[Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays – The Legacy Doomsday Device Primer

[Julian23]

For the last 7 months, Stephen Menendian has been toiling away in his Magic laboratory on a concoction that is certain to shake up Legacy. In this article, Stephen reinvents Doomsday in Legacy, just as he has in Vintage. Focused determination and meticulous refinement have produced a decklist and a deck approach that will blow your mind.

"If your mind isn‟t blown, then you are probably a little bit confused or perhaps even skeptical. That‟s because no one in Legacy has seen a dedicated list like this before. Much like when European explorers beached on North America or when NASA astronauts landed on the moon: you are seeing something totally different from all that has come before. I will explain all in this article."

Now this is a sentence that will go down in Legacy's history. One way or the other. I'm actually looking forward to seeing whether this deck will actually perform. It kind of reminds me of Cephalid Breakfast, as its combo is vulnerable to both creature-removal and graveyard-hate.

I will give it a try despite how actually fragile it looks at first glance. There's just too much appeal in winning with Doomsday, no storm and a "I-win" trigger. On top of that, the way it plays out post Doomsday is one of the most elegant plays I've seen....althought Legacy has way to often proven to be a brutal format that loves to slaughter "cool" plays.

Anyone else read the article?

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2787

[Julian23]

Can we get the Mod-staff to make a final decision on how much of "premium" Content (SCG, Eternal Central etc.) is ok to be revealed on here? I'd love to share at the least the decklist. What I don't want to do is discuss for merits of paying for articles time and again.

[Jander78]

Can we get the Mod-staff to make a final decision on how much of "premium" Content (SCG, Eternal Central etc.) is ok to be revealed on here? I'd love to share at the least the decklist. What I don't want to do is discuss for merits of paying for articles time and again.
It is NOT ok to post the decklist from an article without the author's consent. Posting just the decklist would lead to complete derailment of the discussion. Answers to questions about the decklist will have been addressed in the article it's derived from. Complaints about premium content is considered spam, and will be moderated as such.

[socialite]

Just picked it up, I'm still not sold on a creature based win condition with Oh So Many Ways to remove it; hopefully Steve addresses these concerns in the article (with 33 pages I hope so).

Edit: Ok this list looks pretty gross.

[Julian23]

Basically, you're trying to come out on top of this:

Draw Step + SDTs in play + Brainstorms in hand + (live) Counterspells versus # of (live) removal spells.

With 4 SDTs, I can see this actually happening more often than it first seems. What I'm actually more worried about is the omnipresence of Surgical Extraction + the up and coming resurgence of Counterbalance.

[socialite]

With 4 SDTs, I can see this actually happening more often than it first seems. What I'm actually more worried about is the omnipresence of Surgical Extraction + the up and coming resurgence of Counterbalance.

Agree and agree. With creature removal being so ubiquitous in the format I’m not sure one could “get there” with a list like this especially considering it’s now semi dependence on the graveyard as well. He does adress some issues I had with scenario walk throughs, even so the lack of a contingency plan (Tendrils?) worries me.

[Blitzbold]

Just bought it, but will only manage to read it as early as tomorrow - it's time for BBQ + EDH now. ;-)

Really looking forward to this, as my willingness to play 'fair' decks in Legacy is strongly decreasing at the moment.

[Parcher]

I actually have played this deck, albiet several months ago. While I don't want to go into much detail, respecting the author's wallet, I will add a few observations from my experience.

First, the decks that have multiple ways to remove Maniac, usually also have a good deal of pressure. Zoo doesn't currently exist, but both RUG and U/R Delver can put out a quick clock, and have multiple ways to kill Maniac. They also have loads of cheap, situational countermagic. In addition, Surgical Extraction is played in a lot of decks now, and is often included in the two aforementioned. Which not only can hit your win, but can ruin your piles.

Running some number of Counterbalance can easily take care of this, without the need for both ways to stop their counters(except Force), or the need for multiple draws in response to their removal. You'll need to re-think your Doomsday piles to include a 1-casting cost in the correct order, but that's not very difficult. The added bonus is that if you just land a Counterbalance early, neither of those decks can actually beat it in conjunction with the tremendous amounts of deck manipulation this deck has. Obviously, it also deals with Extraction. I can't say the correct number main, or SB, as my list was a little different, and it can slow you down a bit. But it should be a consideration, owing to this deck's vulnerability to GY hate, and removal, and it wasn't mentioned. It was actually far worse then, considering Tribal decks(Merfolk) were still around.

Another card for consideration, especially in the face of faster decks or time considerations, would be Spoils of the Vault. It clears your entire pile for one mana(and the needed life), and puts what you want directly in hand. Countermagic in most cases. But Spoils can grab Maniac itself in the face of GY hate.

I have a few other questions and comments, but they are more directly related to inclusions, instead of exclusions, and I'll leave them to the author's discretion pending a deck release.

Besides what seemed to me a bit of redundancy, I thought it was an excellent article, and hope that some on-board discussion comes from it.

[DragoFireheart]

What are some other good ways to protect the Laboratory Maniac?

Also, how about adding some Miracle cards? Any room for Temporal Mastery?

[Julian23]

When it comes to protecting Maniac, I strongly believe just having more ways to trigger his ability is the right way. Unlike situational cards like that Instant thats grants protection for Phyrexian mana, spells like SDT and Brainstorm synergize very well with the anything else the deck tries to do. Counterbalance looks super interesting. I wonder how many people you could blow out game1 by playing Top and CB on Turn 1 & 2, then killing them on turn3 with Doomsday, haha.

What I'm most concerned about is graveyard hate. Maybe we can find a way to hardcast Maniac more easily post DD?

[JACO]

What are some other good ways to protect the Laboratory Maniac?

Also, how about adding some Miracle cards? Any room for Temporal Mastery?Steve addresses both of these issues in the article.


What I'm most concerned about is graveyard hate. Maybe we can find a way to hardcast Maniac more easily post DD?Well the thing is, if they have a graveyard hate card, they essentially have one less card in hand that does something relevant, so theoretically you should have either more time to hard cast Maniac if need be, or you would potentially have another protection spell in your hand that you didn't have to use on an actual threat from the opponent, since they might have something like Relic of Progenitus or Surgical Extraction.

[Technics]

On premium content:

I believe we should be allowed to post threads promoting it, but not be allowed to discuss. It's just too hard without quoting from an article, and when half the people commenting on it have not read it, it leads to too many "covered in the article" replys.

On the article:

Not the most innovative idea in the world (already working on the idea myself when i read it) but it's very well written, and I enjoy Stephen's articles because he is very through. He leaves very few idea's uncovered. I think the list he posted in there has some work still, but it very close to something that could be a great deck one day. The only thing different from my list is he has a different way of getting LM into play.

[Final Fortune]

If graveyard hate is an issue for Laboratory Maniac I think you can use other enablers or win conditions to circumvent the problem, the Emakrul and Brain Freeze plans are easily SBed and Show&Tell is kind of a counter spell for maniac with Helm of Awakening being a pretty decent accelerant for some of the possible combo chains.

I don't think this is really that "jaw dropping" tho', as far as combo-control goes Sneak Attack just seems straight up better right now.

[Waikiki]

Altho im tempted by the fact the article is about doomsday. Still im waiting for Steve's last claims on his last article to become true... Not seeing any temporal mastery yet.

[CorpT]

Altho im tempted by the fact the article is about doomsday. Still im waiting for Steve's last claims on his last article to become true... Not seeing any temporal mastery yet.

That's mostly my thoughts. The last one was hyped and, while a good read, didn't bear fruit.

[Machahiko]

I'm actually a bit interested in buying this, but 5$ is too much at this very moment. ;) Do eternal-central premium content become free after a period of time or can one buy them for cheaper later on? Also, the free excerpt kinda doesn't tell anything about the article.

[Technics]

I'm actually a bit interested in buying this, but 5$ is too much at this very moment. ;) Do eternal-central premium content become free after a period of time or can one buy them for cheaper later on? Also, the free excerpt kinda doesn't tell anything about the article.

5 bucks is expensive for an article I agree. But 33 pages of Stephen's well written stuff brings me a longer "pleasure" that eating a 5 dollar hamburger etc. Skip going out to lunch one time and it's paid for itself. I will agree, maybe not the most acurate or best decklist, but he brings up many valid points that I believe help facilitate discussion to makeing a better deck.

[Machahiko]

5 bucks is expensive for an article I agree. But 33 pages of Stephen's well written stuff brings me a longer "pleasure" that eating a 5 dollar hamburger etc. Skip going out to lunch one time and it's paid for itself. I will agree, maybe not the most acurate or best decklist, but he brings up many valid points that I believe help facilitate discussion to makeing a better deck.

Well, I have 20 euros now which I have to spend on living for two weeks, using one fourth of my food money would kind of make me starve. ;) I'm used to SCG Premium content and I'm kind of afraid that this would be just another SCG Premium article, selling for 5 dollars which is pretty much I think. Well, maybe I'll have to buy this once I get some more money - which I will most likely need also for obtaining the cards for the deck. :rolleyes:

[Deviruchi]

Stephen is playing on SCG Open (already 3-0) so maybe everyone will see his decklist if it is good enough for top 16.

[Di]

Apparently this needs to be reiterated for the SECOND TIME in this thread: do NOT whine about premium content.

If you have a problem with it, leave the thread. We now treat such complaints as spam, as seen through the recent update to our site rules:

5.6: Discussion Threads on Premium Articles. Linking to premium articles hosted on other sites is acceptable, provided the article is related to Legacy and the author is willing to discuss their ideas on this site. Complaints about premium content are spam and will be moderated as such.

Authors have every right to link their premium content as long as it's relevant to the site. Discussion is entirely open to anyone who wishes to join, and if that means purchasing it is a prerequisite to active participation then so be it. If you don't want to pay for the article, then that is your loss. There's plenty of discussion elsewhere, so don't bog this discussion down if you don't feel like paying for it.

[KevinTrudeau]

Shifting DDay away from LED-based combo to FoW-based combo (makes the deck feel like a Legacy port of a Vintage list, which is pretty cool) is certainly pretty interesting. Initially, I feel like it's just worse than the three Burning Wish LED Doomsday list lejay tuned (bless his heart) and two other popular forms of Fow-based combo (Spiral Tide, Sneak and Show), although I feel like I could be proven wrong; in comparison with the latter, the deck does have less dead cards, greater digging power due to Sensei's Divining Top, less susceptibility to Wasteland, and runs an equal quantity of countermagic and is a full turn faster than the former, but certainly seems more fragile than either (esp. the former) and definitely less explosive than the latter. Not the worst $5 I've ever spent.

[Gheizen64]

Stephen is running this deck, now live on SCG stream. He' 4-0 or 3-1 right now, don't know. Smooth plays for what i've seen.

[Kage]

I believe he's 5-0 now. The deck wins by a Brainstorm+FoW/Pact+Mental Note+Lab Man+Unearth pile which requires to pass (and an SDT in play or draw spell in hand).

[Julian23]

To get this straight, what you're looking for is to cast and win with Doomsday on turn3 by building a pile like this:

Gitaxian Probe
Mental Note
x (gets binned)
Maniac (gets binned)
Unearth

Post Doomsday it wins with just UB in the pool. After Unearthing Maniac, you pop a SDT or Probe ftw. In case you've got UUB post Doomsday, you can also win with Brainstorm or Ponder. Of course, you will need to draw into you pile in the first place. So you basically need a way to draw into the pile (+ optional draw to win right away) plus UB mana.

[kicks_422]

So his main win pile is not only susceptible to countermagic, but also to creature removal and graveyard removal?

[KevinTrudeau]

So his main win pile is not only susceptible to countermagic, but also to creature removal and graveyard removal?

Yes, the first point (susceptibility to countermagic) a tad greater due to the majority of piles (an estimation of mine with limited testing, though it's certainly not an overwhelming majority) being pass-the-turn ones; keep in mind, the deck's playing twelve (eleven pre-final turn) counterspells, seven (six pre-final turn) of them free, and you can certainly craft piles that, say, include Pact and/or intend on passing two or more post-DD turns to play around potential countermagic. Grave hate and removal can all be played around without an extreme amount of difficulty, as well. It's also not just his main win pile, it's his only win pile.

[Julian23]

That's what it says in the opening post. But thanks for brining it up again. As mentioned, I'm least worried about creature removal, as a single SDT can counter it. The amount of countermagic this deck runs is absurd, so there's a pretty good chance of winning counterwars.

