Article- Caleb Durward's Legacy Weapon "The best combo deck in Legacy"

[ivanpei]

Meh, I think it's sensationalism. He's pushing the deck too hard. He even compares it to sneak show and says it's BETTER. ZOMG, this guys asleep or what? Just by looking at the lists, I can immediately see many problems.

The deck is too clunky, it simply needs TOO MANY combo components. Conflux + Proggy + Show and Tell + Dream Halls + Temporal is 19, which is 3 more than Sneak Show. Also, the components are not interchangeable like Conflux + Show and Tell= Dud. Dream Halls + Proggy= Mega Slow. Too get it right, he has to run a full set on Intuition which is a terrible card.

In Sneak Show, I've already cut Intuition because it's very slow and forces you to drop your double lands early instead of basics. Also, since Griselbrand-Emrakul are interchangeable, it's very easy to assemble the combo. Saying that this deck is better than Sneak Show is a joke, let alone the best combo deck in legacy. The guy is trying to sell temporal for CFB which is otherwise a cheap, little played mythic.

Dream halls was bad and is still bad. How many MD counters does it run? 4 Force + 2 Daze, that's it because it needs slots for tutors and temporal. In Sneak Show, I can play 10 counters, 10 cantrips because the combo is so compact and easy to assemble. When talking about manabase vulnerability, sneak plays 4 basics, so you can drop basics the first few turn and only the Volc/double land on your combo turn to dodge wasteland. You only need red for Sneak so there is no need to drop your volcs early.

Caleb sounds totally nooby in this article.

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-the-best-combo-deck-in-legacy/

[lordofthepit]

Meh, I think it's sensationalism. He's pushing the deck too hard. He even compares it to sneak show and says it's BETTER. ZOMG, this guys asleep or what? Just by looking at the lists, I can immediately see many problems.

The deck is too clunky, it simply needs TOO MANY combo components. Conflux + Proggy + Show and Tell + Dream Halls + Temporal is 19, which is 3 more than Sneak Show. Also, the components are not interchangeable like Conflux + Show and Tell= Dud. Dream Halls + Proggy= Mega Slow. Too get it right, he has to run a full set on Intuition which is a terrible card.

In Sneak Show, I've already cut Intuition because it's very slow and forces you to drop your double lands early instead of basics. Also, since Griselbrand-Emrakul are interchangeable, it's very easy to assemble the combo. Saying that this deck is better than Sneak Show is a joke, let alone the best combo deck in legacy. The guy is trying to sell temporal for CFB which is otherwise a cheap, little played mythic.

Dream halls was bad and is still bad. How many MD counters does it run? 4 Force + 2 Daze, that's it because it needs slots for tutors and temporal. In Sneak Show, I can play 10 counters, 10 cantrips because the combo is so compact and easy to assemble. When talking about manabase vulnerability, sneak plays 4 basics, so you can drop basics the first few turn and only the Volc/double land on your combo turn to dodge wasteland. You only need red for Sneak so there is no need to drop your volcs early.

Caleb sounds totally nooby in this article.

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-the-best-combo-deck-in-legacy/

I think Dream Halls is a better deck than you give it credit for, and so far, that list uses Temporal Mastery better than any other decklist I've seen.

That being said, Dream Halls is not the best combo deck in Legacy, and Temporal Mastery is (was?) overrated.

[Pippin]

This is just random attempt of sticking Temporal Mastery into a tier 3 deck and calling it a success.
If you really need the extra turns to beat face with Progenitus/whatnot why not just play Time Stretch then? It works better with Dream Halls.
Is the Explore argument that relevant? Wohoohoo, turn 4 Dream Halls instead of turn 5... Of course, if you throw your Brainstorm away to do that.

On the other hand... I guess not so good Mythics need propaganda to sell and justify the price that some people paid in hope that it's the next Jace.

[ivanpei]

This is just random attempt of sticking Temporal Mastery into a tier 3 deck and calling it a success.
If you really need the extra turns to beat face with Progenitus/whatnot why not just play Time Stretch then? It works better with Dream Halls.
Is the Explore argument that relevant? Wohoohoo, turn 4 Dream Halls instead of turn 5... Of course, if you throw your Brainstorm away to do that.

On the other hand... I guess not so good Mythics need propaganda to sell and justify the price that some people paid in hope that it's the next Jace.

Yup money grabbing through articles/misinformation is just... I don't know. It makes my blood boil.

[xfxf]

Yup money grabbing through articles/misinformation is just... I don't know. It makes my blood boil.

