[Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

[Weapon X]

I would have done that 3 years ago or so had I a camera.

[Cpt-Qc]

I don't have that possibility either but I'm trying to convince some twitch streamers to build it. If I can get them to buy moxens it could happen.

[zenitramleirdag]

is blood sun good for our deck?

http://mythicspoiler.com/rix/cards/bloodsun.html

or is blood moon enough/better?

fwiw, the cantrip is what really shines on it..

[Weapon X]

Bad.

Blood moon can beat decks by itself just by colour screw. Sun still gives useable mana while only really affecting fetch lands which we don't really use.

[zenitramleirdag]

Bad.

Blood moon can beat decks by itself just by colour screw. Sun still gives useable mana while only really affecting fetch lands which we don't really use.


@Weapon X
how does your 75 currently look like? have you made any changes lately?

[Weapon X]

Unchanged.

I kind of laugh about it actually. It's like when dig and treasure cruise were present and people were losing there minds over that, I was sitting back eating my popcorn. My deck became stronger due to people forcing delve.

I'll even reiterate it; Any changes made are usually sideboard and that's due to expected meta which also doesn't necessarily cause a change.

[Weapon X]

Amendment of sorts, I have been debating trying search for the second sun as another possible option but have yet to actually test it in any capacity.

[Cpt-Qc]

I'm assuming you meant Approach of the second sun? If so, that spell seems really really bad :laugh:

[Weapon X]

That is the card I meant.

It's attractive as it does something that I have sideboard cards for but also creates another way to win at the cost of a single card.

[Cpt-Qc]

I fail to see how it requires 1 card: It needs 7 lands (8 for daze, 9 for pierce), a scroll rack+7cards in hands to use effectively (which also implies Land Tax). I'd say it's pretty unreasonable to expect to get all of these. Unless you're really trying to cast it once and then another time 7 turns later... I doubt you'll be alive or your opponent will let you get there in time.

I have a hard enough time casting 4 drops vs all the delver or other fast decks in legacy, I'm definitely not going over that. I'd rather get Terminus at this point since it can be cast for 1 sometimes and a board wipe is more synergistic with the rest of the deck.

But then again, I tried timely reinforcements for a few months without much if any success so maybe it's good for your meta.

[Weapon X]

The basis of the deck is to go for the long game. Gaining 6 life is a way to get there with the potential to win the game. Timely reinforcements still does more for less cost however. As I said it is something I am curious about as it takes a single slot to potentially win the game much like the lone charbelcher.

As memory serves your list is much different from mine because I don't usually have that problem.

[Cpt-Qc]

As of right now our mainboards are almost identical but it differs greatly in the side. I decided to use 6 utility creatures to give me a clock against combo decks because I could never make it to the lategame otherwise.

My meta has a few combos that are really weak to those and a lot of stompy fast decks atm so I can't count on always going lategame sadly.

[Weapon X]

So you have a lot of stompy and zuran orb, trinisphere, ivory tower, humility, numerous spot removal/mass removal, chant, etc can't get you to the late game?

[Cpt-Qc]

Pretty much. Maybe I'm just that unlucky but over the last 6 months I had a pretty bad record to stompy decks like Soldiers/Humans, UR delver, Food Chain. Also, combo decks like High Tide, SnS, Storm really tear through this deck if you don't have a clock. But I was specifically talking about the first half of 2017 during which I played a different mainboard with a sideboard closer to yours. It has been going better since I half-reverted my sideboard and streamlined my mainboard.

Even then, I still board out Belcher a lot since it's too slow (I enjoy it as a backup plan but sometimes it just doesn't do anything). That's why I woud never consider running a 7 drop that almost "does nothing" but that's based on my play style and experience. I'm not saying it isn't good but rather that I don't see how it could be used to give good results and I try not to play something I don't understand much.

[zenitramleirdag]

not that it can't work but i feel legacy is just too fast and hostile to reliably cast approach of the second sun..


@Cpt-Qc
can i see your sideboard man?

[Cpt-Qc]

Of course, here:

-2x Ethersworn Canonist
-2x Phyrexian Revoker
-2x Spirit of the Labyrinth
-1x Circle of Protection: Red
-1x Ghostly Prison
-2x Leyline of Sanctity
-1x Rest in Peace
-1x Sacred Mesa
-1x Seal of Cleansing
-2x Red Elemental Blast

[Cpt-Qc]

@weaponx are you still on the Nahiri / Baneslayer sideboard plan?

Since it's been a while she's been out and I was wondering if you found the results satisfactory enough to keep her in permanently.

I'd like to try her and I was wondering in which matchups you usually side her in and what are the most likely targets for her removal. I tried Gideon and Elspeth and, although I ended up cutting them, their use was almost exclusively for control mirrors. I can't help but feel like Nahiri's removal is lackluster against a deck like miracles that has almost no permanents and she can't fight an opposing Jace at all.

[Weapon X]

That creature option is always there, currently it is still baneslayer as I haven't needed the genju speed.

Nahiri is just too versatile not to include when I have access to red. The filtering is the main reason to play her. Most of the time she'll come down and remove something making the board clear, seemed to hit delvers and shaman a lot. Has hit counterbalance more then I expected. The cute part is the ultimate lets us win on the spot in most cases with helm. Occasionally you get a hasty baneslayer. Of note i had considered Nahiri/emrakul as a potential win condition but Emmy is garbage outside of that plan in the deck.

[Cpt-Qc]

I had the worst 4 rounds ever with the deck this week. Nevertheless, I got to Resolve Nahiri once and she won me the game.

The look on my opponent's face when I got Helm with the ult was pretty great. He proceeded to read the card thoroughly, and died. If they do not have a way to deal with it, it's a 3 turn clock, which is even faster than jace. I guess the fact that people don't know what she does completely make it an asset.

[Weapon X]

It does what I want for most cards in the deck; it's versatile. That makes Nahiri worth its weight in gold. Removal, filtering, and a win condition in a card.

I was playing a deck where Nahiri/emrakul was my win con. It has played out better in parfait.

[zenitramleirdag]

i too, still have a singleton baneslayer angel in my sideboard, though sometimes i take her out for a genju of the fields or an Assemble the Legion because i like to change things up from time to time..


on another note, i'd like to recommend some banishing lights in lieu of some copies of oblivion ring; two reasons: so that show and tell players can't get you by putting a land in play..how? a good show and tell player, if they know you have the oblivion ring in hand and you have like another permanent in play like maybe a land tax or a scroll rack or anything, will cast show and tell and you will put your oblivion ring into play and then they will put down a land, like a scalding tarn in play and suddenly the only legal target is one of your permanents..whereas with banishing light, you'll just have another permanent to sacc and survive a few emrakuls..

..another upside to this is that it acts as a hedge against extraction effects..

[Weapon X]

Against show I'm not worried about that. I mentioned winning off of their show and tell for a reason.

Also that's only one reason.

[Cpt-Qc]

https://www.twitch.tv/paragoncitygames

To anyone interested in seeing the deck in action, I convinced these guys to build it on modo. They will be playing my version of the deck @10AM mst tomorrow (2018/02/28).

I'll be there (in the chat) to try and help the poor guys out as they make critical misplays :tongue:

https://www.twitch.tv/paragoncitygames

[zenitramleirdag]

https://www.twitch.tv/paragoncitygames

To anyone interested in seeing the deck in action, I convinced these guys to build it on modo. They will be playing my version of the deck @10AM mst tomorrow (2018/02/28).

I'll be there (in the chat) to try and help the poor guys out as they make critical misplays :tongue:

https://www.twitch.tv/paragoncitygames


sweet!

[Cpt-Qc]

And it's over. Replay can be found here https://www.twitch.tv/videos/233725982 for a few weeks.

They made some pretty bad plays/keeps that made me want to tear out my fingernails but it was still a good showcase for what the deck can do. The league should have been an easy 3-2 but they literally threw away 2 games ending at 1-4.

Helping people sideboard through twitch delay isn't easy when modo is timed! I did my best to try and steer them in the right direction but the lack of experience cost them time too and you need to play fast when you're a control deck.

[kinda]

Good fun to watch! I caught all but round 1. We need a quinn stream now to figure out the best enlightened tutor deck. 1-4 shouldn't be hard to beat :p.

[Cpt-Qc]

I pondered the many shells that existed before I got into Parfait and Quinn just feels so much worse. The card draw engine is slow, weak to wasteland and random. It would require 9 mana over 3 turns to just equal 1 Land Tax activation (which you don't even have to work for if you're on the draw) . "Maybe draw 1 for 3mana" < "Definitely draw 3 for 0 mana" in my book.

Besides, you can always modify parfait to fit your needs aside from the engine (you could always play the rest of the Quinn deck if you wanted). The fact is Land tax is by far superior to scrying sheets.

[PirateKing]

In a world without Top, Quinn is a shell of itself. Scrying Sheets was never supposed to be random, but those days are gone now. Like tears in the rain.

[Cpt-Qc]

In a world without Top, Quinn is a shell of itself. Scrying Sheets was never supposed to be random, but those days are gone now. Like tears in the rain.

I find it funny that Quinn moved to the "established decks" although it became almost unplayable :laugh:

[jubeininja69]

^why isochron scepter in place of the 4th diamond?

[Cpt-Qc]

Scepter isn't replacing a diamond, they're not related at all. It is a soft win-con with a possibility to be a hard one in some MU. It did push Prison to the side since I need it way less.

Besides, 18-19 lands isn't enough for 4 Diamonds. I tried the fourth diamond and chrome but both were awkward so I ended up adding a 19th land. I left one different art plains to know when I would have gotten that card and it's always been better as a plains than it would have as a diamond/chrome/opal.

[Weapon X]

Well because it's taking me a while to watch that stream....

Parfait was originally a vintage deck. It was named by Raphael Caron (K-run was his handle iirc) the perfect deck, more specifically le deck parfait. Has nothing to do with cereals or deserts.

[hurlman81]

So does the new orb of something from dominaria make it into our deck? It's the one that hoses big Mana decks and storm. Also I played a silent gravestone in my legacy deck this weekend and holy hell it was good. It hit snapcaster, Drs, reanimator, etc. Should we throw a one of main board?

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk

[Cpt-Qc]

So does the new orb of something from dominaria make it into our deck? It's the one that hoses big Mana decks and storm. Also I played a silent gravestone in my legacy deck this weekend and holy hell it was good. It hit snapcaster, Drs, reanimator, etc. Should we throw a one of main board?

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk

About the new card, I don't really care for it mainly because decks that play sol lands are usually not very good against us (most have no counterspell and thus leave us open to etutor whatever locks them out). I'm also fine letting my opponent cast big eldrazi and stuff only to wrath the board next. Storm isn't the best pre-board but we have enough tools to make it even post-board already. I don't believe it's a matchup that needs more fixing.

Maybe I'm missing something but what does Gravestone do for us that RIP doesn't do better already? It seems like a waste of a slot since I play 7 RIP + 4 chants.

[kinda]

I think sphere likely deserves a spot in the 75 of enlightened tutor decks. The question for me is if it's md or the sb. It's obviously good vs storm decks/elves/eldrazi/cloud post/aluren/food chain/enchan tress. But...I'm not sure how good it is vs the 4 brainstorm/4 ponder decks with snapcaster or young pyromancer. It definitely makes these cards worse. Just not sure if it slows them down enough to make the card maindeck able.

[Weapon X]

I'm intrigued by it, but trinisphere already does a lot for us by attacking the cheap mana decks and forcing lands to be played.

[Cpt-Qc]

I think sphere likely deserves a spot in the 75 of enlightened tutor decks. The question for me is if it's md or the sb. It's obviously good vs storm decks/elves/eldrazi/cloud post/aluren/food chain/enchan tress. But...I'm not sure how good it is vs the 4 brainstorm/4 ponder decks with snapcaster or young pyromancer. It definitely makes these cards worse. Just not sure if it slows them down enough to make the card maindeck able.

This absolutely needs to be sideboard if you do use it. It's not good enough to slow down cantrips and snapcasters decks. On a typical cantrip->land drop turn, sphere does nothing. On a snap->cast turn, sphere adds 1 cost. 3Ball adds 2 cost on a regular basis and 3+ in a snap-cast scenario.

I don't think the lands part of d.sphere is very relevant for this deck (elves and sol lands decks are already very good matchups). That leaves us with the canonist part. If it were to be played, it would probably have to replace a canonist. You could always do 1/1 split (this is a little less effective but it's also harder to get rid of).

[Arcanis001]

Hi,
I playing around with a UW version of Land Tax over the last months

Here is what I come up with and run threw 53 online matches and a 3rd Place in our local store


Cards selection:

Land Tax & Scroll Rack
-> main engien of the deck

with their friend
4 Mox Diamond

and
Daze
a lot of players try to don´t trigger Land Tax so Daze is a hardcounter and a go friend
with helps us to "Force" our Land Tax in the early turns into the play
it also is an entabler for Land Tax and really does a great job I start with 2 now I run 4 since 3 weeks and it works wounders

Trade Routes
is the last entabler for Land Tax and allow us to play normal UW Enchantress with Land perma go and still get
Land Tax activations later

the second synergy of the deck is arround

Rest in Peace
super strong vs all kinds of
Deathrite Shaman, Snapcaster Mage, Kolaghan's Command, Life from the Loam & ofc Reanimator and Dredge

to abuse our RIP I play
Energy Field & Web of Inertia
E-Field is not new but the Web is a nice tech vs Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
and can stay alone vs decks like D&T
and our fast kill in the form of Helm of Obedience

Enlightened Tutor
just 2 E-tutor to find our cards and our SB 1 offs
because of the virtual card disadvantage just 2

Path to Exile
as our basis point removel with can entable Land Tax

Brainstorm
because we run blue and can play the best card in Legacy
also nice way to use it rsp to L-Tax trigger to shuffel cards away and so on

Counterbalance
with I consinder as the 3rd synergy card of the deck plays so nice with
Brainstorm, Enlightened Tutor, Scroll Rack, Trade Routes and Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Humility
we don´t want to remove every singel creature we want hide behind a lock
so we don´t want cards like Dark Confi stick arround for ever or let them the gszw pridemage out
also super strong vs Sneak&Show Decks

Back to Basics
Jim Davis showes the power of the card in the 4c Control vs 3c Delver 2018 Legacy Meta

Detention Sphere
to remove random ugly cards
also nice vs Show&Tell

Note: because of our combo finish when we have an ok board we don´t fear Jace

Jace, the Mind Sculptor
still not sure here I tried 0-3 and change it
problem is he is not allive behind our E-Field Lock
and another clunky card with high CC on its own

Tundra
95% in because the T1 Etutor into T2 C-Balance start vs Storm

Flooded Strand
don´t forget you can fail to find to get L-Tax going

Sideboard Breakdown:
Pithing Needle
Sneak Attack Thespian Stage´s AEther Vial and so on

Ethersworn Canonist
vs storm combo

Aegis of the Gods
vs combo

Back to Basics
Jim Davis showes the power of the card in the 4c Control vs 3c Delver 2018 Legacy Meta

Karmic Justice
vs a-decay p-deed and co

Nevermore
an all star vs combo and vs a-decay

Porphyry Nodes
really an MVP vs Delver DRS TNN decks
also super nice vs D&T

Humility
vs GSZ Decks (Elves, Maverik, Aggro Loam)
and Show and Tell // Big Red kinds of Decks

Force of Will
not sure I want a counter 70% for the combo matchup and 30% for the hcontrol matchups like Miracle (NOT for Czech Pile)
because I faced a lot of combo lately I run Force overall Swand Song is maybe the better choice

Entreat the Angels
I just want a second win coin normally I board 1 Helm out
and bring the Entreat in every game not sure maybe MB
we run the best Miracle entablers
Brainstorm, Scroll Rack and Jace, the Mind Sculptor


This leaves us with this Decklist:

WU Land Tax


// 60 Maindeck
// 10 Artifact
4 Scroll Rack
4 Mox Diamond
2 Helm of Obedience
// 18 Enchantment
1 Web of Inertia
1 Trade Routes
4 Rest in Peace
4 Land Tax
2 Energy Field
1 Detention Sphere
3 Counterbalance
1 Humility
1 Back to Basics
// 13 Instant
3 Path to Exile
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
// 18 Land
3 Island
10 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra
// 1 Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Aegis of the Gods
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 1 Karmic Justice
SB: 1 Nevermore
SB: 3 Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 3 Force of Will
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels



What we want:

1. one cc5 spell MB to CB the Force maybe
Batterskull Sphere of Safety Sigil of the Empty Throne Future Sight ???

2. Damping Sphere
as soon this card comes out 1 will go SB to make our BIG Eldrazi Matchup better
for 1 P-Nodes or 1 E-Canonist or 1 AotG depends on the Meta



For the rest of the Deck I am so far really happy and open for Feedback :cool:

[Weapon X]

...well that was hard to read.


So before anything else, you are claiming approx 60 games so I'm curious what your record looks like.

[Arcanis001]

...well that was hard to read.


So before anything else, you are claiming approx 60 games so I'm curious what your record looks like.

sorry for that

Here are my matchups from our store and online
same 75 only diff is 1-3 Jace and SB: 3 Force or 3 Swan Songs

5:0 Chandra Moon
2:0 Big Red

3:2 Sneak & Omni Show
1:4 ANT (feelt a bit unlucky with my draws)

4:1 BR Reanimator
3:0 0 Mana Dredge
2:0 Mana Dredge

6:0 UR Delver
3:1 Grix Delver
0:3 BUG Delver (4 Hymn & 4 Decay)

6:3 Czech Pile (depends on their version vs Bigger Pile I have more problems)
2:3 3c Leovold (3 Hymn & 2 Decay & 2 Tseize SB: 1 Hymn 1 Decay 1 Grip)
4:2 Miracle

1:0 Maverik (I think I got quite lucky here)
1:4 BIG Eldrazi (fast B2B or super fast combo only outs waiting for Damping Sphere)

Total:
43:23

Winrate: 65%

21.3.2018 66 Matches with this ~75 cards

% represents not the meta because of small sample size and the meta of our store

Edit:
Forget
1:0 vs BUG Nic Fit
&
2:0 vs BGw Nic Fit
witch we played in our store after the tournament

[Weapon X]

It doesn't seem like your matchups are getting any better with your blue splash. Is it also appears you are losing to what should be auto wins (assuming big eldrazi is post or a variant).

