[Article] Cook’s Kitchen: Is White Just Bad Right Now?

[Bryant Cook]

Cook’s Kitchen: Is White Just Bad Right Now? (http://www.jupitergamesonline.com/2012/51315/cooks-kitchen-is-white-just-bad-right-now)

Friday's article. Sorry I was gone all weekend.

[Einherjer]

There are some points I'd like to hear your opinion on:

1) First you say White is bad and you're talking about Stonblade. I totally agree. On the other hand you mention the playset of Terminus which warrants a whole new deck-type called Miracle-Control or Terminator. You even say that this deck has some good MUs among the so called "4-combo-decks" you mention. Why do you say White is bad then when there is a valid option? Or were you just refering to Swords to Plowshares and Stoneforge Mystic? If yes I'd certainly agree with you.

2) I like Grixis, my TeamAmerica has been transforming into Grixis lately, as Tarmogoyf isn't really worth it at all. My list doesn't look too different but there's one choice you made I do not understand. Inquistion of Kozilek. Why would you choose it over Thoughtseize? Thoughtseize let us discard a Griselbrand/Emrakul vs SneakAttack, a creature vs Reanimator once we landed Cage/Crypt/Relic, a Jace and so many other things. I do not think that lifeloss is a big deal for this deck as we do not run Snuff Out as my old TeamAmerica used to. Could you give me your thoughts on this choice?

Thank you very much!
Greetings

[Bryant Cook]

There are some points I'd like to hear your opinion on:

1) First you say White is bad and you're talking about Stonblade. I totally agree. On the other hand you mention the playset of Terminus which warrants a whole new deck-type called Miracle-Control or Terminator. You even say that this deck has some good MUs among the so called "4-combo-decks" you mention. Why do you say White is bad then when there is a valid option? Or were you just refering to Swords to Plowshares and Stoneforge Mystic? If yes I'd certainly agree with you.

2) I like Grixis, my TeamAmerica has been transforming into Grixis lately, as Tarmogoyf isn't really worth it at all. My list doesn't look too different but there's one choice you made I do not understand. Inquistion of Kozilek. Why would you choose it over Thoughtseize? Thoughtseize let us discard a Griselbrand/Emrakul vs SneakAttack, a creature vs Reanimator once we landed Cage/Crypt/Relic, a Jace and so many other things. I do not think that lifeloss is a big deal for this deck as we do not run Snuff Out as my old TeamAmerica used to. Could you give me your thoughts on this choice?

Thank you very much!
Greetings

1.) Maverick and Stoneblade. I was suggesting that the decks move away from Stoneforge and Swords. I understand that it changes the Arch-type.

2.) Inquisitions could just as easily be Thoughtseizes. But the deck needs to be as well rounded as possible, Maverick is still a deck and the lifeloss does matter.

[CorpT]

So why did so many Blade decks do so well at the Invitational?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BCT1%5D=3&start_date=2012-06-17&end_date=2012-06-17&event_ID=21

And Maverick and Blade at the Open?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2012-06-17&end_date=2012-06-17&event_ID=20&city=Indianapolis

I saw the same type of comments coming from Drew Levin before the Invitational about how terrible SFM and company were and yet, it did well in both Invitational and Open. I played Esperblade in the Invitational and ended up 5-2-1 in Legacy.

In b4 split formats, etc... And 0 Grixis in either.

[Bryant Cook]

So why did so many Blade decks do so well at the Invitational?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BCT1%5D=3&start_date=2012-06-17&end_date=2012-06-17&event_ID=21

And Maverick and Blade at the Open?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2012-06-17&end_date=2012-06-17&event_ID=20&city=Indianapolis

I saw the same type of comments coming from Drew Levin before the Invitational about how terrible SFM and company were and yet, it did well in both Invitational and Open. I played Esperblade in the Invitational and ended up 5-2-1 in Legacy.

In b4 split formats, etc... And 0 Grixis in either.

If enough people play something it's bound to put up numbers. What I'm saying it's not exactly optimal. Not to mention most of those players dont play Legacy often and picked up decks that were good two months ago.

[CorpT]

Shaheen Soorani, Brian Braun-Duin and Michael Hetrick are not exactly slouches.

[Arsenal]

As Bryant stated in his article, Blade Control still has fantastic game versus every other non-combo deck in the format. If a large portion of the field is going to be decks that have creatures and require interaction, then Blade Control will continue to see play as it will be able to win those matches more often than not. Once they start facing off against Combo decks, things get dicier, but that's just a risk that the Blade Control player assumes by playing Blade Control.

Also, Esper Blade isn't great, but it isn't that bad against combo game 1 (discard + SCM + Force give it a glimmer of hope), and it can have a decent board in dealing with the combo decks for game 2 and game 3.

