[Article] Eternal Europe: Uncluttering The Banned List

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Instead of more talking about what should be banned, I decided to do the opposite.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24289_Eternal_Europe_Uncluttering_the_Banned_List.html

Flame Away! (seems appropriate given this is kinda a B/R topic ;) )

[feline]

Nice, I was just doing the same the other day, and there was a small handful of cards that I looked at that were "possible" to lift. In either case, scouring over the article now, I check starcity games every evening at 9 pacific / 12 eastern, I don't know how I missed that article earlier >^,^<

out of all the cards listed for potiental unbanning as a possiblity, I would LOVE it if they unbanned mind's desire, but I don't think that one will ever happen! I think the only reason land tax is still banned is just because of the card advantage aspect of it, and it only nets basic lands anyway! I could see mind twist and worldgorger coming off, black vise as well, the only exception being the argument against it, that for 1 colorless you can do so much damage so fast, but it needs support to really break it. Balance is the ultimate pox, I don't see it coming off because of what it can do for so cheap, but i can see it coming off because you really have to build your deck around it to get the benefit the opponent normally would not, example being pox decks themselves >^,^< I could possibly see earth craft coming off, frantic search coming off would be awesome, it's just a careful study that has a 3 mana requirement to cast but is free when it's casted, as well unlike careful study, frantic search is an instant. Goblin recruiter, I don't think that will come off but I would not mind if it did since I have a goblin deck.

The 2 that remain that are noted that I lean more towards a no on would be memory jar and tolarian academy, BUT, I can see the argument, I would lean more towards a no on these, but one never knows. >^,^<

[Humphrey]

Do we really need another B/R speculation/discussion thread AGAIN??

[Final Fortune]

Mind Twist and Land Tax have no business on the banned list, and I think Frantic Search and Earth Craft are safe bets for the health of the format.

I'm not certain about Mind's Desire or Memory jar, despite people's cries, their incredibly mana restrictive and I don't think either of them pose any greater threat than Ad Nauseam already does - altho' Mind's Desire is another bomb for Burning Wish - I don't think Draw 7 cards get really dangerous until they reach Windfall power levels.

Tolarian Academy and Balance are just a "fuck no," I don't know if you can build a better storm deck around Tolarian Academy but you could definitely build a better Ancient Tomb deck around it and Balance is just a format warping card in the same way Oath of Druids is.

Black Vice is probably fine, U decks are a little more aggressive these days than they were when Keeper was a thing.

Worldgorger is just annoying, it can stay banned for the rules nightmare it creates alone.

[JDK]

Worldgorger can lead into draws, which is why it will stay banned.

[Gheizen64]

Of all the cards you've considered for unbanning, i think the worst offender its balance. Balance at its worst is a 2-mana Wrath. At its best, it is a 2-mana geddon + amnesia + wrath. I'd never consider unbanning it. It's a beautiful card with fantastic flavor, but it's also massively undercosted like Ancestral or Timewalk (probably less undercosted than Ancestral but more than Timewalk).


Black Vise is actually a bad card and nowhere comparable to Delver of secrets. Delver of secrets doesn't have a "this card do nothing T3 and after" like Vise does. Delver is a mediocre topdeck, but Vise does actually nothing if you don't draw it in your starting 7 or 8 on the draw. Delver require your decks to run a lot of spells and some manipulation, Vise require you to run either a stasis deck or a suicide/burn deck. Not to say FoW is an all time high in the format, with all combo and control decks running it.

The card i'd like to spends two words on is Academy. While most people will say that you're high etc... i actually agree with you. With no jewelry or Mana Vault, Academy combo decks wouldn't be as good as current combo decks. Only dedicated artifact decks like MUD would benefit from it, and they are currently on the bottom of the Legacy Meta, not to say that they are the easiest decks to hate out thanks to cards like Shattering Spree, Rack and Ruin, Hurkyll's Recall etc...
The beauty of Academy is that while it would empower MUD/Staxx etc... it wouldn't make T1 Trinisphere or Sphere of resistance any more possible than it is now (you'd need academy + 2 moxen, instead of sol land + 1 moxen), but it would give the deck a way smoother midgame, making it more consistent without making it more obxionous. The legendary part and the fact it is a bad T1 land would also make it risky to have as a 4-of in decks.
The bad part? Academy is on the reserved list and is not cheap right now. Making it legal in legacy would increase its cost a lot and it would get only worse.

