M13 Spoiler Discussion

[wcm8]

Jace’s Phantasm U
Creature – Illusion (U)
Flying
Jace’s Phantasm gets +4/+4 as long as an opponent has ten or more cards in his or her graveyard.
1/1

Well. As if blue didn't already have an aggressively costed, evasive, situationally-triggered creature.

The reverse threshold is bit harder to turn on, but many Legacy games will get to the point where the opponent just naturally has 10+ cards in the GY due to fetchlands, counterspells, cantrips, and so forth. And of course, a deck could be built to use stuff like Thought Scour, Glimpse the Unthinkable, Archive Trap, or even using Vision Charm (along with Phyrexian Dreadnought) to accelarate into multiple blue "Tombstalkers".

While you're building towards it being a 5/5, it does have flying so it can at least start pinging the opponent as a 1/1, whereas Delver is often ground-stalled until he flips. Additionally, once the growth requirement is met, the guy starts out at 5/5 rather than requiring an upkeep to flip into its final form.

I think this card could be a potential trump in the RUG mirror. Aside from post-SB REBs and Submerges, RUG has no answer and this guy is bigger than every other creature in the deck. Perhaps 1 or 2 copies in a tempo deck not devoted towards growing it could work.

I could also see him being utilized as a singleton in UWx-Blade decks, because it can become an amazing late-game bomb as well as a mediocre jitte/sword-carrier if needed early on.

Or you could use Sword of Body and Mind to ensure it lands as a dragon.

[insert obvious statement about it being blue and pitching to Force here]

I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss this guy, but at the same time I'd avoid over-hyping it. After all, Lorescale Coatl was predicted to be OPed, and it has seen virtually no real Legacy play. I think it's at least worth discussing.

[bowvamp]

This card is sweet... for blue. I mean you probably don't even have to play anything to support it. It's sweet because it's aggressively costed and connects reliably.

[troopatroop]

The fact that it's an Illusion is also relevant. Awesome little card, although 10 cards is quite lategame, so its role as strictly a "beater" is sorta questionable. That being said, 1/1 flying for U isn't THAT bad...

[GradStudentGuy]

A U/B Tempo deck with hymn and targeted discard may play it as 2-3x for late game beats.

[Fossil4182]

This card, while potentially powerful, seems to be the essences of a "win more" card for Legacy. Delver of Secerts works because the trigger matches up harmoniously with the shells that support it (RUG and UR tempo decks). Additioanlly, using cantrips to set up the trigger also forwards thoses decks respective game plan provided adding value.

Jace's Phantasm, while potentially bigger, requires you to play cards with the intent of filling your opponents graveyard. Thought Scour, while helpful, only mills two. The rest of the cards one could use to enable this are far too narrow or do not offer enough utility (thinking of Vision Charm).

Discard decks could be an option (BUG or UB), but I still think I'd rather have Delver because it comes online quicker.

[Antonius]

Discard decks could be an option (BUG or UB), but I still think I'd rather have Delver because it comes online quicker.

I'd rather have green sun's zenith but that doesn't mean I cut Llanowar elves.

This is starting to get fucking stupid. Good to see that Wizard's color choice rubrick is still the same. Is the card good? Then we must make it blue.

[catmint]

Interesting.... 10 is a lot though. Feels like it could push an "all-flyer" Grixis Tempo deck curving out at BB/1BB. Probably Thoughtscour goes up in value for this deck. People reporting it is decent vs. miracle and the utility for tombstalker is obvious.

[Aggro_zombies]

Who said blue wasn't the creature color?

Anyway, the first two points of comparison that jump to mind are Nimble Mongoose and Tombstalker; the former because it and the Phantasm require setup to pay off and the latter because they're both beefy fliers that can be undercosted via the graveyard. However...

Versus Mongoose: Phantasm's payoff is certainly bigger, but it doesn't have built-in protection and so is vulnerable to a lot of things pre-"thresh" and still vulnerable to Swords/Plow post-"thresh". That makes it less attractive to control decks - the sort of decks that want to go long and therefore will reliably see ten cards in the opponent's graveyard - because it's a threat that requires setup and then constant protection. There's also the problem that Mongoose isn't the fastest threat to get going; powering it up takes time, and at ten cards, Phantasm will take longer. Delver is smaller but requires less time to smash face and will thus do more damage in the course of a typical game.

Versus Tombstalker: Phantasm always costs one and will probably see play in the same sort of UB/x disruptive decks running Tombstalker, but Tombstalker is far easier to control because it cues off your graveyard. It also helps that Tombstalker is always a 5/5 and therefore less vulnerable to removal than the Phantasm, particularly versus a deck like RUG that fills its own graveyard quickly.

Overall I think the card is fair and unlikely to see play, except for perhaps one or two decks. At the end of the day, its support shell just overlaps with Tombstalker's way too much, but Tombstalker is the easier-to-use card and will thus edge it out quite often.

[colo]

Tombstalker's also better as it syngerizes with/isn't affected by Deed, Explosives, Chalice, etc.

[HokusSchmokus]

Haven't seen any spoiles yet, but does this thing have the illusion keyword from last block? If so, not Legacy playable.

[Aggro_zombies]

Haven't seen any spoiles yet, but does this thing have the illusion keyword from last block? If so, not Legacy playable.
No. (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=131960&d=1338849166)

[Erdvermampfa]

What a surprise that it's blue.

[alderon666]

Sideboard against Dredge! You heard it here first!

[Gheizen64]

It's cute, and i'm annoyed that it is blue instead of white or black/red (with fear), but thinking about it a bit more it isn't that good.


Meanwhile, red get a strictly worse Looter (2R, discard, tap, draw 1 1/1). Oh my. The anti-power creeps on red creatures is getting more amazing by the day. Yes, we got guide, but every color (except black i suppose) has got amazing creatures in the meanwhile, and red still play Lavamancer and Bolt was too good to be reprinted again. Don't even get me started on Red walkers.

[Valarne]

Seems not bad. In a UB Team America-type shell it could simply be a two off alongside Delver, Tombstalker and 1-2 V Cliques:

4 Delver
4 Tombstalker
2 V Clique
2 Jace's Phantasm

4 Duress-effects
4 Hymn
yadda
yadda
lands.

Whether it is good off, I'm not sure. The idea of Jitte really helps to make the evasion valuable. I'm sure it'll see some marginal play.

[eq.firemind]

5/5 flyer that can be pitched to Force of Will and flipped off Dark Confidant? Are you serious?

[tsabo_tavoc]

Annoyed it is blue, glad it does not boost Brainstorm, pleased it is Uncommon.

Also, Sword of Body and Mind, anyone?

[Awaclus]

This is starting to get fucking stupid. Good to see that Wizard's color choice rubrick is still the same. Is the card good? Then we must make it blue.
It's obvious why WotC has been careful with green creatures ever since the printing of GSZ, and green still got Scavenging Ooze. I also somewhat understand them not printing good aggressively costed red creatures because the current Standard environment is pretty slow, and red still got Vexing Devil. White has been getting good cards, such as Thalia. Black has been getting playable cards, such as Surgical Extraction and Dismember (though they aren't black in practice, but in theory they are). Some new artifacts are playable in Legacy, too.

I think this card should have been black, but blue has been getting some seriously weak spells lately, so they have to balance it out with creatures. Too bad it means that in Legacy and Vintage, blue will soon have the best creatures and the best spells, but it's not like WotC is doing this intentionally - they most likely just couldn't care less.

[Malakai]

This card will see fringe sideboard play before players realize that it does not do anything they want it to do, and then we'll never see it again. Sell your foils asap.

[Finn]

Yup. If you are fine with having Flying Men 80% of the time it is on the battlefield, go for it. Otherwise, you are making a deck around a creature that is only a medium evasive beater.

[Fossil4182]

I'd rather have green sun's zenith but that doesn't mean I cut Llanowar elves.

I fail to see how that makes any sense relative to what I posted. BUG or UB would be able to fill an opponents graveyard faster, but its still not coming on line at the earliest until turn four or five while Delver can come online as early as turn two. Even under the best case scenario the Delver math works out like this:

Delver Math (Turn Two)

Turn/Damage
2/3
3/6
4/9
5/12
6/15
7/18
8/21

Trying to give Jace's Phantasm the best case hand with a UB shell, the math is still terrible. Consider having an opener with three land (Underground Sea, Swamp, Wasteland), Jace's Phantasm, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, and Thought Scour.

Turn One: Underground Sea, Jace's Phantasm

Turn Two: Attack with Phantasm (Total Damage: 1), play swamp, cast Thoughtseize (opponent's graveyard = 1)

Turn Three: Attack with Phantasm (Total Damage: 2), play Wasteland, cast Hymn to Tourach, Wasteland a non-basic (opponent's graveyard = 4)

Turn Four: Attack with Phantasm (Total Damage: 3), cast Thought Scour (Opponent's Graveyard = 6)

In addition to using Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Wasteland and Thought Scour to fill your opponents graveyard, you could top deck into Force of Will and a creature removal spell, resolve them both and your opponent would still be only at eight cards in their graveyard meaning they would of needed to fetch twice or cast two additional spells. Is it possible: yes. Is it probable or worth the investment, probably not. The aforementioned is a better case scenario assuming Jace's Phantasm comes online by turn five. In such a case the math looks like this:

Jace's Phantasm Math (Turn Five)

Turn/Damage
2/1
3/2
4/3
5/8
6/13
7/18
8/23

Both creatures, unaided, still result in the same turn clock. I'll concede there would be games that Jace's Phantasm comes online before turn five, but those would be far and few between; I'd rather take Delver.


This is starting to get fucking stupid. Good to see that Wizard's color choice rubrick is still the same. Is the card good? Then we must make it blue.

So when they start stacking one of the other four colors, are you going to get pissed at them for making that the best color? The blue bashing is irrelevant and pointless. If blue wasn't the best color, some other color would be and the boards would be filled with people clamoring about how terrible [color that's not blue] is and how Wizards always prints good cards for [color that's not blue].

[TsumiBand]

Guys this card is dumb. If you're milling your opponent, why confuse the gameplan by only milling them ten deep and then dropping a dude. Compare to Serra Ascendant, a similarly conditional beater that actually keeps itself relevant by lifelinking for 6 when it gets big.

If it's in a deck with Sword of Body and Mind, you're probably playing SFM, and if you're winning by playing the Sword, you're winning because you're playing the Sword, not because you're attaching it to a 5/5. There's no chance that this card expresses itself over Delver.

Look at Tarmogoyf. Now back at me. Now look at Tarmogoyf; now back at me. It's going to be okay.

[Mark Sun]

<stuff>

Except the damage increments are not as consistent as Delver beats.

That said, hilarious against Dredge.

[wcm8]

A few points: I don't think if this guy sees serious competitive play it will be as a 4-of. I'd imagine he'd be included as 1-2 copies for late game beats.

The advantage over Delver is that once the threshold is achieved, he lands as an immediate threat that is out of bolt-range and can trade favorable with Goyfs and fend off Batterskull tokens.

The 'best case' (though obviously unrealistic and card disadvantageous) would be to land him turn 1, and also cast Archive Trap in response to your opponent's t1 fetch/GSZ. This is magical Christmas land of course.

I think the comparison to Tombstalker is appropriate - you're generally not bringing one out until turn 5+~, and in the mean time you've been disrupting your opponent's lines of play. The advantage over TS is that it's easier to play multiples if needed.

[Dark Ritual]

The techiest card against dredge, 4 turn clock or if you drop dubs they'll be dead in 2 turns.

I agree with this guy not being a 4 of, seems like a good 1 of or 2 of in legacy for those situations where both players are in topdeck mode and bam you draw a 5/5 flier for U.

Sad to see blue getting the best beaters though, really stupid on wizards part.

I love how this guy is basically the reversed threshold creature. Neat design, but I hope it comes back to bite wizards because blue shouldn't be getting 5/5 fliers for U EVER.

Overall I'm not sure what impact this guy will have on legacy, maybe he'll be good in some UB shell of some sort. Seems pretty good with hymn and obviously thought scour.

[Arianrhod]

I feel that if it will see play anywhere, it'll be in some kind of hybridized Team America/Delver list, replacing Tombstalker. Maybe running Delver, a couple of these, Bob, and Goyf, and then tempo spells.....that seems playable/decent. Also, it feels awful against dredge, because they're going to have Narcomoebas. If you honestly think that they won't have a couple of Narcos in the 4 turns it would take you to beat them down with this thing, you're crazy, or just plain lucky like a fox.

As far as the color pie theory of the card is concerned, blue does have somewhat of a history of getting fat dudes with drawbacks....going all the way back to Serendib, although more recently things like the Phantasmal cycle, Dragon esp., have been printed. The bigger issue IMO is that they've become too cheap. If Delver was 1U, I would be perfectly fine with it. I feel similarly about this card, although I'm not sure what I would cost it. More than just U, for sure.

