Adapting to Griselbrand-Show and Tell Decks

[xfxf]

Hi everyone,

There has already been some discussion about recent success of these cards but with a focus of ban worthiness. Instead, I'd like to discuss the the possible tools and decks which are best suited against defeating these decks and how we adapt.

Currently the decks aren't dominating the Top 8s but with their power level I'm not sure what's stopping them. Is it just their consistency problem (having one piece and not the other)? Because when you take individual match-ups into consideration they seem to have the upper hand against most of the meta.

Since the most obvious way to deal with a combo deck is a blue control deck I have been playtesting UW Miracle control and BUG control against a stock Sneak & Show list but both control decks are having a hard time dealing with the defense of Sneak & Show. Neither of these decks have enough disruption (or they don't have it early enough) to stop the fatties coming down. Also when the fatty is down both decks have limited ways to deal with it in an effetive way. Sorcery speed Innocent Blood and very topdeck dependent Terminus isn't very reliable to deal with a hasty Emrakul or a Show and Telled Grieselbrand.

When blue control decks fail against combo, I turned to RUG. I would say RUG has an even matchup with these decks and probably has the best chance against them in the format. So we have one contender.

Moving away from blue decks I turn to non-blue fair decks. Obviously Maverick is not the best choice to combat these decks. I don't know much about decks like Nic Fit, maybe someone can share their experiences if their non-blue decks have favorable Sneak & Show match-ups. At yesterday's SCG MUD decimated a Hypergenesis deck but I'm not sure if the same mechanics would apply against Sneak Attack...

The third option is other combo decks. Successful combo deck of the past couple months, Spiral Tide, has an unfavourable match-up since Sneak & Show has as much counters with a faster kill. I'm not sure how Storm and Dredge matchups play out, so again I am looking for some feedback from the community.

All in all, we usually have heated debates about bans and adapting to metagames etc. so let's get some discussion going if current decks can fight the Grieselbrand menace or if under the radar decks can rise up to the challange. Is it possible to adapt and what's the best tools this format can offer for this.

Discuss.

[Esper3k]

As someone who is currently playing Sneaky Show, I fear Maverick decks more than I fear RUG Tempo myself.

Against RUG Tempo, you just have to force through a Show & Tell or Sneak Attack and you've pretty much won the game.

Maverick pretty much shuts off your Show & Tell answer due to having 4x Knight + Karakas. Thalia also slows you down and keeps you from going off as quickly. Even tapping out for a Sneak Attack can be dangerous because of Pridemages.

This isn't even considering cards dedicated to fight Sneaky Show decks.

Just my $0.02.

[frogczar]

I'd like to see more threads like this before I see threads demanding bans.

However, I feel Show and Tell has really gone on too long without a ban. The card is broken. Too broken, even for Legacy.

That being said, since there are people who somehow don't agree, what can we do? This thread.

Personally I think it's time more people abused Humility. Outside of counter magic, it's one of the ways to deal with ridiculous combo/creatures.

I'm thinking counter-thopter-humility control. I'll need to look around at some lists, I'm sure there out there.

[Einherjer]

I left SneakAttack a few days ago, because I was unsure about Show and Tell getting banned or not. Ofc I didn't move to a deck that cannot deal with SneakAttack if it shouldnt get banned, and I believe it's not banworthy yet. Like you, I tried UW Miracle and BUG Control but wasn't too satisfied either. But there are 3 Decks that have a slightly positiv - positiv MU against SneakShow.

1) BUG TeamAmerica:
Resource denial, Discard, Countermagic, fast creatures. Its a hard MU for SneakShow but it's a rarely played deck.
2) LED-Dredge:
This deck is simply stronger and only loses to the Spell Pierce, Force, Force hand of SneakAttack. If they do not counter that much Dredge pretty much wins G1 because a dropped Grisel/Emra means NOTHING. Postboard is strongly dependent on the personal skill of the Dredge-player.
3) Last but not least the deck I turned to, when leaving SneakAttack. Its an Esper-Terminator.dec. I am not completly sure if this is the optimal way, as a UWB EnlightenedCounterThopter is still in testing and looks promising aswell. But my UWB Terminator is featuring Thoughtseizes and Lilianas in addition to the normal UW Terminator. Postboard, I bring, in addition to Needle/Canonist some Extirpates and one or 2 more pieces of Discard.

Even though I am not saying that this deck RULE SneakAttack they have a pretty good chance of winning vs them, while still having a fair range of MUs around the meta.

I was hating the Maverick-MU aswell when I played SneakAttack. It's tough and not a bad choice - but the upcoming Terminator-decks rule Maverick kind of hard... The RUG vs SneakAttack is highly skilldependent (of the RUG player obv. )

Greetings

[xfxf]

If Maverick is that strong against Sneak&Show why isn't it putting up much better results? Since it has a favourable match-up against RUG as well it would have been in much better position but both the past few SCGs and BOM didn't see Maverick perform well. I think Maverick is very prone to random blow outs such as Show and Tell -> Griselbrand-> x cards, trump your Karakas with the Sneak Attack and Emrakul's annihilator trigger drawn of the demon.

BUG control seem strong on paper but it lacks a density of answers. I don't know how to explain it really but you have to play the deck a bit to see that Turn 1 Kozilek while also holding a Pierce isn't that backbreaking when you don't put pressure on the board. The deck certainly have the tools but somehow feels weak assembling all the right answers at the right moment.

I'm still hopefull about a well tuned UW-Miracle deck though. Humility is certainly good albeit slow. As BUG control, UW has the tools but needs more consistency to find those tools as needed. A Teminus without Brainstorm, a Humility a turn too late, Snapcaster + Swords when facing an Emrakul... These scenarios are very common and I feel I'd rather play RUG (which is what I'm doing at the moment :smile:).

[Tacosnape]

Let's talk about the Hypergenesis deck. Two days ago I posted on Facebook that I'd bet anyone who wanted to that Hypergenesis would top 8. People asked me why, and I explained how stupid Shardless Agent was for two reasons:

1. Running 3 Colors in the deck instead of a bad manabase. UGR with 8 Spirit Guides was now possible.
2. Ethersworn Canonist no longer stops the combo.

Lo and behold, my old friend Todd Anderson does just that, even improving on my hypothetical notepad list by running Maelstrom Wanderer just for haste/instablicking. (I still think he should have run Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, though)

This deck will by no means replace Sneak Attack/Show, because it's easier to hate out the non Show and Tell half (Chalice of the Void for 0 does it, and every deck can run that), and the deck has less ways to actually find the Show and Tell. But now there's a fourth Show and Tell deck rocking the format.

So once again, I think my point becomes - How does every deck stop THE CARD Show and Tell, and not what the Show and Tell is going to drop?

[I am the brainwasher]

So once again, I think my point becomes - How does every deck stop THE CARD Show and Tell, and not what the Show and Tell is going to drop?

The main problem of the card is that it is non-interactive by itself. No Hatebear or cards that were printed to outweigh combo-decks somehow are effective at beating Show and Tell - based Combo.
Thalia might be vexing by itself here and there but the only "real" answer to beat those decks reliable is Disruption either in the form of discard-effects or counter-magic, while the 1st option is not as effective as the latter.

Till the card gets banned, I'd recommend playing a Tropical Island in Maverick for sideboard Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce and add up the number of Karakas in all decks playing those (which also improves other MU's since a lot of decks run the card as a 1-off currently).
When Hypergenesis turns out to be a real contender, I would add Dueling Grounds to some sideboards, which is pretty much game in combination with Karakas and is pretty effective against Dredge and any other deck when you combine it with Maze of Ith.
Since Angel of Despair and stuff could be added to those, I am unsure how effective the card is in that particular MU, but that is undecided yet.
The problem I see is that if there is a variety of decks abusing S&T, it is quite impossible to have all the answers in your board to adapt to any of those, since they all need different ways to deal with, which then somewhat requires you to run counter-magic, which is the general answer to all sort of different approaches of combo.
Leyline of Sanctity is a real card and is propably the easiest include to avoid sacc. effects and discard, which limits solutions in addition.
IMHO, the best way to deal with the majority of the format beeing counter-magic, is alarming.
In pure numbers, the number of Aggro-decks (and a variety within those) has decreased dramatically over the last year and I can see a real mess happening if this goes on for quite some time. I only hope that a misinterpretation from the DCI won't lead to bans that will lead to the format becoming a Vintage-esque ghost town.

[xfxf]

So once again, I think my point becomes - How does every deck stop THE CARD Show and Tell, and not what the Show and Tell is going to drop?

We are trying to deal with what Show and Tell drops actually, not Show and Tell itself. Prior to Griselbrand ,Show and Tell would drop Emrakul, Progenitus, Hive Mind etc. The meta can deal with those without changing and shifting too much. The draw 7-14 is what crushes the other decks now. Emrakul becomes more effective because of that draw 7. Because of that additional card advantage it can come into play protected and hasty with increased consistency. If it was Progenitus being dropped I would still rock a Batterskull so I could race the damn Hydra. But please, let's not turn this thread into "which one is more ban worthy".

[wizard_of_gore]

tacosnape, what are you thoughts about hypergenesis as viable and playable deck if show and tell gets axe ?

[wcm8]

Show and Tell has to be fought on the stack. Discard is simply not good enough alone, as these decks run a high density of filter/Brainstorm/Intuition. I've tested BUG and RUG, and hybridizing the two into a Grixis list gives you the strongest anti-combo deck available. However, in doing so you become much, much weaker to everything else in the field.

Right now, RUG has the best shot at beating these decks while not being a complete dog to the rest of the tier 1/2, but it still needs to go slightly overboard on the SB to more consistently beat them. Some combination of REB and Flusterstorm will help alongside maindeck Spell Pierce's, and I've also seen lists including Gilded Drake/Sower of Temptation as a hedge against a resolved Show and Tell. If Griselbrand/Emrakul land, the game is over. They are also often SBing into Blood Moon, which is another auto-win card which needs to be fought on the stack.

I suppose Meddling Mage could make a come-back in Bant/UW/Esper lists, but that isn't really that great since they can still land the other piece of the combo.

[Esper3k]

Yeah, I think dealing with Show & Tell itself isn't really that difficult. Red decks all have access to REB/Pyroblast. Black decks have access to discard (make them discard the S&T or discard the creature). Blue decks have countermagic and Vendilion Cliques (clique you in response to Show & Tell!).

Honestly, GW decks shouldn't have that many answers to combo, but as pointed out above, Maverick actually has a much better game than GW deck should honestly expect to have.

To me, the issue is not necessarily dealing with Show & Tell itself, but that cards that deal with Show & Tell don't deal with what it drops if it happens to resolve.

So you pretty much just pick your poison - try and deal with Show & Tell or try and deal with what it drops.

Honestly, that's just the nature of combo though. Storm combo is usually like that - you typically have to deal with one key spell. On the spectrum of combo decks, I see Show & Tell just as slower but more resilient than other combo like Storm based decks.

[Tacosnape]

I think WCM8's got my point. It's extremely difficult to fight what Show and Tell's going to drop, because there's so many different things it CAN drop. And the best way to fight Show and Tell is indeed while it's on the stack. If you prepare to stop the targets, you can get lucky and face the right targets all day, but you won't always.

Meddling Mage is also a pretty effective answer, but it suffers the same problem that all 2-drop hatebears do in the format - If you go second, sometimes you can't get them down fast enough. I'd pack Cavern/Tropical/Mage in Maverick right now without hesitation, though.

At some point, though, you have to take note that most of the best answers to the card itself are Blue. So Show and Tell's blue, and decks that beat it are blue. And people wonder why Brainstorm and Force of Will are all over top 8's.

As for Hypergenesis's viability without Show and Tell? Sketchy. You have to have the second plan, I think, or Hypergenesis just turns into Dredge/Affinity and is only as good as the lack of preparation for it. Chalice for 0 shuts off Hypergenesis. It's a card that any deck can play and without Show and Tell becomes extremely difficult for Hypergenesis to stop. So at that point, without Show and Tell, you have to decide what route to go. Do you try to play Bloodbraid Elf? Eureka? Sneak Attack?

The deck's still a deck without Show and Tell, but not nearly as good.

[Worldslayer]

We are trying to deal with what Show and Tell drops actually, not Show and Tell itself.

That's part of your problem right there, I think. If you stop SnT, it doesn't matter what they drop. It doesn't even matter what SnT variant they're on, as outside of Hypergenesis they all operate on the same premise of "SnT -> Win counter war -> Cheat". Typically, anytime you want to beat an unfair linear deck like combo, cheap disruption and a quick clock get it done. Modern RUG lists can probably adapt fairly easily anytime they want to, though BUG has always been my standby for beating up broken. Typically something like 5 discard (4 seize and an inquisition seem fine in the current legacy meta), your own forces and something like 3-6 additional counters (pierces in a wide open meta, daze in a more tempocentric one, flusterstorm in a show and tell / storm heavy field). Few removal spells, snapcaster, goyf, lilliana, draw spells. You could probably even play delvers. Team America is in the right colors but trying to play the wrong game anymore, so applying a leaner meaner curve and actually adapting concepts to what's going on would probably yield much better results than still leaning on something like Tombstalker, for example.

