimator)
2 krosan grip (humility, counterbalance)

[MaximumC]

I have gotten rid of sylvan library to max out on ponders. The deck runs much smoother. I have also pulled one drift of phantasms for the third empath. I have liked that change as well.

I feel like the maindeck is optimized.


Eh.

I was playing a Misthollow list in Vintage for awhile, and doing fairly well with it. (Sanctioned with only about half of the crowd being fully powered on any given day.) I'm thinking of taking this brew to Legacy this week, and I've got a different take on it. I think your experiences are converging with what I'm seeing as a successful build, namely, "Don't play bad cards." I think there may still be room to go with your list, though.

Here's what I'm starting my playtesting with:

Creatures (19)
4 Noble Hierarch (She makes the mana we want, and she makes Griffin surprisingly lethal)
4 Deathrite Shaman (This card is bonkers good and deserves to be a 4-of. In addition to all the great things he usually does, in this deck he also regrows your Griffins if you're stuck in an aggro game)
2 Scavenging Ooze (I am not sure about this slot. Competition includes Tarmagoyf, who is huge. It also includes Quiron Dryad, who is essentially another win condition. She goes infinite when you're looping your Griffins. I like Ooze because it's just a more useful card generally, and both Dryad and Goyf just eat removal without doing anything, but I could be wrong.)
2 Fierce Empath (I agree it would great if this went to 3. Can't find space, though.)
4 Misthollow Griffin (I run the full four due to large amount of pitch magic)
1 Aethersnipe
1 Grislebrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Dig (8)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
(I think you're right on here. These eight dig spells are far more efficient and versatile than the slow tutors or Mulldrifter.)

Combo (4)
4 Food Chain

Protection (9)
2 Misdirection (I believe it is a terrible mistake not to run some significant number of Misdirections and Diverts in a world populated with Abrupt Decay. Both seem better than Spellskite)
4 Force of Will
3 Divert / Spell Pierce / Abrupt Decay / Thoughtseize (Again, not sure which of these goes main deck. I feel like this is a sideboard slot. If I'm against BUG, I can't imagine anything better than Diverting a Decay onto their own Bob)

Mana (20) (I see you running less. That might be correct, but going below 20 can easily lead to awful mulligan decisions, and getting your only second mana source bolted dead can put you right out of the game. We're not fast or consistent enough to sneak by with less lands.)
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
2 Breeding Pool (The blue/green combination is very important. Could be a pair of basics, though)
2 Underground Sea
2 Ancient Tomb (Totally agree that this is the right number of Tombs; I've tested this in Vintage extensively)
2 Island
1 Forest

Sideboard
3 Pernicious Deed (This hoses our mana dorks, yes. But I see no better option for wiping the board against faster aggro decks like Goblins)
3 Divert / Spell Pierce / Abrupt Decay / Thoughtseize (whatever you did not bring in the main earlier
3 Krosan Grip (Agree on the need to deal with Humility, Chalice, and Counterbalance)
2 Faerie Macabre / Scavenging Ooze (more dredge / reanimator insurance)
1 Hurkyl's Recall / Seeds of Innocence (I like at least one card to shore up affinity and MUD)
3 Sower of Temptation / Dismember / Threads of Disloyalty (In matchups against true BUG or RUG, you will probably need to rely less on the combo and more on an attrition war against them)

In goldfishing so far, the deck has a route to victory by turn 4 about half of the time, but does not have protection on all of those occasions. The other half of the time, you get to infinite mana but then have nothing to do with it, awkwardly. I am considering other ways to ensure that you always have a win available once you go off. Possibilities include:

- Omnath, Lord of Mana (seems fine with all our mana dorks normally)
- Quiron Dryad (seems fine with our numerous durdle-the-top-deck cards)

...and nothing else, actually. Remember, I'm not looking for another bullet that i can only fire when you combo out, like Maga. I'm looking for something you drop early as you play an aggro-control game, and then it gets stupid-huge when and if you combo.

EDIT: Actually, there are a few other options for finishers.

-Animar, Soul of Elements
This requires a Red splash, but with all the Deathrites and Fetches, that isn't so hard to pull off. The ability to dodge black and white removal and defenders is a pretty huge bonus over what you get with any other creature that you can grow to insane sizes using Griffin.

- Champion of Lambholt
Ah, this one is interesting, too. When you go infinite, it can't be blocked. It's pretty lame before you go off, though, since it will come down after your 1-drops and not really grow again except due to Griffin.

- Essence Warden
Maybe? I dont think you're going to be gaining a ton of life until you combo, though, so she seems pretty bad.

- Fable of Wolf and Owl
Infinity birds, but way too expensive.

-Forgotten Ancient
Interesting, but too expensive. Probably worse than Dryad.

-Gravegill Duo, Primeval Bounty, Bronzebeak Moa,
These are terrible, terrible cards but they do like to be romanced by a Griffin blinking an infinity of times.

- Primordial Sage, Soul of the Harvest, Glimpse, Beck // Call, Cream of the Crop, Dire Undercurrents, Garruck's Packleader, Kavu Lair
These just draw you into another win and are probably worse than more Fierce Empaths. However, at least Glimpse has the potential to be a value play in the early game. I think you'd need at least 12 1-drops to make thiis worthwhile, though. We're not doin that.

