Buying in to Vintage

[CorpT]

Anyone have any advice on how to get into Vintage the cheapest? I'd like to start buying some power to play at Vintage Champs at Gen Con. So far I'm just trying to get it through eBay, but was hoping there were some other suggestions. I'm not really looking for anything but playable Unlimited at this point.

Any suggestions regarding deck choice?

[socialite]

Check out TMD (http://www.themanadrain.com/). I'm super lazy right now but when I'm feeling less lazy (tomorrow) I'll have a bunch of answers for you.

Welcome to the club! The format is in great shape and currently just as diverse as Legacy.

Here's (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44186.0) a tournament I attended over the past weekend, so you can get an idea of how diverse the meta is right now/deck names for Google.

Morphling.de (http://morphling.de/) is a great resource for T8 deck lists across the entire world.

[Leftconsin]

If you don't mind it, buy HP. And try to deal shop. I bought my moxen at in order 250 G,300 W,400 B(it was minty),225 G,225 R,250 B, and 250 U. AND the second Jet and the Sapphire were only last year. Power is kinda plateaued right now.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I won a Recall at a Vintage event and got the bug (Gunslinga you were there I believe). So far I've only bought a Lotus and some Mana Drains. I'd really like to play Panther Stax, but so far away.

[Koby]

I won a Recall at a Vintage event and got the bug (Gunslinga you were there I believe). So far I've only bought a Lotus and some Mana Drains. I'd really like to play Panther Stax, but so far away.

Much the same, I had no interest in Sanctioned legal Vintage deck until I won my first piece of power (Sapphire :D), then started buying the other pieces along the way when I found the price and condition I liked.

Give yourself about 2-3 years to finish the set - it's definitely a slow process. Even longer if you intend on playing Cat Stax (Workshops are also pricey)

[CorpT]

Thanks for the tips. That's basically what I'm seeing. I've basically been given a free pass to go to GenCon every year, and while there, I want to play as much MTG as possible, so my goal is to play in Vintage Champs. This year might be a dredge sort of year as Bazaars seem a lot easier to pick up for reasonable prices. But I think my goal is going to be working towards a decent set of power.

Has anyone done much with taking SCG prize winnings and turning them into power? I know SCGs prices are pretty high on pwoer, but they do give extra in prize if you take credit over cash. Was thinking about doing that.

[Koby]

When I scoped out their inventory last November, it was sparse. It's almost better to just take the cash option and find your own sellers.

[csy]

this is how I started getting into vintage.


It was a modern PTQ in sunny costa mesa. The women's club was filled with as much BO and throat farts as 1 human body could handle. After scrubbing out hard I decided during the lunch break I would acquire some alcohol and pop from the nearby convenience market. After purchasing a fools bounty in Jack Daniels and Coke I returned to the event to begin drinking with my friends. One buzz lead to another and I was selling all my standard/modern staples that I didnt need for legacy and putting a little cash down on a Mox Emerald and a Time Twister.

boom, bug acquired. So now Im almost there with a trade for a few more pieces and I've picked up drains/libraries etc along the way. Love this damn format its so good.

[H]

Any suggestions regarding deck choice?

I think buying Blue power is the best "investment" from the standpoint of playing. With it, you can make a great deal of completely different decks.

Bazaars and Shops only lend themselves to a very limited variety of decks, really.

If i went to make a "buy order" of money cards to get into Vintage, I think it would be something like this:

1.) Duals
2.) Black Lotus
3.) Mox Sapphire
4.) Mox Jet
5.) Mox Ruby
6.) Ancestral Recall
7.) Time Walk
8.) Mox Emerald
9.) Mox Pearl
10.) Time Vault
11.) Bazaar of Baghdad
12.) Mishra's Workshop

Maybe Recall should be higher than Ruby, maybe Time Walk too. If it was me though, I would get full jewelry first, then Recall, but it is up to you, depending on what decks you really want to play.


Here's (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44186.0) a tournament I attended over the past weekend, so you can get an idea of how diverse the meta is right now/deck names for Google.

Indeed, we here in the NE are lucky to have a good, vibrant Vintage scene. I went 1-3 at that event and it was still a pretty good time really.

I happened to get "lucky" and pick up most of my power all at one time, I played something like 3 grand for everything but a Jet, with 2 Bazaars and and Shop as well (all in good shape too). Saved a bit of money that way, but granted not everyone is going to get an offer like that.

[Mark Sun]

I'm waiting to pop my Black Lotus cherry until the end :laugh:

I had Power, grinded most of it, and am now regretting it a little bit. I think having a legal deck at Gen Con this year is out of the question, but will look to do so in the following year.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I think buying Blue power is the best "investment" from the standpoint of playing. With it, you can make a great deal of completely different decks.

