[Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

[nedleeds]

Crosis colored Dak Fayden control.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Crosis colored Dak Fayden control.

Haha this hurts my brain. I have a B/W Stax brew I've been working on - I can PM you the list if you like as I'd rather not clutter up this thread more.

[Weapon X]

The streaming plan seems to have fallen through. Our guy with the camera, stands, etc moved so its on the back burner most likely until his jobs term is up an he moves back.

As for chains I found 2 to be plenty when I had my black splash.

[(nameless one)]

I know it costs 4 mana but Uba Mask kinda does what Chains do. It's still devastating against Brainstorm and Jace. I never really had an issue reaching 4 mana with this deck without slowing Land Tax down.

[nedleeds]

I love Uba Mask in MUD but Miracles are too good with Scroll Rack to lock yourself out of them IMHO. I can't think of that many compelling reasons to splash black over red (or the obvious best option blue). I guess some point discard, or asymmetrical beatings like The Abyss, Toxic Deluge, Gerrards Verdict (hey they are probably sandbagging lands ...).

[Weapon X]

I maintain, let miracles play miracles. We basically have the best shell for rip/helm.

[nedleeds]

I think nobody is saying this deck will ever be as good as U/w miracles ... but if you are playing Tax / Rack and Top and not playing Terminus you are just being obtuse. It's a one mana uber wrath. Finishing the game with RiP / Helm has nothing to do with the decision to play spells with the Miracle mechanic -- I'm not sure why you'd even bring it up, it makes you sound like you've never activated Scroll Rack.

[(nameless one)]

I agree with the Miracle aspect.

My old version ran Terminus but not Entreat. Being able to wipe the board and still get Land Tax going was sweet. Though Uba Mask seems so great in shutting down a lot of decks that are good against this deck that I can see Terminus being bypassed. If I can run Humility in my old build, then why not Wrath?

Also for builds with splashes, instead of Dual, why not Gemstone Mine? It's a rainbow land that eventually dies (get Land Tax going).

[Admiral_Arzar]

Also for builds with splashes, instead of Dual, why not Gemstone Mine? It's a rainbow land that eventually dies (get Land Tax going).

Could Undiscovered Paradise be a thing? It never really dies per se but it definitely triggers Land Tax. That land seems pretty awful in every deck except maybe this one lol.

[Weapon X]

In a deck that can actually cast wrath before turn 4 I see no reason to waste time setting up miracles. To me that negates the effectiveness of the engine. If I'm concerned about the top cards of my library then top does it better. Parfait doesn't need top. If anything calling terminus a wrath is the mistake. It clears the board that's for sure. But it doesn't destroy them. There are decks out there that don't care about terminus but do about wrath, elves being the most prevalent.

Land wise it should depend on build. I run 2 plateaus and a mountain because of the belcher interaction and blasts in the board. Undiscovered paradise is tempting, but is it even necessary? To me the biggest draw to a deck like parfait is the reliance on basics thus negating the most common form of attack in the environment, wasteland.

[nedleeds]

In a deck that can actually cast wrath before turn 4 I see no reason to waste time setting up miracles. To me that negates the effectiveness of the engine. If I'm concerned about the top cards of my library then top does it better. Parfait doesn't need top. If anything calling terminus a wrath is the mistake. It clears the board that's for sure. But it doesn't destroy them. There are decks out there that don't care about terminus but do about wrath, elves being the most prevalent.

Land wise it should depend on build. I run 2 plateaus and a mountain because of the belcher interaction and blasts in the board. Undiscovered paradise is tempting, but is it even necessary? To me the biggest draw to a deck like parfait is the reliance on basics thus negating the most common form of attack in the environment, wasteland.

I don't think we're on the same page at all. Casting actual Wrath of God at Sorcery speed for Mox Diamond + 3 plains seems much worse than W super wrath that can tuck indestructibles and man lands at instant speed. By lowering the mana requirement of your spells it allows to you lower your land requirements and keep tax online longer. I don' tunderstand why you aren't relying on spot removal in the early turns.... why turbo wrath? Swords to plowshares exists. I think I'm taking this in a different direction, agree to disagree.

[Meekrab]

Just grabbed a nm legends playset for 70$
I feel compelled to point out there's a playset of Legends Land Tax on ebay right now for $71.92 with free shipping, so waiting three years to buy in didn't actually cost anyone anything.

[Weapon X]

It actually sounds like the difference is that you need turns to win with entreat where as when I hit my cards I'm basically winning on the spot. Parfait to me is a prison deck. I take advantage of that by forcing other decks to play how I want them to and combo kill with main deck hate.

Also I think you are reading in to much. Path, wrath, O ring, humility, etc... There is no turbo wrath game. Wrath does however permanently deal with threats rather then having to deal with them later. The format is based on efficient spells and I choose to make my opponents spells inefficient. Trinisphere beats decks on its own. Miracle for 3 may as well still be a wrath.

[Weapon X]

Well it's been quite some time but I'm back to my parfait game. I never expected to miss out on top 4 because I played a mountain on turn 5 and needed it in my deck turn 26.

That said the deck is just as strong as it had ever been. I'm returned to a baneslayer in my board over batterskull and have also worked in a councils judgement. There is little wiggle room now to the list. Baneslayer vs batterskull is the kind of wiggle room as an example. There was that run of people being in arms over treasure cruise and with no changes preyed on those decks. That said my chants have been working overtime. I think it may be right to try to work in some number of silence/abeyance into the 75.

Is anyone still running my original list?

[Ancestral]

Well it's been quite some time but I'm back to my parfait game. I never expected to miss out on top 4 because I played a mountain on turn 5 and needed it in my deck turn 26.

That said the deck is just as strong as it had ever been. I'm returned to a baneslayer in my board over batterskull and have also worked in a councils judgement. There is little wiggle room now to the list. Baneslayer vs batterskull is the kind of wiggle room as an example. There was that run of people being in arms over treasure cruise and with no changes preyed on those decks. That said my chants have been working overtime. I think it may be right to try to work in some number of silence/abeyance into the 75.

Is anyone still running my original list?

whats your list right now? never play the deck in a tournamnet but i m curious to try

[Weapon X]

4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
2 Wrath Of God
1 day of judgement
4 Orim’s Chant
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Zuran Orb
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere
1 Ivory Tower
1 Pithing Needle
3 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal

2 Rest In Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Goblin Charbelcher

2 Plateau
1 Mountain
15 Plains

Sideboard
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 baneslayer angel
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 aura of silence
1 Leyline of the Void
1 council's judgement
2 Ethersworn Cannonist

That should be my current BDI parfait list.

[Ancestral]

4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
2 Wrath Of God
1 day of judgement
4 Orim’s Chant
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Zuran Orb
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere
1 Ivory Tower
1 Pithing Needle
3 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal

2 Rest In Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Goblin Charbelcher

2 Plateau
1 Mountain
15 Plains

Sideboard
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 baneslayer angel
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 aura of silence
1 Leyline of the Void
1 council's judgement
2 Ethersworn Cannonist

That should be my current BDI parfait list.
thank you, seems interesting

[Raystar]

4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
2 Wrath Of God
1 day of judgement
4 Orim’s Chant
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Zuran Orb
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere
1 Ivory Tower
1 Pithing Needle
3 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal

2 Rest In Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Goblin Charbelcher

2 Plateau
1 Mountain
15 Plains

Sideboard
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 baneslayer angel
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 aura of silence
1 Leyline of the Void
1 council's judgement
2 Ethersworn Cannonist

That should be my current BDI parfait list.

Nice deck :)

There is only one thing that I don't seem to be able to grasp: why the Leyline of the Void in SB? shouldn't you use a third RiP? How do you plan to cast it if it's not in your hand at the beginning (moxes?)?

[keys]

What application does Orim's Chant have outside of the Storm matchup? Is it just a pseudo Time Walk against fair decks?

[Mystical_Jackass]

What do you think about running Terminus? I'd imagine with Scroll Rack you could just stack it whenever you'd like, like even if you drew it for a turn and didn't need it just save it and use it when necessary. Can't do that with WoG.

[nedleeds]

So a few posts above for the Terminus argument. I have no idea why you wouldn't max out on Racks, Tops, Taxes and {W} hyper wraths. Those 3 cards are the engine. The miracle mechanic is one of the most busted things to come down the pipe ever. Any try at tax/rack without leveraging miracles is starting off on the wrong foot.

[Chatto]

So a few posts above for the Terminus argument. I have no idea why you wouldn't max out on Racks, Tops, Taxes and {W} hyper wraths. Those 3 cards are the engine. The miracle mechanic is one of the most busted things to come down the pipe ever. Any try at tax/rack without leveraging miracles is starting off on the wrong foot.

Nothing really contributing, but just something I would like to share: I promised my GF to take it slow with new decks, but your post gave me something to think about: a new deck to play :smile:

[Weapon X]

Ok I have some catching up to do here.

Leyline of the void. It's there because I'm trying to combo out to win with rip/helm. Inevitably people rely on abrupt decay to stop you. Conveniently leyline costs 4. Bonus being it can randomly start in play. Minus being that it is only castable off of moxen, but I have cast it. That is also the benefit of being a singleton, it doesn't hinder the deck as you would still rather cast rip and have them be dealt with before you are in a situation where you need to cast leyline.

Orim's chant. MVP all the time. It does so much and is very underrated. Stopping storm mid combo is a classic move with it. I also enjoy letting elves do its thing and inform them that they can now not attack. I feel the strength is against control. Chant into win game is great. Even just chanting a player can sometimes force a reaction which is beneficial. In that light you can consider it a show and tell where you have nothing to put into play if that makes it clearer. Mainly it will be used to timewalk an opponent on one of the first few turns simply to get to a point where a superior piece of disruption can take over. I find the key thing with the deck as a whole is pacing the game. Chant lets you set the pace you need.

Terminus. I think I mentioned it somewhere before, but I prefer terminus with top and I would rather deal with cards once. If I am juggling a terminus on top with a rack I only have a draw step to miracle it. As well, if I am juggling it I'm negating my entire engine since I cannot tax/rack effectively. Plus sometimes you need to cast a spell and wrath is simply easier to cast without trying to be fancy. Don't get me wrong, miracles are strong, but they are strong in miracles using top, jace, etc as their engine where you have access to drawing cards on an opponents turn.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I haven't owned a scroll rack (sadly), but assuming you have a Terminus in your hand with Land Tax/Rack in play and it's like turn 4, would you be able to trigger Land Tax during your upkeep, E. Tutor for a RiP, Rack throwing back lands and Terminus stacking on top, then miracles Terminus and play RiP your Main? I see what you're saying though, it's not as effective to do without Top. It's tough not to think about though, being so incredibly cheap to play it almost seemed like a godsend for this deck ^_^ But again I have zero experience using, I trust your judgement.

[Weapon X]

You sure could do that. But I think even your explain that situation shows how impractical it is.

[nedleeds]

Nothing really contributing, but just something I would like to share: I promised my GF to take it slow with new decks, but your post gave me something to think about: a new deck to play :smile:

I wrote a primer on my team boards for W/r Rack/Tax/Top but I'm unsure it's suitable to post here. It's not going to win anything of consequence with the B&R list as is, but's a fun contraption to operate.

[Weapon X]

I wrote a primer with nameless one on mtgsally, however the deck can do well. My experience with it says it is very much a contender. In fact as new cards seem to arise I find the deck only gets stronger. Eventually I'll be able to make a big event and show the world.

[(nameless one)]

I just realized I never finished the OP. Shit.

It's been almost three years since Land Tax got unbanned. I still hope that one day the deck will be at least competitive. I've only had a short stint of success with the deck. With the highest point winning one of the MTGSalvation Opens with it. I don't really have time to get it tuned up, especially with all the new cards. Maybe WeaponX someday and I hope will top8 a big open or a GP with a list.

Until then, keep making Parfait

[Weapon X]

Passport first. The parfait world domination to follow.

Time off work dependant.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Okay, just remembered the other good idea I had.

Horizon Canopy

I'm almost a bit surprised I haven't seen it brought up before, I noticed some other lists running Ghost Quarter but the Canopy seems great for A) Land Tax enabler and B) EoT draw under E.Tutor
And the life loss pretty much shouldn't mean anything for a deck like this. Thoughts?

[Weapon X]

I already know my response is going to differ from others but I'll touch on it again.

Land tax finds basic lands. The result of this is that basic lands should be the focus. Non basics detract from the plan and should be generally avoided. Why do I want to turn on an opponents wastelands if I don't have to for example? It seems better to have my opponent play his wastelands and possibly use them on himself gaining me value regardless.

That said, I think it fits in better with the appropriate splash. For my green splash I will probably play it there, but it will most likely be doing something different from my mono white list.

[Mystical_Jackass]

What else do you run in your Green splash list, I'm kind of interested. Is it a splash for something like Crop Rotation, or is it more for like Witness/Library or something like that?

I see what you're saying about turning on opponents Wastelands. It also probably depends if you're going first or second though, or get one of those "Mox, Land Tax, go" draws because if you get your Tax trigger and follow up with a Canopy and they Waste that, that seems like a retard magnet for them... they just went 1 for 1 with a deck that will have 3-6 Plains in their hand and since you're not dependent on green it's just a minor inconvenience for you.

[Weapon X]

I hadn't done to much work on it, but sylvan library and enchantress's presence were the main cards.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I hadn't done to much work on it, but sylvan library and enchantress's presence were the main cards.

Choke might even be maindeckable, considering the amount of blue in the format (and the fact that it forces your opponent to keep playing lands thus turning on land tax).

[btm10]

I hadn't done to much work on it, but sylvan library and enchantress's presence were the main cards.

This is exactly how Enchantress first happened. I'd be careful, or you'll just end up with a worse version of a not-so-good deck.

[Ancestral]

4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
2 Wrath Of God
1 day of judgement
4 Orim’s Chant
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Zuran Orb
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere
1 Ivory Tower
1 Pithing Needle
3 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal

2 Rest In Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Goblin Charbelcher

2 Plateau
1 Mountain
15 Plains

Sideboard
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 baneslayer angel
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 aura of silence
1 Leyline of the Void
1 council's judgement
2 Ethersworn Cannonist

That should be my current BDI parfait list.


i m testing your list and find red splashe irreleant with a small sample (10+ games ) its really worth?

[Weapon X]

Enchantress is a good deck, so I'm not sure where you're going with that. It's under represented.

You are basically seeing why I call the deck mono white. Blood moon still beats decks, and access to blasts is great when you are very likely to see blue. The main reason for red in the first place was for belcher. Being able to keep a mountain in the deck allows you to win with a 10 card library. As unlikely as that sounds I've been in that situation too many times. I hope that clears some of that up.

[Shax]

So with the new White enchantment we also get a new win condition besides Painter's Servant.

4 Scroll Rack
4 Land Tax
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Mox Diamond
14 Plains
4 Tithe
2 Grindstone
2 Painter's Servant
3 Rest in Peace
3 Circle of Protection: Red
4 Celestial Purge
4 Argivian Find
4 Abolish
4 Myth Realized
SB: 4 Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Absolute Law
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Warmth
SB: 2 Refraction Trap

So basically the gameplan now is to beatdown with Myth Realized until it gets overly annoying and switch mid-game to Painter's Servant Grindstone to make sure you seal the deal. Or try to assemble them quickly in the opening of your Tax strategy.

[Weapon X]

I don't get why you are jamming nonbos into the same deck. Why are you not focusing on one game plan?

