[Brainstorming] RW Breaking Pillar

[Nutox]

In the aggressive pursuit of foolish ideas, I want to break Pyrostatic Pillar. I know it's been tried before.

I tried it in a creature-less GR Seismic Assault deck, it's slow but I'm still testing it online. It gives anything not named RUG or SneakShow grindy heart attacks, but in the end is probably horrible.

So in the name of an actual clock that can race decks Pillar is good against, here's RW Breaking Pillar:

// Creatures (12)
4 Thalia, Gaurdian of Thraben
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Stoneforge Mystic

// Spells (28)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
2-3 Shrapnel Blast
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
// 4x SoFI may be correct. SoFF = not cold to Goofy, 'Geese. SoWP needs testing. Batterskull?

// Lands (20)
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
// wastes are probably loose with PtE
4 Arid Mesa
4 Plateau
2 Plains
3 Mountain


// Sideboard (that's the hard part, will develop before playtesting online.)

Incidentally, this could be the deck that breaks Vexing Devil. Think about it. GodHand Monkey->Devil followed by City/(Diamond,Land)->Chalice@1 could be brutal on the play, and Pillar is just going to make the answers to him that much worse. Might he have a spot in here?

And with the creature count so low, making room for 4 more dudes might be right.

I know, I know. Straight up Burn is faster, and is a crappy sort of Combo deck. RDW is scarier. This deck would hose both of those, while presenting the same type of Fear they do. This deck is not cold to burn hate, especially after sideboarding. Opponent's creature removal is going to hose my board state, having only 12 creatures. Hopefully that's where Chalice and Pillar + burn spells come in.

Mox Diamond > Chrome Mox here, I would think. What are you gonna pitch? SFM->Sword with 2 pillars out is nice. The only cards CMC=3 are Simian Spirit Guide and the Swords, and if you're hardcasting a monkey, you're probably in trouble anyway.

Hardcasting swords is probably going to happen a lot, onto a Thalia, depending if I was on the play or draw with or without Pillar. Sneaking them under pillar is obviously a synergy.

E.E @ 0 + Wasteland for Sneak and Tell, Legacy Decks, etc. EE hoses my dudes, but is necessary, and goes great for that last Shrapnel Blast to the dome. Sneak is still gonna be a horrible matchup, but this clock is much faster on them than praying for KotR->Karakas. :cool:

It is also noted a resolved E.E. kills a Delver, moreso after said RU/G player FoW's and Snappy-blasts things like Chalice, Pillar. This deck laughs at Daze.

Lightning Helix, Shrapnel Blast-> Maintain life parity with 1x, 2x Pillars. 'Blast breaks the symmetry for what's probably going to be the usual game state of My Life = Opponents Life + 2. It also is castable under Chalice@1. (This deck NEVER wants to Chalice@2.) It's situationally horrible, so two copies here. It makes 4x Tormod's Crypt look sexy out of the SB, though.

Is this deck as cold to Tarmogoyf as I think at first glance? Maybe, maybe not. I'll be actually sleeving it up tomorrow. It's the only reason why Sword of Fire and Ice is not an auto-4.

4x Pillar 4x Chalice makes Snapcaster Mage's life a lot crappier, just had to mention that again.

Wasteland seems necessary in this deck. Hopefully the acceleration off Path to Exile will usually be negated by Pillar. You would think the land count would need to go up with Thalia, but look at the curve, and what we're doing.

The deck is cold to CounterTop. Something about Shattering Spree / Disenchant / Pyroblast out of the 'board getting CB'd anyway. What a shame said pilot can counter EE with a land.

Oh and, why no lightning bolt?

It doesn't take out fatties, and is a dead card under Chalice. I want ALL my burn to be live under Chalice@1. (Fireblast is AWESOME with Pillar, btw.) PtE takes out fatties, and is a dead card under Chalice. Bolt is crappy as hell with 2x Pillar out, I already know this from the GR Pillar Assault deck.

Then again, 6 burn spells (with Sword of Fire and Ice, though) with Pyrostatic Pillar may just be a horrible idea in the first place. But, have you tried casting 34 burn spells through double Pillar and Chalice? And also, like I suggested, Vexing Devil may have a home here, aside from his otherwise horrible nature. It could be the perfect janky deck for him.

Cursed Scroll looks awesome, but I fear locking it in my hand under Chalice. I should probably not fear that for 1/2 of it in the MD.

Sweepers... Hopefully 2xE.E. will come up in the situations I need. If this deck needs sweepers beyond that in the 'board, it's probably not worth sleeving up. Hitting my creatures AND my Pillars OR my swords (mox) just seems to hurt, but pyroclasm, beyond not being a legacy choice anymore, won't take out Goofy or KotR, Crusher, or any sworded-up dude. (though 4x SoFI on my part could mitigate that... anyways.)

SoWaP could be good against some decks, is probably still trash. SoFI is probably the clear winner.

I presume Maverick would hose this deck without me running what would amount to a transformational SB. On the other hand, I still get to run the E.Tutor board for tournament goodness, and they only have so many Pridemages (7x, haha) after I blow up a possible SoLaS. Which is another card this deck is dead to with Lightning Helix. But I heard SFM was on its slow way out anyway. Oh, Jitte wrecks me too. Hmm. Time for 1x Seismic Assault? Bah.

That's why I'm posting this here, so I can either get flamed out before I waste my time loading it up on cockatrice, or get some good ideas and fire it up when I get home from work tomorrow. I just brainstormed this and felt like a genius, rushing to my computer. I'd love some constructive feedback! I know it's been tried before. So tell me how to make my kitchen-table deck wreck house, then.:wink:

[AlmostGrown]

I must be missing something. Why is pyrostatic pillar in this deck? Doesn't that just kill you?

[Nutox]

I must be missing something. Why is pyrostatic pillar in this deck? Doesn't that just kill you?

1) Get ahead of Opp. in life total.

2) Cast Pillar.

3) If I got ahead by attacking with a creature and opp. would like to play draw-go, I beat him with said creature.

4) #1 and #2 are interchangeable with burn, resolved creatures.

5) If Opp. would like to win a game of magic and move on in a tournament, they will play spells.

5a) Dredge will see the usual hate out of the SB, plus spot removal to counter Bridge, etc. Not even worth boarding out Chalice(!), keeps Therapy at bay, and I have no 1cc spells. Remains to be seen.

6)Opp will play spells, I will answer wisely, keeping my life > his. At opportune moment, burn him out or swing for win with dude

7) Sword of Fire and Ice is supposed to be the cute combo here, I suppose. 12 maindeck "removal" spells make it kinda likely to connect, making it also a removal... permanent, not spell. Don't know what I'll do with all the drawn cards under a Pillar though. I'll see how bad it hoses me in testing.

This version might be kind to a couple Sulfuric Vortex in the 75, if smart Opps would just like to deck me on turns on the play.

Coming from behind on a bad game state is probably a weakness of this deck. Haven't tested it yet, I will report back. Not always will Pillar be out, Chalice does a lot of heavy lifting here too.

20 life goes pretty fast. Like when you're getting beaten down by a Bob on a bad draw. Brainstorm makes magic possible, and this is a (goyfless) way crapping on that in rogue fashion that, if tuned properly, could render your typical sideboard useless.

[Nutox]

Needs more Elspeth.

[GrdiVrag]

No offense, but the list looks really crappy. Those cards have like zero synergy. If you want to abuse Pyrostatic Pillar pillar then you should try to force your opponent to play as many spells as possible, not to try to tax them and lock them out with cards like Thalia, Chalice and Wasteland. And again, the taxing doesn't work because you're giving them lands with PtE... Another thing, you're running 4 equipment (without Batterskull) and only 12 dudes, of which 4 are legendary and 4 will probably end up exiled for mana.

The initial idea of getting ahead in life and dropping a Pillar is ok, but like I said, you should try to force your opponents to play as many spells as possible to maximize it's effect. Cards like Goblin Guide and PtE can provide them with enough lands to play those spells, and you could add something like Ankh of Mishra and Price of Progress to punish them even more. Those should be your core cards, then add Lightning Helix, Batterskull and Jitte to keep your life total high. You could even up the artifact count and add Goblin Welder, Galvanic Blast to shut off Ankh on your turn and get back equipment or even some artifact dudes.