[Koby]

Obv this card is going to be overpowered. It's got Jace in its name.

Still waiting on interesting and playable red creatures ... *holds breath*

[metamet]

Sideboard in RUG mirrors. Done.

/still wouldn't do it.

[jrw1985]

My first reaction: :eek::eek::eek:

Then I took 5 seconds to think about it and realized that this card is only good against Dredge, and dredge has free flying blockers.

How would you even use this card? Would you put it in a Mill deck? No. You'd put Mill cards in a Mill deck. Aggro deck? Seems to me that a lot of aggro decks win well before 1/6 of the opposing deck's library goes in the graveyard.

There's basically 3 ways to make this guy turn on:
1. Your opponent Dredges.
2. You Mill your opponent.
3. You play a tight control game that stalls out the game long enough to get 10 cards in your opponent's grave through counter, discard, removal, or sweepers.

It seems the best bet for abusing Phantasm is as a finisher for a control deck.

[Aggro_zombies]

*holds breath*
Oh no, he's turning blue! Now he's broken and overpowered and warping the format! Ban Brainstorm!

[Einherjer]

I think you guys are missing one important point! This is no Delver. This is no T1 Aggro-machine. Its a mid-lategamecard. I believe a creature-base like this, would be pretty good for my Team America:

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Jace's Bird
3(2) Tombstalker
2(1) Vendilion Clique

In the first few turns you fire out Delver and Discard/Removal/(Stifle)/Wasteland and so on, and then after 4-5-6 turns you start putting the big birds on the battlefield...

I think this could actually work. Testing will tell.

Greetings

[joemauer]

3 Jace's Bird

Greetings

Beating someone with Jace's Bird sounds dirty.

[Tacosnape]

Jace's Phantasm is not a card. I can't believe there's even a thread for this.

He's not a good early drop. He's not good combined with cute mill cards because cute mill cards are bad. He's not good against Dredge because a four turn clock against Dredge with 10+ cards in their yard is usually at least two turns too slow. He's not as good of a midgame draw as Snapcaster Mage. And he's worse than Delver.

Not gonna lie, though. Glimpse the Unthinkable? Funny, funny stuff.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Heh, I love overreaction threads. This card is bad. I would love for it to see play against a RUG delver who didn't draw delver and only got goyf/nimbles. Sort of a "I dare you to hit threshhold, bitch" sort of game.

Nope, this card won't be useful in basically any deck, unless it's in a meta of 50% rug delver 50% dredge and you would rather not play graveyard hate because you think it's more fun to be a badass and race them.



Overall I think the card is fair and unlikely to see play, except for perhaps one or two decks.

Just wanted to point out, however much I always agree with you, that this statement really doesn't mean what you want it to. Delver only sees play in one deck and everyone can agree it's nuts.

[dsck]

Delver only sees play in one deck

Theres like 5 different decks around it.

UGR Thresh
UWB Tempo blade http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8341&iddeck=60778
UR Delver
Grixis tempo
UB tempo

and I have lately even seen bant builts with it.

[Aggro_zombies]

Just wanted to point out, however much I always agree with you, that this statement really doesn't mean what you want it to. Delver only sees play in one deck and everyone can agree it's nuts.
What I wanted to say was, "It won't see play at all," since it's not a very good card. But I decided to qualify the statement with the second clause because I'm fairly certain some Team America/UB Tempo players will try it out for a while, and some of them might decide to keep it. Personally, I don't think you should run this card over Delver in pretty much any situation; even against Dredge, you're better off with a Crypt or a Relic than this thing because they can very easily race your 5/5 (especially when they're already at 10+ cards milled).

There's a lot of cards that people play when they shouldn't. I mean, people played Snapcaster in RUG Tempo for months despite how inappropriate that card is for that deck, so I imagine people will try this card for a while.

[Lord Seth]

Just wanted to point out, however much I always agree with you, that this statement really doesn't mean what you want it to. Delver only sees play in one deck and everyone can agree it's nuts.There's more than one. Canadian Threshold is certainly the most popular, but there's UR Delver (which took #1 and #2 at the Birmingham SCG), Team America, Team Portugal, and a few fringe builds like that Delver Zoo deck that took 2nd place at Bazaar of Moxen.

[Aggro_zombies]

There's more than one. Canadian Threshold is certainly the most popular, but there's UR Delver (which took #1 and #2 at the Birmingham SCG), Team America, Team Portugal, and a few fringe builds like that Delver Zoo deck that took 2nd place at Bazaar of Moxen.
These decks are all broadly similar, though: blue-based tempo decks with a lot of spells and relatively few creatures that try to keep the opponent off-balance with a bunch of one-for-ones while killing him with a fast clock. Compare that to, say, Tarmogoyf, which at one point saw play in decks as varied as Zoo and Counterbalance Control.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Theres like 5 different decks around it.

UGR Thresh
UWB Tempo blade http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8341&iddeck=60778
UR Delver
Grixis tempo
UB tempo

and I have lately even seen bant builts with it.

I guess it's fair that people are picking on that statement when I did the same thing to Aggro_zombies'. I meant it in a different light though, in that AZ's statement did not preclude the possibility of new card being used in competitive decks (which is what I thought he was intending, but misspoke). The card is bad, we both agree on that, but what I believed he was trying to say is "No good deck will play it."

Now that's the difference between 1-2 and 0, which is in most people's eyes (mathematicians, physicists, etc) is a much bigger difference than 1 to ~3. Delver is good, it's in, I'll concede, 2 deck types now. I don't count esper blade + delver or other fringe decks that throw him in there because it isn't in a good portion of those decks. It's in RUG delver and UR burn delver (very similar decks, actually, but I guess people don't like me lumping them together).

My point is that I assumed AZ wanted to say new card is bad and won't be used, while he merely accounted for the possibility of people using it incorrectly to some success for a while, until the new card sheen wore off and they came to their senses.

[hi-val]

This sort of reminds me of Dragonmaster Outcast. The card has a lot of interesting potential.

You can also think of it this way: this is like a card that's a 5/5 flier for 5U, but says "when this comes into play, untap 5 lands." That is, it's really undercosted if you view it as a finisher. If you're playing a UW control deck like Thopter/Sword, this is an engaging card. You can play this guy and not tap out, which means that you can hold up mana for counters and removal and Top spins.

Ultimately, it probably won't do much in Legacy, but it will still probably impact smaller formats. That you can turn this guy on with Tome Scours in Standard is going to be a pretty good deal.

[lordofthepit]

Useful and very undercosted, and it might see play, but I don't think it will see a whole lot, much like Scute Mob or Dragonmaster Outcast. Having a consistently strong creature in the early game is much better than having an occasionally overpowered one in the mid-to-late game.

One advantage of Phantasm is that it immediately comes into play as a 5/5 flyer if the conditions are met, rather than waiting for the upkeep. That, of course, and pitching to FOW.

[Tacosnape]

FWIW, I do think this is a decent little Commander guy. Either he'll be Skullclamp/Force fodder, or he'll be a big fat dude for one blue. Not earthshattering, but pretty clutch for the cost.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Oh no, he's turning blue! Now he's broken and overpowered and warping the format! Ban Brainstorm!

It's cool, in a minute he'll go from blue to green, bringing his power level back down to normal (probably because oxygen depletion is like a -4/-4 counter.)

EDIT: That said, mediocre creature is still only mediocre, even if he flagrantly disregards what the color pie is supposed to do. Compare him to Scute Mob, in that once you've parsed out what he actually does, there are only about 1 or 2 imaginable decks that would really want to maindeck him. And he's not going to elevate Mill above the scrubby tier it's currently on.

[Hanni]

I think this thing has some minor potential in some sort of Team America/Junk hybrid. It's obviously better than Scute Mob, since hitting 5 lands is alot harder than the opponent having 10 cards in the yard, and he has flying.

Something along the lines of heavy early game disruption, where you could drop this guy down at some point during that as a 1/1 flier that pings for a few like a pre-Thresh Goose would, and then grow to 5/5 a few turns later. Filling an opponent's graveyard isn't so bad if you're hitting them with Wasteland, discard, maybe countering a few of their spells, maybe killing a couple of their creatures, etc.

Obviously this thing in no way compares to Delver, but I think it is somewhat comparable to Tombstalker. It has the potential to come online roughly around the time as Tombstalker would (situation depending), doesn't have the same disynergy with Goose/Goyf, and is castable in multiples. The fact that it's easier on the manabase at :u: vs :b::b: and the fact that it pitches to FoW is gravy. It can also come down pre-"thresh" in certain situations, where a Tombstalker would be dead in hand.

Interesting card. It's not overpowered or anything that should be hyped up, but I think it has more potential than everyone is giving it credit for.

[DragoFireheart]

He'll find a home in some Tempo deck like RuG Tempo or Team America. Pretty decent, but not overpowered.

[xfxf]

Just like Temporal Mastery, I think this card has enough promise of great power levels to trigger curiosity and awe, but is conditional enough to be on the brink of competitive playable. Cards like Vexing Devil, Temporal Mastery, Jace's Phantasm make me think that Wizards is mastering the art of marketable card design and can now think beyond cool Angels and Vampires to increase sales.

Edit: In terms having a marketable appeal, I still miss generic fantasy creatures like Orcs, Minotaurs, Dwarves and Elven Riders. I guess WoW killed the flavor of those for the new generation, but that's another rant.

[Tammit67]

He'll find a home in some Tempo deck like RuG Tempo or Team America. Pretty decent, but not overpowered.

I can see the day where this guy brings tombstalker back into the spotlight.

Valuetown.

Will not see play.

[Vacrix]

Granted, this card is a bit harder to flip than, say Delver, but combine this with Vision Charm and whatever else your opponent might put into their yard like Fetches, lands that you Waste, creatures that you kill and spells that you counter. Team America does all of that stuff rather nicely. The advantage of playing this guy too is that, as hi-val was saying, you don't have to tap out to play your finisher. That gives you more mana to protect him from removal, play additional disruption, or play a cantrip.

Also, I really don't think this guy can be compared to Delver. Delver is an aggressive, early threat and flips into a 3/2 flyer on the 2nd or (if you miss a flip) 3rd turn. This guy comes down in the mid/late game as a huge threat where Delver might not be. Occasionally you might see this guy flip early against a deck that has to fetch 2 or 3 times, lose a creature/spell or two to your disruption and such followed by a well placed Vision Charm. Otherwise, its U for a 5/5 that flips way better than Tombstalker with Confidant.

I think in UB/x Team America esque variants are going to love this guy. Its not something you can easily port to UR(G) variants but I think thats a good thing because UB/x Tempo hasn't been played that much lately. Keep in mind. Its not like a Team America player is going to drop their win condition (Tombstalker/Goyf/Dreadnought) within the first few turns of the game. This card isn't a Delver. I'd say its more of a Tombstalker variant than anything else and its going to get dropped on like turn 5/6 after you have played some disruption, killed some of your opponent's creatures, countered some spells, perhaps wasted some creatures, Deed the board?????, etc. Also, when you drop this guy you don't have to spend 1G like Goyf, XBB like Tombstalker, or spend 2 cards like Dreadnought. He just comes down for a mere U with the condition that your opponent has lost a lot of cards to your disruption. It will be active faster against decks that play fetches, cantrips, ie. the Tempo mirror.

Based on the discussion though, I think people have mistaken this guy for Delver 2.0 when he is really Tombstalker 2.0.


EDIT:
Also... this:

Obviously this thing in no way compares to Delver, but I think it is somewhat comparable to Tombstalker. It has the potential to come online roughly around the time as Tombstalker would (situation depending), doesn't have the same disynergy with Goose/Goyf, and is castable in multiples. The fact that it's easier on the manabase at :u: vs :b::b: and the fact that it pitches to FoW is gravy. It can also come down pre-"thresh" in certain situations, where a Tombstalker would be dead in hand.

Interesting card. It's not overpowered or anything that should be hyped up, but I think it has more potential than everyone is giving it credit for.
The fact that its easier on the mana base, pitches to FoW, and works well with Goose/Goyf are things I've overlooked. It seriously has enormous potential in the BUG Tempo archetype.

[xfxf]

After reading your take Vacrix I think it makes sense and I might have misevaluated the card. It will require some testing to see if U vs BB is enough to compensate the 2 extra card requirement (and in the opponents graveyard) and the fact that the opponent can shrink it in contrast to Tombstalker. But even with that I'm still behind my previous statement of "on the brink of competitive playable" :smile:

Edit: On a personal note, this card makes me think why the hell Wizards would come up with a clumsy mechanic as Flipping and wouldn't just write "At the beginning of your upkeep look at the top card of your library. You may reveal that card. If an instant or sorcery card is revealed this way Delver of Secrets becomes a 3/2 Insectile Abbration creature with Flying" Just like that you know.

