Best place to discuss vintage?

[John Cox]

Hey I don't know if this is the best place to post this but I wasn't sure where else to do so. I'm looking for a vintage forum for mtg. I've tried to set up an account on The Mana Drain but can't seem to pull it off (The account never gets activated). Is there a European forum or is MTG salvation worth looking into? Any help is appreciated.
Thanks,
John.

[lordofthepit]

Hey I don't know if this is the best place to post this but I wasn't sure where else to do so. I'm looking for a vintage forum for mtg. I've tried to set up an account on The Mana Drain but can't seem to pull it off (The account never gets activated). Is there a European forum or is MTG salvation worth looking into? Any help is appreciated.
Thanks,
John.

I had a problem with TMD, but BrassMan saw it and took care of it on this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22115-Registering-on-The-Mana-Drain

Unfortunately, your other source that I'm aware of is MTGSalvation.

[xfxf]

More pressure on The Source admins to have a subforum here. Hear us hear us! :laugh:

[mrjumbo03]

I had the same problem, and even though Brassman set up an account for me wherein I could log in, I couldn't change anything about my profile and also couldn't post replies on threads.

[socialite]

Hey I don't know if this is the best place to post this but I wasn't sure where else to do so. I'm looking for a vintage forum for mtg. I've tried to set up an account on The Mana Drain but can't seem to pull it off (The account never gets activated). Is there a European forum or is MTG salvation worth looking into? Any help is appreciated.
Thanks,
John.

You won't be able to register if you are using a Gmail address. TMD is owned by SCG and the forum software is archaic. In an effort to stem the tide of spam bot accounts the powers that be sought to allow only non Gmail email addresses as they are free to setup and frequently used by spammers.

Truth be told the majority of discussion on TMD blows and the noise to signal ratio is off the charts. The best discussion often stemmed from article discussions; due to SCG's Facebook commenting section this frequently no longer happens via TMD. It's unfortunate really as the site used to be great. I really appreciate Andy, Dave, and Nick but the majority of the mod staff are horrendous. I'd like to open a Vintage forum or see a sub forum opened here, at least that way things could be better organized/updated software/moderators who give a shit, put their egos away, and stop over moderating.

My own opinions aside TMD is still a fine resource for old primers/deck development. This (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37514.0) is also fantastic place to start for people new to the format.

[John Cox]

You won't be able to register if you are using a Gmail address. TMD is owned by SCG and the forum software is archaic. In an effort to stem the tide of spam bot accounts the powers that be sought to allow only non Gmail email addresses as they are free to setup and frequently used by spammers.

I have an e-mail through my web site I've been trying with, the account gets accepted and needs to be approved (by zherbus I assume because the courtesy e-mail is from him) but before that happens the account is deleted. I'm wondering if he's like me with my WordPress blog and just deletes everything that comes in because of the amount of spam.

[socialite]

I have an e-mail through my web site I've been trying with, the account gets accepted and needs to be approved (by zherbus I assume because the courtesy e-mail is from him) but before that happens the account is deleted. I'm wondering if he's like me with my WordPress blog and just deletes everything that comes in because of the amount of spam.

Not sure. I would try making another email account from Yahoo etc and try again. AFAIK Zherbus no longer controls any aspect of the site.

[Richard Cheese]

Over tea and crumpets at the country club of course!

*polishes monocle*

[socialite]

Over tea and crumpets at the country club of course!

*polishes monocle*

:tongue:

[Solaran_X]

There are clearly a lot of Vintage players on this board. We need to unite and demand our own subforum! The Source represents 2/3rds of the Eternal formats...this discrimination must end! We must rise up!

[Richard Cheese]

There are clearly a lot of Vintage players on this board. We need to unite and demand our own subforum! The Source represents 2/3rds of the Eternal formats...this discrimination must end! We must rise up!

"Rise up"

How pedestrian.

[nedleeds]

Or just delete the modern forum since that format is as dead as Donna Summer ...

[socialite]

We are the two thirds percent? :laugh:

[Seems Good]

Over tea and crumpets at the country club of course!

*polishes monocle*

Lol @ Dicky Chee

In for my +1 to add a subforum.

[aahz]

Did someone say Vintage?

So how about that Dredge deck winning BOM6?

[nedleeds]

With no dread returns no less ...

[socialite]

Did someone say Vintage?

So how about that Dredge deck winning BOM6?