So with that said, I don't think "counters" is where we want to be. The idea with my bdi parfait list is to ask questions because if your opponent doesn't have the answer they lose. That's a big draw to play an enlightened tutor silver bullet strategy.

Blood moon is better then back to basics. You are effectively switching out a lock piece for annoyance as B2B still gives at least a one time use.

Counterbalance is best with top. It may be worth a miser copy, but stacking your deck for it can interfere with the raw card advantage you get with tax. Rack for 7+ is going to better for you then setting up a single counterbalance.

Normally I would say cut all your non basics for basics. Make tax as powerful as you can. The difference with blue is that you get mana severance. Belcher + severance should probably see main deck, or at the very least belcher main, severance board. Colourless removal, a pseudo shuffle, and a win con for a single slot is worth it.

Detention sphere should probably be upped to 3 copies main. O ring is great game one by being versatile removal. It means game 2 you can side in to better specific hate without hurting you and still have a lot of generic removal as needed.

No supreme verdict?
No zuran orb?

That's all from a first glance.

[Arcanis001]

It doesn't seem like your matchups are getting any better with your blue splash. Is it also appears you are losing to what should be auto wins (assuming big eldrazi is post or a variant).

So with that said, I don't think "counters" is where we want to be. The idea with my bdi parfait list is to ask questions because if your opponent doesn't have the answer they lose. That's a big draw to play an enlightened tutor silver bullet strategy.

Blood moon is better then back to basics. You are effectively switching out a lock piece for annoyance as B2B still gives at least a one time use.

Counterbalance is best with top. It may be worth a miser copy, but stacking your deck for it can interfere with the raw card advantage you get with tax. Rack for 7+ is going to better for you then setting up a single counterbalance.

Normally I would say cut all your non basics for basics. Make tax as powerful as you can. The difference with blue is that you get mana severance. Belcher + severance should probably see main deck, or at the very least belcher main, severance board. Colourless removal, a pseudo shuffle, and a win con for a single slot is worth it.

Detention sphere should probably be upped to 3 copies main. O ring is great game one by being versatile removal. It means game 2 you can side in to better specific hate without hurting you and still have a lot of generic removal as needed.

No supreme verdict?
No zuran orb?

That's all from a first glance.


Thank you first for your feedback

Maybe you should play ~10 matches vs diff archetypes with my build first before argue about it
I think the basic idea so far doesn´t give us any good big tournament results in the last years right ;-)
So I took a kind of diff approach to it

For many years UWx Miralce was the best (Control) Deck of the Format but to many people still
don´t think about other directions after the top ban because in their minds miracle is without a doubt still
the Nr. 1 UWx Control Shell
Here I think Parfait can give players a diff approach of proactive control and lock cards

Blood Moon is ofc better then B2B but of color... like BS is the best draw spell for every deck but not every deck is blue

Rack&CB work really good you can put back 4 cards the 3 "useless" lands and the right CMC

mana severance on its own its a dead card and RIP is a great Meta call on its own
I think you don´t get the idea what my version tries to accomplish I would recommend to you give it a shot before argue about it ;-)

Zuran Orb <<< Trade Routes
Supreme Verdict << Humility & RIP Lock

But I can also see 2 Detention sphere MB

[Arcanis001]

...well that was hard to read.


So before anything else, you are claiming approx 60 games so I'm curious what your record looks like.

How does your record looks like?

Maybe we can get the best out of the 2 builds

For BIG Eldrazi


All IS Dust
Karn Liberated
ugin, the spirit dragon
ulamog, the ceaseless hunger
sorcerous spyglass
chalice of the void


are pretty hard to beat all together

[Weapon X]

Honestly not sure of the numbers. It's been the deck I was playing since tax was unbanned. I went undefeated in the first 3 tournaments and otherwise it holds a higher then .500 record for me.

I have 3 wraths, 3 o rings, 4 paths, pitching needle, 4 chant, blood moon, humility, and 4 tutors main as a quick gloss of answers to your problem cards which I beat all together. I'm already going over them before they're problems and should be able to win before they are issues as well as it's not a fast deck.

I appreciate you agreeing with bloodmoon being a better card then B2B, but I feel you are missing the why. Being able to still play spells, even if it's a single time, doesn't hurt your opponent. The colour of it is irrelevant as it's effect isn't desirable.

Rack doesn't do what top does. Multiple racks in play is not where you want to be. This is why I feel counterbalance and rack is bad, especially for the slots they take.

I agree mana severance is a bad card, but one slot to allow non basics is strong, especially with charbelcher. Having multiple ways to win is a strength of my build and made stronger by just riding what the deck does normally.

If you're losing to creatures and storm then zuran orb is better then trade routes. One land can equal a turn which is more then a card. Verdict similarly clears threats. We can still lose to swarms of 1/1's which some decks make.



Edit: while I'm thinking about it, my deck seeks to control the game then combo. You look like you want to combo asap and just protect it. That's where I see the big "control" difference

[Nik842]

Honestly not sure of the numbers. It's been the deck I was playing since tax was unbanned. I went undefeated in the first 3 tournaments and otherwise it holds a higher then .500 record for me.

I have 3 wraths, 3 o rings, 4 paths, pitching needle, 4 chant, blood moon, humility, and 4 tutors main as a quick gloss of answers to your problem cards which I beat all together. I'm already going over them before they're problems and should be able to win before they are issues as well as it's not a fast deck.

I appreciate you agreeing with bloodmoon being a better card then B2B, but I feel you are missing the why. Being able to still play spells, even if it's a single time, doesn't hurt your opponent. The colour of it is irrelevant as it's effect isn't desirable.

Rack doesn't do what top does. Multiple racks in play is not where you want to be. This is why I feel counterbalance and rack is bad, especially for the slots they take.

I agree mana severance is a bad card, but one slot to allow non basics is strong, especially with charbelcher. Having multiple ways to win is a strength of my build and made stronger by just riding what the deck does normally.

If you're losing to creatures and storm then zuran orb is better then trade routes. One land can equal a turn which is more then a card. Verdict similarly clears threats. We can still lose to swarms of 1/1's which some decks make.



Edit: while I'm thinking about it, my deck seeks to control the game then combo. You look like you want to combo asap and just protect it. That's where I see the big "control" difference



So are you saying a Mana Severance in the SB is not worth doing?

My MB is more or less an exact copy of yours.

I'm changing around the SB to look like this: (and see how it goes for me)

1x Aegis of the Gods
1x Aura of Silence
1x Dark Depths
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Rest in peace
1x Mana Severance
1x Nahiri, the Harbinger
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Runed Halo
2x Seal of Cleansing
2x Timely Reinforcements

[Weapon X]

So are you saying a Mana Severance in the SB is not worth doing?


I'm saying mana severance is worth a slot if you're already in blue and want to play non basics. With red non basics are less of a problem with charbelcher as they should be plateaus in most cases so it's a way to double damage. With blue you are more likely to play tundra and fetches at a minimum as most people who play blue will ignore the other colour. In the case of parfait you have a mono white control deck that people generally want to play heavy blue in and with UU as a common casting cost.

So I feel I strayed a bit, but if you're in Wr parfait there is no need for severance. You have tax to fish out your basics and you can leave a mountain in the deck. If you insist of playing non basics and are already in blue I would consider severance and belcher.

[Nik842]

I'm saying mana severance is worth a slot if you're already in blue and want to play non basics. With red non basics are less of a problem with charbelcher as they should be plateaus in most cases so it's a way to double damage. With blue you are more likely to play tundra and fetches at a minimum as most people who play blue will ignore the other colour. In the case of parfait you have a mono white control deck that people generally want to play heavy blue in and with UU as a common casting cost.

So I feel I strayed a bit, but if you're in Wr parfait there is no need for severance. You have tax to fish out your basics and you can leave a mountain in the deck. If you insist of playing non basics and are already in blue I would consider severance and belcher.

Here's my deck, and by what you've said it looks I should probably cut Mana Severance since I'm not running non-basics.

Artifact (14)

1x Goblin Charbelcher
2x Helm of Obedience
1x Ivory Tower
1x Lotus Petal (testing as I don't own a Mox Opal and Chrome Mox is now worth it)
3x Mox Diamond
1x Pithing Needle
3x Scroll Rack
1x Trinisphere
1x Zuran Orb

Sorcery (3)

2x Terminus (might be switching it to 2 more WoG). Though in the one actual tournament I've played with this (aka never actually playested this :laugh:) Terminus has been pretty good.
1x Wrath of God

Enchantment (13)

1x Blood Moon
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Humility
4x Land Tax
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Rest in Peace
1x Solitary Confinement

Instant (12)

4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Orim's Chant
4x Path to Exile

Land (18)

2x Mountain
16x Plains

[Weapon X]

Honestly the opal can just as easily be another land, but I had considered petal. I just wanted a permanent source of mana.


Yeah my list has no reason to play mana severance. Charbelcher is more of the surprise factor as you will traditionally win with rip/helm. The problem is rip is so good that a lot of decks will try to deal with it to the point where you can't even win with rip/helm. Belcher gives you that alternate way to win that people may expect, but won't prepare for. It like a main board "side into dudes" plan.

Also as an aside, you can use belcher to "shuffle" your deck. Not common, but good to know.

[Arcanis001]

Honestly not sure of the numbers. It's been the deck I was playing since tax was unbanned. I went undefeated in the first 3 tournaments and otherwise it holds a higher then .500 record for me.

I have 3 wraths, 3 o rings, 4 paths, pitching needle, 4 chant, blood moon, humility, and 4 tutors main as a quick gloss of answers to your problem cards which I beat all together. I'm already going over them before they're problems and should be able to win before they are issues as well as it's not a fast deck.

I appreciate you agreeing with bloodmoon being a better card then B2B, but I feel you are missing the why. Being able to still play spells, even if it's a single time, doesn't hurt your opponent. The colour of it is irrelevant as it's effect isn't desirable.

Rack doesn't do what top does. Multiple racks in play is not where you want to be. This is why I feel counterbalance and rack is bad, especially for the slots they take.

I agree mana severance is a bad card, but one slot to allow non basics is strong, especially with charbelcher. Having multiple ways to win is a strength of my build and made stronger by just riding what the deck does normally.

If you're losing to creatures and storm then zuran orb is better then trade routes. One land can equal a turn which is more then a card. Verdict similarly clears threats. We can still lose to swarms of 1/1's which some decks make.



Edit: while I'm thinking about it, my deck seeks to control the game then combo. You look like you want to combo asap and just protect it. That's where I see the big "control" difference


Yeahh I am also not 100% sure about the numbers... its still a project for all of us :cool:

How are your matchups since the Top Bann? Do you have a track of your records?


I don´t like Wrath at all -> it just is a 1 time board cleaner not a permanent solution

Humility > Wrath
- BR Reanimator
- Dark Detphs
- Big Red (Sneak Attack)
- Big Eldrazi
- D&T vs Flickerwisp & co nonsense
- Elves vs Reclamation Sage and eto fetch Dryad Dryad into Craterhoof Behemoth
- Maverik with Dark Depths & Qasali Pridemage
- Golbins haste
and so on

I like the ideas of a permanent 2 card lock (RIP & Field) and Humility for most cards how could get around this lock:
- Reclamation Sage
- Qasali Pridemage
- Flickerwisp
- Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
- Tidespout Tyrant

But after all does we really want to have 3 Humilitys MB I don´t think so they are to clunky in a lot of matchups

4 Chant
for what?
sure 1/10 times you win g1 by catching combo on surprise but normally they discard you before
to get a spell through?
is it not better to run the money spells as 4offs to just play them 2 times if the first one gets countered
and in top decking second business spell >>> chant

Blood moon
sure Moon > B2B but I want to stay 2c and both do their job
B2B forces them to play more lands with is a great place to be in with Land Tax
if you run red ofc Moon is better

4 Tutors
I started testing with 4 as well but they are all the time a virtual -1 do we really want this vs Delver.dec?
BS does also a great job of digging and card advantage
Ofc we want some ETutors in our deck but I think 4 is too much of an drawback

with 4 Land Tax and 2 Enlightened Tutor
~39,9% of having Land Tax in starting 7
~54,1% of having Land Tax or Enlightened Tutor in starting 7
~59.3% of having Land Tax or Enlightened Tutor T2 otp
~64.0% of having Land Tax or Enlightened Tutor T2 otd
~72.1% of having Land Tax or Enlightened Tutor after BS on T2 otp
~75.5% of having Land Tax or Enlightened Tutor after BS on T2 otd

3 o rings
My question here is what permanent really bothers us g1?
Yeahh not so much so instead of taking care of 1 permanent that is a bit annoying I prefer to
shut them out of the game with Counterblance or win with Helm and they can keep their 1 permeant


"Rack doesn't do what top does. Multiple racks in play is not where you want to be. This is why I feel counterbalance and rack is bad, especially for the slots they take."
Rack is like a "Brainstorm" every time we need it and yeahh I enjoying it when I have out 2 Racks
Look at Miracles they still play CB and argue that even if you never get the chance to set up a single CB Trigger you still get value out of it over time
We have many good options to set up our cards its just an MVP in Control Mirrors or Combo Matches
Try it out and give it a shot

"I agree mana severance is a bad card"
so I don´t like to run it because with all the Rack BS and Land Tax I will do the same job

"If you're losing to creatures and storm then zuran orb is better then trade routes. One land can equal a turn which is more then a card. Verdict similarly clears threats. We can still lose to swarms of 1/1's which some decks make."
here I think you don´t get my point

Zuran Orb is good vs Burn and maybe Delver
but does he win vs Delver on its own -> Nope

Trade Routes does a good job to change your top card for CB
and gives you a lot of value in grindy matchups and control mirrors

vs Storm Orb does nearly nothing because every good Storm pilot will go the 2-3 storm count higher
here RIP and CB are the key cards to win these matches


Here is my updated list:

// 60 Maindeck
// 10 Artifact
4 Scroll Rack
4 Mox Diamond
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Goblin Charbelcher
// 18 Enchantment
1 Web of Inertia
1 Trade Routes
4 Rest in Peace
4 Land Tax
2 Energy Field
1 Detention Sphere
3 Counterbalance
1 Humility
1 Back to Basics
// 13 Instant
3 Path to Exile
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
// 18 Land
3 Island
10 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra
// 1 Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Damping Sphere
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 1 Karmic Justice
SB: 1 Nevermore
SB: 3 Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 3 Swan Song

[Weapon X]

I don't track my games, I probably should have. That said top was never really an issue outside of counter top, and even that was beatable with my diverse curve.

I like wrath because it is a permanent board cleaner. I've seen people play terminus but it feels like a trap as it is really only a delay. Plus I also have spot removal. Wrath is a good equalizer when things go south. In the end more decks care about rip anyway. A 15 vanilla 1/1 that gives you extra turns will still beat you after all.

Chant is easily the most underrated spell. It's a white time walk. You can play chant in many situations. It can stop combo mid combo which is ideal, but even before buys a turn. Forcing spells through is good, sometimes it's just good as a bait spell. Let elves combo you with their craterhoof, chant, now they aren't attacking. It is the Swiss army knife you need.

B2B forces the player to either kill it first with no need to play land, or ignore it if threats are already present.

One tax activation should cover all your card disadvantage in one game. Also you don't want to "need to" tutor for a tax. The tutors are there mainly for the silver billets. Playing so many 1 ofs that singlenhandedly beat a given deck is the reason for it. The card disadvantage is also negated by beating a deck with a single card. That's a gloss over, but there is no real reason to not play 4 tutors here.

You won't always have the right answer. O ring is the hedge there and it is tutorable. Planeswalkers are the main issue. Show and tell existing also makes it a strong inclusion.

Rack isn't brainstorm but people play both poorly. Counterbalance can gain value over time simply because it takes advantage of people wanting to be as efficient as possible. Racking multiple times is not being efficient.

Zuran orb isn't there to win the game. It's there to keep you alive and force tax activations if needed. Humility doesn't win the game on its own either but there it is in your list. Even if storm "always goes above the count" that still means zorb is doing something here.

[Cpt-Qc]

@Arcanis

Chant is the closest you can get to a counterspell in white. And it beats any number of counters if it resolves so it can be better if opponent isn't ready to pitch a blue card. If you're in blue you might not want to play it because you have access to a lot of other cards but for mono white it is the only option. Most combo players usually don't see it as a threat and if they have discard, no card would have mattered anyway.

I'll often cut tutors when facing counterspell heavy decks/delver but my meta has a lot of non-blue decks too. Going -1 card when you know your bullet is going to stick is still the best thing you can do vs a non-blue deck so I think 4 isn't too many.

The one type of permanent I have the most trouble with is Planeswalkers. I can't stress enough how Oring/Dsphere helps vs lotv or jtms. They need to be dealth with quickly or we just lose.

[Lobo]

I noticed a player named Simon Hugger has a couple of impressive finishes recently with a UW list.

First, on April 8, he placed 2/71 players: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=27269&iddeck=217303

Then, on April 22, he placed 4/104 players: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=27322&iddeck=218061

These lists are very much like the ones Arcanis001 described in this thread. Arcanis, is that you? If so, well done! As a newcomer to the deck, I encourage you to report your thoughts about these recent performances. And if that isn't you, well, it's good evidence in support of your list, so well done again. I have just ordered my Scroll Racks and Land Taxes, and I look forward to sleeving it up.

[Arcanis001]

I noticed a player named Simon Hugger has a couple of impressive finishes recently with a UW list.

First, on April 8, he placed 2/71 players: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=27269&iddeck=217303

Then, on April 22, he placed 4/104 players: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=27322&iddeck=218061

These lists are very much like the ones Arcanis001 described in this thread. Arcanis, is that you? If so, well done! As a newcomer to the deck, I encourage you to report your thoughts about these recent performances. And if that isn't you, well, it's good evidence in support of your list, so well done again. I have just ordered my Scroll Racks and Land Taxes, and I look forward to sleeving it up.