- Sage's Row Denezin
Yeah, it's a milling alt win, but again these cards are super bad until you combo.

So, as far as I can tell, the only serious options are:

1. Qurion Dryad (Cheap, decent before combo, dies to removal, no evasion)
2. Tarmagoyf (Cheap, good but does jack all with combo, dies to removal, no evasion)
3. Animar, Soul of Elements (Expensive, decent before combo, evades black and white removal, has evasion against black and white)
4. Omnath (Expensive, but decent before combo with extra lands, dies to removal, no evasion)
5. Scavening Ooze (Cheap, good but does jack all with combo, dies to removal, no evasion, regrows Griffins, gains you life, hoses yard)

I still feel like Ooze gives you the most bang for the buck, but perhaps we stick a few Animars in the sideboard for matches against Swords...?

[metamet]

No Manipulate Fates eh?

Sorry I haven't been on top of the primer yet -- I was on vacation (in Sweden!) for a few weeks and now I'm back in the swing of getting caught up at work. I haven't had too much time to play Legacy due to that, but there is a SCG Open in Minneapolis this coming Sunday I plan on taking part in. Haven't decided if this is going to be the deck I'll play yet, but I certainly want it to be. :)

[nedleeds]

I don't understand running no Manipulate Fate. Cantrips. Shuffle for brainstorm. Puts griffins in exile. Just run a wonky Recruiter chain if you don't run griffin and don't run griffins if you aren't running Manipulate Fate. I also don't get no Intuition. Against decks that can't interact on the stack Intuition is instant Demonic Tutor for Food Chain and lets you just go get it, untap and possibly win.

[MaximumC]

I don't understand running no Manipulate Fate. Cantrips. Shuffle for brainstorm. Puts griffins in exile. Just run a wonky Recruiter chain if you don't run griffin and don't run griffins if you aren't running Manipulate Fate. I also don't get no Intuition. Against decks that can't interact on the stack Intuition is instant Demonic Tutor for Food Chain and lets you just go get it, untap and possibly win.

I love both of those cards, but you have to cut something somewhere. With respect to Intuition, sure, it helps if the opponent is letting you goldfish. In the real world though, just about every deck has some way of interacting with you. The biggest offenders are gonna be countermagic, abrupt decay, and swords. I dislike the idea of having bank on resolving a 3 mana spell to go find my combo, and would rather rely on Brainstorm and Ponder, which cost less and typically never get countered. I think Intuition gets more important if you increase the number of Fierce Empaths, though, because Empath + Food Chain is a late game win. So, basically, I prefer 1 mana dig spells to 3 mana tutors.

Manipulate Fate is a much closer call. I can totally see the value in casting Fate early so you have 3 Phantom Monsters on tap. The reason I cut them in my list is that I usually want my Griffins in hand; I'm running four Force and two Misdirection! Still, I could see cutting one Force and maybe a land to add a Manipulate Fates. They do ensure you've got one combo piece and can more easily dig for the rest.

(Why cut a Force, incidentally? Because, as I mentioned above, Abrupt Decay is EVERYWHERE and absolutely wrecks your face It is the most commonly played answer to Food Chain. Divert and Misdirection are way better than Force at stopping this menace.)

[metamet]

I think two Manipulate Fates makes the most sense in this build. I have traditionally run 3 Griffins, but with maindeck Misdirections, 4 makes more sense.

I really like the idea of Quirion Dryad. It creates a low level beater and a way to stack a win condition that doesn't require Emmy or Empath.

Here's the list I will be testing with next, taking into consideration the points you raised MaximumC. 61 cards, so we'll need to figure out where to trim. I am considering a Hierarch or a Ponder at the moment.


4 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Quiron Dryad
2 Fierce Empath
4 Misthollow Griffin
1 Aethersnipe
1 Grislebrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Manipulate Fate

4 Food Chain

2 Misdirection
3 Force of Will
3 Divert

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant catacombs
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Forest
2 Ancient Tomb

[MaximumC]

Okay, so I went to the Legacy event. It was about twelve people, three rounds of swiss. I ended the day at 2-1.

Here's the list I brought:

Creatures (19)
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmagoyf
2 Fierce Empath
4 Misthollow Griffin
1 Aethersnipe
1 Grislebrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Dig (8)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Combo (4)
4 Food Chain

Protection (9)
2 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
1 Abrupt Decay

Search (2)
1 Intuition
1 Manipulate Fate

Mana (20)
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
2 Breeding Pool
2 Underground Sea
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Island
1 Forest

Sideboard
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Divert
1 Krosan Grip
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Scavening Ooze
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Here's how the matches went:

MATCH ONE - Versus GB Rock

Game one I get there on the back of flying dorks. In comes the removal! Game 2 he gets his Life from the Loam + Ghost Quarter(?!?) engine going, and runs me out of basics. In this particular matchup, Quarter is actually better for him than Wasteland, as he can blast my basics until I run out! Game 3 we share removal, and I eat Ghost Quaters whenever I see them. We eventually go to turns, but I topdeck Emrakul to combo out and murder him on turn 2 of turns.