[rufus]

I hadn't done to much work on it, but sylvan library and enchantress's presence were the main cards.

I'd think there was potential with Edge of Autumn and Carpet of Flowers

[bobomb]

I'm really enjoying this deck.

My list:


4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Burning Wish

4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Orim's Chant
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility
1 Cursed Totem
1 Blood Moon

2 Rest In Peace
2 Helm of Obedience

4 Mox Diamond

4 Crystal Vein
12 Plains
1 Mountain

Sideboard:
4 Abeyance
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Pyroclasm
1 Wrath of God
1 Tariff
1 Vindicate
1 Regrowth
1 Replenish
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Carpet of Flowers


Some comments:
- Humility is such a hoser, but I find myself constantly googling it's interactions. Is there a rule of thumb for this card?
- Thinking about Goblin Charbelcher as an alternative win condition. Pulling all the basics is pretty doable with Land Tax, the single mountain is a bonus, but Crystal Vein creates a nonbo.
- I've toyed around with the idea of a transformational sideboard... Bringing in a Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull package.

[Weapon X]

Transformational is essentially what my board allows for. Batterskull, elspeth, and cannonist I find do a lot of work when they come in. I main belcher as well so that I can move into dudes if needed. There is a reason I only play plateau as my non basic. I'm otherwise surprised to see replenish as open the vaults feels better but still unnecessary.

As for humility. 1/1, no ability -> compare to time stamp
That should be the simplest way to understand what it's doing.

[Cpt-Qc]

This thread seems dead but with the advent of creature based decks (Eldrazi) pushing away some combo decks (namely ANT), we're seeing the return of decks like Enchantress.

Now It feels like this is the perfect meta for this deck. I came up with a list that, in my playtest against friends, does really well at the moment.

1 Humility
1 Isochron Scepter
2 Sacred Mesa
4 Swords to Plowshares
12 Plains
4 Orim's Chant
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wrath of God
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Flooded Strand
2 Mobilization
1 Mistveil Plains
4 Windswept Heath
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Sundering Growth
SB: 2 Nevermore

What do you guys think? Is this tournament playable? It holds up very well against eldrazi, miracles, creature based decks, show and tell decks, etc.

[Weapon X]

I haven't changed my list since tax was made available. The deck just beats everything, but punishes any stumble hard.

I'm not a fan of scepter, but I'm not opposed to it. Between chant, plow, and tutor it is powerful I just don't like that it has to almost be a 4 mana spell. Mesa without "ramp" feels bad. If you want to play it add a planar birth to combo. That said I like rip/helm and goblin charbelcher as win cons. They fit well with the deck and use minimal space while being useful beyond simply winning the game. As a general statement I don't like non basics with tax. I have cut my plateaus for mountains finally. The draw to the deck is much like it was for vintage. We get to negate a lot of our opponents cards and play silver bullets to beat specific strategies. Straying from that weakens the deck IMHO.

Parfait is tournament playable. I've been performing with it for years. Interestingly I find as new cards and metas change it makes my deck stronger. The delve era was great for me. Combo will continue to be out worst matchup but that is also why we have a sideboard. We have main deck tools to win game 1, and succeeding in that almost guarantees a match win.

[Cpt-Qc]

I've already adjusted my list to be closer to yours but I'm wondering if you still value Solitary Confinement as high as you once did.
What's so great about it? I've thought of using mistveil plains to recur lands permanently but it's such a nonbo with RIP.

Is there any matchup some other bullets we have in the deck are not able to take care of?
The only one I can think of is burn based deck but one would think Zuran Orb will be enough to stall (aside from the sulfuric vortex part)

I'm not saying it's bad but I feel it's very narrow as I've never played with it.

Edit: Also, have you tried Elspeth, Sun's Champion instead of Knight-Errant?
I'm trying her right now and she's harder to get out safely but once she does she really wins the game by herself.

[Weapon X]

I sure do. I find it one of the most underrated cards. For 3 mana you have an answer to every deck and at worst you played a time walk in white. White has had some of the most powerful cards ever printed, but they aren't blue and tend to get ignored.

With what I have main there should be an answer for every match up. The challenge is determine which card it is and how you need to leverage it. Zuran orb is such an example. Obviously it gains life, but it's stronger use is to keep tax active. Red doesn't deal with solitary confinement ever.

As for elspeth. I like 4 mana vs 6. It's easier to cast and still wins the game by itself.

[Cpt-Qc]

First of, thanks for all the insight!

I'm trying a transformative sideboard to go more creature/control like DnT since it performs really well against miracles (once they side out all removal).

Is there any other matchups where we want to be agressive?

[Weapon X]

For the most part against any combo deck we want to be aggressive. We are generally slow so being able to pressure our opponent while setting up a combo is great. The type of combo does matter though. Against show and tell we can usually cast a rip for free and let them show our helm into play to win or an oring to beat them.

[Cpt-Qc]

For the most part against any combo deck we want to be aggressive. We are generally slow so being able to pressure our opponent while setting up a combo is great. The type of combo does matter though. Against show and tell we can usually cast a rip for free and let them show our helm into play to win or an oring to beat them.

That's exactly what I found out in my playtesting but Elspeth still seems hard to get out while leaving mana open.
Which is why I like Sacred Mesa. It's easy to get to 3 mana or 4 mana with Ochant backup.

Also, Miracles seem to have a tough time beating a token producing card like that unless it's quickly removed.
That alone makes me want to play it in the side since we cannot give that deck any time to build up.

I'm keeping both in my side for now. We'll see if they are relevant or not.

[Weapon X]

That's the reason to diversify threats game 2. It creates a lot of spells that need to be dealt with and naturally they can't all be dealt with. Sometimes a chant is all it takes to bait out a spell so that you can windmill slam what you need next turn.

[Cpt-Qc]

That is my latest list:

[Artifact]
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Isochron Scepter
4 Mox Diamond
3 Scroll Rack
1 Zuran Orb

[Enchantment]
3 Ghostly Prison
1 Humility
4 Land Tax
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
1 Solitary Confinement

[Instant]
4 Enligntened Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares

[Sorcery]
4 Wrath of God

[Land]
1 Mistveil Plains
14 Plains
4 Windswept Heath

[Sideboard]
2 Containement Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Nevermore
2 Sacred Mesa
2 Sundering Growth
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


I asked advice to a miracle player I know (since it's the closest control deck) and he told me I'd probably be better with 3 Terminus instead of Ghostly Prison. I'm now in the "meta call" phase since my meta is creature heavy.

Edit: Also considering Entreat to replace elspeth, what are your thoughts on that.

[Weapon X]

4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
3 Wrath Of God
4 Orim’s Chant
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Zuran Orb
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere
1 Ivory Tower
1 Pithing Needle
3 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal

2 Rest In Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Goblin Charbelcher


2 Mountain
16 Plains

Sideboard
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Batterskull
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Leyline of the Void
3 Ethersworn Cannonist

This is the deck I have been using since land tax was unbanned. It hasn't changed much since then. It's proven itself to be that strong. It was even stronger during that delve period. Hopefully this gives you an idea of where I'm coming from and deck ideas.

That said, leave miracles for miracles players. Can discuss whatever you want otherwise. I can be blunt or wordy. Whichever is preferred.

[Cpt-Qc]

Roger on miracles, I was just wondering your opinion :P I think they're not really worth it either without top.

I'v been using Sundering Growth in the side since it interacts well with the secondary plan (tokens) but would it be better to put Seal of Cleansing instead?
I would be trading instant/surprise effect for reliability. Is that why you use it? If so, has it been more successful or have you never tried the instant Disenchant variants?

[Weapon X]

My answer is seal or something similar (aura of silence, etc). It's in the board for a reason, when you need it you need it. We get to play 4 enlightened tutor, take advantage of that. If you can find an artifact/enchantment version for an effect it should be given priority. This also gives us the ability to have an extremely strong sideboard. 4 tutors plus X gives us a lot of power to streamline against bad matchups. Even with what I currently run there are enough broad cards that you still get overlap and more consistency. That is the epitome of success, I get a higher percentage chance of getting cards I need when they are needed. Silver bullets are good for a reason. If one card beats a deck you probably want to see that card.

I do have an abolish in the board on occasion. But again it is there more so because it takes advantage of the engine. But to reiterate we basically get a brainstorm situation with this deck. 4 enlightened tutors is like playing 4 vampiric tutors without a drawback. Maximizing it's usefulness should always be at the back of your mind.

[Cpt-Qc]

My answer is seal or something similar (aura of silence, etc). It's in the board for a reason, when you need it you need it. We get to play 4 enlightened tutor, take advantage of that. If you can find an artifact/enchantment version for an effect it should be given priority. This also gives us the ability to have an extremely strong sideboard. 4 tutors plus X gives us a lot of power to streamline against bad matchups. Even with what I currently run there are enough broad cards that you still get overlap and more consistency. That is the epitome of success, I get a higher percentage chance of getting cards I need when they are needed. Silver bullets are good for a reason. If one card beats a deck you probably want to see that card.

I do have an abolish in the board on occasion. But again it is there more so because it takes advantage of the engine. But to reiterate we basically get a brainstorm situation with this deck. 4 enlightened tutors is like playing 4 vampiric tutors without a drawback. Maximizing it's usefulness should always be at the back of your mind.

Understood. Anyway we are more of a prison deck so instants responses are not our forte.
I think I got sidetracked a little since I playtest against my friend's omni-tell sometimes and I like the interaction of Cannonist, wait for him to cast anything then destroy the Omniscience in response.

I'm in the process of acquiring 1 blood moon for this deck but untill then I'll just play more Ghostly Prison.
I'll have to replace my white fetches for Arid Mesa once they get reprinted too since I really think fetches are necessary to shuffle after a scroll rack (when tax shuffling/tutor is not available).
Also, it's not like a few fetches affect our life since we can always pitch them to Mox Diamond. There really isn't any downside to having a few fetches imo.

[Weapon X]

Don't get me wrong, instants are fine. We just happen to have access to one of the strongest tutors available and should take advantage of it.

I find we match up well against Omnitel. They can play our win con for us.

Bloodmoon is a reason to not play fetches. Tithe and duals is probably a better option. Another strength of this deck is blanking a lot of cards for your opponent without hurting ourselves.

[Cpt-Qc]

Don't get me wrong, instants are fine. We just happen to have access to one of the strongest tutors available and should take advantage of it.

I find we match up well against Omnitel. They can play our win con for us.

Bloodmoon is a reason to not play fetches. Tithe and duals is probably a better option. Another strength of this deck is blanking a lot of cards for your opponent without hurting ourselves.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if we cast blood moon, we can just use the fetch as a mountain and I think this is fine isn't it?
It just means more nonbasic mountains (yeah we can't chose to get white, but chances are we already have 2+ white mana with us so does it really matter?)

[Weapon X]

We can use it as a mountain, but we can also just play mountain instead. If the reason to play a fetch is purely to shuffle we have other options; Tithe for instance. With regards to my build I'm mono white. Mountain is there to play 3 cards that only need a single red and there are numerous ways to get it. My secondary win is charbelcher which is the only reason for at least 2 mountains. I'm also minimizing lands so it is to my benefit to have my lands be actual lands.

[Cpt-Qc]

I might just play 1 mountain since I prefer Scepter to Charbelcher (both act as win-con in different matchups).

I especially like fetches in case of a Chalice Lock (god knows chalice is everywhere these days).
In that situation, you cannot shuffle at all if you don't have a fetch (all your other options are 1 CC).

Edit: I just remembered this apply to Counter/Top lock as well (can't cast 1CC spells).

[Cpt-Qc]

[Artifact]
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Isochron Scepter
4 Mox Diamond
3 Scroll Rack
1 Zuran Orb

[Enchantment]
1 Blood Moon
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Humility
4 Land Tax
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
1 Solitary Confinement

[Instant]
4 Enligntened Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares

[Sorcery]
4 Wrath of God

[Land]
1 Mistveil Plains
13 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Windswept Heath

[Sideboard]
2 Containement Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Nevermore
2 Sacred Mesa
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

This is the list I'll try at my store. What are your thoughts on the 3 vs 4 Wrath main?

I could replace a wog with a third prison to lower the curve but I'm not sure if it's as effective if you don't have them early.

[Weapon X]

Was literally in a bush for 4 days...

So sorry for a late reply, but here I go. I think 3 is the sweet spot. There are a lot of times spot removal tends to be better but like you mention chalice/counterbalance are cards. At 4cmc the cards should be haymakers for us, and wrath can do that. The issue there is like I mentioned before, decks can ride a single card through our prison elements and beat us without a need to commit to the board. Also consider decks like elves where we could die before we get to wrath mana. Essentially we want to walk a fine line where we can get consistency without needed pieces in play while also having a diverse enough curve to not scoop to those previously named cards.

Short answer: 3 wraths, other card could be something else like an abeyance or other such card that may be worth a single slot.

[zenitramleirdag]

Was literally in a bush for 4 days...

So sorry for a late reply, but here I go. I think 3 is the sweet spot. There are a lot of times spot removal tends to be better but like you mention chalice/counterbalance are cards. At 4cmc the cards should be haymakers for us, and wrath can do that. The issue there is like I mentioned before, decks can ride a single card through our prison elements and beat us without a need to commit to the board. Also consider decks like elves where we could die before we get to wrath mana. Essentially we want to walk a fine line where we can get consistency without needed pieces in play while also having a diverse enough curve to not scoop to those previously named cards.

Short answer: 3 wraths, other card could be something else like an abeyance or other such card that may be worth a single slot.

i'm also actually in a quandary about this..my default list(which i based off on your list by the way) has 3 wraths..but when playing against DnT, grixis delver, elves and other decks that are creature heavy; i feel that i can beat them more consistently with 4 wrath effects in the main..

glad to see this forum moving again, i seldom see any discussion here lately, i was afraid the forum might be dying, good to see people posting here discussing this deck again..

[Weapon X]

It may also be helpful to think of humility as a wrath. And for what it's worth I ran a parallax wave for a while.

[JackaBo]

Isn't this the perfect shell for nahiri? The plus two is great with landtax and the - is relevant as well. You need no other wincon. Just keep wear/tear in the board for needles and load up on sweepers and blood moons.

[Weapon X]

Not really. Cycle a card for 4 vs draw 7+ for 2 seems an obvious choice. Exile specific cards for 4 is also already done better. To top it off, if you ultimate you should win, but if you are even remotely close to that you should have already won. Nahiri isn't that great. This isn't standard. The best looter in the format (legacy) is mini Jace, and he does a whole lot more for a lot less.

[Cpt-Qc]

Alright tine for some tournament reports.

I piloted parfait for the second time yesterday and got the following results.

Round 1: Eldrazi Stompy 2-0
Blood moon x2, nothing else to say.

Round 2: UWR Stoneblade 1-2
G1-2 were both pretty 1 sided.
G3 Not sure I could have done better, drew sideboard cards and so did he. Lots of enchantments removal end me.

I had sided out scepter but in retrospect it was still pretty good since he was more creature heavy with delvers.

Round 3: Burn 2-1
G1 I naturally drew tax, rack and confinement. Only had to tutor for orb T2 to last until I could set up.
G2 I tutored for copr on turn 1 and played it on 2 but got burned pretty hard with 2x eidoleon. I might have survived if I had sworded one. Misplay to leave both alive.
G3 I tutored for copr again but he only had goblin and swiftspear for permanent dmg so I was able to wrath and then prevent all further dmg until I got the kill combo.

