Where to apply Cavern of Souls

[Antonius]

Where to Apply Cavern of Souls (http://www.westcoastlegacy.com/2012/examples-of-where-to-apply-cavern-of-souls/)

Short overview of what I think is an extremely relevant AVR card for Legacy. And some homebrew lists featuring it.

[keys]

Noooooo! All your tech belong to me.

But seriously, good article.

[Vacrix]

Turn 1, Cavern of Souls, Goblin Lackey?

I think it will get played in Goblins to good effect. Elves might enjoy it as well because then your opponent cannot counter the lords.

It could be played just about anywhere though, especially with creatures that cost 2 because they usually are juicy Spell Snare targets, otherwise, Force and Daze are the only countermagic you frequently run into as Pierce cannot target creatures. Dark Confidant, Snapcaster, Goyf, SFM...

[Malchar]

Goblins already had aether vial, and lackey still dies to every spot removal spell ever. I'm sure goblins will use cavern, but it won't improve the deck that much. I see it being used to the greatest effect in the decks that are already good, like maverick and blue tempo/control.

Maverick might have to change a few of their creatures to optimize creature types, but just running a few as knight targets seems fine. The fact that it still makes colorless is awesome.

Blue based tempo/control with a cavern on humans seems pretty decent with lavamancer, delver, snapcaster, dark confidant, etc. The only disadvantage here is that you can't use the land to daze with.

[DragoFireheart]

Goblins already had aether vial, and lackey still dies to every spot removal spell ever. I'm sure goblins will use cavern, but it won't improve the deck that much. I see it being used to the greatest effect in the decks that are already good, like maverick and blue tempo/control.


Goblins can cast that bounce goblin without fear of it being countered. This is huge for the Reanimator/Sneak attack decks.

Also, turn 1 Lackey that is immune to counters is amazing.

[TsumiBand]

Goblins probably isn't mentioned because Goblins doesn't lose to countermagic (by itself). For one thing, Aether Vial is a card, and for another it has 8 playable Lackey effects now and Forcing a turn 1 Lackey has never been THAT big a dick kick to Gobbos, even less so when there's Warren Instigator coming down next.

While uncounterable Stingscourger does sound like a cromulent play, I doubt that is going to make games versus Maverick, or any other deck that can poop out big guys left and right, much better than they already are(n't).

[DragoFireheart]

Goblins probably isn't mentioned because Goblins doesn't lose to countermagic (by itself). For one thing, Aether Vial is a card, and for another it has 8 playable Lackey effects now and Forcing a turn 1 Lackey has never been THAT big a dick kick to Gobbos, even less so when there's Warren Instigator coming down next.

While uncounterable Stingscourger does sound like a cromulent play, I doubt that is going to make games versus Maverick, or any other deck that can poop out big guys left and right, much better than they already are(n't).

Goblins is about 50/50 with Maverick. Loses to storm. CoS will help it against Sneak Attack and Reanimator.

That leaves it Blade Control and Dredge. How well does goblins do against those two?

[AngryTroll]

Four color Slivers is actually exciting. The slivers worth running are spread pretty evenly across UWG, and Hibernation Sliver is a pretty good reason to run black. That list in the article is missing Daze, Force, and some Spell Pierces, however.

[joemauer]

Goblins is about 50/50 with Maverick. Loses to storm. CoS will help it against Sneak Attack and Reanimator.

That leaves it Blade Control and Dredge. How well does goblins do against those two?

Not sure how favorable Blade Control was before Caverns, but I believe it will be in Goblins favor with Caverns.

Goblins versus dredge is hopeless.

Saying Caverns is bad for Goblins because they already have Aether Vial is misleading. Now Goblins essentially have 8 Aether Vials. Also, Force of Will on Aether Vial always sucked. Don't know if Caverns of Souls can make goblins a top contender though.

[DragoFireheart]

Don't know if Caverns of Souls can make goblins a top contender though.

