Firestorm

[rxavage]

3 Reforge the Soul
3 Past in Flames
4 Burning Wish
3 Gamble
4 Faithless Looting
4 Manamorphose
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething song
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond
11 Mountains

SIDEBOARD
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Shattering Spree
4 Pyroblast
1 Anarchy
1 Gamble
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Banefire
1 Pyroclasm




I went 3-3 drop today at SCG Providence with this build. The deck mulls well. I crushed URx delver decks and my losses were due to my own play mistakes and punting like a pro kicker... Help me improve this deck. Gamble is awesome in this deck.


Also, I had zero real playtesting this deck, just a some goldfishing and some ghost playing situational scenarios.

[(nameless one)]

Would Pyromancer's Ascension help? Maybe pair it up with Burning Inquiry since you're already running Past in Flames

Also, I would suggest Dangerous Wager.

And since you are running Reforge the Soul, ever consider Ignite Memories as your win-condition? I'm not sure if it would be effective it sounds legit.

[rxavage]

Would Pyromancer's Ascension help? Maybe pair it up with Burning Inquiry since you're already running Past in Flames

Also, I would suggest Dangerous Wager.

And since you are running Reforge the Soul, ever consider Ignite Memories as your win-condition? I'm not sure if it would be effective it sounds legit.




I've actually considered ignite memories but was talked out of it. My reasoning was for the showtell decks that are gaining momentum, but they can potentially force a copy pitching progenitus to better their chances.

And I'm not sure where to fit dangerous scenario in. It seems like a good fit and but looting does serious work. I wish they'd make a functional manamorphose reprint.

I think I may add a reb to the sb, the blasts were nice and 5 wont hurt. Another wish is for red to have some more disruption.

[Final Fortune]

It just seems better straight up running 3xEmpty the Warrens MD

[1maarten1]

In the sideboard: I count a total of 5 game winners. Just seems like overkill to me. I can understand running 2, maybe 3. What was your experience with running 0 protection, is flashback enough to get you back into the game when important things get countered? I agree that Faithless Looting is the best drawing spell, I don't really like dangerous wager or burning inquiry.

Why you run 1 gamble in the sideboard? I can't imagine you use wish to grab gamble to grab something main deck that wish couldn't grab from sideboard. I would just run 4 gamble MD.

Anyway, cool deck! Ill test it for sure!

In the U/R PiF decks I also really liked the Brainfreeze yourself play, but I don't know how red compromises for this, of course you have the effects from gamble and looting tho.

For the main deck:
I would consider running Simian Spirit Guide over Chrome mox, both get you 1 red in the turn where you need it tho Chrome mox adds storm and can give mana multiple turns but it costs you 2 cards. I think thats worth considering.

For the sideboard:
I would DEFINITELY run blood moon. Messes with blue decks, big time.

Im going to test the following:
Lands: 16
16 Mountain (not sure about the number yet)

Rituals: 20
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Draw & Business (not sure about the number of wish/reforge/PiF): 16
4 Burning Wish
4 Gamble
2 Reforge the Soul
1 Past in Flames
4 Faithless Looting
1 Empty the Warrens/Grapeshot

Artifacts: 8
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Sideboard: 15
4 blood moon
4 pyroblast
1 past in flames
1 reforge the soul
1 grapeshot
1 empty the warrens
1 banefire
1 shattering spree
1 pyroclasm
Had to make some room, don't know about the list yet but Ill start testing it and tell you how it goes.

[Darkenslight]

It just seems better straight up running 3xEmpty the Warrens MD

But then the deck becomes BulletStorm (with Goblins as Bullets).

As an aside, however, I definitely agree with at least one Empty as an alt wincon against cards such as Solitary Confinement.

[Final Fortune]

I think you have to play with Manamorphose if you want to consitently win with Tendrils of Agony post-board, it also lets you play 4 Reforge the Soul MD and a Diminishing Returns in the SB for the same effect so you can effectively maximize your Miracle triggers.

I'm really at a loss at how you're beating U.dec, if you're not playing 3xETW in the MD they don't have to counter your acceleration at all.

[1maarten1]

I think you have to play with Manamorphose if you want to consitently win with Tendrils of Agony post-board, it also lets you play 4 Reforge the Soul MD and a Diminishing Returns in the SB for the same effect so you can effectively maximize your Miracle triggers.

I'm really at a loss at how you're beating U.dec, if you're not playing 3xETW in the MD they don't have to counter your acceleration at all.

you could also completely cut burning wish and LED and up the count of both your business and you win-cons, but I am not sure if that improves anything. Would have to test that

[rxavage]

I have been considering replacing the chrome mox with ssg, they rarely help in actual play. Mox Diamond is a better fit anyways. 16 mountains imo is too many and unnecessary, I'm going back to 13 which was perfect for me in testing. 3 reforge and 2 pif main seemed to work best. I like blood moon for the side, I didn't even think of it.

[1maarten1]

After some test games, I'm going to cut chrome mox for SSG. Also I am going to test a build without LED and Wish, in my limited testing I found out that often the 2 'extra' mana from wish was just too much. This is mainly due to the fact that because we are mono red all of our rituals usually only ramp up 1 mana. I will up the count of Reforge's, up the count of grapeshot's, move EtW to the sideboard. Mixed results with gamble also, but I think that just warrants more testing.

Anyway, could you tell us a bit more about the match ups at SCG and maybe even a small report?

Oh and btw, Blood Moon from the sb is just the nuts lol

[rxavage]

3 Reforge the Soul
2 Past in Flames
4 Burning Wish
3 Gamble
4 Faithless Looting
4 Manamorphose
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething song
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
14 Mountains

1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Shattering Spree
4 Pyroblast
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
3 Blood Moon
1 Banefire
1 Pyroclasm



I changed the main back to how it was originally configured before the scg with the only changes being -2 chrome mox, +1 mox diamond and +1 mountain. I too have had mixed results with gamble, it is amazing with a grip of rituals and either rts or pif in hand and gambling for the missing component. I will always drop my LEDs before gambling, I don't know if it's always correct. Also gamble is good in the situation where its your last card in hand and just gambling for pif and flashing it back.

[rufus]

Have you considered color splashes rather than running Blood Moon?

With black, you get Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual better mana sources than the second tier red stuff. Then you could also run Ill-Gotten Gains (or if you're insane Sins of the Past) for synergy with LEDs and gamble and looting.

Blue would give you stuff like Intution,Brainstorm,Portent and Brain Freeze (which you can use on yourself to set up a PiF pile.)

A super-zany (i.e. terrible) approach would be to play looting cards with Library of Leng.

[rxavage]

Yes I've considered the splashes and currently working on a few various builds. I wanted to see how viable a mono R storm build would be. Personally, I think this deck has the potential to be better than charbelcher. A U/R/B build would probably be better and could run thoughtseize if not running ad naseum. IGG would be nice to have as well.

I'll write a small report but I doubt it will be helpful. Sunday was a hectic day for me, a culmination of disastrous events and I was extremely stressed and anxious.