Round 4: Miracles 0-2
G1 I got RIP out T2 and then he proceeded to counterspell both my Helms into exile. Then it was just a matter of time before he assembled Counter/Top and it was the end of me casting anything.
G2 I gambled and kept a hand with tutor x2, seal, mox, land and the combo kill. After I played mox, tutored for tax and it got forced. Next turn same thing but he counterspelled. Then he exiled my mox and played jace, fatesealing my lands bottom until I died.

Maybe my biggest mistake was risking it all in my last game. Now that I think about it, exactly the same thing happened the week before when I faced miracles.
I have to restrain myself more against a counterspell heavy deck I guess. Should I have kept that hand?

[Weapon X]

They shouldn't care about rip. You should chant before a key spell so that it either resolves or you suck out a counter.

[Cpt-Qc]

They shouldn't care about rip. You should chant before a key spell so that it either resolves or you suck out a counter.

That is precisely what happened but chant never resolves under the lock :(

[Weapon X]

I can't say I've had that problem yet then. Just forcing them to use mana for their lock can be enough to break through. Again we have a diverse curve so we can power through it: win cons are 4, answers are everywhere else. And miracles doesn't pressure is so we have time.

[Cpt-Qc]

I might just have gotten unlucky then. I will keep testing the build.

Maybe I was correct to keep this risky hand knowing very well that my opponent was on miracles...

[Weapon X]

There is always a time for high risk/high reward, it's why people play decks like oops and belcher. It's always possible to win/lose to a nut draw though, that's part of the game. By the same token sometimes hands can line up perfectly. Knowledge of the format is the best answer in the end. You need to know where choke points are and find a way to leverage them to your advantage. Keeping risky hands can be fine, sometimes it's just how you play it out. Simply consider these 3 cards: land tax, mox diamond, plains. When and how you play those cards can have huge ramifications right from turn 1. Play just the plains? Mox into tax? Just the mox? Sandbag for a turn? Etc. We walk a line where ultimately we want to force our opponent to play our game and those turn 1 plays can set the tone.

[Cpt-Qc]

I'll try using a Charbelcher instead of the fourth WoG since I had not before.

How often would you say you kill through damage?

[Weapon X]

Not that often, yet often enough to call it a win con. It gives me a colourless removal spell though and takes advantage of the scroll rack engine. For the single slot it takes its powerful. Added bonus, being that it's one card it is not something an opponent will be prepared for. Rip/helm is always the focus.

[Cpt-Qc]

I'm also going to try 2 revoker in the side since beaters are often useful in sided games and I don't run a needle in the 75 currently.

[ESG]

There is always a time for high risk/high reward, it's why people play decks like oops and belcher. It's always possible to win/lose to a nut draw though, that's part of the game. By the same token sometimes hands can line up perfectly. Knowledge of the format is the best answer in the end. You need to know where choke points are and find a way to leverage them to your advantage. Keeping risky hands can be fine, sometimes it's just how you play it out. Simply consider these 3 cards: land tax, mox diamond, plains. When and how you play those cards can have huge ramifications right from turn 1. Play just the plains? Mox into tax? Just the mox? Sandbag for a turn? Etc. We walk a line where ultimately we want to force our opponent to play our game and those turn 1 plays can set the tone.

This is a truly excellent post, and the same logic really applies to any Legacy deck. The more you know, the better decisions you can make. Sometimes it's even correct in a matchup to keep a no-lander or to mulligan to 1 looking for a hate card. Strategy changes deck to deck, matchup to matchup, and even can shift within a game.

[Cpt-Qc]

So far so good with the changes. I really love the revokers in the side.

I'm still struggling with Shardless BUG and most decay decks but otherwise I've had good results.
Once the shardless players know I have a blood moon, they will always fetch for basics and now the players at my store have all seen it.

I'm not so sure how to approach this MU. Between the Thoughtseize, Hymn and Liliana, they can render our hand completely inert while applying pressure.
I try to keep the board clean of DRS to avoid the ramp and the T2 hymn but then they get the goyfs out and I am left without removals. They have so many cheap threats.

[Weapon X]

Land tax beats hymn. The thing is that they have to 1:1 us constantly and we can do that back. We also have cards that x:1 them. Those are the ones that need to stick. Humility, trinisphere, rip, blood moon, ghostly prison, etc. We put them in a position where they have to deal with the engine so they don't just lose to our card advantage or they have to deal with something that shuts off their deck.

As a side, abrupt decay is why I play one leyline of the void.

[Cpt-Qc]

I think I would rather play a third RIP instead of Leyline of the void since at least it clears the graveyard when topdecked (Leyline can still be Maelstrom Pulsed / Golgari Charmed anyway).

Maybe I'm just playing it wrong and shouldn't be so afraid of hymn. That would allow me to keep my removal for actual threats.

I'm still adjusting to sideboard options and I think I need to better evaluate what to take out against different matchups.

[Weapon X]

Leyline can't be decayed and generally not dealt with at instant speed. Helm shouldn't be dealt with ever. This means you can leyline/helm for the win without losing to a removal spell. Rip does so much more that it has a target on it.

Hymn is one of those cards. It's powerful because it's random. If you tax before however it's most likely hitting land which doesn't make it as random. Also we don't rely on specific cards to play our game so we can't just lose to it.

[Cpt-Qc]

I'm actually considering siding out Helm against decay decks since it cannot work alone and it's too dangerous to rely on the combo win.

I think I have more chances to win through Elspeth / Charbelcher / Sacred Mesa since they can work solo.

[Weapon X]

Helm can still be good on its own though. Reanimator is a prime example. Some opponents play good creatures that we can still leverage so while you may not combo win, milling and getting a guy isn't bad. You do need awareness of your deck if you go this route. Knowing what options you have to win is always important.

[Cpt-Qc]

Oh for sure, I was specifically talking about the decay decks.
Sorry if this wasn't clear :laugh:

I actually won games against Omni-tell just taking the Emrakul that was setup for the release the ants kill.
It is oh so sweet.

[Cpt-Qc]

After a bit of testing I actually went from 4 to 2 fetches.

I still like the free shuffle once in a while but 4 was definitely too much and the more non basics there are, the less belcher will kill.

[zenitramleirdag]

After a bit of testing I actually went from 4 to 2 fetches.

I still like the free shuffle once in a while but 4 was definitely too much and the more non basics there are, the less belcher will kill.


i never actually felt the need to run fetches..i'm also running blood moon in the main so i suppose i'm better off with just having all my lands be basics..but if i were to drop blood moon to run non-basics, i'd probably try these: Kjeldoran Outpost, crystal vein or city of traitors..

what does your list look like Cpt-Qc?

[Cpt-Qc]

i never actually felt the need to run fetches..i'm also running blood moon in the main so i suppose i'm better off with just having all my lands be basics..but if i were to drop blood moon to run non-basics, i'd probably try these: Kjeldoran Outpost, crystal vein or city of traitors..

what does your list look like Cpt-Qc?

I dont "need" fetches but I like being able to search for a mountain or shuffle without the full engine.
Sometimes you have to work with rack alone and it helped me before so I feel more comfortable with fetches.

This is my list so far.

Enchantment (14)

1x Blood Moon
2x Ghostly Prison
1x Humility
4x Land Tax
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Rest in Peace
1x Solitary Confinement

Land (19)

2x Arid Mesa
2x Mountain
15x Plains

Artifact (12)

1x Goblin Charbelcher
2x Helm of Obedience
1x Isochron Scepter
4x Mox Diamond
3x Scroll Rack
1x Zuran Orb

Instant (12)

4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Orim's Chant
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery (3)

3x Wrath of God

Sideboard (15)

1x Circle of Protection: Red
2x Containment Priest
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Nevermore
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Sacred Mesa
2x Seal of Cleansing
2x Spirit of the Labyrinth

[bizdoin]

I found this recently list if anyone is interested http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=67113

[Weapon X]

It is a grave error to play parfait without 4 enlightened tutors.

[bizdoin]

I agree. but is very curious the list that guy play

[Weapon X]

It's not that curious, he's basically building mono white miracles. All the control/protection aspects of miracles, and to a lesser extent parfait, has been completely ignored.

[zenitramleirdag]

It's not that curious, he's basically building mono white miracles. All the control/protection aspects of miracles, and to a lesser extent parfait, has been completely ignored.

i find his lack of "chants" disturbing though..
list seems solid nonetheless..

[Cpt-Qc]

It's not that curious, he's basically building mono white miracles. All the control/protection aspects of miracles, and to a lesser extent parfait, has been completely ignored.

That's what I was going to say. This is not Parfait, it's mono white miracles with a small tax/rack engine.

[Cpt-Qc]

Have you had time to try Sanctum Prelate as a sideboard card? I've been thinking it's way too good to ignore.

It's probably going to replace my nevermore as it does the same job and then some.
Prelate on 2 stops abrupt decay/golgari charm, disenchant/naturalize, ancient grudge/smash to smithereens, qasali pridemage, wear, etc.

It's just too bad it's not an enchantment as well!

[Weapon X]

I've thought about it, but the numbers that you want to name beat us. It is a nonbo for us. Death and taxes will love it. That is the only reason I have any right now.

[Cpt-Qc]

True, true... bleh... I'm so desperately trying to find a way to beat Decay I forgot the basic in that we cannot win either.
There's just so many decks with access to decay in my meta that I'm ready to try anything.

I also though about trying replenish but with RIP it doesn't work so well.

[Weapon X]

What is it about decay that you are losing games too?

[Cpt-Qc]

What is it about decay that you are losing games too?

Well you get a silver bullet with tutor and play it, then they just kill it.
You basically waste 2 turns + 2 cards and it gets destroyed using 1 card at instant speed meaning they don't even need to stop progressing their board.

Each fetchable win-con is also a multi-parts combo and one of them is always 3CC or less.
If you have Tax but lack Rack and fetch it, you get stuck with a useless card after they decay it (assuming they are smart enough not to land drop).
Same for RIP/Helm, Scepter/Chant, Tax/Orb/Belcher.

Decay is just easy to blame I guess since it's removal that hits enchantments and artifacts maindeck.
1 on 1 removal is terrifying if we can't land the tax/rack combo since we often have to 2 for 1 ourselves without the engine.

Maybe I'm playing it wrong and should just hold on to tutors a little longer. It just feels like if you let them have the lead you can't ever come back.

[knopfler]

True, true... bleh... I'm so desperately trying to find a way to beat Decay I forgot the basic in that we cannot win either.
There's just so many decks with access to decay in my meta that I'm ready to try anything.

I also though about trying replenish but with RIP it doesn't work so well.

Hi. If you want a way to avoid Decay think in cards like

spellskite
devoted caretaker
standard bearer
Hanna's Custody


and for creatures protection:

mother of runes
benevolent bodyguard


Regards

[Weapon X]

Honestly they can literally decay anything they want. They only have 4 at most and can't possibly decay every threat we have. Because rip/helm is the main way we win I play a single leyline of the void because they can't stop the other half of our combo. That said maybe you are playing it wrong. If you fear decay so much you should jam helm first and then chant->rip->win effortlessly. You can't be decayed if they can't play spells. It's also a reason to look to win cons in the 4cc area. It's an indirect way to ensure it's a high impact spell you are playing.


I think you'll notice our decks are different as well. I'm only getting 2:1 on 3 moxes and the 4 tutors. All the while I'm forcing my opponent to play my game. Some food for thought perhaps.

[Cpt-Qc]

Hi. If you want a way to avoid Decay think in cards like

spellskite
devoted caretaker
standard bearer
Hanna's Custody


and for creatures protection:

mother of runes
benevolent bodyguard


Regards

devoted caretaker is interesting. I'd need to free 1-2 more sideboard slots for it tho.

I've thought about Spellskite but it's just a Greater Auramancy really.
It's gonna get blown and then they'll keep doing their stuff.


Honestly they can literally decay anything they want. They only have 4 at most and can't possibly decay every threat we have. Because rip/helm is the main way we win I play a single leyline of the void because they can't stop the other half of our combo. That said maybe you are playing it wrong. If you fear decay so much you should jam helm first and then chant->rip->win effortlessly. You can't be decayed if they can't play spells. It's also a reason to look to win cons in the 4cc area. It's an indirect way to ensure it's a high impact spell you are playing.


I think you'll notice our decks are different as well. I'm only getting 2:1 on 3 moxes and the 4 tutors. All the while I'm forcing my opponent to play my game. Some food for thought perhaps.

Should I go for the missing piece of Tax/Rack when I have one but I'm missing the other?
Or should I keep the tutors for getting silver bullets and hope to draw into the engine (I feel bad for tutoring land tax sometimes since it's a 4 of)?

Also, technically, orim's chant is often a 2 for 1 as well (at least against counterspell decks).

[knopfler]

@Cpt-Qc: Thanks, I'm glad to help.

@Weapon X : You also could use Phyrexian Metamorph. I love this card because it's very versatile. It works against show and tell decks, it allows you to copy your isochron scepters, it allows you to copy any dangerous creature/artifact your opponent could have in play and it only costs 3 cmc + 2 life points or 1 blue mana

I read you were worried about hymm to tourach and discarding cards. I never tested but I would like to use Library of Leng specially with Standstill decks. If you could get cards advantage with dark confidants or other cards you would recover your discards.

Regards.

[Weapon X]

@qc: honest answer, there is no definite answer. This deck allows you to leverage your knowledge of the format. If you aren't being pressured by an opponent you basically always have 2 lines aggro or control. You need to know the role you should take against a deck and to make it more complicated that role can change during the game.

Your tutor question is just one example of that. And it needs to be answered by the game you are in at the time. Tax/rack = enlightened tutor+
That is a very general statement, so take it with some salt, but it can suggest an answer. The engine when active is closer to a probability demonic tutor with bonus. E Tutor by itself gets you a specific card the moment you need it. So to go into it a little more, because of card numbers we are likely to just raw dog our engine and reap its benefits. The flip side is that we do play silver bullets that can beat archetypes on their own, and by the nature of that are less likely to draw the needed one when needed. The tutors are there mainly for the bullets, the game may dictate otherwise.

@knopfler: I don't want to copy a sceptre that I don't play. There also isn't a need for more then one as it hinders the stronger cards we have access to. Metamorph is an ok card. In the context of my deck list it is not. I already have answers to show and tell that don't require me to roll the dice to the extent metamorph will.
You also must have misread the discard concerns. Land tax beats discard on its own while scroll rack gives us the best possible recovery engine.

[Cpt-Qc]

Fair enough.

Also, this deck is the first I play a "hoser" card like Blood Moon in. Do you board it out once your opponent knows you have it?

I've tested both but I haven't quite made my mind yet. Sadly, the players at my LGS are fetching more and more basics.
Maybe it isn't even worth being in the 75 in a closed meta.