Ignoring dredge and storm (which was nothing new in the past), I have faith Goblins will make some sort of come-back. 8 Aether Vial effects is huge when half of the DTB runs Countermagic.

[bowvamp]

I think that Cavern could actually get applied to Maverick. It's got a high number of human creatures already, so why not just increase the number of splash colors and play "maverick + goodstuff"?
Here's a list of creatures that are able to be splashed with Cavern:
Dark Confidant
Grim Lavamancer
Imperial Recruiter

[Aggro_zombies]

Ignoring dredge and storm (which was nothing new in the past), I have faith Goblins will make some sort of come-back. 8 Aether Vial effects is huge when half of the DTB runs Countermagic.
This isn't a Vial effect, though - and it's not even close. When most of your guys are 1/1 or 2/2 dorks with some utility tacked on, countermagic loses its luster. The best thing about Vial was the free mana and instant-speed Goblins aspect: you could Vial in a Warchief on turn four and still have plenty of mana up to cast other creatures, maintain a Port lock, or whatever else you wanted to do. Cavern doesn't let you do that.

@Tony: the biggest problem I see with that Wizard deck is that it gets mauled by Maverick. The guys in it all blow on offense or on defense.

[bartmanqc]

i'll try it in my welder MUD deck. T1 Chalice on 1, T2 Cavern naming Goblin, drop Welder...

[death]

Where to Apply Cavern of Souls (http://www.westcoastlegacy.com/2012/examples-of-where-to-apply-cavern-of-souls/)

Where is Merfolk?

[jrw1985]

If a tribal deck wasn't good enough to be in the format already, Cavern of Souls isn't going to make it a competitive deck. It's just too narrow, Waste-able, and can really jank up your gameplan if you want to cast spells that aren't creatures.

What does Cavern Actually do?

It lets you cast 1 uncounterable creature of the chosen type per turn.

That's it. It doesn't make all your creatures uncounterable, it doesn't make 1 creature of ANY type uncounterable, it doesn't give them flash, nor hexproof.

What makes Caverns good in Goblins is that Goblins needs large numbers of critters in play to gain an edge, so making every creature stick is more important. The creatures that stick can then cheat into play more creatures. The advantage builds on itself.

In a deck like Maverick however, Cavern can force through a Knight, but it does nothing for a Sword, and it actually makes it more difficult for the deck to cast support creatures that aren't Humans (like Ooze, Scryb Ranger, Quasali). Cavern really makes Maverick MORE susceptible to mana denial because the opponent can always attack non-cavern lands. You don't want to be stuck with a StP and SFM in hand and a Forest and Cavern (naming Humans) in play. Seems like a problem.

[jrw1985]

Where is Merfolk?

Was Merfolk losing because of counterspells?

[Julian23]

Was Merfolk losing because of counterspells?

If anything, it was winning because their opponent played them.

But yeah, of course, Merfolk benefits from it. However, only slightly. The problem for swarming strategies is generally not resolving their threats but dealing with the opponent's answers.

[Aggro_zombies]

If anything, it was winning because their opponent played them.

But yeah, of course, Merfolk benefits from it. However, only slightly. The problem for swarming strategies is generally not resolving their threats but dealing with the opponent's answers.
Merfolk in particular suffered from being an experiment in how shitty you could make a mono-colored deck's manabase. Adding this land over islands is probably not the greatest idea.

[Lord Seth]

I think that Cavern could actually get applied to Maverick. It's got a high number of human creatures already, so why not just increase the number of splash colors and play "maverick + goodstuff"?
Here's a list of creatures that are able to be splashed with Cavern:
Dark Confidant
Grim Lavamancer
Imperial RecruiterHow are you going to splash Grim Lavamancer with Cavern? Cavern can't activate its ability, which is the whole reason anyone plays Grim Lavamancer in the first place.