I didn't get to test this deck a lot. Time/Experience will tell whether the amount of countermagic can outweight vulnerability to opposing countermagic. Playing around Graveyard hate requires two more colorless mana post Doomsday which seems doable. I like Parcher's approach of adding Counterbalance. Maybe something like -2 Misdirection -2 Divert might do.

[groupcelebration]

So his main win pile is not only susceptible to countermagic, but also to creature removal and graveyard removal?

But thats the thing with Doomsday... You can make your pile whatever it needs to be for you to win.

While there might be a default pile that wins through your opponent not interacting with you at all, you have the option of changing it to make sure you win through whatever they might have.

[kicks_422]

Yes, in LED builds that have multiple avenues of victory (e.g. Tendrils of Agony straight up, with a Chain of Vapor in the pile, double Doomsday, etc). But to have this as his only win pile feels fragile to me.

But hey, what do I know. It's his deck.

[Namida]

I hadn't purchased the article because I had to cancel my credit card recently, but I feel like I should commend the author for attempting to write what I can only assume was an extensive text. To take a stab at inventing a deck that incorporates Doomsday and write a primer for a deck with Doomsday in it takes a lot of work--the established Legacy Doomsday list is just as complex and would take just as much effort to write a primer for if anyone had the time/balls to do it (I tried).

[Smmenen]

There is no single pile for this deck either.

You hard cast the Maniac if you even get a whiff that they may have graveyard hate.


There are dozens of piles, although there are 3 or 4 you use most of the time. There is not really a "standard pile," since it varies so much. I cover the various DDay piles in my article.

My favorite pile is the Dark Confidant pile. It's by far the coolest pile.

I won my round one match, game 3, when my opponent had Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Cannonist and Tormods Crypt in play. This deck is very resilient. Bolts and Plows are an obvious reason this deck banks on Misd etc

Note: The one thing that I updated last night that is different from the list in the article is that I added Spellskites to the sideboard. They were amazing. I'll see of EC can send out an updated version this week.

[jam3sbob]

^ Tournament report? Free maybe? :smile:

[dahcmai]

Not a bad read. Definitely worth a 5 spot.


I like and dislike at the same time. It's a trade off from the older versions. A better manabase by far and a simpler stack at the cost of a slower, but more versatile version. It does dodge hate decently that is normally directed at these types of decks, but I do wonder if people can deal with it since the normal dead cards become useful all of a sudden.


BTW, how did he do in the tournament?

[Waikiki]

18 points out of 9 rounds 6-3

[royal]

I'm really interested in the deck and I'm definitely going to buy the article cause its awesome that someone writes such extensive and detailed articles about Legacy.
But the one thing I'm a bit afraid of is the recent rise of Counterbalance decks. Hows the matchup against CB? Is it a good idea to run such a Combo deck with that many CB decks around?

[Lejay]

It's easy to make 33 pages when you say the same thing 2 or 3 times.

[citanul]

And include half page pictures of that same thing 10 times.
I don't feel like I learned anything from the article. The idea is interesting but I dont see how this deck is better than other DD lists. It provides a different protection package in counters and wins differently but it's still the same.

Also, he mentions it's a one card combo, two when he includes Dark Ritual to cast Doomsday. What about the two cards he needs to draw into the pile and another to win? One can be replaced by a pass the turn but that's still a 3 card combo!
2 mana piles also seems wrong. Every pile needs 2 draws, those don't cost mana? SDT allows you to cast it another turn and Probe replaces it with 2 life but saying 2 draw, 2 mana seems weird.

Could it become a good deck? Sure, it might. But it doesn't seem to be better than the current DD lists when played properly. The only benefit it has is the manabase which I haven't had much issues with in DD anyway.

[Smmenen]

The main advantage of Doomsday over other Legacy combo decks -- whether they be Show and Tell variants or what not -- is that it is a one card combo to initiate the combo process: all you have to do is resolve Doomsday. Show and Tell decks require you to put other cards in hand. Same with High Tide. Because of that advantage, Dday decks can be much more streamlined and efficient, and can have alot more counter-protection.

That's why I believe Dday can be not only the top Combo deck in the format, but one of the best decks in the format period. This Dday deck has almost none of the weaknesses of the Tendrils Dday decks, while being much easier to play, but exposes itself, very slightly, to other forms of hate. I've built this deck to mitigate those.

I'd rather play a heavy UB deck with lots of great blue countermagic and an impervious mana base than a 4c Dday deck with a sketchy mana base and no countermagic.

This deck takes its cue and its inspiration from my Vintage Doomsday deck, but it took me months upon months to develop and tune this deck from all of the various permutations I tried. I think the final product is more than worth it, and I hope you agree.

[emidln]

Smmenen, you're looking at this the wrong way. It's not 2c vs 4c or countermagic vs chants/discard, it's 0 Black Lotus vs 4 Black Lotus. Why are you playing a deck with less than 4 Black Lotus?

[Smmenen]

I could say the same thing about Force of Will. I just think my deck is better, as well, both against the field and in a head to head matchup against Tendrils Doomsday. I don't think the latter is even close.

[emidln]

Better in head to head matchups isn't even close to relevant. DDFT played against a competent pilot by just about any other storm deck (TES, ANT, Spiral Tide) is a blowout in the other storm deck's favor since most of them can easily answer chant effects (eot Ad Naus or Turnabout+counterspell (in case DDFT has Petal) being the two most common methods).

Designing a deck focused on turning Doomsday into a bad Tinker removes a primary strength of the deck in that it plays very few dead cards. Drawing cards like Mental Note, Unearth, and Laboratory Maniac is usually very awkward if you aren't already winning. (I understand that you can Brainstorm them away and sometimes if you have the Doomsday as well, you don't need to stack them in your pile.) Further, you HAVE TO play a lot of protection because you're attempting a combo that is creature based and either expensive (since you have no LEDs to pay for it) or prone to graveyard removal (an effort to be cheap without sacrificing your hand to LED).

The reason why DDFT (indeed almost all of the various Doomsday Tendrils brews) play only 6-8 protection is that they auto win a large percentage of their matches where opponents simply cannot interact. Chant and Silence are carefully selected for this metagame involving a large amount of situational countermagic. Aggro decks often only have hatebears (which are themselves easily removed) to attempt interaction. Blue decks don't play enough hard counters to beat the second, sometimes even the first chant. Mid Range decks (e.g. Nic Fit, Aggro Loam) can't actually interact with Doomsday, go from the Tendrils deck. In short, the only cards that actually matter to the DDFT player are cards that literally say "counter target spell" and permanents that are trivial to bounce with Chain of Vapor or Karakas stacked.

Manabase stabillity generated by being two colors is questionable. The dominant build of DDFT plays 18 lands with 3 basics via 8 fetches providing access to primary colors (Wish is typically only cast once, if ever, off lands). You further have Lotus Petals to fix colors (and help vs taxing countermagic) as well as LEDs which can be used to cast your business spells (Wishes and Doomsdays). You won't often read reports about Doomsday players losing to their manabase (and I read a lot of them).

I've played countermagic in Legacy Doomsday off and on (you can look for the pre-Mystical ban for some lists) and one thing I've noted time and again is that, short of immediately losing the game to an opponent's "kill you" spell, there is no spell worth pitching my Brainstorm to counter. There are very few that make me want to pitch my Ponder. This is because I can already play through just about anything by stacking Chain of Vapor (more recently, Karakas, or Wish->solution). I firmly believe the card makes combo decks interested in either hand size or card quality (which is almost all of them) significantly worse than a different solution. I have no problem with cards like Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, Divert, Daze, Pact of Negation, or Thoughtseize, but Force of Will and Misdirection are too costly unless you're in a situation where opponents are often killing you on turn 1 (which doesn't happen here).

[Smmenen]

I'm really interested in the deck and I'm definitely going to buy the article cause its awesome that someone writes such extensive and detailed articles about Legacy.
But the one thing I'm a bit afraid of is the recent rise of Counterbalance decks. Hows the matchup against CB? Is it a good idea to run such a Combo deck with that many CB decks around?

Thats why I have Devastation Tide in the sideboard. You can put it at the top of your DDay stack.

[Smmenen]

I will give it a try despite how actually fragile it looks at first glance. There's just too much appeal in winning with Doomsday, no storm and a "I-win" trigger. On top of that, the way it plays out post Doomsday is one of the most elegant plays I've seen....althought Legacy has way to often proven to be a brutal format that loves to slaughter "cool" plays.

Anyone else read the article?

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2787

This deck is ridiculously good.

The idea for this deck started, obviously, when I created the broken Maniac Doomsday deck in Vintage. I was skeptical of how I might port my Vintage deck to Legacy, but started working hard at it last November.

I quickly realized there were so many different ways you could build it. For a while, I ran 1 Emrakul and 1 Shelldock Isle maindeck. Then I tried a version that was a mix of Show and Tell/Doomsday. Then I put Show and Tell in the sideboard. I even tried aggro-control versions. One of the key lessons I learned is that the best ultimate strategy was to win with Maniac or not at all. Maniac was and is surprisingly resilient. As I say in the article, all you need is another draw trigger to win the game. That's why this deck makes such amazing use of Top.

After literally months of testing and played in small, local tournaments where I knew people wouldn't leak my deck, I decided I would focus entirely on this deck and to develop it.

But I didn't want to publish it until it was perfect or nearly so. Lots of my teammates have weighed in on my list, and endured hours and hours of testing -- often getting smashed.

Likewise, I suffered getting smashed over and over again by various people and various archetypes until I reached a configuration that was not only consistently winning, but was truly amazing.

The deck is truly bonkers. It can win out of nowhere and is very, very difficult to stop. My deck is also a deck that will appeal to top players because it offers so many opportunities to both tactically and strategically out play your opponents.

I was very disappointed in my final performance in the SCG event, because this deck is utterly redunkulous and all of my losses were due to -- frankly -- the lack of tournament magic I currently play. I flubbed up one game 3 dday pile, and in another game 3 I made a huge tactical mistake before a counterwar.

People who read this primer and practice with this deck will have an excellent chance of winning tournaments wherever they go.

[Telperion]

How much power does this deck lose as people become more familiar with it? I feel this is a serious consideration with any combo deck, but this was especially highlighted in your feature match against maverick where he allowed you to be reactive to the swords to plowshares rather than forcing a block first. Do you feel like you received a lot of wins from your rogue status yesterday?

[Smmenen]

How much power does this deck lose as people become more familiar with it? I feel this is a serious consideration with any combo deck, but this was especially highlighted in your feature match against maverick where he allowed you to be reactive to the swords to plowshares rather than forcing a block first. Do you feel like you received a lot of wins from your rogue status yesterday?

My video feature match was a blast (I feel sorry for that guy :p ).

It's absolutely true that I tricked that guy whom I knew would try to Plow my Maniac on my endstep, and then win in response.

However, what they missed is that I actually messed up by fetching the wrong 4th land. At the end of the game I had a Spell Pierce in hand for his second plow, but I messed up the mana with my last fetch so I couldn't play it at the end there. Had I gotten an Underground Sea or an Island there, then I win on the spot by playing the cantrip that I put into the pile to win in that situation.

Having flubbed up the mana, I knew I'd have to win by Jedi tricks/his ignorance, and it worked.

Game 2 I just smashed him quickly.

The reason I have utter confidence in this deck even now that people know about it is because of my testing. My opponents were very well versed in the ins and outs of my deck, and yet I was still crushing.

The truth is that this deck just isn't that vulnerable. If you read the primer all the way through you'll pretty much understand.

For every Plow in your opponent's hand, all you need is a Top in play. Graveyard hate is insanely easy to play around.

The main weakness of this deck isn't creature removal or GY hate: it's damage.

[Smmenen]

For reference http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/320234415 @ 6:35:30

[dsck]

When I was watching I felt like you would have lost against competent pilot. G1 that mindtrick wouldnt have worked and G2 he could have upkeep enlightened tutored up choke, drawn it and played it.

[Rekk]

so what does this deck do against an ooze, an extirpate
or even a thought scour with back up

[Smmenen]

When I was watching I felt like you would have lost against competent pilot. G1 that mindtrick wouldnt have worked and G2 he could have upkeep enlightened tutored up choke, drawn it and played it.

Wrong on both counts:

In game 1, I messed up.

My hand was Spell Pierce and Force of Will when I resolved Dday. I knew his hand. He had two plows, and Teeg, and irrellevant stuff. I played Polluted Delta and fetched a second swamp when I meant to fetch an Island.

Had I fetched Island, watch the progression. He plays Teeg leaving just Hierarch and ONE LAND untapped..