The rest i think are pretty safe. Tax and Twist are no-brainers. Earthcraft and Vise are the next two worst possible cards. I also agree that desire is not as good as Spiral in High Tide and worse than AdN in storm due to the UU cost. Jar is considerably safe considering Reforge the soul see absolutely 0 play and metalworker in such a format is bad. Frantic Search and Recruiter i don't like. Search would make Time Spiral even better, and that deck can easily fight against countermagic and take 1-hour turns, just no. Recruiter is the same in the sense that you need too much time to set it up and i also think you're underestimating the strenght of goblin when you have a 2-card combo that autowin in it (recruiter + foodchain). Worldgorger is pretty mediocre, i agree, but it can cause way too many draws. The rule of the "infinite loop" should just be revised in a way that who cause the infinite loop lose the game, with that i see Worldgorger coming off easily, but without it's just an hassle.

[ShiftyKapree]

WGD is one card I wouldn't mind seeing come off the ban-list because its one of my favorite combos and I played it in Vintage all the time before I switched to legacy. It's can be a somewhat challenging deck to play which isn't a problem for me. As for mind twist goes I really wouldn't want to see that unbanned for the simple fact I don't like to play a bare hand. Good read though I enjoyed it

[xfxf]

About the Frantic Search, I previously argued in the B&R thread that it would be overpowerd in High Tide. Then I just tested the deck with Frantic Search for fun and the results were far from overpowered. I replaced the Candles in Di's list with Frantic Searches, effetively making the the deck and upgrade of the current Candleless lists. On paper it looks as if it would perform both as an untapper and a draw engine, can both boost your combo speed and grant you card advantage, also it would boost your post Spiral performance a great deal since you could discard dead lands to draw into more business while untapping... In the actual testing it was good to have in the deck but I can't say it pushed it over the edge and made a huge difference.

I don't know if it would be broken in other decks but I think it's safe to unban from a High Tide perspective.

[DragoFireheart]

Do we really need another B/R speculation/discussion thread AGAIN??

The quota must be met. The Internet gods of Magic: The Gathering demand it.

EDIT:

As much as I like unbanning stuff and discussing it, having Academy and Balance on your possible candidate list is a bad idea.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Thanks for reading/participating everybody :)

Some answers from my side:

As mentioned in the article, some of the cards I suggest I have my own reservations about, especially Balance, Frantic and Recruiter. They're unspecific enough to mean they should at least be considered, though (different from something like Necro, as much as I'd love to play that card again).

WGD: I don't really see why everybody is so up in arms about the draw thing. I mean it shouldn't come up more often than Flame Rift drawing the game given how much worse Dragon combo is than straight Reanimator. Not because the Dragon-deck has trouble drawing games (it's really easy to do) but because nobody should run the damn card. WGD honestly should see absolutely zero play with the quality of fatties we've been getting these last few years. Getting Iona or Jin back (or, at the moment, Griselbrand, though I hope that changes) is just better than trying to loop a Dragon hoping you also have a third card to win with.

Academy: I would have thought the same thing about Academy before testing it, only to find myself unable to even make it as good as the decks we already have in the format.

Balance is obviously extremely risky but would really need a dedicated shell to shine (Terminus seems better for control decks that only want to use it as a cheap Wrath). It's very possible the kind of shell needed to break it could be built, but even then the question remains if it would actually be good enough to do more than shake up the format a little. It's been such a long time that Balance has been accepted as totally broken (and therefore banned/restricted) that actually verifying that's still true feels like it is in order - which is why I included it as a possible candidate. There is a solid chance it still is too good but without at least thinking about it, we will never know.

