Show and Tell ban - including a poll

[Einherjer]

Ive just been thinking about opening a poll about the Show and Tell Discussion we are having in the B/R-Thread!

[Shimster]

Sneak and Tell is totally fair in the current metagame. There a many blue based archetypes, which hold the deck in check.

btw: Banning Griselbrand, orly? :D

[DragoFireheart]

I don't think we have hit the threshold quite yet. Grislebrand sure as hell put the deck near it though.

The option to ban Grislebrand is silly though. WotC would never ban it over Show and Tell.

[rxavage]

This is ridiculous.

[Pippin]

I voted for banning Griselbrand. In a format where Y. Bargain is banned there should be no upgraded version available.

[Aggro_zombies]

I can see SnT getting the ax at some point in the future, but not yet. It needs its Vengevine moment first.

[millerd33]

I voted for banning Griselbrand. In a format where Y. Bargain is banned there should be no upgraded version available.

I don't think he is an upgraded version of Yawgmoth's Bargain. Having to draw them 7 life at a time makes it much less powerful.

[sdematt]

True, but you also still get a regular draw step, and a 7/7 flying Lifelinker.

I mean, the only way Grisel COULD be better would be Pay 1 life: draw 1 card.

---

All in all, the deck is very good, but suffers from many of the same problems of these Show and Tell decks: you have one piece and not the other, and you're boned if you don't. You're pretty much all-in on one game plan.

Show and Tell becomes super risky against anything running Knight of the Reliquary, Vendilion Clique becomes ridiculous, Spell Pierce is amazing, Pithing Needle for Sneak Attack so you have a turn to interact, etc.

I agree, Ban neither, since there hasn't been a moment where it's unstoppable.

-Matt

[jrw1985]

Don't ban anything. Play Magic and tune your deck for the metagame instead.

[Einherjer]

That's excactly the result Id have loved to see! I was already worried about this criers in the B/R thread.

Thanks guys for letting me know, that the majority of the Legacy-community are still real players!

Greetings

[xfxf]

Keep calm and play Magic.

[sdematt]

However, I think if the DCI had to ban a card next banning, Show and Tell would be in their sights. They won't, but I'm saying it's getting the most attention now.

-Matt

[Deviruchi]

I voted to keep format as it is. It's to early to judge S&T+GB as a "Tier1 deck with everything far behind". We should wait for GP results, format changing strategies and then decide.

Adapt and win :)

[honestabe]

Ah yes, the old "OMG, THERE'S A NEW TIER 1 DECK WE NEED TO BAN" rant. I was wondering where all the Modern players got it from.

[Pippin]

That's excactly the result Id have loved to see! I was already worried about this criers in the B/R thread.

Thanks guys for letting me know, that the majority of the Legacy-community are still real players!

Greetings

We'll it was too early to open this kind of topic, but since it has eased your mind... I guess it was worth it?
Be prepared however for all-out shitstorm in next few months cause Griselbrand is that insane.

[I am the brainwasher]

...the majority of the Legacy-community are still real players!

And thank god this majority plays "real" decks most of the time.
It is no secret that this is one of the most hated decks for a (good) reason.
I'll be honest, from the bottom of my heart, I fucking hate Show and Tell and all that other non-interactive riff-raff with it.

I can't help myself but this is exactly what appears everytime someone casts a S&T in front of me
http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/SPESHUL+OFFICER+DOOFY+REPORTIN+_3c33227f1bc1945995e8eb0291dac8e4.png


One of the most explicit descriptions of the deck is propably this:
"I don’t like this deck. When I beat it, I feel like my opponent didn’t do anything, and when I lose to it I feel cheated. "

[TheElvishPiper]

Don't ban anything. Play Magic and tune your deck for the metagame instead.

I dont know, this seems like a really daunting task that most legacy players can't seem to grasp. It definitely seems good on paper though! :wink:

[HAVE HEART]

Personal preference would be to just have Griselbrand banned because I just picked up some Show and Tell (my vote), but I do not think that option is realistically on the table for the DCI. This means that Show and Tell is almost guaranteed to be getting banned in about 20 days.

[Koby]

I echo with others that while Griselbrand has pushed the envelope closer into the Danger Zone, it's not quite there yet to become a problem.

No one knows what other Vengevine-esque cards will be printed next set that might break the format in half again. I would probably like to see Griselbrand banned before Show & Tell tho, since there are no fair/fun applications for him.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Where is the option, "Get the fuck out of here with your shitty ban poll, the deck has been doing well for less than a month. Why don't we wait a month and see what happens instead of all the same people opening their mouths too early and making themselves look like idiots for the umpteenth time."

I would vote for that in a second.

[birds of paradise2]

Is sneakattack doing better then Maverick or RUG? Probably not. So why should something in the deck be banned, and the dominating decks left alone?

Sneak attack got a new toy, everyone is exited to try it out and the rest is crying because they don't adapt and play answears to it.

In a month or two, there might be a few sneak attack around, but most players have dropped it and played something else, meanwhile maverick and rug will continue to dominate.