I untap and draw Brainstorm drawing Pact and putting the Force that was in my hand (and now useless thanks to Teeg) into my library. I Brainstorm into Mental Note. I play Mental Note, binning Maniac and Force. I play Unearth. I activate top and try to win the game.

He responds with Swords. I play Spell Pierce. He taps his last mana and plays another swords. I Pact.

I am the one who messed up. I miscalculated my mana needs on the turn I played Doomsday and that's why I had to Jedi mind trick him into plowing my maniac to win.

Game 2: I actually expected him to Enlighten Tutor for Cannonist or Choke and was surprised when he didn't. I initially put Force ontop of my library so I could activate Top and draw it in case he did.

Unfortunately, the commentators didn't really understand what I was doing.

What the commenators failed to mention was that in game 1 I ended the game with a Spell Pierce in hand and an untapped Swamp in play. When my opponent went for Plow, he couldn't defeat my Spell Pierce and my Pact.

Choke is actually pretty weak against my deck in general. If I expect it, I just fetch out two swamps and Top all day until I Doomsday.

What I think most people don't understand is that the Doomsday is not actually a Tinker.

First of all, your goal is to win the same turn you cast Dday. The rule, as I talk about in the article is two mana, two draws.

Secondly, the Doomsday is not just to tutor the combo, but to tutor for protection. The main Dday pile is Brainstorm into Pact, which you put into your hand for worthless or superflous cards in your hand.

In other words, the Doomsday is a multi-card tutor: it finds the combo AND protection in this deck.

[Smmenen]

so what does this deck do against an ooze, an extirpate
or even a thought scour with back up

I talk about all those in my article. Without getting into too much detail, if your opponent has an Ooze, you Mental note into the Maniac instead of Unearth, and just need either a Ritual or two more lands to win that turn. Against Extirpate, which you see with Probe, you create a stack with 2 Brainstorms and hardcast the Maniac. If they Extirpate the Doomsday (the only card in your yard), they shuffle your library, so just put two Brainstorms or a Brainstorm and a top there so you have high odds of manipulating your library the correct way.

I beat Tormod's Crypts, Oozes, and Leylines all the time in testing. It's really easy.

[Telperion]

To preface, I have just read the primer but have yet to do any testing: I can see your justification for the essential cards, but I'm still kind of shocked at the final decklist: the lack of street wraith (I understand the blue count argument), maindeck bounce, business finders (intuition, burning wish ...expensive/mana base arguments) etc. I am also kind of interested at what other backup plans in the sideboard you found ineffective beside the one mentioned in the article. I feel like the deck could explore painter/stone or helm/leyline. I am also suspicious of the dark confidant plan. I have found it to be useful against counter-top decks while playing ANT, but the pitch counters and doomsdays hurt so much in this build. Furthermore it seems dangerous to extend the game if you can't rely on proactive discard forcing through multiple mini tendrils.

Edit: Just testing, my RUG opponent thoughtscoured me post-doomsday. I ended up drawing and hardcasting maniac and cycling unearth ftw... Can't say the deck isn't fun.

The deck needs a careful study pile, having a stranded maniac in your hand is the worst.

[Smmenen]

Read the pile in the primer of what to do with Lab Maniac in hand. Just Brainstorm in the pile. That way you don't need a Careful Study in the deck, which I considered before.

BTW, if anyone has questions like that please tweet me, or better, tweet @ManyInsanePlays because we will be answering them on our podcast, which we will be taping tomorrow night.

[Telperion]

Just tested against RUG delver about 30 pre-board games. Most games, I get to 4 or 5 lands and resolve a doomsday facing lethal. The delver player almost always has a bolt, so if I don't have top on the table I just lose. Then there are the games where you cantrip and shuffle for 5 turns and just don't see a doomsday or can't amass 3 black mana and win on the same turn. This deck seems to have traded the explosiveness and non-interactiveness of Ad Nauseum for the ability to dodge resolved hate bears. I don't see how the raw power and counter suite of Sneak and Tell isn't just better.

[wolfstorm]

Just tested against RUG delver about 30 pre-board games. Most games, I get to 4 or 5 lands and resolve a doomsday facing lethal. The delver player almost always has a bolt, so if I don't have top on the table I just lose. Then there are the games where you cantrip and shuffle for 5 turns and just don't see a doomsday or can't amass 3 black mana and win on the same turn. This deck seems to have traded the explosiveness and non-interactiveness of Ad Nauseum for the ability to dodge resolved hate bears. I don't see how the raw power and counter suite of Sneak and Tell isn't just better.

Seem's a lot like what keeps happening to me during play testing, feels like the list really wants burning wish.

[catmint]

Bought the article and it is definitely worth the money.

However I was a bit dissapointed because after seeing the deck live in SCG my first though was, that you are hurt by all forms of disruption. Not only the usual discard, countermagic and ugly permanents (not all of them of course), also creature removal and GY hate has to be taken in account.

Now as shown the mechanic to tutor up protecion with Doomsday is very powerful and removal can be answered with more instant draw triggers. However I would be afraid of RUG and UWx sculpting their hands to something like this:

FoW, Swords, Spell Pierce, Blue card, Surgical Extraction,...

or RUG

FoW, Daze, Blue Card, Red elemental blast/Lightning bolt, Stifle, Surgical Extraction

Also Stifle can do a lot of work if you go for the "Fetch land" doomsday pile or if you want to use SD.top to draw a card.

I was hoping for a surprise like alternative win-condition or some special plan/piles to combat aggro control decks attacking from 3-4 different angles.

Without playing the deck I cannot see how it is better than sneak&show. Sure you have the absolute minimum of "dead cards" for a combo deck + more library manuplation avoiding "fuck-draws", but Sneak&Show can only be attacked by countermagic/discard and some deck specific/narrow choices and not the creature removal/GY hate EVERY deck is running.

[ramanujan]

Bought the article.

Love the deck and I love that you created it. You probably won't remember this, but I was the death long pilot at SCG power 9 Chicago who you watched lose to changster (Before he was well known). Coincidentally, that was the tourney that you were showing off Doomsday for the first time. You made top 8 and I think someone ate a piece of power after getting DQd.

Anyway,

I see the focus of the deck. The only deck I have ever seen with more focus was the Vintage Tendrils list you created which had a bazilian cantrips, including a draw 2 for B1 and two life. I mirror the sentiments of the above posters on burning wish.

Basically, I see an advantage of a more stable manabase and a smaller footprint for the combo as pluses. I see the absolute need to find a 4 of in your deck (Doomsday) as a negative.

I assume that you tested with burning wish and various ways of generating red mana. Could you provide a little detail, in terms of game experiences, on why it is better to have the 4 doomsday configuration instead of a 3 Doomsday, 2-4 Burning wish configurations? Something like, I accept that I will lose 13% more games because I cannot find Doomsday in exchange for winning many more because wasteland is not as much of an issue and I have more answers.

I cannot wait to test it and good luck at your next tournament.

[Smmenen]

Thanks all for the continued feedback.

I've actually done alot of testing with and against Sneak/Show, and I prefer this deck for a number of reasons.

The main reason is that it's a one card combo. Often I will just hardcast Doomsday on turn four with something like: Island, Swamp, Sea, Sea in play. That way you can protect it with Spell Pierce/Divert and Force/Misd.

Show and Tell requires you to assemble two cards in hand, which makes you vulnerable to discard and really needing to find both parts.

The second reason is that Karakas is everywhere. Unless you are playing a hyper fast combo version with 4 Griselbrand an a bunch of Tendrils, I think Show and Tell is actually a weaker metagame call right now.

The only Show and tell deck I'd play at the moment would be Hive Mind because you get to play 4 Pact of negation.

I think some of you who have reported testing feedback may need a little more practice with the deck, and need to read some parts of the primer more carefully.

In terms of pure goldfish speed, this deck is about a turn 3.3 or so deck. But one of the key skills I had to learn early was when to play Dday. Don't ever play Dday if you are going to pass the turn and get attacked to death. It's better to wait and Dday and win the same turn. It works because the reason you get within kill range is because you lose half your life. If you wait to Dday and win the same turn, you can suck up alot more damage pre-dday

I'm also very confused as to how this deck could ever lose to just a Lightning Bolt. The pile with Pact protects you from Bolt, as does any Top in play. Morever, you usually have Countermagic in hand like Misd or Divert or Spell Pierce to protect the maniac.

In general, you very rarely get resistance from resolving Dday. You should basically be saving your countermagic for the final turn of the game. I almost always end the game with countermagic in hand, as I did in the videoed feature match.

If you have more questions like that, send them to the @Manyinsaneplays podcast on twitter or email us at somanyinsaneplayspodcast@gmail.com, and we'll answer them tonight.

[door]

Hello. First of all let me thank Stephen Menendian for the great work he did developing the deck and writing the article. It is worth the money I payed. It is really well written and easy to understand. However, the article needs correction. Somewhere in the middle the author repeats again and again the same things about the 2 mana - 2 draw rule and describes the same piles several times. At seeing same things for over 3 times it starts annoying.
Sorry, I'm a cave man and I don't know how to write in twitter :tongue:
As to the deck itself, I carefully read the primer and understood every argument. A couple of qustions: all we need is dd to go off (and enough mana), so why not play personal tutor? Yes, it does not draw a card to help with the piles, but it is easily utilized as a pitch or brainstormed away. It will help to find postboard massacre and etc, and make sb more functional. Also we usually don't cast dd before t3, so there's enough time to get what we need with personal tutor.
Next, judging from the video, creature removal is a problem, despite what is said in the primer. There was an illustrative example when FoW was shut down with gaddock teeg. Having another disruption is a rare luck. Thalia will also cause problems. There's a lack of speed. Killing not earlier than t3 with a combo means the deck cannot be tier1. High tide has the most stable manabase, not much less counters than we have here, it's combo is not vulnarable to creature removal and still it is not enough to compete with tier1 decks. So either we need to have better luck than average or think on further upgrading either in speed, or in vulnerability. The maniac combo would be perfect to transformate into after sb, after they side out all their removal. But now I think there's still a lot of work to do. :really:
I can't agree that it's better than sneak'n show now. Yes, there are KoTRs and Karakas everywhere (but mostly in maverick), but creature removal is just everywhere (not mentioning gravehate. Yes, yes, we play around it, but it's very clunky, you know). There are so many angles to attack us. And opponents have a minimum of 3 turns to do it...
Honestly, I will try the deck at the local tournaments, but I'd choose to play Sneak Attack or TES, or dredge, or DDfT at the bigger events.
Thank you. Hope to see improvement soon. :smile:

[Smmenen]

Hello. First of all let me thank Stephen Menendian for the great work he did developing the deck and writing the article. It is worth the money I payed. It is really well written and easy to understand.


Thank you :)




Next, judging from the video, creature removal is a problem, despite what is said in the primer.


For the tenth time: I actually messed up: I had Spell Pierce in my hand, which I couldn't play because I fetched out a Swamp instead of an Island or a Sea.

Had I fetched out hte correct land the turn before, I'm fine.

Remember: I ONLY went off AFTER Probing his hand and seeing he had two plows. I knew I could beat both Plows, but I f****d up and fetched out the wrong land, nearly punting the game.




There was an illustrative example when FoW was shut down with gaddock teeg.


I think this just goes to show that people didn't really undertsand what was going on.

I probed him and KNEW he had Teeg. You couldn't hear me speaking, but I WANTED him to play teeg so I could Spell Pierce one of the Plows.

My plan was to Brainstorm and exchange the Force in hand for the Pact in my Library's Doomsday Pile. That's exactly what I did, except that I messed up the mana.

I needed UUUB for Brainstorm, Note, Spell Pierce, and Unearth. Instead, by fetching the second Swamp, I only had UUBB.

See?




Having another disruption is a rare luck.


Actually it's not. This deck has 3 Spell Pierce and 2 Divert and 2 misd and 4 Force for a reason: so that you end the game with double counterprotection. That's actually standard situation.

I playtested against Maverick endless and almost always end the game with at least one counterspell in hand and the other in my Dday pile.



Thalia will also cause problems.


Hence, maindeck Darkblast. Which doubles as Thalia removal and dredging the Maniac.




There's a lack of speed. Killing not earlier than t3 with a combo means the deck cannot be tier1.


The deck can win on turn two many ways. I will address this in the free supplement.

[Julian23]

In your article you state that Turn1 Doomsday "[...] will lose the game most of the time, although there are rare exceptions."