[Vacrix]

Because most cards that flip actually turn into something that would require too much text for just one card. So they just said 'hey what if we use the back?'

[JeroenC]

Edit: On a personal note, this card makes me think why the hell Wizards would come up with a clumsy mechanic as Flipping and wouldn't just write "At the beginning of your upkeep look at the top card of your library. You may reveal that card. If an instant or sorcery card is revealed this way Delver of Secrets becomes a 3/2 Insectile Abbration creature with Flying" Just like that you know.

Cause they came up with Werewolves first (who need the flipping mechanic) and Delver is a horror trope that makes good and pretty clean use of flipping. In other sets, he'd probably get a +1/+1 counter and flying (and the ability wouldn't trigger again if he already had counters).

[Hof]

Because most cards that flip actually turn into something that would require too much text for just one card. So they just said 'hey what if we use the back?'
And nobody answered...

I saw some SCG videos, and they actually play with those checklists? Eew.


I think Jace's Phantasm could be quite strong because it swings for 1 with evasion even when the condition isn't met, which is relevant in a tempo deck. If it has to attack two or three times for 1 and only gets in once for 5 after that, it is still an average of 2+ damage per turn.
Consider this card in the Ugr Threshold mirror. Wow.
Or against Dredge: T1 Delver. T2 flip Delver and attack, cast 2xPhantasm. T3 attack + 1 bolt = 19 damage.

[Infinitium]

Which gives dredge what, 3 turns to dump their library and kill you? I'd rather have crypt.

Conditional beater is too conditional, nothing to see here.

[Hof]

Depending on the dice roll and whether or not the Dredge player uses Coliseum or City for mana, he gets 2 or 3 turns to kill you in that scenario, yes. If he doesn't kill you, he is dead. This is blindingly fast for a non-combo deck like Ugr Thresh. Obviously this is an optimized draw, but my point is that a fast clock matters when you are playing tempo decks against combo decks. And we could still have Crypt. I am not talking about replacing Crypt with this thing. But the Phantasm has wider uses, like when your opponent plays with another conditional creature, I don't know, say, Nimble Mongoose, would you rather have Crypt or a 5/5 flyer for one blue?

It seems bad against Grim Lavamancer, Tombstalker, and Relic of Progenitus, though.

[Vacrix]

Sometimes a well placed Wasteland or a countered draw spell can slow Dredge down significantly and force them to slow roll. If you can pull that off as the BUG Tempo player, than an early Jace's Phantasm is a pretty savage clock. It might not be the greatest way to beat Dredge but if you already play them maindeck because your build supports them, than I can see it helping the Dredge match.

[Tammit67]

It seems bad against Grim Lavamancer, Tombstalker, and Relic of Progenitus, though.

Also ooze, snapcaster, loam. You know, cards that already see play

[Aggro_zombies]

Sometimes a well placed Wasteland or a countered draw spell can slow Dredge down significantly and force them to slow roll. If you can pull that off as the BUG Tempo player, than an early Jace's Phantasm is a pretty savage clock. It might not be the greatest way to beat Dredge but if you already play them maindeck because your build supports them, than I can see it helping the Dredge match.
Unless you have literally no good sideboard cards for Dredge, I'd be siding out my maindeck Phantasms for graveyard hate under the assumption that a Crypt or Relic is going to do me more good than a 5/5 that will end the game two turns after the Dredge player does.

[Hof]

Also ooze, snapcaster, loam. You know, cards that already see play
Ahh true, Ooze is amazing.
But even if Ooze is being played, Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Snapcaster, etc. are still being played. Phantasm is just another card that feeds on graveyards.

[Michael Keller]

Or against Dredge: T1 Delver. T2 flip Delver and attack, cast 2xPhantasm. T3 attack + 1 bolt = 19 damage.

If someone dropped this against me turn one, two or three I'd fist-pump mightily inside.

Just sayin', is all.

[Darkenslight]

Or against Dredge: T1 Delver. T2 flip Delver and attack, cast 2xPhantasm. T3 attack + 1 bolt = 19 damage.

No, I'd take the much slower clock of:

T1: Delver
T2: flip Delver, attack, Phantasm and Cage
T3: swing, stuff, win.

[millerd33]

He will go into Edric EDH decks faster than a bell clapper in a goose's ass.

[Barook]

Let's make this the M13 spoiler thread.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132166

Most likely too expensive at 4 mana without any built-in protection, but the offensive potential isn't too bad, especially with Lingering Souls and other token generators.

You sit back and enjoy your defense while you swing with a huge Angel.

[Gheizen64]

Mmh, 4/3 flier with good abilities for 2WW? I'll try her somewhere in some deck with white and ancient tombs, but i'm guessing she'll end subpar.

[GradStudentGuy]

The new angel is playable in maverick. It can come down on turn three off a noble hierarch and attacking for seven is nothing to sneeze at.

[Infinitium]

Elderscale Wurm 4GGG
Creature - Wurm
Trample
When Elderscale Wurm enters the battlefield, if your life total is less than 7, your life total becomes 7.
As long as you have 7 or more life, damage that would reduce your life total to less than 7 reduces it to 7 instead.
7/7

Hey look, an actually playable Wurm. Or at the very least a Green Platinum whatever should Natural Order be a thing again. I wouldn't hold my breath for that angel though, at 4cc creatures need to more than just beat unless they are Progenitus.

[Shawon]

<3 Armageddon-type cards

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAG_M13/Worldfire.jpg

[Tacosnape]

So this and Vela, the Night Clad in some kind of Grixis Commander deck?

[Aggro_zombies]

<3 Armageddon-type cards

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAG_M13/Worldfire.jpg
Oh look, the Wacky Red Chaos Card (TM) of the set. Good to see it's as unplayable as ever.

[TsumiBand]

Oh look, the Wacky Red Chaos Card (TM) of the set. Good to see it's as unplayable as ever.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=108915&type=card

WHERE IS UR GOD NAO

[nedleeds]

Blazing Shoal?

[Phoenix Ignition]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132166


Thigh-high leggings with sandals? Wtf?

[Koby]

Query: "when ~ leaves the battlefield" + "deal damage"

Results: 0

:frown:

[jrw1985]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132166


Gwen Stefani

[Aggro_zombies]

Query: "when ~ leaves the battlefield" + "deal damage"

Results: 0

:frown:
Perilous Myr?

EDIT: Oh, wait, never mind. Vela the Night-Clad.

EDIT 2: How is Rift Bolt a Wacky Red Chaos Card (TM)? I was thinking of shit like Confusion in the Ranks or Scrambleverse.

[AngryTroll]

Perilous Myr?

EDIT: Oh, wait, never mind. Vela the Night-Clad.

EDIT 2: How is Rift Bolt a Wacky Red Chaos Card (TM)? I was thinking of shit like Confusion in the Ranks or Scrambleverse.

Suspend Rift Bolt, cast Wacky Red Chaos Card to exile everything and set everyone's life to 1, go.

[(nameless one)]

What about Keldon Marauder with that massive burn spell?

PS. How hard is it to ramp to :6::r::r::r: in Modern?

[Aggro_zombies]

Suspend Rift Bolt, cast Wacky Red Chaos Card to exile everything and set everyone's life to 1, go.
Oh, right. I completely misunderstood that.

Well, you could also win via Oblivion Ring on your own Near-Death Experience or Barren Glory.

[Gheizen64]

I like how red has become the color for overcosted chaos shitty cards. More Goblin Game because we all love being the stupid color.

[whienot]

Blazing Shoal?

You know that was the fist thing that I thought of.

But, there's Spellweaver Helix and something like Flame Jab or Cabal Therapy to imprint on it. It's a lot of work to assemble and likely not as good as Quiet Speculation into Army of the Damned and 2x Cabal Therapy. We all see how much play that sees.

Also, Red Stax shell. Amiright?

[(nameless one)]

I know this is what Red is lacking so it's good to see this card:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132229&d=1339536160

[Tacosnape]

Wild Guess seems pretty solid. Would be incredible if it were 1R instead of RR.

Also, I think I want to cast Worldfire after Oblivion Ringing my own Spellshock.

[majikal]

So, since discarding a card is a cost, you can't cast this if it's the only card in your hand, correct?

[Phoenix Ignition]

So, since discarding a card is a cost, you can't cast this if it's the only card in your hand, correct?

Yes.

[rufus]

Night's Whisper >> Wild Guess and doesn't see much play.

Regarding Worldfire, other cute things to do:
Jhoira of the Ghitu&suspend cards in general.
Chandra Ablaze ultimate
Staggershock
Champion cards
Hideway to cast it on top of a bolt.

[Gheizen64]

Text for those who can't see the card? (MTGS is down). I guess RR, discard 1, draw 2, sorcery. If it's a sorcery it's unplayable, Dangerous wagers is almost always better.

[DrJones]

It's sorcery, and it's bad, but might be playable if Ravnica Returns has some mechanic that benefits from discarding cards and then drawing cards. :cool:

I suspect the next block is going to have prowl as the blue/black mechanic, given that rogue in m13 that gets +1/+1 if you control an island, and has activated unblockability.

[Humphrey]

I like the blue ring equipment, although the design is kinda whacky. Why is the blue the best of them and it gives hexproof instead of flying?

Oh I forgot, because blue needs to be the best color.

Def. playable though.

Edit: NVM it got spoiled wrong and has an activation cost now.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Can someone please explain to WotC how good hexproof is?
Despite it practically ruining Standard right now I don't think they understand.

[hi-val]

Pretty sure you want to use Arc Blade with the "everyone goes to 1" card. It's got a little bit of early use. It's probably awful, even in Modern, but it's fun to think about.

[Koby]

Can someone please explain to WotC how good hexproof is?
Despite it practically ruining Standard right now I don't think they understand.

Whats there to not understand? Blue is better than every other color. This is the natural evolution of development when they hire ex-Pros onto their development team.

Show me a Red mage that made it to R&D.

[DrJones]

Actually, that equipment can be played by any color, and the fact that is an activated ability makes it less powerful than other hexproof-granting equipments.

Blue in this set is actually balanced when you compare it with the other colors. It looks like the people in M13 team are miles better at their work than the ones that did that worked in Innistrad and Avacyn Restored (hint: they are new hires from the GDS2 instead of the usual culcripts). The only card I feel they shouldn't have printed is that Talrand card, I'm pretty sure that one is going to cause troubles sooner or later.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Whats there to not understand? Blue is better than every other color. This is the natural evolution of development when they hire ex-Pros onto their development team.

Show me a Red mage that made it to R&D.

Yeah Red is actually better than it's been for a while in Standard. Post SFM ban pre Zen rotation I still think it was the strongest deck for the meta (built right it crushed CawBlade and UB Control, Twin, and had pretty even matchups with Ramp.)

Then Hexproof comes out in the same rotation as Swords... Okay, so there are zero ways to kill that Stalker/Geist in response to an equip? Awesome.

The fact that red isn't playable in a format where the clear #1 deck wins 99% of their games by attacking with X/1's says a lot. I was still playing Red and playing stupid shit like 2x MD Slagstorms and 2x MD Grudges with Lootings and still doing okay at local events, but now with Retribution Angel it's impossible. That card absolutely pushed UW over the top as far as red is concerned. Now you can't even reliably remove their non-hexproof creatures if they have mana open because if they have the Angel they just 2 for 1'd you and get a flying beater. Last FNM I went to I lost to the same UW Delver player in swiss and top 4. He had just started playing a couple months ago and was still very new to the game. He easily 4-1'd me while making about 5000 play errors along the way.

No reason to invest in a new Standard deck when everything is so expensive now and we are on the verge of a possible banning and rotation + M13 are on the horizon, oh and the format is stale and boring. If I don't decide to play Standard at GenCon I really don't see any reason to buy into a new deck until rotation, and since I'm actually going to be able to play sanctioned Vintage this year I really don't see why I would want to play Standard.

Hopefully M13 will have something to make Standard worth my time. Banning won't matter, they will just ban the wrong shit and U/W Delver will get 5% worse and we will be back to the metagame of a month ago which was also stale.


Actually, that equipment can be played by any color, and the fact that is an activated ability makes it less powerful than other hexproof-granting equipments.

Blue in this set is actually balanced when you compare it with the other colors. It looks like the people in M13 team are miles better at their work than the ones that did that awful work in Innistrad and Avacyn Restored (hint: they are new hires from the GDS2 instead of the usual culcripts). The only card I feel they shouldn't have printed is that Talrand card, I'm pretty sure that one is going to cause troubles sooner or later.