[HPB_Eggo]

Gitaxian Probe and Thoughtseize with Therapy is all the protection a deck could ask for. Add that to more or less what you are currently running and I think it will work out quite well.

Something like this...

4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Thoughtseize
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Faithless Looting
3 Reforge the Soul

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

As core, at least. No need to splash blue at all. Probe is excellent in every way, regardless: it's invisible, provides great information against most decks, and costs zero mana.

Will probably require a lot of testing to see what else should be included. Off the top of my head, some things potentially worth including: Infernal Tutor, other MD win-conditions, and Burning Wish with a SB toolbox.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Since you're such a damage-based Storm deck anyways, would running Lightning Bolt make sense? If you play it on your winning turn, it's essentially one mana for 4 damage (3 damage, +1 storm) to the opponent. More importantly though, it takes a bit of the pressure off of having to kill the opponent in one turn, and it's pretty obscene with Past in Flames. Plus it helps against shit like Gaddock Teeg.

[Koby]

Does playing Pyromancer's Swath make sense for this deck while playing all 4 Grapeshot? The deck can easily recover from no hand via Reforge the Soul and Past in Flames.

[rxavage]

RD1
Game1
Op: mountain, figure, go
Me: mountain, go
Op: attack with figure, drop another figure, go
Me: ritual into pif, flashback rituals, ETW for 22 goblins
Op: draw, scoop
Game2
Mull to 5 on the draw keeping a no land hand with reforge,led,rite,pyretic,seething
Op: mountain, relic of progenitus, go
Me: draw, go
Op: mountain, fod, go
Me: draw, go
Op: aatack with fod, pump fod, play another fod
Me: draw, mountain, go
Op: play goblin guide, attack with crew(I get mountain from guide), mounatian, fireblast.
Me: mountain, point out his relic is useless now that he tapped out, ritual/reforge/pif/wishgrapeshot for 16

RD2
Game1
Op: trop, gszarbor, go
Me: mountain, go
Op: tundra, brainstorm, attack with arbor, go
Me: mountain, try to start and get fow’d, go
Op: land, go
Me: cliqued end of draw burying my business and get nothing, pass
Op: showtell progenitus, go
Me: draw wish, go
Op: attack with crew, pass
Me: try to start and get pierced, scoop
Game2
Was a fuckshow. Judge makes bad call cost me game.

RD3
Game1
Op: plains, top, go
Me: mountain, go
Op: tomb, go
Me: op jokes about ritualing into dragonstorm, I say FU and ritual into 26 gobs
Game2
Op: seat of synod, top go
Me: land, go
Op: tundra, counterbalance, go
Me: take a few turns to find an out, scoop after a few countered starts
Game3
Op: gets painter/stone online second turn game over my turn 3 draw

RD4
Game1
Go off turn 2
Game2
Same as first except I pyroblast his fow

RD5
Very similar to previous round except I have more pyroblasts and play it very well game2

RD6
Coincidentally at same table as rd2 and I’m telling a friend about the judge and my opponent
Walks up and overhears convo, says he had same judge make bad call along with another player
With a similar complaint. Obviously I was put and rug player mulls accordly. I misplay in game 2
After overcoming some counters costing me the game. I drop so I can go visit my mom.



Mom only had to have double bypass and is out of surgery now and still unconscious but ok.


I've thought about the bolts and such too. I have no experience with swath but It seems like something to try out. The deck is pretty resilient if you don't over spend on rituals/led's or get unlucky with draws.

[Aggro_zombies]

How does this deck fare against, say, Canadian? I can't imagine giving them a fresh hand of counterspells off of Reforge the Soul will end well for you, but then you do have a lot of "must counter" spells if their goal is to break the storm chain.

As for Empty over a Grapeshot, meh. I imagine it's not difficult to double Grapeshot someone during the storm chain and Empty the Warrens doesn't seem like that much of an improvement. You're still dead to Solitary Confinement either way, but Empty doesn't stack up favorably against Maelstrom Pulse, EE, Moat, Jitte, and so on.

I agree with DukeDemon that Bolt belongs here. Thalia, Teeg, and Canonist seem like problems for you, and there's no reason to be the combo deck that's dead to a fair deck if you can help it.

EDIT: Actually, one thing that occured to me in favor of Empty is the fact that Reforge should have a much higher fizzle rate than Ad Noz. You see fewer cards per draw spell and also give the opponent a fresh hand. I imagine it's not uncommon to get to 8-9 storm, cast a second Reforge, and have it countered with the opponent still at 10+ life. Alternately, you can cast the second Reforge, but they Spell Pierce it and you don't have enough mana floating to continue going off after you draw again, meaning you've effectively wasted all that storm and given your opponent a fresh hand of hate. In cases like this, it seems useful to be able to fall back on Empty and try to beat down with 8-12 Goblins or so; if or when you go off again, your required storm count will hopefully be lower because of the damage your dudes inflicted.

[rxavage]

double post over an hour apart?

[HPB_Eggo]

After some testing, a few more solid thoughts on the deck...

What makes the list good is Gamble into Past in Flames. If you can get to seven mana with Gamble in hand you are essentially guaranteed victory, discounting any sitting hats bears or counters. You can even LED in response to Gamble and win anyways. Gamble fetches Past and then fetches your win condition or Burning Wish.

I have actually found Reforge the Soul to be one of the weaker cards in the deck, especially when coupled with discard. It IS great in a goldfish situation, but not in any case where your opponent has counterspells.

In addition, I have found Dangerous Wager to be very good in virtually all cases. What I am running now is the following list...

Firestorm
4 Gamble
1 Past In Flames
2 Burning Wish
1 Empty The Warrens

4 Thoughtseize
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Faithless Looting
4 Dangerous Wager

4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite Of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Badlands
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island

The sideboard is kind of up in the air for the moment, but is very similar to a current TES SB with Reforge The Soul stuck in it. This is why the list contains the singleton Volcanic Island.

I think you should test the deck like this. It is very consistent, and does better against lists running Force and Daze.

[rxavage]

HBP, I took what you said into consideration and altered a R/B list I mocked up slightly changing the count of some spells and adding dangerous wager. This is what I plan on testing This weekend:

2 Reforge the Soul
2 Past in Flames
4 Burning Wish
4 Gamble
4 Manamorphose
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dangerous Wager
2 Faithless Looting
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething song
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
2 Lotus Petal
4 Badlands
2 mountain
1 swamp
4 bloodstained mire

1 Reforge the Soul
1 Past in Flames
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Pyroclasm
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Pyroblast


I agree that reforge isn't as good against blue but with the thoughtseize I suspect it will have better game. I knew a mono red build wouldn't be optimal but I wanted to see how things played out. Adding black gives access to more efficient rituals and discard. I really don't feel like blue is necessary, I feel it convolutes my original idea. I prefer to have the deck play how I originally constructed it.

[Aggro_zombies]

Once you're in black, why are you still bothering with Reforge over the tried-and-true engine of Ad Nauseam? Especially with cards like Dangerous Wager, whose flavor text might as well be "'Fizzle me!' - Anonymous Storm Player"?