Hey,
sadly nope I still play Dark Depths in Big Events but I shared my list online so maybe someone give it a try

So or so happy so see finally a Land Tax Deck doing good in a bigger tournament

Here is my list


// 60 Maindeck
// 10 Artifact
4 Scroll Rack
4 Mox Diamond
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Goblin Charbelcher

// 18 Enchantment
1 Web of Inertia
1 Trade Routes
4 Rest in Peace
4 Land Tax
2 Energy Field
1 Detention Sphere
3 Counterbalance
1 Humility
1 Back to Basics

// 13 Instant
3 Path to Exile
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm

// 18 Land
3 Island
10 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra

// 1 Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Damping Sphere
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 1 Nevermore
SB: 3 Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 3 Swan Song
SB: 2 Timely Reinforcements


Goblin Charbelcher MB saves 1 SB slot
Karmic Justice was not good because I face nearly 0 Pernicious Deed decks online
But I could myself seeing running the 2 B2B MB because of the meta
Timely Reinforcements is a try sometimes you need vs Delver and Co. 2-3 turns extra witch it gives to you
Damping Sphere super strong but still I have a lot of problems vs Elves

Cards to test -> Teferi, Hero of Dominaria

[zenitramleirdag]

the new card, brightling..what do you think about it?

does it have a place as a sideboard card in parfait?

http://mythicspoiler.com/bbd/cards/brightling.html

[Weapon X]

It could, but baneslayer and similar fly. That evasion and first strike are fairly hard to beat. Added bonus you don't need to sink mana into a baneslayer. Basically it's not better then baneslayer or similar. In a pinch maybe.

[Nik842]

Does Deathrite Shaman being banned benefit the deck in anyway?

[Cpt-Qc]

I'd say yes it does. No longer do we need to use T1 removal on drs just to slow them down and/or make our Blood Moon good. We can keep it for real threats now.

Also, people will use more graveyard synergy decks. Since we have RIP main, we like goyf/kotr decks. Take RUG delver for example: RIP makes mongoose a 1/1 and goyf a 0/1. Now all we have to deal with are Delvers.

[Weapon X]

I don't think it changes anything. It already lost to our win con and we have needle and humility amongst other tools. More then likely I would expect another delve era. Ie people will play some new flavour of the week then lose even worse to us.

[zenitramleirdag]

i'd like to share these interesting articles:

https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/the-new-legacy-metagame-where-do-we-go-now/


https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/the-legacy-purge/

[Weapon X]

Neat, but not really adding anything

[jubeininja69]

It could, but baneslayer and similar fly. That evasion and first strike are fairly hard to beat. Added bonus you don't need to sink mana into a baneslayer. Basically it's not better then baneslayer or similar. In a pinch maybe.

I like brightling's return to hand ability to dodge wrath. I think it deserves testing.

[Weapon X]

Genju of the fields was one of the first cards I used in that slot. It's 1 mana and has pseudo built in protection. It's also a mana sink if you really need/want. It was great against aggro for me. I just don't feel like the mana investment for brightling compares to just baneslayer or the genju.

[zenitramleirdag]

just came across this card, endless atlas..

what do you think of it?
very few decks in legacy can utilize its ability..
but we run so many basics that its no problem turning it on..
its a cheap-to-activate card drawing engine..

[Weapon X]

We have tax as a recall every turn for W.

I don't think this adds anything for us. Burn is probably the best spot for this and I doubt they would play it.

[jubeininja69]

is there a close replacement for trinisphere? i don't have one at this time. would sphere of resistance be acceptable?

also any updates to your list or is it still the same?

[zenitramleirdag]

is there a close replacement for trinisphere? i don't have one at this time. would sphere of resistance be acceptable?

also any updates to your list or is it still the same?


at first glance sphere of resistance(or thorn of amethyst) might be the best substitute but it really isn't..trinisphere slows down fast decks without slowing down our haymakers/wincons(4-cmc spells)..it seems like it can hurt us when we're trying to combo off, imagine casting helm or belcher for 5, not to mention activating them..

maybe Dampening Sphere? but that's just a shot in the dark..i personally won't use it..

maybe just add another blood moon or a choke..

[jubeininja69]

at first glance sphere of resistance(or thorn of amethyst) might be the best substitute but it really isn't..trinisphere slows down fast decks without slowing down our haymakers/wincons(4-cmc spells)..it seems like it can hurt us when we're trying to combo off, imagine casting helm or belcher for 5, not to mention activating them..

maybe Dampening Sphere? but that's just a shot in the dark..i personally won't use it..

maybe just add another blood moon or a choke..

with trinisphere, it make our land tax, plows, chants, tutor all 3 cmc anyway right? When is the right time to play trinisphere?

[zenitramleirdag]

with trinisphere, it make our land tax, plows, chants, tutor all 3 cmc anyway right? When is the right time to play trinisphere?


it makes our land tax cost 3 but it also enables it by forcing them to play lands..

against combo, i don't mind if my chants cost more with as long as they can't combo off..

it makes our PtE's and/or swords more expensive but so do their creatures making it easier to answer them 1 for 1..

==============================================================

i like to play trinisphere when they haven't established a board presence yet, usually in the early game when the opponent stubbornly refuses to play lands..
i like to play trinisphere early against burn, elves, delver variants or any brainstrom deck..

[Weapon X]

There really isn't a replacement for trinisphere. It's just simply one of those hoser cards that doesn't affect us as much as it should our opponent. The format is one of efficiency and 3sphere is a card that capitalizes on that. It slows down aggro and combo which we want to happen so we can control the game. The closest option beyond will probably be something like Thalia, but that would be more of a sideboard option more us since we want to blank as many cards as we can.

Trinisphere will depend on the matchup, but even beyond that sooner is better for most. Any tempo, combo, aggro, etc gets crippled by a trinisphere with only really helping us by forcing them to play into our tax game.

[Telim Tor]

What do you think about new card Dawn of Hope like a win condition / extra drawing and life recovery tool:

https://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/guilds-of-ravnica/35440-dawn-of-hope

[Weapon X]

It's more versatile then sacred mesa. I like it. Wish there was some evasion attached to the creatures but being a one card draw engine is nice for a win con.

[zenitramleirdag]

It's more versatile then sacred mesa. I like it. Wish there was some evasion attached to the creatures but being a one card draw engine is nice for a win con.

what do you guys think of this card for the sideboard, it hits weaker than baneslayer though it can come down faster and buffs other creatures that also come in postboard?

http://mythicspoiler.com/grn/cards/aureliaexemplarofjustice.html



that card, Dawn of Hope..can you pump it multiple times for 1 ivory tower trigger?

[PirateKing]

that card, Dawn of Hope..can you pump it multiple times for 1 ivory tower trigger?

If by pump you mean draw a card; no. It's a triggered ability that triggers on life gain, regardless of the amount. so if Ivory Tower gains you 3 life, that's one trigger, one chance to draw a card.

[Weapon X]

In most cases I'm playing baneslayer because of the first strike and life link. So both offensively and defensively it's going to do what it needs to do. I don't like the restrictions on that angel and elspeth buffs guys better.

[Cpt-Qc]

I just noticed the shenanigans you may do with experimental frenzy and scroll rack... Not that I think it's a great card but still...

[Weapon X]

Turning a 7+ card hand to 1 just feels bad. I don’t understand why people want to play it.

[Cpt-Qc]

People really like to "break" cards. Technically this card means you have all your deck in your hand, but can only play in a preset order... which is completely dumb if you ask me lol

With so much grixis around I haven't had much success with this deck tho. They have so much discard we get shat on G1 and I've been killed through Leyline with just snapcaster beats. I noticed that the weak point in our strategy seems to be artifacts. Artifact removal is way too common nowadays and land tax without scroll rack is so useless. Most of my opponents just kill rack and let me draw lands. And since all of our card advantage engines start with 2 pieces, all our opponent needs to do is get rid of one and the other becomes bad.

Easy to obtain CA is hard to find in W alone. We also have so much card disadvantage that I would like a way to protect all my permanents (like greater auramancy but for artifacts). Unfortunately, Padeem is unavailable unless we go blue. I even thought about running boros charm just for the indestructible part but decided it was too situational.

[Weapon X]

Hannah’s custody, fountain watch, etc. They exist. I can not justify playing them.

[Cpt-Qc]

Yeah, they're not good enough because they're very situational. We'd need something that can generate value while protecting.

[Weapon X]

I don’t think we play enough artifacts worth protecting to justify even thinking about trying to do so. I’d rather just play more redundancy if I need to. To many cards need to be dealt with for me to consider protecting a portion of them. Null rod for instance is more of an issue.

[jubeininja69]

I don’t think we play enough artifacts worth protecting to justify even thinking about trying to do so. I’d rather just play more redundancy if I need to. To many cards need to be dealt with for me to consider protecting a portion of them. Null rod for instance is more of an issue.

is this still your latest list? I'm going to take the deck for spin.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24066-Deck-W-x-Parfait-(Tax-Rack-Control)&p=1026108&viewfull=1#post1026108

[Weapon X]

Looks to be. Although I think I may have lost the opal for another plains.

[H4rbinger]

Today, I took the 2nd place at my local shop with my nearly mono white pile, which has a little green splash for City of Solitude and Sterling Grove.

First of all the list:


4 Plains
4 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Karakas
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Windswept Heath

// Spells
4 Mox Diamond
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Land Tax
4 Scroll Rack
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Sterling Grove
3 Humility
3 Moat
2 Council's Judgment
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 City of Solitude
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Blessed Alliance

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 City of Solitude
SB: 3 Damping Sphere
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Jester's Cap
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Nevermore
SB: 1 Rule of Law



Here some thoughts:

Humility combined with Moat is for many decks an automatic loss, which could be found or protected with Sterling Grove.

The City of Solitude were very strong against blue decks and protected me from instant speed Aether Vial and mana denial via Rishadan Port.

Blessed Alliance were chosen to deal with single flying creatures, TNN, Marit Lage and did a great job, explicit against UB-Shadow.

The most valuable cards in the sideboard was Jester’s Cap and Nevermore, because if you locked your opponent, you eliminate their threats with it.



I choose to play this very hard locking pile, because we must bring back real prison decks!

[Weapon X]

You won every game with just elspeth?

[H4rbinger]

You're right, Elspeth is nearly unstoppable (if you can handle the Needles and Spyglasses, but for this case I had Councils Judgement and O-Ring or returned Elspeth via Mistveil Plains into my library.)

[Cpt-Qc]

That's a lot of Moat and Humility. And yeah, no real win-con except for Elspeth is pretty surprising.

This makes me want more planeswalkers now lol. Lately I've been on 1 Nahiri / 1 Gideon split. Wondering if I should add a second Nahiri or even replace Gideon.

[H4rbinger]

Of course there is a lot of Moat and Humility, because you have to survive discard, counter spells and some removal. I like to have one off these at my opening hand, so that I can cast it really quick and tutor the missing piece. I think I doesn't have to remove planeswalkers of my opponent, because they aren't always a threat with a Leyline. (Edit: I casted Humility in one game 1st turn, with 2nd turn Sterling Grove.)

If I could lock my opponent then there was always enough time to find Elspeth. But there is offen the scenario, that my opponents give up, because they have nothing in their mainboard to deal with 4CMC enchantments. After sideboard I played sometimes only one Elspeth, because the time is on my side and Scroll Rack with Tax or fetch lands will find her early enough. (Here I have to mentioned, that I never reached the extra turns.)

[Weapon X]

What were you playing against?

[H4rbinger]

1. Round: UB-Shadow (2:0)
2. Round: DnT (2:0)
3. Round: DnT (2:1)
4. Round: EsperBlade (a very close 3rd game): (1:2)
5. Round: NicFit with 2 Knight of Autumn, 3 Deeds, 3 Trophys, 1 Reclaimation Sage + 4 Green's Sun Zenith (2:1)

I played a similar pile (but without City of Solitude) at an other event also against: BUG Dephts, 3 Miracles, 1 DnT, 1 BR-Reanimation, 1 As Foretold... But at this event I threw away three clear game wins (such as: My opponent plays a Thespian Stage and I decided to discard my Karakas into my mox.) I did so many mistakes... so embarrassing... nevermind...

There were some test games against:
- Big Eldrazi (ok after sideboarding, All is Dust is preboard too strong),
- UB-Shadow (felt 50:50),
- Sneak and Show (Cunning Wish list could be strong, but without Release the Ants: Show and Tell into Humility is much fun),
- Elves (felt as good match up),
- DnT (felt as good match up).

[Cpt-Qc]

Oh I get it now. Those are practically unlosable matchups :P Blade is slightly worse but still good imo.

[Weapon X]

Yeah that explains a lot. Against fair decks it’s fairly hard to lose. No fast combo or similar is why I feel skeptical about your list. One win con doesn’t feel strong to me

[H4rbinger]

I had some test games against BR-Reanimator with the list above: Preboard 9:11 for me and after sideboarding 13:16 for me. I recognized, that Rest in Peace isn't a good answer against this and other decks, so I change a bit of my sideboard to get space for Surgical Extractions.

I also talk to our local storm and dredge players, but we didn't find the time for extended test games, yet. One of them said, that preboard should be a nearly unlosable matchup for storm, if they didn't keep a too slow hand and I haven't a too fast hand because only a few TES-lists are playing a enchantment solution in their wish board (Void Snare or Consign//Oblivion). But after sideboarding the matchup is getting worse for these decks. Dredge is easier to stop even before sideboarding.

Nevertheless I will play with this pile at the next local store tournements with some little modifications and I planning to write here a short report in my aweful english...

[Weapon X]

Rest In Peace is bad against reanimator? Was Iona ever played? Leyline is the only card you have that storm may care about... Somehow I feel like this is just raising more questions for me.

[H4rbinger]

In my opinion we can't think that simple. BR-Reanimator could be very fast, but this deck loses sometimes against itself. You're right the games, in which Iona hit the battlefield were in the most cases autoloss. But as I said, we shouldn't think too simple, we have to look at the probabilities of this deck. The problem with Rest in Peace is, that it is too slow and will be eliminated by Wear//Tear oder Reverent Silence. Surgical Extraction is in my opinion and my experiences a better choice, if you also have the possibility to hide behind a Leyline.

Also you're right, that only Leyline is before boarding a potential problem for storm decks, but again we have to think about probabilities and they also have to vomit enough goblins before Moat comes into play. And as I said, the first game will be a loss, but after sideboarding I have enough hate, so that the matches were more even.

But if I summarize the matchups against storm, dredge and BR-reanimator: You're right these decks seems to be the worst matchups, but at the moment there aren't to many players with these decks.

[Weapon X]

I’m thinking more along the lines of the probability with your list against those decks. Your “hate” is only a problem if they are trying to win and they don’t have to deal with depending on how they are aiming to win. Taking 20 on the chin ignores moat and goblins only care about moat. Storm is still in a position where it deals with a single card that is “played” after its winning turn. I only mentioned leyline due to its 4cmc, and that only an issue if assassin’s trophy doesn’t replace decay.

Rest In Peace is a card those decks need to deal with or they can’t play the game. Giving the bolt argument doesn’t change that.

I’m not sure what you are trying to suggest with “we can’t think that simple” but the commentary that followed seems off base. Apologies if that comes off as harsh.

[H4rbinger]

Today I took the 6th place of 25 players.

I played against:

Round 1: Goblins (2:0)
Round 2: Mono Red Prison (2:1)
Round 3: Dark Depths (2:1)
Round 4: Elves (1:2) (Just to mention it here: This guy draws always like he sleeps with the god of fortune)
Round 5: Mircales (0:2)

The problem against Mircales was the fact that he had all (and this very quick) of his counterspells in the first match.
I had to take mulligan down to 5 against Miracles, and then he was able to counter three land tax and I remained with one land for several turns. I saw no City of Solitude...

I change my list a bit to the following one:


// Lands
4 Plains
4 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Karakas
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Windswept Heath

// Spells
4 Mox Diamond
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Land Tax
4 Scroll Rack
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Sterling Grove
3 Humility
3 Moat
3 Council's Judgment
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 City of Solitude
1 Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 Damping Sphere
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Jester's Cap
SB: 2 Nevermore
SB: 1 Rule of Law
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction


Again I had no problems to cast early enough (approximate: turn 3) Humility, Moat and Leyline except against Mircales. Also I dodged Storm again, but I'm still thinking, that the win chances after sideboard are not too bad, but this is just guessing.

[Telim Tor]

I have been with trouble against Landstill (using almost the same BDI parfait deck, without red splash). The opponent always force of will my main pithing needle (targeting jace), or a land tax, or trinisphere, or Helm of Obedience. I loose against mishra factory, mith realized and/or jace.
1) some advice against landstill deck? we don/t play with sideboard
2) is a good option to cast orim chant / silence in the beggining of MY TURN, to (worst scenario) force a counterspell and if pass, secure my next move?

[Weapon X]

Blood moon would help. Access to blasts would help.

Since it’s not a fast game you should only really need to resolve a win con. The rest of your cards can be countered, and ideally should be, so you can cast chant and win.

[H4rbinger]

Yesterday I played the same list as posted before. I played 2 : 2 : 1...

Round 1: Dredge (1:2)
Match 1: In the first round I kept a hand based on Land Tax, which does nearly nothing against him. This war the moment I regret, that I took all Ghostly Prisons out of my deck, because I had a Tutor, a Plains and an Ancient Tomb... But without Ghostly Prison I was too slow.
Match 2: I took a Mulligan to 5 because I had no Lands in my hand. I played my Cage, which was instantly answered with a Nature's Claim. My first and my second draw were Surgical Extractions and they gave me enough time to install my lock with Nevermore on Serenity and Sterling Grove. But the Narcomoebas still beat me to 4 life until I found a Humility.
Match 3: Again there was a first turn Nature's Claim to my Cage and I had no Leyline to hide against his therapies, so that he could beat me slowly with one Ichorid into one zombie token down... Again I missed my Ghostly Prison here, because I had one turn too less to cast Moat.
The match up was not that devasting as you mention, but I have to improve it, because Dredge becomes more popular.


