Belcher Black

[Infinitium]

I'm sure many of those who're are reading this has pondered upon this at one point or the other so I'm just going to throw it out there: Why the fuck isn't mono-black Belcher getting played? Compared to the GR(b) versions it does lose some IMS's but in return it gets to run actual rituals instead of the 1/1 card/mana ratio GR has to deal with as well as maindecked card selection that tutors for the T1 kill itself (as well as acting as fast mana itself!). As Tall Men, Mox Opal and Serum Powder trivializes getting the chain started even the old truth that it lacks Zombie Spirit Guide is dated. Also, unlike most other combo decks it can directly benefit from the opponent casting S&T (which may or may not be relevant in a few hours time).

Seriously, why? It isn't FoW; that never stopped vanilla belcher and this requires less cards going off.

Anyhow, starting list. Basically I removed the draw 4's and cutesy bits from PSI and focused on abusing the shit out of Spoils instead (which coincidentally also acts as both win condition and mana acceleration for those haven't paid attention to it before). Even in its unpolished state the turn 1 Belcher (not necessarily win) rate is ridiculous (and unlike PSI is actually attainable from the start for anyone capable of counting two hands finger's worth of mana).


1 Bayou

4 Land Grant
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Ornithopter
4 Shield Sphere
2 Phyrexian Walker

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Spoils of the Vault
2 Infernal Tutor

4 Serum Powder
3 Cabal Therapy

The Cabal Therapies are pretty much Mox fodder and could probably be offcolor IMS instead, but have synergy with the Tallmen and makes for a tempting SB option in Gitaxian Probe. Other obvious SB candidates are Leyline of the Void (because of the Serum Powders), Deathmark (because of teeg) and Massacre (because of everything else hatebear).

Helm of Obedience is also strangely compelling but probably jank as. Tendrils will have problems chaining enough spells without IGG/Draw. AdN could work to increase threat density, but that would mean cutting Serum Powder which would make mulliganing into a start problematic.

Why?

[Koby]

Because this deck isn't Black Belcher.

It's Spanish Inquisition without Draw 4s.

[evanmartyr]

I wrote this big long thing but this is a better way to put it:

You're going for consistency over turns when Belcher wants to win asap. Finding a better build of Belcher means one of three things.

1) It wins turn 1 more consistently.
2) If the game goes past turn 1, it has a better gameplan than draw-go or falls behind a lot slower than GR Belcher tends to.
3) It can play disruption or protection without sacrificing turn 1 win consistency, or depth beyond turn 1, or both.

So you're looking for a better option number 2, but all you've added are ways to blow through your life, 10+ "dead" cards (tallmen with no therapy, mox with no tallmen, multiple moxes, etc), and three Cabal Therapies.


AdN could work to increase threat density, but that would mean cutting Serum Powder which would make mulliganing into a start problematic.

If you can't mulligan into a start without Serum Powder, adding Serum Powder isn't going to fix your problems.


Seriously, why? It isn't FoW; that never stopped vanilla belcher and this requires less cards going off.

Force of Will is a catch 22 for control players against RG belcher. Either they Force your initial mana sources and risk those being bait, or they wait and try to Force Empty the Warrens, which is just hilarious. This deck ONLY wins with Belcher, which means Force is a very real concern for it.

You're more vulnerable to countermagic, you're more likely to have false starts, even counting Tutors as Win Cons straight up you're still below the standard 11, and, like you said, you feel the need to play Serum Powder. Eugh.

Suggestions to look into: Ill-Gotten Gains. You're playing enough tutors and you have, theoretically, Cabal Therapies to gut any permission returned to your opponents' hands that you can take advantage of it pretty well. This would likely let you run Tendrils as a win con, which lets you up your threats.

Run better filler: I understand that a lot of your cards revolve around tallmen, but Street Wraith and Gitaxian Probe are both very, very good. Worse, admittedly, with Spoils, but still not awful.

Ad Nauseum: is risky, but you're usually not casting Spoils looking for AN, then ANing into a dozen cards and trying to end at one life. You usually Spoils for a win condition or a specific missing piece of acceleration, then win, or you AN for a bunch of cards that include those things, and win. You don't have to do both. 1-2 would be 1-2 quite good extra win conditions.

[ESG]

There was a similar list at SCG Indy on Sunday. It didn't perform well, but it's interesting. He basically swapped the D4s from Spanish Inquisition for Ad Nauseams.

Jon Johnson

4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou

Sideboard:
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Nature's Claim
2 Deathmark
4 Duress
1 Tendrils of Agony

[Infinitium]

Because this deck isn't Black Belcher.

It's Spanish Inquisition without Draw 4s.

So your claim is that the above deck =[SI sans D4's] and this !=[Belcher]?