[rxavage]

Once you're in black, why are you still bothering with Reforge over the tried-and-true engine of Ad Nauseam? Especially with cards like Dangerous Wager, whose flavor text might as well be "'Fizzle me!' - Anonymous Storm Player"?

LOL, I'm just trying different things. I would love to be able to optimize a mono red build to where it has game against the field, but if adding black allows me to retain the basic idea of it but make it more efficient and resilient then I'd be stupid to not try it. I also think that looting is better than wager but I've played the deck out and can see where it could be useful, only testing will allow me to fully optimize the list.

[joemauer]

The best splash for any reforge deck would be white for the chant effects. Having some discard doesn't help when you give a blue player a new seven. Maybe squeeze in some defense grids in the SB as well.

Supposedly dontbiteitholmes broke reforge already, but he's not giving out his secret. If reforge is broken(I haven't tested to know either way) then I would focus on that card.

[HPB_Eggo]

Once you're in black, why are you still bothering with Reforge over the tried-and-true engine of Ad Nauseam? Especially with cards like Dangerous Wager, whose flavor text might as well be "'Fizzle me!' - Anonymous Storm Player"?

If we wanted to play Ad Nauseam we would be playing one of several tried-and-true Ad Nauseam lists, not running a bunch of cards that are simply not good with Ad Nauseam. And what you should be comparing to Ad Nauseam is Gamble > Past In Flame, not Wager.

Regardless. Dangerous Wager is actually quite good in this deck. Gamble, respond with Wager, crack LED, draw two cards and fetch Past In Flame is an incredibly strong play.

As for running a lot of discard with Reforge: it simply does not work in most cases. If they have anything you want to make them discard, Reforge becomes a dead card, as it gives them seven more chances to draw it, and almost certainly on your combo turn when you do not have the mana to spare.

Reforge is still a great Wish target, but running more than a singleton MD is a bad idea if you're running discard as well.

[rxavage]

The best splash for any reforge deck would be white for the chant effects. Having some discard doesn't help when you give a blue player a new seven. Maybe squeeze in some defense grids in the SB as well.

Supposedly dontbiteitholmes broke reforge already, but he's not giving out his secret. If reforge is broken(I haven't tested to know either way) then I would focus on that card.


I considered both chant/silence and defense grid naturally, even had a single defense grid at the scg cause I lost the tendrils somehow and only had one anyways and asked people to bring some cause scg didn't have any. I must admit I didn't look any further into the white splash because I felt white had nothing else to offer. Maybe the small white splash with the defense grids is better but I assure you I'm pursuing every avenue. That's why I posted this to hash out the issues, discuss, theorize etc.
Reforge the soul is awesome and naturally Past in Flames goes with it and Im bringing attention to Gamble and its interactions.

[Aggro_zombies]

LOL, I'm just trying different things. I would love to be able to optimize a mono red build to where it has game against the field, but if adding black allows me to retain the basic idea of it but make it more efficient and resilient then I'd be stupid to not try it. I also think that looting is better than wager but I've played the deck out and can see where it could be useful, only testing will allow me to fully optimize the list.
I would think Night's Whisper is far better than Wager if only because your hand doesn't have to be empty to make the most use of it.

[HPB_Eggo]

After a bit more testing, I think Gamble > Past In Flames is the real deal. It feels much more consistent than Ad Nauseam for getting to what you need as quickly as possible, and Gamble isn't entirely dead without LED like Infernal Tutor often is.

That being said, the rest of the deck still seems really rough. Going to start trying everything I can think of until it works out a bit better elsewhere. If it can stay mono-red, that would be great, but I somehow do not think that will be the case for the best possible list.

In fact, I think I am going to try a list with one Ad Nauseam as a Gamble target after Past In Flames. White splash will have to wait until I see how that works out.

As for Night Whisper, it is only really better than Wager on non-combo turns. Otherwise, they are nearly identical, with Wagers instant speed allowing for some cute tricks that Night Whisper does not achieve as fluidly.

[Final Fortune]

I think the SB Gamble should just be a SB Infernal Tutor, the problem with SBing Reforge the Soul and Gamble is that you're decreasing your MD threat density in situations where you'd only be using LED in conjunction with Burning Wish to wish for them anyway, at which point you may as well just be playing Diminishing Returns and Infernal Tutor.

Edit: Also how are you guys usually winning after you've Gambled for Past in Flames?

[claudio.r]

I tried a long time ago to make a mono red storm deck, but at the time i didn't consider Gamble. I really like your idea.

I think i'm going to test a mono red build using 4 Gambles, 3 Past in flames and a single Reforge the soul; 8 business spells. I will also try 4 Manamorphose and 4 Gitaxian probes in the deck, not only for their ability but also because of the cantrip.

Just like the poster above me, i would like to know what's the most common way to victory after going Gamble for Past in flames (or the general paths to victory this deck have).

Thanks in advance.

[HPB_Eggo]

It usually does not matter a whole lot how you win. If Gamble hits and Past In Flames is uncountered, you van simply replay all the rituals that got you there and flashback Gamble to fetch your win condition.

As to what that condition usually is, I would say Empty The Warrenns is what I fetch most often. Burning Wish into Tendrils is the only other method of victory that I usually go for, but Grapeshot isn't bad.

If you really want to just go for the blazing fast mono-red build, try running multiple Grapeshot as your win condition. It is the easiest to recur with Past In Flames, allowing you to build a truly enormous storm count with only a handful of cards.

I would also advise cutting Past In Flames to two at Max. You will never need the third, and it does not matter if you draw one naturally, as you can pretty much always Gamble for one without any drawback.

[claudio.r]

Thanks for the answer.

Another question, how as been the behaviour of Reforge the Soul, is it worth to run 2 ou 3 copies of it ?

[rxavage]

Thanks for the answer.

Another question, how as been the behaviour of Reforge the Soul, is it worth to run 2 ou 3 copies of it ?


2 should be sufficient, the only way you can reliably chain them is using pif with riuals to get enough mana and hope to hit led's. That's why I want to try the black rituals, cause they are better than the pay 2 get one

[HPB_Eggo]

I am currently running only a singleton Recorge in the SB as a Burning Wish target to build up the storm count in a pinch, where I have rarely used it. This is largely because it does not play well with discard.

In a mono-red list the drawbacks of the card start to matter less and less. With no real protection except, possibly, an REB or two, it really does not matter if your opponent gets to draw off it. I would probably fool around with running 2-3 along with the normal 4 Faithless Looting and see where that gets you.

Let me know whoa it goes, I am curious about the mono-red but only have time to test the black splash as of the moment.

[Waikiki]

gamble the wincondition doesnt really work after past tho cause it doesnt have flashback.

[catmint]

But the wincon gets flashback from past Waikiki :tongue:

[HPB_Eggo]

@waikiki: It usually works out. The actual method is slightly more complicated in some scenarios. To be more exact...