Alternatively, if you're in a smaller field and it's just absolutely cluttered with show and tell decks, something like Aeon Bridge would be an excellent way to steal their thunder. This sort of reeks of "if you can't beat them, join them" but the reality is much closer to "if you're too lazy to beat them, then the hell with it".

[Sloshthedark]

Pithing needle is underplayed, anything adapted to Ensnaring Bridges

so Thresh is best deck against Sneak attack? sad .. ok, theoretically Thresh can deal with any deck if you hit right cards.. but still the archetype seems overrated

[Esper3k]

I, for one, am glad to see more decks rising to the top instead of the pure Canadian / Maverick grind...

[KevinTrudeau]

Ethersworn Canonist no longer stops the combo.

Ethersworn Canonist's efficacy versus Hypergenesis has not changed at all because of the new decklist presented at the last SCG Open. Show and Tell has been in that deck for years now, and even if the opponent casts S&T instead of EOT Outburst or the new 3 CMC cascade dude, they can't cast one of their seven-eight free counterspells to protect it. Canonist should most certainly be the current hatebear of choice (or Thalia if possible) in any deck running white.

[Esper3k]

Ethersworn Canonist's efficacy versus Hypergenesis has not changed at all because of the new decklist presented at the last SCG Open. Show and Tell has been in that deck for years now, and even if the opponent casts S&T instead of EOT Outburst or the new 3 CMC cascade dude, they can't cast one of their seven free counterspells to protect it. Canonist should most certainly be the current hatebear of choice (or Thalia if possible) in any deck running white.

Canonist is less effective because they can use the new 2/2 cascade guy to get around it.

However, it's still really good against them because of all the other times they don't have that guy (as well as what you pointed out that they can't protect it with countermagic even if they use the cascade guy to cast Hypergenesis under Canonist).

[Koby]

I would start any deck in this metagame with 4 Spell Pierce. That stops the multitude of Show & Tell, Cascade, and Sneak Attack strategies. I would also play a deck with access to Karakas, and likely Force of Will as well.

This leaves relatively few options remaining:


UW mid-range/control - akin to Terminator and/or ETutor control
Bant/Blue Maverick - lots of strengths
Esper control - losing favor due to slowness of Lingering Souls and SFM, but hand disruption helps out


This is all from the perspective of beating the spells that cheat fatties into play. There is also the option of stopping combat altogether:

Peacekeeper
Humility
Ensnaring Bridge
Elephant Grass !!!
Propaganda / Ghostly Prison

These are vulnerable to permanent hate/bounce, but if you're playing with protection that shouldn't be too bad.

[Koby]

Ethersworn Canonist's efficacy versus Hypergenesis has not changed at all because of the new decklist presented at the last SCG Open. Show and Tell has been in that deck for years now, and even if the opponent casts S&T instead of EOT Outburst or the new 3 CMC cascade dude, they can't cast one of their seven-eight free counterspells to protect it. Canonist should most certainly be the current hatebear of choice (or Thalia if possible) in any deck running white.

Mana Maze shuts off Hypergenesis from the new builds - both Cascaders are :g:.

[KevinTrudeau]

Canonist is less effective because they can use the new 2/2 cascade guy to get around it.

However, it's still really good against them because of all the other times they don't have that guy (as well as what you pointed out that they can't protect it with countermagic even if they use the cascade guy to cast Hypergenesis under Canonist).

Haha, didn't realize the new guy (Shardless Agent) was an artifact creature. I should really learn to think before posting.

[Esper3k]

Haha, didn't realize the new guy (Shardless Agent) was an artifact creature. I should really learn to think before posting.

I thought it was a really nice addition to Hypergenesis, but Canonist is still really amazing against them.

[Worldslayer]

so Thresh is best deck against Sneak attack?

Thresh is the least bad deck against sneak attack. Saying Thresh can beat something if it wants to (read: is constructed to) and draws right is kind of like saying that you get wet when you go swimming: that's kind of the whole premise behind it.



Back to the original post: what's stopping them is that they're a linear combo deck: if their pieces get out of order then they die. If they go up against another deck from comboland and (lose the die roll / draw wrong / the other deck is faster or better) they die. If someone knows of their existence and decided they wanted to beat them, they die. They're on the outside looking in metagame-wise: while the core of Legacy's metagame is defined by people playing decks that can beat anything if they want to, things like SnT and Dredge can beat EVERYTHING, but only if nobody wanted to beat them. It's a big giant "roll the dice" scenario, and one im fond of. Pick a deck like this and you're going in saying "if I hit this match and this, and this, and avoid that, then I win. If I don't, I probably lose. There's very little one of us can do about it in either case".

[ThomasDowd]

Pretty sure most of the time the problem is the functional yawgmoth's bargain(banned) they reprinted, whcih is also a threat on its own that can end the game, and gains you the life back that you paid. before griselbrand, no one cared and dismissed sneak show as an inconsistent tier 1.5 at best combo deck. they just couldn't have enough protection or, they would blow their load on a sneaked in emrakul and have to find the second one before their opponent stabilized. they just had a hard time assembling enough threats to end the game, now they can refill on demand and then just kill you the next turn.


other than that if you want to fight it with countermagic you need at least two (ideally hard) counters since most of the time the sneak show decks will go off with minimum one piece of protection and if they are smart, being able to pay for your spell pierce. oh did i mention their protection is pretty much all free?

discard is probably ok. since they kind of need a somewhat critical mass of cards.

gilded drake/sower are pretty bad against griselbrand since they can just repsond to the trigger with an activation, and will probably justlegend rule your copy the next turn. and those only answer show and tell.

pithing needle is probably good since it comes down on the first few turns and you can name griselbrand/ sneak attack and it also has applications in other matchups. but i still think it does not do enough.

whoever decided to unleash yawgmoth's bargain back into the world and it would be safe was not thinking it all the way through for eternal formats.

but hey the casual market is what wizards primarily cares about these days since thats how they make their money and man oh man is griselbrand a good demon.

agree with koby on being able to play spell pierce right now since the format is very spell heavy

also the deck can be clunky and you lose to variance a lot, but hey, welcome to magic.

[edgarps22]

Pretty sure most of the time the problem is the functional yawgmoth's bargain(banned) they reprinted, whcih is also a threat on its own that can end the game, and gains you the life back that you paid. before griselbrand, no one cared and dismissed sneak show as an inconsistent tier 1.5 at best combo deck. they just couldn't have enough protection or, they would blow their load on a sneaked in emrakul and have to find the second one before their opponent stabilized. they just had a hard time assembling enough threats to end the game, now they can refill on demand and then just kill you the next turn.


other than that if you want to fight it with countermagic you need at least two (ideally hard) counters since most of the time the sneak show decks will go off with minimum one piece of protection and if they are smart, being able to pay for your spell pierce. oh did i mention their protection is pretty much all free?

discard is probably ok. since they kind of need a somewhat critical mass of cards.

gilded drake/sower are pretty bad against griselbrand since they can just repsond to the trigger with an activation, and will probably justlegend rule your copy the next turn. and those only answer show and tell.

pithing needle is probably good since it comes down on the first few turns and you can name griselbrand/ sneak attack and it also has applications in other matchups. but i still think it does not do enough.

whoever decided to unleash yawgmoth's bargain back into the world and it would be safe was not thinking it all the way through for eternal formats.

but hey the casual market is what wizards primarily cares about these days since thats how they make their money and man oh man is griselbrand a good demon.

agree with koby on being able to play spell pierce right now since the format is very spell heavy

also the deck can be clunky and you lose to variance a lot, but hey, welcome to magic.

The thing is He really isn't Bargain. If you have any experience with Bargain you would understand that 7 life chunks is VASTLY inferior to 1 life at a time. I can stop at 3 life and kill you with bargain, if I don't hit what I need in the first 2 chunks, or if dear god they dropped Sower/Drake, or they have burn to finish, removal etc, Griselbrand has a hard time being awesome. This is very evident against Maverick and RUG Delver. If your opponent has Drake or Sower, wow that can be a blowout. Yeah you might get your draws, but so do they, and they get to swing with him ... WOW that is a big shift. Chances are you will hit another piece or two, they will hit removal and enough protection to stop you from doing anything.

Bargain basically means instant win, Griselbrand there are answers for, and Sower/Drake might be some extremely good ones to start packing now that I really think about how that would work out, as a S&T player do you really want to give Grisel to a RUG player?

[Zinch]

gilded drake/sower are pretty bad against griselbrand since they can just repsond to the trigger with an activation, and will probably justlegend rule your copy the next turn. and those only answer show and tell.


I don't agree with this at all.

Ok, they can draw 7 in response (14 will put them on a high high risk of dying next turn), but you can do the same and you then still have griselbrand in play. If you have Gilded drake/sower in your deck, chances are you are playing blue... you should draw some counterspells on those 14 cards...

This doesn't solve neither sneak attack nor the fact that you are using blue to solve the S&T issue, however...

[Telperion]

Did some testing with Eric Fry's Metalworker list and it is quite favored versus Sneak Attack:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46654
This deck was beautifully metagamed, and has a ton of complete blow out spells. Take note of the 3 Ensnaring Bridge, 4 Phyrexian Revoker, and 3 Duplicants. It's a shame he had such a terrible draw in the finals.

Makes me wonder if one of the better avenues for the aggro decks is to play more acceleration. Is it time for moxes/spirit guides in mainstream builds? Have we gotten too comfortable in one land per turn, let's trade one for one mode?

[edgarps22]

His bad draws are the reason i played a UR version of the deck for the longest time. Welder and Fact or Fiction was extremely good at making it more consistent, but I do like how it is built. Duplicant is very powerful, and if you have an active welder, it just gets silly. I ran a more Staxish version, with Wires and Winter Orbs etc, a more aggro version could be better today for sure.

[Koby]

His bad draws are the reason i played a UR version of the deck for the longest time. Welder and Fact or Fiction was extremely good at making it more consistent, but I do like how it is built. Duplicant is very powerful, and if you have an active welder, it just gets silly. I ran a more Staxish version, with Wires and Winter Orbs etc, a more aggro version could be better today for sure.

I would even recommend Forbidden Alchemy for being Sol-land castable while giving you the flexibility to take what you want and setting up Welder shenanigans.

[Telperion]

Does anyone have any good statistics on the effectiveness of stifle? Anecdotally, I see a lot of blow outs on videos/reports of fetches getting stifled, ponder getting dazed, waste your lone sol land etc. I don't know if people actually get to live the dream that often (stifle Griselbrand/annihilator), but I do know that RUG's soft counters often buy it an extra turn against Sneak Attack hands.

[Tacosnape]

Mana Maze doesn't do enough compared to just Chalice of the Void for 0. Here's why Mana Maze will backfire on you.

1. If you have Mana Maze out, and your opponent plays Show and Tell, you can't counter it.

2. If your opponent plays Violent Outburst and is holding a Force of Will, they can respond to their own Violent Outburst with Force. This will not only keep the Cascade trigger going, it will again shut you off of your ability to counter the spell.

If you want to stop Hypergenesis, play Meddling Mage or Chalice of the Void. Or a ton of countermagic. Cards like Thalia and Canonist are still okay, but not the firm stop that these other cards are.

You also have to be aware how insanely regularly Hypergenesis now goes off on turn 2. Better manabases = less durdling = less time for you to get a CMC 2 hatebear down.

Maverick players ought to start looking at Mox Diamond for turn one Thalias at this point.

[KevinTrudeau]

2. If your opponent plays Violent Outburst and is holding a Force of Will, they can respond to their own Violent Outburst with Force. This will not only keep the Cascade trigger going, it will again shut you off of your ability to counter the spell.

Minor nitpick (if I'm not mistaken)— you need two Forces or a Force and a Misdirection for this to work against non-Stifle countermagic. Outburst gets cast; cascade triggers. In order for the Hypergenesis that cascade will fetch up and attempt to cast to resolve, you must cast a nongreen spell, so you Force the Outburst (this prevents Stifle from affecting thangs). Cascade resolves; you cast Hypergenesis. Unless you have another castable blue spell in hand to proactively "counter" other forms of countermagic before passing priority (the second Force or a Misdirection targeting the Force already on the stack), the opponent can just cast a basically uncounterable counterspell targeting Hypergenesis.

Another card Maverick players can run (a card I've been playing as a two-of for quite some time in my Maverick list) that has applications against the card Hypergenesis is Orim's Chant/Silence.