[luckme10]

Isn't this the same guy that started the Temporal Mastery preban poll?

You only get one of these a year buddy, and you've already used it up. Ban this thread.

[from Cairo]

I voted no change. I think Sneak & Show is strong, but able to be kept in check if archetypes adapt.

I'm sure Show and Tell and Griselbrand are both being watched. I'm sure the powers that be would prefer to ban Show and Tell as it's an older card that has the potential to interact with any OP'd (non-Planeswalker) permanent Wizards may want to print in the future, see Flash and Survival of the Fittest. But as others have pointed out having an unrestricted Bargain in Legacy is definitively going to maintain builders interests, Griselbrand is showing up in many achetypes already - Dredge, Reanimator, the R/B Welder/Reanimator hybrid, which wasn't the case for Vengevine or Protean Hulk prior to their respective 'enablers' were banned.

[Einherjer]

You may be misunderstanding me. I made this poll as a "dont-ban-this-card-poll" Not the other way. I wouldn't ever want this card to get banned.

[dontbiteitholmes]

You may be misunderstanding me. I made this poll as a "dont-ban-this-card-poll" Not the other way. I wouldn't ever want this card to get banned.

No one is seriously talking about banning Show and Tell yet. It's just the same handful of complainers who cry every time they can't beat the flavor of the month. By making this poll you are lending more credibility to their slanted view of Legacy. Obviously most logical people would rather wait and see what happens over the next month or two before forming an opinion.

[JDK]

Don't get your pants wet, just because people are crying (for now...).

[Lejay]

I hope Griselbrand (or at least show and tell because I know wizards tend to not acknowledge making mistakes) will be banned soon and that they won't wait too long for it. The problem with it is that except if you play humility or your own griselbrand there is no real answer. Either you deal with the 7/7 lifelink flying body and your opponent will just win by drawing billions of cards, or you have something to prevent the ability and the 7/7 body will win the game on itself.

Sneak show being at the same time the best current deck and the dumbest deck ever in legacy also doesn't help arguing against the ban.

People in the SCG opens have been quite slow (as often) to start playing it, but sneak show has been performing very well in Europe the last weeks despite people generally trying to hate the best deck rather than play it. As we've seen with survival, maverick and rug, american people prefer to play the best deck rather than adapt to it. So I predict tons of sneak show decks in future SCG opens, and no real answer to it. And tuning a new deck to completely beat sneak show is probably a recipe for loosing against about everything else.

EDIT : I'm not a whiner. Last time I talked about a ban here, it was for flash.

[cuthbertthecat]

And thank god this majority plays "real" decks most of the time.
It is no secret that this is one of the most hated decks for a (good) reason.
I'll be honest, from the bottom of my heart, I fucking hate Show and Tell and all that other non-interactive riff-raff with it.

I can't help myself but this is exactly what appears everytime someone casts a S&T in front of me
http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/SPESHUL+OFFICER+DOOFY+REPORTIN+_3c33227f1bc1945995e8eb0291dac8e4.png


One of the most explicit descriptions of the deck is propably this:
"I don’t like this deck. When I beat it, I feel like my opponent didn’t do anything, and when I lose to it I feel cheated. "

That picture is pretty accurate, and the same reason I would love to see show and tell banned. An overpowered deck with very little play to it? Whooooooooooooooooooo.

[JDK]

Please stop confusing Show and Tell (a card) with Sneak Show (a deck - one of several with Show and Tell).

[Koby]

Please stop confusing Show and Tell (a card) with Sneak Show (a deck - one of several with Show and Tell).

It can be argued that Show & Tell -> Dream Halls/Hive Mind is even more difficult to answer than Show & Tell -> Griselbrand. However, that comes at the expense of consistency when you need to find your kill spells. Regardless, Show & Tell is a powerful effect.

[I am the brainwasher]

It's just the same handful of complainers who cry every time they can't beat the flavor of the month.

Since you started to generalize here, I'd kinda like to point out that at least my post did not include any statement about how I see the card in terms of how "banworthy" it is.
I do agree upon the fact that the numbers and results of decks which abuse S&T are quite relative, but this doesn't prevent me from disliking the card and the stupidity that comes with it.
On the other hand, I do see a trend that the existence of the card sculpts a meta-game that doesn't seem healthy allover. While saying that, I am indeed very well aware that different factors are creating that trend.
This is no whining or a complain about how badly this must be fixed, but I can see the card leaving Legacy for reasons that are pretty easy to justify outside of results in pure numbers and those doesn't seem too illogical.
Although I am not explicitly advertising a ban of it (right now), I won't cry a single tear about it if it happens.

[JDK]

It can be argued that Show & Tell -> Dream Halls/Hive Mind is even more difficult to answer than Show & Tell -> Griselbrand. However, that comes at the expense of consistency when you need to find your kill spells. Regardless, Show & Tell is a powerful effect.