Round 2: BUG - Control (2:0)
Match 1: First turn I resolved a City of Solitude and I could do what I want. I locked him piece by piece and I searched for an early Sterling Grove to avoid his 3 Assassin's Trophies.
Match 2: Two early Bitterblossoms made my play a bit complicated, but hiding behind my Leyline I found all my 3 Humilities but only one Moat and was too happy, because he didn't choose to destroy my Moat. Then I removed his remaining Trophies and Golgari Charms and waited for the suicide via Bitterblossom.


Round 3: EsperDelver (1 : 1 : 1)
Match 1: There was no resistance from his side and an early Elspeth and the game, but this guy was playing so slowly...
Match 2: He was able to Extirpate my Moat and Humility and could get rid of my Elspeth. I conceded very fast, because of this slow thinking guy...
Match 3: I totally dominated the board with and early resolved City of Solitude and found again quickly my Elspeth, but again this guy plays so slow... Two turns were missing to win this... This was the first time ever I reached the end of the round with my pile and these three matches could be played in approximated 20 minutes...


Round 4: Sneak and Show (0:2)
Match 1: Show and Tell into Emrakul and I found no Humility with my deep digging Scroll Rack, but I answered with Council's Judgement. Then I made a mistake and couldn't remember excatly the order of my top library cards and exchanged one card to less to get rid of his next threat.
Match 2: I couldn't resolve a Humility and he based his strategy on Sneak Attack which I couldn't answer...
This was the first time I lost against this deck on a tournement.


Round 5: Death and Taxes (2:1)
Match 1: Early Moat supported with two Swords to Plowshares, but a lonely Flickerwisp could beat me to death
Match 2: A quick locked board were supported with an O-Ring on Ratched Bomb and a Nevermore on Council's Judgement.
Match 3: He started as usual with Land and Vial, but I had Mox with Landtax, so that a very quick locked board after searching enough Plains and an Ancient Tomb in my hand save time to finde Jester's Cap to save the board. With Scroll Rack, fetch rack I found Elspeth to end this match. Again there were over 15 minutes left in this round.



Some thoughts:
- I will bring back Ghostly Prison in my main deck, because I missed it sometimes
- City of Solitude proved itself again
- I will readd a Rest in Peace in Sideboard, which leads me to think about the Damping Sphere's which I will change to two additional Rule of Law. This results into a little weaker boarding plan against Big Eldrazi, but I think this will be okay.


I think you were right with the critical thoughts about Dredge and Storm, which leads to the thoughts from above.

[Weapon X]

Dredge doesn’t care about what you’re doing and plays out of the yard. They only care about the card stopping them, like storm. Otherwise it’s possible for them to play around some answers, and good players will. Leyline won’t stop therapies for example. When they can stop it doesn’t matter, city of solitude can help those decks that don’t want to interact.

[jubeininja69]

Dredge doesn’t care about what you’re doing and plays out of the yard. They only care about the card stopping them, like storm. Otherwise it’s possible for them to play around some answers, and good players will. Leyline won’t stop therapies for example. When they can stop it doesn’t matter, city of solitude can help those decks that don’t want to interact.

do you have an updated sideboard for the post DRS ban?

[Weapon X]

At this point it’s still the same. Like most things that seem to have happened since I put this list together, people play whatever the “hot stuff” is and I’m already beating it.

[Nik842]

Hi,

Has anyone come up with a new decklist, or has anyone played the deck at any tournaments recently?

[Cpt-Qc]

Too many Grixis Control bs atm and that matchup is pretty bad so I'm staying away for now.

[Weapon X]

I’m still running the same. Wish I was able to play more. Life has a way of changing things.

[ClimbGneiss]

Anyone see Jody Keith's channel, NOLAGOLD, where he played white blue tax rack?

[Weapon X]

Nope.

[Cpt-Qc]

He played it again like 2 days ago? The deck didn't seem to perform very well though, I don't think he won a round in the league :tongue:

@Weapon X
Have you tried both stp and pte? I'm thinking of going to Path of Exile after being on swords for a while. Wondering if it helps activate land tax much (that's my main argument for being inclined to switch).

It does make Blood Moon worse but I think I might have been banking a little to much on that...

[Weapon X]

I really only used path. It made too much sense not to. At the time I first built it greedy mana bases were everywhere. In most cases it meant people didn’t even have a basic to find. Then with a tax in play some people would choose to not find a land to make sure it wouldn’t trigger. Like most things you sometimes fix an opponents mana, but the synergy with the deck is too great to ignore. I have pathed my own tokens for ramp or shuffle effects, but that is a rarity.

In general I would say any negatives are outweighed by the positives. Simply having a way to force tax activations is great, but recognizing matchup vs board state will help in decision making.

[Cpt-Qc]

Most people at my store run 3-4 basics since the drs ban. That's why I have not made the switch yet.

Different topic, I think 3x leyline is becoming a must. Discard and burn hurts us a lot so I feel we need more protection. Getting your bullet discarded sucks and T2 hymn sucks even more (hymn does become way worse the longer the game goes if you can activate land tax at least).

[H4rbinger]

I liked my 3-4 Leylines main! You generate often 6-8 dead cards on your opponent hands and you're safe of Jace's ultimate. Without the Leyline it is just a matter of time, that you get in trouble by bolts...

[Weapon X]

I’m more concerned with targeted discard, but it hasn’t been an issue for me to this point. Otherwise I already have zorb,ivory tower, trinisphere and confinement main. Sideboard I gain access to even more options. Burn should be close to a can’t lose.

[Telim Tor]

@Weapon X
Hi, do you think Parfait is better than Enchantress deck? some legacy examples:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21149&d=340992&f=LE
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/legacy-enchantress-the-most-beautiful-deck/

I was thinking to build an Enchantress deck because it seems fun, has a lot of common cards with Parfait and the ones lacking are not so expensive. The encanchtress card draw engine could be faster / more consistent than land tax + scroll rack?

Saludos amigo :smile:
>>>

[Weapon X]

I love enchantress, but I would say parfait is the better deck. The reason for this is simple, you need an enchantress for enchantress to work. Parfait doesn’t need the engine running to be good as it generally plays arbitrarily better cards. Just consider that enchantress needs to make 3 mana on turn 2 to potentially start its engine. That said both decks should win with their engine running as it’s really a quality v quantity situation.

As an aside I’d say the decks don’t really share anything outside of lands and possibly the poorly built helm versions (I’m adamant that enchantress wants black if it wants a helm win)

[kinda]

WU just got top 16 at the scg open: http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/128062.

[Cpt-Qc]

Yeah, saw that today. That's nice although there looks to be pretty dubious deckbuilding decisions in the list like 4 mox with only 18 lands.. that's super rough.

[aedemiel]

Looks like Mox Diamond's price will increase again sadly.

[kinda]

Yeah, saw that today. That's nice although there looks to be pretty dubious deckbuilding decisions in the list like 4 mox with only 18 lands.. that's super rough.

I'm guessing mox pitch land play land tax pass was a common play turn one on the play (with no land drop).

[Weapon X]

I’m guessing there was even more trade routes into mox. Surprised by no Jace

[Cpt-Qc]

Yeah, Jace is way better than teferi in most situations since he can protect you 3 times at least before biting the dust. In my versions of UW parfait I always play 1-2 jace. Teferi is more of a sideboard card.

[aedemiel]

Yeah, Jace is way better than teferi in most situations since he can protect you 3 times at least before biting the dust. In my versions of UW parfait I always play 1-2 jace. Teferi is more of a sideboard card.

List?

[Cpt-Qc]

List?

I don't have a stable one since I never found anything that felt good.

Something like this:

2 Helm of Obedience
3 Scroll Rack
3 Mox Diamond
2 Rest in Peace
1 Energy Field
3 Land Tax
1 Humility
3 Detention Sphere
1 Trade Routes
1 Counterbalance
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Back to Basics
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
9 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Island
1 Polluted Delta
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Supreme Verdict

1 Baneslayer Angel
2 Containment Priest
2 Search for Azcanta
1 Back to Basics
2 Flusterstorm
2 Negate
2 Spell Pierce
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
2 Council's Judgment

[Arcanis001]

...

This leaves us with this Decklist:

WU Land Tax


// 60 Maindeck
// 10 Artifact
4 Scroll Rack
4 Mox Diamond
2 Helm of Obedience
// 18 Enchantment
1 Web of Inertia
1 Trade Routes
4 Rest in Peace
4 Land Tax
2 Energy Field
1 Detention Sphere
3 Counterbalance
1 Humility
1 Back to Basics
// 13 Instant
3 Path to Exile
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
// 18 Land
3 Island
10 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra
// 1 Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Aegis of the Gods
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 1 Karmic Justice
SB: 1 Nevermore
SB: 3 Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 3 Force of Will
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels



What we want:

1. one cc5 spell MB to CB the Force maybe
Batterskull Sphere of Safety Sigil of the Empty Throne Future Sight ???

2. Damping Sphere
as soon this card comes out 1 will go SB to make our BIG Eldrazi Matchup better
for 1 P-Nodes or 1 E-Canonist or 1 AotG depends on the Meta

...
:




looks like somebody finally pick up the list and put it to an very strong 10/149 finish

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=30066&iddeck=254007

great job Landon Henderson can you say more about your tournament?

[aedemiel]

@Weapon X , regarding the list you posted here:
4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack...
can you explain a little bit your sideboard choices? Especially the Baneslayer and the Nahiri?
What do you think of Mistveil Plains?

Also, do you have any Tournament report/video?

[Weapon X]

Sadly no videos. I think I did some reports on salvation.

I think I posted my primer list so blasts seem fairly obvious. Lot of blue decks that don’t care about some of my prison pieces and gives more protection.
Leyline is mainly for storm. It’s more a way to slow them down. Most games that play at the parfait pace means we win.
Elspeth is another win con when needed. Also punishes people for boarding out creature removal.
Timely reinforcements is great against aggro decks. A life buffer plus speed bumps.
Aura of silence good against artifacts in general and the big decks.
Cannonist is basically storm hate plus a clock.
Councils for any random permanents.

Baneslayer is a super efficient win con that is castable. Firststrikes most common problems while giving a life buffer. Not really sure what else to say other then adding a creature to a creatureless deck creates hard boarding options for opponents.

Nahiri obviously gives us card filtering which pairs nicely with tax. Secondly a permanent source of removal. Thirdly, and not really important, but a win condition tutor.

I should find my deck because I don’t think I updated the sideboard here.

[Weapon X]

Looking through my deck I have another copy of rip in the board as well as a phyrexian revoker. That appears to be the only change I have missed. Hope that helps.

[PirateKing]

So I went 2-2 with a UW list similar to the 10th place SGC list last week at the store with only 4 Daze in the main as stack interaction. It just seemed wrong to establish massive card advantage and then have to sit there and watch Elves dump their deck and kill you. Is Force of Will the greedy? Daze is cute and plays with Land Tax sure, but past that it's typically a do-nothing card, just playing 4 copies of Oboro, Palace in the Clouds would have the same result in a majority of cases. Any UW players left to discuss?

[Weapon X]

Reasons I love orims chant right there. It really is underrated.

Not that I’m playing uw, but I think I would go chants main and some number of force board. I generally lean towards white as the main colour so whatever colour x is probably would be better to side in.

[PirateKing]

Orim's Chant always pulled me more into a Quinn-ward direction, but I can see the value you're suggesting. With the new EE land I was musing a Standstill variant to turtle-counter-turtle until the win is guaranteed, but it ended up being nothing but 2 & 3 copies of everything and had no consistency, much too greedy.

This week I think I'll trim the Dazes down and fit mainboard Force. Having E-Tutor for whatever bullet you need is the same amount of cards, but having the clean answer, especially after swapping out your whole hand in response to something, I'm just more comfortable with that. I'll update my thoughts after the fact.

[aedemiel]

Will you also test a playset of Oboro MD?
How many E-tutor do you play?
Anyway, good luck with your tests! Tell us how it went.

[PirateKing]

Will you also test a playset of Oboro MD?
How many E-tutor do you play?
Anyway, good luck with your tests! Tell us how it went.

The Oboro was more a joke how Daze returns a land but affects little else in a normal course of the game. I wouldn't seriously consider them in any list.
I run 2 Enlightened Tutors

[aedemiel]

Yeah, I assumed you were joking, but I genuinely thought you were gonna test them anyway.
2 Tutors doesn't seem a lot, but I guess it's fine with the cantrips of the blue version Modifier

[PirateKing]

Disappointing 0-3 with the deck.

Deck really felt like I was playing Pox: I played general hardships for my opponent, but never a clock. Further it played like it was essentially a Sorcery speed deck, so when they did land something I cared about, there was nothing I could do but hope to remove it, then eating a Force then slowly watch my locks get removed until the was over.

Gonna toy around with some different UW shells, maybe pivot back to Parfait in a few months.

Sorry it wasn't a better report

[studderingdave]

for whatever reason Parfait came to my mind today. i recall playing it in vintage in the early 2000's, with Sacred Mesa and such. It was a riot. I am glad to see it has a following still, I plan on remaking it now.

[aedemiel]

for whatever reason Parfait came to my mind today. i recall playing it in vintage in the early 2000's, with Sacred Mesa and such. It was a riot. I am glad to see it has a following still, I plan on remaking it now.

DO IT!
I'm personally in the process of foiling it.

[studderingdave]

i read through the entire thread over the past couple hours. Its interesting to see the progression of the deck. I have been out of MtG for a while but im jumping back in building legacy decks that i always liked. Since Parfait is pretty poor in vintage I will build for legacy instead. Does the mono white version still have game or is a splash required? I was pretty hardlining on mono w back in the day but i understand things change. I would rather play blood moon over Jace.

[Weapon X]

Great to hear. For what it’s worth when I first posted my list someone from k-runs group reached out to me so it got a vintage check mark as far as I’m concerned. The version I champion is similar enough to the vintage build/play style. Red is the preferred splash to help with blue hate and greedy mana while also helping in a secondary belcher win con. It very much plays a prison game with a combo finish. The deck is effectively mono white though so that should feel familiar. Hope that helps you out some. If not, question away.

[studderingdave]

wanna gimme your current deck list so i have something to build off of?

[Weapon X]

4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
3 Wrath Of God
4 Orim’s Chant
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Zuran Orb
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere
1 Ivory Tower
1 Pithing Needle
3 Mox Diamond

2 Rest In Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Goblin Charbelcher

3 Mountain
16 Plains

Sideboard
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Aura of Silence
1 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 phyrexian revoker
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Council's Judgement

[studderingdave]

4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
3 Wrath Of God
4 Orim’s Chant
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Zuran Orb
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere
1 Ivory Tower
1 Pithing Needle
3 Mox Diamond

2 Rest In Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Goblin Charbelcher

3 Mountain
16 Plains

Sideboard
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Aura of Silence
1 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 phyrexian revoker
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Council's Judgement

Awesome, looks great. Fairly similar to what i remember at least in spirit. No love for Isochron Scepter anymore?

[Weapon X]

I personally couldn’t justify it. The only card I would want on it is chant as the other options I feel lose value with the cost increase and don’t play well with trinisphere.

That said I know some people still play the no stick.

[K-Run]

Hi guys,

Nice to see that this thread is still going. I haven't played Parfait in a decade but I think about it from time to time. When a new spoiler is released, I still have the reflex of going through the white cards first, in case something would fit in mono-w control.

The new reprint of Beast Within in white sounds interesting for Parfait. Being able to target your own land to create a blocker sounds nice to my ears.

The new Mox might be a bit slow though. Diamond and Opal are just faster and more reliable.

[Weapon X]

Always good to hear from parfait royalty.

I cut an opal from my 3/1 split in favour of another land. Suspend mox doesn’t feel good simply by not being great with trinisphere. It may still be worth a spot over opal in my 3/1 split. I still really like the idea of mox diamond 4 not having an additional cost attached to it.

Haven’t seen much spoilers myself... a white beast within you say?

[aedemiel]

Haven’t seen much spoilers myself... a white beast within you say?

He's talking about Generous Gift https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/11/generous-gift

[Weapon X]

...yeah I looked at spoilers immediately after my post.

It does a lot of the things I want simply by being versatile. I think it may change my sideboard going forward.

@k-run: does ashtarall/frank ring any bells for you?

[aedemiel]

It does a lot of the things I want simply by being versatile.

I mean, under Humility it's a strict upgrade to O-ring.

[Weapon X]

It’s not a strict upgrade to o ring, especially when you need to mention another card.

I very much look at it from krun’s view. Using it on myself for a surprise blocker and possibly also getting more tax activations. The deck itself is quite anti creature; Having any of our permanents become a potential win condition is very intriguing.

[aedemiel]

It’s not a strict upgrade to o ring.

I beg to differ.
— I'ts instant speed.
— It can target lands.
— As you stated above it can give you a surprise blocker.
— It doesn't have any downside if you have Humility (or any lock really, which is the whole purpose of the deck).

On another subject, I do agree that the consensus for the new mox would be "It's too slow for us (or even for Legacy in general)".

[K-Run]

@k-run: does ashtarall/frank ring any bells for you?

No. Who is that supposed to be?

About Generous Gift over Oblivion Ring:

I don't think it's a strict upgrade for two reasons:

1) You can't fetch it with Enlightened Tutor;
2) Sometimes, it won't solve the problem (i.e destroying a 4/4 will create another creature that can be as fatal). O. Ring doesn't have this downside.

[aedemiel]

It just shows they're not exactly in the same spot. I think we might have to decide a split between the two in the futur.

Or play one of them in the Side.

[Weapon X]

K-run: I think it was 4 years ago he reached out to me when I first posted my parfait list. Said he was Québécois and played it at Carta Magica in Montreal. Was just curious if there was any lineage to him, you, and parfait.

As for the suspend mox it will see play, just doesn’t really fit in where we need it to. I could see an aggro red storm using it with living death for artifacts. It not being legendary is of note for sure.

[Telim Tor]

Hi, what do you think of Quarantine Field (https://shop.tcgplayer.com/magic/battle-for-zendikar/quarantine-field) instead Oblivion Ring? I see no downside, and if you have more mana, you could exile more permanents.....what are I missing?

Thanks

[Weapon X]

Mana cost is the real issue. 4 mana to tutor and play an o ring vs just casting field says a lot. 6 mana for 2 permanents is terrible. Efficiency is a hallmark of legacy, quarantine field doesn’t really offer that.

[Lemon]

How necessary are the mox diamonds in these lists? I've been wanting to get into legacy with a UW variant of this deck for a while now, but the mox are a little beyond my budget.

[Weapon X]

Lotus petal could work, but you really want the permanent mana. Opal can be a singleton, but Chrome is the next best option.

For budget friendly, play talismans. But do realize going into that option that the deck will function a little differently.

[K-Run]

For budget friendly, play talismans. But do realize going into that option that the deck will function a little differently.

What do you think of Fieldmist Borderpost (https://scryfall.com/card/arc/85/fieldmist-borderpost) as another budget option?

[Weapon X]

I’ve mentioned borderposts to a few people as a budget option, but I prefer talismans as they are useable immediately. The early turns are important, so while I like the synergy they offer, I don’t like the free turn they are potentially giving.

[Shamusj]

Hi all, I’m fairly new to this deck but have been playing Mtg since ‘96. I enjoy playing this deck in legacy probably more than any other (I’m mostly an ANT player). I play a UW build as I think Force of Will, Dovin’s Veto (seems so strong so far) and Daze are essential to give it a competitive edge. As well as energy field obviously.

I don’t bother with counterbalance anymore as it seems a little clunky as you really need two scroll racks out to make the most of it unless I’m playing it wrong haha.

Has anyone else tried UW recently?

[aedemiel]

Has anyone else tried UW recently?

Not only people tested it, but it was a little trend recently. Nolagold streamed it if you want to watch some replays.

I don't know about this version since I didn't test it. Like any UW control deck, I always feel like it's just a "weak miracles".
Parfait can get good results with the mono W version (obviously I'm completely overlooking the recent PWs with that statement).

Also, Dovin's Veto is nice, but I don't know if it's really, "that good".

[Shamusj]

I find this deck to be a glass cannon that can be hated on easily. Dovin’s Veto has put in some good work protecting the engine. In other situations it counters Jace’s.

Requiring only one blue also helps.

[Weapon X]

I’ve been playing Wr since the unbanning of tax and can tell you it’s extremely competitive. Blue does give access to some neat cards, but I think that also lends itself to taking away some of the strengths of mono white as immediately you want to play a “blue deck”. Chants and a tool box are part of the competitive edge especially when combined with blanking many of our opponents cards. The only glass cannon here is the pilot.

[aedemiel]

The only glass cannon here is the pilot.

Quote of the day.

[Shamusj]

Wow it got a little personal already, try not to be a tool about it as there’s already too few people playing legacy.

My win rate is decent as long as I can protect land tax and that’s my point. Without it, there is no engine. I’m a little unclear of the benefits of Wr over UW when Supreme Verdict is a strict upgrade over Wrath, and Back to Basics is probably superior to Blood moon. The rest of your deck is either single W mana or an artifact?

I’ll concede that I haven’t looked too deeply into your sideboard. Enlighten me.

[Weapon X]

The engine is great, it’s the reason to play parfait after all. You can win without the engine however, or you should be able to. Perhaps that’s why you went the blue route? The fact that the deck can contain so many must answer cards is an indirect strength.

The best reason for red is simply how little you need for such big/relevant plays. Blasts are reason number 1. Heavy blue makes it easy to take out bad cards for blast against most of the field. Blood moon is the main reason however. With everyone wanting to play greedy mana bases without basics a resolved bloodmoon means game against a lot of decks. Charbelcher is also a great secondary win condition that takes advantage of what we are trying to do anyway while also doubling as a colourless removal spell if needed against Iona for example. Having a single mountain means that we can potentially win with a 10 card library. Nahiri has also proved to be a great addition. The filtering alone is great but the removal is gravy.

I wouldn’t call supreme verdict a strict upgrade over wrath. Back to basics is far from superior to blood for obvious reasons. Not sure how to really comment on the rest. Sorry you felt attacked, but this is far from something like oops all spells (an actual glass cannon).

[Shamusj]

Interesting, thanks for your views. Why do you play Oblivion ring over Council’s judgement?

[aedemiel]

Why do you play Oblivion ring over Council’s judgement?
You can fetch O-Ring with E-tutor. That's part of the strengths of the toobox.

[Weapon X]

7 > 4

It is a big part of the tool box while being a card type that is not specifically targeted. Also maybe you’ve played against show and tell?

I do have a single council’s judgment in my sideboard but it is mainly there as an answer for something I can’t target. Most removal that I’m playing will not be dead simply by being versatile.

[aedemiel]

For this reason, shouldn't we switch the mana base to Snow-Covered and play some number of On Thin Ice instead of StP?

[Weapon X]

Well I play path, but that gives us instant speed removal that can benefit us and have no draw back at all on occasion. Also I play trinisphere as one of my bullets so the ability to have options on an opponents turn also can become relevant. Just imagine a 3sphere in play against delver for instance. An eot path on delver can create all kinds of lines and give potential info to us. Do they let it resolve because they can only play one spell? Is it their only pressure so they have to give you a free turn? In the end it’s an instant removal spell vs sorcery speed pseudo removal. I’d wager that if you think of what you’re removing you’ll probably see more value in the instant option. I would like on thin ice in a Quinn build more as I would think tutoring for a single creature removal spell seems bad when I’m already redundant in that area.

I think that actually highlights a strength of the deck itself. People will play weird against parfait. There are strong prison elements paired with blanking of opponents cards which also makes sideboarding challenging. On one hand we play a very linear game, but we can do it slow or fast. If we dictate the pace we want, we win.

[Pelikanudo]

@Weapon X,
Hi,
I am just building a Parfait deck in premodern format - I don't know if you know this format, but I love it.
this is my n.m iteration of the deck and I'd like you to give me some insights/opinion.
I would have love to build the deck with trinis as one of my iteraions of the deck in legacy, but trini no longer exists, so I built the deck based on you last iteration (also no RiP)
Context of meta:
Sligh(with anarchy), Survival, landstill, Enchantress, Goblins, devourer combo, Psychatog, rock with pernis...
in here there is no FoW!

there it goes the iteration:

// Lands
16 [7E] Plains (4)
2 [U] Mountain (1)

// Spells
1 [TE] Humility
4 [4E] Land Tax
4 [TE] Scroll Rack
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
3 [10E] Aura of Silence
4 [V10] Mox Diamond
3 [WL] Argivian Find
1 [AQ] Ivory Tower
1 [MI] Sacred Mesa
1 [C14] Tormod's Crypt
1 [AL] Soldevi Digger
1 [US] Planar Birth
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
1 [8E] Blood Moon
2 [8E] Wrath of God
1 [JU] Solitary Confinement
1 [6E] Armageddon

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [IA] Jester's Cap
SB: 2 [UD] Replenish
SB: 1 [C15] Aura of Silence
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 2 [IA] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [A25] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [B] Black Vise
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 1 [6E] Armageddon

NOTES:
- I really wanted a replacement for Moat, in this format would be great, but nothing exists - uniquely Santuary Island but don't know - Ibeleive the Sol. Confinament approach should should work but needs the Tax/Rck engine active.
- te armageddon main is great it acts as a pseudo balance, prefer it over Cataclysm
- really hated to have sowrds/wrath package, but well it seems quite evident to handle those lackeys / J.pup / echantress decree tokens, etc...
- don't know what to put in side vs gobs / sligh - thy side in apart of anarchy (replenish in her shines) a card that avoid prevention of dmage - so not sure if things like circles would help...
- bmoon is supposed to be a house, but still not tested - at least shuts down rishadan.
- love the old synergy of PBirth / SMesa... any other better option or diff?, in here by luck there is no surgical effects, just tormods. well if someone plays JCap then I will loose.
- at irst I tried a mix of Story Circle / Ivory mask / Sanctuary Isle, but SCircle is like all of these in 1, not sre if needed maybe 1IMask in side or like.
- not sure about so manye AOSilence but this card is usefull agains lot of the field and prevents Pernis if acumulated as in main I dont have a anwer to a resolved and activated perni (thought in -1 argician +1 replenish main, but not sure - argivian is the nuts, but armageddon also helps proactively vs this.)
- thought also in incuding at least 1 SerrasSantum, but not sure.

please let me know your thoughts. in this format this deck really has a lot of potential and is much funnier!

[NidStyles]

Sanctuary Island works.

You're deck outright loses to Pernious Dead and Abrupt Decay. Fine, I will post the other deck.

[Weapon X]

Isn’t land tax banned in that format?

[Pelikanudo]

Isn’t land tax banned in that format?
no it isn't,
look at this deck as example:
https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=28239&iddeck=230449

I don't like that agro iteration.
you'd love this format, there is no FoW no BS...
neither decay

@NidStyles, vs perni I've thought in AOSilence /Armageddon and KarmicJustice/Replenish from Side

[Weapon X]

Sorry, the ban list I saw was from a year ago. So with that said you can probably play the original vintage list. I’d consider peace keeper. Beyond that the legacy forum isn’t really the place to discuss an alternate format.

[Scott]

This got 7th at a 73-player tournament (https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31133&iddeck=266162) in Germany a weekend ago:

// Instants (10)
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Path to Exile
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm

// Enchantments (18)
1 Detention Sphere
1 Humility
1 Trade Routes
1 Web of Inertia
2 Back to Basics
2 Counterbalance
2 Energy Field
4 Land Tax
4 Rest in Peace

// Planeswalkers (4)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Narset, Parter of Veils

// Artifacts (10)
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Mox Diamond
4 Scroll Rack

// Lands (18)
1 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
9 Plains

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Karmic Justice
SB: 1 Nevermore
SB: 1 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 2 Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 3 Force of Will
SB: 1 Detention Sphere
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor

[PirateKing]

Congratulations!

What were your matchups?

[Scott]

Congratulations!

What were your matchups?

Oh I'm just posting the list; it wasn't me :smile:

[PirateKing]

Oh I'm just posting the list; it wasn't me :smile:

Oh I can't read. Great

[Lemon]

I've been running this build for a couple weeks now, and it feels very inconsistent. Sometimes I feel like it's impossible to lose, and other times I feel like there's nothing I can do. I've found it tends to struggle against tempo decks with lots of interaction. Do any of you guys see any cheap upgrades I might made to shore up the deck?


4 Rest in Peace
3 Energy Field
1 Web of Inertia
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
2 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Trade Routes
3 Scroll Rack
3 Land Tax
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
7 Island
7 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra

2 SB Greater Auramancy
1 SB Pithing Needle
2 SB Misdirection
2 SB Defense Grid
4 SB Leyline of Sanctity
1 SB Disenchant
1 SB Back to Basics
2 SB Counterbalance

[aedemiel]

I've found it tends to struggle against tempo decks with lots of interaction.

Well, I can imagine why. You're playing an extremely slow version and using Fieldmist Borderpost means you're just losing a turn. Just replacing these with Mod Diamond would be an improvement by itself.


Do any of you guys see any cheap upgrades I might made to shore up the deck?
Not really. This is Legacy.

[Weapon X]

If you are playing blue you are conceding that you want to combo ASAP with protection. Drop belcher for redundancy of helm. Jace would be a better secondary win con. Daze will give you some early game help

[Weapon X]

@lemon Is there a certain aspect of tempo that you’re having issues with?

[Lemon]

@lemon Is there a certain aspect of tempo that you’re having issues with?

Mainly that there seem to be a lot of bad top deck cards if that makes sense. For example, drawing a RiP, Scroll Rack, or Land Tax by itself feels really bad, especially in multiples. Then when they counter the second half of the combo I've found I'm hard pressed to keep up enough of a defense to rebuild.

I did try out the dazes, and I really enjoy them so far. I think I'm going to see if anyone local has some Enlightened Tutors I can borrow to try out, or maybe go to a red splash for World's Edge and try that route. Once the engine gets going the deck is bonkers, it just feels very lackluster without, so I'm hoping the Enlightened Tutors will help with that some.

[Weapon X]

The real draw to enlightened tutor is the ability to play silver bullets. Like you even said, the deck is bonkers when the engine is going, so the bullets let you get there. It’s actually why I don’t like the blue splash. Counters make the engine less relevant. Blue essentially makes you pure combo. The only reaction you need is on your winning turn. I play Wr so the engine helps recoup all the inherit card disadvantage that we play. Combined with prison/bullet elements you gain inevitablity. The longer the game goes the more you are assured to win. Blue should make you more of a laser beam. You can be more focused and protect yourself which isn’t really what the parfait engine lends itself too. Maybe just keeping this in mind will help you against tempo.

[Lemon]

The real draw to enlightened tutor is the ability to play silver bullets. Like you even said, the deck is bonkers when the engine is going, so the bullets let you get there. It’s actually why I don’t like the blue splash. Counters make the engine less relevant. Blue essentially makes you pure combo. The only reaction you need is on your winning turn. I play Wr so the engine helps recoup all the inherit card disadvantage that we play. Combined with prison/bullet elements you gain inevitablity. The longer the game goes the more you are assured to win. Blue should make you more of a laser beam. You can be more focused and protect yourself which isn’t really what the parfait engine lends itself too. Maybe just keeping this in mind will help you against tempo.

This was very helpful. I've been playing the deck like a UW Control list, almost like landstill. Do you have an up to date WR list I could look at? The pillow fort\prison element was what drew me to UW in the beginning.

[aedemiel]

@Weapon X :
Same question than Lemon, did you change your list with the W&6/Oko meta?

[Weapon X]

BDI parfait
16 plains
3 mountains
3 mox diamond

2 helm of obedience
2 rest in peace
1 goblin charbelcher
4 land tax
3 scroll rack
1 zuran orb

4 path to exile
4 orim’s chant
3 wrath of god
3 oblivion ring
4 enlightened tutor
1 blood moon
1 ghostly prison
1 solitary confinement
1 pithing needle
1 humility
1 trinisphere
1 ivory tower

Sideboard
1 Baneslayer angel
1 phyrexian revoker
2 ethersworn cannonist
1 elspeth Knight-errant
1 Nahiri, the harbinger
2 red elemental blast
2 leyline of sanctity
2 timely reinforcements
1 aura of silence
1 rest in peace
1 council’s judgement



I do still run my splits on some cards, but this makes for easier typing and reading. Otherwise good ole rock. Nothing beats rock.

[aedemiel]

I guess Parfait is still looking for an efficient way get rid of PWs (ie: better than O-ring).

[Weapon X]

O ring and needle are the main ways game 1 so a more efficient way would be great. Game 2 combat can become an option among others. Councils judgement is probably the most useful card

[sco0ter]

I just read The Parameter of Land Tax in Legacy (https://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-the-parameters-of-land-tax-in-legacy/) and the author was pretty positive on Tax Rack ("will be a very successful deck") and got me excited to build the deck.

Now I came here and I wonder why this thread is still in the new/developmental forum after such a long time, which makes me feel that it's no "real" competitive deck, even after seven years of developing.
Isn't Tax Rack as good as the article made it or why isn't this deck considered an "established" deck?

[Weapon X]

I haven’t read that article, but I’ve claimed this deck viable since the unbanning of tax. To me it’s more a player base issue. Mono white, especially creatureless, is considered bad by the masses so why even play it when you can play blue? In the end it’s a fringe deck that can put up numbers, but it has zero to minimal representation globally. Combine that with it having punishing decision trees at times also means you need skilled players piloting it to have a chance to shine.

[beebles_elbow]

Hello All!
Long time lurker first time poster. I've been working on Parfait for a long time and I've tried to push the deck into a new interesting direction just to add my own spice to the deck building options.
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/chickpea-stew/?cb=1573103837

Here's my current deck list:

Land

2x Forest

4x Grove of Burnwillows

3x Lotus Field

5x Mountain

6x Plains

Sorcery

2x Life from the Loam

2x Sevinne's Reclamation

3x Terminus <

Planeswalkers

2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance

1x Wrenn and Six

Enchantment

4x Land Tax

3x Oblivion Ring <

3x Seismic Assault

1x Sylvan Library

4x Enlightened Tutor

4x Path to Exile

4x Punishing Fire

3x Mox Diamond

1x Mox Opal

3x Scroll Rack

-------------------------

I would describe this as a weird mid-range combo deck and I'm pretty happy with most of the design of this deck. Terminus and O-Ring I feel are the weakest links in the deck particularly against aggro / counterspell decks. The combination of Tax / Rack / Seismic Assault / Lotus Field / Sevinne's Reclamation are pretty strong and almost inevitable even against most counterspell decks given a long enough timeline. I also like the fact that I don't need Tax to hit the board in this parfait deck to run which is a crutch in many parfait decks. Seismic Assault / Loam / W6 are strong on their own right without Land Tax. I also like the fact that I can slowly recur land into my deck using Life from the Loam and Scroll Rack whilst drawing new cards. Furthermore, with a resolved Land Tax and Seismic Assult with a Life from the Loam in hand I can smash 12 damage in 1 turn. Chandra and Punishing Fire help add extra win conditions as well as provide additional sources of direct damage / mana / synergies. There are other synergies in the deck that are also quite nice that I don't really need to speak to.

So I'm basically looking for any suggestions for replacing Terminus &or Oblivion Ring as well as sideboard choices.

Terminus is only really good with Scroll Rack and can be hard cast with my sources of mana and is sometimes nice when it shows up unexpectedly. O-Ring is basically good with E-tutor and Sevinne's Reclamation and can target walkers as well as artifacts and enchantments but can be a slow investment that sucks when countered since it can only be cast on your turn.

I would happily consider any suggestions that could add value to the already present synergies or outside of the box alternative plans that could present interesting directions for the deck.

