Flames Belcher

[dontbiteitholmes]

A new take on an old idea..

Updated Decklist 6/10/12
// Lands
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 Lotus Petal
1 Past in Flames
3 Personal Tutor
4 Seething Song
4 Autumn's Veil
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Land Grant
3 Reforge the Soul
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Goblin Charbelcher

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Personal Tutor
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Bribery
SB: 1 Hull Breach
SB: 1 Past In Flames
SB: 1 FireBolt
So basically you get the comboness of Belcher with a plethora of second chance opportunities when your opponent plays disruption. You lose a little of the explosiveness of the original list but gain a lot of consistency. I have fewer turn 1 blowouts than traditional lists but also FAR FAR fewer mulligans and almost no complete fizzles.

Card Explanations -
Taiga - Obvious
Tropical Island - Yes it occasionally is a hassle to play 2 lands, but this is seldom a true problem when compared to the opportunities playing blue grants you in Personal Tutor vs. disruption decks.
Simian Spirit Guide/Elvish Spirit Guide/Lotus Petal/Seething Song/Lion's Eye Diamond/Chrome Mox/Land Grant/Rite of Flame/Desperate Ritual - Fast mana wins games.
Past in Flames - Synergy with PiF, good late game tutor target vs. blue decks game 1.
Personal Tutor - Puts Reforge on top obviously. Also occasionally useful in putting Rite/Land Grant/Past in Flames/Burning Wish/EtW on top to set up that next turn win.
Reforge the Soul - Gives you insane amounts of explosiveness vs. non-blue decks. Allows you to get second chances vs. disruption based decks with P Tutor or just random top deck blowouts.
Burning Wish - Gets wincons. Gets answers to permanents. Gets draw 7s. Gets P Tutor to let you reset hands.
Empty the Warrens/Goblin Charbelcher - Winning the game is good.
Autumn's Veil - The extra bit helps vs. blue decks, which are everywhere right now and we are still heavily favored vs. non-blue decks even with 4 dead cards.

// Sideboard
Pyroclasm - Deals with hate bears and occasionally buys you many turns vs. a horde.
Personal Tutor - Allows you to Wish for Tutor getting Reforge resetting hands.
Reforge the Soul - Draws 7
Empty the Warrens - Wincon
Xantid Swarm - Hate on counterspells
Diminishing Returns - Draw 7 off LED w/o access to 5 mana. Seems to happen quite enough to be relevant
Shattering Spree - Deals with Artifacts
Reverent Silence - Deals with Chants
Tendrils of Agony - Wins on the back of a chain of Reforges in a single turn which can be incredibly relevant when you are down to your last chance
Bribery - Hey can I borrow a Griselbrand? Draw 14, win, thanks you can have him back now.
Hull Breach - Bring it in vs. decks without counters to replace the Veils
Firebolt - G2/G3 tutorable hate vs. bears to get you out from under Thalia/Teeg/Canonist

Cuts from original list
Gitaxian Probe - I really only care about what's in your hand if it's counterspells, cut for MD Veils
Telemin Performance - Wish target vs. Reanimator/Show&Tell. Cut for Bribery.

Basic Sideboarding - Pretty straight forward. Are they playing counterspells?
If YES... -1 Past in Flames -2Song +3 Swarm
No counters?
-4 Veil +1 P Tutor +1 Hull Breach +1 Firebolt +1 Reforge (Hate on hate bears and artifacts/chants that can be annoying now MD Tutorable as well as Clasm/Silence/Spree in SB for Wishes)
SB strats still a work in progress BTW. Let me know if you have a better idea.

The deck plays very differently than traditional belcher decks. Simply put you often have many more options available, so while the deck is more consistent, it is not quite the autopilot of standard builds as you have more chances to just misplay your way out of a match.

