[Article] Eternal Europe: Get Ready to Terminate

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

I guess it was pretty obvious to anybody who has read my work that I'd be excited about Terminus, so that's what I'm talking about this time. Also includes current (testing) lists for Caw Cartel and CAB Jace now that we have a cheaper sweeper. Enjoy!

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24053_Get_Ready_To_Terminate.html

[kiblast]

I was really, really waiting for your opinion on AVR regarding Caw Cartel. I noticed the sinergy between Terminus and Hawks when AVR was spoiled, but I judged (without testing, just a first impression) the whole miracle mechanic not reliable enough without any kind of tutor, even playing the cantrip cartel. But, with Tops back in, I'm excited to test those new toys.I'm a bit skeptical about the singleton Jitte, seems like a win more card in most situations (unless you are facing UR burn obviously). Thank you again for your article.

[The Treefolk Master]

As a pure control lover, this has been one of the best articles I've read in a loooong while.

I'd love to play CAB Jace again, really fun deck, I've got an unhealthy relationship with maze of ith.

However, I can't help but wonder if a single crucible would be good in your list. You've got tons of lands with a great sinergy with it, have you tried it?

Anyway, great article.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Happy you enjoyed it :)

@kiblast: Terminus has been very solid so far, between cantrips setting it up and drawing it of the top I've gotten a lot of one mana sweepers. Definitely helps to lower the deck's response time and furthers the resilience to mana denial.
/edit: Forgot to address the Jitte: It has been pretty sweet for me so far as another card you can sculpt your game around if you have it. It dominates the board against Maverick and SoulBlade, helps make up for the damage output of a Mongoose and gives you much lifegain against anything with Lightning Bolts, not to mention it deals with opposing Jittes. As surprised as I was that an Equipment played out fine in a list with so few creatures, the Jitte has regularly been sweet for me.

@Treefolk Master: I had Crucible in the very early incarnations of the deck way back when and it's a very powerful card. I simply don't feel like there's room for another lategame card and the others (Jace, Entreat, Forbid) are either more powerful or more important for how certain matchups play out.

[catmint]

I faced different UW Terminus decks with the classic RUG build I am playing since a while and they were very strong.

My question to you Carsten as a UW control expert:
Did you test a Counter-Top Thopter deck? My buddy tested against me a lot and his build seems very very strong. Focusing on locks with Humility/Ensaring Bridge and/or counter.top using only 8 slots for winconditions: 2 jace, 1 elspeth, 1 sword of the meek, 1 stoneforge, 1 batterskull, 2 thopter foundry has the best synvergy with enlightened tutor. The new cards Terminus and Entreat the Angels do not contribute a lot to the deck because of Humility (Antisynergy with Angels and wrath is less necessary because of the lock)

What's really interesting to me:
If
- Maverick can't beat Humility,
- Esnaring Bridge/counter top/Terminus is super strong against RUG,
- the deck is grindier than Stoneblade and
- counter top + e.tutor package provides "immunity" versus different burn/combo decks:

Why is this deck not a big contender already? (Besides it beeing super difficult to play and 50 minutes is a short time).

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

I faced different UW Terminus decks with the classic RUG build I am playing since a while and they were very strong.

My question to you Carsten as a UW control expert:
Did you test a Counter-Top Thopter deck? My buddy tested against me a lot and his build seems very very strong. Focusing on locks with Humility/Ensaring Bridge and/or counter.top using only 8 slots for winconditions: 2 jace, 1 elspeth, 1 sword of the meek, 1 stoneforge, 1 batterskull, 2 thopter foundry has the best synvergy with enlightened tutor. The new cards Terminus and Entreat the Angels do not contribute a lot to the deck because of Humility (Antisynergy with Angels and wrath is less necessary because of the lock)

What's really interesting to me:
If
- Maverick can't beat Humility,
- Esnaring Bridge/counter top/Terminus is super strong against RUG,
- the deck is grindier than Stoneblade and
- counter top + e.tutor package provides "immunity" versus different burn/combo decks:

Why is this deck not a big contender already? (Besides it beeing super difficult to play and 50 minutes is a short time).

