Sort of Budget Sedris EDH

[TsumiBand]

Commander
Sedris, the Traitor King


Lands - 35

Command Tower
Rupture Spire

Steam Vents

Akoum Refuge
Crumbling Necropolis
Dimir Guildgate
Dragonskull Summit
Drowned Catacomb
Izzet Guildgate
Jwar Isle Refuge
Rakdos Guildgate
Sulfur Falls
Sulfurous Springs
Underground River

Dimir Aqueduct
Izzet Boilerworks
Rakdos Carnarium

Cephalid Coliseum
Tolaria West
Bojuka Bog

Bad River
Bloodstained Mire
Evolving Wilds
Terramorphic Expanse

Temple of the False God

Island x4
Swamp x3
Mountain x3


Creatures - 22
Archaeomancer
Mulldrifter
Draining Whelk
Deadeye Navigator
Sphinx of Uthuun
Palinchron

Fleshbag Marauder
Corpse Connoisseur
Visara the Dreadful
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
Rune-Scarred Demon
Sepulchral Primordial
Sheoldred, Whispering One

Anger
Conquering Manticore
Tyrant of Discord
Bogardan Hellkite

Nucklavee
Crosis, the Purger
Garza Zol, Plague Queen

Triskelion
Pathrazer of Ulamog


Enchantments - 3

Animate Dead
Necromancy

Stranglehold


Sorceries - 18
Call to Mind
Mystic Retrieval
Concentrate

Sign in Blood
Stitch Together
Victimize
Buried Alive
Zombify
Dread Return
Diabolic Tutor
Damnation
Beacon of Unrest
Demonic Collusion
Diabolic Revelation

Gamble
Faithless Looting

Diabolic Vision
Cruel Ultimatum

Instants - 8
Frantic Search
Blue Sun's Zenith
Fact or Fiction
Mystical Teachings
Jace's Ingenuity

Corpse Dance

Starstorm

Thoughtflare


Artifacts - 13
Sol Ring
Fellwar Stone
Coldsteel Heart
Sky Diamond
Charcoal Diamond
Fire Diamond
Rakdos Signet
Izzet Signet
Dimir Signet
Darksteel Ingot
Obelisk of Grixis
Gilded Lotus
Nevinyrral's Disk


Lots and lots of dicking around in the graveyard, with a handful of relevant combo wins.

Deadeye Navigator and Sedris are just about made for each other. Anything that would be exiled due to Unearth can be exiled by DEN instead; Unearth's official Oracle wording basically says its replacement effect doesn't apply if the creature is actually exiled by a different effect (the card doesn't reflect this very well, but it totally works). This basically allows you to keep anything you Unearth, so in this way Sedris is actually a really crucial and permanent reanimation spell on a stick when DEN is around. This trick also works with Corpse Dance and may situationally be easier to get away with. There's a lot of ways to go stupid with DEN and creatures with "enters the battlefield" effects.

Infinite mana via Deadeye Navigator and Palinchron lets you just win with:
Bogardan Hellkite (blink Hellkite via DEN until all other players took 5 too many times)
Rune-Scarred Demon + Blue Sun's Zenith (blink Demon via DEN until all other players draw too many cards)
Not an instant win with DENchron, but hilarious nonetheless:
Archaeomancer/Nucklavee + Cruel Ultimatum (favorite, but maybe don't draw your whole deck)
DEN + Tyrant of Discord
DEN + Draining Whelk
DEN + Conquering Manticore + their guys (DEN can blink an opponent's creature once you control it, which puts them on the battlefield under your control and they are treated as new permanents with no memory of the 'return at end of turn' clause)

For good measure, Mike-Trike was thrown in there. If you're not in on the combo, Mikaeus the Unhallowed gives your non-Human creatures +1/+1 and Undying. Triskelion can then shoot a player (or creature if for some reason you have to do so) then target itself so that it dies with no counters on it. In this way, Undying puts it back into play. It returns to play with 4 +1/+1 counters on it, ready to do it all over again - but don't forget that Mikaeus also gives all your non-Human creatures +1/+1, so in case anyone calls you out to demonstrate the combo, Triskelion shoots itself for 2 damage with Mikaeus in play.

At any rate, this combo is especially good and good for you off of a Victimize. Buried Alive + Victimize is basically a shitty 6 mana Tooth and Nail assuming you have a dude in play. Good thing commanders are always dudes; worse comes to worst you can sack that shithead for combo justice, but there are a few derpy guys like Mulldrifter, Corpse Connoisseur, or Anger that don't mind taking one for the team.

You can also go for the grindy Sheoldred path to victory, which nobody likes seeing. So even if you cannot combo out, you have your basic Reanimator style deck with a lot of recursion. Bojuka Bog is a wrecking, but fuck it.

There's also a handful of playable Grixis stuff. Damnation is crucial, Blatant Thievery can turn things in your favor right quick, Stranglehold is a nasty card to play early, and Mind Control should probably be like Bribery or Treachery but whatever.

Still need junk like Demonic Tutor. Will probably try to sneak Liliana Vess in there, the lack of real tutors is a bummer.

Also, in case it isn't obvious - budget list is budgety. So the presence of old painlands is obviously suboptimal, and on occasion it does sort of color one's ability to go off the way they'd like to; you can't just tap a Cephalid Coliseum for U when you're Denchroning, for example. I expect these will be phased out as I'm able to do so, but for now they are there as a necessary evil, because too many basics in my experience just will not cut it.

