[GB Madness] Epiphany

[Aernil]

Lately I have been tinkering around with a Black Aggro deck, based on Zombies and recursive creatures, based on this idea (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23463-Deck-Zombardment&highlight=Goblin+Bombardment)

Soon Vengevines where added to get more recursive fun inspired from this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23463-Deck-Zombardment&highlight=Goblin+Bombardment) and this. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23316-Deck-Living-Dead-Girl&highlight=Goblin+Bombardment)
After some time I added Basking Rootwalla to be able to get Vengevine faster and it essentially became GB Madness.
All in all I had 4 open slots, where I tested Gitaxian Probe (nice with Cabal Therapy), Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Removal (Smother, Dismember, Ghastly Demise, Sickening Dreams) and additional discard outlets (Zombie Infestation).

After one game losing horrible to Belcher, I realized what I had been missing the whole time: Lion's Eye Diamond
So the 4 open slots where closed and the deck got extremely explosive.
In testing it became a problem to have a hand with LED, Vengevine and some creatures, but no opportunity to play 2 in that same turn (except for Rootwalla, or Land+Zombie+Gravecrawler from graveyard).
So atm I am testing Grave Scrabbler in that spot, and its doing very good.
So, basically what I am playing now, and tips on tuning it would be very appreciated.
Also, the SB is a big question mark, as the only thing I usually side in are 4 Extirpate.


3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
7 Swamp

4 Bloodghast
4 Vengevine
4 Gravecrawler
4 Putrid Imp
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Grave Scrabbler
4 Carrion Feeder

4 Cabal therapy
4 Entomb
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Darkblast

SB:
4 Extirpate
4 Krosan Grip
? XXX


Lands:
Pretty much the bare basics to make it possible to pump Rootwalla or hardcast Vengevine if needed.
Fetchlands mainly for additional Bloodghast triggers.

Bloodghast
In the deck since the very beginning of development. The ability to discard it to LED or Putrid Imp makes some really nice plays possible.
Situation:
T1: Play land, Cabal therapy
T2: Play Imp, discard Ghast, play fetch, get Ghast, flashback Therapy, crack Fetch, get Ghast

Vengevine
THE powerhouse of this deck. I think enough has been said about it.
Situation:
T1: Land, Imp, discard Vengevine, Rootwalla

Gravecrawler
Recursive creature #3. Due to low cost nice Vengevine enabler.
In combination with Carrion feeder been able to play 2 ceatures for Vengevine is guaranteed.
Also pumps Carrion Feeder to insane sizes and makes use of spare mana.
Situation:
T1: Land, Carrion Feeder
T2: Land, Cabal Therapy, Gravecrawler, flashback therapy
T3: Land, pump Feeder for 3

Putrid Imp
Well, its cheap, a discard outlet AND a Zombie, making it the perfect fit for the deck.
Situation:
See other sample plays

Basking Rootwalla
Cheap creature to play, even cheaper off Madness.
Also a solid attacker and a dedicated chumpblocker.
Situation:
See other sample plays

Grave Scrabbler
THE most crappy looking card in this deck, but actually quite good.
It does a lot of the stuff the deck needs:
It can be played off LED, is a Zombie, is rather cheap, its a creature, it can block and it actually can be of use against Reanimator.
Situation:
T1: LED, activate, discard 2x Vengevine, Gravecrawler, Carrion Feeder, Scrabbler, Gravecrawler. Play Scrabbler, get Feeder, play feeder, get Vengevines.

Carrion Feeder
Its cheap, its a zombie, does some incredible awesome stuff with Gravecrawler AND protects recursive creatures from getting plowed and from Terminus.
T1: Feeder
T2: Gravecrawler, sac it, play it again.
T3: Sac and play crawler 3x

Cabal therapy
At least a little amount of disruption is needed, and Therapy does it quite good.
Obviously nice with all the (recursive) creatures. Can be used as discard outlet if needed
T1: Cabal therapy
T2: Any creature, flashback Therapy

Entomb
Gets whatever you need most:
Gravecrawler to play 2 creatures
Bloodghast to annoy Control
Therapy if you need something gone from a hand.
Vengevine if you face no disruption and if you can go insane next turn
Darkblast if those Mother of Runes/lavamancer/Dark Confidant/Delver just really annoy you

Lion's Eye Diamond
Well, makes very insane play possible.
Situation:
See Scrabbler
T1: Land, Carrion Feeder, LED, discard hand for BBB, play and sac discarded Gravecrawler 3x, get Vengevines back
...

Darkblast
Recursive removal for all those pesky little annyoing creatures you want gone.
Mother of Runes, Lavamancer, (unflipped) Delver, Noble hierarch...
If timed right also kills blocking Goyfs, Oozes's etc.