Lists? I'd be curious to see if people were running a lot of Jailer as most of the Euro Dredge lists have been boarding excellent answers to that card for months. If that's the case then I'm not really surprised.

[(nameless one)]

If we have Modern here, why not Vintage?

[socialite]

If we have Modern here, why not Vintage?

Haters gonna hate and as far as I can tell the very cordial staff here does not want to step on the toes of a site that has relegated itself into irrelevance.

[aahz]

Lists? I'd be curious to see if people were running a lot of Jailer as most of the Euro Dredge lists have been boarding excellent answers to that card for months. If that's the case then I'm not really surprised.


Name : Erik Hegeman

25 CREATURES:
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Lingot Chewer

19 AUTRE SORTS:
2 Darkblast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Serum Powder
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Cabal therapy
4 Leyline of the Void

16 TERRAINS :
4 Bazaar of Bagdad
4 Petrified Field
4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise

SIDEBOARD :
3 Whispmare
4 Unmask
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim

[socialite]

A lot of outs to Cage in a sanctioned meta seems good so do the Unmask in the board. Overall I think that's an interesting take and a tight list for what I would expect to see at an event like BOM.

[Koby]

Oh crap. I don't want to fight against this type of Dredge this weekend at GP Anahiem's side events. Fuck life.

In other stories, Nihil Spellbomb is now maindeck.

[aahz]

Oh crap. I don't want to fight against this type of Dredge this weekend at GP Anahiem's side events. Fuck life.

In other stories, Nihil Spellbomb is now maindeck.
Good move. I've been maindecking Spellbomb for a while and never looked back.

[HokusSchmokus]

Erik (Brot_ohne_Kruste on here) was playing almost the same list as both Julian Hecker and Richard Webels Top8ed Eternal Weekend Mol with.
Their playgroup stopped using Dread Returns for Vintage a long time ago. For Legacy, too, btw, those are the guys that brought us both the EU version of LEDless and now the "Quadlaser"list post Looting, with 12 Lands, and every card a 4-off.

[B.C.]

Truth be told the majority of discussion on TMD blows and the noise to signal ratio is off the charts. The best discussion often stemmed from article discussions; due to SCG's Facebook commenting section this frequently no longer happens via TMD. It's unfortunate really as the site used to be great. I really appreciate Andy, Dave, and Nick but the majority of the mod staff are horrendous. I'd like to open a Vintage forum or see a sub forum opened here, at least that way things could be better organized/updated software/moderators who give a shit, put their egos away, and stop over moderating.

I'm a full member at TMD, and this is unfortunately very close to the truth. I support any site that could facilitate active Vintage discussion.

[Solaran_X]

We need a Vintage subforum on this page.

[Koby]

In line with discussion - what type of decks would you expect for a Vintage sanctioned event as a GP side event? I'm guessing that there will be a lot of RUG Delvers and GW Haterator in the mix, along with Dredge. very little to non-Workshop and a few Blue decks ala Oath.

How would you prepare (your deck selection/list) for a metagame filled with possible budget Vintage decks?

[Solaran_X]

In line with discussion - what type of decks would you expect for a Vintage sanctioned event as a GP side event? I'm guessing that there will be a lot of RUG Delvers and GW Haterator in the mix, along with Dredge. very little to non-Workshop and a few Blue decks ala Oath.

How would you prepare (your deck selection/list) for a metagame filled with possible budget Vintage decks?
Since most side events are single elimination, you want a deck with a high game 1 win percentage (Dredge or Fast Oath) or a deck that forces your opponent to play your way (Null Rod/Stony Silence and Cage-based decks).

Workshops are rather common in side events I've played in or watched, since they sort of fall under the category of making your opponent play your way.

I would say to prepare your sideboard for Dredge and MUD, which sort of corners you into something with red and green splashed (or main colors) so you can support Ingot Chewers and Ancient Grudges.

I also think you will find that the side events aren't exactly budget decks. Most, if not all, of the players will be Powered.

[Koby]

If i'm expecting powered decks, I would run Slaverless. Otherwise, I would play Bant. I'm powered up so that is not a choke point for me. The question is which is a better EV against the expected field.

[Solaran_X]

I'd plan on running Slaver(less) then, since you will likely see more Powered opponents than unPowered ones in a side event. I could end up being wrong, but at the GPs where I've seen side events (Chicago, Columbus, and Providence - no events fired at Indianapolis) most of the players (6/8 or better) were running Power.