[feline]

More like, Where NOT to apply cavern of souls >^,^<

I was looking at deadguy ale recently and when i was, I was like "o yea that new land, let me see how many creatures share a type"

it's pretty cool when looking at a deck, now I can think "wait let me check creature types real fast" lol, grats to cavern of souls

and for me, I will be replacing 4 mountains in my goblin deck for 4 cavern of souls, since goblins is just that, a buncha goblins, mana sources, and 4 aether vials, I have no problems keeping the vial's when i can still cast vial from the land as it also taps for just a regular colorless mana under the worst conditions, well save for having 3 of them out and someone goes "price of progress your game away?" lol >^,^<

Though I do have to admit, if aether vial is basically "replaced" by cavern of souls, I'll just add 4 more goblins, or goblin tribal spells, like tarfire or whatever else when i look up anything with "goblin" in its subtype, lol.

[Vacrix]

I wonder if Cavern will get played along side Nether Void. Granted, you might run into other decks that play Cavern but you could also play stuff like Wasteland Sinkhole.

[luckme10]

With Cavern of Souls, Ancient Ziggurat, City of Brass, Reflecting Pool, and say Thran Quarry or vesuva, aren't we starting to hit a threshold for a 5 color rainbow land deck? Don't get me wrong, fetchlands are great for brainstorm and land filtering but a tribal deck that has access to all 5 colors with ease, ie a deck comprised of the best humans of all time, could be worth not playing any fetchlands.

1cc
Aether Vial
Grim Lavamancer
Mother of Runes
Noble Hierarch
Student of Warfare?
Champion of The Parish?

2cc
Dark Confidant
Mayor of Avabruck?

3cc
Imperial Recruiter?
Eternal Witness?

[Aggro_zombies]

I wonder if Cavern will get played along side Nether Void. Granted, you might run into other decks that play Cavern but you could also play stuff like Wasteland Sinkhole.
Getting to BB for a noncreature spell in your Cavern of Souls deck seems a bit iffy when you're also running Wastelands.

[Malakai]

Does your deck need to resolve creatures, and are your opponents directing countermagic towards them?

If the answer is yes, you want to play this card, and it is worth possibly changing your threat base to accommodate Cavern of Souls.

[Vacrix]

Getting to BB for a noncreature spell in your Cavern of Souls deck seems a bit iffy when you're also running Wastelands.
Perhaps but Pox runs Mishra's Factories and Wastelands and they don't have problems getting to BB for Small Pox, BBB for Pox, BB for Sinkhole, etc. In that kind of deck, I figure that Void will be a hard lock against deck that aren't playing Vial.

[dahcmai]

Well, you have to just stop thinking about what it would be cool to jam it into and think about what that uncounterability or the mana fixing would be good for.

Meathooks could stand the mana fixing, but I'm not even sure that deck is a viable choice anymore.

Other than that obvious one, there's not much out there that doesn't already have a fairly solid mana base.


So that leaves the uncounterable part.

What do you really, really, want to not get countered?


12 post has a couple of things. Namely a large Giant.

Goblin Ringleader or Lacky are fairly good choices.

Death and Taxes oddly enough might want a Thalia to go through. I could see that.


There's really not all that much other than that. I think it's going to end up a niche card like Karakas that has it's limited usage, but it's good when you want it.

[Vacrix]

TurboEldrazi might want to play a singleton. Granted, Emrakul is uncounterable but uncounterable Primeval Titans is nuts. Sometimes all it takes is getting those 2 lands when it comes into play.

[Final Fortune]

Aside from Goblins, I think Cavern of Souls has limited applications in Elves because the colored spells can be cast off of uncounterable Llanowar Elves and Priestess of Titania, perhaps as a SB card vs. U.dec?

Another Tribe that may be applicable is Wizards, but perhaps that's better in Modern.

[TsumiBand]

The other dumb about just throwing the land in all higgeldy-piggeldy, especially when it comes to decks like Goblins, is that now you're trading resilience against 4x Wasteland for resilience against 4x FoW. Sometimes, that's going to really not be a very good trade at all.