[knopfler]

@Weapon X:
1)Metamorph allows you to have backup of your isochron scepter and you only play 1 copy with so many abrupt decay in the format but it's ok if you think it can survive.
2)Land tax only will give you lands and it's true you can change them with scroll rack, but what would it happen if you discard isochron scepter that you have only 1 copy? you won't never play your deck as if you would have it.
@qc
1)Tutors are good depending on the deck you are playing against. A deck with counters or many removals will make you 2x1, they will destroy/counter your searched card
2)Many decks use non basic lands so blood moon or Magus of the moon should be on main/sideboard depending on the local metagame you will expect to find in the tournments you participate. You could try to use cards that Stop fetchlands like Angel of Jubilation

[Cpt-Qc]

@Weapon X:
1)Metamorph allows you to have backup of your isochron scepter and you only play 1 copy with so many abrupt decay in the format but it's ok if you think it can survive.
2)Land tax only will give you lands and it's true you can change them with scroll rack, but what would it happen if you discard isochron scepter that you have only 1 copy? you won't never play your deck as if you would have it.
@qc
1)Tutors are good depending on the deck you are playing against. A deck with counters or many removals will make you 2x1, they will destroy/counter your searched card
2)Many decks use non basic lands so blood moon or Magus of the moon should be on main/sideboard depending on the local metagame you will expect to find in the tournments you participate. You could try to use cards that Stop fetchlands like Angel of Jubilation

WeaponX isn't playing Scepter tho, only I am. Metamorph is cute but I think it's way too situational since it would still require to imprint another card once you copy scepter.

Also just getting a copy of your opponent's creature is usually not enough to change the board state.

[Weapon X]

Reiterate a third time. I don't play sceptre.

@qc: I think that answer is more dependant on the deck. I tend to leave it in unless there only playing basics. Even if it shuts of fetch lands it's not terrible. I play exclusively basics now and 3sphere so I get to also shut off wastelanding their own dual to take tax off. It is literally 1 card that can cause an opponent to play bad or just struggle to deal with it. That has a huge impact for the smallest investment. Locally I'm the wild card. I've taken brews to our tournaments and done well. Closed meta can be a strength. Every small victory you can create adds up.

[Cpt-Qc]

Reiterate a third time. I don't play sceptre.

@qc: I think that answer is more dependant on the deck. I tend to leave it in unless there only playing basics. Even if it shuts of fetch lands it's not terrible. I play exclusively basics now and 3sphere so I get to also shut off wastelanding their own dual to take tax off. It is literally 1 card that can cause an opponent to play bad or just struggle to deal with it. That has a huge impact for the smallest investment. Locally I'm the wild card. I've taken brews to our tournaments and done well. Closed meta can be a strength. Every small victory you can create adds up.

My meta is weird atm: it's mostly fair deck players (delvers, dnt, shardless, miracles) and people like me (some odd 5c deck, mill, goblins, etc). Almost no combo atm.

I really love that dnt is seeing a resurgence because it feels like a bye on parfait and its chasing miracles a little :P

[Weapon X]

If it's mostly fair decks you may be able to aggressively combo. If that's the case you can cut some bullets for more rip/helm.

[Cpt-Qc]

If it's mostly fair decks you may be able to aggressively combo. If that's the case you can cut some bullets for more rip/helm.

I'm gonna try a third RIP. It also helps with my decay phobia since it makes a pretty good bait :tongue:

On another note, a few weeks ago I got "Slaughter Gamed" repetitively. It felt horrible.

[Weapon X]

It's funny you mention that as it was the reason I started to make some minor changes. 2 wrath of god and 1 day of judgement being a prime example. It actually made the deck better to me as it helped with side boarding options and makes the deck "more diverse" to begin with. Also because I can't always jam tip, surgical extraction and similar effects can be issues. It has also helped against cabal therapy.

[Cpt-Qc]

It's funny you mention that as it was the reason I started to make some minor changes. 2 wrath of god and 1 day of judgement being a prime example. It actually made the deck better to me as it helped with side boarding options and makes the deck "more diverse" to begin with. Also because I can't always jam tip, surgical extraction and similar effects can be issues. It has also helped against cabal therapy.

Yeah, I have 2x Elspeth in my board but I want to replace one with Gideon eventually, as well as replacing one Wrath too. It's hard winning when they take all your wincons :P

Also meddling mage is a thing.

[Weapon X]

That's another common card. It's why I have a pyroblast and reb in my board now. The deck is literally full of ways to gain incremental advantage

[zenitramleirdag]

went 3-1 last saturday on a small tourney at my LGS..

1st round vs eldrazi: lost(0-2)
-this is the first time i lost to this deck twice in a row..he just chaliced on (1) me in both games and i wasn't able to draw into any o-rings to set my PTE's free to stop his creatures from running over me..

2nd round vs death and taxes: won(2-0)
-knowing what he was on even before the game began helped me win game one easily, i cast a pithing needle turn 1 naming aether vial, on his turn he laid down a port a vial and passed..on my 2nd turn, i laid down a diamond(pitching plains) to cast an early blood moon..turns out, he's holding a ton of non-basics that he wasn't able to cast things for many turns because of blood moon, and that gave me a lot of room to set up the rip/helm combo..2nd game also went easy, i just drew into all my removal the entire game, i guess i was just lucky..i know its favorable but i don't think its supposed to be THAT easy, i feel i just got too lucky in this game, would love to play against DnT again in the future..

3rd round vs storm: won(2-1)
-first turn canonist in games 1 and 3 really made it look like a one-sided game..the game i lost(game 2) was due to him holding 2 decays in hand, he was able to get rid of my canonist and a sphere in play, he comboed off afterwards..

4th round vs titan post: won(2-0)
-the match up felt really favorable, they never pressure us, so there is really so much room to set up the combo..he needled my helm, but we got o-ring to get free from that..he surgicalled my tutor but the tax/rack engine still got me there..


notes:
-i'm running a 3/1 split of PTE and swords because i just want to try things out but mostly to play around extraction effects and cabal therapy, same reason why i replaced one of my WoG's with DoJ..one situation where it mattered was in my game against DnT when i got him unable to play spells under a blood moon, and his Flickerwisp, Mirran Crusader, Serra Avenger got stuck in hand because they require double white..when he landed a mom, i didn't want to path it because it can allow him to search up a plains and it felt great that i had a swords to kill it instead..

-i'm thinking of incorporating a copy of runed halo in the board maybe in lieu of the 2nd white leyline, its good against combo and aggro..i saw some infect players in the room that i must've dodged in pairing..

[knopfler]

-i'm thinking of incorporating a copy of runed halo in the board maybe in lieu of the 2nd white leyline, its good against combo and aggro..i saw some infect players in the room that i must've dodged in pairing..

Hi. You could give a try to Aegis of the Gods.

Regards

[Weapon X]

Runed halo has more application so it may be worth it for you. Leyline is there for storm mostly. The potential for it to start in play before they do anything is where its strength lies. Combine that with it being not affected by decay and you have a really strong slot. Halo is more susceptible to decay and naming the wrong card makes it useless. So essentially if you want to play halo you probably shouldn't cut leyline for it. Halo is more of a supplement to your broader use cards.

[zenitramleirdag]

i see, being "decayeable"" is whats really making me think twice about the halo, i just keep coming back to it because i often find myself in many situations both against aggro and combo, where i am wishing i had a halo..i wouldn't be too worried though of not knowing what card to name with it because we can still use it reactively..

[zenitramleirdag]

what's our game plan against elves? what creatures do we path first? what cards do we side out against them? i know they can generate a lot of mana, do we side out ghostly prison? trinisphere stays, right? does pithing needle stay? if it does, what card do we name? is it worth keeping blood moon in for cradle? got any tips?

[Weapon X]

I said it in another thread, but I'll streamline even more here.

Chant-> wrath will probably win you more games then anything pre-board as chant stops what the deck tries to do and wrath clears what it has done.

Otherwise we have humility, 3sphere, blood moon, cannonist, etc. The game can play like a weird tempo match. This matchup also highlights why wrath is better then terminus, you want an answer not a delay.

And I don't think I hit on prison in the other thread. So prison is still worth keeping in. Elves is similar to painter stone. You attack for the win and threaten a combo. People seem to only register the combo as the win condition while they die to a thousand scratches. Prison helps to not die to the scratches as we have answers for the alpha combo.

Needle is a one of. So it can still be good, that's something you would have to weigh. Fetchlands, drs, ranger, symbiote... there are targets

[Weapon X]

Well it finally happened, I'm making changes to my board. The biggest one for me is playing nahiri the harbinger, something I thought I would never play. As I thought of some tweeks however it found its way in the forefront. Batterskull is gone and I'm back to Baneslayer almost exclusively because of nahiri. I have also finally cut leyline of the void in favour of a third rip. The deck feels as tight as ever.

Sideboard

1 nahiri, the harbinger
1 rest in peace
3 timely reinforcements
1 aura of silence
1 councils judgement
1 elspeth, knight-errant
1 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
2 leyline of sanctity
2 ethersworn cannonist
1 Baneslayer angel


Card economy and versatility continue to win the day.

[Nik842]

Well it finally happened, I'm making changes to my board. The biggest one for me is playing nahiri the harbinger, something I thought I would never play. As I thought of some tweeks however it found its way in the forefront. Batterskull is gone and I'm back to Baneslayer almost exclusively because of nahiri. I have also finally cut leyline of the void in favour of a third rip. The deck feels as tight as ever.

Sideboard

1 nahiri, the harbinger
1 rest in peace
3 timely reinforcements
1 aura of silence
1 councils judgement
1 elspeth, knight-errant
1 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
2 leyline of sanctity
2 ethersworn cannonist
1 Baneslayer angel


Card economy and versatility continue to win the day.

Since you're using Nahiri to cheat in Baneslayer Angel, why not replace it with a bigger creature?

Edit: added missing word.

[Weapon X]

Not really using it to cheat in Baneslayer. It's an option though, and it's castable beyond nahiri. Nahiri is there more for removal options and as a helm tutor.

[Cpt-Qc]

I'm reworking my board and I'm wondering how I should play it against shardless.
Would it be alright to drop all 4 chants since the deck has very few countermagic and I have tons of things to bring in?

Although it never happened, I feel like chanting while visions trigger/cascade is on the stack is powerful but I'm not sure what else to cut.
It seems I don't have much I want to side out but so much I want in...

Edit: Some changes I made to my sideboard include adding Timely Reinforcements. I'm not too sure if they fit in that kind of matchup (kinda agro but they play the long game).
Here's the list I'll play tomorrow:

1 Humility
1 Isochron Scepter
4 Swords to Plowshares
16 Plains
4 Orim's Chant
1 Ghostly Prison
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
4 Mox Diamond
2 Wrath of God
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Zuran Orb
2 Helm of Obedience
3 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
2 Mountain
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Day of Judgment
1 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Nevermore
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 3 Timely Reinforcements

[Weapon X]

Cut back on 2:1's. that's the easiest place to start. Otherwise that's the beauty of the deck and why I say knowledge goes a long way. As long as you know your plan and how to implement it, it is the right call. As a deck we play to our outs all game, we just have the option to jam things first if we think we can.

[Cpt-Qc]

I was very glad I studied the matchup a lot this week because I ended up facing shardless twice tonight! It's really growing in pupularity here.

I went 2-1-1 tonight (1 loss and 1 win to shardless). I would have totally gone 3-1 had I not made a terrible mistake.

After a few Land Tax triggers I was down to 2 lands in the deck and decided to leave 1 mountain. Turns out when I used belcher I only did 3x2 damage...
Getting all lands out of the deck is probably always the right play unless you have very few cards remaining.

Except for the 1 game where I drew 7 lands in a row, I was pretty satisfied with what I brought.
The 2 revokers were such a house too since it seems every deck is now running planeswalkers.

[Weapon X]

I've actually gone back to a revoker in my board so I can hit things needle can't.

[zenitramleirdag]

I've actually gone back to a revoker in my board so I can hit things needle can't.

i can see its value in the deck..a card to supplement needle, another speed bump/silver bullet for the opponent to answer..failing to answer it would significantly slow them down allowing us more time to set up the combo..

[Cpt-Qc]

Have you ever tried the Painter/Grindstone combo instead of RIP/Help? Painter makes a fine blocker even tho it makes the opponent's removal live.

Also Grindstone can potentially get there naturally whereas helm never will.
The classic "decay RIP while Helm ability is on the stack" might leave you with none of your pieces (as opposed to keeping the grindstone for rebuild).

It might also give us more incentive to have red blasts in the sideboard if we get them to double up as removal.

I wonder if it might be worth it to have lower casting cost win-cons so that we can more easily Chant + Combo on the same turn.

Edit:Clarified some sentences.

[kinda]

Have you ever tried the Painter/Grindstone combo instead of RIP/Help? Painter makes a fine blocker even tho it makes the opponent's removal live.

Also Grindstone can potentially get there naturally whereas you are almost guaranteed to lose helm if you use it without RIP.
The classic "decay RIP while Helm ability is on the stack" still leaves you with half your combo up.

It might also give us more incentive to have red blasts in the sideboard if we get them to double up as removal.

I wonder if it might be worth it to have lower casting cost win-cons so that we can more easily Chant + Combo on the same turn.

Maindeck rest in peace is the best reason to run this deck or Quinn right now. Rip hoses so many good cards and even full decks. Painter grindstone without all the red protection spells is terrible. If you aren't doing this already I strongly suggest 4 rip and running them out no fear early in the game. Works great in Quinn.

I made a list of decks and graveyard dependency in the contamination thread: (ignore matchup categories)

HGY: heavy graveyard usage
GY: some graveyard dependency

Very Good:
Dredge HGY
BU reanimator HGY
RB reanimator HGY
Lands HGY
Tin Fins HGY

Good:
Shardless BUG HGY
Goblins
Aluren

Even: 45-55% Win Rate
Miracles GY
DNT
ANT HGY
BUG Delver GY
Canadian HGY
Show and Tell (no but Leyline helm is still good here since u can drop the second piece in with show and tell)
Grixis GY
Stoneblade GY usually
Noble BUG GY
Eldrazi

Bad:
Infect
Elves just drs and they don't need him
UR delver GY
Burn

[Cpt-Qc]

Oh I know RIP is pretty good. I was just wondering if the other similar combo had been tested in this deck recently.

[Weapon X]

I dropped Quinn when land tax was unbanned. Painter/stone worked better there as it's draw engine was very mana intensive so the win con needed to be cheap. Otherwise there really is no reason to swap. We get a win con composed of two cards that are still ok on their own. That right there is a hallmark for card selection.

Decay of painter on the stack, in reference to your comment, is even worse. And to reiterate, decay is why I used to play a leyline of the void in my board.

The draw to blasts is that people will play blue regardless.

Because we play a prison game we are not forced to be fast. We play survive and the we can win when we want.

[Cpt-Qc]

Well that answers my question if you're coming from Quinn!

On another subject, I think I had my worst experience with revoker this week.
I realized just how bad it can be when you actually want to keep humility in.

For this reason I think I'll just play a 1:1 split with needle.
I like having a needle-clock but it feels so bad when your only way to shutdown a plan is to turn off your own stuff...
Also I like having different casting costs in this era of CB and Prelate.

[Weapon X]

The 1:1 split of needle and revoker feels right. They hit different things after all. Plus game 2 is more likely when you want to shut mana off with added pressure.

[kinda]

I just run needles in quinn for this reason and revoker dies to my board wipes. Speaking of which ...why are you running doj and wog over terminus?

[Cpt-Qc]

Terminus is pretty unreliable without library manipulation and scroll rack isn't as good as top at setting up miracles. Miracles.dec also has access to brainstorm and ponders (+4 with snapcasters) to set them up so without all these it is much harder to reliably use.

Also since we often produce a lot of lands and have moxes, 4/5 mana isn't that hard to reach.


What I would really like tho is to have supreme verdict but that would require splashing blue instead of red. I thought about back to basics replacing blood moon and then we could have the uncounterable wraths. I'm not sure how much more BM wins over B2B but both are pretty good at hating 3 color decks.