[xfxf]

By looking at the above discussion, we need a subforum here :)

[socialite]

If i'm expecting powered decks, I would run Slaverless. Otherwise, I would play Bant. I'm powered up so that is not a choke point for me. The question is which is a better EV against the expected field.

I would run Bant, it's a lot stronger against an unknown field than Slaver. TBH the most recent Slaver lists are not that great if you were to run Blue you would be far better off running a more consistent draw engine – Gush, AK, Confidant. The only real thing Slaver has going for it is Goblin Welder and I’m not sure how well positioned he is in the current meta. Most people are off of Blightsteel in the main, running lots of creature removal, and one of the biggest functions has been lost as most Fish builds run Stony Silence over Null Rod. Side events can bring out ringers but they also bring out a lot of randoms playing unpowered Jank which in turn makes Goblin Welder much weaker. I'd imagine Workshops would be at an all time low due to the cost restrictions of running no proxy and Dredge at a higher percentage of the field due to it being very cheap to build.

[John Cox]

New tanget (but hey, its my thread :tongue: ) I'm looking at building either maniac doomsday or demon oath. Anyone have any suggestions what the better deck is to cut my teeth on?

[Viridia]

I don't think you should build maniac Doomsday in this meta, Demon Oath is awesome tho :)

[John Cox]

Yeah that was my thinking, mental misstep on Ancestral sucks. I have all the cards for doomsday though but not oath so I thought I would consider it.

[socialite]

It really depends on your meta, play Doomsday if it is predominantly a Blue control based meta and Oath if it is a more creature centric one. That being said I'm not sure why you are worried about Mental Misstep on Ancestral as there are plenty of piles that win and do not include Ancestral Recall. I'd be more worried about the main deck Bolts and STP people are running.

[nedleeds]

In line with discussion - what type of decks would you expect for a Vintage sanctioned event as a GP side event? I'm guessing that there will be a lot of RUG Delvers and GW Haterator in the mix, along with Dredge. very little to non-Workshop and a few Blue decks ala Oath.

How would you prepare (your deck selection/list) for a metagame filled with possible budget Vintage decks?

Virtue's Ruin / Pyroclasm / Infest ... assuming you are running drains or something. Be able to remove Stony Silence if it's a problem. If dredge decks are content to just attack with tokens without haste run 4 x Tabernacles.

Worse is powered up hate bears. Because they can actually do stuff on the play.

[nedleeds]

New tanget (but hey, its my thread :tongue: ) I'm looking at building either maniac doomsday or demon oath. Anyone have any suggestions what the better deck is to cut my teeth on?

I'd run Thoughtlash Maniac over Doomsday at a GP, the entry fee and prize is nothing so you might as well win with some flair. With the full set of misteps. Keep the whole thing nearly mono blue.

[John Cox]

It really depends on your meta, play Doomsday if it is predominantly a Blue control based meta and Oath if it is a more creature centric one. That being said I'm not sure why you are worried about Mental Misstep on Ancestral as there are plenty of piles that win and do not include Ancestral Recall. I'd be more worried about the main deck Bolts and STP people are running.

I'm not too worried about bolt/doomblade/dismember/etc you can build Y will into the pile easily enough, but yeah STP is a problem. Demon Oath suffers from the same problem of splash hate with grave hate wreaking havoc on the time walk/ key-vault.
For doomsday the piles that win without ancestral all require certain cards in hand or on the table before you go off, which I've always found to feel situational. But I can use tinker in doomsday which can make it not too terrible against fishy decks.

[nedleeds]

Maybe switch to Shared Fate instead of Lab Maniac?

[socialite]

I'm not too worried about bolt/doomblade/dismember/etc you can build Y will into the pile easily enough, but yeah STP is a problem. Demon Oath suffers from the same problem of splash hate with grave hate wreaking havoc on the time walk/ key-vault.
For doomsday the piles that win without ancestral all require certain cards in hand or on the table before you go off, which I've always found to feel situational. But I can use tinker in doomsday which can make it not too terrible against fishy decks.

I'm not sure how Yawgmoth's Will prevents you from getting blown out by removal/bounce on Manic in response to x draw spell - you can setup protection piles but those are even more "situational" then Gush/Probe piles.

[Humphrey]

Vintage belongs more to Legacy than Modern

[Koby]

Virtue's Ruin / Pyroclasm / Infest ... assuming you are running drains or something. Be able to remove Stony Silence if it's a problem. If dredge decks are content to just attack with tokens without haste run 4 x Tabernacles.