[Ignithas_]

As Bryant stated in his article, Blade Control still has fantastic game versus every other non-combo deck in the format. If a large portion of the field is going to be decks that have creatures and require interaction, then Blade Control will continue to see play as it will be able to win those matches more often than not. Once they start facing off against Combo decks, things get dicier, but that's just a risk that the Blade Control player assumes by playing Blade Control.

Also, Esper Blade isn't great, but it isn't that bad against combo game 1 (discard + SCM + Force give it a glimmer of hope), and it can have a decent board in dealing with the combo decks for game 2 and game 3.
UW Stoneblade is extremly bad positioned at the moment. Esper Stoneblade is decent at the moment, but not overwhelming. Maverick is pretty strong at the moment, but the rising of SneakShow and Terminus has hit it. I personally think it's good to be RUG or Dream Halls at the moment. Grixis, while strong, has a weaknes against Burn and Dredge (not good decks, but some of the most played). And Terminus can be prevented by Teeg and a protecting Mother.
The good thing with Dream Halls is that it doesn't get hit by the Sneak Attack hate.

[Arsenal]

In my mind, Esper Blade is the only Blade Control deck worth running, current meta considerations or not.

[DragoFireheart]

So why did so many Blade decks do so well at the Invitational?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BCT1%5D=3&start_date=2012-06-17&end_date=2012-06-17&event_ID=21

And Maverick and Blade at the Open?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2012-06-17&end_date=2012-06-17&event_ID=20&city=Indianapolis

I saw the same type of comments coming from Drew Levin before the Invitational about how terrible SFM and company were and yet, it did well in both Invitational and Open. I played Esperblade in the Invitational and ended up 5-2-1 in Legacy.

In b4 split formats, etc... And 0 Grixis in either.

1- Most of those Blade decks splashed black. Discard is good against combo.

2- Terminus is still good against the giant tentacle monster.

Those two points still doesn't change what Bryant said: white isn't that amazing in the mentioned cards. You would expect SFM and StP to be reasons to go white, but that isn't quite the case anymore.

[Julian23]

Neither Esperblade nor straight UW Blade are even close to "decent" against Combo. And we know why: no clock. SFM isn't a clock, it's much too slow. 4 Clique in the sideboard is the bare minimum it can do to stand the slightest of chances.

UW Miracle on the other hand does pretty well, mainly to Entreat the Angels and Counterbalance. The main reasons to play White are Terminus and Chant. Maverick is already declining so hard in Europe, even the best Maverick players have put it down 1 month ago.

[DragoFireheart]

Exactly. The reasons to go white are the new Miracle cards, not SFM and Stp. Terminus can still stop the tentacle monster unlike StP. EtA is a very good clock.

Counterbalance is just icing on the cake.

[CorpT]

1- Most of those Blade decks splashed black. Discard is good against combo.

Sure. So why does having to add B make Stoneblade bad? I kept hearing the same thing from Drew and it still turned out to be wrong. Like, someone got it in their head that because W was bad against combo, the whole deck was bad because it was playing W even though it could also play B and U.

I know it's one data point, but when I played against Reanimator in the Invitational, I won. Karakas and Discard + Surgical is good. Even without a fast clock, I was still able to beat Reanimator fairly handily.

What I'm saying is that saying Stoneblade is bad because it runs White doesn't make sense because it can also run Black. It would be like saying RUG is bad because G is bad against Combo. Sure, but you're also playing 2 other colors that are decent against Combo.


Neither Esperblade nor straight UW Blade are even close to "decent" against Combo. And we all no way: no clock. SFM isn't a clock, it's much to slow. 4 Clique in the sideboard is the bare minimum it can do to stand the slightest of chances.

So why are those decks doing well? Is every match just X vs Combo now?

All of this sounds like a lot of Theorycrafting and very little actual testing/experience.

[Julian23]

So why are those decks doing well? Is every match just X vs Combo now?

As already mentioned: because a lot of people still hold on to them. Numbers put up numbers.

[CorpT]

As already mentioned: because a lot of people still hold on to them. Numbers put up numbers.

There were 10 people playing Esperblade at the Invitational and 2 of the top 8ed. (I got 49th with a 4-4 Standard record and 5-2-1 Legacy record)

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/standard_and_legacy_metagame_b.html

UW didn't even make the list and still put 1 in top 8.

Next fallacy please.

[DragoFireheart]

[1]Sure. So why does having to add B make Stoneblade bad? I kept hearing the same thing from Drew and it still turned out to be wrong. Like, someone got it in their head that because W was bad against combo, the whole deck was bad because it was playing W even though it could also play B and U.

[2]I know it's one data point, but when I played against Reanimator in the Invitational, I won. Karakas and Discard + Surgical is good. Even without a fast clock, I was still able to beat Reanimator fairly handily.