[GrdiVrag]

Your manabase looks OK, but you should add stuff like Bojuka Bog and Halimar Depths. Also, try to trade away the pain lands and get M10 tap duals. The thing you should really do is to upgrade your mana ramp, things like Expedition Map, Journeyer's Kite, Armillary Sphere, Wayfarer's Bauble, Darksteel Ingot and Coalition Relic are not really expensive, but they mean a lot. Also, Sol Ring dropped in price.
Furthermore, here are some cheap cards that should ensure you beat those 9-year-olds most of the time: Clone, Thada Adel, Acquisitor, Body Double, Trinket Mage, Counterspell, Dismiss, Dissipate, Fact or Fiction, Hinder, Jace's Ingenuity, Opportunity, Muddle the Mixture, Mystical Teachings, Pongify, Redirect, Crosis Charm, Praetor's Grasp, Rite of Replication, Sever the Bloodline, Oblivion Stone, Decree of Pain, Dregs of Sorrow, Mimic Vat, Nihil Spellbomb, Hatred, Tainted Strike.
Good luck!

[TsumiBand]

Your manabase looks OK, but you should add stuff like Bojuka Bog and Halimar Depths. Also, try to trade away the pain lands and get M10 tap duals. The thing you should really do is to upgrade your mana ramp, things like Expedition Map, Journeyer's Kite, Armillary Sphere, Wayfarer's Bauble, Darksteel Ingot and Coalition Relic are not really expensive, but they mean a lot. Also, Sol Ring dropped in price.
Furthermore, here are some cheap cards that should ensure you beat those 9-year-olds most of the time: Clone, Thada Adel, Acquisitor, Body Double, Trinket Mage, Counterspell, Dismiss, Dissipate, Fact or Fiction, Hinder, Jace's Ingenuity, Opportunity, Muddle the Mixture, Mystical Teachings, Pongify, Redirect, Crosis Charm, Praetor's Grasp, Rite of Replication, Sever the Bloodline, Oblivion Stone, Decree of Pain, Dregs of Sorrow, Mimic Vat, Nihil Spellbomb, Hatred, Tainted Strike.
Good luck!

I'm already playing a handful of those things, but yeah I could stand to throw in some Transmute effects. Fucking love Transmute. I did almost pick up a new Sol Ring the other day, but just sort of didn't.

[TsumiBand]

I had the opportunity to play against a decent Sliver Queen deck the other day, and man did I realize how useless my general is, haha.

I mean... I knew, but I didn't know.

So Sedris is easily the new general, and without having looked at any other decklists involving Sedris, I'm guessing that it's probably at its best when it works something like a good Sneak Attack deck. Using Sneak or Sedris to Nicol Bolas a hand seems good, but there's probably something more to do that it could be doing. I'm thinking about Volrath's Shapeshifter since I happened across one in my jank collection; Sedris will just exile the critter after I unearth it though, so there's a bit of a disconnect there.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[TsumiBand]

Much has changed since last post. I realized that Sedris can be quite fantastic. I'm used to Kaalia just coming down like turn 2 - 3 and being like "BITCH WHAT" and this deck doesn't really do that at all, which was the entire point of playing/building it.

The main post has been updated, as well as a little exposition on card choices. A lot of jank has been taken out, and rather inexpensively I might add, which is what most of my hobbies are all about these days.

[TsumiBand]

Made a couple of changes. Notably Rorix Bladewing comes out as it doesn't do anything, and Sphinx of Uthuun comes in.

I'm considering the merit of running Flash, as the ability to play one of the fatties' ETB / LTB abilities early, only to recur it via Exhume or some other means seems like a real good time, if a bit Johnny-ish. And if nothing else, I just sneak it in later and pay 2 less on its CMC like a Don is supposed ta.

Lightning Greaves is out, as there's nothing in particular worth protecting or granting haste. I can grant haste via Anger, and generally Greaves protects a general but honestly, the deck doesn't require Sedris to function at full capacity - nor does it require him to have haste for him to go to work, so Greaves just always felt dead. Most removal is mass removal anyway, so Greaves is doubly superfluous.

Still need a Damnation and a Demonic Tutor. :/

[TsumiBand]

Will update the main thread when I get home from work. How did I forget about this gem for Reanimator-style decks?

Sheoldred, Whispering One

Evil Reya is evil. And amazing with Buried Alive and similar effects. She goes in over Flameblast Dragon, which I never drew and rarely seemed to want. The dragon's effect might be some good, but I almost always want my mana to go towards business spells.

The singleton counterspell Hinder came out for Concentrate. I feel really weird playing a deck with Islands and no countermagic, but like I said it always seems better to just be advancing the plan instead of trying to counterspell someone's general.

Other changes happened, but I don't remember what they was. ^____^

[TsumiBand]

Considering some of the cards from the new set. In particular:

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAG_RTR/HypersonicDragon.jpg

Hypersonic Dragon is probably only cute, but by the same token, the best spells in the deck so far are all Sorceries. Being able to EOT a Damnation or Tutor seems not bad. And of course, living the dream and EOT a Cruel Ultimatum, because fuck you.

Gates are going to replace Karoos, because I hate Karoos and Gates are cheap. Gates are cheap, and so am I. It's synergy.

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Vandalblast-Return-to-Ravnica-Spoilers.jpg

The overload effect seems p. good, also it will probably need to be paired with a Geddonish effect to be really worthwhile, and I sort of have disdain for the ones available in these colors. Still blowing out everyone else's artifacts sounds like a good time.

[TsumiBand]

I'm away from my deck, but I can say that I did finally acquire that Damnation and that went in over something worse than Damnation, so yeah.

So I virtually never cast Sedris, and it seems like a shame. I might be trying too hard to make him useful, but I did see these two cards that will nullify the Unearth RFG effect:

Teferi's Veil
Sundial of the Infinite

Since the delayed trigger only actually triggers once, as long as I can end the turn or otherwise circumvent the leaves-play trigger (which phasing does) then I can actually get some mileage out of Sedris. Which would be hilarious, except that neither of these cards really has any amazing interactions with anything else, so drawing them instead of cards that actually do stuff would be kind of stupid.

Is there some other way to get around the Exile effect of Unearth that I'm not aware of?

[Pastorofmuppets]

I'm away from my deck, but I can say that I did finally acquire that Damnation and that went in over something worse than Damnation, so yeah.