Counterslivers I could see taking this, but that deck's problem is not that its guys get countered, it's that the deck isn't Merfolk. And Merfolk isn't all that interested in this land. I mean I see why people will try it, if you want to try to guarantee that your threat will resolve in the face of Force/Daze/etc, sure fine play your questionable tribal strategy (maverick not included in 'questionable tribal strategy').

Maybe the real winners here are the decks that have nothing better to do than cast guys. How scary IS uncounterable Thoughtweft Trio, anyway....?

[Julian23]

In Elves? Why would you counter Llanowar Elves.

Maybe this is gonna be the card that eventually teaches people that "U.deck" and counterspells are much weaker than they think.

[Vacrix]

In Elves? Why would you counter Llanowar Elves.

Maybe this is gonna be the card that eventually teaches people that "U.deck" and counterspells are much weaker than they think.
You can Daze it early to slow them down, besides, after that Daze is rather useless against Elves.

[Antonius]

I think it's rather obvious by now that Cavern of Souls could go into Goblins/Merfolk/Elves. However the ramifications and strategic considerations for what it does there is rather minimal when you consider that none of those decks have anything to lose by running it and don't really gain that much either. Neither of those decks have a hard time beating counterspells. Neither of those three have much to gain by adding colors and color fixing. Adding Cavern to these decks deserves about as much consideration as adding fetchlands to burn. In short: there's nothing really interesting to debate about it. just do it.


All those trying to push Cavern on Maverick are missing all the points I made in the first paragraph: Cavern isn't very good with Knight on the field. If you've already got a knight on the field against a deck with counters, you're probably ahead and (rarely) give a shit if your opponent can counter another dude you play. In other words, there's not much to gain from pulling a cavern out of your deck. If you already have a cavern on the field, then that's one less land you can turn into wasteland or a fetchland or something to grow your knight. Dissynergy.
Cavern also makes two very important, irreplacable parts of your deck (ooze and pridemage) worse. Further, if you've played maverick and watched people play maverick (I have, a lot) you'd know that the only drama that deck has with itself is its manabase. Not drawing enough, getting the double wasteland no-color opener, etc. How much worse does that become when you add in a land that can't cast Swords or Library and for the most part can't help you with Ooze and Pridemage?
And all these potential pitfalls for what? to gain even more percentage against blue decks that you crush with your threat density anyways? There's no sense in that.

@Luckme10: How could a rainbow land human deck ever be better than 5-color slivers? Tell me, how does any deck defeat this pile in combat?

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 City of Brass
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah

4 Aether Vial

4 Sidewinder Sliver
3 Spined Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
3 Phantasmal Image
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Hunter Sliver
1 Clot Sliver
1 Hibernation Sliver
3 Homing Sliver
1 Essence Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Mirror Entity

You've got a tutor for some ringers (lifelink to race, regeneration to just win), 8 lords, 7 lords in combat (rampage and flanking slivers), you choose blockers and your flanking kills through mom or whatever other protection they can run. And if they're packing sweepers then you just go to the boards and defeat them with an uncounterable combo of hibernation sliver + overlord or queen.

That said, I think the bant version, with removal and standstills to reload is ultimately better than running 5 color. But why would you want to play force of will, daze, spell pierce, etc? What are you afraid of? Infernal tutors, which <5% of the format is casting? The Show and Tell you could just beat with Phantasmal Image? Reanimator has Elesh Norn (still beatable with phantasmal image) and blanks against you. Wrath of God and Engineered Explosives are the only things you care about and you can beat that by just playing smart.

Once you take out the drawback of all these scattered colors slivers are some of the highest quality creatures you can get. Rely on that to win games. not on bullshit.