[3]What I'm saying is that saying Stoneblade is bad because it runs White doesn't make sense because it can also run Black. It would be like saying RUG is bad because G is bad against Combo. Sure, but you're also playing 2 other colors that are decent against Combo.


1- I don't think anyone is saying that the entire deck is BAD against combo (it may well be, but that's besides the point), but there are now better choices. Miracle Control and RuG.

The white that is being used in Blade Control is bad and isn't helping it in the current meta. The reason that Blade Control splashes white makes it bad against combo.

2- And those cards you listed aren't white. White within the context of Blade Control is bad, which makes it worse against combo decks compared to other choices. Just because Blade Control CAN win doesn't mean you want to play that in the meta.

3- But why bother using white at all in Blade Control when a different third color would be a better choice? Hence Bryant suggesting a new deck in Grixs colors.

[DragoFireheart]

There were 10 people playing Esperblade at the Invitational and 2 of the top 8ed. (I got 49th with a 4-4 Standard record and 5-2-1 Legacy record)

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/standard_and_legacy_metagame_b.html

UW didn't even make the list and still put 1 in top 8.

Next fallacy please.

- I think this is more evidence that people are just adapting their pet deck to the meta. Doesn't mean that Blade Control is a good choice.

[CorpT]

1- I don't think anyone is saying that the entire deck is BAD against combo (it may well be, but that's besides the point), but there are now better choices. Miracle Control and RuG.

The white that is being used in Blade Control is bad and isn't helping it in the current meta. The reason that Blade Control splashes white makes it bad against combo.

But the entire meta is not combo. It's really not. There are a pretty good variety of decks being played by all sorts of people. I had very good players playing decks like Goblins against me.


2- And those cards you listed aren't white. White within the context of Blade Control is bad, which makes it worse against combo decks compared to other choices. Just because Blade Control CAN win doesn't mean you want to play that in the meta.


Karakas isn't white? Really?


3- But why bother using white at all in Blade Control when a different third color would be a better choice? Hence Bryant suggesting a new deck in Grixs colors.

The deck is split, sort of down the middle. Against the fair decks, white is amazing. Lingering Souls, Swords and SFM are there to win wars against fair decks. Against unfair decks, white is bad. But that's what Black and Blue are for. After sideboarding, you get to pick which direction you go. You can side out slow cards and discard for more removal against fair decks and removal out against unfair decks for more discard and disruption. Other colors can do similar things, but that doesn't mean that White is wrong to play.

Before the tournament I spent days trying to talk my testing partners out of EsperBlade because I was buying into the hype that it was terrible. Literal days spent arguing this. In the end, I was completely wrong. EsperBlade was a fine choice. It handled both fair and unfair decks fairly well.

[Julian23]

Good people will do well despite playing subpar decks. And I guess at least 30% of people at the Invidational knew what they were doing. No point in arguing, it seems. If you want to believe that Stoneblade is still a decent choice, go ahead. UW Control is way more adapted to the meta and a better choice. But I'm not trying to school you here. If you want to hold on to Stoneblade, fine with me.

[CorpT]

Good people will do well despite playing subpar decks. And I guess at least 30% of people at the Invidational knew what they were doing. No point in arguing, it seems. If you want to believe that Stoneblade is still a decent choice, go ahead. UW Control is way more adapted to the meta and a better choice. But I'm not trying to school you here. If you want to hold on to Stoneblade, fine with me.

Which is different than you wanting to believe that Stoneblade is a bad choice, how?

I really don't care what anyone plays and am not trying to argue for something. What I'm seeing is a tendency for people to dismiss decks out of hand for no good reason and then stick their head in the sand when confronted with evidence.

I don't know if Miracle Control is a better or worse choice than EsperBlade. But to say that EsperBlade is bad because it includes White and dismiss the fact that it also include Black is silly. Having White in the deck doesn't make the Black in the deck bad. That's the argument I'm seeing from both Drew Levin and Bryant. It's a very poor argument that I suspect is based more on theory than play testing.

It's also funny to see people saying that UW Miracle is a better choice than EsperBlade in a thread dedicated to showing how bad White is.

[DragoFireheart]

But the entire meta is not combo. It's really not. There are a pretty good variety of decks being played by all sorts of people. I had very good players playing decks like Goblins against me.

- Alright, but I think many of us will agree the meta is shifting towards more combo with the printing of Griselbrand.



Karakas isn't white? Really?

-It's a land. But I disgress. :tongue:




The deck is split, sort of down the middle. Against the fair decks, white is amazing. Lingering Souls, Swords and SFM are there to win wars against fair decks. Against unfair decks, white is bad. But that's what Black and Blue are for. After sideboarding, you get to pick which direction you go. You can side out slow cards and discard for more removal against fair decks and removal out against unfair decks for more discard and disruption. Other colors can do similar things, but that doesn't mean that White is wrong to play.