Let us say you have Gamble in hand with some business, and can either reach seven mana or are forced to try to do so regardless.

You first burn your whole hand. Use Faithless Looting with as much in hand as possible for greater freedom in what you discard. Obviously cantrip Probe and other things as much as possible.

Now. Chances are you will hit a second Gamble in the midst of all this. If you do, great! You simply Gamble for the win condition before Last In Flames. If you do not, you should have 1-2 draw spells in the yard and it still will not matter.

Let us assume we Gamble for PiF without a second Gamble. Crack all your LED in response and cast any Wagers you might have (obviously only one if you draw well). From here, you should have two cards in hand and access to all the gas that got you to this point.

If yoou do not discard PiF from Gamble, great! It has flashbacks, so things are easy. Cast it, recur everything, cast Gamble, flash it back if you discard your win condition and win ( obviously you will have more in the yard from additional Faithless Looting, Wager, and/or LED).

Now, if you discard PiF, things beg a little tight. You will have two other cards and will have to flashbacks PiF. From here, you simply have to find another Gamble, as thid will let you fetch your second PiF in addition to grabbing your win condition while continuing to go off.

Failing that, Gamble with some cards in hand and pray.

For reference, my list currently runs exactly two PiF as a result of this problem. A third is unnecessary, though.

EDIT: @catmint : It actually will not. PiF only gives flashbacks to what is already in the graveyard, not anything in it over the course of one turn

[Waikiki]

But the wincon gets flashback from past Waikiki :tongue:

It doesnt gain flashback after past already resolved tho.

thnx for detailed explanation. Is it better then just normal ant is the question then tho. Graveyard hate seems to shut it down hard.

[HPB_Eggo]

thnx for detailed explanation. Is it better then just normal ant is the question then tho. Graveyard hate seems to shut it down hard.

This particular portion of the deck actually feels better than ANT. As mentioned before, a lot of the rest of the deck feels very rough, but Gamble and PiF is very, very solid.

Maybe with more testing I will find it is not, but for the moment I am going to at least take a shot at an optimized list to see how good it can be. It's even possible that Gamble>PiF is much better but the cards to support it properly simply do not exist yet.

As for graveyard hats, that is a pretty big problem in games two and three. With the black splash I have taken to sticking Ad Nauseam in the SB as a secondary engine and Wish target. It seems to be working fairly well.

EDIT: Bounce from the SB with a light blue splash for permanent stuff or Chant to stop Extraction with a white splash would also work in some situations. Many decks also will not side in both combo and graveyard hate as they might think it either unnecessary or it will cripple the deck in some way to take out so much stuff.

[rxavage]

Ad Nauseam cannot be tutored with burning wish, it is an instant.


Also, Opponents have brought in surgical extraction against me and that was the reason for the gamble in the sb. Although I realized it was redundant since you could just wish-->pif there probably will be times when that gamble in the sb matter g2/3 so siding out a gamble for those games is a good idea.

[HPB_Eggo]

Ad Nauseam cannot be tutored with burning wish, it is an instant.

Herp deep. Sometimes I need to read more carefully.

At least I got all the PiF stuff right, so far as I can tell.

[rxavage]

Herp deep. Sometimes I need to read more carefully.

At least I got all the PiF stuff right, so far as I can tell.


No worries, I overlook things more often than I'd like, I actually made the same mistake when i first built TES. Just reminding you so that it doesn't cost you a game, not to be a douche. I'm glad you decided to try the deck and help improve it so thanks.

[HPB_Eggo]

No worries, I overlook things more often than I'd like. Just reminding you so that it doesn't cost you a game, not to be a douche. I'm glad you decided to try the deck and help improve it so thanks.

No worries. I understand.

On a related note, this means I will almost certainly try a MD Ad Nauseam, rather than the one in the SB I have at the moment. Shall wait and see if it works MD as an out to graveyard hate.

[rxavage]

Reforge the Soul was my intended plan for GY hate.

[HPB_Eggo]

It actually works fairly well in that capacity. Mostly I am looking at Ad Nauseam as a better possibility and a secondary engine. We will see if that pans out.

In related news, I moved back to running one Reforge MD, even with the black splash and how poorly it functions with discard. Simply too powerful to overlook getting one without Wish.

[lochlan]

Ad Nauseam

...is garbage in this deck. Since you've just discovered that Burning Wish can't find an Instant you obviously aren't a storm player -- so you should probably try testing TES or ANT before you throw Ad Nauseam into a storm deck willy-nilly. I sometimes kill myself with AN while piloting TES (really you want to reach storm 4 and resolve Wish=>IGG in that deck, Ad Nauseam is always risky), which has a much more forgiving curve for resolving AN. A deck with 4x Seething Song in addition to 4cc win conditions isn't going to do well with AN. Sure, sometimes it will work out, but it won't be consistent enough to be a solid plan B.

I can see why you want AN, though. In the Reforge list I've been testing (UR) my biggest issue is just drawing more cards. Sometimes I'll end up with PiF and rits but no real action. But I think the best solution is more Reforge the Soul and blue cantrips (especially since a resolved Reforge is frequently gg).

You guys also might try testing out Pyromancer Ascension as well (which I know nameless one mentioned on page 1 but nobody has mentioned since). It could be win more, I'm not sure, but it gives the deck another must answer card and if it resolves you can get some ridiculously explosive turns (I've had goldfishes that could have played through Thalia and 2-3 Mindbreak Traps, that's how crazy it can get).

Edit: Also I think you're running Probe and Thoughtseize? That makes AN even tougher to cast. Don't forget that your opponent will probably be chipping away at your life while you set up the combo.

[claudio.r]

Lochlan, can you show us the list you've been working with? I also don't think Ad Nauseam is the way to go with this, i've played ANT for some time and most of the time i ended up going with IGG loops to win because Ad nauseam is so unreliable.

I'm trying to build a mono red list... but maybe in this case UR is the way to go...

[Darkenslight]

Would you ever consider running Winds of Change in a deck like this, or would it just not be effective enough?

Moreover, I think the important thing to find is that you have the capacity to go off successfully against other decks' nut draws.

[lochlan]

Lochlan, can you show us the list you've been working with?

Sure. It's definitely not optimal (frankly it is probably just bad), but I'm still experimenting a lot. Basically it started out as a UR storm shell (which I believe started with this (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_past_in_flames_with_.html)) and was influenced by lists and suggestions here and on the storm boards. Here's the list I'm currently testing:

Main:
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Burning Wish
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul

3 Intuition
2 Gamble

4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Flusterstorm

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain

Sideboard:
1 Banefire
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Grapeshot
1 Past in Flames
2 Echoing Truth
2 Sudden Shock
2 Pyroblast
3 Lightning Bolt


The sideboard is just thrown together and is basically just a wish board for goldfishing plus a couple rough ideas.

Past in Flames/Intuition/Reforge the Soul is dirty, but when you put them together with Pyromancer Ascension it's just bonkers. It can turn a couple rituals into insane amounts of mana, makes Manamorphose a color-fixing ritual that also draws 2, and turns every burning wish into a double win (or makes casting Grapeshot on Teeg that much easier). Once you have Pyromancer Ascension in play with two counters it's almost impossible to disrupt the combo once it's begun.