To be fair, in game1 I'd make that kind of play against almost every aggro deck in the format. This includes Zoo, Goblins, Elves, Affinity etc. Zoo might be tricky and require a Fetchland+Non-Fetchland in your opening hand. Game2 is a completly different kind of animal since you don't know what they might be boarding though.

Although, on second thought, doing so requires the use of at least 1 Gitaxian Probe when going for this (pass-the-turn-)pile. In addition the Turn1 Doomsday would have to be cast with a USea, since you can't crack your Fetchland on turn2 until after you've cast Mental Note. In the end, you lose 10+2+1=13 life. And you get blown out by Wasteland. Against Zoo you are going to need at least 1, very likely 2 FoW/Misdirection to protect the Maniac. Maybe even against Affinity or Goblins.

So I can see why you hardly ever want to cast Doomsday on turn1. Learning by writing a post. Guess it won't hurt to still post my thought process.

[door]

For the tenth time: I actually messed up: I had Spell Pierce in my hand, which I couldn't play because I fetched out a Swamp instead of an Island or a Sea.

No, I understood what was going on. What if you did not have spell pierce and have Misdirection? What if he had mana to pay for your spell pierce? It's too fragile, too situational. You were balancing on the edge of a knife, that's what was happening. I am comparing with silence effects in storm decks.

[Smmenen]

What if he didn't have a second swords? There are lots of scenarios.

in designing the deck, I tuned it to beat scenarios just like that. As i said, I playtested against Maverick relentlessly, and it's one of the worst matchups because it has Thalia and plows and has huge monster.

Incidentally, I went 3-0 against maverick in the Open. That should tell you how good my deck is at beating multiple plows. In round one, I had to beat double plow, tormod's crypt, and cannonist.

[emidln]

From testing, it feels like multiple of one type of hate is pretty trivial to deal with. If they're only really going to plow you, you can crush them with proper planning. If they're just going to try to deal lots of damage, you can go off in a single turn with a pact for their burn spell. Where it started to fall down for me was requiring the second draw spell against decks that fight you on multiple angles (tempo thresh being the classic example where they have instant removal + infinite situational countermagic + damage. Needing 2 draws vs 1 from the ddft lists I'm used to placed me dead in the water in my small sample set (35 games so far).

[dahcmai]

I don't know why, I just still want a LED in there, even if it's only a singleton. I like the versatility for the stacks.

[John Cox]

Nice timing with the release of the article on this. What with today being D-Day.

[Smmenen]

The supplement to the primer, with additional tips and an updated sideboard is being sent out very soon to everyone who got the primer.

It's being added as an appendix to the primer for folks who haven't gotten it yet. FYI

[ThomasDowd]

so what happens when people fight over the doomsday? is there enough protection to punch through that?

Edit:have read the article and the update by the way.

[Smmenen]

Doomsday almost always resolves.

The deck uses the same disruption suite to protect Doomsday as it does to protect the combo, namely Spell Pierce & Divert, Force and Misdirection. So, if you want to play turn two or three Doomsday, it's usually Dark Ritual Doomsday with Divert/Spell Pierce protection. Then, if they don't fight the Dday, you have the same weapons in hand to protect and shield the remainder of your combo.

In the hundreds of games I've played, I can hardly remember a game where Doomsday was ever successfully countered. The reality is that Legacy decks just don't pack that much countermagic anymore (Delver decks run 3 Forces alot now), and those that do, use it to protect their own combos (like Sneak Show or Hive Mind).

In answer to the question about situational answers, that's one of the reasons I selected the protection suite I included. Cards like Divert, Spell Pierce, Misdirection, and Force answer not only cards like Plow and Bolt, but also Spell Pierce, Force, and other forms of countermagic. Divert is just as effective stopping a Surgical Extraction as it is a Plow, Bolt, or Force.

[Telperion]

Jammed the suggested decklist in a ~25 man tournament last night. Other than losing to U/R delver, the deck just felt armed to the teeth. After crushing other combo decks, I realized this is much more like I perceive a vintage deck to be. Step 1. Don't Die. Step 2. Resolve Tinker etc (dark rit --> doomsday in this case) and win on the back of one insane spell. The counter suite is really strong, you can usually handle 2-3 of your opponent's spells on the pivotal turn. I am still not sure how to handle delver, but I'm thinking it might be a match where you want to pass the turn after an early doomsday which seems unintuitive given the burn. You tend to not win against the decks with fast clocks/burn if you give them four turns.

[Smmenen]

That actually explains alot :)

That explains probably both why I like it so much and why it plays like that (being that I play alot of Vintage and designed it).

One of the things that is so unfair about this deck is that it feels like I'm playing a Vintage deck while everyone else is playing Legacy.

As for UR Delver, practice with it and you'll be winning soon. What you need to do is make sure they can't do roughly 6 points of damage after you Dday. You need to set it up so you can Divert the turn after you Dday, and you'll probably win.

[B.C.]

I read the article, and have been testing the deck in various matchups for the past couple days. It took me a while to get familiar with the DD piles, but after a while I pretty much knew what I was going for. I really really like the blue control package compared to the black discard package I have been playing in my DDFT build (primarily a 2 color build for the same reasons mentioned by Smennen), and certainly a lot more than the white disruption package a lot of other DDFT builds use. I think it makes the deck sneaky good against a variety of disruption.

The only things I really DON'T like about this build compared to DDFT is the fact that the majority of the time you pass the turn after playing DD before winning. This is something I never do playing DDFT. It just makes me nervous. I have also stalled out a few times more than I like if I just can't find a DD. This is where having multiple Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish can make DDFT perhaps a little less likely to just sit there filtering cards in vain.

Overall, I kind of like the deck. I think it's an original idea that has a lot of upside. I wouldn't be surprised to see both this and DDFT increase their tournament results in the near future. Nice one.

EDIT: Also, it seems like Shelldock/Emrakul in the board would be a great option for this build. It is unaffected by most of the hate that people would bring in to combat this deck. I assume you have thought about it. Why did you decide not to include it?

[gregtron]

I've been playing DDFT for a while now, and have found the Shelldock/Emmy pile to be very niche. It's sketchy against aggressive decks because they can potentially blow you out with damage when you pass the turn (assuming you have no Cloud of Faeries), and it's susceptible to Wasteland (even with CoF, you have to hope they activate Waste so you can cast it in response).

It is, however, a great way to not be totally destroyed by Counterbalance.

[Smmenen]

EDIT: Also, it seems like Shelldock/Emrakul in the board would be a great option for this build. It is unaffected by most of the hate that people would bring in to combat this deck. I assume you have thought about it. Why did you decide not to include it?

I discuss this for nearly a page in the primer.

I was all over the place with that combo, but summarize my findings and reasoning in the primer.

I decided that Devastation Tide would be my Counterbalance answer, should a Counterbalance sneak through.

[B.C.]

I've been playing DDFT for a while now, and have found the Shelldock/Emmy pile to be very niche.

I'm the same. I cut it completely from my DDFT build, even from the sideboard.



I discuss this for nearly a page in the primer.

Ok, I went back and found this section. I must have glossed over it the first time through. I agree with all the points you make. I just thought it may be worth diversifying in case people start running Extract or something. However, I agree that it's better to just solidify the primary strategy.

[Smmenen]

Honestly, one thing I've mulled over before for Vintage, and might consider in Legacy, is simply adding a second Maniac to the deck post-board. If you sideboard in a second Maniac, you will really catch an opponent off guard if they think they killed your only Maniac. It also gives you more chances of finding one to hard cast before playing Doomsday if you need to beat graveyard hate.

[xfxf]

I've seen the list (god bless the Internet) and to be honest it looks a lot of fun. There's something cosy about playing a handful of counters in your combo deck. If only this guy didn't try to hype up every idea he had as if it's the best, insanely broken, undiscovered gem out there... It's a good deck, yes. It's breaking Doomsday to a new level, no.

I would say the difference between an actual Doomsday list and the Lab. Maniac Doomsday is like the difference between TES and ANT. The latter is kind of the watered down version of the former, with less lines of play, more stable manabase and easier for the beginners.

[Darkness]

Playing in the Star City Games event with the deck. Stephen your thoughts on 2 personal tutors MD -2 ponders? Input would be helpful.

[Smmenen]

I would not. We answered all of your questions in our podcast: http://www.mtgcast.com/?p=25162

[thefringthing]

<3 So Many Insane Plays.

[sdematt]

Article bought (now you can buy food, Stephen!) and I'm just trying to slog through the 30 pages. Will let you know what I think.

-Matt

[ThomasDowd]

have been goldfishing, how often (a percentage would be nice, doesn't need to be accurate just a guess) do you make pass the turn piles? i find winning on the turn you cast doomsday to require a lot of things to go right.

[lavafrogg]

Article bought and read. I love the deck and will most likely switch my DDFT to the maniac win con but I have to ask: Why would you play this over faster combo decks. I understand the resiliency of the kill but a deck that can win turn 1/2 compared to a combo deck that can win 3/4 should be chosen as the better deck.

Dredge has boarding plans that include: win before the hate happens. Doomsday will rarely mise a turn one win and leave the opponent shuffling for the next round.

I just re-ready the addition to the primer and am going to test..

[xfxf]

Another question is, if you are looking for a resilient turn 3-4 combo deck why pick this up over High Tide since it has even a better manabase and a more flexible way to battle with hate in the form of Cunning Wish.

[citanul]

In the added section you mention how you resolve Doomsday.


First put your graveyard onto your library.


For people starting to learn Doomsday this is fine but the oracle text of Doomsday is the following:


Search your library and graveyard for five cards and exile the rest. Put the chosen cards on top of your library in any order. You lose half your life, rounded up.

Library and Graveyard need to stay seperated! This isn't that important but it is relevant for cards such as Aven Mindcensor. I'd advice to practice it correct so that the handling feels comfortable during a tournament.

[Fossil4182]

Article bought and read. I love the deck and will most likely switch my DDFT to the maniac win con but I have to ask: Why would you play this over faster combo decks. I understand the resiliency of the kill but a deck that can win turn 1/2 compared to a combo deck that can win 3/4 should be chosen as the better deck.

Dredge has boarding plans that include: win before the hate happens. Doomsday will rarely mise a turn one win and leave the opponent shuffling for the next round.

Its also the resiliency of the deck.

Belcher: the fastest and most consistent turn one combo deck in the format, but it primary weakness the deck is best classified as a glass cannon. It has no protection pre board and no effective way to recover if it is disrupted.

Storm Based Combo: Doomsday Device has a much more stable mana base, has an easier time fighting through permanent based hate, runs more cantrips allowing for better filtering, and runs an abundance of counter magic meaning it can interact on the stack and can react to permanent based hate (Thalia, Guardian of Thraben). Some storm decks using Burning Wish as an answer, but its incredibly slow, especially if Maverick is packing 3 - 4 Thalia maindeck.

Caleb Durward made mention of this a while back when comparing combo decks to one another (and Stephen mentions it in the article). This deck is functionally a two card combo (Dark Ritual + Doomsday). Other storm based decks not named DDFT (though I would include that deck to an extent), require one to assemble a critical mass of spells in order to win. The article Caleb wrote makes compelling points that 2 card combo decks are far better than Storm based ones. Show & Tell plus win condition in Legacy, Tinker + Blightsteel Colossus in Vintage, Time Vault + Voltaic Key in Vintage, etc. Two card combos are usually just better because they're simpler to assemble and its easier to reassemble the combo if it is disrupted.


Another question is, if you are looking for a resilient turn 3-4 combo deck why pick this up over High Tide since it has even a better manabase and a more flexible way to battle with hate in the form of Cunning Wish.

High Tide is a fine deck, but comparatively:

1. Doomsday Device runs more counter magic. Using the Hatfield deck list as a basis, it runs 6 pieces of counter magic main deck with access to four more pre board via Cunning Wish or post board after side boarding. Post board, Doomsday Device also gains access to better side boarding options for both the combo matchup and the control match up.

2. High Tide is more susceptible to hate. Gaddock Teeg, Mindbreak Trap, Thalia, Choke, Flusterstorm, graveyard hate, Surgical Extraction effects, etc. all impact High Tide more so than Doomsday Device. As the article points out, a primary advantage of Doomsday Device is that it eschews the traditional combo hate that Legacy players use (or midi gates its impact).

[Smmenen]

Its also the resiliency of the deck.

Belcher: the fastest and most consistent turn one combo deck in the format, but it primary weakness the deck is best classified as a glass cannon. It has no protection pre board and no effective way to recover if it is disrupted.