So I virtually never cast Sedris, and it seems like a shame. I might be trying too hard to make him useful, but I did see these two cards that will nullify the Unearth RFG effect:

Teferi's Veil
Sundial of the Infinite

Since the delayed trigger only actually triggers once, as long as I can end the turn or otherwise circumvent the leaves-play trigger (which phasing does) then I can actually get some mileage out of Sedris. Which would be hilarious, except that neither of these cards really has any amazing interactions with anything else, so drawing them instead of cards that actually do stuff would be kind of stupid.

Is there some other way to get around the Exile effect of Unearth that I'm not aware of?

Deadeye Navigator comes to mind.

[TsumiBand]

Deadeye Navigator comes to mind.

Sweet Jesus, yeah that guy.

How does Soulbond work when the bonded creature exiles itself and returns? If I understand it right it's no longer bonded, so the next guy Sedris returns could theoretically get Soulbonded, then repeat the same trick over and over. It's expensive as a motherfuck (:3::b::u: per dude) but it's a neat trick with all kinds of ETB stuff. I think I like it.

EDIT - Merry Christmas to me, I ran out with one of my small fortune of gift certificates and picked up Deadeye Navigator and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed along with Gamble and some other random junk. Updated main post.

[TsumiBand]

Updated main post. This deck actually has A Way To Win now.

DEN + Draining Whelk is lulz but Mikeaus + Glen Elandra is probs better. Just don't have a Glen :/

I'm interested in hearing some alternatives to some of the painlands in the deck. It was pointed out to me that I should be careful and explicit when going off with DEN and Palinchron, I can't just illustrate an infinite mana combo with Cephalid Coliseum as part of the jollies and I'd hate to get stuck on a painland for Blue mana. Derp. The title of the thread is still "sort of budget" so I can't be putting like, ABRU duals in or anything :( maybe just shocks will be fine

[TsumiBand]

Updated main post.

Adding Triskelion for the Mikaeus dickhead combo. So there's a real reason to play Victimize now, because it could just assemble the Voltron for the win.

Had to finally take out Hypersonic Dragon, it just about never did anything but I wanted it to SO BAD. I never once got to say "EOT, Ultimatum?" and it pains me. But dude just sucked, I just about never wanted to see him and even though most of the deck's noncreatures are sorceries it just never mattered.

:( :( :(

Still would like a Glen Elendra and a Demonic Tutor, but sometimes life is shitty. I may swap Starstorm for Vandalblast or Blasphemous Act, I think that is another spell I've never cast or tutored for because why in the blue hell would I.

There's probably a Primordial or a Titan I could throw in, but honestly everything that doesn't make "find target combo" better is kind of stupid. I have either the quick combo path or the Sheoldred plan, and all the other things just kind of feel like they are in the way. Eh.

[TsumiBand]

- Mind Control
- Blatant Thievery

+ Mystical Teachings
+ Demonic Collusion

I can't believe I wasn't using Demonic Collusion before. Its synergy with the gameplan should speak for itself; tutoring for a good spell and buying it back by pitching fat I didn't want in hand to begin with is only too good.

Mystical Teachings doesn't have a *ton* of targets, but it turns into any given Instant(including Blue Sun's Zenith), or a couple of critters (Draining Whelk, Bogardan Hellkite). So in this way, it basically transmutes into several win conditions once Den-chron makes functionally infinite mana.

Mind Control was never Bribery or Treachery or any of the good Control Magics, so I took it out. As for Blatant Thievery, I just genuinely never wanted it. So the majority of the permanent stealing nonsense is out, save the capacity to do so via Conquering Manticore and Deadeye Navigator - which is also kind of looking less favorable. Really, all the stealing stealer tricks in the deck just never seemed to fit, probably because the deck already has a Plan B and gaining control of stuff has just never fit into either one of those plans.

Having said that, I did add a Sepulchral Primordial, but that's got more direct interactions with the other things the deck was already doing; I can't really pipeline Blatant Thievery through the main methods of the deck, but I can take a Sepulchral Primordial and use it with either Plan A (play reanimator) or B(two card chombo wins).

[jcsy]

My budget Sedris
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/sedris-the-traitor-king-07-08-13-1/
Maybe you can get some ideas from it, as I've gotten some ideas from yours

Mine is also budget and I made it in 30 minutes out of what ever junks I had

Some in testing are not as strong as I have hoped, but need more testing (5 games so far multiplayer)

I noticed your mike & trike combo + victimize, and I might run that depending on whether my group is ok
I use powerful synergy with Kederekt Leviathan and Animate Dead/Necromancy
and Dance of the dead but I dont have that

also in addition to Teferi's Veil, Sundial of the infinite and Dead eye Navigator

you can use Void Maw
1 condition is that your creature must die, and be on its way to graveyard (before end of turn) since its dying, it enters the grave and you get 2 triggers
the trick is to stack the triggers properly, since there are 2 exile triggers at the same time
at the end, you want to stack in a way that void maw exiles it and puts it under itself, and not unearth
once done, you can send it back to the grave(+2/+2) and reuse unearth for further mileage

[TsumiBand]

My budget Sedris
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/sedris-the-traitor-king-07-08-13-1/
Maybe you can get some ideas from it, as I've gotten some ideas from yours

Mine is also budget and I made it in 30 minutes out of what ever junks I had

Some in testing are not as strong as I have hoped, but need more testing (5 games so far multiplayer)

I noticed your mike & trike combo + victimize, and I might run that depending on whether my group is ok
I use powerful synergy with Kederekt Leviathan and Animate Dead/Necromancy
and Dance of the dead but I dont have that

also in addition to Teferi's Veil, Sundial of the infinite and Dead eye Navigator

you can use Void Maw
1 condition is that your creature must die, and be on its way to graveyard (before end of turn) since its dying, it enters the grave and you get 2 triggers
the trick is to stack the triggers properly, since there are 2 exile triggers at the same time
at the end, you want to stack in a way that void maw exiles it and puts it under itself, and not unearth
once done, you can send it back to the grave(+2/+2) and reuse unearth for further mileage

Ooh Void Maw looks like a good runner-up to DEN. I wasn't too fond of other one-offs; Cold Storage and Sundial of the Infinite and random Blue blink spells and stuff that are just awkward and don't lend themselves to reusability. Looks like it follows the same rules as DEN - there are two replacement effects, I decide which one sticks (I choose Void Maw of course), and once it's exiled by Void Maw it is no longer subject to Unearth sads. Excellent.