Pretty sure that the Brainstorm/Ponder package is the right amount of dig. I tried adding some Preordains, but it was just way too much, and shaving the number of Ponders kept me from finding my combo pieces fast enough.

I am not sure about the Gamble. I need to test more, but I'm leaning towards cutting it.

Flusterstorm is there because I wanted some protection maindeck for the combo, but also if I play something like this in my meta I will need to beat TES.

I really want to make this deck faster, but to do so I would need to play Lotus Petal and/or Chrome Mox (since playing the third-rate red rituals after Rite of Flame and Seething Song just seems so bad), which are anti-synergistic with PiF. And maybe that's OK, but I haven't figured out a good configuration for this yet. -3 Business and +3 Lotus Petal seems good, but I'm not sure what's right to cut.

Final thought: Reforge the Soul is almost never cast as a miracle. It's almost always better to just hard cast it. I'm pretty sure that will always be the case in any deck similar to this.

[Barook]

@lochlan: Have you tried out Faithless Looting in your build?

It might be interesting with Ascension, especially due to its flashback.

[rxavage]

Gamble is better than Intuition in this deck, but Intuition with Ascension seems fun. Also, I have included flusterstorm in my U/R build, but that plays a little different.

[HPB_Eggo]

...is garbage in this deck. Since you've just discovered that Burning Wish can't find an Instant you obviously aren't a storm player...

I have not played an actual storm deck since Mystical Tutor was banned. I played a very typicla UBw list that, to this day, is the only list I have ever taken to a larger event and done well with. I was dead tired when I tested it that way, and if you can honestly say you've never tried something silly that just doesn't work, well, good for you.

Anyways. Now that your ad hominem attack is out of the way...

Ad Nauseam absolutely is trash. Even after removing Probe and Thoughtseize, it simply does not work very well. I even attempted a flat-out transformational SB to dodge graveyard hate in either game two or three. It worked better, but still was not great.

As for your list...

Gamble is better than Intuition. That extra mana is very relevant. Probably great with Ascension, but at that point it seems like you are slowing down too much. Maybe I am wrong. Testing should tell that.

Ascension is probably worth testing, but you should absolutely be running Faithless Looting to help enable it. Possibly also Wager, but that would require some testing. Unfortunately, it will not take counters from flashing things back, otherwise I would be sold immediately.

Your list also seems to lack enough acceleration to be consistent. That I am not sure on, but no Petals and only two rituals seems a bit low, especially if you are going for Intuition over Gamble.

Late today I may try your list. Probably at least going to test Ascension in a mono-red list. Seems like it would work fairly well there, as well, especially a slower list with MD bolts.

[rxavage]

Late today I may try your list. Probably at least going to test Ascension in a mono-red list. Seems like it would work fairly well there, as well, especially a slower list with MD bolts.

Agreed. Ascension may be what monoR version needs to hold up against counters.

[civet five]

How do you get Burning Wish to trigger PA without having one in the yard? It gets exiled upon resolution, so you presumably would have discarded one, but no FL in the 60 right now?

[HPB_Eggo]

I think he was referring to Burning Wish getting copied by Pyromancer Ascension. I doubt you would ever get the chance to add a counter with it.

In reltaed news. Faithless Looting is very good with Pyromancer Ascension, at least for getting counters. I haven't yet decided if it's good enough for the mono-red list, as it's definitely a bit slower, but it is silly once you get it going. 2 Faithless Looting and an Ascension in hand at the beginning of the game makes for a very fast win if your opponent doesn't deal with the Ascension.

Anyways. Back to testing.

[Vacrix]

Sure. It's definitely not optimal (frankly it is probably just bad), but I'm still experimenting a lot. Basically it started out as a UR storm shell (which I believe started with this (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_past_in_flames_with_.html)) and was influenced by lists and suggestions here and on the storm boards. Here's the list I'm currently testing:

Main:
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Burning Wish
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul

3 Intuition
2 Gamble

4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Flusterstorm

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain

Sideboard:
1 Banefire
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Grapeshot
1 Past in Flames
2 Echoing Truth
2 Sudden Shock
2 Pyroblast
3 Lightning Bolt


The sideboard is just thrown together and is basically just a wish board for goldfishing plus a couple rough ideas.

Past in Flames/Intuition/Reforge the Soul is dirty, but when you put them together with Pyromancer Ascension it's just bonkers. It can turn a couple rituals into insane amounts of mana, makes Manamorphose a color-fixing ritual that also draws 2, and turns every burning wish into a double win (or makes casting Grapeshot on Teeg that much easier). Once you have Pyromancer Ascension in play with two counters it's almost impossible to disrupt the combo once it's begun.

Pretty sure that the Brainstorm/Ponder package is the right amount of dig. I tried adding some Preordains, but it was just way too much, and shaving the number of Ponders kept me from finding my combo pieces fast enough.

I am not sure about the Gamble. I need to test more, but I'm leaning towards cutting it.

Flusterstorm is there because I wanted some protection maindeck for the combo, but also if I play something like this in my meta I will need to beat TES.

I really want to make this deck faster, but to do so I would need to play Lotus Petal and/or Chrome Mox (since playing the third-rate red rituals after Rite of Flame and Seething Song just seems so bad), which are anti-synergistic with PiF. And maybe that's OK, but I haven't figured out a good configuration for this yet. -3 Business and +3 Lotus Petal seems good, but I'm not sure what's right to cut.

Final thought: Reforge the Soul is almost never cast as a miracle. It's almost always better to just hard cast it. I'm pretty sure that will always be the case in any deck similar to this.
Interesting approach but you'll want more rituals if you want to consistently abuse Past in Flames.

I'm going to keep an eye on this deck as it develops, probably do a little testing myself. Its an interesting concept. All things considered, I think at the end of the day its not going to be better than DDFT in terms of fighting through hate but it will likely be easier to play than DDFT. Right now lists look too slow. Intuition, Pyromancer's Ascension, etc. they are all just too slow. It looks like you'll be going off about the same turn as Grinding Station but with less protection.

On the topic of Pyromancer's Ascension... Cabal Therapy is pretty sweet shit, especially since you can also run Probe to combo with Therapy, and even Culling the Weak as massive acceleration (with Tallmen obviously). Tallmen like Phyrexian Walker and Shield Sphere would also give you extra time to go off against aggro, get rid of a hate bear with cantrips and/or Burning Wish, etc. If you don't want to run Culling the Weak, Diabolic Intent is another option that would allow you to benefit from the tallmen plan.

[rxavage]

If testing a U/R list you might as well use personal tutor. I used gamble originally because I don't own personal tutors.


3 Reforge the Soul
1 Past in Flames
4 Burning Wish
3 Personal Tutor
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Flusterstorm
4 Rite of Flame
2 Pyretic Ritual
2 Desperate ritual
4 Seething song
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Volcanic Island
3 Mountain
2 Island
4 Scalding Tarn

SB
1 Reforge the soul
1 Past in Flames
1 Personal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Emtpy the Warrens
...