Storm Based Combo: Doomsday Device has a much more stable mana base, has an easier time fighting through permanent based hate, runs more cantrips allowing for better filtering, and runs an abundance of counter magic meaning it can interact on the stack and can react to permanent based hate (Thalia, Guardian of Thraben). Some storm decks using Burning Wish as an answer, but its incredibly slow, especially if Maverick is packing 3 - 4 Thalia maindeck.

Caleb Durward made mention of this a while back when comparing combo decks to one another (and Stephen mentions it in the article). This deck is functionally a two card combo (Dark Ritual + Doomsday). Other storm based decks not named DDFT (though I would include that deck to an extent), require one to assemble a critical mass of spells in order to win. The article Caleb wrote makes compelling points that 2 card combo decks are far better than Storm based ones. Show & Tell plus win condition in Legacy, Tinker + Blightsteel Colossus in Vintage, Time Vault + Voltaic Key in Vintage, etc. Two card combos are usually just better because they're simpler to assemble and its easier to reassemble the combo if it is disrupted.



High Tide is a fine deck, but comparatively:

1. Doomsday Device runs more counter magic. Using the Hatfield deck list as a basis, it runs 6 pieces of counter magic main deck with access to four more pre board via Cunning Wish or post board after side boarding. Post board, Doomsday Device also gains access to better side boarding options for both the combo matchup and the control match up.

2. High Tide is more susceptible to hate. Gaddock Teeg, Mindbreak Trap, Thalia, Choke, Flusterstorm, graveyard hate, Surgical Extraction effects, etc. all impact High Tide more so than Doomsday Device. As the article points out, a primary advantage of Doomsday Device is that it eschews the traditional combo hate that Legacy players use (or midi gates its impact).

Thank you for replying, and saving me the trouble :)


Library and Graveyard need to stay seperated! This isn't that important but it is relevant for cards such as Aven Mindcensor. I'd advice to practice it correct so that the handling feels comfortable during a tournament.

Which raises a great point: Another way to beat Mindcensor is to get all of your key cards in the graveyard, and play Doomsday because Mindcensor doesn't prevent you from searching your Graveyard!!

[Fossil4182]

Thank you for replying, and saving me the trouble :)

Its amazing what one can do when they read the article and think about it (one of your better deck related articles BTW).

[andy]

@ keeping graveyard and deck separate: I suppose this belongs in the rules forums, but it's relevant here, so I'll ask it here. The graveyard is public knowledge, so it should be legal for an opponent to write down every card in your graveyard before Doomsday resolves. Do they get to see the graveyard at all points during resolution of Doomsday? (I.e., are they allowed to know which cards you're tutoring for that were in the graveyard?)

Note: even if the answer is no, they can still see the exiled cards after Doomsday resolves, and many of the cards Doomsday tutors for are 1-ofs. So they might still be able to work out at least some of the cards in your pile. But if the answer is yes, and the opponent is supposed to be able to see your graveyard throughout the resolution of Doomsday, then I would think combining your graveyard and deck at the start should be a game loss for an illegal action.

[citanul]

A graveyard is public information. Your opponent is allowed to see any card you take from your graveyard to put into your DD pile. A lot of people, myself included, resolve Doomsday wrong.

[Smmenen]

These are good points: But that's probably because the original card Doomsday from weatherlight says to "put your graveyard ontop of your library."

[JACO]

Gentlemen, the current Oracle text of Doomsday is as follows:
"Search your library and graveyard for five cards and exile the rest. Put the chosen cards on top of your library in any order. You lose half your life, rounded up."

Aven Mindcensor would affect the searching of your deck (If an opponent would search a library, that player searches the top four cards of that library instead.), but it doesn't affect searching the graveyard.

[Smmenen]

I would not. We answered all of your questions in our podcast: http://www.mtgcast.com/?p=25162

Just to be clear: we solicited questions here and on twitter, and asked you to submit them to us to answer on the podcast. That's exactly what we did.

Many of the questions you posed here (in this thread) or on twitter were answered in the Q&A section of this podcast.

[Koby]

@Stephen
Which portion of the podcast does the Q&A begin? (I'll have to come back to the meat& potatoes of the podcast at a later time... 3 hours of listening is mighty long)

[Smmenen]

38:45 It's labeled Dday Primer, but it's actually the Q&A.

[TorpidNinja]

In a related question, is there any way to update the podcast player with a way to see the time signature?

[Fossil4182]

In a related question, is there any way to update the podcast player with a way to see the time signature?

Download iTunes and subscribe to the pod cast.

[Smmenen]

In a related question, is there any way to update the podcast player with a way to see the time signature?

I can see the time signature on my iphone, Safari broswer or just by downloading it into quicktime.

[rxavage]

Bought the primer and stoked I own every single card so I can play this deck tomorrow night at the weekly legacy tourney. Is the 75 in the primer different than the 75 discussed in the poscast? Or did you just make that one sb change discussed?

[ThomasDowd]

Bought the primer and stoked I own every single card so I can play this deck tomorrow night at the weekly legacy tourney. Is the 75 in the primer different than the 75 discussed in the poscast? Or did you just make that one sb change discussed?

the 75 in the primer is only slightly different than the 75 in the podcast. I believe the sideboard is the only thing that changed from the primer to the addendum/podcast.

[Smmenen]

The supplement, which was incorporated into a slightly revised article, has the updated list. It's I think an appendix to the new article.

[rxavage]

The supplement, which was incorporated into a slightly revised article, has the updated list. It's I think an appendix to the new article.


I found it on pg 37 of the primer, thank you.

[HokusSchmokus]

Stephen, the article is as always very entertaining and a good read. Even if I do think that the deck is a bit overhyped, I think it is quite powerful and very fun to play.
Well-spent 5 bucks.

[Smmenen]

Thank you (except for the overhyped part)!

The deck is truly nuts, if people would just play it. I have no doubt that if a cadre of pros pick this up for GP Atlanta, they are going to wreck face.

The main problem is that it's very tricky to resolve Doomsday. One thing I didn't mention in the article or supplement is that it's not just difficult to resolve Doomsday, but you basically have to pre-plan your Doomsday BEFORE you cast it so you can manipulate your mana properly on the penultimate turn.

The feature match video I was featured in exemplified this problem. Had I just fetched Sea or Island on the turn I cast Dday, I EASILY win the next turn.

The podcast scenario against burn reinforces this point as well: if you fetch BEFORE casting Dday, it's actually much simpler, and you'll always have at least one counter up (Divert).

I think some people are getting subotpimal results because they aren't playing it very well: you need all the skill of a top notch blue player to efficiently and maximally use Ponders/Brainstorms/Tops, but then you need the combo skill to know when and how to combo. It's a real brainbuster, but thankfully not nearly as challenging as the previous Doomsday variants.

For example, people need to be able to make optimal decisions about how to chain together Brainstorm Ponder, and Top, and when to use each to maximize your chances of finding key cards in conjunction with shuffle effects like Fetchlands. Entire articles have been written on just that topic alone.

[Smmenen]

In a related question, is there any way to update the podcast player with a way to see the time signature?

If you download the podcast in Firefox or another major browser into Windows Media Player, you can also see the time signature. FYI.

[lavafrogg]

Is anyone else finding that discard is good in the list over the random blue counter magic?

[Julian23]

My gut feeling was to go -2 Misdirection -2 Divert into +4 Discard. Not sure whether it should be Duress (taking FoW, Sneak Attack) or IoK (taking Hate Bears, Griselbrand).

[rxavage]

My gut feeling was to go -2 Misdirection -2 Divert into +4 Discard. Not sure whether it should be Duress (taking FoW, Sneak Attack) or IoK (taking Hate Bears, Griselbrand).

IoK doesn't touch Griselbrand, I think Duress or Thoughtseize would be better. The lifeloss from TS should hardly matter since you should be casting it before you Dday.

[Julian23]

From everything I know, life is your most precious resource in this deck. I think Stephen also mentions it somewhere in the article, that most of the time you're more concerned about your life total than about any kind of countermagic your opponent might be holding. After playing this deck for a bit, I strongly agree.

Therefore, no TS for me. Not being able to take Griselbrand is ok when you still hit Show and Tell with Duress AND IoK. Sneak Attack is more of a "Spell Pierce it" kind of thing anyway. I feel IoK right now.

[xfxf]

What about Cabal Therapy main instead of Diverts and Misdirections? If you're holding a probe you can put the therapy on top of your pass-the-turn pile, draw Therapy for the turn, Probe into Mental Note, Therapy their removal/counters, continue with the combo.

[sourcefire]

What about Cabal Therapy main instead of Diverts and Misdirections? If you're holding a probe you can put the therapy on top of your pass-the-turn pile, draw Therapy for the turn, Probe into Mental Note, Therapy their removal/counters, continue with the combo.

What is the upside of using cabal therapy in that pile instead of duress? You're going to get the same counters/removal, duress is better since it is more likely to hit a card when you don't have a probe to go along with the discard, and there's no extra creature to reuse therapy.

[GexxX]

What about Cabal Therapy main instead of Diverts and Misdirections? If you're holding a probe you can put the therapy on top of your pass-the-turn pile, draw Therapy for the turn, Probe into Mental Note, Therapy their removal/counters, continue with the combo.

Probes are often used as your draw 1 or 2 in order to win after you DD. You almost never want to cast it for the information it provides. I think Duress and IoK are both valid in the Deck since all the cards youu really don't want your opponent to have are spells with CC3 or less and do not have "Creature - XYZ " printed on them, at least most of the time.

[rxavage]

From everything I know, life is your most precious resource in this deck. I think Stephen also mentions it somewhere in the article, that most of the time you're more concerned about your life total than about any kind of countermagic your opponent might be holding. After playing this deck for a bit, I strongly agree.

Therefore, no TS for me. Not being able to take Griselbrand is ok when you still hit Show and Tell with Duress AND IoK. Sneak Attack is more of a "Spell Pierce it" kind of thing anyway. I feel IoK right now.

What creatures are you worried about that a darkblast or chain of vapor wouldnt take care of? Duress is much better in this meta

[xfxf]

Yes, Probes are to cast for the draws and it happens to give you information as well. I didn't mean to cast Probe just for the information but since a lot of the time you're casting Probes as part of the kill routine you take a peek at their hand and then take out multiple Swords with one Therapy while you are at it.

I haven't yet taken the deck out to the field but goldfished with it a decent number and found that it's not easy to be holding double protection on turn 3 and still combo out. Therapy can take care of the double protection problem while Duress can't.

[rxavage]

I haven't yet taken the deck out to the field but goldfished with it a decent number and found that it's not easy to be holding double protection on turn 3 and still combo out. Therapy can take care of the double protection problem while Duress can't.

Running duress over misdirection and/or divert was being discussed, so it would be running duress in addition to therapy and in effect potentially saving your Probes for the needed draws and gaining more from cabal therapy.

[ramanujan]

Has anyone else tried lotus petals? I made a post in the podcast thread which shows a few sweet stacks I use now that I have petals in the list. I may end up adding a third in place of the second cabal therapy, but I am not sure yet.

I will try discard sometime in the next couple weeks to see how it goes.

[xfxf]

rxavage, I don't think I made myself clear. I never intend to cast Probe to support Therapy. I aim to cast Probe for the needed draws first and to use Therapy to take away multiple hate from their hand before attempting to Unearth the Maniac.

[DarkAkuma]

I've been trying to piece this deck together, and I have to say I defiantly find going with Duress and Therapy instead of some of the counters to be more interesting. Partly because I don't have Diverts or Spell Pierces yet, but do have Duress and Therapy (been on a 4 year break from mtg). But also just to put the opponent more on the defensive and the simple fact that something like duress essentially does both a Counterspell and a Peek in one. The only issue I see with it is that you want to keep FoW's, but changing out 7-8 counters for those discard spells, you're going to have less options for pitching. Your pretty much going to have to pitch draw spells more, if you will even have a blue spell in hand to pitch at all.

I'm still testing the SCG list since I don't/won't have the primer, so I'm still using Cabal Ritual's. And I have to say, yea, they are underwhelming and I need to cut them soon for something else. 1 Predict is a maybe, but not sure what else just yet.

From the SCG list, I'll likely plan for:

-2 Misdirection
-2 Divert
-2 Cabal Ritual
+4 Duress
+2 Cabal Therapy

...and just hope to grab some Spell Pierces soon.

[dahcmai]

I have the Diverts and Misdirections and I kind of feel like it would be better served by discard also. I played against a Mud deck and I was screaming for those Duresses. Not being able to stop Trinisphere or Chalice except when you have a Force is annoying. Metalworker makes Spell Pierce all but useless.