@Humphrey: No, but I thought talking about it on a public stage for once might get some new opinions involved and might lead to us actually getting a few cards back.

@bilb_o: Did you also check Solidarity? That deck has already been getting a lot scarier with Snap and Snapcaster Mage. Seeing that your testing made it look fine in SpiralTide is a good start to an argument for it being an actual reasonable unban.

[Humphrey]

Thanks for reading/participating everybody :)
@Humphrey: No, but I thought talking about it on a public stage for once might get some new opinions involved and might lead to us actually getting a few cards back.


Well, at least on this forum everything has been said about the cards on the banlist OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

Sry mate, im sick of it. No need for a new thread, just link your article in the existing one.

[xfxf]

Solidarity has quite different mechanics than Spiral Tide and I'm not experienced with the deck at all. I think it would be best if a Solidarity player could attest to it.

[Solaran_X]

Worldgorger can lead into draws, which is why it will stay banned.
A lot of spells can lead into draws, with more regularity than WGD would in Legacy considering how narrow and hard-to-achieve the condition is for WGD to draw a game.

Hell...I drew game 2 of round 9 at GP: Indy with Price of Progress (after sitting down 8 minutes late for a game loss) and went on to win games 3 and 4. Should be thus ban PoP because it can draw games?

[Koby]

I enjoyed the discussion, but one section really struck me as forced. The aside on Griselbrand did not seem to be in the right location inside the article. It could have been a section onto itself, or put either at the beginning (likely turn off readers based on how much Grislbanned was written about this week) or at the end as the balancing point. Inside the section on One-card combo only served to distract the attention about the potential risk of such cards being unbanned, and only echoed what has already been talked about by the Magic population over the last week.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

I enjoyed the discussion, but one section really struck me as forced. The aside on Griselbrand did not seem to be in the right location inside the article. It could have been a section onto itself, or put either at the beginning (likely turn off readers based on how much Grislbanned was written about this week) or at the end as the balancing point. Inside the section on One-card combo only served to distract the attention about the potential risk of such cards being unbanned, and only echoed what has already been talked about by the Magic population over the last week.

Actually, the aside is in the section concerning enablers/cheap two-card instant win combos, to which any way to get Grisel into play is acutely similar. That's why I felt the discussion belonged there.
I can see how it would distract from the discussion of the actual cards still on the list and their unbanning, though, so the criticism is well taken.
By the way, thanks for criticizing the actual style/construction of the article instead of just the content, this kind of criticism is extremely helpful in becoming a better writer.
As for echoing what has already been talked about - I guess I agree with people for once that something should be banned. ^^

[Moondancerbb]

Interesting Article though i am a bit disappointed that you didn't talk about Library of Alexandria which i think is a good candidate for unbanning. Other then listing it there is no information in your article talking about it.

[Tammit67]

Solidarity has quite different mechanics than Spiral Tide and I'm not experienced with the deck at all. I think it would be best if a Solidarity player could attest to it.

It would be the push that decks needs to become viable again IMO. The decks biggest problem is having to go off with 4+ lands in play. Frantic pushes that to 3+ as a larger possibility. Snapcaster has been insane for me, and frantic + snapcaster sounds amazing

Well written as always!

[JDK]

A lot of spells can lead into draws, with more regularity than WGD would in Legacy considering how narrow and hard-to-achieve the condition is for WGD to draw a game.

Hell...I drew game 2 of round 9 at GP: Indy with Price of Progress (after sitting down 8 minutes late for a game loss) and went on to win games 3 and 4. Should be thus ban PoP because it can draw games?
I didn't think this could be misleading (my bad), but it's about HOW the Dragon forces a draw compared to things like PoP and Flame Rift.

Reducing players life points to zero is totally intended by the game design. An infinite loop isn't so much.

Now some of you might bring in the argument of Painter/Grindstone vs. Progenitus, but this loop is nowhere as easy to assemble as the Dragon-loop, because it requires your opponent to have a specific card (more than once) in their library at the moment you use the combo.