Edit: That would also allow us to play 1 of detention sphere. And personnally I never had much luck with the mountain double-damage charbelcher so I wouldn't miss mountains at all.

[Weapon X]

I run wraths because I want to deal with creatures, not delay them. I laughed at a miracles player when I was playing elves for that reason, all he did was delay what was happening. The next turn was the same combo again. Fetches almost single handedly negate terminus.

B2B vs moon: one shuts of needed colours the other still lets you get a use

[Cpt-Qc]

Yeah, I know the difference but I haven't seen it played much since I came back. I'm mostly wondering if this weakness ends up mattering a lot or not so much.

BM did win me games really easily, but there was also times I couldn't cast it or it came too late anyway. I'm just staying open to the idea of another color since red is not my favorite color. B2B is the only enchantment I know with a similar effect and it's in the right color for some the very powerfull spells that would fit nicely with our plan.

Edit: There's also the other option of leaving BM in and just exchanging 1 mountain for 1 island, DoJ with Verdict and one Oring with Sphere. That doesn't make our manabase worse but it gives us even more options.

[Weapon X]

The difference does matter. That's why I phrased it like I did. One lets a person cast abrupt decay, the other doesn't.

The draw of a splash here is that you never really need that mountain. Adding blue makes you need blue.

[Cpt-Qc]

I have the worst luck when it comes to draws...

Yesterday I made the same great play 2 games in a row (Land Tax x2 triggering every turn for 6 lands out of the deck) and still managed to draw lands 3 turns in a row, followed by 1-2 mox diamonds -_-'
I would have expected to have found something useful with all my lands out of the deck but it ain't that easy when you're doomed! I didn't even get to find a single Scroll Rack all night.

It's not like I could have played better but it's still frustrating.

[kinda]

I have the worst luck when it comes to draws...

Yesterday I made the same great play 2 games in a row (Land Tax x2 triggering every turn for 6 lands out of the deck) and still managed to draw lands 3 turns in a row, followed by 1-2 mox diamonds -_-'
I would have expected to have found something useful with all my lands out of the deck but it ain't that easy when you're doomed! I didn't even get to find a single Scroll Rack all night.

It's not like I could have played better but it's still frustrating.

Play Quinn...we have cookies...and 4 md tops plus tutors.

[Cpt-Qc]

Play Quinn...we have cookies...and 4 md tops plus tutors.

Hmmm cookies....:tongue:

[l33twash0r]

Just curious what you guys think about the following list. One of our local players plays this deck with following list:

4 Land tax
3 scroll rack
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Rest in peace
4 Energy field
2 Back to Basics
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Banishing Light
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Mox Diamond
1 Zuran Orb
4 Orim's Chant
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
11 Plains

SB
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Negate
3 Entreat the Angels
1 Nevermore
1 Pithing Needle
1 Luminarch Ascension
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Supreme Verdic

I think SB has alot of slots on BUG matchups since Miracles hate cards hit this deck too.

[Weapon X]

I do not like non basics with charbelcher unless they are mountains. Every non basic that isn't a mountain decreases the reliability of charbelcher being a kill. I'm also not a fan of sceptre in a format where abrupt decay is a common card. Being 2:1 isn't great.

My only real thought is why there is no jace the mind sculptor in the 75. That to me is the real draw for adding blue.

[kinda]

Looks fun, I've been tempted to splash blue in Quinn for energy field/b2b. Abrupt decay on rip looks like quite a beating and everything seems to be running decay right now though. I'd cut the scepters and an energy field for tops. I'd also fit humility and ensnaring bridge in the 75.

[zenitramleirdag]

what are your thoughts on gideon of the trials

[Weapon X]

Looks cute on paper. Would need to actually play it to determine how good it is. Nahiri is a prime example of this for me. I think the card is bad, but it plays so well in the deck.

[Cpt-Qc]

New Gideon is interesting but unlikely to be playable (at least not in this deck):

1) His emblem can be removed because removing Gideon does make the emblem 100% useless. He also makes yet another target for decay which I don't like for a win-con.
2) He cannot protect himself from more than one source, whereas Ally of Zendikar / Knight-Errant / Nahiri can deal with many threats given a few turns. This makes it doubtful you establish any kind of lock.
3) In this deck, planewalkers should primarily be used as pressure against other slow decks yet his only offensive ability puts him at risk.

It's not like we want to put a win-con out by turn 3, we'd much rather control the board state and later drop a bomb.

[PirateKing]

So I've had a pile that has shifted from Mighty Quinn to Parfait to Landstill and was on its way to becoming Miracles, just in time for the Top ban. So now that there is a massive power vacuum, I was thinking of moving back towards a Parfait build, UWx with a Helm combo finish, maybe even Standstill and Energy Field.

Anybody around to work on this with?

[Cpt-Qc]

So I've had a pile that has shifted from Mighty Quinn to Parfait to Landstill and was on its way to becoming Miracles, just in time for the Top ban. So now that there is a massive power vacuum, I was thinking of moving back towards a Parfait build, UWx with a Helm combo finish, maybe even Standstill and Energy Field.

Anybody around to work on this with?

You sir made my day. I would have prefered terminus to get axed but that fact miracles is no more is fine by me.

[PirateKing]

You sir made my day. I would have prefered terminus to get axed but that fact miracles is no more is fine by me.

I mean, it's fine by me, just seems my deck selection history plays out like a classic Volkswagen commercial :|

The point is I'm not ready to sell my Moat yet, but I'm sure as hell not going to just let a card like that sit in a binder. Plus Parfait was always my favorite of the W/x piles. With DRS decks feeling upwardly mobile, seems Rest in Peace is as good as ever, might as well win with it too. Just not sure if a splash pays off in these uncertain times.

[Weapon X]

Why would you play moat when humility exists?

In all honesty though I feel red is the best splash for the deck. It's the build I champion and has proven itself forbyears

[Icapica]

Why Moat:
1) 1/1 creatures can still be a threat, especially since you'll probably have taken some damage already by the time you get Humility
2) Humility doesn't deal with Batterskull or other equipment
3) Getting both in play is very strong against some decks (such as D&T)

I used to play Quinn (just built it a little over a month ago...) so I guess I'm now looking to switch to Parfait. How are the decks' matchups? Can anyone tell how much playing it differs from playing Quinn?

[Cpt-Qc]

Is quinn even a deck without Top?

[Icapica]

No, that's why I'm thinking about starting to play Parfait.

[Cpt-Qc]

Oh I see, then welcome aboard! I'll tell you what I've learned from my time on the deck.

Let's start with the bad news: it has pretty bad game against aggressive and/or disruptive fast decks like delver and can struggle to stabilize in the face of burn. This makes our worst matchup UR delver as it is both.
Burn can have very good openings but we can usually stabilize before they count to 20, especially after sideboard.

Any creature based deck without counterspell is usually easy for us. I'm thinking specifically of stuff like DnT, Maverick, Goblins, etc. Merfolk should be good too but they can have the nut draw so it can swing both ways. Even TNN isn't a big problem if we can draw decently and/or activate our engine. It goes without saying that any dredge deck is also pretty easy (LED and Manaless Dredge, Lands, Loam). Also, if you're playing blood moon, you might also get a free T2 or T3 win once in a while against any greedy deck like Shardless BUG, Eldrazi, 4c pile.

Other slow/control decks are pretty even but we have a chance to go off "early" since we don't attack life points. I haven't had much success there yet but I guess that's my inability to pilot the deck at it's full potential (control is so much harder than what I'm used to).

I found that even if most combos are supposedly bad MU game 1, it's often fine because people don't know what the deck has in store. Theses games are very dependent on the skill of the combo pilot but once again, combo without counterspell is pretty easy to stop (ANT/TES, Belcher, Elves) and Sneak and Show puts your win-con/hate on the table for you. The only combo that I found truly impossible to beat is UB reanimator because there is nothing you can do to come back from Iona on White and it's backed by counterspell and discard which both. I have not faced BR on this deck yet but I would assume that if you made it past the first turn you should be perfectly fine. I personally play a lot of bears so I can often end combo games without giving them the time to set up and buy time with chant.

[Icapica]

I see. Is there any kind of "stock list" I could start from? I'm thinking about what cards I need to buy to be able to start playing with Parfait. If I can buy the cards quickly, I won't need to skip many Legacy tournaments before I have a deck again. We have on average two Legacy tournaments per week here and I'd like to play as often as possible.

I've played against BR Reanimator many times as Quinn. It felt like a positive matchup, but far from a bye. I had a ton of hate against that deck but there's always a chance that they go nuts on turn 1 and I can't answer. Also Chancellor is very annoying in that deck. Miracles was one deck I never managed to beat, so I'm glad it's gone.

I guess most matchups won't change radically when going from Quinn to Parfait.

[Cpt-Qc]

I did some extensive play-testing and ended up at pretty much the same list as our resident Parfait player save a few cards.

This is the list I have as of now but it might change depending on where the meta goes:

1 Humility
4 Swords to Plowshares
16 Plains
4 Orim's Chant
1 Ghostly Prison
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
3 Mox Diamond
2 Wrath of God
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Zuran Orb
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
2 Mountain
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Day of Judgment
1 Trinisphere
1 Pithing Needle
1 Chrome Mox
1 Isochron Scepter
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 Timely Reinforcements
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 1 Nevermore

I play 1 of Isochron Scepter main instead of Ivory Tower because it's way too good against all decks non-decay and I felt tower was clunky.

[Icapica]

What's Ghostly Prison good against? I didn't play it in Quinn and didn't see others play it either so I'm curious.

Solitary Confinement wasn't played either, but obviously it's much better when you have Land Tax and Scroll Rack. I used to love Ensnaring Bridge in Quinn but I can see why it's nearly useless here.

How much do you get use out of Land Tax typically? I mean there's a lot of decks in Legacy that don't play many lands during the average game.

[PirateKing]

So last night after breaking down Miracles and going through my binders, this is what I have sleeved up now:

3 Tundra
3 Snow-Covered Island
4 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
3 Mox Diamond
2 City of Traitors

4 Land Tax
4 Scroll Rack
3 Rest in Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
3 Enlightened Tutor

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
1 Council's Judgment

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Problems are:
1) I only have 15 blue cards, not enough to support Force of Will. On my way home from work I was going to pick up playsets of Supreme Verdict, Energy Field and Standstill, right now I'm thinking a 2/2 split on Terminus and Supreme Verdict; less 1 Swords to Plowshares and Scroll Rack for 2 Energy Field. That would be 1 short of an ideal 20, but I can't see any other cuts.
2) I'll be keeping silver bullet enchantments in the side, things like Moat and Humility, but also maybe splash red for Blood Moon. Would the Mox Diamonds be enough to support this, or should I include a basic Mountain? Or a dual land?
3) I am bad at Magic and worse at deck building.

This deck is a stupid Frankenstein's Monster, I know. When I built the deck before my backup win condition was Elspeth, Knight-Errant which I loved to attack from behind Moat and Humility, but I feel Jace offers a better planeswalker in general while also winning the game without the need for fancy creatures. I think the blue will help stabilize our draws and the early game and help propel us into the mid-late where the expensive cards like Helm can be played safely.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[zenitramleirdag]

good day Icapica and welcome to the BDI parfait, W/x parfait, or whatever you wanna call it forum :laugh:..seems like you've had experience playing with another mono white/enchantment-based/toolbox/prison style deck so i think you will adjust to this deck just fine..

allow me to share my thoughts since i have different opinions, probably because of different play experiences..

on U/R delver, the problem is their counter magic..but also remember that we have cards in the main that hurts them; ghostly prison, trinisphere, etc..not to mention we're also packing maindeck life gain in the form of ivory tower and zuran orb..also, price of progress is utterly useless against us..things get more interesting postboard since we get to board in timely reinforcements or even genju of the fields(if you're running it.) ...chant helps a lot here to help us force things through or to bait out a counterspell..

on burn, ivory tower and zuran orb are your best friends here, just watch out for sulfuric vortex..it usually kills us if you can't draw into(or tutor for) an oblivion ring..resolving a solitary confinement with a land tax and scroll rack in play is GG against them..if burn ever becomes a problem, a copy of story circle in your 75 is also great..




hi Cpt-Qc, i was looking at your list and i noticed you're running chrome mox, are you sure you didn't mean mox opal?

[zenitramleirdag]

How much do you get use out of Land Tax typically? I mean there's a lot of decks in Legacy that don't play many lands during the average game.

cards like trinisphere, ghostly prison and sometimes path to exile force opponent to play lands..

we have mox diamond(or to a lesser extent wildfield borderpost) to build up our mana base if the opponent stubbornly won't play land..plus zuran orb to manually trigger land tax..

[Weapon X]

@icapica prison is good against any deck that wants to swarm first and foremost. It can also slow down decks like reanimator, infect, etc that really want to use their mana for other things. Consider something like DnT, they basically have to play prison deck that isn't attacking or they just play white weenie and we can deal with both halves easily.

Confinement is your best game one answer to everything regardless of your ability to keep it around. Think of it as a white time walk as sometimes that's all it needs to be. Added benefit is some decks like burn just lose to it.

Land tax. Well I don't know if you've seen my BDI list, but it has two things to help land tax work. Trinisphere and zuran orb are really good and help you trigger things, stall, survive, force people to play your game, etc. Together you make people play more land and force yourself to gain 2 life and trigger land tax. Essentially land tax will always be active if you need it to be.

For the rest TL;DR but I'll work on catching up.

[Cpt-Qc]

What's Ghostly Prison good against? I didn't play it in Quinn and didn't see others play it either so I'm curious.

Solitary Confinement wasn't played either, but obviously it's much better when you have Land Tax and Scroll Rack. I used to love Ensnaring Bridge in Quinn but I can see why it's nearly useless here.

How much do you get use out of Land Tax typically? I mean there's a lot of decks in Legacy that don't play many lands during the average game.

As it was said, prison is okay against pretty much any creature deck but is there especially for swarm ones. Think Belcher or ANT making 10 goblins... fetch prison and they cannot win. Otherwise it helps keep the land count of your opponents up to trigger Land Tax.

[Weapon X]

@pirateking you do not need 4 scroll racks if you're going to commit to blue. Honestly you don't need more then 3 regardless since multiples usually aren't desirable. The quantity is more reflective of not wanting to have to tutor for a rack. Also you would need to decide how heavy on blue you want to be.
4 tundra is an easy starting point and I would probably supplement land tax with tithe. Brainstorm is the only selection card you need in tandem with jace, which is also a win condition. Again I need to mention how blue you want to be as a factor. Going blue means you don't really need the prison element as much since you have access to hard control elements. Daze becomes amazing and you can actually just try to win turn 4. Focusing more on white you will want that tool box of prison elements to get to the late game where you will just win.

I feel kind of word vomity so I'll leave it at that. Feel free to keep asking questions if I wasn't clear enough or didn't actually provide the help you were after.

[zenitramleirdag]

@pirateking you do not need 4 scroll racks if you're going to commit to blue. Honestly you don't need more then 3 regardless since multiples usually aren't desirable. The quantity is more reflective of not wanting to have to tutor for a rack. Also you would need to decide how heavy on blue you want to be.
4 tundra is an easy starting point and I would probably supplement land tax with tithe. Brainstorm is the only selection card you need in tandem with jace, which is also a win condition. Again I need to mention how blue you want to be as a factor. Going blue means you don't really need the prison element as much since you have access to hard control elements. Daze becomes amazing and you can actually just try to win turn 4. Focusing more on white you will want that tool box of prison elements to get to the late game where you will just win.

I feel kind of word vomity so I'll leave it at that. Feel free to keep asking questions if I wasn't clear enough or didn't actually provide the help you were after.

this is very good advice..

[PirateKing]

I feel kind of word vomity so I'll leave it at that. Feel free to keep asking questions if I wasn't clear enough or didn't actually provide the help you were after.

No that's exactly the sentiment that I was getting from my playtesting. I kept tweaking cards between matches, so what sits before me is now:

3 Tundra
3 Snow-Covered Island
4 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
3 Mox Diamond
2 City of Traitors

4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
3 Rest in Peace
2 Energy Field
2 Helm of Obedience
3 Enlightened Tutor

3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Terminus
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Council's Judgment

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

19 blue cards supports an early Force, and I like sitting behind Energy Field while making land drops before putting down Helm with Force backup. So in that regard I'm happy.
The hardest part right now is 8 basics don't support Land Tax as much as I like. Back when it was monoW it was something like 12~14 basics so taxing for 3 lands was the default. I'd like to add more basics, but that would cut either the Mox Diamond or City of Traitors, and the games they've been in play have all been really advantageous; opening Mox Diamond into Land Tax is always fun, and City helped cover casting Jace.
My board right now includes 1 Blood Moon and 2 Wear//Tear as miracle leftovers, I'd like to keep them as they're still relevant, so Mox Diamond helping cover the rogue mana costs is a big draw. But what I'm seeing is inevitably the Tax/Rack engine runs out of gas after 2 or 3 activations, unless I only grab 1 land at a time, really throttling back the power of the combo.

I will look into maybe dropping Ponder and including 3 Daze and +1 Counterspell next.

My fear is this is too much a mashup of UW Landstill and Parfait, and eventually I'll be forced to devote to one to the point of cutting the other. But I haven't given up yet.
Thanks for the help WeaponX.

[Weapon X]

Parfait with blue will function as the old/new/old miracles. The engine is there to keep your hand full of answers first and foremost in that case. This plus is that by winning with rip/helm we don't need to set up miracles we can play reactively until we want to win. That's basically how my bdi list runs just on a different angle.

If I get a chance maybe I'll try to find an old UW list I was working on.

[PirateKing]

Parfait with blue will function as the old/new/old miracles.

That's the dream :\

[Weapon X]

2 tundra
4 strand
4 island
7 plains
2 ancient tomb

4 land tax
2 scroll rack
1 zuran orb
1 jace the mindsculptor
4 brainstorm

3 rest in peace
2 helm of obedience
1 energy field
1 counterspell
1 detention sphere
3 enlightened tutor
3 gitaxian probe
3 daze
4 force of will
1 supreme verdict
4 Mox diamond
3 swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
4 meddling Mage
3 phyrexian revoker
1 elspeth
1 supreme verdict
1 propaganda
1 back to basics
1 pithing needle
1 empyrial plate
1 humility
1 moat


That's the last I have of any record for a UW list. I was brewing a lot at the time so it took a back seat and I never really finished tweaking. There were just some things that seemed mandatory to me that are still present.
The engine should start at 4 tax, 3 rack, 1 zuran orb and be modified from there.
Jace must be present in the main for a win con and as part of the engine.
Some number of daze should be played.
Supreme verdict and detention sphere will be present in the 75.
Energy field will replace solitary confinement if rip/helm is the desired win con.
4 meddling Mage. It's the reason I wanted to play blue.
Control vs prison. I don't want to hose instants I will play.

Hopefully that will help you with your deck building.

[Icapica]

It seems like people expect ANT, Elves and some Delver variants to become very strong now that Miracles is gone. How are those matchups? I'm building a typical W/r Parfait and I'm wondering if I can just basically go with some list posted here earlier.

[Weapon X]

I've played effectively the same list since they unbanned land tax. All those matchups are still fine... creature decks like elves are laughable.

[l33twash0r]

I've played effectively the same list since they unbanned land tax. All those matchups are still fine... creature decks like elves are laughable.

Any sideboarding guide for your list?

[Weapon X]

My bdi list or that UW one I never finished?

[l33twash0r]

My bdi list or that UW one I never finished?



Bdi one

[ParkerLewis]

Bdi one

I'd also be interested in he list itself, too :)

[Weapon X]

”BDI Parfait
4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
2 Wrath Of God
1 Day of Judgement
4 Orim’s Chant
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Zuran Orb
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere
1 Ivory Tower
1 Pithing Needle
3 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal

2 Rest In Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Goblin Charbelcher

2 Mountain
16 Plains

Sideboard
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Aura of Silence
1 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Council's Judgement

So there's the list. As for guide I find that a little trickier. The deck is oddly set up so that I feel it's intuitive. In general you cut dead cards for playable cards. But I know personally I have done some odd sideboarding against people based solely on how games have played out. As an example rip/helm is usually how the deck wins. Against an opponent I had the engine going and ended up winning game one with a fast belcher so I cut belcher game two because it looked like that's how I win. Essentially "opportunity cost" is a bit of a factor here because of enlightened tutor. In the end as long as you know why you're siding something in it is correct. And I guess with that blurb out of the way I'll attempt a short guide.

As a general point siding into creatures is usually the easiest plan against most decks as the deck is very reactive. Creatures give us pressure game two so that we can threaten more angles. Also we blank a lot of cards so still forcing an opponent to need removal can affect their board plan.

Blasts. Naturally anything blue they are probably coming in for

Leyline. Combo is the main reason they are here as sometimes solitary is too slow. They also can come in against decks that want to target us as sometimes you don't want to hide behind confinement. Storm, jace tms, burn, etc

Elspeth. Creature plan especially when moat is still important.

Reinforcements. Life and creatures. A great answer against creatures and fast damage. Burn is the main reason to play this but ok against any creature deck to buy time.

Revoker. Attacking needle that hits different cards. If needle is good, 2 are better especially when you can shut of mana with one.

Baneslayer. An equalizer. Castable life gain that kills most creatures in the format. I great plan against delver strategies. Oddly good against storm if it sees play.

Aura of silence. Storm, enchantress, affinity, taxes, etc. A card that can hate on decks and deal with possible hate on us.

Rip. Just good sometimes you need more. Used to be a leyline of the void to avoid decay but there are so many targets in most cases that makes rip more useful as it does more. Against abrupt decay and graveyard based decks.

Cannonist. "Anti-storm" for the most part. Not great against actual storm but pressures them. Considerable against any deck that wants to play more then 1 spell on any turn.

Nahiri. Removal. That's the main reason to play this. Can potentially find a helm or baneslayer in a pinch. In the end though it's repeatable removal.

Council judgement. Versatile removal. A lot of card types, mainly walkers, can be problematic. This is another answer that is versatile enough to replace any dead card.

Now the tricky bit. What do you cut. Largely it depends what you're up against and how you want to deal with it. This is why it's tricky; you can board to be reactive or proactive against every deck. Do you prison lock storm or race them as an example because that changes the value of your cards. This leads to generic guidelines as nothing is really concrete especially if you can justify your decisions.

For the most part you remove bullets first. If they aren't beating the deck you are against then they aren't bullets in that situation.

Highlander stuff generally comes next. They aren't necessarily bullets but may be present to avoid surgical extraction or meddling Mage effects. 2 wrath vs 1 day as an example. If I'm not getting rid of all 3 then I'm removing the half that gives the slots. Conversely opal is an easy cut as you remove artifacts.

The engine. I will shave off cards here if needed. That's usually based on how hard I may have to work to get it online. Against something like rug delver it's not likely to do much because of their low curve so it can be worth it to downsize. Even still I'm not losing more then 1 tax and 1 rack.

Tutors. The last thing to go if needed. It's related to the engine. Card disadvantage sucks but one tax activation brings parity to those plays easily. The issue comes to the need of silver bullets. We can't tutor for all of the bullets but the engine can find them. Tutor finds the engine when needed.

TL;DR well, there are words there now. Hope that is somewhat helpful. I can always try something else if that's not good enough.

[l33twash0r]

Why Oblivion Ring over stuff like Banishing Light?

[Weapon X]

Corner cases really. You can target and respond to the o ring trigger for permanent solutions. You can target your own stuff if needed as well.

[zenitramleirdag]

@ Weapon X
i noticed you cut a copy of timely reinforcements for an aura of silence..

[Weapon X]

I believe I actually cut a reinforcements for the revoker. I haven't needed reinforcements as much lately.

[Cpt-Qc]

With the slower decks on the decline, I'm thinking of cutting my 2 planewalkers altogether... I'm thinking Leyline of Sanctity or maybe even Aegis of the gods. I always liked this dude!

In regards to faster decks like Burn and combo, I guess Leyline is better so It's probably what I'll be going to...

[zenitramleirdag]

With the slower decks on the decline, I'm thinking of cutting my 2 planewalkers altogether... I'm thinking Leyline of Sanctity or maybe even Aegis of the gods. I always liked this dude!

In regards to faster decks like Burn and combo, I guess Leyline is better so It's probably what I'll be going to...

he's really a great take on True Believer, though i wish he's an artifact or enchantment so he can be tutored..against storm-based combo, i prefer cannonist..if i am expecting a lot of burn, i'd most likely go for story circle instead..

[Cpt-Qc]

he's really a great take on True Believer, though i wish he's an artifact or enchantment so he can be tutored..against storm-based combo, i prefer cannonist..if i am expecting a lot of burn, i'd most likely go for story circle instead..

Aegis of the gods IS an enchantment so it can be tutored with etutor.

[zenitramleirdag]

Aegis of the gods IS an enchantment so it can be tutored with etutor.

ooops! ha ha ha..you're right! i didn't notice that..my apologies.. :laugh:

[Weapon X]

I found him a little too fragile when I first used him and the potential free leyline just pushed him out for me.

[Cpt-Qc]

I've been having such a hard time against counterspells lately that I'm considering Defense Grid in the board. Have you ever tried it?

I feel it barely hinders us while it stops a lot of delver/control decks from deploying a threat and protecting themselves at the same time.

[Weapon X]

I believe it morphed into chant and trinisphere for me. Against a lot of those decks just making a spell cost 3 is an effective counter and that has value against a lot of decks. If you see a lot of blue it could be better by not affecting your spells though.

[Cpt-Qc]

Unfortunately I do see a lot of blue and Trinisphere usually triggers an instant Force. With a 2 drop it's less likely they'll be inclined to force it (I noticed people usually force the 3+ cc). This then makes all the 3-4 lock pieces much easier to jam.

I'm not going to drop 3-sphere but I'll try the extra tax effect in the board since it is obviously terrible against combo decks and thus cannot be maindecked.

[Weapon X]

Against control it's just another must counter spell which is conveniently where chant can be a bit worse.

[zenitramleirdag]

do you guys side out your chants against bug or do we leave them in? my take would be to side out a copy or two to make room for REB and/or pyro, they can kill/counter stryx, leovold, snapcaster and sometimes even jace; it also gives us a way to fight their counterspells..

[Weapon X]

I love chant, it's underrated and also a way to fight counterspell and a host of other things. That said I have cut some copies.

[zenitramleirdag]

finally played against maverick, i would say that the best move they have against us is having a gadock teeg in play backed up by a mother of runes..but other than that, i think the match is very well in our favor..many list i've been seeing lately don't even run any spot discard or abrupt decay in the main..

[Cpt-Qc]

finally played against maverick, i would say that the best move they have against us is having a gadock teeg in play backed up by a mother of runes..but other than that, i think the match is very well in our favor..many list i've been seeing lately don't even run any spot discard or abrupt decay in the main..

Maverick type decks (Non-blue and/or fair) is exactly what we want to face because our win ratio should be close to 80%. Even a two creature combo doesn't do much since you can get through it or, if you're playing scepter like I am, soft-lock them out with Ochant.

[Cpt-Qc]

Interesting card from the spoilers:

Oketra's Last Mercy
1WW
Sorcery
Your life total becomes equal to your starting life total. Lands you control don't untap during your next untap step.

It's a bit risky since you have to be low to make full use of it but it's still a powerful card.

[Weapon X]

Good for griselbrand style storm decks. Seems very underwhelming for parfait.

[zenitramleirdag]

Interesting card from the spoilers:

Oketra's Last Mercy
1WW
Sorcery
Your life total becomes equal to your starting life total. Lands you control don't untap during your next untap step.

It's a bit risky since you have to be low to make full use of it but it's still a powerful card.

burn looks like the kind of match-up where this would shine..though we already have pulse of the fields or better yet, timely reinforcements if we need this kind of effect..the only time this would be better than pulse or timely against burn is when there's a sulfuric vortex in play..i would still play timely reinforcements over this nonetheless..

[zenitramleirdag]

I'm looking at solemnity..do you guys think its worthwhile? it seems good against infect, Chalice and Aether Vial can't get counters, and so on.....

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/hour-of-devastation/28946-solemnity

[Cpt-Qc]

I'm looking at solemnity..do you guys think its worthwhile? it seems good against infect, Chalice and Aether Vial can't get counters, and so on.....

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/hour-of-devastation/28946-solemnity

It might be alright as a sideboard card but your meta would have to have quite a few of infecters. It does nothing against chalice because by the time you can cast it it's already too late. Plus we already have chalice removal maindeck so we don't care too much. It does stop infect, but so does a plethora of other cards, including humility and/or blood moon. Needless to say we don't care about Marit Lage because gaining our opponent life/basic land is meaningless vs RIP/Helm.

On another note, I'm thinking of buying Tundras to try a UW version. I feel like mono W is more tuned to fight non-blue decks whereas UW would be better against blue decks. It also wouldn't hurt to make my opponents think I'm playing either version so that they will never know what I'm on... @Weapon X - Out of curiosity, why did you drop U back then?

[rufus]

Good for griselbrand style storm decks. Seems very underwhelming for parfait.

I'm more curious about Leave//Chance, but that's probably much to mana intensive.

[Ninjastill]

It might be alright as a sideboard card but your meta would have to have quite a few of infecters. It does nothing against chalice because by the time you can cast it it's already too late. Plus we already have chalice removal maindeck so we don't care too much. It does stop infect, but so does a plethora of other cards, including humility and/or blood moon. Needless to say we don't care about Marit Lage because gaining our opponent life/basic land is meaningless vs RIP/Helm.

On another note, I'm thinking of buying Tundras to try a UW version. I feel like mono W is more tuned to fight non-blue decks whereas UW would be better against blue decks. It also wouldn't hurt to make my opponents think I'm playing either version so that they will never know what I'm on... @Weapon X - Out of curiosity, why did you drop U back then?

So I've been playing with the UW version that I created it, Ive tweaked it a lot and still have been tweaking it and its been a blast. Im still trying to shore up the delver matchup but besides that I feel like I have game vs a lot of decks. Here is my current 75

//Artifact (11)
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Isochron Scepter
4 Mox Diamond
3 Scroll Rack
1 Zuran Orb

//Enchantment (17)
2 Back to Basics
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Detention Sphere
3 Energy Field
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Journey to Nowhere
4 Land Tax
4 Rest in Peace

//Instant (10)
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Orim's Chant
3 Swords to Plowshares

//Planeswalker (1)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Sorcery (2)
2 Supreme Verdict

//Land (18)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
11 Plains

SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Nevermore
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Powder Keg
SB: 1 Propaganda
SB: 1 Runed Halo
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict

[Weapon X]

Why no oblivion ring/more detention spheres? Those cards are too versatile not to play, especially in a deck that can tutor for them.