I added a random Lotus Petal too. It does make some stacks easier to pull off if you know what you are going to run into (Daze, pierce, etc) and you practically always do since you have Probes.

[Smmenen]

What stack does Lotus Petal go in? None that I'm aware of.

[ramanujan]

The message below is copied from the thread on your podcast. In hindsight, I should have posted this information here. Included in this message is the basic framework for the lotus petal stacks. Basically, if you have pieces of the stack in hand but not enough land sources, a substitution can be made. In addition, there are now many more doomsday turn one scenarios when petal is included in the deck.


The deck you created is great. I have made some changes to it which I find beneficial.

1. I added a personal tutor in for one of the misdirection slots. I understand that according to you I don’t need it, but I will be including it. I can tutor for Doomsday, probe, or unearth. I have found it to be worth the slot.

2. I added a street wraith in place of one of the probes. The big reason is that it is instant speed draw for zero. I am sure that you can see why this is good. I know that I am giving up a view on my opponent’s hand, but I have already won a few games on the back of having street wraith instead of probe in my stacks.

3. I swapped two lotus petals for an underground sea and an island. There are a few reasons for this. Firstly, I now have 8 ways to create the needed 3 black to cast doomsday on turn 2 and a few more odd ways to cast doomsday turn one. This is not a big bonus but it does come up often enough. The real benefit is that it allows some pretty great stacks.

4. I also added a second pact of negation instead of the other misdirection and upped the spell pierce to 4 and reduced the divert count to 1. This is a personal preference so know that I am not saying that this counter configuration is better.

The decklist you provided is excellent. I believe mine is a different take on the deck. I have added a bit of speed in exchange for a smaller counter suite. I thought I might also mention a modified stack which I often use on the turn 2 doomsday pass situation.

The stack depends on what you have in hand at the time. In order to win turn 3 you need to have:
1 blue mana available
1 blue or black mana available
1 useless card in hand
1 of the following:
A non-fetch land which allows you to produce UUB
A brainstorm
A gitaxian probe
A lotus petal
Unearth (with access to UU)

Without going into all of the detail, you can set up the pile similar to the following.
Brainstorm
Mental Note
Street Wraith
Laboratory Maniac
Unearth

Take note that this pile requires 3 mana and usually involves passing the turn. The example pile above assumes you have the mana available via petal or land. If you don’t have the mana, just substitute a petal for the card you have in hand. If you have several of the cards in hand already, substitute one or more pacts for additional protection. As an aside, note that it is no problem if you have maniac in hand in these piles, just use the brainstorm to hide the useless card and the Maniac and get another pact for your troubles.

This pile structure, when taken in conjunction with the lotus petals, also provides an excellent framework for turn one doomsday pass piles. I know that the intention of the deck is to provide a double protected kill, but I was amazed at how much quicker the deck gets with the lotus petals. Sometimes you need speed more than a counter suite. My initial testing left me feeling like the deck was a bit slow for my tastes.

I have no intention of actually writing them all out but here is the run down of what you need to win turn two after doomsday turn 1. Notice that this list of options is quite extensive.

In order to go off turn 2 after casting doomsday turn 1, you will need 2 of the following cards (one of each) in hand plus a useless card assuming you have 1 land in play. (Two lotus petals in hand also works, but it is a bit of a corner case) (Just so I mention it, make sure that you don’t have two swamps as your lands, you can figure out why)
Brainstorm
Probe
Street Wraith
Land
Lotus Petal

I will pick a random set of two cards from the following list of 5, Probe and Brainstorm.

So, say I cast doomsday turn 1 using swamp, Dark Ritual, Doomsday.
I have Brainstorm, Probe, and a couple useless cards in hand. Fortunately, one of my useless cards is Maniac (Unlikely, but fun for an example). I will make the stack

TOP
1. Lotus Petal
2. Mental Note
3. Pact of Negation
4. Lotus Petal
5. Unearth

When it becomes my turn again:

I draw and play petal
Cast brainstorm and put maniac and useless card on top, keeping the Mental Note, Pact of Negation, and Petal in hand.
Play second petal and cast Mental Note, bin the maniac and the useless card, drawing me the Unearth.
Tap the swamp for unearth and cast Probe for the win, with counter backup due to the Maniac being in hand on turn one. (Which is strength using this stack, not a weakness)

I also thought that i'd mention that a top in play is about the same as a probe or wraith in hand.

Well, that is it for now. Good luck with the deck everyone and thanks again for writing the great article.

[ramanujan]

Sorry for the double post. I guess there is a first time for everything.

All,

I realized just now that the turn one Doomsday, pass the turn piles are even better than originally shown in my above post.

For example, suppose that your opening grip is:

Doomsday
Lotus Petal
Cabal Ritual
Polluted Delta
Laboratory Maniac
Unearth
BLANK

This hand looks pretty bad, but it goldfishes turn 2 and beats a Swords or Lightning bolt. It is vulnerable to wasteland, but you can’t have everything. The point of this stack is to say “Even if you have Unearth and Maniac in hand with no card draw or mana sources, things are still looking up”.

This is how
Cast Doomsday by fetching Underground Sea, Play Lotus Petal and Cabal Ritual

Set up the following stack

Top
1. Brainstorm
2. Lotus Petal
3. Mental Note
4. Street Wraith
5. Lotus Petal
Bottom

Pretty Sweet

Okay, now I am falling in love with this deck.

[chrisk]

I'm not sure about lotus petal but 2 petals plus cabal doesn't seem good

btw by fetching island in your aforementioned pile you're wasteland proof. petal covers black for calbal. play BS off island t2, the two petals enable mental note and unearth.

but how do you win against sword?

what i see is:

hand:
Doomsday
Lotus Petal
Cabal Ritual
Polluted Delta
Laboratory Maniac
Unearth
BLANK

t1: polluted into island -> petal -> cabal -> DD

pile
Top
1. Brainstorm
2. Lotus Petal
3. Mental Note
4. Street Wraith
5. Lotus Petal
Bottom
hand
Laboratory Maniac
Unearth
BLANK

t2:
draw BS -> play BS off island; draw petal, note, wraith; put back lab man blank; play petal into note, binning lab man blank drawing petal; play petal play unearth -> win with wraith draw no card in hand!
is your play to pass again here in order to respond to plow/bolt with wraith? else i can't see a way to win through plow

[rxavage]

I won with this deck against a mud-welder deck getting hit by jesters MASK* before and after my doomsday, so crazy.

[ramanujan]

Excellent call on getting island and on me assuming that I could cycle in response to the plow. I must admit that I am still figuring out this deck.

I do think that the addition of two lotus petals seems good given the amazing number of turn two stacks at your disposal (hint, my original post on the subject was not nearly thorough enough).

I wonder what Menendian thinks about all of this.

[ThomasDowd]

I won with this deck against a mud-welder deck getting hit by jesters cap before and after my doomsday, so crazy.


so you played against a small child? or vegetable?

I don;t understand how braindead your opponent would have to be to not take the time after activating jester's cap to figure out how your deck wins, but then again, your opponent was playing MUD and was playing jester's cap.

[dahcmai]

The petal was useful for me in situations where I knew someone had a Spell Pierce or counter and I needed just one more mana to counter back or pay for a Daze. You get the idea. It can also be used to go off a turn earlier if needed. You just trade a draw for a mana.

For example, imagine this scenario.


In play.

You: Island, Swamp because you didn't get any lands early or got wasted a couple of times, who cares, that's what you have.

Opponent: More than enough critters to swing and kill you. like 10 or so damage.

You need to go off this turn and have 1 probe, 2 rituals, 2 doomsdays in hand, and a top in play. Got stuck in this situation once.

So you cast both rituals off the swamp. Doomsday go to 5 life. Float 2 black.

Stack
Brainstorm
Petal
Mental Note
Maniac
Unearth

Probe into brainstorm. Use Brainstorm to get Note and petal. Putting back Maniac and other Doomsday.

Use Petal for U to use Mental Note and do the rest as normal.

It's niche, but it's nice to have it available. You can use the petal as an early booster also to get a third black for doomsday if you need it, Daze Mana, an extra U to pay for a Spell pierce you want as back up, etc. Granted, just adding pact into the stack takes care of most of these situations, there are some reasons you would stack it with a petal instead.

[B.C.]

I played this deck at Superstars $500 Legacy event this weekend in San Jose. Went 0-3 drop. Lost to Dredge, UW Stone Blade, and Show & Tell/Sneak Attack. Overall I found the deck to be pretty slow and fairly bad. It's a good turn 3 deck IF you can find a Ritual and Doomsday within the first 2-3 turns and you have more counters than the other player. I had trouble finding Doomsdays several times, and I had problems resolving it. I was 2 for 3 in games when I resolved Doomsday. I gave it the old "college try", but I won't be playing this deck again. Back to DDFT.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

I played this deck at Superstars $500 Legacy event this weekend in San Jose. Went 0-3 drop. Lost to Dredge, UW Stone Blade, and Show & Tell/Sneak Attack. Overall I found the deck to be pretty slow and fairly bad. It's a good turn 3 deck IF you can find a Ritual and Doomsday within the first 2-3 turns and you have more counters than the other player. I had trouble finding Doomsdays several times, and I had problems resolving it. I was 2 for 3 in games when I resolved Doomsday. I gave it the old "college try", but I won't be playing this deck again. Back to DDFT.

I have also had varied experiences with the deck. As Steve describes in his article, the deck can go of as early as turn two with protection. Sometimes it even seems unstoppable (i have been able to win through my opponent casting Force, Daze, a Stifle (for top activation) and having an active Grim Lavamancer in play). Other times, however, i have experienced exactly what B.C. describes in the post above.

I went 1-4 in a local tourney yesterday. One match should have definitely been a win but i made a stupid mistake on game three which cost me the match. But there were also games when i Pondered and Brainstormed the hell out of my deck only to find more cantrips and lands. I must have definitely made more mistakes than i am aware of and will practice a bit more to give it a second try (must say i do have experience playing storm decks, so i'm not new to the concept of playing combo), but, as B.C. points out, i also found the deck a bit slow for the format (perhaps about half a turn too slow).

Edit: Also, for what it's worth, i ran 2 Duress instead of the 2 Divert. I don't think i came across any situation where Divert would have wanted to have the Diverts instead. I can see Divert being better in certain scenarios but i'll stick to Duress / Inquisiton of Kozilek for the time being.

[Smmenen]

I played this deck at Superstars $500 Legacy event this weekend in San Jose. Went 0-3 drop. Lost to Dredge, UW Stone Blade, and Show & Tell/Sneak Attack. Overall I found the deck to be pretty slow and fairly bad. It's a good turn 3 deck IF you can find a Ritual and Doomsday within the first 2-3 turns and you have more counters than the other player. I had trouble finding Doomsdays several times, and I had problems resolving it. I was 2 for 3 in games when I resolved Doomsday. I gave it the old "college try", but I won't be playing this deck again. Back to DDFT.


I don't know how to help you out because in my extensive testing, I didn't have trouble finding Dday. The games I lost were largely because I got burned out or killed (often unexpectedly) the turn after I played Dday or because I lost to the nut draws or silver bullets like Thalia.

The problem with Petal is that it actually just replaces the mana you spent to cast Brainstorm. I like that Petal helps you play turn 2 Dday, like Cabal Ritual, while also being useful the turn you go off, but otherwise I'm not really big on it. I prefer the threshold bonus of Cabal Ritual over Petal's slightly greater versatility.

[Fossil4182]

@Smmenen

After cutting Flusterstorm from the sideboard, how are you approaching the combo decks games 2 & 3?

Currently (supplement list), I'm boarding in

+2 Cabal Therapy

-1 Darkblast
-1 Cabal Ritual

[Stone]

Looks fun - just listened to the podcast and towards the end of some of those scenarios my brain went *POP!* :) Thanks for putting in the time/articles/podcast support.

In listening to the pod cast, it seems a big part of deciding on piles was anticipating the opponents hate as correct answers need to be incorporated into the pile (almost preemptively). Hopefully playing this will improve my format awareness and playskill (and hopefully not bruise the ego too much while learning/losing). ;)

Can imagine this need to anticipate hate will lead to me wanting to over-rely on probe/therapies before putting a pile together (perhaps why others have suggested replacing some counters with discard). Am sure your article explains how you arrived at this list - am looking forward to reading it and interested in the choice to focus on the counterspell redundancy when so many other legacy lists are leaning towards proactive silence/discard style answers at present or flexible solutions like burning wish to solve problems on the turn you go off. Clearly the minimum playskill threshold is much higher for this deck that many others that rely on disruption and a quick clock - so many decisions.