I wouldn't mind unbanning the card though, as there is enough graveyard hate to stop the combo from being abused to draw.

[Gheizen64]

Interesting Article though i am a bit disappointed that you didn't talk about Library of Alexandria which i think is a good candidate for unbanning. Other then listing it there is no information in your article talking about it.

Library is expensive as hell already as a 1-of for Vintage. Leave it be.

[Moondancerbb]

Library is expensive as hell already as a 1-of for Vintage. Leave it be.

Considering Imperial Recruiter isn't banned i don't think price should be something taken into consideration for weather or not a card is banned or unbanned.

I don't even think Library would be that powerful in the current meta with the already tight mana bases.

[emidln]

We do have Desolate Lighthouse as a bazaar effect for Dragon. I still doubt it would be good enough, but it's not like you actually need an X spell in hand, since Lighthouse just discards your deck then EWitness returns whatever you actually kill them with.

[Amon Amarth]

I think the "draws the game" situation is not going to actually be a big deal. WGD is a 3 card combo deck. When was the last time one of those was actually good, hell even playable, in Legacy? Never. Land Tax isn't going to break anything. If someone wants to play Parfait, let them. It's a White card that gets basic lands. Yawn. No one is going to time out because no one is going to play it. If it makes board control decks a little more playable, I'm all for it. Mind Twist is underwhelming.

My issue with Vise isn't that it's super-mega-awesome or annoying to play against (blind-flipping Delvers anyone?). It's that it restricts old-school, slow, control decks. I mean they already aren't a thing in Legacy anymore or MTG in general so it might be another nail in that coffin. Except that coffin has long been buried. Just something to consider.

Earthcraft doesn't scare me. I'm OK with making Elves or Enchantress slightly better.

I wonder what the best shell is for Balance. You mentioned Stax which is probably a good place to start. Balance seems hard to abuse in other decks because it's hard to break the symmetry without some setup. This isn't a card I've ever considered to unban so I'm not sure where I stand on it. It's a very interesting idea though.

Academy is interesting. How good is it in Storm decks like ANT?

Memory Jar is innocuous. Reforge the Soul is as good and sees no play. Jar's synergy with Welder isn't damning. 5 mana is a lot.

Desire is harder to ramp into than Ad Nauseum. Requires more setup than AdN. More likely to fail due to RNG than AdN as well.

FS always made me somewhat nervous for the same reasons you mentioned. I'm probably erring on keeping banned for the time being.

Goblin Recruiter. Super unban. Let us play aggro decks and Mountains again. Oh, yeah, sure it comes with a little bit of a combo finish. It's not 2005. Goblins hasn't been the best deck for years now. It was a fine ban when the format separated but it wouldn't be the outright best deck in the format today. I think. :P

[Moondancerbb]

The Problem i think with goblin recruiter isn't the power level its that you get to sit and wait for 15 minutes while your opponent resolves it. And at the end of the resolution of the spell the game still isnt over yet unlike say spiral tide or other combo decks.

[Koby]

Assuming we get to play with 4 Balance:

4 Balance
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
etc

Pretty much a Prison style Stax deck that dips heavily into non-creature Artifact mana. I would even consider playing Burning Wish to increase the density of Balance effects.

[wolfstorm]

@bilb_o: Did you also check Solidarity? That deck has already been getting a lot scarier with Snap and Snapcaster Mage. Seeing that your testing made it look fine in SpiralTide is a good start to an argument for it being an actual reasonable unban.


Eh.. It would be awesome in Solidarity but from testing it sure isn't game breaking - It just makes turn 3 combo's less risky and the combo phase itself more consistent which really isn't an issue now with snapcaster/snap.

[Amon Amarth]

The Problem i think with goblin recruiter isn't the power level its that you get to sit and wait for 15 minutes while your opponent resolves it. And at the end of the resolution of the spell the game still isnt over yet unlike say spiral tide or other combo decks.