If you do want to go with humans, I think that the Grand Wizard Mangara and the rest of the white power team is the best way to go. The only good humans not in there are Bob and humans that don't fit the strategy. How are you going to feed a lavamancer when your entire deck is permanents? How effective is snapcaster when you've only got four instants in your deck? And what can you expect KotR to do in a deck with only six plains to chomp on? Just go around the opposing KotR with Mirran Crusader. You're good.

[Koby]

I'm going to make a mockery of people running Cavern of Souls in Maverick. It's about as good as drawing Autumn's Veil against Belcher, or drawing Swords to Plowshares against Landstill.

You're not going to be playing against dedicated blue Counters in more than 10% of the time, and against decks with counterspells more than 35% of the time. Have fun being at a disadvantage against every other deck.

[Ozymandias]

To be fair, I cannot tell you how many times I have had a Mishra's Factory plowed, playing as Landstill. So expect Cavern of Souls in Maverick.

[Koby]

To be fair, I cannot tell you how many times I have had a Mishra's Factory plowed, playing as Landstill. So expect Cavern of Souls in Maverick.

What? How does Cavern of Souls help Maverick beat Standstill? The issue has never been "counter target spell" but rather "draw 3 cards" followed by "kill your team".

[spacecaptain]

What about a deck that runs 4x Cavern, 4x Aether Vial and a bunch of hexproof men? Throw in some pump (cheap equipment/enchantments) or some counterspells or some removal, maybe even cheap shapeshifters (do they work with Cavern?). Your men will be uncounterable and practically un-removable.

[DLifshitz]

Perhaps but Pox runs Mishra's Factories and Wastelands and they don't have problems getting to BB for Small Pox, BBB for Pox, BB for Sinkhole, etc. In that kind of deck, I figure that Void will be a hard lock against deck that aren't playing Vial.

Pox does not care about its creatures being countered because they return from the graveyard to the battlefield (Nether Spirit, Bloodghast) or to owner's hand (Gigapede). Pox just doesn't benefit from Nether Void + Cavern of Souls any more than it does from Nether Void alone.

[bowvamp]

I think that Cavern will see play as a 4-of at the very least in my Maverick list. Sure, not many decks run counters. But that doesn't mean I can't benefit from a land that's strictly better than a Savannah (when not fetching a Savannah that is...)
re: Lavamancer's ability
Cavern can cast lavamancer. Sure, it can't activate the ability, but presumably you're running some other red sources in your 60.

[DragoFireheart]

I feel like many people are understating the power level of this new set.

[dragonwisdom]

ideas

The maverick comments are correct. Cavern of Souls can be a liability. Junk would be a great candidate for Cavern of Souls. First turn thought seize/Iok their removal spell, next turn uncounterable dark confidant. Game over. I am not sure that I would play 4 as you cast many other spells in junk.

Another great deck would be cephalid breakfast. watch out for this deck. Cavern of souls gives this deck 8 vials.

[joemauer]

I feel like many people are understating the power level of this new set.

Many people feel like you are overstating the power level of this new set.

[luckme10]

The main point I was trying to make is that, supplemented with the other rainbow land generators, Cavern of Souls may be the tipping point for a Stable 5 color deck. Wasteland isn't as effective against you in these situations if it no longer functions to cut you off colors. I picked Humans because they're built for the sligh curve and are a tribe with continued support. But as you stated, and I listed, snapcaster and KotR have minimum uses in this type of deck.
So yes, meathooks is a good deck too, and likewise, I believe the 5 color plan becomes more stable as well with the majority rainbow land package.

[Vacrix]

Pox does not care about its creatures being countered because they return from the graveyard to the battlefield (Nether Spirit, Bloodghast) or to owner's hand (Gigapede). Pox just doesn't benefit from Nether Void + Cavern of Souls any more than it does from Nether Void alone.
Sure but I was referring primarily to the fact that decks like that can cast spells that cost BB and even BBB despite running both Factory and Wasteland.. and they also sacrifice quite a few of their own lands. I was referring to casting Sinkhole on the opponents Cavern under the Nether Void, not running Nether Void in Pox. The deck would obviously play different creatures than Ghast/Spirit.