MATCH TWO - Versus Elves!

I did not know what he was playing. Game 1, I keep a slow and steady hand, so the Elf player goes bonkers. In come more dismembers, abrupt decays, and Deed. Game 2, I have a t2 Deed on the play, which prevents him from casting elves. I keep Forcing his Glimpse pitching Griffin. Eventually, an Exalted Griffin goes to work and finishes him off. Game 3, I have the God hand of Forest, Hierarch, Ancient Tomb, Misthollow, Food Chain, Empath, and something else who cares. Elves has no way of stopping me from going off on turn 3.

MATCH THREE - Versus Esper control

Game one, he didn't understand what I was playing and he is overwhelmed by Giffins in the air. Game two, he plays very carefully and correctly, managing to dodge Divert against his Thoughtseize (he was playing around Daze, I think) and stalls long enough to eventually beat down. Game 3, I miss my third land drop. We quibble over cards for awhile, but then Jace shows up and I can't find more mana. This was a frustrating game, because the entire time I was one mana away from comboing out (Griffin in exile, Food Chain and Empath in hand; just needed 2 lands and to stick a mana dork for one turn!) He wisely keeps me at 2 mana the whole game and eventually ultimates me with Jace.

CONCLUSIONS

Intuition is not good. It SEEMS good on paper, but it's not. Your enemies move too quickly to rely on a 3cc spell. I was far happier to play the role of BUG fish, which you can do relatively well, and just get double value out of Griffins. Then, if you draw the right pieces, you go off. This is easier than you think with 8 dig spells,and with the fact that Griffin usually ends up exiled.

Griffin is baws. Not only does he combo out and work great with Force, but he's also immune to Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decay, the most played removal out there. This was stymying people all day.

I did not like Goyf as a two-of. I should either go to four, or switch for Ooze / Dryad. Two mana feels right for the aggro plan, but Goyf just doesn't DO enough when he does drop.

Manipulate Fate continues to seem fine, but I never drew it.

Your mana is tighter than it seems. I am considering switching to more basics to hedge against land destruction. This deck, even with its dorks, has a very high curve for Legacy.

[metamet]

Thanks for the report! I agree with Intuition. And Goyf maindeck get cloggy. I used to run it sideboard, but then discovered there were some better options out there.

A few ideas for the Goyf slot:


Wall of Roots
Wall of Blossoms
more Manipulate Fates
Quirion Dryad -- as a win con


The Walls are nice as they're a pitchable body to Food Chain once it lands so you can ramp up to cast the Griffin. I like running 2-3 Fates, but with 4 Griffins, 2 seems right. And Dryad needs to be seen as a win condition more than an aggro beater.

Ooze seems a bit mana intensive and dies to both Decay and Swords, which kind of negates the whole value of the birdies out there.

[metamet]

Or, of course, +1 Fierce Empath for the sake of consistency. I'm not sure how much those two slots (Ooze/Dryad, etc.) actually affect the game. Perhaps we go for consistency:


4 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Fierce Empath
4 Misthollow Griffin
1 Aethersnipe
1 Grislebrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Manipulate Fate

4 Food Chain

2 Misdirection
3 Force of Will
3 Divert

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant catacombs
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Forest
2 Ancient Tomb

[metamet]

The only downside to this list is that it doesn't have Baleful Strix.

But I don't know if that affects our gameplan all that much against most decks, considering the sideboard we have.

Here is my current SB:

Sideboard:
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize

Not sure if the 4 Thoughtseize is necessary, but that + Clique help a ton against combo and Abrupt Decay.

[nedleeds]

If Abrupt Decay is your primary concern. The best way to attack Abrupt Decay is targeted discard. Making your Food Chains cost 2BG ... I feel like you should be trying to win the turn you resolve it right?

[metamet]

If Abrupt Decay is your primary concern. The best way to attack Abrupt Decay is targeted discard. Making your Food Chains cost 2BG ... I feel like you should be trying to win the turn you resolve it right?

If we are looking to play around Abrupt Decay, a better choice for the deck MIGHT be Venser, Shaper Savant, since we will typically be ramping into four mana to cast our Griffin. The only issue is that it doesn't quit work super well with the stack if our opponent casts the AD properly.

For example:


Cast Food Chain, resolves
Remove creature for 4 blue (mana ability)
Attempt to cast Griffin --
-- opponent responds with Abrupt Decay on Food Chain
AD resolves (Food Chain removed), Griffin resolves.


If the interaction went differently and we somehow had 4 blue available, then the Venser, Shaper Savant would be perfect in that we could remove the AD from the stack and continue on.

The issue with Vendilion Clique is that it's preemptive and needs to occur before the Food Chain is on the board. It actually works really well at your opponent's EOT before you go off, and it also sets you up for having a creature to ramp into Griffin with.

The only other mono-colored creatures with flash I found to maybe be worthy would be Spellstutter Sprite, Plaxmanta and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir but I don't know if there are many 1 mana spells we need to counter, and it seems rare that our creatures are targeted... and Snapcaster Mage doesn't really do much for us either.

Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is interesting because you could attempt to resolve Teferi before the threat of AD, as having one on board essentially means AD is no longer an issue. But then you'd have to either have 5 mana available EOT or... well yeah, that's the only way it'd work. At that point it isn't much different than Clique, except more expensive.

[MaximumC]

The issue with Vendilion Clique is that it's preemptive and needs to occur before the Food Chain is on the board. It actually works really well at your opponent's EOT before you go off, and it also sets you up for having a creature to ramp into Griffin with.


Most of the cards we're talking about suffer from being fairly bad cards alone, but using Clique for this purpose is actually a really good idea. It supplies you with more beats, fuel for the combo, and as aforementioned, guards against Abrupt Decay. I think that might be the answer here!

Now I'm thinking a main deck like this:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Fierce Empath
4 Misthollow Griffin
1 Aethersnipe
1 Grislebrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Manipulate Fate

4 Food Chain

2 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Abrupt Decay

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant catacombs
4 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Ancient Tomb

Now, the reason I don't like three Empaths is that they don't do anything until your ready to combo off. I mean, you can go get Aethersnipe so you have a 4/4, and that's fine during the late game. But typically he doesn't do anything. He has a bigger downside than, say, Quiron Dryad who is effective in other ways.

I am pretty sure that this particular combo deck can co-exist so readily in a typical BUG Fish shell that you might as well put it in one. Make a deck that doesn't suck, and has access to a combo. Against faster combo decks, you sideboard out MIsdirections and some of your topdeck searches for more removal and play like BUG Fish. Against control decks, you run more protection and try to combo fast.

[metamet]

I've always liked 2 maindeck Cliques.

My only questionable slot now is the singleton MD Abrupt Decay. Is the singleton worth it? It's very good against aggressive decks, but how often will we see it with just one in the list? I am not against it, but I wonder if this is the best use of this slot. Perhaps Sylvan Library as more dig...?

This deck really likes having bodies, and the MD Cliques help a lot with that. They make me want to see the opponent's hand more as well. Maybe Thoughtseize? Hm.

[metamet]

I went 6-3 yesterday at the SCG Legacy Open in Minneapolis, losing to Storm, Sneak and Show and UWR Delver. I moneyed but would've preferred 7-2. :)

I lost to Jake Xu playing Storm in three rounds. He got 2nd place in the tourney. Game three he opens on T1 Ponder, T2 Duress (taking Misdirection), Cabal Therapy hitting my two Brainstorms. Ouch.

Then I lost to another friend playing Sneak and Show. He just 2-0'd me, as we don't have any way to disrupt his mana and are forced to simply try countering one of the 8 win spells.

The UWR Delver matchup was one I had won earlier in the day, but I mulled to 5 in game one and got Wasted and Stifled out of the game. Game two was pretty close as I had stablized with recurring Deathrite -> Misthollow fog/lifegain, but his Geist had already done its damage and I lost to a Delver that flipped to Lightning Bolt.

I plan on writing an article here soon, perhaps this week. I'll post that I do.

Maindeck:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Fierce Empath
2 Vendilion Cliques
4 Misthollow Griffin
1 Aethersnipe
1 Grislebrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Manipulate Fate

4 Food Chain
1 Sylvan Library

2 Misdirection
4 Force of Will


4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant catacombs
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Forest
2 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard:
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Thoughtseize
2 Divert


~~

Changes:
-1 Island, +1 Swamp
MAYBE -1 Griffin, +1 something -- the only benefit of having four was having an easy card to side out.

[nedleeds]

Most of the cards we're talking about suffer from being fairly bad cards alone, but using Clique for this purpose is actually a really good idea. It supplies you with more beats, fuel for the combo, and as aforementioned, guards against Abrupt Decay. I think that might be the answer here!


8 mana dorks in a combo deck over 8+ rounds seems like you'll get so many bad hands with mana dorks and no business.

Manipulate fate should just be a 4 of, it's Demonic Tutor + Draw a card for one part of your 2 card combo which is Food Chain + Griffin. I know the glory is having Empath into Emrakul (or Emrakul). But just casting 4 Griffins (and whatever else is in your hand) isn't bad either.

[MaximumC]

I went 6-3 yesterday at the SCG Legacy Open in Minneapolis, losing to Storm, Sneak and Show and UWR Delver. I moneyed but would've preferred 7-2. :)

~~

Changes:
-1 Island, +1 Swamp
MAYBE -1 Griffin, +1 something -- the only benefit of having four was having an easy card to side out.

Nice showing! I really do think we're honing in on a build that is stable enough to compete in the Legacy metagame. Your deck doesn't play any bad cards. Even if you're playing Food Chain as acceleration, that's fine, since your top end has some nasty fliers.

Which sideboard cards did you find effective? Did Sylvan Library do anything for you? Did you manage to live the dream and Misdirect an Abrupt Decay during the day?

I think you probably could go down to 3 Griffin if you have two Manipulate Fate, but then I'd also look at cutting a Misdirection or Force, perhaps, since you'd less often get the dream play of pitching a Griffin. On balance, I like the Four Griff plan better, but I'm open to change...