[Koby]

Maverick players ought to start looking at Mox Diamond for turn one Thalias at this point.

I would consider Elvish Spirit Guide before Mox Diamond; especially in Fauna Shaman builds.

[Worldslayer]

This doesn't solve...the fact that you are using blue to solve the S&T issue, however...

Show and tell is a combo card, in a combo deck. In ThomasDowd's post a few above this one, you can summarize the whole thing with:

When [the combo deck] resolves its [key card/engine] it [will probably kill you more often than not]. You want [some number of counterspells, hard counters are more effective]. They will [usually have at least one piece of disruption, most likely cheap or free].

Discard is less effective than counterspells, but still effective, because they need [several pieces and/or a critical mass of cards] to [play effectively / kill you].

There are [a host of other playable cards] with [niche uses in the matchup] that are [less effective than counterspells and / or discard].

[Combo decks are unfair].

[Combo decks will occasionally collapse upon themselves thanks to variance], but hey, welcome to [combo].

I'm not really sure what anyone wants, here. It's a combo deck, and outside of the freak Belcher top 8 SnT combo is the only one still placing at all regularly now that RUG has effectively hated storm away forever. As a combo deck, it dies to cheap or free disruption and a clock. Your g/w maverick-esque deck is a dog to it because it's supposed to be a dog to it. That's the price you pay for having a much better matchup vs. Tempo. If you were better against the fair decks than tempo, and better against the unfair decks too, then there isn't a reason to play tempo because you've got more bases covered. Blue fights broken. Other colors fight blue and/or fair. If you want to beat combo play blue, black, or both. If you want to beat THOSE guys, don't, but then you have a bad combo matchup. What's hard about this?

[Koby]

What's hard about this?

Finding 75 cards that beat everything. The obvious solution is play 240 and play everything.

[Arianrhod]

Or rather finding 75 cards that are at least competitive against everything.

Also, I still say that a lot of the complaining accompanying Sneak/Show is the psychology -- it's an absolutely atrocious deck to lose to, and it doesn't usually even feel good to beat it.

[Worldslayer]

Finding 75 cards that beat everything. The obvious solution is play 240 and play everything.

The best example of "if you draw the right half of your deck, you win" ever. Except maybe it's the right quarter, here.

"Alright. So he's on show and tell. If I can pull the counters from the RUG 60, it'll buy time for Knight of the Reliquary to come down and get karakas. Unless I have my lim dul's vault, in which case ill knight for mosswort bridge, vault, hide emrakul then put in dreadnaught when he show and tells, blank his emrakul plan and take a time walk. I can use my enlightened tutor to go find battle of wits, then I just win."

Besides, if you want to beat "everything", you're either playing a degenerate, bannable combo deck (see: long.dec, hulk flash in vintage) or you managed to pick a combo deck the field wasn't ready for (read: forgot about) and they couldn't stop your cheatyface rampage.

Honestly the four deck mashup sounds like a blast.

[Koby]

The best example of "if you draw the right half of your deck, you win" ever. Except maybe it's the right quarter, here.

"Alright. So he's on show and tell. If I can pull the counters from the RUG 60, it'll buy time for Knight of the Reliquary to come down and get karakas. Unless I have my lim dul's vault, in which case ill knight for mosswort bridge, vault, hide emrakul then put in dreadnaught when he show and tells, blank his emrakul plan and take a time walk. I can use my enlightened tutor to go find battle of wits, then I just win."

Besides, if you want to beat "everything", you're either playing a degenerate, bannable combo deck (see: long.dec, hulk flash in vintage) or you managed to pick a combo deck the field wasn't ready for (read: forgot about) and they couldn't stop your cheatyface rampage.

Honestly the four deck mashup sounds like a blast.

My favorite "quarter" is the CB/top part that also Etutors -> Humility. Also 100% immune to High Tide decks.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Know what no Show and Tell creature can beat? Zur the enchanter (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12181-Deck-Zur) (Zur the enchanter).

Running things like Oblivion Ring can always help as well, granted it won't provide the best answer if they drop grisel and draw 7, but sometimes the best way to fight combo style decks is with a lot of little things impeding their progress and not just 1 big "screw you" card.

[Worldslayer]

Or rather finding 75 cards that are at least competitive against everything

Those decks already exist.

You're on u/w/x stoneforge or r/u/g thresh. Most generalized answers in countermagic, most generalized but effective offense in goyf/ooze and delver, or stoneforge -> batterskull.

Success!

[Esper3k]

Those decks already exist.

You're on u/w/x stoneforge or r/u/g thresh. Most generalized answers in countermagic, most generalized but effective offense in goyf/ooze and delver, or stoneforge -> batterskull.

Success!

^^^ This.

Again, Maverick has better game against a lot of combo decks (especially with Thalia now) than one would really expect from a GW deck.

[Einherjer]

When you beat SneakAttack with Stoneforge - Email me.

[joemauer]

Finding 75 cards that beat everything. The obvious solution is play 240 and play everything.

Time to start tuning my battle of the wits deck for the current meta.

Opponent plays Show and Tell, I lay down Battle of the Wits for an auto win!

[Worldslayer]

When you beat SneakAttack with Stoneforge - Email me.

Shouldn't really matter what your color combination on the offensive side of the deck is - you're winning off of the blue part. Stoneforge is probably less good in the matchup than something like RUG, but if you're declaring it nearly unwinnable either you're running not enough of or the wrong counterspell package, or misevaluating what you're doing or, if you're the sneak deck, then they are.
Especially postboard, i'm not sure how sneakshow ever beats flusterstorms, snapcasters, and some way to stop a sneak attack. It almost doesn't matter what u/w's clock is as long as it's 4+ damage, because they shouldn't ever be resolving a spell passed t1 show and tell -> force backup, which any noncombo deck in the format probably can't beat and even combo's going to struggle with on the draw.




@joemauer: if you do that, take a picture and post it here. We'll love you forever.

[Pippin]

This is all from the perspective of beating the spells that cheat fatties into play. There is also the option of stopping combat altogether:

Peacekeeper
Humility
Ensnaring Bridge
Elephant Grass !!!
Propaganda / Ghostly Prison

These are vulnerable to permanent hate/bounce, but if you're playing with protection that shouldn't be too bad.


Not sure if this has already been covered, but out of those options - only Humility is the one that could work. Everything else allows Griselbrand to draw 14 cards and get the necessary bounce + counter backup.

[KevinTrudeau]

@joemauer: if you do that, take a picture and post it here. We'll love you forever.

Show and Tell-> opposing Battle of Wits happened at an SCG Open a while back, actually. I don't remember which one it was, but I'm sure you can find it very easily if you look it up.

[Koby]

Not sure if this has already been covered, but out of those options - only Humility is the one that could work. Everything else allows Griselbrand to draw 14 cards and get the necessary bounce + counter backup.

I'm not doubting that case. Right now, none of these have been seeing play which makes Sneak Show cake-walk over the metagame. The only consideration from Sneak Show is a cursory 3x Bounce spell against possibility of Humility.

[xfxf]

First of all I don't think anyone is trying to find the 75 which beats everything. Since an above average strategy recently started climbing up the tiers with a new set, it's fun to discuss strategies to beat it. That's why we play the game right?

As for beating Show and Tell on the stack, I don't think it's the most viable way. Because most of the time the deck will have a single counter and even if you beat it with your double counter hand it can cast another enabler next turn and end it right there. It's not like the combo turn of High Tide, when you disrupt the killing blow it's very hard for them to muster enough resources to pull it off again. But Sneak & Show just needs 1 card to attempt to "go off".

I think that's why classic control decks aren't doing well against it. Sitting tight for a while and winning a single counter war isn't enough. You have to be beating the deck meanwhile.

Also about the blue complaints which I read along the comments. Sneak&Show players themselves say that Maverick is scarier than RUG yet you guys still complain about Brainstorm. There's also the MUD. Don't know what to say honestly.. :eyebrow:

[catmint]

Been playing Sneak & Show since Griselbrand is out a ton and I can safely say most of the people are wrong thinking that "blue" (aka counterspells) is the solution to beat Sneak & Show. Sneak has way too many effective ways to counter back.

Here is the positioning of the top tiers.

- RUG is a slight dog and cannot adapt easily. Playskill is key: Fast damage + mana disrupt/countering cantrips - do usually not wait for the "big counterwar".

- Maverick puts up a very good fight with the current 75. Sneak&Show can hate on that very well, but also Maverick can adapt/increase the hate.

- UW is best positioned to hate out sneak&show. Canonist blanks 100% of Sneaks protection + Oblivion Ring, E. Tutor, Terminus, Pithing Needle, Vendilion Clique, Jace,...

Decks that are well positioned against Sneak&Show but struggle in general:

- Team America (obviously)

- counter top thopters (ensnaring bridge & Humility)

- Elves

Sneak&Show is aware of a bad Dredge & Reanimator MU and packs a lot of hate to make the overall matchup positive.

[Gheizen64]

If only runeflare trap costed 0 for its trap cost and were uncounterable...

[Koby]

If only runeflare trap costed 0 for its trap cost and were uncounterable...

Funny you mention... I was thinking that this card would be awful to play against with the Sneak Show deck. Until you remember that most Sneak Show lists still run Misdirection, and Runeflare Trap is targeted.

[aaronm678]

Shouldn't really matter what your color combination on the offensive side of the deck is - you're winning off of the blue part. Stoneforge is probably less good in the matchup than something like RUG, but if you're declaring it nearly unwinnable either you're running not enough of or the wrong counterspell package, or misevaluating what you're doing or, if you're the sneak deck, then they are.
Especially postboard, i'm not sure how sneakshow ever beats flusterstorms, snapcasters, and some way to stop a sneak attack. It almost doesn't matter what u/w's clock is as long as it's 4+ damage, because they shouldn't ever be resolving a spell passed t1 show and tell -> force backup, which any noncombo deck in the format probably can't beat and even combo's going to struggle with on the draw.




@joemauer: if you do that, take a picture and post it here. We'll love you forever.

You're definitely living in magic Christmasland here - I'm not saying the matchup is impossible, but U/W has such a slow clock that it's not that difficult for them to overload your counter magic - sneak/show runs a lot more hand sculpting than UW, and they can typically just sit there for 5 turns and find the perfect 8 cards.

[CorpT]

Playing Sword of Fire and Ice can really speed up your clock.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Maverick can adapt to beat Show and Tell if that is a problem. The deck could easily go back to the E Tutor plan and just Tutor up Humility (which also is a pretty good plan against HGenesis). Looking at the recent top 8ing Show decks they typically run between 0 and 3 bounce spells with what looks to be an average of between one and two. Teeg shuts off Sneak and Breach and once again we are talking maybe 2ish answers if he lands in their whole deck. Combine that with things like Thalia, Knights->Karakas, Pridemage, and it doesn't seem too bad a matchup.

[damionblackgear]

I think I'm missing something here. Hand disruption has been the best. It's far more threatening to Show and Tell decks. Do you care about it what they play if they don't have a relevant card in hand? Thoughtseize and Vendilion Clique are great answers for the card. Who cares if they have Grislebrand in their 75 if he never hits play?

[Pippin]

I think I'm missing something here. Hand disruption has been the best far more threatening to Show and Tell decks. Do you care about it what they play if they don't have a relevant card in hand? Thoughtseize and Vendilion Clique are great answers for the card. Who cares if they have Grislebrand in their 75 if he never hits play?

This is my experience as well. Discard works best, and if it's coupled with a clock it's often enough.

As for this:


Maverick can adapt to beat Show and Tell if that is a problem. The deck could easily go back to the E Tutor plan and just Tutor up Humility (which also is a pretty good plan against HGenesis). Looking at the recent top 8ing Show decks they typically run between 0 and 3 bounce spells with what looks to be an average of between one and two. Teeg shuts off Sneak and Breach and once again we are talking maybe 2ish answers if he lands in their whole deck. Combine that with things like Thalia, Knights->Karakas, Pridemage, and it doesn't seem too bad a matchup.

That may have been the case before Griselbrand, but with him in the spotlight everything has changed. Knight + Karakas is suddenly only a fog effect, and can't do anything against draw 14. Teeg shuts of Sneak Attack, but doesn't stop Show and Tell into Sneak Attack. 1 Humility is nothing really (and can be bounced), especially if it's being fetched by E. Tutor since then Sneak Tell player can just play around it by not playing Show and Tell, and forcing it if they try to harcast it.
Best bet is something like Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker AND Karakas being available at the same time, since either of those alone won't do the job like they are supposed to.

[catmint]

You know what KoR can do against draw 14. Go to the attack step. Sneak has to basically win the next turn. Sure possible drawing sneak attack & Emrakul and having 3RR. But Maverick can interact very well: Wasteland and especially Thalia (blanking lotus petal) can make the difference.