[TsumiBand]

The main point I was trying to make is that, supplemented with the other rainbow land generators, Cavern of Souls may be the tipping point for a Stable 5 color deck. Wasteland isn't as effective against you in these situations if it no longer functions to cut you off colors. I picked Humans because they're built for the sligh curve and are a tribe with continued support. But as you stated, and I listed, snapcaster and KotR have minimum uses in this type of deck.
So yes, meathooks is a good deck too, and likewise, I believe the 5 color plan becomes more stable as well with the majority rainbow land package.

This much is relevant. I don't see it 'revitalizing' any decks in the way people think it will, but in a deck that isn't hung up on land types a painless City of Brass is nothing to snark at. As with many of the rare-and-up cards in this set, tastes great in EDH. Uncounterable commanders are pretty cool.

[markbris]

Sure but I was referring primarily to the fact that decks like that can cast spells that cost BB and even BBB despite running both Factory and Wasteland.. and they also sacrifice quite a few of their own lands. I was referring to casting Sinkhole on the opponents Cavern under the Nether Void, not running Nether Void in Pox. The deck would obviously play different creatures than Ghast/Spirit.

I don't get it? You're paying 5 to sinkhole their cavern while under nether void?

[Vacrix]

Are there any other creatures like Brain Gorgers where the opponent can pay some cost to counter the creature before it comes into play? If theres an under costed creature that can be countered by some extra cost, then it would certainly work well with Cavern. I don't know what key words to search in TheGatherer to find such a card though.

EDIT:
The only other one I could find was Phantasmagorian and obviously neither of those 2 cards is playable.

[DragoFireheart]

The main point I was trying to make is that, supplemented with the other rainbow land generators, Cavern of Souls may be the tipping point for a Stable 5 color deck. Wasteland isn't as effective against you in these situations if it no longer functions to cut you off colors. I picked Humans because they're built for the sligh curve and are a tribe with continued support. But as you stated, and I listed, snapcaster and KotR have minimum uses in this type of deck.
So yes, meathooks is a good deck too, and likewise, I believe the 5 color plan becomes more stable as well with the majority rainbow land package.

Wizards might be a better creature type. Grim Lavamancer, Dark Confidant, Snapcaster as somre good wizards.




Many people feel like you are overstating the power level of this new set.

Maybe I am. I wouldn't be honest with myself if I just agreed because the majority seem to be saying otherwise. It's not like this was the first time a lot of people said X card wouldn't be that good (Jace, Batterskull).

[Malchar]

The only problem with 5 color is that there aren't any good cards that require you to go 5 colors to cast them. Right off the bat, green doesn't contribute anything except a bunch of efficient creatures of different types, which immediately rules out using cavern of souls. Most of the good spells aren't creatures anyway, so cavern doesn't help except for reflecting pool. That said, it is still quite an interesting concept, I just don't know what such a deck would look like.

5 color slivers probably gains the most from this card, but I'm not convinced that it makes it good enough for it to be played again. Crystalline sliver is pretty impossible to answer in this scenario. Pox can theoretically kill it, but pox isn't exactly a defining force of the metagame. Maybe people will have to start using wrath of god again.

I think that nether void offers the best direct combo with cavern of souls. The problem here is that these cards don't want to be in the same deck. Pox/stax already just uses bloodghast or mishra's factory to kill. The whole point is that their creatures already have the ability to come back, which means that they're already good against counterspells.

You'd want to use the nether void combo in an aggro deck similarly to armageddon. In fact, they work nicely together. Perhaps some kind of w/b junk deck, as was previously suggested. You could try to go with stoneforge mystic and a kor tribal deck, or perhaps go for artificers using stoneforge and goblin welder, or probably just ignore stoneforge's tribe and use w/b humans or something good.