Before the tournament I spent days trying to talk my testing partners out of EsperBlade because I was buying into the hype that it was terrible. Literal days spent arguing this. In the end, I was completely wrong. EsperBlade was a fine choice. It handled both fair and unfair decks fairly well.

- The part I bolded was the point Bryant was trying to make.

Esperblade is not terrible. U/W Blade is probably terrible. Esperblade is more middle of the road. Which is fine in a mixed meta, but if the meta continues to be Griselbrand combo, I don't think it will cut it.

[Namida]

There were 10 people playing Esperblade at the Invitational and 2 of the top 8ed. (I got 49th with a 4-4 Standard record and 5-2-1 Legacy record)

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/standard_and_legacy_metagame_b.html

UW didn't even make the list and still put 1 in top 8.

Next fallacy please.

What is the format of the Invitational? I've heard it's Standard and Legacy. Is there a way to discern how well the players did in Legacy matches alone?

[CorpT]

- Alright, but I think many of us will agree the meta is shifting towards more combo with the printing of Griselbrand.

Esperblade is not terrible. U/W Blade is probably terrible. Esperblade is more middle of the road. Which is fine in a mixed meta, but if the meta continues to be Griselbrand combo, I don't think it will cut it.

I would have thought so too. In fact, that's exactly what I argued in the days leading up to it. And yet, I played all sorts of fair decks. I started Legacy at 3-1, so I wasn't playing chumps for the most part. In order, I played:

Merfolk (3-2)
Affinity (4-2)
Reanimator (5-2)
BW Stoneblade (6-2)

Then I managed to 1-3 Standard, so the competition might have been a little softer.
7-5

UR Delver Burn (8-5)
BUG Still (8-5-1) (Unintentional draw)
EsperBlade (9-5-1)
Goblins (9-6-1)


Total Legacy:
5-2-1

The Reanimator I played was Brad Nelson who managed to 0-4 Legacy with Reanimator.

Looking around the Legacy Open showed many fair and many unfair decks. I don't think the format has shifted to all combo all the time yet.


What is the format of the Invitational? I've heard it's Standard and Legacy. Is there a way to discern how well the players did in Legacy matches alone?

It was split. 4 rounds of Standard, 4 rounds of Legacy, 4 rounds of Standard, 4 rounds of Legacy. You could do a break down of the actual Legacy results, but it would be difficult.

[Ignithas_]

What I personally don't understand is why W (and SFM) should be bad because SneakShow and Reanimator got stronger and are played more often. W has so many tools to fight them: Karakas and Thalia are the universal cards. Phyrexian Revoker (not W, but strong in W decks) and E-Tutor from the SB. M@verick has posted a Aether Vial Maverick deck, that has increased MU chances against the two mentioned Combo decks. And Maverick without W is kind of pointless. DnT, a mono W list, has a very good MU against Reanimator and a good MU against SneakShow.

[Ziveeman]

I'm pretty sure the reason why Esperblade/Stoneblade was doing so well at the Invitational was because RUG Delver decks were cutting Spell Snare in favor of Stifle and Spell Pierce maindeck, which significantly increases the chance of a Stoneforge Mystic resolving. With all of the basics that Esperblade and UW Stoneblade run, it would be easier for them to hardcast the Batterskull or Jitte even if their Mystic gets countered.

I ran into that exact issue when I played Esperblade in Day 2 of the Invitational. I ran Pierces instead of Snare. All of the RUG Delver players I talked to also excluded Spell Snares from their list too because the metagame was shaping up to be Sneak Show, Reanimator, and Dredge. Spell Snare doesn't do anything in those matchups, at least nothing that Spell Pierce couldn't do either.

[I am the brainwasher]

Good people will do well despite playing subpar decks. And I guess at least 30% of people at the Invidational knew what they were doing. No point in arguing, it seems.

As much as I agree upon most what I've red from you so far, I am a bit confused how you can stand behind, in terms of pure logic, what you said in this thread.
When there are quite a few people out there who play those so called subpar decks at a single event, hasn't the actual meta then temporarily changed to something that doesn't fall under the rules for choosing decks that appear as a good choice?
It's a bit like wearing that normal decadent clothe when going to the Country Club, just to find yourself sorrounded by the majority of people wearing swimsuits. They felt like doing so or its the trend of the month, and they make yourself look like an idiot, even if you mainly did nothing wrong.
(New) Decks are often created as something to beat the known or popular decks of a given time, but this does not change the disposal or misinterpretation (even decisions based upon pure emotion) of players of the format.
This variance can fart in your dinner pretty harsh and I got shafted by that exact variance quite some time, also/especially in large(r) events.
It is true that the most players who decide to do so are bareley seen ater the 1st three rounds (which is a spur to get your byes), but no one is save from getting out-metad, blanked by innovators or gettting horrible pairings, and yes, good players of course have the ability to drive those mediocre decks to victory by skill.