In testing so far the deck has performed very well. I took it to a 4-0 finish in the Legacy challenge side event at SCG Madison then got no sleep that night and misplayed terribly all day Sunday and shit the bed at the main event (Though I did win several interesting games that day including a fairly close match I won vs. RUG Delver where I won G3 through double Stifle double FoW, a game vs. Welder I won through first turn 3Sphere and Chalice @ 0, a game vs. UWb Control through double Force, double Inquisition, and Jace @ 11 counters with Batterskull on a Stoneforge.) I also took the deck to a GP Atlanta GPT and missed getting the 3 byes by a single game (flipped Trop on second card off a turn 2 Belcher then had him play Thalia, Grip my Belcher).

Many of the games/matches I've lost with this deck so far came down to simple play errors on my part. I usually talk to my opponents post game to see if I could have won and often find with a different line of play I could have take the W. Part of the problem is I've been super busy with school and haven't had time to play much also local weekly events haven't been firing with everyone finishing exams (and NO ONE ever wants to play test against Belcher).

The ability to often pitch every card but 1 in your hand to "go for it" then use that one card to reload and try again in 1 or 2 turns has proven very powerful. This thread is now open for discussion/questions/comments. I may add some past match reports later but I need to get up early tomorrow.

[John Cox]

If your trying to cast personal tutor where's manamorphose ?

[dontbiteitholmes]

If your trying to cast personal tutor where's manamorphose ?

I tried ManaMorphose it just doesn't work. The main problem is that it costs 2 which means you are often casting it using a one off mana source which means it has anti-synergy with personal tutor. You also find yourself in positions where you have to choose between using a Petal or Guide to cast it and hoping you draw a mana source to go off (or whiff and fizzle) or waiting until you draw what you need and maybe getting a hate bear dropped on you and then just casting it for storm count anyways in the end. It also doesn't generate mana which leads to the argument of what to take out for it. Probe takes that spot and just does it better. It shows your opponents hand, it imprints on Mox for blue in a pinch (which is relevant more often then casting MM for blue to cast Tutor then putting RTS on top and usually discarding the card you cantripped anyways), it draws a card. Trust me I follow the logic, you want blue mana sometimes, Manamorphose goes in traditional Belcher and can generate blue mana, but when theory turns to practice it's just not what I thought it would be so it was an easy cut.

[Lord Seth]

In testing so far the deck has performed very well. I took it to a 4-0 finish in the Legacy challenge side event at SCG Madison then got no sleep that night and misplayed terribly all day Sunday and shit the bed at the main eventHrm. Were you the one I played in the final round? I played a mono-Blue deck that survived the first game's Empty the Warrens via Echoing Truth.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Hrm. Were you the one I played in the final round? I played a mono-Blue deck that survived the first game's Empty the Warrens via Echoing Truth.

Yes that was the end of my horrible day at the main SCG event. I fell the the bottom breakers and got blown out back to back by a deck that packed 4x Mindbreak Trap in the side then your deck which for whatever reason had every relevant card possible vs. Belcher including MD Echoing Truths and Patron Wizards.

Anyways obviously I don't ever expect to encounter mono-u Wizards or 4x Mindbreak Trap SBs. The deck is designed against the expected top table metagame meaning Delver decks (mainly Rug and UR since BUG and RUB haven't been showing up), UW and UWx Stoneforge, Sneak & Show, Maverick, and random combo. I feel like if you sat down with my decklist and made a deck specifically to beat me you couldn't have done much better then what you had, at the same time Wizard control isn't exactly in my gauntlet for a reason.

[gregtron]

Yes that was the end of my horrible day at the main SCG event. I fell the the bottom breakers and got blown out back to back by a deck that packed 4x Mindbreak Trap in the side then your deck which for whatever reason had every relevant card possible vs. Belcher including MD Echoing Truths and Patron Wizards.

Anyways obviously I don't ever expect to encounter mono-u Wizards or 4x Mindbreak Trap SBs. The deck is designed against the expected top table metagame meaning Delver decks (mainly Rug and UR since BUG and RUB haven't been showing up), UW and UWx Stoneforge, Sneak & Show, Maverick, and random combo. I feel like if you sat down with my decklist and made a deck specifically to beat me you couldn't have done much better then what you had, at the same time Wizard control isn't exactly in my gauntlet for a reason.