Not particularly directed at Caleb's article but +1.

[Einherjer]

Dream Halls is a deck?

[DrHealex]

Dream Halls is a deck?

It plays FoW, Brainstorms, Show and Tells, and Islands.... So it MUST be a deck :D

[leegoo]

I think dream halls is fine for the record. Not better than the other S&T decks imo (less lapover than Sneak and less hard counters than Hive Mind), but fine nonetheless.

Although Ari somewhat answered my concern in the comments box... it's unconvincing to me that cutting the false cure + beacon kill (plus another card) for the Prog + TM kill is beneficial (although I suppose in *some* scenario's it trades drawn do nothings into drawn do something sometimes.)

The "deck can use explore" argument is fairly iffy too in my opinion... the deck could already have a t2 Dream Halls / Prog pretty regularly and T3 Hardcast DH isn't unreasonable.

Now with Gristlebrand in the mix, I can't imagine playing a deck with S&T without him...

[Lord Seth]

Dream Halls is a deck?One made it to the top 8 in a recent SCG.

Link (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45624) if you're curious.

[Finn]

I bet Temporal Mastery will prove to be a powerful card still. The naysayers are overreacting again. I'm unconvinced of it making Dream Halls tier 1. I have faced it and toyed with it enough to see how bulky it is.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Compared to advocating Deranged Hermit, this seems pretty reasonable. I like that he cut the Ultimatums at least.

[Tao]

Don't be dissing the Hermit.

[Antonius]

you need 5+ cards in hand to go off with (single) protection.


tupac's gonna kill you from his grave. that's whack.

[bruizar]

Too get it right, he has to run a full set on Intuition which is a terrible card.http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-the-best-combo-deck-in-legacy/

Let me just quote you on that. Sounds pretty nooby if you ask me.

EDIT: Otherwise valid points. There was already Time Stretch (used with Prog or Nicol Bolas to beat problematic boards) as a win condition, so you don't need as many cards as he's using. He's acting like a time walk is the answer to all of the deck's problems, while in fact, it makes the deck even more convoluted.

This is his list:
7 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 City of Traitors
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Progenitus
4 Ponder
3 Lotus Petal
4 Intuition
4 Dream Halls
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
4 Show and Tell
4 Conflux
4 Force of Will
3 Temporal Mastery
Sideboard
3 Dispel
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 False Cure
1 Beacon of Immortality
4 Leyline of Sanctity

I'm pretty sure 4x Conflux is way too much. He's opting for 4 Progenitus because he runs show and tell, but I'm not sure if that's really the right number either. You can only resolve 1 so it's just pitch food. If you want to go with Progenitus beats, just go with Sneak Show. Dream Halls has to offer something that's different from Sneak Show in order to compete.

Just for fun, here's an old vintage dream halls list I made back in the days. It shows how you can reduce the number of combo cards in the deck quiet well:



/Mana
4 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

//Tutors
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Conflux
1 Research // Development

// HALLS
4 Dream Halls

//Counters
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Pact of Negation
2 Misdirection

//Draw & Disruption
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
3 Duress
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ponder
1 Cruel Ultimatum (May be replaced by a useful {R} {U} or {R} {B} or {W} {U}, {W} {B}, or hybrid spell)
1 Stifle

//Broken
1 Yawgmoth's Will


//Sideboard
1 Conflux
1 Research // Development
1 Tendrils of Agony
12 Free slots

Combo Sequence

1) As soon as you Mana Drain into Dream Halls, play Conflux and tutor for:
{B} Yawgmoth's Will
{G} Research & Development
{U} Pact of Negation
{W} Conflux
{R} Cruel Ultimatum

2) Cast Yawgmoth's will pitching Cruel Ultimatum

3) Cast Research & Development, pitching Conflux, Move Conflux, Research & Development, and 2 other pitchable cards from your sideboard to your deck.

4) Cast Conflux from the graveyard pitching Pact of Negation from your hand, tutor for conflux, research & development and 2 other pitchable cards.

5 till infinity) Cast Research, Casts Conflux, Cast Research, Cast Conflux... etc..

6) Cast Research for Tendrils of Agony, Conflux, and 2 pitchable cards

7) Cast Conflux for Tendrils and a pitchable card

8) Cast Tendrils of Agony

Pact of Negation is there to protect your combo. Gifts and Fact or Fiction give you 2 free confluxes under Yawgmoth's will. The cards thrown in your graveyard can be played by pitching the ones you got in your hand after resolving Yawgmoth's Will.