[jcsy]

I was wondering why no Hamletback Goliath

i think he has smashed 2 opponents for me in a single game (with greeves/boots/fervor/unearth)

i liked your ideas on Nucklavee and Thoughtflare as opposed to my Careful Consideration

[TsumiBand]

I was wondering why no Hamletback Goliath

i think he has smashed 2 opponents for me in a single game (with greeves/boots/fervor/unearth)

i liked your ideas on Nucklavee and Thoughtflare as opposed to my Careful Consideration

Oh probably because (a) i only have one right now and it's in Wort the Raidmother (b) eh I think the deck runs enough two-card combos to eschew the kind that don't win the game.

As an example I had a silly start the other day in a 4-player game with like a turn 2 Pathrazer of Ulamog via, like, discard and Necromancy or something. The rest of the table freaked out and went out of their way to keep a stupid 9/9 off the table, which then allowed me to just assemble Voltron anyway. In this way the deck can just play either strategy; do I just DENchron for infinite and blink Hellkite forever? Or do I let you blow that out with a Bog/Crypt/etc, so I can just play Reanimator?

That reminds me, I need to take a look at Compulsion and Life's Finale. I can't believe I didn't think of Life's Finale sooner; blow up the board AND cast Buried Alive? Seems like a good idea.

[jcsy]

Oh probably because (a) i only have one right now and it's in Wort the Raidmother (b) eh I think the deck runs enough two-card combos to eschew the kind that don't win the game.

As an example I had a silly start the other day in a 4-player game with like a turn 2 Pathrazer of Ulamog via, like, discard and Necromancy or something. The rest of the table freaked out and went out of their way to keep a stupid 9/9 off the table, which then allowed me to just assemble Voltron anyway. In this way the deck can just play either strategy; do I just DENchron for infinite and blink Hellkite forever? Or do I let you blow that out with a Bog/Crypt/etc, so I can just play Reanimator?

That reminds me, I need to take a look at Compulsion and Life's Finale. I can't believe I didn't think of Life's Finale sooner; blow up the board AND cast Buried Alive? Seems like a good idea.

think its just buried alive for opponents

which sometimes might not be a good idea ^_^

[TsumiBand]

think its just buried alive for opponents

which sometimes might not be a good idea ^_^

Shit it does say opponent doesn't it. I thought it was target player.

Meh

[jcsy]

Shit it does say opponent doesn't it. I thought it was target player.

Meh

yes it says for target opponent

unless you run Scion of Darkness or Puppeteer Clique, then buried alive opponents usually its not smart

my group runs alot of grave recursions

from
Sword of Light and Shadow
Eternal Witness
Academy Ruins
Volrath's Stronghold
Sun Titan and Primordials :D

I currently make sure I can steal from opponents table, library, graveyard.
im lacking Sower of Temptation but mainly thats because its expensive :D

how is Sundial of the infinite working for you?

[TsumiBand]

yes it says for target opponent

unless you run Scion of Darkness or Puppeteer Clique, then buried alive opponents usually its not smart

my group runs alot of grave recursions

from
Sword of Light and Shadow
Eternal Witness
Academy Ruins
Volrath's Stronghold
Sun Titan and Primordials :D

I currently make sure I can steal from opponents table, library, graveyard.
im lacking Sower of Temptation but mainly thats because its expensive :D

how is Sundial of the infinite working for you?

I never ran Sundial because it is so limited in scope. Really my only Unearth-forever enabler is DEN.

I realize Deadeye Navigator has a huge target on it in this format, but that's because he is so good at what he does that in a deck like this there is literally no reason not to play it. It makes Sedris itself a reasonable play - for that reason alone it is just an auto-include - apart from the Void Maw technology you've pointed out to me the other controllable exile effects I have looked at are mostly one-shots or just too awkward to really implement realistically.

[TsumiBand]

...except DEN doesn't enable unearth forever. According to 702.83a, if the unearthed creature would leave the battlefield for anywhere else, it is exiled instead. That means that instead of it being exiled for DEN's ability, it is just exiled and won't be returning.

No, I get to choose which replacement effect exiles it. Unearth specifically says this:



702.83. Unearth
702.82a Unearth is an activated ability that functions while the card with unearth is in a graveyard. "Unearth [cost]" means "[Cost]: Return this card from your graveyard to the battlefield. It gains haste. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step. If it would leave the battlefield, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery."


The printed Unearth text glosses over that wording, but the key phrase is "instead of putting it anywhere else". Deadeye Navigator doesn't try to put it "anywhere else"; it tries to exile it. The player is then able to choose which effect applies, since two replacement effects are trying to do the same thing.



10/1/2008 If a creature returned to the battlefield with unearth would leave the battlefield for any reason, it's exiled instead -- unless the spell or ability that's causing the creature to leave the battlefield is actually trying to exile it! In that case, it succeeds at exiling it. If it later returns the creature card to the battlefield (as Oblivion Ring or Flickerwisp might, for example), the creature card will return to the battlefield as a new object with no relation to its previous existence. The unearth effect will no longer apply to it.


I wasn't actually aware of this trick when I first started building the deck around Sedris -- originally this pile was random Grixis jank featuring Sol'Kanar the Swamp King. I soon realized that Sol'Kanar does nothing and that Sedris + DEN at least has a shot at being both a reanimation spell as well as an ETB abuser. Palinchron ended up in the deck soon after, which led to using Bogardan Hellkite as an easy combo win.