You heard it here, ladies and gentlemen, Wizard Control is coming back!

[dontbiteitholmes]

You heard it here, ladies and gentlemen, Wizard Control is coming back!

Yeah Probably not, at any rate came to several important realizations over the past couple days.

First, the meta is shifting from Show/Tell to Reanimator, which make Telemin Performance underperform. Bribery is just a better wish target since it costs the same mana and always lets me get their GBrand draw 14 and just win. When I put in Telemin I was thinking ANT/TES as well but who is going to play those decks with the current meta?

Second, I want MD disruption vs. counters. Probe is cool, but in the end it either shows me a hand full of stuff I don't care about and I go off, or it shows me counters and I play around them the best I can. Vs. decks without counters I really don't care what's in there hand unless it's discard. Cut Probes, added Veils MD. In early testing I still just crush non-blue decks and get much stronger game vs. blue decks. It can make Reforge just insane vs. decks with counters. It also opens up more SB space, which I have yet to decide how to best utilize.

New list reflected in first post.

[dontbiteitholmes]

There seems to be some interest in the "Black Belcher" list so I'm bumping this to see if I can generate more discussion.

Specifically one post in that thread interested me so I'm partially quoting it here. Keep in mind this was posted in regards to another list so his comments have nothing to do with this specific build. I removed the parts of the post relevant only to the build he was commenting on.


*Snip - text removed*

Finding a better build of Belcher means one of three things.

1) It wins turn 1 more consistently.
2) If the game goes past turn 1, it has a better gameplan than draw-go or falls behind a lot slower than GR Belcher tends to.
3) It can play disruption or protection without sacrificing turn 1 win consistency, or depth beyond turn 1, or both.

*Snip - more text removed*


I couldn't agree more as this was exactly the mindset I developed after working on this build for a while.

In regards to point #1
The truth of the matter is RG Belcher pretty much has things locked up if you are just looking for that glass cannon to fire off turn 1 at an unprepared opponent. So if you are going to aim for point #1 you are usually better off just modifying an existing Belcher list.

In regards to point #2
This was where I concentrated my efforts. I want enough of the explosiveness of the traditional Belcher combo to be able to consistently thrash decks that can't interact with the stack. At the same time I realize sometimes things don't work out exactly as you plan. Many decks right now run disruption and the traditional plan of "hope you draw out of it" isn't good enough for me when things go poorly. Traditional lists usually consist of a very narrow decision tree where you are more often left to rely on luck of the draw as opposed to making the right plays to put you back in the game. This kind of deck doesn't fit my personal play style or idea of what makes a good Legacy deck.

My Belcher version is less explosive turn 1, in exchange it is far more consistent turns 2-infinity. It mulligans far less than standard builds and when it does mulligan those hands are far more keepable. You are far less likely to "fizzle" with this list (a problem I often had with standard lists). When you are disrupted with my list there are FAR more ways to get back into the game than with the usual lists.

In regards to point #3
Since I am not going "ALL IN" on winning turn 1 with this build I am able to run MD disruption vs. blue in the form of Autumn's Veil. I am also able to run cards like Personal Tutor and Reforge the Soul which can allow me to explode into a win at any point of the game, even after massive disruption, and they add more consistency to the deck against non-blue decks where I can usually Reforge at will to ensure blowouts.

I feel like a build similar to this has a lot of potential. It is certainly very unlike the Belcher we know and, ummm, well no one really "loves" traditional Belcher.

So in summary...
1: This build is still very strong vs. non-FoW decks which is Belcher's strongest attribute.
2: At the same time this build is stronger vs. blue decks and decks with heavy disruption (this has shown true time and time again in my testing).
3: This build mulligans less, fizzles less, and is much more consistent overall than standard builds at the cost of less turn 1 explosiveness.