I haven't played UWThopters lately, though I think it will still suffer from what I disliked about it when I last tested it, only intensified by the fact that the format is now even more tempo driven.

I think the reason UW CountertopThopter hasn't been doing all that well stems from a combination of factors, but is mainly based on the fact that you waste so much card advantage and tempo by playing "investment cards", that is to say cards that don't have any immediate impact on the game and still cost you a card and mana.

To wit:You have twelve cards in your deck that force you to invest a card in hopes of future gain (and four more FoWs to further reduce your handsize), Counterbalance, Enlightened Tutor and Sensei's Divining Top. Let's look at them one by one:

SDT
SDT is the least costly because you can always flip it to get your card back, but even that costs you a lot of tempo. Essentially you play a two mana Ponder that doesn't cantrip and can't shuffle. Sure, it insures better draws later but running a card that is that bad for the first turn or two it's in play is a significant cost.

Counterbalance
Counterbalance is the worst offender here, as it might just do nothing all game, meaning you spent two mana and a card to do nothing at all aside from making your opponent afraid. At the same time, it totally dominates certain matchups which is why it's interesting in decks that already dominate those matchups not weak to CB.

Enlightened Tutor
Again you invest a card to find something that you decide you need right now. Now, getting the right lock-piece is quite powerful and usually worth it if it sticks, but if your bullet is answered you're again down cards without your opponent doing anything.
Given that you're spending so many cards in hand for no immediate gain, you're much less likely to be able to protect your bullet from opposing countermagic as well as artifact/enchantment removal.

Essentially, you start every game on a mulligan to five or six and down a tempo black hole, the further behind the more of your investment-cards you draw. That makes you unable to consistently defend either yourself (against being killed) or the investment cards (against countermagic and removal) in a relevant time frame, leading to significant amounts of lost games.
Once you've managed to fight to the point where the investment cards start amortizing, you're looking good but the format is just too fast for that to be a consistent plan at the moment, imo.

[DragoFireheart]

I really like your CounterTop list. I've always believed for a long time that SFM and CounterTop would be a good mix since the CT can protect the SFM while Batterskull will stall anything that gets through. Have you ever had mana issues with the SFM and CounterTop combo?

[LowBeyonder]

I like the list. I finally gave up and added black mana to the last version so I could board Engineered Plague and Planar Void, but I'll probably give this a shot as well.

[catmint]

I understand what you are saying carsten. Investing cards and tempo in a lock that does not work/stick results in loosing. However if you look at the matchups vs. the 3 top contenders:

- Maverick: it should not be a problem to resolve and stick Humility

- RUG: Probably causes you to worry because of lots of counterspells and a fast clock. However i played it (i play decent and on about the same level as my buddy) and did not stand a chance. Every card he is playing is really good against RUG. Of course he cannot just play E. Tutor: esnaring bridge in a Spell Pierce, but its not necessary since the deck has so much removal also handling the Geese (Swords, EE, Perish, Terminus,..) that you can just "play your normal draw": Drop a lot of basics, handle threats and you'll get to counter-top/Jace/Elspeth/Esnaring Bridge eventually.

- Esperblade: NOt sure how popular this deck will be in the new meta, but this could be slightly in favour of Stoneblade

I suppose everyone wants to play with the new toys entreat the angels and terminus, but from my conclusions and the fact that the MD counter-top should give a real advantage over burn/combo I feel thopters with humility/esnaring bridge might be the superior choice.

[dahcmai]

I used to play Uw control quite exclusively. When at a Gran prix or such, you notice it's biggest flaw. It's frigging slow as hell. you end up drawing a lot just due to the opponent not realizing how locked out he is. You can play as fast as you like, but you will non-stop have to push people to play.

That was my main reason for putting the deck away. Elspeth helped Jace speed it up somewhat, but it was still rough because you know some people just plain have to think 5 minutes about everything even if the only card in their hand is a land when they play against it.

Other than that, it's a dream to play.