This is why jscy's suggestion of Void Maw is intriguing, because I would be able to similarly overwrite Unearth's LTB trigger by exiling it to Void Maw + some kind of sacrifice outlet. DEN's shenanigans in many many EDH decks are well-traveled and he is hated by many - for this reason having an alternative means of trying to capitalize on ETB effects would be a not-terrible idea - plus Void Maw becomes arbitrarily large as the creature is dumped back into the bin from exile. Unfortunately it's a bit fragile because Void Maw in play under like a Wrath or something would exile all my in-play guys (as well as rrryone else's) and put Void Maw in the graveyard, thus exiling all the things fairly forever-ish. So I'd have to be cautious at the very least while it's in play.

[jcsy]

No, I get to choose which replacement effect exiles it. Unearth specifically says this:



The printed Unearth text glosses over that wording, but the key phrase is "instead of putting it anywhere else". Deadeye Navigator doesn't try to put it "anywhere else"; it tries to exile it. The player is then able to choose which effect applies, since two replacement effects are trying to do the same thing.



I wasn't actually aware of this trick when I first started building the deck around Sedris -- originally this pile was random Grixis jank featuring Sol'Kanar the Swamp King. I soon realized that Sol'Kanar does nothing and that Sedris + DEN at least has a shot at being both a reanimation spell as well as an ETB abuser. Palinchron ended up in the deck soon after, which led to using Bogardan Hellkite as an easy combo win.

This is why jscy's suggestion of Void Maw is intriguing, because I would be able to similarly overwrite Unearth's LTB trigger by exiling it to Void Maw + some kind of sacrifice outlet. DEN's shenanigans in many many EDH decks are well-traveled and he is hated by many - for this reason having an alternative means of trying to capitalize on ETB effects would be a not-terrible idea - plus Void Maw becomes arbitrarily large as the creature is dumped back into the bin from exile. Unfortunately it's a bit fragile because Void Maw in play under like a Wrath or something would exile all my in-play guys (as well as rrryone else's) and put Void Maw in the graveyard, thus exiling all the things fairly forever-ish. So I'd have to be cautious at the very least while it's in play.

a wrath effect is usually SORCERY speed, which means you already got them under Void Maw before your end step (usually via sac outlet towards unearth) , and already able to put them into your grave back at instant speed as well if such a need arises

unless you are talking about Cyclonic Rift or Evacuation
then you need to sac in response, exile via void maw, send it to grave via void maw, let the mass bounce resolve

i don't think there is a situation where the cards under Void Maw exiled with its first ability will result in exiling ALL of the things under it.
unless the opponent kills/removes/bounces it with a SPLIT SECOND spell, then all gets exiled together :D

correct me if im wrong?

[TsumiBand]

a wrath effect is usually SORCERY speed, which means you already got them under Void Maw before your end step (usually via sac outlet towards unearth) , and already able to put them into your grave back at instant speed as well if such a need arises

unless you are talking about Cyclonic Rift or Evacuation
then you need to sac in response, exile via void maw, send it to grave via void maw, let the mass bounce resolve

i don't think there is a situation where the cards under Void Maw exiled with its first ability will result in exiling ALL of the things under it.
unless the opponent kills/removes/bounces it with a SPLIT SECOND spell, then all gets exiled together :D

correct me if im wrong?

If I have a sac outlet, then it's fine; I sac to whatever (Goblin Bombardment, let's pretend - not very good probably, but who cares), Void Maw exiles them (regardless of Unearth or not) and then put them back in the yard with Void Maw's second ability. Void Maw can't exile itself to its ability, since it says "If another creature would die...", and so Void Maw dies when the whatever-speed Wrath effect occurs.

If I do not have a sacrifice outlet and a player Wraths, Void Maw's first ability will apply to all creatures and replace the Unearth's exile effect, then Void Maw will also die. Since Void Maw is toast, the cards just remain exiled - there was never a chance to activate Void Maw's second ability, and since it is in the graveyard now (or hand, in the case of Cyclonic Rift) it would be treated as a different object so it cannot return cards the game doesn't remember it exiled.

This might not be all bad, since Void Maw can exile opponent's creatures as well (it does not mention "creatures you control" after all). So the potential exists for me to exile everyone's creatures while also saving mine via the aforementioned sacrifice outlet, playing Void Maw's second ability, and then letting it die along with everyone else's creatures. Void Maw would then sit in my graveyard ready to return via whatever madness I choose to employ. Additionally if it is a damage based sweeper, like Starstorm or Blasphemous Act, I'm well able to pump my Void Maw to a survivable fatness and just choose to never return my opponent's terrible creatures. So that might not suck, like, at all.

[Aggro_zombies]

No, I get to choose which replacement effect exiles it. Unearth specifically says this:



The printed Unearth text glosses over that wording, but the key phrase is "instead of putting it anywhere else". Deadeye Navigator doesn't try to put it "anywhere else"; it tries to exile it. The player is then able to choose which effect applies, since two replacement effects are trying to do the same thing.



I wasn't actually aware of this trick when I first started building the deck around Sedris -- originally this pile was random Grixis jank featuring Sol'Kanar the Swamp King. I soon realized that Sol'Kanar does nothing and that Sedris + DEN at least has a shot at being both a reanimation spell as well as an ETB abuser. Palinchron ended up in the deck soon after, which led to using Bogardan Hellkite as an easy combo win.

This is why jscy's suggestion of Void Maw is intriguing, because I would be able to similarly overwrite Unearth's LTB trigger by exiling it to Void Maw + some kind of sacrifice outlet. DEN's shenanigans in many many EDH decks are well-traveled and he is hated by many - for this reason having an alternative means of trying to capitalize on ETB effects would be a not-terrible idea - plus Void Maw becomes arbitrarily large as the creature is dumped back into the bin from exile. Unfortunately it's a bit fragile because Void Maw in play under like a Wrath or something would exile all my in-play guys (as well as rrryone else's) and put Void Maw in the graveyard, thus exiling all the things fairly forever-ish. So I'd have to be cautious at the very least while it's in play.
Oh, huh, interesting. I thought it was a blanket replacement effect, but this is interesting.

Deleted my post since I was wrong.

[jcsy]

If I do not have a sacrifice outlet and a player Wraths, Void Maw's first ability will apply to all creatures and replace the Unearth's exile effect, then Void Maw will also die. Since Void Maw is toast, the cards just remain exiled - there was never a chance to activate Void Maw's second ability, and since it is in the graveyard now (or hand, in the case of Cyclonic Rift) it would be treated as a different object so it cannot return cards the game doesn't remember it exiled.


Ah I see now where this was going. You would definitely lose the creatures you have on the table (at the point of wrath) but you would already lost them at EOT due to unearth (2 exiles stacking each other)

If you say for example, have a few creatures (Not unearthed), then you would lose those forever

For example 2 situations;

Turn 7;

Void maw in play
Unearth : Bogardan Hellkite
Sac outlet : Sacrifice Bogardan Hellkite
Exile under Void Maw
Opponent wrath (Sorcery)
Dump Bogardan Hellkite to the graveyard
You get to still bring Void Maw & Hellkite from the grave again later



OR

Turn 7;

Void maw, Bone Shredder, Mulldrifter in play
No sac outlet!!
No unearth on table
Opponent Wrath (Sorcery)
You will never see Void Maw + Bone Shredder and Mulldrifter again because all exiled, lol :D (blame Void Maw)



So it very much depends on a few things;

Void maw being in play
Sac outlet
What you unearth'ed and what you have already in play


Correct me if I'm wrong on the understanding but thats about it
Its interesting however is situational
You definitely need a sac outlet to actually play Void Maw effectively and prevent exiling

[TsumiBand]

Ah I see now where this was going. You would definitely lose the creatures you have on the table (at the point of wrath) but you would already lost them at EOT due to unearth (2 exiles stacking each other)

If you say for example, have a few creatures (Not unearthed), then you would lose those forever

For example 2 situations;

Turn 7;

Void maw in play
Unearth : Bogardan Hellkite
Sac outlet : Sacrifice Bogardan Hellkite
Exile under Void Maw
Opponent wrath (Sorcery)
Dump Bogardan Hellkite to the graveyard
You get to still bring Void Maw & Hellkite from the grave again later



OR

Turn 7;

Void maw, Bone Shredder, Mulldrifter in play
No sac outlet!!
No unearth on table
Opponent Wrath (Sorcery)
You will never see Void Maw + Bone Shredder and Mulldrifter again because all exiled, lol :D (blame Void Maw)



So it very much depends on a few things;

Void maw being in play
Sac outlet
What you unearth'ed and what you have already in play


Correct me if I'm wrong on the understanding but thats about it
Its interesting however is situational
You definitely need a sac outlet to actually play Void Maw effectively and prevent exiling

I'm pretty sure that's right, since Unearth's EOT exile trigger never tries to send the creature to the graveyard so Void Maw's replacement effect cannot apply. A sac outlet is mandatory. That's part of the reason why I have stalled a bit on adding Void Maw to my pile; even though it is a "manaless" substitute for DEN in regard to skirting Unearth's exile clause, I'm not entirely sure it is worth needing +1 combo piece (sac outlet) to really be worth the investment. I mean, for one, the deck can already play Palinchron + DEN and just make infinite mana off of three lands, or reanimate Mika + Trike and win the day like a douchebag, so inasmuch as two-card combos go my deck's already sold. I do really like Void Maw, but it needs to be a situation where I feel like I'm reliably able to activate it. I'll scope your list again as I take it you're probably getting a lot out of that interaction.

[jcsy]

I'm pretty sure that's right, since Unearth's EOT exile trigger never tries to send the creature to the graveyard so Void Maw's replacement effect cannot apply. A sac outlet is mandatory. That's part of the reason why I have stalled a bit on adding Void Maw to my pile; even though it is a "manaless" substitute for DEN in regard to skirting Unearth's exile clause, I'm not entirely sure it is worth needing +1 combo piece (sac outlet) to really be worth the investment. I mean, for one, the deck can already play Palinchron + DEN and just make infinite mana off of three lands, or reanimate Mika + Trike and win the day like a douchebag, so inasmuch as two-card combos go my deck's already sold. I do really like Void Maw, but it needs to be a situation where I feel like I'm reliably able to activate it. I'll scope your list again as I take it you're probably getting a lot out of that interaction.

nah, i dont run many sac outlets. If I would, I would run stuff like Phyrexian Altar and maybe Attrition

these might fuel more mana/destroy in order to make more use out of it :D

at the moment, I found void maw to be just another beat stick :D
might remove him entirely

[TsumiBand]

nah, i dont run many sac outlets. If I would, I would run stuff like Phyrexian Altar and maybe Attrition

these might fuel more mana/destroy in order to make more use out of it :D

at the moment, I found void maw to be just another beat stick :D
might remove him entirely

I wouldn't pull it just yet, I feel like there's probably just some undiscovered technology lying in wait - Devour, for example, would lend itself to recursive effects via Void Maw + Sedris pretty well. There's also that artifact I don't remember what it's called, its ability is :3:, sac a guy: draw a card. I'll bet there is something worth taking a look at re: Void Maw.

[jcsy]

I wouldn't pull it just yet, I feel like there's probably just some undiscovered technology lying in wait - Devour, for example, would lend itself to recursive effects via Void Maw + Sedris pretty well. There's also that artifact I don't remember what it's called, its ability is :3:, sac a guy: draw a card. I'll bet there is something worth taking a look at re: Void Maw.