I've played FCG and what you're saying doesn't happen. Resolving Recruiter doesn't take very long because the standard stack is pretty easy to set up.

[Moondancerbb]

I've played FCG and what you're saying doesn't happen. Resolving Recruiter doesn't take very long because the standard stack is pretty easy to set up.

I am not saying that someone who is good with FCG couldnt do it quickly its the fact that the combo takes a long time to go through before recruiter is even involved. Add in that you may need different stacks for different game states, Its a single card that will result in more draws i think then WorldGorger dragon.

[Antonius]

I'm for mind's desire being unbanned. As previously mentioned, it takes more setup than AdN, it's harder to ramp into and it loses to RNG more often.

That said, the long, drawn out masturbatory process of resolving Desire is infinitely more fun than Ad Nauseam. I'd be for its unban on those grounds alone.

[KevinTrudeau]

Interesting suggestion of Academy.

I am currently of the mind that Frantic Search is too good to unban, though I'm certainly not 100% on that and could definitely be proven wrong; to clarify, just as you alluded to earlier in this thread, it wouldn't affect Spiral Tide much (a deck where Meditate isn't that great either), as Spiral Tide has different goals and a different gameplan, but it would probably be way too potent in Solidarity.

[thefringthing]

Mind's Desire seems kind of gross in High Tide.

[Final Fortune]

If the scariest thing Frantic Search can do is make Solidarity playable, I don't think you really have that much to actually worry about. I'd be far more concerned with any applications Frantic Search has with Doomsday frankly.

I highly doubt that you can safely unban Goblin Recruiter after printing Cavern of Souls, I'd seriously unban Skullclamp before Goblin Recruiter because at least you'd be giving Affinity and Elves a card they can play with too.

Speaking of which, unban Skull Clamp please, aggro-combo is fun.

[honestabe]

Desire could never be unbanned. It only costs 1 more than Ad Naus, and is uncounterable, and can't kill you. A Desire for 4-5 is likely all it takes, and countering their mana so they can't cast it is a loosing battle. They WILL have more fast mana than you will counters, and then they'll thank you for upping the storm count while they desire your face off. Desire replacing ad naus also means the deck would get to play force of will as well. Legacy certainly doesn't need that monster.

[Gheizen64]

Desire could never be unbanned. It only costs 1 more than Ad Naus, and is uncounterable, and can't kill you. A Desire for 4-5 is likely all it takes, and countering their mana so they can't cast it is a loosing battle. They WILL have more fast mana than you will counters, and then they'll thank you for upping the storm count while they desire your face off. Desire replacing ad naus also means the deck would get to play force of will as well. Legacy certainly doesn't need that monster.

I felt like this, but i tested it, and i have two things to say:

- UU mean u can't cast desire off rituals. You NEED either a LED after a tutor or to play crap cards like the spheres
- It fizzle more often than AdN do. It is immune to permission, but storming for 4-5 isn't enough for you to win. And it's hard to storm for a lot when u have to play things like the spheres.

The card is nowhere as good as you assume. It's worse than Spiral in High tide combo too.

[joemauer]

Frantic Search + Past in Flames = Bad Ass Combo Deck

[evanmartyr]

Purely from a power-level perspective Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Earthcraft, Black Vise, Worldgorger Dragon, and Mind Twist can all be safely unbanned.

I think I'd be a bit leery of Memory Jar coming off the banned list, but then, I've played with Welders and seen it do terrible, terrible things. I'm not sure that's a legitimate strategy these days, though, so I wouldn't flip out if it did.

Mind's Desire is scary, and I don't want to see it again. It would probably be just fair, but my gut reaction is that it's degenerate.

Tolarian Academy I'm torn about. It absolutely should stay on the list if Mind's Desire comes off.

[majikal]

Purely from a power-level perspective Library of Alexandria [...] can all be safely unbanned.
You have obviously never played with or against that card.

[evanmartyr]

You have obviously never played with or against that card.

Obviously.