*Note: color and mana cost concerns- I have found between Land Tax, Lotus Field, and Mox Diamond I can nearly always cast the cards in my hand with little or no problems. It does make you susceptible to color problems at times with a bad hand. Luckily, London mulls help greatly in this regard and usually I have a card or two I'm happy to deposit at the bottom of my deck such as an O-ring or Terminus.

[Weapon X]

The whole reason for the parfait engine is to gain incremental advantage over the course of the game. It just feels out of place with what you seemingly want to do. Enlightened tutor also feels like a wasted slot. Seismic assault feels like a trap all the time, I’d sooner run borborygmos as a one card engine/win con based on what you’re attempting.

Terminus is replaceable by wrath. Oring could be councils judgment.

[aedemiel]

//list


First I really like the fact that you're trying to take Tax/Rack into a new direction and that's cool.
There are several cards I would like to mention:
— Lotus Field. I find this choice bold and interesting, considering it makes you lose a turn and it leaves you stone cold dead to Blood Moon. But I can see the appeal in a Land Tax deck.
— Seismic Assault : Like Weapon X said, it looks like a trap. :r::r::r: is quite a lot in a three-colors deck and it doesn't kill fast enough. There are probably better things to do in this spot.
— Sevinne's Reclamation . I really like this one. I do believe this is Legacy playable and you might have find the best deck for it.

Also, I like what you're trying to do with the Pws (Chandra and W&6). And since PWs strategies are at an all-time high, I wonder if there wouldn't be a way to bring Parfait into a planewalkers-heavy version, with Pws we don't see in Legacy enough because too expensive (Nahiri, the Lithomancer comes to mind). Grind machines are the best way to get incremental advantage after all.

That being said, I do agree with Weapon X. The longer the game last, the best you engine becomes, and it especially fit a deck that tries to lock the opponent out of the game. Your version seems a bit out of place, or rather, it looks like a Naya lands.dec where you just added the Parfait engine.

[beebles_elbow]

First I really like the fact that you're trying to take Tax/Rack into a new direction and that's cool.
There are several cards I would like to mention:
— Lotus Field. I find this choice bold and interesting, considering it makes you lose a turn and it leaves you stone cold dead to Blood Moon. But I can see the appeal in a Land Tax deck.
— Seismic Assault : Like Weapon X said, it looks like a trap. :r::r::r: is quite a lot in a three-colors deck and it doesn't kill fast enough. There are probably better things to do in this spot.
— Sevinne's Reclamation . I really like this one. I do believe this is Legacy playable and you might have find the best deck for it.

Also, I like what you're trying to do with the Pws (Chandra and W&6). And since PWs strategies are at an all-time high, I wonder if there wouldn't be a way to bring Parfait into a planewalkers-heavy version, with Pws we don't see in Legacy enough because too expensive (Nahiri, the Lithomancer comes to mind). Grind machines are the best way to get incremental advantage after all.

That being said, I do agree with Weapon X. The longer the game last, the best you engine becomes, and it especially fit a deck that tries to lock the opponent out of the game. Your version seems a bit out of place, or rather, it looks like a Naya lands.dec where you just added the Parfait engine.


Thanks for some positive feedback :)
Although I don't feel a need to argue the merits of Seismic Assault, I have been testing the deck for quite some time and I feel Lotus Field is pretty amazing in the deck. It can't be targeted and if someone (including you) Moon's it you wind up fetching your colors off of Land Tax anyways so really it doesn't actually slow you down to any degree; particularly if you wait to play it at the end of turn after you've resolved a Land Tax, or spells for turn, or just wind up pitching it to Mox Diamond. Most players (Delver) if they let you resolve Land Tax it is off of the assumption that you have a greedy land base and need lots of lands whilst they can sit there happy with 1 or two land. I think there is merit in just about any Parfait deck as a 1-of way of reducing land creep without wasting a card slot, increasing mana base, meanwhile allowing for color fixing. And did I mention it gives you three? So yeah tap a land resolve Trinisphere, tap a land resolve Ghostly Prison.... Even in Weapon X's Parfait build I could see fit for a 1-of Lotus Field.

Sevinne's Reclamation is strong for Parfait because it allows you recur directly into play, and it sucks to have to waste counterspells on such a card. Particularly since you can flashback two copies and will have to counter both to keep the thing off of the battlefield. This allows for more streamlining deck building design (if combo is your thing), as well as provides additional information about the opponent when you attempt to cast SR. So paying 5 for flashback is pricey but not if it allows you to continue building towards your overall strategy. If you are playing a 2-card combo or prison style Parfait I feel SR is a necessity somewhere in the 75 (assuming your main pieces are all 3 cmc or less). Obviously its not as great if you main RIP, but you could reduce the count of RIPs with SR.

[Weapon X]

The thing there is that if a delver player lets you resolve a tax it’s because they can play their deck off of 1 land. So you may get one activation of tax if you’re lucky. That’s why I play trinisphere. Legacy is all about that stream lined efficiency so trinisphere can force land drops and thus tax activations. Even if it just slows the game down a touch, that gives us time to slowly close the door.

Lotus field feels an even bigger trap then seismic assault. Lands are our main resource after all so sacrificing them to play a land that doesn’t really benefit us seems like a bad idea.

Sevinnes reclamation seems good. It does not slot well into the rip/helm plan, both cards of which have merit beyond their combo potential. I could see it with the approach the second sun plan I had considered. That build could very easily be mono white and play some of the cuter cards like lotus field.

[aedemiel]

The thing there is that if a delver player lets you resolve a tax it’s because they can play their deck off of 1 land. So you may get one activation of tax if you’re lucky. That’s why I play trinisphere. Legacy is all about that stream lined efficiency so trinisphere can force land drops and thus tax activations. Even if it just slows the game down a touch, that gives us time to slowly close the door.

Lotus field feels an even bigger trap then seismic assault. Lands are our main resource after all so sacrificing them to play a land that doesn’t really benefit us seems like a bad idea.

Sevinnes reclamation seems good. It does not slot well into the rip/helm plan, both cards of which have merit beyond their combo potential. I could see it with the approach the second sun plan I had considered. That build could very easily be mono white and play some of the cuter cards like lotus field.

The more I think about this, the more I think you're right.
Playing Lotus Field means you are forced to play your lands within the first 2 turns, meaning you will probably lose a Tax activation.
Like beebles_elbow says, maybe it's playable as a 1-of but it's still a dead card in the first two turns and it looks terrible in the opening hand.

Yeah, Sevinne's Reclamation looks nice on paper, but I think we don't want to play that right now. Especially since RiP is so good against so many stuff on the field and Helm is still the best "Oops-I-win" button in Legacy.
However the card could be powerfull enough to play with differents strategies.
What was you Second Sun build?

[Weapon X]

I never really fleshed it out, but the prospect of playing 2 approach for a win con felt extremely powerful with the parfait engine. I think it also opens up the deck to sol lands which I don’t feel are otherwise needed. I saw it as a more spell based build that takes greater advantage of the classic no stick. Essentially the prison elements become pure control. The engine is there more so to help recover from the 1 for 1 attrition.

[crispymelee]

Along with Dreadstill, Parfait was another deck that I always admired from afar but never played. It'll be awhile before I can build the list on paper, but had some questions ideas for the Parfait regs, based on Weapon X's list a few posts back. Been reading back through this thread, have made it back to late 2018 so far.

From what I understand, Parfait uses Land Tax/Scroll Rack similar as a card drawing engine, then uses that card advantage to answer threats and slowly lock opponents out, then combo out (3sphere, PtE, GPrison, Humility and team -> Helm/Belcher). Thinking about the Surgical Extraction test, what does the deck do without the engine?


1. Experience with Scroll of Fate in Dreadstill makes me believe that it is a fantastic single-card engine to turn dead and sub-optimal draws into a resource. Given the "silver-bullet" nature of Parfait, I would assume that there are many times in G1 where cards (redundant Taxes, lands, dead bullets) may just sit in hand. Weakens Ivory Tower, but strengthens Humility.

-1 Land Tax/ +1 Scroll of Fate

2. Does Karn, the Great Creator not have a place in this deck in the main? He randomly hates on problematic artifacts, can give redundancy to combo pieces by hiding them in the sideboard, and turns off enemy moxen/forces them to play more lands; seems like a natural pairing if the intent of Parfait is to slow things down. With no Wasteland, pairing him with Liquimetal Coating out of the side enables him to snipe lands if Tax no longer needs to be activated and makes him a finisher in his own right that is immune to Decay. There's the obvious Mycosynth Lattice pairing that's possible, but that seems excessive with so many prison elements already in place.

- 1 Wrath, -1 Ivory Tower or Zorb / +2 Karn

SB:
- Liquimetal
- Ensnaring Bridge (if Scroll is Main)
- 13 slots whatever you need for your meta, 11 if you hide redundant Helm/Charbelcher.

Just some off hand thoughts I had while reading the thread, I've done no testing of the above cards in a Parfait list, only speaking from experience with their use in Dreadstill. Keep alive the (mostly) MonoW dream!

[kombatkiwi]

Without any Dreadnought/Morph synergy Scroll of Fate doesn't seem very good.
If you draw a situational card the plan is to use the Rack/Tax engine to shuffle it away. If you want to play a 3 mana permanent that makes 2/2s then why not just aim for 1 more mana and play Gideon Ally of Zendikar for example

Karn seems like an okay idea but it's still a deck with no Sol Lands or acceleration except Diamond, and putting tutor bullets in the sideboard either makes E-Tutor worse or now you have e.g. 1 Zuran Orb main and 1 Zuran Orb side which cuts into your deck space quite a lot

[Weapon X]

I just want to quote one line from you, “redundant taxes.”

Taxes stack. It seems like the world forgets that. That makes ivory tower better when you add six cards to your 7 card hand and makes rack digging better. All cards in the deck act as a resource because of scrol rack.

And to touch on surgical: rest in piece. But I actually used to build with regard to meddling mage. That’s why there are similar cards like REB and pyroblast in my list. That said our card quality is strong so we do too deck we’ll. But by playing toolbox you are always open to drawing the wrong card at the wrong time. That’s where redundancy on key cards fits.

Also to reiterate. The biggest strength of parfait is its ability to blank a lot of your opponents cards.

[Cpt-Qc]

It's been a while since I last played but I feel trimming etutor is the way to go. When you get matched against a counterspell deck you often run out of things to jam. Daze is often a hard counter as we can either pay 1 and not be able to cast our threat or don't pay it and bet opp has no more counters. Karn seems like a good compromise as it's still a tutor but not card disadvantage. It's probably safe to play 2 of it main without needing ancient tomb.

In today's meta I would also run 3 rip maindeck since you want it quite often on T2 without spending a tutor.

[crispymelee]

/snip


/snip

Thank you both for the insight. I have no problem admitting I know next to nothing about this particular archetype and was more or less posting initial reactions to modern lists. There's no reason for me to have missed that Taxes stack but there you have it.

I understand that adding U essentially is an admission you're trying to combo-off as fast as you can, which pushes the deck in a different direction. I'll put up a different list over the weekend with your comments in mind.

[kombatkiwi]

It's been a while since I last played but I feel trimming etutor is the way to go. When you get matched against a counterspell deck you often run out of things to jam. Daze is often a hard counter as we can either pay 1 and not be able to cast our threat or don't pay it and bet opp has no more counters. Karn seems like a good compromise as it's still a tutor but not card disadvantage. It's probably safe to play 2 of it main without needing ancient tomb.

In today's meta I would also run 3 rip maindeck since you want it quite often on T2 without spending a tutor.

In my experience testing a non-parfait enchantments deck this seems accurate
Playing so many cards that are minus-1 on resolution (tutor) is a risky proposition and I imagine it's very hard to dig yourself out of that hole if the opponent can disrupt your landtax engine

[drmarkb]

Hello all. Since the MTGS thread is only Weapon X and me, thought I would post my current list and thinking. Have not parfaited for a while till recently, and I finally bought it out this week in a local FNM and it won me a foil oko (well a premium promo pack with the Oko in).

Thoughts- always enjoyed R splash, but I am always prepared to drop sacred cows - I even dropped swords down to 1 and 2 when my meta became oddly full of nothing but Miracles.
Anyway those days are gone.

Thoughts on today
(1) Oko is everywhere, so multiple answers to OKO are needed. Enchantments are at an all time high in terms of usability, artifacts less so. Humility is especially good.
(2) Astrolabe is everywhere
(3) Veil of summer is insanely good, but it is useless against us.
(4)Blood moon is at an all time nadir- Astrolabe says - "so what?"
(5) Bin removal is very strong now
(6) walkers are at an all time high-karn gtc, teferi, oko

The top combo decks are Depths, SnT, Storm, Dredge, Reanimator
The top control decks are 4 c good stuff
the beatdown decks are the usual crew minus dragon stompy as moon is just not pulling its weight.


here is my list.
I have tried a green rather than red splash

Veil is nuts, and I have cut one orim's for it, giving 5 ways to force the combo through. This slightly helps the card disadvantage we suffer too, replacing itslelf and getting an effect in one form or other.

I have put 3 city of traitors in, I used to have two and never regretted, it saves on fiddle border posts and brings the combo on earlier than they expect. It also can help manage the land count for land tax.
Chalice is always an issue, I run 3 O ring effects main, and the cities help land those 4cc haymakers early, meaning I don't have as much at 1cc as I have in some other builds.

My other green splash is a solitary sylvan, which can again grab some of our disadvantage back and there are a few shuffle effects.

Karn is especially powerful, I use two, and wonder on a third. The only reason I do not have it is because I don't want to put too many eggs in one basket against revoker decks, but it means I never run out of helms if he is active and RIP is down. He also gives a massive wishboard to hurt OKo.
He shuts off astrolabe, of course, but the main use is yet more combo material and even more versatile control, as well as animating chalice, giving 5 main deck ways of killing chalice.

Abrupt decay/Trophy in response to the combo has been very prevalent in my meta, and Veil helps here. I literally know that in whatever ten-fifteen-twenty player event in whichever city I will face a couple of dnt where veil useless, the odd goblins once in a blue moon, the odd chalice/eldrazi or stax decks and everything else will have discard, decay or counters, especially the former.

I have a lot of depths, and run 2 karakas, I would love to crop rotate but I don't have a good enough land package, and already have a karn wish package.

9 plains
1 forest
2 windswept heath
2 karakas
1 savannah
3 city of traitors

4 mox diamond

4 land tax
4 swords to plowshares
3 orim's chant
2 veil of summer
3 enlightened tutor
1 cursed scroll

1 sylvan library
4 rest in peace
3 scroll rack
1 sorcerous spyglass

1 banishing light
1 oblivion ring
1 gideon, of the trials
1 phyrexian unlife

1 cast out
1 moat
2 humility
2 karn, the great creator
1 helm of obedience
1 elspeth, knight errant

board
4 leyline of sanctity (storm, painter, burn, pox, depths)
1 choke (4 col good stuff, show/tell, and miracles, delver etc.)
1 rule of law (elves, storm, omni-tell, belcher, bomberman, food chain etc.)
1 peacekeeper (I used to have two for those matches where a deck won't bring in removal like Infect, but now Oko says no to often, so it is for reanimator, oko-less elves etc.)
1 kor haven (for matches where they have karn, as an extra land, and for depths, maverick, d n t, infect)
wish board
1 pithing needle
1 trinisphere
1 cursed totem
1 zuran orb
1 torpor orb
1 mycosynth lattice
1 helm of obedience


In most games, Gideon, Elpseth, Phyrexian Unlife, are on the chopping block, and then scroll, swords depending. Unlife I only keep as I see a lot of 20/20s, sometimes one sneaks through before it is dealt with.
Orings are very versatile, and the ability to cast them t2 is invaluable, and thanks to Mox + city it happens a lot.

I often board in the totem/needle effects, sometimes leylines, but normally leave the one helm/lattice sideboard. Trinisphere rarely comes in, but it does work from the board.

As ever, the deck can deal with everything, and right now Humility, O rings, Rule of law are especially strong. I have tried to add a bit less disadvantage in with Sylvan and Veil.

The best match ups are as ever show and tell, depths is better than ever, d n t good, reanimator RB can be too fast, and storm as usual is about orims, Karn, and now veil until boarding. The miracles match (bant miracles) is easier than it was as the old UW or UWr counterbalance match. Those astrolabes can hurt them when Karn comes down early and they have not got the correct mana at the right time.

Elspeth is still there from the old build, no longer with Nahiri as there is no red. She adds pressure and it has to be said, once in a blue moon gives an animated trinisphere or whatever a +3+3 and flying when humility is down. Fun times.
Wishing you all a happy Christmas.

[Cpt-Qc]

Green seems very interesting since veil indeed. You might think about adding City of Solitude to replace 3ball (stronger and also immune to oko/shatter effects).

You could probably run 3x chant and 3x veil maindeck. Worst case scenario they let you push through lock pieces and best case they draw you a card while doing so.

[drmarkb]

Green seems very interesting since veil indeed. You might think about adding City of Solitude to replace 3ball (stronger and also immune to oko/shatter effects).

You could probably run 3x chant and 3x veil maindeck. Worst case scenario they let you push through lock pieces and best case they draw you a card while doing so.

The main issue with city is that I play the deck as a control deck as much as a combo deck- it is a versatile deck which is the beauty- often running out hate pieces, the draw engine combo, and o ring effects before going for the win, unless veil/orim's is in hand to force it, and I have a number of effects at instant speed that often get deployed in that style- control the game then win- 3 tutor, although they are often cast post tax search, cast out potentially, orim'sx3 , 2 veil, 4 swords and potentially bluffing crop rotation too, even though I do not run it. If I took the orim's out and brought in city against blue decks, that would work, I am not sure if I don't prefer Veil against a lot of decks, and veil is not good with it. 3sphere certainly does not often come in against a lot of decks you would expect it to, ones that it was an auto include when it was R splash, and normally nowadays it stays in the karn wishboard.
Rule is often better than 3sphere against storm and certain combo, although I will bring in both against combo, but against 4 colour oko I bring in just choke for the dead unlife, leaving in elspeth, gideon that are quite weak against a lot of decks but decent against 4 colour control.
I am definitely considering 3 Veil, kor haven in the board feels wrong. I know that with one forest, 2 fetch, 1 savannah, 4 mox d I can support 2 veil. with one fewer fetches I can only support one at best, which is how haven ended up in the board. I used to dread miracles but bant miracles and snow control are much better with karn in my deck.