There are other options as well such as Altar of Dementia but that would go over the word Budget :D

If you are looking at purely keeping stuff (without using Void Maw), I believe Teferi's Veil also works as Phasing is secret tech

[TsumiBand]

There are other options as well such as Altar of Dementia but that would go over the word Budget :D

If you are looking at purely keeping stuff (without using Void Maw), I believe Teferi's Veil also works as Phasing is secret tech

Well but there's lots of things too like Carnage Altar or Goblin Bombardment that don't tap to activate and thus you could theoretically re-use it a few times per turn. So one could like Unearth for :2::b: and sac to Bombardment, then give Void Maw +2/+2 and replay the Unearth ability. Depending on which creature it is you're also milking the ETB/LTB triggers for great justice.

[jcsy]

Well but there's lots of things too like Carnage Altar or Goblin Bombardment that don't tap to activate and thus you could theoretically re-use it a few times per turn. So one could like Unearth for :2::b: and sac to Bombardment, then give Void Maw +2/+2 and replay the Unearth ability. Depending on which creature it is you're also milking the ETB/LTB triggers for great justice.

with the right pieces, it looks like its slightly better than Deadeye Navigator :D

i would still call Ashnod's Altar & Void Maw better, since it sort of makes it look :b:, unearth something, +2/+2 on void maw (has trample), gain an ETB effect, repeat depending on how many :b: mana you have

PS: Forgive me, Altar of Dementiaor Phyrexian Altar are expensive. Budgeting it up with Ashnod's Altar

[TsumiBand]

with the right pieces, it looks like its slightly better than Deadeye Navigator :D

i would still call Ashnod's Altar & Void Maw better, since it sort of makes it look :b:, unearth something, +2/+2 on void maw (has trample), gain an ETB effect, repeat depending on how many :b: mana you have

PS: Forgive me, Altar of Dementiaor Phyrexian Altar are expensive. Budgeting it up with Ashnod's Altar

Right, I mean it's totally the Voltron Assemble Hour, but a reasonable critter-based sacrifice-but-not combo might give Sedris a reason to live as well - so much of the time I don't even have to cast him, and that's just tragic. But a Void Maw/Sedris acoustic tour would be pretty sweet. I'm definitely scouring Gatherer every couple of intervals for something neat. It's a good catch, even if it is another "aw shucks I'm an engine with no real home" card.

[jcsy]

Right, I mean it's totally the Voltron Assemble Hour, but a reasonable critter-based sacrifice-but-not combo might give Sedris a reason to live as well - so much of the time I don't even have to cast him, and that's just tragic. But a Void Maw/Sedris acoustic tour would be pretty sweet. I'm definitely scouring Gatherer every couple of intervals for something neat. It's a good catch, even if it is another "aw shucks I'm an engine with no real home" card.

well i just picked up some cheap cards to include into my list

Wild Ricochet
Molten Primordial
Cyclonic Rift
Gem of becoming
Archaeomancer


this might help a little :)

i've removed Void Maw because as you said, its an engine-with-no-real-home card without a sac outlet (ive not put 1 in yet but not going to bother much)

[TsumiBand]

well i just picked up some cheap cards to include into my list

Wild Ricochet
Molten Primordial
Cyclonic Rift
Gem of becoming
Archaeomancer


this might help a little :)

i've removed Void Maw because as you said, its an engine-with-no-real-home card without a sac outlet (ive not put 1 in yet but not going to bother much)

See, and I'm about to cut some jank to put that guy in. LOL. I will find a way to make it work. If for no other reason than I kind of feel like a dick playing infinite mana combos and then whining about how Sedris doesn't matter. I prefer EDH decks that do rely on the commander to win, instead of just enabling 5-color goodStuff.dec to win the day.

Especially if you're going to use things like Molten Primordial and its friends like Zealous Conscripts I would encourage you to include Deadeye Navigator. You can blink any creatures they steal which of course has the same upshot as it does with Unearth; the permanent leaves play and returns and is treated as a new object. You don't own it of course, but you do control it indefinitely - the game will not remember the "until end of turn" clause of the sneak-thief you used to grab it.

I tried Gem of Becoming for a minute but I got rid of it. I might try it again. Some of the CIPT mana rocks are dumb and I hate them, so yeah.

[jcsy]

See, and I'm about to cut some jank to put that guy in. LOL. I will find a way to make it work. If for no other reason than I kind of feel like a dick playing infinite mana combos and then whining about how Sedris doesn't matter. I prefer EDH decks that do rely on the commander to win, instead of just enabling 5-color goodStuff.dec to win the day.

Especially if you're going to use things like Molten Primordial and its friends like Zealous Conscripts I would encourage you to include Deadeye Navigator. You can blink any creatures they steal which of course has the same upshot as it does with Unearth; the permanent leaves play and returns and is treated as a new object. You don't own it of course, but you do control it indefinitely - the game will not remember the "until end of turn" clause of the sneak-thief you used to grab it.

I tried Gem of Becoming for a minute but I got rid of it. I might try it again. Some of the CIPT mana rocks are dumb and I hate them, so yeah.

managed to get a play test of Molten Primordial today, and definitely was worth keeping in hand (i discarded a bunch of fatties only to be xiled by Bojuka Bog)
also managed to test Cyclonic Rift, and thats good any day even as a 2 mana bounce

i think the signets are decent as mana rocks, but not things like Worn Powerstone :D
felt slow and we can always use mana

im using Deadeye Navigator already, but havent yet abuse him... definitely will get killed on sight so mostly saving him
afraid others might even abuse it

i used to use Dreamstone Hedron but I think Gem of Becoming might be better, heck i'm even sure Thran Dynamo is better, lol

[TsumiBand]

managed to get a play test of Molten Primordial today, and definitely was worth keeping in hand (i discarded a bunch of fatties only to be xiled by Bojuka Bog)
also managed to test Cyclonic Rift, and thats good any day even as a 2 mana bounce

i think the signets are decent as mana rocks, but not things like Worn Powerstone :D
felt slow and we can always use mana

im using Deadeye Navigator already, but havent yet abuse him... definitely will get killed on sight so mostly saving him
afraid others might even abuse it

i used to use Dreamstone Hedron but I think Gem of Becoming might be better, heck i'm even sure Thran Dynamo is better, lol

Mostly I was referring to the Diamonds - Fire Diamond and friends. I have enough cheap ETB tapped lands :P and the hands with the best acceleration don't generally have those guys in it, just Signets and Sol Ring/Thran/Gilded Lotus, so why bother with lousy mana rocks that suck.