[Pippin]

You know what KoR can do against draw 14. Go to the attack step. Sneak has to basically win the next turn. Sure possible drawing sneak attack & Emrakul and having 3RR. But Maverick can interact very well: Wasteland and especially Thalia (blanking lotus petal) can make the difference.

Aren't you missing something? Sneak Attack player has a Griselbrand at that point in play. Knight can't attack through it, so it's only mission is to fetch Karakas in hope Sneaky player will miss in his draw 14. Due to sol lands and Lotus Petals it's very realistic that Sneak Attack player will just one-shot Maverick player the following turn. Something like McDarby did a few weeks back against Rock player on camera.

[menace13]

Elves isn't really good against Sneak. They cant disrupt Sneak and have to resolve Glimpse on around turn 3 in order to win. They cant interact with Emmy or Grisel in any way once they hit the board(few things can, but Elves is all blanks unless they combo out before Sneak).

Humility/Bridge.deck is only a problem if you dont have bounce and try going off with SnT.

Dredge, ANT and anything with 3 Jaces, 4 KotR, 3 Cliques, 3 Pierce main is hard to win through.

[dontbiteitholmes]

That may have been the case before Griselbrand, but with him in the spotlight everything has changed. Knight + Karakas is suddenly only a fog effect, and can't do anything against draw 14. Teeg shuts of Sneak Attack, but doesn't stop Show and Tell into Sneak Attack. 1 Humility is nothing really (and can be bounced), especially if it's being fetched by E. Tutor since then Sneak Tell player can just play around it by not playing Show and Tell, and forcing it if they try to harcast it.
Best bet is something like Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker AND Karakas being available at the same time, since either of those alone won't do the job like they are supposed to.

On Knight + Karakas - if they are drawing 7 they are also paying 7 life. You are attacking (I hope) in the mean time. It's not a perfect solution, but what is? Every good combo deck can play around disruption. Maverick has quite a few speed bumps and Show and Tell is trying to drive through at 100MPH. Slowing them down enough to win is all you need. They basically have 4 winning configurations (6 with Breach). Show + Emrakul, Show+GBrand, Sneak + Emrakul, Sneak + GBrand. If Knight + Karakas means they can't reliably drop Emrakul off Show that means you cut off 25% of their deck. It also means if you've already gotten through some damage Show + GBrand could put them on a short clock where they have to win next turn.

On Humility + tutor. The idea here being you could Tutor up Humility and just hold it. Check the Show decks that have recently been top 8ing. They normally run 0 to 3 bounce spells. That means if you get Humility in hand they can't rely on Show and Tell at all which cuts off half their combo unless they have bounce. Even then they still have to play Show then bounce your Humility. Don't know if it's the way to go but it's an option. In the mean time you are still dropping hate bears and turning sideways.

There is no silver bullet "I win" card vs. Show and Tell for Maverick. You have to look at the whole picture here. It's not the strength of any individual piece since no card just answers the entire combo. It's the fact that you have all these pieces, you can protect your hate bears from answers with Mother and drop them with Daze protection turn 2 off Noble. You can tutor up Teeg 4 ways, you can play Thalia, you can drop Knight off Show and get Karakas. Yes their are answers to every answer you have, but your answers are cumulative and many. Look how many cards in the deck interact with Sneak/Show and have a non-zero impact. Even Pridemage threatening to blow up a Sneak is relevant if it's not immediately used. It effectively means Sneak costs 5, with Thalia out it gets even better, make that 6.

I feel like Maverick has the tools to fight Sneak/Show. I don't think it's even closed to a lost cause.

[Pippin]

I feel like Maverick has the tools to fight Sneak/Show. I don't think it's even closed to a lost cause.

Of course it's not a lost cause, but the main issue is that before printing of Griselbrand Maverick had atleast 50% matchup against Sneak Attack decks. All thanks to Knight + Karakas interaction. Nowadays that doesn't matter anymore since Griselbrand effectively negates that interactions and enables one-shot kills the following turn.

[catmint]

Aren't you missing something? Sneak Attack player has a Griselbrand at that point in play. Knight can't attack through it, so it's only mission is to fetch Karakas in hope Sneaky player will miss in his draw 14. Due to sol lands and Lotus Petals it's very realistic that Sneak Attack player will just one-shot Maverick player the following turn. Something like McDarby did a few weeks back against Rock player on camera.

No I am not. The following scenario for you in detail:
1) S&T resolves: Griselbrand and KoR are put into play

2) KoR then fetches up Karakas in his turn. Karakas bounces Griselbrand and in your example you draw 14 cards bringing you to 6 or less life.

3)Turn is passed to Sneak&Show. Since you are on that low life you have 1 turn to sneak in emrakul since you probably won't survive the following attack step.

As I said it is possible to win the next turn but if maverick has a thalia/wasteland/teeg they are able to disrupt. If you only draw 7 and decide to wait another turn you make it more difficult because you need to sneak in emrakul twice (since karakas is already untapped). If you do not want to open yourself up to pridemage disruption you then need 2rrr in one turn.

[theBloody]

Can't wait to drop my Aluren thank to opponents SnT.

[menace13]

Can't wait to drop my Aluren thank to opponents SnT.

And then not be able to resolve a single relevant creature against 14 cards.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Of course it's not a lost cause, but the main issue is that before printing of Griselbrand Maverick had atleast 50% matchup against Sneak Attack decks. All thanks to Knight + Karakas interaction. Nowadays that doesn't matter anymore since Griselbrand effectively negates that interactions and enables one-shot kills the following turn.

Yes Grisel is really good here, but pre-Grisel they would have been putting Progen into play and putting you on a 2 turn clock with a Karakas proof 10/10 super wall in play on your next turn, so depending on their life total and your board position they speed up their clock by a turn maybe. You still have a turn to Wasteland/play hate bears/disrupt them in other ways. Since Karakas is in play in this case they still need 6 mana to play + activate Sneak, if Thalia is in play make that 7. They still need Emrakul + Sneak Attack, which is a 2 card combo they still have a small chance not to draw + have enough to activate. Like I said, Maverick vs. Sneak / Show is almost 100% speed bumps. You don't have the blow out cards but almost every card in your deck is capable of effecting them in some way.

Hate bears slow them down.
Knight gets Karakas then puts them on a clock.
Cavern nullifies counters to your guys.
GSZ gets Teeg/Knight or Arbor to put you outside of Daze range turn2.
Noble puts you out of Daze range turn 2 when you are able to drop hatebears.
Mother makes it almost impossible for most Sneak/Show decks to answer Teeg and friends once active.
Pridemage makes it risky for them to leave out Sneak for a turn if they have to tap out for it.
Aven puts a hurting on fetches and Intuition.

[(nameless one)]

Why wouldn't anyone just play The Mighty Quinn?

In a meta with little CounterTop and Storm combo, it's actually awesome.

Maindeck answers from a lot of creature-based decks from StP to Humility and can go toe to toe with Blade control.

[theBloody]

And then not be able to resolve a single relevant creature against 14 cards.

Depend. I can react to Griselbrand active ability, after they pay 7 life. Then they active it again. If I have enough cards I can go off with their 14 cards on stack.

[Esper3k]

Of course it's not a lost cause, but the main issue is that before printing of Griselbrand Maverick had atleast 50% matchup against Sneak Attack decks. All thanks to Knight + Karakas interaction. Nowadays that doesn't matter anymore since Griselbrand effectively negates that interactions and enables one-shot kills the following turn.

Yeah think about that - a GW deck having that good of game against combo. Seems wrong to me!

[DragoFireheart]

Yeah think about that - a GW deck having that good of game against combo. Seems wrong to me!

- No, it sounds like Starcraft balance rather than Rock-paper-scissors.

[Ignithas_]

Yeah think about that - a GW deck having that good of game against combo. Seems wrong to me!

Only U decks should have a good MU against Combo. It's like if UW have a good MU against aggro. Oh wait...

[Fossil4182]

As a call out: Has anyone done actual testing with Griselbrand Show & Tell versus some archetypes or at the very least have a decent sample of data on its match-ups? I'm not talking about observations, feelings or experience playing in a weekly tournament, but actual testing the match-ups pre-board, post board, on the play, on the draw, different configurations, etc.

[Esper3k]

As a call out: Has anyone done actual testing with Griselbrand Show & Tell versus some archetypes or at the very least have a decent sample of data on its match-ups? I'm not talking about observations, feelings or experience playing in a weekly tournament, but actual testing the match-ups pre-board, post board, on the play, on the draw, different configurations, etc.

I would look at the Sneak Attack deck in the Established deck section to start...

[Koby]

As a call out: Has anyone done actual testing with Griselbrand Show & Tell versus some archetypes or at the very least have a decent sample of data on its match-ups? I'm not talking about observations, feelings or experience playing in a weekly tournament, but actual testing the match-ups pre-board, post board, on the play, on the draw, different configurations, etc.

I've started some testing with menace13 playing a few sample matchups. I'm starting an intense playtest session via MTGO Daily Events, so I'll let you know how it goes.

So far, Bant (KotR, Jace, FoW, Karakas, Clique MD) is 100% pre/post board against Sneak Show, based on 4 games. :P

The other S&T decks can't really beat Griselbrand reliably. Something about drawing 14 cards into multitude of counters beats them silly.

[phazonmutant]

If S&T decks get more prevalent, then it seems like ones that win as soon as their thing comes down should be favored. That pushes me to think Hive Mind or Dream Halls could be somewhat favored against Sneak and Show and Hypergenesis.

But if you're looking to beat Sneak & Show and Hypergenesis specifically, Humility and Ensnaring Bridge have to be the way to go.
Mono-White Stax seems pretty reasonable - it beat me up when I was playing a Show & Tell Griselbrand deck. It has tools specific, maindeck tools against Hypergenesis and Show and Tell and can blow up their greedy manabases (Waste, 'Geddon). Chalice on 1 and Wasteland are really good against Canadian Thresh too. The deck has never been super consistent, but it seems to be well positioned right now.

Enchantress doesn't seem bad either. It also can play Humility, and Solitary Confinement shuts off Dream Halls and Sneak and Show (kinda).

[Esper3k]

Enchantress doesn't seem bad either. It also can play Humility, and Solitary Confinement shuts off Dream Halls and Sneak and Show (kinda).

Solitary Confinement is pretty bad against Emrakul though...

Not to mention Enchantress usually isn't fast enough to keep up with those types of decks, imo.

[Arianrhod]

It isn't, but I'll grant that Elephant Grass is a house against Griselbrand and any random Progenituses they happen to still be running. Emmy's definitely the problem for Enchantress....otherwise I think they could lean solely on Grass.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Why wouldn't anyone just play The Mighty Quinn?

In a meta with little CounterTop and Storm combo, it's actually awesome.

Maindeck answers from a lot of creature-based decks from StP to Humility and can go toe to toe with Blade control.

Not such a bad thought, really. I was always a little tempted to build that deck, but not wanting to buy a Moat has always prevented me. I'm pretty sure Quinn would be played more if time constraints weren't such a factor for it, and if more people knew it existed in the first place. :tongue: Also, it requires you to think several turns ahead and precisely manage your turns on a level comparative to Solidarity or Mono Blue Control, without actually being a blue deck (which most people tend to assume is a better selection in an eternal format.)

[menace13]

Depend. I can react to Griselbrand active ability, after they pay 7 life. Then they active it again. If I have enough cards I can go off with their 14 cards on stack.

Aluren has to resolve a Recruiter unless you have more than 1 in hand it isnt easy, The other creatures are pretty Irrelevant.

Grisel > Dream Halls. Haven't tested Hive Mind but before Flying Bargain it wasn't favored.

[Esper3k]

It isn't, but I'll grant that Elephant Grass is a house against Griselbrand and any random Progenituses they happen to still be running. Emmy's definitely the problem for Enchantress....otherwise I think they could lean solely on Grass.

Yeah Elephant Grass is your best bet, but if they drop Griselbrand, there will also be a pretty decent chance they can get Emrakul out shortly afterwards.

Elephant Grass is definitely better vs Hypergenesis than Sneaky Show since Hypergenesis also runs Progenitus and I guess Maelstrom Wanderer these days?

[Pippin]

Yes Grisel is really good here, but pre-Grisel they would have been putting Progen into play and putting you on a 2 turn clock with a Karakas proof 10/10 super wall in play on your next turn, so depending on their life total and your board position they speed up their clock by a turn maybe.

Progenitus wasn't a problem since it could be raced with batterskull (I've witnessed it myself). So yeah - Griselbrand is all the difference here, and a huge one. Yawgmoth's Bargain is banned in format and we now have one that is on crack and win condition on it's own if needed.