I'm thinking of replacing Cruel Ultimatum with Stand/Deliver. It serves as the {W} card to tutor and pitches for blue. Deliver gives me an extra card to bounce with, which I can play before resolving Dream Halls.


Sadly, this deck was butchered by the rules change that changed the functionality of wish-cards. Cards Removed From Game could not be returned with Wishes or Research//Development, on which this deck relied heavily. In fact, it put half the combo in the sideboard and changed the maindeck combo cards to 2 Conflux, 1 Cruel ultimatum (that needed to be replaced for maindeck bounce) and a Research and Development. Sadly, you can't abuse Yawgmoth's Will RFG-clause with Research // Development anymore.

If the deck was still unslain by the rules change, I could have reduced it to 1 Conflux and 1 Research and Development with just 4 Dream Halls in the deck. That is how this deck should be built.

[Sims]

Yeah, not really getting why suddenly Dream Halls is a deck again becuase they printed a new version of a card the deck already had access to in Time Warp, Time Stretch, Temporal Manipulation, and Capture of Jingzhou.

[bruizar]

Yeah, not really getting why suddenly Dream Halls is a deck again becuase they printed a new version of a card the deck already had access to in Time Warp, Time Stretch, Temporal Manipulation, and Capture of Jingzhou.

Yep, Conflux into Nicol Bolas + Time Stretch allows you to ramp up and pop Nicol Bolas' ultimate, taking care of entire hand+entire board, should your opponent find it funny to land Ensnaring Bridge before you can go off. Otherwise Timestretch + Progenitus does the same as Caleb's deck but at the cost of -2 slots. Time Stretch is pretty dead without Dream Halls, and Temporal Mastery isn't always dead without Dream Halls, but realistically, you have to be on your third turn for Mastery to be good. That means if I am drawing Mastery in my opener, first or second turn, I'm just as fucked, but I run 3 masteries instead of 1 time stretch.

Or you could just, not run any of this and just use beacon+false cure. I'm not even sure if Conflux is needed at all.

[nedleeds]

CFB probably wouldn't make much from selling a few extra Time Stretches. I'm sure there is an edict out to their writers / semi-pro's to get that card moving.

[bruizar]

CFB probably wouldn't make much from selling a few extra Time Stretches. I'm sure there is an edict out to their writers / semi-pro's to get that card moving.


http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSRDsZkMFvA8nFEjnQOsggW9fEE3M6MCOjWT76gzqKl7f_BVZU7zkZKsEJF

So much more pimp tho! If it were 9 mana, I'd make a Grozoth list with Dream Halls. That would be so awesome.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I think you guys are reading too much into the conspiracy theory stuff. He writes Magic articles for income so I'm assuming he tries to write articles people want to read. Mastery just came out and people are intrigued by it and want it to be good. It actually makes sense in his deck and the deck wouldn't be completely terrible if RUG wasn't a deck, which is a point he readily concedes. The title is presumptuous but that's not anything new as far as Magic deck articles are concerned and no one can argue Caleb doesn't know his shit when it come to Legacy. The deck certainly doesn't break Mastery but at least it tries. I doubt SCG writers are all sitting in a smoke filled room with the owners demanding they turn out articles on specific cards to drive the price up. In the grand scheme of things SCG really doesn't give a shit about the price of Temporal Mastery because whatever price it's at they have no problem buying it for less than that and selling it for more. If they drive the price up it still costs them more to restock when they sell out. It's not like they can call WotC and be like, "Please send us 50 more Temporal Masteries, we sold out."

[SpikeyMikey]

I think you guys are reading too much into the conspiracy theory stuff. He writes Magic articles for income so I'm assuming he tries to write articles people want to read. Mastery just came out and people are intrigued by it and want it to be good. It actually makes sense in his deck and the deck wouldn't be completely terrible if RUG wasn't a deck, which is a point he readily concedes. The title is presumptuous but that's not anything new as far as Magic deck articles are concerned and no one can argue Caleb doesn't know his shit when it come to Legacy. The deck certainly doesn't break Mastery but at least it tries. I doubt SCG writers are all sitting in a smoke filled room with the owners demanding they turn out articles on specific cards to drive the price up. In the grand scheme of things SCG really doesn't give a shit about the price of Temporal Mastery because whatever price it's at they have no problem buying it for less than that and selling it for more. If they drive the price up it still costs them more to restock when they sell out. It's not like they can call WotC and be like, "Please send us 50 more Temporal Masteries, we sold out."

Well said sir.

[JDK]

Dream Halls is a deck?

:eyebrow: