Experiences with Saf-T-Gard Sleeves? [Bonus: Rant!]

[colo]

Hey folks,

a few days ago, I had to shop for sleeves for some cards that found their way into my mailbox and had no home yet - my stockpile of Ultra Pro Matte Black was slowly but steadily being exhausted, and I had less than 15 or so spares left (I keep well over a thousand cards sleeved identically, so the hassles of building a deck does not incur a multi-hour sleeving nightmare...). Well, what did I get this time? "New Standard" sleeves from Ultra Pro, who I'll be referring to as Ultra Fucktards from now on. Why? Because their sleeves changed their size. So every new sleeve that I could (in theory) be buying won't fit in with my existing collection. And, as the shitty topping on that pie of crap, cards don't fit whilste being sleeved with KMC Perfect Fit inner sleeves any more. I don't know what crazy ape bullshit got into their tiny, rotten minds when they decided to redesign their sleeves, but I'm seriously, SERIOUSLY pissed about it. Why not at least continue making the "old" size in parallel or something? Assholes.

Anyway, enough ranting. I'll probably never buy anything from Ultra Fucktards again, so I'm looking to buy a raher large number of sleeves (in order to have my playable collection sleeved identically once more, and to not ever get in a situation like this again), I'm thinking like, 2000pcs or so. So I've been on the hunt for alterantive, "underdog"-gy sleeves yesterday evening (I'd like to avoid spending a small fortune on sleeves that I'll use to replace around 80% of perfectly fine Ultra Pro Matte Black ones to avoid feeling like I was ripped off, if you know what I mean.) I don't have any illusions about the longevity of sleeves - they all break eventually, so I'll make this more a question of quantity per Dollar (or Euro, really) and ease of availability than durability. I don't like Dragon Shields (too slippery for my taste), and other brands are hard to come by where I live, and cost even more than the alternatives.

What I came across are "Saf-T-Gard"-branded sleeves that come in packs of 750 at a rather cheap price: http://www.saftgardsupplies.com/c/DPT.html

I've been asking an US American reseller who's willing to ship to Europe if he knows if I can stick my cards in those with Perfect Fit sleeves between the card and this sleeve, but he answered somewhat evasively that "inner sleeves are not necessary with these sleeves". Yeah, right - does anyone of you happen to know if that means they do fot or not? Also, if you've ever tried using those sleeves to protect your cards, please share your experiences. At their price, they look like the bargain many of us probably have been looking for, if the quality is decent enough.

[Chikenbok]

16 dollars for 50 sleeves? Seems a bit pricey unless I'm reading something wrong here.

[thranmonster]

They are in packages of 50, but 1 order of $16 comes with 750 sleeves.

[colo]

That's right, you get 15 packs; each containing 50 sleeves. I'd order right away to have a peek, but shipping to my location costs more than the sleeves themselves. If anyone's feeling like giving it a try, I'd pony up some 5US$ or so via paypal if (s)he's willing to post a detailed sleeve review ;)

[danyul]

Maybe I'm being a bit cynical but I don't see how they can sell that many sleeves for that cheap and have the sleeves be any good at all. I'm not any kind of businessman or whatever but it just doesn't feel right. And even if they were only of moderate quality, they may not be good enough for you, considering how particular you seem to be regarding sleeves. And hey, I'm not knocking you for that. I'm just as picky.

I mean just look at the numbers. $8 for 100 Ultra Pro. $11 for 100 Dragon Shield. $16 for 750(!!) SAF-T-GARD?

This is ignoring alot of other factors that determine price but lets say you break it down and figure out how much you are paying PER SLEEVE. You probably get what you pay for.

edit - I just reread your post and I guess you just wanted a shitton of sleeves without going broke. Okay. In that case I'm dumb and this doesn't seem like a bad deal. Somebody buy these because now I'm curious too.

[colo]

I do not have insider perspective on the market of cardboard sleeves, but... considering what sleeves are made of (PVC) and what other (extremely cheap) products that is found in and how ease I figure they are to produce once you got the machinery up and running for cutting and fusing their halves together, and after applying the economics of scale to all these factors, I think the profit margin for your average card sleeve is probably pretty insane.

[thefringthing]

1) Your use case is a little unusual. Of course it's going to turn out poorly for you if you use fifteen thousand of a product, and require them all to be uniform. Do you want Ultra Pro to produce the old size sleeves just for you?

2) Perfect Fits totally fit inside the new Ultra Pros.

[kiblast]

1) Your use case is a little unusual. Of course it's going to turn out poorly for you if you use fifteen thousand of a product, and require them all to be uniform. Do you want Ultra Pro to produce the old size sleeves just for you?

2) Perfect Fits totally fit inside the new Ultra Pros.

I could'nt fit the KMC inside ultra pro's new sleeves as well.

Edit: they say the sleeves are 2-5/8" x 3-9/16". Just do the math in mm, considering that KMC perfect are 89x64 mm.

[Kuma]

I bought one pack of new Ultra Pros where I couldn't get perfect fits to go in, but I've bought dozens since and had no problems. It takes a little work sometimes, but it can be done without too much trouble.

For the record, it was red Ultra Pro Matte Red that I couldn't get the perfect fits in. I've had no problem with regular Ultra Pro sleeves of any color.

[sdematt]

Yeah, but the Pro Mattes are the better sleeve, so why would I both with regular ones?

-Matt

[colo]

@thefringthing: I don't require 15,000 sleeves; a mere 2,000 will do fine ;)

I tried fitting a card with a KMC perfect fit sleeve wrapped around into the Ultra Fucktard "New Standard" sleeves I bought in error, and out of maybe ten tries, I managed to get it done ONCE, and that only whilst pulling my hair out because it was actually really, really tricky - esp. when compared to my old sleeves of choice.

Please take note that if you do that double sleeving exercise correctly, you'll put the card into the inner sleeve with the card's top first, and put the sleeved card into the outer sleeve so that the open, bottom side goes first into the outer sleeve. If you do this with the "New Standard" sleeves, you'll end up pushing the card out of its inner sleeve while shoving everything into the outer sleeve... (I hope that's understandable, I'm not a native speaker, so please bear with me...)

Also, I'd end up with a few percent of my collection being "marked", as it's quite easily possible to check whether a card is sheltered by the (old) "Matte Black" or "New Standard" sleeve, as the former are a wee (but noticable) little bit more narrow. And having to sleeve all cards identically (in either "New Standard" or the old sleeves) whenever I decide to throw them in a deck together kinda defeats the purpose of why I'm doing this in the first place, right? :)

[GoblinSettler]

Also, I'd end up with a few percent of my collection being "marked", as it's quite easily possible to check whether a card is sheltered by the (old) "Matte Black" or "New Standard" sleeve, as the former are a wee (but noticable) little bit more narrow. And having to sleeve all cards identically (in either "New Standard" or the old sleeves) whenever I decide to throw them in a deck together kinda defeats the purpose of why I'm doing this in the first place, right? :)

My solution to this is to keep my cards sleeved up in perfect sizes. Then to slide those into 75 sleeves of whatever for a tournament. It is much easier to keep 75 sleeves looking consistent.

Say you change up a few slots in your sideboard. Even with identical outer sleeves, some card in you collection could look marked anyway, from the frequently used/never used sleeve condition.

[lochlan]

Somewhat off topic, I have heavily researched finding sleeves for KMC perfect fits (i.e. bought a ton of sleeves) and the ONLY solution is Dragon Shield. I would never buy any sleeve other than the "big 3," as no-name brands are always bad; I have yet to see anything other than a KMC, Dragon Shield, or Ultra Pro that wasn't absolute garbage.

Dragon Shields are pretty slippery when you first get them but it only takes about a dozen shuffles before they get scuffed, which increases the friction when you shuffle and makes them pretty much totally slip free.

The real downside is that they get crusty and dirty easier than any other sleeve I've used (even if you use a playmat), so you have to change them every few months. But, they're the only game in town for the double-sleeve plan, which IMO is the only way to play with your cards.

[colo]

@GoblinSettler: Point taken, but I like my "setup" in terms of sleeves very much. I hover between decks and sometimes even formats quite a bit. Say, I'll play UW Tempo and Death and Taxes (both share a fair amount of cards) in Legacy, and the "unpowered" build of D&T for a Modern tournament. When my girlfriend's playing too, we'll usually power up her casual list with some beef that sits in some of my other decks as well, etc. I honestly don't see me changing that practice, as it's proven to be as convenient as it gets when playing with actual, physical Magic cards.

I do own a pack of pink Dragon Shields, and they're still as slippery as they were when I bought them, although I've played maybe 20 or so games with them already. I could be wrong of course, but I can't make out any serious difference in handling them from when I first used them. Just not my cup of tea.

I test-ordered 100pcs of "Max Protection" yesterday in Europe; will report back if they're any good.

I'm also upping the paypal-bounty for a brave (probably US-based, so that shipping costs are kept in check) soul willing to order and review a pack of SAF-T-GARD sleeves to 10US$. Just post a review of the sleeves with some kind of proof that you're the controller of the associated source-account, and I'll send the money to an email address you PM me. Come on now; that's 6 bucks (excl. shipping) for 750 sleeves; SOMEONE must be willing to do that, right? :)

[Cerberus]

:eyebrow:

Sounds good as I would also like to check the things out but how would I prove that I am the one with the Paypal account? I would not mind having the shipping paid( it is$10 in the US, must be beastly where you are).


I'm also upping the paypal-bounty for a brave (probably US-based, so that shipping costs are kept in check) soul willing to order and review a pack of SAF-T-GARD sleeves to 10US$. Just post a review of the sleeves with some kind of proof that you're the controller of the associated source-account, and I'll send the money to an email address you PM me. Come on now; that's 6 bucks (excl. shipping) for 750 sleeves; SOMEONE must be willing to do that, right? :)

[colo]

The user posting a review of the sleeves sends me his/her paypal address, and will receive the 10US$. Simple and easy as that.

Shipping to Austria is ~35US$ for one pack of sleeves, ~45US$ for 2 and 3 packs - I stopped looking for rates for more at that point :)

Btw, I recently bought a small sample of "Max Protection" sleeves, and I gotta say - DAMN, those are STURDY. I'm contemplating doing a as-scientific-as-possible comparison of sleeves when I get the time, because I'd be nothing short of bewildered if there were any sleeves that can take more abuse than these. Their only problem (besides availabaility, which seems to be limited) is their colour - I'm not sure if a matte version exists.

[GoblinSettler]

Btw, I recently bought a small sample of "Max Protection" sleeves, and I gotta say - DAMN, those are STURDY. I'm contemplating doing a as-scientific-as-possible comparison of sleeves when I get the time, because I'd be nothing short of bewildered if there were any sleeves that can take more abuse than these. Their only problem (besides availabaility, which seems to be limited) is their colour - I'm not sure if a matte version exists.

I used lime green Max Protection sleeves for years. Still a favorite.

MP made a line of matte "Tournament Sleeves", but they have a different material. The plastic is thinner. Corners bend quickly and develop a crease. They look good and shuffle nicely, but I would not recommend the Max Pro Tournament Sleeves.

[Humphrey]

UltraPro changed its sleeves very often during the last years. And the quality got bad. I still use my sleeves bought in 1995/96. Im lucky I bought around 600 back then.

Well, welcome to capitalism, you need to change the sleeves and decrease the quality to sell more.

[JDK]

I regularly put KMC Perfect Fit into UltraPro (new normal ones, not matte). Fits like a charm. It's odd, because I had trouble putting the UltraPro Pro-Fit into them (some of them slightly stick out of the outer sleeve).

I've recently bought two packs of the Matte-Series, but didn't want open them before GP Ghent. I will probably do so and test if the KMC Perfect Fit fit into them.

[(nameless one)]

For the longest time, I've been using the Ultra Pro Japanese ones (white sleeves) but I find that overtime, with all the shuffling with my Legacy decks, the corners deteriorate.

I recently started doing Dragon Shields. The last tournament I played, I double sleeved Perfect Fits with Dragon Shields (white). Apparently my deck looked like a 100card deck. I had to use an EDH deckbox to accomodate it (with sideboard and tokens).


I tried looking these Saf T-Gard sleeves but I cant seem to find them. Are they just exclusive online buys?

[colo]

Perfectly possible that they're only sold online, yeah. My offer still stands btw. :)

[XdeckX]

I recently started doing Dragon Shields. The last tournament I played, I double sleeved Perfect Fits with Dragon Shields (white). Apparently my deck looked like a 100card deck. I had to use an EDH deckbox to accomodate it (with sideboard and tokens).

I've been using Dragon Shields for years now. Excellent sleeves. But yesterday I got deckchecked at a GPT and got a warning for playing a marked deck. Dragon Shields are not identical in length (eventhough they came from the same 100-sleeve box) which the judge didnt appreciate.

So while I will still use them for casual and regulare tourneys I will be forced to find some other sleeves for competative tournaments. I just really dislike Ultra Pro sleeves in general. They feel really flimsy and weak compared to DS.
A teammate suggested I used KMC so I'm going to give them a go (apparently KMC gold and silver are the best and closest to Dragon Shields)

[from Cairo]

I've been using Dragon Shields for years now. Excellent sleeves. But yesterday I got deckchecked at a GPT and got a warning for playing a marked deck. Dragon Shields are not identical in length (eventhough they came from the same 100-sleeve box) which the judge didnt appreciate.


Same thing happened to a friend of mine a few years back. I've only had the problem once with Dragon Shields' sizes/cuts mismatching in a given box, but comparing different boxes of them have noticed it more.


A teammate suggested I used KMC so I'm going to give them a go (apparently KMC gold and silver are the best and closest to Dragon Shields)
KMC used to be better than they are now, but yea with Yanoman out of the game, I think KMC and Dragon Shields are really the only sleeves worth shopping.

[Cerberus]

I ordered some. I will post a review when they get here.

[colo]

Awesome! Looking forward to reading that :)

[Tinefol]

In the meanwhile, I have a batch of those coming:
http://maydaygames.com/mtg-card-sleeves-black-backed-textured-80-pack.html

Hoping they're good, there have been a review here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/772301/mayday-games-new-black-backed-and-textured-sleeves
When I get them I'll try to write my own.

[Tinefol]

So, I got a batch of 10 packs of Mayday Games Sleeves (MDG).

They're evenly cut: I've compared the sleeves from these packs and they seem to be of the same length.
Good quality - they just don't look like shit
The perfect fits fit just perfectly, there's no problem with inserting them and they don't just slide out on their own.
They're opaque, hurray for my Delvers.
The back is 'roughly' textured, much like on Ultra Pro Mattes, and there's a nice feel with that back.
Shuffling is easy and nice, you don't have to apply a lot of force, meaning that corners should be more durable.
The newly sleeved deck doesn't suddenly spread from your hand all across the table, like KMC and Dragon Shield tend to do.
'Rough' back probably also means that sleeves don't collect as much sweat and dirt from hands and table, as slicky KMCs and Dragon Shields do.
No crappy marks or annoying holograms
They're quite thick, a bit thicker than Ultra Pros, so that probably should add to durability.


I'll check the durability and how they play next week, but from a first look, MDGs are one of the best sleeves I've used for a while. Certainly much better than those new crappy Ultra pros, and KMC, which started to split recently (which hasn't happened with with older series). You can check the photos on the link above.

[colo]

Thanks a lot for the input; those do indeed sound great. Looking forward to more in-depth reviews if you happen to find any kind of extraordinary, uncommon sleeve choices. ;)

[Philipp2293]

Hi, Colo, if you actually consider ordering the sleeves which were just reviewed, would you mind splitting the order?

[colo]

If they are affordable enough (including shipping and import taxes/fees, etc.), I'm absolutely sure we can work something out :)

I'm positive that I can make it to tomorrow's tournament - if you're there, I'd be happy to talk this over.

[Philipp2293]

Sadface. Hope we can still work something out ;)

[danyul]

@Tinefol

Can you double sleeve with those Mayday sleeves? With the KMC Perfect Fit Sleeves?

[Technics]

750 per box, packaged in 50 count pack

16 bucks for 50 sleeves. SUPER expensive.

/thread

[Tinefol]

@Tinefol

Can you double sleeve with those Mayday sleeves? With the KMC Perfect Fit Sleeves?

Errm, didn't I say so in my review? I think I did.

Played a tournament with double sleeved MDGs. No splits, no problems and no noticeable signs of wear yet. Been very smooth in shuffling.

[danyul]

Ah okay. I must have missed that. I might have to pick some of these up then. Thanks for letting us know about them.

[colo]

Sadface. Hope we can still work something out ;)

Heheh, yeah, couldn't make it as something unexpected turned up at work ;) I have high hopes for next weeks though. Looking forward to it!

[Tinefol]

Note, MDG has a free shipping coupon promo on their facebook page. Just ordered another batch of 10 packs, saving $14 on shipping (yeah its expensive overseas).

[Philipp2293]

Received my MDG sleeves yesterday, played FNM with them, first impression is really good.

They kinda remind me of old ultra pro raven black before the size change, only a little tighter. Sleeving was really easy, out of 2 sleeved decks I hadn't one single problem with getting a perfect sized card in.

Shuffling was also good, but, well, since the sleeves are brand new I guess it's too early to make a judgement.

Will report back after a few more tournaments.

[danyul]

Yeah I got some MayDayGames sleeves a few weeks ago. Tried them out. Loved them. And I just ordered more. After shipping, for me, they are only 6 bucks for 80. They accommodate double sleeves with KMC Perfect Fits, well, perfectly. They shuffle nicely. That have that nice textured back like the Ultra Pro Mattes. And shiz. They are just the best sleeves I've ever used.

Go get some.

[rxavage]

Yeah I got some MayDayGames sleeves a few weeks ago. Tried them out. Loved them. And I just ordered more. After shipping, for me, they are only 6 bucks for 80. They accommodate double sleeves with KMC Perfect Fits, well, perfectly. They shuffle nicely. That have that nice textured back like the Ultra Pro Mattes. And shiz. They are just the best sleeves I've ever used.

Go get some.

I think I found the sleeve I've been looking for, a sleeve as sturdy as KMC or Dragon Shield but with the textured back of the Ultra Pros.

[danyul]

Yeah the Dragon Shields, for guys who double sleeve, would be second pick. They were nice for awhile but they tend to stick together and pick up oils and random dirty faster than any other sleeve I've owned. And they are kinda pricey. Go MayDay. Feel joy in your loins.

[rxavage]

That's why i dislike the Dragon Shields. I just started double sleeving my cards and I won't go back to playing single sleeved again. Anyone that doesn't double sleeve is a fool, especially when you consider the cost of legacy.

[Stinky-Dinkins]

When you double sleeve, you put the cards inside the Perfect Fit upside down so that when it goes into the second sleeve the PF opening is at the bottom of the outer sleeve or do you have the PF sleeve's opening point in the same direction as the outer sleeve's? This is the Perfect Fit sleeve that's used: http://www.trollandtoad.com/p331259.html and not this: http://www.trollandtoad.com/p331260.html, right?

I've never double sleeved before, but I'm thinking I might as well try it out. Shit is just too expensive to risk getting damaged.

[danyul]

People usually put their naked cards into the KMC perfect fits with the opening on the bottom. And yeah you wanna use the KMC sleeves in the red packaging. The green one is for YuGiOh sized cards.

You can double sleeve with Dragon Shields but there is a particular method to doing so, explained earlier in this thread, where you start to insert it up to a point, then flip the whole thing over and press the card down, on a hard and flat surface, to finish the job.

You can also double sleeve with MayDayGames sleeves by just tossing the one into the other. No tricks needed.

[Stinky-Dinkins]

Got it, thanks. I'll just order some of the May DayGames sleeves then, I don't want to have to dick around with them to get 'em to work easily.

[majikal]

750 per box, packaged in 50 count pack

16 bucks for 50 sleeves. SUPER expensive.

/thread
Price: $15.99
Shipping Weight: 3.00 pounds

Unless 50 sleeves weigh 3 pounds, I think you get the whole box of 750. ;)