[Vacrix]

I agree about those being important points but another one is where Belcher comes up short the most as a combo deck; the sideboard. It clogs up its board with mostly useless cards that you never wish for. These days, people have diversified their hate to the point at which, your opponents are mulliganing into Leyline of Sanctity and then dropping Thalia in Maverick. Its unrealistic to expect most of the sideboard to do anything when you consider what you give up by having almost nothing to board in against blue.

In PSI, I board in 15 cards. I put most of my control matchups at about 50/50 at the least, usually you have to outplay the opponent. Anyway, Belcher really needs something like this to be more competitive against control in the post-board because Xantid Swarm is complete shit these days with the opponent running more than just 4 Swords to Plowshares and no Merfolk to be seen anywhere. Rather, we deal with 8+ Bolt effects in the maindeck.

I think the best way to go is to drop Burning Wish completely. Its weak.. honestly. It just makes every business spell cost 1R more. Especially in this version of the deck, it has no synergy with PIF at all. I think the best way to configure business in this deck will be something along the lines of..

Business:
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Reforge the Soul
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

14 seemed like a little much. I think 13 is pretty good. The added benefit of Personal Tutor might prove useful more so when you progress to the post-board and get a maindeck toolbox in addition to whatever else you want to board in. Also, with Personal Tutor to work with, Burning Wish is a bit redundant since the you are usually reacting to an opponent's post-board anyway.

Also, this was AGES ago, but a dude at my local store actually played RGu Belcher. He also played a Trop for.... you guessed it. Brainstorm. He might have played a couple other cards. Meditate? Don't know if that was good, but Brainstorm might be. Land Grant and Personal Tutor lets you shuffle kinda like a fetch. Also allows you to set up that Reforge the Soul line of play. I'm actually going to look into this build again for kicks.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I agree about those being important points but another one is where Belcher comes up short the most as a combo deck; the sideboard. It clogs up its board with mostly useless cards that you never wish for. These days, people have diversified their hate to the point at which, your opponents are mulliganing into Leyline of Sanctity and then dropping Thalia in Maverick. Its unrealistic to expect most of the sideboard to do anything when you consider what you give up by having almost nothing to board in against blue.

In PSI, I board in 15 cards. I put most of my control matchups at about 50/50 at the least, usually you have to outplay the opponent. Anyway, Belcher really needs something like this to be more competitive against control in the post-board because Xantid Swarm is complete shit these days with the opponent running more than just 4 Swords to Plowshares and no Merfolk to be seen anywhere. Rather, we deal with 8+ Bolt effects in the maindeck.

I think the best way to go is to drop Burning Wish completely. Its weak.. honestly. It just makes every business spell cost 1R more. Especially in this version of the deck, it has no synergy with PIF at all. I think the best way to configure business in this deck will be something along the lines of..

Business:
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Reforge the Soul
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

14 seemed like a little much. I think 13 is pretty good. The added benefit of Personal Tutor might prove useful more so when you progress to the post-board and get a maindeck toolbox in addition to whatever else you want to board in. Also, with Personal Tutor to work with, Burning Wish is a bit redundant since the you are usually reacting to an opponent's post-board anyway.

Also, this was AGES ago, but a dude at my store actually played RGu Belcher. He also played a Trop for.... you guessed it. Brainstorm. He might have played a couple other cards. Meditate? Don't know if that was good, but Brainstorm might be. Land Grant and Personal Tutor lets you shuffle kinda like a fetch. Also allows you to set up that Reforge the Soul line of play. I'm actually going to look into this build again for kicks.

You should really test my build out. I promise you I spent a hell of a lot of time working on it before I settled on this exact list. My SB could use a little work as it was more of an afterthought when I moved the Veils MD and suddenly had 4 open SB slots and I haven't had free time to reconcile that yet.

Swarm is not optimal, but IMO it is much better than REB which I ALWAYS found lacking. Granted RUG has multiple ways to deal with it but if they can't deal with it you are just going to win and many other blue decks exist which CAN'T deal with it as easily (S&T / Reanimator for instance). People tend to want to mull vs. Belcher for obvious reasons and get a strong clock + counter. If having Swarm means making an opening RUG hand like Daze + Pierce + Stifle + Delver + other stuff but no Bolt a riskier proposition I'm totally fine with that.