I think the biggest barrier for me could be switching to this forward thinking mindset in planning out not only a doomsday pile to win - but one that plays around hate I've made the conscious decision to anticipate.

Looking forward to getting time to buy/go through your primer and any future tournament reports/articles you write for the deck.

EDIT: Just bought primer - looks like a fun read.

[Stoyrm]

I like the deck, but it seems like RUG is a horrendous matchup, anyone else care to share their playtesting results? :D

[Smmenen]

Misdirect their burn onto their Delvers (or Goyfs) and play only basic lands to play around Price and Wasteland. If you really can't race them, bring in Spellskites or even play them maindeck. They shore you up pretty solidly.

[Sylfax]

Hi,
I bought and read the primer, playing this deck for 2 months and I love it. :smile:
However, I have to say that it is not always easy to find Doomsday. I lost games for 2 reasons:
- I could not find DDay
- The stack was wrong
It 's true, DD is almost never countered, but it is not always easy to get Ritual and DD in the early rounds. :mad:
So I made ​​some changes:
- I added a Personal tutor. It find DD and side cards... great, I win more than a couple of games
- Excellent idea to put Street Wraith in place of a Probe
- I have taken out the Divert (I have NEVER used it) and I put 3 Duress, which saved me a couple of games. Divert is beautiful, but if there are no creatures in play except Maniac and oppo cast a StP, what we do with the Divert? Duress is always to strike!
- I was considering adding 1 Deep Analysis because often I have seen that I have not two draw to win the same turn. If we have enough mana and life, we can DA to trigger Maniac.
- What do you say about Predict? Does the same job of Notes, but does it better because it mills maniac only and gives us two cards (protection / draw) in hand.
- What do you think about Lim Dul Crypt? Some combo (Dream Hall or Hive Mind) play it, it is instant and search any card!

[Smmenen]

Thanks for your interest & feedback.

I've been playing with a single Predict in my list, and it's amazing. If you have the mana, it's a draw 2, and with all of the library manipulation, it's a early/mid-game source of card advantage.

[TerribleTim68]

So this deck seems to have fallen off the earth about 4 months ago. Anyone know what happened? Did the meta shift enough to make it unplayable? Did Deathrite Shaman make this big an impact? What happened? Has anyone kept this deck up? Has anyone been able to adapt it to the current meta?

[Lemnear]

So this deck seems to have fallen off the earth about 4 months ago. Anyone know what happened? Did the meta shift enough to make it unplayable? Did Deathrite Shaman make this big an impact? What happened? Has anyone kept this deck up? Has anyone been able to adapt it to the current meta?

Most of the reasons are already listed: It's pretty slow, vulnerable to discard and graveyard removal (BUG) as long as you plan to Combo in a reasonable timeframe, hurt by the metashift from spell snare to spell pierce etc.

Dunno if it's still playable; my latest list contained a set of Predicts for raw power and even more insane piles. Tbh atm this deck is a Turn 4/5 combo unless you goldfish

[Smmenen]

I just saw this: I played this in a Grand Prix Denver Trial in December, which I won but gave the byes away because I wasn't planning to attend the GP. I updated the list in the puzzle article (one of the updates is a maindeck Predict), which was published in November. I discussed the updated list and some tips in the thread on the puzzle article: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24883-Premium-Article-Doomsday-The-Puzzling-Five-Doomsday-Puzzles-to-Blow-Your-Mind!/page2

My maindeck is much improved for the metagame as well, I think (at least, for where it was a few months ago).

The main problem with Deathrite Shaman isn't the way it disrupts your combo, but your often low life total post-Doomsday. I have found that you can often deal with it by Misdirecting their Abrupt Decay to their Shaman. You have be very careful about your life total when playing against Shaman and very careful in developing your resources. But I've beaten it plenty already.

I would play this in more tournaments, but there are no Legacy tournaments near me.

[Fossil4182]

The main problem with Deathrite Shaman isn't the way it disrupts your combo, but your often low life total post-Doomsday. I have found that you can often deal with it by Misdirecting their Abrupt Decay to their Shaman. You have be very careful about your life total when playing against Shaman and very careful in developing your resources. But I've beaten it plenty already.

Are you considering publishing an addendum which includes adjustments to the Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay metagame?

[Smmenen]

Are you considering publishing an addendum which includes adjustments to the Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay metagame?

The Puzzle Article serves as an addenda - since it has my latest list and changes. It also presents puzzles that, if mastered, I think the pilot can probably navigate this deck through anything.

If I had more opportunity to play Legacy and test Legacy, I would probably write some matchup articles, but I'm totally swamped with both my latest Vintage combo decks and my history series.

[countorlandea]

Hi stephen, just want to first say that I loved the primer and puzzles and it was well worth the money.

I've been playing legacy on and off (usually casually) since 2007, but now I want to make the next step to competitive play. I want my breakthrough to be at the scg open legacy in Atlanta, this April. I am currently trying to build a legacy deck and originally wanted to make sneaky show, but the 2000$ price tag has somewhat deterred me (only somewhat).

I love combo decks so I've narrowed it down to your doomsday or sneak and show, I was just wondering if you think that your deck is still a strong choice for today's meta. Do you still think that this deck can Top 8? Do you plan on tweaking/updating this deck anytime soon? I'll be asking more as Atlanta approaches.

My testing so far has been mediocre at best, HOWEVER, many a loss was due in part to poor DD-pile selections, which I realize I will get better with as I become more comfortable with dealing with different threats. I still question the resiliency of this deck compared to sneaky show.

Thanks :)

[socialite]

Hi stephen, just want to first say that I loved the primer and puzzles and it was well worth the money.

I've been playing legacy on and off (usually casually) since 2007, but now I want to make the next step to competitive play. I want my breakthrough to be at the scg open legacy in Atlanta, this April. I am currently trying to build a legacy deck and originally wanted to make sneaky show, but the 2000$ price tag has somewhat deterred me (only somewhat).

I love combo decks so I've narrowed it down to your doomsday or sneak and show, I was just wondering if you think that your deck is still a strong choice for today's meta. Do you still think that this deck can Top 8? Do you plan on tweaking/updating this deck anytime soon? I'll be asking more as Atlanta approaches.

My testing so far has been mediocre at best, HOWEVER, many a loss was due in part to poor DD-pile selections, which I realize I will get better with as I become more comfortable with dealing with different threats. I still question the resiliency of this deck compared to sneaky show.

Thanks :)

Don't buy into the hype machine, obvious troll account.

[Koby]

Don't buy into the hype machine, obvious troll account.

Let's try to keep the posts in this thread to discussion of the ideas the original poster has presented, and not the method of accessing the content.
I don't necessarily agree with paid content, but I understand it exists.

[countorlandea]

Don't buy into the hype machine, obvious troll account.



Thanks, but my questions were aimed at stephen menendian, 2007 vintage world champion, not you. :)

[socialite]

Let's try to keep the posts in this thread to discussion of the ideas the original poster has presented, and not the method of accessing the content.
I don't necessarily agree with paid content, but I understand it exists.

I own this article and as someone who plays DDFT it was a waste of money. My post had nothing to do with the delivery vehicle, rather the quality of the content being provided which is what I assume this thread is for. I just find it hilarious that it is being bumped by new accounts that subsequently stop posting. As someone who has been involved with Vintage since the early 2000's I find most of Stevens content to be highly repetitive and hyped, this article was no different.

Edit: I suppose my use of the word buy was a poor choice. "Don't read into the hype".

[countorlandea]

I own this article and as someone who plays DDFT it was a waste of money. My post had nothing to do with the delivery vehicle, rather the quality of the content being provided which is what I assume this thread is for. I just find it hilarious that it is being bumped by new accounts that subsequently stop posting. As someone who has been involved with Vintage since the early 2000's I find most of Stevens content to be highly repetitive and hyped, this article was no different.

Edit: I suppose my use of the word buy was a poor choice. "Don't read into the hype".



I'm not necessarily buying or reading into any hype.

But sometimes I get wicked hands, ie (top, fow, ritual, bstorm, doomsday, 2 fetch lands, turn 2 doomsday with force of will back up, gg)

and I feel like theres a WHOLE lot more to this deck than meets the eye (as I discovered from reading the primer, but that is simply a primer, not a master guide on how to play every situation).

I'd really like to run it if it can be successful

[Star|Scream]

I'm not necessarily buying or reading into any hype.

But sometimes I get wicked hands, ie (top, fow, ritual, bstorm, doomsday, 2 fetch lands, turn 2 doomsday with force of will back up, gg)

and I feel like theres a WHOLE lot more to this deck than meets the eye (as I discovered from reading the primer, but that is simply a primer, not a master guide on how to play every situation).

I'd really like to run it if it can be successful

How do you win the game that turn if you have to force through your doomsday?

[emidln]

How do you win the game that turn if you have to force through your doomsday?
Obviously you topdeck Dark Ritual or an LED so you can go Dark Rit, Dark Rit, Doomsday, (their counter), FoW, Meditate, Petal, Rit, Rit, SDT, Tendrils

Err wait, wrong deck. I mean you don't win. You lack the mana/free cantrip to actually play both SDT and Doomsday on turn 1. Further, if you play SDT on turn 1 (so you'd have a 2nd draw spell), you cannot win on turn 2 due to being short blue mana. You could play turn 1 SDT, turn 2 DD, turn 3 win.

[GGoober]

Don't buy into the hype machine, obvious troll account.

Lol, you're reading into it too much, but it's funny that it does seem that every month a member with low post comes in and bumps the thread. How relevant is DDFT anyway right now in the meta? In fact the best resource for DDFT is probably on the stormboards and not the Source.

I enjoy Steve's writing and older works, but I agree that sometimes they follow the same style too closely that every article ends up feeling the same (despite his effectiveness in communicating each 'cloned' piece as being an original article). He does put a lot of work and detail and I think one has to respect that in the MTG community.

[countorlandea]

How do you win the game that turn if you have to force through your doomsday?


its impossible to win turn 1 with doomsday.

its possible to win turn 2 though, or if you fear they have more countermagic after they try to disrupt your doomsday, you can choose a more counter-resistant dd-pile and wait until turn 3.

My example is still a turn 3 win.

[Chikenbok]

its impossible to win turn 1 with doomsday.



Uhm.. what?

Hand - LED, Ritual, Doomsday, Probe, Land, X, Y.

[Lejay]

Steve was talking about the UB Doomsday maniac deck.

[Smmenen]

Hi stephen, just want to first say that I loved the primer and puzzles and it was well worth the money.

I've been playing legacy on and off (usually casually) since 2007, but now I want to make the next step to competitive play. I want my breakthrough to be at the scg open legacy in Atlanta, this April. I am currently trying to build a legacy deck and originally wanted to make sneaky show, but the 2000$ price tag has somewhat deterred me (only somewhat).

I love combo decks so I've narrowed it down to your doomsday or sneak and show, I was just wondering if you think that your deck is still a strong choice for today's meta. Do you still think that this deck can Top 8? Do you plan on tweaking/updating this deck anytime soon? I'll be asking more as Atlanta approaches.

My testing so far has been mediocre at best, HOWEVER, many a loss was due in part to poor DD-pile selections, which I realize I will get better with as I become more comfortable with dealing with different threats. I still question the resiliency of this deck compared to sneaky show.

Thanks :)

I'm glad you enjoyed the Puzzle article.

Sam Krohlow played this deck this past weekend at SCG Cinci, so he may be a good resource. I also trust Emidlin's judgment.

I very much enjoy playing this deck, but it is extremely difficult to play correctly and needs hours and hours of testing against a range of decks. If you enjoy puzzles, then this is a deck for you. One piece of guidance though is to increasingly play around graveyard hate. Decks like Deathrite Shaman make it harder to rely on the standard combo kill.

You have to really become familiar with all of the basic patterns. You have to really delve into the RUG and BUG matchup and learn how to win at each life total and each situation. Ideally, you want to win every game against Delver decks at 1 life. This means you are maximizing all of your resources. I will be the first to admit that despite my experience with this deck, I am still not at the place where I feel comfortable rolling a tournament with it. I believe that to do well with this deck takes much more than testing or practice: it requires at least several tournament experiences.


My post had nothing to do with the delivery vehicle, rather the quality of the content being provided which is what I assume this thread is for.

What did you not like about the puzzles? Did you not find them entertaining or interesting? I'm sorry that you didn't -- I put a ridiculous amount of time into them.