I'm all for control decks having the option of watering down their manabase so they can be better in control mirrors.

[JACO]

Related to the comments about the article, can anybody that has a problem with Tolarian Academy potentially being unbanned show me a ban-worth decklist for Legacy that would abuse Academy? I have tried but can't find one. I started writing an article about this last year and never finished it, but basically there currently isn't a mechanism to break Academy in Legacy (or at least it wouldn't be more overpowered than existing decks like Ad Nauseam, Reanimator, Hive Mind, etc.). If you have thoughts or ideas on breaking it please share here.

[majikal]

Related to the comments about the article, can anybody that has a problem with Tolarian Academy potentially being unbanned show me a ban-worth decklist for Legacy that would abuse Academy? I have tried but can't find one. I started writing an article about this last year and never finished it, but basically there currently isn't a mechanism to break Academy in Legacy (or at least it wouldn't be more overpowered than existing decks like Ad Nauseam, Reanimator, Hive Mind, etc.). If you have thoughts or ideas on breaking it please share here.
I mean, Academy MUD seems pretty scary.

[menace13]

I mean, Academy MUD seems pretty scary.

You could ramp into Tezz turn 1 or 2 with Affinity.

[Gheizen64]

You could ramp into Tezz turn 1 or 2 with Affinity.

T1 exactly how? Quadruple thopter and memnite + academy into Tezz? Lol. I can win T1 with way less cards, like Petal, Sol, SnT and Emrakul, or Petal/simian, Sol, Seething song, Sneak Attack into Emrakul.

Seriously, those are some bad examples. Academy would allow for 1 turn earlier Agent of Bolas, nothing that would break the deck anyway. I imagine something like this:

4x Ornithopter
4x Memnite
4x Etched Champion
4x Signal Pest
4x Vault Skirge
3x Frogmite
4x Master of Etherium
2x Stoneforge Mystic

4x Vault of Whispers
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Tolarian Academy
4x Ancient Den

4x Cranial Plating
3x Mox Opal
3x Springleaf Drum
1x Batterskull

4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

[j_rb]

Seriously, those are some bad examples. Academy would allow for 1 turn earlier Agent of Bolas, nothing that would break the deck anyway. I imagine something like this:

4x Ornithopter
4x Memnite
4x Etched Champion
4x Signal Pest
4x Vault Skirge
3x Frogmite
4x Master of Etherium
2x Stoneforge Mystic

4x Vault of Whispers
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Tolarian Academy
4x Ancient Den

4x Cranial Plating
3x Mox Opal
3x Springleaf Drum
1x Batterskull

4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas



That makes affinity actually look playable.
I also think FOW affinity could make a comeback with academy. Hardcasting forces off academy seems lawlzy.

And about WGD, the deck would be so terrible the only reason to play it would be to troll kids at tournaments and forcing draws becomes a lot more of a hoop to jump through in legacy. I can't even remember a time that I drew against dragon combo in 1.5 back in the day. There was always the win there and either a creature in my, or in the dragon players graveyard.

Most people forget WGD was banned because of its wonky interactions with animate dead and how confusing it was to most people, not because it drew games.

As always, good article. I completely agree with everything Carsten says in it.

[menace13]

T1 exactly how? Quadruple thopter and memnite + academy into Tezz? Lol. I can win T1 with way less cards, like Petal, Sol, SnT and Emrakul, or Petal/simian, Sol, Seething song, Sneak Attack into Emrakul.

Seriously, those are some bad examples. Academy would allow for 1 turn earlier Agent of Bolas, nothing that would break the deck anyway. I imagine something like this:


Any 3 0 cost artifacts one of which must be Mox Opal and Academy +Tezz.

Are you okay?

[Gheizen64]

Any 3 0 cost artifacts one of which must be Mox Opal and Academy +Tezz.

Are you okay?

I was assuming the Seeker not agent of Bolas. You still need a pretty improbable combination of cards, and affinity don't surely lack explosive draws already. In the case you mentioned, an ancient tomb would do the same thing only 1 turn later and wouldn't be as bad when you don't draw the nuts.