My SB is really awkward because I had way more space than I knew what to do with.
Really you are heavily favored vs. non-blue decks even with 4 dead cards main. The only way a non-blue deck is really going to ruin your time g2/g3 is hate cards. I run Personal Tutor so I can switch out some dead cards for anti-hate SB cards when I would normally be siding in/out nothing if I didn't run Veils main. It was either that or add some chaffe to increase turn 1 wins .5%, unless someone else has a better option.

Burning Wish is stellar, it means G2/G3 you don't have to guess what kind of hate they are going to drop against you as you have and answer for everything if it gets that far or just win faster than they can respond. This version of the deck wants Wish that is 100% for sure. If you are going to post a list with Brainstorm please make a different thread as that is going to be a completely different idea than what I'm going for.

Past in Flames is an ancillary card. I just called this thread that because I couldn't think of a better name and I don't care. You don't rely on it and it's synergy with Burning Wish is more or less irrelevant.

[JACO]

Also, this was AGES ago, but a dude at my local store actually played RGu Belcher. He also played a Trop for.... you guessed it. Brainstorm. He might have played a couple other cards. Meditate? Don't know if that was good, but Brainstorm might be. Land Grant and Personal Tutor lets you shuffle kinda like a fetch. Also allows you to set up that Reforge the Soul line of play. I'm actually going to look into this build again for kicks.
If this was at Game Empire in San Diego and the deck was mostly Japanese Foil and foreign, that was probably me. I made a Belcher deck before most people even knew what the card did, and it was the first Belcher deck I ever heard of. I used Brainstorm, Goblin Welder, and Spoils of the Vault (this was before Empty the Warrens and Chrome Mox were printed if I remember correctly). There was a black guy named Jerry who I destroyed a couple of times and he picked up the deck in short order and it became his pet deck after that.

Speaking of that, Spoils of the Vault is mad underplayed in these decks.

[thefringthing]

I used Brainstorm, Goblin Welder, and Spoils of the Vault (this was before Empty the Warrens and Chrome Mox were printed if I remember correctly).You do not remember correctly. Chrome Mox is in the same set as Goblin Charbelcher.

[Vacrix]

If this was at Game Empire in San Diego and the deck was mostly Japanese Foil and foreign, that was probably me. I made a Belcher deck before most people even knew what the card did, and it was the first Belcher deck I ever heard of. I used Brainstorm, Goblin Welder, and Spoils of the Vault (this was before Empty the Warrens and Chrome Mox were printed if I remember correctly). There was a black guy named Jerry who I destroyed a couple of times and he picked up the deck in short order and it became his pet deck after that.

Speaking of that, Spoils of the Vault is mad underplayed in these decks.
Sounds familiar. Jerry was the guy I was referring to, yeah. I stomped him with SI every time I played him but his build was interesting. I just remember him beating up some Tempo players with Brainstorm in Belcher and since then I can't for the life of me remember his build. Do you have a list? I'd be curious to see it, especially when Belcher has access to stuff like PiF and Reforge, and therefore, better targets for Personal Tutor.

[JACO]

You do not remember correctly. Chrome Mox is in the same set as Goblin Charbelcher.Good call. I probably played it then, because I remember having Japanese Foil Chrome Moxes for a reason, and didn't really play them in many other decks.