Yeah this equipment I don't care about really, I just wish they would stop throwing Hexproof on creatures and acting like it's Shroud when it is clearly 1000% better.

Funny you can judge a set when it's not even 75% spoiled, but I guess when you help WotC make the cards you know what's coming.

On a related note there's a strong rumor that M13 has Rancor.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Magic-The-Gathering-M13-Rancor-IN-HAND-Next-Day-Shipping-/150835795377?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item231e8395b1#ht_500wt_1413
Not sure how I feel about that with Strangleroot Geist and Dungrove Elder (hey, hexproof again, Why not?).

It just seems like WotC is on a mission to make removal shitty in Standard (everything has CITP trigger or hexproof or undying). Not quite the format I want to play right now either way.

[Gheizen64]

Cathedral of War seems a pretty interesting card. Not sure why it enter into play tapped, is the effect that good? Had it entered into play untapped i would've played it in a lot of places, for sure. Like this it seems viable maybe in MUD.

EDIT: meh, thinking more about it, it seems just really mediocre. The ability doesn't go well at all with the CipT.

[Que]

What do you guys think of Thragtusk?


Creature - Beast 4G
When Thragtusk enters the battlefield, you gain 5 life.
When Thragtusk leaves the battlefield, put a 3/3 green Beast creature token onto the battlefield.
"Always carry two spears."
-Mokgar, Kalonian hunter
Illus. Nils Hamm #197/249
5/3


Seems fairly reasonable. And no I don't mean this would be good in legacy format.

[Koby]

Seems fairly reasonable. And no I don't mean this would be good in legacy format.

Seems like a Limited/Standard type of card. Only thing I fear is that people will think it will help them beat Delver. Not true - Phantasmal Image on this guy will make green players cry.

[Lord Seth]

Then Hexproof comes out in the same rotation as Swords... Okay, so there are zero ways to kill that Stalker/Geist in response to an equip? Awesome.Think Twice or Thought Scour combined with Terminus, duh.

[Aggro_zombies]

What do you guys think of Thragtusk?


Seems fairly reasonable. And no I don't mean this would be good in legacy format.
Boring anti-control card is boring. It is getting really hard not to agree with people complaining about how Standard these days is all about "cast dude, turn dude sideways."

But then, I guess counterspells, discard, and land destruction are less fun than ham-fistedly wailing away at the opponent with a big creature with a CiP ability (for added value!).

[hi-val]

What do you guys think of Thragtusk?


Seems fairly reasonable. And no I don't mean this would be good in legacy format.

That guy is really, really tempting. It's like a green FTK for Standard. If I were playing a beatdown deck and that landed because they ramped up to 5 mana, I'd be really concerned. That kills one of my guys, undoes two burn spells or an attack step, then makes a 3/3 for good measure. If two of those hit, it'd be even worse. I have to remember that Timely Reinforcements lets control decks just sit back and do nothing for awhile, then buy back all of the lost life and aggression with one conditional card. This takes more mana, but it's much less conditional. Cards that pack all this enters play, leaves play stuff are inherently dangerous. Costing only one colored mana means that Evolving Wilds can pull you into this at a reasonable hour while you've been setting up the board in the meantime.

[Phoenix Ignition]

What do you guys think of Thragtusk?


Seems fairly reasonable. And no I don't mean this would be good in legacy format.

Very interesting for the Modern format. Jund would hate to see this land against them, and it's quite splashable. This could make longer game control decks viable.

[DragoFireheart]

<3 Armageddon-type cards

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAG_M13/Worldfire.jpg

LOL, that's a cute card. Someone in EDH is going to use that.

[Justin]

Liliana of the Dark Realms 2BB
Planeswalker - Liliana
+1: Search your library for a Swamp card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
-3: Target creature gets +X/+x or -X/-X until end of turn, where X is the number of Swamps you control.
-6: You get an emblem with "Swamps you control have ': Add BBBB to your mana pools.'"
3 Loyalty

Doesn't look playable in Legacy. Oh well, at least we still have Liliana of the Veil.

[Amon Amarth]

New Liliana is sweet. Jammin' it in casual land for sure.

[Aggro_zombies]

Some sweet flavor text so far:


"Your laws, like your bones, were made to be broken."
Dude does not fuck around. I respect that.

[RJM]

Liliana of the Dark Realms 2BB
Planeswalker - Liliana
+1: Search your library for a Swamp card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
-3: Target creature gets +X/+x or -X/-X until end of turn, where X is the number of Swamps you control.
-6: You get an emblem with "Swamps you control have ': Add BBBB to your mana pools.'"
3 Loyalty

Doesn't look playable in Legacy. Oh well, at least we still have Liliana of the Veil.

Wouldn't have killed it to have her start a 4 loyalty or make the ability -2, so you at least better options the turn you drop her..... As is, she's casual land all day long.

Although just playing her to +1 and/or proliferate into something absurd like a huge Drain Life seems like a lot of fun.

[guillemnicolau]

Wouldn't have killed it to have her start a 4 loyalty or make the ability -2, so you at least better options the turn you drop her..... As is, she's casual land all day long.

Although just playing her to +1 and/or proliferate into something absurd like a huge Drain Life seems like a lot of fun.

Or the swamp should had entered into play tapped.. it's obvious that they aren't gonna make only great planeswalkers, but just a little change on this one could had turned into testable..

[Darkenslight]

Wouldn't have killed it to have her start a 4 loyalty or make the ability -2, so you at least better options the turn you drop her..... As is, she's casual land all day long.

Although just playing her to +1 and/or proliferate into something absurd like a huge Drain Life seems like a lot of fun.

I think this might actually be playable in Standard and Modern...just not right now. The reason is that the +1 fetches Shocks, as it doesn't have the basic clause. That Ultimate, however, is a doozy. If Consume Spirit or another Drain Life effect gets printed any time in the next year, Lili will be played. Hell, it's possibly playable now in a Black Control shell (with BSZ and Maga, to name a few.)

Even that -3 is hilarious on a Vampire Nighthawk.

[Moondancerbb]

Card Type: Planeswalker

Subtype: Ajani

Loyalty: 4

Casting Cost: 1WW

Card Text: [+1]: Put a +1/+1 counter on up to one target creature.
[-3]: Target creature gains flying and double strike until end of turn.
[-8]: Put X 2/2 white Cat creature tokens onto the battlefield, where X is your life total.

Oracle Text: [+1]: Put a +1/+1 counter on up to one target creature.
[-3]: Target creature gains flying and double strike until end of turn.
[-8]: Put X 2/2 white Cat creature tokens onto the battlefield, where X is your life total.

Artist: D. Alexander Gregory

Rarity: Mythic Rare

Playable for legacy or not? Seems to be costed appropriately and the -3 could be relevant.

[Arsenal]

The 3cmc is great. High starting loyalty is also great. Obviously wants to be played in a deck that is aggressive. Can't see where it would fit off the top of my head, but I'm sure it'll find a home somewhere (maybe not in a tier 1 deck, but somewhere).

EDIT: D. Alexander Gregory is the artist? It'll have fantastic artwork, which means WotC wants it to be playable.

[Aggro_zombies]

Card Type: Planeswalker

Subtype: Ajani

Loyalty: 4

Casting Cost: 1WW

Card Text: [+1]: Put a +1/+1 counter on up to one target creature.
[-3]: Target creature gains flying and double strike until end of turn.
[-8]: Put X 2/2 white Cat creature tokens onto the battlefield, where X is your life total.

Oracle Text: [+1]: Put a +1/+1 counter on up to one target creature.
[-3]: Target creature gains flying and double strike until end of turn.
[-8]: Put X 2/2 white Cat creature tokens onto the battlefield, where X is your life total.

Artist: D. Alexander Gregory

Rarity: Mythic Rare

Playable for legacy or not? Seems to be costed appropriately and the -3 could be relevant.
Probably slightly worse than Elspeth. My first thought was that Maverick would like him, but the ability to make a 1/1 and then beat with it after a Wrath effect is a huge upside of Elspeth, as is giving the flying bonus every turn against other creature decks. In fact, now that I think about it, he's probably just all-around worse than Elspeth.

[Moondancerbb]

Probably slightly worse than Elspeth. My first thought was that Maverick would like him, but the ability to make a 1/1 and then beat with it after a Wrath effect is a huge upside of Elspeth, as is giving the flying bonus every turn against other creature decks. In fact, now that I think about it, he's probably just all-around worse than Elspeth.

This is exactly what i was thinking there isn't a deck that would utilize him and Elspeth just beats out in that spot. The only relevant ability seems to be the -3 one and Elspeth is almost as good already.

[Gheizen64]

Possibly worse than elspeth, but the first and second ability combo so nicely it's almost ramping to an ultimate. Put +1+1 counters on factory, after 3 turn -3 it for 10 flying damage gg. Or just play it alongside hextupid creatures. I'll be tempted to test it somewhere, it's no Tibalt (LOL RED) for sure.

[Aggro_zombies]

Possibly worse than elspeth, but the first and second ability combo so nicely it's almost ramping to an ultimate. Put +1+1 counters on factory, after 3 turn -3 it for 10 flying damage gg. Or just play it alongside hextupid creatures. I'll be tempted to test it somewhere, it's no Tibalt (LOL RED) for sure.
Elspeth has better short-term damage output and protects herself; Ajani doesn't. Self-protection is especially important in creature-light control decks.

EDIT: Most importantly, Elspeth is good on just about any board state, whereas Ajani isn't. Sure, you can +1 him for no effect if you have no creatures, but that is significantly worse than +1ing Elspeth to make a guy.

[rufus]

Ajani looks pretty weak: you can't ramp him without a creature in play. If you have him, and a creature, on the table for 5 turns, does the ultimate really help?

Edit: Apparently you can ramp this without a creature in play. Still terrible for requiring one.

[Fossil4182]

On new Liliana and Ajani: they both fail the "must be able to protect itself" test for Planeswalkers. Technically, Liliana can protect herself but a four mana sorcery speed removal spell... blah.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Huh, both new Planeswalkers are pretty "bad", but I'm not complaining that they are making sure that not every walker is some eye-popping death machine that pushes the limits. They've been pretty good about walker design as of late (except in Red, where all are janktastic) as far as making them more about deck synergy than being Jace-awesome.

The only complaint I have is that new Lili doesn't feel at all like Lili...there's no discard or reanimation aspects. It might have been better for them to make a new black walker to be the "Swamps matter" one, especially given the fact we recently got Liliana of the Veil.

[Richard Cheese]

Huh, both new Planeswalkers are pretty "bad", but I'm not complaining that they are making sure that not every walker is some eye-popping death machine that pushes the limits. They've been pretty good about walker design as of late (except in Red, where all are janktastic) as far as making them more about deck synergy than being Jace-awesome.

The only complaint I have is that new Lili doesn't feel at all like Lili...there's no discard or reanimation aspects. It might have been better for them to make a new black walker to be the "Swamps matter" one, especially given the fact we recently got Liliana of the Veil.

WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?!?!
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/lg/299.jpg

[Barook]

The only way the new Liliana would become somewhat acceptable is with SDT.

Her +1 still provides card advantage, even if it's just very mediocre CA. But what's more important:
She provides a shuffle effect every turn. You basically get to choose the best out of 3 new cards every turn while building up her ultimate, that, once you go off, should immediately end the game in an uncounterable Banefire - good thing you can fetch Badlands for the splash with her, too. And finding the X-Spell of choice shouldn't be so hard with the SDT selection.

[Vacrix]

Liliana of the Dark Realms 2BB
Planeswalker - Liliana
+1: Search your library for a Swamp card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
-3: Target creature gets +X/+x or -X/-X until end of turn, where X is the number of Swamps you control.
-6: You get an emblem with "Swamps you control have ': Add BBBB to your mana pools.'"
3 Loyalty

Doesn't look playable in Legacy. Oh well, at least we still have Liliana of the Veil.
Should have been printed as...

Liliana of the Dark Realms 2BB
Planeswalker - Liliana
+1 Scry 1. Then, you may pay 3 life. If you do, Scry 2.
-2 Exile target permanent. That permanent's controller may return it to play if they choose to pay life equal to its casting cost.
-7 You gain an emblem that says, "Whenever a creature is put into your opponent's graveyard from play, return it to play under your control."
3

Come on WotC that took like 30 seconds to think of. You go and print Jace the Mindsculptor and then decide 'oh shit, we probably shouldn't print any playable Planeswalkers for a little while.' I'm really disappointed with the set design lately and I doubt I'm the only one.

[Nihil Credo]

+1 Scry 1. Then, you may pay 3 life. If you do, Scry 2.

Come on WotC that took like 30 seconds to think of. And it shows.