I lost to Jake Xu playing Storm in three rounds. He got 2nd place in the tourney. Game three he opens on T1 Ponder, T2 Duress (taking Misdirection), Cabal Therapy hitting my two Brainstorms. Ouch.


Did you have something to pitch? I almost always will Misdirect a Duress or Thoughtseize after turn 1, because it usually means they are trying to open a hole for something bad to happen. And paying two cards for their two cards is great when you get the best card in their hand out of the deal.


8 mana dorks in a combo deck over 8+ rounds seems like you'll get so many bad hands with mana dorks and no business.

Manipulate fate should just be a 4 of, it's Demonic Tutor + Draw a card for one part of your 2 card combo which is Food Chain + Griffin. I know the glory is having Empath into Emrakul (or Emrakul). But just casting 4 Griffins (and whatever else is in your hand) isn't bad either.

I'd be with you if we were still playing Wall of Roots and Birds of Paradise, but when you play Noble Hierarch and Deathrite Shaman, your mana dorks can actually present a legitimate threat all on their own. That's the beauty of not playing with bad cards. A hand with lands, mana dorks, and maybe a dig spell is totally keepable if you don't think you need to combo off turn 2 to win the match.

[kingtk3]

...
Did you have something to pitch? I almost always will Misdirect a Duress or Thoughtseize after turn 1, because it usually means they are trying to open a hole for something bad to happen. And paying two cards for their two cards is great when you get the best card in their hand out of the deal.
...

You cannot misdirect a duress since it says "target opponent".

[metamet]

You cannot misdirect a duress since it says "target opponent".

Yeah, this. I did misdirect some Cabal Therapies since it was worth me getting the information and preventing them from getting.

Best Misdirects and Diverts generally involved Bolt and one of their creatures. :)

[kingtk3]

I find nothing better than diverting touraches :)

[nevilshute]

Can't say how happy I am to see that this thread is still alive and that there are still people chaining :) After taking an extended break from this deck and picking up ANT I've recently had a chance to sit down with my Food Chain deck and look it over.

I've decided to revert back to the old UG version of this deck. Trying to make it less mid-rangey and more straight up combo. I've built a version with 5 Sol-lands, Intuition and a heavier counterpackage than I've previously tried running 4x force, 3x pierce and 2x misdirection. Haven't had a chance to take it by any tournaments yet though.

@metamet: how has Quirion Dryad been working out for you? I remember trying it out when I was first playing this deck and feeling like it somewhat underwhelmed me. It was occasionally nice as a sort of off-beat alternate win con, but as a beater I remember feeling like it was often too slow/vulnerable. I didn't, however, stick with it for a very long time, and as it was in an early shell of the deck that might have something to do with it :)

[germain]

Spellskite is good vs abrupt decay.

[grokh]

Ah ... i'll always remember when my opponent playing Jund, in the 2nd game, had Sylvan library on board, me having Food chain + Rest in peace.

He tried Abrupt decay on Food chain and i misdirected it on his Sylvan library LOL

[nevilshute]

Hey guys. Long time no Food Chain :)

I've been playing a bunch of ANT in the mean time but Food Chain was never far from my heart.

I've been thinking a lot about the deck lately and mean to put it together again and play it at my LGS soon. For the moment I'd like to not talk about the exact build but more on the deck's strengths and weaknesses over all and what they mean to how we play and how we sideboard. The strengths and weaknesses, of course, also influence deck design and if this opens up for new design space then awesome. But for the time being let's pretend we are playing with what I'd like to think of as a "stock list" looking something like:

Blue:
4x Force of Wil
2x Misdirection
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Misthollow Griffin
3x Manipulate Fate
1x Aethersnipe
1x Intuition

Green:
4x Food Chain
3x Fierce Empath
2x Wall of Blossoms

Black:
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Duress
1x Griselbrand

Multi:
4x Deathrite Shamana

Colorless:
Emrakul, the Food Chains Torn

Lands:
2x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp
2x Ancient Tomb
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Verdant Catacombs

Now we might argue over Baleful Strix over Blossoms. How many Fates, the hand disruption over spell pierces, what secondary fatty besides Emmy etc, but let's assume that we are all playing some variation of this list.

Okay, so what is the deck? A combo deck is the obvious answer, but I think we can all agree that we lack the speed of many other combo decks. Combo decks are usually judged on three parameters: speed, consistency and means with which to protect it self. Where are we in terms of these three parameters?

Speed: Slower than most if not all of the tier 1 combo decks. Yes we can go off on turn two but this rarely happens. Even if you build your deck to have a better shot at this it will rarely happen.

Consistency: Less consistent than some if not all of the best combo decks out there. I think this is mainly down to us being dependent on Food Chain which we only have 4 copies of and, depending on the build, have few or no means to tutor up.

Protection: Well here I'd say we're equal to most if not all tier 1 combo decks. Running Griffins makes it very straight forward to run Force of Wills (and Misdirections imo). We also have the choice of running maindeck hand disruption. We can supplement this with extra protection in the board.