Worse is powered up hate bears. Because they can actually do stuff on the play.

My current SB is thus:

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Oops-Did-I-Win-When-boarding-Into-GY-Hate?
1 Pyroclasm
1 Doomblade
2 Ingot Chewer
2 REB/Pyro
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Gorilla Shaman/flex slot
1 Mountain
1 Surgical Extraction

I can deal with Stony Silence/Null Rod - Myr Battleball does that just fine and still beats face against removal/Jace. I think I'll probably add Sower of Temptation against the possible Grizzly Oath decks that might pop up.

[CranialX]

We have this site in the Philippines, where we discuss vintage and legacy.
You guys might want to check it out.

http://thesphere.freeforums.org/index.php?sid=5c835b223b2748fa004d29d3150c6cc0

[John Cox]

I'm not sure how Yawgmoth's Will prevents you from getting blown out by removal/bounce on Manic in response to x draw spell - you can setup protection piles but those are even more "situational" then Gush/Probe piles.

Yeah, your 100% on that. I've had no sleep in the past two days, pardon my fogginess.

[Koby]

Yeah, your 100% on that. I've had no sleep in the past two days, pardon my fogginess.

Ahh. D3 syndrome. Lack of sleep for the last 10 days. :laugh:

[nedleeds]

My current SB is thus:

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Oops-Did-I-Win-When-boarding-Into-GY-Hate?
1 Pyroclasm
1 Doomblade
2 Ingot Chewer
2 REB/Pyro
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Gorilla Shaman/flex slot
1 Mountain
1 Surgical Extraction

I can deal with Stony Silence/Null Rod - Myr Battleball does that just fine and still beats face against removal/Jace. I think I'll probably add Sower of Temptation against the possible Grizzly Oath decks that might pop up.

Plain old Lightning Bolt isn't bad against both Hatebears and Manshops. It kills their Lodestone or fries all hate bears ever printed. Hell ... Flame Slash ... it kills Karn and all the bears.

Who here is going to be at Gencon to battle for Vintages ?

[Koby]

Bolt is already maindeck :D

EDIT: Should provide some context I suppose...
//NAME: Slaverless Slaver
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Brainstorm
2 Mana Drain
2 Mental Misstep
2 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Force of Will
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Flusterstorm

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Goblin Welder
1 Myr Battlesphere

1 Flex

1 Library of Alexandria
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Rack And Ruin - Only good in Proxy enviroment with Shops present
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Helm of Obedience
SB: 1 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Doom Blade

Flex could be Mox Monkey, another Forbidden Alchemy, or a 3rd Misstep. I would run more Mana Drain but a) don't own another b) too many counters as is.

[Solaran_X]

Why do they still call it Slaver...when it doesn't run Slaver? Slaver decks without Slaver is like a big "juicy" burger made without meat...seems wrong.

[Koby]

Because if Slaver was good enough to run, it would be run. But it's woefully not good in Vintage right now and the rest of the deck is still good. Hence, Slaverless Slaver.

[nedleeds]

Play 1 Korean Stronghold Mana Leak. It's pretty sweet on the play, since you can play it off any mox also helps versus men.

[emidln]

The only matchup you actually care about with Doomsday is workshops. You actually play more disruption than any other deck in the format. Beating fish, dredge, combo mirrors, and big blue are all very easy.

[socialite]

The only matchup you actually care about with Doomsday is workshops. You actually play more disruption than any other deck in the format. Beating fish, dredge, combo mirrors, and big blue are all very easy.

Spoken like a true Combo player. :laugh:

[nedleeds]

The only matchup you actually care about with Doomsday is workshops. You actually play more disruption than any other deck in the format. Beating fish, dredge, combo mirrors, and big blue are all very easy.

ORLY????

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/fut/18.jpg

[emidln]

ORLY????

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/fut/18.jpg

I'm pretty sure I've never lost to that card in Vintage. I'm vaguely aware that it gets played, but usually by decks that have a super hard time getting it to resolve. That said, unless you sandbag it forever (by which point the combo deck has drawn a million cards and easily counters it), it's vulnerable to the same Echoing Truths and Teferi's Realms that the deck already brings in.