[boneclub24]

Interesting Article though i am a bit disappointed that you didn't talk about Library of Alexandria which i think is a good candidate for unbanning. Other then listing it there is no information in your article talking about it.

Turn 1 Library is nearly unbeatable.

[edgarps22]

Unless your opponent has turn 1 wasteland and that's not popular by any mean ...... oh wait. You do realize you have to keep a full hand to make Library work right? As well as the fact that Wasteland is a thing, that most of the format runs. Hell if you are on the draw and use it to draw turn 1, what are you drawing? Will it really help? How many times do you find yourself sitting at 7 cards in hand in Legacy honestly? We for the most part have moved away from traditional card draw, moving towards more efficient cantrips. Name a deck that is NOT Goblins or ANT that runs real card draw. Library is safe in my opinion, it is extremely conditional, answered by one of the most popular staples in the format, and only really works in decks that are not doing well at the moment. Heck if it meant the return of traditional control with real card draw, that would not be a bad thing in my opinion. Yes it is expensive, but who cares, it would be sub-optimal for most every deck outside of a handful, and would not likely be run as a 4 of. Price should not matter when banning or unbanning, read Candelabra, Illusionary Mask, and Imperial Recruiter.

[JDK]

As well as the fact that Wasteland is a thing, that most of the format runs.

What's with the half that doesn't?

[joemauer]

Yes it is expensive, but who cares, it would be sub-optimal for most every deck outside of a handful, and would not likely be run as a 4 of. Price should not matter when banning or unbanning, read Candelabra, Illusionary Mask, and Imperial Recruiter.

When Legacy was initially created, it was like a poor man's Vintage. Some cards were put/kept on the banned list because of price. It is outdated thinking though, but do we really want/need another $200++++ staple? If you are arguing it won't get played, then why waste the time to unban it? Nostalgia? Not really a throwback card like Land Tax is for most players. You don't have droves of players begging to have it unbanned.

I agree with the article that Library could be unbanned, but I believe it is a senseless act that wouldn't really benefit anyone.

[lavafrogg]

The only comment I want to make in this ban/unban discussion is directed to the people that are testing ban-list cards in current decklists. While the card might not be broken in a current list, it will most likely be broken when a deck is built around the card.

Memory jar cannot be unbanned. Storm combo would have a field day with it. See: belcher, tendrils. The deck will not be as elegant as ANT or DDFT but it will kill you much faster. The reason reforge the souls is not good right now is the mana requirement. Storm wants to play black and blue, not red.

Balance cannot be unbanned. Wrath+geddon+mind twist? It is a super pox that is splash able. It would make aunirid brush hopper really old again. The same with suspend creatures and zuran orb.

Mind twist: every deck would have to play brainstorm, SDT, and mind twist to exist. First resolved mind twist wins(x=3+).

Academy would power the coolest blue stax deck ever, the massive amounts of blue mana would power fact or fictions on turn two. Good luck.

Minds desire would be a blast to play in a revamped u/g list. Explores and early harvests would ensure cards can be minds desired for profit. See extended heartbeat lists. Also bonkers strong and too expensive for what it does. Should be unbanned.

Earthcraft: The combo is akin to painter/stone. Easily unbannable. Must plan small creatures(elves) have to attack, cards are near useless by themselves. Have to play basic lands.

That being said. Show and tell is clearly above the line that wizards has said is okay. Griselbrand is way strong and is the best reanimator target around. Keep him that way and everything is fine. Show and tell is a 3 mana two card I win that cannot be interacted with except on the stack, reanimate/entomb is 2 mana 2 card 8 life combo that now limits the demons ability to draw cards. It is also much easily hated through the graveyard. They say this is okay, and most people believe it is.