Of course Dream Halls/Hive Mind should instantly win you the game and is therefor more difficult to answer. If it weren't, no one would even play these decks and just go for Sneak Show. The downside, however, is the need of the combo parts and this is what makes the Sneak Show deck so good compared to it's siblings. Consistency, as you said. So I don't see the point to even bring this up. :/

[Michael Keller]

I could care less if the card gets banned, but it will at some point. It doesn't surprise me though that the deck's primary facilitators are both from Urza's Saga.

[Julian23]

I could care less if the card gets banned, but it will at some point. It doesn't surprise me though that the deck's primary facilitators are both from Urza's Saga.

Time to start working on Fluctuator then, I guess?

[Sims]

Time to start working on Fluctuator then, I guess?

Challenge accepted.

[Koby]

Challenge accepted.

Does this mean that Chains of Mephistopheles is worth playing (finally)?

EDIT: wow I actually spelled it right on my first try. *thumbs up*

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

I understand the card is fair in a competitive metagame, and that solid deckbuilding as well as a good reading of the field will help a player overcome Show and Tell based decks*. For big-time spikes, there is no reason to ban this card, and a lot of people enjoy playing decks that revolve around the card. But I would love to see it banned because LaPille V2.1 couldn't beat it with Great Sable Stag.

I hate these kind of decks. Combo decks that drop the stupid fatties Wizards keeps printing in every set, have Force of Will backup (because the best card at cheating big things into play is not Green, Red, or even Black...it's fucking Blue), and are often difficult to meaningfully interact with. And worst of all, they don't even take the skill or have the flash that Storm does. If I get blown out by SI, at least I get a cool show, not fucking being annihilated by the fucking flying spaghetti monster because I don't have counters/O-Ring in hand/my own stupid fatty.

I'd love to see Wizards not print stupid fat that makes cheating into play so good. Bargain on a stick? Are you kidding? Not happening though, as that's how they get their skrilla. Speaking of goings on in Never-Fucking-Happening-Land, I'd also love to see S&T banned and color-shifted to a red card like so:

Me Play Dude NOW!

2RR-Sorcery (or even 1RR might work)

Each player chooses a permanent from their hand and puts it into play.

Fits a lot better in the color pie, gives red some much needed love, and allows those who like Sneak Show type decks to still play them, though Blue and all of its goodies (Force, BStorm) aren't as easily fit in.

*As an aside, I really don't even like the "Dude, metagame broheim", response when dealing with Legacy. I'd love to, it's just that not everyone can slap down the 1K+ that it might take to switch to whatever is effective in a changed meta. It's not about pet decks as much as it is about prices being totally off the wall and not conducive to easily shifting with the meta.

[xfxf]

I voted for "No ban" from a purely meta-balance point of view but I also agree with a lot of the points Jamaican Zombie Legend makes.

[csy]

unban mystical tutor.


there you go, food for trolls.

[Julian23]

unban Vampiric tutor.


there you go, food for trolls.

Fixed that for you. You don't know anything about the art that is trolling :cool:

[Tao]

The SnT discussion only distracts from the real offender, the overpowered Brainstorm. Banning Brainstorm would significantly weaken unfair Combos as well as RUG Delver without killing them.

[JACO]

Ah yes, the old "OMG, THERE'S A NEW TIER 1 DECK WE NEED TO BAN" rant. I was wondering where all the Modern players got it from.

Yeah, I thought there was a moratorium on assholes starting new threads every week asking for something to be banned.

[csy]

moderators need to crack the ban whip and thread lock implements out. this is almost as bad as a post on the diablo gen forums about error 37.

[Humphrey]

ban Brainstorm

[csy]

if they banned brainstorm Id cash out and only play vintage.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I really hate whoever decided those choices were good. It's along the lines of:

Choose one:
I'm going to vote for Mitt Romney.

I love terrorism and will therefore vote for the Muslim who wasn't born in America.

[honestabe]

http://memegenerator.net/instance/21340244

[baghdadbob]

I like show and tell as an archetype. I think it is fair and can be answered if it has to be. There seems to be a lot of decks in the meta that are all built in response to meta problems. In my opinion this helps create a healthy format like the one we are in now. The only problem I can perceive is guys playing u/w/x delver decks. Get some creativity dawg, and consider sterilization. :tongue:

P.S. Also hivemind-esque decks are much more broken than show and tell decks.

[majikal]

P.S. Also hivemind-esque decks are much more broken than show and tell decks.
Am I actually reading this or have I lost my fucking mind? Hivemind is a Show and Tell deck.

[Humphrey]

if they banned brainstorm Id cash out and only play vintage.

how to cash out and play vintage dude? You almost need the same stuff, lol
Also I dont know many places where you can play vintage.

Seriously, Brainstorm is the most broken card in the format. There is a reason why Ancestrall Recall is banned, you know?

[Sloshthedark]

brainstorm... blah blah bla:rolleyes:

banning it kills combo decks, and all the fun.... just play modern

[Nihil Credo]

beeeeep - metaposting to magic-posting ratio exceeding safety limits - beeeeep - activating safety locks - beeeeep