[Koby]

Slivers was pretty much always a dog to EE@2. EE is starting to see more play right now too, but not enough.

EDIT:
Let's stop beating around the bush. Allies are real. They're practically unstoppable right now.

[Ozymandias]

What? How does Cavern of Souls help Maverick beat Standstill? The issue has never been "counter target spell" but rather "draw 3 cards" followed by "kill your team".

No. I'm saying that people are dumb and therefore jamming Caverns where they should not be--much like plows against Landstill.

[from Cairo]

I think this card will be a nice addition to Goblins, and has potential to find a slot in other/future very creature heavy decks. The card definitely puts some design constraints on most other archetypes. I don't think it's color fixing can be leaned upon quite as much as some brewers are hoping it can be. IE. ripping hands of Fetch + Cavern of Souls != supporting a 4-5 color deck. Cavern doesn't cast a lot of the 1-2cc spells that define the format. IE I don't think it works in a Blue shell that great because those decks naturally are running 16+ non-creatures - Brainstorm, StP, Snare, 1cc discard, Bolts, etc. can't be cast with this land.

Slivers is still an awful deck.

[Final Fortune]

In Elves? Why would you counter Llanowar Elves.

Maybe this is gonna be the card that eventually teaches people that "U.deck" and counterspells are much weaker than they think.

Reading comprehension please, I said removing Forests and replacing them with Cavern of Souls isn't a problem because the deck can still cast colored spells with green mana produced by the Elves it resolves, the uncounterability aspect is specifically for Daze or the more relevant Elves and it's meant to be used primarily as a SB card. I think the card can assist Elves in its beat down strategy against control post-board.

[Julian23]

Yeah, still Elves might be one of the worst decks for it. There's hardly any deck where counterspells, especially Daze, are worse against. Wasting sideboard slots on a card to fight spells your opponent will side out anyways is a complete waste of slots.

[jrw1985]

EDIT:
Let's stop beating around the bush. Allies are real. They're practically unstoppable right now.

We need to get that kid to write another article about how bad Legacy is.

[Infinitium]

Yeah, still Elves might be one of the worst decks for it. There's hardly any deck where counterspells, especially Daze, are worse against. Wasting sideboard slots on a card to fight spells your opponent will side out anyways is a complete ways of slots.

This might still have a fit in elves since it blows through Chalice and Counterbalance (should either ever become relevant again), and it isn't like the deck lacks green sources for its other spells. I can see it getting played for that reason alone, especially as elves already run Arbor and Cradle to enable wasteland. It gets awkward with 1-land hands but those typically aren't the pinnacle of keepability anyhow (Quirion Ranger tricks nonwithstanding).

[Richard Cheese]

Best deck for Cavern is obviously Treefolk. All other suggestions are laughable.

[KevinTrudeau]

We need to get that kid to write another article about how bad Legacy is.

I'm glad someone else remembered that.

[joemauer]

This might still have a fit in elves since it blows through Chalice and Counterbalance (should either ever become relevant again), and it isn't like the deck lacks green sources for its other spells. I can see it getting played for that reason alone, especially as elves already run Arbor and Cradle to enable wasteland. It gets awkward with 1-land hands but those typically aren't the pinnacle of keepability anyhow (Quirion Ranger tricks nonwithstanding).

Julian23 is right. Caverns is bad in elves. The only spell you need to resolve is glimpse of nature and caverns can't cast that one.

Chalice can be circumvented with GSZ or fauna shaman for viridian shaman.
Counterbalance is currently dead.

Saying elves is susceptible to wasteland because of dryad and cradle is a joke. Dryad Arbor is a one of that can be protected with Quirion Ranger. Gaea's Cradle is a ritual spell in elves not a land. Keeping a hand with just Cradle is impossible. So yes Caverns does make elves more open to wasteland for no reason.

Furthermore, Caverns of Souls can't cast Wirewood Symbiote(typically) which is revelant since elves sometimes operates off one land. Also, Quirion Ranger becomes worst.