[Fossil4182]

Just from an observation standpoint, the deck would seem to have a problem with permanent based hate. The deck only runs 8 - 10 counters and post board has access to 3-4 ways to interact with the board via bounce. If, as I gather, the real issue is Griselbrand's draw seven ability.....

Permanent based ways to deal with Griselbrand's draw seven ability:

-Cursed Totem: Activated abilities of creatures can't be activated.
-Humility: All creatures lose all abilities and are 1/1.
-Damping Matrix: Activated abilities of artifacts and creatures can't be activated unless they're mana abilities.
-Linvala, Keeper of Silence: Activated abilities of creatures your opponents control can't be activated.
-Chains of Mephistopheles: If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in his or her draw step each turn, that player discards a card instead. If the player discards a card this way, he or she draws a card. If the player doesn't discard a card this way, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
-Underworld Dreams: Whenever an opponent draws a card, Underworld Dreams deals 1 damage to him or her.
-Suppression Field: Activated abilities cost 2 more to activate unless they're mana abilities.
-Pithing Needle: As Pithing Needle enters the battlefield, name a card. Activated abilities of sources with the chosen name can't be activated unless they're mana abilities.
-Phyrexian Revoker: As Phyrexian Revoker enters the battlefield, name a nonland card. Activated abilities of sources with the chosen name can't be activated.

This list is not complete, but the omissions are just flat out unplayable.

Cursed Totem has some added utility against other decks such as Maverick and UW Stoneblade. Damping Matrix is just a more expensive version of Totem, but does offer some utility against decks that abuse Top, UW Stoneblade and Affinity (but that's not really a deck....). Cursed Totem could work in a dedicated control deck as a sideboard answer with overlapping utility. However, I don't know if control is viable right now.

Suppression Field doesn't feel like a great answer. It doesn't stop Griselbrand's ability (just taxes it), and its symmetrical meaning unless you're playing a deck without activated abilities, it disrupts your deck's game plan.

Humility and Linvala, Keeper of Silence are both great answers. However, both seem too expensive to be practical solutions. Linvala, Keeper of Silence could work in Maverick given it can accelerate it out as early as turn three. I've seen Linvala, Keeper in Silence in some Maverick lists, but without a reliable way to tutor for it, I don't see this dramatically changing the match up. Humility is probably too slow at four mana. Humility is usually reserved for dedicated control decks and I don't know if one is viable given the prevalence of UW Stoneblade, RUG and S&T. Maybe UW Miracle if it needs another way to deal with Griselbrand.

Underworld Dreams is awesome, but doesn't fit well into any existing decks with the BBB casting cost except maybe Pox (even still a deck?)

Chains of Mephistopheles is an interesting card. It functionally changes Griselbrand's ability from generating card advantage to virtual card advantage. It also punishes Brainstorm unlike any other card in the format and makes cantrips much less effective. However, its probably too narrow and at best stops your opponent from winning/gaining an advantage as opposed to pushing one's deck toward winning.

Pithing Needle is probably the most practical answer for most decks. It shuts down the ability and is also a live draw if you end up with a second (naming Sneak Attack). It has added utility against decks such as Maverick, UW Stoneblade, Top based control decks, etc. Phyrexian Revoker is the next best alternative, but it comes down a turn later and loses some of the cross over utility because it its a durable. It is worth noting that being able to target Lion's Eye Diamond and mana dorks with Phyrexian Revoker can be fun.

[I am the brainwasher]

Enlightened Tutor sideboards might work decent here. Phyrexian Revoker doesn't seem too shabby either (which can be easily combined for obv. reasons).

[Fossil4182]

Enlightened Tutor sideboards might work decent here. Phyrexian Revoker doesn't seem too shabby either (which can be easily combined for obv. reasons).

Revoker is actually a fairly decent answer given that it dodges Spell Pierce hate.

[GradStudentGuy]

Players need to just add pithing needel back to their sideboards. It affects a ton of cards in legacy for a very small mana investment. I do agree however that Griselbrand is the most powerful 'creature' printed to date.

[ESG]

As an Enchantress player, I have to dispute the notion that Elephant Grass "is a house against Griselbrand." Griselbrand draws 14 cards, which usually finds an Echoing Truth to bounce it and/or Emrakul, who can swing when his controller pays 2, and/or lands and Lotus Petals to pay for Emrakul's attack. Elephant Grass is useful at buying you time when they DON'T have Griselbrand and when you force them to be on the Sneak Attack or Through the Breach plan. If they have Griselbrand, you're probably going to lose. Humility is not the answer in Enchantress, either. Sneak and Show has lots of ways to dig for an answer. Meanwhile, you have either no clock or a pathetic clock, and you're not likely to get there unless you already have Enchantress's Presence out or Sigil of the Empty Throne, which is unlikely because their deck is generally a lot faster. Ultimately, the key to this matchup is to stop the Sneak and Show player from drawing 7-14 cards, and that seems to be the key for most decks paired against Sneak and Show.

Taking a wider view of decks and cards, here are cards I like against Griselbrand:
Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Cursed Totem, Stifle. If you're in red, Runeflare Trap eats their Force of Will. If you're in blue, Gilded Drake steals their creature when they Show and Tell. Counterspells, discard, faster combos and Emrakul are all good.

[Telperion]

I hate to give up my tech, but Seal of Removal has been great for me in RUG. Works a lot like preemptive graveyard hate. Also, not too bad against KotR.

[Lejay]

I always liked the seal of removal tech, but aren't you "giving up" the tech once it became bad ? (with the printing of griselbrand)

[Richard Cheese]

Permanent based ways to deal with Griselbrand's draw seven ability:

-Cursed Totem: Activated abilities of creatures can't be activated.
-Humility: All creatures lose all abilities and are 1/1.
-Damping Matrix: Activated abilities of artifacts and creatures can't be activated unless they're mana abilities.
-Linvala, Keeper of Silence: Activated abilities of creatures your opponents control can't be activated.
-Chains of Mephistopheles: If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in his or her draw step each turn, that player discards a card instead. If the player discards a card this way, he or she draws a card. If the player doesn't discard a card this way, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
-Underworld Dreams: Whenever an opponent draws a card, Underworld Dreams deals 1 damage to him or her.
-Suppression Field: Activated abilities cost 2 more to activate unless they're mana abilities.

This list is not complete, but the omissions are just flat out unplayable.


Aren't we getting back to the reason that everyone complained about Hive Mind? Of all the answers to Grizlebees that have been listed so far, only Humility does anything about Emrakul. When it's essentially a crap shoot (for both players) as to which fatty they're going to drop, and there's very little crossover between the answers for each. Seems to me like the stack is the only place to beat the whole deck, and not just half of it.

[Fossil4182]

Aren't we getting back to the reason that everyone complained about Hive Mind? Of all the answers to Grizlebees that have been listed so far, only Humility does anything about Emrakul. When it's essentially a crap shoot (for both players) as to which fatty they're going to drop, and there's very little crossover between the answers for each. Seems to me like the stack is the only place to beat the whole deck, and not just half of it.


Just from an observation standpoint, the deck would seem to have a problem with permanent based hate. The deck only runs 8 - 10 counters and post board has access to 3-4 ways to interact with the board via bounce. If, as I gather, the real issue is Griselbrand's draw seven ability.....

I don't disagree that the stack is the best place to beat this deck. However, most of the thread has indicated the "draw seven cards" ability of Griselbrand was the main issue. Based on that I compiled a list of permanent based answers to that ability which may have cross over applications in other match-ups allowing them to be included in sideboards.

---------

Not to knock the title of thread, but there should probably be a discussion on discussion "Adapting to the RUG decks"

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24225_Too_Much_Information_Madison_And_Orlando_Legacy_Opens.html

The data from early last month suggests that Show & Tell really isn't that popular and only appears as about 3% of the metagame between the Orlando and Madison events. The data is still incomplete given Sneak and Show's showings at Nashville and Columbus (though Columbus saw a marked drop off compared to Nashville in terms of placement of Sneak and Show).

[Lejay]

Metamorph (or any other clone effect) doesn't work through show and tell to deal with legendary fatties put into play via S&T. You have to cast it afterwards and it will likely die to countermagic, especially with griselbrand.

[Arsenal]

Cursed Totem seems to be the most reasonable "answer" as it has wider applications versus other Tier 1/Tier 2 decks (Maverick, Junk, Stoneblade to a degree, etc). It can come down relativly early and can be played in any sideboard due to it being an artifact. True, it may hurt you as well, but I'd much rather not be able to activate my Stoneforge Mystic if it means I don't have to deal with my opponent drawing 14 cards at once.

[Richard Cheese]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/lg/126.jpg

Like a boss.

[Tammit67]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/lg/126.jpg

Like a boss.

My elf tech is revealed!!!!

[Tacosnape]

I think the general gist of everything I see here ends in one point - If you can't stop Show and Tell, you need two cards to deal with Griselbrand - One to stop them from drawing 7 cards, and another to stop them from beating you to death with a huge 7/7 flappy lifesucker.

Humility is the only card I'm aware of that does both of these things. Read up on your layers and run this card like a boss.

[Fossil4182]

I think the general gist of everything I see here ends in one point - If you can't stop Show and Tell, you need two cards to deal with Griselbrand - One to stop them from drawing 7 cards, and another to stop them from beating you to death with a huge 7/7 flappy lifesucker.

Humility is the only card I'm aware of that does both of these things. Read up on your layers and run this card like a boss.

I don't disagree that Humility is among the best answers to the Show and Tell deck in theory. However, can Humility come down in time to matter? Traditionally, Humility has appeared in control shells. If the Show and Tell resolves the deck's name sake against a control deck, then how does the control deck overcome the Show and Tell player drawing 7 - 14 cards giving the player enough countermagic magic to stop the control player from resolving Humility?

[TorpidNinja]

I don't disagree that Humility is among the best answers to the Show and Tell deck in theory. However, can Humility come down in time to matter? Traditionally, Humility has appeared in control shells. If the Show and Tell resolves the deck's name sake against a control deck, then how does the control deck overcome the Show and Tell player drawing 7 - 14 cards giving the player enough countermagic magic to stop the control player from resolving Humility?

Sorry if someone else has mentioned this already, but wouldn't you just put Humility into play off of SnT?

[Koby]

Sorry if someone else has mentioned this already, but wouldn't you just put Humility into play off of SnT?

That's the best scenario. Sneak Show players have been adapting to going mostly for Sneak Attack plan by either cheating it into play with Show and Tell or hard casting.

Sneak Attack is the stronger strategy in this deck, and using any opportunity to utilize it is the main goal.

[Arsenal]

I think the Bargain ability is 99% of the problem, not the 7/7 Flying Lifelink body it's attached to. I mean, 7/7 Flying Lifelink really isn't that impressive when compared to other fatties with vanilla attributes (vanilla as is Flying, Deathtouch, Shroud, Haste, etc.).

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

That's the best scenario. Sneak Show players have been adapting to going mostly for Sneak Attack plan by either cheating it into play with Show and Tell or hard casting.

Sneak Attack is the stronger strategy in this deck, and using any opportunity to utilize it is the main goal.

If they cheat in Sneak Attack with S&T, you still get to drop your Humility and likely win the game. As for them adapting to go for Sneak Attack, sure, they can try that but that actually seems terrible as a gameplan. Sneak and Show is already not the most consistent of decks and if they reject half their enablers (because they might or might not face Humility), I don't think they're going to win all that many games against me. Defending against a five mana win is also a hell of a lot easier than stopping a three mana win.

@Arsenal: Yeah, the Bargain is the problem, definitely. If you can stop that, Grisel is just much worse than Emrakul would be - a problem we all have learned to reasonably deal with by now.

Over all, Humility for (white-based) control decks, Linvala for Maverick (also nice to S&T in) and Needle/Revoker for everybody - combined with some Emmi/Legend-hate - so far seems to do the job surprisingly well given how concerned I was with Sneak and Show when I started testing against it.
Oblivion Ring on it's own has also been surprisingly solid because it totally negates S&T for Emmi while also forcing their hand on Griselbranding (leaving them only with a great 7 instead of ~15 cards to work with).

The deck is still obnoxious because it has a three mana two card win the game combo (which is pretty ridiculous) but so far it looks eminently beatable especially because of its inconsistency (in my experience it'll lose about one game in five to itself against any kind of resistance).

/edit: @Taco: they also need two cards to get Griselbrand into play in the first place, meaning even if you need to spend two cards to neutralize it, you're still breaking even. That doesn't even take into account that they now have to set up the whole two card combo again. Humility is insane against them because it effectively 2 for 1s them AND sticks around to make their deck do nothing.

[Tacosnape]

As Torpid mentioned, you would. Whereas racing a Show and Tell with Humility is out of the question, racing Sneak Attack isn't necessarily so, and you can stop Sneak Attack in other ways, such as with a Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Gaddock Teeg, Blue Elemental Blast, whatever.