[Vacrix]

And it shows.
Think so? I figured it costs 4, is within bolt range, and won't always be able to protect itself with the -2. So naturally the +1 helps it protect itself. Perhaps if were scry 1 instead of scry 2 if would be more balanced.

[JeroenC]

Except it's not in bolt range, since it gets to 4 before the opponent gets priority.

[Barook]

They've been pretty good about walker design as of late (except in Red, where all are janktastic) as far as making them more about deck synergy than being Jace-awesome.

It's not like red has much interesting design space to offer, especially with reasonable costed LD being abandoned:


Chandra Ablaze
Chandra Nalaar
Chandra, the Firebrand
Koth of the Hammer
Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded

Each of them has at least one damage ability (which suck), with all Chandra variants being the worst offenders.

I would love to see a Walker with a +1 mana adding ability (or simply a self-protecting one which throws out Goblin tokens), or -X Pillage or Threaten effects, for example.

[Gheizen64]

Yo i'm red and i'm not bad RR
Planeswalker - Bro
+1 : Target creature get +2+0
-3 : threaten target creature
-8 : threaten all creatures
Loyalty : 2

Or:
I like LD 1RR
+2 : add R to your mana pool
-3 : destroy target artifact or land
-12 : destroy all other permanents
Loyalty: 2

Also, Red need this LD spell:

1RR
Destroy target nonbasic land, this deal x damage to that land's controller, where x is the number of land he has in the grave.

I know there's a 2RR version of this. Being 2RR make it unplayable, LD must be at must 3. Cryoclasm need 1 more damage to be playable, even in a format where everyone is playing islands or plains.

[Barook]

-8 : threaten all creatures
Tibalt already does that.

Why not something like this?

Goblin Walker :2::r::r:
Planeswalker - Goblin Walker
+1: Put a 1/1 red Goblin creature token with haste into play.
+1: You get an emblem with ":r::r:: You deal X damage to target creature or player, where X is the number of emblems on you."
-8: You get an emblem with "All lands are Mountains."
Loyalty: 4

[T-101]

Upon initial evaluation, Ajani and Liliana don't really seem like Legacy playable cards. I CAN actually see Ajani making appearances in Maverick, but probably only useful in the mirror. His plus one isn't terrible on the creatures Mav runs, and the -3 is a trump card enabling you to send in a Knight or Goyf over their guys... but Maverick doesn't really need a 3 mana mirror breaker card.

Lili strikes me as Standard utility PW, perhaps Modern Deathcloud playable.

[Final Fortune]

Tibalt already does that.

Why not something like this?

Goblin Walker :2::r::r:
Planeswalker - Goblin Walker
+1: Put a 1/1 red Goblin creature token with haste into play.
+1: You get an emblem with ":r::r:: You deal X damage to target creature or player, where X is the number of emblems on you."
-8: You get an emblem with "All lands are Mountains."
Loyalty: 4

A Red Walker with an ultimate Blood Moon would be completely awesome design wise

[bruizar]

Let's make this the M13 spoiler thread.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132166

Most likely too expensive at 4 mana without any built-in protection, but the offensive potential isn't too bad, especially with Lingering Souls and other token generators.

You sit back and enjoy your defense while you swing with a huge Angel.


Mmh, 4/3 flier with good abilities for 2WW? I'll try her somewhere in some deck with white and ancient tombs, but i'm guessing she'll end subpar.

I like Sublime Archangel. 2WW is affordable, especially in Maverick. This card a lot:

1) It's flying, so it surpasses locked down boards
2) It gives exalted the turn it comes into play, so you can attack with a huge random-creature immediately, in effect neutering the summoning sickness on the card
3) It can easily out-muscle even the biggest creature.

Not sure if its good enough for legacy, but the powerlevel on this is good. Biggest dealbreaker for me is 3 toughness or lack of hexproof. This card is best in a deck with a lot of utility-creatures. Particularly creatures with activated abilities and cards with lifelink. It's a shame Sulfur Elemental is a card, otherwise I'd say that this would be really sweet in Death & Taxes / Green & Taxes.

[Justin]

Yeah, I agree that the 3 toughness hurts. It would have been much better in Legacy as a 3/4 than a 4/3.

[GradStudentGuy]

Tibalt already does that.

Why not something like this?

Goblin Walker :2::r::r:
Planeswalker - Goblin Walker
+1: Put a 1/1 red Goblin creature token with haste into play.
+1: You get an emblem with "r::r:: You deal X damage to target creature or player, where X is the number of emblems on you."
-8: You get an emblem with "All lands are Mountains."
Loyalty: 4

That is the most interesting design for a walker I have seen posted. It may need to be reworded for the second +1. Because right now the emblems stack. :r::r::r::r:: dealing four damage every turn is a lot with only two emblems on the field.

[Pich]

This thread is now about this card

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Yeva-Natures-Herald-M13-Spoilers.jpg

[Infinitium]

Nah. At 4cc a creature basically have to win the game by itself unless answered quickly (versus at least some archetypes), and it competes with Sylvan Messenger/Vengevine as a GSZ target even in slower Elf decks.

[Zinch]

What creature are you talking about?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

What creature are you talking about?

Scroll up to #127. :rolleyes:

[Finn]

I don't see it out muscling anything Reanimator or Sneak Show bring to the battlefield.

[wolfstorm]

It's all about the EoT Tarmogoyf plan.

[nedleeds]

It's all about the EoT Tarmogoyf plan.

"Crack Misty Rainforest."

...

"I have a response."

[wolfstorm]

"Crack Misty Rainforest."

...

"I have a response."

Exactly... Sounds like an amazing solidarity transformational sideboard.. Who cares about hunting pack, I'm going to play 4 goyf's and friends at EoT, take that Show and tell.

[nedleeds]

"Infernal Tutor"

...


"I have a response"

"Gaddock Teeg"

...

:eek:

[Esper3k]

Imagine if you had a Painter's Servant on Green in play!

[Shawon]

Mwonvuli Beast Tracker :1::g::g:

Creature - Human Scout
When Mwonvuli Beast Tracker enters the battlefield, search your library for a creature card with deathtouch, hexproof, reach or trample and reveal it. Shuffle your library, then put that card on top of it.


I didn't know it was possible to print a worse Sylvan Tutor than... Sylvan Tutor.
----------------------------------

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132484&d=1339992483

I like the design of this card, but did the initial mana cost have to be so expensive? Beseech the Queen is essentially a 3 mana Demonic Tutor and it still sees no play. To make this into a single Demonic Tutor requires six freaking mana.

Art is sick, especially the skulls in the background, hence the main reason for the image attachment.

[edgarps22]

The difference is that this new Sylvan Tutor is a dude, not just a spell. a 2/1 body that gets you a tool is very good, or potentially very good. Think Eternal Witness. Solid card, can tutor up something useful if a dude is what you need, and can also serve as a shuffle effect. Providing you are tutoring for something like say Geist of Saint Traft. In Modern this will be damn strong because this can go get Primevil Titan, or you can get Sigarda, or Thrun, Putrefax (there is something to be said about tutoring up a 5 powered hasty infect duder), and yeah there are a lot of targets. Those are just some off the top of my head, and a small search of freaking Standard legal green creatures. New 2/1 dude, could be amazing, could be meh, we will see. But he is on Mavericks mana curve, and might spawn something slightly different with that level of utility.

[KobeBryan]

Augar of Bolas looks legit in a U/R burn deck or a tempo deck.

[Antonius]

Augar of Bolas looks legit in a U/R burn deck or a tempo deck.

yeah, but for tempo, two mana for 1 power's pretty whack, even if it cantrips.

more likely to be seen in blades, as a stand-in for decks that run hawks. It gives you a body for equipment, blocks goblin guides/smallershits and gets you a better card than Hawks can. It will lose to RNG every now and again though.

OH, and Riptide Lab. Funsies.

[Moondancerbb]

Add in the fact he is a merfolk and a wizard and you have a real card i think.

[KobeBryan]

Add in the fact he is a merfolk and a wizard and you have a real card i think.

Problem is...merfolk doesn't run too many instants or sorcery. If it said put a merfolk card in your hand, then yes, then it will replace something in merfolk.

[Moondancerbb]

Merfolk is gonna have to change into something to compete we have seen what 1 top 16 in months? It seems like it could be a relevant card in merfolk probably not but its at least the right creature type to start looking for other options.

Was more pointing out that he is a wizard for riptide lab and blue white control he still holds a sword and cantrips for a counter.

Is putting a card into your hand the same as drawing? possible vial miracle card too if it is the case.

[KobeBryan]

Merfolk is gonna have to change into something to compete we have seen what 1 top 16 in months? It seems like it could be a relevant card in merfolk probably not but its at least the right creature type to start looking for other options.

Was more pointing out that he is a wizard for riptide lab and blue white control he still holds a sword and cantrips for a counter.

Is putting a card into your hand the same as drawing? possible vial miracle card too if it is the case.

You haven't been following the last 2 weeks huh.

[Moondancerbb]

You haven't been following the last 2 weeks huh.

If your Referring to the two in top 16 at the incredibly skewed start city invitational where they could have 8-0 in standard and got 5-3 in legacy and still got top 16 then i would say take your rose colored glasses off.

The Columbus deck is the one i am referring to and its main deck chalices and cavern and still running curse catcher to get its guys through. That might become a real deck.

[kiblast]

Actually Diabolic Revelation is a 1 card combo that gets you Time Vault + Key for 7 mana. I understand Tezzeret is not exactly super played and is only 5cc, but Tezz requires you to pass the turn almost always.

[RJM]

Actually Diabolic Revelation is a 1 card combo that gets you Time Vault + Key for 7 mana. I understand Tezzeret is not exactly super played and is only 5cc, but Tezz requires you to pass the turn almost always.

Well, if you're planning on not passing the turn after Diabolic Revelation either, then it's technically 10 mana since you're going to want to cast both of the cards you just tutored for too. :P

Revelation is clearly another cool EDH tutor, but that's really about it.

[Antonius]

Disciple of Bolas
3B
Creature - (types not known yet)
When ~ enters the battlefield, sacrifice another creature then gain life and draw cards equal to its power.
2/1

this looks like a very nice gift to Birthing Pod decks.

yes, that includes Legacy Rock.

[Shawon]

The difference is that this new Sylvan Tutor is a dude, not just a spell. a 2/1 body that gets you a tool is very good, or potentially very good. Think Eternal Witness. Solid card, can tutor up something useful if a dude is what you need, and can also serve as a shuffle effect. Providing you are tutoring for something like say Geist of Saint Traft. In Modern this will be damn strong because this can go get Primevil Titan, or you can get Sigarda, or Thrun, Putrefax (there is something to be said about tutoring up a 5 powered hasty infect duder), and yeah there are a lot of targets. Those are just some off the top of my head, and a small search of freaking Standard legal green creatures. New 2/1 dude, could be amazing, could be meh, we will see. But he is on Mavericks mana curve, and might spawn something slightly different with that level of utility.

You're missing a key difference between this worse-than-Sylvan-tutor and Eternal Witness, and while we're at it Trinket Mage: it (or they) can summon the chosen card into your hand in the same turn. This new guy delays your card a whole turn, and thus telegraphs your next move to your opponent. I don't have to play Standard/Modern to realize that's a subpar card in any format.

[Infinitium]

Except unlike Trinket Mage this one tutors for bombs. I hear bombs have been pretty good in standard these past few years.

[Koby]

Add in the fact he is a merfolk and a wizard and you have a real card i think.

Merfolk - bonus, altho doesn't shine in this application.
Wizard - this is working to his advantage
Blue - herppppppppppp

Ya this creature-spell strikes me as being well above the power creep curve for the cost of the effect.

Vial Wizards ftw...

[Shawon]

Except unlike Trinket Mage this one tutors for bombs. I hear bombs have been pretty good in standard these past few years.

Bombs = apples. Card that doesn't give you bomb right away, gives your opponent free information, and (at least) one turn to react = jank.

I should point out, not to just you or me but to any reader, that comparing functionally different tutors isn't always coherent when making a statement about the tutor you're defending. For example, Treasure Mage tutors up bombs, but does that make it better than Trinket Mage?

That aside, so what if this 1GG guy can tutor up bombs? You say 'tutors up bombs,' I say 'only tutors up bombs,' feel me? Look at the card from the glass half-empty: How does this card help you when you need a solution to an opponent's bomb or board?

[Octopusman]

New flavor text on Disentomb mentions Nevinyrral as a necromancer.
When did they make this lore?

I'd like to see more references to OLD magic lore like Chaos Orb, the original moxen, etc.
Cool stuff!

[lyracian]

New flavor text on Disentomb mentions Nevinyrral as a necromancer.
When did they make this lore?
Fifth Edition Drudge Skeletons had him as a Necromancer which was 1997.