So where does that leave us? We come up short in two out of three parameters. Well it leaves us with a sometimes-viable beatdown plan with our griffins as well as the utility the Deathrite Shaman offers. This is not insignificant but at the same time it probably doesn't make up for being both slower and a little less consistent.

What can be done about this? Well we could try and work in a tutor for the Food Chain. We already have a disgustingly good tutor for our Griffins in Manipulate Fate, but Food Chain tutors are less obvious. Some (including myself) have tried fiddling around with Enlightened Tutor, but as it means splashing for white, a color that doesn't really offer us anything else relevant, it's not really where we want to be. I've tried most things, from Ancestral Knowledge to Plunge into Darkness and it's all been clumsy and underwhelming. I'm trying a singleton Intuition at the moment and am undecided on it. Other than that it seems we'll have to rely on cantrips to find our Food Chains.

I'd very much like an updated primer. I'd like to address how we do against different matchups to better hone in on where we might need to improve the deck.

I'm ready to accept that this deck won't ever be tier one. Probably not even tier 1,5. But I'd love to get it into tier 1,5-2 territory where we might see it a bit more often and where it might steal a tournament win here and there. I'm thinking it could end up belonging in the same mention as decks like 12-post and Hive Mind but I might be wrong.

I'll come back later and try to chip in with some matchup analyses or feedback on others' attempts at the same :)

[tsabo_tavoc]

How about the tutor choice from the primer? +3 Drift of Phantasms, +1 Misthollow Griffin, -1 Intuition, -1 Fierce Empath, -2 Wall of Blossoms

[DragoFireheart]

So is keeping Tarmogoyf a go or no go?

How about Jace? Or did the Griffin take his CMC slot?

EDIT: Could also run Glimpse of Nature and Laboratory maniac.

[nevilshute]

I went to a 35 person Bazaar of Moxen Trial at my LGS and ended up top-8ing which in itself was okay, but especially in the light of me having to leave when the last round commenced and therefor conceding without playing.

My list can be found here: http://mtgpulse.com/event/14323#202791 :)

It was on the same night as the weekly legacy tournament and the store had combined the two meaning the tournament was a 6-round swiss, standings.

Round one: I met a lands player which was a fairly decent match up for me I think. Won 2-0

Round two: met mono green infect and won 2-0. Was a very fast deck and needed both my hand disruption and force of wills to win game 1. Game 2 went smoother.

Round three: met a sort of homebrewed monoblue affinity deck. My opponent was given a game loss due to the judge discovering he had a banned card in his deck. It was replaced with a basic land and we started game 2 with me leading 1-0. I got mana screwed and needed to force both a tezzeret the seeker and a phyrexian metamorph. I got Wall of Blossoms down to act as a blocker and was eventually able to draw out of my screw and combo off. 2-0.

Round four: met ANT (the subsequent winner of the tournament) and lost 0-2. I made a bad play error in game 2 where I forgot to activate my Deathrite Shaman during EoT in a turn where my opponent had tanked for quite a while. It was especially problematic as I should and would have exiled his one tutor in the graveyard. I had to pass the turn and he drew another tutor and was able to go off and win. I'm not saying it was certain I would have won the game otherwise but things were looking decent as I had just resolved a griffin and had the now-active shaman with my opponent at 14 life.

Round five: met Maverick with Dark Depths / stage combo. Won 2-1. Not much to say about this really. My opponent is a really good player, but it felt very winnable.

Round six: I knew from the start that I wouldn't be able to stay for the last round. When pairings were called I hoped that I was going to be paired against someone who, like myself, wasn't going to the BoM and would not need to win-and-in for the byes. At 4-1 a draw would be enough for both of us to end up in the regular money prizes. When I saw I was paired up against Thomas Enevoldsen (winner of Grand Prix Strasbourg and Death and Taxes aficionado) I knew he wasn't going to want to draw. I asked him anyway and he very politely said no. I told him he was getting the win then, as I had to leave and wished him good luck for the Bazaar :)

Had we played I'm not sure who would have won, but him being so proficient with his deck I'm putting him as the favourite. It's not the worst match up and I have stuff in the board like Golgari Charm and Abrupt Decay to counter his hatebears, but 4x Phyrexian Revoker mainboard makes game one hard. We have played twice before and our score is 1-1 on that account. As you can see he finished second due to me conceding.

In terms of my list I'm quite happy with it, but I saw a LOT of tempo decks there and have decided to go:

- 1 Misdirection
- 1 Duress

+2 Baleful Strix

To address this. When testing before the tournament the Lim-Dûl's Vault seemed very good, but I actually didn't get to cast it once during the tournament so I can't really say anything about it. Will keep it in for now :)

[grokh]

Hi,

I just played a tournament on Tuesday and i had some strange experience :

I haven't been comboing with Food chain during all the tournament (I mean i haven't had a Food chain loop until Emrakul, the Aeons torn), but won all games i won by attacking with a recursive Misthollow griffin. Recursive with Deathrite shaman or Food chain.

Attacking with unremovable 3/3 Fly is real powerful and that's why i'm now wondering is the core of the deck could be :
4 Food chain
4 Deathrite shaman
4 Misthollow griffin
4 Misdirection
4 Force of will

Nope ?