Please elaborate.


If you can't mulligan into a start without Serum Powder, adding Serum Powder isn't going to fix your problems.

The deck needs one initial mana source (out of 17) and one win condition (out of 10) to have what I would consider a keepable hand. Since I already run the maximum amount of oncolor IMS (apart from adding more lands) and 10 win conditions is acceptable for reasons I'll get into later the best way to facilitate this is by adding SP.

Or are you claiming that Serum Powder makes it harder to mulligan aggressively into a specific subsets of cards? If so, I'd love to hear your reasoning.


Force of Will is a catch 22 for control players against RG belcher. Either they Force your initial mana sources and risk those being bait, or they wait and try to Force Empty the Warrens, which is just hilarious. This deck ONLY wins with Belcher, which means Force is a very real concern for it.

Or they Force the Burning Wish. Or the first ritual that would put them at 4+ mana/first ritual if cast off LP/xSG what with those being considered the better plays and all. RG running exactly 3 cards maindecked that might prove a problem doesn't exactly push the matchup into the positives - especially as EtW is lackluster past turn 1, at lower stormcounts and notoriously easy to hate out postside.


You're more vulnerable to countermagic, you're more likely to have false starts, even counting Tutors as Win Cons straight up you're still below the standard 11, and, like you said, you feel the need to play Serum Powder. Eugh.

11 isn't a magic number, it's the amount of cards you run when you want the maximum % of seeing exactly one of them in the starter. This is an easy decision in RG Belcher since not only does the deck rely on the other 5-6 cards being nothing but mana (since the cards/mana ration is closer to 1), it's the maximum amount of viable win conditions available to the deck period (unless you want to run Fatties and/or Goblin Tinkerer). That said, there have been succesful lists running 12x deck thinners and only 8 win conditions maindecked (4x EtW).

In this deck it gets more complicated as the tutors can also act as mana sources, IT is pants in multiples unless you can get rid of the extra through LED and it also runs 4x Serum Powder which skewers the math somewhat. So whilst I don't know whether 10 is the optimal number or not I'm assuming as much until (empirical) testing proves me otherwise.

@ESG: Thanks for the list.

EDIT: Oh yeah, goldfished up 60 games with the list from the OP, assuming being on the play. 20+ Damage from a Belcher activation was considered a win, having Belcher in play without activating it or activating it for less than 20 is simply annotated Belcher in play (regardless of the amount of permanent mana sources in play with it). I was playing at maximizing my turn 1 Belcher in play %, so mulliganed very aggressivevily and only kept hands that would either do this or would only need one piece of any acceleration (or tallman for Mox) to put Belcher into play T2. Every game where Belcher wasn't put into play on T2, where i mulliganed to less than 4 or I dealt more than 20 damage to myself was considered a loss.

T1 wins: 11/60
T1 Belcher: 26/60
T2 wins: 1/60
T2 Belcher: 5/60
Losses: 17/60 (including two instances where I dealt lethal damage to myself)

Most but not all T1 Belcher games could be considered T2/3 actual wins, and I did mulligan a fair amount of hands I'd keep in a real game (ones containing multiple castings of Cabal Therapy for an instance). Also keep in mind I've been playing this deck since yesterday.

[leegoo]

The Decks name is SAINT by the way.

[Koby]

So your claim is that the above deck =[SI sans D4's] and this !=[Belcher]?

Please elaborate.


This deck has already been discussed in the SI thread. There are many working copies of SI utilizing different engines, color combinations, speed, consistency, and win-cons. This is one of the variations proposed. I would defer to Vacrix for more careful examination of the archetype.

This thread is basically redundant with the SI thread.

[Vacrix]

The Decks name is SAINT by the way.
Truth.

Emidln originally came up with this deck on the Stormboards. Honestly, I play tested it a bunch to try to find a list that I liked and I couldn't find a list that I liked more than PSI so I just dropped testing on it. There's not a deck in Legacy that can be as abusive as PSI with post-board Carpet of Flowers. SAINT simply doesn't have enough of a business density to truly abuse it with a grind game so though it might have more protection, it doesn't play as effective of a post-board game as PSI.

[emidln]

I recently tried to play SAINT w ESG+Summoner's Pact. It's not actually, the worst. Your average CMC goes up slightly, but not enough that casting Ad Nauseam isn't awesome. As a side effect, you can reasonably cast something like Past in Flames if you want it due to Summoner's Pact shenanigans and you free up space. Having 4 extra ESG instead of Mox Opal actually helps the grind game better ability to cast Carpet of Flowers. You end up with some free slots due to not having Therapy or DI anymore, and you can solve those in a number of ways. My favorite thus far has been with a set of Tinder Wall. Tinder Wall plays well with the Past in Flames->Tendrils backup plan and is okay as an accelerant that is reasonable to cast.