[Tinefol]

Omniscience 7UUU - Mythic

Enchantment
You may cast nonland cards from your hand without paying their mana costs.


Yup. Another goodie for Show and Tell.

[Aernil]

I think Omniscience might give Academic Rector a reason to be a solid card again rather than be a new toy for Show and Tell decks.
As of right now I really cant think of a spell that would win the game immediatly (and would be otherwise more or less impossible to play).

[Shawon]

Would Omniscience serve as a good supplement to Dream Halls as a combo enabler? You can't (reliably) hard-cast it but this is definitely the better card to Show and Tell because it not only lets you cast everything for free, it only lets the controller do so unlike Dream Halls which allows all players the ability.

LOL, before writing this, I had just typed up a combo for Dream Halls fetching Omniscience. Then I realized that Omniscience is just a upgraded Dream Halls.

[rxavage]

Better Than Dream Halls, This seems pretty damn cool.

[xfxf]

A 3 card combo but upon resolution if you have any draw effects in your hand (even Brainstorm) you can keep chaining draw effects (Meditate, Ad Nauseam, Griselbrand) into counters into more draw effects into lethal storm with a bunch of "free" counters in hand. Seems careful deck design can break this card pretty hard.

So the three cards are Show and Tell + Omniscience + Any draw effect.

Edit: Actually it's like Spiral Tide which can go off on Turn 1 (theoretically with Petal and Sol Land), a protected storm count with an easier kill (actuall damage instead of milling). Draw-cast, draw-cast... without caring about mana really, then presenting the kill card with a bunch of counters.

[Cire]

Why not use it in conjunction with dream halls... You need just find the Show and tell and then the combo unfolds by itself without you needing to search for the hidden pieces...

so
-Combo
4 Show and tell
4 Personal tutor
4 Dream Halls
4 Omniscience
4 Conflux
4 Intuition
4 Progentius
1 Prismatic omen
1 Coalition Victory

Protection
4 Force of will
3 Daze
2 Spell Peirce

Draw
4 Brainstorm

Lands
4 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest

[xfxf]

Why do you need the Dream Halls?

[SaberTooth]

Why do you need the Dream Halls?

maybe u can use dream halls with conflux to search this and play it

[xfxf]

Then you need Show and Tell + Dream Halls + Conflux as opposed to Show and Tell + Omniscience + Any random draw spell. At the time you assemble 2 cards (Show and Omni) you might be holding Brainstorm, Merchant Scroll, Meditate, Cunning Wish which would immediately chain into a storm count of 10 and a kill. You don't really search for the pieces at that point, you are just counting storm.

Edit: Something like this. Very crude but replaced the High Tide+Time Spiral with Show and Tell, Omniscience to benefit the tutoring and drawing power of High Tide. Unless you naturally draw the combo pieces it's very easy to assemble them by Turn 3 at the latest with so many cantrips and Merchant Scroll and Intuition.

18 Lands (including Sol ones)

8 Counters

4 Omni
4 Show and Tell

4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
3 Meditate

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

3 Tendrils

Sideboard:
1 Intuition
1 Personal Tutor
1 Meditate
...

[Star|Scream]

The only issue I have with the above list is that you're kind of all-in on show and tell. Therefore g2 & g3 you are giving your opponent a free uncounterable answer opportunity. Also, Krosan Grip

[xfxf]

You're right I didn't give much thought to the list, I was just brainstorming. I also believe in such a configuration there could be 1 ofs like Ad Nauseam and Griselbrand to decrease the chances of bricking after you start to combo-out but as I said it's just a crude template that first occured to me. With careful deckbuilding I'm not sure how long either Show and Tell or Omniscience can stay legal in the format though.

[Star|Scream]

You're right I didn't give much thought to the list, I was just brainstorming. I also believe in such a configuration there could be 1 ofs like Ad Nauseam and Griselbrand to decrease the chances of bricking after you start to combo-out but as I said it's just a crude template that first occured to me. With careful deckbuilding I'm not sure how long either Show and Tell or Omniscience can stay legal in the format though.

I have a feeling they kept SNT unbanned this time just to troll us with this new enchantment.

[rxavage]

I have a feeling they kept SNT unbanned this time just to troll us with this new enchantment.

I thought this at first too. I said to myself "they want to show the chicken littles what broken/unfair really means". But...

I don't think it's going to be as crazy as people think, consistency will be an issue and the all in on Show&Tell hurts it significantly, especially while RUG is so ubiquitous. Don't get me wrong, I think the card is absurdly powerful but I just don't think it will be any more dominant than any of the other powerful decks.

[yankeedave]

Hmm, how to break Omniscience:

Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petal, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Griselbrand, draw 14, Emrakul, extra turn, kill you? Seems strong and can be in a mono U shell. Nice. Cheaper in £££s than Sneak Attack too. Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, and Personal Tutor to find S&T? Hmm.

[Cire]

Why do you need the Dream Halls?

Huh? because you want redundancy don't you? Instead of searching for one or the other, you now have 8* dream halls. You just need to find 1 card (s&t) instead of 2 (s&t and omniscience)

[xfxf]

I'd rather load up on draw effects, tutors and cantrips rather than redundancy. In such a configuration I feel like you'd end up with dead cards in hand but with cantrips you can both find your pieces on turn 3 at the latest and can also use those cantrips to combo out after you land the Omniscience. But I guess your's is a completely different approach which is also worthy of exploration. In either case I think the card is very ripe for brewing and a potential candidate to cause some bans.

[jrw1985]

Hypergenesis?

[Vacrix]

Legit now we have Super Dream Halls. I guess this is confirmation that Tolarian Academy will never be legal ever again.

[rxavage]

Legit now we have Super Dream Halls. I guess this is confirmation that Tolarian Academy will never be legal ever again.

Why would it matter how much mana Tolarian Academy can potentially produce when you don't have to pay for anything after resolving Omniscience? Maybe they'll unban Academy just to give decks the tools to fight the card...j/k

[Final Fortune]

How is Academy Rector and Show&Tell for Omniscience any better than Gamekeeper and Show&Tell for Griselbrand exactly?

[JDK]

...
4 Omni
4 Show and Tell

4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
3 Meditate

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

3 Tendrils

Sideboard:
1 Intuition
1 Personal Tutor
1 Meditate
...

You do realize that Merchant Scroll cannot fetch for Show and Tell, right?

[DrHealex]

I think you are getting sidetracked by all this show and tell combo stuff.

This card is the real deal because it is a 9/9 with opalessence in play.

I smell a new deck: Enchantimater.

[Norm]

Omniscience is completely busted, it will turbocharge currently broken decks and spawn brand new degenerate lists. I wonder if we'll refer to this as Combo Summer.

[bruizar]

UW Enchantments with opalescence and replenish doesn't have tolarian academy, but it has serra's sanctum :D

Also, DECREE OF SILENCE

[Gheizen64]

Legit now we have Super Dream Halls. I guess this is confirmation that Tolarian Academy will never be legal ever again.

I dunno why exactly Academy would be busted with a 6UUU mana enchantment. You fill your deck of 0-mana artifacts to generate 6UUU relatively early (that's turn 4-5 since academy won't realistically generate more than 5 mana unless you play only 0 mana artifacts in your deck) and then play a card that allow you to play those 0 mana cards for free? Seriously?

[morgan_coke]

Does Omnicience or whatever have a place in a U/G "tooth" style deck that also features SnT? I mean, you can probably hardcast it on t4-5 with the right kind of ramp and Prime Time, plus you get blue utility/beats and endgamers like Emrakul, so you're not all in on the SnT plan or the ramp plan, you just play bunches of good stuff and win by out mana out drawing out bombing your opponent. Not as speed freak as some things, but still plenty fast with more consistency and defense.

Something like:

4x Show and Tell
4x Brainstorm
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Omniscience

4x Force of Will

4x Primeval Titan
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
4x Vesuva
4x Tropical Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Simic Signet
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Eye of Ugin
4x Mox Diamond

I mean, obviously that needs to be tuned a lot, but the general theory seems like it would have potential, with protection, "oops I win" draw and filtering combined with straightline inevitability.

[Aggro_zombies]

Omniscience is completely busted, it will turbocharge currently broken decks and spawn brand new degenerate lists. I wonder if we'll refer to this as Combo Summer.
You know, I'm still waiting for the last expensive-but-potentially-powerful blue mythic to wreck the format. You know, the one people argued should be preemptively banned?

This card is terrible. It is only "castable" via Show and Tell. As far as "cards that win the game outside of combat if you have SnT" go, it's far worse than Hive Mind because it was at least feasible to reach 5U between Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, and Lotus Petal. It's not feasible to reach 7UUU in the first ~4 turns of the game, though. The only way to consistently do that would be to fill your deck with artifact mana, but then you have a very awkward balancing act between mana accel, card drawing (to keep you going once you have Omniscience) and win conditions.

And as far as SnT-only cards go, I suppose it's fine. It might spawn its own deck but that deck will probably be worse than Hive Mind, a deck that is itself generally worse than Sneak-Show.

[socialite]

X Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Top
4 Force of Will
X Reactive/proactive protection spell
4 Show and Tell
4 Omniscience
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

Ancient Tomb -> Lotus Petal -> Show and Tell -> Omniscience -> Grislebrand -> Draw 14 -> Emrakul -> Time Walk -> Swing.

Grats I broke this lame format. :rolleyes:

Thanks YD!

[JDK]

X Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Top
4 Force of Will
X Reactive/proactive protection spell
4 Show and Tell
4 Omniscience
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

Ancient Tomb -> Lotus Petal -> Show and Tell -> Omniscience -> Grislebrand -> Draw 14 -> Emrakul -> Time Walk -> Swing.

Grats I broke this lame format. :rolleyes:

Thanks YD!

So you took Sneak Show and made it worse?

[Antonius]

X Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Top
4 Force of Will
X Reactive/proactive protection spell
4 Show and Tell
4 Omniscience
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand

Ancient Tomb -> Lotus Petal -> Show and Tell -> Omniscience -> Grislebrand -> Draw 14 -> Emrakul -> Time Walk -> Swing.

Grats I broke this lame format. :rolleyes:

Thanks YD!

that's definitely the wrong way to go about it, my dude. You take Omniscience and jam it into the Dream Halls shell, replacing some number of Progenitals with Emrakuls, since casting Emrakuls off Omniscience = wins.

@Aggro_Zombies: Sure, you can hardcast Hive Mind and win but Hive Mind has the other drawback of having to play the card abortions that are Pacts. Those awful cards have zero application outside of the combo turn.
On the flipside, with Omniscience, you could play personal tutor together with top/any cantrip as your way to get a conflux >> win the game after you've shown and told Omniscience into play. Hell, you could theoretically use Infernal Tutor. Pre-combo turn, Infernal gets redundance (extra Show and Tells in case they have the counter or extra forces or whatever). During the combo turn, you can just Omniscience to play out your whole hand (I know, I know, you could get screwed over with lands) and use it as a DT. Sure, it's still a three card combo, but at least all three cards aren't absolutely completely useless.
Oh, DERP. That's right, you just run Burning Wish. Burning wish is extremely useful for getting any part of the combo.

[Barook]

Oh, DERP. That's right, you just run Burning Wish. Burning wish is extremely useful for getting any part of the combo.
BW requires a red splash. For cost reasons and mana consistency, I would rather stick to Mono-U and use Personal Tutor and Intuition instead. Intuition can find all your combo pieces and the CC shouldn't be too much of a hassle, considering you're already running acceleration for S&T.

[Antonius]

BW requires a red splash. For cost reasons and mana consistency, I would rather stick to Mono-U and use Personal Tutor and Intuition instead. Intuition can find all your combo pieces and the CC shouldn't be too much of a hassle, considering you're already running acceleration for S&T.

Red splash ain't bad though. I mean...pyroblast? Firespout? These are bitchin.

[csy]

now it almost feels like they didnt ban show and tell just to make all the trolls have fun with omni arguments. Temporal mastery BAN ON SIGHT!, Omni Z0MGz BROKEN!. omni is cute.

[Koby]

More importantly, Red allows you to cast Worldfire. I mean, come on, one time!

[Arsenal]

Obliterate is still the best red-game-chaos card, imo.

[Tammit67]

Does Omnicience or whatever have a place in a U/G "tooth" style deck that also features SnT?

We already have SnT decks that effectively win once SnT resolves. Might as well uncomplicate things and just use GriselB

[Norm]

You know, I'm still waiting for the last expensive-but-potentially-powerful blue mythic to wreck the format. You know, the one people argued should be preemptively banned?