[xazzax]

I use Buried Alive in my decklist.

[Aernil]

I use Buried Alive in my decklist.
Well, I even had to cut Dark Confidant because I rarely got the mana to actually cast him.
I also played Buried Alive prior to using LED, but it always seemed too slow

[evanmartyr]

I also played Buried Alive prior to using LED, but it always seemed too slow

It probably is.

I'd look into Big Game Hunter for the sideboard, or main. It's a great answer to non-progenitus show/reanimate/sneak attack type things.

Is Darkblast necessary? Seems like if you need cheap removal Snuff Out does almost everything you'd want DB to do, but it has benefits later in the game. It doesn't dredge, I suppose, but you're not trying to grind people out you want to beat them in the face.

What's your plan against Combo? Your acceleration can't really be used to push out Thorn or Thalia or anything, so just more hand disruption?

[Michael Keller]

Arrogant Wurm can be fun with LED. Dropping that into play with a Rootwalla will trigger at least one VV, FWIW.

[Aernil]

@ Big Game Hunter
Main: Not really that good, as it might kill off your own vengevine, or worse, a buffed carrion feeder.
But I definatly will try it in SB.

@ Darkblast
It really isnt necessary, but I really dont know what else to put in that slot.
As they occupy only 2 slots chances of drawing whatever fills that slot is rather low, so it more or less comes down to something with entomb fetchable.
Though Blast is incredible awesome against elves and goblins.


@ Combo Matchup
Well, it is a problem.
It is mostly decided by 2 factors:
Which player has the more broken Turn1
and
how many Therapys are in your hand/Yard?
In my experience 1 Therapy and a reasonable hand (aka a broken one^^) should slow them down enough to win.

Works reasonably good vs TES, ANT, High Tide, Show and Tell / Sneak Attack.
(most of those either need a solid life total to do something (Ad Nauseam, Griselbrand) or might be raced (a single Progenitus for example)).

Not so much against Reanimator, Dredge and Doomsday, although you can bounce a reanimate target with Scrabbler, and remove bridges with Carrion feeder/ Cabal therapy.
Id say its not an autoloss.

@ Arrogant Wurm
I actually was considering it instead of Scrabbler, but Scrabbler just does so much more than Wurm. Its a Zombie (needed for gravecrawler), returns a creature to your hand and costs 2 (which leaves one mana from LED to cast what it returned).

Id really be interested what to replace Darkblast with.
I tried a Life from the Loam, but not once wanted or needed it in 15 games.

Atm my SB would b e something like:

4 Big Game Hunter
4 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
4 Thoughtseize

[Loghead]

I like your deck very much dude!Good job!
About the grave scrabbler:Would you consider a call to the netherworld instead?What about Nether Traitor as an extra recursive creature?

[Mirrislegend]

Consider a red splash? Faithless Looting and Goblin Bombardment would be insane in this.

Also, taking a cue from the Modern version of this, what about Liliana of the Veil or Zombie Infestation?

[Aernil]

@ Call of the Netherworld
I have considered it, but I think Scrabbler just fits better (after all, its a creature helping get Vengevine back)

@ Red Splash
Actually I tried a BR version and was quite satified with it.
The with that version was, that it slowed you down significantly (which is in part balanced with the possibility of casting firestorm for a lot of damage).
I am not entirely sure the increased discard consistency and additional removal is worth the decrease of the manabases stability.
As for Goblin Bombardment:
When I tested the original Zombardment list, I felt the card was the weakest part of the deck.
As for Infestation and Liliana:
This deck actually wants to win asap, Liliana does not help that goal at all.
Infestation more or less does, but it decreases the deck overall speed by 2 turn (one for playing it, one for actually attacking with tokens)

Keep in mind, this deck in its current form is capable of (though unlikely) turn 2 kills and gets good chances of deciding the game in turn 3.

[Vacrix]

Arrogant Wurm can be fun with LED. Dropping that into play with a Rootwalla will trigger at least one VV, FWIW.
I agree on Arrogant Wurm. +1 creatures to add to the heavier beaters. It looks better than Grave Scrabbler but would be good if you could figure out how to run both of them because those would be something worthy of recursion. Other than that, it doesn't seem like there is that much you'd want to recur that doesn't just recur from the yard naturally. Feeders might be good for recursion but I think Goyf or Wurm's would be better choices.

Also, Wurm really is fantastic with LED. I've tried it before in something like this and it creates the most nuts plays. Just hope you don't get blown out by Terminus after you go all in.

[Aernil]

The reason why I think wurm is worse than scrabbler:
If you have to crack a LED and not enough mana to cast the feeder/imp in your hand, scrabbler gets it back, and due costing just 2, allows you to play whatever you returned.
Which means a hand without lands and Rootwalla, but LED and Scrabbler can actually win you the game.
You can also just go for T1 Therapy, play and crack LED, play scrabbler, get back creature, play it, flashback therapy.