Attempting to resolve Humility shouldn't always be the first priority. Keeping one hanging around in your hand is often a better idea, as not only does it shut off the S&T/Fatty plan, the S&T player doesn't always know you've shut off this plan, unless you happen to Enlightened Tutor for it.

And unlike the rest of the world, I happen to think that a 7/7 Flying Lifelinker is still something you have to deal with if you want to win the game. Not saying it's difficult to do so, but just because you drop the Cursed Totem/Pithing Needle doesn't necessarily mean you've stopped the Griselbrand - You've still got to get that STP and power it through a potentially disasterous Misdirection. And I'm not saying it's bad to spend two cards to stop Griselbrand - You just won't always have both pieces.

[Star|Scream]

If they cheat in Sneak Attack with S&T, you still get to drop your Humility and likely win the game. As for them adapting to go for Sneak Attack, sure, they can try that but that actually seems terrible as a gameplan. Sneak and Show is already not the most consistent of decks and if they reject half their enablers (because they might or might not face Humility), I don't think they're going to win all that many games against me. Defending against a five mana win is also a hell of a lot easier than stopping a three mana win.

@Arsenal: Yeah, the Bargain is the problem, definitely. If you can stop that, Grisel is just much worse than Emrakul would be - a problem we all have learned to reasonably deal with by now.

Over all, Humility for (white-based) control decks, Linvala for Maverick (also nice to S&T in) and Needle/Revoker for everybody - combined with some Emmi/Legend-hate - so far seems to do the job surprisingly well given how concerned I was with Sneak and Show when I started testing against it.
Oblivion Ring on it's own has also been surprisingly solid because it totally negates S&T for Emmi while also forcing their hand on Griselbranding (leaving them only with a great 7 instead of ~15 cards to work with).

Am I missing something here? Can they not just put the Griselbrand trigger on the stack and respond with another trigger?

Then chain of vapor your o-ring off the 14 cards they draw?

[rxavage]

Am I missing something here? Can they not just put the Griselbrand trigger on the stack and respond with another trigger?

Then chain of vapor your o-ring off the 14 cards they draw?

Then the opponent can sac a land and then bounce Gris in response. Chain of Vapor is no good in that situation. It's possible to win off the 14 cards, but there's also a good chance that 14 life and having to pass the turn matters too.

[Fossil4182]

Sorry if someone else has mentioned this already, but wouldn't you just put Humility into play off of SnT?

Ideally yes. The practical reality is that you would need to run at least three Humilities or run an Enlightened Tutor based deck. Running three seems terribly inefficient so that leaves us with Enlightened Tutor. I know if an Enlightened Tutor based control deck is viable right now. While I think it could be effective against Show and Tell, I don't know if it would be effective against the rest of the field (specifically RUG).

[Star|Scream]

Then the opponent can bounce a land and then bounce Gris in response. Chain of Vapor is no good in that situation. It's possible to win off the 14 cards, but there's also a good chance that 14 life and having to pass the turn matters too.

Again, stop me if I'm wrong.

SNT -

Griselbrand & O-ring etb at the same time

O-ring trigger goes on stack targets griselbrand.

SNT player draws 14 cards and pays 14 life off of griselbrand.

O-ring trigger resolves.

Empty stack, SNT player plays lotus petal, then plays chain of vapor targeting o-ring

o-ring player has no legal targets to copy, o-ring goes back to hand, and griselbrand etb again.

What am I missing?

[Zinch]

Nothing. This is correct.

A better answer to BOTH griselbrand and Emrakul after a show and tell is Phyrexian Metamorph. But it is useless against sneak attack...

[rxavage]

Again, stop me if I'm wrong.

SNT -

Griselbrand & O-ring etb at the same time

O-ring trigger goes on stack targets griselbrand.

SNT player draws 14 cards and pays 14 life off of griselbrand.

O-ring trigger resolves.

Empty stack, SNT player plays lotus petal, then plays chain of vapor targeting o-ring

o-ring player has no legal targets to copy, o-ring goes back to hand, and griselbrand etb again.

What am I missing?


NM, I guess it was me misunderstanding. I was under the assumption they could copy the CoV and bounce Gris.

[Tammit67]

NM, I guess it was me misunderstanding. I was under the assumption they could copy the CoV and bounce Gris.

Yeah the Oring trigger hasn't yet stacked during CoV's resolution

[Finn]

If the deck is made properly, it really should work like that most of the time. Oblivion Ring is weak against Griselbrand, yet strong against Emrakul.

Can anyone think of a card that you would plop down from a S+T that is actually strong against both of their creatures? Just Metamorph. With Griselbrand the deck gets the biggest advantage of S+T/Hive Mind - that is, the things it drops are can not be hated by the same spells. Only now it does not need all the totally awful crap that Hive Mind had to run to make it work.

So, the players are opting for more stack control, as they should be, since the deck can really only be handled that way. I would say that Griselbrand redefines S+T's power the way Vengevine did with Survival.

[rxavage]

Yeah the Oring trigger hasn't yet stacked during CoV's resolution

Yeah, I realized that after it was laid out and I went over it mentaly. How long does is take for this priority/stack thing become second nature and I don't have to take a mintue or two to contemplate it?

[Star|Scream]

Unfortunately Phyrexian Metamorph doesn't work off of a SNT. It will work next turn, though... If it resolves...

Duplicant would work against Emrakul, and the trigger would go on the stack against griselbrand, to which they could still respond by drawing 14 cards. However, if they don't have any available mana, they can't chain of vapor their griselbrand to save it, and you get a 7/7 artifact creature. They can bounce the duplicant next time they have spare mana, but they now know what you have and they also have to discard down to 7. That will sort of force them to use sneak attack next time.

[Koby]

Nothing. This is correct.

A better answer to BOTH griselbrand and Emrakul after a show and tell is Phyrexian Metamorph. But it is useless against sneak attack...

Clone, Metamorph, and any Clone effect CANNOT copy the creature that also enters the battlefield off Show & Tell. The creature MUST exist on the battlefield prior to the resolution of Show & Tell to be a valid choice.

[Lord Seth]

Can anyone think of a card that you would plop down from a S+T that is actually strong against both of their creatures?Sower of Temptation. Also Humility.

[csy]

I had a rug player put gilded drake into play when I put griss into play... seemed good.

[Arsenal]

Sower of Temptation. Also Humility.

Grisel can be activated in response, and he'll undoubtedly find an answer to sower in his drawn cards.

[rxavage]

Can you activate Gris in response to Guilded Drake and hit it with wipe away or would it the ability have to be stifled?

[Telperion]

Grisel can be activated in response, and he'll undoubtedly find an answer to sower in his drawn cards.

I think the poster meant that the sower comes in from SnT. In which case drawing cards is not gonna help unless Sneak Attack now has room for bolts/stifles and that much extra mana.

[Lord Seth]

Grisel can be activated in response, and he'll undoubtedly find an answer to sower in his drawn cards.Like what? Show and Tell decks don't usually have stuff maindeck to deal with such a thing. Or are we talking postboard? Because even then it takes a little luck and enough mana.

[csy]

Can you activate Gris in response to Guilded Drake and hit it with wipe away or would it the ability have to be stifled?

I didn't have echoing truth or wipe away in my deck. The misplay was not putting in sneak attack instead of gris

[whienot]

Can you activate Gris in response to Guilded Drake and hit it with wipe away or would it the ability have to be stifled?

Bouncing the Drake in response to its ETB trigger will effectively counter the ability. Gilded Drake must be exchanged in order for its trigger to resolve.

[Koby]

Most decks that would be packing Gilded Drake also pack alot of Blue. Guess REB is coming in regardless, and that could be cast in response to the trigger to kill Drake prior to the exchange.

[sdematt]

@ aaron (back on page way back)

Magical Christmasland, finally someone used my expression!

@ Cursed Totem

But the thing is, as the Sneak and Show player, you're fine with Cursed Totem. I've been running in my Sneak and Show list, 3 Cursed Totems in the board. Why? You can slow-roll the garbage out of Maverick and just go off anyway. Stops their Knight from fetching Karakas, stops their mana development, stops Qasali Pridemage when you lay down Sneak Attack. Stops stupid Scryb Ranger or another flier + Mother of Runes blocking you all day until you hit Emrakul.

At this point, I side out some Griselbrands for Crater Hellions. -2 Griselbrand (Cursed Totem, why you no play nice with my creatures?!) +3 Crater Hellion +3 Cursed Totem (minus other garbage) has been very strong.

@ E. tutor based control

I think this could be super strong right now, you just need to find a build that's good against RUG.

@ Blue

Gilded Drake can take Emrakul off Show and Tell, I'm quite certain. Vendilion Clique is also huge. IRT Show and Tell, you take what they love most. I think Meddling Mage also has real potential in a Bant list. I'm exploring this avenue extensively. Koby, you interested in collaborating?

-Matt

[csy]

I don't think koby is going to want to work on anything that hurts SnT pre GPATL.. spoiler alert.

[(nameless one)]

@ E. tutor based control

I think this could be super strong right now, you just need to find a build that's good against RUG.

-Matt

What about CounterTop Thopters? That deck runs CounterTop which is good against Canadian and a Tutor package that can tutor for either O-Ring, Humility or any aggro hate.

[Finn]

Yes, Humility kinda works but for only a pure control
deck or maybe storm combo. I do not think there is a generally effective card against both. Even something like Revoker (the timing works better off SnT than metamorph) still leaves a 7/7 in the air and does not touch Emrakul. If I am right, and there is no effective means to beat the deck once it resolves either of it's key cards, you really have to beat it like a pure combo deck.

The point is that it is a lot like Flash then, just at one more mana for SnT.

[Arsenal]

Like what? Show and Tell decks don't usually have stuff maindeck to deal with such a thing. Or are we talking postboard? Because even then it takes a little luck and enough mana.

Of course I'm talking postboard; virtually all of the cards being discussed thus far have been cards that are obviously coming postboard (aside from dedicated E. Tutor decks, who the hell would consider running Pithing Needle/Cursed Totem/Dupliant/etc maindeck?)

Also, SnT decks run 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Lotus Petal. That "luck" and "mana" you speak of isn't that difficult to come by in SnT.

[MGB]

The point is that it is a lot like Flash then, just at one more mana for SnT.

So I assume that you believe that S'n'T is ban-worthy?

[joemauer]

The point is that it is a lot like Flash then, just at one more mana for SnT.

Hush! Talk like that will get this thread closed!

Show and Tell is fine. Legacy is fine. Everyone just throw some more Oblivion Rings in their decks and we will all be fine.

[xfxf]

Trying to battle Show&Tell (or thinking it's banworthy in that regard) isn't solving the root problem. I've read Ryan Overturf's article on Hypergenesis/Sneak Attack and at one point the clearly says that:

If you’re a deck with Karakas, Swords to Plowshares and Knight of the Reliquarys, then you would probably rather face a Griselbrand than a Progenitus to be entirely honest.

I strongly disagree with that because if progenitus was my only problem I could race it with a huge Knight or swordsing one huge knight and attacking with other critters. Or could race it with an exalted Batterskull. Also wouldn't worry about a "draw 14 and put Emrakul into play after your spell resolves" in response to a Terminus. Progenitus is much easier to beat and that's why Sneak&Show decks weren't broken until Griselbrand was printed. People even used Nicol Bolas to go overpowered but the deck never became tier 1.

The root strength of these decks is Griselbrand.

Also given the fact that these decks will always be able resolve at least 1 enabler against all of the current decks, fighting them on this level isn't meaningful. You have to somehow negate draw 7. Or annihilator 6. preferably both. Draw 7 results in annihilator 6 and that's what kill you.

Having said that I think there are two angels of attack agains these decks. The first one is what RUG and to some extent Maverick is doing (with Thalia). Tempoing them out with mana denial, counters etc. so that by the time their monster hits play it's already too late. However if the monsters hit play in time game is over.

The second angel is locking them out completely on the board. You have to make sure that if their enabler resolves after turn 2 it's already useless. Current control decks can't reliably lock the board like that and they can't reliably lock the stack for the duration of the game (again, fighting them on the stack problem). However decks like White Stax/Dutch stax can lock the board with cards like humility, ensnaring bridge etc. Then you don't have to worry about the stack. Sneak&Show player holds double counter, monster hits the board, monster looks dumb.

[sdematt]

So far, I've found Maverick to be pretty decent. A simple blue splash would probably make it MUCH better postboard. RUG I've found to be somewhat lacking.

Time to bring back Dutch Stax? Seems good.

-Matt

[Koby]

Show and Tell is fine. Legacy is fine. Everyone just throw some more Oblivion Rings in their decks and we will all be fine.