This card is terrible. It is only "castable" via Show and Tell. As far as "cards that win the game outside of combat if you have SnT" go, it's far worse than Hive Mind because it was at least feasible to reach 5U between Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, and Lotus Petal. It's not feasible to reach 7UUU in the first ~4 turns of the game, though. The only way to consistently do that would be to fill your deck with artifact mana, but then you have a very awkward balancing act between mana accel, card drawing (to keep you going once you have Omniscience) and win conditions.

And as far as SnT-only cards go, I suppose it's fine. It might spawn its own deck but that deck will probably be worse than Hive Mind, a deck that is itself generally worse than Sneak-Show.

I never said Temporal Mastery was good, I was of the opposite opinion. Omniscience is busted because it enables near-fearless turn one/two Show and Tell wins. It may be a little clunky, but Hive Mind was clunky as well and still rocked major tournaments until people adjusted with cute tricks like Stifle and Spellstutter Sprite coupled with soft counters. This card doesn't have that sort of blowout potential from your opponent. When you resolve Show and Tell with Omniscience in hand, you'll probably win the game regardless of what your opponent has. Feel free to quote me on that.

[Aggro_zombies]

@Aggro_Zombies: Sure, you can hardcast Hive Mind and win but Hive Mind has the other drawback of having to play the card abortions that are Pacts. Those awful cards have zero application outside of the combo turn.
On the flipside, with Omniscience, you could play personal tutor together with top/any cantrip as your way to get a conflux >> win the game after you've shown and told Omniscience into play. Hell, you could theoretically use Infernal Tutor. Pre-combo turn, Infernal gets redundance (extra Show and Tells in case they have the counter or extra forces or whatever). During the combo turn, you can just Omniscience to play out your whole hand (I know, I know, you could get screwed over with lands) and use it as a DT. Sure, it's still a three card combo, but at least all three cards aren't absolutely completely useless.
Oh, DERP. That's right, you just run Burning Wish. Burning wish is extremely useful for getting any part of the combo.
The problem is that SnT is the choke point of this combo since Omniscience is itself uncastable. Either that, or you're just playing a very bad storm deck.

I'm not buying it here. I'm not buying it in a deck with Emrakul and Griselbrand because you're swapping a card you can cast (Sneak Attack) for one you can't (Omniscience), thereby making your deck basically entirely dependent on one card resolving (Show and Tell). I'm not buying it in a Dream Halls shell because (a) Dream Halls works perfectly fine and can actually be hardcast and (b) Dream Halls the deck blows because it's the weakest SnT deck.

I mean, I get that it's spoiler season and thus hyperbole is on the menu, but I'm still waiting for the Temporal Mastery apocalypse to happen, and from where I'm sitting this card is even less likely to wreck the format than TM.

[Norm]

The problem is that SnT is the choke point of this combo since Omniscience is itself uncastable. Either that, or you're just playing a very bad storm deck.

I'm not buying it here. I'm not buying it in a deck with Emrakul and Griselbrand because you're swapping a card you can cast (Sneak Attack) for one you can't (Omniscience), thereby making your deck basically entirely dependent on one card resolving (Show and Tell). I'm not buying it in a Dream Halls shell because (a) Dream Halls works perfectly fine and can actually be hardcast and (b) Dream Halls the deck blows because it's the weakest SnT deck.

I mean, I get that it's spoiler season and thus hyperbole is on the menu, but I'm still waiting for the Temporal Mastery apocalypse to happen, and from where I'm sitting this card is even less likely to wreck the format than TM.

Who said you need to cut Sneak Attack entirely? How about cutting one Sneak Attack, two other cards, +3 Omniscience and find room for the fourth in your board. Sneak Attack is fantastic in Show and Tell mirrors because they don't get to put something scary into play, Omniscience only effects yourself so you're safe going the Show and Tell -> Omniscience -> Find Emrakul and cast it plan.

EDIT: It also laughs pretty hard at Maverick (a matchup that most certainly is not a total bye)

[socialite]

So you took Sneak Show and made it worse?

Yeah you right. Mono U with Back to Basics instead of Blood Moon and a ass ton of blue protection sounds horrible. Know what else sucks Karakas -> bounce your Emrakul, oh but wait you just play it for free again and TIME WALK! :tongue:

Trollololol.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Guys Omniscience is totally broken. No kidding, this will be a card you will hate to see and you will be seeing it so often with the mana acceleration in the format.



Oh whoops, this is the Legacy forum, not EDH. Omniscience will be used in goofy Johnny decks and nothing more. It's not Russelbrand, and it doesn't even have the "Well, geez, that could be really scary" feel of T. Mastery, ReforgeDatSoul, or LemmeLavaAxeYouAQuestion. It pretty much is inferior to Dream Halls in all the important ways and I don't see how you would ever want to S&T this thing out unless you wanted a nerfed-to-hell version of Spiral Tide that plays itself. I'm open to the fact I could be wrong, but in the vein of Sir Charles, I doubt it.

Also while we're on the topic of other formats, I'm excited to see that they finally made a dragon close to the power level of something like Baneslayer, but with sick anti-token game. Only a 14-dollar pre-order too for what could be a boss Mythic. Tempting.

[rxavage]

That dragon is pretty sweet for standard, I don't think it's worth 14$ though.

[hi-val]

If I were still playing High Tide, I think I'd give Omniscience a good look. You can reasonably generate that kind of mana and it'd let you shave down on either Turnabouts or Candelabras. Doing away with the untapping stuff would be great. Problem is, you'd need 6 Islands or two Tides to start casting this thing without other untappers... Anyway, it reminds me of how the Tide decks would run a single Mind over Matter to live the dream.

[jrw1985]

If I were still playing High Tide, I think I'd give Omniscience a good look. You can reasonably generate that kind of mana and it'd let you shave down on either Turnabouts or Candelabras. Doing away with the untapping stuff would be great. Problem is, you'd need 6 Islands or two Tides to start casting this thing without other untappers... Anyway, it reminds me of how the Tide decks would run a single Mind over Matter to live the dream.

High Tide and Hypergenesis are the only decks I actually seeing this card being played in, and as a 2-of at most. $4 Mythic.

[csy]

we should start a thread that explicitly argues over how broken this card is, and how it isn't broken. That way we can go back and (nelson -al haha.wav) at the parties that were wrong when either party is proven right.

[Vacrix]

The problem is that SnT is the choke point of this combo since Omniscience is itself uncastable. Either that, or you're just playing a very bad storm deck.
In regards to everything relating to Omniscience.. read above post.


In essence, Omniscience is an enabler. It allows you to cast spells for free and basically, win the game. That means you need something to cast (for free) that makes it worth playing, ie. a huge guy (Emrakul/Jizzlebrand) or a tutor that will fetch a spell that wins the game. Seems good; however, Dream Halls and Hive Mind are viable because you can actually cast the damn thing in a reasonable amount of time. If you can't find SnT, you just play the control role for a few turns, lay down a City or Tomb to give you a little acceleration, and then win once you cast your enchantment of choice.

In short, Omniscience is an enabler that needs an enabler so that you can play something. Its not going to work in SnT based combo or SneakShow. High Tide, though.. this is actually an interesting concept. High Tide is a much better enabler as the deck doesn't at all rely on Omniscience. Like Hi-val was saying, its kinda like an overcosted Mind Over Matter that straight up wins the game when it resolves in High Tide. I don't know if this will actually see play though. Time Spiral is already the best 'you just won the game' spell that the deck can play.

If I try to break Ominscience, I think I would try it in UB Dark Tide before I tried it in High Tide. Dark Tide has an easier time getting to 10 without drawing any cards; it plays 8 High Tide effects in the maindeck and more recently has access to the Snapcaster/Snap engine. From that point, the deck plays X Tendrils and 4 Snapcaster (and/or X Remand). Also, the deck now has Time Spiral.

Also, the deck can play Doomsday/Shelldock Isle package in the sideboard if you like, you can play Discard as disruption in addition to countermagic, as well as Perish.

Nobody has really been working on this deck but its more than capable of winning on turn 3 as you don't have to do much sculpting to find High Tides. Rather, you try to sculpt so that ideally, you don't need to draw any cards. Often you can just get to enough mana to natural Tendrils with Snapcaster/Remand. Also, the deck can mini-Tendrils against aggro to buy itself more time; Snapcaster enables you to go off again easily and quickly without needing too invest too many cards to start the combo.

The deck is primarily weak to Wasteland because Underground Seas and Watery Graves are needed to produce mana under both High Tide and Bubbling Muck.

For the record, UB Dark Tide is a blast to play.

[alderon666]

Cast this

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=26422&type=card
sacrificing this

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=15138&type=card
getting this and the new enchantment

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=179437&type=card

PROFIT?

Add Cabal Therapy, Show and Tell and some random colored win conditions and you're set. Remember, you heard it here first! (LOL)

[hyperchord24]

Is the new dragon good enough in dragon stompy?

[Shawon]

If it dealt 2 damage instead of 1, it would be playable. 5/5 flier with haste, kill Delvers for free? Not too bad.

But it doesn't, so no, it's not good enough in Dragon Stompy.

[KevinTrudeau]

Cathedral of War (nonbasic land that enters the battlefield tapped that can tap for a colorless and has exalted) seems like it has potential in M@verick's Maverick list; I like that it can give Birds of Paradise a way to activate Jitte.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Serra Avenger reprint in M13.

[Gheizen64]

New R dragon, amazing how bad it is. It require u to be attacked FIVE TIMES before it can do anything. Red worst creature color confirmed.

[morgan_coke]

That dragon would have been cool if they'd changed it to Serra Avenger style wording and added firebreathing.

[Lord Seth]

New R dragon, amazing how bad it is. It require u to be attacked FIVE TIMES before it can do anything.And then you have an 8/8 flyer at your disposal. I mean, sure, you do have to be attacked five times, but that statement feels a little like saying "Baneslayer Angel requires you to have FIVE MANA before it can do anything. Amazing how bad it is." Granted, Baneslayer Angel is a bit weak for Legacy, but you didn't say "amazing how bad it is in Legacy," you just said "amazing how bad it is" period.

I really doubt the card will see play in Legacy, and I'm dubious about its prospects the other formats as well, but I can't say it's amazingly bad, or even necessarily "bad" at all (not competitive=/=bad, at least to me).

[Awaclus]

New R dragon, amazing how bad it is. It require u to be attacked FIVE TIMES before it can do anything. Red worst creature color confirmed.
It works pretty well with the new Ajani though.

[PunkRocker1134]

Am I reading the text of this new dragon wrong, or doesn't it trigger for each separate creature attacking you? It says whenever a creature attacks you, so doesn't that mean if two creatures attack you, you get two separate triggers?

[DrJones]

The dragon only says it has to have five +1/+1 counters on it in order to be able to attack. I can do that without having to let the opponent attack me even once.

[Vacrix]

Lol why do I want to break this Dragon so bad...

4 Slumbering Dragon
4 Hunger of the Howlpack
4 Blessings of Nature
= lulz Casual Forum comboz

[Gheizen64]

And then you have an 8/8 flyer at your disposal. I mean, sure, you do have to be attacked five times, but that statement feels a little like saying "Baneslayer Angel requires you to have FIVE MANA before it can do anything. Amazing how bad it is." Granted, Baneslayer Angel is a bit weak for Legacy, but you didn't say "amazing how bad it is in Legacy," you just said "amazing how bad it is" period.

I really doubt the card will see play in Legacy, and I'm dubious about its prospects the other formats as well, but I can't say it's amazingly bad, or even necessarily "bad" at all (not competitive=/=bad, at least to me).

Dude, the most played creatures in Legacy are Delver, Goyf, KotR and probably Goose. Being attacked 5 times by those mean 15 damage. And only if you played this before they attacked even once, else you'd be dead.

It's not horrible, it's worse than Mons's goblin raiders by far.

[Gheizen64]

On the other hand blue get a better Lord of Atlantis (don't give +1+1 to opposing merfolks). zZzz

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/images/120626-mer0.jpg

[rxavage]

If they would have let you block with the dragon it wouldn't be so bad, but it's terrible as it is.

[Vacrix]

I thought Merfolk had enough Lords already. Guess not. So they can basically play 16 lords now? Or is it 20?

[majikal]

On the other hand blue get a better Lord of Atlantis (don't give +1+1 to opposing merfolks). zZzz

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/images/120626-mer0.jpg
So now Merfolk has 8 2-mana lords. Is that enough to make it a real deck again?

[Vacrix]

Heh... you can only Bolt so many lords before they start raping you with their Tridents. I think Folk just got outclassed by Delver and friends. 3/2 evasive one drop puts on a clock fast enough that you don't need to run a bunch of lords just to make your creatures compete with everything else in the format.

Also, Goblins has gotten a lot of good resources lately, ie. Krenko and Cavern of Souls. If both try to make a resurgence at the same time, I think Merfolk will fall by the way side again.