Doomsday is a deck that is absolutely designed to crush blue decks. It plays fewer dead cards than other blue decks thanks to GushBond and a lack of use for most artifact mana. Instead of drawing lands and off-color moxen, the deck is drawing more disruption spells. It's about equally effective as a Gush Storm deck and a Doomsday deck, and can actually kill you with two different cards in Doomsday piles. Drawing more disruption, presenting a fast clock, and largely ignoring null-rod and chalice effects form a pretty solid plan of beating fish-style decks as well.

Incidentally, the same things that make you absolutely dominant in the blue matchup work to destroy you in the workshop matchup. You not only are low on lands, but you don't have the artifact mana to help offset the spheres your opponent has packed. You typically don't even have enough artifacts to try to get a quick Tinker off (not that Tinker is even that effective against workshops these days, but it's a good measure better than just conceding). Boarding strategies in this matchup focus on giving you tools like Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, more lands, and nearly full complements of cards like Hurkyls Recall, Steel Sabotage, and Teferi's Realm in an effort to reverse the maindeck's often horrendous game 1.

[nedleeds]

Sure you can bounce just about everything, that's like a religious person using the 'because God made it that way' argument. WG(b/u) hate men seems like it would have fine game against Doomsday. Everything in the deck is disruption with built in damage ... and it has it's own Spheres. Spheres with power and toughness that can't be Duressed.

[Solaran_X]

Sure you can bounce just about everything, that's like a religious person using the 'because God made it that way' argument. WG(b/u) hate men seems like it would have fine game against Doomsday. Everything in the deck is disruption with built in damage ... and it has it's own Spheres. Spheres with power and toughness that can't be Duressed.
Only one Sphere at a time like that though. But it's a damned fine Sphere.

[nedleeds]

Only one Sphere at a time like that though.

ORLY?

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/le/15.jpg

"Die Zeit ist noch nicht reif."

[Solaran_X]

I always forget about Glowrider. Thalia is always in front of my mind.

[nedleeds]

The rider is OK if you get Hierarch turn one, but in most non shop matches I'd want Mindcensor. But I think most hate bear decks crush shops, burn the remains, and scatter the ashes anyway so who cares.

It's Oath that's tough to beat with Bears that Hate.

[Julian23]

When I was playing GW Hatebears in Vintage, going for budget prizes, I used to crush each and every Workshop, Dredge and "control" deck with 9 Strip Mines in the Main. Only Storm Combo remained pretty bad. Never encountered Oath, though.

[nedleeds]

When I was playing GW Hatebears in Vintage, going for budget prizes, I used to crush each and every Workshop, Dredge and "control" deck with 9 Strip Mines in the Main. Only Storm Combo remained pretty bad. Never encountered Oath, though.

I tried Hate Bears II: Dark Territory a few weeks back. I think it's a pretty sweet deck, you get all the hate of normal hate bears but you get Dark Confidant and 4 x Yixlid Jailers in the board.

[Nihil Credo]

I only realised in this very moment that "hate bears" is a play on "Care Bears".

[John Cox]

I didn't get that till now either. I thought it was because they were hate grizzly bears . But yeah, that makes sense.

[kingsey]

What are your guys thoughts on demon oath vs Gg emrakul oath?

I've been playing both and can't seem to decide on 1 vs the other.

[nedleeds]

Playing Emrakul means you can play Show and Tell also ... which means cage isn't a game stopper.

Maybe Griselbrand is better than either. :confused:

[Solaran_X]

I'd play Fast Oath in a meta that is heavy on Workshop decks, since the only spell you have to cast is Oath once - makes their Spheres and such less effective.

I'd play Demon Oath in pretty much any other meta (assuming you mean Rune-Scarred Demon Oath that chains Time Walk and Noxious Revival-into-Time Walk for three consecutive turns).

[Koby]

Flex could be Mox Monkey, another Forbidden Alchemy, or a 3rd Misstep. I would run more Mana Drain but a) don't own another b) too many counters as is.

Ended up going with Fact or Fiction, and won the side event. It played no part in any victory.
https://p.twimg.com/At4YYw1CQAAD4EU.jpg:large

*Vintage muscle flexed*

[John Cox]

Grats man

[nedleeds]

Ended up going with Fact or Fiction, and won the side event. It played no part in any victory.
https://p.twimg.com/At4YYw1CQAAD4EU.jpg:large

*Vintage muscle flexed*

Good job! Happy you got 8 together. I'll be at the Atlanta Legacy GP and Origins getting warmed up for the main event. Gencon.

Bring your weapon of choice to GP Atlanta ... if you scrub out there will be blood!