If you play wurm, you need to have the mana available to cast Imp/Feeder BEFORE you pop LED (and it doesnt even let you return Gravecrawler)

[Michael Keller]

The reason why I think wurm is worse than scrabbler:
If you have to crack a LED and not enough mana to cast the feeder/imp in your hand, scrabbler gets it back, and due costing just 2, allows you to play whatever you returned.
Which means a hand without lands and Rootwalla, but LED and Scrabbler can actually win you the game.
You can also just go for T1 Therapy, play and crack LED, play scrabbler, get back creature, play it, flashback therapy.

If you play wurm, you need to have the mana available to cast Imp/Feeder BEFORE you pop LED (and it doesnt even let you return Gravecrawler)

Right, but you're playing Vengevine, which means you want to get them on the table as fast as you can. LED is a card that twists consistency around a bit. So if you dump a hand with LED into Wurm, Rootwalla and Vengevine, that's nine power turn one - at the cost of your hand.

In a situation like that, you can also play a land and Entomb and it would work just as well.

[Aernil]

Right, but you're playing Vengevine, which means you want to get them on the table as fast as you can. LED is a card that twists consistency around a bit. So if you dump a hand with LED into Wurm, Rootwalla and Vengevine, that's nine power turn one - at the cost of your hand.

In a situation like that, you can also play a land and Entomb and it would work just as well.

I really dont get your point.
How is in such a situtation Wurm better than Scrabbler?
Id rather have an additional creature (aka a card from hand on the field) rather than 2 power more but a wasted handcard (aka Imp or Feeder getting discarded).
While LED sacrifies consistency for speed, with Scrabbler you at least have the chance to get one more creature on the field, which might be very useful if that creature is Imp/Feeder (which it usually is).

As for Land-> Entomb being better:
Following hand:
Fetch, LED, Vengevine, Imp/Feeder, Gravecrawler, Entomb, Scrabbler/Wurm

where the play (undisrupted) would be with Scrabbler:
Fetch land, play entomb for Vengevine, play LED, crack LED for BBB, play Scrabbler, return Imp/Feeder, play Imp/Feeder, return 2x Vengevine

in comparison with Arrogant Wurm:
Fetch land, play Imp/Feeder, play and crack LED for GGG, play Wurm, get a Vengevine back

compared to the first scenario you'd do 4 damage less on turn one.

Also, with a topdecked scrabbler and a LED you could get Vengevines back (play+return something, or play Crawler), but with Wurm you don't have that opportunity.

If I did not get your point, please accept my apology.

[Flaat]

sorry to do the typical n&d untested suggestion. But coulnd't breakthrough be very good in this deck? im not sure if this play is even possible but here we go a hand with grave scrabbler, breakthrough and led

t 1 play U making land, play LeD, play breakthrough draw 4 discard hand, maddness grave scrabler trigger, response crack led pay for madness return whatever is usefull. that way you basicly discarded a 9card hand instead of a (7-3=5) card hand.. with ofcourse a chance for more vines ghasts etc.
please ignore if this is not possible. im abit nooby at madness trigger rules

[Aernil]

Should be possible, but I think adding another color hurts more than it helps (and Id rather splash red for Faithless looting and Firestorm)

[zabuza]

Hi,
I'm developing a deck likethis one and was more controllish oriented because never thought on LED (great find dude ;) ).

I can suggest you several cards that i found were nice in my build

big game hunter: you can madness it and save your ass against certain pairings (S&T and the so. Phyrexian metamorph is another tool but i prefer this because you can madness it with led and go far away. Beside of that it works well with the next card.

Demon of Death's Gate: a 9/9 flier trampler that can be recovered with scrabbler and played sacrifying any three black vanillas that will return from the grave (crawler, bloodghst, scrabbler, feeder,imp....). Is an añlternate win condition that doesn´t need the graveto work so this can be the plan B against decks with lot of gravehate

Shambling Shell: I recommend playing a singleton of this guy because you can ALWAYS recover it from grave so you solve the problem of not having any other zombie to recover your crawlers. Beside of that has a nice power and a good hability.

Undiscovered paradise: Play a couple of these to recover your ghast every turn and having more access to green in case of having to cast vengevines.

I'm playing all those cards between main and side in diferrent quantities but I`m very pleased with them.