I'm surprised to hear that because we've only received positive feedback on the puzzle article so far. I had never published a puzzle article that was so faithful to the original concept of Maro's The Puzzling, and thought Dday provided a fun vehicle to do so. I'm honestly disappointed that you found the content lacking. I was told that the puzzles were fun, interesting and challenging.


Lol, you're reading into it too much, but it's funny that it does seem that every month a member with low post comes in and bumps the thread.

A fact, which, I assure you I am not responsible for. I'm sure an admin can verify. I don't make fake accounts on message boards (or anywhere, for that matter). Nor do I encourage friends or teammates to do that. (the fact that this person is talking about SCG atl should also be a clue, since I live in Cali)

If your opponent forces your first turn Doomsday, you just have to play another Doomsday. I tend not to play first turn Doomsdays, however, since you have to have a very specific set of cards to win that way. This deck is designed to be more grindy.


I enjoy Steve's writing and older works, but I agree that sometimes they follow the same style too closely that every article ends up feeling the same

Really? This puzzle article couldn't be more different, no? And, how do primer's on totally different decks end up feeling like the same article? I'm just trying to understand this...

[emidln]

Steve,

Something that I'm a bit more interested in discussing is a hybridization between DDFT and Maniac Doomsday. Force of Will and Flusterstorm are both extremely valuable in the current metagame. That said, losing the ability to Brainstorm in a bad spot and "just win" hurts me a lot, given how powerful other decks can be (given jund a chance to do things like activate liliana more, draw abrupt decay, cascade into Hymn to Tourach). As such, I'd like to have access to the following:

Set of cantrips (17 minimum I think, although I'd be inclined towards 18-19) - SDT/Brainstorm/Ponder/Gitaxian Probe/Mental Note/Unearth/Predict
3 LED
3 Burning Wish / 3 Doomsday split
1 Lotus Petal (this is necessary for some storm kills, as well as being generally useful when trying to build some maniac piles)
4 Force of Will

The immediate Derp, Derp response is BUT LED AND FOW are a NONBO!!11

The response is correct. I submit the protection package you actually want is a mix of these cards:

Force of Will
Pact of Negation
Cabal Therapy
Flusterstorm
Thoughtseize

You do not want Spell Pierce as the things it protects you from the best are things that having LED in your deck for quick kills and Shelldock/Emrakul in your board make you mostly immune to. You want discard because it lets you legit kill with storm plan when you draw LED, and it's also fine when wanting to disrupt other combo decks, aggro, or control.

All of these cards protect you when you are killing with Lab Maniac, and a good portion of them also protect when you are killing Tendrils. All of them except Pact protect Shelldock/Emrakul. The places you are not protected
while killing with Tendrils typically do not matter. You are killing them with Tendrils because you have been better at grinding them, because they don't play blue, or because they tried to counter a setup spell (like a discard spell, a dark ritual, etc). Against aggro decks, if you use Force of Will at all, it's on their turn stopping something nasty from affecting your setup. This is the same as Flusterstorm.

To recap, the bargain we are making is this:

I want a good manabase with 4-5 basics and plenty of fetches.
I want to play a bunch of disruption that is good against other combo decks, which I consider to be the best decks in the format.
I want to "oops you're dead" to people who don't deign to play combo decks or control decks (nice forest, p.s. kill you)
I want more business when dealing with discard decks.
I'm okay with trading pure goldfish speed from a storm deck with lots of acceleration for consistency derived from cantrips. As a nice bonus, cantrip=LED when you want to kill anyway.
I'd rather attack from other angles than dilute my deck with hate. (Lab Man as an answer to Teeg, Shelldock Isle as an answer to Counterbalance)
Sometimes I'm going to lose because I have to cast Doomsday and then use LED to win this turn, and all I have is Force of Will.
Sometimes I'm going to create non-ideal piles because I'm holding Unearth, Mental Note, or Predict but want to storm.

LED is actually pretty strong with Lab Man. You have a reasonable win this turn/pass the turn pile that has no extra requirements besides 1UU. Obviously it won't work with FoW using LED, but it is a way to kill that ignores graveyard hate. For a slot, it even ignores removal (Chromatic Sphere slot is extremely debatable). It allows you to switch to a higher gear when opponents fight you over setup (which is extremely common) so that you don't end up passing the turn.

Burning Wish is interesting as it provides some ways to win that ignore stuff like Red Elemental Blast, can deal with losing the roll to a discard deck via finding Doomsday or Time Spiral (depending on the situation), and conveniently also has utility via cards like Massacre and Cabal Therapy. It acts as spare Doomsdays while also providing an efficient means of killing this turn (Tendrils of Agony). Further, the cost of playing it (2 duals isn't extremely high, and you can still do it while running 4-5 basics).

Disadvantages this approach has compared to DDFT:

- less explosive due to less acceleration and slightly worse (for killing with tendrils) cantrips
- FoW's card disadvantage is extremely relevant vs certain blue decks (compared to Duress or Silence)
- FoW provides yet another opportunity (besides cantripping, mismanaging life, storm, fetches, duals, floating mana, what's left in your deck, and Doomsday) to lose the game by playing poorly

Disadvantages this approach has compared to Maniac Doomsday:

- less raw disruption
- increased "dead" cards of LED vs grindy blue decks
- slightly worse manabase

I've been playing a list along the lines of:

2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
// 17

1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
// 8

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Mental Note
1 Unearth
// 18

3 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
1 Lab Maniac
// 7

4 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
// 10

Last 7 cards (in no particular order):

Chain of Vapor
Pact of Negation
Flusterstorm #2
Cabal Therapy
Gitaxian Probe
Predict
Cabal Ritual

The sideboard cards that I absolutely want:

Tendrils of Agony
Doomsday
Time Spiral
Cabal Therapy
Infernal Contract
Massacre
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Shelldock Isle
Karakas
Chain of Vapor (if it isn't in my maindeck)

I'd probably accept the following cards as well:

- Anything I've cut (the top7), possibly in multiples
- Pyroblast
- 4th LED (awesome vs discard)

[MVC]

Emid, looking at your list one thing struck me. Since this configuration is playing maniac main as one of it's primary winning conditions doesn't this give us the possibility to include a maindeck Shelldock Isle? It doesn't actually change our way to victory because we still require Doomsday, but it does allow us to get LM into play cheaper and protect him until the very last minute. It also gives us an extra sideboard slot. Downsides are obviously that Shelldock isn't actually an Island (whose place it would probably take) which makes it mediocre to terrible in your opening hand and gives you one less basic to fetch. It's a bad natural draw aswell, but with the amount of cardselection this deck plays I don't believe this should be too much of an issue. And of coure it's a turn slower.

Regarding Unearth and Mental Note, would you be able to give some basic interactions with Unearth and Mental Note? Particularily Unearth is unclear to me, because if you would have LM in play pre-DD it's not great because it's hard to find and DD removes LM from your graveyard. Post DD it could be useful, but you still lose to Swords or other instant speed removal. What kind of interaction am I missing here? Maybe Unearth is the slot Shelldock Isle could be?

Regardless of the previous statements, the deck looks really cool and like a lot of fun. If it is in fact able to combine Tendrils with Force of Will it's a little like living the dream, and it might be the best combo deck in the format.

[emidln]

Emid, looking at your list one thing struck me. Since this configuration is playing maniac main as one of it's primary winning conditions doesn't this give us the possibility to include a maindeck Shelldock Isle? It doesn't actually change our way to victory because we still require Doomsday, but it does allow us to get LM into play cheaper and protect him until the very last minute. It also gives us an extra sideboard slot. Downsides are obviously that Shelldock isn't actually an Island (whose place it would probably take) which makes it mediocre to terrible in your opening hand and gives you one less basic to fetch. It's a bad natural draw aswell, but with the amount of cardselection this deck plays I don't believe this should be too much of an issue. And of coure it's a turn slower.


Literally no reason to SI->Maniac, since Emrakul has no real drawback from a Doomsday pile, cannot be countered (which is why you're okay passing the turn to begin with), and paying U+tapping SI plus having another cantrip to dig 3 seems really bad. Consider this:

Shelldock Isle
Brainstorm
Lab Man
blank
blank

You play DD, pass, draw SI, play it exiling Lab Man and stacking Brainstorm on top. 3 Cards left in library. Next turn, draw Brainstorm, cast it. You're vulnerable to creature removal, you've passed the turn twice, and they can actually still counter your Lab Man.

Now, having Lab Man does make SI better, by virtue of Lab Man being easier to cast, more reliable, and faster to kill as a backup plan than a 2nd Doomsday, but not to the point that you'd actually want the Shelldock Isle maindeck.



Regarding Unearth and Mental Note, would you be able to give some basic interactions with Unearth and Mental Note? Particularily Unearth is unclear to me, because if you would have LM in play pre-DD it's not great because it's hard to find and DD removes LM from your graveyard. Post DD it could be useful, but you still lose to Swords or other instant speed removal. What kind of interaction am I missing here? Maybe Unearth is the slot Shelldock Isle could be?


Unearth and Mental Note are just efficient at letting you construct low-cost Lab Man piles that don't discard your hand. This is the contribution Steve introduced in this article, and it's something that I at least overlooked completely when Lab Man came out. It is in some ways a throw back to the 2004/2005 Doomsday lists that attempted to kill with Sutured Ghoul, just much more efficient. It gives you another option in your toolbox:

Ways you can efficiently kill someone with Doomsday:

Tendrils (assisted by LED, can't use FoW, ignores yard hate)
Tendrils (assisted by Dark Ritual, can use FoW, ignores yard hate)
Tendrils (assisted by Time Spiral, probably vulnerable to everything ever played minus discard spells)
Lab Maniac (assisted by LED, can't use FoW, ignores yard hate)
Lab Maniac (assisted by Mental Note/Unearth, can use FoW, loses to yard hate that you can't counter)
Lab Maniac (assisted by Dark Ritual, can use FoW, ignores yard hate, slightly more mana intensive (read slower))
Emrakul (assisted by Shelldock Isle, can use FoW, ignores graveyard hate, loses to Needle and Wasteland (can be combined with Lab Man to not autolose to Wasteland/SI))

If you want to open up a little, you still have reasonable piles with Helm of Awakening/SDTs/storm kill for 1-2 slots

In the concept, you also have the following ways to win via storming naturally:

Opponent's spells (counterspsells/cantrips)
Chain of Vapor
Sensei's Divining Top
Time Spiral
Infernal Contract

As well as a potential alternate win condition in ETW.

Now, the ways of storming naturally are not likely to be too reliable with only 8 accel. This is something I still need to work out, because I feel like the ideal number of acceleration is around 11 for the explosiveness that I would like. That said, those options are there.

[DarkConfidant]

@emidln

I've been doing some work with a list similar to the one you posted, though not going as far create a hybridization of DDFT and Stephen's DD lists. After reading through the DDFT discussions, I've been tinkering with a maindeck Lion's Eye Diamond and Idea's Unbound in the maindeck as a means of combatting Deathrite Shaman. I'm still figuring out the piles and the requirements, but I'll post it when I the information operationalized into a cogent system.

Regarding the list you posted. How often do you find yourself casting Doomsday and passing the turn? Do you see that as a tactical weakness of Doomsday decks or given the environment, is that an acceptable line of play?

[Namida]

Now, the ways of storming naturally are not likely to be too reliable with only 8 accel. This is something I still need to work out, because I feel like the ideal number of acceleration is around 11 for the explosiveness that I would like. That said, those options are there.

Your initial proposed list has those "Last 7" slots to play around with where you could conceivably try to add more acceleration--but what would be the best acceleration you can play that isn't already in the deck? More Lotus Petals? Cabal Ritual?

[emidln]

Your initial proposed list has those "Last 7" slots to play around with where you could conceivably try to add more acceleration--but what would be the best acceleration you can play that isn't already in the deck? More Lotus Petals? Cabal Ritual?

The next acceleration spell would be Cabal Ritual. The most limiting factor in the deck is achieving BBB when you want to win the game. Extra ways of doing this are good. Cabal Ritual would get the initial nod over Rain of Filth by virtue of being more useful if you want to pass the turn.

[leegoo]

stuff

I want some number of Divert / Misdirection in the board... probably 1/1.

In the main I think I'd rather have the PoN > Fstorm (although that's just from looking) and almost certainly want the 4th probe, probably cutting the 10th protection spell for it. (it's also possible this is a spot for predict.)

I think CoV should definitely sit on the board in this kind of build. I also really like the idea of Pyroblast in some number as well in the board.