[Ninjastill]

Why no oblivion ring/more detention spheres? Those cards are too versatile not to play, especially in a deck that can tutor for them.


Thanks for the reply! and I did about 5+ days of vigorous testing and felt that too many O-ring effects were just lackluster at times, so as for the moment I'm doing 1 Journey and 1 D-Sphere but I may add an O-Ring to the sideboard as another catch all, Honestly I went to 2 Powder Keg in the sideboard and part of me wants 1 in the main because of how great it is vs Delver and other aggressive decks

[Cpt-Qc]

I kinda want to try a 1 of Prophyry Nodes replacing a third Wrath... It could help stabilize earlier like cast it on T3 and they won't start playing creatures again till T6 probably.

Also it's tutorable unlike wraths.

[Weapon X]

How does nodes help stabilize? If they have one creature it kills it then dies. If they have many it's not dealing with what needs to be dealt with.

[Ninjastill]

I kinda want to try a 1 of Prophyry Nodes replacing a third Wrath... It could help stabilize earlier like cast it on T3 and they won't start playing creatures again till T6 probably.

Also it's tutorable unlike wraths.

Not sure if nodes it what you want, if you play blue white you can just play supreme verdict which is just better

[Cpt-Qc]

Oh I'm not saying it's the best, I'm just saying it looks like a fun of. It's just that I wasn't aware such a card existed until this week when someone played it at my weekly.

The optimal moment to play nodes is when they have 2 creatures out meaning they're "engaged" in a plan but it's not too late to matter. Then again, just playing 1 probably doesn't do much to support that plan.
Even tho it's a bad topdeck I think it could be playable but we'd need to maindeck many or waste a tutor to ensure we have it early...

[Weapon X]

I've played drop of honey in enchantress long ago because at worst it is still draw a card there. In parfait it's very narrow which makes it bad for us. If it lines up with your meta that's different, but it doesn't carry the versatility you want in a card choice for us otherwise.

[Sereon]

Yo fellow Parfait worshippers!

Ill be playing around with UW in the near future. My current list;

4 Land Tax
3 Rest in Peace
2 Detention Sphere
1 Back to Basics
1 Energy Field

2 Supreme Verdict

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Orim’s Chant

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Mox Diamond
3 Scroll Rack
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Zuran Orb
1 Pithing Needle

9 Plains
4 Island
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand

My card choices are 1/3 cute, 1/3 backed-up by theory and 1/3 experimental :D. It is possibly outright stupid to both splash blue and keep chants in instead of packing more reactive blue spells. In my opinion chant is just so damn good and ill start with this list and see where it takes me. Any obvious must-haves i've missed? SB is going back and forth but core cards are 4 Meddling Mage and at least 2 Revokers. Having no creatures main I love to pack a SB full of em. The draw to blue personally comes from Daze which is just super cute and the theory of backing up an early Tax while also enabling it does seem quite good. Jace seems like a descent secondary win-con and Meddling Mages are fantastic imo, played quite a few fringe decks in my days aswell as straight UW blade and the Meddling Mages has always been with me and always been great.

[Ninjastill]

Yo fellow Parfait worshippers!

Ill be playing around with UW in the near future. My current list;

4 Land Tax
3 Rest in Peace
2 Detention Sphere
1 Back to Basics
1 Energy Field

2 Supreme Verdict

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Orim’s Chant

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Mox Diamond
3 Scroll Rack
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Zuran Orb
1 Pithing Needle

9 Plains
4 Island
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand

My card choices are 1/3 cute, 1/3 backed-up by theory and 1/3 experimental :D. It is possibly outright stupid to both splash blue and keep chants in instead of packing more reactive blue spells. In my opinion chant is just so damn good and ill start with this list and see where it takes me. Any obvious must-haves i've missed? SB is going back and forth but core cards are 4 Meddling Mage and at least 2 Revokers. Having no creatures main I love to pack a SB full of em. The draw to blue personally comes from Daze which is just super cute and the theory of backing up an early Tax while also enabling it does seem quite good. Jace seems like a descent secondary win-con and Meddling Mages are fantastic imo, played quite a few fringe decks in my days aswell as straight UW blade and the Meddling Mages has always been with me and always been great.

Hey man So if you scroll up I am running UW as well! your's is different than mine as Im running no brainstorm or daze's. So I cant comment too much because if your list is working then thats great, not the biggest fan of Daze because without a Land tax it kinda hurt us as our curve is mostly 2-3 drops. I would however make space for 1-2+ more Energy Field as i found it gives you enough time to stall like if they counter the first one, you always can tutor for another etc, otherwise I like the 2 verdict as its always great to have. And for your sideboard make sure you have 1-2 more win con's vs heavy control decks or DnT you want more win con's that they have to deal with!

[Sereon]

Hey man So if you scroll up I am running UW as well! your's is different than mine as Im running no brainstorm or daze's. So I cant comment too much because if your list is working then thats great, not the biggest fan of Daze because without a Land tax it kinda hurt us as our curve is mostly 2-3 drops. I would however make space for 1-2+ more Energy Field as i found it gives you enough time to stall like if they counter the first one, you always can tutor for another etc, otherwise I like the 2 verdict as its always great to have. And for your sideboard make sure you have 1-2 more win con's vs heavy control decks or DnT you want more win con's that they have to deal with!

Yea I've seen your list and read most of this thread. Gonna try daze at a couple of weeklys before I decide what I think, if I don't like it I feel like I might lean towards Wr tax instead. As for sideboard and wincons I'm running second have along with Elspeth and a Gideon. I'll test with more energy fields, you make a good point there.

[Sereon]

Played a weekly at my LGS yesterday with the list I posted above -1 energy field, -needle main +1 humility, + ghostly prison since I had not yet received my recently bought field. I haven't held a deck for about a year so the rust was real (also no meaningful experience with parfait)...

M1: Infect 0-2
I was basically 1 turn behind both games, he had all the permission and had nexus both games while I struggled to find either a proactive answer or instant-speed removal.

M2: Eldrazi 2-0
This felt very one-sided. Basically D-sphere on a dude followed by tutor->B2B won game 1.

Game 2 was a bit longer but I resolved B2B turn 2 and Humility turn 3. I think i comboed him on turn 8-ish.


M3: Reanimator/storm 2-0
Im playing against an unknown deck but I noticed this guy had finished previous matches very fast so I was under the impression he was not playing fair. This led me to play mox, plains into RiP on the play t1. He played a thoughtseize turn 2, I chanted his turn 3 and 4, won with helm on my turn 5.

Game two was not super exciting either. He reanimated Griselbrand on his turn two. I Sphered it when he passed. Two turns later he hardcast a grave titan. I played a supreme verdict and followed up with an elspeth the turn after. He had no answers.


M4: Goblins 2-1
This guy is very experienced, has played goblins forever and basically attends all weeklys, super nice guy aswell. Game 1 consists of me playing tax turn 1, he plays a vial and refuses to play enough lands to activate my tax, so I e-tutor for zuran orb. I plow an early lackey and proceed to resolve ghostly prison and a couple of turns later humility. It takes a while but I manage to find the combo after 2-3 scroll racks on 8ish.

Game two was fairly back and forth early turns. Of course he was on the play and went for a vial. I sworded an early lackey and proceeded to play a revoker on vial. He played a scrapper on revoker on turn 4 and started beating with a chieftain + some smaller dudes. I played a verdict and the turn after another revoker on vial. He found another scrapper and a krenko and correctly therapied my last supreme verdict which ended the game quickly.

Game three I boarded out the revokers, it felt like he had too many answers and that I should focus on resolving strong enchantments and possibly planeswalkers. So i boarded in Elspeth and Gideon. Can't rebmember the details here but he resolved a chalice on 1 on his turn 2 which never left the board and stranded plow+2BS in my hand. I did however resolve a land tax before this and later a scroll rack. He chaliced for 3 aswell to deny D-sphere on the chalice for 1 and I played a humility shortly after that. The enchantment bought me enough time along with ghostly prison to play a gideon, wipe the board and a couple of turns later I added an espeth to the board which made my opponent concede. Definetly the most fun match of the day.

The deck felt solid, can't really comment card choices yet. The dazes were not good enough for me to feel convinced I should play them, but not bad enough to cut yet either. I might try the Wr version soon, it looks very good on paper and I'm not sure blue is good enough to motivate. Granted, the can't be counter on verdict didn't matter yesterday so I need to test more vs blue creature-based decks before I make up my mind.

Kind regards from Sweden.

[Ninjastill]

The LGS I play at has a variety of decks and is usually very competitive, we played 4 rounds tonight and I went undefeated in Matches :)

Round 1 vs U/R Delver

Game 1: I sword his t1 Delver, he lands a swiftspear and chip's away he daze's a scroll rack but I land a rest in peace and Energy Field and he scoops with no way of removing it.

Game 2: I cast Orim's chant which he counter's (probably a mistake) and I play powder keg, he chips away with swiftspear and I resolve Rip/Field again with the help of Orim's chant and show him the helm in hand.

Sideboarding I bring in Powder keg's and Circle of protection red since I know he is on the burn heavy route and take out Back to Basics, and a Detention Sphere. Overall it felt like a really easy matchup since they can't board into any enchantment hate.

Round 2 vs 4C Loam

Game 1: He resolves a t1 Chalice followed by a Gaddock Teeg and a KOTR, I journey the Knight which he finds a decay for a few turns later and I'm able to slam Energy Field Followed by RIP a few turns later, we go draw go for a bit, and I test the water's and play Enlightened Tutor through his chalice, luckily he misses the trigger and I get Detention Sphere which Exiles his Liliana he just had cast. After realizing he missed the trigger I decided to go for Swords on his Teeg which he let happen then play Helm and win.

Game 2: He has Thalia, into Teeg, into KOTR and I was able to stall with RIP/Field but Lilly ultimate got their and that was all she wrote.

Game 3: He keep's a slow hand and I have helm/field/rip in hand with Land tax off a mox on t1 was pretty easy from their on out.

Round 3 vs Red White Painter

Game 1: I mulligan to a no lander with 2 mox's an E Tutor, 2 Land Tax and Swords to Plowshares, I decide to keep and see a plains off the top so I feel like I still have some game. He goes t1 Painter, I attempt to Swords, he exile's spirit guide and blasts it. He plays grind stone 2 turns later and I didn't have an answer.

Game 2: We did some durdling but I locked him out with a turn 3 Isochron Scepter/Chant and he conceded after I told him I planned on using it on his upkeep every turn

Game 3: He got flooded, I resolved a Jace along with Scroll rack which let me see a lot of cards and was able to Chant lock him with Scepter again until i got helm in play.

Round 4 - Intentional Draw but we decided to play anyway! He was on UG 12 Post

Game 1: I am not sure what he's on after seeing a lot of tropical islands and cantrips, I play rest in peace and it resolves, he plays show and tell the next turn I put in Helm and he puts in prime time...I win that game with 1 mana up :D.

Game 2: He has a nice ramped start into prime time that get's swords, I get him with Chant Lock after he had to waste his FOW on a back to basics when he was tapped out.

Overall the deck performed really well as I faced all pretty competitive decks, I was glad I didn't run into Czech Pile or High tide which were in the room but still felt very well equipped to deal with either, I still switch a lot of 1 of's every week like Ghostly Prison, Zuran, and Luminarch. But I don't think I'll ever get bored of Scroll Racking for 6 and putting back 6 lands off a land tax to draw 6 fresh cards :D.

[Ninjastill]

Played a weekly at my LGS yesterday with the list I posted above -1 energy field, -needle main +1 humility, + ghostly prison since I had not yet received my recently bought field. I haven't held a deck for about a year so the rust was real (also no meaningful experience with parfait)...

M1: Infect 0-2
I was basically 1 turn behind both games, he had all the permission and had nexus both games while I struggled to find either a proactive answer or instant-speed removal.

M2: Eldrazi 2-0
This felt very one-sided. Basically D-sphere on a dude followed by tutor->B2B won game 1.

Game 2 was a bit longer but I resolved B2B turn 2 and Humility turn 3. I think i comboed him on turn 8-ish.


M3: Reanimator/storm 2-0
Im playing against an unknown deck but I noticed this guy had finished previous matches very fast so I was under the impression he was not playing fair. This led me to play mox, plains into RiP on the play t1. He played a thoughtseize turn 2, I chanted his turn 3 and 4, won with helm on my turn 5.

Game two was not super exciting either. He reanimated Griselbrand on his turn two. I Sphered it when he passed. Two turns later he hardcast a grave titan. I played a supreme verdict and followed up with an elspeth the turn after. He had no answers.


M4: Goblins 2-1
This guy is very experienced, has played goblins forever and basically attends all weeklys, super nice guy aswell. Game 1 consists of me playing tax turn 1, he plays a vial and refuses to play enough lands to activate my tax, so I e-tutor for zuran orb. I plow an early lackey and proceed to resolve ghostly prison and a couple of turns later humility. It takes a while but I manage to find the combo after 2-3 scroll racks on 8ish.

Game two was fairly back and forth early turns. Of course he was on the play and went for a vial. I sworded an early lackey and proceeded to play a revoker on vial. He played a scrapper on revoker on turn 4 and started beating with a chieftain + some smaller dudes. I played a verdict and the turn after another revoker on vial. He found another scrapper and a krenko and correctly therapied my last supreme verdict which ended the game quickly.

Game three I boarded out the revokers, it felt like he had too many answers and that I should focus on resolving strong enchantments and possibly planeswalkers. So i boarded in Elspeth and Gideon. Can't rebmember the details here but he resolved a chalice on 1 on his turn 2 which never left the board and stranded plow+2BS in my hand. I did however resolve a land tax before this and later a scroll rack. He chaliced for 3 aswell to deny D-sphere on the chalice for 1 and I played a humility shortly after that. The enchantment bought me enough time along with ghostly prison to play a gideon, wipe the board and a couple of turns later I added an espeth to the board which made my opponent concede. Definetly the most fun match of the day.

The deck felt solid, can't really comment card choices yet. The dazes were not good enough for me to feel convinced I should play them, but not bad enough to cut yet either. I might try the Wr version soon, it looks very good on paper and I'm not sure blue is good enough to motivate. Granted, the can't be counter on verdict didn't matter yesterday so I need to test more vs blue creature-based decks before I make up my mind.

Kind regards from Sweden.

Congrats on your finish, infect is a rough match up we need either an early swords and hope it doesn't get forced or an early energy field, Keg's out of the sideboard are great if you have them as it blows up inkmoth as well, and needle etc.

[Ninjastill]

So Has anyone tested Web of Inertia in blue/white? Seems really solid with RIP as it basically says creature's cant attack you def gonna try it in place of ghostly prison during the next event

[kombatkiwi]

So Has anyone tested Web of Inertia in blue/white? Seems really solid with RIP as it basically says creature's cant attack you def gonna try it in place of ghostly prison during the next event

Why would you ever use this instead of Energy Field

[Ninjastill]

Why would you ever use this instead of Energy Field

Im not arguing that it is better than Field, but its very good vs Emrakul decks, just would seem fine as a 1 of

[kombatkiwi]

Im not arguing that it is better than Field, but its very good vs Emrakul decks, just would seem fine as a 1 of

Oh yeah I guess that makes sense. It sill feels iffy needing a Rip for your ghostly prison to work and I think playing EField + Ghostly Prison + This Thing might be too many slots.