Bazaars and Shops only lend themselves to a very limited variety of decks, really.

If i went to make a "buy order" of money cards to get into Vintage, I think it would be something like this:

1.) Duals
2.) Black Lotus
3.) Mox Sapphire
4.) Mox Jet
5.) Mox Ruby
6.) Ancestral Recall
7.) Time Walk
8.) Mox Emerald
9.) Mox Pearl
10.) Time Vault
11.) Bazaar of Baghdad
12.) Mishra's Workshop

Maybe Recall should be higher than Ruby, maybe Time Walk too. If it was me though, I would get full jewelry first, then Recall, but it is up to you, depending on what decks you really want to play.



Indeed, we here in the NE are lucky to have a good, vibrant Vintage scene. I went 1-3 at that event and it was still a pretty good time really.

I happened to get "lucky" and pick up most of my power all at one time, I played something like 3 grand for everything but a Jet, with 2 Bazaars and and Shop as well (all in good shape too). Saved a bit of money that way, but granted not everyone is going to get an offer like that.

I'd say
#1 Lotus- Only Dredge doesn't run Lotus and even some Dredge lists run it.
#2 Sapphire
#3 Recall
#4 Time Walk
#5 Jet
#6+7 Ruby/Emerald
Then Pearl, Workshops, Bazaars, Drains, Vault, and such depending on what types of decks you like to play.

[Basaka]

I also want to buy into Vintage, but I'm working less this year (to focus more on study), and won't have the funds. Maybe I should sell my foiled out TES... =/

[nedleeds]

Vintage is awesome. I've sold my power a couple of times since college, but started buying back in last fall. I've picked up

jet, emerald, pearl, time walk, timetwister all beta and played ... the premium for near mint or mint power is absurd especially if you intend to put them in sleeves and shuffle ... I haven't found the right deal on a beta lotus, ruby, sapphire and ancestral yet, maybe something will turn up at origins or gencon.

We played some vintage at the local store this weekend and I busted out Dark Hate Bears ... it was pretty fun. I either crushed (shops, landstill) or got my ball sack stomped (doomsday, bant) or barely lost (oath).

[CorpT]

That's where I'm struggling. Because, in general I completely agree with your lists. I had one similar. The problem is that if I buy in on Bazaars now, for about the price of 1 or 2 Moxen and less than the cost of a Lotus, I can be in and playing. If I wait and get the pieces in the more proper order, I'll be waiting for a lot longer to even get in.

[H]

That's where I'm struggling. Because, in general I completely agree with your lists. I had one similar. The problem is that if I buy in on Bazaars now, for about the price of 1 or 2 Moxen and less than the cost of a Lotus, I can be in and playing. If I wait and get the pieces in the more proper order, I'll be waiting for a lot longer to even get in.

Well, you are right. You have to do what you feel is going to get you where you want to be in the time frame you want to be there.

If you want to "fast track" into Sanctioned, Bazaars are a good way to do so. Once you do get blue Power, you can even bring them over to that side eventually and play Dragon, if you want.

[nedleeds]

Or just buy beta Savannahs and play hateful bears. Then use your Savannahs in Legacy.

Bears with venom, Bears that bind, Bears used like weapons to cloud my mind.

[Octopusman]

When was the last time TMWA or Christmas Beatings was competitive? It doesn't seem like a lot has changed. If anything, metamorph is probably a better answer than stingscourger now.

If you don't run recruiters it's a fairly cheap deck to assemble and super fun if you're a sadist like myself.

I haven't had the finances or the willpower to play a "real" deck since I sold my alpha time vault for like $90 pre-un-errata. :cry:

[Koby]

When was the last time TMWA or Christmas Beatings was competitive? It doesn't seem like a lot has changed. If anything, metamorph is probably a better answer than stingscourger now.


Ozymandias swears by Mountains in Vintage. I think he's just a bit loco myself, but he has fun. :laugh:

[nedleeds]

Laying a turn one Волхв Луны or Кровавая луна is usually GG in vintage. Shops can pull out of it, but the same decks that run those two cards usually run Viashino-Ketzer ... and he absolutely stomps shops.

[H]

When was the last time TMWA or Christmas Beatings was competitive? It doesn't seem like a lot has changed. If anything, metamorph is probably a better answer than stingscourger now.

If you don't run recruiters it's a fairly cheap deck to assemble and super fun if you're a sadist like myself.

I haven't had the finances or the willpower to play a "real" deck since I sold my alpha time vault for like $90 pre-un-errata. :cry:

John Jones won an event with RG beats last year. Versus good competition too, he beat P. Mas. in the finals to take it down. Here is the Tournament Report (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43418.0).