[rxavage]

So, I find it weird to say this but Faithless looting is better than Brainstorm in this deck. I'm still trying to get play down correctly with the personal tutors I proxied. And Flusterstorm is sweet but 4 main is unnecessary.

[Namida]

So, I find it weird to say this but Faithless looting is better than Brainstorm in this deck. I'm still trying to get play down correctly with the personal tutors I proxied. And Flusterstorm is sweet but 4 main is unnecessary.

If you feel like Faithless Looting is better than Brainstorm here, then do you still feel like Personal Tutor is the right call here over staying out of blue with Gamble?

[PunkRocker1134]

I think white would probably be better than blue. With reforge the souls being the main engine, chant effects seem like the optimal form of protection. The mono-red version probably wants Ascension in the board. I might be playing the mono red version this weekend, so I'll get back with results if I do.

[rxavage]

If you feel like Faithless Looting is better than Brainstorm here, then do you still feel like Personal Tutor is the right call here over staying out of blue with Gamble?

My initial impression is personal tutor isnt any better than Gamble but I haven't given ptutor nearly as much testing. And a few flusterstorms can be supported with a monoR build sufficiently, I think. I plan on testing the black rituals with IGG and a single infernal in sb next.

[nedleeds]

Noxious Revival seems sweet if you stall out.

[Flaat]

Hi there, long time lurker first time posting here

Really like the idea of a past in flames/reforge the soul powered storm deck.
Some cards that havent been mentioned that seem to fit in this deck.
Protection: Overmaster
Draw/kill: Browbeat
Sorry for bringing this one up becuase it always made for flame wars in the burn thread, but Browbeat seems like it fits this deck. Its a semi wincon that makes needed storm count lower. The thing that really starts breaking the card is that its flashbackable in this deck.

Other then that i really think that the only color needed for protection is white, Orim's chant, Silence are the only cards that keep protecting you after a Reforge the soul

[rxavage]

3 Reforge the Soul
1 Past in Flames
4 Burning Wish
2 Gamble
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Faithless Looting
3 Magma Jet
4 Rite of Flame
2 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate ritual
4 Seething song
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
7 Mountains
4 Scaldin Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire



I am currently testing this build atm. I like the magma jets for several reasons and may cut a probe to add another.

Hmmm, overmaster might make be able to take probe's spot...

[HPB_Eggo]

Overmaster seems good, but I would not underestimate the fact that Probe's in the graveyard essentially read 'Pay 2 Life: Draw a card' when you cast PiF. Kind of like Manamoprhose, where it's basically a free card with PiF if you have two mana.

I'm personally still running with only 1 Reforge, 4 Gamble, and 2 PiF, but beyond that, our decks are fairly similar as of the moment. I went back to mono-red after realizing the splashes weren't all that great and the consistency with mono-red was very solid, what with avoiding Stifle and Wasteland, as well as not needing to worry about the color of mana you have.

Currently my list is fairly close to this...

4 Gamble
2 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Faithless Looting
3 Dangerous Wager
4 Rite of Flame
3 Desperate Ritual
2 Pyretic Ritual
3 Seething Song
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
13 Mountain

I might test a few Overmaster over one or the other of the slots. At the very least, one in the SB seems like a great idea, as grabbing it with Burning Wish is pretty easy.

[Namida]

I think you want to max out on Desperate Ritual before you add Pyretic Ritual, instead of the 3/2 split you have. The effect both spells have isn't significant enough for the fact that they have different names to be beneficial in more than perhaps one game in your lifetime, whereas the advantage you gain from being able to Splice a Desperate Ritual onto itself is much more likely to happen and/or matter.

[HPB_Eggo]

I think you want to max out on Desperate Ritual before you add Pyretic Ritual, instead of the 3/2 split you have. The effect both spells have isn't significant enough for the fact that they have different names to be beneficial in more than perhaps one game in your lifetime, whereas the advantage you gain from being able to Splice a Desperate Ritual onto itself is much more likely to happen and/or matter.

Good catch. I'm fairly certain in that iteration I just cut some rituals to make room for more Burning Wish to test having more than two. Will have to remember to keep that in mind in the future.

[rxavage]

I'd rather have my fetch stifled than grapeshot or EtW. I went back to red for the same reason. Bloodmoon, Defense Grid, and Pyroblast in the side should be enough. Although, I am still testing out various colour splashes.


Also, I agree with Namida. Splicing a desperate ritual onto itself is great and a single mana can make all the difference.

[lochlan]

Thank you to everyone who made suggestions for and comments about my list. It was definitely not a reasonable deck, as it was quite slow, but it was a blast to play (Intuition is ridiculously fun in this deck) and I think had some good ideas.

My new list is much faster and, I suspect, at least closer to optimal:

Main Deck:

4 Burning Wish
2 Empty the Warrens
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Pyromancer Ascension

4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame

4 Manamorphose
4 Faithless Looting
4 Ponder

4 Flusterstorm

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
2 Mountain


Sideboard:

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Banefire
1 Grapeshot
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
3 Sudden Shock
2 Echoing Truth
3 Pyroblast/REB


This is somewhere around a T3/T4 deck with the occasional T2. Making it faster than this would require either the bad red rituals (Desperate Ritual is bad, although I'd play it in a Modern build), Chrome Mox (which is bad with the PiF plan), or adding black (I do think that a RB build could work but I'm not there yet)--plus I'd have to cut either business (which makes D7's weaker) or protection.

Making this a bit faster than my last list with some petals works very well. The petals also enable a T2 miracle'd Reforge, which is nice.

Some comments about the card choices:

1) Faithless Looting is nuts, the drawback is almost never bad . It also makes Pyromancer Ascension much better. I have nothing bad to say about this card.

2) Brainstorm kind of sucks. At first I thought it would be awesome because you can put Reforge back on top. As it turns out, that's not a good play. Casting reforge for 3RR is absolutely fine, and although you do often want to run out artifact mana in case you topdeck Reforge, a miracle'd Reforge isn't necessarily the best play. If you have a grip of rituals it's almost always better to ritual into a hard-cast Reforge. (For the storm, extra mana, more optimal lines of play with PiF, etc.)

3) Ponder is required to find the combo pieces quickly. The built-in shuffle effect means that it's more reliable dig than Brainstorm.

4) Flusterstorm is pretty good, and I ultimately decided on it instead of Silence/Orim's Chant. Chants are better in the combo matchup and better protection when comboing--and the kicker on OC and the non-targeting of Silence are both nice--but I like having actual permission (even if it's conditional). But the real reason I chose it over Chant effects is that I don't think this deck should be running white. I tried Rw but the dig wasn't good enough. I tried Ruw but the manabase, although fine in a vacuum (since it is obviously only a very light white splash), makes the deck weaker to Wasteland. (And if I wanted to do that I'd just play TES, which is much faster as well.)