This is truth. O-ring answers all the problems that SnT offers. Opponent who are not ready to respond to it will at best, draw 14 cards off Griselbrand and have no board presence. Opponent who are prepared will probably drop Sneak Attack and activate it in response. However, it forces the Sneak Show's hand immediately.

[Gheizen64]

The deck switched from a 2-turn win creature (Emrak) and a 3-turn win creature (Proggy) to a 2-turn win creature (Emrak) and effectively a 1-turn win creature (Grisel). Both those creatures are basically immune to removal.

The thing that worries me the most, however, is the fact that the best option to fight SnT are (imho) faster combo decks and decks that play lot of Eldrazi, like Elfdrazi and TurboEldrazi. Maybe decks with black-based disruption like Junk variants would also be good if not for brainstorm. That card is giving too much consistency and protection to decks that shouldn't have it like Delver and SnT -based decks. But people love blue, and they love BS even more, so i don't think WotC will eve touch the card, they'd rather just ban SnT and be done with it for now until the next good deck. And maybe they'll unban bargain with it since Bargain without SnT is just an harder to cheat into play and worse Griselbrand.


This is truth. O-ring answers all the problems that SnT offers. Opponent who are not ready to respond to it will at best, draw 14 cards off Griselbrand and have no board presence. Opponent who are prepared will probably drop Sneak Attack and activate it in response. However, it forces the Sneak Show's hand immediately.

No board presence? I'm pretty sure u can find a bounce or another SnT into fatty in 14 cards.

[ESG]

This is truth. O-ring answers all the problems that SnT offers. Opponent who are not ready to respond to it will at best, draw 14 cards off Griselbrand and have no board presence.

Sorry, but this is totally wrong. I played 2 Oblivion Ring and 2 Journey to Nowhere maindeck in a Lotus tournament here last weekend. In Round 4, in the X-1 bracket, I knew my opponent was on Sneak and Show, so I mulled to a hand with an answer for a Turn 2 Show and Tell, since I had no counterspells in my deck. He dropped out Griselbrand; I dropped out an O. Ring. He drew 14 cards. Then he Forced my next play and made a Sneak Attack, which spit out an Emrakul and I lost 6 permanents, including the O. Ring, which meant I died to Griselbrand the next turn. If I dropped out Karakas instead, it wouldn't have mattered. He still would have drawn 14 cards and set up the killing blow via Sneak Attack. When your opponent draws 14 cards and you aren't threatening lethal on board, you just lose.

[csy]

so you're saying that playing grisselbrand means you win.. period the end? because... I just somehow feel like thats just giving up.

[menace13]

so you're saying that playing grisselbrand means you win.. period the end? because... I just somehow feel like thats just giving up.

Most of the time your 7 card hand cannot beat their 21(he also stated board was empty-what are you going to do?).

[Darkenslight]

You seem to have forgotten a card named Trickbind, which hates both Sneak Attack and Griselbrand.

[joemauer]

You seem to have forgotten a card named Trickbind, which hates both Sneak Attack and Griselbrand.

Trickbind does not answer Show and Tell or Emmy.

I think the intent of this thread was to find out Non-Blue answers to Sneak and Show.

[Hanni]

Pithing Needle to pre-emptively answer Sneak Attack and Griselbrand is far more effective than Trickbind, and it's playable in any sideboard.

[DragoFireheart]

Pithing Needle to pre-emptively answer Sneak Attack and Griselbrand is far more effective than Trickbind, and it's playable in any sideboard.

But then I have to adapt my pet deck to the format! Why should I have to adapt!? BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN...

[Final Fortune]

But then I have to adapt my pet deck to the format! Why should I have to adapt!? BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN...

In all fairness the line between Flash and Show&Tell after Griselbrand is a lot thinner, as much as I'm inclined to wait for the numbers to dictate whether or not a card should or shouldn't be banned the precedent for these kinds of cards has been set well before now.

[ESG]

Pithing Needle to pre-emptively answer Sneak Attack and Griselbrand is far more effective than Trickbind, and it's playable in any sideboard.

I have previously suggested this and Phyrexian Revoker; however, the incursion of other Show and Tell-based decks really reduces their effectiveness. Dream Halls can just win the game on the spot, and Hypergenesis can dump out Emrakul, Progenitus and Terastodon and/or Angel of Despair. Reanimator can simply find a different creature. It really is a bleak situation.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

The problem with Pithing Needle (and many other answers) is that most non-Blue decks can certainly play it, but not very effectively. Having to rely on a 7-card hand, or mulls, to get your only chance to stop slow down one outlet of a combo deck is a bad proposition. At least when you board in gravehate against Dredge not only does it wreck them, but it does splash damage to other decks in the format. Blue decks, because of Brainstorm, are just simply better at getting sideboard answers than any other decks, save maybe those that can draw tons of cards or tutor a lot. And they have Force and Brainstorm...so why wouldn't you play them if S&T is stomping around in the meta?

[dontbiteitholmes]

This thread seems to be devolving from adapting to Show & Tell decks to complaining about Show and Tell decks, why don't we try to make a list of cards in each color that are relevant vs. Show and Tell...

So to get that started...

Green -
Willow Satyr
Drop of Honey (in creature-less deck?)

Blue -
Counters
Gilded Drake
Control Magic/Sower of Temptation
Man-O'-War
Seal of Removal
Curfew
V Clique
Jace TMS
Vesuvan Doppelganger/Vesuvan Shapeshifter (doubtful)
Bribery/Telemin Performance

Black -
Discard
The Abyss
Shriekmaw/Bone Shredder
Liliana
Edicts
Oubliette
Chains of Meph (LOL)
Smallpox/Pox

White -
Thalia
Fiend Hunter
Oblivion Ring
Humility
Journey to Nowhere
Managara
White Drop of Honey (in Creature-less decks?)
Astral Slide (LOL)
Peacekeeper

Red -
Stingscourger

Artifact -
Ensnaring Bridge
Aether Spellbomb
Executioner's Capsule
Spine of Ish Sah
Duplicant
Pithing Needle
Phyrexian Revoker

Lands -
Karakas
Maze of Ith (not very relevant but could buy a turn)

Gold Cards -
Knight of the Reliquary (fetching Karakas)
Meddling Mage
Malfegor (probably not)

Obviously not all answers are created equal, so don't point out some of my "answers" suck because I already know that. If you think Brainstorming with a fetchland in play is strong you should try it while metagaming your deck, so broken. Please take all tears to the ban list thread where they belong, this thread is called adapting to Show and Tell decks, not complaining about Show and Tell decks. Please add to my list for great justice. Don't point out XXXX only shuts down part of the combo because we already know that, if you can name a single card that completely hoses any good combo deck out of the game and can't be played around let me know. Feel free to list subpar answers, but not to complain about them, this thread is officially a brainstorming session now, GO.

[joemauer]

Don't point out XXXX only shuts down part of the combo because we already know that, if you can name a single card that completely hoses any good combo deck out of the game and can't be played around let me know.

Griselbrand actually hoses ANT & TES out the game. Once he enters play his text might as well read "Target player who controls me has just won the game".

[rxavage]

Griselbrand actually hoses ANT & TES out the game. Once he enters play his text might as well read "Target player who controls me has just won the game".



This is utter bullshit, both of those decks are faster than sneakshow. This is getting old now, but funnier. Gris wins games but these overstatements are absurd.

[Phoenix Ignition]

This thread seems to be devolving from adapting to Show & Tell decks to complaining about Show and Tell decks, why don't we try to make a list of cards in each color that are relevant vs. Show and Tell...

So to get that started...

Green -
Willow Satyr
Drop of Honey
(in creature-less deck?)

Blue -
Counters
Gilded Drake
Control Magic
Sower of Temptation
Man-O'-War
Seal of Removal
Curfew
V Clique
Jace TMS
Vesuvan Doppelganger
Vesuvan Shapeshifter
(doubtful)
Bribery
Telemin Performance

Black -
Discard
The Abyss
Shriekmaw
Bone Shredder
Liliana
Edicts
Oubliette
Chains of Meph
(LOL)
Smallpox
Pox

White -
Thalia
Fiend Hunter
Oblivion Ring
Humility
Journey to Nowhere
Managara
White Drop of Honey
(in Creature-less decks?)
Astral Slide
(LOL)
Peacekeeper

Red -
Stingscourger

Artifact -
Ensnaring Bridge
Aether Spellbomb
Executioner's Capsule
Spine of Ish Sah
Duplicant
Pithing Needle
Phyrexian Revoker

Lands -
Karakas
Maze of Ith
(not very relevant but could buy a turn)

Gold Cards -
Knight of the Reliquary (fetching Karakas)
Meddling Mage
Malfegor (probably not)

Obviously not all answers are created equal, so don't point out some of my "answers" suck because I already know that. If you think Brainstorming with a fetchland in play is strong you should try it while metagaming your deck, so broken. Please take all tears to the ban list thread where they belong, this thread is called adapting to Show and Tell decks, not complaining about Show and Tell decks. Please add to my list for great justice. Don't point out XXXX only shuts down part of the combo because we already know that, if you can name a single card that completely hoses any good combo deck out of the game and can't be played around let me know. Feel free to list subpar answers, but not to complain about them, this thread is officially a brainstorming session now, GO.

Cuz' I don't know some of these cards

[dontbiteitholmes]

Griselbrand actually hoses ANT & TES out the game. Once he enters play his text might as well read "Target player who controls me has just won the game".

Fascinating. Please follow this link for further discussion http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14662-All-B-R-update-speculation

No wonder Griselbrand is the be all end all of everything. You can't talk about possible strategies against him because everyone will derail the discussion with how he is impossible to beat (yet he still isn't dominating every top 8 for some reason).

Also TES/ANT have that whole "Cast disruption spells and win the game before they can Show/Tell Griselbrand" plan B to fall back on.

[Koby]

How to Adapt to Sneak Show:
Play 4 Karakas. Play Mangara. *gulp* Play Death & Taxes.

*shrug*

[thefringthing]

I don't think it's worthwhile to list cards that are supposed to interact with Griselbrand while he's in play that don't have Split Second. You need to interact with Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Hypergenesis, etc. on the stack.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I don't think it's worthwhile to list cards that are supposed to interact with Griselbrand while he's in play that don't have Split Second. You need to interact with Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Hypergenesis, etc. on the stack.

Split second is no good if he's hitting play, they will get priority before you can cast spells. Some of the answers I listed are more in line with what you probably want...

Sower/Drake means you will also be drawing cards when they are done and you will be holding the GBrand for safe keeping.

Humilty means GBrand hits play as a 1/1 vanilla.

Revoker/Needle means GBrand doesn't draw cards, giving you time to deal with him before they go crazy.

Chains of Meph means at best they will be looting (and it's good vs. Ponders/Brainstorms before combo time).

[Deviruchi]

So now there is a fight: P.Needle, P.Revoker, B.Archon, E.Bridge, Linvala, G.Drake vs E.Truth, W.Away. The fight is fair but only during game 2&3.

I would love to see someone put Consecrated Sphinx via S&T to hose Griselbrand. Come on SCG Live, one time?

[Erdvermampfa]

what a ridiculous list of 'options'. You either counter Show and Tell or Sneak Attack on the stack or you lose to the Draw7 or 'Wipe your whole board'...Control magic..wtf

[Star|Scream]

Split second is no good if he's hitting play, they will get priority before you can cast spells. Some of the answers I listed are more in line with what you probably want...

Sower/Drake means you will also be drawing cards when they are done and you will be holding the GBrand for safe keeping.

As long as they don't draw into a bounce spell with their draw 14, because then you won't.

[Awaclus]

As long as they don't draw into a bounce spell with their draw 14, because then you won't.
Since when have they ran bounce spells? Sure, many people run them in the sideboard, but they can't possibly have a sideboard that has answers to every answer to their creatures.

[Star|Scream]

Since when have they ran bounce spells? Sure, many people run them in the sideboard, but they can't possibly have a sideboard that has answers to every answer to their creatures.

Are you playing against these decks? Do you read the SCG deck lists??

They all run bounce spells.


The way I see it, the deck has 4 points of attack that one would need to combat: Show w/ Gb, Show w/ Emrakul, Sneak w/ Grisel, Sneak w/ Emrakul

The only non-blue answer to all 4 is a resolved humility. Since most decks will have a hard time resolving humility by turn 3, it cannot be considered a reliable method to beat both SNT and Sneak attack, but, in theory it is an answer.

Everything else that has been discussed either beats one creature but loses to the other, or beats one enabler and loses to the other.

[frogczar]

Are you playing against these decks? Do you read the SCG deck lists??

They all run bounce spells.


The way I see it, the deck has 4 points of attack that one would need to combat: Show w/ Gb, Show w/ Emrakul, Sneak w/ Grisel, Sneak w/ Emrakul

The only non-blue answer to all 4 is a resolved humility. Since most decks will have a hard time resolving humility by turn 3, it cannot be considered a reliable method to beat both SNT and Sneak attack, but, in theory it is an answer.