[Octopusman]

John Jones won an event with RG beats last year. Versus good competition too, he beat P. Mas. in the finals to take it down. Here is the Tournament Report (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43418.0).

Thank you.

[Koby]

Laying a turn one Волхв Луны or Кровавая луна is usually GG in vintage. Shops can pull out of it, but the same decks that run those two cards usually run Viashino-Ketzer ... and he absolutely stomps shops.

I love me a good Moon MUD, but man does it have trouble against Oath. Like, needs to get 50% more lucky than normal just to have a chance. For those counting at home, that's 130% lucky.

Bant Fish is quite a fun list that uses blue power while not requiring Time Vault, Tinker package, Mox Ruby/Jet and still feels really strong. FoW + Goyf + Stony Silence runs a nice dagger on the format right now. Also, Jace to your face.

[CorpT]

Bant Fish is quite a fun list that uses blue power while not requiring Time Vault, Tinker package, Mox Ruby/Jet and still feels really strong. FoW + Goyf + Stony Silence runs a nice dagger on the format right now. Also, Jace to your face.

That was my original intention. That's not looking very good for GenCon this year. I can probably do Dredge though. Not expecting great results, but it will be fun :)

[Picc]

That was my original intention. That's not looking very good for GenCon this year. I can probably do Dredge though. Not expecting great results, but it will be fun :)

Last year I did gencon with rods chalices and time vault. I got rofl powned but it was still the most fun Ive had playing magic in ages. Going back this year with a lotus, twister, and vault still expecting to get powned but it will be fun none the less.

[CorpT]

Last year I did gencon with rods chalices and time vault. I got rofl powned but it was still the most fun Ive had playing magic in ages. Going back this year with a lotus, twister, and vault still expecting to get powned but it will be fun none the less.

That's awesome to hear. Definitely my hopes. To be fair, it's hard not to have fun at Gen Con :)

[bruizar]

Just buy bazaars. Dredge is degenerate, cheap and 1 of the 3 pillars you need to complete. (Workshop, Dredge, Blue). I wouldn't try to make ANT nor would I play hatebears in Vintage. If you want to play hatebears, it will just feel like you're playing a legacy deck against awesome vintage decks which feels unfair. Vintage is pretty cheap compared to what I'm playing in legacy.

Also, I wouldn't buy Lotus because most decks play it, I would buy it for the Lotus-Yawgmoth's Will-Lotus play. If you're playing dredge and you have Bazaars, the first pieces of power you will pick up are Ancestral Recall, Sapphire and Lotus, which are great starting points.

[Solaran_X]

Just buy bazaars. Dredge is degenerate, cheap and 1 of the 3 pillars you need to complete. (Workshop, Dredge, Blue). I wouldn't try to make ANT nor would I play hatebears in Vintage. If you want to play hatebears, it will just feel like you're playing a legacy deck against awesome vintage decks which feels unfair. Vintage is pretty cheap compared to what I'm playing in legacy.

Also, I wouldn't buy Lotus because most decks play it, I would buy it for the Lotus-Yawgmoth's Will-Lotus play. If you're playing dredge and you have Bazaars, the first pieces of power you will pick up are Ancestral Recall, Sapphire and Lotus, which are great starting points.
Actually, Vintage has Five Pillars.

1) Blue-based
2) Bazaar-based
3) Workshop-based
4) Dark Ritual-based
5) Null Rod-based (now includes Stony Silence-based)

[mrjumbo03]

Actually, Vintage has Five Pillars.

1) Blue-based
2) Bazaar-based
3) Workshop-based
4) Dark Ritual-based
5) Null Rod-based (now includes Stony Silence-based)

No love for Oath? Oh and isn't Dark Ritual-based dead as of the moment?

[socialite]

No love for Oath? Oh and isn't Dark Ritual-based dead as of the moment?

Traditionally BBC breaks down into 5-8 different sub-archetypes; Oath of Druids being one of them.

Ritual based combo is on the rise due to a large shift to creature based strategies thanks to the power creep in recent printings. Tendrils of Agony is still a fantastic way to circumvent decks whose sole initiative is to Time Walk figuratively and literally while developing only their board state.

Also T1 deck hierarchy is a lot more complicated than most formats. A common misconception is to assume most decks play out the same based on color consideration and restricted choices when in fact decks that look similar play out very differently. Even the pillars are a point of contention and in all honestly it's impossible to actually nail it on the head as the subject matter is mostly a point of individual perception.

I'd like to point out that Dredge is a very fair deck and not something I consider degenerate. That being said it's an excellent first choice when considering the lack of cost as a limiting factor.