5) Tendrils of Agony is required. It is the kill surprisingly often, since storm 10 is very easy to reach. After chaining D7, PiF, dig, and so forth, at some point you need to win. If I can play a Burning Wish and a Manamorphose I would way rather Tendrils than make some Goblins or try and reach storm 20 and Grapeshot.

6) Pyromancer Ascension is good, getting two counters on it is very easy. It's an insane enabler, it makes your plan much harder to disrupt, and it's another must-answer card for your opponent. Four is too many, three feels very good to me. Sometimes it's awkward to draw it mid-combo but occasionally it works out well. Some games you never see it, but you don't really need it--yet I wouldn't call it "win more" because it can turn fizzles into wins.

7) I haven't properly tested Sudden Shock yet, it's still just an idea (combo off through a hate bear with an active Mother of Runes)--I'm still focused on tweaking the main deck at the moment. It's possible that Pyroclasm or something else is better--but Sudden Shock with an active Pyromancer Ascension could be amazing. Again, still needs more testing.

8) Gamble sucks. I wanted it to be good, but it sucks. Playing more business is just better. I don't want to Gamble when I have enablers in my hand (If you're playing Gamble with a full grip you're just putting your plan at risk), which means it's only good if I have no hand (or a land I don't care about in hand)--in other words, when I've already started comboing off. So my plan is to, what, spend a mana to find a Past in Flames and put it in my graveyard, where I'll have to spend 5 mana to flash it back? So now PiF is a six mana spell? Seems bad. I'd rather just draw a PiF or a Reforge. And nine times out of ten, Gamble is a terrible top deck. Maybe I'm just playing it wrong or something, but I doubt it. When I had it in my hand it too-rarely felt like a strong play.

9) Intuition is super slow but still bonkers. Another version of this deck I'm trying out is -3 Pyromancer Ascension +2 Intuition +1 Empty the Warrens (obviously substituting something else for the second SB EtW).

This is what I came up with after a lot of thought and fair amount of testing. Suggestions, comments, critiques, and flames are all appreciated.

[rxavage]

Nice, keep working on it. I have a R/B list that can go off turn1 frequently, but just as often turn 3. I've been trying to fit flusterstorm into the R/B build. And I always said gamble gives mixed results, it's great alot of times but then fails other times. Tendril's makes the deck so much easier to win with too. Here's the list I've been working with:



2 Reforge the Soul
2 Past in Flames
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
3 Magma Jet
3 Faithless Looting
4 Thoughtseize
4 Rite of Flame
3 Seething song
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Badlands
3 mountain
2 swamp
4 bloodstained mire

1 Reforge the Soul
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Shattering Spree
1 Pyroclasm
3 Duress
3 Pyroblast

[PunkRocker1134]

I'm going to try lochlan's list but with white instead of blue. The changes look like so:
-4 Ponder
-4 Flusterstorm
-1 Empty
+1 Pyromancer's Ascension
+2 Silence
+2 Orim's Chant
+4 experimental draw spell (see below)
(along with the appropriate manabase changes)

While each experimental draw spell is probably worse than ponder, it might make Rw work. Also, I think chant effects are worlds better protection when going off with draw 7's. I personally don't like Empty for my meta, and think Ascension is probably better. Lochlan mentioned a few reasons why white isn't good, but I'm going to test chants/experimental draw spell over flusterstorm/ponder, and see if the better
protection is worth worse pre-combo dig. I'd really like some other dig though. I'm considering testing the following:
Burning Inquiry
Goblin Lore
Temporary Truce
Dangerous Wager

Dangerous Wager and Burning Inquiry take precedence, but temporary truce has me interested. With chants and the such, its drawback might not be that bad at all. I don't like the discard at random part of Inquiry and Lore, but with the way this deck works, it might not be all that bad. Still, 'm gonna try to test all of these draw spells in the coming weeks and see if Rw can work.

[HPB_Eggo]

Dangerous Wager is actually fairly decent overall.

It certainly seems much better than the other three options you listed, at least at first glance.

I'm still testing the mono-red version of this to see if I can tweak it to work a bit better. Overmaster in the side as a Burning Wish target has been pretty good so far, although it still doesn't deal with Stifle or anything of that sort. Pyromancer's Ascension and Blood Moon coming in games two and three against decks like Tempo Thresh is also excellent, and actually makes those games just as easy, if not easier, in rounds two and three. Not to insinuate that's an easy match-up at all, because it isn't, but those certainly help a lot, especially the Blood Moon.

[Moonspell]

Main Deck:

4 Burning Wish
2 Empty the Warrens
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Pyromancer Ascension

4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame

4 Manamorphose
4 Faithless Looting
4 Ponder

4 Flusterstorm

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
2 Mountain


5) Tendrils of Agony is required. It is the kill surprisingly often, since storm 10 is very easy to reach. After chaining D7, PiF, dig, and so forth, at some point you need to win. If I can play a Burning Wish and a Manamorphose I would way rather Tendrils than make some Goblins or try and reach storm 20 and Grapeshot.

My observation based on your post is that you run two Empty the Warrens but usually want it to be Tendrils of Agony. Why not cut one of the Empty the Warrens for a Tendrils and possibly cut the the second Empty the Warrens for something else? Perhaps G. Probe?

I have not tested this deck at all, just lurking here following this decks development and thought that cutting the Warrens out seems like a good idea.

[lochlan]

Your suggestions are pretty bad. It's a nice thought to offer suggestions, but if you haven't tested this deck or the cards you are mentioning then you're basically just cluttering up the thread.

Considering that this is a UR deck and Tendrils requires either unlikely artifact mana configurations or Manamorphose, I cannot see how main deck Tendrils could possibly be good. Sounds like a great way to put a dead card into my hand. And why would I cut the numbers of the single win condition that doesn't depend on the graveyard? Seems bad. (Chaining D7's without using the GY almost never happens.) If anything I want more EtW, not less. As for Gitaxian Probe, my game plan doesn't really change depending on the cards in my opponent's hand. The cantrip might be nice but I'm not sure what slot I would use for this. If I cut Ponder for Probe I could cut blue, but then I'm back to bad cantrips and a worse main deck configuration again. Maybe there's a list for Probe but I don't think this is it, at least in its current iteration.

@rxavage: any chance you could change the name of this thread to something like "Reforge the Soul combo"? "Firestorm" is an actual card, but--based on the posts in here--it seems like the goal is to find a shell for Reforge.dec, not push for a particular configuration.

[rxavage]

I don't know how to change the thread title, so a pm with instructions would be kind. I will change the thread title to "Reforge the Soul combo discussion". Despite firestorm already being a card it is what I call the mono red version regardless.