[grokh]

Hi,

Just wondered, has somebody tested Phantasmal image or has it been discussed here ?

[Holden1669]

Seeing Aluren do well at the last SCG Open made me want to try Food Chain again. So I threw a deck together with Thoughtseizes, Baleful Strix, and other cards that you can imagine and it felt clunky. After a little more thought I tried this and have won all five matches with the new build in the Tournament Practice room on MTGO (10-1 in games against Mono Red Sneak Show, Manaless Dredge, Oops All Spells, Miracles, and Enchantress). I mean, let's not get too excited about this random sampling against decks without countermagic (except Miracles) or anything. But the deck is fun and can win. And they certainly don't expect it.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe

3 Coiling Oracle
1 Lim-Dul's Vault

4 Food Chain
4 Fierce Empath

3 Misthollow Griffin

4 Force of Will

1 Aethersnipe
1 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs

sideboard
1 Extractor Demon
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Swan Song
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Submerge


The reason why Coiling Oracle is better than Baleful Strix in this deck is that you want the potential to ramp your mana more than you want to keep the card drawn a secret. Also, while blocking and trading with a threat is awesome most of the time you actually can use the Oracle to speed up your combo once you have the Food Chain down. Even if you plan to keep the Strix around it's a magnet for all kinds of removal. Your opponent is more likely to ignore the Snake Elf Druid until it's too late.

The biggest issue, of course, is finding (and resolving) a Food Chain. You have a lot of cantrips but it may be good to try another Lim-Dul's Vault, Intuition, or Drift of Phantasms.

I would also love to get another Probe or Oracle in the deck but I'm not sure what to cut. Fierce Empath is great and either starts the Empath -> Aethersnipe bouncing Empath -> Empath again -> Griselbrand chain or just grabs Emrakul if you already have a Misthollow Griffin in hand, play, or exiled (perhaps with Force of Will for value).

In the sideboard, Extractor Demon is for matchups where they bring in Ensnaring Bridge or something like it. I boarded it in against Enchantress but didn't use it as he kept a hand with Choke and two Ethersworn Canonist (I Forced the Choke and just attacked with Griselbrand instead of Emrakul because of Canonist. Still worked). Swan Song seems generally good since we shouldn't care about an opposing 2/2 all that much. Though possibly Thoughtseize would be better (certainly against Abrupt Decay, which breaks our combo). I think the sideboard is weak against decks that attack with a lot of creatures (um, half the format?) but I'm not sure as I haven't played against one with this build yet. Probably the Submerge and definitely the Vendilion Clique can go. Actually, maybe those would be good matchups for Baleful Strix to come in. Or Tarmogoyf, maybe, to give us a better plan B.

[nevilshute]

Nice to see you playing the deck :) After a quick glance I'd like to ask why you aren't playing any Manipulate Fates? It's a pretty remarkable tutor + value. 4 Empaths also seem like one to many, but that could be a case of personal taste of couse :)


Seeing Aluren do well at the last SCG Open made me want to try Food Chain again. So I threw a deck together with Thoughtseizes, Baleful Strix, and other cards that you can imagine and it felt clunky. After a little more thought I tried this and have won all five matches with the new build in the Tournament Practice room on MTGO (10-1 in games against Mono Red Sneak Show, Manaless Dredge, Oops All Spells, Miracles, and Enchantress). I mean, let's not get too excited about this random sampling against decks without countermagic (except Miracles) or anything. But the deck is fun and can win. And they certainly don't expect it.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe

3 Coiling Oracle
1 Lim-Dul's Vault

4 Food Chain
4 Fierce Empath

3 Misthollow Griffin

4 Force of Will

1 Aethersnipe
1 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs

sideboard
1 Extractor Demon
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Swan Song
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Submerge


The reason why Coiling Oracle is better than Baleful Strix in this deck is that you want the potential to ramp your mana more than you want to keep the card drawn a secret. Also, while blocking and trading with a threat is awesome most of the time you actually can use the Oracle to speed up your combo once you have the Food Chain down. Even if you plan to keep the Strix around it's a magnet for all kinds of removal. Your opponent is more likely to ignore the Snake Elf Druid until it's too late.

The biggest issue, of course, is finding (and resolving) a Food Chain. You have a lot of cantrips but it may be good to try another Lim-Dul's Vault, Intuition, or Drift of Phantasms.

I would also love to get another Probe or Oracle in the deck but I'm not sure what to cut. Fierce Empath is great and either starts the Empath -> Aethersnipe bouncing Empath -> Empath again -> Griselbrand chain or just grabs Emrakul if you already have a Misthollow Griffin in hand, play, or exiled (perhaps with Force of Will for value).

In the sideboard, Extractor Demon is for matchups where they bring in Ensnaring Bridge or something like it. I boarded it in against Enchantress but didn't use it as he kept a hand with Choke and two Ethersworn Canonist (I Forced the Choke and just attacked with Griselbrand instead of Emrakul because of Canonist. Still worked). Swan Song seems generally good since we shouldn't care about an opposing 2/2 all that much. Though possibly Thoughtseize would be better (certainly against Abrupt Decay, which breaks our combo). I think the sideboard is weak against decks that attack with a lot of creatures (um, half the format?) but I'm not sure as I haven't played against one with this build yet. Probably the Submerge and definitely the Vendilion Clique can go. Actually, maybe those would be good matchups for Baleful Strix to come in. Or Tarmogoyf, maybe, to give us a better plan B.