[Sloshthedark]

interesting as always, I was surprised a bit you didn't cover this card in your previous article as I think it would be the most influential legacy card in the new set... not sure which variation (Stonforge/snapcaster/Clique+CB/Tutor toolbox) will be most successful but Terminus will push UWx builds on the top imho
I'd really like to try the CAB-Jace

[Shawn]

I disagree with the clock being a problem for Uw based control decks, if you play at a steady pace and make sure your opponent does. Including and prior to GP Prov I played varients of Uw Landstill almost exclusively and the only non ID draw I had over the course of three or so years was one was where I definitely should have called a judge for such things as 1:30 minute Brainstorms. Whether it's 7-9 round SCGs or a 16 round GP, I haven't had that time problem.

[anwei]

I'm loving Terminus in Uw control, but:
Are Hawks really better than Factories in the first/Cartel list? Surviving Terminus seems really good. If you've started playing out the Hawks then miracle, it might be a long one.

[klaus]

I'm loving Terminus in Uw control, but:
Are Hawks really better than Factories in the first/Cartel list? Surviving Terminus seems really good. If you've started playing out the Hawks then miracle, it might be a long one.

As has been adressed in the article: Hawks love Terminus, since that way you can generate C/A (Hawks+BS) multiple times.

[kiblast]

I'm loving Terminus in Uw control, but:
Are Hawks really better than Factories in the first/Cartel list? Surviving Terminus seems really good. If you've started playing out the Hawks then miracle, it might be a long one.

You don't need hawks for the ''clock'' they provide, you need them because you can cast Ancestral Recalls in legacy. Terminus just amplifies this already existing engine.

[Nihil Credo]

Also Hawks are fantastic chump blockers. Factories are terrible ones, except very late in the game (and even then they don't chump Delver).

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Sorry all for the long response time, pretty busy with university right now.

@Drago: Happy you like the list, haven't had mana-troubles with it yet though that's probably because I've only played a handful of games with it. It's more theorycrafting than anything else as I haven't had time to test much lately.

@catmint: sticking Humility shouldn't be that hard game 1 at least, I agree, though I've lot quite a few games with Humility in play before. 1/1s still do damage and Equipments are a pain if you spend a ton of cards on setting up things.

That being said, you might be right - after all you seem to have done significantly more testing with it than I have - and the deck is great right now, though I'm wary of its structural weaknesses I elaborated about above.

@shawn: I play fast and I'm having some trouble with the round time. Opponents don't always play at a pace conducive to play three grindy games.

@Slosh: As mentioned I didn't know about Terminus when writing the last one. Other than that, yeah, I love CAB Jace, too, though its power is much more meta-dependent than that of a more spell-based control deck. Against the big three, though, it definitely is quite excellent.

@anwei: As others - who clearly have tested the deck, given their appreciation for the birdies - have pointed out, the Hawks have a totally different role from Mishras. They're mainly meant to be Brainstormed back, providing massive card advantage, while stalling the board by chump-blocking to provide the time necessary to capitalize on that time. And with this deck, they're all long ones :p

[Antonius]

I disagree with your cb list- the curve is very scattered and sfm seems terrible compared to snapcaster. Sfm is another investment card you really need to protect to make gains. Sure, CBtop can protect it but anything is good when protected by cbtop. On the flipside, snapcaster is really damn good at protecting you when you don't have cbtop up. Further, you can't say that sfm provides the missing clock because angels just blows games out of the park. When i tested my post AVR CB list, i found terminus unnecessary for the maindeck. Angels was the nuts. For reference, here's my list:
4 Delta
4 Strand
2 Flats
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

2 EE

4 Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Pierce
1 Snare
4 Swords

4 Snapcaster
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance

2 Dismember
3 Entreat the Angels

2 Jace

3 Force of Will

Snapcaster-swords-dismember was so efficient and didn't get blocked by teeg. And teeg is a serious concern- i might cut the ee for darkblast and a smother or edict just to address that further. There's so many games you can play as just remove threats then crush with angels. If you keep the board clear and your life near 20 til turn four, not many decks can race two angels.

Otherwise though, your other lists look really good. Love the squadron hawks with terminus. Why not try and fit sfm too? With so many carriers you'd benefit extraordinarily from sfm as an equipment tutor. At least run two and a feast and famine. Is ponder really necessary? Tops seem better. Lastly, diversify your removal to deal with the aforementioned teeg problem.