[Flaat]

Not me but stolen from Taco for its epicness, circa 2007:

This may have nothing to do with Flash, but I was so amused by it I had to bring it up. IBA suggests Brightstone Ritual as a bizarre answer to Empty the Warrens, so I started testing it against some ETW tossing decks. Here's one of my best results ever and quite possibly the best turn one in the history of Vial Goblins:

Opponent: Turn one, ridiculous shit, 16 ETW Tokens:

Me: (Opening Hand: Plateau, Wasteland, Brightstone Ritual, Brightstone Ritual, Warchief, Ringleader, Matron)

-Plateau, Ritual for 16, Warchief, Ringleader (10 floating.)
-(Ringleader hits Ringleader, Gempalm, Piledriver.)
-Ringleader (7 Floating.)
-(Ringleader hits Matron, Matron, Sharpshooter, Piledriver. Sweet!)
-Matron for Ringleader, Piledriver, Ringleader (1 Floating).
-(Ringleader hits Lackey, SGC)
-Brightstone Ritual for 22, Piledriver, Matron for Matron, Matron for Driver, Matron for Driver, Piledriver, Piledriver, Sharpshooter, Lackey, Gempalm, Siege-Gang (5 Floating.)
-Sharpshooter off all tokens.
-Mana Burn for 5.
-Swing for 179.

After seeing this post in the ridiculous plays thread i wondered if anyone ever tried this sort of deck with 3x empty the warrens + wishable maindeck and 4x brightstone ritual. using warrens as a kill and combo enabler at the same time seems kinda cool.

[rxavage]

After seeing this post in the ridiculous plays thread i wondered if anyone ever tried this sort of deck with 3x empty the warrens + wishable maindeck and 4x brightstone ritual. using warrens as a kill and combo enabler at the same time seems kinda cool.

I actually picked up a playset I found in the 6/1$ box but I've yet to test them. Usually you've used all or most of your resources to get to the point of casting EtW and the game should be won.

[Illissius]

This deck really wants Ruby Medallion.

The last list I was goldfishing looked like this:

4 Ruby Medallion
4 Burning Wish
3 Gamble
4 Faithless Looting
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Overmaster
3 Grapeshot
3 Past in Flames
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
4 Desperate Ritual
2 Pyretic Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
7 Mountain
2 Chrome Mox
SB: 4 Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon
SB: 3 Arc-Slogger
SB: 3 Moltensteel Dragon
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Shattering Spree

It didn't seem fast enough or consistent enough or well-protected enough to be a real deck (albeit what do I know), but Ruby Medallion was surpassed in its brokenness only by Past in Flames itself.

Also the title of the thread is misleading. I was looking to see if anyone else had tried out this deck because it looks obvious but didn't find anything, and only clicked on it weeks later because I thought it was a discussion about Firestorm which is a cool card. But this is probably known. (Personally I call it RubyMedallion.dec which is less appropriate for versions which don't include it.)

[lochlan]

This deck really wants Ruby Medallion.

That's a really interesting addition and I will have to try it out.


4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors


I stopped working on this deck awhile ago, but one of the things I tried out a couple months ago before I moved on to new brews was Sol lands. I think that with a mono red deck you kind of need them (your spells are so expensive, after all--which is surely why you went for the Medallion).


It didn't seem fast enough or consistent enough.

I completely agree. The problem is that it doesn't have enough card draw/selection. When Wild Guess was spoiled and subsequently released I tried it out in this deck. It was awesome...except that I had a hard time hitting :r::r: consistently with the Sol Lands. And I need the Sol Lands to have any hope of being fast enough.

If Wizards releases another card draw spell in red with a single :r: then this will be a real deck. (Maybe not a "top" deck, but a real deck.) Given Faithless Looting and Wild Guess, I would not be surprised if they did this, they seem to be all about giving red card draw lately (as long as it has discard attached to it as well).


Also the title of the thread is misleading.

Yep. It's a bad deck name too :frown: Honestly, though, this thread is all over the place. If you keep working on your mono-red brew you should probably just start a new thread.

[Vacrix]

Entomb could be potentially be more Gambles if you want to specialize and just run a singleton PiF to save space. Also, Catalyst Stone seems like it could be better than Ruby Medallion. Catalyst Stone is fantastic versus Dredge as well as against Snapcaster Mages, Cabal Therapies, etc.

[Illissius]

I stopped working on this deck awhile ago, but one of the things I tried out a couple months ago before I moved on to new brews was Sol lands. I think that with a mono red deck you kind of need them (your spells are so expensive, after all--which is surely why you went for the Medallion).

My thought process at least wasn't "do I need them" it was "would they help", and they obviously would. A turn 1 Medallion is the best, but with or without Medallion there's a lot of colorless mana costs available to soak up the :2:. Ditto for Medallion. Over the course of a combo turn it can "produce" something like 5-10 mana which is a pretty nice ritual, especially since the cost of the Medallion itself will often have been paid in a previous turn. There was an old mono-black Storm combo deck with Jet Medallions that people were playing with a few years ago which is where I got the idea. I was trying to add Bosium Strips to it at the time to simulate Yawgmoth's Will, but now that they actually reprinted Yawgmoth's Will for us with flashback it's a lot more straightforward. :)



I completely agree. The problem is that it doesn't have enough card draw/selection. When Wild Guess was spoiled and subsequently released I tried it out in this deck. It was awesome...except that I had a hard time hitting :r::r: consistently with the Sol Lands. And I need the Sol Lands to have any hope of being fast enough.

Wild Guess doesn't look efficient enough, though I didn't test it. But yeah, that's the same problem I had when I was tinkering with R/u builds. If you could play 8-10 Manamorphose then maybe it could work, but otherwise most of your Rituals don't make blue, which means you suddenly have to make your blue mana up front, which doubles your initial colored mana requirements or worse (the mono-red version has no trouble going off from a single red mana).

Edit: Did I mention how broken Ruby Medallion is with Manamorphose? It goes from just a cantrip to the best ritual in the deck (and probably ever printed).



Yep. It's a bad deck name too :frown: Honestly, though, this thread is all over the place. If you keep working on your mono-red brew you should probably just start a new thread.

The best title for the thread would probably just be Red Storm Combo. But I'm definitely not putting the kind of effort into this to justify a new thread, it's just a little tinkering for fun.



Entomb could be potentially be more Gambles if you want to specialize and just run a singleton PiF to save space. Also, Catalyst Stone seems like it could be better than Ruby Medallion. Catalyst Stone is fantastic versus Dredge as well as against Snapcaster Mages, Cabal Therapies, etc.

I don't think I want more Gambles. Gamble is one those unsastisfying cards the deck is forced into playing because red doesn't have anything better. So it's definitely not worth splashing black for a worse version of it - if any color is worth splashing then it's blue.

Catalyst Stone is a novel idea. It would be better than Ruby Medallion for the flashback of Faithless Looting and Past in Flames, and for Seething Song after you're already in Flames, and the rest don't require more than a single colorless mana. But it does nothing for anything the first time you cast things, and God forbid if you want to combo (mini-combo) without the graveyard. I think Medallion is definitely better, but maybe it's worth testing a copy or two of Catalyst Stone in addition to it. (The fact that it messes with your opponents' flashbacks seems like only an ancillary benefit. If this were a deck that wanted to interact with its opponent then it wouldn't be combo.)