I hope have helped you and again good finding with the LED's. I've bought 4 x them only to play this deck with them ;)

[Aernil]

Current list:


4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
6 Swamp

4 Vengevine
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
4 Carrion Feeder
4 Putrid Imp
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Grave Scrabbler

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Entomb
1 Darkblast
1 Crippling Fatigue
4 Cabal Therapy

SB:
4 Big Game Hunter
4 Extirpate
4 Krosan Grip
3 Thoughtseize


Atm seems like a decent list, being able to grind down control deck as well as race combo and aggro.
@ SB:
BGH obviously come in against anything big (aka Knights, Ooze, Griselbrand and Emrakul to name the most important).
Krosan Grip really is just in case of Moat, Humility or Ensnaring Bridge (usually they aren't needed against Counterbalance)
Extirpate comes in primarly against anything controllish you remove their Extractions/Terminus and against any GY dependend decks.
Thoughtseize are really just fillers, usually (if at all) borded in with extirpates

[whiley85]

I really like this list due to its speed and consistency. Scrabbler is a card we need imo to push the power of led over the top.
After some testing I think that the landcount could be too high. With LED you don't really need land in your starthand. 16-17 can already be enough.
Undiscovered paradise is an auto include for me, too. You can easily operate with just swamp and paradise and don't miss any landdrop if you want to recurr ghast every turn due to blockers or to pump feeder.
Wouldn't a SB entomb toolbox be nice with ancient grudge, ray of revelation and memory's journey? With paradise you could even hardcast them...

[Aernil]

Hmm, toolbox might be a solid idea.
Are there any cards that might be of use in that purpose, aside of those you mentioned?
Atm Grudge and Relevation seem best

[Gocho]

Perhaps you can use a single Dryad Arbor. You can recover it with Grave Scrabler to return your bloodghasts.

[Aernil]

Nice idea.
Gonna test it asap, thx.

[whiley85]

for arbor you need a lot of setup, entomb and scrabbler in hand + a discard outlet in play! Dakmor salvage is card disadvantage in comparism but a solid land drop if needed for your bloodghast clique :wink:
I suppose to have a maindeck toolbox like:
- recurring land for ghast (Dakmor salvage, dryad arbor with setup)
- recurring zombie for crawler (shambling shell, viscera dragger or dregscape zombie)

SB toolbox was already mentioned.

[Aernil]

I suppose Dakmor Salvage is more reliable than Arbor, and dregscape zombie also is a nice find deserving some testing.
Though I'd probably never waste a Entomb for a Salvage.
On the other hand EOT Entomb for Dregscape, Unearth->Crawler+Crawler/Therapy*Crawler -> return Vengevine would probably would have won me some games I lost.

Edit:
For aynone who's interested in, I just won 2-1 against SneakShow, g1 just raced him, g2 lost to bad hand +mull5, g3 I therapy'd his Sneak attack, put a Big Game hunter into play against his emrakul and proceeded to win with 2 bloodghasts, Grave Scrabbler and a Gravecrwaler. Pretty nice considering he had T0 Leyline of the Void

[whiley85]

I cut 2 land, Darkblast and crippling fatigue for 4 dark ritual :eek:
You can almost go off with every starting 7.
You have also the opportunity to therapy yourself for vengevines and cast 2 feeder/crawler same turn.

[Aernil]

Exactly what do you want to play off Ritual?
Pretty much any hand can be played with only 1 land T1

[whiley85]

While led is acceleration and discard outlet, you have imp as additional discard and ritual for acceleration.
I believe that tempo is the main goal. Having a turn 1 vengevine online is tempo.
You increase the number of times to make it happen.

[iPhael]

I love this deck idea. Been looking for a use for these Veggies haha.

+1 on Undiscovered Paradise. The card is simply the nuts in this shell and gives you so many options for splashes.

+1 on the Arrogant Wurm tech as well. You need a big beater to roll over Thalia and Co., Darkblast probably wont get there.

@Toolbox: In the Jund builds, how about Anger? That is, if you are committing to Badlands. Could help set up a real alpha strike vs passing the turn with them at 4 or so. (EOT Entomb, untap, kill you)

Either way, keep brewing! This is a solid deck idea, I like it a lot.

[Aernil]

As far as I am concerned, ther are no Jund builds.
They seem vastly inferior to me.
But if someone actually plays that, why would they need anger?
Your main attack power is already hasty. I'd rather have another vengevine in yard than hasty Gravecrawlers.

@Wurm
Somewhere here I already explained why Wurm sucks (especially compared to Grave Scrabbler).
There is just not enough space in the deck to play it.
The 2 flex slots are best served with Entomb targets

[Beautiful-Decay]

Hey all.

I'm atm. playing this deck and feel it is okay tiar 2, with potential to tiar 1 if we keep on constructing...

However I would like to see a complete list from the maker now the deck has been granted a few card suggestions in the thread. So I can update my own deck variant and hopefully add some constructive options to the deck.

So how is your list Aernil? has there been any recent updates there hasent been revieled on the page?