Yeah DEN needs to be kept safe. That's part of the reason I like Draining Whelk in the deck, because he can work with DEN to keep himself safe.

[jcsy]

ah those?!:laugh:

those are quite terrible, lol:laugh:

signets definitely better.. i did encounter slow early turns because of no-ramp-green situations

also don't have a spare

sol ring
thran dynamo
gilded lotus
:eek:

need to find better mana rocks to speed into mana turns 4-6 where our stuff are heavier and better

[jcsy]

I also was wondering whether this creature would work

Wormfang Drake

[TsumiBand]

I also was wondering whether this creature would work

Wormfang Drake

It should circumvent the Unearth exile, if that's what you mean - you just gotta get the guy back somehow to make it worthwhile.

Really anything that offers to exile a creature will allow you the chance to get around Unearth's "exile forever" thing. Deadeye Navigator is just generally the best guy for the job because it lets you exile and return the creature at Instant speed - but there are probably a few things out there that do a "good enough" job that would maybe let the deck not be so dependent on DEN.

[jcsy]

It should circumvent the Unearth exile, if that's what you mean - you just gotta get the guy back somehow to make it worthwhile.

Really anything that offers to exile a creature will allow you the chance to get around Unearth's "exile forever" thing. Deadeye Navigator is just generally the best guy for the job because it lets you exile and return the creature at Instant speed - but there are probably a few things out there that do a "good enough" job that would maybe let the deck not be so dependent on DEN.

I had DEN in hand and grave the other day and felt that it so broken , lol
I would have only used it if I required it or needed the action from it
It felt that it would have been abused by other blue players on the table other than myself and it was better to keep it in the hand
:D

yes i was talking about that bypassing the unearth exile ability but I dont seem to have space for it

guess the deck's about decent & complete for now :) been having real much fun with it if I can survive the first 5-6 turns board state
thanks mate :)

[coraz86]

Sedris is my go-to EDH deck, too, and I've been having great luck with Conjurer's Closet as a sort of DEN #2.

I'm also inordinately fond of Murmurs from Beyond as a mini-FoF, though I'm not sure what I'd cut from your list for it.

[TsumiBand]

I'm fairly sure my maindeck has changed a little since the last update, I'll have to check.

I find myself going less and less for the Red guy that blows up random permanents and I know that Sepulchral Primordial isn't in the main anymore (unless it is, feh). With two fairly disparate infinite combos in the deck ((a)Mike-Trike (b)DENchron -> anything that profits from that interaction) it's more often than not just far better to just go for the throat and kill all the table. Sadly this delegates the deck to "assholes only" status, which is kind of a shame because I haven't really been impelled to play with it for awhile (the table hasn't escalated to that level of douche in months), and the last time I did there just happened to be a guy who sat in last-minute and got pretty snarky about how I was pulling the old combo deck out against his Razia jank. Some days you Unearth the bear, somedays the bear Unearths you. vOv

I've actually been strongly considering taking out the 2card auto-win buttons and focusing more on the Sedris + exile interaction, since that was the original intent. That way I don't feel like a dickhead for busting it out, and I get to show people that the Commander isn't just a figurehead.

[jcsy]

and the last time I did there just happened to be a guy who sat in last-minute and got pretty snarky about how I was pulling the old combo deck out against his Razia jank. Some days you Unearth the bear, somedays the bear Unearths you. vOv

I've actually been strongly considering taking out the 2card auto-win buttons and focusing more on the Sedris + exile interaction, since that was the original intent. That way I don't feel like a dickhead for busting it out, and I get to show people that the Commander isn't just a figurehead.

I've built 2-3 decks AFTER Sedris, and while i tried my best to like them, I always loved Sedris for the unearth-the-bears
If you have played Diablo 3 as a Witch Doctor, Zombie Bears does fit our theme!

I've removed all possible 2card autowin cards, and even single auto win cards. If I get autowin cards its due to copying other people's COMBO pieces and punish them for running those.

I found its more fun this way, and randomly always killing people. For the primordial discusison, each of them have their win-rights and the RED, BLUE are decent enough. For the BLACK one, that's mostly very retarded sometimes and I avoid playing all 3. I probably just run 1 of them (depending on my mood). I swap them out from time to time , giving some surprise.

Sometimes now, I just copy other peoples primordials and throw them all back at the owner.

I will return to playing this deck again because it was my favourite of my decks.

Cheers!

[coraz86]

I've found that a good middle ground is Living Death + Ogre Battledriver; these are both cards that are good alone that accidentally win games when combined. That way you have that nuke if you need it without the deck being geared around doing that particular dumb thing. Ogre Battledriver also combines with Sedris well, fwiw.

I agree with both "not being a douchecanoe" and "playing your general now and again whether you need to or not," though.

[jcsy]

I've found that a good middle ground is Living Death + Ogre Battledriver; these are both cards that are good alone that accidentally win games when combined. That way you have that nuke if you need it without the deck being geared around doing that particular dumb thing. Ogre Battledriver also combines with Sedris well, fwiw.

I agree with both "not being a douchecanoe" and "playing your general now and again whether you need to or not," though.

how about new cards that could or definitely work with our general?
ive not updated my deck in like, a few months! :D