To add to the flames. Mental misstep, survival, earthcraft, land tax, frantic search, and mystical tutor should be unbanned. Show and tell should be banned. Combo, aggro-control, midrange, and control all get better. Everyone is happy. I feel the last three bannings had been bullshit, u/w stoneforge can now battle survival decks. GSZ lists will be better in some cases, worse in others. Aggro would have to get a boost so you could argue for skull clamp and everyone would shit there pants and be happy.

The coolest part is that these cards do not play well with eachother. Flame on.

[menace13]

I was assuming the Seeker not agent of Bolas. You still need a pretty improbable combination of cards, and affinity don't surely lack explosive draws already. In the case you mentioned, an ancient tomb would do the same thing only 1 turn later and wouldn't be as bad when you don't draw the nuts.
No, Agent of Bolas for his shooting for 16 life ability.
Improbable 5 card hand is about as probable as Petal/Sol/Sneak/Song/Emmy.

Tomb would do that same thing except Tolarian is better because the entire deck is artifacts meaning it will always tap for 2+ blue.

[lordofthepit]

Great article!

Also, I know it's going to be controversial, but maybe we can try taking Temporal Mastery off the banned list. :cool:

[kusumoto]

The only comment I want to make in this ban/unban discussion is directed to the people that are testing ban-list cards in current decklists. While the card might not be broken in a current list, it will most likely be broken when a deck is built around the card.

Memory jar cannot be unbanned. Storm combo would have a field day with it. See: belcher, tendrils. The deck will not be as elegant as ANT or DDFT but it will kill you much faster. The reason reforge the souls is not good right now is the mana requirement. Storm wants to play black and blue, not red.

Balance cannot be unbanned. Wrath+geddon+mind twist? It is a super pox that is splash able. It would make aunirid brush hopper really old again. The same with suspend creatures and zuran orb.

Mind twist: every deck would have to play brainstorm, SDT, and mind twist to exist. First resolved mind twist wins(x=3+).

Academy would power the coolest blue stax deck ever, the massive amounts of blue mana would power fact or fictions on turn two. Good luck.

Minds desire would be a blast to play in a revamped u/g list. Explores and early harvests would ensure cards can be minds desired for profit. See extended heartbeat lists. Also bonkers strong and too expensive for what it does. Should be unbanned.

Earthcraft: The combo is akin to painter/stone. Easily unbannable. Must plan small creatures(elves) have to attack, cards are near useless by themselves. Have to play basic lands.

That being said. Show and tell is clearly above the line that wizards has said is okay. Griselbrand is way strong and is the best reanimator target around. Keep him that way and everything is fine. Show and tell is a 3 mana two card I win that cannot be interacted with except on the stack, reanimate/entomb is 2 mana 2 card 8 life combo that now limits the demons ability to draw cards. It is also much easily hated through the graveyard. They say this is okay, and most people believe it is.

To add to the flames. Mental misstep, survival, earthcraft, land tax, frantic search, and mystical tutor should be unbanned. Show and tell should be banned. Combo, aggro-control, midrange, and control all get better. Everyone is happy. I feel the last three bannings had been bullshit, u/w stoneforge can now battle survival decks. GSZ lists will be better in some cases, worse in others. Aggro would have to get a boost so you could argue for skull clamp and everyone would shit there pants and be happy.

The coolest part is that these cards do not play well with eachother. Flame on.

You lost me at the whole thinking mind twist would do anything relevant part.

[Finn]

I find it interesting that Karsten did not mention the "unfun" factor of land Tax even though Aaron Forsythe specifically said that this is why the card was remaining banned the last time wotc publicly mentioned it.

Mind Twist is definitely not too good anymore. The line is firmly in place that anything you have to hard cast for 5 in Legacy had better win you the game. Mind Twist does not even guarantee that and unlike its competitors at that cost, it sucks turd when drawn late.

[Meekrab]

People at WotC have called Balance's effect "unfair at any cost" like Yawgmoth's Will, so don't wait up at night hoping for it to be unbanned.

I was amused, though, by the people in the comments section fearing that Enchantress would suddenly dominate tournaments with Land Tax and Earthcraft.