Sounds familiar. Jerry was the guy I was referring to, yeah. I stomped him with SI every time I played him but his build was interesting. I just remember him beating up some Tempo players with Brainstorm in Belcher and since then I can't for the life of me remember his build. Do you have a list? I'd be curious to see it, especially when Belcher has access to stuff like PiF and Reforge, and therefore, better targets for Personal Tutor.I don't have the list in front of me, but since there was no Empty the Warrens or a million Red Rituals at the time, it basically played a heavier Black and Blue splash. I was switching it up every week, but cards at various times included:
Brainstorm
Meditate
Dark Ritual
Cabal Ritual
Duress
Goblin Welder
Chromatic Star (or whatever the Invasion one is called)
Spoils of the Vault
Plunge into Darkness
Elvish Spirit Guide
Land Grant
Tinder Wall
Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond

And of course it played two non-Taiga duals (Bayou and Tropical Island, which could basically cast everything in the deck except Goblin Welder). It was pretty fast and consistent if you knew how to play the deck. Spoils killed me a very small but non trivial percentage of the time, and generally it was the nuts.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Cool story bros, now stop derailing my fucking thread.

[Koby]

I really like Vacrix's approach with glass cannon builds that utilize Carpet of Flowers in the SB against the hardest matchup (Islands and counters.dec...)

I think the best approach would be somewhere inbetween Belcher and PSI in terms of SB options, while still maintaining RG/x maindeck 1-land configuration.

This is a shot in the dark:

Busy-ness - 13
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Reforge the Soul
1 Past in Flames

Inital Mana Source - 21
4 Land Grant
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Taiga

Subsequent Mana Sources - 18
4 Rite of Flames
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyrrhic Ritual
2 Seething Song
4 LED

Cantrips - 8
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe

Sideboard - 15
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Autumn Veil
1 Taiga
2 Past in Flames
4 Deus of Calamity

[dontbiteitholmes]

I really like Vacrix's approach with glass cannon builds that utilize Carpet of Flowers in the SB against the hardest matchup (Islands and counters.dec...)

I think the best approach would be somewhere inbetween Belcher and PSI in terms of SB options, while still maintaining RG/x maindeck 1-land configuration.

This is a shot in the dark:

Busy-ness - 13
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Reforge the Soul
1 Past in Flames

Inital Mana Source - 21
4 Land Grant
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Taiga

Subsequent Mana Sources - 18
4 Rite of Flames
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyrrhic Ritual
2 Seething Song
4 LED

Cantrips - 8
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe

Sideboard - 15
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Autumn Veil
1 Taiga
2 Past in Flames
4 Deus of Calamity

This is almost exactly the first list I PM'd to Vacrix when we were discussing the list over 2 months ago except with no Burning Wish. My list was...

// Lands
1 [R] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [CST] Tinder Wall

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [ISD] Past in Flames
3 [B] Wheel of Fortune
4 [MM] Land Grant
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [B] Wheel of Fortune
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [PT] Personal Tutor
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 3 [US] Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony

The deck has come a long way since then. The current version (listed in OP) has much better game against decks with disruption.

Note- Obviously Wheel of Fortune = Reforge the Soul which wasn't in MWS database at the time.

[napdragon]

I've actually been working with Reforge the Soul a lot lately. My problem was I never looked past it's miracle cost to realize that you can cast it off of a Seething Song. The issue I ran into in Belcher is that if they didn't have a force in their first draw, they would very likely get in it their next. I think the best build would be a Burning Wish build that can access it from the sideboard. This does up the mana investment a bit, and when you're wishing, you should probably wish into Empty the Warrens or another spell that does something on the spot. Past in Flames is amazing everywhere I've put it. I really do like the inclusion of Personal Tutor, although I'm not sure what to say about it except that. On a more personal note, I've never enjoyed playing Belcher. I love the design of the deck and I love trying to build new parts into it, but come game time, it seems to leave me high and dry more often than not (which is probably play error on my part). I'll have to spend more time with this deck and play it more often at local events.

[Vacrix]

This is almost exactly the first list I PM'd to Vacrix when we were discussing the list over 2 months ago except with no Burning Wish. My list was...

The deck has come a long way since then. The current version (listed in OP) has much better game against decks with disruption.

Note- Obviously Wheel of Fortune = Reforge the Soul which wasn't in MWS database at the time.

Truth. We did speak of this list a while back.