Everything else that has been discussed either beats one creature but loses to the other, or beats one enabler and loses to the other.

QFT

I wish that all the defenders of Sneak Show as a "fair" deck that doesn't need anything banned from it would grasp this concept.

Not everyone runs counterspells nor wishes to. The answers that have been discussed are highly dubious and very narrow.

[wcm8]

It may have already been pointed out in this thread, but Reanimator.dec seems to be the best answer to SnT decks. It has the same number (or possibly even more) counters/discard, a slightly faster combo, and now it has been made pretty clear that Griselbrand is the de facto replacement for Jin Gitaxias. SnT is pretty much forced to go for the Sneak Attack route, or risk getting blown out by the Reanimator opponent dropping a Griselbrand -> Blazing Archon.

Unfortunately, this is pretty much a case of 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'.

Fortunately, Reanimator is slightly easier to hate out since every deck can play quality GY hate (and should be anyways due to the glut of decks that rely on GY interactions). I'd also argue that Reanimator is a 'fairer' combo deck to fight against -- they still generally need to resolve two spells to win, as opposed to SnT pretty much just needing to resolve one. Yeah, they can still t1 Entomb/Careful Study/other enabler, T2 Exhume/Reanimate/Animate Dead, but at least it feels like you lost to a combo and not a 2U Sorcery that says 'I win lol'.

[John Cox]

Has any one tried underworld dreams ?

[wcm8]

Has any one tried underworld dreams ?

This does nothing against Emrakul, and doesn't necessarily prevent the Griselbrand opponent from drawing at least 7 cards. Interesting idea, but doesn't seem to do enough -- black has better options imo.

[Erdvermampfa]

My proposal to solve the Griselbrand/Emrakul issue: BAN SHOW AND TELL!

[John Cox]

My proposal to solve the Griselbrand/Emrakul issue: BAN SHOW AND TELL!

That doesn't stop sneak attack and reanimate and eureka, it hardly weakens those strategies.

[Star|Scream]

That doesn't stop sneak attack and reanimate and eureka, it hardly weakens those strategies.

needle/revoker stop sneak attack when you don't have to worry about show and tell. Sneak attack is harder to get down as early as well. They need 4R to get it off on the same turn--generally leaving the enchantment vulnerable to enchantment hate for a turn. Krosan grip would be very good against just sneak attack/lotus petal/etc.

The other strategies you mentioned either already have hate against them (reanimator) or would require so much more additional set up that you couldn't throw spell pierce, brainstorm, ponder, misdirection, etc into the deck in order to protect your pieces.

[dontbiteitholmes]

what a ridiculous list of 'options'. You either counter Show and Tell or Sneak Attack on the stack or you lose to the Draw7 or 'Wipe your whole board'...Control magic..wtf



My proposal to solve the Griselbrand/Emrakul issue: BAN SHOW AND TELL!


http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14662-All-B-R-update-speculation.



QFT

I wish that all the defenders of Sneak Show as a "fair" deck that doesn't need anything banned from it would grasp this concept.

Not everyone runs counterspells nor wishes to. The answers that have been discussed are highly dubious and very narrow.

This thread is not for crying about Show and Tell being broken, I wish all the people who posted on this website would grasp this concept.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14662-All-B-R-update-speculation.

[Awaclus]

Are you playing against these decks? Do you read the SCG deck lists??
Yes, and I'm actively lurking the Sneak Attack thread too. Quite a lot of them run 2 Echoing Truth in the sideboard, and that's all.

[nedleeds]

Brainstorm is what is enabling all these decks to remain consistent in 4-9 round tournaments. It is what allows these decks to not pack to a duress effect or two. It is what allows these decks to run super low mana counts and still hit land drops.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Brainstorm is what is enabling all these decks to remain consistent in 4-9 round tournaments. It is what allows these decks to not pack to a duress effect or two. It is what allows these decks to run super low mana counts and still hit land drops.

Dude, get the fuck out of here.

Seriously, go play fucking Modern. This thread is called adapting to Griselbrand-Show and Tell decks not cry about your least favorite Legacy card. Here's a protip, no one here has the power to ban cards so why are you filling this thread with useless bullshit? There is a thread specifically for such talk, I would link to it for the 10th time but I feel like now I should just start linking you kids to MTGSalvation and hope you actually go there. Maybe the reason some people here seem to get continually stomped by certain decks is that they spend all their energy ruining any thread discussing how to play around those decks (seems counterproductive).

In the mean time Show and Tell and Griselbrand are still legal, so can we please get back to talking about answers to those cards? Where is PeterRotten when you need him?

[Koby]

I tested Sneak Show vs D&T and it was not very good matchup for the blue deck. Raw dog Karakas shuts off Show & Tell, and Revoker shuts off Sneak Attack and Griselbrand both. Add in Thalia and Wasteland, and it's a pretty poor matchup. Matchups like these want me to include Pyroclasm in the SB.

[Norm]

Yeah, they can still t1 Entomb/Careful Study/other enabler, T2 Exhume/Reanimate/Animate Dead, but at least it feels like you lost to a combo and not a 2U Sorcery that says 'I win lol'.

That 2U sorcery also needs something to be placed onto the battlefield, which you need to acquire beforehand. Entomb searches for any suitable creature for the current situation, then places it in your yard to be animated later. They're both equally powerful/unfair?, but Show and Tell isn't a one card combo.

[Star|Scream]

That 2U sorcery also needs something to be placed onto the battlefield, which you need to acquire beforehand. Entomb searches for any suitable creature for the current situation, then places it in your yard to be animated later. They're both equally powerful/unfair?, but Show and Tell isn't a one card combo.

No, but it's not quite a 2-card combo (like say painter/grindstone) either. It requires another card be in your hand, but that card doesn't have to resolve.

Think of it as a 2U Aether vial that is automatically set on 8 or 15, but you have to use it immediately.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I tested Sneak Show vs D&T and it was not very good matchup for the blue deck. Raw dog Karakas shuts off Show & Tell, and Revoker shuts off Sneak Attack and Griselbrand both. Add in Thalia and Wasteland, and it's a pretty poor matchup. Matchups like these want me to include Pyroclasm in the SB.

I've had a lot of success vs. Show/Tell with my new take on Belcher (found in new decks subforum). Belcher means that can't run out a S&T without risking giving me an uncounterable wincon. I also don't care about Misdirection and less S&T decks run Daze every day (for good reason). The only matches I've lost so far involved completely whiffing on draw 7's.

Seems like a growing number of decks are going to have something interesting to Show/Tell back from here on out (whether MD or SB) which makes 1/2 of their combo risky. Add to that the scariest deck for Sneak/Show to S&T against is Reanimator, which basically does the same thing they do but one sided, and I think we have seen the beginning of the end of SneakShow. In the mean time I still expect to play against plenty of Sneak/Show as it takes terrible bandwagon players quite a while to get the message sometimes.

[Koby]

I certainly hope it's not just me, but I don't normally cast SnT quickly unless it's Turn 1/2 on the play and I have protection backup (or into Griselbrand). SNT is sometimes a liability.

[rxavage]

I certainly hope it's not just me, but I don't normally cast SnT quickly unless it's Turn 1/2 on the play and I have protection backup (or into Griselbrand). SNT is sometimes a liability.

QFT

I learned this the hard way. I will cast a S&T to show in Sneak Attack more often than anything else.

[Koby]

QFT

I learned this the hard way. I will cast a S&T to show in Sneak Attack more often than anything else.

If you could put planeswalkers into play, I would run Show and Tell just to accelerate Jace TMS into play one turn sooner.

[rxavage]

If you could put planeswalkers into play, I would run Show and Tell just to accelerate Jace TMS into play one turn sooner.

For serious. I was half joking with my boy about putting Jace and Gris in the same deck.

[soiber2000]

I just want to point out that Storm Front is a cheap answer for both Emrakul and Griselbrand. It doesn't stop the hability but it is cheaper than most cards in this thread

[Koby]

That's awesome! Also, Kismet works.

[Worldslayer]

QFT

I wish that all the defenders of Sneak Show as a "fair" deck that doesn't need anything banned from it would grasp this concept.

Not everyone runs counterspells nor wishes to. The answers that have been discussed are highly dubious and very narrow.

Just to be perfectly clear, your complaint is primarily that nonblue decks have bad or worse combo matchups? Is that right? Because that's pretty much always happened. You guys got weapons vs. Storm in thalia and gaddock teeg, but before (and really even during) that it was still an absolutely nightmare matchup. Different cards, same archetype. Noneblue usually has a really, really good matchup vs. The fair decks. That's pretty much how Maverick even got in the spotlight (the format was pretty much nothing but fairs). As a tradeoff, you usually have a really, really bad matchup vs. Unfair decks. Your answers to unfair questions are worse than blue (and probably black) answers because your answers to fair questions are usually better. Nonblue decks are usually what combo decks prey upon. Blue decks are what nonblue decks prey upon. I'm sorry you usually wont win against ANT with zoo, but that same ANT probably lost to the merfolk deck you ate for breakfast two rounds ago. What's the problem?

[mini1337s]

That's awesome! Also, Kismet works.
Hey Koby,
I know you've been playing SnT a bit (good luck finding those Korean cards :P), so I was wondering; is Kismet a real card versus your deck? Seems fine versus Sneak Attack, but not as strong versus SnT. Getting hit with Ann 6 still sucks if it happens a turn later.

[Koby]

Hey Koby,
I know you've been playing SnT a bit (good luck finding those Korean cards :P), so I was wondering; is Kismet a real card versus your deck? Seems fine versus Sneak Attack, but not as strong versus SnT. Getting hit with Ann 6 still sucks if it happens a turn later.

No, it's kinda bad against Show & Tell. However, 1 Karakas counters Show & Tell. It's surprisingly easy to counter S&T strategy when it drops Legends.

Sneak Attack is the real strength of the Sneak Show deck. Winning Now is always better than Winning Next Turn. Grislebrand makes it that much more consistent and nearly guarantees a one turn kill.

Play 4 Karakas, and stop worrying about Sneak Show and Reanimator in the same push.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Add Suppression Field to the list of possible answers to some of Sneak/Show threats. Grizzlebees becomes a bit costlier, as does Sneak Attack. Just, um, don't run fetches or something.

Also, an Enchantress-specific question: is now the time for maindeck Humility? Not only does it have game against S&T, but it might not be completely terrible against Maverick (only pretty bad) seeing as every one of their critters tends to punch at a power equal to or greater than their CMC in addition to packing nasty abilities. You just hope they don't play a Stoneforge first. And the less said against RUGDelver, the better.

Thinking it might be a better idea to sling Seas and Rituals though...

[mini1337s]

No, it's kinda bad against Show & Tell. However, 1 Karakas counters Show & Tell. It's surprisingly easy to counter S&T strategy when it drops Legends.

Sneak Attack is the real strength of the Sneak Show deck. Winning Now is always better than Winning Next Turn. Grislebrand makes it that much more consistent and nearly guarantees a one turn kill.

Play 4 Karakas, and stop worrying about Sneak Show and Reanimator in the same push.
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llediot7pF1qe2e60.jpg
Sigh... $60 uncommons :)

[S1N1STER]

I tested Sneak Show vs D&T and it was not very good matchup for the blue deck. Raw dog Karakas shuts off Show & Tell, and Revoker shuts off Sneak Attack and Griselbrand both. Add in Thalia and Wasteland, and it's a pretty poor matchup. Matchups like these want me to include Pyroclasm in the SB.

Currently my two legacy decks that I play are D&T and Sneak and Show. So when I brought my Sneak and Show to a GPT this weekend and saw someone playing D&T I just kept praying that I wouldn't have to play him since I know how that would have probably gone. Can't show and tell in anything since there are 4x karakas and 3x mangara in the deck, the revokers in the main can also hit the lotus petals in addition to the griselbrand or sneak attack, which can be significant when combined with the ports, wastelands and Thalia's. Luckily I never did have to play him.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Add Suppression Field to the list of possible answers to some of Sneak/Show threats. Grizzlebees becomes a bit costlier, as does Sneak Attack. Just, um, don't run fetches or something.

Also, an Enchantress-specific question: is now the time for maindeck Humility? Not only does it have game against S&T, but it might not be completely terrible against Maverick (only pretty bad) seeing as every one of their critters tends to punch at a power equal to or greater than their CMC in addition to packing nasty abilities. You just hope they don't play a Stoneforge first. And the less said against RUGDelver, the better.

Thinking it might be a better idea to sling Seas and Rituals though...

I think now is the time to not be playing Enchantress. The deck is not so hot at dealing with Emrakul off a Sneak Attack. That was always one of my least favorite matchups.