I'd still probably rock Griselbrand myself, but either form of the deck is as reasonable as Belcher would be in any given metagame, possibly a bit more reasonable as each has significantly better backup plans.

[evanmartyr]

Or are you claiming that Serum Powder makes it harder to mulligan aggressively into a specific subsets of cards? If so, I'd love to hear your reasoning.

I'm claiming that running cards that let you mulligan better forces you to mulligan more. If you have a reasonable hand that includes a Serum Powder, it can easily be considered a mulligan, since Serum Powder is fairly dead. My main concern with the decklist, which I should have explained more succinctly, is that at the hope of going mono-black, you're ditching a lot of little aspects of Belcher that make it work, like the Spirit Guides, and if you really need an initial mana source and it *has* to be black, I'd find more of those rather than diluting the deck with Serum Powder.




Or they Force the Burning Wish. Or the first ritual that would put them at 4+ mana/first ritual if cast off LP/xSG what with those being considered the better plays and all. RG running exactly 3 cards maindecked that might prove a problem doesn't exactly push the matchup into the positives - especially as EtW is lackluster past turn 1, at lower stormcounts and notoriously easy to hate out postside.

Good point.




11 isn't a magic number, it's the amount of cards you run when you want the maximum % of seeing exactly one of them in the starter. This is an easy decision in RG Belcher since not only does the deck rely on the other 5-6 cards being nothing but mana (since the cards/mana ration is closer to 1), it's the maximum amount of viable win conditions available to the deck period (unless you want to run Fatties and/or Goblin Tinkerer). That said, there have been succesful lists running 12x deck thinners and only 8 win conditions maindecked (4x EtW).

Well, currently most RG Belcher decks run 11 win conditions, that's true. But in the past there were tons of Belcher variants that ran a Bayou and some black spells, even Spoils of the Vault. Define "successful" =/


In this deck it gets more complicated as the tutors can also act as mana sources, IT is pants in multiples unless you can get rid of the extra through LED and it also runs 4x Serum Powder which skewers the math somewhat. So whilst I don't know whether 10 is the optimal number or not I'm assuming as much until (empirical) testing proves me otherwise.

It's hard to count Tutors as mana sources AND as win conditions because if you have a Tutor in hand they act as one or the other, not both. I understand that there's a lot of flexibility gained in trimming down category A and category B, and using tutors to make up the difference (probably a lot of consistency as well) but if you're doing that while also adding 4x Serum Powder, 10x 0cc creatures, etc, I'm not seeing a lot of gain.


EDIT: Oh yeah, goldfished up 60 games with the list from the OP, assuming being on the play. 20+ Damage from a Belcher activation was considered a win, having Belcher in play without activating it or activating it for less than 20 is simply annotated Belcher in play (regardless of the amount of permanent mana sources in play with it). I was playing at maximizing my turn 1 Belcher in play %, so mulliganed very aggressivevily and only kept hands that would either do this or would only need one piece of any acceleration (or tallman for Mox) to put Belcher into play T2. Every game where Belcher wasn't put into play on T2, where i mulliganed to less than 4 or I dealt more than 20 damage to myself was considered a loss.

T1 wins: 11/60
T1 Belcher: 26/60
T2 wins: 1/60
T2 Belcher: 5/60
Losses: 17/60 (including two instances where I dealt lethal damage to myself)

Most but not all T1 Belcher games could be considered T2/3 actual wins, and I did mulligan a fair amount of hands I'd keep in a real game (ones containing multiple castings of Cabal Therapy for an instance). Also keep in mind I've been playing this deck since yesterday.

Those are fairly impressive numbers, I have to admit, but I would imagine that when you introduce opponents into the equation the numbers look a lot worse (as they do with nearly every combo deck). Any IRL testing results you'd care to share?

[Vacrix]

I tried playing SAINT with Summoner's Pact as well to a good effect. Granted that was before the advent of PiF. I also didn't find Pact/ESG package to be that inhibiting with Ad Nauseam.

Tinderwall seems good. I'd imagine you could keep your Tinderwalls in as well and play a playset of EtW that way you don't have to play around bears in G2/G3 of non-blue decks.