[Telim Tor]

gideon, of the trials is interesting, vs wich decks it shine more? never hear of it in this thread...sorry my bad english

[drmarkb]

gideon, of the trials is interesting, vs wich decks it shine more? never hear of it in this thread...sorry my bad english

Gideon works against different decks in different ways. It is a quite good card in a lot of situations.

Against certain combo decks a t2 gideon buys a turn via the emblem. Belcher is an example, the two storm decks others, where having him down means they have to win the game and then deal with him.

Against control decks his job is to threaten enemy walkers. Just having him down can mean you cab use the orims to blank spells, forcing through damage from Gideon in the same turn as dropping a combo piece. Cards like Lilly LH and OTV are pressured by it.
A 4cc Jace has to +2 to get out of range, and +2 is not the best against a L tax/scrack/sylvan deck anyway. Potentially with Karn turning things and with Elspeth in some combination, most walkers can be pressured at least, and the switch on/off ability and careful play can really make them hard to remove. This is why one must be careful with Moat.


Against beatdown decks like Eldrazi and Infect it is good at buying time.

It really is just a flexible card. Game two it comes out quite often.

The main use is probably pressurising Walkers.

[drmarkb]

Gideon works against different decks in different ways. It is a quite good card in a lot of situations.

Against certain combo decks a t2 gideon buys a turn via the emblem. Belcher is an example, the two storm decks others, where having him down means they have to win the game and then deal with him.

Against control decks his job is to threaten enemy walkers. Just having him down can mean you cab use the orims to blank spells, forcing through damage from Gideon in the same turn as dropping a combo piece. Cards like Lilly LH and OTV are pressured by it.
A 4cc Jace has to +2 to get out of range, and +2 is not the best against a L tax/scrack/sylvan deck anyway. Potentially with Karn turning things and with Elspeth in some combination, most walkers can be pressured at least, and the switch on/off ability and careful play can really make them hard to remove. This is why one must be careful with Moat.


Against beatdown decks like Eldrazi and Infect it is good at buying time.

It really is just a flexible card. Game two it comes out quite often.

The main use is probably pressurising Walkers.


Played Parfait at fnm last night to a 3-1 record.
r4 beat Bant snow-oko miracles
r3 beat aggro pox
r2 lost to depths
r1 beat show and tell

Gideon did a lot of work in the s and t g2, with the board nearly locked via 2x humility, needle, 3 sphere, rule of law (both vs the active omniscience) effects etc, a boarded keranos was eating life, circumventing Humility as it was not a critter, and gideon dealt with it until I could execute the win. It also was relevant against Miracles g1 and 3, which I won in on t4 executing the combo, but only after gideon had removed my opponent's chance of beating me to death with active food tokens.
Elspeth was again v decent in the miracles match, coming down to finish an Oko that had nerfed scroll rack, and using up valuable resources.
Sadly I was outplayed in the depths match, both on the board- I could have won G2 had I chosen the correct Karn option- and the boarding- the match is harder than regular build of medium depths as it has something like 9 or 10 kill spells for lock pieces after boarding- 4 decay, 4 trophy and even golgari charms.

Karn is still amazing, and the veils are obscenely good even if situational. 2 humility is the way forward in an oko world.

[PirateKing]

Idea: UWg Parfait with Astrolabe, Oko & Veil

Thoughts: Daze was fun, but Veil is better. City of Traitors always worked well with Land Tax, and City also works well with Astrolabe to power out a Teferi or Oko on turn 2. City also helps playing Karn, and it's worth a copy of Liquimetal Coating in the side, which coupled with Oko allows for Elking any permanent. 6 mana for Lattice is very possible as well. So whole deck seems to have lots of powerful permanents orbiting each other in ways that do you well.

Problems: The deck is way too full. Right now Jace, Narset, Teferi, Karn & Oko all want to resolve, and I think some disciplined cuts might make a single, better game plan flourish. If it does become just "Planeswalker Control the Deck", Energy Field & Web of Inertial starts to wane in usefulness.

Thoughts welcome

[jubeininja69]

Someone posted a link to a "tiramisu" primer on Reddit:

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/tiramisu-trinispherekarn-parfait/

What do you guys think?

[drmarkb]

Someone posted a link to a "tiramisu" primer on Reddit:

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/tiramisu-trinispherekarn-parfait/

What do you guys think?

I prefer City of T over Tombs- they work better with land tax - the deck can grind and the lands get tapped a lot.

I used to play Zuran main until Karn GTC- at that point it is a sideboard card for me. Never looked back. Karn into zuran on the same turn is a great line sometimes- the zuran won't get dazed if Karn did not.

Ivory tower and Zuran's life gain are basically redundant against fast combo, and redundant against control- you can't beat a monastery mentor crew for very long with them, you beat those cards by removing them. Life gain is useful against Delver and DS tempo type lists, but Parfait has a decent match there anyway- or at least ones not running tombs do. Zuran's main use is in getting the scrack/LT combo going. I am wondering if the deck could use Mox opal over Grim monolith with a few tweaks. Tower is troubling for me nowadays- the deck has no issues when Land tax/Scrack is working, and when land tax is not working tower does nothing. I like the Zuran/Tower but in a Karn world I would not maindeck Tower ever. In the current meta Karn is everywhere, so I would like to see more ways of winning and removing opposing karns, because opposing Chalice and Karn will be GG in short order.

No Orims' I can understand- it is a superb card when forcing the combo through and superb against enemy combo, and can buy a key turn against so much- I can see E tutor into DS doing a similar role there in terms of shutting down a storm style deck. I will always play Orim's myself in some number. It is less efficient when Trinisphere is down, so I can see why this list cuts it.

Wasteland is interesting- it opens up the self waste plan to switch on a scrack/LT combo, but generally wasting enemy lands is not working with LT, and Humility Painter is a nonbo if Humility is down first.

With this list I wonder if RW painter offers more tricks/tech to be borrowed, I am not that familiar with that deck in today's meta.

I think Karn and Sol lands are the way ahead for the deck, regardless of splash and builds. It needs soem combo too- RIP helm, painter or even Opalescence/Wave or Solemnity/Depths.

[Weapon X]

I have issues with him starting by saying white doesn’t have card advantage. That’s wrong. Wrath is card advantage. Tax is card advantage by itself. This makes him seem unreliable to me.

[drmarkb]

He says Land Tax rectifies the lack of CA, so clearly for some reason he is not referring to Land Tax as part of white in general, and suggesting LT runs against white's natural lack of CA.

I think he means card draw rather than advantage.
Balance was a poster child for white CA, and mass removal in general was very white as noted. Cards that say X can't be cast e.g. Nevermore or similar can be CA too. Karn can be CA.

I once played a bug player who commented on me effectively drawing 6 a turn, saying his brainstorms seemed a bit weak in comparison.

[drmarkb]

Added another 3-1 FNM performance, 3rd from 15.

Beat Bant Miracles 2-1, in turns from 1-0 down. Lost the first to an Oko, basically, needed to dig with scrack and get lucky to resolve a Moat- got the moat but not the land I needed, i would have had the game had I got it as he was out of cards nearly.
Beat D n t, 2-0 which was only a little close in game 2, it is an easy match if they don't know all your tricks.
Lost to infect, which was close game 1, really needed a faster start- I had to develop a board vs Oko IIRC, thought I was fine having whittled the opposing hand down by requiring a huge number of things to be forced, but died tapped out with a sword in hand as he brainstormed to get the beserk/invigorate. Perhaps I was gambling a bit. Game 2 I opened with Skite via Mox t1 , and Peacekeeper soon after. A force of vigor happened then on my Mox/Sklite, my next drop was to be Karmic Justice, which would have been cool. Failed to draw a STP, Moat or Tutor and was nibbled to death v slowly after Oko munched a peacekeeper.....
Beat UR delver, 2-0 iirc, him being unfortunate game 1 with poor draw/mulligans, although the match is generally favourable. Elspeth and Gideon did work in this one, most of the good stuff being countered.

[drmarkb]

My current list. With no paper mtg since September ( I did not play Parfait anyway then), I have done very little- I use X mage to play with friends, and that is about it. That said I feel that Parfait is a deck that needs updating both to match the expected and actual meta. I normally play it in a 30-40% blue meta, with a disproportionate amount of unfair combo and chalice decks, but I always like to try and get a build I am happy with for a bluer more MTG-O-KO meta as it has become, even if I will play far fewer blue piles when and if paper restarts.

My current build
2 ancient tomb
1 city of traitors
9 plains
1 forest
1 savannah
2 windswept heath
2 karakas
1 maze of ith
4 mox diamond
1 zuran orb

4 land tax
4 swords to plowshare
2 veil of summer
2 orim's chant
3 enlightened tutor

1 sorcerous spyglass
4 rest in peace
1 sylvan library
3 scroll rack

1 oblivion ring
2 gideon of the trials

3 karn, the great creator
2 humility
1 moat
1 helm of obedience
1 cast out

board
wish board-
1 zuran orb
1 juntu stakes
1 meekstone
1 helm of obedience
1 mycosynth lattice
1 torpor orb
1 pithing needle
1 ethersworn canonist

3 holy light
1 ghostly prison
1 deafening silence
1 choke
1 nine lives


2 cards I am always considering
crop rotation- because of rotate into karakas/maze. This would necessitate a likely additional land base change to include wasteland or GQ. I don't feel this offers enough.
court of grace- because those flyers go really well with moat- and this deck can lock oppositions out of attacks forever, meaning that once monarch hits that is it, and you draw loads. Monarch is really hard for this deck to beat, in reverse, of course, unless the LT/Rack is up, in which case 3 a turn beats 1 extra anyway. The only decks running monarch are palace jailer decks, where I am very favoured, but I would be deeply sorry to see court of cunning decks start to run amok and might turn to this.

here are my latest changes/thinking
Ancient tomb/City:

I now run 2:1. I do not know if it is right, but it does not cost too much life wise on average, and I now back to running a zuran main , so I will take the extra damage over1:2

Zuran:
I run 1 main one side. Simply put I see as much if not more UR delver than blue-soup snowco piles, it is often essential for generating the scrack in that match up in particular. My last paper mtg event (Sept) had 24 player entry cap and at least two UR delver, maybe 3. With my meta also having d n t, which can also sometimes run off the vial and prevent me Taxing, I feel more comfortable with one of these. I have won many games with 3 mox and a solitary land, even if I dropped more over the course of the game.

karn GTC
I tried with two and always wanted 3. It simply beats elspeth in that last 4 cc slot, and sadly by some way. It is just so, so good, and can lock stuff out with lattice as well as providing a tool box and a half.

helm: I used to do 2 main and one side and it is pointless. Helm wins with RIP, and is ok on its own. But with karn able to nick helm from exile, 2 is enough in the 75. Lattice can also lock the game (as long as you are not screwing up and animating it with humility down so that it loses its ability), and karn into lattice wins as many as the more imediate helm.


Moat
Damn this card is soooooo good against Oko. It is so often MVP, which is odd as it used to often come out in pre-2020 days. Now there are very few matches I board it out against.

Humility
This card is not good vs Oko. Rely on it and you end up with a bunch of 3/3s. If choosing off a scrack I will prioritse karn into needle or a spyglass over this card if oko is a remote possibility ( I run a 1/1 split on the needle effects main/side). I could even get behind dropping this down to one, finding room for something else, but it does funtion with my board.

Gideon OTT
with so many quicks wins via stuff like Thassa's Oracle, these are just essential, I have settled on two. I board one out vs slower decks, they, and humility, are my only main hope vs decks trying to oracle a win. Great vs storm too, which has never been a bad match

karn wishboard

-meekstone- I am so set on this that I am going to be buying a beta one. The number of times Karn slips down and one of these along side- it is beautiful. Obviously not good vs an active Oko, but if it is an inactive Oko this card does work, especially against delvers.

juntu stakes
This card is really a junk level rare that keeps saving my arse, I tried it for specific matches as an experiment and found myself fetching it too often to be a fluke. With two humilities main deck it is really useful way more than it should be- I used to get beaten to death by 1/1s post humility every now and then, and now I don't- it does cost at 2cc, but it is urprisingly good vs d n t and infect too, both of which exist in my meta, and I have even fetched it from the karn-wish-board vs maverick to good effect. I cannot ever seeing me drop what is an incredibly bad card that perfectly plugs the gap in the deck

ghostly prison
the card I want to include maindeck as it slows the delver decks down considerably, as well as d nt, eldrazi and dredge. Sadly it never quite makes it main nowadays as it is largely dead vs almost all the chalice decks, show n tell, lands , depths and elves, all of which are in my meta.

nine lives
pure and simply there for infect and depths decks, nothing much else, they can't beat it easily if it resolves

torpor orb
-see oracle, basically, plus d n t and elves- and yes, I bring it in rather than trying to karn it as that is too late normally.

holy light
easy to cast with the sol lands, it can wrath elves, and nerf infect. It is also good vs pyromancer if the UR delver decks run them, but it is a bad call otherwise. Humility can make it powerful, but if I am needing to get a 4cc enchantment down to make it work then it should not be coming in. If I need to find a slot it is with the third one of these



I have dropped Leyline of Sancity completely, it was good against storm but I have action vs storm anyway (1 deafening silence, 1 canonist, 2 veil,2 gideon, rip, 2 Orim's even and karn's static ability) , and once upon a time you could bring it in vs Nic Fit or Burn etc. I still love the card in boards for things like white stax or whatever, but not here.


I realise my build may not be ideal for every meta, but it does have good matches vs snowko, RUG and similar oko decks. I have been at 65-70 pc win ratio in paper for a long time, admittedly hugely benefiting by knowing the composition of half the room and opponents not always having encountered the deck. I don't believe in sacreed cows- bar Tax etc.- I once dropped swords down considerably and replaced a couple with unexpectedly absent when I found them dead game after game- so I am always happy to chop things if they are failing, even if they later get restored (as, of course, swords did a couple of months later when people started playing proper mtg again).

[PirateKing]

I've been talking myself in circles about brewing a UW Parfait list using the new Court of Cunning and Court of Grace. Cunning seems like a slam dunk under Rest in Peace, no accidentally powering up Loam or something like the decks I've seen running it online. Grace plays nice with Moat and seems as good as most of the Gideon planeswalkers we were running as token fodder/beat pivots. Energy Field keeps the Monarch going.

I've got a list that's bursting at the seams, going to try and make some cuts and test out this Friday or next Wednesday. Anybody left up for a brew?

[Reeplcheep]

I've been talking myself in circles about brewing a UW Parfait list using the new Court of Cunning and Court of Grace. Cunning seems like a slam dunk under Rest in Peace, no accidentally powering up Loam or something like the decks I've seen running it online. Grace plays nice with Moat and seems as good as most of the Gideon planeswalkers we were running as token fodder/beat pivots. Energy Field keeps the Monarch going.

I've got a list that's bursting at the seams, going to try and make some cuts and test out this Friday or next Wednesday. Anybody left up for a brew?

Check out my bumbleberry pie thread. It originally started as a parfait list due the synergy between land tax and aminatou/ravens crime. The mana was a bit too crazy so I ended up going to a snow-Miracles shell instead but maybe you can get some ideas.

[aedemiel]

Anybody left up for a brew?

Well I basically dropped Parfait, as soon as Oko became a staple.
The fact that this guy deals with Mox Diamond (our acceleration) and Scroll Rack (our engine) makes it the perfect answer against us.

So, I think my question would be: How do you deal with Oko (and FIRE design in general)?

[PirateKing]

Well I basically dropped Parfait, as soon as Oko became a staple.
The fact that this guy deals with Mox Diamond (our acceleration) and Scroll Rack (our engine) makes it the perfect answer against us.

So, I think my question would be: How do you deal with Oko (and FIRE design in general)?

Really it's just the Courts.
If you can hide behind RiP/Energy Field then either will accrue both card advantage and game advantage value to death.
It's not totally bulletproof, but if they tap out 3 to Elk a Mox Diamond and we play either Court, we should be in a good spot.

Unfortunately, pretty much nobody here is on Oko. Everybody is tripping over themselves to play the decks that beat Oko, lots and lots of Rainbow Depths and Oops all Spells and BR Reanimator. So I wouldn't be able to tell you if this improves those matchups any.

[FTW]

Since about fall I've been playing around with UW RipField without the TaxRack engine.

Artifacts are bad in this meta but Enchantments are still good. Oko has a hard time interacting with enchantment-based control. Reepl's UW deck and Curses deck exploit a similar gap in the meta. Enchantments get around Oko and maindeck RiP/Leyline hates out a lot of decks, even Uro and Dreadhorde value in fair decks.

RipField totally punks Oko. You ignore a planeswalker with 15 loyalty doing a bad Garruk impersonation, making vanilla 3/3s every 2nd turn.

RipField is very good at exploiting Monarch. Court's a good plan B and draw engine here and probably warrants multiple copies. If you can set up Court and hide behind Energy Feld, you probably win.

Counterbalance is also appealing once you're in blue. ETutor can set up CB tricks.


//Lands: 20
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas

//Spells: 23
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Unexpectedly Absent
2 Force of Negation
1 Terminus

//Enchantments: 14
4 Rest in Peace
3 Energy Field
3 Counterbalance
2 Omen of the Sea
1 Detention Sphere
1 Court of Grace

//Artifacts: 2
1 Arcum's Astrolabe
1 Helm of Obedience

//Planeswalker: 1
1 Teferi, Time Raveler

//Sideboard: 15
2 Meddling Mage
2 Wear // Tear
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Terminus
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Deafening Silence
1 Pithing Needle
1 Back to Basics
1 Web of Inertia
1 Helm of Obedience


This might be too different from what you guys are trying to do. I just posted it as an example of playing around Oko decks. Both RipField and Court are strong angles to play.