[Holden1669]

Nice to see you playing the deck :) After a quick glance I'd like to ask why you aren't playing any Manipulate Fates? It's a pretty remarkable tutor + value. 4 Empaths also seem like one to many, but that could be a case of personal taste of couse :)

Thanks for the input. Yeah, that's a good point. I had 2 Manipulate Fate (and 3 Empaths) in the earlier version of the deck and probably didn't test them enough before I dropped them. The reason that I dropped them is because it tutors for only one card (effectively) and I was more concerned with getting Food Chain. Or something.

On one hand, unless you have Emrakul it is better to have three 3/3 flyer that they can't get rid of than one 3/3 flyer that they can't get rid of. But on the other hand Fierce Empath goes to get Emrakul and at that point you'll be fine with just one Misthollow.

That was my logic, anyway, but I'd like to test with two Manipulate Fate and 3 Fierce Empath. I'm not sure what additional card to cut, though. The Lim-Dul's Vault is definitely a possibility but that card can save your ass and get exactly what you need. Any suggestions?

Edit: I have dropped the Cliques and Submerge from the board and added 4 Baleful Strix. So far these seem better.

[grokh]

Hi,

I think i found a new combo with the deck, in the new Commander 2013 product :
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher !

So,what does he allows us to do ?

- You get 6 0/1 Kobolds tokens when you cast it, it means even if it's countered you'll get 6 0/1 Kobolds tokens, so you'll be able in worst case, to generate one mana of each color you'll need !!
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher is just AWESOME cos the effect is WHEN YOU CAST IT; i had misread the card and thought it was when he enters the battlefield, at the beginning :laugh:
- In the other case, if it's not countered, you'll be able to ramp for 7 manas of one color, by exiling Prossh, Skyraider of Kher plus 6 manas of every color needed, so a total of 13 manas, and this is a Huge ramp into Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or into every card you could have in hand at this moment, even if the card is dual-colored as Coiling oracle or Baleful strix
- Why casting Prossh, Skyraider of Kher if you have the Grffin ? Depends on the board, if your opponent has 2 Tarmogoyf and you just have a Misthollow griffin,but nothing in hand for comboing off, you'll still lose life from the 2nd Tarmogoyf cos having just 1Misthollow griffin. If you cast Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, you'll have the Prosh + 6 0/1 for blocking/ 6 0/1, depends if it has been countered or not
- Casting Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, a problem ? Just need to have some :b::r: mana in pool, if you play Baleful strix, the excedent of :b: mana will be reinvested into it, same for Imperial recruiter and the excedent of :r: mana if you play it. And if you're not playing both cards, the excedent of :b::r: mana will be used as colorless parts of your spells.

Just waiting for your opinions now !!

[nevilshute]

Hey Grokh,

Nice to see you're still brewin'. I have to say, though, that I think Prossh, Skyraider of Kher is wrong for this deck. So what does he do for us when he enters the battlefield? Nothing. At all. Why would we care about having a bomb that let's us cast Emrakul? If we have Emrakul in hand already we just cast him without Prossh and win. If we don't have Emrakul but Prossh then I'd rather have Prossh be either a Fierce Empath or Griselbrand.

I haven't played this deck for a while and probably won't for the next month or so, but I hope to play it soon after that :) How did your big tournament go? :)

[ryO!]

FYI here's a little bonus.
497 players "rogue" deck winning it.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=12104

hope you like it kudos for the winner & the nice list

[Holden1669]

FYI here's a little bonus.
497 players "rogue" deck winning it.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=12104

hope you like it kudos for the winner & the nice list

That is very interesting. I have liked playing black for discard, strix, and lim-dul's vault in my list but I was much too dependent on finding, resolving, and protecting Food Chain. I like the diversified threats with Natural Order plan a lot. The only thing that strikes me as kind of weird are the four basic islands with the six green mana guys and the two Progenitus. But I can't criticise. Looks awesome. I'm excited to try it out.

I wonder when the Show and Tell package comes in. Whether it's to keep people off balance or if there are specific matchups.

[grokh]

That is very interesting. I have liked playing black for discard, strix, and lim-dul's vault in my list but I was much too dependent on finding, resolving, and protecting Food Chain. I like the diversified threats with Natural Order plan a lot. The only thing that strikes me as kind of weird are the four basic islands with the six green mana guys and the two Progenitus. But I can't criticise. Looks awesome. I'm excited to try it out.

I wonder when the Show and Tell package comes in. Whether it's to keep people off balance or if there are specific matchups.

Hi,

I think the Show and tell package comes in for having a transformal sideboard-plan, on game 2, you become a Show and Tell/Omniscience deck, so your opponent has sideboarded only dead cards.

I'm working on a Food chain + Aluren plan on my side, i'll post a list soon