I'm still not sold on BW though. I think its holding back Belcher. Its been a staple for so long that its seems unreasonable to cut.. but it turns on Spell Snare against the deck, you go all in with LED instead of running the extra copy of EtW maindeck. In that sense, it has a slight advantage. Running Reforge... has its drawbacks certainly. but when you run 4, the chances of 'lol Miracles' goes up considerably. I'd say this is also pretty important as well if you want to grind post-board, which I think is the direction this deck ought to take. After playing the grind plan for a solid 2 years, I can say that as I've managed to bring all my control matchups to even or better. Its not a complete blow out like it usually is when Belcher faces down a deck playing Force of Will.

I posted this in the Belcher forum, but this one has a lot better ideas floating around, honestly. People who play Belcher don't really want to innovate; counting to 7 or bust is as easy as it gets.

Post-board -
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Autumn's Veil
2 Recross the Paths
3 Brainstorm
1 Meditate
1 Tropical Island

In regards to playing blue in Belcher.. perhaps its better suited for the post-board. I mentioned Bloodmoon earlier, but it lacks synergy with Carpet of Flowers, which I'd say is a much stronger card overall. Recross the Paths lets you stack your deck if you hit both lands. Trop lets you Brainstorm to throw away stuff you don't want, to follow up with Land Grant (ideally), though it would be nice if this deck had some additional ways to shuffle. Brainstorm also sets up Reforge and can get it out of your hand. Ponder might actually be better simply because you can still set up Reforge if its in the top 3, or you can shuffle, an advantage that Brainstorm lacks. Meditate isn't terrible on its own but its mainly so you can set up a kill with Recross much like a DD pile.


@Koby. Looks pretty solid. I don't know how good Deus is these days though. UW control variants are making something of a comeback. It definitely sick against RUG/UR Tempo though considering Bolt/Chain can't remove it. It might be a niche card for a Tempo metagame. Against the general field, there might be a better business spell to play, also, ideally, an instant or sorcery to amplify the value of PiF.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I see the allure of not running Burning Wish but at this point in the meta I don't think Spell Snare is a valid concern.

[Vacrix]

I see the allure of not running Burning Wish but at this point in the meta I don't think Spell Snare is a valid concern.
Indeed. Honestly it was more of gravy on the argument of opening up your EtW to countermagic (including Snare) instead of just playing the 4th copy of EtW, sideboard space (most of the argument here), as well as serving little utility that the wishboard provides because you 9/10 times wish for EtW and you rarely have a 2nd business spell to play after removing a bear or perma hate, find protection, etc. because the deck only plays so much business anyway.




Also, I've been thinking about running Thrun in the post-board. Its a dam good business spell and trumps Deus of Calamity in almost every way; its uncounterable and it is not easily removed. Carpet would make it easy to cast but it can just as easily be accelerated into and cast with either double green sources or Manamorphose. 4 isn't difficult to get to and a 5 turn clock isn't bad.

[Vacrix]

@don'tbiteitholmes

Dude. Try Defense Grid. I've been testing it in the PSI grind plan. Its fantastic. Its like Xantid Swarm but doesn't die to spot removal. People always expect Xantid and you basically have to get lucky for it to actually be a protection spell.

Also, I'm thinking: your list but with a smaller wishboard. Then you can prepare for your difficult matchup, U.dec, instead of improving that matchups that are already good.

SB:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul

4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Autumn's Veil
2 Defense Grid
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Taiga

Post-board you board in everything but those 3 at the top. Defense Grid and Autumn's Veil are also particularly good at supporting Reforge the Soul as a business spell against U.dec. Having to hit 3 mana just to counter something means Carpet is going to turn on and then you can start grinding. With +3 business spells post-board and +6 protection spells, Carpet becomes pretty strong. Thats 14 business and 6 protection spells for a grand total of 20 must counter spells vs. 11, 3 of which are not counterable. Also, Mirri's Guile sets up Reforge pretty well. Its basically Carpet 2.0

EDIT:
Forgot to mention.. I'm testing your list but -4 Autumn's Veil in the maindeck, +4 Pyretic Ritual