It seems a bit odd to just print something like this by itself. Perhaps there are more Folk to be spoiled. Maybe they'll get one more playable.

EDIT:
Forgot about Augur of Bolas. Perhaps a new version of Folk will emerge that runs more instants/sorceries. In that case, it might be able to compliment Silvergill by giving you 8 1U, card advantage creatures. Also, Augur of Bolas gives you card quality while Silvergill just replaces itself.

[ScatmanX]

EDIT:
Forgot about Augur of Bolas. Perhaps a new version of Folk will emerge that runs more instants/sorceries. In that case, it might be able to compliment Silvergill by giving you 8 1U, card advantage creatures. Also, Augur of Bolas gives you card quality while Silvergill just replaces itself.
I don't think this guy agree:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132735
Edit: and yeah, goblins got a nice 1 off, but c'mon!
A better Lord of Atlantis?!?

[colo]

20 Lords + Cavern of Souls = ouch!

[Mirrislegend]

Why didn't they just reprint Lord of Atlantis? Is there any reason to print a functionally IDENTICAL card?

[Koby]

Why didn't they just reprint Lord of Atlantis? Is there any reason to print a functionally IDENTICAL card?

They heard Alex Bertoncini is coming back. I think they want him to keep playing.

[Nihil Credo]

We should feel very grateful that Terminus is in the format now.

Also, is it me or does this look not-useless? It's a decent body and the ability, while expensive, is fairly easy to turn into CA with any sort of flickering / bounce (granted, there aren't many good cards with those effects atm). Plus it handles Emrakul and can punch past Mother of Runes without wasting cards (since it gets countered on illegal target).

http://i.imgur.com/SvAuo.jpg



Why didn't they just reprint Lord of Atlantis? Is there any reason to print a functionally IDENTICAL card?It's not functionally identical, it doesn't affect your opponents' Merfolks. For rotating players it's a slight improvement, and if they even took a look at Legacy they would have seen that Merfolk wasn't oppressing anyone of late.

[Aggro_zombies]

We should feel very grateful that Terminus is in the format now.

Also, is it me or does this look not-useless? It's a decent body and the ability, while expensive, is fairly easy to turn into CA with any sort of flickering / bounce. Plus it handles Emrakul and can punch past Mother of Runes without wasting cards (since it gets countered on illegal target).

http://i.imgur.com/SvAuo.jpg
2U and tap probably kills it. That, or the one toughness.

@the new Merfolk lord: not impressed. I wasn't aware that Merfolk's problems stemmed from a lack of lords.

EDIT: If anyone ever plays Void Stalker against me in EDH, though, I totally intend to make a bunch of Protoss jokes. I mean, look at that thing.

[TheShaun]

Why didn't they just reprint Lord of Atlantis? Is there any reason to print a functionally IDENTICAL card?

Not identical but close. Lord of Atlantis buffs your opponent's creatures too, this guy is only your own.

[Infinitium]

Well, it's good to see that they're sticking to their design philosophy of making blue creatures comparatively cheaper than analogous creatures in other colors.

[Koby]

Well, it's good to see that they're sticking to their design philosophy of making blue creatures comparatively cheaper than analogous creatures in other colors.

Merfolk gets its fifth lord, and a token generator. Goblin gets a 4 drop token generator. These are not the droids you were looking for /jedi/

[Humphrey]

Y NO 1 Mana Lord?


Let discuss the potential other Lords?

Will they all just be functional reprints with updated mechanic? So

Mons Goblin King 1RR
Other Goblins you control yaddayadda

etc?

[KobeBryan]

Why didn't they just reprint Lord of Atlantis? Is there any reason to print a functionally IDENTICAL card?

No..ur wrong man. This guy is better than LOA

[Arsenal]

Was the "lack" of Lords the problem with Merfolk? Is the new Lord going to vault Merfolk back into tippy-top Tier 1?

[Lord Seth]

Dude, the most played creatures in Legacy are Delver, Goyf, KotR and probably Goose.Uh, let's look at my message again:
"[Y]ou didn't say "amazing how bad it is in Legacy," you just said "amazing how bad it is" period." So just pointing to Legacy at most would prove it's weak...in Legacy. There's other formats. Even then, something not being able to make it in Legacy doesn't mean it's bad, it just means it isn't as good as the cards that are played in it. "Not playable in Legacy" doesn't mean a card is a Chimney Imp.


Being attacked 5 times by those mean 15 damage. And only if you played this before they attacked even once, else you'd be dead.If you didn't block or kill a single one of the creatures, sure. But I'd think most players would do something like that...

It's not horrible,Then why did you say it's "amazing how bad it is"?

it's worse than Mons's goblin raiders by far.So it's not horrible, but it's worse than Mon's Goblin Raiders--a card strictly worse than than practically every other R for 1/1 creature in the game--"by far"? What?

It's at worst a decent card in casual, so I have to object to it being "amazingly" bad.


Well, it's good to see that they're sticking to their design philosophy of making blue creatures comparatively cheaper than analogous creatures in other colors.Haha. Still, while it'll displace Lord of Atlantis, I'm not sure if it'll improve Merfolk that much.

[ScatmanX]

Mons Goblin King 1RR
Other Goblins you control yaddayadda
Mon's, Goblin Overloard would be an awesome name.

[TsumiBand]

Dude, whatever.

I don't think that the new Merfolk lord is going to reinvigorate that particular deck, I just for the life of me cannot figure out why the most playable Crusade effects are Blue. Ever since fucking Lorwyn, this seems to be the case, when Merfolk suddenly got a billion lords and became the best Sliver deck you'll ever play. Buhh.

It's a strict nerd rage but I think it's a valid one. Blue is supposed to have shitty creatures, especially the weenies, not "Slivers you don't have to splash for". Forget about the landwalk for a second, how is this guy not secretly White?

But yada yada, Snapcaster should have been Red and ____ should have been some other color, Blue gets all the toys. Whatever. Like I said, it probably won't matter a damn that it's been printed.

[Aggro_zombies]

Was the "lack" of Lords the problem with Merfolk? Is the new Lord going to vault Merfolk back into tippy-top Tier 1?
No and no.

Merfolk is a weak deck that became good because of the confluence of several metagame factors and the fact that there was no better way to answer them at the time. Those factors don't really exist anymore, so Merfolk will continue to be a marginally playable relic deck.

[Humphrey]

Actually Slivers and Merfolk are missing a 2 mana Hexproof Lord

Im pretty sure, Merfolk will crawl back into metagame with this LoA II
GW is almost gone and Merfolk even made it to the upper ranks on scg 2 weeks ago.

[Tacosnape]

Merfolk actually can adapt with this. Merfolk's problems were multiple-fold, but have gotten better. Here's why:

1. Merfolk's biggest problem, Lord-wise, is that only two of the lords it had were actually any good in Legacy - Lord of Atlantis, and Merrow Reejerey. Sovereign was shitty, and Coralhelm was slow.

2. Granting Islandwalk is -incredible- in this format right now.

3. Merfolk never really adjusted to Cavern of Souls. With this and a second 2-drop Lord, Merfolk doesn't actually need Aether Vial anymore, which was always a subpar card in a deck that struggled to draw enough cards to be relevant. Instead, that spot can be relevant cards: Spell Pierce, Vapor Snag, Jitte, whatever. If your world is full of RUG Delver? Sure. A couple of Vials are still pretty real. But four isn't the right call anymore.

So, you know. I personally think Merfolk gains a good bit from this. Because now it can just play -better- Lords. Eight 2-drop Lords / Evasion enablers seems pretty real to me. And with tools to adjust to the rest of the metagame, this deck's pretty playable.

(For the record, I'd play something like)

12 Island
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Mutavault
3 Wasteland

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Waterfront Bouncer
1 Coralhelm Commander

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Vapor Snag
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Cursed Totem
1 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Which I think would function reasonably well in the current metagame.

Second Edit: What the deck would really need to be seriously tier 1 again would be a 1-drop on power level equal to Cursecatcher (Sorry, Cosi's Trickster, but I don't think you cut it at the moment.) If only Waterfront Bouncer were 1 mana..

[Aggro_zombies]

Daze seems kind of bad in a deck where just under half your lands can't be returned by it.

I mean, one of the big problems with Merfolk was that it was a mono-colored deck that could occasionally get color-screwed, which is both amusing and kind of depressing. Vial was a crutch to help that problem in addition to making free, uncounterable creatures.

Besides, if the problem was not drawing enough relevant cards, maybe the deck should consider Brainstorm and/or Ponder. The lines of reasoning behind not running cantrips always struck me as dubious at best.

[Tacosnape]

12 Islands should probably be enough to support Daze. If not, cut a Cavern and make it 13. Daze isn't bad in a blue deck that likes to tap out pretty regularly. And from years of Goblin playing, I found 16 colored sources to result in pretty consistent double of that mana. I mean, look. It's quite possible I'm wrong about cutting Aether Vial. Just saying. Options to evolve exist.

All of this is beside the point though. The point is, this isn't "Another Merfolk Lord." This is the best Merfolk Lord ever printed, period. The only other one remotely in contention for this title would be Reejerey. And between this and Cavern of Souls, a list exists somewhere to make this deck a contender again. I doubt it'll ever see the era of dominance it did the first time, but dismissing this card? Don't quite know there. I'll be picking up the fish again, personally, because I think it can compete fine in the current metagame, and can adjust to do whatever's necessary to beat whatever decks emerge.

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm not so much dismissing the card as I am dismissing the deck. As I see it, Merfolk has three big problems, none of which are solved by this card:

1) Merfolk is a monocolored deck with a manabase containing 35-40% colorless sources, yet it wants to hit UU reliably in the opening turns.

2) Merfolk eschews (for dubious reasons) the two best draw spells in the format (Brainstorm, JTMS) for a bad one (Standstill) if it runs one at all, yet it has problems with poor draws.

3) Merfolk's creatures all blow individually and only get good in the aggregate, so it has to commit heavily to the board in order to beat other creature decks. It's also in the curious position of being particularly vulnerable to spot removal since Plowing a lord saves you not just the lord's damage, but one damage off all the other creatures, too.

The new lord doesn't fix any of those problems and may exacerbate the third one if it directly replaces Coralhelm Commander, since that guy could at least turn into a 4/4 Flying.

[Humphrey]

@Taco Cutting Vial can never be the right choice. And Commander is the second best lord in merfolk.
But lets discuss this in the merfolk thread ;)

@A_Z

1. Thats why it runs vial and merfolk was one of the most consistent decks in the format for a long period. Sure sometimes it had bad draws, but usually it ran as smooth as RUG nowadays.
2. Silvergill Adept and Standstill are enough draw for that kind of deck. The densitiy of threats and counters make Brainstorm useless. The lack of shuffleeffects also.
3. If you have 3/x islandwalkers, you kill fast in this format.

Main problem with merfolk was the rising of GW, since it lacks the islands and plays big dudes. Also it was a little slow competing with Delver.
Well, GW is on the fall and this lords speeds the deck.

[alderon666]

With 8 Islandwalk lords could Aquitect's Will be a real card now?
I mean, it just makes all the creatures in GW look silly, as you can basically out aggro them by laying out lords and countering their removal/big threats, while islandwalking your way into victory.

[ScatmanX]

With 8 Islandwalk lords could Aquitect's Will be a real card now?
I mean, it just makes all the creatures in GW look silly, as you can basically out aggro them by laying out lords and countering their removal/big threats, while islandwalking your way into victory.
There is also Spreading Seas that cost one more, but not only always draws a card, but might colorscrew your opponent with Wasteland help.

[alderon666]

There is also [Spreading Seas[/cards] that cost one more, but not only always draws a card, but might colorscrew your opponent with Wasteland help.

There's that, but you have to also take in account that Will can be revealed for Silvergill Adept and triggers Reejerey ability.

[ScatmanX]

triggers Reejerey ability.
That makes it awesome. Considering it costs 1, it's way better in my view now.

[Barook]

There's also Tidal Warrior which could also manascrew your opponent and enable Islandwalk.

8 LoAs should make it better now.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This obviously helps Merfolk, which quite needed the help. Whether it's enough to push it back over the top...eh. Hard to say. I agree that the biggest problems are the clunkiness of the curve and the staleness of the lists people have been running, especially in not going into other colors/running Brainstorm.

[DragoFireheart]

There's also Tidal Warrior which could also manascrew your opponent and enable Islandwalk.

8 LoAs should make it better now.

- Yeah, having 8 LoA makes merfolk a lot better now. Short of decks with a lot of removal it'll become much easier to have islandwalkers. I'm not sure that Tidal Warrior is good enough for merfolk: blue is still a decent color and will enable them to cast cantrips to find colors, making him sorta irrelevant. Enbaling islandwalk against non-blue decks is pretty neat though.