[menace13]

I'd like to point out that Dredge is a very fair deck and not something I consider degenerate. That being said it's an excellent first choice when considering the lack of cost as a limiting factor.
I'd like to point out that it is very unfair and the only deck in the entire format requiring half of everyones sideboard space. Mulliganing to 1 for Bazaar and winning is not unheard of. I dont know of a deck that can do that.

[socialite]

I'd like to point out that it is very unfair and the only deck in the entire format requiring half of everyones sideboard space. Mulliganing to 1 for Bazaar and winning is not unheard of. I dont know of a deck that can do that.

Your narrow view has been rehashed over (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43364.0) and over (see TMD Vintage Issues sub forum) so I'm not going to harp on how wrong you are. As the premier aggro deck Dredge does quite a bit for the format from a health standpoint and I'll leave it at that. This is coming from a traditional BBC player - someone who has to relegate 6-7 cards in his sideboard every tournament and is fine with it.

[menace13]

Your narrow view has been rehashed over (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43364.0) and over (see TMD Vintage Issues sub forum) so I'm not going to harp on how wrong you are. As the premier aggro deck Dredge does quite a bit for the format from a health standpoint and I'll leave it at that. This is coming from a traditional BBC player - someone who has to relegate 6-7 cards in his sideboard every tournament and is fine with it.
Harp on how wrong I am? Either you're stupid or you're stupid. I'm fine with both.

[socialite]

CorpT, if you're actually interested in playing Dredge I'd take some time and check out the SCG articles of Matt Elias and Mark Hornung. A Dutch player by the handle of Mantis on TMD also produces Dredge posts of worthwhile quality. Most of the information is a little dated fortunately much of Dredge is cyclic in nature depending on what hate your opponents are on so it's still relevant.

[CorpT]

CorpT, if you're actually interested in playing Dredge I'd take some time and check out the SCG articles of Matt Elias and Mark Hornung. A Dutch player by the handle of Mantis on TMD also produces Dredge posts of worthwhile quality. Most of the information is a little dated fortunately much of Dredge is cyclic in nature depending on what hate your opponents are on so it's still relevant.

Thanks. I've been digging through some of the older articles trying to figure it out. Those are great places to start. Thanks!

[xfxf]

Dredge does quite a bit for the format from a health standpoint and I'll leave it at that. This is coming from a traditional BBC player - someone who has to relegate 6-7 cards in his sideboard every tournament and is fine with it.

I'm not very experienced with Vintage but leaving 6-7 SB slots for a single deck every tournament just can't be healthy in any format. 6-7 for god's sake!?

[Solaran_X]

I'm not very experienced with Vintage but leaving 6-7 SB slots for a single deck every tournament just can't be healthy in any format. 6-7 for god's sake!?
It's not really for a "single deck." There are a lot of decks that are impeded by graveyard-based hate, so they aren't dead cards in your board if you aren't facing Dredge. These cards are just especially useful against Dredge because the graveyard is Dredge's "hand."

[Koby]

This thread makes me with Grand Prix Anaheim could come sooner so I could play in the Vintage event!

[Solaran_X]

I'll be jamming some Vintage at GP: Columbus in July.

[socialite]

I'm not very experienced with Vintage but leaving 6-7 SB slots for a single deck every tournament just can't be healthy in any format. 6-7 for god's sake!?

This (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43818.0) and this (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43809.0) are juicy reads. Essentially, the point Menace opted to bring up was similarly brought up by Brian Demars right after Dredge won the Vintage Championship in 2011; it spawned some interesting discussion.

Currently my "anti Dredge" package includes the following:

1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Yixlid Jailer
1 Ravenous Trap

Really the only cards sided solely for Dredge are the Jailers. Four cards is not an unreasonable number for a single match up.

The other three are played because each provides a myriad of options versus a large number and variety of meta contenders.

On the surface the number of cards effectively used against Dredge looks unhealthy but there is a lot more that factors in. If you feel like being educated I suggest you browse those threads and read some articles from authors I previously mentioned.

The "menace" of Dredge is just another Vintage misconception fueled by ignorance.

[xfxf]

I'll read those, always interested in learning more.

I'd say the majority of that ignorance comes from the lack of mediums to play, learn, discuss, read about Vintage as opposed to the more popular formats like Legacy. When I browse to TMD most threads are dead for months. Unless you have a close Vintage play group you don't get much exposure to in-depth strategy.

A Vintage subforum here would be very nice to have imo, because we have a very active members group, quite a number of Vintage players and we already have Modern, EDH subforums so... :)

[socialite]

I'll read those, always interested in learning more.