[Poron]

0 and 1 cc cards in a 4@Chalice deck? I'm missing something

[Nutox]

No offense, but the list looks really crappy. Those cards have like zero synergy. If you want to abuse Pyrostatic Pillar pillar then you should try to force your opponent to play as many spells as possible, not to try to tax them and lock them out with cards like Thalia, Chalice and Wasteland. And again, the taxing doesn't work because you're giving them lands with PtE...

No, no offense taken! I'm happy to have someone call my list a steaming pile of turd, then offer thoughtful criticism and useful suggestions like yours. I want this to be a big brainstorming session. Your idea of Ankh + Welder with this deck is sweet, and gives it another axis on which to attack, making it a stronger deck idea. In fact, I will make a list trying out your suggestions and I will play it, and report.

I didn't spend more than 10 minutes whipping up that list, and I am DEFINITELY open to any and all suggestions, tunings, total remakings of the Idea, as long as it involves main-deck Pyrostatic Pillar. I posted it more as a thought-generator, than a deck ready-to-go. My RG Loam Assault Pillar deck is something much better, though lacking at the moment mid-game ooomph (it's also creatureless.) Still testing. That deck wants to be straight up Aggro Loam in the end regardless.

However, I think we should have a theoretical discussion about Pyrostatic Pillar, particularly with respect to the idea of "taxing" an opponent.

It's going to get long and rambling, because I am thinking out loud. I'm sorry, it's how I solve problems. Please join me.

A game of Magic is decided by game state; permanents, possible spells, life totals, player's brains. It can be as simple as "does this combo player have enough mana open to start comboing off?" to something as complex as your average mid-game clogged-board fair-deck attrition war.

Game state is (ultimately) determined, advanced, retracted, by casting spells (attacking creatures being previously cast spells.) Even Dredge is casting Dread Return from the GY. Pillar punishes players for casting spells. Board state, initiative, all that is determined in the end by the casting of spells.

If we could somehow break the symmetry of Pyrostatic Pillar, we could win off its back in the usual way, i.e. casting spells. It hasn't been done in a legacy-competetive fashion, presumably because it can't be done, without doing something dumb like Pillar + COP:Red effects wasting precious slots.

To win with Pillar, we have to have Opponent casting spells, and minimising our spells cast, right? Presumably doing this without our deck constantly getting us into bad game-states because we can't effectively cast spells to change them.

Winning board states, for example, early, resolved, active Knight or attacking 'Goyf or flipped Delver, are enabled by powerful 1CC spells. Mana dorks, digging cantrips, 1-drop spot removal for blockers or troublesome hatebears. Mother of Runes. /something about 'bolting Dark Confidant/

Given this Pillar deck is going to be 60 cards, many of which enable wins through the namesake card, we can't clog up slots with all the typical winning enablers PLUS the dudes they enable. Too many slots, too many spells to zap us by Pillar.

(Incidentally, this is why Stoneforge is good here. The other colors don't do much for the Pillar Plan: Countermagic = nonbo, discard=nonbo, green=GRB Aggro Loam)

Problem:
Coming back from behind with a Pillar in play.... = casting spells = Pillar ZAP.

Answer:
Making sure we don't get there in the first place.

I believe in eight copies of disruption to ensure we can reliably open the game with one. Chalice@1 is a great stall, Pillar on the play puts Opp on Warning: Bad Things Ahead.

"But why would you want to STOP opponent from casting spells??

I don't.

I want to force Opp to cast spells to answer bad game/board states and get hit by Pillar in the process, until he's in 2CMC bigass-bolt range. (Or, even awesomer, Fireblast, so I can do it when I'm at 1-2 Life.)

Also, there's no way I can FORCE Opponent to cast spells, especially if he just ramped into a turn-2 Knight while I had a sub-optimal opening hand, or I keep a great hand in a deck that's not running 8x fatties + 8x removal, or 14x counter suite. That's forcing ME to cast spells to regain favorable game state. Pillar ZAP.