[Ninjastill]

Oh yeah I guess that makes sense. It sill feels iffy needing a Rip for your ghostly prison to work and I think playing EField + Ghostly Prison + This Thing might be too many slots.

I was planning on dropping Ghostly Prison for Web and just playing it as a 1 of

[PirateKing]

The problem I was having with the UW version and Energy Field, and the same for considering Web of Inertia is that both only prevent combat to you. My backup win condition were planeswalkers like Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Elspeth, Knight-Errant, and they were leaned on pretty regularly when Helm wasn't showing up. Not being able to prevent deadly swings to them was my primary gripe with Energy Field and Web of Inertia has the same problem.

[Weapon X]

The purpose of solitary confinement, and in this case energy field, is to buy time when needed with the upside of just beating some decks on their own.

Between 4 tutors, X copies of a given card, and the parfait engine you mostly just need to survive long enough to win before you come across your missing piece. This also highlights why playing as many basics as you can is desirable as every tax activation is a recall that thins your deck and otherwise increases your threat density.

[Ninjastill]

The purpose of solitary confinement, and in this case energy field, is to buy time when needed with the upside of just beating some decks on their own.

Between 4 tutors, X copies of a given card, and the parfait engine you mostly just need to survive long enough to win before you come across your missing piece. This also highlights why playing as many basics as you can is desirable as every tax activation is a recall that thins your deck and otherwise increases your threat density.

I cant tell if your arguing for blue white or dismissing it haha

[Weapon X]

Neither. Illustrating that perhaps pirate king is looking at those cards the wrong way.

[PirateKing]

Do not get me wrong, When Energy Field worked, it was great. But it's not enough of a lock to just play the long game. Being just one Abrupt Decay away from losing it all was an awful feeling. My comment was just that Web of Inertia doesn't offer any more. Yeah it shuts off Emrakul, but you're wide open to Burn, and for +1 CMC it's a difficult sell. "Buying time" worked out less than when it fell apart. CounterTop disrupted their attempts to find the removal, we don't have that luxury. Against Burn it just won the game, awesome. Other times it did get me to a turn to Rip/Helm a victory. But the largest single instance of the experience with the card is it didn't do enough for long enough.

So I'm fine with Energy Field, it's a useful interaction that costs 4 over two cards, versus Moat that just costs 4. So it's good parity. If Web of Inertia cost more but did more, then I'd be more on board.

[Ninjastill]

Quick Tourney report!

Went 2-2 at FNM tonight, my LGS is very competitive all good decks last week went 4-0 had good matchups, this week not so much but had some fun games and learned I want to change a few cards.

Round 1 vs DnT - I won this in 2, as he saw no flickerwisp's to get him out of field/rip lock before helm came down to ruin the fun, same story game 2.

Round 2 vs Red/white Painter - I beat him last week, but this week he had all the answers and I kept a no lander game 3 on the draw with land tax, mox, e-tutor, needle, swords, and RIP...never saw a land he turn 2'd Chandra and other good cards TLDR: Mull that hand :D

Round 3 vs High Tide - Game 1 I have like 15 dead cards and don't have much of a chance, game 2 I won on the back of Canonist and Rip, game 3 he had a very nutty hand and I didnt have much interaction after a mull to 6.

Round 4 vs BUG Leovold - Played against a very skilled opponent and was expecting this to be a grindy matchup, but Land tax Card Adv + RIP was enough to slow him down and I ended up winning in 2.


Overall cards I want to replace as game after game they feel lackluster are... Zuran orb/Ghostly Prison have not been doing much for me, So I may add 1 Pithing needle to the main, and try 1 Web Of inertia in Prison's spot. Overall deck was still sweet and still feel like its a very competitive deck!

[Ninjastill]

Also some other cards I was looking at adding to help our Combo matchup was "In The Eye of Chaos" seems like high tide especially but combo decks even very controlling decks would struggle against this card as a MUST counter.

[Ninjastill]

Went 2-1 at my LGS this week, sadly only 6 showed up which is a bit unusual. Played against Czech Pile, BUG Delver and Eldrazi & Taxes

2-1 vs Czech Pile

Quick Notes: Rip was amazing, was able to grind a lot with scroll rack and Jace both games

1-2 vs BUG Delver

I kept a really sketchy 7 card hand with 1 land STP 3 RIP Mox and Energy Field didnt see a land :), game 2 i destroyed him, game 3 he had an answer for everything sadly

2-0 vs Eldrazi & Taxes

Was easy Game 1 he has no answers for Rip/Field or Rip/Inertie, Game 2 went similar he only saw one piece of hate

Updated List Below!

//Artifact (11)
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Meekstone
4 Mox Diamond
3 Scroll Rack

//Enchantment (18)
1 Back to Basics
1 Detention Sphere
3 Energy Field
1 In the Eye of Chaos
1 Journey to Nowhere
4 Land Tax
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Rest in Peace
1 Web of Inertia

//Instant (10)
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Orim's Chant
3 Swords to Plowshares

//Planeswalker (1)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Sorcery (2)
2 Supreme Verdict

//Land (18)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
11 Plains

SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Mana Maze
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Nevermore
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Powder Keg

[Cpt-Qc]

Went 2-1 at my LGS this week, sadly only 6 showed up which is a bit unusual. Played against Czech Pile, BUG Delver and Eldrazi & Taxes

2-1 vs Czech Pile

Quick Notes: Rip was amazing, was able to grind a lot with scroll rack and Jace both games

1-2 vs BUG Delver

I kept a really sketchy 7 card hand with 1 land STP 3 RIP Mox and Energy Field didnt see a land :), game 2 i destroyed him, game 3 he had an answer for everything sadly

2-0 vs Eldrazi & Taxes

Was easy Game 1 he has no answers for Rip/Field or Rip/Inertie, Game 2 went similar he only saw one piece of hate

Updated List Below!

//Artifact (11)
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Meekstone
4 Mox Diamond
3 Scroll Rack

//Enchantment (18)
1 Back to Basics
1 Detention Sphere
3 Energy Field
1 In the Eye of Chaos
1 Journey to Nowhere
4 Land Tax
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Rest in Peace
1 Web of Inertia

//Instant (10)
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Orim's Chant
3 Swords to Plowshares

//Planeswalker (1)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Sorcery (2)
2 Supreme Verdict

//Land (18)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
11 Plains

SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Mana Maze
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Nevermore
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Powder Keg

Wouldn't you be better to drop Isochron Scepter since it does the same thing as Energy Field (gives you more time and is sometimes a win on it's own)? If I was playing blue I certainly wouldn't play it since it's weak to decay, is potentially card disadvantage and field is more synergistic with the 4 RIP you're playing. That could also give you room for more detention spheres (I would play at least 2).

[Ninjastill]

Wouldn't you be better to drop Isochron Scepter since it does the same thing as Energy Field (gives you more time and is sometimes a win on it's own)? If I was playing blue I certainly wouldn't play it since it's weak to decay, is potentially card disadvantage and field is more synergistic with the 4 RIP you're playing. That could also give you room for more detention spheres (I would play at least 2).

So I've had a lot of free wins with scepter chant, or sometimes against decks that don't play decay I'll go for Scepter E tutor, and it can simply win me the game so as a 1 of its fine. Against Czech and bug decks I board it out. The spots I'm unhappy with or not impressed with so far are meekstone and journey to nowhere sometimes is lackluster. Overall in paper I'm 11-4 with my deck but I'm still tweaking it a lot.

[Ninjastill]

Also some cards I want to test is adding 1 scrubland and adding a Chains of Mephistophles to the sideboard! and also testing Trade Routes now!

[hjalte]

Did you consider Counterbalance in the SB?
With both Jace and Scroll Rack you are able to somewhat reliable control what is on top.

[Ninjastill]

Did you consider Counterbalance in the SB?
With both Jace and Scroll Rack you are able to somewhat reliable control what is on top.

In Theory i think Counterbalance is sweet but is too slow and against some decks you don't care to much about countering spells you want to play a more proactive prison piece then one you need to set up with scroll rack for, if TOP was still legal then of course this deck would play it, but then it would just be a worse miracles deck haha

[Weapon X]

I played chains in my black splash. It's a powerful card

[Ninjastill]

I played chains in my black splash. It's a powerful card

Been testing Trade Routes, and Defense Grid main. So far when I had tax + trade routes online it was incredible. Grid made op play more lands in order to interact, this is my list as of now




// 11 Artifact
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Isochron Scepter
4 Mox Diamond
3 Scroll Rack
1 Defense Grid

// 18 Enchantment
3 Energy Field
4 Land Tax
4 Rest in Peace
1 Detention Sphere
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 In the Eye of Chaos
1 Web of Inertia
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Trade Routes
1 Chains of Mephistopheles

// 10 Instant
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Orim's Chant
3 Swords to Plowshares

// 18 Land
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
10 Plains
1 Scrubland

// 1 Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 2 Sorcery
2 Supreme Verdict


// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Powder Keg
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Nevermore
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Mana Maze
SB: 1 Karmic Justice
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels



Not sure if its correct to play Scrubland or swamp still not sure which is better.

[dog_koko]

Why would you play Swords to Plowshares instead of Path to Exile?

[Ninjastill]

Why would you play Swords to Plowshares instead of Path to Exile?

1) We don't care about life
2) even though path is a decent combo with land tax, without a land tax allowing an opponent to ramp into a t2 TNN or jace on turn 3 is not what we want. I would rather have a kill spell with no drawback like swords then path

[jubeininja69]

Why would you play Swords to Plowshares instead of Path to Exile?

i play with both or one another. sometimes 2 paths and 2 swords.

path give them tempo and swords give them life. there are match ups where this matters.

[Ninjastill]

i play with both or one another. sometimes 2 paths and 2 swords.

path give them tempo and swords give them life. there are match ups where this matters.

What matchup does life matter for them, unless your playing a different version that relies on creatures

[jubeininja69]

What matchup does life matter for them, unless your playing a different version that relies on creatures

i encounter a lot of depths, lands, reanimator and sneak and show in my meta. i just don't like them getting an extra grislebrand activations or drawing more cards using sylvan library after i sword the marit lage.

i'm thinking maybe i go with 3 swords and 1 path if my meta changes.

[Cpt-Qc]

i encounter a lot of depths, lands, reanimator and sneak and show in my meta. i just don't like them getting an extra grislebrand activations or drawing more cards using sylvan library after i sword the marit lage.

i'm thinking maybe i go with 3 swords and 1 path if my meta changes.

Although your concerns are somewhat valid, once Griselbrand has been activated the game is already over 95% of the time (I also play reanimator variants so I learned over time that the 7/7 lifelink body is just flavor text. The real card is yawgmoth's.)

As for Depths/Stage decks, you have plenty of ways to get rid of a library and even then, giving them more life isn't really an issue since we won't be killing those decks with damage anyway.

I'd rather keep them low on basics so that they get caught pants down by Blood Moon. The only real advantage to Path would be to activate Land Tax but I found that my opponents rarely play around it anyway. They do not seem to care that I draw 4 cards a turn until I get scroll rack in, which perfectly suits me.

[Weapon X]

I find people have greedy manabases and as a result can't find a basic land so path has no drawback. Just look in this thread as proof, I think I'm the only person here who is trying to avoid non basics in the deck.

@ninjastill: why are you killing some goober turn 1? Are you asking yourself that question when you have a path in hand? I'm wondering if that is factoring into how you evaluate path here?

[zenitramleirdag]

[QUOTE=jubeininja69;1022410

i'm thinking maybe i go with 3 swords and 1 path if my meta changes.[/QUOTE]

i actually like this configuration..

[Pelikanudo]

Hi Parfait Troopers!

long time I don't post here...
I am wondering if my Parfait Trini Catalism version (link in footer) would be in this meta good (now c.b. is out...) or if you have a fun/good list to try!
Weapon X, any new?

I am going to stick with Parfait for some time... it is like playing combo but backwards...

EDIT: I'll disagree all days on the week on Path vs Swords. I absolutly prefer Swords. But that's my opinion!

[Weapon X]

No new lists really from me. I built my list when tax was unbanned and it's been good since then. The most changes that need to be made are sideboard as meta changes so you can get better lasers.

[Cpt-Qc]

There's a few changes I want to test and those include playing a third RIP maindeck (between the drs, loam, reanimator and snapcaster decks it's never truly dead).

I'd also like to lower the mana curve somehow because playing 7x 4drops can be hard at times with so few lands. Keeping us off land tax is a very valid way to mana screw us.

Edit: Also I'm thinking of adding a second Moon or 3Ball in the side. Those care are just so powerful that getting one counterspelled makes me sad so I'd like to have a backup G2-3.

[Cpt-Qc]

I just found out there is a new Wrath in Ixalan: Settlle the Wreckage, 2WW.

The downsides: It only takes care of attacking creatures.
The upsides: It's instant speed AND exiles instead of destroying AND fuels land tax by giving basic lands . At 4 mana you don't care about giving your opponent lands anymore and they probably don't have any left their deck anyway :eek:

I still think WoG is better for getting rid of all utility creatures/mana dorks but the surprise of instant speed wrath isn't to be taken lightly.

[Pelikanudo]

No new lists really from me. I built my list when tax was unbanned and it's been good since then. The most changes that need to be made are sideboard as meta changes so you can get better lasers.

Please could you share your list? my meta I believe is like yours... Grixis in form of Tempo/Control, Blade, LAnds, some Storm, etc...

I looked at my old list with trinis but I believe it is quite outdated - the idea of trinis was to figth some how miracles but now it is gone I just would prefer a list wthouth trinis...
regarding new cards to add I found new Gideon great in my cataclism-trini list as it can be converted in a creature when you cataclism the opp. also the Nodes seem bad right now...

[Weapon X]

4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
3 Wrath Of God
4 Orim’s Chant
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Zuran Orb
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere
1 Ivory Tower
1 Pithing Needle
3 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal

2 Rest In Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Goblin Charbelcher

2 Mountain
16 Plains

Sideboard
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Aura of Silence
1 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Council's Judgement

That should be my list as of right now. I seem to recall cutting a timely reinforcements for something, but I don't have my deck near.

I still play a single 3sphere. It's too powerful of a card that if you can play it you should. For us it helps get land tax online, punishes weak mana bases, and negates everyone's need to play efficiently costed spells.

[Cpt-Qc]

I noticed you listed Opal instead of Chrome mox. Has it been working for you? I don't like Chrome Mox very much since it's very rough on card advantage pre-tax/rack but I rarely have 2+ artifacts at the same time for Opal to be active.

[Weapon X]

I have never played chrome as I want access to my singletons. Opal gave me the situational mana source I was after without hindering my resources to make it work. There are times when it may not add mana but again, it's not as taxing and makes for an easy sideboard cut.

[Cpt-Qc]

The "best" card to imprint is probably a wrath effect/humility when you can't cast it but, as you said, losing a singleton can hurt later on.

I might just end up playing the 19 land after all since I do not have access to opal and I believe it isn't very good when we most need it (early).

[zenitramleirdag]

i find that the orb, tower, the 3 diamonds and the 3 scroll racks are ample, cheap artifacts that can be casts early on to support the opal..from my experience, the singleton opal gave me fewer problems that the singleton chrome mox did..in parfait, i would use a wildfield borderpost first before i use a chrome mox.

[jubeininja69]

can someone please record this deck on magic online or in store?