I'd say the majority of that ignorance comes from the lack of mediums to play, learn, discuss, read about Vintage as opposed to the more popular formats like Legacy. When I browse to TMD most threads are dead for months. Unless you have a close Vintage play group you don't get much exposure to in-depth strategy.

A Vintage subforum here would be very nice to have imo, because we have a very active members group, quite a number of Vintage players and we already have Modern, EDH subforums so... :)

Understandably so and I agree.

[Koby]

Also, no one actually enjoys playtesting vs Dredge. That in part, leads to poor performance of hating it out effectively.

[nedleeds]

If you want to play hatebears, it will just feel like you're playing a legacy deck against awesome vintage decks which feels unfair. Vintage is pretty cheap compared to what I'm playing in legacy.

Eh. Playing hate bears is fun because you make the other guy fucking miserable. Having a shops player who is used to making every blue player miserable just shake his head and scoop up his cards in the face of Kataki, Thalia and some exalted guys after having his 2nd workshop ghost quartered is some fun. Advocating "playing" dredge but not hate bears it pretty absurd. Vintage Dredge is an exercise in masturbation and mulliganing ... just like legacy dredge.

I played 4 pieces of power in my Dark Hate Bear deck despite often wanting to land Stony Silence. You can also beta out the Savannah's and easily spend more than unlimited moxes.

[CorpT]

Got my first Bazaar yesterday and picking up two more next weekend. On my way :)

Thanks for the help everyone. There was some great advice here.

[Koby]

Got my first Bazaar yesterday and picking up two more next weekend. On my way :)

Thanks for the help everyone. There was some great advice here.

Good luck, and some tips with Vintage Dredge -
- Assume your graveyard will not exist in G2/G3. Either play enough hate to counter it, and possibly board into more lands (2 extra Gemstone Mines perhaps).
- Firestorm is a good out to Yixlid jailer, which is showing up more often.

[Basaka]

Question: How hard would it be to trade up into power?

I have a handful of duals, a set of goyfs, some high-end foils (StP, tangle wire, some others), and I can probably trade away my foiled TES (Still have esper-blade and high tide), which is pretty much all english foiled, with FBB german duals.

Would those trade fairly easily into power, and without having excess trade-up percentages? (i.e. standard into dual margins)

[Koby]

Question: How hard would it be to trade up into power?



this is how I started getting into vintage.


...
One buzz lead to another and I was selling all my standard/modern staples that I didnt need for legacy and putting a little cash down on a Mox Emerald and a Time Twister.

boom, bug acquired. So now Im almost there with a trade for a few more pieces and I've picked up drains/libraries etc along the way. Love this damn format its so good.

[Basaka]

@Koby:

Well, I don't exactly live in a country with that many pieces of power floating around. Only one store has some in stock, and they trade at SCG buylist prices, so that's off.
The only player I really see with spare power ALSO sells his cards at SCG prices.

I'm left with MOTL, pretty much lol

[Koby]

@Koby:

Well, I don't exactly live in a country with that many pieces of power floating around. Only one store has some in stock, and they trade at SCG buylist prices, so that's off.
The only player I really see with spare power ALSO sells his cards at SCG prices.

I'm left with MOTL, pretty much lol

Ya MOTL is definitely the slow process if you're without a lot of liquid funds. There are a few sellers there that trade power, but it's hit/miss with what they are looking to get in credit.

[menace13]

Good luck, and some tips with Vintage Dredge -
- Assume your graveyard will not exist in G2/G3. Either play enough hate to counter it, and possibly board into more lands (2 extra Gemstone Mines perhaps).
- Firestorm is a good out to Yixlid jailer, which is showing up more often.
Play something built by Elias or one of the Gans brothers.

G2/3 If you don't see Leyline turn 0 It's probably safe to assume the hand was kept with other hate(Cage/Jailer) or a quick Tinker/Oath/combo. Blind Sniping with Therapy is crucial. Unmask is good right now.

MUD will almost always have Cage/Crypt/Relic. Other decks will vary their hate.

Dismember or Contagion(Hits multiple Jailers) might be better with Misstep around.

Chewer and Wispmare dodges Misstep/Pierce/Fluster/Duress/Thorn Of Am/Chalice and can sometimes get you bridge tokens(Rarely can DReturn for their come into play effect)

[CorpT]

Thanks for the help guys. AT GP:Minneapolis, I managed to finish my Bazaars. I then spent a few hours goldfishing Dredge in the hotel room :)

Thanks!

http://i.imgur.com/XhhBS.jpg

Couldn't pass up on the Candelabras. They're not for Dredge though. They're beat, but they were cheap :)