[aedemiel]

LIST
I will test something similar this weekend. Expect some news.

[aedemiel]

I will test something similar this weekend. Expect some news.
Okay, I posted a little something on the Helm/RiP combo thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24691-UW-Sanctuary-(Helm-RiP-combo)&p=1090296&viewfull=1#post1090296).

[PirateKing]

Okay, now I will build Parfait.
Nothing can stop us, except for the long list of things that stopped us before and could reasonable be expected to continue to stop us in the present!
But enough talk, have at you

[aedemiel]

We can now play Mox Diamond again! Praise the Sun! Praise be!

[Cpt-Qc]

We can now play Mox Diamond again! Praise the Sun! Praise be!

That was quick /s

Finally artifacts have text again!

[Cpt-Qc]

I might not be playing paper anytime soon but I want to try those new cards. I would start with the following:

3 Scroll Rack
3 Mox Diamond
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Trinisphere
1 Zuran Orb
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Pithing Needle
4 Land Tax
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Blood Moon
1 Humility
1 Banishing Light
4 Orim's Chant
4 Path to Exile
4 Enlightened Tutor
17 Plains
2 Mountain
3 Doomskar
1 Crush the Weak

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Baneslayer Angel
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Court of Grace
1 Rest in Peace
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger

[FTW]

Looks good. Is there any value in splashing blue for Counterbalance? Now that artifacts have text, the Scroll Rack you're running morphed from Kalonian Tusker into a powerful tool to abuse CB.

[Weapon X]

My response to that is no unless you’re making blue your splash. Rack is there mainly to turn lands into cards. If you’re fiddling around with counterbalance you aren’t doing that. If you are playing blue the you get ponder/brainstorm which give you more options for cb that are better then possibly taking away a new hand.

[Tourach]

I might not be playing paper anytime soon but I want to try those new cards. I would start with the following:

3 Scroll Rack
3 Mox Diamond
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Trinisphere
1 Zuran Orb
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Pithing Needle
4 Land Tax
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Blood Moon
1 Humility
1 Banishing Light
4 Orim's Chant
4 Path to Exile
4 Enlightened Tutor
17 Plains
2 Mountain
3 Doomskar
1 Crush the Weak

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Baneslayer Angel
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Court of Grace
1 Rest in Peace
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger


I have some questions on the list. Maybe the answers are somewhere in the thread but I haven't found them.
1) Why only three Moxen? After scrolling this is the best card in my hand most of the time, isn't it? Plus it allows me to curve into Helm of Obedience even though I have set up Land Tax.
2) What is the thought behind Charbelcher? Is it just used as a kill con after the game is locked up? I don't like that it is shut off by the same cards that also shut off the other kill con (Helm): Needle/Spyglass, Karn + artifact removal. Are there any other wincons you would consider?
3) Why only one Isochron Scepter? There's 12 cmc1 instants and it seems a second copy of Scepter would be awesome.
4) Would you consider Kjeldoran Outpost an option? It allows for a land drop while keeping you behind for Land Tax.

[Weapon X]

Well since my list seems to have become the popular one...

Moxes: minimal land and diminishing returns. I used to play 4, I eventually turned one into an opal as well... after about 3 years of steady play though I found that you don’t need that extra mox. It’s really only useful on the first few turns and then loses value fast. I won’t word vomit more then that.

Charbelcher. Probably the best singleton for the deck that doubles as reusaeable removal. Can be used to stack your deck if desired and otherwise gives a “shuffle” effect. It’s biggest draw is that it can be hidden and used as a win con in game 2. Parts of rip/helm will get hated fast simply because they can affect an opponent without being used to win on the spot. Charbelcher can do a few things as well as win, but without being a focus. And as an aside I have won against an Iona on white and with less then a 10 card library on the back of this one card.

Sceptre: I’m not a fan of sceptre main, I do consider it a sideboard option. I think it’s more suited to a blue splash, no stick plan.

Outpost: the main strength of parfait is blanking cards an opponent would play. Playing non basics opens up the use of wasteland. The best play you will see is an opponent wastelanding themselves so you cannot activate a land tax which inevitably means they can’t play cards because of the other hate we pack. Bottom line, any non basic you wanted to consider playing needs a strong upside to consider playing.


Hope that helps some. I’m trying to not word vomit like I normally do over parfait.

[Cpt-Qc]

I have some questions on the list. Maybe the answers are somewhere in the thread but I haven't found them.
1) Why only three Moxen? After scrolling this is the best card in my hand most of the time, isn't it? Plus it allows me to curve into Helm of Obedience even though I have set up Land Tax.
2) What is the thought behind Charbelcher? Is it just used as a kill con after the game is locked up? I don't like that it is shut off by the same cards that also shut off the other kill con (Helm): Needle/Spyglass, Karn + artifact removal. Are there any other wincons you would consider?
3) Why only one Isochron Scepter? There's 12 cmc1 instants and it seems a second copy of Scepter would be awesome.
4) Would you consider Kjeldoran Outpost an option? It allows for a land drop while keeping you behind for Land Tax.

1)I tried 4 moxen for a while but it didn't feel great. Mana is rarely an issue with 19 basics and an opening hand with 2x moxen sucks. With 19 lands, 4 Land Tax and 3 moxen we already have enough dead draws.

2)Nothing more to say, it's plan B win and occasional removal. Although it's not very reliable for the later, it's better than a helm with nothing else.

3)3 mox + 4 etutor is already a lot of card disadvantage. I play one scepter because it's an "I-win-button" against many non-U deck as fast as T2. Coincidentally, it's also a force magnet but you really don't want to base your strategy around it. Getting it destroyed can be backbreaking and etutor is so slow that it's often better used on the spot. You never know when opponent is gonna play decay or disenchant.

4)I also tried nonbasics before (fetches) and it breaks the whole synergy with belcher (and the life loss was non negligible). This deck is very mana hungry so getting wastelanded can be the end. Consider that you might need to chant + helm + activate on the same turn. In that situation, even Daze or Pierce is a hard counter.

[drmarkb]

Hello all.
My list has not change much since I last posted (post 717), but since the removal of Oko from the environment I am able to squeeze a peacekeeper into the board. Other than that I am happy to play as you were, especially as my only games are on X mage at the moment.
I miss the old tech, and the Peacekeeper is a nice non enchantment/artifact defence against green force blowouts vs decks like rainbow depths and infect, and it also does work against elves, show and tell etc. Previously it was a 3/3 that did nothing, of course.
Other than that I am still running a small number of sol lands into 3 karn and a tiny green splash for veil/sylvan; veil is a damn near broken card and even in my paper meta of 45 % blue rather than 75, it still gets value with all the discard and decays.

I am really looking forward to paper's return, I have procured beta basics that I want to give a run out to. I feel the deck is old style, and have tried to make the printings as old as possible to suit. There is something beautiful about a Legends Land Tax and I do hope that none of you are using the wrong art.:mad: I am trying not to get too excited as there is a likely third wave, although we can hope the effects are lower due to the vaccine which has been pretty successfully rolled out in the UK.

My last and only opportunity to play in person saw me playing my regular mono black helm deck at a 24 player event last September, although I got my usual 3-1 that I get with Parfait, but when the UK opens Parfait is at the front of my mind. I do not normally play it at REL comp, after being restricted to X mage during the pandemic I think I will play it anywhere.

[drmarkb]

Really obvious, but since I am using a 3 karn list, I suspect I will find room for a recently spoiled portable hole in the board. More flexibility is just exactly what you need in an answer deck that does not combo turn 1/2. O ring is obviously better a as a main deck option but this is a wish target mini O ring that conveniently hits needles/spyglass that stop the game winning combo.

[arcavaliere]

Hello! How have folks been adjusting to new cards from MH2? Anything to watch out for?

[aedemiel]

Hello! How have folks been adjusting to new cards from MH2? Anything to watch out for?

Not too sure. Now, with MH2 (and Urza's Saga) people are packing much more artifact/enchantement hate.

[drmarkb]

Been playing around with one saga for one of my sol lands.
Have to say, I am impressed.
Saga works with land tax well, makes big men given our artifact count, and tutors for needle, mox d or zuran, which is some list. Many decks using saga bend their deck to get tutor value - retrofitter foundry, needle and bin hate being obvious. We run rip, so the last is of no value, but zuran, a card I have previously yoyo 'd on, is ideal to grab. I do not run cursed scroll very often, but it is another valid consideration.

Main issue for saga is that I run humility and moat, which don't work well with the constructs, but it is my choice to play them it not. Parfait has a chunk of manipulation, any conflicts can be overcome. With a Karn board saga makes me worry less about bringing in one and 0 drops I I otherwise leave to be Karn fetched.

I am going to add a second over maze of ith, a card I need less of nowadays. Portable hole will likely make the board soon.


I need to get better testing in- x mage is not updated and whilst paper legacy has returned, meeting up in shops to test for hours has not.

[Cpt-Qc]

I'd like to try Saga as well since it's both an enchantment and a land. It would probably be perfectly fine to play 3 even without Sol Lands, so long as you don't use it on T1.

Besides, this is a prison deck so there aren't many advantages to playing a T1 saga and locking your mana for 3 turns.




Main issue for saga is that I run humility and moat [...]

BTW, unlike dress down, Humility doesn't kill Saga tokens so it's not really a nonbo. You can always have your 1/1's trade with opponent's 1/1's (which is good for us).

Also, If Blood moon is in play, Saga also enters as a mountain without the lore abilities so you wouldn't be able to make tokens anyway. Not until moon is removed and you have waited 2-3 turns at least.

[Cpt-Qc]

3 Scroll Rack
3 Mox Diamond
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Trinisphere
1 Zuran Orb
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Portable Hole
4 Land Tax
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Blood Moon
1 Humility
1 Banishing Light
4 Orim's Chant
4 Path to Exile
4 Enlightened Tutor
15 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Urza's Saga
3 Doomskar

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Court of Grace
1 Rest in Peace
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Lightning Helix

I haven't played in so long so the board is probably really un-tuned but I really want to try this monstrosity.

[PirateKing]

Also, If Blood moon is in play, Saga also enters as a mountain without the lore abilities so you wouldn't be able to make tokens anyway. Not until moon is removed and you have waited 2-3 turns at least.

Doesn't Blood Moon kill Urza's Saga? It turns it into a Mountain with no chapter abilities but it's still a saga, and part of a saga is when it has lore counters greater than or equal to the last chapter number, it's sacrificed as part of state based effects. So Mountain has zero chapter abilities and it has zero counters, so it gets sacrificed. Or did that change?

[Reeplcheep]

Doesn't Blood Moon kill Urza's Saga? It turns it into a Mountain with no chapter abilities but it's still a saga, and part of a saga is when it has lore counters greater than or equal to the last chapter number, it's sacrificed as part of state based effects. So Mountain has zero chapter abilities and it has zero counters, so it gets sacrificed. Or did that change?

You are correct.

[Cpt-Qc]

Doesn't Blood Moon kill Urza's Saga? It turns it into a Mountain with no chapter abilities but it's still a saga, and part of a saga is when it has lore counters greater than or equal to the last chapter number, it's sacrificed as part of state based effects. So Mountain has zero chapter abilities and it has zero counters, so it gets sacrificed. Or did that change?

715.4. If the number of lore counters on a Saga permanent is greater than or equal to its final chapter number, and it isn’t the source of a chapter ability that has triggered but not yet left the stack, that Saga’s controller sacrifices it. This state-based action doesn’t use the stack.

715.2d A Saga’s final chapter number is the greatest value among chapter abilities it has. If a Saga somehow has no chapter abilities, its final chapter number is 0.

The whole Saga type card is so confusing :cry: thanks for enlightening me. I guess you can still pitch it to mox then!

So it's not all bad then... if we play moon we can kill all opposing sagas... interesting.

[drmarkb]

Well I am back playing paper, and finally got round to an updated Parfait list.
Did not have the best of evenings, probably 5% off my game, playing well at times but mulliganing like a muppet, and my pre-panemic run with the deck came to an abrupt, crashing halt.
I tried Saga, and frustratingly it was excellent, but I rarely got to play or see it as they hid- one of those night with zero die rolls going my way and saga perpetually stuck at the bottom in multiples.

I have been running Wg, with karn. Whereas Karn was awesome pre pandemic, I feel a bit more ambivalent towards him now- I mean he is still awesome, but removal has changed- a lot.
Prismatic ending is very effecttive against 1cc and 2cc, and decks just have access to that much more removal, making Karn's defensive anti critter qualities a lot less useful. Fetching a meekstone or whatever has never been so fragile. I had been devoting most of my recent time to testing and updating Pox and other mono black controlling lists, but saga just felt like an obvious fit and I thought the deck would continue to offer its usual selection of interesting lines and flexiblility.
I feel that I found a lot more of my permanents dissappearing at the wrong time than normal, and that is a reflection of Prismatic ending's soul crushing efficiency and frustratingly got blown away by slivers to boot; it was then I noticed that a lot f the evening I had been mentally wishing for wraths. Many moons ago Miracles was a tough match, but post top and especially post Karn that had swung- I had >50 % vs a lot of bant/jeskai matches for the past two-three years. I certainly would not fancy the match now- game 1 they used to have a max of 2 non swords permanent removal spells-council's judgement- but now any UWx deck will pack ending -ending making that 3-4, with bant decks packing force of v in the board.
In light of this I think I will go full circle back to red splash. Moon might be a no-no with Saga (which I will say again- excellent card not just as big monster makers but the ability to fetch a needle is super powerful), but with an extra bit of sol land I can envisage Pyroblast board with Nahiri main. Generally a 4cc permanent feels a bit more safe, and despite the humility/moat/saga nonbo, I feel that with careful piloting there is milage there. Time will tell.
The other change I will make is to run a needle in the board too. Many a time I found my Karn activation not producing the control, and needle no 2 would have helped a lot..........

[Reeplcheep]

Thoughts on my Poxfait (https://twitter.com/reeplcheep/status/1436122627379060739) list?

Maybe you can run rip helm? XJcloud has been doing well with that and it means karn always get a must answer card. Obviously a bit biased as the curses guy, but helm makes karn much better against creature decks and blue control.

[Weapon X]

Quick glance from me so initial thoughts are not enough basic land and looks like it has the pox problem of being able to gain a great board state/control but doesn’t close the game. I would use leyline/helm in that case as I ran that in my basic parfait list. Big fan of nether spirit. Would probably play Gerrards verdict in some number.

[Reeplcheep]

Do you think playing 4 more basics is worth losing the flagstones/pox interaction?

Why would you play verdict over hymn?

I have found saga tokens kill relatively quickly. Do you think they aren’t reliable enough?

[Weapon X]

That’s where it gets weird. Tax is great for advantage. Flagstones kind of takes that away by shutting off tax. This becomes more of a how to win issue then. Parfait is generally the long game where pox is more the short game since traditionally pox can’t win the game when it does its thing. So I think if you go helm flagstones is more attractive. It gives a fast win con that plays into pox and then you don’t need all the stall/control that’s usually in parfait. In fact it could be a reason for dark ritual. I hope I explained that at least ok.

I would play verdict because you can use it on yourself to gain life. We play tax so it gives another use for potential lands in hand.

I haven’t been on the saga plan so I don’t really have an opinion there. I really like rip/leyline helm because it wins the turn it’s played and both pieces are generally good outside the combo. Also from the parfait side you want to blank as much of your opponents deck as possible. Most decks have non basic hate, so we play basics and shut off their cards. We don’t play creatures so they have no use for removal. Etc. It honestly feels great to have an opponent wasteland their own duals so you can’t tax.

[FTW]

I've only played Tax/Rack in UW, without the Pox plan. RiP + Helm was the wincon, but having access to Energy Field in blue really rewards that direction. Here it would just be a 2-card combo without other synergy, so I could see why you'd skip that in favor of Pox control.


Thoughts on my Poxfait (https://twitter.com/reeplcheep/status/1436122627379060739) list?

Maybe you can run rip helm? XJcloud has been doing well with that and it means karn always get a must answer card. Obviously a bit biased as the curses guy, but helm makes karn much better against creature decks and blue control.

-1 Flagstones, +1 Plains (the 3rd and 4th Flagstones are much worse when you might have 0 Plains left in the deck, from previous Flagstones or Land Tax)

Crucible of Worlds maindeck seems very good. You're clearly leaning on Saga as the wincon. Maindeck Crucible helps ensure that inevitability. It also means you can replay Flagstones for the synergy you want, without having to run a deck with 4 Flagstones 2 Plains. And it gives you payoff for all those lands you're discarding. 4th Raven's Crime could be the cut.

If you do go with RiP + Helm as the wincon, then Karn is good and you can hide Crucible in the Karnboard. But RiP + Helm + Karn takes up a lot of space so the whole deck would look very different. Can't picture it yet if you still keep the Pox angle.

Edit: Thinking about this more, there's more anti-synergy playing 4x Land Tax with 28 Lands. Land Tax might have no text until later in the game. Then you might only get 2 uses before you run out of basics (no Scroll Rack to put them back and draw real cards). Redundant copies of Land Tax seem dead. Turn 1 Land Tax also seems bad when you want to be playing out Wastelands and Sagas. Then there's also the 4x ETutor in the SB, taking up space to have the toolbox.
What if you ran ETutor maindeck and cut down Land Tax to 2 copies? Then you can play a 1-of Crucible maindeck and easily find it. That also frees up SB space while keeping the toolbox.

[drmarkb]

Thoughts on my Poxfait (https://twitter.com/reeplcheep/status/1436122627379060739) list?

Maybe you can run rip helm? XJcloud has been doing well with that and it means karn always get a must answer card. Obviously a bit biased as the curses guy, but helm makes karn much better against creature decks and blue control.

Sorry for the late reply, not sure if you are replying to me or someone else, I do indeed run rip helm, one side for Karn, one main and 4 RIP. RIP is strong.
I have been fiddling with red,and a slightly increased land count, and I think I will have a better bant match now.

Nahri does offer the ability to fetch an artifact (i.e. helm), which makes it put pressure on if rip is down wheras Karn gives them time to see it coming, Nahri does not...