If anyone was curious:

SAINT vs. PSI
The main difference between SAINT and PSI mainly boils down to the business. SAINT opts to run 4 Ad Nauseam over the D4 engine because SAINT prefers consistency from its engine. However, it comes at a cost of 3BB vs. BBB each. This means SAINT has a more all-in approach, much like Classic Belcher, while PSI retains the ability to invest a few as 3 cards into a combo attempt. Diluting your draw engine from AdN to a D4 engine means your spell chains will be longer and more complex, but it also means PSI runs more business and can therefore take greater advantage of Carpet of Flowers in the grind game against control. D4's don't ask much from your perpetual resources. Against control your ideal situation, if you can't just go off and win, is to get to BBB perpetual mana and then you can just topdeck business spells and cast them for free. SAINT naturally has trouble grinding as effectively even if it topdecks enough business to grind because its business spells cost significantly more. Also, PSI, can comfortably go off from 8 life and play 3 D4's, draw 12 cards. Ad Nauseam from 8 life is anywhere from difficult to impossible, especially given that SAINT has a high CC count. Also, PSI still mulligans better than any other deck in the format, including SAINT.

SAINT vs. Classic Belcher
SAINT has access to better tutors and a draw engine that allows the pilot to win the game on the spot instead of making Goblin tokens. Belcher has a nasty habit of playing 7/11 win conditions as Empty the Warrens, either played naturally or pulled from the wishboard. This means you aren't winning on turn 1 and perhaps not even until turn 3 if you could make 10 tokens. That means the opponent has a good chance of stabilizing with various answers to tokens on turn 2-3. SAINT can play EtW post-board in the matchups where its appropriate but it doesn't have to play it as its primary win condition. Also, SAINT has a much better post-board plan than Belcher because its sideboard is not wasted on a Wishboard.

[Infinitium]

How does that work out with manafixing? I've tried GRb belcher variants but trying to chain rituals is a bitch when you can't play one off the other. Granted this isn't really a problem with cards such as Carpets but still. I also tried AdN briefly but since the average cmc is above 1 and I needed to hit either Belcher/Spoils it tended to hurt a lot. Mind to share your list?

EDIT: Oh yeah and since I'm home from work and need unwinding I godfished another 40 on MWS for easy percentage calculations (with P=high but anyway).

T1 Kill ~ 19%
T1 Belcher in play ~ 42%
T2 Kill ~ 3%
T2 Belcher in play ~ 9%
Fizzle ~ 23%
Suicide by Spoils ~ 4%

Again, this was mulliganing aggressively so basically the T2 percentages are me topdecking business after being forced to keep bad-ish hands. With more careful play I'd still say the opponent have to be able to play an answer on their turn 1 on the draw or lose about 70% of the time, but with the T1 Belcher category includes anything from Belcher + 3 mana sources in play to only Belcher in play and me at barely positive life this is hard to assess. There are also the games where I could keep a hand including permanent mana sources, Tall Men and Therapies yet didn't. Overall I'd say it's about as fast as ordinary Belcher but doesn't have to rely on EtW. How fast is PSI atm?

[Vacrix]

Well if you want to run green cards like Carpet of Flowers and Autumn's Veil in the post-board, ESG is usually your primary enabler. Lotus Petals are also pretty good since once Carpet comes down its going to be your IMS unless they Daze, don't crack fetches, or sandbag you on Islands.

Empty the Warrens, at least in Emidln's build with 4 Tinderwall gives you +4 red sources in addition to Lotus Petal and Carpet of Flowers (and occasionally Chrome Mox), and LED if you are finding EtW off IT. Naturally cast, I've found EtW to be much easier to work with if you play a post-board Taiga. It also enables Past in Flames. Also, in terms of Belcher activations, Taiga doesn't inhibit your Belcher activations as much because its a mountain. Especially with AdN as a primary business spell in SAINT, once you are drawing a bunch of cards, you are likely to hit a Land Grant to find the last land, or you can even play IT + LED to find the last land before you Belch if you have enough mana. That line of play shouldn't be too difficult given that SAINT often has a profuse amount of mana post-AdN unless its going off from a lower life total or if you hit too many high cc cards early on. Cabal Ritual is going to net you 3 post-AdN if you make sure to hit thresh first, and then there is Culling the Weak and LED.

In terms of RGb Belcher variants, I've tried playing Classic Belcher with stuff like Spoils of the Vault and/or Dark Ritual and you definitely have a harder time getting the black source sometimes. 4 Manamorphose, 4 Lotus Petal (occasionally 4 Chrome Mox) (I've even tried playing a Bayou to turn Land Grant into a black source), sometimes isn't enough because Classic Belcher lacks a draw engine so you can't just stumble into the right cards with D4's or AdN like you can in other glass house variants. You're pretty much a slave to your opening hand, so stuff like Dark Ritual and Spoils naturally becomes less reliable.

EDIT:
Also, I think that SAINT might want to play a singleton Burning Wish that way you don't lose to turn 1 Pithing Needle or Revoker on Belcher, as well as Leylines, and such. Post-AdN you can IT --> BW --> Tendrils from the board.. or the EtW's in the post-board (at least I play 4 in my version of SAINT so EtW is already there).