Given Pillar restricts me to not casting answer spells to every threat Opp can throw at me, and keeps me from constantly casting spells to advance my board, I need disruption. Disruption that's not Black, or Blue, or 12x lopsided/overcosted (under Pillar) Lightning Bolts. (Ideally, this deck would operate BETTER with 2+ copies of Pillar out then just one, keeping in line with every other good non-legendary Magic card.) So, open with asymmetrical Chalice@1.

(4x 1cc Exile effect is probably a necessary evil in the direction this deck is taking. Chalice@0 will only be set against Petal/Mox in Combo (or aggro loam), and is part of the reason Simian Spirit Guide is in here. (That, as a beater, and to make the chances sky-high I can open with at least one turn-one 2cc spell. MAINDECK MOXES ARE WIN-MORE and probably get cut.) And it's not like Chalice will stay out forever, or always drop.

Giving opponent lands off Goblin Guide won't FORCE him to play spells in hand, or even necessarily play the land into an Ankh of Mishra, especially if he has board advantage. But, if I can Tax Opp with Wasteland, Thalia, Chalice, drop a SFM, then I can make Opp run into Ankh and Pillar to swing the board, and 'blast him soon after. Plus, Thalia gives me something to board out in the Maverick matchup. ;)

The worst thing to ME about running Chalice in a Red Deck is not being able to run Pyroblast out of the board, which I may not even do if the preboard-blue matchup is anywhere near "simply less than favorable" with all this MD hate.

----

Anyway GrdiVrag, your take on this idea is a good start for a real deck idea, and I will play with a brew like it online and see what's up. However, I want to focus more on making Pyrostatic Pillar a BOMB card, no, Cruise Missile, or, even *gasp* Breaking it, not just turning it into another piece of a rouge hate deck that gets taken out in the end for a card more proven in Legacy. Innovation!

We'll probably have to think outside the box on this one, as I suggested. Then again, I'm probably completely out of my tree on this one, way overthinking the game of Magic and ignoring what actually happens when two people sit down and shuffle a finite number of cards. I would love more feedback on ideas, not just on my crappy brainstorming list in the OP. :smile:

[Tacosnape]

Here's the thing about it. You just can't break some cards. I could start a thread talking about how bad I want to break Hunting Moa. Doesn't mean it's going to happen. Some cards just aren't good enough.

Pyrostatic Pillar is one of them. It's fundamentally never going to function in Legacy because almost every deck in the entire format can kill you without playing enough spells affected by Pyrostatic Pillar to matter.

Decks like Show and Tell are going to just pick the correct time to drop their spell and ignore the rest. Decks like Maverick are going to pick the right spells to play - One Mother and one Knight beats the deck. Decks like Dredge don't care about the card. Hell, even if you turn one Pyrostatic'd against Belcher, and they dropped ETW for 10-12 and took 10-12 accordingly, you're still probably going to lose this race.

I'm not saying the shell of this deck, a Boros equipment deck around Thalia and Stoneforge, isn't possibly a thing. I'm just saying Pyrostatic Pillar doesn't belong in it. Pyrostatic Pillar doesn't belong anywhere.

[Nutox]

Here's the thing about it. You just can't break some cards. I could start a thread talking about how bad I want to break Hunting Moa. Doesn't mean it's going to happen. Some cards just aren't good enough.


The name I chose for the thread is unfortunate. I'd like to change it to avoid getting trolled. I'll call it RW Monkey Pillar, then.



Pyrostatic Pillar is one of them. It's fundamentally never going to function in Legacy because almost every deck in the entire format can kill you without playing enough spells affected by Pyrostatic Pillar to matter.
[Quote]

You're right, it definitely belongs in a midrange shell or even some out-of-the-blue control shell. These things, I like thinking about, moreso than "how will I sideboard Mav. Vs. SneakShow?"

[quote]
I'm not saying the shell of this deck, a Boros equipment deck around Thalia and Stoneforge, isn't possibly a thing. I'm just saying Pyrostatic Pillar doesn't belong in it. Pyrostatic Pillar doesn't belong anywhere.


I thought it was a sideboard hate option for mono-red?