[DragoFireheart]

Best deck for Cavern is obviously Treefolk. All other suggestions are laughable.

Treefolk? How about Insects. Love me Giant Cockroach.

[klaus]

I'm intrigued by Cavern of Souls. This card will do a nice job at balancing out the super-blue meta.
Congratz Wizards!

[joemauer]

I'm intrigued by Cavern of Souls. This card will do a nice job at balancing out the super-blue meta.
Congratz Wizards!

Unless the land ends up just being used in snapcaster mirrors.

[Koby]

Unless the land ends up just being used in snapcaster mirrors.

Isn't this the fate of every broadly designed, anti-blue "tech"?
(See: Mental Misstep)

[Richard Cheese]

Treefolk? How about Insects. Love me Giant Cockroach.

Hah. Insects can't even come close to matching the synergy and raw power of the Ents. Leaf-Crowned Elder is a better Dark Confidant, Treefolk Harbinger is a better Worldly Tutor, Dungrove Elder is basically impossible for the format to deal with, and Doran, the Siege Tower shuts down all the most important threats in the format; Delver, Clique, and Hellspark Elemental just to name a few. Oh, and they can all be fetched up with GSZ.

I'm going to go ahead and say that Treefolk is the most powerful tribe in the history of the game, and continued support with new cards like Yew Spirit, Lumberknot, and Ghoultree just shows that WotC isn't dropping their support for the big guys any time soon.

CAVERN OF SOULS: APPLY DIRECTLY TO THE TREEFOLK

[Koby]

Let's not forget the most important treefolk of all: Chameleon Colossus

[klaus]

Hey Antonius,
handsome list by the way. Kudos!


Lands (22)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Riptide Laboratory

Creatures (15)
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Sower of Temptation

Artifacts (2)
2 Umezawa’s Jitte

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Instants (14)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Snare

Sorceries (5)
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lingering Souls


There's nothing I'd change, except maybe replace Jitte #2 with something with more oomph, since you added quite a few fliers who would carry a SOFI like a boss. Oh, and possibly get 2-3 wastelands in the mix: CoS will increase the relative number of creature decks, enhancing Punishing Fire as a solid strategy => more PF.decs.

[Richard Cheese]

Let's not forget the most important treefolk of all: Chameleon Colossus

Yew Spirit is strictly better.

[Humphrey]

Yew Spirit is strictly better.

????

[DragoFireheart]

Hah. Insects can't even come close to matching the synergy and raw power of the Ents. Leaf-Crowned Elder is a better Dark Confidant, Treefolk Harbinger is a better Worldly Tutor, Dungrove Elder is basically impossible for the format to deal with, and Doran, the Siege Tower shuts down all the most important threats in the format; Delver, Clique, and Hellspark Elemental just to name a few. Oh, and they can all be fetched up with GSZ.

I'm going to go ahead and say that Treefolk is the most powerful tribe in the history of the game, and continued support with new cards like Yew Spirit, Lumberknot, and Ghoultree just shows that WotC isn't dropping their support for the big guys any time soon.

CAVERN OF SOULS: APPLY DIRECTLY TO THE TREEFOLK

Of course, you forgot about Gigapede. WHAT NOW WHERE ARE YOUR GODS NOW MORTAL

[lorddotm]

Of course, you forgot about Gigapede. WHAT NOW WHERE ARE YOUR GODS NOW MORTAL

You're dumb, Insects already had 8 Vials. As well as the most broken creature in Magic (20/1, Lifelink, Unblockable for G) in Xantid Swarm.

[Antonius]

Did a lot of testing with Humans yesterday and found that while they're as good as (if not a little better) than traditional DnT vs Maverick and Thresh they're much, much worse against red decks. UR Burn was a nightmare.

[Richard Cheese]

????

Doesn't get hit by Retribution of the Meek.

Also says "Treefolk" right on the card.